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2014-04-01T00:10:52Z names: ccl-logbot sdegutis vivalaradio askatasuna DataLinkDroid zRecursive innertracks JuanitoJons nisstyre drewc drmeister Jayk97 eudoxia Ethan- phadthai snits Sgeo joast bocaneri keen__ diadara_ zajn ndrei eee-blt tessier_ duggiefresh ehaliewicz robot-beethoven seangrove keppy wokko oleo tajjada chameco wgreenhouse harovali bjorkintosh jxv nug700 [SLB] ahungry_ joneshf-work araujo nightshade427 Patzy redline6561 derrida zbigniew TheMoonMaster Bicyclidine
2014-04-01T00:10:52Z names: Zomgbot67 Evanescence ASau urandom_1 Jesin mc40 DGASAU TristamWrk matko hlavaty nop0x07bc waa nullman bgs100 ebrasca REPLeffect mindCrime JuanDaugherty varjag_ yrk yuuhi` nyef PuffTheMagic sfa sandbender1512 gigetoo asedeno lduros harish_ billitch amadsen nialo_t jdz sykopomp DrCode _schulte_ kobain doomlord_ Kneferilis Karl_Dscc wilfredh MoALTz Adlai djinni` luis nicdev frkout mtd l_a_m Amaan draculus MrWoohoo theos mhd tomaw epsylon iwilcox mood Ober
2014-04-01T00:10:52Z names: cmbntr_ _death cods acieroid gabot dim p_l|backup karbak Tordek nitro_idiot eak felipe farhaven ski johs clog sjl newcup Neptu peccu3 Zhivago eMBee brucem spacebat hypno__ froggey jsnell_ antoszka andyo copec schoppenhauer quasisane Yamazaki-kun ec White_Flame tychoish z0d ZombieChicken Zag loke_ Blkt AeroNotix daimrod pchrist dlowe K1rk aerique kbtr_ mal_ benny specbot minion fnordbert joga aoh Subfusc ar srcerer foom milosn PuercoPop misv gluegadget
2014-04-01T00:10:52Z names: davorb victor_lowther _tca clop2 gensym InvalidCo splittist ggherdov_ ryANALankarason cdidd sytse jayne Posterdati funnel nightfly guaqua` clop bhyde drdo q3k hugoduncan erry gf3 shifty lupine ered eigenlicht sveit Adeon madnificent v0|d``` ivan\ dan64 reb palter eagleflo Anarch BlastHardcheese wormphlegm hpd samebchase yauz sigjuice musicalchair vhost- faheem ``Erik kyl tvaalen adsisco yeltzooo ft ineiros nialo` enn ecraven setheus sid_cypher Borbus Bike
2014-04-01T00:10:52Z names: ianmcorvidae justinmcp_ felideon j_king igorw ozzloy_ flip214 oGMo smull d3f Kabaka_ Colleen mksan sklr saarin xristos quackv4 vert2 pok_ H4ns naryl Nshag freiksenet nuba easye pjb Watcher7 Munksgaard @fe[nl]ix ircbrowse galdor leoc bobbysmith007 gko zymurgy Krystof oconnore MightyJoe Jubb Mathieu Kruppe d4gg4d___ cmpitg ConstantineXVI |3b| sbryant sshirokov cpt_nemo ramus pillton karupanerura tali713 cibs staykov otwieracz killmaster adhoc _8680_ BrianRice
2014-04-01T00:10:52Z names: Tristam axion aLmostHumAn emma WeirdEnthusiast spacefrogg Odin- dRbiG Mandus ferada mathrick_ MinnowTaur alexherbo2 lemoinem chirpsalot yano rvirding tkd cantstanya sauerkrause _5kg Praise wchun dstolfa loke Fullma jackdaniel ktx tbarletz w|t qiemem ahungry joshe ruzu hzp bege Xach aftershave sgray10 SHODAN Fade kbc Codynyx Quadrescence brandonz McMAGIC--Copy abbe Khisanth hyoyoung_home fikusz jaimef mikaelj JPeterson ck_ sellout karswell rvchangue bjz
2014-04-01T00:10:52Z names: rtoym Tenkujin ThePhoeron codeburg Oddity dfox |nix|``` blackwol` billstclair hugod Natch nydel_ finnrobi_ p_l kirin` j0ni GuilOoo aeth jasom theBlackDragon AntiSpamMeta __class__ __main__ fmu jdoles yroeht2 arbscht cmatei housel cross scharan cyphase Vutral zxq9 dmiles_afk prxq
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2014-04-01T00:19:42Z names: ccl-logbot Vivitron vivalaradio rvchangue sdegutis DataLinkDroid zRecursive innertracks JuanitoJons nisstyre drewc drmeister Jayk97 eudoxia Ethan- phadthai snits Sgeo joast bocaneri keen__ diadara_ zajn ndrei eee-blt tessier_ duggiefresh ehaliewicz robot-beethoven seangrove keppy wokko oleo tajjada chameco wgreenhouse harovali bjorkintosh jxv nug700 [SLB] ahungry_ joneshf-work araujo nightshade427 Patzy redline6561 derrida zbigniew TheMoonMaster
2014-04-01T00:19:42Z names: Bicyclidine Zomgbot67 Evanescence ASau urandom_1 Jesin mc40 DGASAU TristamWrk matko hlavaty nop0x07bc waa nullman bgs100 ebrasca REPLeffect mindCrime JuanDaugherty varjag_ yrk yuuhi` nyef PuffTheMagic sfa sandbender1512 gigetoo asedeno harish_ billitch amadsen nialo_t jdz sykopomp DrCode _schulte_ kobain doomlord_ Kneferilis Karl_Dscc wilfredh MoALTz Adlai djinni` luis nicdev frkout mtd l_a_m Amaan draculus MrWoohoo theos mhd prxq dmiles_afk zxq9 Vutral
2014-04-01T00:19:42Z names: cyphase scharan cross housel cmatei arbscht yroeht2 jdoles fmu __main__ __class__ AntiSpamMeta theBlackDragon jasom aeth GuilOoo j0ni kirin` p_l finnrobi_ nydel_ Natch hugod billstclair blackwol` |nix|``` dfox Oddity codeburg ThePhoeron Tenkujin rtoym bjz karswell sellout ck_ JPeterson mikaelj jaimef fikusz hyoyoung_home Khisanth abbe McMAGIC--Copy brandonz Quadrescence Codynyx kbc Fade SHODAN sgray10 aftershave Xach bege hzp ruzu joshe ahungry qiemem w|t
2014-04-01T00:19:42Z names: tbarletz ktx jackdaniel Fullma loke dstolfa wchun Praise _5kg sauerkrause cantstanya tkd rvirding yano chirpsalot lemoinem alexherbo2 MinnowTaur mathrick_ ferada Mandus dRbiG Odin- spacefrogg WeirdEnthusiast emma aLmostHumAn axion Tristam BrianRice _8680_ adhoc killmaster otwieracz staykov cibs tali713 karupanerura pillton ramus cpt_nemo sshirokov sbryant |3b| ConstantineXVI cmpitg d4gg4d___ Kruppe Mathieu Jubb MightyJoe oconnore Krystof zymurgy gko
2014-04-01T00:19:42Z names: bobbysmith007 leoc galdor ircbrowse @fe[nl]ix Munksgaard Watcher7 pjb easye nuba freiksenet Nshag naryl H4ns pok_ vert2 quackv4 xristos saarin sklr mksan Colleen Kabaka_ d3f smull oGMo flip214 ozzloy_ igorw j_king felideon justinmcp_ ianmcorvidae Bike Borbus sid_cypher setheus ecraven enn nialo` ineiros ft yeltzooo adsisco tvaalen kyl ``Erik faheem vhost- musicalchair sigjuice yauz samebchase hpd wormphlegm BlastHardcheese Anarch eagleflo palter reb dan64
2014-04-01T00:19:42Z names: ivan\ v0|d``` madnificent Adeon sveit eigenlicht ered lupine shifty gf3 erry hugoduncan q3k drdo bhyde clop guaqua` nightfly funnel Posterdati jayne sytse cdidd ryANALankarason ggherdov_ splittist InvalidCo gensym clop2 _tca victor_lowther davorb gluegadget misv PuercoPop milosn foom srcerer ar Subfusc aoh joga fnordbert minion specbot benny mal_ kbtr_ aerique K1rk dlowe pchrist daimrod AeroNotix Blkt loke_ Zag ZombieChicken z0d tychoish White_Flame ec
2014-04-01T00:19:42Z names: Yamazaki-kun quasisane schoppenhauer copec tomaw epsylon iwilcox mood Ober cmbntr_ _death cods acieroid gabot dim p_l|backup karbak Tordek nitro_idiot eak felipe farhaven ski johs clog sjl newcup Neptu peccu3 Zhivago eMBee brucem spacebat hypno__ froggey jsnell_ antoszka andyo
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2014-04-01T00:25:04Z names: ccl-logbot vivalaradio Vivitron rvchangue sdegutis DataLinkDroid zRecursive innertracks JuanitoJons nisstyre drewc drmeister Jayk97 eudoxia Ethan- phadthai snits Sgeo joast bocaneri keen__ diadara_ zajn ndrei eee-blt tessier_ duggiefresh ehaliewicz robot-beethoven seangrove keppy wokko oleo tajjada chameco wgreenhouse harovali bjorkintosh jxv nug700 [SLB] ahungry_ joneshf-work araujo nightshade427 Patzy redline6561 derrida zbigniew TheMoonMaster
2014-04-01T00:25:04Z names: Bicyclidine Zomgbot67 Evanescence ASau urandom_1 Jesin mc40 DGASAU TristamWrk matko hlavaty nop0x07bc waa nullman bgs100 ebrasca REPLeffect mindCrime JuanDaugherty yrk yuuhi` nyef PuffTheMagic sfa sandbender1512 gigetoo asedeno harish_ billitch amadsen nialo_t jdz sykopomp DrCode _schulte_ kobain doomlord_ Kneferilis Karl_Dscc wilfredh MoALTz Adlai djinni` luis nicdev frkout mtd l_a_m Amaan draculus MrWoohoo theos mhd prxq dmiles_afk zxq9 Vutral cyphase
2014-04-01T00:25:04Z names: scharan cross housel cmatei arbscht yroeht2 jdoles fmu __main__ __class__ AntiSpamMeta theBlackDragon jasom aeth GuilOoo j0ni kirin` p_l finnrobi_ nydel_ Natch hugod billstclair blackwol` |nix|``` dfox Oddity codeburg ThePhoeron Tenkujin rtoym bjz karswell sellout ck_ JPeterson mikaelj jaimef fikusz hyoyoung_home Khisanth abbe McMAGIC--Copy brandonz Quadrescence Codynyx kbc Fade SHODAN sgray10 aftershave Xach bege hzp ruzu joshe ahungry qiemem w|t tbarletz
2014-04-01T00:25:04Z names: ktx jackdaniel Fullma loke dstolfa wchun Praise _5kg sauerkrause cantstanya tkd rvirding yano chirpsalot lemoinem alexherbo2 MinnowTaur mathrick_ ferada Mandus dRbiG Odin- spacefrogg WeirdEnthusiast emma aLmostHumAn axion Tristam BrianRice _8680_ adhoc killmaster otwieracz staykov cibs tali713 karupanerura pillton ramus cpt_nemo sshirokov sbryant |3b| ConstantineXVI cmpitg d4gg4d___ Kruppe Mathieu Jubb MightyJoe oconnore Krystof zymurgy gko bobbysmith007
2014-04-01T00:25:04Z names: leoc galdor ircbrowse @fe[nl]ix Munksgaard Watcher7 pjb easye nuba freiksenet Nshag naryl H4ns pok_ vert2 quackv4 xristos saarin sklr mksan Colleen Kabaka_ d3f smull oGMo flip214 ozzloy_ igorw j_king felideon justinmcp_ ianmcorvidae Bike Borbus sid_cypher setheus ecraven enn nialo` ineiros ft yeltzooo adsisco tvaalen kyl faheem vhost- musicalchair sigjuice yauz samebchase hpd wormphlegm BlastHardcheese Anarch ``Erik eagleflo palter reb dan64 ivan\ v0|d```
2014-04-01T00:25:04Z names: madnificent Adeon sveit eigenlicht ered lupine shifty gf3 erry hugoduncan q3k drdo bhyde clop guaqua` nightfly funnel Posterdati jayne sytse cdidd ryANALankarason ggherdov_ splittist InvalidCo gensym clop2 _tca victor_lowther davorb gluegadget misv PuercoPop milosn foom srcerer ar Subfusc aoh joga fnordbert minion specbot benny mal_ kbtr_ aerique K1rk dlowe pchrist daimrod AeroNotix Blkt loke_ Zag ZombieChicken z0d tychoish White_Flame ec Yamazaki-kun
2014-04-01T00:25:04Z names: quasisane schoppenhauer copec andyo antoszka jsnell_ froggey hypno__ spacebat brucem eMBee Zhivago peccu3 Neptu newcup sjl clog johs ski farhaven felipe eak nitro_idiot Tordek karbak p_l|backup dim gabot acieroid cods _death cmbntr_ Ober mood iwilcox epsylon tomaw
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2014-04-01T00:57:12Z zRecursive: sdegutis: what does "avoid common lisp" mean ?
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2014-04-01T01:00:30Z pjb: zRecursive: you know, they'd use brainfuck before CL.
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2014-04-01T01:00:43Z pjb: php, python, java, javascript, ruby, anything but CL.
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2014-04-01T01:02:18Z harovali: if one browses ALU User Groups, there are mainly north america and european groups, none in south america
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2014-04-01T01:03:11Z pjb: harovali: there's a number of lispers in Brasil.
2014-04-01T01:03:11Z zRecursive: pjb: i see
2014-04-01T01:03:19Z pjb: and a few all around too.
2014-04-01T01:03:58Z harovali: being CL and haskell some of the more astonishing languages in existance, one asks why on earth are people reinventing CLOS , or lisp itself in the case of XML
2014-04-01T01:04:18Z harovali: pjb: it's goos to know that
2014-04-01T01:04:21Z harovali: good
2014-04-01T01:04:43Z zRecursive: #haskell is so active !
2014-04-01T01:04:48Z harovali: smalltalk is another case of sub-usage
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2014-04-01T01:05:13Z harovali: haskell is gaining lots of attention, which is very logical
2014-04-01T01:05:22Z harovali: but it's mainly niche attention
2014-04-01T01:05:42Z zRecursive: "niche attention" ?
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2014-04-01T01:08:48Z harovali: zRecursive: I think there should exist some talks like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPiWg5jSoZI for CL
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2014-04-01T01:09:49Z harovali: zRecursive: specifig fields of endeavor ?
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2014-04-01T01:10:41Z zRecursive: too bad, i cannot visit youtube here :(
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2014-04-01T01:15:39Z names: ccl-logbot nand1 Fullma JuniorRoy sheilong zajn wheelsucker phadthai slyrus Vivitron rvchangue DataLinkDroid zRecursive innertracks JuanitoJons nisstyre drewc drmeister Jayk97 eudoxia Ethan- Sgeo joast bocaneri keen__ diadara_ ndrei eee-blt tessier_ ehaliewicz robot-beethoven seangrove keppy wokko oleo tajjada wgreenhouse harovali bjorkintosh nug700 [SLB] ahungry_ joneshf-work araujo nightshade427 Patzy redline6561 derrida zbigniew TheMoonMaster
2014-04-01T01:15:39Z names: Bicyclidine Zomgbot67 Evanescence ASau urandom_1 Jesin mc40 DGASAU TristamWrk matko hlavaty nop0x07bc waa nullman bgs100 ebrasca REPLeffect mindCrime JuanDaugherty yrk yuuhi` nyef PuffTheMagic sfa sandbender1512 gigetoo asedeno billitch amadsen nialo_t jdz sykopomp DrCode _schulte_ kobain doomlord_ Kneferilis wilfredh MoALTz Adlai djinni` luis nicdev frkout mtd l_a_m Amaan draculus MrWoohoo theos mhd prxq dmiles_afk zxq9 Vutral cyphase scharan cross housel
2014-04-01T01:15:39Z names: cmatei arbscht yroeht2 jdoles fmu __main__ __class__ AntiSpamMeta theBlackDragon jasom aeth GuilOoo j0ni kirin` p_l finnrobi_ nydel_ Natch hugod billstclair blackwol` |nix|``` dfox Oddity codeburg ThePhoeron Tenkujin rtoym bjz karswell sellout ck_ JPeterson mikaelj jaimef fikusz hyoyoung_home Khisanth abbe McMAGIC--Copy brandonz Quadrescence Codynyx kbc Fade SHODAN sgray10 aftershave Xach bege hzp ruzu joshe ahungry qiemem w|t tbarletz ktx jackdaniel loke
2014-04-01T01:15:39Z names: dstolfa wchun Praise _5kg sauerkrause cantstanya tkd rvirding yano chirpsalot lemoinem alexherbo2 MinnowTaur mathrick_ ferada Mandus dRbiG Odin- spacefrogg WeirdEnthusiast emma aLmostHumAn axion Tristam BrianRice _8680_ adhoc killmaster otwieracz staykov cibs tali713 karupanerura pillton ramus cpt_nemo sshirokov sbryant |3b| ConstantineXVI cmpitg d4gg4d___ Kruppe Mathieu Jubb MightyJoe oconnore Krystof zymurgy gko bobbysmith007 leoc galdor ircbrowse
2014-04-01T01:15:39Z names: @fe[nl]ix Munksgaard Watcher7 pjb easye nuba freiksenet Nshag naryl H4ns pok_ vert2 quackv4 xristos saarin sklr mksan Colleen Kabaka_ d3f smull oGMo flip214 ozzloy_ igorw j_king felideon justinmcp_ ianmcorvidae Bike Borbus sid_cypher setheus ecraven enn nialo` ineiros ft yeltzooo adsisco tvaalen kyl ``Erik faheem vhost- musicalchair sigjuice yauz samebchase hpd wormphlegm BlastHardcheese Anarch eagleflo palter reb dan64 ivan\ v0|d``` madnificent sveit
2014-04-01T01:15:39Z names: eigenlicht ered lupine shifty gf3 erry hugoduncan q3k drdo bhyde clop guaqua` nightfly funnel Posterdati jayne sytse cdidd ryANALankarason ggherdov_ splittist InvalidCo gensym clop2 _tca victor_lowther davorb gluegadget misv PuercoPop milosn foom srcerer ar Subfusc aoh joga fnordbert minion specbot benny mal_ kbtr_ aerique K1rk dlowe pchrist daimrod AeroNotix Blkt loke_ Zag ZombieChicken z0d tychoish White_Flame ec Yamazaki-kun quasisane schoppenhauer
2014-04-01T01:15:39Z names: copec tomaw epsylon iwilcox mood Ober cmbntr_ _death cods acieroid gabot dim p_l|backup karbak Tordek nitro_idiot eak felipe farhaven ski johs clog sjl newcup Neptu peccu3 Zhivago eMBee brucem spacebat hypno__ froggey jsnell_ antoszka andyo
2014-04-01T01:18:10Z zRecursive: argue for what ?  python3 vs cl ?
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2014-04-01T03:49:36Z leo2007: how would you translate this scheme code to cl? http://bpaste.net/show/196168
2014-04-01T03:50:09Z leo2007: I use http://bpaste.net/show/196169 but it cannot compile in sbcl
2014-04-01T03:50:32Z leo2007: cannot bind * to a local function
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2014-04-01T03:56:24Z pillton: leo2007: SBCL locks the package COMMON-LISP. This stops special forms from altering the lexical environment for any symbol in that package.
2014-04-01T03:58:04Z Bike: leo2007: may as well call emit-* directly
2014-04-01T03:59:08Z leo2007: I am reading an article in scheme. so it is not about that.
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2014-04-01T03:59:50Z leo2007: pillton: thanks. so I shadow * from CL.
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2014-04-01T04:01:01Z leo2007: Bike: the idea is not to change 'power' and 'square'.
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2014-04-01T04:04:30Z pillton: leo2007: If this is an exercise then yes, but I would follow Bike's advice.
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2014-04-01T04:04:48Z leo2007: exercise
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2014-04-01T04:05:10Z pillton is failing to get used to the ( and [ keys being swapped.
2014-04-01T04:05:57Z leo2007: I never swapped them.
2014-04-01T04:06:29Z leo2007: the advantage is too little
2014-04-01T04:06:36Z pillton: leo2007: I was making a general statement. I wasn't directing it to you.
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2014-04-01T04:06:55Z leo2007: I know. I am just curious.
2014-04-01T04:07:39Z pillton: I'm guessing that there will be little advantage too.
2014-04-01T04:09:08Z leo2007: It might be alright if all you do is lispy languages. Otherwise you have to remember which mode you are in and how should [ or ( behave. kinda extra work.
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2014-04-01T04:12:50Z pillton: leo2007: Yeah I gave up as it requires too much brain power for the task I need to do.
2014-04-01T04:13:40Z pillton: leo2007: I remember a friend of mine who switched from QWERTY to DVORAK. It took him ages and his productivity could be well approximated with 0.
2014-04-01T04:17:00Z leo2007: exactly
2014-04-01T04:19:53Z pillton: leo2007: Oh. You could also unlock the COMMON-LISP package. I don't know how to do it off the top of my head.
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2014-04-01T04:20:29Z leo2007: pillton: thanks for the note.
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2014-04-01T04:22:14Z jasom: leo2007: in general, redfining symbols in the package common-lip is not allowed by the specification
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2014-04-01T04:23:13Z jasom: leo2007: but you can shadow the symbol in another package (e.g. common-lisp-user) or just pick a different name
2014-04-01T04:24:19Z leo2007: I am in a package (of my choice) which uses :cl but cannot bind * to local functions still.
2014-04-01T04:24:49Z Bike: did you actually shadow *
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2014-04-01T04:25:07Z jasom: leo2007: that's because you imported the symbols from cl; the symbol * in your package is still the symbol cl:*
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2014-04-01T04:26:35Z leo2007: OK, I misterstood.
2014-04-01T04:26:46Z leo2007: Bike: yes, with shadow it worked.
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2014-04-01T04:29:33Z pillton: jasom: I was unaware of that. I can understand it with respect to the global environment. Stopping lexical changes seems like too much.
2014-04-01T04:30:13Z phadthai: I'm also surprised
2014-04-01T04:30:18Z Bike: it's cos of macros.
2014-04-01T04:30:44Z jasom: pillton: (flet ((* ...)) (some-macro-that-calls-*))
2014-04-01T04:30:50Z Bike: in fact it's pretty well demonstrated by leo's intent. if you could shadow * some random macro that happens to use * would get totally f'd up.
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2014-04-01T04:32:09Z jasom: pillton: well I meant some-macro-that-emits-a-call-to-*
2014-04-01T04:33:15Z jasom: pillton: http://paste.lisp.org/display/141880
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2014-04-01T04:35:32Z jasom: If you want it more lisp1-y you can change (let ((* #'emit-*)) to be (macrolet ((* (&rest args) `(emit-* ,@ args)))
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2014-04-01T04:37:18Z phadthai: without shadowing that seems to work with an old sbcl (1.0.58) I have, and with recent ecl (other than for the missing emit-* of course)
2014-04-01T04:38:12Z jasom: phadthai: you can probably (let ((* ...)) ...) but * is special, so it probably won't do what you want
2014-04-01T04:38:40Z phadthai: well yes I'm not argueing that it's good style of course :)
2014-04-01T04:38:52Z jasom: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/v__stst_.htm
2014-04-01T04:39:55Z jasom: (let ((cl:* foo)) ...) will be a dynamic binding, not a lexical.
2014-04-01T04:40:45Z pillton: Bike: Hmmm. Can't that argument be applied to any macro? I don't understand why it is unique to symbols in COMMON-LISP.
2014-04-01T04:41:24Z jasom: pillton: yes, but there are also efficiency concerns; the lock on common-lisp means compilers can freely open-code all functions in common-lisp
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2014-04-01T04:42:13Z jasom: pillton: furthermore, since cl: has a lot of exported symbols that are widely used, it's more likely that someone will accidentally reuse an exported symbol.
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2014-04-01T04:47:04Z pillton: jasom: Hmm. I'll temporarily accept the compiler argument. I don't think the later is of much concern given that it is only the lexical scope.
2014-04-01T04:47:28Z jasom: pillton: then scheme doesn't need hygenic macros...
2014-04-01T04:48:00Z pillton: jasom: I'm not familiar with hygenic macros so I can't comment.
2014-04-01T04:49:02Z jasom: pillton: I'll just say that lexically binding functions that end up being part of a macroexpansion (which doesn't expect it to be lexically bound) is a real source of bugs
2014-04-01T04:49:23Z pillton: Oh, the gensym problem.
2014-04-01T04:49:34Z jasom: pillton: no, it's the part that gensym doesn't solve
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2014-04-01T04:50:20Z jasom: gensym doesn't solve the problem for macros that want to access global variables that end up being lexically rebound at the point of expansion
2014-04-01T04:50:52Z jasom: In this case, the fdefinition is the global variable
2014-04-01T04:51:07Z jasom: (It is very rare to lexically rebind a global variable that isn't an fdefinition)
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2014-04-01T04:53:27Z jasom: pillton: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hygienic_macro <-- search for my-unless to get to the meat of the problem
2014-04-01T04:53:41Z Vivitron: jasom: one "solution" to the big readtable problem is to start with ascii only, and add in extra characters as necessary
2014-04-01T04:54:07Z jasom: Vivitron: I'm perfectly fine with 90MB overhead, so I don't have a problem
2014-04-01T04:54:16Z Vivitron: ah, nice.
2014-04-01T04:54:33Z pillton: jasom: Ok. I see. Can't say I have encountered that problem in 8 years.
2014-04-01T04:55:21Z pillton: jasom: Can't you just do (let ((fn #'my-function)) (defmacro something () `(,fn 1 2)))?
2014-04-01T04:56:41Z jasom: pillton: No, because then if you redefine my-function without also re-evaluating your defmacro, you end up calling the old version
2014-04-01T04:57:00Z jasom: so e.g. some implementations of TRACE will fail to do what is expected under that case
2014-04-01T04:57:14Z pillton: jasom: True. Nice.
2014-04-01T04:58:26Z jasom: Lot's of people way smarter than I am have thought about this problem way more than I have, and CL style packages and lisp style define-syntax are the two solutions that hve risen to the top
2014-04-01T04:58:53Z jasom: With a close third being "Damn referential transparency, full speed ahead!"
2014-04-01T04:59:35Z jasom: lot's of small lisps and sexp+macro syntax for non-lisp languages take the third approach
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2014-04-01T05:00:38Z jasom: being a lisp-2 helps a lot, since lexical binding of functions is more rare than lexical binding of variables
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2014-04-01T05:01:30Z jasom: IMO it's still nice to have the protection of packages though, since while it's a very rare bug, it is a bug that can be very hard to track down
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2014-04-01T05:06:16Z pillton: jasom: This works: http://hastebin.com/yoqumegotu
2014-04-01T05:06:40Z pillton: jasom: Not pretty.
2014-04-01T05:08:15Z jasom: no it doesn't; it has the exact same issue as your (let ((fn #'my-function)) did
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2014-04-01T05:08:50Z jasom: oh, I misread.  It has the same issue if they now instead lexically bind global-my-function
2014-04-01T05:09:05Z pillton: jasom: Ah true. Heh. Nice.
2014-04-01T05:09:38Z pillton: jasom: Don't sell yourself short. Nice catch.
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2014-04-01T05:12:01Z pillton: I love this language.
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2014-04-01T05:15:20Z pillton: jasom: The hygenic macro problem is a philosophical one isn't it? For example, a macro generates code. The meaning of that code depends on context doesn't it?
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2014-04-01T05:18:01Z jasom: pillton: It's a question of following the intent of the programer.  One reason why some don't like the scheme solution is that define-syntax doesn't let you intentionally do this
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2014-04-01T05:18:54Z jasom: pillton: A macro that can have its semantics accidentally changed in a way that neither the macro-writer nor macro-consumer intended is a Bad Thing
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2014-04-01T05:20:12Z jasom: I could write a programming language for which the standard says "+ will with a .01% probability subtract, and otherwise add"; I have now a well-defined language, but it's clearly bad for any reasonable definition of bad
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2014-04-01T05:24:50Z jasom: pjb: I think I found a bug in your reader; with *read-suppress* set to nil, it doesn't throw away a delimiting whitespace character when reading a list.  It's also possible that sbcl is doing it wrong or the spec is ambiguous though
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2014-04-01T05:25:43Z jasom: pjb: (with-input-from-string (is "(+ 1 2) ") (read is) (read-char is))  <-- that causes an EOF error at the read-char on sbcl, but returns #\Space with your reader
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2014-04-01T05:27:56Z jasom: pjb: other lisp implementations don't consume the space, so probably not an issue in your reader; sorry to bother you
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2014-04-01T05:32:43Z dim: jasom: http://p-nand-q.com/programming/languages/java2k/index.html
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2014-04-01T05:44:58Z jasom: pjb: It appears backquote is unimplemented; would you like me to implement one, or do you have it and just failed to import it?
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2014-04-01T06:06:53Z mzgcz: How to use common-lisp client to sent a num 32 bit to a c server ? (e.g. : 518)
2014-04-01T06:06:53Z mzgcz:  
2014-04-01T06:07:46Z mzgcz: and I used usocket to op socket
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2014-04-01T06:12:23Z H4ns: mzgcz: https://github.com/frodef/binary-types might help
2014-04-01T06:13:09Z H4ns: mzgcz: remember to deal with endianness properly
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2014-04-01T07:28:49Z robot-beethoven: help!  the hours of java i just put in for my "day job" have soured my attitude.  any suggestions for some good lisp-therapy?
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2014-04-01T07:31:40Z ck_: can't help you there, but I have discovered it works the other way around. I have just used eclipse for a few minutes after maybe 8 or 10 years.
2014-04-01T07:31:51Z ck_: and it makes my lisp day-job that much more enjoyable
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2014-04-01T07:36:31Z drl: What does nil nil do in this line: (read-line stream-in nil nil)
2014-04-01T07:36:46Z H4ns: specbot: read-line
2014-04-01T07:37:10Z H4ns: drl: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_lin.htm
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2014-04-01T07:43:35Z aerique: drl: note that after reading the above you can easily try it out on the REPL by doing (read-line *standard-input* A B) by supplying a CTRL-D to read-line and using different options for A and B.
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2014-04-01T07:45:49Z H4ns: aerique: easily, unless he is using slime.
2014-04-01T07:46:24Z drl: I am using slime.
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2014-04-01T07:47:56Z H4ns: drl: then you'll have to start an extra lisp from the shell if you want to try out what aerique suggested
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2014-04-01T07:50:43Z robot-beethoven: is it snobby to think the lisp ecosystem is of a vastly higher quality than the java ecosystem?
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2014-04-01T07:51:15Z H4ns: robot-beethoven: "higher quality" is not something that you'd find universal agreement on.
2014-04-01T07:51:34Z phadthai: naming them ecosystems either :)
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2014-04-01T07:54:38Z drl: The first nil controls eof-error-p, and the second nil controls eof-value. Is that right?
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2014-04-01T07:55:40Z H4ns: drl: right
2014-04-01T07:56:58Z drl: Is it good to have eof-error-p set to nil?
2014-04-01T07:57:23Z H4ns: drl: it is good if one needs it.
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2014-04-01T07:58:57Z H4ns: drl: you see, sometimes you want to have read-line return an error when the end of the file is reached, sometimes you don't.
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2014-04-01T08:00:25Z drl: H4ns: I see. Thanks. Thanks to aerique also.
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2014-04-01T08:05:43Z aerique: drl: yw, sorry for not thinking of Slime
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2014-04-01T08:22:42Z Krystof: H4ns: I got some mailman information in mail, but the links to the web mailman interface aren't working
2014-04-01T08:24:48Z Krystof: (this is only vaguely urgent because it looks like there's a valid moderation request waiting)
2014-04-01T08:25:50Z drl: I keep getting: This `cl-labels' requires `lexical-binding' to be non-nil [6 times]
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2014-04-01T08:26:16Z drl: I see Zach is having the same problem.
2014-04-01T08:26:26Z drl: Any solution yet?
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2014-04-01T08:27:48Z H4ns: Krystof:
2014-04-01T08:28:01Z H4ns: Krystof: yeah, i'm waiting for that to be fixed as well, sorry about that
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2014-04-01T08:30:15Z H4ns: Krystof: i'm trying to get it done right now, i also have a few requests waiting.
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2014-04-01T08:31:22Z H4ns: Krystof: try again, it works for me now.
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2014-04-01T08:32:38Z H4ns: hold on, not working yet
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2014-04-01T08:39:26Z Krystof: H4ns: no immediate rush; I'm in meetings for the next ∞ hours
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2014-04-01T08:40:24Z H4ns: Krystof: enjoy!
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2014-04-01T08:41:22Z H4ns: it works now, tho
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2014-04-01T09:05:55Z therik: is there a way to unmake dispatch macro character?
2014-04-01T09:08:10Z therik: I set left paren as dispatch character and all hell broke loose
2014-04-01T09:08:22Z H4ns: :D
2014-04-01T09:08:52Z therik: I was trying to make (. object method) syntax, like in clojure
2014-04-01T09:09:05Z H4ns: i'd restart the lisp
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2014-04-01T09:09:54Z therik: alright :)
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2014-04-01T09:12:53Z nightfly: wouldn't a function named . be what you want?
2014-04-01T09:13:05Z prxq: nightfly: feel free to try :-)
2014-04-01T09:13:16Z therik: nightfly: I'd have to put it in ||'s all the time
2014-04-01T09:13:51Z therik: afaik (. is unused, it just complains that there's nothing on the left side of cons cell
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2014-04-01T09:14:37Z angeloita: Ciao a tutti voi di #lisp
2014-04-01T09:14:45Z therik: I was thinking if I set #\( #\. as dispatch, then if it doesn't hit the dot, it will just unread that left paren and pass it to regular reader
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2014-04-01T09:15:44Z therik: but apparently not
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2014-04-01T09:22:26Z prxq: therik: any reason to prefer (. object method) to (method object)?
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2014-04-01T09:24:22Z therik: prxq: fun
2014-04-01T09:25:11Z prxq: that's hard to argue with.
2014-04-01T09:25:28Z Asgeir: :D
2014-04-01T09:25:31Z therik: heh
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2014-04-01T09:25:55Z prxq: therik: an idea: you can use -> instead of .
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2014-04-01T09:27:59Z mal_: or use an unicode char whose glyph looks like '.'
2014-04-01T09:29:54Z hitecnologys: mal_: that would be quite hard to type.
2014-04-01T09:30:33Z mal_: just map an editor key to it
2014-04-01T09:30:51Z hitecnologys: Nah, that's not fun at all.
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2014-04-01T11:52:08Z `JRG: hi lispers
2014-04-01T11:52:28Z `JRG: I have one question for you
2014-04-01T11:53:09Z `JRG: what's the cleanest way to pass a function object to a macro?
2014-04-01T11:53:45Z `JRG: I have a macro which basically wraps defun
2014-04-01T11:54:30Z `JRG: and I want to add as an optional argument a function that pre-processes the arguments
2014-04-01T11:54:32Z Xach: You don't pass function objects to macros, you pass source code. And the macro returns source code.
2014-04-01T11:54:41Z `JRG: I know
2014-04-01T11:54:59Z Xach: Then it is curious to me that you would use the phrase "pass a function object".
2014-04-01T11:55:15Z `JRG: this macro has exactly the same syntax of defun
2014-04-01T11:55:24Z `JRG: but I would like to do something like this:
2014-04-01T11:56:02Z `JRG: (defcommand (name :preprocess-function <the-function>) arg1 arg2 ...)
2014-04-01T11:56:18Z `JRG: legacy code uses (defcommand name args)
2014-04-01T11:57:34Z Xach: I think it may be easiest to provide the name, and then expand into something like (defun <command-name> (arg1 raw-arg2) (let ((arg1 (preprocess-function arg1)) (arg2 (preprocess-function arg2))) ,@body)))))
2014-04-01T11:57:46Z Xach: err, sans that raw- bit
2014-04-01T11:59:00Z `JRG: well the problem here is that most times I want to use anonymous functions
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2014-04-01T11:59:47Z `JRG: if I just use a symbol as preprocess-function is ugly but it works
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2014-04-01T12:11:17Z hitecnologys: `JRG: well, then you can't. Macros are expanded before any functions are defined so you may only use already defined (standard) ones or define one inside macro body.
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2014-04-01T12:11:51Z hitecnologys: `JRG: I may misunderstood your question, though.
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2014-04-01T12:12:14Z Xach: `JRG: You can use an anonymous function.
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2014-04-01T12:12:27Z Xach: ((lambda ...) arg) is a valid form
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2014-04-01T12:12:47Z Xach: You could also use (funcall ,processor arg)
2014-04-01T12:13:02Z Xach: And then note in the documentation that the position there is evaluated.
2014-04-01T12:13:24Z Xach: So many options!
2014-04-01T12:14:12Z hitecnologys: Xach: I thought he wants code to be processed by that function at macro-expansion time. Did I get it wrong?
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2014-04-01T12:14:42Z Xach: I don't know. Maybe I got it wrong.
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2014-04-01T12:20:27Z `JRG: hitecnologys: no, actually I save that function in a hash-table for later use
2014-04-01T12:20:56Z `JRG: hitecnologys: and with eval-when I can use functions inside macros
2014-04-01T12:21:18Z hitecnologys: `JRG: EVAL-WHEN is a bad thing, try avoiding it when possible.
2014-04-01T12:21:29Z hitecnologys: `JRG: and what's *exactly* that you're trying to achieve?
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2014-04-01T12:22:12Z Xach has not heard that about eval-when before
2014-04-01T12:22:55Z hitecnologys: Xach: well, I just don't like it much. EVAL-WHEN is usually a signal that I'm doing something wrong for me.
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2014-04-01T12:23:38Z `JRG: hitecnologys: I have a defcommand macro, which basically is defun plus some bells and whistles
2014-04-01T12:23:57Z `JRG: it's heavily used all around my project
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2014-04-01T12:24:33Z hitecnologys: And you want body to be put in lambda, curried and then put it hashtable, right?
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2014-04-01T12:24:51Z phadthai: uses of eval-when can be complex, but it's pretty much indispensable in some cases; it's one of the powers of lisp to have control at read, compile, load and runtime
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2014-04-01T12:25:24Z `JRG: when these functions are called at runtime, all arguments are simply strings, so they are first transformed into something more suitable (like numbers, or existing symbols... and so on)
2014-04-01T12:25:48Z hitecnologys: phadthai: correct. But that's just me, I tend to mess things up.
2014-04-01T12:25:48Z `JRG: that's not enough anymore, I need to tweak how these strings are transformed into the argument value
2014-04-01T12:26:23Z hitecnologys: `JRG: OK, that's closer to what you actually need.
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2014-04-01T12:26:58Z `JRG: it looks natural to me, from a syntactical standpoint, to add to the name of the command, as a keyword argument, a function *object*
2014-04-01T12:27:07Z Xach: I think the (defun ... (let ...)) would suffice in that case.
2014-04-01T12:27:12Z `JRG: which raises the problem that that's a macro we are talking about
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2014-04-01T12:27:31Z hitecnologys agrees with Xach
2014-04-01T12:27:56Z hitecnologys: No need for that creepy function passing stuff.
2014-04-01T12:27:56Z `JRG: Xach: the preprocess function may depend on the dynamic environment which is not yet established when the command is defined
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2014-04-01T12:28:06Z `JRG: that's why the function is saved and called at runtime
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2014-04-01T12:28:31Z Xach: Like what?
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2014-04-01T12:28:59Z hitecnologys: `JRG: you know it's a bad thing to make function call depend on global state, right?
2014-04-01T12:29:09Z Xach: hitecnologys: you are full of helpful dumb advice today
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2014-04-01T12:29:23Z hitecnologys: Xach: it's 1st of April!
2014-04-01T12:29:27Z Xach: ahh
2014-04-01T12:29:30Z hitecnologys: Xach: I can do that one day a year.
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2014-04-01T12:29:57Z hitecnologys: Sorry if I hurt someone's feelings.
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2014-04-01T12:31:10Z `JRG: hitecnologys: in this project this is a must have, since some of the arguments may be the name of variables defined earlier (this is an interpreter for a language used in our simulation environment)
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2014-04-01T12:34:29Z hitecnologys: `JRG: yeah, right. I was just joking.
2014-04-01T12:34:31Z `JRG: actually it was more a question about aesthatic... is having a syntactic sugar like this acceptable?
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2014-04-01T12:34:57Z Zhivago: Lisp is all about sugar.
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2014-04-01T12:35:11Z hitecnologys: Aha.
2014-04-01T12:35:20Z `JRG: (defcommand (print :preprocess-function #'eval-all) (&rest args) (log:info "~{~A ~}" args))
2014-04-01T12:35:58Z `JRG: (it doesn't work like this, but you get the idea)
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2014-04-01T12:37:15Z `JRG: then I could have something like: (defcommand (print-doubled :preprocess-function #'(lambda (args) (mapcar #'(lambda (x) (* 2 x)) args)) (&rest args) (log:info "~{~A ~}" args))
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2014-04-01T12:39:18Z `JRG: the problem I see here is that I'm mixing syntax with function calls
2014-04-01T12:39:38Z `JRG: that keyword argument there is typical of a function call
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2014-04-01T12:40:28Z `JRG: while the raw symbol as the first element of a s-exp looks more like a special expression
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2014-04-01T12:42:24Z hitecnologys: So, you need arguments to be processed by :preprocess-function before being passed to actual handler?
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2014-04-01T12:44:12Z `JRG: hitecnologys: actually the preprocessing is only needed when the arguments are string, the defined commands are regular functions that can be called without the preprocessing
2014-04-01T12:45:01Z hitecnologys: `JRG: ah, so iff the arguement is string then the preprocessor is used. Otherwise, the it's ignored?
2014-04-01T12:45:08Z `JRG: hitecnologys: there's a function that performs this preprocessing when the arguments are read as strings from a file, and this function uses a hash-table to retrieve the corresponding preprocessing function
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2014-04-01T12:46:06Z `JRG: hitecnologys: arguments could very well be strings, but when command are read from a file, preprocessing is used, otherwise (in lisp code) commands are used just like functions
2014-04-01T12:47:03Z `JRG: it's nothing really fancy, commands are both used from lisp and from an external language
2014-04-01T12:47:11Z `JRG: where a string could be used to name an object
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2014-04-01T12:47:24Z `JRG: while the lisp command (which is a function) accepts the object itself
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2014-04-01T12:48:08Z hitecnologys: Err... I'm not sure anymore that I get the whole idea.
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2014-04-01T12:48:24Z `JRG: hitecnologys: I guess you don't need to
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2014-04-01T12:50:36Z `JRG: anyway, mixing code and data as in the above example is ugly as h*ll, I think I'll stop and find a more elegant solution...
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2014-04-01T13:11:27Z `JRG: ok found a somewhat acceptable solution
2014-04-01T13:11:54Z `JRG: if preprocess-function is an atom, I save (symbol-function preprocess-function) into the hash table
2014-04-01T13:12:08Z `JRG: otherwise I save (compile nil preprocess-function)
2014-04-01T13:12:26Z `JRG: that way I can use (lambda (args) ...) as preprocess function
2014-04-01T13:13:02Z `JRG: what d'ya think?
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2014-04-01T13:21:48Z Xach: What is the hash table for?
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2014-04-01T13:32:59Z `JRG: when preprocessing is needed it is used to retrieve the preprocessing function based on the name of the function
2014-04-01T13:33:29Z Xach: Could you put the function directly into the expansion instead?
2014-04-01T13:33:50Z `JRG: preprocessing is not needed when the function is used from lisp
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2014-04-01T13:34:26Z `JRG: these commands are available both from lisp and from a dsl
2014-04-01T13:34:27Z Xach: That doesn't directly affect the question.
2014-04-01T13:35:05Z `JRG: I don't know if pre-processing is needed from the function body
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2014-04-01T13:35:19Z `JRG: unless I want to use some dynamic binding for that
2014-04-01T13:35:25Z `JRG: which I could
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2014-04-01T13:36:22Z Xach: Does defcommand define a version to be used from lisp and a dsl version that calls the lisp one?
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2014-04-01T13:36:34Z `JRG: ah, no, I want the pre-processing to be performed when the dsl code is compiled
2014-04-01T13:36:42Z `JRG: nope there's just the lisp version
2014-04-01T13:36:48Z Xach: Oh, I see.
2014-04-01T13:36:55Z `JRG: that's why when the dsl code is compiled the preprocessing function is called
2014-04-01T13:37:14Z `JRG: and a call to the lisp function applied to the preprocessed arguments is created
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2014-04-01T13:38:06Z `JRG: then all this code is compiled into one function, which is executed, and here I have some perfomance constraints, which prevents me from performing the preprocessing at runtime
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2014-04-01T13:40:02Z `JRG: thank you all, gotta leave now
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2014-04-01T14:12:55Z Shinmera: What amazing times we live in. https://twitter.com/RainerJoswig/status/450969928292909056
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2014-04-01T14:15:55Z Xach: truly
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2014-04-01T14:18:02Z easye: Is that only an implementation of clojure syntax, or can you also call out to Java?
2014-04-01T14:18:17Z Xach: I suspect it only works today.
2014-04-01T14:18:19Z H4ns: easye: check out your calendar, man
2014-04-01T14:19:15Z Xach: Last year around december I thought of some great idea for planet lisp april fools and today, thankfully, I can't remember what it was.
2014-04-01T14:19:29Z ck_: yes, thankfully.
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2014-04-01T14:21:05Z hitecnologys: Noooo!
2014-04-01T14:21:19Z easye: H4ns: I see a notification for an appointment, but can't find the appointment!
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2014-04-01T14:21:48Z H4ns: easye: it is the date.  anything you might find amazing today might actually not be true.
2014-04-01T14:21:54Z easye: Ah.
2014-04-01T14:22:01Z easye was gotten...
2014-04-01T14:22:19Z easye laughs.
2014-04-01T14:23:08Z Shinmera: I can't even imagine what would happen if there actually ever were something like a "clojure compat. mode".
2014-04-01T14:23:35Z Xach: total chaos
2014-04-01T14:23:43Z Shinmera: Probably, but what kind of chaos
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2014-04-01T14:26:05Z phadthai: sbcl for jvm would be less unbelievable
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2014-04-01T14:26:45Z Xach: jvm for sbcl is a beautiful reality
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2014-04-01T15:42:19Z jasom fixed up foil to work with trivial-garbage
2014-04-01T15:42:46Z jasom: you can do java-interop just fine with that (though performance at the boundary between the two is less than stellar)
2014-04-01T15:42:48Z Xach: jasom: cool!
2014-04-01T15:43:02Z Xach: where is it?
2014-04-01T15:43:21Z jasom: I think on my github account; let me check that it has my latest fix
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2014-04-01T15:43:39Z jasom: https://github.com/jasom/foil
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2014-04-01T15:43:50Z jasom: missing the .asd file, but otherwise working
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2014-04-01T15:44:46Z Xach: that would be an actual useful clojure-ish thing for today
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2014-04-01T15:46:20Z dlowe: a little compatibility layer and you really could put clojure on sbcl
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2014-04-01T15:47:23Z jasom: https://github.com/jasom/foil/blob/master/docs/foil.md
2014-04-01T15:51:14Z jasom: Xach: http://paste.lisp.org/display/140912 <-- there it is in action
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2014-04-01T16:03:04Z Xach: see if you can get rich hickey to take the patches upstream
2014-04-01T16:03:22Z jasom: I will at some point, I suppose.  The changes are fairly minor
2014-04-01T16:03:45Z jasom: I was expecting it to take more work when I started
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2014-04-01T16:16:25Z Xach: Just joking. I don't think Rich has much CL on his mind these days.
2014-04-01T16:18:52Z Xach: But you might ask him about becoming the new maintainer
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2014-04-01T16:34:02Z jasom: How do I loop on a dotted list?
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2014-04-01T16:43:40Z Xach: jasom: loop for (element . rest) and test conspness of rest?
2014-04-01T16:43:47Z Xach thinking out loud
2014-04-01T16:43:55Z jasom: e.g. yeah
2014-04-01T16:43:58Z jasom: that's what I ended up doing
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2014-04-01T17:00:09Z jasom:   101,375,824 bytes for     1,541 simple-array-unsigned-byte-64 objects.
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2014-04-01T17:00:38Z jasom: ^^^ That's the function pointers for the read-table I think in my "make every character a macro character"
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2014-04-01T17:08:05Z jasom: On the other hand, I've now tested a couple of files, and they all compile correctly with pjb's reader wedged in using that method.
2014-04-01T17:09:12Z trebor_dki: sorry to ask, but i seem not see the tree in the woods .... (let* ((a 42) (b 'a)) (list 'b (magic-eval b))) -> (b 42) .... how can i get the value b's value is pointting to?
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2014-04-01T17:10:23Z jasom: trebor_dki: that's not possible, since eval doesn't happen in the lexical environment.
2014-04-01T17:10:49Z jasom: trebor_dki: if that were possible, it would eliminate the potential for a lot of optimizations too.
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2014-04-01T17:11:12Z trebor_dki: jasom: i know, therefore i wrote 'magic-eval' looking for a method to do so ...
2014-04-01T17:11:23Z jasom: trebor_dki: there isn't any way to do that
2014-04-01T17:11:36Z jasom: (short of re-implementing let, I suppose)
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2014-04-01T17:12:23Z jasom: you could manually open-code it as a case, perhaps
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2014-04-01T17:12:42Z jasom: (case b ('a a) (t (eval b))
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2014-04-01T17:13:12Z jasom: And you could write a macro that expanded to that for an arbitrary list of symbols
2014-04-01T17:13:25Z jasom: That might be your "magic-eval"
2014-04-01T17:14:35Z jasom: Or maybe (eval `(let ((a ,a)) b))
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2014-04-01T17:18:34Z trebor_dki: thanks jasom, i think i understand what the code does, but somehow i feel like i do not get the real idea behind it. needing rethinking.
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2014-04-01T17:19:05Z Vivitron: jasom: after playing with my custom reader for some time, my favorite feature is the digit-separator; 1_000_000 can read as 1000000
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2014-04-01T17:19:25Z jasom: Vivitron: I've got my custom reader up and running with package names as symbols instead of strings
2014-04-01T17:19:39Z Vivitron: jasom: oooh, interesting
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2014-04-01T17:20:01Z jasom: Vivitron: so you can alias a package to a symbol in another package and you get local package nicknames for free
2014-04-01T17:20:57Z jasom: I use keywords as the top-level of the heirarch so :common-lisp is the name of the "COMMON-LISP" package
2014-04-01T17:21:58Z jasom: so :cl:cons to get to what would normally be cl:cons and cl:cons gets you to cons in whatever package is aliased to the symbol cl in your package
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2014-04-01T17:23:07Z Vivitron: jasom: does it always default, or utils:alex:compose could be alexandria:compose, if alexandria is given utils:alex as a nickname?
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2014-04-01T17:24:15Z jasom: Vivitron: I'm not sure what the question is; if the legacy name is "FOO" then in my system you can get to it as :FOO, but you can also arbitrarily add aliases (which aren't tracked like package nicknames) from any symbol to the package
2014-04-01T17:25:15Z jasom: It does delete all aliases if you delete the package though; I'd have liked it to not work that way, but the spec doesn't let you have unnamed packages as-is, so I'd have to write a completely new package system to handle that, which would also break compatibility with existing code.
2014-04-01T17:25:16Z dlowe: jasom: that's an interesting idea
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2014-04-01T17:26:17Z jasom: dlowe: I stumbled upon it when someone was ranting about the package system, and it was mentioned that we already solved the problem of a global namespace for symbols
2014-04-01T17:27:10Z Vivitron: jasom: I like it. When you mentioned symbols as package names I had imagined that terrible syntax with multiple sets of : instead of useing *package* to resolve the initial symbol
2014-04-01T17:27:14Z jasom: one somewhat funny artifact of my choice of keywords for the top-level namespace is that :keyword:keyword:keyword:keyword:cl:cons is the same as :cl:cons
2014-04-01T17:27:21Z dlowe: are you evaling the package symbol or getting the symbol-value?
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2014-04-01T17:29:02Z jasom: foo:bar looksup "foo" in *package*, and if it resolves to a keyword, it uses the package with the symbol-name of the keyword, otherwise it uses the package that is aliased to the symbol it finds.  Arbitrary nesting of : is allowed, and :: is needed to get to unexported symbols as normal
2014-04-01T17:31:17Z dlowe: .. I think I would just have to look at it.
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2014-04-01T17:58:24Z therik: jasom: what do you mean by arbitrary nesting of : ?
2014-04-01T17:58:45Z therik: like you can do package:sub-package:sub-sub-package:my-awesomely-deep-symbol ?
2014-04-01T17:59:06Z oGMo: or you could just do foo.bar.baz:my-symbol
2014-04-01T17:59:20Z therik: I thought I read somewhere that packages are flat one-level
2014-04-01T17:59:20Z jasom: therik: yes like that
2014-04-01T17:59:36Z jasom: therik: I made a custom reader to fix  that
2014-04-01T17:59:37Z therik: so how do you define package inside package?
2014-04-01T17:59:49Z oGMo: "fix"
2014-04-01T17:59:56Z therik: ah it's just your fix
2014-04-01T17:59:56Z jasom: oGMo: and then how do you do baz:my-symbol when in the package foo.bar?
2014-04-01T18:00:23Z therik: oGMo: what's wrong with that?
2014-04-01T18:00:25Z Shinmera: I wouldn't consider the flat structure broken...
2014-04-01T18:00:31Z oGMo: the only real necessary fix is package-local nicknames, and there are things for that
2014-04-01T18:00:56Z Odin-: therik: That it's debatable whether a change is needed or not.
2014-04-01T18:00:59Z oGMo: because then you _can_ just do "import foo.bar.baz as baz"
2014-04-01T18:01:03Z jasom: oGMo: well I'm trying something different, if you don't like it, feel free to ignore me
2014-04-01T18:01:09Z Shinmera: Shadowing nicknames would've been nice to have in the standard defpackage.
2014-04-01T18:01:30Z Vivitron: oGMo: jasom's solution can do that too
2014-04-01T18:01:38Z oGMo: Vivitron: yes but it's also unnecessary
2014-04-01T18:01:52Z dlowe: jasom: I applaud your experimentation, even if it doesn't work out
2014-04-01T18:02:10Z oGMo: if you're going to add reader features, you might as well add the one simple one that lets you do all of the above
2014-04-01T18:02:19Z oGMo: but, yes
2014-04-01T18:02:27Z oGMo: experimentation is good
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2014-04-01T18:10:14Z jasom: dlowe: http://paste.lisp.org/+31H8 <-- simple example with yason and cl-json
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2014-04-01T18:10:47Z jasom: I need to add an option to defpackage that does something like use-package-as to get rid of the ugly eval-when
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2014-04-01T18:13:44Z therik: jasom: how do you define nested packages?
2014-04-01T18:13:47Z jasom: I agree that for practicality file- or package- local nicknames are the easier way to get this, but the simple change of symbols instead of strings as package names gives you nested namespaces for free, which I find interesting
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2014-04-01T18:13:56Z therik: (defpackage :cl:nested:package) ?
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2014-04-01T18:15:01Z jasom: therik: currently you can't (and in any event, the current implementation requires the package to have a global name anyway since it's layered on top of the existing CL system) but that is the idea
2014-04-01T18:15:21Z jasom: though you probably shoudlnt' put it in the :cl namespace
2014-04-01T18:15:31Z therik: sure, that was an example
2014-04-01T18:15:58Z jasom: therik: this is 100% experimental, and likely won't be used for anything serious (If that wasn't clear already)
2014-04-01T18:16:29Z therik: I was thinking about something similar last days or weeks, but my cl knowledge is infantile
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2014-04-01T18:17:03Z jasom: But it's 200 lines of code to do what I have so far, and it includes shadowed versions of all of the functions that take a package designator
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2014-04-01T18:18:27Z jasom: and about a third of that 200 is patching up pjb's reader to work as the CL reader.
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2014-04-01T18:22:49Z therik: what's pjb's reader?
2014-04-01T18:23:08Z jasom: therik: pjb wrote a complete implementation of the common-lisp reader in common-lisp
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2014-04-01T18:23:18Z jasom: that's what I use to change the way symbols are interned
2014-04-01T18:24:07Z therik: what's wrong with default readers?
2014-04-01T18:24:45Z H4ns: therik: nothing, except that each implementation has its own.
2014-04-01T18:24:59Z therik: ah
2014-04-01T18:25:12Z H4ns: there's one thing wrong with pjb's reader, though.  it is agpl licensed and thus won't see much use.
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2014-04-01T18:26:21Z Vivitron: therik: there isn't much room for customizing the symbol tokenization process; so if you want to do something like changing how packages are resolved you mostly have to rewrite that part of the reader
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2014-04-01T18:51:41Z ehu: jasom: why would you write a java-interop library if you can get java interop on abcl?
2014-04-01T18:52:53Z jasom: ehu: don't ask me, I didn't write it
2014-04-01T18:52:59Z jasom: Also it was written in 2005
2014-04-01T18:53:20Z jasom: I'm not sure that abcl was available (and if it was, it may not have been very mature)
2014-04-01T18:53:25Z pjb: jasom: backquote seems to be implemented to me: (COM.INFORMATIMAGO.COMMON-LISP.LISP-READER.READER:read-from-string "`(a ,b ,@c d)") --> (com.informatimago.common-lisp.lisp-reader.reader::backquote (a (com.informatimago.common-lisp.lisp-reader.reader::unquote b) (com.informatimago.common-lisp.lisp-reader.reader::splice @c) d))
2014-04-01T18:53:43Z Xach: ehu: rich hickey wrote it before he moved on to make clojure instead
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2014-04-01T18:59:31Z pjb: therik: (defmacro \. (o m &rest a) `(,m ,o ,@a))  (\. object method args)
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2014-04-01T19:01:01Z pjb: therik: otherwise, (set-macro-character #\( *original-left-paren-macro-character* nil *botched-readtable*)) but to read that you'll probably need the original left paren macro character in place… (which might be possible from another thread, slime, etc).
2014-04-01T19:01:46Z jasom: pjb: com.informatimago.common-lisp.lisp-reader.reader::backquote is undefined
2014-04-01T19:02:48Z pjb: It's just a symbol.
2014-04-01T19:03:06Z jasom: so I need to implement it for it to be read correctly
2014-04-01T19:03:11Z pjb: You can't evaluate it, because symbols can be read as anything.
2014-04-01T19:03:32Z pjb: Yes, depending on how you read the symbols, and what evaluation environment you provide to evaluate it.
2014-04-01T19:03:51Z jasom: well anyway I implemented the backquote algorithm as mentioned in the clhs
2014-04-01T19:04:09Z pjb: Good.
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2014-04-01T19:05:32Z jasom: which makes your example read in as: (APPEND (LIST 'A) (LIST B) C (LIST 'D))
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2014-04-01T19:23:44Z therik: pjb: thanks, it was just morning play though
2014-04-01T19:24:39Z therik: I'll try again soon, but I need to understand the reader better
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2014-04-01T19:29:34Z therik: jasom: do you have sources for your custom packaging somewhere online?
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2014-04-01T22:06:16Z LiamH: Does anybody know what's happening with the cl.net mailing lists? I'm getting emails saying that there's an email awaiting moderator approval, but when I click on the link, what I thought was my moderator pw doesn't work.
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2014-04-01T23:17:08Z names: gigetoo [1]JPeterson yuuhi`` jdz cmbntr ivan4th killerboy [SLB] yrk CrazyWoods zeroish edgar-rft Harag hugod tensorpudding cdidd lduros wchun sandbender1512 amadsen EvW kobain danielsk olegon mksan doomlord_ draculus antoszka billitch drl endou c74d frkout mathrick theos jackdaniel adhoc prxq axion pjb phadthai rvchangue joast eee-blt tessier_ seangrove bjorkintosh ahungry_ joneshf-work araujo nightshade427 redline6561 derrida zbigniew TheMoonMaster
2014-04-01T23:17:08Z names: Evanescence mc40 DGASAU TristamWrk hlavaty nop0x07bc sfa asedeno _schulte_ Kneferilis djinni` luis nicdev mtd l_a_m Amaan dmiles_afk zxq9 Vutral scharan cross cmatei arbscht yroeht2 jdoles fmu __main__ __class__ theBlackDragon jasom aeth GuilOoo j0ni kirin` p_l finnrobi_ nydel_ billstclair blackwol` |nix|``` dfox Oddity codeburg Tenkujin rtoym bjz sellout ck_ mikaelj fikusz Khisanth abbe Quadrescence Codynyx SHODAN sgray10 Xach bege hzp ruzu joshe ahungry
2014-04-01T23:17:08Z names: qiemem w|t tbarletz ktx loke dstolfa Praise _5kg sauerkrause cantstanya tkd rvirding yano chirpsalot lemoinem alexherbo2 ferada Mandus dRbiG Odin- spacefrogg WeirdEnthusiast emma aLmostHumAn Tristam BrianRice _8680_ killmaster otwieracz staykov cibs tali713 karupanerura pillton ramus cpt_nemo sshirokov sbryant |3b| ConstantineXVI cmpitg d4gg4d___ Kruppe Mathieu Jubb MightyJoe oconnore Krystof zymurgy gko bobbysmith007 leoc galdor ircbrowse @fe[nl]ix
2014-04-01T23:17:08Z names: Watcher7 easye nuba freiksenet Nshag naryl H4ns pok_ vert2 quackv4 xristos saarin sklr Colleen Kabaka_ d3f smull oGMo flip214 ozzloy_ igorw j_king felideon justinmcp_ ianmcorvidae Bike Borbus sid_cypher setheus ecraven enn nialo` ineiros ft yeltzooo adsisco tvaalen kyl ``Erik vhost- faheem musicalchair sigjuice yauz samebchase hpd wormphlegm BlastHardcheese Anarch eagleflo palter reb dan64 ivan\ v0|d``` madnificent sveit eigenlicht ered lupine shifty gf3
2014-04-01T23:17:08Z names: erry hugoduncan q3k drdo bhyde clop guaqua` nightfly funnel Posterdati jayne sytse ryANALankarason ggherdov_ splittist InvalidCo gensym clop2 _tca victor_lowther davorb gluegadget misv PuercoPop foom srcerer ar Subfusc aoh joga fnordbert minion specbot tomaw epsylon iwilcox mood Ober _death cods acieroid gabot dim p_l|backup karbak Tordek nitro_idiot eak felipe farhaven ski johs clog sjl Neptu peccu3 Zhivago eMBee brucem spacebat froggey jsnell_ andyo
2014-04-01T23:17:08Z names: copec quasisane Yamazaki-kun ec White_Flame tychoish z0d ZombieChicken Zag loke_ Blkt AeroNotix daimrod pchrist dlowe K1rk aerique kbtr_ mal_ benny
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2014-04-01T23:26:10Z pillton: Good morning everyone.
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2014-04-01T23:50:58Z eudoxia: quick question: when are the default values of optional  parameters evaluated again?
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2014-04-01T23:52:27Z pillton: When the function is called.
2014-04-01T23:52:41Z pillton: (defun name (a &optional (b (1+ a))) (list a b))
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2014-04-01T23:52:52Z eudoxia: that's really weird
2014-04-01T23:53:00Z eudoxia: i mean, it makes perfect sense
2014-04-01T23:53:12Z pillton: perfect sense /= weird
2014-04-01T23:53:16Z eudoxia: but i'm having this bug where it seems to completely ignore the default value i'm giving it
2014-04-01T23:53:42Z eudoxia: and get this: it only happens when I load the code from Quicklisp, if I copy/paste it into the REPL it works fine
2014-04-01T23:54:20Z Denommus: eudoxia: don't you have a .fasl file that quicklisp is loading?
2014-04-01T23:54:55Z eudoxia: Denommus: i don't think so, but is there a command to clear those?
2014-04-01T23:55:04Z Denommus: rm *.fasl
2014-04-01T23:55:07Z Denommus: XD
2014-04-01T23:55:26Z eudoxia: hm, i thought they were stored in some other location, like a cache folder
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2014-04-01T23:55:54Z Denommus: eudoxia: normally they aren't, you could have been unlucky, though. I'd run a find, if I were you
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2014-04-01T23:56:23Z eudoxia: doing that now
2014-04-01T23:57:26Z eudoxia: ~/.cache/common-lisp/sbcl-1.1.15-linux-x64/home/eudoxia/code
2014-04-01T23:58:11Z pillton: What is the form for the default value?
2014-04-01T23:58:41Z eudoxia: (defun foo (a b &optional (c 1234)))
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2014-04-01T23:59:41Z pillton: Show the form that you are having a problem with. You shouldn't be having a problem with that.
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2014-04-02T00:00:02Z pillton: If you are having a problem with that then you are more likely to have issues with package management.
2014-04-02T00:00:09Z pjb: (defun foo (a b &optional (c 1234))) --> foo   (foo 1 2) --> nil; no problem.
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2014-04-02T00:01:05Z pillton: Is it something like this: http://hastebin.com/lenepuseyo
2014-04-02T00:02:04Z pillton: Hmm not sure what happened there: http://hastebin.com/bixohoqasa
2014-04-02T00:02:05Z eudoxia: i can't seem to access that
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2014-04-02T00:04:28Z eudoxia: pillton: no, it's like i call a function without giving a value to an optional parameter, and it works fine, but then i run into an error and the debugger tells me that the optional parameter in that call was set to nil, not the actual default value
2014-04-02T00:04:59Z pjb: there's nothing there. Why don't you use http://paste.lisp.org, the recommanded paste service for this channel?
2014-04-02T00:05:04Z Bike: eudoxia: might want to paste the definition and call.
2014-04-02T00:05:50Z eudoxia: anyways, i fixed it by removing the default value and adding (aif optional-param it *default-value*)
2014-04-02T00:05:57Z eudoxia: Bike: it's kind of a big library
2014-04-02T00:06:18Z Bike: you shouldn't have to use such a weird solution, though
2014-04-02T00:06:26Z Bike: (also that's just (or optional-param *default-value*)
2014-04-02T00:06:36Z eudoxia: oh
2014-04-02T00:06:38Z eudoxia: right
2014-04-02T00:06:50Z pillton: pjb: The second link is fine. My mistake.
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2014-04-02T00:10:40Z mfzap: #lisp hi lispers. is there a way to trace a slot in clos? I'd like to issue a command at the repl and then run a function and see all changes to one particular slot of all objects of a certain class
2014-04-02T00:11:46Z eudoxia: mfzap: maybe see slot-value-using-class in the MOP?
2014-04-02T00:11:47Z Bike: mfzap: you could define an :around on (setf slot-value)
2014-04-02T00:12:05Z eudoxia: that's simpler
2014-04-02T00:12:19Z Bike: eql-specialized to the given object and slot name, ofc
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2014-04-02T00:13:47Z mfzap: thanks Bike
2014-04-02T00:14:04Z mfzap: (defmethod (setf slot-value) :around (object name value)
2014-04-02T00:14:04Z mfzap: 		 (when (eq name 'state) (format t "~A changing STATE: ~A~%" object value)))
2014-04-02T00:14:11Z mfzap: I tried I get a lock error on CL
2014-04-02T00:14:53Z mfzap: oh I can ignore the lock. hmm.
2014-04-02T00:15:00Z pjb: (setf slot-value) is not necessarily a generic function.
2014-04-02T00:15:11Z pjb: Eg. in ccl, setf expands to a function call.
2014-04-02T00:15:37Z pjb: So you should just avoid using setf slot-value, and use an accessor instead, and then indeed, you can define an :around or :before method.
2014-04-02T00:16:13Z Bike: huh, you're right. weird
2014-04-02T00:16:33Z mfzap: also it didn't work
2014-04-02T00:16:39Z pjb: As for the lock error, you're forbidden to define method on standard generic functions on standard objects, but then, since (setf slot-value) is not a standard generic function…
2014-04-02T00:16:44Z mfzap: thanks pjb... was hoping there was a lower level way
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2014-04-02T00:17:08Z pjb: There's the MOP way mentionned by eudoxia.
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2014-04-02T00:18:16Z mfzap: thanks I'll play around with that too
2014-04-02T00:18:23Z Bike: mfzap: i meant for you to eql-specialize the method
2014-04-02T00:18:34Z Bike: you're not allowed to define your own :around on a method called for every single slot access
2014-04-02T00:19:02Z Bike: anyway it'll be about the same with an accessor method.
2014-04-02T00:20:02Z pjb: No, accessor methods are not standard, they're your own generic functions, you can do whatever you want.
2014-04-02T00:20:54Z mfzap: there's a lot of with-slots forms in the code I'm addressing, was hoping not to refactor that
2014-04-02T00:21:19Z pillton: pjb: Do you send stuff to paste.lisp.org from within Emacs? The XML-RPC support seems to be disabled.
2014-04-02T00:21:51Z mfzap: Bike: tried eql specializing, didn't work either. I'm on SBCL.
2014-04-02T00:22:02Z Bike: "didn't work"?
2014-04-02T00:22:31Z mfzap: (defmethod (setf slot-value) :around (object (name (eql 'state)) value)
2014-04-02T00:22:31Z mfzap: 		 (format t "~A changing ~A: ~A~%" object name value))
2014-04-02T00:23:17Z mfzap: no output... wait I may be executing this in the wrong package, although I'm not sure that matters
2014-04-02T00:24:06Z jaimef: pillton: yagist-paste :P
2014-04-02T00:24:39Z pjb: pillton: use w3m.
2014-04-02T00:25:38Z pillton: bah. I'll just use hastebin. It was my mistake before. It works fine.
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2014-04-02T00:30:02Z Bike: mfzap: pjb was right and setf slot-value is just an expander on sbcl. if you want to use slot values instead of accessors you'll need to use slot-value-using-class http://www.alu.org/mop/dictionary.html#%28setf%20slot-value-using-class%29
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2014-04-02T00:33:24Z mfzap: thanks looking into it now
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2014-04-02T00:35:12Z eudoxia: mfzap: there aren't many well-documented examples of using the MOP out there, so unless you've already used it, you might want to take a look at these:
2014-04-02T00:35:16Z eudoxia: https://github.com/marijnh/Postmodern/blob/master/postmodern/table.lisp
2014-04-02T00:35:19Z eudoxia: https://github.com/gonzojive/xml-mop/blob/master/examples/example-mop.lisp
2014-04-02T00:35:53Z Bike: one simple method isn't too hard
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2014-04-02T00:49:20Z Quadrescence: MOP will make your code blazing f@st
2014-04-02T00:49:21Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for will make your code blazing f@st.
2014-04-02T00:49:31Z Quadrescence: :)
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2014-04-02T01:25:00Z harovali1: although I could install slime, and load the contrib modules, I can't see the slime-banner
2014-04-02T01:25:26Z harovali1: It doesn't bother me , but I feel that by fixing it in my system i can learn something new
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2014-04-02T01:26:08Z harovali1: the CL-SLIME> prompt appears just below the compilation date, without any animation
2014-04-02T01:26:25Z harovali1: the slime-startup-animation is setq'ed to t
2014-04-02T01:26:33Z mfzap: ok finally got the slot value tracer working. phew. https://gist.github.com/anonymous/2a3fcb8e73d313071634
2014-04-02T01:26:42Z harovali1: any hint is welcome
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2014-04-02T04:10:32Z theos: anyone else having connection problems?
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2014-04-02T04:13:41Z pillton: No.
2014-04-02T04:14:53Z theos: :(
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2014-04-02T08:42:28Z Shinmera shivers with anxiety
2014-04-02T08:42:46Z Shinmera: Fifth of my projects submitted to quicklisp now. I really hope they aren't all garbage.
2014-04-02T08:42:57Z Shinmera: *Five
2014-04-02T08:44:18Z splittist: Shinmera: the judgment of the quicklisp community will be swift and merciless (:
2014-04-02T08:45:01Z Shinmera: splittist: I hope I won't get sentenced to work with Java again.
2014-04-02T08:47:38Z loke_: Shinmera: you'll be sentenced to work with Scheme
2014-04-02T08:48:22Z z0d: loke_: that's actually not that bad at all
2014-04-02T08:48:30Z z0d: I mean, if compared to Java
2014-04-02T08:49:39Z Shinmera: loke_: Well, I wanted to learn Scheme at some point anyway, so I'm kind alright with that.
2014-04-02T08:49:44Z Shinmera: *kinda
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2014-04-02T09:00:25Z loke_: OK, VB6
2014-04-02T09:01:01Z Shinmera: I actually worked with VB when I was around 10 years old. Didn't even like it when I didn't have any clue about things.
2014-04-02T09:01:06Z Shinmera: That said, please have mercy
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2014-04-02T09:10:39Z splittist: Shinmera: which ones are The Hot Five (R)?
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2014-04-02T09:22:34Z Shinmera: splittist: lQuery, Chirp, Piping, Verbose, Colleen
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2014-04-02T11:25:45Z Xach: Shinmera: good show
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2014-04-02T12:11:58Z dkcl: Someone here posted a link regarding how QR codes work. Could I get that link again, please?
2014-04-02T12:12:12Z dkcl: It was a few days ago
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2014-04-02T12:14:41Z ferada: dkcl: http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/lisp-2014-03.txt ?
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2014-04-02T12:17:55Z dkcl: ferada: It had to do with how QR works in general, but I didn't know where to get the logs, so thanks!
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2014-04-02T12:26:06Z Xach: dkcl: http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Reed%E2%80%93Solomon_codes_for_coders
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2014-04-02T12:28:27Z dkcl: Xach: Ah, that was it, thanks!
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2014-04-02T12:29:24Z Xach: I keep bugging stassats to make them for CL
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2014-04-02T12:30:16Z dkcl: That would be lovely indeed
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2014-04-02T12:39:16Z hitecnologys: Xach: huh, I tought I was the only one who wants QR be readable by CL. I've been sorta working on it.
2014-04-02T12:39:55Z hitecnologys: Xach: although, I did not succeed much, I've only managed to study the theory and begin writing encoder.
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2014-04-02T12:41:38Z ThePhoeron: There is also this one for encoding: https://github.com/jnjcc/cl-qrencode
2014-04-02T12:42:56Z hitecnologys: ThePhoeron: huh, I'll look into that, thanks.
2014-04-02T12:44:55Z ThePhoeron: it's not complete, but it does seem to work as expected
2014-04-02T12:45:18Z ThePhoeron: except, it doesn't create subfolders when outputting images
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2014-04-02T12:46:40Z hitecnologys: I see.
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2014-04-02T14:20:29Z splittist: Does anyone have suggestions for an introduction to two-layered neural nets with CL?
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2014-04-02T14:23:47Z JuanDaugherty suggests just look for stuff on two layered neural nets
2014-04-02T14:25:37Z ThePhoeron: splittist: Artificial Intelligence: A Modern Approach covers them
2014-04-02T14:25:56Z ThePhoeron: section 18.7
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2014-04-02T14:28:09Z splittist: ThePhoeron: thanks.
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2014-04-02T14:30:36Z ThePhoeron: splittist: and this is the Lisp source code example: http://aima.cs.berkeley.edu/lisp/learning/algorithms/multilayer.lisp
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2014-04-02T15:26:42Z hlavaty: comes the maintainer of ironclad (Nathan Froyd?) sometimes hier?
2014-04-02T15:27:46Z theos smiles
2014-04-02T15:28:05Z hlavaty: :-D here
2014-04-02T15:28:20Z hlavaty: if that made you smile :-D
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2014-04-02T15:31:31Z hlavaty: well actually the whole grammar was strange :-{
2014-04-02T15:31:40Z Xach: hlavaty: not any more
2014-04-02T15:32:05Z hlavaty: Xach: is he still ironclad maintainer?
2014-04-02T15:32:16Z Xach: yes.
2014-04-02T15:32:23Z hlavaty: ok thank you
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2014-04-02T16:21:15Z jasom: therik: I don't have it up yet; I will clean it up and post it to my github account later this week, most likely.
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2014-04-02T16:33:29Z jasom: hlavaty: that was the most germanic english sentence I've seen in a while
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2014-04-02T16:36:18Z hlavaty: jasom: yeah, i'm neither english nor german speaker so if i switch languages too fast it gets confusing :-)
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2014-04-02T16:37:04Z jasom: I drop german words into my spanish all the time (I'm only an english speaker) so I understand
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2014-04-02T16:37:47Z hlavaty: thanks :-D
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2014-04-02T17:28:43Z axion: any pointers for implementing a very simple fifo queue where i can push onto the back and pop off of the front?
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2014-04-02T17:30:49Z H4ns: axion: do you really want to implement one yourself?
2014-04-02T17:31:00Z bobbysmith007: axion: you could keep a reference to the head and tail of a list inside a cons cell, but my guess would be there is library available if you are not just trying to learn
2014-04-02T17:31:01Z ggole: Maintain a pair of the first and last cells in the queue
2014-04-02T17:31:10Z ggole: But yeah, library.
2014-04-02T17:32:01Z H4ns: jpl-queues seems to be readily available in quicklisp
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2014-04-02T17:32:14Z H4ns: axion: but check out http://www.cliki.net/data%20structure
2014-04-02T17:32:22Z axion: ok, i just need one for a very trivial logging function that pushes messages onto a queue and spits them out on a timer
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2014-04-02T17:34:24Z ggole: Pushes them all out at the same time?
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2014-04-02T17:35:10Z therik: jasom: cool, looking forward...
2014-04-02T17:35:48Z axion: yes, well whatever's in at the time the timer expires. currently it is just using push/pop to show them backwards. was never a high priority as the messages aren't related and the timer is relatively short for it to matter much, but i'd like it to be more correct
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2014-04-02T17:36:59Z axion: actually, no. the list is used by many timers of different lengths.
2014-04-02T17:37:13Z axion: its been a while since i looked at it heh
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2014-04-02T17:37:28Z ggole: If the entire contents goes at once when a timer fires, you can just use a growable vector
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2014-04-02T17:38:22Z ggole: Timers of different lengths suggests something other than a queue (priority queue, hashtable)
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2014-04-02T18:03:51Z jasom_: If I have a project, and I want to include a system to load some example code, how do I set that up so that asdf can find the example system as well in a typical configuration?
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2014-04-02T18:04:41Z H4ns: jasom: a separate .asd file will do just fine
2014-04-02T18:05:42Z H4ns: jasom: that is actually preferable to putting the example system into the main .asd file because users will then be able to load the example system and have the main system be loaded automatically (if example depends on main, of course)
2014-04-02T18:06:19Z Xach: It would be good to give it a distinctive name, instead of "example.asd" or "test.asd" or something
2014-04-02T18:06:34Z Xach: myproject-example.asd would be distinctive
2014-04-02T18:07:30Z jasom: I did that
2014-04-02T18:07:34Z Xach: there you go
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2014-04-02T18:07:48Z jasom: and I completely broke my original package by accidentally copying over the package.lisp file :(
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2014-04-02T18:08:06Z Xach: eek
2014-04-02T18:08:35Z jasom: It was only 200 lines long
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2014-04-02T18:23:30Z jasom: fixed it and added it to source-control
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2014-04-02T18:29:51Z fe[nl]ix: jasom: you can use the myproject/example idiom supported by recent ASDFs
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2014-04-03T05:10:38Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2014-04-03T05:12:21Z beach: What do #lisp participants thing this: (loop for x = (print 'hi) repeat (progn (print 'ho) 2)) should print?
2014-04-03T05:13:49Z Bike: hi ho hi hi? seems like something shiver would complain about
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2014-04-03T05:14:37Z beach: Bike: I think you are right.  SBCL prints ho hi hi hi.
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2014-04-03T05:15:04Z beach: Next question: In LOOP, a simple-type-spec can be fixnum | float | t | nil.  What does it mean when it is nil?
2014-04-03T05:15:23Z Bike: clhs 6.1.1.6
2014-04-03T05:15:23Z specbot: Order of Execution: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/06_aaf.htm
2014-04-03T05:15:33Z Bike: fuckin arcane that is
2014-04-03T05:16:07Z PuercoPop: won't the t overlap with the nil?
2014-04-03T05:16:28Z beach: Bike: Reading that section, did you see the answer to my question, and if so what did you conclude?
2014-04-03T05:16:39Z beach: PuercoPop: "overlap"?
2014-04-03T05:16:58Z Bike: i think it's just as i said, the variable is initialized first
2014-04-03T05:17:13Z beach: Bike: OK, then I still agree with you. :)
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2014-04-03T05:17:35Z Bike: well, you don't even need that really, it says it goes in the order in the source unless there's an exception, and there's not
2014-04-03T05:17:42Z Bike: i hope there isn't code relying on this though.
2014-04-03T05:18:10Z beach: Sure.  Still, the behavior of SBCL seems to be non conforming.
2014-04-03T05:18:36Z PuercoPop: beach: I mean that the partition is not mutually exclusive (idk if I am using the proper terms.)
2014-04-03T05:18:48Z Bike: yeah. i think sbcl used to parse clauses in a nonconforming way too. such is loop.
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2014-04-03T05:19:25Z beach: PuercoPop: Since no object is of type NIL, I don't know what (say) (loop with x nil = ...) is supposed to mean.
2014-04-03T05:19:49Z Bike:  "The consequences are undefined if a type-spec argument is supplied for var if the related expression returns a value that is not of the supplied type."
2014-04-03T05:19:53Z Bike: i wanna see someone use it, now
2014-04-03T05:20:47Z Bike: (loop with x nil = (return)) gives me a macroexpansion parse error on sbcl
2014-04-03T05:21:09Z Bike: for all i know i'm not doing it right, but (loop with x float = (return)) works fine
2014-04-03T05:21:36Z beach: Bike: Yes, I noticed that too, but I didn't try (return).  Neat trick.
2014-04-03T05:21:51Z Bike: bottom types and all that.
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2014-04-03T05:22:46Z Bike: Maybe it's just a typo in the loop grammar.
2014-04-03T05:23:01Z beach: Bike: Interesting, so something like (let ((x (throw ...))) (declare (type nil x)) ...) ought to work.
2014-04-03T05:23:26Z beach: Bike: I doubt there is a typo.  It has been around for so long.
2014-04-03T05:23:29Z Bike: I don't think it's actually defined as such in lisp, it's just the norm with type systems that i'm aware of
2014-04-03T05:24:05Z Bike: and sbcl uses it, e.g. its type of cl:error is (function (t &rest t) nil)
2014-04-03T05:24:27Z beach: Right.  That's a good use of it.
2014-04-03T05:24:48Z Bike: beach: so has the typo/mistake in prog2, unless i don't get what you mean
2014-04-03T05:25:05Z beach: Yeah, OK, you are right of course.
2014-04-03T05:25:32Z Bike: like maybe somebody was going through and saw "oh, this allows t, well most things that allow t to designate something allow nil too"
2014-04-03T05:25:53Z beach: Possibly, yes.
2014-04-03T05:26:24Z Bike: it's difficult to imagine a nil type being used in, say, for-as-arithmetic, where it's perfectly legal
2014-04-03T05:26:25Z beach: Either way, we found a case where it makes sense, so it makes sense to allow it too.
2014-04-03T05:26:36Z beach: Indeed.
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2014-04-03T05:27:02Z beach: But the error should not be a parse error in my opinion.
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2014-04-03T05:28:48Z beach: Is anyone maintaining the ANSI test suite these days?
2014-04-03T05:29:06Z beach thinks probably not.
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2014-04-03T05:32:46Z beach: Bike and PuercoPop: Thanks for the input and help.  Back to work now.
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2014-04-03T06:55:01Z kami: Good morning
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2014-04-03T06:58:05Z splittist: morning kami
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2014-04-03T07:27:27Z mzgcz: Is there a easy way to print a hash content
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2014-04-03T07:27:54Z H4ns: mzgcz: alexandria:hash-table-plist could help
2014-04-03T07:31:47Z mzgcz: H4ns: good, it help me lot
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2014-04-03T08:06:23Z samebchase: Hello Lispers, How's this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/141899 for a nested hash-table pretty printer?
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2014-04-03T08:09:17Z prxq: samebchase: I like thie idea! That said, my eyes tend to see a lower precedence for , that for :, so that I see 1: 2, 3: 4 more as "1: 2, 3" and then stumble. What about {1 -> 2 ; 3 -> 4} ?
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2014-04-03T08:14:40Z theos: is there a book/material for understanding loop macro?
2014-04-03T08:15:04Z Zhivago: There is the hyperspec which has a chapter on it.
2014-04-03T08:15:58Z ggole: PCL has a chapter on it
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2014-04-03T08:18:30Z splittist: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/loop-for-black-belts.html
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2014-04-03T08:20:00Z theos: i see. thanks
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2014-04-03T08:21:48Z ggole takes the credit for splittist's leg-work
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2014-04-03T08:34:06Z samebchase: prxq: That looks okay too. I guess that can be trivially changed to "->" as well
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2014-04-03T08:35:35Z prxq: i just noticed that ; is a bad idea
2014-04-03T08:35:48Z Zhivago: Only if you don't wnat to confuse people about comments.
2014-04-03T08:35:49Z splittist: samebchase: alternative one-liner (defun ppht (hash-table) (loop initially (format t "{") for first = t then nil for key being the hash-keys in hash-table using (hash-value value) unless first do (format t ", ") if (hash-table-p value) do (ppht value) else do (format t "~a: ~a" key value) finally (format t "}")))
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2014-04-03T08:43:33Z samebchase: splittist: your solution for posterity http://paste.lisp.org/display/141899#1
2014-04-03T08:44:07Z samebchase: it needed to print the key for a nested hash-table so I fixed that
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2014-04-03T08:45:32Z splittist: samebchase: doh!
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2014-04-03T08:46:41Z samebchase: I did the same thing too when I was writing mine
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2014-04-03T08:51:27Z splittist: I've laid it out how I would do it in a new annotation.
2014-04-03T08:52:01Z prxq: wouldn't "~s" be more appropriate that "~a"? For example if "the key" and "the value" are strings...
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2014-04-03T08:53:13Z splittist: It's supposed to be pretty, not useful (:
2014-04-03T08:53:44Z splittist: (But, yes: if your key is "a: b," confusion reigns)
2014-04-03T08:53:57Z loke_: splittist: Why do it like that?
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2014-04-03T08:56:34Z splittist: loke_: so everything (the opening and closing delimiters, the value and the key formats and the separator) is expressed once and can be changed/parameterized more easily if required.
2014-04-03T08:56:58Z splittist: As to why put everything inside LOOP, that was just a self-imposed exercise for this reader.
2014-04-03T08:57:25Z loke_: splittist: sorry. I was misreading. I was about to suggest you use a single FORMAT call instead of the loop, like this "{~{~s: ~s~^, ~}}" but then I realised you were iterating over a hash table.
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2014-04-03T08:59:41Z prxq: loke_: you could dump it to a list first :-)
2014-04-03T08:59:55Z loke_: prxq: true, but that'd be less efficient
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2014-04-03T09:00:38Z loke_: Speaking of FORMAT... Is it known whether it's turing-complete? (my guess is yes, but I'd like to know)
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2014-04-03T09:06:01Z samebchase: splittist: oh I'll take a look now
2014-04-03T09:06:21Z p_l: loke_: i don't think so
2014-04-03T09:06:22Z Krystof: I believe format is not turing-complete
2014-04-03T09:06:32Z Krystof: I used to have an argument for why but I can't remember it
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2014-04-03T09:06:39Z splittist: no Q-registers
2014-04-03T09:06:55Z loke_: Q registers?
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2014-04-03T09:08:14Z samebchase: splittist: yeah. This is more readable
2014-04-03T09:09:03Z splittist: loke_: Something from TECO. http://www.yrl.co.uk/~elliott/teco/tecof_5_9.html It's what allowed Emacs to be written in it. When RMS complained that Format had become too hairy, GLS replied that at least he hadn't added Q-registers.
2014-04-03T09:10:43Z loke_: They should have :-)
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2014-04-03T09:10:52Z Shinmera: loke_: Well, there's always ~/foo/ ...
2014-04-03T09:11:05Z loke_: Shinmera: :-)
2014-04-03T09:13:47Z p_l: well, TECO was once removed from a base OS distro because "it's not an editor, it's a programming language"
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2014-04-03T09:14:32Z loke_: Well, "ed" is turing-complete too. I presume they removed that too.
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2014-04-03T11:49:55Z axion: how can i unintern a :before method of initialize-instance?
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2014-04-03T11:56:33Z ferada: axion: programmatically? otherwise you could use the slime inspector on #'initialize-instance
2014-04-03T11:57:24Z axion: no, i messed up a function and i cant create an instance of my class. i'm not sure how to use the slime inspector in vim
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2014-04-03T11:58:17Z splittist: axion: I think you FIND-METHOD and then REMOVE-METHOD
2014-04-03T11:59:10Z axion: i tried (remove-method (find-method #'initialize-instance '(:after) '(daemon))) but it's saying invalid number of arguments 1
2014-04-03T11:59:58Z splittist: axion: you haven't said which gf to remove that method from
2014-04-03T12:00:14Z axion: oh?
2014-04-03T12:00:16Z ferada: axion: so at least (remove-method #'initialize-instance ...
2014-04-03T12:00:53Z axion: thanks
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2014-04-03T12:01:19Z ferada: so, can i have a single method on different gfs? weird api
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2014-04-03T12:01:41Z splittist: I think it's more there isn't a mapping from methods to gf's
2014-04-03T12:02:47Z ferada: splittist: right, thats why a convenience method like remove-method with the same (or easier) arguments from find-method would be useful
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2014-04-03T12:03:32Z ferada: because with these cases, the inspector beats calling it manually every time
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2014-04-03T12:20:51Z frosch_: is there some easy way of converting a lisp file from upper case to lower case, preserving strings, comments, etc as is?
2014-04-03T12:21:03Z axion: how can i construct a designator of a function from a string? i have a function that takes a function designator and a string of the same name and i want to wrap this in a convenience function
2014-04-03T12:22:01Z Shinmera: ferada: Well you can always write a macro. Something like this: http://plaster.tymoon.eu/view?id=3N#
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2014-04-03T12:38:00Z Xach: frosch_: There isn't an easy way, but it may be possible for simple files with some reader tricks.
2014-04-03T12:39:02Z frosch_: mm... kinda what i suspected
2014-04-03T12:40:22Z frosch_: i was maybe thinking of using the pp but that has some other issues ...
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2014-04-03T12:45:01Z Xach: You'd need to put your own comment reader in place, for one, and hope there are no interesting reader macros in effect
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2014-04-03T12:45:31Z frosch_: yeah
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2014-04-03T12:46:06Z frosch_: maybe easier to just take one file at a time ... it is only a million lines of code or more ..
2014-04-03T12:46:38Z Xach: Oh, did you inherit maintenance duty on pjb's code?
2014-04-03T12:47:25Z frosch_: hahaha, no .. i wish :-)
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2014-04-03T12:53:40Z splittist: Was it zmacs that had a mode to upper-case symbols in the common-lisp package?
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2014-04-03T12:58:35Z frosch_: wouldn't be surprised .. wouldn't be surprised if there was a function to lower case in zmacs ...
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2014-04-03T13:30:13Z axion: ^ anyone have some pointers?
2014-04-03T13:30:49Z Xach: axion: I don't understand the question. Can you give a more concrete example?
2014-04-03T13:31:28Z Xach: I sometimes use a hash table in situations that sound vaguely like that, but I'm not sure if it's really a match for your situation.
2014-04-03T13:31:31Z axion: i have a function that takes as two arguments: #'string and "string"
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2014-04-03T13:31:39Z axion: i want to make a wrapper for 1 argument
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2014-04-03T13:32:18Z axion: generating a function designator from string, or vice versa
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2014-04-03T13:32:56Z Xach: axion: You can make that work if you forbit references to local functions (e.g. from flet or labels).
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2014-04-03T13:32:59Z Xach: forbid, rather.
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2014-04-03T13:34:35Z axion: hmm ok
2014-04-03T13:34:38Z Xach: You can't in general get the name of a function given a function object that is associated with it. You can get the string name of a symbol that designates a (global) function, though.
2014-04-03T13:36:00Z ggole: The third return value of function-lambda-expression might be useful
2014-04-03T13:36:08Z ggole: (On the other hand, it might also be useless.)
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2014-04-03T13:36:18Z ggole: ...bit of a shame about that.
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2014-04-03T13:42:13Z axion: (intern (string-upcase "string")) seems to work
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2014-04-03T13:43:23Z nyef: I have just found a line of argument that says that it should be possible to use keywords as class slot names.
2014-04-03T13:44:03Z nyef: It's an unlikely argument, but can anyone falsify it, working solely from the hyperspec?
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2014-04-03T13:45:19Z nyef: (Start at DEFCLASS, for the restriction on class slot names, then look at 3.1.2.1.1.3.)
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2014-04-03T13:46:34Z Krystof: nyef: not only is it an argument, I recall people arguing it
2014-04-03T13:46:34Z theos: everything inside () looks like code to me now :/
2014-04-03T13:47:00Z Krystof: (I don't think it's all that interesting an argument, personally)
2014-04-03T13:47:12Z nyef: Okay, so which way was the issue settled, or wasn't it?
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2014-04-03T13:48:17Z nyef: (I'm looking for a global namespace for holding data associated with an instance that I don't have to play symbol/package games with.
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2014-04-03T13:48:19Z nyef: )
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2014-04-03T13:48:38Z nyef: Oh, and that I can have a reasonable expectation of being somewhat optimal.
2014-04-03T13:49:02Z nyef: My other angle is to use an EQ hash table and keyword keys.
2014-04-03T13:49:31Z Krystof: I think at the moment you can't use keywords as slot names
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2014-04-03T13:49:46Z Krystof: I don't undestand your requirement :)
2014-04-03T13:50:48Z Krystof: for each instance, you want a thing that does keyword->thing lookup?
2014-04-03T13:51:53Z nyef: Yeah, basically.
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2014-04-03T13:52:14Z nyef: I wouldn't've minded leveraging the existing slot infrastructure, but I can still go with a hash table if necessary.
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2014-04-03T14:00:53Z Krystof: I think the traditional solution is a plist, no?
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2014-04-03T14:03:10Z nyef: But the breakeven point on a hash table is low enough.
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2014-04-03T15:36:11Z DEA7TH: I keep reading on various places that Lisp is very expressive thanks to its macros, metaprogramming features, and treating code like data. To what extend is it better than most other languages?
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2014-04-03T15:36:38Z DEA7TH: I'm asking because I might want to learn Lisp
2014-04-03T15:37:09Z H4ns: DEA7TH: if you learn lisp, you'll recognize to what extent it is "better" than other languages
2014-04-03T15:37:56Z DEA7TH: I'd like an estimate before I start to know what priority to place on learning it
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2014-04-03T15:38:50Z H4ns: DEA7TH: an estimate?  haha.  you're trying to make a joke, right?
2014-04-03T15:39:10Z DEA7TH: also I was wondering if that was only because many mainstraem languages are very poor at metaprogramming (sometimes intentionally, e.g. in Java and C#)
2014-04-03T15:39:19Z dlowe: We get "convince me to use lisp" requests all the time.
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2014-04-03T15:39:45Z H4ns: dlowe: it is tiring
2014-04-03T15:39:48Z dlowe: Nothing will convince you more than dipping your toe in and trying something small.
2014-04-03T15:40:28Z dlowe: Yes, Common Lisp is amazing.
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2014-04-03T15:40:43Z DEA7TH: I will try Lisp sooner or later, but I also have other projects
2014-04-03T15:41:00Z DEA7TH: so I'm trying to place a priority
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2014-04-03T15:41:10Z dlowe: We will help you with using Common Lisp sooner or later then, but we also have other projects.
2014-04-03T15:41:19Z dlowe: Like hacking lisp :D
2014-04-03T15:41:59Z DEA7TH: also do languages like Scala, Haskell and Ruby already cover the "best" features of Lisp?
2014-04-03T15:42:08Z Xach: DEA7TH: You should learn Common Lisp as soon as possible because it is the greatest and best language in the world.
2014-04-03T15:42:20Z Xach: This is not a channel for discussing Scala, Haskell, or Ruby, sorry.
2014-04-03T15:42:21Z H4ns: DEA7TH: none of the other languages can compete with common lisp.
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2014-04-03T15:43:07Z DEA7TH: H4ns: have you tried any of the ones I listed?
2014-04-03T15:43:13Z H4ns: DEA7TH: of course.
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2014-04-03T15:43:39Z DEA7TH: hmm. any other opinions on that?
2014-04-03T15:43:51Z H4ns: DEA7TH: i've been programming for 30 years now, and i've had my share in using inferior languages.  take it from an old dog:  common lisp is the red pill.
2014-04-03T15:44:22Z jasom: DEA7TH: http://www.cs.uni.edu/~wallingf/blog/archives/monthly/2011-10.html
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2014-04-03T15:48:05Z DEA7TH: do those properties of Lisp make it very concise?
2014-04-03T15:48:57Z dlowe should really make another, updated #lisp faq
2014-04-03T15:49:09Z DEA7TH: oops I haven't read the non-updated FAQ
2014-04-03T15:50:02Z dlowe: DEA7TH: http://random-state.net/files/nikodemus-cl-faq.txt
2014-04-03T15:51:18Z dlowe: it actually *has* been updated (thanks Nikodemus!)
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2014-04-03T15:52:59Z splittist: DEA7TH: Common Lisp is approximately 7 better than most other languages.
2014-04-03T15:54:47Z splittist: At STP, obviously. At altitude or very low temperatures it can be between 9 and 11 better. Theoretically, on the surface of the Sun it's betterness approaches Aleph.
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2014-04-03T15:57:10Z DEA7TH: splittist: I can give an estimate of how much more better at X are two given language
2014-04-03T15:57:30Z DEA7TH: not sure why people have trouble grasping that
2014-04-03T15:58:30Z nyef: But have you specified an X?
2014-04-03T15:58:47Z DEA7TH: anyway I got my answer, so I'll place high-ish priority
2014-04-03T15:58:56Z H4ns: DEA7TH: ah.  how much better is java at oo than ruby?
2014-04-03T15:59:07Z DEA7TH: I attempted to imply that I'm looking for expressiveness
2014-04-03T15:59:28Z H4ns: DEA7TH: how much more expressive is java at oo than ruby?
2014-04-03T15:59:36Z DEA7TH: and code non-repetition and maintainability, readability and everything which comes with it
2014-04-03T15:59:43Z DEA7TH: expressive at OO?
2014-04-03T16:01:00Z H4ns: DEA7TH: i'm not asking seriously.  i think i'm just trying to express that you're not making much sense.
2014-04-03T16:01:11Z H4ns: DEA7TH: to me, that is.
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2014-04-03T16:01:20Z DEA7TH: anyway I got my answer
2014-04-03T16:02:14Z splittist: DEA7TH: before we go all Wittgenstein's private language argument, I suggest you move CL way up your list, and once you've built some stuff in it, come back and tell us how it rates. I would be genuinely interested.
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2014-04-03T16:07:59Z DEA7TH: A somewhat unrelated question: is it possible to have a statically typed language that has Lisp's metaprogramming and treating code as data strengths?
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2014-04-03T16:14:34Z mal_: I can't formally prove it's impossible but I can't think of a candidate. Template Haskell is really clumsy compared to CL macros and people don't even try to build moderate complex things with it, certainly not on the scale of SERIES, CLOS or even LOOP
2014-04-03T16:16:37Z ggole: Clumsy is not the same as nonexistent.
2014-04-03T16:16:45Z DEA7TH: mal_: can you think of improvements to Template Haskell which can make it a better candidate?
2014-04-03T16:17:04Z Xach: Let us discuss Common Lisp.
2014-04-03T16:17:06Z ggole: There's also camlp4 (and to an extent, MetaOCaml)
2014-04-03T16:17:25Z ggole: But yeah, not Lisp.
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2014-04-03T16:17:38Z DEA7TH: Xach: this is still about Lisp, even if indirently so
2014-04-03T16:18:12Z Xach: Lisp is not the topic of this channel, Common Lisp is.
2014-04-03T16:18:13Z DEA7TH: to clarify, I'm looking for a yes/no/maybe answer, rather than detailed discussion
2014-04-03T16:18:34Z Xach: I hope the people who want to discuss it do so via private messages.
2014-04-03T16:19:08Z mal_: sure. let's talk Lisp. does macrology scale to big team programming?
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2014-04-03T16:20:24Z Xach: What counts as a big team?
2014-04-03T16:20:36Z mal_: let's say 20 people
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2014-04-03T16:21:07Z DEA7TH: Xach: are you saying this as a member of the community, or as a person who has moderator rights?
2014-04-03T16:21:52Z Xach: DEA7TH: Both.
2014-04-03T16:22:09Z DEA7TH: then I won't argue
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2014-04-03T16:22:44Z Xach: mal_: I wonder how many people have experience with that situation. I can only suspect a few in recentish years, like possibly ITA.
2014-04-03T16:23:11Z mal_: Xach: I know. that's why I ask.
2014-04-03T16:23:21Z Xach is out of touch with the folks he knows from bigger 80s CL projects
2014-04-03T16:23:31Z Xach: 80s/90s, that is
2014-04-03T16:23:54Z felideon: heck, most of the time it doesnt scale past 1 person.
2014-04-03T16:24:20Z mal_: Xach: imagine 2 or 3 independent inventions of Let Over Lambda style macrology where you have to know what g!#x is going to produce as variable and how many other identifiers it's going to bring into scope
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2014-04-03T16:25:27Z jasom: mal_: macrology does scale to big team programming, so long as your macros don't have bugs and do what they say they do
2014-04-03T16:25:45Z jasom: mal_: consider setf and loop
2014-04-03T16:25:49Z Xach: mal_: I think the situation improves when the dead-ends are explored more and marked as such.
2014-04-03T16:26:26Z ggole: My guess is that a small number of macros would prove indispensable and most of them would be a wash or dead loss.
2014-04-03T16:26:29Z mal_: jasom: loop is notoriously underspecified and some of the popular implementations allow stuff that is outside of the standard
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2014-04-03T16:26:47Z Vivitron`: This hypothetical macro problem never seems to be the actual complaints one hears from people on lisp teams
2014-04-03T16:26:47Z Xach: Fewer explorers, unfortunately. And fewer mapmaking explorers..
2014-04-03T16:26:50Z jasom: mal_: It seems to me that lisp programmers go through a stage with "Oh, look at all the cool things I can do with macros" followed by "Okay, I probably shouldn't do that most of the time"
2014-04-03T16:27:01Z mal_: jasom: and that is for a macro that has gotten the time and attention of the standard committee
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2014-04-03T16:27:34Z mal_: jasom: true. also in my case a stage of wanting to use every cool feature of CLOS
2014-04-03T16:27:40Z felideon: Vivitron`: what is the hypotethical macro problem, really?
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2014-04-03T16:27:55Z mal_: just because you can do something with a custom method combination doesn't mean it's a good idea :)
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2014-04-03T16:28:52Z jasom: mal_: most experienced lispers I've talked to say roughly "Don't use a macro when you don't have to" while also saying roughly "Macros are indispensible for some problems"
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2014-04-03T16:29:47Z Xach: there are matters of taste, like "please don't use or make anaphoric macros"
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2014-04-03T16:30:21Z jasom: mal_: and a lot of the macros you will run into regularly are fairly simple DO-FOO or WITH-BAR type macros that really make lisp pleasant to work with
2014-04-03T16:30:30Z mal_: I'd say Embedded Domain Specific Languages are indispensible for some problems but there may be other/better ways to realise them than macros
2014-04-03T16:30:41Z Vivitron`: felideon: roughly as mal_ put it, "imagine two or three inventions of Let Over Lambda style macrology [within the same team]"
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2014-04-03T16:31:14Z felideon: ah
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2014-04-03T16:31:29Z jasom: I'm *not* an experienced lisper, so take this with a grain of salt, but my impression of LoL so far is more "look at the cool things you can do with macros" rather than "I want to use this in my programs"
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2014-04-03T16:32:49Z mal_: I don't want to extrapolate too much from a few data points and old school lisp is notoriously hard to read but I once took a shot at getting rid of COMPILER-LET in the SERIES package and I didn't get very far.
2014-04-03T16:33:33Z jasom: ultimately macros are just a slightly more powerful abstraction than functions.  If you write a function like this (defun sum (list) (reduce #'* list)) It will be nearly as annoying as a poor macro
2014-04-03T16:34:23Z mal_: jasom: agreed about LoL but it's a bit of a strange situation where we extol the virtues of Lisp as having the one true macro system and simultaneously telling people to avoid using it where possible :)
2014-04-03T16:35:07Z jasom: mal_: Not really, it's like extolling the virtues of your sawzall while telling people to avoid using it where possible
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2014-04-03T16:52:31Z ggole: Using the minimum necessary "force" is usually regarded as a good thing
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2014-04-03T16:53:32Z ggole: Partly because an interested reader doesn't have to wonder whether they are missing some issue of semantics requiring the more powerful feature
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2014-04-03T17:38:54Z fiveop: I would very much like to have direct-slot-definitions passed to effective-slot-definition-class :/
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2014-04-03T17:42:01Z JuanDaugherty: y u no do w MOP?
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2014-04-03T17:43:13Z ndaincjai: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/22844785/identification-in-a-distributed-p2p-network
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2014-04-03T19:16:34Z bhyde: drakma:http-request oft returns a byte vector when I'm hoping for a string.  I wrote a work around years ago, but there must be a better way.  WDYT?  example workaround: https://github.com/bhyde/cdo-web/blob/master/api.lisp#L46
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2014-04-03T19:18:28Z H4ns: bhyde: you need to understand content types
2014-04-03T19:18:49Z H4ns: bhyde: drakma returns a string only for text content types where it has some certainity about the character set
2014-04-03T19:19:45Z H4ns: bhyde: if you are sure that you know the character set of the response, you can add your content types to drakma:*text-content-types* (http://weitz.de/drakma/#*text-content-types*)
2014-04-03T19:19:54Z bhyde: hm ... (:content-type . "application/json;charset=UTF-8")
2014-04-03T19:19:56Z Shinmera: bhyde: if you know the content type you have to add it to.. yeah what H4ns said
2014-04-03T19:20:20Z Shinmera: bhyde: https://github.com/Shinmera/colleen/blob/master/modules/rss.lisp#L113
2014-04-03T19:20:22Z H4ns: bhyde: application/json does not have a charset attribute, even if several web servers pretend it does.
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2014-04-03T19:20:58Z H4ns: bhyde: obviously, you need to make sure that you correctly set up the content type for drakma to use.
2014-04-03T19:21:14Z H4ns: erm, the character set
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2014-04-03T19:22:03Z Shinmera: That's set on a per-request basis with :external-format-in though
2014-04-03T19:22:03Z H4ns: bhyde: also see flexi-streams:octet-to-string (http://weitz.de/flexi-streams/#octets-to-string)
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2014-04-03T19:23:31Z H4ns: i find it amazing that people believe that they need to put a charset attribute into their json content types.  json is defined to be utf-8 encoded.  anyone who needs to look at a charset attribute in the content type to determine that is doing it wrong
2014-04-03T19:23:38Z H4ns: well, but then, so many people do it wrong.
2014-04-03T19:23:39Z H4ns: :D
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2014-04-03T19:24:10Z fiveop: Shinmera: How about LIST* ? :)
2014-04-03T19:24:52Z Shinmera: fiveop: I was unaware of it.
2014-04-03T19:24:58Z bhyde: Thanks all, particularly Shinmera's code ... "(let ((drakma:*text-content-types* '(("application" . "json")))) (drakma:http-request "http://www.ncdc ..." is good
2014-04-03T19:25:02Z Shinmera: fiveop: Will keep it in mind though, thanks!
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2014-04-03T19:26:37Z andreh: What's the difference between calling (function sym) and (symbol-function 'x)?
2014-04-03T19:27:06Z andreh: The first is a special operator, the second acesses a slot in the symbol, but do they word differently?
2014-04-03T19:27:15Z andreh: work*
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2014-04-03T19:30:33Z bhyde: andreh: to save me some typing I'll use the mnemonic form for (symbol-function 'foo), i.e. #'foo
2014-04-03T19:30:57Z andreh: OK
2014-04-03T19:31:09Z bhyde: (funcall #'foo 1) v.s. (funcall 'foo 1) you will get exactly the same effect
2014-04-03T19:31:46Z bhyde: both funcall and apply will attempt to coerce a symbol into a function by using symbol-function, so in a sense there is little difference
2014-04-03T19:32:15Z fiveop: Isn't #'... a reader macro expanding to (function ...)?
2014-04-03T19:32:24Z bhyde: there are subtle and somewhat unusual cases where it can make a difference, but they depend on when the symbol-function is done
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2014-04-03T19:32:38Z ggole: #' and ' aren't the same
2014-04-03T19:32:39Z bhyde: yes #'foo is converted at read time into (symbol-function 'foo)
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2014-04-03T19:33:19Z ggole: No, into (function foo)
2014-04-03T19:33:41Z fiveop: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhb.htm
2014-04-03T19:34:34Z ggole: You can tell the difference easily: (defun foo () 'red) (labels ((foo () 'green)) (cons (funcall 'foo) (funcall #'foo)))
2014-04-03T19:34:48Z bhyde: correct, sorry #'foo is converted at read time into (function foo)
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2014-04-03T19:35:32Z ggole: (This is my least favourite thing about Lisp-2s.)
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2014-04-03T19:36:47Z fiveop: (defun foo () 'red) (labels ((foo () 'green)) (list (funcall 'foo) (funcall #'foo) (funcall (symbol-function 'foo))))
2014-04-03T19:37:05Z fiveop: for andreh's question
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2014-04-03T19:39:51Z therik: whoah I can use 'my-func to refer to functions defined by defun from within funcall?
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2014-04-03T19:40:06Z bhyde: andreh: what fiveop is pointing out is that lexical functions are not stored into the symbol's symbol-function slot.  or to put it another way this is why function is a special operator
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2014-04-03T19:40:27Z andreh: Thanks.
2014-04-03T19:40:32Z fiveop: you can't store them there
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2014-04-03T19:40:44Z andreh: That clears up the ideas
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2014-04-03T19:41:12Z bhyde: therik: yes, or to put it another way, this is why when you map a lexical function over something you need to refer to it #' rather than '  (map 'foo my-list) v.s. (map #'foo my-list)
2014-04-03T19:41:24Z andreh: There's this part in HyperSpec:
2014-04-03T19:41:24Z andreh: file:///home/andreh/Dropbox/Code/QL/source/HyperSpec-7-0/HyperSpec/Body/f_funcal.htm
2014-04-03T19:41:32Z andreh: ops...
2014-04-03T19:41:45Z andreh: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_funcal.htm
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2014-04-03T19:42:07Z andreh: That says that funcall coerces symbols into functions
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2014-04-03T19:43:15Z therik: is it considered bad to just use (funcall 'foo) instead of the #' macro then?
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2014-04-03T19:43:43Z therik: I see #' used everywhere, but ' just looks cleaner
2014-04-03T19:43:51Z bhyde: yes, it does; but as it says "in the global environment"
2014-04-03T19:44:05Z fiveop: therik: I say #' looks cleaner
2014-04-03T19:44:49Z Shinmera: #' conveys better intent than '.
2014-04-03T19:45:05Z Shinmera: or rather, the more appropriate intent
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2014-04-03T19:46:35Z bhyde: the problem i see with writing (map 'foo ...) is that I, the reader, think when I see that: "On No!  He's not (clever bastard) avoiding a lexically defined foo is he?"
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2014-04-03T19:46:58Z therik: I see
2014-04-03T19:47:21Z nyef: The problem I see with writing (map 'foo ...) is that foo isn't valid as the first argument to MAP.
2014-04-03T19:47:39Z nyef: But, yes, that reaction too, in general.
2014-04-03T19:47:39Z bhyde: nyef: true that :)
2014-04-03T19:48:03Z bhyde wishes he'd written mapcar
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2014-04-03T19:49:33Z ck_: also, the xref facilities won't pick up the references when symbols are used, which can bite you while refactoring for example
2014-04-03T19:49:57Z therik: so if lexical functions weren't any different from global functions, 'foo would be acceptable?
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2014-04-03T19:50:41Z fiveop: ck_: what xref facilities?
2014-04-03T19:50:46Z bhyde recalls history professor who would absolutely _never_ tolerate hypothetical alternative histories
2014-04-03T19:51:02Z therik: heh
2014-04-03T19:51:39Z bhyde: therik: i suspect the cascade of other changes don't work out well in that alternate reality
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2014-04-03T19:52:14Z ck_: fiveop: I was talking about the ones slime uses, like slime-who-calls
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2014-04-03T19:54:28Z fiveop: ck_: didn't know slime had that :)
2014-04-03T19:54:46Z Xach: ck_: That's an interesting point. I wonder if xref could be taught better about cases where a symbol designates a function and it's unambiguous.
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2014-04-03T19:55:37Z ck_: fiveop: well, it doesn't keep the crossreferencing table itself iirc, but uses the implementation-provided one
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2014-04-03T19:56:23Z francogrex: in sbcl is there any way to return from ldb to the repl?
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2014-04-03T19:57:01Z Xach: It would be interesting to develop a profile of someone based on how they choose to do CL things. Like how often they use setq, or if they put a quote in front of keyword args used as data, or if they use defmethod without defgeneric, or if they use nil, '(), () in particular ways in particular situations.
2014-04-03T19:57:09Z francogrex: exit, kill and quit are too 'violent'
2014-04-03T19:57:19Z Xach: francogrex: I don't think so. I think landing in ldb means the lisp side of things is over.
2014-04-03T19:57:31Z francogrex: ok
2014-04-03T19:57:34Z Xach: francogrex: i disable ldb on production systems because of that. i want it to stop.
2014-04-03T19:57:46Z Xach: someday i may want to debug more and i may turn it back on
2014-04-03T19:58:16Z therik: bhyde: I get that, I guess my question was more about whether there are some other differences between #' and ' in funcall
2014-04-03T19:59:17Z therik: those things make me cringe a little
2014-04-03T20:00:07Z Xach tries to think of identifying characteristics...use of &aux, use of rplaca...
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2014-04-03T20:01:30Z ck_: Xach: I got the point about the xref from someone wiser than me actually.. but isn't the point that 'fun can never be resolved unambiguously at compile-time, when the xref tables are filled?
2014-04-03T20:01:35Z ferada: Xach: upper/lower case, #:, : or plain symbols with in-package/defpackage
2014-04-03T20:01:51Z nyef: francogrex: Yes, it's possible. There's a magic alien-funcall that will invoke it, and you can then return from ldb back to lisp.
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2014-04-03T20:02:12Z bhyde: Xach: i had a coworker who used AND and OR in preference to other flow control constructs.
2014-04-03T20:02:16Z Xach: ck_: I don't know. I'd guess that (map nil 'fun ...) could be indexed as a call site for fun...
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2014-04-03T20:02:30Z Xach: ferada, bhyde: nice, nice
2014-04-03T20:02:32Z nyef: Now, if I could just remember the syntax for a free-form alien-funcall.
2014-04-03T20:02:51Z Xach: ferada: and strings for in-package/defpackage!
2014-04-03T20:03:11Z ferada: right, never used that option, but of course
2014-04-03T20:03:42Z Fare: nyef: herep
2014-04-03T20:03:42Z minion: Fare, memo from easye: <irc://frenode.org/#common-lisp.net>
2014-04-03T20:03:43Z minion: Fare, memo from easye: <irc://freenode.org/#common-lisp.net>
2014-04-03T20:03:43Z Xach: ifprogn vs cond, one-legged if vs when/unless...though i rarely see that.
2014-04-03T20:03:58Z Fare: nyef: is quick-build published somewhere?
2014-04-03T20:04:08Z Fare: if not, may I publish it on the asdf site?
2014-04-03T20:04:52Z nyef: At this point, I might get in trouble if it shows up publicly, I'm afraid. /-:
2014-04-03T20:05:00Z Fare: if your latest version doesn't have md5sum of b7c0e512af2bf0d02111302ef95a9bd5, can you send your latest to me?
2014-04-03T20:05:02Z bhyde: Xach: let's not forget the put it all in one package styel
2014-04-03T20:05:23Z Fare: nyef: oh, so it's that proprietary? :-(
2014-04-03T20:06:08Z Fare: oh well, others can use asdf-package-system, I suppose.
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2014-04-03T20:06:22Z nyef: Well, the announcement has gone out that someone's buying the quickable IP and such, and we didn't publish it well in advance, so...
2014-04-03T20:06:47Z Fare: :-/
2014-04-03T20:06:54Z nyef: On the other paw, you've got the basic idea behind it, so re-creating it (and doing a possibly-better job) shouldn't be too hard.
2014-04-03T20:07:05Z Fare: I'm glad I pushed out quux before anyone bought QRes, then.
2014-04-03T20:07:16Z ck_: Xach: also (and x y) instead of (when x y), same with (not ..) and (or ..)
2014-04-03T20:07:19Z Xach: quickable?
2014-04-03T20:07:24Z Fare: nyef: I've already re-created it, albeit as an ASDF extension.
2014-04-03T20:07:44Z Fare: nyef: it's about the same size as your code, except it pulls in the rest of ASDF.
2014-04-03T20:08:01Z francogrex: nyef: you mean back to the previous image of sbcl with all funcs and variables as they were or is it almost like restarting a fresh session?
2014-04-03T20:08:20Z nyef: Yeah, it's one of those things, we could have gotten away with it if it had been published a few months ago, but at this point we probably should count it as something to keep private. /-:
2014-04-03T20:08:27Z nyef: francogrex: Back to the running session.
2014-04-03T20:08:29Z Fare: ok
2014-04-03T20:08:38Z nyef: francogrex: I'll have an example for you in a minute.
2014-04-03T20:08:39Z Fare: I'll cite you as [private communication] then.
2014-04-03T20:08:40Z francogrex: interested by that magic
2014-04-03T20:09:04Z francogrex: it's not mentioned in the help
2014-04-03T20:09:17Z Fare: nyef: what date should I ascribe to it?
2014-04-03T20:09:34Z ck_: now that I think about it, you could probably get most identifying mileage out of the way people use LOOP and FORMAT
2014-04-03T20:09:46Z nyef: Fare: The communication, or quick-build itself?
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2014-04-03T20:10:52Z nyef: francogrex: http://paste.lisp.org/display/141905
2014-04-03T20:12:00Z nyef: francogrex: That'll die if you don't have LDB in your build, but should still work if you've done --disable-debugger or equivalent.
2014-04-03T20:12:35Z Fare: nyef: either
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2014-04-03T20:12:55Z Fare: whichever you want to be cited as.
2014-04-03T20:12:59Z Fare: if you do
2014-04-03T20:15:43Z nyef: Looks like quick-build was first implemented on 2012-04-02, so just over two years ago, but there was about a year of bugfixing to get its current form.
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2014-04-03T20:16:19Z nyef: Well, bugfixing and feature enhancement.
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2014-04-03T20:16:31Z francogrex: ok nyef it works. but the thing is you're using that alien explictly to enter into ldb... by situation is different is that like Xach said, I land in ldb after having messed up a lot (like memory addresses etc)
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2014-04-03T20:17:07Z francogrex: exit will kick me out of lisp altogether
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2014-04-03T20:17:26Z nyef: francogrex: Okay, yeah, in that case you're sunk, I'm afraid.
2014-04-03T20:18:12Z francogrex: ok, but i'll keep that example you gave it's handy if one wants to go temporarily into ldb to examine regs etc
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2014-04-03T20:29:51Z nyef: francogrex: Actually, it might be interesting to be able to recover from some issues that land one in LDB. The problem is that you have to find each call to lose() that you want to be able to recover from, define what it means to be able to recover, and arrange some suitable way to recover, such as having a conditionally-enabled ability to activate a restart.
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2014-04-03T20:35:54Z Fare: nyef: I'm doubly glad I wrote asdf-package-system, then, because it would be a shame if quick-build style were lost.
2014-04-03T20:36:39Z Fare: nyef: if you need to rewrite it after the asset is sold, call it gangnam, so we have a nicer name for the one file, one package style
2014-04-03T20:37:00Z Fare: or then again, just use asdf 3.1, which has it builtin.
2014-04-03T20:37:03Z nyef: ... Why "gangnam"?
2014-04-03T20:37:34Z Fare: so I can tell lispers to write their code gangnam style?
2014-04-03T20:37:39Z nyef is resisting the urge to look to see if it's something obvious to do with one of the more common alternative keymaps.
2014-04-03T20:38:03Z nyef: Still not getting the joke, I'm afraid.
2014-04-03T20:38:37Z Fare: did you manage to avoid this video? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CH1XGdu-hzQ
2014-04-03T20:38:49Z Fare: biggest hit of 2012
2014-04-03T20:40:08Z nyef: Not only did I manage to avoid it, I can't even see it now. Something about not having a flash plugin on this box. (-:
2014-04-03T20:45:43Z pjb: You don't lose anything.
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2014-04-03T20:50:18Z nyef: Except the ability to understand certain jokes, which is probably not that great a loss.
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2014-04-03T20:56:52Z therik: plastic korean chicks between legs of a guy who's playing invisible drums is surely cool
2014-04-03T20:57:15Z p_l: therik: more cool was how it won acclaim *because* it was incomprehensible to majority
2014-04-03T20:57:26Z therik: but how did that get two billion views that's beyond me
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2014-04-03T20:58:13Z p_l: therik: probably because majority of those viewers didn't understood a speck of korean and thus didn't have to think about the words? :)
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2014-04-03T20:58:52Z p_l: admittedly, the song and the video are both good (IMO)
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2014-04-03T20:59:14Z therik: p_l: there are worse things, but it's still just music for people who hate music in the first place
2014-04-03T20:59:32Z therik: as most of the mainstream music is
2014-04-03T20:59:33Z H4ns: therik: that is offtopic.  and bullshit.
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2014-04-03T21:00:39Z therik: H4ns: ok, sorry
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2014-04-03T21:10:49Z bhyde will not be tempted to researching: viewing you tube inside emacs/w3m ... damn it!
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2014-04-03T21:14:28Z p_l: bhyde: write a bit of lisp to grab find the apropriate download link
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2014-04-03T23:17:36Z Denommus: hi
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2014-04-04T00:28:11Z JuanDaugherty: yello Denommus
2014-04-04T00:29:53Z JuanDaugherty: (it can be a slow channel, in spite of pop)
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2014-04-04T00:35:37Z pjb: It's not slow.  It's apathic to messages not providing any information.
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2014-04-04T02:54:02Z nydel: i was messing with sockets in common lisp, wanting to create something like a telnet-based program to submit a request for a shell account on my system
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2014-04-04T02:54:55Z nydel: but it seems tempting to go further. as i build on the function that handles a tcp request (it's passed the stream) i kind of think building a MUD would be pretty easy in CL
2014-04-04T02:55:00Z nydel: has anyone ever done anything like that?
2014-04-04T02:55:15Z nydel: not in history, i mean, anyone here in this #
2014-04-04T02:56:28Z Zhivago: Well, the telnet protocol is non-trivial.
2014-04-04T02:57:28Z Zhivago: You might get more milleage out of something webbery.
2014-04-04T02:57:32Z nydel: Zhivago: i'm glad you said that; as we speak, i'm reading definitions of "trivial" in english and other dictionaries.. the concept "trivial" vis a vis computer science may not be as solid as it should for me
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2014-04-04T02:58:38Z nydel: Zhivago: what do you think about a RPG where upon logging in, you're made to be a character with randomized-ish attributes, and the goal of the game is to figure out who you are by interacting with other people in the MUD who are trying to do the same thing
2014-04-04T02:58:39Z Zhivago: Telnet has a lot of exciting options.
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2014-04-04T02:59:05Z Zhivago: It sounds like it would require a significant network effect to work.
2014-04-04T02:59:18Z Zhivago: Unless you had a large population of sufficiently intelligent robots.
2014-04-04T02:59:20Z nydel: perhaps there are some rules laid out, like, this race like this race, can't see this race, etc...attractive people are more likely to be notices...intelligent people are more likely to observe you correctly... etc
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2014-04-04T03:00:47Z Zhivago: You'd also have to explain the complete lack of reflective surfaces.
2014-04-04T03:01:04Z zRecursive: In sbcl, can (sleep 0.1) sleep less than 0.1 second ?
2014-04-04T03:01:05Z nydel: working titles do include "where are all the mirrors" etc
2014-04-04T03:01:20Z Zhivago: Perhaps everyone is blind and instead of 'look' you can 'grope'.
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2014-04-04T03:01:36Z nydel: classic Zhivago.
2014-04-04T03:01:59Z Zhivago: zrecursive: Posix interrupts may apply; check the documentation.
2014-04-04T03:02:01Z nydel: zRecursive: loop and collect the universal timestamp, judge the quantity
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2014-04-04T03:03:31Z zRecursive: Zhivago: (usleep 300000) works in Guile, then i hope CL will provide such a function
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2014-04-04T03:04:24Z nydel: how many seconds is that there, zRecursive
2014-04-04T03:04:41Z oGMo: zRecursive: yes, to fractional sleeps
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2014-04-04T03:05:15Z zRecursive: nydel: divided by 10^6
2014-04-04T03:05:27Z zRecursive: 0.3 sec
2014-04-04T03:05:39Z nydel: that's the same as 300ms right
2014-04-04T03:06:06Z zRecursive: yeah, but CL seems can sleep seconds
2014-04-04T03:06:29Z nydel: i don't know if this helps but in elisp there is another sleep function. i think it's (sleep-for) and it takes seconds and optional ms
2014-04-04T03:06:41Z oGMo: zRecursive: it's not real-time by any means
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2014-04-04T03:07:04Z oGMo: nothing is going to be, though
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2014-04-04T03:07:43Z nydel: i bet it could be easy to write your slime to use sleep-for, if you're using slime with your sbcl
2014-04-04T03:07:44Z Zhivago: zrecursive: Instead of hoping, why not take 30 seconds to look up the documentation?
2014-04-04T03:07:44Z zRecursive: In a guile game, it works indeed
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2014-04-04T03:08:35Z Zhivago: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/CLHS/Body/f_sleep.htm
2014-04-04T03:08:39Z zRecursive: Zhivago: i will, but it is better to know how guile does it
2014-04-04T03:09:06Z Zhivago: What is relevant about how guile does it?
2014-04-04T03:09:14Z nydel: zRecursive: may i ask why, if for any particular reason, you're sleeping for such tiny moments
2014-04-04T03:09:28Z nydel: that is, what the project/function is
2014-04-04T03:10:15Z zRecursive: nydel: i really want to see guile's source now
2014-04-04T03:10:29Z Zhivago: Then take 2 minutes and look at it.
2014-04-04T03:10:35Z zRecursive: and implement it using sbcl
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2014-04-04T03:10:41Z zRecursive: Zhivago: ok
2014-04-04T03:10:43Z Zhivago: There is no need to be completely helpless like that.
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2014-04-04T03:11:35Z nydel: i really can't be bothered with non-CL dialects myself
2014-04-04T03:12:02Z oGMo: not really a matter of dialect :P
2014-04-04T03:12:27Z nydel: i thought the guile thing was scheme
2014-04-04T03:12:43Z Zhivago: It is, but the real issue here is learning to be non-useless.
2014-04-04T03:12:50Z zRecursive: i'm just curious its algorithm
2014-04-04T03:13:04Z Zhivago: Why haven't you read it yet?
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2014-04-04T03:13:16Z oGMo: it's not an "algorithm", at a guess it's just calling usleep or similar .. note guile is C, and C calls are going to have less overhead
2014-04-04T03:13:34Z nydel: i can't imagine guile's source isn't available what with it having gnu in its name
2014-04-04T03:13:35Z zRecursive: ffi ?
2014-04-04T03:13:37Z oGMo: in CL you can probably do similar without a huge impact, but .. why are you doing this again?
2014-04-04T03:14:08Z nydel: that's what i want to know -- why this is being done
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2014-04-04T03:14:44Z oGMo: if for a game you may be better off letting something else sleep/wake for you
2014-04-04T03:15:08Z oGMo: if anything else, you're probably doing it wrong
2014-04-04T03:15:14Z nydel: here's a stupid solution: time something like (+ 5 3) then execute that however many times is necessary to sleep for 1 thousaandth of a ms
2014-04-04T03:15:19Z zRecursive: it is a game, 1 second seems too long
2014-04-04T03:15:26Z Zhivago: Or just call (sleep seconds)
2014-04-04T03:15:28Z oGMo: nydel: that's probably the worst possible way :p
2014-04-04T03:15:40Z nydel: worst i can think of, oGMo: can anyone top mine?
2014-04-04T03:15:47Z nydel: (by top i mean worse)
2014-04-04T03:16:02Z Zhivago: You could hire a Mexican circus midget to press a button every thousandth of a second.
2014-04-04T03:16:13Z nydel: clap clap Zhivago
2014-04-04T03:17:14Z zRecursive: :)
2014-04-04T03:17:15Z nydel: however ciesta units are in hours at smallest i assume
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2014-04-04T03:20:25Z Zhivago: Anyhow, what's wrong with just calling SLEEP?
2014-04-04T03:21:04Z nydel: (return-from this-conversation nil)
2014-04-04T03:21:42Z nydel: seriously, calling sleep seems fine.
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2014-04-04T03:23:12Z nydel: though i just can't imagine some situation where i need to control time manually on such a small scale.. it'd make me feel like i'd done something fundamentally incorrect somewhere
2014-04-04T03:23:29Z nydel: like open a datagram where a stream should be or vise versa
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2014-04-04T03:57:55Z dkcl: nydel: That's the next pet project on my list
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2014-04-04T04:00:07Z dkcl: nydel: Actually, only the networking code is missing, but that's the whole point of online games, isn't it?
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2014-04-04T04:27:22Z kami: Good morning
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2014-04-04T04:49:39Z oleo: good morning
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2014-04-04T06:06:05Z zRecursive: How about the msleep implementation ? http://paste.lisp.org/display/141909
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2014-04-04T06:15:20Z H4ns: zRecursive: huh?  1) busy waiting 2) sleep 0.02
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2014-04-04T06:20:40Z nydel: dkcl: hah i'm missing everything except the networking code. so you've a multi-user game all set to go?
2014-04-04T06:21:47Z nydel: zRecursive: is #'msleep more appealing than #'sleep & why/how?
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2014-04-04T06:28:33Z loke_: Wow.
2014-04-04T06:28:38Z loke_: that msleep looks terrible
2014-04-04T06:28:56Z loke_: it doesn't sleep, it busy-waits
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2014-04-04T06:29:45Z nydel: loke_: i've never seen pure code for sleep function, how does it do it differently
2014-04-04T06:29:56Z Bike: tell the os to unschedule you for a while, yeah?
2014-04-04T06:30:01Z loke_: nydel: That dpends on the operating system
2014-04-04T06:30:15Z H4ns: it uses the operating system
2014-04-04T06:30:36Z loke_: nydel: At its core, you set a wakeup time on your thread and then tell the operating system to take you off the run queue until the timeout expires
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2014-04-04T06:30:42Z H4ns: because if everyone would be busy waiting, how'd the operating system get to know what to do next?
2014-04-04T06:32:39Z Zhivago: It would busy-wait, too.
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2014-04-04T06:33:05Z H4ns: there is a reason why my computer's fan is not always blowing, and i like it like that
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2014-04-04T06:33:16Z Zhivago: Maybe your computer sucks.
2014-04-04T06:33:27Z H4ns: :(
2014-04-04T06:33:41Z H4ns: it may suck, but i'm glad that it does not BLOW
2014-04-04T06:33:47Z H4ns: *rimshot*
2014-04-04T06:33:56Z loke_: Most operating systems have a lowest-level busy-wait loop (although it rarely should go into the loop, since they use the HALT instruction to wait for an interrupt and save poiwer)
2014-04-04T06:35:44Z attila_lendvai: is there a CL mailing list like 'pro but for less experienced lispers asking less pro questions?
2014-04-04T06:35:48Z loke_: You might want to look at section 7.3 here: http://tldp.org/HOWTO/Linux-i386-Boot-Code-HOWTO/init_main.html
2014-04-04T06:36:07Z loke_: attila_lendvai: Reddit?
2014-04-04T06:36:17Z loke_: The Google+ Common Lisp community?
2014-04-04T06:36:17Z H4ns: stackoverflow
2014-04-04T06:36:21Z loke_: Right
2014-04-04T06:36:37Z attila_lendvai: the guy has very limited access to internet, practically email-only...
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2014-04-04T06:39:00Z loke_: attila_lendvai: He's in Turkey? :-)
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2014-04-04T06:39:11Z attila_lendvai: much worse, cuba
2014-04-04T06:39:35Z attila_lendvai: I'll send him a pair of tp-link wireless link, that may help *if* it gets through the customs... :/
2014-04-04T06:40:34Z loke_: attila_lendvai: They should be able to acces sstackoverflow from their internet cafes though? I remember reading about them, and they seemed to have opened up a bit recently.
2014-04-04T06:42:15Z attila_lendvai: it's all a question of money... but it's hard to have resources in socialist hell-hole without being corrupted to the bone... but those people don't learn programming to get by...
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2014-04-04T06:43:54Z zRecursive: thanks for all your hints, i fell #'delay should be more appropriate name than #'msleep ?
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2014-04-04T06:46:06Z zRecursive: nydel: i hope it would delay integral milliseconds
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2014-04-04T06:49:26Z H4ns: zRecursive: i think you misunderstand the comments
2014-04-04T06:49:57Z H4ns: zRecursive: (defun msleep (msecs) (sleep (/ msecs 1000)))
2014-04-04T06:50:30Z H4ns: zRecursive: no user-mode program should use busy looping for timing purposes, ever.
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2014-04-04T06:52:19Z zRecursive: i see, but calling #'sleep with non-integer seems NOT working
2014-04-04T06:52:52Z H4ns: zRecursive: what do you mean by that?
2014-04-04T06:53:16Z zRecursive: so it cannot delay milliseconds
2014-04-04T06:53:34Z Zhivago: SLEEP takes a real.
2014-04-04T06:53:42Z H4ns: zRecursive: maybe you should use a differen cl implementation which has a better sleep implementation
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2014-04-04T06:54:02Z Bike: what does "not working" mean, exactly
2014-04-04T06:54:03Z zRecursive: i am using sbcl
2014-04-04T06:54:19Z H4ns: ±.
2014-04-04T06:54:21Z zRecursive: clhs sleep
2014-04-04T06:54:21Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_sleep.htm
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2014-04-04T06:55:02Z loke_: zRecursive: What operating system are you on?
2014-04-04T06:55:08Z loke_: (me guesses Windows)
2014-04-04T06:55:09Z zRecursive: FreeBSD
2014-04-04T06:55:11Z loke_: Oh
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2014-04-04T06:55:26Z loke_: SBCL most definitely works for sub-second sleeps on Linux
2014-04-04T06:55:31Z zRecursive: Bike: i need milliseconds not seconds
2014-04-04T06:55:31Z loke_: It calls down into nanosleep
2014-04-04T06:55:37Z Zhivago: Just don't pass it pi.
2014-04-04T06:55:54Z Bike: zRecursive: divide by a thousand.
2014-04-04T06:55:54Z loke_: Freebsd has nonsleep too, so I'm not sure why it wouldn't work
2014-04-04T06:56:48Z H4ns: zRecursive: i gave you a definition that works
2014-04-04T06:56:56Z zRecursive: ok
2014-04-04T06:57:00Z H4ns: zRecursive: even on freebsd.
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2014-04-04T07:03:46Z PuercoPop: zRecursive: You may try to look into cl-async's delay function. It wraps libevent2 for you
2014-04-04T07:04:01Z PuercoPop: http://orthecreedence.github.io/cl-async/events#delay
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2014-04-04T07:04:57Z zRecursive: PuercoPop: great
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2014-04-04T08:13:11Z gay4pay: can a subnet mask be a number besides 255 or 0?
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2014-04-04T08:21:33Z loke_: gay4pay: yes
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2014-04-04T08:22:00Z gay4pay: loke_: were you confused when you first learned about subnet?
2014-04-04T08:22:05Z loke_: 240 is quite common
2014-04-04T08:22:14Z loke_: gay4pay: Hmm... Not really
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2014-04-04T08:22:30Z gay4pay: i guess i'm not learning it properly
2014-04-04T08:22:44Z gay4pay: or i have a learning disability
2014-04-04T08:23:03Z loke_: I foun dusing a mask rather than a single number indicating the number of bits to be pretty stupid. That said, the number-of-bits thing is the common way of expressing it these days, like 192.168.1.0/24
2014-04-04T08:25:25Z gay4pay: how does 255.255.255.0 == 192.168.1.0?
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2014-04-04T08:26:02Z gay4pay: how does 255.255.255.0 == 192.168.1.0/24?*
2014-04-04T08:26:30Z H4ns: gay4pay: that is history. https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1918
2014-04-04T08:27:46Z loke_: H4ns: has there ever been (and _can_ there ever be) a netmask with "holes" in them? Like, #b1111011... etc
2014-04-04T08:27:59Z loke_: I've never heard of one myself
2014-04-04T08:28:50Z H4ns: loke_: ip is specified to allow that
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2014-04-04T08:29:15Z H4ns: loke_: i've never seen it, though.
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2014-04-04T08:30:49Z loke_: gay4pay: convert 255 255 255 0 to a single binary sequence: #b11111111111111111111111100000000
2014-04-04T08:30:58Z loke_: gay4pay: then count the number of bits on the left = 24
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2014-04-04T08:32:24Z H4ns: read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classless_Inter-Domain_Routing
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2014-04-04T08:34:39Z loke_: Hmm... Reading old RFC's... Coul dit be that RFC-62 is the first reference to what later became the concept of TCP and UDP port numbers?
2014-04-04T08:34:51Z loke_: 3 Aug 1970
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2014-04-04T08:36:08Z JuanDaugherty: possibly, that's early enough
2014-04-04T08:36:19Z JuanDaugherty: very likely I'd say
2014-04-04T08:36:44Z loke_: I recognise a lot of the ideas presented in that document. Interesting read.
2014-04-04T08:36:50Z JuanDaugherty: also the number is very low
2014-04-04T08:37:06Z loke_: Yes. RFC-1 was in 1969, I think
2014-04-04T08:37:39Z JuanDaugherty: i just did some work on EPP this year and they are in the 1400s
2014-04-04T08:37:57Z JuanDaugherty: or 1500s
2014-04-04T08:38:11Z loke_: What is EPP?
2014-04-04T08:38:33Z JuanDaugherty: sorry 5700s
2014-04-04T08:38:57Z loke_: There are some still-relevant protocols defined in RPC's in the 400's
2014-04-04T08:39:05Z JuanDaugherty: it's the thing that's used between registries and registrars
2014-04-04T08:39:30Z JuanDaugherty: its all XML schema driven, kind of nice
2014-04-04T08:40:14Z JuanDaugherty: the message traffic is literally controlled/driven by the IETF RFC schemata in the better implementations
2014-04-04T08:40:33Z JuanDaugherty: ie. the .xsd files
2014-04-04T08:40:58Z JuanDaugherty: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5730
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2014-04-04T08:42:36Z loke_: JuanDaugherty: What is stis stuff used for?
2014-04-04T08:42:48Z JuanDaugherty: stis?
2014-04-04T08:42:53Z loke_: this
2014-04-04T08:44:05Z JuanDaugherty: EPP? What I said. It's what all the central DNS registries, top level domain name providers reguire registrars to use in thier ops
2014-04-04T08:44:13Z loke_: Ah
2014-04-04T08:44:21Z JuanDaugherty: all the ICANN ones anywho
2014-04-04T08:44:26Z loke_: You said registers. Not what kind of register :-)
2014-04-04T08:44:36Z loke_: DNS was the key word I needed :-)
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2014-04-04T08:44:46Z JuanDaugherty: oh sorry, I've been up more than 24hes
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2014-04-04T08:45:45Z loke_: I remember being up for 56 hours (with 2 x 15 minutes sleeps)
2014-04-04T08:46:00Z loke_: Back when I was younger :-)
2014-04-04T08:46:18Z loke_: I suppose I could do it again, but there is less need to :-)
2014-04-04T08:46:52Z H4ns: the excitement of staying up long wears out over the years, too.
2014-04-04T08:47:03Z JuanDaugherty: i love my work and I'm self employed so ... .
2014-04-04T08:47:26Z H4ns: JuanDaugherty: quality work requires regular sleeping
2014-04-04T08:47:37Z JuanDaugherty: I've always held that
2014-04-04T08:47:42Z H4ns: JuanDaugherty: and you "oh sorry, I've been up more than 24hes" speaks for itself :)
2014-04-04T08:47:46Z H4ns: oops, off topic!
2014-04-04T08:47:48Z H4ns: :D
2014-04-04T08:47:58Z loke_: H4ns: depends on what kin dof work you are doing
2014-04-04T08:48:21Z JuanDaugherty: so what's the most exciting thing in lisp these days?
2014-04-04T08:48:37Z JuanDaugherty: noteworthy, whatever
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2014-04-04T08:48:51Z loke_: But yeah, I remember spending an entire night trying to fix a bug (demo-programming, Atari ST, demo party, deadline... etc...). Decided to sleep for a few hours some time next morning. Woke up. 15 minutes later the bug was sqsuished.
2014-04-04T08:49:43Z JuanDaugherty: oh I'm way to ole stay up for any reason other than being on a productive/creative roll
2014-04-04T08:49:50Z JuanDaugherty: to
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2014-04-04T08:50:39Z JuanDaugherty: is any implementation making llvm it's main target?
2014-04-04T08:50:45Z JuanDaugherty: *its
2014-04-04T08:51:31Z JuanDaugherty: or doing anything interesting down to the metal sozusprechen like that?
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2014-04-04T08:56:42Z loke_: I remember seeing that discussed
2014-04-04T08:56:53Z loke_: IIRC, there are issues with GC-based languages and LLVM
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2014-04-04T08:59:13Z gay4pay: thanks loke_
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2014-04-04T09:07:50Z JuanDaugherty: hmm
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2014-04-04T09:51:26Z easye: Anyone know a pure CL way to convert an SVG to a PNG?
2014-04-04T09:51:50Z H4ns: easye: there is none.  you'd need an svg renderer for that.
2014-04-04T09:52:24Z easye: Ok.  I thought there might be one... or a bit-level graphics buffer abstraction somewhere.
2014-04-04T09:52:45Z H4ns: that's something else.
2014-04-04T09:53:03Z easye: Does PDF take SVG?  If I could composite SVG images into a PDF, that would work for my purposes.
2014-04-04T09:53:03Z H4ns: but svg is a pretty large spec, it is not easy to implement correctly and completly.
2014-04-04T09:53:47Z easye: Agreed that SVG is large.  cl-svg works well for what I'm doing, but IE 8 doesn't display SVG.
2014-04-04T09:54:08Z easye: Ok.  Thanks for the gut check...
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2014-04-04T10:11:30Z loke_: cl-rsvg?
2014-04-04T10:11:49Z loke_: you should be able to use it to render to a cairso surface, which can be exported to PNG, yes?
2014-04-04T10:12:27Z H4ns: he asked for a "pure cl" solution, for whatever reason :)
2014-04-04T10:12:53Z loke_: Hmm... I read that as in "Something that doesn't force me to use any language other than CL"
2014-04-04T10:13:01Z loke_: as opposed to "implemented in pure CL"
2014-04-04T10:13:12Z H4ns: hm, i might have been misreading.
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2014-04-04T10:48:58Z pjb: easye: If you want a pure CL solution, you can make one by using a C library, and compiling it with Vacietis (C to CL compiler).
2014-04-04T10:49:50Z pjb: So you could use any svg to bitmap C library and compile it (and possibly "port" it) to CL.  You'd get a pure CL solution in the sense that no FFI would be involved.
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2014-04-04T12:36:00Z dkcl: :%
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2014-04-04T12:36:06Z dkcl: Oops
2014-04-04T12:36:39Z Poenikatu: Hello. Could somebody explain the difference between a "binding" and an "assignment"?
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2014-04-04T12:41:42Z splittist: Poenikatu: have you read the CLHS glossary entry for binding?
2014-04-04T12:41:59Z Poenikatu: splittist: Yes
2014-04-04T12:42:45Z Poenikatu: splittist: In one page of the CLHS, it said "this is a binding, not an assignment" I don't remember where
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2014-04-04T12:44:51Z splittist:  Wikipedia starts its discussion of assignment by saying "an assignment statement sets and/or re-sets the value stored in the storage location(s) denoted by a variable name"
2014-04-04T12:45:25Z Poenikatu: splittist: I've now read the glossary entry for "assign". Interesting and sheds light on the difference between "binding" and "assignment"
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2014-04-04T12:46:34Z Poenikatu: splittist: About Wikipedia: Fair enough, but a "binding" appears to create a variable.
2014-04-04T12:46:59Z splittist: Poenikatu: so if someone asked you the same question, how would you now answer them?
2014-04-04T12:47:03Z Poenikatu: splittist: Whereas an "assignment" merely replaces the value bound to a name.
2014-04-04T12:47:53Z Poenikatu: splittist: A "binding" establishes an association between a name and a value. Assignment would change the value.
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2014-04-04T12:52:28Z splittist: Poenikatu: close enough for government work (:
2014-04-04T12:52:45Z Poenikatu: splittist: Is that what you do?
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2014-04-04T12:59:26Z splittist: Pretty much. "A 'binding' establishes an association between a name and a thing. One type of thing is a 'variable', which stores an object. An 'assignment' changes the object stored by the variable." I probably wouldn't mention lexical, dynamic and constant variables straight away. Although 'constant variable' is such a cool name...
2014-04-04T13:00:22Z Poenikatu: splittist: Cool? Oxymoronic more like it
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2014-04-04T13:01:19Z splittist: Only in English.
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2014-04-04T13:03:24Z splittist: How much space do all the quicklisp libraries take up?
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2014-04-04T13:04:52Z Xach: splittist: the archives, or unpacked?
2014-04-04T13:05:03Z splittist: unpacked
2014-04-04T13:05:34Z Xach checks
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2014-04-04T13:11:12Z Xach: splittist: 540MB
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2014-04-04T13:11:23Z Xach: 148MB of archives
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2014-04-04T13:12:40Z splittist: Xach: miniscule!
2014-04-04T13:12:46Z zacharias_ is now known as zacharias
2014-04-04T13:12:58Z Xach: yes indeed
2014-04-04T13:13:06Z Xach: my AWS bill this month was $4.77
2014-04-04T13:13:11Z Xach checks the breakdown
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2014-04-04T13:16:31Z Xach: heh, $1.63 of that is their dns hosting, $0.68 is file storage and transfer fees, $2.46 for CDN
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2014-04-04T13:29:55Z theos: thats too much!
2014-04-04T13:30:27Z Xach: perhaps
2014-04-04T13:33:42Z Krystof: Clearly we need 1000x as many lisp users
2014-04-04T13:33:48Z Krystof: then Xach will start sweating
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2014-04-04T13:34:36Z Shinmera: A torrent format for distribution would be interesting as a mitigation technique.
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2014-04-04T14:01:28Z nydel: writing a simple protocol for messaging (and hopefully soon a MUD) is really complex!
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2014-04-04T14:20:31Z dkcl: nydel: Are you using UDP?
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2014-04-04T14:21:02Z dkcl: nydel: You could also take a look at #:zmq
2014-04-04T14:21:21Z dkcl: http://zeromq.org/
2014-04-04T14:21:22Z nydel: dkcl: right now i'm using streams but i have a feeling that might not be best
2014-04-04T14:21:27Z dlowe: I can't imagine trying to start a MUD in this day and age.
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2014-04-04T14:21:43Z dlowe: and I say this as someone that runs a MUD
2014-04-04T14:21:59Z dkcl: nydel: I recommend the bindings that are on github (lisp-zmq) and quicklisp (:zmq) instead of the official ones
2014-04-04T14:22:20Z dkcl: dlowe: Oh, you run a MUD? Can I get a link to some info?
2014-04-04T14:22:30Z dlowe: dkcl: http://tempusmud.net/
2014-04-04T14:22:38Z nydel: dlowe: i'd love to see your MUD!
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2014-04-04T14:22:54Z nydel: thanks dkcl this gives me good stuff to research
2014-04-04T14:23:49Z dkcl: dlowe: Lisp server, Java client?
2014-04-04T14:24:00Z dkcl: Or 100% Java?
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2014-04-04T14:24:07Z dlowe: dkcl: uh, 0% java.
2014-04-04T14:24:29Z dkcl: It does say "connect via java client"
2014-04-04T14:24:30Z nydel: 0% java, hot
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2014-04-04T14:24:43Z oGMo: dkcl: probably a java telnet :p
2014-04-04T14:24:47Z dlowe: yes, there's a client you can use from the web. It's in java.
2014-04-04T14:24:49Z dkcl: It does seem to be :P
2014-04-04T14:24:59Z dkcl: So CL for the rest?
2014-04-04T14:25:13Z oGMo: (and, you could technically write a "java" client in CL with ABCL)
2014-04-04T14:25:19Z dlowe: Nope. I inherited it.
2014-04-04T14:25:27Z dlowe: like, 14 years ago
2014-04-04T14:25:44Z nydel: oh it is making me try to install java which apparently i didn't already do on this linux laptop
2014-04-04T14:25:44Z dkcl: oGMo: Yeah, I was going to look into that one of these days, since I don't like Clojure.
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2014-04-04T14:25:58Z dkcl: Haha
2014-04-04T14:26:15Z dlowe suggests just using telnet or a real mud client.
2014-04-04T14:26:55Z dlowe: anyway, I'm being discouraging here. Write a cool game with pretty graphics, not a text mud.
2014-04-04T14:26:57Z dkcl: I'm not sure whether ECL or ABCL would be better for mobiles devices and the like. What do you think?
2014-04-04T14:27:24Z dkcl: nydel:
2014-04-04T14:27:26Z dlowe: Common Lisp implementations tend toward the heavy side.
2014-04-04T14:27:45Z dkcl: I'm getting pretty tired of writing C clients for my CL servers, though
2014-04-04T14:27:57Z dlowe: If you could get ECL to work, that'd probably be better
2014-04-04T14:28:27Z dlowe: I've also gotten KawaScheme to run with Android, but then you give up the CL goodness
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2014-04-04T14:29:12Z dkcl: Well, it's all server-based, really. So I just want some Lispy convenience when writing the clients, and not bitbashing
2014-04-04T14:29:16Z nydel: there was a lisp that worked for iOS development..hmm
2014-04-04T14:29:29Z nydel: mocl
2014-04-04T14:30:10Z nydel: but it has a crazy license and you need that xcode thing which nobody can seem to get runnning on linux
2014-04-04T14:30:12Z dkcl: dlowe > nydel: And what would you suggest for pretty graphics? CLX?
2014-04-04T14:30:23Z dlowe: dkcl: depends on the platform, no?
2014-04-04T14:30:41Z dlowe: I've used SDL and OpenGL from sbcl. It worked fine.
2014-04-04T14:30:53Z dkcl: Nice
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2014-04-04T14:31:25Z nydel: with mocl, since it worked as part of xcode, you could use any of the other supported languages and gui doohickeys alongside the cl
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2014-04-04T14:33:25Z dkcl: dlowe: Plain CFFI for OpenGL?
2014-04-04T14:34:01Z nydel: dlowe: can i play your MUD without java somehow, maybe connect via telnet or something
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2014-04-04T14:36:31Z dlowe: nydel: it's not really about CL, so let's take it off channel
2014-04-04T14:36:36Z dlowe: dkcl: there's an interface library
2014-04-04T14:36:52Z dlowe: or there was. I haven't actually messed with it in a long time.
2014-04-04T14:37:15Z dlowe: dkcl: https://github.com/dlowe-net/hello-gl
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2014-04-04T14:42:08Z oGMo: sbcl's get-internal-run-time doesn't return in internal-time-units?
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2014-04-04T14:44:00Z oGMo: ah maybe if it only counts R time
2014-04-04T14:44:02Z dkcl: dlowe: Thanks!
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2014-04-04T14:45:08Z dkcl: That's lovely indeed
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2014-04-04T15:29:00Z Poenikatu: I am trying to understand the ASDF manual where it explains how to configure where fasls are kept. The DSL syntax gives (dir-spec dir-spec) for specifying a directory. What are the two specs used for?
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2014-04-04T15:35:36Z pjb: Poenikatu: I'd guess it's the source dir vs. the destination dir.  Ie. the dir of the .lisp and the dir of the .fasl files.
2014-04-04T15:36:11Z pjb: So you could store fasl for different projects in different directories.
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2014-04-04T15:38:39Z bjorkintosh: i thought quicklisp was king now?
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2014-04-04T15:38:54Z H4ns: bjorkintosh: so?
2014-04-04T15:39:11Z bjorkintosh: does that not render asdf obsolete?
2014-04-04T15:39:17Z dlowe: quicklisp uses asdf :p
2014-04-04T15:39:23Z H4ns: bjorkintosh: not at all.
2014-04-04T15:39:50Z dlowe: asdf-install is certainly obsolete, but the two are unconnected.
2014-04-04T15:40:08Z bjorkintosh: oh that's something else entirely then.
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2014-04-04T15:44:14Z Poenikatu: pjb: Sorry for the delay in replying. Yes, Ok, I understand
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2014-04-04T15:46:25Z Poenikatu: pjb: Worked like a charm. Many thanks
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2014-04-04T16:16:44Z Xach will never be free of the asdf/asdf-install confusion :~(
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2014-04-04T16:25:42Z derek_c: is it possible to call Lisp functions from C?
2014-04-04T16:26:48Z oGMo: derek_c: sortof
2014-04-04T16:27:23Z oGMo: derek_c: with ECL, it may be relatively easy (not sure) ... otherwise, if you load a C shared library in CL, you can establish CL callbacks in most implementations
2014-04-04T16:28:05Z oGMo: in CCL, i think it's technically possible to generate a shared lib and call into that as well, but no idea how
2014-04-04T16:28:17Z LiamH: http://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/html_node/Tutorial_002dCallbacks.html#Tutorial_002dCallbacks
2014-04-04T16:28:27Z oGMo: that^
2014-04-04T16:28:33Z oGMo: callbacks are the easiest and most portable
2014-04-04T16:28:56Z derek_c: great, thanks!
2014-04-04T16:29:05Z derek_c: is sbcl the state of arts for common lisp?
2014-04-04T16:29:29Z oGMo: heh .. well it's pretty good, most people here use it primarily i believe
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2014-04-04T16:30:37Z derek_c: ok thanks :)
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2014-04-04T16:38:37Z JuanDaugherty: anybody know of or recommend a CL two factor authentication pkg
2014-04-04T16:38:39Z JuanDaugherty: ?
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2014-04-04T17:37:23Z JuanDaugherty: is cliki the main/best repo at this time?
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2014-04-04T17:41:23Z jasom: JuanDaugherty: If you can guess the name, you can search quicklisp
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2014-04-04T17:42:26Z JuanDaugherty: right, that's the point, I want a discoverable repo with either a categorization like cliki or a search function
2014-04-04T17:42:39Z JuanDaugherty: and some wide spread adoption of course
2014-04-04T17:42:56Z jasom: JuanDaugherty: what kinde of 2fa?
2014-04-04T17:43:16Z jasom: Something like ironclad or cl+ssl might have some sort of OTP support
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2014-04-04T17:44:21Z JuanDaugherty: jasom, just an OTP thang i can reuse, not super picky but would prefer lisp or haskell
2014-04-04T17:44:24Z jasom: hmm cl-totp seems to do that
2014-04-04T17:44:48Z JuanDaugherty: thx! will check it out
2014-04-04T17:44:51Z jasom: bhyde: How well used is cl-totp?
2014-04-04T17:45:19Z jasom: there's also cl-htop from the same author
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2014-04-04T17:47:14Z JuanDaugherty: cl-totp appears to 41 SLOC
2014-04-04T17:47:18Z JuanDaugherty: be
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2014-04-04T17:50:13Z JuanDaugherty: roll ur own w ironclad in ur env of choice seems to be the course
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2014-04-04T17:52:23Z jasom: JuanDaugherty: it does appear to be 41 sloc, but it allso appears to work...
2014-04-04T17:53:07Z JuanDaugherty: yeah that still counts don't it
2014-04-04T17:53:54Z jasom: I keep on meening to make libsalt bindings
2014-04-04T17:54:02Z jasom: I'm not sure how much I trust ironclad
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2014-04-04T17:54:32Z jasom: It's probably good except for cases where timing attacks are an issue
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2014-04-04T17:55:16Z jasom: er libsodium not libsalt
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2014-04-04T17:56:45Z JuanDaugherty: make a factor supplied by the user's private memory at the point of use of the OTP eliminates a timing attack
2014-04-04T17:56:54Z JuanDaugherty: *making
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2014-04-04T18:05:13Z Gmind: hi guys..
2014-04-04T18:05:40Z Gmind: have anyone tried Fist class Lisp ( on .NET ) ?
2014-04-04T18:06:03Z didi: How does SLIME make synchronous calls? I see it sends forms to the inferior lisp and register continuations with ids so the filter function can read the returned forms and call these continuations. But in the case of synchronous calls, how does it block until something returns?
2014-04-04T18:09:24Z Odin-: Gmind: What's that?
2014-04-04T18:09:41Z H4ns: Odin-: it is off topic
2014-04-04T18:10:14Z Odin-: H4ns: Ah. So not ABCL-ish?
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2014-04-04T18:10:44Z H4ns: Odin-: go google yourself
2014-04-04T18:10:56Z Gmind: Odin- how about Mjonir , your son's hammer
2014-04-04T18:11:55Z jasom: Gmind: you mean Mjölnir?
2014-04-04T18:12:04Z Gmind: Yep
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2014-04-04T18:12:25Z jasom: That's also off topic for a channel about Common Lisp
2014-04-04T18:12:35Z Gmind: I removed "l" character for my lisp compiler on .NET
2014-04-04T18:13:09Z Odin-: Gmind: Mythology or some namesake?
2014-04-04T18:13:37Z Gmind: jasom, sorry about that
2014-04-04T18:13:56Z Gmind: Odin- you found First Class Lisp ?
2014-04-04T18:14:17Z jasom: Gmind: np I'm one of the worst offenders for OT stuff in here, probably.
2014-04-04T18:14:39Z Gmind: anyway, what should I do when my Common Lisp program run too slow ?
2014-04-04T18:15:07Z Gmind: ( even when I use ABCL )
2014-04-04T18:15:37Z Odin-: Gmind: Yes. And agree that it strays a fair bit off-topic...
2014-04-04T18:16:16Z Gmind: Odin-, would that be fine if other Lisp family language users can learn from each other here ?
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2014-04-04T18:18:07Z Odin-: Gmind: The problem is that despite the name, this channel is not a general Lisp channel, but particularly about Common Lisp ... me, I don't mind off-topic, but that's not generally true, I think...
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2014-04-04T18:19:10Z oleo: the question remains as to why it was not named #common-lisp or ##common-lisp then....
2014-04-04T18:19:14Z H4ns: if you want to discuss other lisps, you can open up a channel
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2014-04-04T18:22:27Z Gmind: oleo, agree
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2014-04-04T18:22:47Z oleo: otherwise i'm fine with it....
2014-04-04T18:22:52Z Gmind: H4ns well , I want to see some hard core lisper here
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2014-04-04T18:32:08Z dlowe: hm. why isn't ##lisp populated?
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2014-04-04T18:32:20Z dlowe: that'd be a fine place to send general lisp discussion
2014-04-04T18:32:38Z dlowe: The ## prefix is supposed to be unmoderated, too
2014-04-04T18:34:19Z Gmind: hey, if a lisp is , without its interpreter, then it's no longer a lisp, right ?
2014-04-04T18:34:39Z Krystof: wrong
2014-04-04T18:34:44Z H4ns: Gmind: ##lisp would be a fine place to discuss that
2014-04-04T18:35:56Z c74d: Doesn’t ## just mean that it’s not owned by a group?
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2014-04-04T18:37:15Z c74d: <http://www.freenode.net/policy.shtml#topicalchannels> — nothing about being un-moderated here.
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2014-04-04T18:38:40Z dlowe: Yes, but in the previous section "Groups on freenode which clearly do not have claim on a name, or whose activities are considered to be off-topic, will not generally be given administrative control over primary channels bearing a given name or name prefix."
2014-04-04T18:39:03Z dlowe: so clearly the standard of ownership is lower for ## channels
2014-04-04T18:40:16Z Gmind: .... Oh , ok. I leave.
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2014-04-04T18:40:39Z c74d: Maybe I mistook what you meant by “unmoderated”.
2014-04-04T18:40:53Z dlowe: "less fussy" :D
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2014-04-04T18:41:20Z whartung: well, any channel with an operator on is potentially moderated...
2014-04-04T18:41:35Z dlowe: anyway, enough meta.
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2014-04-04T18:42:56Z dlowe: I made a thing: http://paste.lisp.org/display/141918
2014-04-04T18:43:12Z dlowe: It's a small implementation of python's "with" statement
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2014-04-04T18:44:47Z whartung: what does python's with statement do?
2014-04-04T18:45:12Z whartung: oic the example at the bottom
2014-04-04T18:45:20Z dlowe: http://effbot.org/zone/python-with-statement.htm
2014-04-04T18:45:35Z dlowe: it's kind of like an object-oriented unwind-protect
2014-04-04T18:45:59Z jasom: dlowe: what about #lispcafe
2014-04-04T18:46:29Z dlowe: jasom: I think the name throws people off.
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2014-04-04T18:47:05Z dlowe: plus, lispcafe is about anything
2014-04-04T18:47:37Z dlowe: it's useful to have a place to send people who want to talk about lisp specifically, but not specifically common lisp
2014-04-04T18:47:43Z dlowe: at least, it might be useful
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2014-04-04T19:10:47Z jasom: ##lispy?  ##sexp?
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2014-04-04T19:11:53Z jasom: Also see the several-hundred response flamewar on c.l.l about whether or not scheme is a lisp.
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2014-04-04T19:16:38Z dlowe: I don't understand if you're trying to say something, nor what that thing might be
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2014-04-04T19:19:18Z jasom: Just suggesting other possible names for channels about "lisp specifically" and noting that pinning down what specifically is a lisp can be contentious
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2014-04-04T19:24:10Z H4ns: i like to be in #lisp because it is mostly about common lisp.  i don't care about people who want to discuss their toy lisp.  if they want a channel, let them have one.  #lisp is not it.
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2014-04-04T19:25:03Z j_king: says it right in the topic.
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2014-04-04T19:34:08Z dlowe: this is the Internet. There is nothing that is not contentious. :p
2014-04-04T19:34:34Z dlowe: that's no reason not to do things.
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2014-04-04T19:53:22Z jasom: H4ns: the idea is for us to make a channel so that we can point those people to one place, which should (in theory) keep this channel more on-topic.
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2014-04-04T19:57:20Z yrk: if this channel is about common lisp it should be called #common-lisp. pretty simple solution that makes sense, eliminates doubt and has no downsides
2014-04-04T19:59:33Z Code_Man`: totally people come here expecting this to be about all kinds of lisps come here all the time
2014-04-04T19:59:42Z Shinmera: It has the downside that historically it's been about Common Lisp for years now.
2014-04-04T20:00:20Z dlowe: unfortunately, #cl is about Chile.
2014-04-04T20:01:00Z H4ns: jasom: if we point them to an empty channel, they'll not be better off
2014-04-04T20:01:40Z H4ns: jasom: they generally want to discuss with "us" ("hardcore lispers"), but "we" don't want to discuss.  so there is no actual solution except telling them to bugger off
2014-04-04T20:02:05Z dlowe: if we point enough of them, it won't be empty
2014-04-04T20:02:29Z H4ns: *chuckle*
2014-04-04T20:02:30Z dlowe: and I, in fact, would like to discuss people's toy lisps as well as CL, though not necessarily in the same space
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2014-04-04T20:33:15Z yrk: H4ns: is that how you want the lisp community to be seen? are you happy with this situation?
2014-04-04T20:35:05Z H4ns: yrk: i don't see lisp to define that much of a well-bounded community.
2014-04-04T20:36:10Z H4ns: yrk: lisp is more of a concept that every well-respecting programmer should have some exposure to during their career.
2014-04-04T20:36:19Z H4ns: self-respecting, of course.
2014-04-04T20:36:55Z H4ns: yrk: but the different lisp dialects are way too different to warrant lumping everything lisp together into one community and then demanding that everybody be talking to each other.
2014-04-04T20:37:12Z yrk: H4ns: agreed, hence #common-lisp
2014-04-04T20:37:23Z H4ns: yrk: #lisp is about common lisp, period.
2014-04-04T20:37:47Z H4ns: yrk: people who are not able to understand that don't get my sympathy.
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2014-04-04T20:38:37Z nyef: ... Used to be that #lisp was about SBCL, period, but they set their mandate a little too loosely to keep it that way. But the mandate doesn't extend beyond Common Lisp.
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2014-04-04T20:39:54Z Code_Man`: yeah lets tell all the schemers who come here to go fuck themselfs (sarcasm)
2014-04-04T20:40:12Z H4ns: in the end, if people start talking about their toy lisps here and that becomes socially acceptable, i'll probably just leave at that point, and if there is a #common-lisp at that point that takes over what #lisp is right now, i'll probably join that. for the moment, i'm good with the situation.
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2014-04-04T20:41:15Z Code_Man`: lisp simply isnt common lisp and not even by definition
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2014-04-04T20:41:50Z joga: at least it's the "common" lisp :)
2014-04-04T20:42:05Z H4ns: #lisp is about common lisp, how hard is that to understand?
2014-04-04T20:42:24Z Code_Man`: while it was made to make a common denominator for all the scattered lisp dialects in the 80s some have not been common-lisp-ified
2014-04-04T20:42:41Z Code_Man`: emacs-lisp is as much a lisp as is common-lisp
2014-04-04T20:44:05Z joga: H4ns, if you look it from the perspective of someone looking for a channel about a certain topic, it is confusing to not have #common-lisp be the channel for common lisp, since they don't happen to know that actually #lisp is the one
2014-04-04T20:44:06Z Code_Man`: not even mentioning that people have adopted the scheme and new-lisp as being "lisp" aswell
2014-04-04T20:44:09Z wheelsucker: "common" isn't adjectival in this case. It's part of a proper noun.
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2014-04-04T20:44:31Z nyef: And don't the schemers have their own channel anyway?
2014-04-04T20:44:43Z joga: like joining #drugs and getting scolded for talking about anything else than lsd or whatever, heh
2014-04-04T20:45:27Z yrk: the problem is that the people in here care about a particular code base, and don't have any impetus to move
2014-04-04T20:45:35Z joga: dunno, would expect there to be a scheme channel
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2014-04-04T20:46:06Z yrk: unfortunately, that has the side-effect of sometimes sending a negative message about lisp to people arriving at this channel
2014-04-04T20:46:10Z Vivitron: It's like joining #drugs and not checking the topic to see if it's pharmaceutical or recreational, then telling the channel it got its topic wrong
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2014-04-04T20:46:46Z joga: Vivitron, okay that particular word is bad because it does have double meaning in english
2014-04-04T20:47:09Z joga: (in Finnish for example there are two separate words and there would be separate channels for each)
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2014-04-04T20:47:47Z Code_Man`: there is no seperate meaning it just different effects
2014-04-04T20:47:54Z Code_Man`: and uses
2014-04-04T20:48:02Z therik: and dealers
2014-04-04T20:48:18Z Code_Man`: most recreational drugs are pharmaceutical too
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2014-04-04T20:49:14Z Code_Man`: infact its just different use and effects for bioactive substances
2014-04-04T20:49:39Z joga: well anyway, there are two distinct words for these things in Finnish, regardless of pharmaceutical facts
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2014-04-04T20:50:07Z Code_Man`: interesting to know
2014-04-04T20:50:24Z joga: and just saying that if you were to look for a channel that dealt with the other one, you'd probably know what to type
2014-04-04T20:50:36Z therik: :D
2014-04-04T20:50:59Z joga: (the distinction is mostly about legality)
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2014-04-04T20:57:22Z yrk: if someone decides one day to try and create and nurture a lisp community, it's just one of the things they will need to get done (and that's all I have to say)
2014-04-04T20:58:48Z H4ns: yrk: it has been done quite a few times.
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2014-04-04T21:46:20Z gay4pay: what would it mean if a subnet is 1.0.0.0?
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2014-04-04T21:46:56Z antoszka: gay4pay: where's the subnet?
2014-04-04T21:47:11Z gay4pay: it's a theoretical question
2014-04-04T21:47:18Z gay4pay: i'm trying to understand how it works
2014-04-04T21:47:40Z antoszka: Your question is missing data, as far as I can see. There's no netmask.
2014-04-04T21:48:06Z p_l: 1.0.0.0 is a legal network address for what was in the old times an "A-class" network i.e. all addresses from 1.0.0.0 to 1.255.255.255 would belong to the network 1.0.0.0
2014-04-04T21:48:39Z gay4pay: how are you guys so smart?
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2014-04-04T21:48:57Z antoszka: Yep, but that wouldn't be a *subnet* (by the old terms), by an A-class network, as p_l says.
2014-04-04T21:48:59Z gay4pay: i feel like i have a learning disability and i'm not cut out for this stuff as much as i want to learn it
2014-04-04T21:49:24Z p_l: gay4pay: meh. It's just a case of some of us having spent more time
2014-04-04T21:49:30Z p_l: (and possibly better sources)
2014-04-04T21:49:38Z gay4pay: i'm on pluralsight
2014-04-04T21:49:51Z gay4pay: could you please give me some better sources
2014-04-04T21:50:32Z p_l: hard to say. The network details... some materials from Cisco courses might be useful, and there's probably a bunch of study guides etc. available legally on the net
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2014-04-04T21:51:42Z antoszka: gay4pay: What OS are you using for your everyday tasks?
2014-04-04T21:51:52Z gay4pay: windows
2014-04-04T21:52:03Z Xach: Friends, let us chat about Common Lisp.
2014-04-04T21:52:40Z gay4pay: okay xach... i am studying lisp and i want to develop a program that talks to other computers... that is why i have all these network related questions
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2014-04-04T21:53:56Z antoszka: Yeah – last thing, before I shut up, Windows isn't very tinker-friendly.
2014-04-04T21:54:00Z p_l: gay4pay: you probably don't need to care about subnets in network programming for now, though. As long as you can get a listen socket and accept connections on it, and connect another socket to it, you should be good for starters
2014-04-04T21:54:12Z p_l: even on windows (CCL with usocket works)
2014-04-04T21:54:18Z antoszka: gay4pay: Which common lisp are you toying around with?
2014-04-04T21:54:27Z gay4pay: this one
2014-04-04T21:54:33Z p_l is temporarily off
2014-04-04T21:54:46Z gay4pay: http://www.amazon.com/Land-Lisp-Learn-Program-Game/dp/1593272812/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1396648477&sr=8-1&keywords=land+of+lisp
2014-04-04T21:54:50Z gay4pay: the cover isiso nice
2014-04-04T21:54:55Z gay4pay: is so*
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2014-04-04T21:55:24Z gay4pay: i want to make my business cards from the same material they made the cover
2014-04-04T21:55:52Z antoszka: gay4pay: I meant – which implementation. The book suggests that you use clisp, AFAIR. I'm not sure it's available for Windows at all.
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2014-04-04T21:56:31Z gay4pay: for programming i use my laptop with linux instaled
2014-04-04T21:56:38Z gay4pay: for every day tasks i use windows
2014-04-04T21:56:56Z antoszka: Ah, ok. Good enough. And yeah, clisp should be available for windows as well.
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2014-04-04T22:50:16Z jasom: gay4pay: honestly I didn't really get *any* of the network stuff very well until I interned at a data-switch company
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2014-04-04T22:51:12Z jasom: The only downside was my undergraduate-level networking course was super-boring after doing that.
2014-04-04T22:52:05Z jasom: clisp had the best windows support of any lisp when I last checked seriously (which was about 5 years ago, so it's probably all wrong now)
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2014-04-05T01:02:26Z jasom: therik: https://github.com/jasom/spm-reader
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2014-04-05T01:11:41Z ZeroCool: hi
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2014-04-05T01:50:38Z robot-beethoven: what's one of the simpler expression for checking that a pathname:  a) exists,  b) is a directory, and  c) is empty?
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2014-04-05T02:00:10Z derek_c: newbie question: you can't override functions with defun?
2014-04-05T02:01:38Z robot-beethoven: derek_c: do you mean re-define, or shadow (within some scope)?
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2014-04-05T02:06:23Z derek_c: robot-beethoven: I'm doint (defun double ...) in the global scope
2014-04-05T02:06:28Z derek_c: *doing*
2014-04-05T02:07:01Z derek_c: getting a weird error: Lock on package SB-ALIEN violated when setting fdefinition of DOUBLE while in package COMMON-LISP-USER.
2014-04-05T02:07:04Z derek_c: using sbcl
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2014-04-05T02:11:41Z rk[afk] is now known as rk[1]
2014-04-05T02:12:39Z phadthai: derek_c: there is a package lock, which on some implementations can be disabled, but you might want to instead shadow the double symbol in another package instead, then you can redefine it
2014-04-05T02:13:53Z phadthai: derek_c: i.e. see http://cvs.pulsar-zone.net/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/mmondor/mmsoftware/cl/test/shadow-test.lisp?rev=1.1;content-type=text%2Fplain
2014-04-05T02:14:51Z phadthai: it's also possible to specify symbols to shadow in the defpackage form
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2014-04-05T03:18:41Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2014-04-05T03:22:23Z zRecursive: noon
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2014-04-05T03:33:32Z wheelsucker: Evening
2014-04-05T03:34:54Z wheelsucker: Or should I say ohayo gozaimasu?
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2014-04-05T03:39:08Z beach: The existence of time zones seems to provide endless fascination.
2014-04-05T03:39:18Z zRecursive: "ohayo gozaimasu" so complicated :)
2014-04-05T03:40:34Z zRecursive: oh, it is Japanese, isnot it?
2014-04-05T03:40:50Z wheelsucker: zRecursive: some people might think "good morning" complicated.
2014-04-05T03:41:01Z wheelsucker: yes
2014-04-05T03:41:31Z wheelsucker: or...hai!
2014-04-05T03:42:04Z zRecursive: same as say hello to sb
2014-04-05T03:43:09Z wheelsucker: timezones are a quantification of the earth's rotation.
2014-04-05T03:43:25Z beach: OK, I need some help interpreting 6.1.1.7 of the CLHS.
2014-04-05T03:43:31Z wheelsucker: ya gotta draw the line somewhere
2014-04-05T03:43:47Z beach: "During loop expansion, each variable in the variable list is matched with the values in the values list. If there are more variables in the variable list than there are values in the values list, the remaining variables are given a value of nil. If there are more values than variables listed, the extra values are discarded. "
2014-04-05T03:43:51Z wheelsucker: ...or 24 lines, as the case may be.
2014-04-05T03:43:59Z wheelsucker: 23 lines?
2014-04-05T03:44:01Z wheelsucker: 23
2014-04-05T03:44:40Z wheelsucker: beach: I can't do this on beer.
2014-04-05T03:44:51Z wheelsucker: beach:sorry.
2014-04-05T03:44:56Z zRecursive: beach: seems no problem
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2014-04-05T03:45:45Z beach: What variable list and values list are they talking about?
2014-04-05T03:47:54Z wheelsucker: is this for the loop macro?
2014-04-05T03:48:01Z wheelsucker: oy.
2014-04-05T03:48:02Z zRecursive: those in loop
2014-04-05T03:48:14Z beach: wheelsucker: Yes.
2014-04-05T03:48:31Z beach: wheelsucker: I'll ask you some day when you are not on beer.
2014-04-05T03:49:02Z phadthai: hmm   with (foo bar baz quux) = (1 2 3 4)  variables list at lest, values list at right in this example
2014-04-05T03:49:11Z phadthai: s/lest/left/
2014-04-05T03:49:15Z wheelsucker: so...what's the question, specifically
2014-04-05T03:49:33Z wheelsucker: beach: ggod luck with that.
2014-04-05T03:49:39Z wheelsucker: good
2014-04-05T03:50:03Z beach: phadthai: That might be it.  I'll think about it.  Thanks.
2014-04-05T03:51:32Z beach: Wow, the LOOP specification is not as good as the rest of the CLHS.
2014-04-05T03:52:02Z phadthai: it's also awkward that the loop destructuring is not identical to the destructuring-bind
2014-04-05T03:52:28Z beach: phadthai: Hmm.  What is the difference?
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2014-04-05T03:52:47Z beach: Your example above?
2014-04-05T03:52:51Z phadthai: if I remember when I tried using &rest, &optional etc with loop it was different
2014-04-05T03:52:58Z beach: Oh, yes, true.
2014-04-05T03:53:25Z beach: No lambda list keywords allowed in LOOP as I recall.
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2014-04-05T03:53:46Z beach: I mean, they are allowed, but they are just ordinary symbols there.
2014-04-05T03:53:50Z phadthai: it might depend on implementation, but I remember seeing no error, yet the results were of course not as intended
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2014-04-05T03:54:02Z phadthai: right
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2014-04-05T04:00:15Z beach: These examples definitely go in my planned book: Common Lisp for language implementers. :)
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2014-04-05T04:09:32Z beach: So, since I asked nyef how much a function call costs these days, and he didn't know, I started a set of timing tests that could be useful for implementers: https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL/tree/master/Code/Backends/x86-64/Timing
2014-04-05T04:10:24Z beach: If anyone has something interesting to test, I will accept contributions to this set.
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2014-04-05T04:11:55Z phadthai: cool... something that helps also is when the implementation honors INLINE, or can automatically inline small functions with defined scope like lambdas
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2014-04-05T04:12:44Z beach: Sure.
2014-04-05T04:14:04Z beach: Tests like the ones above are hard to interpret these days, and the result depends on the exact implementation (i.e., the chip) of the architecture, but I think they will still supply some information.
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2014-04-05T04:15:06Z beach: I read a great book a few years back: http://www.amazon.com/Inner-Loops-Sourcebook-Software-Development/dp/0201479605
2014-04-05T04:15:22Z beach: But I think it would be impossible to be this precise nowadays.
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2014-04-05T04:59:29Z b80905: what is the name of the predicate that tests whether a character is whitespace?
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2014-04-05T05:02:48Z beach: b80905: There isn't one.
2014-04-05T05:02:48Z beach:  
2014-04-05T05:03:29Z Bike: bit unfortunate
2014-04-05T05:03:40Z b80905: beach: what character predicates are there?
2014-04-05T05:04:02Z beach: clhs 13.2
2014-04-05T05:04:02Z specbot: The Characters Dictionary: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/c_charac.htm
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2014-04-05T05:06:39Z beach: b80905: Do you not have access to the HyperSpec?
2014-04-05T05:07:33Z beach: Bike: I think the reason is that the concept of "whitespace" depends on the syntax as defined by the readtable.
2014-04-05T05:08:11Z b80905: beach: sure do
2014-04-05T05:08:20Z Bike: there's a pretty detailed definition in the glossary, though
2014-04-05T05:08:33Z Bike: i think whitespace[2]p is a predicate used in a few implementations, is why i'm thinking that
2014-04-05T05:09:28Z beach: Bike: Do these implementations require you to supply a readtable to the predicate?
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2014-04-05T05:10:37Z Bike: actually, yes, how about that https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/dacd3fc70cf2fc78677f9a8bbbb5c3b51883f1b7/src/code/reader.lisp#L129-130
2014-04-05T05:11:26Z beach: Bike: Yeah, that works.
2014-04-05T05:12:02Z Vivitron: there's an interesting implementation of it in closure-common which I think may be correct; it creates an input stream consisting of a string of the character to check, then checks whether peek-char t returns its eof value
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2014-04-05T05:14:20Z beach: Vivitron: Neat!
2014-04-05T05:15:55Z Bike: wow, roundabout.
2014-04-05T05:16:07Z beach: Yes, but portable.
2014-04-05T05:17:01Z Bike: seems like a good argument for having a real whitespacep
2014-04-05T05:17:23Z Vivitron: beach, Bike: ah, there is a repo of it online search for "this is bit tricky" http://repo.or.cz/w/closure-common.git/blob/HEAD:/syntax.lisp
2014-04-05T05:17:29Z beach: Bike: Submit a CDR!
2014-04-05T05:17:46Z Bike: i don't think i understand lisp characters enough. they're a bit crazy-lookign.
2014-04-05T05:19:05Z beach: Vivitron: Looks very gilberth-ish indeed.
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2014-04-05T05:20:47Z b80905: how do you denote the space character?
2014-04-05T05:21:02Z Bike: #\Space you mean?
2014-04-05T05:21:08Z b80905: yeah thanks
2014-04-05T05:24:08Z Vivitron: but of course "whitespace with respect to the reader" and "\s, more or less" are two different questions
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2014-04-05T05:29:24Z Bike: 's why that code i linked has both whitespace[1] and whitespace[2] :p
2014-04-05T05:30:34Z Vivitron: ah, I get it this time:)
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2014-04-05T05:54:20Z beach: phadthai: (loop with (x y) = (1 2) ...) does not appear to work in SBCL.
2014-04-05T05:54:37Z beach: phadthai: But perhaps it ought to.
2014-04-05T05:55:40Z phadthai: or maybe my example was mistaken :)
2014-04-05T05:55:59Z beach: phadthai: Hmm, but then my question remains :(
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2014-04-05T05:58:56Z phadthai: ah I think '(1 2) might work
2014-04-05T05:59:40Z beach: Wow!
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2014-04-05T06:03:26Z beach: phadthai: Thanks again for your help.  This information certainly provides food for thought.
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2014-04-05T06:05:35Z beach: (loop with (x y) = '(1) return (list y x)) => error :(
2014-04-05T06:07:22Z phadthai: hmm I admit I never tried giving more or less values than variables... this also errors on ECL for me
2014-04-05T06:07:38Z phadthai: hmm should y be nil instead?
2014-04-05T06:07:58Z beach: phadthai: If this situation were a case of the cited paragraph, then yes.
2014-04-05T06:08:13Z beach: So this makes me think that the paragraph does not apply to this situation.
2014-04-05T06:08:50Z beach: And that they instead mean something else.  (loop with (x y) = ...) is the ordinary destructuring situation which is done at runtime.
2014-04-05T06:09:03Z beach: Whereas the paragraph talks about expansion time.
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2014-04-05T06:09:39Z phadthai: as for  (loop with (x y) = '(1 2 3) return (list y x))  I get (2 1) as expected
2014-04-05T06:10:44Z beach: Now I can't remember whether that behavior is normal for the kind of destructuring that LOOP uses.
2014-04-05T06:11:17Z beach: It probably is, though.
2014-04-05T06:11:31Z phadthai: "If there are more values than variables listed, the extra values are discarded"
2014-04-05T06:11:57Z beach: Yes, but I think this is a different situation.
2014-04-05T06:12:10Z beach: Consider: (loop for (x y) on '(1 2 3) collect (list y x))
2014-04-05T06:12:13Z phadthai: I also find the "During loop expansion" confusing, because the destructuring is indeed occurring at runtime
2014-04-05T06:12:37Z beach: Right, that is what triggered my question in the first place.
2014-04-05T06:12:49Z phadthai: although at expansion time loop knows the number of variables, and possibly the number of values if they're literal
2014-04-05T06:13:27Z beach: I think your example above is a case of runtime destructuring just like my last example.
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2014-04-05T06:13:56Z beach: And so I think the case that is referred to in the paragraph I quoted must be different.
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2014-04-05T06:14:17Z phadthai: oh, this works on ECL: (loop for (x y z z2) on '(1 2 3) collect (list y x z z2))
2014-04-05T06:15:10Z beach: phadthai: On SBCL too.
2014-04-05T06:15:33Z phadthai: so WITH would expand to different destructuring code than FOR it seems
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2014-04-05T06:15:43Z beach: It seems that way :(
2014-04-05T06:15:54Z phadthai: hmm I should try &rest there
2014-04-05T06:16:26Z beach: One of the errors I got on SBCL suggested that destructuring-bind was used.
2014-04-05T06:16:51Z phadthai: ECL gave me an error at the first test, but I see it expands to a DESTRUCTURING-BIND form
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2014-04-05T06:17:23Z beach: phadthai: Anyway, don't lose any sleep over this.
2014-04-05T06:18:22Z phadthai: both LOOP implementations are also derived from the same one also, with various modifications
2014-04-05T06:18:56Z phadthai: I won't, but that's peculiar and/or ill-documented indeed
2014-04-05T06:18:58Z beach: So we need some implementations with different origins.
2014-04-05T06:20:34Z phadthai: (ECL one is based on the MIT LOOP code base)
2014-04-05T06:20:53Z phadthai: there might be few full implementations
2014-04-05T06:21:02Z beach: I fear you are right.
2014-04-05T06:21:04Z phadthai: I don't know them if there are others
2014-04-05T06:21:15Z phadthai: but I'm not a lisp guru :)
2014-04-05T06:22:08Z beach: I'll just keep asking here.  Some #lisp participants have access to commercial implementations.
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2014-04-05T06:25:27Z phadthai: are you reimplementing it, or about to chose one for the reusable lisp components?
2014-04-05T06:27:49Z beach: phadthai: I am reimplementing it.  Just like I am reimplementing all of CL.
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2014-04-05T06:28:26Z beach: phadthai: That way I find interesting bugs in widely used implementations, and also surprising inefficiencies.
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2014-04-05T06:30:49Z phadthai: I unfortunately forgot the name of the reusable pieces project for implementors, sorry, and cliki didn't help
2014-04-05T06:31:21Z beach: minion: Please tell phadthai about SICL.
2014-04-05T06:31:21Z minion: phadthai: SICL: SICL is a (perhaps futile) attempt to re-implement Common Lisp from scratch, hopefully using improved programming and bootstrapping techniques. See https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL
2014-04-05T06:31:33Z phadthai: ok, looks like a lot of work, and always nice considering there are few loop implementations
2014-04-05T06:31:36Z phadthai: thanks
2014-04-05T06:32:27Z beach: It's a lot of work indeed, but I am making good progress.
2014-04-05T06:34:18Z beach: For instance, I think my generic dispatch algorithm will be significantly fasat than the existing ones.
2014-04-05T06:34:26Z beach: s/fasat/faster/
2014-04-05T06:38:05Z phadthai: nice
2014-04-05T06:38:45Z beach: Yeah.  I think I will submit a paper to ILC about it.
2014-04-05T06:38:59Z phadthai: is the lack of the SICL reference on cliki on purpose because of its state, or could I add one?
2014-04-05T06:39:53Z beach: You could add one if you want.  Make sure you mention that there is still a long way to do and that people should not expect to be able to use it soon.
2014-04-05T06:40:05Z beach: There is a page on cl.net about it.
2014-04-05T06:40:17Z phadthai: ok
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2014-04-05T06:44:55Z phadthai: see you later
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2014-04-05T07:05:15Z beach: Hmm, Cliki should have a page for each book that is listed, rather than referring directly to the source.
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2014-04-05T07:06:28Z beach: What I find hard about the web (and good about #lisp) is that on the web it is hard to obtain comparisons and informed opinions about things, whereas here you get people's personal opinion.
2014-04-05T07:07:20Z White_Flame: looking at SICL, the one thing I'm very happy to see is a garbage collector written in Lisp itself
2014-04-05T07:07:49Z beach: White_Flame: Sure.  Why would it be written in an inferior language? :)
2014-04-05T07:07:54Z White_Flame: what's the plan with that?  will the GC execution still allocate memory as normal somewhere, while working on foreign nurseries?
2014-04-05T07:08:09Z White_Flame: is it written to be purely stack-allocated?
2014-04-05T07:08:51Z beach: Not sure what you mean.  I plan to have per-thread nurseries, and a concurrent collector for promoted objects.
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2014-04-05T07:09:59Z beach: I am hoping this organization will make it suitable for time-critical stuff like processing of sound in real time.
2014-04-05T07:10:01Z White_Flame: I'm curious if there's any interaction issues between the GC allocating memory during its own processing, and its scanning & management of the heap
2014-04-05T07:11:04Z beach: Well, the plan is to make the nursery collector run in the same thread as the mutator.
2014-04-05T07:11:15Z beach: But there are interaction issues of course.
2014-04-05T07:12:52Z beach: I haven't really tested these ideas yet, so it is hard to say what will happen.  I am thinking that there should be no back pointers form the old generation to the nurseries so as to avoid interaction between mutator threads.
2014-04-05T07:13:10Z White_Flame: right, I saw that note
2014-04-05T07:13:49Z White_Flame: so if the GC performs allocation, and runs in the mutator thread, it's allocating into the same nursery it's cleaning?
2014-04-05T07:14:25Z beach: Yes.  Each thread has its private nursery.
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2014-04-05T07:15:33Z White_Flame: meaning regular TLAB allocation I presume?
2014-04-05T07:15:45Z pjb: That doesn't sound a good strategy, if you want to not care about the garbage collector consing.
2014-04-05T07:15:51Z beach: minion: What does TLAB stand for?
2014-04-05T07:15:51Z minion: Thalamotomy Lissoflagellate Axoneure Blood
2014-04-05T07:16:16Z pjb: I'd make run the garbage collector in a separate heap.
2014-04-05T07:16:31Z White_Flame: Thread-Local Allocation Buffer, ie simple range-bound pointer-bumping allocator
2014-04-05T07:16:42Z beach: pjb: The older generation will have a separate heap, common for all threads.
2014-04-05T07:16:55Z beach: White_Flame: Basically, yes.
2014-04-05T07:17:38Z White_Flame: so, if nursery GC is triggered on the nursery filling, and the GC processing also allocates into the nursery, does the vacuum cleaner end up sucking itself in?
2014-04-05T07:18:15Z beach: Oh, I see what you mean.  I don't see why the GC should have to do any significant allocation in order to run.
2014-04-05T07:18:34Z beach: Sorry, I misunderstood before.
2014-04-05T07:19:27Z beach: In fact, it should probably do non at all.  If unavoidable, only a fixed amount.
2014-04-05T07:19:31Z White_Flame: yeah, I don't really see anything in the current code besides potential boxing with get-internal-run-time, but
2014-04-05T07:19:38Z pjb: My impression is that some compiler cons in your back.
2014-04-05T07:19:41Z White_Flame: of course it's not doing anything complex at the moment
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2014-04-05T07:19:57Z beach: pjb: But I can fix that if I write the compiler too! :)
2014-04-05T07:20:01Z pjb: When running time in sbcl, people are often surprized by the amount of consing reported.
2014-04-05T07:20:08Z pjb: Of course.
2014-04-05T07:20:39Z beach: White_Flame: I have an improvement on the typical sliding collector as documented in the literature, and it does not require any consing.
2014-04-05T07:20:49Z beach should submit that too somewhere!
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2014-04-05T07:24:59Z beach: I haven't decided whether to make the heap look like a vector of (unsigned-int 64) and make the GC use AREF and (SETF AREF) or whether to use special operators to reference memory.
2014-04-05T07:25:30Z beach: The vector idea is kind of cute because then the GC code would be portable CL.
2014-04-05T07:26:12Z pjb: I've used peek and poke functions to access memory in my GC.  It works too.  Of course, there's an implementation that use a vector, and another that use FFI.
2014-04-05T07:26:34Z beach: I see.
2014-04-05T07:26:40Z beach: Well FFI is out of the question for me.
2014-04-05T07:28:01Z pjb: There could be an implementation that use the open-coded functions system:peek and system:poke ;-)
2014-04-05T07:28:12Z beach: Yeah.
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2014-04-05T07:33:21Z beach: pjb: Did you also reimplement CLOS the way you did many other things?
2014-04-05T07:33:44Z pjb: Not yet :-)
2014-04-05T07:33:52Z beach: :)
2014-04-05T07:34:11Z pjb: You're way ahead with sicl.
2014-04-05T07:34:26Z beach: Not with everything.
2014-04-05T07:35:46Z beach: pjb: I am thinking of turning the SICL compiler into a "CLVM".  That would be a useful thing to have.
2014-04-05T07:36:04Z Bike: common lisp virtual machine?
2014-04-05T07:36:12Z beach: Bike: Yeah.
2014-04-05T07:36:22Z beach: Like LLVM but for CL.
2014-04-05T07:36:53Z pjb: That is you want to define a CLVM and have the SICL compiler target that.  Indeed.
2014-04-05T07:36:58Z beach: I.e., make it sufficiently independent of the implementation that it could be used by anyone who wants.
2014-04-05T07:37:07Z pjb: Why not use LLVM, or perhaps an extension of LLVM?
2014-04-05T07:37:37Z beach: Because I don't want to use code written in inferior languages for inferior languages.
2014-04-05T07:37:51Z White_Flame: LLVM seriously needs a CL port
2014-04-05T07:38:03Z beach: White_Flame: Yes, that's what I mean.
2014-04-05T07:38:25Z beach: White_Flame: And probably adaptations to CL and/or other dynamic languages.
2014-04-05T07:39:05Z zRecursive: CL -> LLVM -> native app. ?!
2014-04-05T07:39:07Z pjb: Yes, that'd be another target.  Indeed, a CLVM would have CL tagged types, and a CL heap, not bare bits.
2014-04-05T07:39:28Z beach: pjb: Exactly!
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2014-04-05T07:39:49Z pjb: One could always write a CLVM to LLVM translator or interpreter.
2014-04-05T07:39:57Z ggole: LLVM doesn't have serious GC support yet
2014-04-05T07:40:02Z beach: It shouldn't be too hard.  I mean, the traditional compiler optimization algorithms should be WAY easier to implement in CL.
2014-04-05T07:40:09Z ggole: (Although work has begun on that.)
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2014-04-05T07:41:08Z brucem: ggole: you're following what Reames is doing then?
2014-04-05T07:41:30Z ggole: I'm more sort of vaguely aware of it
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2014-04-05T07:43:49Z ggole: Hopefully this indicates that the LLVM people are seeking to be useful for compiling languages that are not statically compiled first-order manually managed languages with the same exact exception model as C++.
2014-04-05T07:43:54Z beach: pjb: I think defining a CLVM and have the SICL compiler use it would be in line with the objectives of the SICL project, i.e., modules for implementes of Common Lisp.
2014-04-05T07:43:56Z ggole coughs
2014-04-05T07:44:36Z beach: s/implementes/implementers/
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2014-04-05T07:45:08Z pjb: Yes, and that'd be nice for the lisp OS too.
2014-04-05T07:45:16Z beach: Indeed.
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2014-04-05T07:45:30Z pjb: clisp already has a CL VM defined.
2014-04-05T07:46:11Z beach: OK.  I should look at that at some point.
2014-04-05T07:46:16Z zRecursive: why do CL need a VM ?
2014-04-05T07:46:29Z beach: zRecursive: It depends on what you mean by a VM.
2014-04-05T07:46:46Z beach: zRecursive: I am not thinking VM in the sense of JVM.
2014-04-05T07:46:49Z phadthai: speaking of lisp os, anyone know of a lisp (might not be common lisp) implementation where the image allows user authentication with credentials, and packages, symbols, have permissions, with stack/heap limits?  Basically, a multiuser lisp system?
2014-04-05T07:47:12Z pjb: When writing a compiler it's nice to define a VM to target to, since that allows to easily retarget it to the various processors, by just implementing the VM.  When you're short or resources it's a big win.
2014-04-05T07:47:25Z beach: zRecursive: I am thinking of a bunch of CLOS class definitions that make up a graph of instructions and that can be optimized using traditional techiques.
2014-04-05T07:47:28Z beach: techniques.
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2014-04-05T07:48:09Z pjb: phadthai: even the Lisp Machines were basically single user workstations.  They had user account and users were logged in their own *package* by default, but there wasn't any protection AFAIK.
2014-04-05T07:48:21Z zRecursive: beach: at last VM(byte code) -> native code ?
2014-04-05T07:49:01Z phadthai: pjb: yes
2014-04-05T07:49:11Z beach: zRecursive: I don't think going through byte codes is a good idea.  Rather I am thinking this graph of class instances could generate either byte codes or native code.
2014-04-05T07:49:13Z phadthai: so it would be a new concept as far as lisp is concerned?
2014-04-05T07:49:17Z pjb: phadthai: therefore if you hack a swank to let various users log-in and put them in their own package, you'll basically have this multi-user lisp OS of the same level as the Lisp Machines :-)
2014-04-05T07:49:50Z beach: phadthai: pjb and myself are working on it.  But first we need SICL, because we need first-class global environments.
2014-04-05T07:50:02Z phadthai: ah interesting
2014-04-05T07:50:26Z phadthai: I think it was lucca/backes who once told me about this idea some years back, and it seemed to make sense
2014-04-05T07:51:32Z zRecursive: Have you finished the CLVM spec. ?
2014-04-05T07:51:44Z pjb: :-)
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2014-04-05T07:55:23Z zRecursive: The stack based JVM makes Java so successful, maybe CLVM is CL's hope ...
2014-04-05T07:55:42Z phadthai: I guess that other interesting ideas in that branch would be optional systematic logging of changes (perhaps with snapshots), live image-to-disk updates, etc
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2014-04-05T07:56:33Z easye: zRecursive: Are you being ironic about the "Stack-based" part? Dalvik, of course, is register-based...
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2014-04-05T07:57:27Z nightfly: and if done right well does it really matter?
2014-04-05T07:57:34Z nightfly: s/right//
2014-04-05T07:59:43Z zRecursive: easye: no, i just want to know more about clvm
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2014-04-05T08:01:48Z beach: zRecursive: Have *I* finished the CLVM spec?  No, not quite.  You can find some traces of it in the SICL compiler directory.
2014-04-05T08:02:09Z beach: zRecursive: .. and in the SICL specification.
2014-04-05T08:02:33Z beach: zRecursive: There is a AST format defined and a MIR format.
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2014-04-05T08:02:39Z beach: But they are not finalized.
2014-04-05T08:03:02Z zRecursive: glad to know it
2014-04-05T08:03:58Z beach: I would be happy to hear opinions about how to turn those into a CLVM specification.
2014-04-05T08:04:15Z zRecursive: beach: where is SICL(URL) ?
2014-04-05T08:04:29Z beach: minion: Please tell zRecursive about SICL.
2014-04-05T08:04:29Z minion: zRecursive: SICL: SICL is a (perhaps futile) attempt to re-implement Common Lisp from scratch, hopefully using improved programming and bootstrapping techniques. See https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL
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2014-04-05T08:05:18Z zRecursive: thx
2014-04-05T08:05:26Z beach: Anytime! :)
2014-04-05T08:06:03Z beach: zRecursive: Do not try to make it run.  It won't!
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2014-04-05T08:07:35Z beach: The part of SICL MIR I am unhappy about is that I only have a single memory reference operation.  Clearly I need to access various size chunks like bytes and double words.
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2014-04-05T08:08:51Z pjb: RISC processors don't have that.  They have in register operations to unpack or pack bytes from words.
2014-04-05T08:09:15Z beach: Good point.
2014-04-05T08:09:26Z beach: So I need some operations that will allow both.
2014-04-05T08:09:37Z pjb: Given unicode, do we really need byte memory accesses anymore?
2014-04-05T08:09:54Z pjb: Well there's (unsigned-byte 8), all right.
2014-04-05T08:09:56Z beach: Only for (unsigned-byte 8)
2014-04-05T08:09:59Z beach: heh!
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2014-04-05T08:13:44Z beach: zRecursive: This is an example of the VM I am thinking of: http://metamodular.com/stuff.png
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2014-04-05T08:15:47Z beach: pjb: Also, if you want it to be used by other implementation, they might not like to have their choices limited.
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2014-04-05T08:16:47Z beach: pjb: As I recall, the ARM allows you to load bytes.  No?
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2014-04-05T08:17:16Z zRecursive: beach: not easy to understand it now
2014-04-05T08:17:50Z beach: zRecursive: Of course.  I only meant for it to give you an idea.
2014-04-05T08:18:16Z pjb: Yes, ARM even has a thumb (shorter) instruction set. I was thinking about MIPS.
2014-04-05T08:18:26Z beach: pjb: Yes, I see.
2014-04-05T08:18:48Z beach: zRecursive: It's a graph that lends itself to optimizations using standard compiler optimization techniques.
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2014-04-05T08:20:05Z pjb: This could be decide by analysing applications.  We could have word memory, and special instructions to access bytes, or byte memory with special instructions (or addressing mode) to load words.  In either case, code that use (unsigned-byte 8) and pack/
2014-04-05T08:20:07Z beach: pjb: Maybe the easiest would be to have two options, one for byte-addressed machines and one for the others.
2014-04-05T08:20:14Z pjb: unpack words could be optimized out.
2014-04-05T08:20:44Z beach: pjb: That sounds like a plausible idea.
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2014-04-05T08:22:19Z pjb: Perhaps a SICL compiler could use partial evaluation to target different processors.  So we wouldn't have to decide for a VM early.
2014-04-05T08:22:49Z pjb: Compiler Generation by Partial Evaluation http://repository.readscheme.org/ftp/papers/topps/D-95.pdf‎
2014-04-05T08:23:42Z pjb: Careful there are some invisible unicode characters after "pdf" that must be removed.
2014-04-05T08:23:43Z beach: I think I read that way back.
2014-04-05T08:24:32Z beach: *sigh* so much work...
2014-04-05T08:24:41Z pjb: :-)
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2014-04-05T08:25:56Z beach: Anyway, to summarize, I think CLVM would be a very useful project, and one that many people would be interested in.
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2014-04-05T08:26:41Z pjb: Definitely.
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2014-04-05T08:31:15Z zRecursive: Absolutely! i hope CLVM will run maxima better than SBCL in the future :)
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2014-04-05T08:59:12Z beach: I guess step 1 of the CLVM would be to make sure the AST format is implementation independent, while still allowing for implementation-specific extensions in a well-defined way.
2014-04-05T09:01:30Z phadthai: custom/context specific bus access or such?
2014-04-05T09:02:07Z phadthai: (i.e. thinking of NetBSD's bus_space, bus_dma etc)
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2014-04-05T09:02:22Z beach: bus?
2014-04-05T09:02:54Z phadthai: or extensible in terms of instructions
2014-04-05T09:03:15Z phadthai: instead of memory/device access
2014-04-05T09:03:46Z beach: I am thinking allowing implementations to add different classes of nodes in the abstract syntax tree, and documenting how they should be processed in further steps.
2014-04-05T09:03:55Z phadthai: hmm I should reformulate actually, what I was asking was what kind of implementation-specific extensions
2014-04-05T09:04:27Z phadthai: so the syntax itself
2014-04-05T09:05:02Z beach: phadthai: The AST is just a representation of a CL program that no longer needs the environment.
2014-04-05T09:05:23Z beach: phadthai: However, some implementations might need their own special forms.
2014-04-05T09:05:31Z phadthai: ok
2014-04-05T09:05:55Z beach: phadthai: For instance, SICL uses low-level special forms such as comparing machine integers and accessing memory.
2014-04-05T09:06:17Z beach: But I don't want to impose those on every implementation, if I am to make the AST format implementation-independent.
2014-04-05T09:07:05Z beach: So I need a way to document the basic AST classes and accessors, and then a way to add implementation-specific extensions.
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2014-04-05T09:07:47Z beach: Later in the chain, the implementation-specific extensions would have to be converted to intermediate code in a way that the implementation has defined.
2014-04-05T09:07:58Z beach: All that needs to be modularized and documented as well.
2014-04-05T09:08:59Z beach: But right now, implementation-independent stuff and SICL-specific stuff is all mixed up, as it would be in most implementations.  The work for CLVM would be to change that.
2014-04-05T09:10:19Z beach: Wow, CLOS is ideal for this kind of stuff.
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2014-04-05T09:14:26Z beach: The AST format would be independently useful for things like program transformations.
2014-04-05T09:14:55Z beach: I am thinking for instance about creating special versions of the sequence functions by automatically translating more general versions.
2014-04-05T09:15:58Z beach: I had to give up on creating special versions of sequence functions manually, because it became impossible to keep track of, and equally impossible to test for all cases.
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2014-04-05T09:31:34Z Shinmera: Is there a way to stop emacs from doing... whatever the hell this is http://shinmera.tymoon.eu/public/screenshot-2014.04.05-113008.png
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2014-04-05T09:36:52Z beach: Shinmera: Impressive! :)
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2014-04-05T09:38:05Z Shinmera: It's weird that it happens when you use format, but indents nicely when you just print it. I actually wouldn't expect it to do any kind of indenting when I just format things.
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2014-04-05T09:44:01Z ggole: Keeps going across calls, too
2014-04-05T09:44:06Z ggole: Until you whack a newline in there
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2014-04-05T09:50:55Z ggole: Oh, it seems to be *print-pretty*
2014-04-05T09:51:06Z ggole: Set it to nil (on the CL side).
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2014-04-05T09:51:54Z ggole: ...or don't, because the result is horrible
2014-04-05T09:52:59Z oleo: make it local to the call....
2014-04-05T09:53:04Z oleo: to the env i meant sorry....
2014-04-05T09:53:27Z oleo: (let ((*print-pretty*)) ....blah)
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2014-04-05T09:55:46Z Shinmera: Ah, thanks a lot
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2014-04-05T11:36:34Z puchacz: hi guys, I tried #html and #jquery, but no avail, maybe somebody here knows answer to this pleas
2014-04-05T11:36:36Z puchacz: e
2014-04-05T11:36:44Z puchacz:  is it legal to have string containing any characters in value of input type hidden?
2014-04-05T11:37:14Z puchacz: providing a library carries out proper escaping and encoding, so newlines are somehow escaped etc, and there is no restriction on overall string size?
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2014-04-05T11:41:02Z PuercoPop: although off topic, a quick look at the spec shows that there isn't (The following content attributes must not be specified and do not apply to the element: ...  maxlength, minlength, .. ) http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/single-page.html#hidden-state-(type=hidden) Plus in principle no idea why would you think it has a max length
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2014-04-05T11:43:19Z puchacz: PuercoPop: thanks, I just read your link and it does not seem to restrict possible characters there either
2014-04-05T11:43:43Z puchacz: and, I just checked - newlines do not seem to be escaped by the lisp library I am using
2014-04-05T11:43:50Z puchacz: do not seem = are not :-)
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2014-04-05T11:56:39Z PuercoPop: puchacz: it seems from the spec that linebreaks aren't allowed.
2014-04-05T11:57:13Z puchacz: are they supposed to be esacaped?
2014-04-05T11:57:20Z puchacz: or named in &gt; style?
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2014-04-05T12:04:07Z PuercoPop: well it says no line breaks.
2014-04-05T12:04:38Z PuercoPop: if you escape it you are not puting a line break that is a symbol for the line-break.
2014-04-05T12:09:35Z puchacz: ok, thx
2014-04-05T12:10:21Z puchacz: actually, am I to put this: &#x0A; ?
2014-04-05T12:11:23Z Shinmera: I've also seen some browsers use &gt; literally in some cases, f.e. <style> foo{ content: "&gt;";} </style> will make the content show up as &gt; as opposed to the expected >. Not sure why that is or if it occurs anywhere else though.
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2014-04-05T12:13:02Z puchacz: Shinmera: is this how you would "escape" newline?
2014-04-05T12:13:14Z puchacz: inside value="..." attribute?
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2014-04-05T12:13:44Z Shinmera: I'm not sure how to escape a newline in an attribute
2014-04-05T12:13:59Z Shinmera: I've just noticed that sometimes things seem to not get decoded for some strange reason
2014-04-05T12:14:24Z puchacz: oki
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2014-04-05T13:54:58Z samebchase: Hello Lispers, I just came across this: https://github.com/ghollisjr/cl-ana today. There seems to be a lot of useful code there.
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2014-04-05T14:00:53Z francogrex: "Common Lisp doesn't provide user-extendable math functions" ... whatever that may mean
2014-04-05T14:03:17Z splittist: Does anyone remember the incantation to install all the quicklisp installable libraries?
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2014-04-05T14:03:52Z splittist: (or, at least, download them)
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2014-04-05T14:08:54Z francogrex: he remembers: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=QUICKLISP
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2014-04-05T14:13:50Z p_l: splittist: something like this: (mapcar #'ql-dist:ensure-installed (ql-dist:provided-systems (car (ql-dist:all-dists))))
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2014-04-05T14:20:01Z splittist: p_l: thanks. Something is happening, at least (:
2014-04-05T14:22:02Z p_l: it gets more complex when you have more than one dist (then you should probably do something like (mapcar #'ql-dist:ensure-installed (alexandria:flatten (mapcar #'ql-dist:provided-systems (ql-dist:all-dists)))
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2014-04-05T14:54:07Z nicdev: anyone with experience working with cl-cffi-gkt? I am trying the code here http://paste.lisp.org/display/141927 i get the results of a running thread but i do not get anything displayed. any ideas on what might be happening?
2014-04-05T15:05:25Z splittist: p_l: all good, except teepeedee2. Thanks!
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2014-04-05T15:09:14Z p_l: splittist: I often use that snippet to mirror quicklisp before diving into the unpacked sourced
2014-04-05T15:09:24Z p_l: best way of learning about available libs so far
2014-04-05T15:09:35Z p_l: (since we have no index with descriptions)
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2014-04-05T15:22:21Z Xach: p_l: no
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2014-04-05T15:22:56Z Xach: (ql-dist:provided-releases t) gives a list of all provided releases in all dists.
2014-04-05T15:23:22Z Xach: (ql-dist:provided-releases (ql-dist:dist "name")) does it for only one dist by that name
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2014-04-05T15:27:13Z Xach: ql-dist-user can be convenient if you want to do a lot of ql-dist things
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2014-04-05T15:47:54Z p_l: Xach: oh, I didn't know about that - my snippet was cobbled together ... a year or so ago, if not more, by looking into exported symbols
2014-04-05T15:52:16Z Xach: sure. and there's no docs.
2014-04-05T15:52:19Z Xach: but there is a better way.
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2014-04-05T22:04:19Z dkcl: Out of curiosity - does SLIME still support xemacs?
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2014-04-05T22:08:36Z Xach: dkcl: No.
2014-04-05T22:08:57Z dkcl: Xach: I see, thanks.
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2014-04-05T22:18:43Z Xach: dkcl: it was a recent thing.
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2014-04-05T22:36:17Z genkinodenki: I want to give a string to a function as an argument and then use case to determine outcome, e.g. (defun example (input) (case input ("a" dostuff) ("b" dontdostuff)))  and then do (example "a"), but it doesn't work, what is wrong?
2014-04-05T22:37:07Z _death: your assumptions.. case compares using eql
2014-04-05T22:37:55Z pjb: (progn (defvar *s* #1="string") (defun f (s) (case s ((#1#) 'hi) (otherwise 'lo)))) (f *s*) --> hi
2014-04-05T22:38:44Z pjb: cf. com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.utility:scase
2014-04-05T22:38:54Z Shinmera: if you absolutely need to do a string case, there's a quicklisp package for that. Otherwise cond.
2014-04-05T22:38:55Z _death: you can also use alexandria:switch
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2014-04-05T22:39:55Z H4ns: genkinodenki: you can also use (case (find-symbol (string-upcase input) :keyword) (:foo stuff) (:bar other-stuff))
2014-04-05T22:40:16Z H4ns: genkinodenki: you may be tempted to use intern instead of find-symbol, but don't.
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2014-04-05T22:42:03Z White_Flame: If all your strings are 1 character long, you might do a case on a character instead of string
2014-04-05T22:42:38Z pjb: Of if all  your strings are more than one character long but have one character that is always different.
2014-04-05T22:42:50Z pjb: Or some other key (cf. "perfect hash").
2014-04-05T22:43:07Z genkinodenki: White_Flame: yeah I tried that with #\a etc. and it worked fine, so I was wondering what was up with strings.  but as _death pointed out I was ignorant of the way comparison was made
2014-04-05T22:43:44Z genkinodenki: thanks for the suggestions, I guess I'll just go with cond
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2014-04-05T22:54:32Z oleo: why don't i get any output from (loop for char = (char= (read-char) #\q) while (not char) do (print (nth (random 4) '(a b c d)))) ?
2014-04-05T22:55:10Z pjb: because you don't type RET
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2014-04-05T22:55:26Z oleo: where ?
2014-04-05T22:55:26Z pjb: oleo: most probably, *standard-input* is buffered, notably on POSIX systems.
2014-04-05T22:55:42Z pjb: after you type ragnagna, you should type RET before you type q RET.
2014-04-05T22:56:07Z oleo: ?
2014-04-05T22:56:27Z oleo: owwww
2014-04-05T22:56:33Z pjb: I/O, buffer ?
2014-04-05T22:56:37Z oleo: i get output now
2014-04-05T22:56:44Z oleo: but only when i press RET like you said....
2014-04-05T22:57:16Z oleo: it's not the same as (loop (print (nth (random 4) '(a b c d))))
2014-04-05T22:57:26Z pjb: Now, there's READ-CHAR-NO-HANG and LISTEN (which won't help), but that's all that CL provides in term of raw terminal I/O.
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2014-04-05T22:58:09Z pjb: Otherwise, you need to use an implementation specific extension (#+clisp keyword package) or unix specific API (termio) to configure the terminal in raw mode to get the characters as they are typed.
2014-04-05T22:59:35Z _death: minion: tell oleo about trivial-raw-io
2014-04-05T22:59:35Z minion: trivial-raw-io: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/trivial-raw-io
2014-04-05T22:59:41Z _death: oh well
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2014-04-05T23:06:29Z oleo: ok found it on github
2014-04-05T23:06:37Z oleo: thank you
2014-04-05T23:07:42Z pjb: Notice that it won't work in slime/swank.
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2014-04-05T23:13:49Z oleo: ok
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2014-04-05T23:45:01Z marioxcc: hello
2014-04-05T23:45:18Z marioxcc: could someone please help with this: http://pastebin.com/iLVnNZLV
2014-04-05T23:45:33Z marioxcc: the function just returns and does nothing
2014-04-05T23:45:48Z marioxcc: it's supposed to return an array of 20*20 which is contained in that file
2014-04-05T23:47:03Z pjb: Yes, it should.
2014-04-05T23:47:27Z marioxcc: what do you mean?
2014-04-05T23:47:41Z kpreid: I see (aref matrix (list i j)) which should be (aref matrix i j)
2014-04-05T23:47:52Z kpreid: but that would not affect whether the return value is an array
2014-04-05T23:48:26Z marioxcc: right
2014-04-05T23:48:39Z marioxcc: I fixed that but it still don't works
2014-04-05T23:48:58Z kpreid: never say "doesn't work". instead tell us: what _does_ it return?
2014-04-05T23:49:07Z marioxcc: NIL
2014-04-05T23:49:32Z marioxcc: the loop is unreachable according to SBCL
2014-04-05T23:49:48Z marioxcc: both of them
2014-04-05T23:50:16Z kpreid: unreachable code warnings can be due to "this will signal a type error before it gets there"
2014-04-05T23:50:28Z pjb: If you don't show us the actual code, how do you expect us to debug it?
2014-04-05T23:50:28Z kpreid: but you should have seen the type error
2014-04-05T23:50:45Z kpreid: you haven't gone messing with optimize declarations, have you?
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2014-04-05T23:52:48Z marioxcc: I pasted the actual code
2014-04-05T23:52:56Z marioxcc: http://pastebin.com/iLVnNZLV
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2014-04-05T23:53:16Z marioxcc: it gives no type error when compiled or when the function is called
2014-04-05T23:53:36Z Xach: marioxcc: that code has the aref error.
2014-04-05T23:53:42Z White_Flame: and you pastebin your input file as well?
2014-04-05T23:53:44Z Xach: You said you fixed it.
2014-04-05T23:53:49Z Xach: Where is the fixed code?
2014-04-05T23:53:53Z kpreid: when I paste it into my sbcl, I get a warning about the type error
2014-04-05T23:54:23Z kpreid: so either that isn't the actual code or your sbcl is broken or you have some previous definition/change to the environment that's confusing things or suppressing warnings
2014-04-05T23:55:36Z marioxcc: here's the input
2014-04-05T23:55:38Z marioxcc: http://pastebin.com/aH4pCmp8
2014-04-05T23:55:50Z marioxcc: the code after I fixed the aref look the same save for
2014-04-05T23:56:02Z marioxcc: (setf (aref matrix list i j) [...]
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2014-04-05T23:56:17Z marioxcc: (that's p11.txt)
2014-04-05T23:56:31Z White_Flame: pasting in, I also get a type error that the derived type of matrix is simple-array, conflicting with asserted type vector
2014-04-05T23:57:02Z kpreid: marioxcc: "(aref matrix list i j)" is also incorrect and the fact that you're not seeing a warning about that means _something is seriously wrong_
2014-04-05T23:57:06Z White_Flame: oh, nevermind, that was still with the list fail in there
2014-04-05T23:57:39Z pjb: With (aref matrix i j), I get: (type-of (read-p11-matrix)) --> (simple-array fixnum (20 20))
2014-04-05T23:58:04Z marioxcc: kpreid: sorry, I put an extra "list" there when pasting
2014-04-05T23:58:36Z pjb: again, you really dont want us to debug your code, since you're not giving it.
2014-04-05T23:58:42Z pjb: You're just making us lose our time!
2014-04-05T23:59:35Z marioxcc: right, I should have  pasted the actual code
2014-04-05T23:59:38Z kpreid: marioxcc: let me be slightly less argumentative than pjb: "pasting" does not mean "retyping". NEVER give us code you just typed in, because you will fix or introduce unrelated mistakes by accident. always copy what you actually have
2014-04-05T23:59:49Z marioxcc: I fixed it anyway, thanks
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2014-04-06T00:02:05Z marioxcc: here is it: http://pastebin.com/9g2RFF1S
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2014-04-06T02:08:32Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2014-04-06T02:15:06Z marioxcc: hello
2014-04-06T02:15:16Z marioxcc: how may I declare variable types in a LOOP?
2014-04-06T02:15:34Z beach: (loop for x of-type <type> ....)
2014-04-06T02:16:46Z marioxcc: thanks
2014-04-06T02:16:52Z beach: Anytime!
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2014-04-06T02:44:50Z duo_: Morning? Must be australian, haha. Pretty late on the east coast.
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2014-04-06T02:53:44Z zRecursive: Asia
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2014-04-06T03:00:20Z ThePhoeron: hey beach! evening, everyone
2014-04-06T03:07:38Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2014-04-06T03:07:51Z beach: ThePhoeron: Did you find any projects to contribute to since last November?
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2014-04-06T03:08:45Z zRecursive: stumpwm, maxima ?
2014-04-06T03:08:51Z ThePhoeron: beach: I've been working on a few things... like trying to make sense of linli's p2p repo on github
2014-04-06T03:09:32Z beach: ThePhoeron: Good!
2014-04-06T03:10:02Z ThePhoeron: also added the ISAAC-64 algorithm to CL-ISAAC, so it's a little faster now
2014-04-06T03:10:24Z ThePhoeron: still working on the self-seed though
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2014-04-06T03:10:40Z beach: self-seed?
2014-04-06T03:10:42Z ThePhoeron: for stronger randomization
2014-04-06T03:10:48Z beach: Oh, OK.
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2014-04-06T03:11:48Z ThePhoeron: it's probably unnecessary, but for when you need to be extra paranoid about security...
2014-04-06T03:12:43Z ThePhoeron: also, I switched jobs so I have more time for open-source libraries now
2014-04-06T03:13:01Z beach: That's good I suppose.
2014-04-06T03:13:28Z ThePhoeron: so what happened to those projects you were talking about?
2014-04-06T03:13:34Z kliph quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2014-04-06T03:13:43Z beach: Oh, I am still working very hard on them.
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2014-04-06T03:13:54Z beach: But there is still much work to be done.
2014-04-06T03:14:21Z ThePhoeron: cool. which ones in particular? I don't think you specified last time
2014-04-06T03:14:34Z beach: minion: Please tell ThePhoeron about SICL.
2014-04-06T03:14:34Z minion: ThePhoeron: SICL: SICL is a (perhaps futile) attempt to re-implement Common Lisp from scratch, hopefully using improved programming and bootstrapping techniques. See https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL
2014-04-06T03:14:53Z ThePhoeron: ah yes, I have a fork of SICL already
2014-04-06T03:15:41Z beach: Yesterday, I vaguely mentioned turning the compiler code of SICL into a "CLVM", sort of a LLVM but for and in CL.
2014-04-06T03:16:09Z beach: ... so that is what I am working on right now.
2014-04-06T03:16:20Z ThePhoeron: well
2014-04-06T03:16:37Z ThePhoeron: that's no mean task
2014-04-06T03:16:50Z beach: True, but I am in no hurry. :)
2014-04-06T03:17:13Z marioxcc: what's the diference between delcaim and declare?
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2014-04-06T03:17:43Z Bike: declaim is a top-level macro, declare is a syntactic form
2014-04-06T03:17:54Z marioxcc: ok, thanks
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2014-04-06T03:20:42Z beach: ThePhoeron: By turning specific code into something generally useful, I am hoping that someone will eventually get excited about it and take over the development.  This will benefit us all.
2014-04-06T03:22:11Z ThePhoeron: beach: ok, merged upstream into my fork
2014-04-06T03:22:21Z ThePhoeron: lot of commits to review...
2014-04-06T03:24:41Z zRecursive: beach: Which app are you using to view those *.tex in SICL ?
2014-04-06T03:25:57Z zRecursive: view or create
2014-04-06T03:27:20Z beach: zRecursive: To view them I am using either okular or evince.
2014-04-06T03:27:49Z beach: zRecursive: To create the .tex files I use Emacs.
2014-04-06T03:27:53Z zRecursive: How about creating them ?
2014-04-06T03:28:14Z beach: zRecursive: To create the .pdf I use pdflatex.
2014-04-06T03:28:24Z beach: [as indicated in the Makefile]
2014-04-06T03:28:44Z zRecursive: then the *.tex is manullay inputted ?
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2014-04-06T03:28:54Z beach: zRecursive: Yes, as usual.
2014-04-06T03:29:19Z beach: ThePhoeron: There is no way you can review those commits if you have a full-time job in addition. :)
2014-04-06T03:29:58Z beach: zRecursive: Emacs has a decent LaTeX mode.
2014-04-06T03:30:17Z zRecursive: yeah, there is only emacs here
2014-04-06T03:30:24Z ThePhoeron: beach: no kidding :|
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2014-04-06T03:32:28Z ThePhoeron: somehow, my fork was 1344 commits behind!
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2014-04-06T03:38:18Z ThePhoeron: beach: actually, I have a strange bug in my web framework, in the code I borrowed from weblocks
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2014-04-06T03:38:43Z ThePhoeron: when copying a directory, it breaks on symlinks
2014-04-06T03:39:46Z ThePhoeron: the code relies on cl-fad, so I looked at its documentation, updated the call to not follow symlinks, but no good
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2014-04-06T03:50:27Z leo2007: In slime can I set a breakpoint at a source line?
2014-04-06T03:53:15Z PuercoPop: No, it can do so at an form afaik.
2014-04-06T03:53:39Z leo2007: how to do that?
2014-04-06T03:55:10Z pjb: type (break) where you want to insert the breakpoint, and type  C-M-x to activate it.
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2014-04-06T03:59:07Z leo2007: Any idea how lispworks ide implemented this break on line/form feature?
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2014-04-06T04:00:12Z pjb: The compiler takes note of the source lines corresponding to binary addresses, so it can insert the binary break at will.
2014-04-06T04:00:41Z pjb: But this is a lot of work, for a language like lisp that's not defined on a text stream, but on a sexp tree.
2014-04-06T04:00:59Z pjb: This is the reason why it's only done in commercial implementations.
2014-04-06T04:01:31Z pjb: I guess you could pay lisp implementors to add it to free implementations, if you really do not want to profit from the liberty you have to do it yourself.
2014-04-06T04:02:52Z leo2007: is there something like emacs's debug-on-entry?
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2014-04-06T04:03:45Z leo2007: sldb-break seems to do so
2014-04-06T04:03:48Z pjb: There's cl:trace; it may have extended keyword argument that would perform the same, but otherwise you would just insert a break or a (invoke-debugger "on-entry") at the beginning of a function.
2014-04-06T04:04:39Z pjb: The thing is that when you write your code naturally in lisp, ie. bottom up, you don't really need to break to debug.
2014-04-06T04:05:18Z drewc thinks BREAK is the form.... but Guinness .....
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2014-04-06T04:07:10Z leo2007: sldb-break is not implemented for sbcl
2014-04-06T04:08:35Z leo2007: pjb: what about other people's lisp code?
2014-04-06T04:10:22Z leo2007: it might not be difficult to add sbcl support given there is cmucl one
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2014-04-06T04:16:40Z beach: pjb: I am working on CLVM.  It's fun!  Currently it is in a subdirectory of SICL, but I might turn it into a separate project later.  I also need a better name for it.
2014-04-06T04:17:01Z beach: [I am not taking name suggestions at the moment.]
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2014-04-06T04:25:14Z pjb: leo2007: do you mean you have access to non-free software  lisp programs?
2014-04-06T04:25:50Z pjb: beach: you may call it 845 ;-)
2014-04-06T04:26:14Z beach: ?
2014-04-06T04:26:27Z pjb: CLVM = CCMXLV
2014-04-06T04:26:37Z beach: Oh, my!
2014-04-06T04:28:15Z pjb: MOEPL = Machine Optimisée pour Éxécuter des Programmes Lisp.
2014-04-06T04:28:52Z beach: pjb: Maybe you missed the `NOT' in "I am NOT taking..." :)
2014-04-06T04:29:20Z pjb: Oops :-)
2014-04-06T04:29:23Z beach: pjb: it is Exécuter, not Éxécuter.
2014-04-06T04:29:29Z pjb: True.
2014-04-06T04:32:27Z beach: Working on CLVM is a great exercise in modularity, because it forces me to extract implementation-dependent code from what I had to a separate module.
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2014-04-06T08:27:43Z oleo: morning
2014-04-06T08:28:30Z beach: Hello oleo.
2014-04-06T08:28:52Z oleo: hello beach :)
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2014-04-06T08:52:33Z beach: I guess I inadvertently generated some excitement about CLVM.  Sorry about that! :)
2014-04-06T08:58:11Z phadthai: heh
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2014-04-06T09:10:16Z samebchase: beach: we could surely do with even more excitement about new lisp projects :-)
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2014-04-06T09:21:59Z beach: samebchase: Glad you think so.  More typical #lisp reactions are "Pointless", "Can't be done", "Will never work.", "CL is dead anyway.", etc.
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2014-04-06T09:24:38Z H4ns: beach: but you've just said you're sorry that you sparked the excitement yourself :D
2014-04-06T09:25:28Z beach: Yes.  I am very careful not to get people's hopes too high.
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2014-04-06T09:29:17Z replcated: I know *load-truename* will get me the directory where a fasl is being loaded from, but how do I get where the source is located?
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2014-04-06T10:27:10Z hitecnologys: Is there any sane way to use ASDF system when running Lisp scripts (e.g. with --script argument for SBCL) except not running them as scripts but saving into executable binary?
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2014-04-06T10:30:48Z oleo: save-lisp-and-die ?
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2014-04-06T10:30:53Z oleo: at the end of your script ?
2014-04-06T10:31:04Z hitecnologys: What for?
2014-04-06T10:31:25Z oleo: such that your script gets saved into a executable binary ?
2014-04-06T10:31:32Z oleo: i thought that's what you asked for....
2014-04-06T10:31:53Z hitecnologys: Ah, yeah, that was my idea. I was asking if there was any other ways.
2014-04-06T10:32:56Z oleo: not that i know of....
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2014-04-06T10:33:29Z hitecnologys: I see. OK, thanks for help then.
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2014-04-06T10:56:37Z Xach: hitecnologys: what does "sane way" mean?
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2014-04-06T10:59:38Z hitecnologys: Xach: the way that doesn't involve tremendous amount of work.
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2014-04-06T11:00:37Z H4ns: hitecnologys: what work, for whom?  what is wrong with putting (ql:quickload :the-system) into the beginning of the script?
2014-04-06T11:00:47Z H4ns: hitecnologys: too slow?  save an image with all the systems loaded
2014-04-06T11:00:50Z Xach: That is pretty verbose most of the time.
2014-04-06T11:01:10Z Xach: I can understand many obstacles, but I'd like to know which in particular irk hitecnologys
2014-04-06T11:02:43Z hitecnologys: H4ns: I tried putting it but I wasn't satisfied with the result so I saved an image. Saving an image was the fastest and easiest way of acieving what I needed. I was just wondering if there are any other ways.
2014-04-06T11:02:57Z H4ns: hitecnologys: saving an image is the best way.
2014-04-06T11:03:02Z H4ns: for some value of "best"
2014-04-06T11:03:40Z pnpuff: Is some working earley parser available by means of Quicklisp? thanks.
2014-04-06T11:05:10Z hitecnologys: Xach: usability mostly. I try to avoid doing unnecessary work if there's a way of not doing it.
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2014-04-06T11:05:29Z hitecnologys: Xach: I'm very lazy, yes.
2014-04-06T11:07:45Z hitecnologys: Xach: I'm not sure I answered your question correctly, though. Usability bothers me in a way that I care about it.
2014-04-06T11:10:50Z hitecnologys: H4ns: I see. I'll just stick to SAVE-LISP-AND-DIE then. Thanks.
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2014-04-06T11:17:31Z Xach: hitecnologys: you have given no details about what work you wish to avoid, which is frustrating
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2014-04-06T11:18:49Z hitecnologys: Xach: any work.
2014-04-06T11:20:24Z hitecnologys: Xach: yeah, what I say might actually be frustraing. I wasn't having enough sleep this week so my sentences may sound not very adequate.
2014-04-06T11:21:55Z hitecnologys: Oops, typo. s/frustraing/frustrating/
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2014-04-06T11:31:25Z Xach: ok, then i will wait for you to rest and recharge
2014-04-06T11:32:20Z hitecnologys: Aha, that would be wise.
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2014-04-06T11:32:36Z pjb: replcated: (defvar *f*  #.(or *compile-file-truename* *load-truename*))
2014-04-06T11:34:30Z pnpuff: sorry, but why CL-EARLEY-PARSER is not available by means of Quicklisp?
2014-04-06T11:34:55Z pnpuff: I'm looking now at the cliki page
2014-04-06T11:35:03Z Xach: pnpuff: perhaps nobody has asked for it, or perhaps someone asked and it did not work for some reason.
2014-04-06T11:35:36Z Xach: Proects that have no .asd file cannot be meaningfully added to Quicklisp, for example. I don't know if that's the case for cl-earley-parser.
2014-04-06T11:35:43Z oleo: afaik it's in clocc and got incorporated into mcclim or so not ?
2014-04-06T11:35:51Z pnpuff: Xach: if possible, could ypu kindly include that project into Quicklisp?
2014-04-06T11:36:02Z pnpuff: I see the .asd file...
2014-04-06T11:36:10Z pnpuff: *you
2014-04-06T11:36:46Z Xach: pnpuff: It will be easiest for me to add it if you create a reminder at https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects/issues with information about where I can get it.
2014-04-06T11:36:59Z Xach: If that is not feasible, email to zach@quicklisp.org suffices
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2014-04-06T11:38:16Z Xach: pnpuff: That project's .asd file is not suitable - it does not have author or description information.
2014-04-06T11:38:21Z Xach: pnpuff: it requires some maintenance
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2014-04-06T12:07:20Z oleo: how do i reinit asdf ?
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2014-04-06T12:19:26Z Xach: oleo: is there a particular thing you would like to reinitialize?
2014-04-06T12:20:53Z oleo: well the source-registry, i added new .asd files ....
2014-04-06T12:21:18Z oleo: when i restart it finds them....
2014-04-06T12:21:26Z oleo: but i want to be able todo that from the running repl....
2014-04-06T12:23:52Z Xach: oleo: (asdf:initialize-source-registry) might help
2014-04-06T12:25:55Z oleo: ah thank you, i always forget that...oh man :)
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2014-04-06T12:29:43Z oleo: (nth n list) == (elt list n) heh
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2014-04-06T12:37:24Z nyef: Note that NTH and ELT have different responses when you run past the end of the list.
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2014-04-06T12:38:56Z oleo: oh
2014-04-06T12:40:06Z oleo: right nth gives just nil, but elt errors with index too large
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2014-04-06T12:43:27Z nyef: Something I was reminded of when parsing CSV files using fare-csv... when the last column is occasionally empty and occasionally has a useful value. Sometimes there's an element, sometimes it's out-of-bounds.
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2014-04-06T12:43:49Z b80905: sometimes a list is displayed partially, like this: (0 1 2 3 ...). how do i make my lisp interpreter display the entire list?
2014-04-06T12:44:01Z nyef: Have a look at *print-length*
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2014-04-06T16:14:59Z Poenikatu: What is the difference between setq and setf?
2014-04-06T16:15:29Z nyef: SETQ is the "primitive" version that only works on symbols, SETF is the "general" version which everybody uses.
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2014-04-06T16:16:09Z Poenikatu: nyef: Does that mean that SETF can be used on PLACES as well as symbols, but SETQ cannot?
2014-04-06T16:16:26Z nyef: There's further magic involving SETF-expansion of lexical variables and SETQ on symbol-macros, but that's more details than anything else.
2014-04-06T16:16:33Z nyef: Yes. SETF is for places, SETQ isn't.
2014-04-06T16:16:42Z nyef: Anything valid for SETQ is also a valid place.
2014-04-06T16:17:00Z Poenikatu: nyef: That's succinct and very helpful. Thanks
2014-04-06T16:17:02Z nyef: In general, modern style is to use SETF, because using SETQ doesn't actually tell you anything.
2014-04-06T16:17:22Z Poenikatu: nyef: Doesn't tell you anything?
2014-04-06T16:18:09Z nyef: You can't infer anything from SETQ of a symbol that you can't also infer from SETF of the symbol.
2014-04-06T16:18:33Z Poenikatu: nyef: I'm not quite with you.
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2014-04-06T16:19:03Z Poenikatu: What can you infer from a SETQ?
2014-04-06T16:19:22Z H4ns: Poenikatu: nothing.  that is the point.
2014-04-06T16:19:36Z Poenikatu: Well, what can you infer from a SETF?
2014-04-06T16:20:08Z Shinmera: His point is that there's no reason to use setq at all as you gain nothing from making the distinction to setf.
2014-04-06T16:20:26Z H4ns: Poenikatu: if there are two operators that overlap in their functionality, it is often useful to chose the more specific one if that gives the reader a better understanding what's going on.
2014-04-06T16:20:29Z nyef: No, no... The way to illustrate this point is to show a case where using a different form actually TELLS you something.
2014-04-06T16:20:43Z Vivitron: I like to use setf when I am mutating an object and setq when I am mutating a binding, to keep that distinction explicit
2014-04-06T16:20:46Z nyef: Yes, H4ns has the idea. Now, do we have an example?
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2014-04-06T16:21:10Z H4ns: Poenikatu: with SETQ, even though it is more specific than SETF, there is no such improvement in clarity.  nothing in SETQ makes the code clearer than if you'd use SETF.
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2014-04-06T16:21:54Z H4ns: Poenikatu: also, SETF is nicer because you can actually set multiple places in one form, when SETQ is restricted to one.  summing up: don't use SETQ, it is obsolete.
2014-04-06T16:22:09Z splittist: Older dialects of lisp even provided SETQQ...
2014-04-06T16:22:15Z H4ns: ieh
2014-04-06T16:22:48Z nyef: SETQ doesn't even tell you that whatever you're setting is purely a symbol, because it evolves to SETF if you SETQ a symbol-macro, which can refer to an arbitrary place.
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2014-04-06T16:24:41Z Poenikatu: (1) I did (macroexpand (setf ...)) and got a macro expansion involving setq (2) In the CLHS, the difference between the macro SETF and the SPECIAL FORM SETQ is that the former can return more than one result
2014-04-06T16:24:42Z Vivitron: nyef: some things the code tell you are only with respect to the style it was written in. For example Kent Pitman (iirc) had an interesting article on c.l.l. describing how a single branch if and a when had different meanings to the reader in his code
2014-04-06T16:25:08Z H4ns: Poenikatu: so?
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2014-04-06T16:25:44Z Poenikatu: So, it is possible to use setq with several symbols and forms, just like setf
2014-04-06T16:25:53Z nyef: Umm... SETQ can return more than one result under certain circumstances, can't it?
2014-04-06T16:26:09Z Poenikatu: nyef: Not according to the CLHS
2014-04-06T16:26:10Z nyef: (The line of attack I'm thinking here is a symbol-macro of a VALUES form.)
2014-04-06T16:26:15Z H4ns: oh, i was wrong.
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2014-04-06T16:26:33Z Poenikatu: nyef: I confess I have not yet learned about symbol-macros
2014-04-06T16:26:45Z H4ns: Poenikatu: sorry.  i did tell you something not true.  setq can assign multiple values.
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2014-04-06T16:26:57Z H4ns: Poenikatu: which does not invalidate the rest of my points, though :)
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2014-04-06T16:27:10Z nyef: And SETQ can do multiple assignments... in series.
2014-04-06T16:27:29Z Poenikatu: H4ns: Thanks. I must say that I am struck by the friendliness of this channel. Very very helpful
2014-04-06T16:28:05Z H4ns: Poenikatu: the experience in this channel varies widely.  good to hear that it is positive for you.
2014-04-06T16:28:58Z Poenikatu: H4ns: It has always been +ve, although sometimes when I'm up in the early morning, USA members are in their beds.
2014-04-06T16:29:08Z nyef: Hrm. SETQ of a symbol-macro multiple-value place looks to be an interesting spec-interpretation point.
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2014-04-06T16:39:02Z splittist: Nominations for best (or excellent) computer (-related) histories? Need not be long form.
2014-04-06T16:40:29Z dkcl: splittist: McCarthy's all-refuting one-liner.
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2014-04-06T16:45:46Z splittist: "I don't see that human intelligence is something that humans can never understand." ?
2014-04-06T16:47:52Z dkcl: I was more-or-less-jokingly referring to his asking "Can X gracefully manipulate X code as data?" in every language convention/presentation he attended, always saying "Hmm" after being told "No"
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2014-04-06T16:59:20Z splittist: dkcl: he must have been popular (:
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2014-04-06T17:03:12Z Krystof: I suppose that's why he hung around the lisp folks
2014-04-06T17:03:27Z ggole: Was that a habit? I thought that was just the Norvig/Python thing.
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2014-04-06T17:07:16Z dkcl: ggole: I can't remember the source, but he allegedly did it a few more times.
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2014-04-06T18:20:07Z replcate`: How can a package determine where it's source is or was when it was compiled and loaded?
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2014-04-06T18:21:09Z nyef: Didn't this question get answered yesterday?
2014-04-06T18:21:17Z nyef: Or similarly recently?
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2014-04-06T18:21:46Z nyef: Something to do with *compile-truename* and *load-truename* or something like that?
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2014-04-06T18:22:52Z replcate`: I wasn't on yesterday.  *load-truename* is giving me the path to the fasl, which is different than where my source is.
2014-04-06T18:23:34Z nyef: And the other?
2014-04-06T18:23:36Z replcate`: And I'm getting nothing for *compile-file-truename*.
2014-04-06T18:23:43Z replcate`: #P""
2014-04-06T18:24:00Z nyef: Implementation?
2014-04-06T18:24:08Z replcate`: ccl ATM
2014-04-06T18:24:51Z nyef: Another possibility is *compile-file-pathname*.
2014-04-06T18:25:07Z nyef: I'm really not familiar with ccl, I'm afraid.
2014-04-06T18:26:31Z nyef: Oh, are you taking the value of *c-f-t* at read-time or at some other time?
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2014-04-06T18:27:53Z replcate`: I just have a naked defvar in the .lisp that does  (make-pathname :name nil :type nil :defaults *THE-VAR*).
2014-04-06T18:28:15Z nyef: #.*THE-VAR*
2014-04-06T18:29:02Z nyef: Or #. the entire MAKE-PATHNAME form. That might be better.
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2014-04-06T18:29:25Z replcate`: (defvar *home*
2014-04-06T18:29:26Z replcate`:   (make-pathname :name nil :type nil
2014-04-06T18:29:26Z replcate`:                  :defaults *load-truename*))
2014-04-06T18:29:28Z nyef: Yeah, :DEFAULTS NIL might explain your results.
2014-04-06T18:30:09Z replcate`: sbcl gives me the same result as ccl.
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2014-04-06T18:30:39Z nyef: Because it's evaluating at the wrong time. You really want to involve #. here.
2014-04-06T18:30:47Z replcate`: nyef: What's #.?
2014-04-06T18:30:54Z nyef: clhs #.
2014-04-06T18:30:55Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhf.htm
2014-04-06T18:31:51Z nyef: "Suddenly, things started working. Now the question was WHY."
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2014-04-06T18:33:25Z bjorkintosh: 'look not a gift horse in the mouth, for it might bite you'.
2014-04-06T18:33:30Z bjorkintosh: or something like that.
2014-04-06T18:33:49Z nyef: There was another one about a gift camel and spitting...
2014-04-06T18:35:22Z replcate`: nyef: Thank you! *compile-file-... gives me what I needed. #. was the missing part.
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2014-04-06T18:36:19Z nyef: Okay, that's a start. Now, do you understand WHY you need a #. there?
2014-04-06T18:36:51Z replcate`: Yes.  I just wasn't familiar with the #. construct.
2014-04-06T18:37:09Z nyef: Okay, good. Just making sure.
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2014-04-06T21:29:53Z names: LostDatagram nightshade427 sbryant sshirokov araujo stardiviner ered ThePhoeron emma cory786 DrCode Patzy sellout edgar-rft yrk PuercoPop cyraxjoe Amaan EvW abeaumont_ JPeterson ahungry Sgeo Bike peterhil` mikaelj srcerer hugoduncan milosn whartung Krystof jackdaniel _5kg loke Nshag lemoinem cpt_nemo sykopomp dim chirpsalot angavrilov tbarletz nydel aoh Oddity hypno__ joast Khisanth andyo wgreenhouse |3b| Adlai hugod mksan dstolfa Mathieu gko ramus Kruppe
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2014-04-06T21:29:53Z hobana.freenode.net:#lisp- [freenode-info] channel trolls and no channel staff around to help? please check with freenode support: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#gettinghelp
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2014-04-06T21:32:01Z quotemstr: Do I recall correctly that CL forbids shadowing symbols in the CL package?
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2014-04-06T21:39:00Z Xach: quotemstr: no.
2014-04-06T21:39:29Z Xach: Poenikatu: I don't know, but I do know that the lispworks mailing list is especially fast and helpful at lispworks questions.  (I think #lisp is a fine place to ask, topically, but not a great place for promptness or quality.)
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2014-04-06T21:43:22Z Xach: quotemstr: although it depends on what you mean by shadowing. the list of forbiddings is at http://l1sp.org/cl/11.1.2.1.2
2014-04-06T21:44:10Z quotemstr: Xach: Ah, thanks.
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2014-04-07T00:09:51Z pkhuong: Riddle: What is the value of *x* after (defparameter *x* 'foo) (let ((*x* 42)) (makunbound '*x*) (setf *x* 5))? Explanation that refers to the spec necessary for full points ;)
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2014-04-07T00:16:18Z DataLinkDroid: pkhuong: well in my CCL, *x* is FOO. surprisingly...
2014-04-07T00:17:35Z pkhuong: I'm pretty sure that's the correct behaviour, I just can't remember why.
2014-04-07T00:21:02Z zRecursive: lexical scope
2014-04-07T00:22:38Z Alfr: makunbound and setf only touch the value of the binding for *x* established by let.
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2014-04-07T00:26:42Z pkhuong: Alfr: makunbound removes that binding.
2014-04-07T00:26:58Z Alfr: ``touch''.
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2014-04-07T00:36:32Z Alfr: pkhuong, but what's the question? So, makunbound removes the binding, so that *x* in the let body is unbound and then 5. Finally let restores the value of *x* to 'foo.
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2014-04-07T00:39:35Z nyef: pkhuong: You're looking for CLHS 3.1.2.1.1.2.
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2014-04-07T00:41:22Z nyef: Paragraph three, "The /value/ part of the /binding/ for a /dynamic variable/ might be empty; ..."
2014-04-07T00:42:40Z pkhuong: Good, thanks. I also like that makunbound seems to mandate a shallow binding implementation ;)
2014-04-07T00:42:53Z Alfr: Hm ... or paragraph 4 ...
2014-04-07T00:43:44Z nyef: It doesn't mandate shallow binding so much as the ability to have a binding that explicitly represents the unbound condition.
2014-04-07T00:44:29Z pkhuong: nyef: "Side Effects: The value cell of symbol is modified."
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2014-04-07T00:46:19Z nyef: Except that that's defined as a /place/, which is defined in terms of /generalized reference/, which allows the actual storage to be computed dynamically.
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2014-04-07T00:50:29Z nyef: Also see the definition of System Class SYMBOL, which explicitly defines the storage for the various "cells" of a symbol as being implementation-dependent.
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2014-04-07T00:54:17Z pkhuong: OK. enough standard spelunking for today. thanks nyef.
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2014-04-07T01:34:43Z tntc: rediscovering common lisp while learning emacs. anyone got some advice for a newbie?
2014-04-07T01:34:52Z tntc: I'm liking SLIME so far
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2014-04-07T01:37:18Z daimrod: minion: tell tntc about PCL
2014-04-07T01:37:18Z minion: tntc: please look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2014-04-07T01:46:25Z tntc: daimrod: cool! Thanks! I'm running through Land of Lisp atm. Any thoughts on it?
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2014-04-07T01:47:06Z daimrod: tntc: I haven't read it but I've heard good thing on it.
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2014-04-07T01:54:22Z phadthai: if you want something both introductory and intermediate, also good is Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation
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2014-04-07T01:57:04Z tntc: is emacs a reasonable environment to learn within?
2014-04-07T01:57:53Z phadthai: it's slime is the most popular free common lisp ide, which is for emacs
2014-04-07T01:58:06Z phadthai: some errors there, but probably parsable :)
2014-04-07T01:58:27Z tntc: hehe. close enough. I'm actually playing in SLIME right now
2014-04-07T01:58:52Z tntc: mostly the repl. I haven't quite figured out how to tie a buffer and the repl together properly
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2014-04-07T02:03:25Z daimrod: tntc: try M-x slime-scratch RET
2014-04-07T02:04:31Z tntc: no match.
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2014-04-07T03:02:34Z axion: how can i test if a keyword parameter is passed to a function, even if its value is nil?
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2014-04-07T03:04:05Z Bike: &key (argname default argname-passed-p) and then check argname-passed-p
2014-04-07T03:04:25Z axion: thanks
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2014-04-07T03:07:22Z organmeat: why does lisp
2014-04-07T03:07:28Z organmeat: cause this compile error?
2014-04-07T03:07:28Z organmeat: http://imgur.com/feq03xk
2014-04-07T03:07:33Z organmeat: or what does the compile error mean?
2014-04-07T03:08:14Z pjb: I don't see a compile error.  Perhaps you could try to copy and paste the ascii text?
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2014-04-07T03:12:14Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2014-04-07T03:22:17Z zRecursive: noon
2014-04-07T03:23:11Z phadthai: good evening
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2014-04-07T04:51:29Z beach: Found a better name for CLVM: "Cleavir, Cutting-edge compilation tools for Common Lisp."
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2014-04-07T09:10:15Z zmyrgel: shouldn't I be able to refer to local variables in loop collect clause?
2014-04-07T09:10:47Z zmyrgel: I have code like: (loop for x in ... with name = (second x) collect name) which returns just list of nils
2014-04-07T09:11:09Z zmyrgel: but if I replace the collect name part with (second x) I get list of values I want
2014-04-07T09:11:31Z phadthai: perhaps you want for instead of with
2014-04-07T09:12:14Z zmyrgel: lemme paste actual code, sec
2014-04-07T09:13:10Z zmyrgel: http://paste.lisp.org/display/141941
2014-04-07T09:13:53Z zmyrgel: if I replace 'collect company-name' with the form above I get the values I want
2014-04-07T09:14:51Z ck_: if you MACROEXPAND-1 your loop form, you'll see why phadthai suggested 'for' instead of 'with'
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2014-04-07T09:17:44Z phadthai: "with" is for pre-iteration initialization, and your "company-name" binding depends on "company", so part of the iteration, so "for" should be used instead there
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2014-04-07T09:18:18Z zmyrgel: makes sense
2014-04-07T09:18:34Z phadthai: some compilers will warn about misplaced WITH even, I think
2014-04-07T09:19:08Z phadthai: s/compilers/implementations/
2014-04-07T09:20:02Z ck_: that will depend on whether the (let .. which the with expands to includes a valid form or not, won't it
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2014-04-07T10:20:37Z Poenikatu: What is the point of defining a class with no slots?
2014-04-07T10:20:57Z dim: inheritance, for generic methods dispatch?
2014-04-07T10:21:01Z Shinmera: Having methods?
2014-04-07T10:21:29Z Poenikatu: Shinmera: What on earth can you do with methods for a class with no slots?
2014-04-07T10:22:16Z Shinmera: What can't you do?
2014-04-07T10:22:36Z splittist: Poenikatu: think of mix-in methods
2014-04-07T10:22:43Z splittist: s/methods/classes/
2014-04-07T10:22:52Z Poenikatu: Shinmera: Wrong question. I've been programming for 47 years and I've never had the need to use object-oriented programming
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2014-04-07T10:23:15Z Poenikatu: splittist: I don't understand mixins
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2014-04-07T10:23:30Z Shinmera: Poenikatu: OOP is a way of thinking and building an architecture.
2014-04-07T10:23:53Z Poenikatu: I've never needed it and I've written some complicated programs
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2014-04-07T10:24:07Z Shinmera: Poenikatu: As such there's never an absolute need to use it, but it can be a good design tool.
2014-04-07T10:24:09Z dim: some guys never needed the wheel before it was invented
2014-04-07T10:24:18Z dim: then they tried it...
2014-04-07T10:24:29Z dim: that being said I don't much like OOP myself
2014-04-07T10:24:32Z Poenikatu: I'm not talking about wheels. What's wrong with defstruct
2014-04-07T10:24:59Z dim: that you can't reload the struct definition on-flight and have all the objects migrate to the new one
2014-04-07T10:25:21Z Poenikatu: What about the include option?
2014-04-07T10:25:41Z Poenikatu: And what do you mean by "on-flight"?
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2014-04-07T10:26:38Z dim: I mean C-M-x from Emacs with an open REPL where you have struct instances around
2014-04-07T10:26:46Z Poenikatu: I'm currently reading Sonja Keene's book and I've started reading AMOP. I still don't see the point of using OOP
2014-04-07T10:27:02Z dim: it's just another tool in your toolbelt
2014-04-07T10:27:21Z dim: sometimes it's convenient, sometimes even more so than other tools, and sometimes it's just adding useless complexity
2014-04-07T10:27:31Z dim: you can't know when it's convenient before you try it, can you?
2014-04-07T10:27:51Z Shinmera: I find OOP very useful when I need to provide an interface or framework that the user should be able to extend.
2014-04-07T10:28:01Z splittist: You wouldn't expect a book about paint-brushes to spend too much time talking about the point of using them.
2014-04-07T10:28:31Z Poenikatu: Shinmera: In what way, useful?
2014-04-07T10:28:44Z Shinmera: Poenikatu: it makes it simple and elegant in a lot of ways.
2014-04-07T10:29:02Z mikaelj: I think the PCL chapter on OO is good. Maybe that'd be worth reading?
2014-04-07T10:29:24Z Poenikatu: For example, I often use functions (procedures in my previous favourite language), so what's special about methods?
2014-04-07T10:29:55Z Poenikatu: mikaelj: I've read it and Sonja's book goes into that in great detail.
2014-04-07T10:31:25Z mikaelj: Poenikatu, I mean the book Practical Common Lisp. I think Sonja talks about Portable CommonLoops
2014-04-07T10:31:52Z Poenikatu: I wrote my first CLOS program some weeks ago. Yes, it works, but it was very small: ~50 odd lines
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2014-04-07T10:32:18Z Poenikatu: mikaelj: I've read Practical Common Lisp: cover to cover
2014-04-07T10:32:36Z H4ns: mikaelj: keene's book covers clos.
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2014-04-07T10:32:48Z Poenikatu: H4ns: Indeed
2014-04-07T10:33:56Z Poenikatu: In Sonja's book, on page 117 she wrote "The classes t and standard-object do not have slots". Well, you should see what AMOP says about standard-object. At least 6 slots.
2014-04-07T10:34:19Z phadthai: I agree that you'd never "need it", that in many cases it's not the best way to go, but also that in some cases it can be useful (i.e. a gui toolkit with obvious inheritence patterns which user libraries may extend, in the case of CLOS, cases where you want benefit from the interactive dynamicity (updating classes live, use MOP, object-database etc)
2014-04-07T10:34:42Z dim: for me clos is all about the dispatch really
2014-04-07T10:35:03Z dim: it's like a better way to handle closures and type-dependant code
2014-04-07T10:35:05Z Krystof: Poenikatu: are you sure?
2014-04-07T10:35:52Z Krystof: the /class/ object named standard-object has slots; direct instances of the class standard-object do not have slots
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2014-04-07T10:36:19Z Poenikatu: Krystof: No, got it wrong, it's standard-class which has 7 slots (page 18)
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2014-04-07T10:37:05Z dim: (describe (make-instance 'standard-class)) --> DIRECT-SLOTS = NIL SLOTS = NIL
2014-04-07T10:37:34Z dim: (describe (make-instance 'standard-object)) --> No slots.
2014-04-07T10:37:48Z dim: Poenikatu: it's quite easy to try things out at the REPL
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2014-04-07T10:38:03Z dim: maybe even better than just reading books and cross referencing them
2014-04-07T10:38:11Z dim: well I guess it depends on how you like to learn about things
2014-04-07T10:39:38Z Poenikatu: dim: Yes, did (describe ... 'standard-class) and got what you said, but AMOP definitely specifes 7 slots. However, those slots are for metaobject, not objects defined/used by a user.
2014-04-07T10:39:48Z Poenikatu: *specifies
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2014-04-07T10:41:41Z Poenikatu: dim: I'm not just reading books. I am sincerely trying to learn what, for me, is a new language. I reckon that Lisp is more powerful than Algol 68, and that's really saying something. The latter has neither macros  nor OOP, but it's a *context sensitive* language, not like all the context-free lingos which abound.
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2014-04-07T10:42:58Z Poenikatu: I am trying to learn a new way of programming: I accept that Lisp has helped me develop as a programmer, but, so far, I fail to see the usefulness of CLOS except that CLIM uses it.
2014-04-07T10:43:34Z dim: well then just forget about it for awhile
2014-04-07T10:43:48Z dim: I did only use structs and anonymous data structures at first
2014-04-07T10:43:54Z dim: you can get quite a long way with only that
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2014-04-07T10:44:36Z aerique: yeah same here, I usually use plists while developing and at some point they become too slow or I need to share the code and then it's time for structs or classes
2014-04-07T10:45:33Z dim: I like that structs define automatically initargs and accessors too
2014-04-07T10:45:54Z Poenikatu: dim: Yes, I agree
2014-04-07T10:46:39Z Poenikatu: dim: How can you specify an anonymous data structure?
2014-04-07T10:46:39Z dim: and you can also play with generic functions dispatch with the eql specifier
2014-04-07T10:46:51Z dim: Poenikatu: you don't that's why it's anonymous ;-)
2014-04-07T10:47:04Z Poenikatu: dim: Not with you
2014-04-07T10:47:08Z dim: you just play with lists of lists and some level of nesting
2014-04-07T10:47:16Z Poenikatu: Ok
2014-04-07T10:47:24Z dim: like '(a (1 . 2) b (3 . 4))
2014-04-07T10:47:46Z Poenikatu: Using dotted lists?
2014-04-07T10:47:51Z dim: you might have code that is happy with that kind of things and know to give meaning to it
2014-04-07T10:47:55Z dim: using whatever you want to ;-)
2014-04-07T10:48:23Z dim: it's unclean and an hassle to maintain the code
2014-04-07T10:48:44Z Poenikatu: dim: Do you mean "not using CLOS"?
2014-04-07T10:48:46Z dim: but for prototyping when you don't know how (or sometimes, which) problem to solve, it's nice to be able to do that
2014-04-07T10:48:52Z dim: oh yeah
2014-04-07T10:49:25Z Poenikatu: It would be nice to see some code which uses CLOS. Something more than trivial
2014-04-07T10:50:01Z dim: dsl-in-lisp is a good video tutorial
2014-04-07T10:50:12Z Poenikatu: dim: Where is it?
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2014-04-07T10:50:34Z dim: http://bc.tech.coop/blog/050711.html and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FlHq_iiDW0 and http://martinfowler.com/articles/languageWorkbench.html
2014-04-07T10:50:55Z Poenikatu: dim: Thanks. I'll look them up now.
2014-04-07T10:51:44Z Poenikatu: dim: Your first http I could not find (got a message from my ISP)
2014-04-07T10:51:56Z dim: the video did quite an impression on my when figuring out how to program in lisp
2014-04-07T10:52:19Z dim: I have the same error now, URL disappeared ;(
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2014-04-07T11:13:02Z Poenikatu: dim: Yes, I'm not surprised about your impression. What impresses me is how the narrator handled the editor of LispWorks. I didn't know one could do what he did. Specifically, highlighting a region. It takes me ages using Ctrl-X Space and then moving the cursor.
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2014-04-07T11:15:08Z xificurC: can someone explain what steps does parenscript take to generate javascript code? How and what transformations are made to the code up to the point it becomes a simple textual representation of javascript code?
2014-04-07T11:17:43Z Poenikatu: dim: Your last URL gives a long essay which I shall not read (I read the opening paragraphs). Going back to the video, his familiarity with macros is also impressive. I confess I do not have that kind of fluency with the Lisp idiom. That's why I'm doing a lot of reading.
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2014-04-07T11:18:26Z Poenikatu: I *have* written some useful Lisp programs now (making all the footnotes in Practical Common Lisp active, for example).
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2014-04-07T11:21:51Z Poenikatu: dim: The fact is, I learn better from books than from speaking/videos. That video went too fast for me to comprehend his actions. With reading, I can take my time.
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2014-04-07T11:26:22Z dim: Poenikatu: try C-M-SPC runs the command mark-sexp
2014-04-07T11:26:57Z dim: I have a working lisp code version of the demo around
2014-04-07T11:27:20Z Poenikatu: dim: Have you got LispWorks yourself?
2014-04-07T11:27:42Z dim: Emacs
2014-04-07T11:28:25Z dim: Poenikatu: http://paste.lisp.org/display/141942
2014-04-07T11:28:34Z Poenikatu: dim: That Youtube video was on LispWorks on Mac OS X.
2014-04-07T11:28:36Z dim: not sure it's all ok but at least you can play with that
2014-04-07T11:28:48Z dim: yeah but you can use Emacs and Slime for the same effects
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2014-04-07T11:30:53Z Poenikatu: Thanks for the paste. Will study it. Leaving now for lunch. See ya!
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2014-04-07T11:41:09Z puchacz: hi, isn't puri broken for escaped URLs like "/wiki/Wikis%82ownik:Najcz%99stsze_b%82%99dy" ?
2014-04-07T11:41:23Z puchacz: oh, even IRC is trying to unescape them
2014-04-07T11:41:51Z jdz: *your IRC client
2014-04-07T11:42:00Z puchacz: ok
2014-04-07T11:43:00Z puchacz: nevertheless, puri seems broken for escaped URLs
2014-04-07T11:43:20Z jdz: puchacz: broken how?
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2014-04-07T11:44:02Z puchacz: path is shown as thi: "/wiki/Wikisłownik:Najczęstsze_błędy"
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2014-04-07T11:44:36Z puchacz: it should be either decoded, so /wiki/Wikisłownik:Najczęstsze_błędy
2014-04-07T11:44:37Z puchacz: or
2014-04-07T11:44:50Z puchacz: left encoded as in input
2014-04-07T11:45:04Z puchacz: sbcl is unicode aware, so it is not this issue
2014-04-07T11:47:04Z jdz: puchacz: yes, the behaviour does not seem very helpful
2014-04-07T11:47:43Z mighta sings: "Puru-puru-pururin."
2014-04-07T11:48:08Z puchacz: is there anything else (library) that has a function similar to merge-urls?
2014-04-07T11:48:16Z puchacz: this is what I need puri for
2014-04-07T11:49:58Z aerique: Does this hang for anyone else?: (local-time:timestamp+ (local-time:encode-timestamp 0 0 0 2 29 3 2014) 1 :day)   this is on SBCL 1.1.15.debian with the latest local-time from Quicklisp
2014-04-07T11:50:43Z aerique: Hmm, timezone might be relevant, timestamp is: @2014-03-29T02:00:00.000000+01:00
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2014-04-07T11:51:53Z aerique: Then again it might not be relevant.  Oh, my country (NL) switch from DST on the 30th of March.
2014-04-07T11:52:30Z dkcl: aerique: @2014-03-30T02:00:00.000000Z, instantly
2014-04-07T11:53:55Z aerique: Ah, I can add my case to an existing issue on GitHub.  Maybe I'll look at it myself when I've got time.  Thanks, dkcl.
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2014-04-07T12:01:39Z splittist: puchacz: is there no way to specify a charset? AIUI the uri spec leaves that up to the particular uri sheme.
2014-04-07T12:02:04Z puchacz: splittist: checking...
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2014-04-07T12:02:39Z puchacz: nope
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2014-04-07T12:03:09Z pjb: aerique: it takes more than 10 seconds on ccl too. (not waiting for termination).
2014-04-07T12:06:25Z aerique: dkcl: what about "(local-time:timestamp+ (local-time:encode-timestamp 0 0 0 2 29 3 2014 :offset +3600) 1 :day)"
2014-04-07T12:06:50Z pjb: same.
2014-04-07T12:06:54Z aerique: this should make it similar to my system timezone-wise (if I understand it correctly)
2014-04-07T12:06:59Z aerique: pjb: thanks :)
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2014-04-07T12:23:03Z splittist: puchacz: are you sure those funny A's aren't just a font/encoding issue on your display? Are the char-codes actually different from what you want? Eyeballing the IF*-encrusted puri code it might be doing the right thing. (OTOH, I might not be looking at the right code.)
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2014-04-07T12:27:49Z puchacz: splittist: I downloaded manually (i.e. not from quicklisp) puri-unicode and it seems to be doing the right thing with encoding
2014-04-07T12:27:54Z puchacz: but there are other problems now
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2014-04-07T12:42:36Z dmiles: is there an Actively used MUD/MOO written in lisp?
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2014-04-07T13:28:39Z ener2: how can I get metaclass of class?
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2014-04-07T13:32:45Z dlowe: heh. hopefully within the year.
2014-04-07T13:32:55Z dlowe: I've been doing a codebase rewrite
2014-04-07T13:33:20Z dlowe: admittedly, it's been on and off for five years.
2014-04-07T13:33:36Z dlowe: but next year is the 20th anniversary, and I'd really like to have it done by then.
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2014-04-07T13:41:25Z Krystof: ener2: (class-of class)
2014-04-07T13:46:18Z ener2: Krystof: do all base classes of a class must be same metaclass?
2014-04-07T13:46:27Z Krystof: what?
2014-04-07T13:46:58Z theos: does CL have an equivalent of netcat?
2014-04-07T13:47:22Z ener2: (defclass blah (standard-class-metaclass-class) () (:metaclass foo)) doesn't seem to work
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2014-04-07T13:47:44Z Krystof: ener2: I think you need to work on the precision of your statements and questions
2014-04-07T13:48:23Z ener2: Krystof: I am not sure what is there not to understand. Do all base classes of class have to have same metaclass as this class?
2014-04-07T13:49:23Z splittist: there are base characters and base strings, but no base classes in CL (according to the hyperspec glossary)
2014-04-07T13:49:47Z ener2: superclass then
2014-04-07T13:49:50Z ener2: same thing, different name
2014-04-07T13:50:35Z oleo: a base class is a class which is intended to no be instantiated on it's own but be inherited from....
2014-04-07T13:50:46Z oleo: it's not cl specific....
2014-04-07T13:50:56Z oleo: it's OO terminology....
2014-04-07T13:51:16Z splittist: ener2: is your question: must the superclasses of a class have the same metaclass as the class? What happens when you try?
2014-04-07T13:51:44Z ener2: splittist: Error: #<STANDARD-CLASS BAR 20096547> is an invalid superclass of #<FOO-CLASS FOOBAR 20097C0F>.
2014-04-07T13:52:32Z oleo: ener2: best to provide the code....
2014-04-07T13:52:47Z oleo: paste somewhere.....
2014-04-07T13:53:13Z ener2: oleo: http://pastebin.com/5fLW2Zzh
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2014-04-07T14:08:46Z ubikation: Hey, how do I get a packages local bindings in top level usage in my lisp file? I want something like (use-package :hunchentoot) but it's not working as I expected it to.
2014-04-07T14:09:26Z oleo: ener2: (describe (defclass bar () ())) will show you
2014-04-07T14:10:03Z oleo: ener2: it inherits by default from standard-class standard-object and t, which are in it's direct-superclasses slot
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2014-04-07T14:11:12Z H4ns: ubikation: what are you trying and what do you expect?  try pasting what you do and what you see to paste.lisp.org
2014-04-07T14:15:10Z oleo: ener2: it's not inheriting from your metaclass, it inherits from clos standard metaclass so to say..... and when you try to say objects shall be of different metaclass.....
2014-04-07T14:15:23Z oleo: it can't resolve....
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2014-04-07T14:16:21Z kami: Hello #lisp
2014-04-07T14:16:40Z Fermata: o/
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2014-04-07T14:17:46Z leo2007: what flavor of lisp is used in lisp machine?
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2014-04-07T14:17:55Z oleo: ener2: i get a similar behaviour here on sbcl but it tells me i have to provide a hint via sb-mop:validate-superclass
2014-04-07T14:18:08Z oleo: for when it fails to resolve....
2014-04-07T14:18:31Z ener2: hmm
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2014-04-07T14:18:44Z oleo: you have to define methods....
2014-04-07T14:20:21Z splittist: leo2007: what sort of lisp machine, and when?
2014-04-07T14:20:27Z ubikation: here's the code I'm trying to get working: https://gist.github.com/ubikation/10021188
2014-04-07T14:20:40Z oleo: for class instantiation....
2014-04-07T14:22:55Z oleo: and if you already defined a metaclass why don't you inherit from it ?
2014-04-07T14:26:21Z theos: whats a good socket library?
2014-04-07T14:26:38Z oleo: usocket
2014-04-07T14:27:02Z oleo: and iolib
2014-04-07T14:27:13Z H4ns: ubikation: and what is the error that you see?
2014-04-07T14:27:29Z H4ns: ubikation: why don't you put the :use into your defpackage?
2014-04-07T14:30:19Z ener2: when I try to add new slot to class, I get this error
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2014-04-07T14:30:21Z ener2: Error: bad slot specification (:NAME AAA :READERS (AAA) :WRITERS ((SETF AAA)) :INITFORM NIL)
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2014-04-07T14:30:54Z theos: thanks oleo
2014-04-07T14:31:00Z ener2: i am using this function http://pastebin.com/bpRhHW83
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2014-04-07T14:37:10Z ener2: okay apparently initform doesn't work, unless not on it's own
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2014-04-07T15:04:44Z puchacz: hi, is this correct place to report errors with drakma pls? https://github.com/edicl/drakma/issues/41
2014-04-07T15:05:06Z H4ns: puchacz: yes.
2014-04-07T15:05:19Z H4ns: puchacz: did you try creating the puri:uri yourself and passing it to drakma?
2014-04-07T15:05:25Z dkcl: While this is rather off-topic, it's implementing Lisp I'm interested in, so - is there any particularly good book on the subject of garbage collection and Lisp compilers in general?
2014-04-07T15:05:30Z dkcl: I do have "LISP in small pieces"
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2014-04-07T15:06:03Z puchacz: H4ns - I think it wouldn't work, because to render GET /my/path?whatever=X it creates ad-hoc temporary uri object anyway
2014-04-07T15:06:11Z puchacz: and this is where unicode is escaped twice
2014-04-07T15:06:13Z H4ns: puchacz: also, the code snippet in your bug report is unreadable.
2014-04-07T15:06:18Z pjb: The new edition of the dragon book has a chapter about garbage collection.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compilers:_Principles,_Techniques,_and_Tools
2014-04-07T15:06:46Z Bike: dkcl: http://gchandbook.org/
2014-04-07T15:06:49Z pjb: Otherwise, why don't you just google for the papers directly? That's the best source.
2014-04-07T15:07:10Z puchacz: H4ns: I don't know if I can control formatting in there
2014-04-07T15:07:14Z H4ns: puchacz: did you try it? also, did you set the correct encodings for your outgoing requests.
2014-04-07T15:07:32Z H4ns: puchacz: are you asking me to find out for you?
2014-04-07T15:07:38Z dkcl: pjb: That's what I'm doing, but I trust fellow Lispers' judgment
2014-04-07T15:07:39Z puchacz: H4ns: no
2014-04-07T15:07:43Z dkcl: pjb, Bike: Thanks!
2014-04-07T15:08:02Z dkcl: judgement *
2014-04-07T15:08:04Z puchacz: you already answered my question "is this the right place". now you are asking questions
2014-04-07T15:09:12Z H4ns: puchacz: please try whether you can get it to work if you supply a puri:uri.  also make sure that your external formats are set correctly, as i think the encoding of urls is influenced by that.
2014-04-07T15:09:37Z puchacz: ok
2014-04-07T15:09:53Z puchacz: you mean workaround without modifying drakma?
2014-04-07T15:10:25Z H4ns: puchacz: i mean first finding out what the problem is.  you're asking for a specific encoding to be used, but the question is who is to blame for not using the right encoding.
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2014-04-07T15:11:20Z puchacz: H4ns: it is certainly wrong, the current behaviour. I start with latin-1 string, encoded as per w3c specs I can imagine
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2014-04-07T15:11:42Z puchacz: I am not creating objects uri myself, I just pass strings
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2014-04-07T15:12:48Z puchacz: so even if it works for some combination of inputs, it is a workaround
2014-04-07T15:12:50Z H4ns: puchacz: you are passing an already encoded uri string, and drakma does the right thing by encoding it again.  it does not know that the url is already encoded, and how should it?
2014-04-07T15:12:58Z H4ns: puchacz: so if you want to avoid that, pass a puri:uri
2014-04-07T15:14:09Z H4ns: puchacz: you could set the right external formats for your request and then pass your non-ascii characters un-encoded and expect drakma to encode them correctly.  so far, i can't see how you'd already try that, though.
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2014-04-07T15:16:40Z ubikation: so this is where I'm currently at: https://gist.github.com/ubikation/10022245
2014-04-07T15:17:04Z H4ns: ubikation: restart your lisp
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2014-04-07T15:19:26Z pjb: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nn2FB1P_Mn8
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2014-04-07T15:32:51Z puchacz: I would like to add logging to a library function
2014-04-07T15:33:01Z puchacz: if it was method, I would add :around or :before
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2014-04-07T15:33:54Z puchacz: can I "upgrade" function to method with some clever combination of fmakunbound and eval-when?
2014-04-07T15:34:30Z dlowe: puchacz: it's easier if you just shadow the symbol to call your function
2014-04-07T15:35:02Z puchacz: dlowe: but then internal calls (wihtin the library) won't trigger my logging
2014-04-07T15:35:02Z splittist: puchacz: perhaps your implementation does advice
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2014-04-07T15:35:12Z dlowe: you could also just overwrite the function.
2014-04-07T15:35:32Z puchacz: ok, no worries - I will do some manual hack
2014-04-07T15:35:55Z dlowe: (progn (setf (symbol-function '%foo) (symbol-function 'foo)) (defun foo () (log) (%foo)))
2014-04-07T15:36:24Z puchacz: dlowe: ok, thx
2014-04-07T15:36:33Z pjb: There are libraries implementing defadvice.
2014-04-07T15:36:58Z pjb: Of course, if you had used a generic functions you could just have written (defmethod foo :before (…) (log))
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2014-04-07T15:37:30Z puchacz: pjb: I will change definition to generic functions, it seems easiest. after all I have source
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2014-04-07T15:42:24Z splittist: On sbcl you might get what you want with trace and some combination of :report nil and :print[-*] or :condition...
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2014-04-07T15:46:19Z ener2: can I call method with funcall?
2014-04-07T15:46:25Z ener2: or do I need something special?
2014-04-07T15:46:32Z H4ns: ener2: you can't call methods, just functions.
2014-04-07T15:46:42Z nyef: A specific method, or a generic function that it's attached to?
2014-04-07T15:46:48Z H4ns: ener2: i mean, you can, but it is complicated and not a normally supported operation.
2014-04-07T15:46:59Z ener2: nyef just generic function
2014-04-07T15:47:40Z nyef: Sure, a GF is still a function.
2014-04-07T15:48:21Z ener2: well it fails with wrong number of arguments
2014-04-07T15:48:23Z ener2: http://pastebin.com/WYYUVxVY
2014-04-07T15:48:26Z ener2: that last funcall
2014-04-07T15:49:12Z ener2: hmm nvm calling wrong method
2014-04-07T15:49:23Z H4ns: you cannot call methods.  you can call functions.
2014-04-07T15:49:25Z nyef: Yeah, I was going to say...
2014-04-07T15:49:39Z pjb: Notice that find-method gives you a method, but I see nothing in CLHS that says that it's a funcallable object.
2014-04-07T15:49:42Z ener2: isn't that technicality?
2014-04-07T15:49:48Z ener2: at the end, some method is called
2014-04-07T15:49:57Z ener2: because GF will call defined method somewhere
2014-04-07T15:50:01Z Krystof: ener2: I think you need to work on the precision of your statements and questions
2014-04-07T15:50:02Z nyef: In the end, an "effective method" is called.
2014-04-07T15:50:24Z nyef: Wasn't it said that "technicalities are the soul of the law" or something like that?
2014-04-07T15:50:38Z Krystof: if not, it just has been
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2014-04-07T16:02:01Z leo2007: splittist: open genera 2
2014-04-07T16:03:25Z nyef: leo2007: So, well-post-Lisp Machine Lisp, and on the Symbolics branch rather than the LMI / TI branch...?
2014-04-07T16:05:06Z splittist: zetalisp and common lisp?
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2014-04-07T16:05:59Z nyef: Zetalisp would be the LMI/TI branch.
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2014-04-07T16:08:56Z nyef: I guess it might be both branches, I'm REALLY not familiar with the Genera side of things.
2014-04-07T16:11:51Z splittist: Symbolics used zetalisp. And symbolics lisp. And common lisp. And symbolics common lisp (CL+Flavors and some other stuff).
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2014-04-07T16:13:30Z splittist: (and Fortran and Pascal and MACSYMA, of course). I guess Genera just inherited that.
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2014-04-07T16:13:56Z nyef: Flavors either inherits from Lisp Machine Lisp or was reimplemented for LMI.
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2014-04-07T16:19:05Z p_l: nyef: Symbolics was Zetalisp + Symbolics Common Lisp
2014-04-07T16:19:30Z p_l: Symbolics Lisp afaik was interchangeable name for Zetalisp on Genera
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2014-04-07T16:21:11Z nyef: Okay, so it would probably have been renamed from Lisp Machine Lisp to Zetalisp prior to the split?
2014-04-07T16:21:13Z oleo: base class == abstract class
2014-04-07T16:21:43Z p_l: nyef: I think those two names were related
2014-04-07T16:22:09Z oleo: == no instantiation
2014-04-07T16:22:21Z oleo: derived blass == concrete class == instantiation
2014-04-07T16:22:21Z p_l: (also, ZWEI and Zmacs suggest some general naming theme)
2014-04-07T16:22:28Z oleo: s/blass/class/ bleh
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2014-04-07T16:30:18Z splittist: "Zetalisp was the name of the Symbolics version of Lisp-machine Lisp [developed at MIT]. ... Zetalisp came to require a significant set of capabilities not seen in any single Lisp to this point. ... The primary addition ... was Flavors ... driven by the needs of the ... window system ... for a long time ... regarded as the only example of a system ...
2014-04-07T16:30:18Z splittist: requir[ing] multiple inheritance."
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2014-04-07T16:30:38Z splittist: Gabriel and Steele, Evolution of Lisp, HOPL2
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2014-04-07T16:32:59Z whartung: any particular innovations that were left behind in ZetaLisp that didn't make it in to Common Lisp, or overshadowed by something newer/better?
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2014-04-07T16:33:24Z p_l: whartung: there were some nice features like relative symbols
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2014-04-07T16:33:36Z whartung: I've never heard of those
2014-04-07T16:33:47Z p_l: a bunch of stuff was more related to the OS environment or machine rather than language
2014-04-07T16:34:44Z p_l: relative symbols would be similar to hierarchical packages or package-local nicknames
2014-04-07T16:34:49Z p_l: (especially the latter)
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2014-04-07T16:34:54Z whartung: huh ok
2014-04-07T16:35:25Z whartung: Did ZL have lexical scoping? were the relative symbols a way to address that in a dynamic environment, or were they simply a namespace aliasing thing?
2014-04-07T16:35:27Z p_l: except they were part of Zetalisp/Symbolics Common Lisp rather than having to be modded in
2014-04-07T16:35:58Z p_l: ZL was, at least by the end, similar to CL, and the symbols were mostly an aliasing thing, afaik
2014-04-07T16:36:37Z p_l: PACKAGE::( ... forms ... ) thing you can do in current SBCL is afaik also from Genera
2014-04-07T16:37:51Z p_l: whartung: the things that made Genera memorable were more the whole of the system and programming environment
2014-04-07T16:37:59Z whartung: sure
2014-04-07T16:38:09Z p_l: also, Dynamic Windows and CLIM
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2014-04-07T16:38:44Z p_l: it did have Pascal, C and Fortran 77 implementations as well
2014-04-07T16:38:49Z whartung: I never had the opportunity to dabble with one. I worked in a TI Explorer back in the day, but with no training, no lisp experience, it wasn't a particularly fruitful experience.
2014-04-07T16:39:19Z p_l: I think I had seen someone demo compiling libjpeg on Genera and using it to decode a colour JPEG image on screen
2014-04-07T16:39:35Z p_l: including debugging
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2014-04-07T16:40:09Z whartung: Yea, pretty sure Rainer has posted videos of his
2014-04-07T16:40:20Z p_l: ... reminds me to try booting my VM again
2014-04-07T16:40:39Z whartung: I came close to buying a Mac Genera combo, but decided not to.
2014-04-07T16:41:31Z p_l: whartung: unless you care about license of essentially dead program (given that both re-releases ended up dead, apparently), it might be better to hunt down a working Alpha machine and a copy of Digital Unix (Tru64)
2014-04-07T16:41:56Z p_l: whartung: then grabbing the ISO of OpenGenera from TPB
2014-04-07T16:42:31Z nyef: If you're going to go that route, mind doing a bit of maintenance on SBCL as well? (-:
2014-04-07T16:42:45Z p_l: Peter Payne has a bunch of tapes with software for Genera, too
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2014-04-07T16:43:28Z p_l: I suspect one could do a more complete emulation of Ivory-based LispM based on material from OpenGenera
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2014-04-07T16:44:17Z nyef: The real challenge would be to try and get someone to do a more modern TI machine emulation.
2014-04-07T16:44:46Z p_l: eh, the Meroku seems to mostly die on some timer or screensaver support
2014-04-07T16:45:20Z nyef: Mmm. And I don't know that I actually released the last version of nevermore, and even that doesn't really have keyboard or mouse support.
2014-04-07T16:45:39Z whartung: if I had my druthers, I'd rather sit with someone who actually had access and knew what they were doing so they could give a robust demonstration of the system.
2014-04-07T16:45:51Z nyef: But I was thinking an emulator for a Hummingbird system such as the Explorer II or the microExplorer.
2014-04-07T16:46:07Z p_l: nyef: I think I could build a machine to run the Xerox lisp machine, thoguh
2014-04-07T16:46:09Z p_l: *though
2014-04-07T16:46:23Z nyef: Interlisp-D?
2014-04-07T16:46:28Z p_l: yes
2014-04-07T16:46:50Z nyef: ... Does Giggles the Magical Clown still own the rights to Interlisp?
2014-04-07T16:46:58Z p_l: what is needed is a set of libs to run a particularly old linux executable
2014-04-07T16:47:04Z p_l: nyef: ... wait wat
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2014-04-07T16:48:10Z whartung: I'm more interested in advancing the state of the, with inspirations from the past, than so much reliving it .
2014-04-07T16:48:18Z p_l: whartung: hehe, true
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2014-04-07T16:50:00Z Vivitron: B
2014-04-07T16:50:00Z p_l: that's partially why I want to make an easily accessible way of seeing what has been
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2014-04-07T18:18:00Z ferada: nyah.
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2014-04-07T18:18:15Z ferada: oops, nvmd
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2014-04-07T18:19:50Z ferada: but btw. is there some kind / which library has some sort of "good-looking" asdf (3) file to base from?
2014-04-07T18:20:38Z nyef: I believe that Xach requires a certain minimum standard for the asdf files in Quicklisp.
2014-04-07T18:20:58Z ferada: author and description, yes?
2014-04-07T18:21:31Z ferada: any guess for "best" test integration?
2014-04-07T18:22:10Z nyef: That I can't help you with, I'm afraid.
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2014-04-07T18:24:14Z ferada: mhm, find-grep for test-op could work; guess i'm trying that
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2014-04-07T18:26:29Z Xach: license, too
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2014-04-07T18:34:04Z ferada: right, there should really be a field to indicate supported lisps. #-(or sbcl ...)(error ...) is evil
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2014-04-07T18:38:06Z pjb: ferada: it's not that it's evil, it's that it will prevent inclusing in quicklisp: the minimum standard Xach requires is that it compiles with sbcl on linux.  So you must use :components #+sbcl () #-sbcl ("my" "components") for systems that works only on non-sbcl implementations.
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2014-04-07T18:40:10Z nyef: x86oid linux, not merely linux, surely?
2014-04-07T18:40:14Z ferada: pjb: (atm) i'm not interested in quicklisp. the above was in cl-store's asdf file
2014-04-07T18:41:21Z ferada: and i'd assume i can load the system definition even if the library itself doesn't work
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2014-04-07T18:44:54Z Xach: You can, "just" push :sbcl on *features*
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2014-04-07T19:03:33Z jasom: ferada: there is "quickproject" in quicklisp that generates a bare set of files for a system for you
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2014-04-07T20:07:19Z jeti`: greetings from Hamburg's Lisp round table
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2014-04-07T20:08:51Z dlowe: Hi, Hamburg!
2014-04-07T20:09:25Z jeti`: hi, three lispers here
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2014-04-07T20:10:42Z nyef: ... The Knights of Hamburg's Lisp round table?
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2014-04-07T20:10:56Z dlowe: What's Hamburg making?
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2014-04-07T21:06:09Z pollyy: a question about quasiqouting: is `(f ,x ,@y) effectively the same as `(apply f ',(cons x y)) ?
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2014-04-07T21:08:08Z oleo: no it's the same as '(f (eval x) ......)
2014-04-07T21:08:24Z oleo: the rest was a splice
2014-04-07T21:08:59Z oleo: and evaling that in the repl will get the form (f (eval x).....) to the interpreter or the compiler....
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2014-04-07T21:09:16Z _death: pollyy: no.. the latter quotes the subforms
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2014-04-07T21:11:59Z oleo: so '(f (eval x) '(subforms)) ?
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2014-04-07T21:13:36Z Bike: don't bring in eval
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2014-04-07T21:15:29Z pollyy: i'm a bit confused about this. formulating the question was about the limit of my understanding :)
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2014-04-07T21:17:00Z Bike: `(apply f ,(cons x y))
2014-04-07T21:17:49Z Bike: eh, that's wrong too probably
2014-04-07T21:20:12Z _death: `(apply f ,(cons 'list (cons x y)))
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2014-04-07T21:22:28Z pollyy: it occurred to me that unquote-splicing could perhaps always be written in terms of normal unquote, apply and cons (a lot more verbosely obviously). i haven't written much lisp so maybe that's obviously false?
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2014-04-07T21:23:17Z _death: any backquote stuff can be eliminated
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2014-04-07T21:24:31Z _death: `(f ,x ,@y) is similar to (append (list 'f x) y)
2014-04-07T21:25:36Z pollyy: yes, i see
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2014-04-07T21:27:45Z pollyy: so we might say the whole of quasiquoting is just a convenience but splicing is a convenience on top of a convenience?
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2014-04-07T21:28:34Z jasom: perhaps; IIRC the hyperspec talks about quasiquoting in terms like _death mentions
2014-04-07T21:29:00Z jasom: pollyy: quasiquoting is certainly much less useful without splicing
2014-04-07T21:30:23Z pollyy: in that case it's just like normal but with "on/off" inverted, right?
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2014-04-07T21:31:34Z therik: ,iirc
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2014-04-07T21:34:24Z Bike: you'd just use list instead of append, sorta. `(a ,b c) -> (list 'a b 'c)
2014-04-07T21:35:23Z oGMo: list and list* iirc get you all of that
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2014-04-07T21:37:06Z therik: ,IIRC
2014-04-07T21:37:12Z therik: where's the bot when you need him?
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2014-04-07T21:39:12Z Xach: minion, are you here?
2014-04-07T21:39:12Z minion: maybe
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2014-04-07T21:42:04Z pollyy: what's probably my first mistake is writing a lisp implementation as a way to learn lisp. i couldn't come up with a way to have 1 impl of splicing be robust both in and outside of macros, so wondered whethered normal unquote, which works, is sufficient
2014-04-07T21:42:55Z pollyy: thanks for the tips, I'll head scratch some more tomorrow :)
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2014-04-07T21:43:30Z _death: don't forget it also works with vectors.. `#(here ,@foo there)
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2014-04-07T21:45:12Z oleo: maybe lol
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2014-04-07T21:49:04Z oGMo: pollyy: yeah probably not the best way.. you're juggling learning 3-4 major things at the same time, plus a lot of minor ones
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2014-04-07T21:53:45Z Bike: implementing quasiquote does sound like some kind of educational, though
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2014-04-07T21:55:03Z pollyy: it's going ok. it's purely an interpreter for yet another dialect (boos acknowledged). about the biggest brain killer and maybe a mistake has been having the macros first-class, i.e. they can be anonymous
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2014-04-07T22:01:25Z oGMo: pollyy: i'm not sure that would be much different .. e.g. a macro-lambda form
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2014-04-07T22:01:36Z oGMo: it just gets expanded at macroexpansion time
2014-04-07T22:02:45Z oGMo: if you actually return a function and don't expand it, it's not really different than a lambda
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2014-04-07T22:04:54Z pollyy: yes, it's just piggybacked on top of most of the normal lambda. what's causing me trouble is the extra level of indirection caused by macro parameters getting symbolic names and other parts of the implementation not being aware of that
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2014-04-07T22:05:20Z oGMo: you're probably trying too hard heh
2014-04-07T22:06:11Z _death: (defmacro meta (&body forms) (let ((do-it (gensym))) `(macrolet ((,do-it () ,@forms)) (,do-it))))
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2014-04-07T22:08:55Z pollyy: it's issues of my own making because of the way I've structured things
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2014-04-07T22:09:41Z pollyy: but I'm probably 85% finished and don't expect anyone else to use it or read the source :)
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2014-04-07T22:24:39Z jasom: pollyy: putting the macros in a separate package solves a lot of that
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2014-04-07T22:34:32Z pollyy: jasom: an example is if my quasiquote implementation sees (a ,@b) it doesn't have the context to know whether it should splice what b evaluates to or what b-evaluates-to-evalutes-to (as it should if the qq is the body of a macro and b names an unevaluated argument)
2014-04-07T22:35:23Z oGMo: that would be ,@,b
2014-04-07T22:35:29Z Bike: quasiquote works the same inside and outside of macros
2014-04-07T22:35:49Z oGMo: yeah you should really not be looking at macros as particularly special
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2014-04-07T22:37:37Z oGMo: also on a bit of further thought hte idea of an "anonymous" macro seems nonsensical, even a macro-lambda function would be pretty useless
2014-04-07T22:37:44Z pollyy: i end up with lists like (1 2 range 3 3) rather than (1 2 3 4 5)
2014-04-07T22:38:13Z Bike: pollyy: maybe you have a macro that expands to (list 1 2 range 3 3) and then that's evaluated, see
2014-04-07T22:38:15Z oGMo: well, without immediate calling, e.g. (macro-lambda (..) *actual-parameters* &body)
2014-04-07T22:38:36Z Bike: i can imagine a few somewhat esoteric applications
2014-04-07T22:38:59Z drewc see macro-lambda, thinks FEXPRs, and goes back to work.
2014-04-07T22:39:00Z oGMo: Bike: that would be (1 2 (3 4) 3 3) or whatever, though
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2014-04-07T22:44:44Z pollyy: oGMo: it probably is useless, but apart from my splicing issue they do seem to work, and it seems a nice uniformity for everything to be first class
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2014-04-07T22:50:42Z pollyy: anyway, I'll stop spamming the channel. you gotta realise I've never written any "real lisp" so I'm at the confluence of flailing and happy hacking :)
2014-04-07T22:50:50Z pollyy: thanks for your help
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2014-04-07T22:55:12Z axion: i have a design problem i am looking for ways to work around. its sort of off-topic as not related to lisp code, albeit lisp code. do you know where i could ask?
2014-04-07T22:55:49Z sykopomp: drewc: have you given up on the fexpr dream?
2014-04-07T22:57:25Z drewc: sykopomp: nay, have not. Just have not had the time to play with such things recently, so have to relearn the dream and nightmares I suppose.
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2014-04-07T23:12:52Z jasom: `(foo ,bar ,@baz) => (append (list `foo) (list bar) baz)
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2014-04-07T23:13:58Z jasom: pollyy: I don't see how macros can complicate the above transformation
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2014-04-07T23:15:19Z nyef: Quasiquote and macros are orthogonal, but complement each other very, very well.
2014-04-07T23:16:24Z jasom: quasiquotation is useful for anything that returns s-expressions; macros are a (in)famous subset of that
2014-04-07T23:17:01Z nyef: On the one hand, a Lisp implementation as a first Lisp project seems a bit odd, on the other hand, that's kindof how I learned Forth, and is one interpretation of MY first real Lisp project.
2014-04-07T23:18:21Z oGMo: the main issue is not being familiar with how things are typically accomplished in lisp, or how features are used, and trying to implement them while learning the practical application of them
2014-04-07T23:18:37Z oGMo: doable, certainly, just perhaps not the most expedient
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2014-04-07T23:19:06Z oGMo: though if one is implementing the lisp in lisp, it may be a pretty good exercise
2014-04-07T23:19:15Z oGMo: learn a feature, learn how it was made
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2014-04-08T01:15:23Z pillton: Has anyone here read this? http://www.fishpond.com.au/Books/Pattern-Calculus-Barry-Jay/9783540891840
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2014-04-08T05:02:06Z mcdonji: I'm perusing the options for linear algebra in lisp. Does anyone have suggestions? I'm planning on starting with GSLL, is that a reasonable place to start playing?
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2014-04-08T05:11:03Z pillton: mcdonji: I haven't used GSLL, but I have written my own library. If you stick to one array element type then accessing LAPACK functions is straight forward via CFFI.
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2014-04-08T05:19:26Z mcdonji: I see. Sounds like shelling out to a not lisp library is the general direction. Those are probably fast but I can't help but want to try a lisp library. The lispy ones seem to be mostly abandoned.
2014-04-08T05:20:08Z pillton: mcdonji: I use a lisp library. It is my own. e.g. http://hastebin.com/pacaluroto
2014-04-08T05:20:26Z pjb: mcdonji: it's not the general direction.
2014-04-08T05:20:37Z pjb: The general direction would be to rewrite the library in lisp, to get better performance.
2014-04-08T05:20:42Z pjb: But people are lazy.
2014-04-08T05:20:55Z pillton: pjb: Lazy? Seriously.
2014-04-08T05:20:59Z pjb: Try maxima.
2014-04-08T05:22:32Z pillton: pjb: I started to write my own SVD routines in Lisp. It takes a long time to do it from scratch.
2014-04-08T05:22:56Z pjb: or you could use Vaciatis to compile C code into lisp.
2014-04-08T05:23:16Z pjb: vacietis the lis
2014-04-08T05:23:31Z pjb: vacietis https://github.com/vsedach/Vacietis
2014-04-08T05:26:41Z mcdonji: pjb: Vacietis looks neat. I'm just looking to play right now. Maybe after I've tried a few things out.
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2014-04-08T05:26:48Z Zhivago: Instead of shelling out, you might consider RPC.
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2014-04-08T05:34:07Z mcdonji: Thanks for the thoughts! Later.
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2014-04-08T06:49:51Z zenyfish: good morning!
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2014-04-08T07:15:21Z mzgcz: http://paste.lisp.org/display/141953     what will done when put a list to hashtable
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2014-04-08T07:23:25Z H4ns: mzgcz: your problem is not the values, but the keys
2014-04-08T07:23:39Z H4ns: mzgcz: "foo" is not necessarily EQL to "foo"
2014-04-08T07:23:53Z H4ns: mzgcz: use :test #'equal in make-hash-table, be happy.
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2014-04-08T07:30:29Z mzgcz: H4ns, yes you are right
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2014-04-08T07:32:50Z H4ns: mzgcz: you're welcome.
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2014-04-08T08:06:52Z xificurC: how can I get a handle on all files/folders in a directory?
2014-04-08T08:07:35Z dim: standard, with the directory function, other than that, you have tools to do that in asdf and uiop, cl-fad and iolib
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2014-04-08T08:07:58Z dim: I've been using several of those and would recommand iolib for the whole thing, or cl-fad for a quick&dirty solution
2014-04-08T08:08:08Z dim: (I know some here will disagree on the quick&dirty labelling)
2014-04-08T08:08:26Z xificurC: dim: I'll take a look thanks
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2014-04-08T08:09:02Z dim: iolib.os and iolib.pathnames is covering most of the unix integration needs around file system and pathnames
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2014-04-08T08:10:25Z xificurC: hm, i got stuck saying my asdf version is old
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2014-04-08T08:22:55Z xificurC: Error while trying to load definition for system iolib from
2014-04-08T08:22:56Z xificurC: pathname   error while parsing arguments to DESTRUCTURING-BIND:
2014-04-08T08:22:56Z xificurC: odd number of elements in keyword/value list: (:PATHNAME)
2014-04-08T08:22:56Z xificurC: [Condition of type ASDF/FIND-SYSTEM:LOAD-SYSTEM-DEFINITION-ERROR]
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2014-04-08T08:27:11Z xificurC: :pathname "src/base/",  :pathname "src/conf/",  :pathname "src/new-cl/",  :pathname "src/base/",  :pathname "src/grovel/",  :pathname "src/syscalls/",  :pathname "src/multiplex/",  :pathname "src/streams/gray/",  :pathname "src/sockets/",  :pathname "src/sockets/",  :pathname "src/pathnames/",  :pathname "src/os/",  :pathname "src/iolib/",  :pathname "tests/",     :pathname #+unix "file-paths-unix"),  :pathname "examples/",
2014-04-08T08:27:22Z H4ns: xificurC: can you please spare us?
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2014-04-08T08:27:35Z dim: fe[nl]ix might be able to help, or #iolib
2014-04-08T08:27:45Z H4ns: xificurC: remove your .cache/common-lisp, get a fresh copy of sbcl and quicklisp, try again.
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2014-04-08T08:28:56Z xificurC: H4ns: well sure, I know I'm asking stupid questions, I just dont know who to turn to
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2014-04-08T08:41:23Z H4ns: xificurC: i object to the pasting of meaningless crap, not to questions
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2014-04-08T09:05:28Z xificurC: H4ns: im sorry I dont mean to post meaningless crap
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2014-04-08T09:08:43Z xificurC: you gotta understand though that this is about the only place I can get help with anything regarding common lisp. If my presence or one or two stupid questions are too much of a trouble I can just shut up
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2014-04-08T09:10:42Z H4ns: why don't you concentrate on solving your problem?  did you ditch your cache and reinstall sbcl and quicklisp?
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2014-04-08T09:11:51Z xificurC: H4ns: had some work to do, sorry. And was searching for cache on windows
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2014-04-08T10:56:33Z xificurC: does iolib support windows?
2014-04-08T10:57:07Z H4ns: xificurC: no
2014-04-08T10:57:32Z xificurC: H4ns: i guess thats why reinstalling everything didnt help then
2014-04-08T10:58:10Z H4ns: xificurC: quite possible.  most people here use free software, hence freenode :)
2014-04-08T10:58:31Z xificurC: H4ns: anything you could recommend? All I wanted was to try and write a couple of shell-like commands like ls, cd etc
2014-04-08T10:58:53Z H4ns: xificurC: if you want shell commands, use unix or some descend of it.
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2014-04-08T10:59:53Z xificurC: H4ns: I have slackware at home so dont jump to conclusions
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2014-04-08T11:00:02Z xificurC: i dont have that much choice at work
2014-04-08T11:00:05Z splittist: xificurC: do you want to write a shell, or commands that can be used from a shell, or ...?
2014-04-08T11:00:32Z H4ns: xificurC: you're making it hard to be of help.  you said you're using windows, now it is slackware.
2014-04-08T11:00:59Z xificurC: splittist: my idea was to just play around and write a couple of functions in cl that could be called in the repl
2014-04-08T11:01:30Z xificurC: H4ns: or you are not reading the whole sentence, or both comments
2014-04-08T11:02:48Z xificurC: splittist: something that would dump me a list of files/directories in a directory was what I was looking for. Or basically something that can generally handle such tasks
2014-04-08T11:03:07Z splittist: xificurC: I would go right back to the beginning and look at how DIRECTORY works for you. Then perhaps uiop/<whatever directory stuff fare has put in there>
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2014-04-08T11:06:08Z splittist: As for 'cd', you could create *my-current-working-directory* and use that in your various command implementations. You might end up with pushing and popping directories and all sorts of stuff.
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2014-04-08T11:07:28Z pjb: Or you have the freedom to use some software that already does that.
2014-04-08T11:07:40Z xificurC: splittist: thanks for the help. When I run (directory #P"/") I get (#P"c:/") as the result so I guess something is happening, but I dont know what. How would I get the contents of it?
2014-04-08T11:08:00Z pjb: Use a wildcard pathname.
2014-04-08T11:08:09Z splittist: xificurC: Reading chapters 19 and 20 of the spec would help
2014-04-08T11:08:59Z splittist: xificurC: You are unlikely to come to an understanding of pathnames by blindly typing stuff and expressing your surprise at the results on #lisp
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2014-04-08T11:11:59Z xificurC: splittist: thank you :)
2014-04-08T11:13:44Z hitecnologys: Is it OK to use classes if instances are going to be created very often (hundreds of times per second) or I should better stick to (defstruct (foo (:type list)) ...)?
2014-04-08T11:14:03Z H4ns: hitecnologys: you need to measure yourself
2014-04-08T11:14:10Z pjb: Some implementations implement structures as CLOS classes. so…
2014-04-08T11:14:33Z hitecnologys: The question was actually more about memory managemnt than speed.
2014-04-08T11:14:44Z H4ns: hitecnologys: explain.
2014-04-08T11:15:15Z hitecnologys: Would classes consume much more memory than plain lists? Is GC fine with what I'm going to do?
2014-04-08T11:15:42Z pjb: plain lists are bound to consume twice the amount of memory as an object or structure.
2014-04-08T11:15:55Z H4ns: hitecnologys: again, measure yourself.
2014-04-08T11:15:59Z pjb: (unless cdr-coding is implemented, which hasn't been since the lisp machines).
2014-04-08T11:16:30Z pjb: You'd be much better off, NOT asking yourself those questions.  Think about your problem and the algorithm solving it!
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2014-04-08T11:16:57Z hitecnologys: Well, the real question, I guess, is: is it a good idea to use classes' instances as an instrumpt of abstraction (data -> packing into instance -> other parts of program -> extracting data -> instance dumped).
2014-04-08T11:17:04Z H4ns: hitecnologys: there is nothing worse than advice taken from the internet blindly.  in this case, it means: whatever you're being told here, measure and find out.
2014-04-08T11:17:30Z hitecnologys: H4ns: sure thing, I was just wondering what other people may suggest.
2014-04-08T11:17:32Z H4ns: hitecnologys: of course, classes are a great tool to implement abstractions.
2014-04-08T11:17:39Z H4ns: hitecnologys: my suggestion: measure.
2014-04-08T11:17:40Z hitecnologys: H4ns: I see.
2014-04-08T11:17:50Z hitecnologys: pjb: CDR-coding?
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2014-04-08T11:18:55Z hitecnologys: pjb: you mean hardware supported linked lists?
2014-04-08T11:19:05Z pjb: I mean use google.
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2014-04-08T11:19:35Z pjb: There's a f…. wikipedia article about it!
2014-04-08T11:19:49Z hitecnologys: Yeah, I'm reading it right now.
2014-04-08T11:19:51Z H4ns: it must be this day.
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2014-04-08T11:20:25Z hitecnologys: pjb: sorry for bothering at first, I didn't parse the idea of the article correctly at initial reading.
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2014-04-08T11:21:58Z hitecnologys: OK, I'll change my DEFSTRUCTURE to DEFCLASS then and continue coding. Thanks for help.
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2014-04-08T11:23:21Z hitecnologys should probably do some benchmarks for this stuff later
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2014-04-08T11:43:11Z ggole: Lists can actually be represented more compactly
2014-04-08T11:43:19Z ggole: But you need them to be immutable
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2014-04-08T11:49:23Z Poenikatu: I'm trying to use the iterate package, but whenever I use "(for i ...)" slime tells me that "i" is unbound. So it appears that iterate no longer works. What has happened to it?
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2014-04-08T11:53:57Z Poenikatu: Xach: Has the iterate version that quicklisp loads been changed in recent times?
2014-04-08T11:54:38Z splittist: Poenikatu: do the other iterate constructs work?
2014-04-08T11:55:26Z Poenikatu: splittist: Not tried yet, but will do so now. Good question
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2014-04-08T11:57:22Z Poenikatu: splittist: repeat is an undefined function, so, apparently, no
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2014-04-08T12:01:47Z Poenikatu: splittist: I just tried your example and I get undefined function FOR, undefined variable I and FROM and TO
2014-04-08T12:02:21Z Poenikatu: The only difference between what your example and my input was that I called iter using (iter:iter
2014-04-08T12:03:23Z Poenikatu: splittist: Do you know where Zach Beane is? California? In which case, he's still abed
2014-04-08T12:03:27Z splittist: Poenikatu: think about why you had to qualify iter. Why wouldn't you have to do the same things for the other symbols from the iter package?
2014-04-08T12:03:56Z Poenikatu: splittist: Hm, you might be right. I'll try that
2014-04-08T12:04:25Z splittist: (defpackage itest (:use :cl :iterate)) (in-package :itest) ;; enjoy
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2014-04-08T12:05:32Z Poenikatu: splittist: Enjoy indeed, but your previous suggestion is spot on: preceding the FOR with iter: produces results. Interesting
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2014-04-08T12:08:26Z splittist: In general, if something doesn't work the way I think it should, as much as I want to blame my RAM, my processor, my OS, the compiler, the libraries or even my own program, it usually turns out to be my bad typing or my lack of understanding.
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2014-04-08T12:10:01Z jewel_: splittist, don't forget cosmic rays
2014-04-08T12:11:08Z Poenikatu: splittist: Ditto ditto!
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2014-04-08T12:37:08Z Xach: Abed?
2014-04-08T12:37:53Z Xach: Poenikatu: it changed in february
2014-04-08T12:37:57Z Xach: I don't know how
2014-04-08T12:38:17Z Xach: I get it from http://common-lisp.net/project/iterate/darcs/iterate and you could check the change log there.
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2014-04-08T12:39:05Z Poenikatu: Xach: Abed is English for "in bed". Yes, I'll check the change log. Thanks
2014-04-08T12:39:15Z Xach: I am never abed.
2014-04-08T12:39:25Z Xach: I am taken aback by the implication.
2014-04-08T12:39:26Z Poenikatu: Xach: So where do you sleep?
2014-04-08T12:39:37Z Xach: I am never asleep!
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2014-04-08T12:40:28Z Poenikatu: Xach: It occurred to me that you might be in California, in which case, the current time there is 05:40 in the morning
2014-04-08T12:40:31Z splittist: he dons his secret identity and fights crime!
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2014-04-08T12:42:40Z Poenikatu: His "never asleep" property must apply to most of the other 376 participants of this channel
2014-04-08T12:43:07Z Xach: 373 are bots
2014-04-08T12:43:09Z splittist: to be fair, the vast majority of them are bots.
2014-04-08T12:43:37Z Poenikatu: So, who makes them?
2014-04-08T12:43:41Z splittist thinks Xach 'typed' that suspiciously quickly...
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2014-04-08T12:44:48Z eagleflo_ is now known as eagleflo
2014-04-08T12:45:07Z Poenikatu: Is that what Lispers do in their spare time? Make bots to clutter #lisp?
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2014-04-08T12:49:29Z nyef: Messing with IRC client code in one way or another is a typical phase in the development of a #lisper.
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2014-04-08T13:37:59Z 
2014-04-08T13:37:59Z names: ccl-logbot Odin- przl danielsk qiemem drmeister oleo sandbender1512 Codynyx_ Codynyx ltbarcly dkcl sohail sroy_ amadsen hitecnologys_ milanj w0rm Joreji harovali ustunozgur zarul tensorpudding kushal schoppenhauer theBlackDragon eudoxia farhaven DGASAU araujo c74d WeirdEnthusiast ConstantineXVI ktx foom sshirokov nightshade427 sbryant ered Code_Man` alexherbo2 loke Mathieu lupine davorb Amaan superjudge adsisco brown`` guaqua`` wgreenhouse hugod nyef
2014-04-08T13:37:59Z names: frkout ecraven yacks JuanDaugherty Poenikatu antonv ikki michael_lee Okasu joneshf-laptop Kneferilis sg|polyneikes matko gabot nipra waa Patzy H4ns xificurC pchrist nydel Adlai ggherdov_ nialo nicdev` bjorkintosh v0|d``` rvchangue cross quasisane rtoym harish acieroid bege zenyfish TheMoonMaster arenz xan_ Fade finnrobi phadthai impulse dstolfa ozzloy seangrove tntc ft froggey cibs vert2 drdo benny endou_ joshe _tca pyon tali713 karupanerura gluegadget
2014-04-08T13:37:59Z names: GuilOooo Tristam cantstanya wchun naryl nisstyre felideon musicalchair hpd nha Tenkujin gensym killmaster d3f AntiSpamMeta tessier hyoyoung_home mikaelj setheus QwertyDragon quackv4 igorw faheem askatasuna funnel gigetoo emma tvaalen cmpitg sveit aoh z0d samebchase jack_rabbit drewc bjz yeltzooo K1rk LostDatagram foreignFunction j0ni kirin` zmyrgel sigjuice gf3 Posterdati mishoo smull dfox _schulte_ madnificent sykopomp zickzackv _5kg gko nullman dmiles
2014-04-08T13:37:59Z names: Vutral eee-blt d4gg4d___ EvW teiresias arbscht oconnore Shinmera pavelpenev AeroNotix Khisanth doomlord_ l_a_m flip214 rk[1] ferada DrCode Adeon aeth Baggers daimrod _8680__ kbtr andyo_ sauerkrause nuba __main__ djinni` sid_cypher InvalidCo keen_ jdz aerique mathrick jackdaniel zymurgy tomaw epsylon mood Ober _death cods p_l|backup nitro_idiot eak felipe johs clog sjl Neptu peccu3 Zhivago eMBee brucem spacebat jsnell_ ec tychoish specbot minion fnordbert
2014-04-08T13:37:59Z names: joga ar misv splittist nightfly dan64 Anarch wormphlegm yauz vhost- nialo` enn Borbus ianmcorvidae Kabaka_ sklr xristos freiksenet easye @fe[nl]ix galdor leoc staykov otwieracz BrianRice dRbiG yano rvirding tkd Xach sgray10 codeburg __class__ jdoles luis asedeno zbigniew derrida cdidd cmbntr housel Munksgaard epsilon__ j_king jasom ck_ axion ramus mksan hypno__ tbarletz dim Krystof srcerer JPeterson yrk sellout aLmostHumAn eigenlicht Natch kyl_ aftersha_
2014-04-08T13:37:59Z names: redline6561` jaimef cmatei fikusz lemoinem BlankVerse nop0x07bc p_l [SLB] bobbysmith007 hzp peterhil` newcup White__Flame sfa_ Subfusc sytse mighta` Yamazaki-kun Ethan- joast ahungry mtd yrdz Tordek slyrus ivan\ kanru attila_lendvai mcsontos mrSpec KCL jayne shridhar leo2007 loke_ loicbsd Blkt hlavaty bhyde varjag PuercoPop bocaneri victor_lowther ThePhoeron antoszka Zag afleck MinnowTaur eagleflo Nshag ircbrowse palter dlowe theos ggole Praise chirpsalot
2014-04-08T13:37:59Z names: BlastHardcheese Mandus ZombieChicken TristamWrk yroeht2 SHODAN alchemis7 organmeat vaporatorius zacharias copec brandonz milosn fmu therik zxq9 scharan abbe angavrilov e2xistz jtz whartung Jubb joneshf-work MightyJoe pjb justinmcp jewel_ ineiros edgar-rft saarin clop oGMo ``Erik cyphase pok Guest69016
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2014-04-08T13:43:46Z Fade: true
2014-04-08T13:46:11Z dlowe: I've wondered about that vast silent majority. I can't think of a reason a bot would join any more than a permanent lurker
2014-04-08T13:46:26Z Xach: neural net training
2014-04-08T13:47:08Z dlowe: trying to raise their bot's intelligence by hanging out on #lisp? Sounds legit.
2014-04-08T13:48:29Z nicdev` is now known as nicdev
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2014-04-08T13:54:12Z Xach: I can think of nothing legiter
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2014-04-08T13:56:17Z Shinmera: dlowe: My bot's just here so I can have the chatlogs in a database to query when I want to catch up or look something up
2014-04-08T13:57:06Z dlowe: even if every person here who talks has their own bot, it doesn't begin to add up to 388
2014-04-08T13:57:31Z Shinmera: Lots of people just like to lurk. Or add a channel to autojoin and never look at it.
2014-04-08T13:57:35Z splittist: the bots have their bots, who have their bots, and so on until we reach the singularity
2014-04-08T13:59:43Z tensorpudding quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2014-04-08T13:59:52Z Shinmera: Genetically programmed irc bots
2014-04-08T14:00:10Z Shinmera: They never do anything but become increasingly efficient at it
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2014-04-08T14:05:21Z Xach: Big bots have little bots upon the channel to log 'em, and little bots have lesser bots, and so, ad nauseagum
2014-04-08T14:05:56Z oofya: (let ((place "foo")) (check-type place (member "foo" "bar"))) =| SIMPLE-TYPE-ERROR: The value of PLACE is "foo", which is not of type (MEMBER "foo" "bar").  Is there a way around this?
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2014-04-08T14:07:29Z dlowe: no. member uses EQL in type declarations
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2014-04-08T14:08:54Z dlowe: Just do it without a type. (assert (member place '("foo" "bar") :test #'equal) nil "Oh noes!")
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2014-04-08T14:09:30Z oofya: dlowe: Wonderful! Thanks.
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2014-04-08T14:54:04Z pjb: Well apart from bots trying to become more intelligent, I'd expect at least 196 lurkers in all channels.
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2014-04-08T14:54:24Z pjb: (one secret service per country, more for countries like the USA).
2014-04-08T14:54:26Z z0d: and 2 NSA logbots
2014-04-08T14:54:31Z z0d: heh
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2014-04-08T15:06:12Z fe[nl]ix: p_l: what happened to your bot ?
2014-04-08T15:06:29Z Holly28 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2014-04-08T15:06:34Z xificurC quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2014-04-08T15:06:36Z p_l: fe[nl]ix: I managed to fix the issue with a bunch of +q mode changes
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2014-04-08T15:07:03Z p_l: took less time than writing the bot
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2014-04-08T15:08:05Z fe[nl]ix: p_l: well, Holly28 did manage to spam
2014-04-08T15:08:16Z fe[nl]ix: or maybe we're talking about different things
2014-04-08T15:09:03Z p_l: fe[nl]ix: as long as you have @ you'll see the spam
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2014-04-08T15:09:14Z p_l: non-OPs don't see it
2014-04-08T15:09:51Z Xach: What's a nice way to see if every element of a vector is eq?
2014-04-08T15:09:54Z p_l: that's actually why I was keeping the OP bit for so long - I was monitoring if I silenced someone by mistake
2014-04-08T15:10:15Z p_l: Xach: EQ to each other?
2014-04-08T15:10:29Z Xach: Yes.
2014-04-08T15:10:32Z p_l: hmmm
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2014-04-08T15:12:13Z fe[nl]ix: p_l: aah, that's clever
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2014-04-08T15:15:27Z p_l: Xach: quick'n'dirty and probably incorrect: (loop :with bar = (aref vector 0) :with eq? = T :unless (not eq?) :for foo :across vector :do (unless (eq foo bar) (setf eq? nil)) :finally (return eq?))
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2014-04-08T15:16:37Z p_l: fe[nl]ix: iirc it's +z in channel mode that enables that behaviour - it's there for relaxed moderation discussion, making OPs see everyone talking even if they are otherwise silenced for others
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2014-04-08T15:17:11Z fe[nl]ix: p_l: that's good to know
2014-04-08T15:17:16Z fe[nl]ix: thanks
2014-04-08T15:17:35Z p_l: np
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2014-04-08T15:18:38Z p_l: fe[nl]ix: if you find someone who has issues talking while being legitimate, add them to +e mode list
2014-04-08T15:19:04Z |3b|: (every (lambda (a) (eq a (aref vector 0))) vector)?
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2014-04-08T15:20:12Z p_l: heh
2014-04-08T15:20:30Z dlowe: (reduce #'eq vector)?
2014-04-08T15:20:51Z dlowe: wait, no.
2014-04-08T15:20:52Z |3b|: that was my first thought, but only works of the elements are all T, doesn't it?
2014-04-08T15:21:04Z dlowe: yes, indeed.
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2014-04-08T15:21:16Z Shinmera: (loop with f = (aref vector 0) for i across vector always (eq f i))
2014-04-08T15:21:46Z p_l: |3b|: I'd probably do (let ((foo (aref vector 0))) (every (lambda (bar) (eq foo bar)) vector)
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2014-04-08T15:22:18Z p_l: Shinmera: heh. LOOP, CL's little TIMTOWTDI :)
2014-04-08T15:22:48Z dlowe: I was thinking (every (let ((f (aref vector 0))) (lambda (b) (eq f b))) vector)
2014-04-08T15:22:56Z dlowe: whatever
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2014-04-08T15:23:23Z |3b|: or displace 2 overlapping arrays to first and last half of the array, and (every 'eq first-half second-half)
2014-04-08T15:23:34Z |3b|: actually, that doesn't work either
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2014-04-08T15:24:08Z Xach: is that a route to the (every 'eq list (rest list)) trick though?
2014-04-08T15:24:10Z |3b|: good thing i'm not actually coding right now, it would probably require quite a bit of repair after i was actually awake again :p
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2014-04-08T15:24:32Z Xach: maybe a verbose route?
2014-04-08T15:24:51Z |3b|: yeah, displacing from element 1 would be more correct
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2014-04-08T15:34:27Z splittist: (not (position-if-not (lambda (item) (eq (aref vector 0) item)) vector)) ?
2014-04-08T15:34:45Z splittist: add :start 1 to save a compare?
2014-04-08T15:35:27Z Xach: (not (position (aref vector 0) vector :start 1 :test-not 'eq))?
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2014-04-08T15:36:36Z splittist: :test-not - often deprecated, never beaten (or something)
2014-04-08T15:38:20Z splittist: find, to save 4 chars?
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2014-04-08T15:39:17Z Xach: that's good
2014-04-08T15:39:17Z splittist is confused
2014-04-08T15:39:47Z dlowe: find is bad if the first element is nil
2014-04-08T15:40:05Z Xach: oh, aye, aye
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2014-04-08T16:24:26Z jasom:  how old is quicklisp now?
2014-04-08T16:24:39Z z0d: can't vote or drink legally
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2014-04-08T16:24:58Z jasom: z0d: I don't think it's even old enough for public school
2014-04-08T16:26:16Z jasom: Oldest copyright date I can find is 2010; the date on the quicklisp beta page is 2011-06-19
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2014-04-08T16:27:37Z jasom: But I like how "Dark Lisp" was recently used on the ASDF mailing list to refer to lisp systems not in quicklisp; it seems to have gained traction fairly quickly.
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2014-04-08T16:29:36Z p_l: lol
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2014-04-08T16:34:29Z Xach: jasom: it started in october 2010 (just before ILC in reno)
2014-04-08T16:35:21Z splittist: "It was our first case together, and we were just finishing the last bottle..."
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2014-04-08T16:36:51Z samebchase: Xach: approximate birthday?
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2014-04-08T16:38:01Z Xach: samebchase: http://xach.livejournal.com/272122.html, october 9th
2014-04-08T16:38:16Z samebchase: ah
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2014-04-08T16:46:28Z jasom: There is a library that has a macro that really doesn't need to be a macro IMO, and I want to invoke it with an argument that's not available at compile time; is there a sane way to do that, or should I just copy it and change "defmacro" to "defun"
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2014-04-08T16:48:18Z Bike: you could eval, but making it a function is probably the best mvoe
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2014-04-08T16:49:45Z fe[nl]ix: jasom: don't be afraid of copying code
2014-04-08T16:50:10Z jasom: fe[nl]ix: It's just slightly annoying b/c now I need to manually track any upstream changes if there are bug-fixes
2014-04-08T16:51:03Z jasom: I'll probably copy it and start making lots of changes anyway though, since I get the feeling my idea of how it should work differs significantly from the author's
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2014-04-08T16:51:18Z fe[nl]ix: then modify the upstream library to include the function
2014-04-08T16:51:34Z fe[nl]ix: even better if there's some code sharing
2014-04-08T16:51:40Z nyef hands jasom a piece of tableware with tines.
2014-04-08T16:52:11Z nyef: (or with prongs, depending on dialect.)
2014-04-08T16:52:30Z jasom: You want me to spork the project?
2014-04-08T16:52:52Z nyef: .Heh.
2014-04-08T16:53:06Z fe[nl]ix: use the chopsticks, jasom
2014-04-08T16:56:58Z jasom: Now that I'm looking at it, I have half a kloc of customizations built on top of it anyway and the original utility was only 300 loc
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2014-04-08T17:00:51Z nyef: Too small not to fork, huh?
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2014-04-08T17:04:53Z jasom: yeah
2014-04-08T17:08:36Z jasom: The old project is called "css-lite" so my fork should clearly be called "css-heavy"
2014-04-08T17:09:38Z Xach: or cetheth-lite
2014-04-08T17:09:46Z Xach: my favoritest kind of lisp joke!
2014-04-08T17:10:17Z jasom: Xach: I ususally see that when converting a non-lisp project to lisp
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2014-04-08T17:29:18Z fcsa: Hello, #lisp. I would like to present a free as in freedom Skype replacement: Tox. Tox is a P2P, totally distributed, trustless network. The core is written in ANSI C and there are many clients/frontends for it.
2014-04-08T17:29:31Z fcsa: I would like to invite you to make a SBCL, Scheme or Guile wrapper and Client for it, as there is no good Multi-platform (Windows, Linux, OS X, BSD, etc.) for it.
2014-04-08T17:29:51Z fcsa: Website: http://tox.im/ Github: https://github.com/irungentoo/ProjectTox-Core Development Introduction: http://api.libtoxcore.so/
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2014-04-08T17:33:37Z dlowe: uh, why don't you do it?
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2014-04-08T18:49:16Z splittist: How quaint - something to do with security built in C
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2014-04-08T18:50:36Z ggole: All too contemporary :/
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2014-04-08T19:00:21Z bhyde: can somebody confirm the cl-xmpp is usable, since my first attempt isn't work'n :(
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2014-04-08T19:04:46Z Xach: I used it with success once, a few years ago
2014-04-08T19:04:54Z bhyde: me too :)
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2014-04-08T19:05:43Z bhyde: can't get it to connect to my dreamhost jabber server, or to gtalk's ... coughs up blood of different colors though
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2014-04-08T19:31:48Z drewc: bhyde: I tried to in January ... decided to use bitlbee and cl-irc instead.
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2014-04-08T19:40:41Z Sir_herrbatka: hi all
2014-04-08T19:40:47Z fiveop quit
2014-04-08T19:40:57Z Sir_herrbatka: i'm trying to learn lisp (second day so far)
2014-04-08T19:41:16Z Sir_herrbatka: i have a code that will not quite work
2014-04-08T19:41:31Z H4ns: Sir_herrbatka: paste it to paste.lisp.org
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2014-04-08T19:42:37Z Sir_herrbatka: http://paste.lisp.org/display/141957
2014-04-08T19:42:49Z Sir_herrbatka: H4ns: you have your own pastebin? nice
2014-04-08T19:42:57Z Sir_herrbatka: anyway
2014-04-08T19:43:05Z dlowe: Sir_herrbatka: please, please, please don't do matrix math with lists
2014-04-08T19:43:22Z Sir_herrbatka: dlowe: ok. i won't do this in real life
2014-04-08T19:43:36Z Sir_herrbatka: it is for learning loops
2014-04-08T19:43:57Z Sir_herrbatka: as i said, i'm learning second day
2014-04-08T19:44:00Z dlowe: you want to push 0, not (list 0)
2014-04-08T19:44:22Z dlowe: you have (push 0 t) on the line after
2014-04-08T19:44:35Z dlowe: no, that's still not going to work
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2014-04-08T19:45:30Z Sir_herrbatka: hmm, i wanted to fill one row, than add remaining rows
2014-04-08T19:45:31Z Sir_herrbatka: but it won't do it
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2014-04-08T19:46:08Z Sir_herrbatka: it will just fill one row
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2014-04-08T19:48:03Z Sir_herrbatka: so what i'm missing?
2014-04-08T19:48:27Z dlowe: a list in common lisp isn't an object that you can manipulate like that
2014-04-08T19:48:41Z dlowe: it's a bunch of cons cells pointing at each other, forming a linked list
2014-04-08T19:48:54Z Sir_herrbatka: sure
2014-04-08T19:49:13Z Sir_herrbatka: but i still don't see why i can't do this
2014-04-08T19:49:13Z dlowe: in particular, dolist only gives you the CAR side of the cons cells it iterates over
2014-04-08T19:49:47Z Sir_herrbatka: ok
2014-04-08T19:49:48Z Sir_herrbatka: i see
2014-04-08T19:49:56Z Sir_herrbatka: thanks
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2014-04-08T19:50:18Z dlowe: let's step through it, then.  You read a value, say 5.  You loop from 1 to 5 pushing a (list 0) on to the *matrix* list (which isn't initialized - you'll have trouble if you run it twice)
2014-04-08T19:50:36Z Sir_herrbatka: let me check
2014-04-08T19:50:50Z dlowe: *matrix* looks like ((0) (0) (0) (0) (0))
2014-04-08T19:51:03Z Sir_herrbatka: yes
2014-04-08T19:51:10Z dlowe: then you dolist (it *matrix*)
2014-04-08T19:51:19Z dlowe: on each run, it is bound to (0)
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2014-04-08T19:51:53Z Sir_herrbatka: and i want to push 0 to that list
2014-04-08T19:52:00Z dlowe: but it's not a list!
2014-04-08T19:52:17Z dlowe: it's a pointer to a particular cons - the one containing (0 . nil)
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2014-04-08T19:52:24Z Sir_herrbatka: yes
2014-04-08T19:52:26Z H4ns: Sir_herrbatka: you push the number to it, not to the member of *matrix*
2014-04-08T19:52:30Z Sir_herrbatka: that's waht you said
2014-04-08T19:52:33Z Sir_herrbatka: only car
2014-04-08T19:52:54Z dlowe: the list in *matrix* has the pointer you want to change
2014-04-08T19:53:15Z Sir_herrbatka: hmmmm
2014-04-08T19:53:36Z dlowe: you can do it this way if you want with nested loops
2014-04-08T19:53:40Z Sir_herrbatka: so i should try to access my nested list with nth?
2014-04-08T19:53:58Z dlowe: you have the inner loop return a list of 0s, then you make a list of that
2014-04-08T19:54:17Z H4ns: Sir_herrbatka: your suggestion would work, yes.
2014-04-08T19:55:04Z Sir_herrbatka: dlowe: can you hang on for the moment, i really want to try nth first ;-)
2014-04-08T19:55:04Z dlowe: (loop repeat x collect (loop repeat x collect 0))
2014-04-08T19:55:14Z dlowe: sure thing.
2014-04-08T19:55:34Z dlowe: Seems like it will only work due to setf expanders, though :p
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2014-04-08T19:56:02Z dlowe: H4ns: am I wrong? What were you thinking of?
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2014-04-08T19:56:29Z H4ns: dlowe: yeah, it will work because of setf expanders, but that'd be okay, no?
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2014-04-08T19:56:58Z dlowe: I guess. I wasn't going to push new concepts on a two-day student
2014-04-08T19:56:59Z H4ns: (loop repeat x do (push 0 (nth *matrix* x)))
2014-04-08T19:57:15Z H4ns: it was his idea after all :)
2014-04-08T19:57:35Z H4ns: i probably got the order of arguments wrong there.
2014-04-08T19:57:41Z dlowe: looks okay to me
2014-04-08T19:57:56Z Sir_herrbatka: ok, nth works
2014-04-08T19:57:57Z H4ns: erm, but the loop should be terminated.
2014-04-08T19:58:07Z dlowe: it's terminated by repeat x
2014-04-08T19:58:08Z Sir_herrbatka: i guess that lisp is not quite obvious
2014-04-08T19:58:13Z H4ns: hm.
2014-04-08T19:58:24Z H4ns: Sir_herrbatka: it is totally obvious once you know it.
2014-04-08T19:59:03Z dlowe: Sir_herrbatka: compare making a 2d array for a matrix: (make-array (list x x) :initial-value 0)
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2014-04-08T20:01:19Z j_king: or a row-major ordered array. or column-major order... some matrix-heavy langs like R use that
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2014-04-08T20:01:38Z j_king: unless that's what make-array does... >.<
2014-04-08T20:02:24Z Sir_herrbatka: haha
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2014-04-08T20:02:45Z Sir_herrbatka: H4ns: so, is there anybody here who knows it? :D
2014-04-08T20:03:01Z pjb:  Yes.
2014-04-08T20:03:14Z Sir_herrbatka: respect ;-)
2014-04-08T20:03:47Z pjb: The standard is only 1150 pages.  It's small compared to contemporaneous software (languages, frameworks, etc).
2014-04-08T20:03:48Z H4ns: Sir_herrbatka: of course.  there are several levels of knowledge.  i find it obvious, but i'm not one of those who can give you a reference to the spec for everything related to cl.
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2014-04-08T20:04:12Z H4ns: Sir_herrbatka: pjb is telling you that it is no problem memorizing the whole document.  for him, that is.
2014-04-08T20:04:19Z pjb: The Android frameworks contains more than 350,000 methods!
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2014-04-08T20:04:43Z H4ns: pjb: the android framework does drastically more things than common lisp.
2014-04-08T20:04:44Z Sir_herrbatka: well it is impressivly simple when compared with c languages
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2014-04-08T20:04:59Z H4ns: Sir_herrbatka: that i find debatable.
2014-04-08T20:05:15Z Sir_herrbatka: syntax is extreamly simple
2014-04-08T20:05:15Z pjb: more than 3556 classes.
2014-04-08T20:05:21Z H4ns: Sir_herrbatka: you've not looked into loop much, or into format, or into pathnames, or into clos.  enjoy your journey.
2014-04-08T20:05:36Z Sir_herrbatka: yeah, i guess
2014-04-08T20:05:50Z pjb: H4ns: yes, but the point is that when a programmer nowadays, you must be able to master things for which the documentation takes more than 5000 pages.
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2014-04-08T20:05:51Z Sir_herrbatka: i just want to learn something new
2014-04-08T20:05:55Z dlowe: or the metaobject protocol
2014-04-08T20:06:00Z H4ns: Sir_herrbatka: syntax is only skin deep, and cl's is only simple if you ignore all the fine points and flexibility built in to cater for ancient lisp compatibility
2014-04-08T20:06:08Z pjb: And several of them, at that, so 1150 pages is small compared to the average thing you have to know.
2014-04-08T20:06:09Z Sir_herrbatka: not those c-languages
2014-04-08T20:06:29Z H4ns: pjb: what a programmer needs nowadays is stackoverflow, not manuals
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2014-04-08T20:07:17Z pjb: Last stackoverflow question I answered:  How do you guys to when working on new stuff for which there's no stackoverflow answer?
2014-04-08T20:07:23Z pjb: Response: use your brains!
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2014-04-08T20:07:49Z j_king: heh
2014-04-08T20:09:01Z Sir_herrbatka: dlowe: language vs framework? ;-)
2014-04-08T20:09:40Z pjb: The thing is that languages always include a minimal framework.
2014-04-08T20:09:44Z Sir_herrbatka: large frameworks are large
2014-04-08T20:09:57Z j_king: the worst programming I do is when I assume things work without thinking it through. :p
2014-04-08T20:09:58Z pjb: If you consider only the language part of CL, well, it could be as small as just LAMBAD.
2014-04-08T20:10:03Z pjb: LAMBDA.
2014-04-08T20:10:25Z Sir_herrbatka: yes, i readed about it
2014-04-08T20:10:40Z Sir_herrbatka: lisp is mostly written in lisp -_-'
2014-04-08T20:10:52Z j_king: that's awesome. :)
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2014-04-08T20:11:16Z Sir_herrbatka: well, i came from C++
2014-04-08T20:11:23Z j_king: I'm sorry. :S
2014-04-08T20:11:29Z mood: That depends on the implementation actually. The point is that lisp is implementable mostly in lisp
2014-04-08T20:11:33Z pjb: So you may consider 1/10 or 1/6 of a "core" CL subset, and be perfectly able to write nice CL programs with it.  Perhaps sometimes you will rewrite code that is already implemented in the language, but you will also write code that is already implemented in some library.
2014-04-08T20:11:36Z Sir_herrbatka: C++ metaprograming is horrible
2014-04-08T20:11:42Z j_king: I C++. It's not that bad.
2014-04-08T20:11:43Z Sir_herrbatka: it boils brains
2014-04-08T20:11:49Z j_king: but CL is much better.
2014-04-08T20:12:32Z Sir_herrbatka: and to do anything fancy you need boost
2014-04-08T20:12:45Z Sir_herrbatka: and there is VS
2014-04-08T20:12:59Z Sir_herrbatka: with it's "standard" of C++
2014-04-08T20:13:27Z Sir_herrbatka: ok, enough of complainint
2014-04-08T20:13:36Z Sir_herrbatka: thanks for help everyone!
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2014-04-08T20:14:16Z j_king: I like being able to jump to the definition of some CL function I've never seen and looking at the source... and understanding it. :)
2014-04-08T20:14:33Z j_king: Looking into the standard C++ lib... is fun.
2014-04-08T20:15:15Z Sir_herrbatka: you need good templates-foo for that
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2014-04-08T20:16:01Z dlowe: let us speak no more of c++
2014-04-08T20:16:07Z j_king: dlowe: yes!
2014-04-08T20:16:36Z oleo: bwahahahahahaha
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2014-04-08T20:22:16Z drewc is glad to stay here rather than move to #c++ to talk about Common Lisp! 
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2014-04-08T20:23:14Z oleo: i'm glad i'm not the one who's confuzzling the C side with the CL side and start coding in ECL....lol
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2014-04-08T20:23:58Z oleo: http://paste.lisp.org/display/141956
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2014-04-08T20:25:08Z therik: ,ecl
2014-04-08T20:25:34Z drewc: minion: Vacietis?
2014-04-08T20:25:35Z minion: Vacietis: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/Vacietis
2014-04-08T20:25:43Z drewc: minion: ecl?
2014-04-08T20:25:44Z minion: ecl: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/ecl
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2014-04-08T20:25:59Z pjb: That doesn't mean that the cliki page is not useful.
2014-04-08T20:26:04Z pjb: Go see the links there.
2014-04-08T20:26:42Z therik: thanks pjb, I already probed fsbot in #emacs
2014-04-08T20:26:51Z drewc: it simply means that minion has never been updated to parse the new cliki .... but the links work!!
2014-04-08T20:27:20Z drewc: at least emacs-lisp is somewhat "Common" :)
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2014-04-08T20:31:44Z drewc goes over to #fonc to discuss our mixing C and Lisp and creating a sexp C type thing ... to implement lisp itself in ... Maru.
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2014-04-08T20:45:02Z jasom: Any ubuntu users here?
2014-04-08T20:45:50Z jasom: If so, is the sbcl in the ubuntu package repository saneish (not too old, doesn't use the common-lisp-controller or asdf-binary-locations, or other cruft like that)?
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2014-04-08T20:50:02Z dkcl: Has there been any use of McCLIM in the last ~5 years?
2014-04-08T20:50:19Z jasom: dkcl: I tried twice and gave up
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2014-04-08T20:51:02Z therik: jasom: what ubuntu?
2014-04-08T20:51:46Z dkcl: jasom: Heh, I have the urge to use it myself
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2014-04-08T20:52:09Z jasom: therik: I don't know; I'm not sure how versioning works in ubuntu, is there a separate apt repository for each release?
2014-04-08T20:52:31Z therik: it has names that start with same letters
2014-04-08T20:53:10Z therik: precise pangolin is 12.04, quantal qu-something is 12.10, r-something 13.04
2014-04-08T20:53:25Z therik: .04 is stable, .10 is less stable but still fairly stable
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2014-04-08T20:54:07Z nyef: quantal quetzal, wasn't it?
2014-04-08T20:54:10Z jasom: Well Precise is an LTS, so let's start there
2014-04-08T20:54:48Z therik: 13.10 is newest and it has this package: http://packages.ubuntu.com/saucy/sbcl
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2014-04-08T20:55:30Z jasom: hmm, I guess I'll start with a VM install and see how things work
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2014-04-08T20:56:13Z therik: precise has sbcl 1.0.55.0-1 if I understand that page correctly
2014-04-08T20:56:20Z jasom: though it's promising that it doesn't even suggest the common-lisp-controller
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2014-04-08T20:57:26Z dkcl: I asked someone who uses Ubuntu 12.04, and "sbcl" seems not to install any other packages there
2014-04-08T20:57:42Z jasom: dkcl: thanks
2014-04-08T20:58:48Z slyrus: jasom: I use ubuntu on a few boxes and occasionally use the stock SBCL to build new ones
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2014-04-08T21:02:46Z drewc uses debian and mint, and never ever ever installs lisp from the .deb's ... ever
2014-04-08T21:04:27Z drewc has been using debian full time since '96, but never liked ubuntu, and perhaps the .deb's are different for that ..... so grain of salt should be taken.
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2014-04-08T21:39:30Z genkinodenki: when I run; (funcall (let ((x 0)) (lambda () (incf x)))) ... in the REPL, how does it know value of x when I call it again and it increments it?
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2014-04-08T21:40:00Z genkinodenki: I mean when I run it again
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2014-04-08T21:43:52Z drewc: genkinodenki: what you are saying makes no sense... so it does not. OR: > (loop :repeat 5 :collect (funcall (let ((x 0)) (lambda () (incf x))))) => (1 1 1 1 1)
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2014-04-08T21:44:50Z drewc: unless you have declared X as SPECIAL somehow, then it knows the value of all special variables because that is what dynamic scope is
2014-04-08T21:44:55Z genkinodenki: => (4 5 6 7 8)
2014-04-08T21:45:32Z drewc: try a different package or a different symbol to name the variable
2014-04-08T21:45:32Z genkinodenki: it seems to be special
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2014-04-08T21:45:57Z drewc: so, it knows the value because you made it
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2014-04-08T21:50:47Z drewc: in SBCL : (list (unintern '*foo*) (boundp '*foo*) (setf *foo* 0) (incf *foo*) *foo* (boundp '*foo*)) <--- whoops, SETF declared it special!
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2014-04-08T21:51:40Z drewc is eating lunch, so playing with such things ... apologies for all.
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2014-04-08T21:55:10Z drewc: and CL is much nicer than what he is doing for work! : (ps:ps ($ (ps:lisp (<> (a) (<> (:text "yay!"))))))
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2014-04-08T22:16:40Z genkinodenki: I had indeed accidentally created a special x.  however, I have a new question.  I now have a function: http://pastebin.com/64TaPm04 ...and the question remains, when I funcall this, why does it increment counter?
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2014-04-08T22:17:41Z H4ns: genkinodenki: you're creating a closure.  any decent lisp text will explain this to you.
2014-04-08T22:17:59Z genkinodenki: I am reading but I'm not understanding
2014-04-08T22:18:18Z H4ns: maybe you're reading the wrong text.
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2014-04-08T22:18:58Z genkinodenki: so far they've all been wrong in that regard... I was hoping somebody could explain in very concrete terms what's going on
2014-04-08T22:20:15Z H4ns: in your example, you're creating a new lexical variable counter.  this variable can only be seen by the anonymous function that you create with the lambda.
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2014-04-08T22:21:10Z H4ns: so, when you invoke the counter-class function, what you receive as a return value is an anonymous function that has a binding for counter variable, which is otherwise unvisible in your program.
2014-04-08T22:21:51Z H4ns: but in all other respects, the counter variable is just a normal variable, so if you invoke the anonymous function with funcall, the variable will be incremented and its new value will be returned.
2014-04-08T22:22:04Z H4ns: it is really very simple once you've understood it :D
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2014-04-08T22:23:18Z genkinodenki: I don't understand what the compiler does... how can the lambda always know the same x from earlier invocations of counter-class?
2014-04-08T22:24:28Z H4ns: the bindings are part of the anonymous function that is returned.
2014-04-08T22:25:03Z H4ns: in the end, the compiler will allocate the variable on the heap, then create a function with "counter" pointing to that heap variable, then return the function.
2014-04-08T22:25:19Z H4ns: as the heap is garbage collected, the variable will exist as long as the function exists.
2014-04-08T22:26:00Z H4ns: of course this is just very simplified, but the general idea is just that.
2014-04-08T22:26:33Z genkinodenki: aha... I think I understand.  thank you very much
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2014-04-08T22:27:01Z H4ns: glad i could do better than the texts that you've read.
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2014-04-09T00:40:56Z replcated`: Any suggestions on a parser library?  I need to parse something that looks fairly like C.
2014-04-09T00:41:26Z nyef: I find that a hand-crafted recursive-descent parser is usually a good option.
2014-04-09T00:41:46Z replcated`: That was my first thought.
2014-04-09T00:42:01Z p_l: I used esrap a very, very little
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2014-04-09T00:42:51Z sveit: perhaps this is the wrong channel, but I was wondering if anyone has recommendations for a scheme for numerical work?
2014-04-09T00:43:00Z sveit: I know SBCL seems to be the de-facto standard for CL
2014-04-09T00:43:19Z Bike: it is the wrong channel. #scheme would know more about schemes.
2014-04-09T00:43:21Z Xach: This is the wrong channel. Try the question in #scheme instead, perhaps.
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2014-04-09T00:44:52Z sveit: yeah, but they don't seem to be as concerned with practical questions as the people here :)
2014-04-09T00:45:02Z sveit: i.e. in this case performance
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2014-04-09T00:47:05Z Xach: Sorry to hear that. This channel remains a bad place to ask.
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2014-04-09T00:48:23Z zenyfish: which one would you recommend reading first "practical common lisp" or "land of lisp" ?
2014-04-09T00:48:44Z p_l: zenyfish: depends on how experienced you're with programming in general, I guess
2014-04-09T00:48:54Z Xach: I like Practical Common Lisp very much. But if you like a bit of silliness, Land of Lisp has plenty.
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2014-04-09T00:49:14Z Xach: Land of Lisp came out way after I knew Lisp so I wasn't as interested in an introduction, silly or not.
2014-04-09T00:49:19Z p_l: at least I'd suggest PCL to someone who already programs in another language. Land of Lisp otoh is something starting from simpler concepts, IMO
2014-04-09T00:51:37Z zenyfish: p_l Xach thank you , i chose PCL
2014-04-09T00:52:12Z zenyfish: it seems more practical :)
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2014-04-09T00:52:30Z drewc: I have both on my shelf, along with PAIP... I recommend PCL as well, but it all depends on what you know/do
2014-04-09T00:52:51Z Fade: PAIP is a necessary followup to PCL, imo
2014-04-09T00:53:49Z p_l: with possibly portions of Gentle Introduction in between
2014-04-09T00:54:34Z drewc: (There is also AMOP, which I cannot recommend, but cannot recommend doing without either ... because it is needed ;))
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2014-04-09T00:54:42Z zenyfish: i have a computer engineering background but without even knowing lisp existed
2014-04-09T00:55:11Z Xach: PAIP is a very nice book as well. If you read it carefully and do the exercises you will learn a great deal.
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2014-04-09T00:55:32Z Fade: it's my favourite programming book, in any language.
2014-04-09T00:55:45Z Fade: I also agree that AMOP is necessary.
2014-04-09T00:55:56Z zenyfish googles PAIP 
2014-04-09T00:56:15Z Fade: it is also very enlightening, particularly if you have only use C++ or Python or Ruby.
2014-04-09T00:56:21Z drewc: "If you read it carefully and do the exercises" ... sigh ... the same is true for TAOCP .... and there goes my spare time this week :D
2014-04-09T00:56:51Z Fade: (hey, drewc)
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2014-04-09T00:57:24Z drewc: (greetings Fade! long time no chat)
2014-04-09T00:58:25Z Fade: indeed. It's nice to see you! :)
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2014-04-09T01:00:13Z drewc: you as well :)
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2014-04-09T01:03:23Z zenyfish: is it possible to say PCL text is more modern than PAIP?
2014-04-09T01:03:36Z genkinodenki: as a beginner I found land of lisp confusing
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2014-04-09T01:03:38Z jasom: Any suggestions for figuring out why code is reported unreachable by sbcl?
2014-04-09T01:03:40Z Xach: zenyfish: in some ways, but it is not a drastic difference.
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2014-04-09T01:05:58Z jasom: I may have found an sbcl bug, but I'm not sure (the code reported as unreachable gets run on ccl)
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2014-04-09T01:06:44Z nyef: jasom: It's quite possible that the code is dead on SBCL and run on CCL, due purely to different implementation choices.
2014-04-09T01:07:01Z jasom: nyef: it's a fairly straightforward typecase
2014-04-09T01:07:18Z nyef: For that matter, it's fairly easy to write code that will run on one build of SBCL but not on another, purely due to a build-time option.
2014-04-09T01:07:42Z Fade: zenyfish: I don't think so. PAIP is a pretty prfound text, and lisp is a pretty old language.
2014-04-09T01:07:50Z pillton: drewc: Why did you not like AMOP? I liked it. I learnt a great deal.
2014-04-09T01:07:51Z Fade: s/prfound/profound/g
2014-04-09T01:08:03Z nyef: Typecase? One of the early clauses probably shadows a later clause.
2014-04-09T01:08:47Z zenyfish: Fade ok i want an easier learning curve which one should i choose?
2014-04-09T01:08:56Z Fade: PCL
2014-04-09T01:09:07Z Fade: when you read PCL, come back to PAIP
2014-04-09T01:10:40Z nyef: PAIP is... not fully compatible with modern CL, however. Possibly not with strictly interpreted historic CL either, though I haven't actually gone through and looked at some aspects of the original spec.
2014-04-09T01:10:58Z zenyfish: thank you very much Fade Xach p_l
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2014-04-09T01:12:24Z p_l: nyef: iirc everything in PAIP works in ANSI, it's just not touching on some parts that solidified later
2014-04-09T01:12:41Z jasom: nyef: hmm I added an otherwise-clause and it's hitting that
2014-04-09T01:13:00Z nyef: jasom: Time to lisppaste the offending code?
2014-04-09T01:13:56Z jasom: http://paste.lisp.org/+31JC
2014-04-09T01:14:11Z zenyfish: nyef: thank you too
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2014-04-09T01:14:24Z jasom: nyef: (iolib/sockets::address-to-vector #(9735 63664 16391 2050 0 0 0 4110)) hits the otherwise clause
2014-04-09T01:15:01Z Fade: I didn't find an example that failed, but my followthrough was only about 70%.
2014-04-09T01:15:14Z jasom: but (typep #(9735 63664 16391 2050 0 0 0 4110) '(vector * 8)) returns T
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2014-04-09T01:18:36Z jasom: I'm on sbcl 1.1.14
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2014-04-09T01:19:34Z drewc: pillton: I quite liked it, and have even had drinks with the author, who is a prof locally.
2014-04-09T01:20:40Z jasom: interestingly enough, commenting out the (vector * 4) case causes it to work
2014-04-09T01:20:55Z pillton: drewc: Cool! Damn being stuck in Australia.
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2014-04-09T01:21:35Z drewc: pillton: well, fwiw I consider that 'local'
2014-04-09T01:21:56Z drewc: but I live on the Pacific Ocean, so 2/3 of the earth is 'local'
2014-04-09T01:21:58Z jasom: nyef: I've reduced the test-case a lot now to something that should work without any of the package-local symbols
2014-04-09T01:21:59Z nyef: jasom: What does (typep #(9735 63664 16391 2050 0 0 0 4110) '(vector * 4)) return?
2014-04-09T01:22:37Z jasom: nyef: http://paste.lisp.org/+31JC/1
2014-04-09T01:22:42Z nyef: Hrm. NIL here...
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2014-04-09T01:22:45Z pillton: drewc: heh.
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2014-04-09T01:22:59Z jasom: nyef: NIL, and it doesn't hit the (vector * 4) case, it hits the T case
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2014-04-09T01:23:12Z jasom: nyef: I pasted a SLIME session of a really simple test-case that seems plain wrong to me
2014-04-09T01:23:18Z nyef: Yeah, I see.
2014-04-09T01:23:19Z nyef: Hrm.
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2014-04-09T01:25:02Z jasom: anyway I'm 20 minutes late for dinner; I'll check my irc logs later tonight in case you figure out something.
2014-04-09T01:25:28Z nyef: Yeah, it looks like a bug to me.
2014-04-09T01:25:36Z nyef: Enjoy your dinner.
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2014-04-09T01:30:19Z zRecursive: wow, it is miserable bug !
2014-04-09T01:32:00Z nyef: Mmm. The second vector clause just vanishes.
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2014-04-09T02:08:25Z zenyfish: lisp coding conventions , which one to choose google or cliki? or are they the same?or another one?
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2014-04-09T02:09:47Z zenyfish: or will slime handle everything?
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2014-04-09T02:14:06Z nyef: jasom: FWIW, bug confirmed as a regression at some point. I'm about to start a git bisect, but I don't expect to find the commit to blame tonight.
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2014-04-09T02:50:13Z nydel: g'day
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2014-04-09T02:52:58Z nydel: anyone read anything interesting lisp-replated lately
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2014-04-09T02:53:58Z zRecursive: Just know the BUG in sbcl jasom mentioned :)
2014-04-09T02:54:49Z zenyfish: "ql:quickload can also be used to load local systems that aren't part of Quicklisp." --> yes but how?
2014-04-09T02:55:35Z nydel: zenyfish: set it up like you would for asdf
2014-04-09T02:55:49Z zRecursive: zenyfish: put your local projects into ~/quicklisp/local-projects/
2014-04-09T02:56:46Z nydel: yeah, like for asdf except you put the project where zRecursive said. wait do you need to put a file in the ~/.sbcl/system also?
2014-04-09T02:56:51Z zenyfish: zRecursive: nydel thank you i will put them to local-projects
2014-04-09T02:56:54Z nydel: i think i usually do. a symlink
2014-04-09T02:57:32Z zenyfish: in fact the only thing i want is sbcl to be aware of where my .lisp files are...
2014-04-09T02:57:38Z Vivitron: with local-projects you don't need any symlink, with setup asdf you don't need local-projects
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2014-04-09T02:57:50Z zenyfish: i think local-projects folder will solve it
2014-04-09T02:58:00Z Vivitron: it's a good solution
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2014-04-09T03:01:45Z Vivitron: it's a good solution
2014-04-09T03:01:46Z zenyfish: what i wanted was to be able to (load "hellom.lisp") in repl without giving a path but it doesn't do it
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2014-04-09T03:02:33Z zenyfish: i put hello.lisp in local-projects but can't load it
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2014-04-09T03:03:06Z zenyfish: so there is load-path for emacs is there something similar for sbcl ?
2014-04-09T03:03:09Z nydel: well you're not calling a quicklisp command
2014-04-09T03:03:18Z zenyfish: ah ok
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2014-04-09T03:03:50Z nydel: if you want to load something without a filepath (why, by the way?) you run emacs in that directory. not sure exactly how to alter that variable
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2014-04-09T03:05:08Z zenyfish: in fact when i (ql:quickload "hellom.lisp") --> it autocompletes the file name without giving a folder name but when runs it gives an error
2014-04-09T03:05:15Z nydel: if i were you i'd do (defparameter *filepath-directory* "/home/nydel/dev/lisp/hello/") at the beginning of the file
2014-04-09T03:05:56Z nydel: then define a function (load-hello-file "hello.lisp") that does (concatenate 'string *filepath-directory* arg)
2014-04-09T03:06:22Z nydel: and loads that up line by line to an open stream and returns the stream
2014-04-09T03:06:30Z Vivitron: zenyfish: the "systems" that the quicklisp documentation refers to are asdf systems
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2014-04-09T03:08:57Z nydel: doesn't quicklisp also accept (ql:quickload 'system) for anything you've installed system-wide with asdf-install
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2014-04-09T03:09:24Z nydel: perhaps locally as well
2014-04-09T03:09:34Z zenyfish: nydel: Vivitron noob here trying to read through PCL
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2014-04-09T03:10:53Z nydel: zenyfish: i doubt anyone ever gets all the way through pcl. it's more of a reference / best friend / mistress.
2014-04-09T03:11:04Z nydel: zenyfish: but you're in good hands with that.
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2014-04-09T03:11:37Z zenyfish: nydel: i will go for a walk right now and then will be doing a readathon
2014-04-09T03:12:16Z zenyfish: its 6:10 am here is that ny new york?
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2014-04-09T03:12:30Z zRecursive: zenyfish: it is better to create ~/quicklisp/local-projects/hello/hello.asd as (asdf:defsystem #:hello :components ((:file "hello"))), then you can (ql:quickload :hello)
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2014-04-09T03:13:20Z zenyfish tries what zRecursive just said
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2014-04-09T03:14:10Z nydel: no, nydel is a 5-letter "hacker handle" i decided on with a random-letter shell script in the early 1990s
2014-04-09T03:14:14Z zenyfish: zRecursive: no , that way i should create an asd file for every .lisp file
2014-04-09T03:14:24Z zRecursive: zenyfish: put hello.lisp into ~/quicklisp/local-projects/hello/
2014-04-09T03:14:30Z nydel: zenyfish: i live in california :) it's 2014 (time)
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2014-04-09T03:15:09Z nydel: zRecursive: then he could do (load "hello.lisp") and it would read that file?
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2014-04-09T03:15:53Z zenyfish: my brain just stopped , i didn't sleep all night guys , i am just staring at what you write without understanding anything :)
2014-04-09T03:15:58Z zRecursive: zenyfish: you should think that each *.lisp belonging to a system
2014-04-09T03:16:04Z Vivitron: zenyfish: Xach wrote a couple of tutorials for small asdf systems which I liked http://xach.livejournal.com/278047.html (you can skip the parts on setting up the asdf config file because you are using local-projects)
2014-04-09T03:16:55Z zenyfish: Vivitron: wow that Zach is this Xach?
2014-04-09T03:16:56Z zRecursive: Anf asdf is used to manage those systems
2014-04-09T03:17:42Z Vivitron: zenyfish: yes, one of the reasons I like using his projects, including quicklisp, is that he is a clear writer:)
2014-04-09T03:18:28Z zenyfish: very cool person , answered my stupid question
2014-04-09T03:18:38Z zenyfish: *questions
2014-04-09T03:18:53Z zRecursive: and if you indeed want to load a single lisp file, you should provide absolute path. it seems there is no %load-path in CL as emacs
2014-04-09T03:19:01Z zenyfish: i mean everyone in the channel is in fact awesome
2014-04-09T03:19:34Z Adlai: has anybody used CL-PDF recently?
2014-04-09T03:19:36Z Vivitron: zenyfish: they've helped me a lot too
2014-04-09T03:19:48Z zenyfish: zRecursive: yes i think i will do that way
2014-04-09T03:20:12Z zenyfish: nydel: i will just give absolute path
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2014-04-09T03:21:01Z loke_: zenyfish: You can easily write a function to search for the file in multiple paths
2014-04-09T03:21:32Z zenyfish: in fact i found something for emacs which completes path names with auto-complete
2014-04-09T03:21:44Z nydel: zennyfish: i usually just make a folder for a project, such as ~/projects/cl-hello-world/ and put a "project.lisp" inside a "src" directory then have project.lisp do all my quicklisp loading and loading of other files
2014-04-09T03:22:06Z nydel: then when i'm done, if it's something i want to package, i define a system and make a cl-hello-world.asd and all that later
2014-04-09T03:22:56Z zenyfish: in fact i think i should read some quicklisp documentation then this problem will be no more
2014-04-09T03:23:36Z zRecursive maybe CL should provide %load-path as emacs does ?
2014-04-09T03:23:45Z zenyfish: if i just create a project with quicklisp this would not be a problem i think
2014-04-09T03:23:53Z nydel: i think you should read up on how to make a asd project. just find your favorite project on github and look at how it's structured.
2014-04-09T03:24:24Z zRecursive: zenyfish: there is already quick-project
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2014-04-09T03:24:46Z zRecursive: for you to build project skeleton
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2014-04-09T03:25:57Z nydel: zRecursive: my quicklisp doesn't load a :quick-project
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2014-04-09T03:26:43Z zenyfish checks quick-project
2014-04-09T03:27:21Z zRecursive: nydel: (ql:apropos ...) ?
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2014-04-09T03:30:37Z zenyfish: zRecursive: where will i put this quick-project folder?
2014-04-09T03:31:35Z zenyfish: or load it?
2014-04-09T03:31:56Z zenyfish: load it with quicklisp?
2014-04-09T03:32:41Z zenyfish: just a sec i found documentation
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2014-04-09T03:50:57Z zenyfish: ok i get out for a morning walk let my brain have some oxygen then come back.thank you for all the help
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2014-04-09T03:51:40Z zenyfish: http://xach.livejournal.com/278047.html?thread=674335 when i come back i will try this one
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2014-04-09T04:09:21Z nyef: jasom: Okay, current status: We (pkhuong and I) have tracked down what we believe to be the underlying bug, but not yet a fix. It's late, we'll probably continue looking at it tomorrow.
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2014-04-09T04:19:49Z nyef: jasom: And bisection seems to say that 1.1.13 is the last release prior to this issue being uncovered, although the root bug is present in 1.0.23.
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2014-04-09T04:21:47Z nyef: (I still have a couple more steps in the bisection, but it's down to a range of about 20 commits right now.)
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2014-04-09T06:22:28Z pjb: zRecursive: Why should it provide a load-path when it's trivial to do it:; (dolist (*default-pathname-defaults* *load-path*) (when (ignore-errors (load file)) (return)))
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2014-04-09T06:34:05Z zenyfish: pjb: i was reading PCL and came across this --> CL-USER> (load "hello.lisp") ; Loading /home/peter/my-lisp-programs/hello.lisp
2014-04-09T06:35:11Z zenyfish: so without giving path hello.lisp is just loaded , but when i try doing it , it gives error
2014-04-09T06:35:28Z Adlai: zenyfish: if you're using slime, try ,pwd and ,cd
2014-04-09T06:36:19Z zenyfish: Adlai: ok
2014-04-09T06:38:02Z zenyfish: Adlai: cool this was what i wanted :)
2014-04-09T06:39:02Z zenyfish: after every message i send to the channel i get a message from wakiss , is it a coincidance?
2014-04-09T06:39:39Z Adlai slaps wakiss around a bit with a lame joke
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2014-04-09T06:42:45Z ck_: Adlai: I am using cl-pdf, for some value of using.
2014-04-09T06:44:07Z zenyfish: Adlai: how can make that directory which i changed to , my default loading directory?
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2014-04-09T06:47:32Z Adlai: zenyfish: in your initialization file, which is in an implementation-dependant location
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2014-04-09T06:50:38Z Adlai: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/v_defaul.htm
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2014-04-09T06:55:22Z Adlai: ck_: does your value include pdf-parser.lisp?
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2014-04-09T07:00:38Z zenyfish: Adlai: http://marc.info/?l=sbcl-devel&m=125538811028785 i think i should only change it with cd
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2014-04-09T07:02:20Z zenyfish: anyways my problem is solved thank you
2014-04-09T07:03:21Z |3b| isn't sure what you mean, but that link seems to be about changing how sbcl sets *default-pathname-defaults* when you start it, not something users should do
2014-04-09T07:03:52Z |3b|: *default-pathname-defaults* is how you tell CL how to interpret relative paths, so that is what you should use if you want to do that
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2014-04-09T07:04:26Z zenyfish: 3b yes i think so
2014-04-09T07:04:44Z zenyfish: i meant |3b|
2014-04-09T07:05:00Z |3b|: ,cd in slime repl is a shortcut to do so, and probably change emacs directory to match
2014-04-09T07:05:43Z zenyfish: |3b|: yes , is it allowed?
2014-04-09T07:06:00Z zenyfish: |3b|: would there be any problems?
2014-04-09T07:06:09Z |3b|: ,cd is a reasonable thing to use when working in slime repl
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2014-04-09T07:06:48Z zenyfish: |3b|: ok , where can i find other "cd" like commands?
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2014-04-09T07:06:59Z |3b|: you should also know about *default-pathname-defaults* though, since you aren't always working in a repl (for example when you need to change it from a program that wants to use relative pathnames)
2014-04-09T07:07:43Z zenyfish: ok
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2014-04-09T07:12:23Z |3b|: also note that CL doesn't have the same concept of a "working directory" that is more common in current systems
2014-04-09T07:13:03Z |3b|: *default-pathname-defaults* can supply any parts of a pathname, or none, for example it might just specify an extension or version, and you would need to specify a path
2014-04-09T07:14:27Z ck_: Adlai: no, sorry, I only draw, never read.
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2014-04-09T07:20:07Z Adlai survived nearly 15 years of coding without dealing with encodings... oh well
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2014-04-09T07:34:28Z loke_: Encodings are must less of a problem these days when people got used to UTF-8
2014-04-09T07:34:51Z loke_: Back in the bad old days (early 2000) it was mind of a mess
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2014-04-09T07:50:50Z zmyrgel: hi
2014-04-09T07:51:12Z zmyrgel: I'm trying to make a cl-fastcgi app but I'm having a little trouble loading the library
2014-04-09T07:52:01Z zmyrgel: the cl-fastcgi load external c library but it has wrong path for it, /usr/lib instead of /usr/lib64
2014-04-09T07:53:08Z zmyrgel: the cl-fastcgi has load-fcgi function where you can specify the library path but I can't use it from my app as the library is already loaded by then
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2014-04-09T07:53:53Z zmyrgel: how could you process cl-fastcgi dependency in asdf so that it loads correct library?
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2014-04-09T08:00:02Z zmyrgel: ah, nevermind. Got it fixed
2014-04-09T08:00:16Z zmyrgel: apparently I needed the fcgi-devel package as well
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2014-04-09T08:09:07Z splittist: zmyrgel: thanks for the update (:
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2014-04-09T10:02:45Z kami: Hello #lisp
2014-04-09T10:02:50Z InvalidCo: hello kami
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2014-04-09T10:14:42Z splittist: slime's modeline hinting is awesome.
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2014-04-09T10:19:46Z antoszka: splittist: how do you enable that?
2014-04-09T10:23:23Z splittist: Just Works, for me. Using quicklisp's slime-helper. I mean the function argument information echoed in the minibuffer. So, actually, neither of the modelines (:
2014-04-09T10:26:01Z splittist: I was impressed at the way I no longer have to look up how to use print-object or initialize-instance :after, for example.
2014-04-09T10:26:52Z antoszka: Ah, the minibuffer, yeah. I'm using that too.
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2014-04-09T12:26:57Z nyef: G'morning all.
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2014-04-09T12:27:56Z nyef: Hrm. Looks like someone is lurking on the channel to harvest nicks for privmsg spam.
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2014-04-09T12:36:13Z splittist: Someone from a rather nice suburb outside Madrid?
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2014-04-09T12:38:14Z nyef: I have no idea where, TBH, but that wouldn't surprise me.
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2014-04-09T13:30:08Z hijarian: Hi guys, does anyone knows about the fate of "dandelion" project, an Eclipse plugin for developing in Lisp? I really wanted to look at source, but only sources I could find both in off site and sourceforge are for lisp server connector and not for plugin itself.
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2014-04-09T13:42:18Z Xach: hijarian: You could ask tritchey. He worked with the guy who wrote it for a while. Maybe he knows directly or can put you in touch with someone who does.
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2014-04-09T13:45:29Z hijarian: Xach: Oh, Xach! Always wanted to thank you for the quicklisp, it basically started a revolution in lisp development. Thank you so much. Anyway. Don't see anyone named "tritchey" here. Is he hanging here from time to time or there's some other means of communication?
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2014-04-09T13:46:27Z Xach: He used to come here sometimes. He is @tritchey on twitter. I don't think he uses lisp any more but he can make the connection for you, maybe.
2014-04-09T13:46:44Z Xach: Glad to hear that quicklisp is helpful!
2014-04-09T13:47:19Z dim: oh, helpful it is!
2014-04-09T13:47:50Z dim: I would picture it as a game changer... but I wasn't there before (partly because it didn't existed)
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2014-04-09T13:48:36Z hijarian: dim: Next game changer would be a CMS+CMF, I guess.
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2014-04-09T13:48:51Z H4ns: game changer
2014-04-09T13:49:14Z JuanDaugherty: change gamer
2014-04-09T13:49:14Z dlowe: the hockey stick graph of lisp adoption
2014-04-09T13:49:23Z H4ns: i can see it already
2014-04-09T13:49:28Z Cymew: CMS+CMF?
2014-04-09T13:49:33Z hijarian: Xach: OK, will try to squeeze him out of Twitter.
2014-04-09T13:49:37Z JuanDaugherty: framework I think
2014-04-09T13:49:45Z JuanDaugherty: or facility
2014-04-09T13:49:55Z hijarian: Cymew: JuanDaugherty: Web framework and the content management system on top of it.
2014-04-09T13:50:22Z Cymew: Lisp based systems?
2014-04-09T13:50:24Z splittist: bah, the web is nearly over.
2014-04-09T13:50:27Z hijarian: In our crazy age only something which will ease the making of web sites can increase the adoption of language.
2014-04-09T13:50:38Z JuanDaugherty: besides the current suspects, don't hold your bref on that
2014-04-09T13:50:40Z hijarian: splittist: LOL, nice joke. :)
2014-04-09T13:51:07Z H4ns: hijarian: you can be the next person to try writing a web framework in lisp
2014-04-09T13:51:14Z H4ns: hijarian: welcome to the club!
2014-04-09T13:51:31Z hijarian: H4ns: :D
2014-04-09T13:52:03Z hijarian: H4ns: Of course I learned about the absurd situation with Lisp and web frameworks.
2014-04-09T13:53:28Z Cymew: I always ask the stupid questions about lisp and web frameworks, since I really don't live in that world.
2014-04-09T13:53:37Z JuanDaugherty: there needs to be more stigma for reinventing an adequate wheel
2014-04-09T13:54:01Z dlowe: The programmer wanted to write a web app.  'I know,' thought the programmer. 'I'll write a web framework for my app.'  Now he had two problems.
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2014-04-09T13:54:15Z H4ns: the current twist is "frameworks suck"
2014-04-09T13:54:34Z JuanDaugherty: right now if it works it's OK. Should be works but redundant same as broke ass.
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2014-04-09T13:55:08Z dlowe: I thought the Toot project was a pretty good idea.
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2014-04-09T13:55:30Z JuanDaugherty: if you mean hunchen I think it's on top right now
2014-04-09T13:55:49Z hijarian: JuanDaugherty: hunchentoot is not the framework, it's too low-level for that
2014-04-09T13:56:07Z JuanDaugherty: and it somewhat skirts the issue I mention by just being pieces parts
2014-04-09T13:56:09Z H4ns: JuanDaugherty: no, peter seibel spent some time refactoring hunchentoot, basically by removing things.
2014-04-09T13:56:27Z JuanDaugherty: ah great thx, will take a look later today
2014-04-09T13:57:06Z H4ns: hijarian: you know, if you start writing a framework, then that is a mistake from the beginning.  write a few applications in the same space, combine the common code that you have and document it, now you have a framework.  it is not a bottom-up thing.
2014-04-09T13:57:54Z H4ns: JuanDaugherty: the biggest issue with toot is that it removed features and the documentation, so it is of questionable use now.  also, the biggest problem that hunchentoot has, its architecture revolving around streams, is not addressed by toot.
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2014-04-09T13:58:45Z JuanDaugherty: ah OK, so thanks for saving the time
2014-04-09T13:59:54Z hijarian: H4ns: Well, you know, you haven't told anything new with this statement ;) It's the obvious way to end with the framework. It's the project with specific feature scope and target audience all the time.
2014-04-09T14:00:54Z H4ns: hijarian: right.  so you can stop longing for frameworks and start writing applications now.  if you write enough of them, you might be the creator of the next lisp web framework in the future.
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2014-04-09T14:01:49Z hijarian: H4ns: Thank you, man. It's kinda inspiring. :)
2014-04-09T14:01:59Z dlowe: H4ns: interesting. I wasn't aware of the stream-based architecture being a problem.
2014-04-09T14:02:37Z H4ns: dlowe: i'd like to see it as one on the path towards an asynchronous http substrate.
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2014-04-09T14:02:51Z dlowe: though I can certainly see it, having had to deal with network streams myself.
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2014-04-09T14:03:54Z dlowe: AFAIK, only iolib has made a serious effort to be an asynchronous substrate
2014-04-09T14:04:21Z dlowe: I'm a little surprised someone hasn't written a whole bunch of network services based on it
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2014-04-09T14:15:41Z p_l: dlowe: I think libfixposix might be responsible
2014-04-09T14:16:19Z dlowe: Maybe. It was just a apt-get away for me.
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2014-04-09T14:16:28Z p_l: or just the way a lot more stuff was easily loadable with usocket
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2014-04-09T14:18:10Z dlowe: yeah, but an async library is a good chance to make a bunch of interoperable stuff.
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2014-04-09T14:18:53Z dlowe: well, I guess people don't feel that strongly about it anyway
2014-04-09T14:19:14Z dlowe: I myself patched cl-irc to use iolib rather than write a new iolib irc component
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2014-04-09T14:20:32Z Cymew: submitted upstream?
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2014-04-09T14:21:42Z dlowe: hm? no.  There's been no indication cl-irc wants to be dependent on iolib
2014-04-09T14:21:54Z dlowe: it's publicly available if someone wants to integrate it
2014-04-09T14:22:49Z Cymew: That's good, though.
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2014-04-09T14:23:26Z dlowe: I wanted timed events without messing with threads.
2014-04-09T14:23:37Z Cymew: I thought iolib was what people used. That just proved how much I know...
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2014-04-09T14:24:25Z phadthai: it depends, there also are libevent wrappers, implementation-specific network libs etc
2014-04-09T14:24:46Z dlowe: I would hesitate to generalize about lispers.
2014-04-09T14:24:52Z phadthai: and old popular abstractions like usocket which are fine for many simple cases
2014-04-09T14:25:37Z JuanDaugherty: dlowe, point, it's not a typical computing culture
2014-04-09T14:25:57Z JuanDaugherty: although I guess it has a typical subset
2014-04-09T14:27:01Z dlowe: I think the college/university experience of lisp is so terrible that it's only the self-taught that give it a chance.
2014-04-09T14:27:05Z H4ns: JuanDaugherty: for everything that you might identify als "typical subset" a strong voice exists in the lisp community  that disagrees
2014-04-09T14:28:53Z JuanDaugherty: right by "typical subset" I was referring to that pig in a python, the professional dilletantes that try their hand at IT doing and get out on or before the average attrition date
2014-04-09T14:30:51Z JuanDaugherty: but yeah, lisp, CL in particular is an especially fractitious bunch
2014-04-09T14:31:26Z JuanDaugherty: haskell culture is much more conformist for example
2014-04-09T14:31:29Z Zhivago: It comes from associating with syncretic abomination.
2014-04-09T14:31:48Z JuanDaugherty: *fractious
2014-04-09T14:32:54Z JuanDaugherty: in the nature of list I guess
2014-04-09T14:32:58Z JuanDaugherty: p
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2014-04-09T14:37:16Z p_l: I think it might be related a bit to how Haskell got dominated by single implementation
2014-04-09T14:37:37Z p_l: in CL, we have a stable standard and a bunch of libs covering things outside standard
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2014-04-09T14:40:13Z phadthai: and projects like asdf-install and quicklisp can also be considered "late" in the lisp culture, versus cpan for perl, gem for ruby etc, I guess
2014-04-09T14:41:40Z phadthai: other than vendor-specific solutions
2014-04-09T14:43:04Z p_l: well, there was AI Archive
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2014-04-09T14:45:58Z Xach: CLOCC
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2014-04-09T14:55:59Z phadthai: http://cliki.net/CLOCC  heh, "except for SBCL"
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2014-04-09T14:56:38Z phadthai: I didn't even know, or at least remember, about CLOCC
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2014-04-09T14:57:35Z Krystof: ha
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2014-04-09T14:59:15Z Xach: I missed the CLOCC era almost entirely
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2014-04-09T15:00:02Z dlowe: I wonder if it'd be worth plundering, separating into libraries, and then submitting to quicklisp
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2014-04-09T15:00:09Z phadthai: I've only used lisp in the last few years myself, and come from a bsd culture more than a debian one, although I did run slink and potato at some point
2014-04-09T15:00:10Z dlowe: There might be some good stuff in there
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2014-04-09T15:08:56Z hlavaty: dlowe: async io is completely incompatible with any existing nontrivial lisp code;  it's mainly useful for (micro)optimizing programs that move many bytes around (like serving files or proxying data streams) but for many lisp apps, the interesting problems are somewhere else
2014-04-09T15:09:29Z dlowe: hlavaty: um, okay?
2014-04-09T15:10:58Z H4ns: hlavaty: i don't quite agree, though.  many of the interesting problems today involve handling a very large number of client connections, and lisp streams with their reliance on threads are not a good answer to that.
2014-04-09T15:12:25Z hlavaty: the problem runs very deep into the semantic of the language
2014-04-09T15:12:44Z H4ns: hlavaty: no, it runs deep into the implementation of streams :)
2014-04-09T15:12:56Z hlavaty: kind of but not really
2014-04-09T15:13:26Z hlavaty: the essential question is, what happens to my code, when EAGAIN happens?
2014-04-09T15:13:47Z hlavaty: iolib doesnt solve this problem
2014-04-09T15:13:53Z H4ns: hlavaty: correct.  and lisp has nothing to offer in that regard.  it does not specify anything related to concurrency.
2014-04-09T15:14:09Z H4ns: hlavaty: now, as we're outside of the spec, we're also outside of the "semantics of the language"
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2014-04-09T15:16:15Z hlavaty: jain:-)  maybe because there is not so much useful that such a lisp standard could say
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2014-04-09T15:16:59Z H4ns: hlavaty: what i mean to say is that it would certainly be possible to implement streams that do not rely on threads, but instead on some i/o mulitplexing mechanism.  cmucl has that.
2014-04-09T15:17:45Z H4ns: hlavaty: another approach would be to avoid streams for the implementation of a http substrate in favor of an architecture that is easier to map to asynchronous i/o.
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2014-04-09T15:18:00Z H4ns: hlavaty: and that is where hunchentoot falls over the cliff, as does toot.
2014-04-09T15:18:11Z hlavaty: yeah, but it is not the same, didnt sbcl have that too and removed it
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2014-04-09T15:18:52Z H4ns: so?  in sbcl, they removed the multiplexer based mp in favor of threads, but how does change anything?
2014-04-09T15:19:20Z hlavaty: i think the deepest issue is of the programming style
2014-04-09T15:20:11Z H4ns: if you want to call the avoidance of streams a "style issue", then yes.
2014-04-09T15:20:12Z hlavaty: introducing async io requires completely different programming style; which is completely incompatible with the usual one;  making libraries unusable
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2014-04-09T15:21:07Z fe[nl]ix: the problem is that if you want 10k+ light threads, currently you have to do it in userland
2014-04-09T15:21:10Z hlavaty: streams are very nice idea
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2014-04-09T15:21:14Z fe[nl]ix: but you lose kernel preemption
2014-04-09T15:21:42Z fe[nl]ix: and you have to rewrite everything to be non-blocking
2014-04-09T15:21:45Z fe[nl]ix: that sucks
2014-04-09T15:21:49Z H4ns: you can't have the cake and eat it.
2014-04-09T15:21:51Z hlavaty: exactly
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2014-04-09T15:22:03Z fe[nl]ix: yes, you now can: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXuZi9aeGTw
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2014-04-09T15:22:23Z fe[nl]ix: now somebody has to integrate that into the various runtimes
2014-04-09T15:22:42Z fe[nl]ix: in other words, you need kernel support for userland schedulers
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2014-04-09T15:25:03Z hlavaty: H4ns: how is cmucl io multiplexing mechanism is the solution?
2014-04-09T15:25:07Z fe[nl]ix: what's in that presentation is similar to what I've been thinking for the past few years
2014-04-09T15:25:16Z fe[nl]ix: but I've never had the time to get into kernel programming
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2014-04-09T15:25:28Z fe[nl]ix: now, yay, somebody did it :)
2014-04-09T15:26:00Z H4ns: hlavaty: i'm not saying that it is the solution, it is just a user-level implementation of multiprocessing that does not resort to threads, but maps to i/o multiplexing underneath
2014-04-09T15:26:19Z H4ns: hlavaty: it does have other problems, though.
2014-04-09T15:26:29Z H4ns: (so i hear)
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2014-04-09T15:26:49Z fe[nl]ix: H4ns: if that code goes mainline, you'll be able to have your cakes and eat them too
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2014-04-09T15:27:04Z hlavaty: but it doesnt work for the use case of serving many users in parallel, does it?
2014-04-09T15:27:37Z hlavaty: where would the lisp code keep the stack allocated data when the multiplexing point comes?
2014-04-09T15:27:39Z H4ns: hlavaty: for some value of "many" it works well.  it worked well for me, but i did not have more than a few hundred users.
2014-04-09T15:28:04Z H4ns: hlavaty: because it is all user-level, it is up to the runtime to decide that
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2014-04-09T15:28:53Z nyef: hlavaty: In one implementation I ran into, ISTR the answer was "separate stacks per userland ``thread''". In another the answer was a lot uglier, and was basically "don't".
2014-04-09T15:29:20Z hlavaty: so in other words, green threads?  i dont think that is what i understand by async io, aka iolib idea
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2014-04-09T15:32:33Z H4ns: hlavaty: so you want all the ugly callback style that yields unreadable programs to then demonstrate that we can make it go away with macros?
2014-04-09T15:32:48Z H4ns: hlavaty: i'm pretty sure i do not want that at all.
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2014-04-09T15:33:33Z fe[nl]ix: hlavaty: green threads with kernel support
2014-04-09T15:33:35Z fe[nl]ix: no more async
2014-04-09T15:33:52Z fe[nl]ix: no callbacks
2014-04-09T15:33:58Z fe[nl]ix: I hate node.js
2014-04-09T15:33:59Z hlavaty: H4ns: no, i want simple synchronous code, and use threads (native or green, but threads)
2014-04-09T15:34:07Z fe[nl]ix is excited
2014-04-09T15:34:16Z JuanDaugherty: fe[nl]ix, don't be a hater
2014-04-09T15:34:19Z H4ns: hlavaty: right.  so fe[nl]ix has what you need.
2014-04-09T15:34:33Z JuanDaugherty just completed an Angular proj
2014-04-09T15:35:02Z fe[nl]ix: JuanDaugherty: I wallow in hate right now
2014-04-09T15:35:08Z JuanDaugherty: but I'm also working on a lisp OSey kind of thing
2014-04-09T15:35:29Z phadthai: fe[nl]ix: it reminds me of scheduler activations, something which some unices used (solaris, netbsd) to implement M:N threads before, but both eventually switched to 1:1 for implementation simplicity
2014-04-09T15:35:32Z JuanDaugherty: yeah wallowing if fun, oink :)
2014-04-09T15:35:36Z JuanDaugherty: s
2014-04-09T15:36:00Z phadthai: fe[nl]ix: basically a mix of kernel-assisted user threads
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2014-04-09T15:36:34Z fe[nl]ix: yeah, I like those
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2014-04-09T15:39:57Z hlavaty: H4ns: sorry i misunderstood your longing for "asynchronous http substrate"; i thought the talk was about iolib, not green threads:-)
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2014-04-09T15:40:33Z H4ns: hlavaty: i am confused, too.
2014-04-09T15:40:44Z H4ns: hlavaty: so is hunchentoot good or no? :)
2014-04-09T15:41:02Z JuanDaugherty: the pieces parts is good
2014-04-09T15:42:20Z H4ns: hlavaty: if we accept that the lisp runtimes are not good at producing a process abstraction for a large number of processes, then hunchentoot is not good because it requires streams.
2014-04-09T15:42:32Z hlavaty: H4ns: well i wrote my own web server already, based on a different idea of streams then cl streams
2014-04-09T15:42:42Z H4ns: hlavaty: we'll then need some other lisp server that maybe makes the asynchronous i/o more visible to the user program.
2014-04-09T15:43:04Z fe[nl]ix: if we had proper green threads integrated in the runtime, as per that presentation, then hunchentoot would need no change
2014-04-09T15:43:16Z H4ns: fe[nl]ix: that's what i mean.
2014-04-09T15:43:16Z hlavaty: that would be ideal
2014-04-09T15:43:32Z H4ns: no, hunchentoot would still be kind of sucky, but we'd not have to care :)
2014-04-09T15:43:37Z fe[nl]ix: you'd have one "thread" per connection, just much lighter threads
2014-04-09T15:43:51Z H4ns: like in the good old cmucl days
2014-04-09T15:45:07Z fe[nl]ix: those olden tagen were nich so gut
2014-04-09T15:45:08Z hlavaty: doesnt hunchentoot work on cmucl without native threads?
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2014-04-09T15:45:35Z H4ns: hlavaty: it does, or at least it did at some point
2014-04-09T15:45:46Z H4ns: fe[nl]ix: my garbage collector discards the bad memories first.
2014-04-09T15:46:08Z hlavaty: so your complaint could be simply solved by moving to a different lisp implementation
2014-04-09T15:46:34Z H4ns: hlavaty: i have no complaint.  i'm just taking part in an open discussion.
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2014-04-09T15:49:02Z hlavaty: i was actually thinking about making my streams EAGAIN aware (portably) by throwing condition to the top of the trampoline loop and then resuming at the right point when scheduled by custom scheduler; but the streams code would be much uglier and it seems it's better just to use threads
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2014-04-09T15:52:10Z hlavaty: the problem is that all code that keeps state on the stack would have to be able to save it's state when interrupted and carry on when resumed;  in other words; all the code would have to be only EAGAIN aware streams; which get ugly to write
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2014-04-09T15:54:01Z H4ns: i think this is not a very viable strategy.
2014-04-09T15:55:18Z fe[nl]ix: it's what Erlang does
2014-04-09T15:55:25Z hlavaty: agreed
2014-04-09T15:56:05Z hlavaty: although it might not be as bad as it seems
2014-04-09T15:56:07Z fe[nl]ix: but in practice you need a bytecode-interpreting virtual machine for that approach to be viable
2014-04-09T15:56:23Z hlavaty: or a scheme interpreter :-)
2014-04-09T15:56:50Z fe[nl]ix: I said viable, not just possible
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2014-04-09T16:24:05Z hitecnologys: Is there a way to create something like "empty" readtable or at least delete all dispatch macros except ( and ) from it? I've tried googling and reading CLHS but found nothing about such a use case. I'd like to use CL reader to read user input and I don't want him to be able to use any read macros (like ', `, #., #, etc). Would that be wise to use reader in such way or I should better write one by myself?
2014-04-09T16:25:31Z nyef: To destroy a dispatch macro, use SET-SYNTAX-FROM-CHAR.
2014-04-09T16:25:39Z nyef: (I think that's what it is, at least.)
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2014-04-09T16:26:18Z nyef: If you need to handle #\: differently from what CL does, that's one of the points when you need to write your own reader.
2014-04-09T16:27:49Z hitecnologys: Not really. Basically, I just don't want user to be able to execute anything inside his input. (like #. does: (read-from-string "#.(do 'nasty-things) blah blah"))
2014-04-09T16:28:26Z nyef: Also have a look at WITH-STANDARD-IO-SYNTAX and *READ-EVAL*.
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2014-04-09T16:30:39Z hitecnologys: So, I just set *read-eval* to NIL, set HANDLER-CASE to handle reader exception and I'm safe?
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2014-04-09T16:31:48Z nyef: Depends on your definition of "safe". Remember that READ can intern, so repeated use can fill up the current package (or another package, given a valid unlocked package name) with symbols, and so on.
2014-04-09T16:32:08Z hitecnologys: I see.
2014-04-09T16:33:48Z hitecnologys: Well, reading stuff, parsing it as a list (which is much easier than working with raw strings) and uninterning each symbol in a parsed list after that would suffice, I guess.
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2014-04-09T16:34:08Z pjb: hitecnologys: (copy-readtable nil)
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2014-04-09T16:34:23Z pjb: clhs copy-readtable
2014-04-09T16:34:23Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_cp_rdt.htm
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2014-04-09T16:35:10Z hitecnologys: pjb: doesn't this just create default one?
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2014-04-09T16:35:28Z pjb: hitecnologys: yes.  And from there, you can remove the reader macros you don't like.
2014-04-09T16:35:54Z pjb: (hello "world") --> (HELLO |"WORLD"|) must be funny.
2014-04-09T16:36:11Z hitecnologys: pjb: is there any way to get a list of all reader macros in given readtable in a processable format?
2014-04-09T16:36:23Z pjb: Of course.
2014-04-09T16:36:32Z pjb: clhs get-macro-character
2014-04-09T16:36:32Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_set_ma.htm
2014-04-09T16:36:44Z pjb: clhs char-code-limit
2014-04-09T16:36:44Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_char_c.htm
2014-04-09T16:36:54Z hitecnologys: So, I just iterate over all letters?
2014-04-09T16:37:01Z pjb: Of course.
2014-04-09T16:37:32Z pjb: Now, theorically, from the (copy-readtable nil), you could directly deal only with the standard reader macros.
2014-04-09T16:37:35Z hitecnologys: That was my first idea, I thought there was more elegant way of doing this then. Turns out I was wrong.
2014-04-09T16:37:43Z pjb: But iterating would be safer.
2014-04-09T16:38:05Z hitecnologys: I see.
2014-04-09T16:38:21Z hitecnologys: OK, thanks for help pjb and nyef.
2014-04-09T16:39:11Z pjb: And also, you need to use set-syntax-from-char so you need to iterate anyways.
2014-04-09T16:39:17Z pjb: clhs set-syntax-from-char
2014-04-09T16:39:17Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_set_sy.htm
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2014-04-09T16:40:14Z hitecnologys: One more thing: is #. the only standard read macro that can make reader evaluate code?
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2014-04-09T16:41:15Z nyef: To evaluate arbitrary code directly? I believe so.
2014-04-09T16:41:39Z hitecnologys: I see.
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2014-04-09T16:42:30Z pjb: #P x evaluates the code (pathname x)
2014-04-09T16:42:52Z pjb: #S x could evaluate the code (apply (function make-instance) x)
2014-04-09T16:43:29Z pjb: etc.
2014-04-09T16:43:37Z nyef: Was it ever determined if #S could or could not be implemented portably?
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2014-04-09T16:43:51Z pjb: Notice that #' x doesn't evaluate any code, it just reads as (function x).
2014-04-09T16:44:42Z pjb: nyef: I goess, not portably, since you need to know a constructor and/or the setters, none of them may exist.
2014-04-09T16:45:07Z hitecnologys: By the way, is LispOS mailing list at ogamita.com is dead or what?
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2014-04-09T16:45:52Z hitecnologys: s/is dead/dead/
2014-04-09T16:46:30Z pjb: Ah, ccl can't do #S(none) from (defstruct (none (:constructor nil))).
2014-04-09T16:47:13Z pjb: It's very low traffic.
2014-04-09T16:47:23Z pjb: Ie. zero traffic since last time.
2014-04-09T16:47:39Z pjb: Since beach's working on sicl for now, and I'm busy with patchwork,…
2014-04-09T16:47:39Z nyef: Not much call for a Lisp OS these days.
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2014-04-09T16:48:01Z nyef: Or even a substantial Lisp desktop experience.
2014-04-09T16:48:01Z hitecnologys: I see.
2014-04-09T16:48:35Z pjb: Somebody wrote a Lisp OS on nokia by accident.
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2014-04-09T16:48:52Z Xach: Someone crazy
2014-04-09T16:49:11Z p_l: arguably crazy, yes, but it was impressive
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2014-04-09T16:49:24Z p_l: (also a former Nokia engineer)
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2014-04-09T16:51:04Z hitecnologys: What are you, people, talking about? Can I have a link?
2014-04-09T16:51:31Z p_l: http://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/10gr05/lisp_based_operating_system_questionproposition/c6dl7s3
2014-04-09T16:51:33Z pjb: Don't you read hacker news?
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2014-04-09T16:52:23Z hitecnologys: pjb: I do, but sometimes I skip many things due to lack of time to actually read something. School keeps me pretty busy.
2014-04-09T16:53:03Z pjb: Google glasses ;-)
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2014-04-09T16:53:38Z hitecnologys: Unfortunately, they aren't compatible with my phone.
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2014-04-09T16:55:35Z pjb: nyef: 2.4.8.13 requires a standard constructor.  So #S(x . rest) can be implemented portably as (apply (intern (format nil "MAKE-~A" 'x) (symbol-package 'x)) rest)
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2014-04-09T16:56:31Z pjb: Notice also that #S(point X 1 Y 2) is equivalent to #S(point :X 1 :Y 2).
2014-04-09T16:56:58Z p_l: pjb: I do wonder if Timo Noko wrote his OS *on* a Nokia, too
2014-04-09T16:57:22Z pjb: While lost in the middle of creeks on his kayak.
2014-04-09T16:57:31Z nyef: pjb: The first thing that comes to mind is playing games so that the struct name is from a different package than the constructor, and not visible in the home package of the struct name.
2014-04-09T16:58:07Z pjb: It says a standard constructor function.  clhs defstruct describes how and where the standard constructor is defined.
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2014-04-09T16:58:39Z nyef: And I'm just looking for that now.
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2014-04-09T16:59:39Z nyef: And such package games are legit.
2014-04-09T16:59:54Z p_l: hitecnologys: https://googledrive.com/host/0B20Gki57MHVmTFpkT21kMWJrQUE/2000/commu.jpg <--- btw, this is a navigation program running on the "accidental LispOS"
2014-04-09T17:00:11Z pjb: Yes, but if the standard constructor is not there, then #S can't work.  You can implement it portably.
2014-04-09T17:00:23Z hitecnologys: p_l: huh, looks nice.
2014-04-09T17:00:32Z pjb: You don't have to know anything that the compiler would know in the background.
2014-04-09T17:00:52Z nyef: No, no... My point is that you can't necessarily find the standard constructor by looking in the home package of the struct name.
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2014-04-09T17:01:13Z pjb: nyef: and my point is that you can.
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2014-04-09T17:01:35Z pjb: Try: #S(cl-user:point) vs.  #S(keyword:point)
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2014-04-09T17:02:07Z pjb: and (in-package :p1) (defstruct p2::s) #S(p1::s) vs. #S(p2::s)
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2014-04-09T17:04:59Z nyef: http://paste.lisp.org/display/141962
2014-04-09T17:06:17Z nyef: There is no p1:make-something symbol. p2:make-something is a standard constructor for p1:something.
2014-04-09T17:07:17Z nydel: i need an example of usocket listening and accepting multiple, separate connections (not just one stream) ... could anyone point me at anything
2014-04-09T17:07:59Z pjb: This is a conformity bug, I'd say.
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2014-04-09T17:09:04Z nyef: My point is that defstruct explicitly says that the standard constructor name is interned in the package that is current at macroexpand time.
2014-04-09T17:09:12Z pjb: Mine too.
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2014-04-09T17:10:10Z pjb: (symbol-package 'p1:something) --> #<Package "P1">
2014-04-09T17:10:29Z pjb: so the implementations is smarter than it should.
2014-04-09T17:10:32Z nyef: Yes, but that wasn't the package that was current at macroexpand time.
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2014-04-09T17:12:04Z zenyfish: why am i getting an empty defboot.lisp file when i M-. on dolist in slime?
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2014-04-09T17:12:31Z zenyfish: by the way i am doing it in repl
2014-04-09T17:12:34Z pjb: nyef: ccl uses p2::make-something when reading #S(p1:something), this is indeed surprising.
2014-04-09T17:12:47Z oGMo: zenyfish: you didn't compile from source?
2014-04-09T17:12:59Z pjb: zenyfish: perhaps a problem with specification of source directory.  This must be configured with the implementation.
2014-04-09T17:13:01Z nyef: pjb: It's what's specified, why is that surprising?
2014-04-09T17:13:31Z nyef: pjb: For what it's worth, SBCL does the same.
2014-04-09T17:13:35Z zenyfish: oGMo: no i didn't , pjb i will check it
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2014-04-09T17:13:49Z pjb: nyef: Yes, that's specified.  It's surprising because it implies that the implementation must remember the default constructor (package) with the structure type.
2014-04-09T17:14:04Z pjb: And therefore indeed, one cannot portably implement #S.
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2014-04-09T17:14:25Z nyef: It gets worse. What happens with a structure defined as :type list ?
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2014-04-09T17:14:48Z pjb: :-)
2014-04-09T17:15:16Z zenyfish: oGMo: pjb i installed the source files should i need to tell their place to emacs ? or to to sbcl? and how can check the place of source files as seen by slime/sbcl?
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2014-04-09T17:15:28Z pjb: to sbcl, yes.
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2014-04-09T17:16:40Z pjb: zenyfish: http://xach.livejournal.com/300290.html
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2014-04-09T17:16:44Z nyef: Ah, okay. Specifying :TYPE as a structure option means that it no longer defines an actual type as for typep.
2014-04-09T17:17:16Z pjb: Nonetheless.  It needs to remember the link between the symbol naming the defstruct, and the constructor.
2014-04-09T17:17:32Z nyef: Hrm. Still has to be a type for declarations, though...
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2014-04-09T17:20:41Z nyef: So, the only way to have a portable #S is to also implement the type system.
2014-04-09T17:20:58Z pjb: No, not the type system, defstruct.
2014-04-09T17:21:13Z nyef: defstruct is required to tie into the type system at compile-time.
2014-04-09T17:21:22Z nyef: Also at runtime.
2014-04-09T17:21:24Z pjb: You can store the link in the plist of the name of the structure or in a separate table.
2014-04-09T17:21:28Z zenyfish: pjb: yes that solved my problem and i remember doing this before , i think this should go to .sbclrc
2014-04-09T17:21:37Z pjb: Yes.
2014-04-09T17:22:18Z pjb: nyef: this can be done with deftype and satisfy or thru CLOS.
2014-04-09T17:22:48Z pjb: Anyways, it's orthogonal to the struct-name <-> constructor link.
2014-04-09T17:24:33Z nyef: Hrm. Okay, starting to see how this could be worked, especially since you don't get a structure-class for structures with :type option.
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2014-04-09T18:31:31Z zenyfish: i tried --> (add-to-list 'auto-mode-alist '("\\.sbclrc\\'" . lisp-mode)) putting  into my init.el but i think .sbclrc is not a lisp file.is there anything you use to highlight it correctly?
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2014-04-09T18:38:34Z edgar-rft: zenyfish: write ";; -*- mode: lisp -*-" (without the quotes) as the first line in .sbclrc and Emacs will switch to lisp-mode when you open the file
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2014-04-09T18:41:37Z zenyfish: edgar-rft: thank you , the result is the same and this is my .sbclrc file , i find the 3rd line suspicious , do you see  a problem with that?
2014-04-09T18:41:42Z zenyfish: https://gist.github.com/10301465
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2014-04-09T18:43:00Z zenyfish: i think i should paste these things to lisp.paste
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2014-04-09T18:43:59Z Sir_herrbatka: hi guys
2014-04-09T18:44:06Z splittist: zenyfish: you mean the "#-quicklisp"?
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2014-04-09T18:44:13Z Sir_herrbatka: anybody runing here arch linux?
2014-04-09T18:44:13Z zenyfish: splittist: yes
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2014-04-09T18:46:03Z splittist: This is saying "If I don't know about quicklisp, read and evaluate the next form (which loads quicklisp). So it looks right to me, without counting parens.
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2014-04-09T18:46:22Z zenyfish: ok
2014-04-09T18:46:24Z splittist: (imagine a closing " in there somewhere)
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2014-04-09T19:57:17Z nydel: if there a woring telnetd system for cl
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2014-04-09T20:01:38Z phadthai: nydel: I haven't tried any, but http://cliki.net/site/search?query=telnet has some suggestions
2014-04-09T20:02:04Z nyef: telnetd? In this day and age?
2014-04-09T20:02:27Z nyef: I'm not even sure that I'd want to use that for MUDding.
2014-04-09T20:04:28Z antoszka: Well, telnet is just netcat more or less. Might be useful sometimes.
2014-04-09T20:05:02Z dlowe: telnet is *not* netcat
2014-04-09T20:05:11Z dlowe: there's a lot that you don't see
2014-04-09T20:05:17Z nyef: It can be, but as an interactive protocol where you might want to sling a password around it's not suited for the modern world.
2014-04-09T20:05:27Z nydel: it's for a mud-type-thing actually
2014-04-09T20:05:37Z antoszka: dlowe: I realise it's not. Especially the client.
2014-04-09T20:05:40Z nyef: And yeah, there's a bunch of stuff like terminal negotiation and whatnot.
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2014-04-09T20:06:54Z nydel: it doesn't need to be telnet exactly. i just have set up a server socket. but it only acts as one connection, that is, i want each user's connection to be unique. and i'm not sure how to go about doing that or how to research how.
2014-04-09T20:07:55Z nyef: Same way as you would in C, really, or spawn a thread-per-connection like Hunchentoot does, or... Yeah.
2014-04-09T20:07:56Z Xach: nydel: man 7 tcp ain't bad
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2014-04-09T20:08:32Z Xach: hmm, that's not as useful as i remember.
2014-04-09T20:08:42Z nyef: There's a reason why I have a copy of Stevens "Advanced Programming in the UNIX Environment" on my bookshelf, even if I haven't actually opened it in years.
2014-04-09T20:08:53Z Xach: Oh, I guess the second paragraph is a decent place to chase down references to the right system calls.
2014-04-09T20:09:30Z nydel: nyef: do i have any books laying around that get into multi-threading with sockets
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2014-04-09T20:11:14Z nyef: There are three basic options with sockets and threads. One is single-thread I/O multiplex. One is an M:N model. And one is single-thread-per-connection plus one to monitor the host socket. The latter is "easiest" in a sense, since you just spawn a thread and treat the socket stream normally, but it doesn't scale all that well.
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2014-04-09T20:11:30Z nydel: Xach: oh i see this is somewhat helpful, thanks. i'd still do very well with an example and all the systems i can find are pretty broken or incomplete
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2014-04-09T20:11:57Z nyef: M:N gives you the worst of both worlds. Multithread synchronization problems plus having to write event-driven style I/O multiplex code.
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2014-04-09T20:13:34Z nydel: nyef: if i do the single-per + monitor, should i begin by defining a connection maybe as a structure?
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2014-04-09T20:16:23Z nyef: Probably, as having a single place to store relevant data is usually a good thing anyway, although for the most part unless you need some amount of communication between connections (not always guaranteed, consider the web server case) you can get away with just using thread-local storage.
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2014-04-09T20:16:45Z nydel: it's the taking an incoming connection, making that stream exclusive to that session & resuming listening but to direct to another instance of connection, that's where i'm not sure how to proceed
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2014-04-09T20:17:25Z nydel: the connection comes in, fine. not sure how to kinda neatly make it a thread & resume the listening.
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2014-04-09T20:18:03Z Xach: nydel: can be as simple as something like (make-thread (lambda () (new-connection-loop new-connection))
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2014-04-09T20:19:53Z nydel: Xach: right.. so the (process-incoming-thingie) function instead of going straight to looping, as in itself, it creates a thread with the tcp handling loop and calls itself again thus restarting the listening cycle
2014-04-09T20:20:21Z nydel: that make sense? unless that sounds like total nonsense i think i can probably figure it out from here.
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2014-04-09T20:21:41Z Xach: it's something like (let ((listener (make-listening-socket ...))) (loop (let ((new-connection (accept listening-socket))) (new-connction-thread new-connection))))))))))))
2014-04-09T20:22:05Z Xach: accept blocks, and new-connection-thread starts a blocking loop of its own.
2014-04-09T20:22:48Z Xach: not exactly that, but something like that.
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2014-04-09T20:23:54Z nydel: i follow, thanks Xach, i can work trial & error from that. i wonder if there's a built in mechanism to limit the # of threads/accepted incomings or if i need to write that also
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2014-04-09T20:25:32Z Xach: there's a built-in way to limit the number of backlogged un-accepted connections, but not directly to manage the number of connections you're willing to have active at a given time.
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2014-04-09T20:25:46Z Xach: see listen(2)
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2014-04-09T20:27:11Z nydel: i could count the active threads each time a request to make a new one is called, i suppose?
2014-04-09T20:28:00Z nydel: oh i'll need connections to disconnect by timeout then as well. the connection structure is probably a bit more complicated than i'm thinking
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2014-04-09T20:31:22Z nyef: You could also have a thread-pool setup. Create however many threads is your limit, have them ALL call accept(2) and enter their processing loop, and when their connection closes go back to accept(2).
2014-04-09T20:31:59Z nyef: Or still have one thread minding the host socket and dump the incoming connections through a mailbox or something.
2014-04-09T20:32:42Z phadthai: (or a few such threads to allow parallel accept)
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2014-04-09T20:33:58Z phadthai: for crow-httpd I used the threads pool approach, but the number of threads can increase/decrease instead of always the maximum (like apach does for its processes pool)
2014-04-09T20:34:18Z phadthai: s/apach/apache/
2014-04-09T20:34:29Z nyef: The more threads that you have doing any one thing and need to synchronize with each other, the trickier things get. On the other hand, inbound-connection handling is usually pretty simple to parallelize.
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2014-04-09T20:36:00Z nydel: interesting that, i hadn't even considered running all threads at start. but it makese sense. i bet trickiness could be minimized with a thread-pool structure
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2014-04-09T20:39:40Z fiveop: nyef: do you know a good text/book explaining and comparing the three modes of managing connections you described?
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2014-04-09T20:39:52Z nyef: Nope.
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2014-04-09T21:55:21Z francogrex: hi, what's the sbcl alien type equivalent to C void ?
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2014-04-09T21:57:14Z francogrex: ok never mind, asked too fast... it is void as well
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2014-04-09T22:02:29Z nyef: It's not always void. IIRC, void is only valid in a VALUES context, approximately equivalent to "no value", but where you would say "void *" in C you probably want (* t).
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2014-04-09T22:09:21Z jaimef: oh god, save me
2014-04-09T22:09:24Z dim: ah, the void* C pointer...
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2014-04-09T22:09:52Z jaimef came here to get away from the last 12 hours of C
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2014-04-09T22:12:13Z Fade: there is really no escape.
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2014-04-09T22:13:53Z afleck: Hi, I'm reading LISP (3rd edition) by Winston and Horn. I've finished the first 18 Chapters, and now most of it seems about applications
2014-04-09T22:14:02Z afleck: Can I move on to a more complex book?
2014-04-09T22:14:13Z dim: what about writing code instead?
2014-04-09T22:14:31Z dim: get your feet wet, etc
2014-04-09T22:14:35Z dim: anyway, gn everybody
2014-04-09T22:14:58Z nyef: afleck: I don't believe I have that edition, but you're not allowed to stop reading it until you've read the chapter on "lisp in lisp" or whatever it's called.
2014-04-09T22:15:14Z afleck: nyef: Yeah, I just finished that chapter
2014-04-09T22:15:38Z nyef: In that case, you're good for now. Write some code, find another book to read, find an existing project to hack on.
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2014-04-09T22:16:17Z afleck: Okay. I'm having trouble finding a project that fits my ability level
2014-04-09T22:16:28Z jasom: One of these days I'm going to read a book on lisp
2014-04-09T22:16:30Z afleck: I have almost 0 formal computer science training
2014-04-09T22:16:54Z oGMo: afleck: write something you want or need, it's the only way
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2014-04-09T22:17:18Z jasom: afleck: write some code, in 2 years you will cringe looking at it (or at least if you don't cringe at the code you wrote 2 years ago, you've stopped learning)
2014-04-09T22:17:19Z oGMo: even if you never get there, you have the motivation to go
2014-04-09T22:17:23Z nyef: My first successful lisp project was a disassembler for some oddball CPU architecture.
2014-04-09T22:17:40Z oGMo: jasom: 2 years, 2 months, 2 weeks .. ;)
2014-04-09T22:18:01Z nyef: Just a small investigative tool, written in a rather exploratory style, but it was the thin end of the wedge.
2014-04-09T22:18:30Z jasom: I've always had more success fixing bugs and adding features to other-people's code, but from talking to other developers that's atypical
2014-04-09T22:18:31Z afleck: nyef: better than anything I can come up with
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2014-04-09T22:18:56Z jasom: afleck: I guess if there's no program you want to write, you don't need to learn to program?
2014-04-09T22:19:43Z nyef: jasom: Honestly, that sounds pretty typical to me. If I start a program from scratch, I start from "hello world" and debug it from there.
2014-04-09T22:19:44Z afleck: jasom: never though about it that way.
2014-04-09T22:20:04Z jasom: afleck: there's things like project euler where you can do exercises
2014-04-09T22:20:13Z jasom: though IIRC you need a mathy background for a lot of those
2014-04-09T22:21:03Z jasom: My most polished lisp program was a character generation tool for a pencil-and-paper RPG; when the gaming group broke up, I stopped working on it though.
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2014-04-09T22:24:47Z jasom: I ended up getting involved in a medium-ish OSS project (not lisp) just because it crashed, and I fired up gdb to fix the problem.  That's now the project I've been continuously involved the longest in.
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2014-04-09T22:25:25Z jasom: but in both cases it was "I want the computer to do X, and it's not"
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2014-04-09T22:32:43Z nydel: why can't i figure out how to take a list of words (strings) and concatenate them with a space between each. in one line
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2014-04-09T22:37:48Z jasom: nydel: (format nil "~{~A~^ ~}" list)
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2014-04-09T22:38:20Z jasom: nydel: I wrote that from memory, so you might want to double-check it though
2014-04-09T22:38:51Z _death: it's ok
2014-04-09T22:38:54Z nydel: formattttt
2014-04-09T22:39:01Z nydel: sheesh, i've been writing to long
2014-04-09T22:39:06Z nydel: look at this for a laugh
2014-04-09T22:39:22Z nydel: (apply #'concatenate 'string (append (mapcar (lambda (y) (concatenate 'string y " ")) (subseq x 0 (1- (length x)))) (last x)))
2014-04-09T22:39:23Z jasom: A quick breakdown: "~{" iterate over a list; "~A" will print a string "~^" exit iteration if we have hit the last item " " a space "~}" end iteration
2014-04-09T22:39:25Z nydel: x was the list of words
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2014-04-09T22:40:32Z nydel: thanks jasom
2014-04-09T22:40:42Z Denommus: (defun join (list separator) (format nil (concat "~{~A^" separator "~}") list)
2014-04-09T22:40:53Z _death: (outs (:s words :separator #\Space))
2014-04-09T22:41:57Z jasom: (with-output-to-string (s) (loop for (word . rest) on words (write-sequence word s) when rest (write-char #\Space s))
2014-04-09T22:42:10Z jasom: I think that's how I did it befofe I thought of format
2014-04-09T22:42:25Z antoszka: Denommus: missed the tilde before the caret
2014-04-09T22:42:30Z antoszka: butyeah
2014-04-09T22:42:57Z jasom: Denommus: some implementations have poor performance on dynamically generated format strings
2014-04-09T22:43:12Z jasom: Denommus: you can memoize the formatters though if that's important
2014-04-09T22:44:47Z nydel: at least 8 times of 10 when i'm brain-fried from too much work, & i'm writing really weird long code, i've forgotten that format exists
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2014-04-09T22:46:26Z nydel: i like to write until i'm spent, i think i'll start keeping a log of the line that made me realize i needed a break :) could be a funny collection
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2014-04-09T22:56:42Z francogrex: ok
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2014-04-09T23:00:28Z pillton: nydel: I only just logged in, there is the system basic-binary-ipc that provides a non-blocking I/O interface to sockets. You can use this to do build either synchronous or asynchronous/event driven I/O programs.
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2014-04-09T23:08:56Z rpg_: Configuring new linux box to test ASDF.  Anyone know if I use the ubuntu clisp package, will I get Common Lisp Controller (which I hate)?
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2014-04-09T23:10:14Z H4ns: rpg_: i've just tried it, does not seem like it (12.04 lts)
2014-04-09T23:10:20Z jasom: rpg_: you won't
2014-04-09T23:10:22Z rpg_: Thanks!
2014-04-09T23:10:26Z rpg_: whew!
2014-04-09T23:10:47Z jasom: c-l-c is in the repo, but not pulled in automatically by any lisp implementation I tested
2014-04-09T23:11:28Z jasom: pillton: there are also some libevent wrappers and iolib provides non-blocking sockets on *nix
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2014-04-09T23:11:59Z pillton: jasom: basic-binary-ipc doesn't require any third party libraries.
2014-04-09T23:12:53Z jasom: pillton: cffi?
2014-04-09T23:13:02Z pillton: jasom: Touche. C libraries.
2014-04-09T23:14:08Z pillton: jasom: It doesn't impose an event loop on you, giving you more freedom.
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2014-04-09T23:17:13Z nydel: this is great pillton, good documentation too. thank you
2014-04-09T23:18:37Z jasom: overlapped IO support is impressive too
2014-04-09T23:18:51Z nydel: local namespaces, fun
2014-04-09T23:18:59Z jasom: someone was way more interested in shaving yaks than myself
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2014-04-09T23:20:51Z Xach likes the sound of it also
2014-04-09T23:21:45Z jasom: Add in this: https://github.com/deliciousrobots/green-threads and you've got a complete libtask like library
2014-04-09T23:23:00Z pillton: The overlapped I/O stuff took forever.
2014-04-09T23:23:17Z jasom: Which is why nobody else has done it.  My hat's off to you, sir!
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2014-04-09T23:25:16Z Xach: good on you, friend
2014-04-09T23:25:24Z pillton: Heh good times.
2014-04-09T23:25:32Z pillton: Line 142 of https://github.com/markcox80/basic-binary-ipc/blob/master/src/overlapped-io-cffi.lisp
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2014-04-09T23:26:05Z nydel: haha
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2014-04-09T23:27:35Z nydel: what did FormatMessage do
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2014-04-09T23:30:42Z pillton: Some crazy interface that just retrieves a nice text message about an error.
2014-04-09T23:31:11Z nydel: oo a qt controller for cl, i've had no luck with others so far
2014-04-09T23:31:21Z pillton: nydel: Don't use that.
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2014-04-09T23:31:32Z pillton: nydel: I should take that down.
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2014-04-09T23:32:44Z pillton: nydel: Use CommonQt instead. It is great.
2014-04-09T23:33:13Z nydel: ok. my hopes weren't up, i expect to be stuck with tcl/tk & mcclim if i want to do gui
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2014-04-09T23:33:43Z nydel: really, commonqt? will that do okay with slime
2014-04-09T23:34:17Z pillton: No not really. I have been meaning to task stassats about that.
2014-04-09T23:34:29Z pillton: ask.. not task.
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2014-04-09T23:34:50Z pillton: This is the problem with event loops.
2014-04-09T23:35:01Z pillton: How do you have two?
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2014-04-09T23:35:28Z nydel: two completely parallel event handlers?
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2014-04-09T23:35:56Z pillton: yeah.
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2014-04-09T23:41:05Z jasom: two threads
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2014-04-09T23:41:57Z pillton: Unsatisfactory in my opinion.
2014-04-09T23:42:02Z nydel: two computers
2014-04-09T23:42:03Z jasom: I agree
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2014-04-09T23:43:16Z jasom: You make each poll call signal on one side of a socketpair() and then have an uber poll that checks the other side of the socketpair for each loop and invokes the corresponding loop
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2014-04-09T23:44:03Z pillton: Yeah. That is why the multiplexing I/O (polling) interface is so cool.
2014-04-09T23:44:09Z nydel: that sounds very zen
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2014-04-09T23:44:26Z pillton: I will let you inform Apple, GTK and the Qt developers.
2014-04-09T23:45:18Z jasom: IIRC GTK does let you invoke the event loop for one iteration manually, so that should be doable
2014-04-09T23:45:32Z jasom: Well it did in the 1.2 days anyway
2014-04-09T23:45:40Z jasom: (I haven't used GTK for a while)
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2014-04-09T23:45:58Z pillton: Invoking the iteration is only part of it. You need the ability to be woken up when something important occurs.
2014-04-09T23:47:16Z nydel: likely to go down a rabbit hole of stacked iteration trying to make that happen
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2014-04-09T23:55:26Z afleck: why does make-array throw an error when I try to do
2014-04-09T23:55:34Z afleck: (make-array ((+ 2 2) 2))
2014-04-09T23:55:37Z afleck: but is fine with
2014-04-09T23:55:45Z afleck: (make-array `(,(+ 2 2) 2))
2014-04-09T23:55:47Z nyef: Because (+ 2 2) is not a function name.
2014-04-09T23:56:13Z afleck: okay so it doesn't evaluate the forms first?
2014-04-09T23:57:16Z nyef: It evaluates the whole form. MAKE-ARRAY is a function, not a macro.
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2014-04-09T23:58:01Z afleck: yeah, so then why does (expt (+ 2 2) 2) work?
2014-04-09T23:58:13Z pillton: Once EVAL determines that MAKE-ARRAY is a function, it then evaluates the expression ((+ 2 2) 2).
2014-04-09T23:58:59Z afleck: pillton: that makes sense, thank you
2014-04-09T23:59:26Z afleck: is the neatest way to accomplish what I want (make-array `(,(+ 2 2) 2))?
2014-04-10T00:00:46Z pillton: Yeah. That is equivalent to (list (+ 2 2) 2).
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2014-04-10T00:03:53Z pillton: afleck: I used the wrong word before. I should have said form, rather than expression.
2014-04-10T00:04:06Z pillton: afleck: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_ab.htm
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2014-04-10T00:05:09Z pillton: afleck: It is a great section.
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2014-04-10T00:44:27Z jasom: afleck: (expt (+ 2 2) 2) works but (expt ((+ 2 2) 2)) obviously won't
2014-04-10T00:47:55Z afleck: jasom: well yeah, but that's because expt takes two args. (expt `(,(+ 2 2) 2)) also doesn't work
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2014-04-10T00:49:21Z jasom: okay then more simply ((+ 2 2) 2) doesn't work
2014-04-10T00:49:40Z afleck: I just find it weird that when a function is called on a list of arguments the list of arugments isn't EVAL'd first
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2014-04-10T00:50:10Z afleck: or maybe why make-array takes a single list rather than multiple arguments
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2014-04-10T00:51:18Z afleck: in my first statment i meant to say with a list as an argument, the list isn't evald first
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2014-04-10T00:51:59Z Zhivago: Do you mean (apply #'expt `(,(+ 2 2) 2))?
2014-04-10T00:52:38Z jasom: afleck: when a function is called on a list of arguments the list of arguments *is* eval'd first
2014-04-10T00:52:48Z jasom: The list is eval'd first
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2014-04-10T00:53:02Z jasom: (eval '((+ 2 2) 2)) will be anerror
2014-04-10T00:53:11Z afleck: jasom: yeah I guess you're right
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2014-04-10T00:53:41Z afleck: do you know the reason why make-array takes a single list of dimensions rather than multiple args?
2014-04-10T00:54:15Z jasom: it may be historic, but it also can save an apply
2014-04-10T00:54:41Z jasom: also multiple args plus keyword args gets ... interesting ...
2014-04-10T00:54:51Z Xach: afleck: I don't know the answer, but it would make it hard to do what jasom just wrote.
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2014-04-10T00:55:56Z jasom: And for the common-case of vectors, the syntax is identical
2014-04-10T00:56:15Z jasom: e.g. (make-array 5)
2014-04-10T00:56:37Z afleck: jasom: ah alright that makes sense
2014-04-10T00:58:43Z jasom: Is it legal for (upgraded-array-element-type nil) => CHARACTER
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2014-04-10T00:59:20Z Xach: I think that it's not only legal, but mandatory, if my recollection of the element type wars of ought five are correct.
2014-04-10T00:59:41Z Bike: there's the thing where subtypes of BIT have to do u-a-e-t shit like CHARACTER, i think
2014-04-10T00:59:44Z Xach: Actually, scratch that. I don't remember any of the details.
2014-04-10T00:59:45Z jasom: It's not mandatory, you can specialize arrays on nil, but if you do so, such an array is string
2014-04-10T01:00:59Z jasom: Bike: I do'nt think subtypes of bit have to do UAET stuff
2014-04-10T01:01:12Z Bike: "If typespec is bit, the result is type equivalent to bit. If typespec is base-char, the result is type equivalent to base-char. If typespec is character, the result is type equivalent to character. "
2014-04-10T01:01:17Z Bike: and then the "up the lattice" crapola.
2014-04-10T01:01:40Z jasom: where is the lattice stuff?
2014-04-10T01:02:00Z Bike: clhs 15.1.2.1
2014-04-10T01:02:00Z specbot: Array Upgrading: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/15_aba.htm
2014-04-10T01:02:20Z Bike: this is more proof of a loving god than it is practical programming, though
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2014-04-10T01:04:21Z jasom: oh crap, it's illegal since if a type Tx is a subtype of another type Ty, then the upgraded array element type of Tx must be a subtype of the upgraded array element type of Ty.
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2014-04-10T01:04:40Z Bike: right
2014-04-10T01:04:47Z Bike: the satanic verse, as it were
2014-04-10T01:05:15Z jasom: That, combined with the rules on character and bit mean that you must specialize arrays on nil
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2014-04-10T01:12:16Z jasom: "There is no specified way to create an array that is not a simple array." I think that sentence should read "There is no specified way to create an array that is a simple array."
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2014-04-10T01:13:54Z Bike: I think it might not be guaranteed that (make-array 5) isn't simple?
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2014-04-10T01:15:22Z axion: i heard hunchentoot is not very performant. if i were to write a webapp that needs to support several hundred of connections, what are my options?
2014-04-10T01:16:26Z nyef: Simultaneous connections? One basic option would be to use hunchentoot, a thread pool, and multiple processes.
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2014-04-10T01:17:49Z pillton: http://john.freml.in/teepeedee2-c10k
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2014-04-10T01:18:14Z antonv: good news: at least some of Clojure tools are less mature than CL's
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2014-04-10T01:18:57Z jasom: Bike: but making an array with a fill-pointer is guaranteed to create an array that is not simple
2014-04-10T01:19:13Z Bike: oh, i see what you mean, yes
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2014-04-10T01:19:45Z jasom: axion: mongrel2 plus lisp works well.  Hunchentoot is good enough for several hundred connections though.
2014-04-10T01:20:18Z jasom: Several hundred connections is not a lot.
2014-04-10T01:20:26Z axion: well i am looking to create a webapp that needs to scale well and could be used by thousands simultaneously
2014-04-10T01:20:45Z zRecursive: axion: maybe erlang
2014-04-10T01:20:50Z jasom: see, thousands of connections it starts to matter; hundreds not at all.
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2014-04-10T01:22:21Z axion: how would i integrate a lisp backend without a webserver into nginx efficiently?
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2014-04-10T01:22:43Z jasom: axion: fastcgi maybe?
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2014-04-10T01:26:51Z axion: thansk for the input. i have a team looking to rewrite a popular web service in lisp
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2014-04-10T01:27:21Z Zhivago: I'd put a webserver in the lisp backend.
2014-04-10T01:27:37Z Zhivago: Then use nginx as a transparent cache.
2014-04-10T01:27:44Z jasom: teepeedee2 is performant; hu.dwim is worth looking into as well
2014-04-10T01:28:08Z jasom: and mongrel2+lisp works well, though the documentation is a bit underwhelming
2014-04-10T01:28:11Z Zhivago: Then the lisp webserver only needs to handle the interesting requests.
2014-04-10T01:28:47Z Zhivago: Which makes performance much less of an issue -- all static content is handled elsewhere.
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2014-04-10T01:29:02Z Zhivago: And all semi-static content is only regenerated when the cache expires.
2014-04-10T01:29:40Z jasom: Zhivago: if you have logins then you run into the cookie issue
2014-04-10T01:30:04Z axion: this is going to have lots of db interaction. the biggest bottleneck is going to be the transaction queue
2014-04-10T01:30:21Z Zhivago: The cookie issue isn't special.
2014-04-10T01:30:40Z jasom: Zhivago: it means that 2 different users will never generate the same http request
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2014-04-10T01:30:52Z Zhivago: They don't need to generate the same request.
2014-04-10T01:31:16Z Zhivago: There are plenty of pages for which you don't give a damn about the cookie, and nginx is clever enough to be able to cache those as well.
2014-04-10T01:31:44Z jasom: Zhivago: how do you signal nginx about that?  Also the majority of pages you do if you require a login to use the site (i.e. you need to at least check that the cookie is a valid session)
2014-04-10T01:31:44Z Zhivago: And for the ones where you do, you can cache that page for that user, if appropriate.
2014-04-10T01:32:12Z Zhivago: Let's consider the simplest case -- a static image file.
2014-04-10T01:32:26Z jasom: Zhivago: a static image file that should only be served to users that have logged in
2014-04-10T01:33:05Z Zhivago: Sure, and nginx can handle that, because it understands cookies.
2014-04-10T01:33:13Z jasom: oh, well that's nice
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2014-04-10T01:33:38Z jasom: You can let nginx do session management for you, while it's acting as a proxy?
2014-04-10T01:33:43Z Zhivago: http://nginx.org/en/docs/http/ngx_http_userid_module.html
2014-04-10T01:33:55Z Zhivago: I think so, although to be honest, I haven't tried.
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2014-04-10T01:34:46Z Zhivago: Then you can just write a simple and low performance web server to talk to your database.
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2014-04-10T01:43:18Z gendl: Hi, do CLOS object instances have any kind of built-in standard unique ID?
2014-04-10T01:43:46Z Zhivago: Well, there's whatever EQL uses.
2014-04-10T01:43:58Z Zhivago: But I assume you mean something exposed.
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2014-04-10T01:45:53Z gendl: yes I think that's what I'm being asked. It seems to me the instance itself can be used as its own Unique ID
2014-04-10T01:45:59Z gendl: i mean you can use it as the key in a hash table, etc.
2014-04-10T01:46:15Z gendl: i confess i'm bringing this question here for someone else
2014-04-10T01:46:42Z pillton: gendl: (make-hash-table :test 'eq)
2014-04-10T01:47:01Z Zhivago: Yes, although you may find that it isn't sufficient for serialization.
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2014-04-10T01:54:27Z gendl: Zhivago, pillion: thanks.
2014-04-10T01:54:37Z gendl: pillton: thanks
2014-04-10T01:55:00Z pillton: gendl: No problem.
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2014-04-10T02:09:44Z zenyfish`: G
2014-04-10T02:11:17Z zenyfish`: this G happens when i try to open a link in the channel "in a new tab" like in emacs-w3m , so if you ever see it again just ignore it
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2014-04-10T02:15:39Z nyef: Or, we could bug you to track down why it occurs and fix it.
2014-04-10T02:15:53Z nyef: Consider it good practice. d-:
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2014-04-10T02:19:24Z zenyfish`: i think i will solve it by using the same shortcut in org-mode , emacs-w3m and erc
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2014-04-10T03:58:30Z william_cushing: So, ' is a reader macro that expands in a special way: 'x -> (quote x).  What about `?  In SBCL, it doesn't seem that I can type something long-winded like (quasiquote (+ (unquote-splicing args))).  Anyone know how ` is implemented in common lisp(s)?
2014-04-10T04:00:26Z Bike: unlike scheme, there's no proscribed macro or special form for quasiquote.
2014-04-10T04:00:48Z Bike: it's implementation dependent. sbcl expands it into synonyms of append, cons, and so on, so it can print it back out prettily. ccl just uses those functions.
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2014-04-10T04:13:30Z william_cushing: thanks :)
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2014-04-10T04:58:27Z derek_c: can you load a file from interactive mode?
2014-04-10T04:58:33Z derek_c: I'm talking about sbcl
2014-04-10T04:59:20Z DataLinkDroid: (load "myfile.lisp")
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2014-04-10T05:14:34Z derek_c: DataLinkDroid: thanks!
2014-04-10T05:14:57Z derek_c: how to make a list of n given elements, say 0s?
2014-04-10T05:15:33Z Bike: (make-list n :initial-element 0)
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2014-04-10T05:19:00Z DataLinkDroid: (loop for n from 1 to 10 collect 0) if you like loop :)
2014-04-10T05:19:17Z derek_c: Bike: thanks. I'm curious how such a function is implemented.  When you guys want to see the source code of a given built-in function or macro, what do you do? just grep sbcl?
2014-04-10T05:19:30Z Bike: derek_c: M-. in slime jumps right to the source.
2014-04-10T05:20:14Z Bike: if you're using sbcl i feel i should warn you that a lot of its sequence function definitions are a bit hard to understand. probably not make-list, though.
2014-04-10T05:20:52Z derek_c: hmm not using slime
2014-04-10T05:22:31Z Bike: grep it is, then. You're missing out.
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2014-04-10T05:25:18Z tomterl: I'm using slime, but M-. just opens an empty buffer (list.lisp) - do I need to set something up swank-side? Or do I build my packages errornous? (sbcl also)
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2014-04-10T05:32:30Z zenyfish`: tomterl: you are running sbcl on ? linux?
2014-04-10T05:33:31Z zenyfish`: tomterl: if so first install sbcl-source if you didn't.than find path to source files.
2014-04-10T05:34:14Z zenyfish`: in repl (sb-ext:set-sbcl-source-location "/path/to/sbcl-source/") <-- evaluate this
2014-04-10T05:34:47Z zenyfish`: and then put that in your ~/.sbclrc file
2014-04-10T05:35:37Z tomterl: zenyfish`: thanks!
2014-04-10T05:35:51Z zenyfish`: tomterl: you are welcome
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2014-04-10T05:38:43Z tomterl: works now - love it
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2014-04-10T05:55:05Z slyrus: hrm.... anyone actually have common-qt working on macos/sbcl?
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2014-04-10T06:51:30Z axion: is there a nice way to modify nested plists. (setf (getf (getf (getf ...))) isnt so nice. neither is trying to wrap inners in a function as setf is a macro...what is a good solution?
2014-04-10T06:51:49Z pjb: write your own accessors.
2014-04-10T06:52:07Z axion: hmm example?
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2014-04-10T06:52:31Z pjb: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/comp.lang.lisp/uc9fLw7i0Fo/HDoDDhx3DRkJ
2014-04-10T06:52:35Z pjb: read cll!
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2014-04-10T08:10:10Z evinay: hello all
2014-04-10T08:10:55Z splittist: hello evinay
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2014-04-10T08:12:33Z zRecursive: bye
2014-04-10T08:12:51Z splittist: I feel so used
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2014-04-10T08:13:31Z Krystof: spouting meaningless greetings all day long.  Ever thought you could be replaced by a small lisp program?
2014-04-10T08:13:50Z Krystof: (case (random 3) (0 "Hello") (1 "Goodbye") (2 "Where's the tea?"))
2014-04-10T08:15:08Z zRecursive: Krystof: but there is no bot here to eval your CL snippet :)
2014-04-10T08:15:38Z zRecursive: #scheme has rudybot though
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2014-04-10T08:18:31Z pjb: You could write your own bot, but greating bots are frowned upon very much here!
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2014-04-10T08:20:00Z p_l: though if it responded back only through NOTICE to sender... and wasn't abused (something to draw CONS cell structures?)
2014-04-10T08:20:21Z splittist: a lint-bot that reformatted pastes appropriately might be a nice exercise (:
2014-04-10T08:21:19Z p_l: also integrated lisp-tutor or whatever the program that checked for possible issues was called
2014-04-10T08:23:29Z zRecursive: Is ccl really open source ?  It seems its kernel only provides binary.
2014-04-10T08:23:45Z pjb: It provides its sources, and a function to recompile them.
2014-04-10T08:23:59Z pjb: Since ccl is written in ccl, you need a ccl binary to be able to recompile it!
2014-04-10T08:24:08Z pjb: Just like to compile gcc, you need a gcc binary.
2014-04-10T08:24:33Z pjb: zRecursive: now, go read about trusting trust. http://cm.bell-labs.com/who/ken/trust.html‎
2014-04-10T08:24:33Z pjb:  
2014-04-10T08:25:09Z Cymew: Compare this to sbcl, which never is considered closed
2014-04-10T08:25:41Z pjb:  They spent a lot of time to make it compilable by other CL implementations.
2014-04-10T08:26:32Z p_l: zRecursive: ${CCL_SOURCES}/lisp-kernel :)
2014-04-10T08:27:23Z zRecursive: pjb: but after `svn`, the fx86cl can be direcly used on freebsd box, i never rebuild it
2014-04-10T08:27:43Z pjb: I always rebuild it.  But read about trusting trust :-)
2014-04-10T08:28:09Z pjb: ie: https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2006/01/countering_trus.html
2014-04-10T08:28:10Z zRecursive: ok
2014-04-10T08:28:25Z dkcl: zRecursive: I recently built SBCL --with-thread from source under FreeBSD, so it shouldn't pose a problem
2014-04-10T08:28:35Z z0d: if I have to start over, I download a binary from sbcl.org and compile my SBCL
2014-04-10T08:28:57Z Cymew: Now you can even compile sbcl with clang! :)
2014-04-10T08:29:06Z zRecursive: yeah
2014-04-10T08:29:12Z dkcl generally "git clone https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl"s and builds it with whatever is in the package manager.
2014-04-10T08:29:33Z Cymew compiles sbcl on freebsd once a week
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2014-04-10T08:38:31Z leo2007: is require deprecated?
2014-04-10T08:40:30Z p_l: ... technically yes, but the standard never got updated without it, either
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2014-04-10T08:50:47Z |3b|: leo2007: it isn't specified well enough to be portably useful for more than just loading things included with an implementation
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2014-04-10T08:53:34Z |3b|: so i wouldn't call it 'deprecated', but more 'limited usefulness'
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2014-04-10T09:17:54Z leo2007: p_l and |3b|: thanks
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2014-04-10T09:25:22Z leo2007: Xach: what's the message of this post http://xach.livejournal.com/318385.html
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2014-04-10T09:26:30Z |3b| suspects the message is that there are some 'interesting' people on c.l.l. :p
2014-04-10T09:27:09Z samebchase: psychiatrically interesting
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2014-04-10T09:29:40Z p_l: ...
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2014-04-10T09:31:06Z z0d: Madhu's post is funny
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2014-04-10T09:32:26Z p_l: being myself in low orbit of conspiracy theory shitstorm, I unfortunately can't say I can't imagine this being seriously said
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2014-04-10T09:34:37Z z0d: p_l: you are funny too
2014-04-10T09:34:48Z leo2007: what is considered a module (think *modules)?
2014-04-10T09:34:54Z leo2007: *modules*
2014-04-10T09:35:42Z p_l: z0d: the sentence is weird, but essentially, Poe's Law in action :)
2014-04-10T09:36:25Z z0d: yeah
2014-04-10T09:36:36Z z0d: leo2007: you mean library?
2014-04-10T09:36:40Z |3b|: hmm, i guess REQUIRE is deprecated in the spec, had forgotten about that
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2014-04-10T09:37:01Z z0d: there we go again
2014-04-10T09:37:48Z leo2007: z0d: what is the concept of module? I have 17 entries in *modules*. and (length (list-all-packages)) => 128
2014-04-10T09:38:00Z |3b|: lack of definition of "module" would be included in the "not very well specified" i was talking about though
2014-04-10T09:38:10Z |3b|: "module"
2014-04-10T09:38:24Z |3b|: "module" is whatever REQUIRE loads
2014-04-10T09:39:01Z leo2007: p_l: what does Xach's post imply? I don't know if it is due to different culture what have no idea what it means?
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2014-04-10T09:39:39Z z0d: leo2007: it's a joke
2014-04-10T09:39:54Z leo2007: so is it require deprecated? should we avoid it?
2014-04-10T09:40:18Z leo2007: |3b|: I see. so require and provide manipulate *modules*.
2014-04-10T09:40:25Z |3b|: REQUIRE is deprecated in the spec, you should use it for exactly the case of loading extra things provided by an implementation
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2014-04-10T09:40:36Z p_l: leo2007: essentially it's joking about conspiracy theories spewed about quicklisp
2014-04-10T09:40:37Z z0d: 10:53 <|3b|> so i wouldn't call it 'deprecated', but more 'limited usefulness'
2014-04-10T09:41:00Z |3b|: any other use (like loading 3rd party libraries) relies on unspecified behavior, so we generally use ASDF for that
2014-04-10T09:41:16Z leo2007: |3b|: thanks. that makes sense.
2014-04-10T09:41:17Z |3b|: z0d: right, i'd misremembered, and i retract the "not deprecated" part :)
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2014-04-10T09:42:17Z |3b|: for example in implementations that ship a copy of asdf, (require 'asdf) would be a reasonable thing to do
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2014-04-10T09:43:25Z |3b|: or if they ship extra libraries that aren't loadable with asdf, (require 'foo-cl-extra) or whatever
2014-04-10T09:44:04Z |3b|: if they are loadable with asdf, adding them as a dependency to a .asd file would be a better idea
2014-04-10T09:44:49Z leo2007: do implementations provide something like load-path (as emacs)?
2014-04-10T09:45:12Z |3b|: asdf does, not sure about specific implementations
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2014-04-10T09:49:02Z leo2007: |3b|: thanks for your insights.
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2014-04-10T10:36:56Z Adlai: using lisp can be so frustrating... when your data comes from an app that doesn't do precise math
2014-04-10T10:37:53Z Adlai has to throw out and recalculate half of it >:(
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2014-04-10T11:13:40Z pjb: minion: memo for leo2007: The day before at <08:09:56> <pjb> zRecursive: Why should it provide a load-path when it's trivial to do it:; (dolist (*default-pathname-defaults* *load-path*) (when (ignore-errors (load file)) (return)))
2014-04-10T11:13:40Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell leo2007 when he/she/it next speaks.
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2014-04-10T11:14:03Z pjb: That's the matter with load-path with those newbies?
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2014-04-10T11:56:03Z leo2007: pjb: how is that related?
2014-04-10T11:56:03Z minion: leo2007, memo from pjb: The day before at <08:09:56> <pjb> zRecursive: Why should it provide a load-path when it's trivial to do it:; (dolist (*default-pathname-defaults* *load-path*) (when (ignore-errors (load file)) (return)))
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2014-04-10T11:56:40Z leo2007: I was just curious how require find the code to load.
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2014-04-10T13:55:09Z Sir_herrbatka: hi all
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2014-04-10T13:56:35Z oleo: hello
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2014-04-10T14:40:00Z splittist: What would I do without (inspect *)?
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2014-04-10T14:41:18Z Krystof: implement presentations in your graphical user environment?
2014-04-10T14:41:33Z Xach: splittist: Does that use the built-in inspector? I never got the hang of using that in any implementation I use...
2014-04-10T14:42:17Z Xach wonders about an inspector-hook
2014-04-10T14:42:18Z Krystof: clearly Xach would do C-c I *
2014-04-10T14:42:29Z Xach: That is what I often do, yes
2014-04-10T14:42:38Z Krystof: I just spent two 30-minute train rides looking at slime's presentations
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2014-04-10T14:43:09Z Krystof: there's more work to do to make them truly lovely
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2014-04-10T14:43:22Z Krystof: sadly I now have to write a report on a 100-page document
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2014-04-10T14:45:29Z splittist: "This document has approximately 100 pages and weighs several grams. Ink markings resembling letters appear on many of the pages. Slightly foxed."
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2014-04-10T14:45:55Z splittist: Xach: my needs are modest.
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2014-04-10T15:37:13Z Sir_herrbatka: uh
2014-04-10T15:37:20Z Sir_herrbatka: i have a stupid question
2014-04-10T15:37:45Z Sir_herrbatka: what should i do if i want to call two functions in the conditional statement?
2014-04-10T15:37:54Z dlowe: Sir_herrbatka: You should usually use COND
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2014-04-10T15:38:16Z dlowe: Sir_herrbatka: which allows you to have multiple forms after a condition
2014-04-10T15:38:25Z Sir_herrbatka: since (if (foo whatever) ((bar whatever) (baz whatever)))
2014-04-10T15:38:32Z H4ns: unless there is no else clause, use either WHEN or UNLESS in that case.
2014-04-10T15:38:41Z Sir_herrbatka: obviously won't work
2014-04-10T15:38:44Z dlowe: Sir_herrbatka: however, PROGN will allow you to execute multiple forms and return the result of the last form
2014-04-10T15:38:50Z H4ns: (when (foo whatever) (bar whatever) (baz whatever))
2014-04-10T15:38:56Z dlowe: and what H4ns said
2014-04-10T15:39:12Z H4ns: PROGN should only be used in macro expansions, in geenral.
2014-04-10T15:39:28Z Sir_herrbatka: H4ns: let me check docs so i will know what does it do
2014-04-10T15:39:29Z H4ns: don't write (if foo (progn (bar) (baz)))
2014-04-10T15:39:55Z Sir_herrbatka: i love lisp describe
2014-04-10T15:39:57Z Sir_herrbatka: btw
2014-04-10T15:40:10Z dlowe: H4ns: I use it for handler-case and unwind-protect
2014-04-10T15:40:26Z H4ns: dlowe: yeah.  "in general" :)
2014-04-10T15:40:33Z Sir_herrbatka: hm
2014-04-10T15:40:42Z Sir_herrbatka: ok interesting!
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2014-04-10T15:44:12Z Sir_herrbatka: H4ns: ok this seems to work
2014-04-10T15:44:50Z H4ns: Sir_herrbatka: i don't know what "this" and "work" really means, but i
2014-04-10T15:44:53Z H4ns: 'm glad anyway :)
2014-04-10T15:45:06Z Sir_herrbatka: well i understand what it does
2014-04-10T15:45:26Z Sir_herrbatka: but what do you do if you simply want two functions?
2014-04-10T15:45:33Z Sir_herrbatka: (when t…)
2014-04-10T15:45:39Z Sir_herrbatka: something like this?
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2014-04-10T15:45:59Z H4ns: many forms have an implicit progn
2014-04-10T15:46:21Z H4ns: so, for example, (dolist (x the-list) (do-something x) (do-something-else))
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2014-04-10T15:46:40Z Sir_herrbatka: ok
2014-04-10T15:46:56Z H4ns: but i'd recommend that you read a book on lisp.  this is all very basic and should be covered in any decent introduction.
2014-04-10T15:47:10Z Sir_herrbatka: yeah, i'm reading
2014-04-10T15:47:31Z Sir_herrbatka: but i play with the lisp in the meantime
2014-04-10T15:47:48Z antoszka: Sir_herrbatka: Also, feel free to join #lisp-pl.
2014-04-10T15:48:01Z Sir_herrbatka: antoszka: ooooooooh nice
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2014-04-10T15:58:54Z Shinmera: H4ns: Regarding your discouragement of progn: What if you need to do multiple things for each branch of the if? Should one use cond for that? (though that looks rather silly imo)
2014-04-10T15:59:19Z H4ns: Shinmera: yes, cond is the tool of choice.
2014-04-10T15:59:30Z H4ns: Shinmera: if + progn is cluttered and noisy
2014-04-10T16:00:09Z Shinmera: H4ns: I agree that it's noisy, but I don't like the idea of cond for basically only one clause and an else.
2014-04-10T16:01:00Z H4ns: Shinmera: you're entitled to your opinion, of course.  if i see if+progn, i sense bad taste and find it hard to read.
2014-04-10T16:01:00Z nyef: There's a definite difference in semantic processing for (if <condition> (progn ...) ...) and (cond ((<condition> ...) (t ...)).
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2014-04-10T16:02:00Z nyef: COND somewhat says "I have a few cases to check" while IF says "either X or not-X".
2014-04-10T16:02:17Z Shinmera: Yeah, that's my issue with using cond instead of if.
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2014-04-10T16:02:32Z nyef: Same logic for the use of WHEN or UNLESS instead of IF when you only have a consequent and not an alternative.
2014-04-10T16:03:38Z H4ns: it is certainly a matter of taste.
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2014-04-10T16:04:18Z H4ns: and, as usual in the lisp "community", for every strong opinion there is somebody there to take a stand on the completely opposing opinion.
2014-04-10T16:04:56Z Shinmera: I wouldn't classify this issue as having strong opinions...
2014-04-10T16:05:49Z H4ns: if i review your code and see (if .. (progn, i'm going to ask you to change that to a cond.  :D
2014-04-10T16:06:03Z antoszka: Also, when has an implicit PROGN, so that'd be the cleanest for the use-case.
2014-04-10T16:06:38Z H4ns: but no else clause.
2014-04-10T16:07:13Z antoszka: Sure.
2014-04-10T16:07:38Z Shinmera: Clearly we should add a macro that uses braces to solve this quarrel.
2014-04-10T16:08:09Z dim: C-x C-r c runs the command redshank-condify-form
2014-04-10T16:08:16Z splittist: that way lies IF*
2014-04-10T16:08:22Z dim: it's not even hard to turn if into cond, it's a shortcut away
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2014-04-10T16:29:31Z jasom: dim: How do you like redshank?
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2014-04-10T16:32:20Z dim: I like it very much ;-)
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2014-04-10T16:32:53Z dim: I don't use it quite often, but when I do it's good help
2014-04-10T16:34:07Z splittist: is it elpa-ble? (or whatever the sub-quicklisp emacs uses is)
2014-04-10T16:34:21Z jasom: Just looking at the demo screencast, it doesn't look useful for me.  I don't think I've ever said "If only I could type C-x C-r C instead of (defclass foo ()
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2014-04-10T16:34:44Z jasom: er (defclass foo ( even, since we're talking paredit
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2014-04-10T16:41:50Z ck_: The refactoring-stuff inside redshank is certainly very useful in my opinion. The skeleton-for-class stuff less so, admittedly.
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2014-04-10T17:06:23Z ubikation: is there an easy way to export all of the functions in the file I am working on without having to add each to package.lisp? (I'm using the quickproject program that Xach made)
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2014-04-10T17:07:04Z dkcl: ubikation: http://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf/
2014-04-10T17:07:12Z dkcl: ubikation: It comes with most CL implementations
2014-04-10T17:09:50Z eudoxia: ubikation: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9743056/common-lisp-exporting-symbols-from-packages
2014-04-10T17:10:39Z ubikation: would I put (let ((pack (find-package :foo)))
2014-04-10T17:10:39Z ubikation:   (do-all-symbols (sym pack) (when (eql (symbol-package sym) pack) (export sym)))) in package.lisp?
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2014-04-10T17:11:36Z nyef: ubikation: I wouldn't. That's actually a fairly frightening piece of code.
2014-04-10T17:11:48Z eudoxia: i would bite the bullet and export them by hand
2014-04-10T17:11:52Z eudoxia: really they can't possibly be so many
2014-04-10T17:12:16Z nyef: There can be quite a few, the question is why you would want what amounts to an uncontrolled export list.
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2014-04-10T17:25:54Z jasom: nyef: I could see the advantage of having a private.lisp and public.lisp in your system, and export all defuns and defparameters in it
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2014-04-10T17:26:25Z jasom: s/it/public.lisp
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2014-04-10T17:26:46Z nyef: Still seems scattershot to me.
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2014-04-10T17:29:56Z nyef: jasom: While I have you here, do you remember that SBCL bug from Tuesday? (At least, I think it was Tuesday...)
2014-04-10T17:30:06Z jasom: nyef: yup
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2014-04-10T17:30:19Z nyef: I'm planning to commit a fix tonight.
2014-04-10T17:30:23Z jasom: nice
2014-04-10T17:30:48Z nyef: Thought you'd appreciate that.
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2014-04-10T17:33:02Z jasom: ubikation: you can probably make a macro that defines a function and then exports it with an (eval-when)
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2014-04-10T17:33:44Z nyef: There's no "probably" about it, such a macro is not at all unheard-of. I believe that SB-POSIX has something in that direction, for example.
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2014-04-10T17:59:11Z fortitude: ubikation: cl-annot has an annotation to export functions, which might be convenient
2014-04-10T17:59:40Z fortitude: you could also generate a list of all your symbols at the repl and paste it in (not very elegant, but at least you have the chance to look it over and it's not going to change behind your back)
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2014-04-10T18:46:03Z slyrus: luis: around?
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2014-04-10T19:12:57Z fe[nl]ix changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programminglanguage <http://paste.lisp.org/new>.|Contact op if you can't speak| New: cl-launch 4.0.3, drakma 1.3.8,  cl-ppcre 2.0.7, hunchentoot  1.2.26, flexi-streams 1.0.10
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2014-04-10T19:13:39Z H4ns: fe[nl]ix: "programminglanguage"
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2014-04-10T19:14:42Z dinosaurs: hey I am dinosaurs from efnet's #windows
2014-04-10T19:15:03Z dinosaurs: i have a question about making lisp programs compatible for windows 8
2014-04-10T19:15:11Z dinosaurs: somebody came in asking us for advice on removing this run error
2014-04-10T19:15:13Z dinosaurs: any idea?
2014-04-10T19:15:14Z dinosaurs: http://imgur.com/feq03xk
2014-04-10T19:15:40Z H4ns: can someone?
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2014-04-10T19:16:01Z Bike: o no, males. my eyes, sullied forevermore.
2014-04-10T19:16:44Z dinosaurs: i hope you were at work
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2014-04-10T19:18:15Z fe[nl]ix: oops
2014-04-10T19:18:17Z ChanServ has set mode +o fe[nl]ix
2014-04-10T19:18:24Z fe[nl]ix changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language <http://paste.lisp.org/new>.|Contact op if you can't speak| New: cl-launch 4.0.3, drakma 1.3.8,  cl-ppcre 2.0.7, hunchentoot  1.2.26, flexi-streams 1.0.10
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2014-04-10T19:19:34Z Bike: that last image is erlang with some porn layered over it, just to be clear
2014-04-10T19:19:55Z jasom: Well it's not lisp with porn layerd over it, so clearly it's OT
2014-04-10T19:20:18Z samebchase: This has bothered me for a long time: What exactly does "#1=(programmable . #1#)" mean?
2014-04-10T19:20:21Z Bike: yeah, terrible
2014-04-10T19:20:28Z Bike: clhs ##
2014-04-10T19:20:28Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhp.htm
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2014-04-10T19:20:52Z samebchase: hm
2014-04-10T19:20:54Z Bike: samebchase: that. or, do (setf *print-circle* t) and then play with it
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2014-04-10T19:21:00Z H4ns: the example is awesome
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2014-04-10T19:21:30Z H4ns: why chose something simple if something contrived can do?
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2014-04-10T19:24:51Z samebchase: okay I'll try it and see if I can figure out what's happening
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2014-04-10T20:18:44Z clintm: How do you go about adding attributes that don't have a value with cl-who? ie. (:button :disabled t) renders as <button disabled="disabled">
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2014-04-10T20:19:30Z jasom: clintm: set mode to :sgml
2014-04-10T20:20:41Z jasom: Or I think :html5 too, let me check
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2014-04-10T20:22:06Z jasom: yeah.  (setf (cl-who:html-mode) :html5) (cl-who:with-html-output-to-string (s) (:button :disabled t))
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2014-04-10T20:22:15Z jasom: "<button disabled='disabled'></button>"
2014-04-10T20:22:53Z Bike: isn't the intended output <button disabled />?
2014-04-10T20:22:56Z jasom:  (setf (cl-who:html-mode) :sgml) (cl-who:with-html-output-to-string (s) (:button :disabled t))"<button disabled></button>"
2014-04-10T20:23:05Z Bike: ok, right
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2014-04-10T20:23:41Z jasom: Bike: in html 4 I think self-closing tags are not supported, but I could be wrong
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2014-04-10T20:24:15Z jasom: Or I should say "theoretically not allowed" since all browsers actually seem to handle it fine
2014-04-10T20:24:17Z someone-noone: hello. In muLisp I have (UNPACK 'abcde) -> (a b c d e). Does clisp have analogue?
2014-04-10T20:25:11Z jasom: someone-noone: (map 'list (symbol-name 'abcde))
2014-04-10T20:25:34Z antoszka: someone-noone: do you mean Common Lisp or clisp (which is one of the numerous implementations of Common Lisp)?
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2014-04-10T20:25:51Z someone-noone: antoszka, I mean clisp
2014-04-10T20:26:05Z someone-noone: jasom: *** - EVAL: too few arguments given to MAP: (MAP 'LIST (SYMBOL-NAME 'ABCDE))
2014-04-10T20:26:23Z antoszka: I don't suppose clisp would have anything in that regard other Common Lisp implementations wouldn't have.
2014-04-10T20:26:34Z nyef: (map 'list #'identity ...), surely?
2014-04-10T20:26:42Z jasom: someone-noone:
2014-04-10T20:26:53Z someone-noone: antoszka, muLisp is smth very old. I don't think that it's a Common Lisp
2014-04-10T20:26:54Z jasom: someone-noone: (map 'list #'identity (symbol-name 'abcde)) rather
2014-04-10T20:26:58Z nyef: Actually, #'intern would probably be more clever.
2014-04-10T20:27:07Z jasom: or #'intern
2014-04-10T20:27:19Z jasom: depending on if you want characters or symbols
2014-04-10T20:27:26Z clintm: thanks, jasom!
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2014-04-10T20:27:33Z Xach: One historical name for that operation is EXPLODE.
2014-04-10T20:27:39Z jasom: or #'string if you want 1 character strings
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2014-04-10T20:27:48Z someone-noone: jasom, it returns: (#\A #\B #\C #\D #\E)
2014-04-10T20:27:55Z someone-noone: not (a b c d e) :(
2014-04-10T20:28:04Z nyef: someone-noone: So use the #'intern version.
2014-04-10T20:28:07Z Xach: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/ai-repository/ai/html/faqs/lang/lisp/part2/faq-doc-3.html
2014-04-10T20:28:12Z jasom: someone-noone: yes #'identity will give you characters #'intern will give you symbols and #'string will give you 1-character strings
2014-04-10T20:28:24Z someone-noone: jasom, thank you!
2014-04-10T20:28:45Z afleck: #'intern gives an error
2014-04-10T20:28:48Z jasom: I'm guessing mulisp doesn't have strings and characters, only symbols?
2014-04-10T20:28:53Z someone-noone: jasom, yes
2014-04-10T20:28:54Z antoszka: intern won't work with CHAR's
2014-04-10T20:28:59Z nyef: Okay, go with the version that Xach posted a link to.
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2014-04-10T20:29:08Z afleck: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/ai-repository/ai/html/faqs/lang/lisp/part2/faq-doc-3.html
2014-04-10T20:29:18Z afleck: oops sorry
2014-04-10T20:29:28Z jasom: (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute)
2014-04-10T20:29:28Z jasom:   (define-foreign-library libfixposix
2014-04-10T20:29:28Z jasom:     (t (:default "libfixposix")))
2014-04-10T20:29:52Z jasom: blargh stupid scroll-wheel clicking when I scroll
2014-04-10T20:30:02Z jasom: (map 'list (lambda (x) (intern (string x))) (symbol-name 'abcde))
2014-04-10T20:30:08Z someone-noone: Xach, thanks! Pergect solution
2014-04-10T20:30:11Z someone-noone: Perfect*
2014-04-10T20:30:40Z someone-noone: guys, for what tasks do you use clisp?
2014-04-10T20:30:43Z jasom: someone-noone: but the more idiomatic way to do things lin lisp is to use strings and characters when you want strings and characters
2014-04-10T20:30:57Z Xach: I use SBCL. I can never get clisp to build any more.
2014-04-10T20:31:07Z Xach: I use SBCL for business and pleasure
2014-04-10T20:31:09Z afleck: I agree, SBCL is quite nice
2014-04-10T20:31:49Z nyef: Mmm. I've always found clisp to be unusable.
2014-04-10T20:31:58Z someone-noone: I mean, what software do you develop with lisp? Perhaps there is a big open-source project written in Lisp?
2014-04-10T20:31:59Z jasom: someone-noone: clisp: a specific piece of software that implements Common Lisp; Common Lisp: The lisp standard that is on topic for this channel
2014-04-10T20:32:45Z jasom: someone-noone: there are lots of big open source projects written in lisp
2014-04-10T20:32:59Z Xach: someone-noone: there's a pretty big variety, in my experience.
2014-04-10T20:33:43Z jasom: someone-noone: here's a single organizations collection of web tools for lisp http://dwim.hu/darcsweb/darcsweb.cgi for one example
2014-04-10T20:34:01Z someone-noone: I'm a postgraduate student and here(Ukraine) we have an old course of Lisp. I tried to make this course more interesting and modern. My students ask me: "Who uses lisp now?". I can't answer them exactly. Can you help?
2014-04-10T20:34:42Z nightfly: all the cool people
2014-04-10T20:34:51Z someone-noone: :)
2014-04-10T20:34:55Z jasom: someone-noone: the best known piece of software using lisp is probably QPX
2014-04-10T20:35:33Z someone-noone: jasom, https://www.itasoftware.com/products/shopping-pricing/qpx.html this one?
2014-04-10T20:35:34Z nyef: Naughty Dog used lisp for quite a few video games, dunno if they still do.
2014-04-10T20:35:47Z jasom: someone-noone: yes
2014-04-10T20:36:06Z someone-noone: thank you!
2014-04-10T20:36:16Z jasom: someone-noone: a list of people using it from wikipedia: Orbitz, Bing Travel, Kayak.com, CheapTickets, and airlines such as American, United Airlines, US Airways, Virgin Atlantic, Alitalia, and ANA.
2014-04-10T20:36:42Z someone-noone: perhaps someone works on Google, facebook here with lisp?
2014-04-10T20:37:02Z someone-noone: jasom, great! Thank you
2014-04-10T20:37:16Z Xach: someone-noone: I work for a lisp consulting company. My experience now is that there are a lot of lisp projects that don't get a lot publicity.
2014-04-10T20:37:16Z jasom: someone-noone: see also http://wiki.alu.org/Success%20Stories
2014-04-10T20:37:51Z jasom: JPL used MCL for a while IIRC too
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2014-04-10T20:38:13Z someone-noone: thanks!
2014-04-10T20:38:26Z H4ns: someone-noone: most lisp projects are relatively small, with only a few programmers.  qpx, qres, siscog are notable exceptions.
2014-04-10T20:39:23Z Vivitron: someone-noone: acl2 is another long lived, interesting project written in lisp
2014-04-10T20:39:45Z jasom: There's an open-source blackboard system written in lisp too, but the name is escaping me
2014-04-10T20:40:19Z axion: how do i construct an alist with loop/collect?
2014-04-10T20:40:44Z jasom: GBB Open <-- thank's google
2014-04-10T20:41:10Z |3b|: axion: (loop collect (cons 1 2))?
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2014-04-10T20:45:18Z axion: thanks
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2014-04-10T20:53:22Z nicdev: someone-noone: if i remember correctly, http://www.novasparks.com/ use CL for their business logic to machine architecture compilers
2014-04-10T20:53:32Z someone-noone: nicdev, thanks!
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2014-04-10T20:54:23Z axion: suggestions, if anyone has any please. http://paste.lisp.org/display/141983
2014-04-10T20:55:30Z axion: took me a long time to parse the near 1MB of json returned. only interested in those few bytes, but seems like i can simplify it somemore
2014-04-10T20:55:37Z jasom: calling cdadar on an alist is not typically a good sign
2014-04-10T20:56:11Z jasom: I would rather write a utility function to do a nested alist lookup
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2014-04-10T20:57:12Z nicdev: axion: i started looking at optima today, i am yet to manage anything with it but i wonder if it might be useful in this situation.
2014-04-10T20:57:16Z jasom: something like (nested-lookup some-alist :foo :bar :baz) which does the equivalent of (cdr (assoc :baz (cdr (assoc :bar) (cdr (assoc :foo)))
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2014-04-10T20:58:14Z axion: problem is its not just an list...sort of a mix between nested lists, and alists at bottom level
2014-04-10T20:58:35Z jasom: optima should be able to handle that
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2014-04-10T20:59:14Z jasom: it would be slightly less fragile, and hopefully more clear what you're doing
2014-04-10T20:59:17Z axion: optima. hmm. a new library. nice
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2014-04-10T21:01:16Z antoszka: axion: i's say you could 'unless (or (foo) (bar))' rather than 'when (not (and (not (foo)) (not (bar)))'
2014-04-10T21:01:25Z antoszka: axion: if i'm not screwing the logic
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2014-04-10T21:01:41Z axion: right good call
2014-04-10T21:01:52Z antoszka: s/i's/i'd/
2014-04-10T21:02:26Z otwieracz: axion: Heh, looks like you are trying to create similar thing I've started some time ago.
2014-04-10T21:02:40Z otwieracz: axion: Let me guess, LTC trader bot?
2014-04-10T21:03:57Z axion: sort of. just trying to collect various exchanges into a database for comparison now
2014-04-10T21:04:15Z antoszka: otwieracz: share your code :)
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2014-04-10T21:05:51Z jasom: axion: (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute)
2014-04-10T21:05:52Z jasom:   (define-foreign-library libfixposix
2014-04-10T21:05:52Z jasom:     (t (:default "libfixposix")))
2014-04-10T21:06:05Z jasom: how does that keep on ending up in my primary selection?
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2014-04-10T21:06:29Z axion: haha
2014-04-10T21:06:37Z jasom: (optima:match (list (acons :foo (list (acons :baz "datum" nil)) nil)) ((list (assoc :foo (list (assoc :baz  x)))) x)) => "datum"
2014-04-10T21:07:04Z axion: interesting
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2014-04-10T21:09:17Z antoszka: axion: i'd also create a lexical let env with (cdr coin) bound to a name rather than calling it 5 times
2014-04-10T21:09:23Z antoszka: but that's just cometics.
2014-04-10T21:09:40Z antoszka: I have to look at that optima thing.
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2014-04-10T21:14:51Z otwieracz: antoszka: Yeah, but it's not on github now.
2014-04-10T21:15:03Z antoszka: whenever
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2014-04-10T21:37:01Z francogrex: isn't this nice: http://paste.lisp.org/display/141984 ?
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2014-04-10T21:39:31Z jasom: francogrex: no
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2014-04-10T21:40:22Z pjb: this is kind of horrible.  Horribly nice if you will.
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2014-04-10T21:43:13Z francogrex: horribly nice! that's ok I can live with that
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2014-04-10T21:45:26Z pjb: for example, it would fail on my raspberry pi, and on my macbook g4.
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2014-04-10T21:46:06Z pjb: If at least you provided a failover lisp implementation with the code to detect when it can work?
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2014-04-10T21:48:05Z jasom: Why not just link in a C compiler?
2014-04-10T21:49:12Z axion: antoszka: how would i do that within a loop?
2014-04-10T21:49:13Z francogrex: it's sbcl x86 testing
2014-04-10T21:49:29Z jasom: axion: for
2014-04-10T21:49:43Z jasom: for ccoin = (cdr coin)
2014-04-10T21:51:25Z axion: aha, i was looking at with
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2014-04-10T21:52:23Z jasom: Think of with as putting the binding outside the iteration and for as putting the binding inside the iteration
2014-04-10T21:52:47Z axion: ok cool
2014-04-10T21:53:03Z francogrex: I wish I could get disassembly of a memory address
2014-04-10T21:53:29Z jasom: francogrex: you can, just write a disassembler
2014-04-10T21:54:03Z francogrex: jasom: yes but I meant with the disassembler already there
2014-04-10T21:54:07Z jasom: there may already be one in sbcl
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2014-04-10T21:54:46Z francogrex: I'm not sure I think in corman lisp one would get the disassembly of a momory location
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2014-04-10T22:02:07Z mood: How would I go about turning an (unsigned-byte 8) that's actually a 2's complement signed byte into its signed version?
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2014-04-10T22:06:38Z antoszka: mood: IIRC the nibbles library might have the functionality
2014-04-10T22:07:06Z antoszka: https://github.com/froydnj/nibbles
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2014-04-10T22:07:47Z mood: antoszka: I'm using nibbles, but it only handles 2 to 8 byte things.
2014-04-10T22:08:13Z antoszka: oh
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2014-04-10T22:09:22Z mood: But I think I have it figured out, by just checking the highest bit and substracting 128 if it's 1. Not entirely sure that's correct though
2014-04-10T22:10:01Z antoszka: Dunno, I never really grokked the internal representations.
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2014-04-10T22:11:14Z mood: Wait, no, I should substract 256
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2014-04-10T23:30:31Z jasom: If highest bit is one, bitwise invert and subtract from -1
2014-04-10T23:31:35Z nyef: That somehow doesn't seem right.
2014-04-10T23:31:53Z nyef: I mean, I've done it before, but ISTR having a better solution at one point.
2014-04-10T23:32:49Z jasom: nyef: that formula is the twos complement formula; you might be able to do something fancy with lognot and friends though
2014-04-10T23:33:13Z nyef: Right, that's sortof where I'm going with this line of thought.
2014-04-10T23:34:53Z jasom: (- 0 (lognot x) 257)
2014-04-10T23:35:00Z jasom: that will also do it I think
2014-04-10T23:35:45Z jasom: (but again, only for negative values)
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2014-04-10T23:36:03Z nyef: Yeah, the trick is to get a version that works for both, without a conditional branch.
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2014-04-10T23:38:17Z nyef: Oh, and your weapon of choice if you're doing the if/logbitp thing is DPB.
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2014-04-10T23:42:39Z Fare: can dpb change the sign of a number?
2014-04-10T23:42:59Z Fare: oh, reverse dpb of the number into -1
2014-04-10T23:43:04Z nyef: No, but you can deposit a bitfield... yeah.
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2014-04-10T23:44:15Z Fare: I'll have to remember that when implementing packing of integers into bytes.
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2014-04-10T23:44:44Z jasom: Is it possible to specify an infinite size byte spec?
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2014-04-10T23:45:08Z jasom: that's the only way I can thing of to use dpb to change the sign
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2014-04-10T23:46:28Z nyef: You can't change the sign of the number being affected, but you can deposit a new chunk into a negative number.
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2014-04-10T23:47:58Z Xach learned about ldb-test this week
2014-04-10T23:48:18Z Xach learned about dpb into -1 from Krystof many years ago
2014-04-10T23:48:44Z nyef: (defun sign-extend-octet (x) (dpb x (byte 8 0) (- (logand #x80 x))))
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2014-04-10T23:49:25Z jasom: (iah, that works
2014-04-10T23:50:20Z nyef: Good thing CL specifies 2s-complement instead of allowing 1s-complement or sign-magnitude, huh?
2014-04-10T23:50:56Z jasom: it's the one place where it's not underspecified!
2014-04-10T23:51:07Z Xach: There is more than one
2014-04-10T23:51:52Z nyef: Heh. True, there's that wonderful but where (ARRAY NIL) is required to exist and be subtypep STRING. (-:
2014-04-10T23:52:24Z nyef: (Okay, yes, I have been mucking in SBCL's type system recently, specifically to do with arrays.)
2014-04-10T23:52:31Z jasom: sbcl compiles that to 5 instructions: MOV RAX, RDX; AND RAX, 256; NEG RAX; AND RAX, -512; OR RDX RAX;
2014-04-10T23:52:41Z Fare: nyef: except that when unpacking, the length isn't 8.
2014-04-10T23:53:41Z jasom: MOVSBL would be better
2014-04-10T23:54:49Z nyef: Fare: It isn't?
2014-04-10T23:56:02Z Fare: (defun sign-extend-byte (x length) (let ((i (1- length))) (if (bitlogp i x) (dpb x (byte i 0) -1) x)))
2014-04-10T23:56:25Z nyef: logbitp, not bitlogp., surely?
2014-04-10T23:57:13Z Fare: yes
2014-04-10T23:57:19Z Fare: I mean, T
2014-04-10T23:57:34Z nyef: And as far as the DPB goes, the low seven bits are the ones we're interested in, but the eighth bit is going to be 0 for a non-negative number and 1 for a negative number anyway, so the extra bit does  no harm.
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2014-04-10T23:57:59Z Fare: indeed
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2014-04-10T23:59:08Z Fare: nyef: in the docs branch of asdf, the manual has a short note on quick-build... you might want to double-check.
2014-04-10T23:59:17Z nyef: URL?
2014-04-11T00:00:21Z zRecursive: clhs dpb
2014-04-11T00:00:21Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_dpb.htm
2014-04-11T00:00:22Z _death: (defun sign-extend-octet (x) (- (logand (+ x #x80) #xFF) #x80))
2014-04-11T00:00:37Z Fare: https://github.com/fare/asdf/blob/docs/doc/asdf.texinfo
2014-04-11T00:00:51Z jasom: (+ 128 (logxor -128 x))
2014-04-11T00:00:55Z jasom: oh, basically the same thing
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2014-04-11T00:02:17Z Fare: I suppose dpb is better for variable length than ash and + / -
2014-04-11T00:03:08Z jasom: Though for what it's worth, my version generates one less instruction
2014-04-11T00:03:28Z axion: how can i convert scientific notation number to its decimal representation, for displaying as a string? i have a list of values that need to be aligned in a graph with 8 decimal digits of precision
2014-04-11T00:03:53Z nyef: ... "each file is its own system"?
2014-04-11T00:03:55Z jasom: axion: you have a string in scientific notation?
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2014-04-11T00:04:22Z axion: no i have a number in scientific notation. i need to display it as a string such as 0.00020012
2014-04-11T00:04:33Z axion: errr "0.00020012"
2014-04-11T00:04:41Z jasom: Lisp doesn't have a scientific notation type; do you mean you have a float?
2014-04-11T00:04:45Z axion: yes
2014-04-11T00:04:51Z jasom: axion: format
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2014-04-11T00:05:40Z jasom:  (format nil "~f" 1e-20) => "0.00000000000000000001"
2014-04-11T00:06:11Z nyef: Fare: And what's this register-system-packages bit in the example for "my-lib"?
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2014-04-11T00:06:26Z nyef: clhs ~F
2014-04-11T00:06:26Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cca.htm
2014-04-11T00:06:46Z axion: ok thanks. if i do ,8f, that means its guaranteed to have 8 digits after the decimal, or 8 digits total?
2014-04-11T00:06:48Z _death: ~10,8F
2014-04-11T00:06:49Z nyef: axion: And there are a number of options there for controlling output precision... Though there may be some differences of interpretation there.
2014-04-11T00:06:54Z Fare: nyef: because the system for closer-common-lisp isn't called closer-common-lisp but closer-mop.
2014-04-11T00:07:09Z jasom: axion: though note If w is omitted, then if the magnitude of arg is so large (or, if d is also omitted, so small) that more than 100 digits would have to be printed, then an implementation is free, at its discretion, to print the number using exponential notation instead, as if by the directive ~E (with all parameters to ~E defaulted, not taking their values from the ~F directive).
2014-04-11T00:07:21Z nyef: But... why is that relevant to the example?
2014-04-11T00:07:34Z Fare: I don't remember. I must have mixed examples.
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2014-04-11T00:07:49Z Fare: I'll copy the lil example instead
2014-04-11T00:07:53Z Fare: it's a real-life example.
2014-04-11T00:08:02Z nyef: And I though it'd've been each file is its own package, not each file is its own system.
2014-04-11T00:09:40Z jasom: But I think if you do ~1f it's not allowed to do that
2014-04-11T00:09:48Z nyef: You might consider mentioning that the :import-from clause without any listed symbols is a legitimate option and simply declares a dependency, which is useful if you're planning on using an explicit package override for references.
2014-04-11T00:09:53Z Fare: well, the unit of management in ASDF is the system
2014-04-11T00:10:07Z Fare: nyef: thanks
2014-04-11T00:11:02Z nyef: Other than that, looks good.
2014-04-11T00:11:03Z axion: pcl doesnt really explain the number before the comma. care to explain?
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2014-04-11T00:11:50Z jasom: axion: the link nyef sent you to describes it.
2014-04-11T00:12:06Z axion: ah i missed that. thanks nyef
2014-04-11T00:12:08Z jasom: axion: but it's the total number of characters to pring, except that if you don't specify an overflow character it can make it longer
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2014-04-11T00:13:08Z axion: ok what do you suggest i do here. i am printing the price of crypto-currencies. the number of digits after the decimal should ALWAYS be 8. the number before can be any length.
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2014-04-11T00:14:23Z jasom: ~1,8f
2014-04-11T00:14:41Z zRecursive: clhs ~1,8f
2014-04-11T00:14:41Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for ~1,8f.
2014-04-11T00:14:55Z zRecursive: clhs ~f
2014-04-11T00:14:55Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cca.htm
2014-04-11T00:15:30Z nyef: So... "minion, memo for the specbot maintainer: please add support for decoding arbitrary format controls (with arguments), rather than the simple versions without. Thank you."
2014-04-11T00:15:41Z jasom: But in general, I wouldn't store the price of crypto currencies in a float (but IIRC you are getting your stuff in from an external source that is json so you may not have a choice about that)
2014-04-11T00:16:08Z nyef: When I'm shipping currency data over JSON, I typically string-encode.
2014-04-11T00:16:18Z zRecursive: clhs ~$
2014-04-11T00:16:18Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_ccd.htm
2014-04-11T00:16:43Z nyef: Oh, that's cool.
2014-04-11T00:16:48Z jasom: The correct way to store cryptocurrency data is an integer number of the minimum unit
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2014-04-11T00:17:36Z nyef: Umm... Bleeding useless, though, given the precision limits on single-float.
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2014-04-11T00:17:45Z Fare: jasom, oh, are you also into cryptocurrencies?
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2014-04-11T00:17:50Z jasom: nope
2014-04-11T00:18:00Z jasom: You can s/cryptocurrency/currency
2014-04-11T00:18:13Z jasom: I kind of follow them, since it's hard not to these days
2014-04-11T00:18:31Z axion: so 1.e-8 stored as 1?
2014-04-11T00:18:36Z Fare: before you READ a foreign float, you might want to adjust your *read-default-float-format*
2014-04-11T00:18:39Z jasom: axion: exactly
2014-04-11T00:18:51Z nyef: I'm not into cryptocurrency, but I'm having to do some basic research into normal currency support for stuff... The amount of digits to the right of the decimal point varying by currency is a nice touch.
2014-04-11T00:18:53Z jasom: Fare: or don't use READ use parse-flaot
2014-04-11T00:19:08Z Fare: jasom: sure. From which system?
2014-04-11T00:19:17Z jasom: Fare: parse-float and parse-number are both good
2014-04-11T00:19:53Z nyef: For more fun, what about JSON where you want to use a different number type format for different fields within the same object?
2014-04-11T00:19:59Z Fare: I would probably use parse-decimal from wu-decimal.
2014-04-11T00:20:19Z jasom: but in general, I wouls suspect that a good json parser will read in the floats as double-precision
2014-04-11T00:20:31Z jasom: And if my json parser didn't, I would file a bug
2014-04-11T00:20:41Z Fare: I'm always suspicious of going through floating-point to parse a decimal number.
2014-04-11T00:20:54Z nyef: Oh, good. Current SBCL uses ASDF 3.something. I guess I can use that if I ever start writing stuff for general use again.
2014-04-11T00:21:04Z jasom: Fare: json defines all numbers to be double-precision
2014-04-11T00:21:25Z Fare: nyef: asdf/package-system is only in ASDF 3.1 — though it's available as an extension to ASDF 3.0 with asdf-package-system.asd
2014-04-11T00:21:55Z Fare: nyef: can you keep using quick-build if your company sells it?
2014-04-11T00:21:57Z nyef: jasom: ST-JSON allows specifying the internal numeric format. My point is that you might want to override it on a per-field basis within an object. There are cases when that would be useful.
2014-04-11T00:22:17Z jasom: nyef: yes and no
2014-04-11T00:22:44Z jasom: nyef: if the json was generated by javascript, then the only thing that makes sense is double.  For other sources of json then maybe
2014-04-11T00:22:54Z nyef: Fare: The company is selling it but retaining a perpetual use license. And I can always rewrite it from scratch (with a better overall design/implementation) if I need it for my own stuff.
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2014-04-11T00:23:53Z nyef: AIUI, the JSON spec doesn't mandate precision limits on numbers, it's almost purely a surface syntax.
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2014-04-11T00:24:45Z nyef: JSON that can't be read by javascript without a massive loss of accuracy can still be perfectly valid.
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2014-04-11T00:26:28Z jasom: nyef: you are apparently correct
2014-04-11T00:26:47Z nyef: Horrifying thought, though, isn't it?
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2014-04-11T00:27:38Z jasom: Exchanging non-integers as purely decimal strings is a horrifying thought anyway
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2014-04-11T00:28:25Z jasom: I'm struggling to think of a less performant encoding for floating point numbers
2014-04-11T00:28:58Z nyef: Base 3?
2014-04-11T00:29:26Z jasom: Also I've seen libc in which printf()->strtof() doesn't always end up with the same number
2014-04-11T00:29:38Z jasom: e.g. off by up to 3 ULP
2014-04-11T00:30:16Z Fare: nyef: pushed an update to the docs
2014-04-11T00:30:28Z Fare: thanks for the feedback.
2014-04-11T00:32:45Z nyef: Fare: Looks good.
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2014-04-11T00:34:24Z Fare: which of the following talk would you rather listen to: (1) using CL as a scripting language (2) laundry list of new features in ASDF3.1 since ASDF2 (3) the story of bug that begat ASDF3, with subtleties aplenty in the dependency model, and a surprising conclusion
2014-04-11T00:34:48Z Fare: (4) other: ___________
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2014-04-11T00:35:53Z nyef: 3, maybe 4.
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2014-04-11T00:36:41Z nyef: maybe-maybe 1, but that'd come behind a good bughunt story.
2014-04-11T00:37:05Z zRecursive: i want to hear more about CL successful story i.e.  maxima, stumpwm ...
2014-04-11T00:37:19Z DataLinkDroid: Fare: 1
2014-04-11T00:38:43Z Fare: my (1) is a bit slim, so I'd add in deploying executables and image life-cycle hooks.
2014-04-11T00:39:08Z Fare: I fill like giving talk 3, but I don't know if it'll fit in 30 minutes
2014-04-11T00:39:17Z Fare: probably 25 minutes, or 20
2014-04-11T00:40:18Z zRecursive: As a scripting language, there must be a start-up time problem ?
2014-04-11T00:40:40Z Fare: only the first time you invoke a script after modification
2014-04-11T00:41:01Z Fare: the asdf fasl cache applies
2014-04-11T00:41:34Z zRecursive: oh
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2014-04-11T00:44:04Z Fare: although, cl-launch, when compiling isolated files, has a bit of the asdf2 bug: it fails to consider that the file depends on things loaded before it. I should probably fix that.
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2014-04-11T00:45:01Z Fare: incidentally, the code to support that is mostly already there, courtesy of the ecl support
2014-04-11T00:45:24Z nyef: minion: chant!
2014-04-11T00:45:24Z minion: MORE ABOUT CL
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2014-04-11T00:46:22Z jasom: Fare: loading fasls on sbcl isn't all that fast though.  I still save an image for things I want to startup quickly
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2014-04-11T00:47:21Z zRecursive: Fare: know little about ECL, do ecl produce native code as sbcl does ?
2014-04-11T00:48:02Z jasom: ecl generates native code, but not at all the same way sbcl does
2014-04-11T00:49:10Z Fare: zRecursive, indirectly, through C
2014-04-11T00:49:33Z zRecursive: thanks
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2014-04-11T00:52:12Z Fare: cl-launch, via asdf, can dump an image for you — or, on select implementations, a standalone executable
2014-04-11T00:52:32Z jasom: sbcl --no-userinit --eval "(sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die \"test.out\" :toplevel #'quit :executable t)"  <-- that generates an executable that is about 15x slower than /bin/true on my machine
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2014-04-11T00:53:46Z jasom: It's also 47MB so that's probably why
2014-04-11T00:54:02Z Fare: reminds me that I wanted my next project to be moll... execution with 0 overhead.
2014-04-11T00:54:22Z zRecursive: jasom: why compared with /bin/true ?
2014-04-11T00:54:25Z Fare: (actually, with the overhead of dynamic linking)
2014-04-11T00:54:38Z jasom: zRecursive: most trivial program I could think of
2014-04-11T00:55:23Z Fare: jasom: how much overhead compared to /bin/sh -c ':' ?
2014-04-11T00:55:32Z Fare: a fairer comparison
2014-04-11T00:55:46Z Fare: or perl -e 1 or python something
2014-04-11T00:56:22Z Fare: and what is the overhead when the file cache is hot vs cold ?
2014-04-11T00:56:49Z zRecursive sbcl is not slow but indeed needs more RAM compared with ccl, clisp
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2014-04-11T00:56:57Z jasom: Fare: I was only testing with it hot
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2014-04-11T00:57:54Z jasom: Fare: it's much faster than python -c ''
2014-04-11T00:58:20Z jasom: and perl -e 1 is within the noise the same as /bin/true
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2014-04-11T01:01:16Z jasom: I'll need a better test-harnes for testing perl vs true vs sh.  Python ccl sbcl can all  be distinguished from each other with a for loop in bash though
2014-04-11T01:01:48Z nyef: jasom: http://sourceforge.net/p/sbcl/sbcl/ci/4e459f3ceb8acac03f99c5d17f8c13a2541b61eb/
2014-04-11T01:01:52Z jasom: I should have a spawn or fork/exec loop in C for benchmarking
2014-04-11T01:02:26Z jasom: nyef: thanks!  Wasn't exactly a trivial fix I see
2014-04-11T01:03:27Z nyef: No, took a bit of doing to get it basically working, then it turned out that one of the test cases was asserting something wrong...
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2014-04-11T01:04:22Z nyef: It took a good couple hours of batting it back and forth just to have a good idea of what the right semantics were. And that was after pkhuong figured out what was going on.
2014-04-11T01:05:10Z nyef: And it's still wrong, but at least it shouldn't produce completely broken code anymore.
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2014-04-11T01:06:08Z Fare: nyef: s/compatability/compatibility/
2014-04-11T01:06:17Z nyef: Anyway, you can apply that and build now, revert to 1.1.13, or wait for the next release.
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2014-04-11T01:07:02Z nyef: Fare: Damnit, that's an obnoxiously stable mis-spelling on my part. /-:
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2014-04-11T01:08:03Z nyef: Ah, well. Not dealing with it now.
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2014-04-11T01:31:33Z mzgcz: why (reduce #'expt '(2 3 2) :from-end t) result is 512 ?
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2014-04-11T01:33:56Z Fare: 3**2 = 9, 2**9 = 512
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2014-04-11T01:34:20Z axion: ok, now the question is the best way to convert a string such as "0.0246" to a a string with 8 decimal places. different api cuts off remaining zeros when i need them. clearly format/r-f-s isnt the best way but its what im using
2014-04-11T01:34:45Z Fare: axion: wu-decimal ?
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2014-04-11T01:35:33Z nyef: Wait, you just want to append zeros to the end to obtain eight digits after the point?
2014-04-11T01:35:45Z axion: yes, retaining the string
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2014-04-11T01:36:02Z nyef: So... Something involving CONCATENATE 'STRING, LENGTH, and POSITION?
2014-04-11T01:36:11Z Fare: underspecified issue. What can or cannot be in the string?
2014-04-11T01:36:12Z nyef: ... And maybe MAKE-STRING.
2014-04-11T01:36:28Z Fare: uiop:strcat ?
2014-04-11T01:36:53Z axion: well the length of the total string can differ. only the decimal places matter
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2014-04-11T01:37:19Z nyef: Or there's an angle using SUBSEQ as well...
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2014-04-11T01:37:42Z nyef: (Add eight zeros, find the decimal point, and truncate.)
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2014-04-11T01:43:03Z Fare: position #\. s :from-end t
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2014-04-11T01:44:39Z nyef: Exactly. This isn't a number parsing/formatting problem, it's a string-manipulation problem. (-:
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2014-04-11T01:50:35Z Fare: nyef: will you be at ELS 2014? At ILC 2014?
2014-04-11T01:50:47Z nyef: I don't believe so, for either.
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2014-04-11T01:58:04Z zenyfish: this is so cool send to repl or C-x e works too...  https://plus.google.com/115247809307906241361/posts/dQLmbeVzwux
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2014-04-11T02:01:57Z axion: is this what you mean? seems i'm making this more complicated than it is: http://paste.lisp.org/display/141988
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2014-04-11T02:26:10Z Fare: ILC 2014 is not that far away from you... Montreal.
2014-04-11T02:27:00Z nyef: Far enough for the time being, I'm afraid.
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2014-04-11T02:27:45Z Fare: Want to share a ride?
2014-04-11T02:27:59Z nyef: It's not the only issue.
2014-04-11T02:28:19Z nyef: As such, I'm giving it a miss this year.
2014-04-11T02:28:47Z Fare: ok
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2014-04-11T02:49:50Z zRecursive: where can i find the implementation of 'diff in maxima ? `grep -R diff ...` can not find its definition in maxima/share/calculus/*.[max|lisp]
2014-04-11T02:50:06Z zRecursive: s/max/mac
2014-04-11T02:50:32Z nyef: -Ri maybe?
2014-04-11T02:50:51Z nyef: I presume this is something that you can't just DESCRIBE to get a source location?
2014-04-11T02:51:36Z zRecursive: all maxima source has been git cloned
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2014-04-11T02:52:39Z zRecursive: nyef: `grep -nH -e ...` in emacs cannot find its definition too
2014-04-11T02:53:32Z zRecursive: i just want to know how to implement 'diff using CL ?
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2014-04-11T02:54:41Z nyef: Did you try -i, for case-insensitive search?
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2014-04-11T02:55:30Z zRecursive: Just try `*find . -name '*.mac'|xargs grep -iw diff`, hope can get it
2014-04-11T02:55:40Z nyef: And what sense of "diff" is this?
2014-04-11T02:55:56Z nyef: Text-file-difference? Function differentiation? Something else entirely?
2014-04-11T02:56:00Z zRecursive: diff(x^2,x) => 2x
2014-04-11T02:56:03Z Bike: it's function differentiation, say the docs.
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2014-04-11T02:56:28Z nyef: Hrm. Sounds like something that I might try to look up in SICM and convert to CL.
2014-04-11T02:56:40Z ooben: Is it safe to nconc a &rest list?
2014-04-11T02:56:55Z Bike: PAIP goes over some symbolic differentiation.
2014-04-11T02:57:00Z nyef: ooben: Probably not a good idea.
2014-04-11T02:57:30Z ooben: nyef who conses the &rest list? the caller or callee?
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2014-04-11T02:58:01Z nyef: ooben: Implementation-dependent, especially when APPLY is involved.
2014-04-11T02:58:22Z nyef: ooben: And mind any DYNAMIC-EXTENT declarations you might happen to use.
2014-04-11T02:58:40Z ooben: nyef i'm not ready to open that can of worms yet! but thanks for the info
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2014-04-11T03:00:20Z nyef: Good luck, then.
2014-04-11T03:00:22Z jaimef fights with hunchentoot to terminate on 404's properly
2014-04-11T03:01:54Z nyef: "properly"?
2014-04-11T03:02:25Z nyef: I had to fight it to get it to not screw up my perfectly good error responses, but at least that wound up being a fairly easy switch.
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2014-04-11T03:12:26Z jaimef: nyef not hanging
2014-04-11T03:13:21Z nyef: ... Lovely. Never had that, AFAIK. Good luck.
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2014-04-11T03:21:11Z Fare: zRecursive, I suggest you write your scripts in CL rather than in shell.
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2014-04-11T03:23:42Z zRecursive: Fare: I ever used clisp to program some scripts long before
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2014-04-11T03:26:11Z Fare: zRecursive, I was thinking of cl-launch, not clisp.
2014-04-11T03:26:29Z Fare: it's more portable, and you can pick your favorite implementation.
2014-04-11T03:26:39Z Fare: unless that favorite is clisp
2014-04-11T03:26:49Z Fare: then indeed clisp is great
2014-04-11T03:27:41Z zRecursive: IIRC,clisp is fast to do scripting things, now i am using sbcl and ccl
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2014-04-11T03:31:39Z Fare: ccl is pretty fast, too, especially if the script has already been compiled
2014-04-11T03:32:00Z Fare: I used to prefer clisp for a quick run, but these days I prefer ccl
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2014-04-11T03:38:20Z axion: with the following form, it pushes a new list into *lists* only if the name key does not already exist. the problem i am having is (get-data) takes many seconds to complete, and i would rather perform the test before the data is populated. any suggestions? (pushnew (list :name (get-name) :data (get-data)) *lists* :test #'name-exists-p)
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2014-04-11T03:39:28Z nyef: (unless (name-exists-p ...) (push ...))
2014-04-11T03:39:47Z nyef: Something not quite right about that, but that's the basic approach.
2014-04-11T03:40:06Z Bike: probably put in a comment to explain why you're doing something so seemingly circuituous, too
2014-04-11T03:40:41Z axion: that was just an example
2014-04-11T03:40:44Z axion: but thanks
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2014-04-11T04:06:23Z jaimef: is it "t"? or "T"? e.g. (T '(404 (:content-type "text/plain") ("Not found")))
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2014-04-11T04:06:51Z Bike: reader will treat both the same, by default
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2014-04-11T04:07:10Z jaimef: ok must be something else in my code
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2014-04-11T04:29:01Z jaimef: how hard is it to decompile a sbcl generated binary?
2014-04-11T04:29:49Z Bike: pretty hard
2014-04-11T04:29:59Z Bike: if that's part of your debugging process you should find another way
2014-04-11T04:30:07Z jaimef: oh no.
2014-04-11T04:30:15Z jaimef: I want to distribute some stuff without normal folks poking it
2014-04-11T04:30:39Z Zhivago: Security through obscurity is never out of style ...
2014-04-11T04:30:39Z jaimef: just wanted to make sure there was no "sbcl --decompile foo"
2014-04-11T04:30:45Z jaimef: not security
2014-04-11T04:30:53Z Zhivago: Sure there is; just like for C.
2014-04-11T04:30:56Z jaimef: security through minority
2014-04-11T04:31:29Z jaimef: Zhivago: by the way, can you make your passwords obvious to me? I mean, clearly obscurity does not make them secure in any way
2014-04-11T04:31:30Z Zhivago: There isn't something to magically turn machine code into something nice for humans.
2014-04-11T04:31:50Z Zhivago: Why would I give you my password?
2014-04-11T04:31:54Z Bike: you shouldn't be putting anything private in a binary you distribute, though.,
2014-04-11T04:32:10Z jaimef: sure, but if a binary was merely the interpreter + some bson formatted data, it would be trivial to decompose
2014-04-11T04:32:28Z jaimef looks for his usage of "private"
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2014-04-11T04:32:43Z Bike: i am extrapolating from w hat you said.
2014-04-11T04:32:44Z jaimef: "why would  you ever want a binary?"
2014-04-11T04:33:45Z Zhivago: To ... run?
2014-04-11T04:33:53Z jaimef: just sizing up the effort required to view the logical source code
2014-04-11T04:34:02Z Zhivago: About the same as for C.
2014-04-11T04:34:15Z jaimef: perfect. thank you for a clear and concise answer.
2014-04-11T04:34:22Z Bike: the lisp source? yeah, as impossible as with C.
2014-04-11T04:34:40Z Zhivago: Which is to say, trivial, but not very readable.
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2014-04-11T04:34:51Z jaimef: yeah, but it's work
2014-04-11T04:35:16Z Zhivago: And if only people who wanted to do work wanted to steal your secrets ...
2014-04-11T04:35:41Z Zhivago: So, your secrets should be safe from people who don't value them sufficiently to do any work to get them.
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2014-04-11T04:36:16Z Zhivago: Security through worthlessness is even better than security through obscurity.
2014-04-11T04:37:31Z jaimef: nothing secret
2014-04-11T04:37:50Z jaimef: just distributing a script I'd rather people not open directly in an editor and change
2014-04-11T04:38:04Z Zhivago: Why?
2014-04-11T04:38:53Z funnel quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2014-04-11T04:38:59Z Zhivago: If it's valuable to anyone, they'll reverse engineer it.
2014-04-11T04:39:07Z Zhivago: And if it isn't, then ... they won't bother.
2014-04-11T04:39:09Z jaimef hands Zhivago the Louis CK "Why?" rant
2014-04-11T04:39:17Z Zhivago: I suggest using your brain instead.
2014-04-11T04:39:41Z nisstyre: Zhivago: what about security through anti security mitigation measures?
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2014-04-11T04:39:45Z nisstyre: i.e. the openssl approach
2014-04-11T04:39:51Z jaimef: openopenssl.org approach?
2014-04-11T04:39:58Z Zhivago: nisstyre: I hope they got funding from the NSA.
2014-04-11T04:40:16Z jaimef: Zhivago: grow up.
2014-04-11T04:40:32Z Zhivago: jaimef: Are you a poo-poo head?
2014-04-11T04:40:33Z nisstyre: Zhivago: looks like the bug was introduced by the same guy who wrote the RFC
2014-04-11T04:40:42Z Zhivago: Yeah. My money is on incompetence.
2014-04-11T04:41:29Z jaimef: hacking THE nsa was always easy
2014-04-11T04:41:35Z jaimef: helps if you work there though
2014-04-11T04:43:24Z jaimef: Zhivago: to assume that security was the primary reason for me using binary is incorrect. The ease of distribution was actually it. Then to go on and assume no brain was being used is just pointless.
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2014-04-11T04:44:35Z Zhivago: I suggest that you re-read what you actually wrote.
2014-04-11T04:44:52Z Zhivago: "just distributing a script I'd rather people not open directly in an editor and change" <- what does this have to do with ease of distribution?
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2014-04-11T05:02:46Z nisstyre: if you don't want people to change it then don't allow that in your license
2014-04-11T05:02:48Z nisstyre: simple
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2014-04-11T05:23:49Z zRecursive: Is "...(go doit) ... doit (...)"  valid in CL ?
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2014-04-11T05:24:30Z lozn: is sql hard to learn?
2014-04-11T05:26:13Z DataLinkDroid: lozn: yes
2014-04-11T05:26:23Z Bike: zRecursive: in a tagbody? yeah, why wouldn't it be?
2014-04-11T05:26:33Z lozn: what is the core concept to understand DataLinkDroid ?
2014-04-11T05:26:47Z DataLinkDroid: lozn: relational data
2014-04-11T05:27:13Z lozn: thank you :)
2014-04-11T05:27:16Z zRecursive: Bike: it is from maxima, http://paste.lisp.org/display/141989
2014-04-11T05:27:24Z DataLinkDroid: lozn: np
2014-04-11T05:27:27Z lozn: i'm starting a company that'll revolutionize the job market of the entire world!
2014-04-11T05:27:43Z Bike: zRecursive: right, prog includes tagbody.
2014-04-11T05:27:46Z zRecursive: hard to read those code
2014-04-11T05:27:55Z Bike: yes, god damn, that is old.
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2014-04-11T05:29:37Z zRecursive: But it is awful that such an old codes still works very well today
2014-04-11T05:31:12Z zRecursive: clhs prog
2014-04-11T05:31:12Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_prog_.htm
2014-04-11T05:31:50Z Bike: do you have paip? it goes into symbolic differentiation. not as involved as maxima's, i'm sure, but the code is easier to understand.
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2014-04-11T05:32:35Z Bike: oh fuck me derivlist is special isn't it, this sucks
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2014-04-11T05:33:34Z zRecursive: yeah
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2014-04-11T07:12:55Z loke_: Hmm... I haven't seen wj on c.l.l in a while. It feels empty there somehow :-)
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2014-04-11T07:14:27Z splittist: Is there a sensible way to read usenet on the web? Sensible including a way to ignore wj...
2014-04-11T07:14:42Z splittist: And when I say usenet, I mean cll
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2014-04-11T07:33:59Z aerique: ugh, my Lisp advocay skills are rusty.. I have to explain "why lisp?" to an intern
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2014-04-11T07:36:04Z loke_: aerique: Did you fail?
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2014-04-11T07:36:16Z loke_: The first chapter of PCL is good
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2014-04-11T07:36:47Z aerique: loke_: i was just reading that planning to send him the link but I'm looking for better things to link dump the intern with
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2014-04-11T07:47:07Z z0d: aerique: there are a lots of pages about "Why Lisp"
2014-04-11T07:48:02Z axion: i have a bunch of values with 8 decimal places of precision. it was recommended to store them as integers of the smallest unit. so 0.00000001 is stored as 1, whereas 1.00000001 is stored as 100000001. my question is what is the best method to reconstruct a string representation of the decimal from an integer? this is string manipulation, not floating point arithmetic
2014-04-11T07:48:03Z aerique: z0d: I know. I had given up on advocacy for years but I just want to plant a seed in this guy.
2014-04-11T07:48:07Z dim: and there's C++11 which apparently is turning out to be ambracing Lisp
2014-04-11T07:48:52Z loke_: aerique: Another way may be to just load up Emacs with SBCL, bring up a web server and show how to write and debug a web application with zero deployment, zero restarts
2014-04-11T07:49:07Z Fare: axion: wu-decimal
2014-04-11T07:49:15Z loke_: axion: Take a look at wu-decimal
2014-04-11T07:49:36Z loke_: Fare: stop thinking like me, makes me lose my individualism. :-)
2014-04-11T07:49:47Z axion: aha thanks
2014-04-11T07:49:55Z aerique: loke_: I might just do that.
2014-04-11T07:49:59Z Fare: I worked with Wes to make sure wu-decimal had a superset of the features in quux/decimal
2014-04-11T07:51:01Z loke_: aerique: I was in the same situation as you, wanting to convince people to use Lisp. A recording was made (quality not good): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pymDvW2Mvco
2014-04-11T07:51:38Z axion: is this not for decimals, and not strings though?
2014-04-11T07:52:32Z Fare: axion: what is .0000000001 if not a decimal number?
2014-04-11T07:53:25Z axion: the values are strings. i am storing them as integers since the precision will always be the same.
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2014-04-11T07:56:33Z axion: like i said, this is just a string manipulation problem. i'd just like to prepend zeros and put the decimal point in the right place, reconstructing the string.
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2014-04-11T08:17:42Z Fare: axion: then do
2014-04-11T08:18:18Z axion: trying
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2014-04-11T08:28:28Z leo2007: clhs +++
2014-04-11T08:28:28Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_pl_plp.htm
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2014-04-11T08:47:26Z axion: less than elegant, but i got it
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2014-04-11T08:56:00Z Cymew: http://lispm.dyndns.org/ccl have been offline for ages. Anyone have a copy of those instructions?
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2014-04-11T08:57:58Z z0d: Cymew: works for me
2014-04-11T08:58:05Z z0d: it gives me a Clozure blog
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2014-04-11T08:58:30Z Cymew: odd. I have tried it from home, and from work and chrome only claims it get sno data
2014-04-11T08:58:48Z z0d: I just tried it with Chrome/Linux
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2014-04-11T08:59:58Z Cymew: Weird. Well, at least it's there. Thanks.
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2014-04-11T10:25:27Z pjb: axion: if it's string manipulation, you don't need to remote the dot.
2014-04-11T10:26:31Z axion: i got it. ints padded with zeros and a dot
2014-04-11T10:30:01Z pjb: "1.00000001"  and be done with it.
2014-04-11T10:31:04Z axion: you missed the point
2014-04-11T10:31:09Z axion: but no worries
2014-04-11T10:31:36Z pjb: ;-)
2014-04-11T10:31:52Z pjb: That said, it's a trick described in the dragon book.
2014-04-11T10:32:03Z pjb: iitc
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2014-04-11T13:06:39Z theos: ,dragon book
2014-04-11T13:06:47Z theos: :<
2014-04-11T13:08:01Z prxq_:     ;; add a single directory to be scanned (no recursion)
2014-04-11T13:08:01Z prxq_:     (DIRECTORY-DESIGNATOR DIRECTORY-DESIGNATOR)
2014-04-11T13:08:26Z prxq_: so I'm supposed to put the single directory twice? (that's from the asdf documentation)
2014-04-11T13:09:14Z prxq_: does anyone have output translations configured for a non-standard directory, and if so - could I have your configuration file?
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2014-04-11T13:10:59Z splittist: prxq_: any more context?
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2014-04-11T13:11:35Z prxq_: splittist: http://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.html#Controlling-where-ASDF-saves-compiled-files
2014-04-11T13:13:14Z prxq_: it looks really complicated.
2014-04-11T13:14:11Z Xach: It's complicated on the surface, but if you dig deeper, with practice, it remains really complicated.
2014-04-11T13:14:22Z prxq_: ah, now I'm relieved
2014-04-11T13:14:39Z splittist: I agree. It seems the first DD is the source, the second is the destination.
2014-04-11T13:14:47Z splittist: (as Xach said the other day)
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2014-04-11T13:15:31Z splittist: Section 8.13, Rejected Ideas "I'd rather keep ASDF minimal." (dreadfully out of context, of course)
2014-04-11T13:15:48Z prxq_: But this is not even not minimal.
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2014-04-11T13:16:51Z Xach: maximality has a qualitaxity all its own.
2014-04-11T13:17:10Z prxq_: "In either of these cases, if the second designator isn’t t and doesn’t start with :root, then strings indicating the host and pathname are somehow copied in the beginning of the directory component of the source pathname before it is translated."
2014-04-11T13:17:16Z prxq_: somehow?
2014-04-11T13:17:27Z splittist: That the first line of the 'grammar' is a bad cut-and-paste from earlier in the manual doesn't help.
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2014-04-11T13:17:51Z prxq_: reminds me of this: http://git-man-page-generator.lokaltog.net/
2014-04-11T13:17:52Z Xach: rpg has been hard at work on improving the manual, I don't know where you can see his version in action, though.
2014-04-11T13:18:12Z Xach: rpg takes the quality of ASDF documentation quite seriously. i look forward to seeing the result.
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2014-04-11T13:19:17Z prxq_: does anyone have a working output file translation to a nonstandard directory? (and could I look at it? :-) )
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2014-04-11T13:19:57Z Xach: I have one somewhere, hang on.
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2014-04-11T13:20:41Z fe[nl]ix: prxq_: http://paste.lisp.org/+31K9
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2014-04-11T13:22:40Z prxq_: fe[nl]ix: thanks - does the (:home X) match when the source file in a subdir of X?
2014-04-11T13:22:52Z prxq_: is in, even
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2014-04-11T13:23:49Z fe[nl]ix: yes
2014-04-11T13:23:55Z fe[nl]ix: :home means the home directory
2014-04-11T13:23:59Z prxq_: ok, great
2014-04-11T13:24:20Z prxq_: thanks again
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2014-04-11T15:17:30Z puchacz: hi, I am refactoring something, I expect sbcl to flood *inferior-lisp* with messages like "wrong number of arguments to function"
2014-04-11T15:17:53Z puchacz: but they are not there. they only appear when I try to compile each file individually, or a function individually
2014-04-11T15:18:55Z puchacz: can I somehow see all warning messages from compilation?
2014-04-11T15:19:08Z puchacz: I removed the ~/.cache/sbcl-something directory
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2014-04-11T15:19:37Z pjb: (ql:quickload :your-system :verbose t)
2014-04-11T15:19:51Z puchacz: pjb: thanks
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2014-04-11T15:52:20Z naryl: Is there a portability library for handling posix signals?
2014-04-11T15:52:39Z naryl: Expected to find it in osicat but it's not there.
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2014-04-11T15:55:55Z nyef: POSIX signal handling is an exceedingly implementation-specific process, is typically fraught with difficulties, and is rarely used.
2014-04-11T15:56:49Z nyef: And it doesn't help that implementations might have their own internal uses for some of the signals which may-or-may-not interact well with user code using those signals.
2014-04-11T15:57:16Z naryl: Sadly, i have no choice.
2014-04-11T15:57:18Z nyef: (SBCL and one of the child-process-state-change signals comes to mind.)
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2014-04-11T15:57:27Z naryl: It's about ncurses and SIGWINCH.
2014-04-11T15:57:29Z splittist: It's right there in the name: Portable Operating System Interface. Like People's Democratic Republic.
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2014-04-11T15:57:53Z naryl: I have sbcl-specific handler for now. Works.
2014-04-11T15:58:06Z nyef: Also...
2014-04-11T15:58:11Z nyef: minion: Advice on portable?
2014-04-11T15:58:11Z minion: #12017: It doesn't need to be portable, it just needs to work on your system.
2014-04-11T16:03:44Z naryl: Looks like only sbcl and ecl have implementation interfaces to signal(). A portability library won't make much sense.
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2014-04-11T16:04:31Z naryl: splittist: Do you suggest calling signal() with cffi?
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2014-04-11T16:19:13Z splittist: naryl: sorry, I have no recommendation.
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2014-04-11T16:20:15Z beach: Good evening everyone!
2014-04-11T16:20:55Z fe[nl]ix: hej beach
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2014-04-11T16:27:50Z nyef: Hello beach.
2014-04-11T16:28:31Z beach: nyef: Since you said you didn't know how much a function call costs, I put together some test snippets.
2014-04-11T16:29:03Z nyef: Oh dear.
2014-04-11T16:29:06Z beach: https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL/tree/master/Code/Backends/x86-64/Timing
2014-04-11T16:29:51Z beach: I would be happy to receive contributions to that collection.
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2014-04-11T16:31:09Z beach: I was surprised that a function call where the address is a register is no more expensive than when it is a constant offset from PC.
2014-04-11T16:31:27Z beach: [on my computer of course]
2014-04-11T16:31:47Z nyef: I'm not, you've got a branch predictor in there after all.
2014-04-11T16:31:51Z beach: So it already served its purpose.
2014-04-11T16:32:27Z beach: Yeah, and it seems to work well for JSR as well.  That's great.
2014-04-11T16:32:36Z splittist: Hey beach!
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2014-04-11T16:37:58Z theos: sup
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2014-04-11T16:40:09Z beach: Aside from the test snippets, I have been working on the CLVM idea, now called Cleavir (Cutting-edge compilation tools for Common Lisp).
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2014-04-11T16:41:34Z beach: I have an AST format and a MIR format and a translator from AST to MIR.  I also have initial MIR stuff like dominance computation, etc.  Soon I will have conversion to SSA, type inference, and more.
2014-04-11T16:44:45Z nyef: Be careful with your type system.
2014-04-11T16:45:10Z beach: nyef: OK, I will. :)  But what do you mean specifically?
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2014-04-11T16:45:38Z nyef: I just learned a bit about what array type union means.
2014-04-11T16:46:15Z beach: nyef: I think I won't impose a type system, and leave that up to the implementation.
2014-04-11T16:46:26Z beach: Still, I will provide reasonable defaults.
2014-04-11T16:47:06Z beach: nyef: What did you learn?
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2014-04-11T16:47:27Z nyef: Probably easiest to share the commit URL here.
2014-04-11T16:47:49Z nyef: http://sourceforge.net/p/sbcl/sbcl/ci/4e459f3ceb8acac03f99c5d17f8c13a2541b61eb/
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2014-04-11T16:50:55Z nyef: Basically, it's really, really easy to screw it up and not notice for a long time, with nasty effects on compiled code once your compiler gets smart enough.
2014-04-11T16:51:24Z beach: nyef: Thanks, I'll keep that in mind.
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2014-04-11T19:02:32Z zer0cool: what's a site where i can look up scripts to learn how to program?
2014-04-11T19:03:33Z dlowe: learn how to program in common lisp?
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2014-04-11T19:04:33Z zer0cool: yes
2014-04-11T19:04:58Z zer0cool: lisp is what i want to learn, but reading different ways to use syntax from a book isn't entirely helpful
2014-04-11T19:05:01Z dlowe: zer0cool: this one is pretty good: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/
2014-04-11T19:05:21Z dlowe: just grab the pdf
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2014-04-11T19:05:52Z zer0cool: thanks
2014-04-11T19:06:17Z pjb: zer0cool: http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?MappersVsPackers
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2014-04-11T20:07:00Z Xach: uff
2014-04-11T20:08:57Z _death: don't uff, cff
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2014-04-11T20:25:33Z ubikation: hey can anyone help me decipher this?: https://gist.github.com/ubikation/10498708
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2014-04-11T20:26:59Z Xach: ubikation: i suspect something like (safety 0) making it not signal an error when you pass a stream instead of the expected vector.
2014-04-11T20:27:23Z Xach: yep, (speed 3) (safety 0) by default.
2014-04-11T20:27:39Z Xach: ubikation: you will also leak a stream by using OPEN like that.
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2014-04-11T20:28:11Z Xach: ubikation: one easy way to get characters is to use character functions on a character stream, e.g. read-char, read-line
2014-04-11T20:29:46Z nicdev: ubikation: alexandria and uiop both have functions to read file into a string if that's the end goal
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2014-04-11T20:31:29Z ubikation: Xach, nicdev: thanks!
2014-04-11T20:33:30Z ubikation: Xach: it looks like that declare is usually function specific... how do I apply it to all of my files? Or do I want to do that?
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2014-04-11T20:35:28Z Xach: ubikation: it would be nice if trivial-utf-8 did not do that, but you can avoid the crash if you pass the right kind of data to it.
2014-04-11T20:35:42Z Xach: Otherwise you have to do some fiddling with variables and recompile
2014-04-11T20:36:26Z ubikation: does alexandria:read-file-into-string work well with utf8 or other weird characters?
2014-04-11T20:36:58Z pjb: I don't know about alexandria, but cesarum functions take a :external-format argument.
2014-04-11T20:37:26Z Xach: ubikation: alexandria accepts an external format argument that can be used to set the expected encoding.
2014-04-11T20:38:00Z Fare: ubikation, uiop:slurp-file-string does
2014-04-11T20:40:01Z Fare: and exports uiop:*utf-8-external-format* (which is the default for its functions).
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2014-04-11T20:40:54Z Fare: it gracefully falls back to :default on 8-bit implementations.
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2014-04-11T20:41:47Z Fare: ubikation, also, friends don't let friends use cl-fad anymore
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2014-04-11T20:42:51Z Xach: The ratio of problems per line in that snippet is pretty impressive.
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2014-04-11T20:45:31Z ubikation: thanks everyone!
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2014-04-11T20:48:21Z ubikation: I want to use a hashtable to access binary assets. How am I supposed to read a binary stream and serve it properly?
2014-04-11T20:49:13Z pjb: Using com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.file:binary-file-contents instead of com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.file:text-file-contents.
2014-04-11T20:50:20Z Xach: ubikation: you can create a vector the same length (file-length) as the file and use read-sequence to fill it. then save that vector however you like, and return it however you like.
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2014-04-11T21:00:41Z ubikation: is there a difference between an array and a vector in cl?
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2014-04-11T21:05:28Z Bike: a vector is a one-dimensional array.
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2014-04-11T21:16:10Z ubikation: is there an easy way to tell if a file is ascii/utf8/xml vs binary?
2014-04-11T21:17:44Z nyef: They're all binary. XML is usually pretty obvious to distinguish. You may presume ASCII if every octet in the file has the high bit clear. Beyond that, you're getting into dealing with /a priori/ knowledge or heuristics.
2014-04-11T21:17:49Z nyef: minion: advice on heuristic
2014-04-11T21:17:49Z minion: #11953: Of course, this is a heuristic, which is a fancy way of saying that it doesn't work.
2014-04-11T21:18:45Z ubikation: I want to run a shell command, but asdf:run-program isn't public and the docs recommend it? at least on http://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf/Miscellaneous-additional-functionality.html
2014-04-11T21:19:14Z nicdev: ubikation: uiop/run-program:run-program
2014-04-11T21:19:18Z nyef: Can't help you there, I'm afraid.
2014-04-11T21:19:37Z nyef shudders at the thought of some of the damage involved in implementing RUN-PROGRAM.
2014-04-11T21:20:06Z drewc: UIOP/RUN-PROGRAM is what I use.
2014-04-11T21:21:02Z drewc: nyef: it is indeed quite damaged. So much so that ASDF uses UIOP, and it almost works the way it's needed.
2014-04-11T21:21:57Z nyef: "Oh, you want to do something with SIGCHLD? Hahahahaha!"
2014-04-11T21:22:35Z drewc: ubikation: but, even better is to use whatever implementation specific things your CL offers ... and then try to port it to others, and see the damage yourself, and end up using UIOP.
2014-04-11T21:23:27Z drewc: OR, disregard portability! Which worked for me until recently.
2014-04-11T21:23:43Z nyef: drewc: What changed in that respect?
2014-04-11T21:23:54Z drewc: nyef: CCL and ARM
2014-04-11T21:23:57Z nyef: Ah.
2014-04-11T21:24:20Z nyef: Clearly, I need to spend some time soon hacking on SBCL/ARM again.
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2014-04-11T21:25:09Z drewc: It was 2004 (or was it early '05) when I started using SBCL over CMUCL... and since then, most of the time, SBCL.
2014-04-11T21:25:18Z nyef: But between PPC damage, SPARC damage, array damage, and paying work I've been a little distracted from ARM stuff.
2014-04-11T21:25:50Z drewc: that I can understand ... the lack of time is indeed severe from my knowledge
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2014-04-11T21:26:32Z drewc: array damage?!
2014-04-11T21:26:41Z oleo: argh, reading macros goes on my eyes!
2014-04-11T21:26:42Z oleo: lol
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2014-04-11T21:27:22Z nyef: drewc: http://sourceforge.net/p/sbcl/sbcl/ci/4e459f3ceb8acac03f99c5d17f8c13a2541b61eb/
2014-04-11T21:27:55Z drewc uses his eyes to read almost everything .... though does know a wee bit of braille.
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2014-04-11T21:29:08Z drewc: heh .... I wonder if something related to that is why I ignore the types of arrays (and performance thereof)
2014-04-11T21:29:48Z nyef: It was discovered because SBCL was incorrectly pruning clauses from typedefs during compilation.
2014-04-11T21:30:32Z drewc: heh .... my mind says that, or something similar, may have been the cause of my issue.
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2014-04-11T21:31:06Z drewc: That is a weakness of mine ... discovering bugs but thinking it is my fault for doing something the wrong way etc ...
2014-04-11T21:31:45Z drewc is thinking of the silly HANDLER-[BIND | CASE] issue that we ran into
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2014-04-11T21:32:13Z drewc: which was mostly my fault IIRC ... /mostly/
2014-04-11T21:32:22Z nyef: The weakness isn't thinking "I must be doing something wrong", it's not being either able to validate yourself that it should work or willing to ask for someone else to look into it.
2014-04-11T21:33:07Z drewc: indeed, that last thing is likely it.
2014-04-11T21:33:53Z drewc: because I always think it should work, that is a strength! :P
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2014-04-11T21:35:08Z nyef: You've described a situation where there is a bug, either in your wetware or in the software that you're using. Why would you NOT try to debug it?
2014-04-11T21:36:57Z drewc: The issue is the location of the bug in the wetware may prevent both the recognition and the debugging thereby.
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2014-04-11T21:37:49Z nyef: Which is why you ask for help if you can't find it.
2014-04-11T21:38:01Z nyef: The worst-case scenario is that you learn something.
2014-04-11T21:38:05Z drewc: yup, that is the bug I need to fix.
2014-04-11T21:38:12Z Xach: D'oh, I failed to celebrate SBCL's 14th birthday!
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2014-04-11T21:39:14Z nyef: Only four more years until SBCL is old enough to vote, and seven until it's old enough to drink. (-:
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2014-04-11T21:39:49Z drewc: where is the ILC? what is the drinking age there?!!
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2014-04-11T21:41:16Z drewc is very excited about this summer in the royal mountain area ... 
2014-04-11T21:41:21Z Xach: it was able to drink at the english one in 2007!
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2014-04-11T21:45:52Z drewc: #1=(|2007 I was Lisping in Boston ... while it was not the ILC, it sure seemed like a gathering of lispniks ... and of course the pub was named after the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation .... where is the ILC ... this year| . #1#)
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2014-04-11T21:46:44Z drewc: which in Mtl is actually known as the RDC, not the CBC ...
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2014-04-11T21:57:05Z Fare: ubikation, uiop:run-program is public
2014-04-11T21:57:09Z Fare: and documented
2014-04-11T21:57:17Z Fare: and the right thing to use
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2014-04-11T21:57:44Z Fare: ubikation, to detect a file's encoding, try asdf-encodings
2014-04-11T21:58:16Z Fare: it uses the same algorithm as emacs
2014-04-11T21:58:25Z Fare: based on code by scl's douglas crosher
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2014-04-11T21:58:43Z Fare: (but I chose compatibility with emacs rather than scl)
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2014-04-11T22:00:55Z nyef: ... Okay, now I'm curious, since guessing file encodings has actually been an issue for me at work recently.
2014-04-11T22:01:14Z nyef: (To the point where I've had to add support for another encoding to SBCL.)
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2014-04-11T22:02:39Z Fare: emacs grabs, what, 3KiB at the beginning of file, 1KiB at the end? or the opposite? and then looks for variables, and/or does analysis of the contents.
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2014-04-11T22:03:22Z Fare: does it look like ASCII ? UTF-n ? EBCDIC ? Is there a -*- statement? A Variables: at the end?
2014-04-11T22:03:50Z nyef: Hrm. I'm thinking that it might mis-guess if there's only two non-ascii characters in the entire file, and they're in MacRoman.
2014-04-11T22:04:02Z drewc enjoys the "everything is :utf-8" thing that he has been doing lately, and is somewhat upset that it is all going to go away shortly.
2014-04-11T22:04:19Z Fare: drewc: why go away?
2014-04-11T22:04:28Z Fare: asdf now uses utf-8 by default
2014-04-11T22:04:29Z nyef: And, of course, there's also the fun example I found of a CSV file in at least three different encodings, two of which were used on the same line of the file.
2014-04-11T22:04:39Z Fare: the benefits on cl-test-grid were impressive.
2014-04-11T22:05:18Z Fare: nyef: mix of encodings in the same file?
2014-04-11T22:05:32Z Xach: nyef: I'm reminded of TIFF and some GIS file formats, which sometimes use both big and little endian in header number values.
2014-04-11T22:05:35Z drewc: Fare: my clients have files they want to put in the postgresql database ... their clients provide the files ... me/lisp in the middle.
2014-04-11T22:05:55Z Fare: nyef: it will probably mis-guess MacRoman, although it could be clever and look at the line ending
2014-04-11T22:06:18Z nyef: Fare: On the same LINE. I think that example was utf-8 and latin1 on the same line, and macroman later in the file or something.
2014-04-11T22:06:37Z Fare: drewc: dim has a nice tool to migrate stuff to postgresql
2014-04-11T22:07:16Z Fare: nyef: lovely
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2014-04-11T22:07:34Z nyef: That was the point at which I threw my hands up and said "screw it, I'm going to load it as whatever, make note of which records had non-ascii stuff, and tell the customer which records they might need to fix."
2014-04-11T22:07:50Z drewc: the file is a CSV or xml, and everything does seem to be USA english, but It will have to do what it does regardless of encoding errors, which is the difficult/fun part.
2014-04-11T22:08:49Z Fare: there could be better heuristics, especially if you can narrow down language or country
2014-04-11T22:10:11Z nyef: In my case, I'd have to heuristically guess language and country on a per-record basis, as it's possibly multi-cultural/national data.
2014-04-11T22:10:18Z Fare: for instance, if it's people's names, you might assume characters ought to be alphanumeric, and validate based on that. Or have a model of what syllables look like in various languages, and validate on that.
2014-04-11T22:10:55Z drewc: I was actually told today to not worry about things that are 'international' in requirements... it was for first/middle/last names in DB columns ... which I do not do because it does not work, but meh, it is said not to worry about it so I wont.
2014-04-11T22:10:56Z nyef: And, yes, that's where I was thinking that I'd end up if I keep having to deal with this data loading stuff.
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2014-04-11T22:11:14Z nyef: Anyway, I need to run to dinner, I'll be back laterish.
2014-04-11T22:11:19Z drewc: won't ... avoided the quote there ... '|too much lisping|
2014-04-11T22:12:01Z Fare: I remember working on an air canada tape that was ebcdic, and some fields had accents, and we could guess the ebcdic code page from context.
2014-04-11T22:12:08Z Fare: although we did that manually
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2014-04-11T22:13:10Z drewc: ah yes, that brings back a tonne of memories about air canada, ebcdic, and lisp.... in 2007 ... #1!
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2014-04-11T22:14:46Z Fare: I also once worked on a mix of viscii, cp1252, utf-8. Maybe also cp437.
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2014-04-11T22:16:43Z drewc: IIRC, I had to add UTF-something to the lisp->c->oracle thingie and there was major issues... so many that even after it "worked" it was dropped.
2014-04-11T22:18:11Z drewc: hopefully quantums will take care of all this, and we simply run the algo for every possible encoding from all time (fore and aft) ...
2014-04-11T22:19:01Z drewc: and have the results as we ask the question, which is how such cats lives are discovered ... or something ...
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2014-04-11T22:25:18Z Fare: it was not UTF-8, but java's crazy utf-16-over-utf-8, cesu-8
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2014-04-11T22:26:27Z Fare: s/java/oracle/
2014-04-11T22:26:51Z Fare: we found so many bugs in oracle that wasn't funny
2014-04-11T22:27:26Z drewc: yes, that is it exactly!
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2014-04-11T22:28:26Z drewc: owww ... my poor brain ... all those memories now imploding things!
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2014-04-11T22:38:46Z jasom: hmm, ccl seems to be very efficient when replacing the entire readtable.  Like on the order of single-digit MB to install a macro-function for every character?
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2014-04-11T22:40:44Z jasom: sbcl is on the order of 200MB do to the same.
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2014-04-11T22:43:12Z jasom: whoops, measured sbcl wrong, a bit ove 100MB
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2014-04-11T23:16:26Z jasom: Any way to approximate number the amount of allocation that can happen before the next nursery collection on sbcl?
2014-04-11T23:18:23Z nyef: gencgc or cheneygc?
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2014-04-11T23:20:55Z nyef: (For cheneygc I can tell you how to calculate it exactly. For gencgc I'd have to do some digging.)
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2014-04-11T23:23:24Z nyef: ... Lovely. My RPi managed to generate somewhere around 20 seconds of clock drift as compared with my main system over the hour or so that it's been running. /-:
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2014-04-11T23:29:49Z axion: if i split a software version string into 3 parts "x.x.x", what is the best way i can check if it is greater than or equal to "4.1.153"? "4.2", "5.0", "4.1.154" shoudl all return true. seems like a lot of if's or i am just not thinking clearly
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2014-04-11T23:32:29Z nyef: Well, start by splitting it into components. (4 1 153) should be less than (5 0) (4 2) and (4 1 154).
2014-04-11T23:33:14Z nyef: ... Maybe something with EVERY?
2014-04-11T23:33:21Z axion: i have a list of components already
2014-04-11T23:33:34Z axion: ("4" "1" "153")
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2014-04-11T23:33:47Z nyef: Or maybe EVERY and one of the mapping functions?
2014-04-11T23:34:01Z axion: hmm not familiar. i'll read up on it
2014-04-11T23:34:07Z nyef: clhs every
2014-04-11T23:34:07Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_everyc.htm
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2014-04-11T23:35:54Z axion: what predicate?
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2014-04-11T23:36:51Z nyef: You might need to map (lambda (x y) (< (or x 0) (or y 0))) over the lists, and then every #'identity or something like that.
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2014-04-11T23:37:34Z nyef: I trust that you'll understand when I say that I'm not planning to work this out in any kind of detail at this point because I'm hacking on something else right now.
2014-04-11T23:37:37Z _death: lexicographical ordering
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2014-04-11T23:38:30Z axion: well thanks :)
2014-04-11T23:39:53Z _death: something like (defun version< (xs ys) (cond ((null xs) t) ((null ys) nil) ((< (first xs) (first ys)) t) ((> (first xs) (first ys)) nil) (t (version< (rest xs) (rest ys)))))
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2014-04-11T23:43:02Z _death: need to rotatef the first and second clauses..
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2014-04-11T23:45:27Z axion: hmm not exactly what i want but i'll hack on this
2014-04-11T23:45:28Z _death: (actually need to canonicalize the lists like nyef suggested)
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2014-04-11T23:47:16Z drewc: nyef: the issue (with rPI) is that using the CPU 100% all the time stops time ... I know it way tooooooo much
2014-04-11T23:47:59Z nyef: Oh, lovely.
2014-04-11T23:48:20Z nyef: Almost as lovely as sigaltstack() not being implemented on ARM/Linux until kernel 3.9.
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2014-04-11T23:49:20Z nyef: Worse, it appears to fail silently on my RPi.
2014-04-11T23:51:24Z axion: ive been deving lisp on an rpi for 2 years. lovely
2014-04-11T23:51:56Z nyef: Well, you haven't been using SBCL in that environment, so you might not be affected by this issue.
2014-04-11T23:52:00Z axion: no, ccl
2014-04-11T23:52:06Z axion: sbcl on main workstation
2014-04-11T23:52:06Z nyef: I, on the other hand, am completely screwed.
2014-04-11T23:52:36Z axion: wasnt aware sbcl was possible yet
2014-04-11T23:52:42Z nyef: It's not.
2014-04-11T23:52:43Z drewc: nyef: these days, for _real_ things, i prefer the beaglebone black ... but I only have 2 of those, and *many* rPIs ... so yeah.
2014-04-11T23:53:30Z nyef: drewc: I have a BBB, but I haven't set it up yet. My RPi is already set up, so I just use that.
2014-04-11T23:56:00Z drewc: the CPU on the BBB is a lot better, and it does not use the same chip for ethernet AND USB, which makes the rPI almost impossible to use for server-type stuff.
2014-04-11T23:56:34Z axion: i much prefer the odroid for embedded arm development though
2014-04-11T23:56:56Z drewc: OTOH, rPI is a great video/audio player, so i use it for that everywhere.
2014-04-11T23:57:24Z drewc: I have not played with the odroid yet at all, but it is net on my list.
2014-04-11T23:57:28Z drewc: next
2014-04-11T23:57:28Z axion: 2gb ram, quad core 1.7ghz
2014-04-11T23:58:05Z drewc: yeah, and from what I have heard it is very nice indeed :)
2014-04-11T23:58:20Z axion: imo rpi is overpriced for its specs, even at $35 (when i got it)
2014-04-11T23:58:31Z nyef: My next step is to absolutely confirm that this is an issue by grovelling through the Linux source tree.
2014-04-11T23:59:45Z axion: also rpi is terrible with sd, most are designed for dequential writes (image/video writing), and i have been through about 5 cards before i hooked up an ssd
2014-04-11T23:59:51Z axion: sequential
2014-04-12T00:00:19Z axion: nothing worse than corrupted fs in the middle of dev :)
2014-04-12T00:00:54Z nyef: Sure there is. Corrupted FS plus no backup, plus no working notes on how to set the whole mess back up.
2014-04-12T00:01:03Z axion: :)
2014-04-12T00:01:04Z drewc: yup, that they are... I use xbian with btrfs and write a .img almost every night...
2014-04-12T00:01:06Z nyef: (And no, I'm not bitter about it anymore.)
2014-04-12T00:01:40Z drewc: and still, usually dd the bare img that i installed with and set up things again.
2014-04-12T00:01:51Z zer0cool: it would be awesome to see litecoin fall to a price where it belongs .0001 cents USD / LTC
2014-04-12T00:05:35Z ubikation: how do I check the type of a result if it's nil or a number?
2014-04-12T00:06:16Z Bike: clhs null
2014-04-12T00:06:17Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_null.htm
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2014-04-12T00:12:34Z axion: _death: that snippet seems to work fine, even not canonicalized. only problem is it returns true if they are equal
2014-04-12T00:15:02Z jasom: nyef: sorry, missed your question; I dont know how to tell which gc I'm using
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2014-04-12T00:15:39Z Fare: is sbcl working at all on arm, these days?
2014-04-12T00:15:42Z nyef: Okay, turns out that there's a sigaltstack() implementation after all. Now I "just" need to track down the rest of the damage...
2014-04-12T00:16:05Z nyef: Fare: What constitutes "at all" for you?
2014-04-12T00:16:15Z Fare: (+ 1 1) ==> 2
2014-04-12T00:16:23Z nyef: It's not to the REPL yet.
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2014-04-12T00:18:08Z Fare: Although, this is a better test: (labels(({(] &rest [)(apply([ ])[))([(>)(elt(]())>))(](<)(do-external-symbols(] :cl)(push ] <))(sort <`string<`:key`string))(}({ + ^)({`816`1/5)({`688({`875({`398()"~{~A~^ ~}"(]())){(+ { +)))({`381)^))(do*(({`5248({`584 }`36063))([`874({`395 {`6))(]`4({`584 {`6))(}`#36RH4G6HUTA1NVC1ZHC({`395 }`36063)))((} [ ] ({`977 ]))({`902)({`381))))
2014-04-12T00:18:35Z axion: _death: with an ((equal x y) nil) clause it seems to be what i'm looking for. is there anything i'm missing? your comment makes me hesitant
2014-04-12T00:18:47Z nyef: ... Reminds me of "Creators admin C, UNIX a hoax".
2014-04-12T00:18:52Z Bike: terrifying.
2014-04-12T00:18:54Z nyef: s/admin/admit/
2014-04-12T00:18:58Z jasom: On a different topic, does the spec define which order the default forms for optional and keyword arguments are evaluated in?
2014-04-12T00:19:09Z Bike: left to right, iirc
2014-04-12T00:20:36Z nyef: ISTR it being left to right as well, but couldn't quote chapter and verse on it.
2014-04-12T00:20:50Z jasom: Ah, I found it: "Whenever any init-form is evaluated for any parameter specifier, that form may refer to any parameter variable to the left of the specifier in which the init-form appears, including any supplied-p-parameter variables, and may rely on the fact that no other parameter variable has yet been bound (including its own parameter variable)"
2014-04-12T00:21:35Z Fare: and by "not yet bound" they actually mean "bound to NIL" ?
2014-04-12T00:21:38Z jasom: which is actually a stronger requirement than just ltr evaluation
2014-04-12T00:21:45Z jasom: Fare: I assume they mean not yet bound
2014-04-12T00:21:58Z Fare: how can you rely on that fact?
2014-04-12T00:22:07Z jasom: so (let ((x 1)) (lambda (&optional (x x) x)) will work
2014-04-12T00:22:18Z Fare: how can there be an unbound lexical... oh, that's in case it's a special variable
2014-04-12T00:23:00Z Fare: that too
2014-04-12T00:23:02Z Fare: ok, thanks
2014-04-12T00:23:49Z jasom: so both binding and evaluation happen strictly left-to-right
2014-04-12T00:25:32Z axion: is there an easy way to convert a list of strings to integers, assuming they will always be string representations of integers?
2014-04-12T00:25:48Z Bike: mapcar #'parse-integer ?
2014-04-12T00:34:45Z _death: axion: you need to canonicalize so (4 1) is not smaller than (4 1 0).. there's no need for (equal x y) if you swap the clauses like said
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2014-04-12T00:50:16Z _death: axion: (defun version< (xs ys) (flet ((1st (zs) (or (first zs) 0))) (cond ((and (null xs) (null ys)) nil) ((< (1st xs) (1st ys)) t) ((> (1st xs) (1st ys)) nil) (t (version< (rest xs) (rest ys))))))
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2014-04-12T03:56:24Z axion: has anyone messed with cl-irc? after 5 minutes the bot ping timouts on freenode
2014-04-12T03:56:49Z Bike: yeah, there's a bug in the ping handling
2014-04-12T03:56:56Z axion: work around?
2014-04-12T03:57:07Z Bike: http://lists.common-lisp.net/pipermail/cl-irc-devel/2010-January/000273.html dunno if it's been incorporated yet, i think it has
2014-04-12T03:57:59Z axion: odd i just quicklisp'd it
2014-04-12T03:58:32Z dinosaurs: why am I getting a compile error in terminal
2014-04-12T03:58:37Z dinosaurs: when trying to make windows programs in lisp
2014-04-12T03:58:40Z dinosaurs: here is the issue
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2014-04-12T03:58:41Z dinosaurs: http://imgur.com/7tRnz45
2014-04-12T03:59:00Z axion: time for another Kline
2014-04-12T03:59:04Z dinosaurs: if somebody gets this after I leave, you can talk to me in #windows on efnet
2014-04-12T03:59:39Z spintronic4: waking up now...
2014-04-12T04:00:43Z spintronic4 quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
2014-04-12T04:01:26Z dinosaurs: lol
2014-04-12T04:01:32Z dinosaurs: axion  really
2014-04-12T04:01:47Z dinosaurs: i would love to stretch your moth open
2014-04-12T04:01:51Z dinosaurs: and shit inside of it
2014-04-12T04:01:58Z dinosaurs: while you are tied down to my living room table
2014-04-12T04:02:07Z dinosaurs: hear you moaning and gagging on my turds
2014-04-12T04:02:10Z dinosaurs: mmmmmm
2014-04-12T04:02:13Z dinosaurs starts fondling himself
2014-04-12T04:03:17Z dinosaurs: i thought that this was a speech therapy channl
2014-04-12T04:03:26Z dinosaurs: not a thpeech therapy channel guyth?
2014-04-12T04:03:37Z dinosaurs: where can I get me thum help for my thpeech impediment?
2014-04-12T04:03:54Z dinosaurs: i hate lithping
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2014-04-12T04:05:38Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2014-04-12T04:06:27Z dinosaurs: hi beach
2014-04-12T04:06:35Z dinosaurs: what do you think of the new logo I have designed
2014-04-12T04:06:37Z dinosaurs: to promote lisp?
2014-04-12T04:06:38Z dinosaurs: http://imgur.com/7tRnz45
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2014-04-12T04:10:17Z axion: ok, dinosaurs. one more time and you're gone
2014-04-12T04:10:33Z dinosaurs: one more time what?
2014-04-12T04:10:47Z dinosaurs: are you some sort of op that likes threatening idling chatters?
2014-04-12T04:10:52Z dinosaurs: or you just wanted to get my attention?
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2014-04-12T04:15:23Z gffaz: hello!
2014-04-12T04:15:35Z Fare joined #lisp
2014-04-12T04:15:52Z beach: Hello gffaz.
2014-04-12T04:16:03Z Bike: Does beach have ops, that would be nice
2014-04-12T04:16:11Z beach: I don't.
2014-04-12T04:16:15Z Bike: ah well.
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2014-04-12T04:22:31Z axion: Bike: do you know how to disconnect with cl-irc? i tried cl-irc:die but i get a message stating I'm not an IRC operator. Bug or wrong method...
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2014-04-12T04:22:55Z axion: thanks
2014-04-12T04:22:58Z Bike: die is an oper command to turn off the server
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2014-04-12T04:27:17Z theos: dinosaurs are extinct! he was an impostor.
2014-04-12T04:28:17Z beach: Clearly.
2014-04-12T04:31:57Z axion: slyrus: he's still here lol
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2014-04-12T04:33:52Z theos: :D
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2014-04-12T04:42:32Z beach: There was a great book some years ago called "Inner Loops".
2014-04-12T04:42:51Z beach: It was about how to write efficient code for x86.
2014-04-12T04:43:08Z beach: Today, it is not possible to be that precise.
2014-04-12T04:43:38Z beach: But I still wanted to have an idea of which instructions are fast and which ones are slow.
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2014-04-12T04:44:02Z beach: So I put together a test suite.  You will find it here: https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL/tree/master/Code/Backends/x86-64/Timing
2014-04-12T04:44:47Z beach: I take contributions, either in the form of new snippets, or in the form of execution times on different chips from what I have myself.
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2014-04-12T07:36:48Z oleo: morning
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2014-04-12T07:39:09Z beach: Hello oleo!
2014-04-12T07:39:21Z oleo: heya beach :)
2014-04-12T07:39:23Z zRecursive: what ?
2014-04-12T07:39:34Z beach: zRecursive: ?
2014-04-12T07:39:46Z zRecursive: afternoon
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2014-04-12T07:40:28Z oleo: doesn't matter!
2014-04-12T07:40:36Z oleo: it's always morning in #lisp!
2014-04-12T07:40:38Z beach is always amazed that the existence of timezones appears to provide endless fascination. 
2014-04-12T07:40:38Z oleo: lol
2014-04-12T07:42:04Z zRecursive: fascinated indeed
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2014-04-12T07:57:05Z beach: oleo: What are you working on these days?
2014-04-12T07:58:00Z oleo: seems like i'll more descend into language stuff......
2014-04-12T07:58:32Z beach: Like what?
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2014-04-12T07:58:59Z oleo: implementing toy languages maybe if i can get there.....
2014-04-12T07:59:04Z oleo: lol
2014-04-12T07:59:32Z beach: I see.
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2014-04-12T08:04:14Z beach: oleo: Is this because you need such languages, or because you want to learn how to do it?
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2014-04-12T08:10:51Z oleo: learn
2014-04-12T08:13:38Z Vutral: hm ^^
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2014-04-12T08:39:03Z pjb: beach: it's not the timezones that are fascinating, it's the archeological layers in languages.  I guess, until physical time was measured, it was rather important to synchronize on morning, noon, afternoon, evening, night.  Try it in real time, people always correct you if you don't give the right good time.
2014-04-12T08:39:33Z pjb: Good time!
2014-04-12T08:39:46Z pnpuff: thanks pjb!
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2014-04-12T08:44:30Z beach: pjb: Whatever! :)
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2014-04-12T08:45:27Z pjb: That said, it could be a good idea nowadays to drop time zone and have the whole planet work in UTC.
2014-04-12T08:45:35Z beach: Ouch!
2014-04-12T08:45:57Z beach: Some people would have to change their work hours.
2014-04-12T08:46:12Z pjb: Of course that means that 9-5 would be somewhere 17-11 :-)
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2014-04-12T08:47:15Z beach: pjb: What [Lisp project] are you working on these days?
2014-04-12T08:47:23Z pjb: Patchwork.
2014-04-12T08:47:37Z beach: Music?
2014-04-12T08:47:41Z pjb: Yes.
2014-04-12T08:47:55Z beach: That's open source as I recall isn't it?
2014-04-12T08:48:08Z pjb: Yes it has been put under the GPL3.
2014-04-12T08:49:29Z beach: pjb: Are you working on it for your own benefit or as paid labor?
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2014-04-12T08:50:16Z pjb: I've got a paying customer to perform this port from MCL/MacOS to ccl/MacOSX.
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2014-04-12T08:50:25Z beach: Oh, neat!
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2014-04-12T08:51:18Z pnpuff: I've never used MCL...
2014-04-12T08:51:35Z pjb: ccl is its descendant.
2014-04-12T08:51:46Z pnpuff: ah...ok
2014-04-12T08:52:02Z pjb: There's :openmcl in the *features* of ccl.
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2014-04-12T08:53:43Z beach: What is hard about porting it?
2014-04-12T08:54:21Z pjb: It uses the MCL object layer over the Mac Toolbox.  So I re-implement that layer over MacOSX.
2014-04-12T08:55:14Z beach: I see.  Was the MCL object layer already CLOS?
2014-04-12T08:55:18Z pjb: Yes.
2014-04-12T08:56:01Z pjb: The project is on https://gitorious.org/patchwork/ if you want to have a look at it.
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2014-04-12T08:56:49Z beach: Great!
2014-04-12T08:57:22Z beach: I have always wanted to work on it, but now I am too busy with other stuff.  Some day I hope.
2014-04-12T08:58:24Z pjb: Eventually, that should let us port other MCL applications to MacOSX.
2014-04-12T08:58:44Z beach: Oh, right.  Nice side effect.
2014-04-12T09:00:50Z Vutral: evil world
2014-04-12T09:01:37Z beach: Vutral: ?
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2014-04-12T11:53:45Z PuercoPop: Oi, How do I make emacs/slime indent plists properly?
2014-04-12T11:54:26Z pjb: M-x lisp-mode RET
2014-04-12T11:54:35Z pjb: it does it automatically.
2014-04-12T11:54:49Z pjb: If you quote the p-list.
2014-04-12T11:55:00Z pjb: With '
2014-04-12T11:55:12Z pjb: (quote (:a 1 \n :b 2 \n :c 3)) fails :-)
2014-04-12T11:56:53Z PuercoPop: so unquoted plists are always misindented?
2014-04-12T11:57:30Z pjb: They're not misindented. You can fbind a keyword: they're function or macro calls!
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2014-04-12T11:59:49Z PuercoPop: or a config file which uses s-exps
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2014-04-12T12:00:55Z pjb: You may try a new line after the opening parenthesis.
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2014-04-12T12:03:57Z PuercoPop: i think ill disable the pre-save-hook that indents the whole buffer
2014-04-12T12:04:10Z PuercoPop: thanks for the pointers
2014-04-12T12:04:32Z pjb: You may also write a lisp-data-mode variant to indent sexps that are not code.
2014-04-12T12:04:37Z pjb: sexp-mode perhaps.
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2014-04-12T12:17:51Z fiveop: Does anyone whether it is intentional that the closer-mop package does not export METHOD-QUALIFIERS or is that a bug?
2014-04-12T12:18:15Z stassats: it's a cl function
2014-04-12T12:18:58Z fiveop: that explains it
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2014-04-12T12:19:43Z stassats: it may not explain it, but it makes unnecessary to have it exported to use
2014-04-12T12:20:48Z stassats: c2cl:method-qualifiers would be the forward compatible way to use it
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2014-04-12T12:25:32Z p_l: fiveop: a way to deal with that would be to use c2cl package in place of cl package in imports
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2014-04-12T12:27:16Z Fare: you can also use uiop:define-package and its :mix clause, which is very practical. Other useful clauses include :reexport, :use-reexport, :mix-reexport
2014-04-12T12:27:28Z fiveop: thanks
2014-04-12T12:27:34Z p_l: Fare: so, something akin to conduits?
2014-04-12T12:27:42Z p_l: (which is what I tend to use instead)
2014-04-12T12:27:49Z Fare: p_l: probably. I've heard about conduits.
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2014-04-12T12:28:04Z Fare: define-package works, and works in the context of hot-upgrade
2014-04-12T12:28:11Z Fare: and/or of redefinition
2014-04-12T12:28:33Z p_l uses them to mix a package of closer-mop, conduits and sometimes few other bits as "base package" for the code
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2014-04-12T12:30:49Z Fare: I remember I was not convinced by the conduit interface, also
2014-04-12T12:31:16Z Fare: but the main reason for reimplementation was hot-upgrade
2014-04-12T12:31:48Z Fare: how do conduits deal with symbol conflicts?
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2014-04-12T12:32:46Z Fare: if it doesn't, then it's a bit useless to me, too, in cases where I use :mix
2014-04-12T12:35:53Z p_l: haven't tested it, to be honest
2014-04-12T12:36:06Z p_l: for the times I used it, I haven't had that problem
2014-04-12T12:37:53Z fiveop: Can I expect METHOD-QUALIFIERS to work on an argument to MAKE-METHOD-LAMBDA? (on SBCL it signals a slot unbound error)
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2014-04-12T12:38:03Z fiveop: -Can+Should
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2014-04-12T12:40:31Z stassats: mop m-m-l
2014-04-12T12:40:31Z specbot: make-method-lambda: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/make-method-lambda.html
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2014-04-12T12:41:11Z fiveop: Working with this is fun. I currently try to put code for finding the method object into the lambda that make-method-lambda returns, because I can't put it directly in there (then sbcl complains, that it doesn't know how to write the object to fasl or something like that) and the example in AMOP regarding passing the method as a third argument to the returned lambda completely breaks method combination (unless one wants to reimplement it ...)
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2014-04-12T12:42:38Z stassats: make-method-lambda creates a method function, not a method
2014-04-12T12:43:18Z fiveop: So?
2014-04-12T12:43:28Z fiveop: What does that have to do with my problem?
2014-04-12T12:43:30Z stassats: method-qualifiers doesn't apply to it
2014-04-12T12:43:54Z fiveop: to what?
2014-04-12T12:44:13Z fiveop: I certainly hope it applies to the method object passed to make-method-lambda
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2014-04-12T12:46:31Z stassats: and method-qualifiers slot has an initform, so i don't know how you managed to get it unbound, allocate-instance?
2014-04-12T12:48:58Z stassats: it says "method metaobject may be uninitialized.", i am not sure whether it means just allocate-instance with all slots unbound or not
2014-04-12T12:49:15Z stassats: oh, i guess it's a prototype
2014-04-12T12:49:43Z stassats: (c2cl:method-qualifiers (c2mop:class-prototype (find-class 'standard-method))) => unbound-slot
2014-04-12T12:49:53Z stassats: fiveop: so, you can't expect that
2014-04-12T12:50:02Z fiveop: Thanks
2014-04-12T12:50:17Z leo2007: any scheme implementation that has a decent swank backend?
2014-04-12T12:51:31Z fiveop: Does anyone have a decent idea, how to do what the example in http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/make-method-lambda.html does (passing the method object as a third argument to the method-function) without breaking method combination and without having to reimplement it?
2014-04-12T12:51:40Z stassats: fiveop: it's only used for dispatching, so method-qualifiers wouldn't make much sense
2014-04-12T12:52:18Z fiveop: stassats: I wanted to use them find the method object within the body of the method-function
2014-04-12T12:52:29Z stassats: what for?
2014-04-12T12:52:46Z fiveop: I want to access slots of that method object.
2014-04-12T12:53:25Z stassats: it wouldn't be the same method object as the one which defmethod creates
2014-04-12T12:53:38Z stassats: in fact, in sbcl it's always the same
2014-04-12T12:53:55Z fiveop: it wouldn't ..., in fact it is?
2014-04-12T12:53:59Z fiveop: I'm confused
2014-04-12T12:54:19Z stassats: it's always the same object
2014-04-12T12:54:31Z stassats: the same one object
2014-04-12T12:54:34Z fiveop: the prototype and the final method object?
2014-04-12T12:54:47Z stassats: those are always different
2014-04-12T12:54:54Z fiveop: then what's the same object?
2014-04-12T12:55:08Z stassats: the prototype
2014-04-12T12:55:16Z fiveop: Ok
2014-04-12T12:55:28Z stassats: because it's just a prototype
2014-04-12T12:55:29Z fiveop: (per method class I suppose)
2014-04-12T12:55:32Z stassats: so, what are you trying to do?
2014-04-12T12:56:00Z fiveop: make-method-lambda returns a lambda form for a method function, right?
2014-04-12T12:56:26Z fiveop: I want to access slots of a method object in its corresponding method function.
2014-04-12T12:56:29Z stassats: yes, i get what your solution is, but what does it solve?
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2014-04-12T12:57:18Z fiveop: I want to add arbitrarily many hooks to generic functions before/after methods
2014-04-12T12:58:13Z stassats: make your own method combination?
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2014-04-12T12:59:24Z fiveop: clos does not allow for multiple 'methods' per name/qualifier/specializer touple, as far as I understand it.
2014-04-12T12:59:46Z stassats: you can allow it for your fancy mc
2014-04-12T13:00:44Z stassats: but i'm not quite sure how such functionality would be useful, as it would be hard to redefine it
2014-04-12T13:01:08Z fiveop: That's why I wanted 'named' hooks on methods
2014-04-12T13:01:46Z fiveop: (defmethod test :after () (print 'after)) (defhook print-something :after test () (print 'my-hook)) (test) => AFTER MY-HOOK
2014-04-12T13:02:07Z fiveop: (defhook print-more :after TEST () (print 'more)) (test) => AFTER MY-HOOK MORE
2014-04-12T13:02:09Z fiveop: that's the idea
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2014-04-12T13:02:21Z beach: fiveop: You could wrap the existing method function in your own.
2014-04-12T13:02:22Z stassats: that should work, even without defhook, but with just (defmethod print-more :after fancy-hook () ...)
2014-04-12T13:02:52Z stassats: but you're into the long form of define-method-combination, not many returned alive
2014-04-12T13:03:04Z fiveop: stassats: you mean I should use my own qualifiers
2014-04-12T13:03:30Z fiveop: beach: That's what I tried to do :)
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2014-04-12T13:03:43Z stassats: yes, your own method-combination, your own everything
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2014-04-12T13:04:07Z beach: fiveop: You don't want to attack MAKE-METHOD-LAMBDA then, because that one is invoked by DEFMETHOD, so it's too late.
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2014-04-12T13:05:21Z fiveop: beach: you mean I should provide a macro that encapsulates defmethod?
2014-04-12T13:05:24Z stassats: mop c-a-m
2014-04-12T13:05:24Z specbot: compute-applicable-methods: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/compute-applicable-methods.html
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2014-04-12T13:06:20Z beach: fiveop: No, I meant you could use method-function to get the current method function of your method, and replace it with something that calls the hook and then the old ne.
2014-04-12T13:06:21Z beach:  
2014-04-12T13:06:41Z beach: *old one.
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2014-04-12T13:07:42Z beach: fiveop: (let ((old (method-function method))) (reinitialize-instance method :function (lambda (&rest args) <mumble> (apply old args))))
2014-04-12T13:07:48Z fiveop: beach: maybe remember the old value as well, so whenever a new hook comes along, I don't wrap the wrapper
2014-04-12T13:08:03Z beach: Sure.
2014-04-12T13:08:35Z beach: Oh, but maybe methods can't be reinitialized.
2014-04-12T13:08:41Z beach: I can't remember now.
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2014-04-12T13:08:45Z fiveop: I just looked that up
2014-04-12T13:08:47Z fiveop: :)
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2014-04-12T13:09:43Z beach: fiveop: You may need a subclass of standard-method.
2014-04-12T13:09:55Z fiveop: I have one
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2014-04-12T13:10:35Z beach: Then you would modify make-method-lambda to call your hooks in a slot in your extended method, and then call the result of (call-next-method)
2014-04-12T13:10:57Z fiveop: That was the idea
2014-04-12T13:11:09Z beach: heh, ok :)
2014-04-12T13:11:44Z fiveop: The problem is, how do I get the method object in the result of make-method-lambda ;)
2014-04-12T13:12:00Z beach: You don't.
2014-04-12T13:12:14Z beach: :(
2014-04-12T13:12:44Z fiveop: Unless I reimplement compute-effective-method
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2014-04-12T13:13:48Z beach: You could make call-method set a special variable with the current method.
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2014-04-12T13:14:20Z beach: That sounds messy though.
2014-04-12T13:15:38Z fiveop: And its not part of MOP.
2014-04-12T13:16:11Z beach: Yeah, that part is very opaque.
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2014-04-12T13:16:32Z beach: I think you are right, you need to reimplement compute-effective-method.
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2014-04-12T13:18:25Z beach: That shouldn't bee too hard though.
2014-04-12T13:19:01Z beach: No need to make your own method combination.  You just need to subclass standard-generic-function.
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2014-04-12T13:21:25Z beach: By the way, you are right.  It's fun stuff.  But a bit hard in the beginning.
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2014-04-12T13:24:56Z beach: fiveop: Still here?
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2014-04-12T13:25:10Z fiveop: Yes
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2014-04-12T13:25:24Z beach: What if your subclass of standard method just added a writer method to the function slot.
2014-04-12T13:25:54Z beach: The name of the slot is not known, so you would have to cheat, and it would be implementation dependent.
2014-04-12T13:27:40Z fiveop: I could change the function slot and then trigger that 'the whole' generic function would be recalculated. I don't know right now, at what times the protocol actually access the functon slot of method.
2014-04-12T13:28:27Z beach: Yeah, might not work.
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2014-04-12T13:29:43Z beach: Sounds like a reasonably simple problem, but in fact it is hard.
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2014-04-12T13:36:13Z Fare: beach: which would you rather hear? A talk about CL as a scripting language, or a bug chase with subtleties about CL build dependencies and a surprising moral?
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2014-04-12T13:40:54Z Zhivago: What's the moral?
2014-04-12T13:45:07Z stassats: fiveop: how about http://paste.lisp.org/display/142012 ?
2014-04-12T13:47:27Z stassats: you can make it infinitely more complicated
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2014-04-12T13:50:42Z fiveop: stassats: It looks good. Now I have to read up on method combination to understand it. http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/m_defi_4.htm
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2014-04-12T14:02:30Z stassats: fiveop: and that's ordinary clos, no mop
2014-04-12T14:03:32Z fiveop: What is funny, is that one has to state that.
2014-04-12T14:04:11Z fiveop: A method combination is sort of a meta object.
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2014-04-12T14:37:35Z beach: Fare: The latter.
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2014-04-12T14:42:02Z beach: stassats: Nice!
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2014-04-12T14:44:07Z beach: Fare: Why do you ask?
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2014-04-12T14:47:17Z Fare: beach: dunno what talk to prepare for els 2014
2014-04-12T14:49:46Z beach: Fare: You shouldn't ask me then, because I can't make it to ELS this time.
2014-04-12T14:50:48Z Fare: it will be recorded, hopefully
2014-04-12T14:50:56Z beach: That would be nice.
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2014-04-12T15:39:03Z leonvv: How would I continue to the next iteration inside a loop? My loop breaks whenever I use 'continue'
2014-04-12T15:39:24Z stassats: you don't
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2014-04-12T15:42:51Z slyrus: stassats: have you successfully used commonqt on sbcl/macos?
2014-04-12T15:42:57Z slyrus: and good morning folks
2014-04-12T15:43:04Z ChanServ has set mode -o p_l
2014-04-12T15:43:14Z stassats: i would if i had mac os
2014-04-12T15:43:23Z slyrus: ok then
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2014-04-12T15:49:45Z stassats: slyrus: do you have trouble getting it to work?
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2014-04-12T15:53:09Z slyrus: indeed
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2014-04-12T15:54:39Z slyrus: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142015
2014-04-12T15:54:59Z stassats: that's not nice
2014-04-12T15:55:06Z stassats: qt version?
2014-04-12T15:55:12Z stassats: smoke version?
2014-04-12T15:56:08Z stassats: it's better to use smoke from git anyhow
2014-04-12T15:56:36Z stassats: (even better would be not to use smoke, but that's for the future)
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2014-04-12T15:58:55Z slyrus: let's see...
2014-04-12T15:59:35Z slyrus: part of the problem could be that I have multiple Qt's installed. What version _should_ be using?
2014-04-12T15:59:47Z stassats: 4.8.5 would do
2014-04-12T16:00:08Z stassats: it also should be the one with which smoke was compiled
2014-04-12T16:00:14Z stassats: and libcommonqt.so too
2014-04-12T16:01:48Z slyrus: ok, i'll try a cleaner rebuild and see what happens
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2014-04-12T16:30:41Z slyrus: lo and behold... success! thanks stassats!
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2014-04-12T22:43:40Z Baggers: heya folks
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2014-04-12T22:44:04Z Baggers: anyone know of any libraries for handling midi devices?
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2014-04-12T23:36:17Z Denommus: can I adjust the precision of my floats?
2014-04-12T23:36:43Z nyef: Are you looking for *READ-DEFAULT-FLOAT-FORMAT* or something else?
2014-04-12T23:37:04Z Denommus: nyef: my calculations are rounding too much
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2014-04-12T23:38:34Z Denommus: nyef: it seems READ automatically assumes short floats, right?
2014-04-12T23:38:42Z Denommus: nyef: how can I READ a double float?
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2014-04-12T23:40:41Z Denommus: nyef: found it: *read-default-float-format*
2014-04-12T23:40:45Z nyef: Either use an explicit textual format that the reader will parse as a double-float, or there's some configuration variable, I'm sure you'll be able to figure it out...
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2014-04-13T00:33:55Z tolk: hi. ¿what's the proper way to delete an installed package from quicklisp?
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2014-04-13T00:39:44Z PuercoPop: tolk: no idea why would you want to do that but just rm from the ~/quicklisp/dists/quicklist/software/<system>/ folder and the tgz from the archive dir
2014-04-13T00:39:46Z nyef: ... Why bother? Or is it that you need the disk space?
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2014-04-13T00:40:22Z tolk: no. because i have several versions of slime installed, and i want to clear the one quicklisp installed
2014-04-13T00:40:47Z tolk: also, i just want to know how
2014-04-13T00:41:20Z tolk: removing packages is to be expected from a package manager i guess :)
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2014-04-13T00:49:56Z tolk: doing it manually is kinda dirty : /
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2014-04-13T02:45:06Z zRecursive: (ql-dist:uninstall (ql-dist:release "babel")) ?
2014-04-13T02:45:19Z anticorrupcion: TIRED of niggers?  Sick of their monkeyshines? We are too! Join Chimpout Forum! http://www.chimpout.com/forum At Chimpout, we are NOT white supremacists! I myself am a Mexican! Basically, if you are not a NIGGER and you hate NIGGERS, we welcome you with open arms! Join Chimpout Forum today!
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2014-04-13T07:02:57Z devon: Lispy SDL & OpenGL?
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2014-04-13T07:05:08Z sykopomp: devon: /join #lispgames
2014-04-13T07:05:18Z sykopomp: devon: there's decent lisp bindings for both of those.
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2014-04-13T07:17:30Z kahmalo: Is there any restriction against a Common Lisp implementation defining a CHANGE-CLASS-like operator that could change e.g. a cons cell to a vector?
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2014-04-13T07:21:37Z beach: kahmalo: Yes, I think there is such a restriction.
2014-04-13T07:22:14Z beach: clhs change-class
2014-04-13T07:22:14Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_chg_cl.htm
2014-04-13T07:23:57Z beach: kahmalo: The instance has to be an instance of standard-object.
2014-04-13T07:24:24Z Bike: they said a "-like" operator, not change-class itself
2014-04-13T07:24:28Z beach: kahmalo: CONS is not a subclass of STANDARD-OBJECT.
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2014-04-13T07:24:43Z beach: Oh, OK, sorry.
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2014-04-13T07:25:38Z Bike: i don't know if there's a restriction against it but it sounds like something that would break a lot of existing code in ways that would be fascinating for non-maintainers to watch
2014-04-13T07:26:20Z stassats: the memory layout is different, you need to copy things anyhow
2014-04-13T07:26:22Z kahmalo: Bike: Actually, changing a cons cell like that seems a lot safer than changing a symbol or a bignum.
2014-04-13T07:26:25Z Bike: i'm pretty sure you can define change-class methods for your own class classes besides
2014-04-13T07:27:16Z beach: stassats: The implementation can choose the memory layout for CONS cells.
2014-04-13T07:27:30Z stassats: beach: it rarely can choose physics laws
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2014-04-13T07:27:56Z kahmalo: Anyway, the GC knows where the references are, so in the worst case it could just update them all.
2014-04-13T07:27:58Z beach: stassats: I don't understand.
2014-04-13T07:28:04Z Bike: stassats: to make this seem halfway reasonable i was imagining an implementation on the jvm or something where conses and vectors are represented something like objects
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2014-04-13T07:29:52Z Bike: kahmalo: i haven't really thought it through, but i was thinking it would mess things up because code that deals with conses often uses identity in a way you don't with numbers (e.g. at all)
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2014-04-13T07:30:20Z stassats: also, (change-to-vector (cdr (cons x (cons a nil)))), how would the first cons feel?
2014-04-13T07:30:46Z stassats: beach: how the cpus are made forces only a single efficient representation
2014-04-13T07:30:55Z Bike: I guess you'd end up with (x . #(a))?
2014-04-13T07:31:19Z Bike: but your point is the having to change the cons i suppose
2014-04-13T07:31:23Z kahmalo: The question arised from me thinking of how the (CONS a b) type specifier differs from type specifiers like VECTOR or FIXNUM: a cons cell that initially matches the type specifier can be modified so that it no longer does.
2014-04-13T07:31:29Z beach: stassats: Maybe, but nobody was talking about efficiency.
2014-04-13T07:31:52Z Bike: cons is an odd type, yeah
2014-04-13T07:32:04Z kahmalo: In typical Common Lisp implementations, if an object matches the VECTOR type specifier, it always will.  But I guess it's just a matter of what kind of mutation operators are required to be implemented.
2014-04-13T07:32:05Z stassats: beach: i can't see any other reason to destructively change conses to vectors other than efficiency
2014-04-13T07:32:08Z beach: kahmalo: I think all code is written to assume that instances of built-in classes can not change their class.
2014-04-13T07:32:22Z Bike: i suppose it's like that with satisfies types too, though
2014-04-13T07:32:49Z stassats: and if you have a reference down the middle of a now converted to a vector cons, what happens?
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2014-04-13T07:33:24Z beach: kahmalo: I think you will find evidence on the page that talks about built-in-class.
2014-04-13T07:33:28Z beach: clhs built-in-class
2014-04-13T07:33:28Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_built_.htm
2014-04-13T07:34:03Z Bike: "Redefining a built-in class or using change-class to change the class of an instance to or from a built-in class signals an error of type error." i suppose that doesn't technically exclude some other operator doing it
2014-04-13T07:34:09Z beach: kahmalo: While it only says "using CHANGE-CLASS to change the class..." this clearly means that the class of a built-in instance can not change.
2014-04-13T07:34:30Z stassats: built-in-class can be implemented without taking up any memory, so they will have infinitely many copies, like characters or fixnums, so change-class won't make any sense here
2014-04-13T07:34:33Z kahmalo: beach: I don't think it means that.
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2014-04-13T07:35:21Z beach: kahmalo: OK.  Then please write your CL programs to assume that built-in instances can change their classes.
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2014-04-13T07:35:33Z ggole: You could implement immutable conses (that are restricted to be proper lists) as a vector
2014-04-13T07:35:53Z ggole: But pointers to them would have to be changed to be pointer+offset.
2014-04-13T07:37:07Z ggole: GCing such structures in a way that retained sharing would also be an interesting problem.
2014-04-13T07:37:22Z devon: sykopomp: thanks, #lispgames was helpful.  As to how decent the bindings may be, guess I'll find out.
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2014-04-13T07:39:49Z kahmalo: beach: Of course, if the instance is being used in a place that requires a specific type, e.g. how the name of a symbol must be a string, then it would be wrong for anyone to change its class, except perhaps to a subtype.
2014-04-13T07:41:02Z devon: \
2014-04-13T07:41:47Z beach: kahmalo: It is worse than that.  After any function call, almost any instance in your code can have its class changed, so you can no longer trust type declarations and such, and the type of everything must be verified all over again.
2014-04-13T07:42:23Z beach: kahmalo: Such an implementation could not generate efficient code.
2014-04-13T07:42:56Z stassats: i can't see anything gained by such destructive type changing
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2014-04-13T07:43:08Z kahmalo: If there are type declarations, it can trust them, I think.
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2014-04-13T07:43:26Z beach: kahmalo: You as a programmer maybe, but not the implementation.
2014-04-13T07:44:28Z stassats: and on sbcl, for instance, conses have a different pointer tagging from vectors, so all the pointers have to be updated
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2014-04-13T07:45:37Z Bike: kahmalo: beach is saying, for example, that if you have (progn (foo (car x)) ...stuff... (bar x)) the implementation can no longer infer that x is a cons at the time of bar's call, for instance, without much more detail in the inference
2014-04-13T07:45:54Z Bike: well, a list, not a cons, whatever
2014-04-13T07:47:18Z beach: Bike: Better example maybe: (defun f (x) (when (consp x) (+ (car x) (g x) (cdr x))))
2014-04-13T07:47:38Z Bike: yeah.
2014-04-13T07:48:01Z beach: Or even (defun f (x) (when (consp x) (+ (car x) (g 12) (cdr x))))
2014-04-13T07:48:10Z Bike: Heh.
2014-04-13T07:48:25Z beach: After g is called, it is no longer possible to trust that x is a CONS.
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2014-04-13T07:49:04Z beach: kahmalo: Do you see that too?
2014-04-13T07:49:14Z Bike: well, i suppose kahmalo was wondering in the first place because in normal CL after the g call you can no longer trust that x is a (cons number)
2014-04-13T07:49:42Z Bike: but that is less important, practically speaking, no?
2014-04-13T07:50:17Z beach: OK, change the + to h.
2014-04-13T07:50:35Z Bike: sure sure.
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2014-04-13T07:53:09Z kahmalo: In principle, the compiler could still optimize based on the assumption that the type does not change, if the change-class-like operator then scanned the call stacks of all threads and switched the stack frames to unoptimized versions.  That seems rather complex for the benefits though.
2014-04-13T07:53:40Z Bike: switched the stack of ongoing calls? O_o
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2014-04-13T07:57:39Z kahmalo: Bike: That seems useful for editing while debugging, doesn't it?
2014-04-13T07:58:21Z kahmalo: Switching the stack frames, I mean -- then if that feature has been implemented for debug purposes, it might not be too hard to use it for other things too.
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2014-04-13T08:09:07Z ggole: How would you handle frames of differing sizes?
2014-04-13T08:09:10Z ggole: That's pretty crazy. :)
2014-04-13T08:09:48Z ggole: JITs do on-stack-replacement, but not of the entire stack afaik
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2014-04-13T08:09:58Z ggole: Just the topmost frame.
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2014-04-13T08:10:52Z ggole: You might be able to get away with some kind of guard-and-deoptimise scheme though
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2014-04-13T08:13:35Z kahmalo: ggole: I suspect dynamic-extent objects embedded in the stack would be difficult to move.
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2014-04-13T08:15:12Z White_Flame: the JVM does swap out live stack frames up the chain
2014-04-13T08:15:30Z White_Flame: then again, that's in response to different optimizations, not changing class layouts
2014-04-13T08:16:10Z ggole: Hmm, seems like that would be tricky
2014-04-13T08:17:20Z White_Flame: the fact that stack frames exist on the heap does help that out quite a bit, I'm sure
2014-04-13T08:17:33Z White_Flame: at least in the model
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2014-04-13T08:18:48Z ggole: Do JVMs really do that? The only implementations I know of that heap-allocate activation records are Schemes and MLs that are interested in supporting continuations.
2014-04-13T08:19:15Z White_Flame: I'm sure the native code jit does real CPU stack operations
2014-04-13T08:19:36Z stassats: real CPU stack?
2014-04-13T08:19:38Z ggole: That's certainly what I would expect
2014-04-13T08:19:58Z White_Flame: but the hot code swapping is generally toggling between native & interpreted code, so in those cases the location of the stack frames are different
2014-04-13T08:20:14Z ggole: You want to use the "real" CPU stack if possible because there is built-in prediction machinery for that
2014-04-13T08:20:41Z stassats: it is just any old piece of memory
2014-04-13T08:20:52Z ggole: The memory is: the stack pointer is not
2014-04-13T08:22:12Z White_Flame: and the main point of the JVM interpreter is to do metrics, not to maximize speed anyway, so I wouldn't be surprised if the interpreter was true to the model in terms of doing heap-allocated stack frames
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2014-04-13T08:23:03Z stassats: ggole: that's too x86-centric!
2014-04-13T08:23:35Z ggole: I believe other hardware does it too, like Power
2014-04-13T08:23:37Z ggole: (Could be wrong.)
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2014-04-13T08:24:14Z stassats: you can use any register as a stack pointer on PPC, except when restricted by the ABI
2014-04-13T08:24:31Z White_Flame: the Mill does it as well, though that's theoretical at this point
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2014-04-13T08:35:02Z ggole: ARM too http://infocenter.arm.com/help/index.jsp?topic=/com.arm.doc.ddi0438c/BABGEAEF.html
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2014-04-13T10:41:37Z jaimef: (dissasemble) is pretty damn neat
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2014-04-13T10:46:23Z francogrex: it could be neater in some lisps
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2014-04-13T13:37:19Z oleo: if there's a macro-char defined for say ] how do you undefine that ?
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2014-04-13T13:38:01Z beach: clhs set-syntax-from-char
2014-04-13T13:38:01Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_set_sy.htm
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2014-04-13T13:39:22Z oleo:  (get-macro-character #\]) -> sb-impl::read-right-paren
2014-04-13T13:39:57Z oleo: especially if i don't want to reset the whole readtable.....
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2014-04-13T13:40:13Z beach: oleo: Set the syntax of #\] to what you want as specbot suggested.
2014-04-13T13:40:40Z oleo: beach the problem is i don't get what is meant there.....
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2014-04-13T13:42:45Z oleo: so i'd use it like (set-syntax-from-char #\] #\]) ?
2014-04-13T13:43:35Z beach: No, pick a character c that you want #\] to behave like.  Then do (set-syntax-from-char #\] c)
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2014-04-13T13:43:50Z oleo: ahha
2014-04-13T13:44:07Z oleo: no i meant to unset, the above does unset it
2014-04-13T13:44:26Z beach: Before you set it, what was it?
2014-04-13T13:44:28Z oleo: (get-macro-character #\]) -> nil now
2014-04-13T13:44:36Z beach: Probably a constituent.
2014-04-13T13:44:41Z oleo: it was sb-impl:read-right-paren or so
2014-04-13T13:46:06Z beach: For example, normally, \#] and #\? have the same character syntax.
2014-04-13T13:46:25Z beach: So you can do (set-syntax-from-char #\] #\?)
2014-04-13T13:46:43Z beach: But what it was before is not saved anywhere so you can't "unset" it.
2014-04-13T13:47:11Z beach: You can reset the entire readtable to what it was before if you want.
2014-04-13T13:47:24Z oleo: i didn't want that....
2014-04-13T13:47:50Z beach: Did you set it by accident?  Do you want to set it and then unset it?
2014-04-13T13:47:55Z beach: Explain a bit more.
2014-04-13T13:48:16Z oleo: no it was set from onlisp-app.lisp or onlisp-util.lisp
2014-04-13T13:48:31Z oleo: and on loading my lol-book.lisp i would get an error....
2014-04-13T13:48:42Z beach: OK, before loading those, copy the readtable.
2014-04-13T13:48:49Z oleo: for the forth stuff dealing with ]
2014-04-13T13:48:54Z beach: After loading, copy the saved readtable to the current one.
2014-04-13T13:49:29Z oleo: oi oi oi oi oi
2014-04-13T13:49:42Z oleo: well i have to think .....
2014-04-13T13:49:49Z beach: Anything wrong with that?
2014-04-13T13:50:11Z oleo: well i'm already resetting the readtable at the start of my initfile
2014-04-13T13:50:23Z oleo: and the loading of those files happens in a defun.....
2014-04-13T13:50:31Z oleo: sequentially....right after the other.....
2014-04-13T13:50:38Z beach: (let ((*readtable* (copy-readtable))) (load "onlisp-app.lisp"))
2014-04-13T13:51:14Z beach: (let ((*readtable* (copy-readtable))) (function-that-loads-those...))
2014-04-13T13:51:37Z oleo: wait then i used the let inside the defun not around it....
2014-04-13T13:51:42Z oleo: let me rearrange....
2014-04-13T13:52:05Z beach: Are you worried that copying readtables is slow?
2014-04-13T13:52:38Z oleo: no i already have done what you did more or less and it didn't work in my listener somehow....
2014-04-13T13:52:49Z oleo: that's why i was worried....
2014-04-13T13:53:54Z oleo: i have (defun lold () (progn (load "file1.lisp") (let ((*readtable* (copy-readtable nil))) (load "file2.lisp").......
2014-04-13T13:54:35Z oleo: and still had the sb-impl:read-right-paren stuff....
2014-04-13T13:54:51Z oleo: so file1 was setting it up....or so....
2014-04-13T13:55:07Z oleo: or is
2014-04-13T13:55:18Z beach: Looks like it would be easy to rearrange so that it will work.
2014-04-13T13:55:30Z oleo: yes ok i'll do now and see....
2014-04-13T13:57:26Z beach: Sorry, need to go.  BBL.
2014-04-13T13:57:30Z oleo: ok
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2014-04-13T14:12:59Z oleo: found a better way....
2014-04-13T14:13:30Z oleo: added the unsetting of those chars into the lol-book.lisp file itself just where they are being defined to used for something else....
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2014-04-13T14:14:12Z oleo: that way reloading of that file from the repl works too....
2014-04-13T14:14:18Z oleo: otherwise you get the same error....
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2014-04-13T14:45:44Z PuercoPop: I had a separate asd file for the test package, Now I am putting the test system definition in the same asd file as the system it is testing but asdf is still looking at the old file. How I a 'refresh' asdf's data?
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2014-04-13T15:08:37Z Xach: asdf:clear-system might do it
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2014-04-13T15:18:24Z PuercoPop: It works appears to clear it (I tested with asdf:registered-p) but it still looks for the test system in its own asd file when I try to quickload it again.
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2014-04-13T15:20:07Z oleo: remove cached fasls, remove the test file in the .asd definition from the components section
2014-04-13T15:20:19Z oleo: if you moved the tests anyway.....
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2014-04-13T15:25:19Z PuercoPop: oleo: done and done, no luck still
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2014-04-13T15:26:07Z oleo: did you try :force t too ?
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2014-04-13T15:31:01Z PuercoPop: oleo: I hadn't (did now). But the error thrown is that it can't find the true name of the file I had just deleted can't see how forcing can help
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2014-04-13T15:40:53Z PuercoPop: I want to specialize a generic function on a symbol, but generic functions can only be specialize on types and classes so I try to do (deftype empty-stack () (eql 'empty-stack)) to no avail. Is there another workaround, am I using deftype wrong?
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2014-04-13T15:41:48Z Xach: PuercoPop: the syntax is (defmethod empty-stack ((symbol (eql 'empty-stack))) ...)
2014-04-13T15:42:07Z Xach: PuercoPop: standard generic functions cannot specialize on types, only classes and eql things.
2014-04-13T15:43:35Z PuercoPop: Xach: is there any reason why wouldn't print-object change the way the symbol is displayed? because I started doing that
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2014-04-13T15:46:14Z Xach: Good question. I don't know, sorry.
2014-04-13T15:46:21Z Xach can't look it up at the moment either
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2014-04-13T15:48:08Z gp5st: hello. I'm running through sicp and hence using scheme/racket for the moment (I plan to move to clojure at some point, but that's besides the point). in (define dbl (lambda (x) (* x x))) why isn't the first x, the formal param of the lambda, executed as a function?  Is this just a special exception to the rule or is there some other rules I'm not aware of?  I guess I would have expected it to be (define dbl (lambda '(x) (* x x))) with the param
2014-04-13T15:48:31Z PuercoPop: ok, so I'll assume it was working property except for the printing part. Thanks for clearing things up.
2014-04-13T15:48:51Z gp5st: sorry, I didn't realize this was CL and that there is a scheme channel
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2014-04-13T19:45:28Z oleo: i can't load xpx-code.lisp into sbcl what's the issue ?
2014-04-13T19:49:12Z Xach: Your inability to communicate effectively.
2014-04-13T19:49:27Z Xach: Start by sharing, perhaps, what happens when you try.
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2014-04-13T19:54:56Z oleo: what is (format s #"~:<~@{~W~^, ~_~}~:>" args) indicative of ? especially the format s #" part......
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2014-04-13T19:56:43Z Bike: Must be a reader macro defined by whatevr this is.
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2014-04-13T19:59:33Z Bike: as for what it does, basically a comma separated list.
2014-04-13T20:00:21Z oleo: i get a read error during compile file: xpx-code.lisp line 100
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2014-04-13T20:00:35Z Bike: Am I supposed to know what xpx-code is?
2014-04-13T20:01:01Z oleo: it's the xp pretty printer code for when there's already pretty-printing implemented in your lisp implementation.....
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2014-04-13T20:01:48Z oleo: it does pretty printing from lisp to pascal
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2014-04-13T20:04:34Z H4ns: oleo: you're probably working on something big, but we cannot know what it is and if your refer to its internals, you leave us with no clue as to what the problem could be.
2014-04-13T20:05:13Z H4ns: oleo: so you either need to describe what you're working on more clearly so that we can figure out what the system is, or you need to reduce your problems to common lisp problems.
2014-04-13T20:06:00Z oleo: H4sn: it's the code from http://www.merl.com/publications/docs/TR93-17.pdf which is already in clocc/src/io/xp/
2014-04-13T20:06:38Z H4ns: oleo: maybe you can share a url to the source?
2014-04-13T20:06:45Z stassats: i don't think oleo ever wants to get any help
2014-04-13T20:06:52Z stassats: just saying things out loud
2014-04-13T20:07:35Z oleo: https://github.com/blindglobe/clocc/blob/master/src/io/xp/xpx-code.lisp
2014-04-13T20:07:43Z Bike: H4ns: there's some in the pdf. looks like it should work by just removing the # in #", which oleo probably hasn't done because this is oleo
2014-04-13T20:08:00Z H4ns: ah, it is oleo, i did not know that this is a brand
2014-04-13T20:08:16Z oleo: yes i thought about removing it but was not sure .....
2014-04-13T20:08:26Z oleo: that's why i'm asking....
2014-04-13T20:08:41Z Bike: not sure what? that removing it would destroy your system somehow? have some brass
2014-04-13T20:09:25Z stassats: H4ns: it undergoes rebranding once in a while
2014-04-13T20:09:34Z stassats: (doesn't help much)
2014-04-13T20:09:37Z H4ns: k
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2014-04-13T20:24:59Z Sir_herrbatka: how good multithreading in the lisp is?
2014-04-13T20:26:38Z H4ns: Sir_herrbatka: very good.
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2014-04-13T20:33:59Z p_l: or, as good as typical multi-threading with OS threads is.
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2014-04-13T20:35:09Z |3b| supposes it is a bit late to mention that the docs for that xpx thing mention the #" reader macro within the first 2 paragraphs
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2014-04-13T20:38:33Z Bike: looks like #"foo" is basically (formatter "foo")
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2014-04-13T20:42:59Z oleo: and i say i can't give that to my repl....
2014-04-13T20:43:59Z oleo: (set-pprint-dispatch
2014-04-13T20:43:59Z oleo:   '(cons (member setq))
2014-04-13T20:43:59Z oleo:   #"~<~*~1@{~W :=~_ ~W~}~:>"
2014-04-13T20:43:59Z oleo:   0 *PD*)
2014-04-13T20:44:10Z oleo: my repl does not want that.....
2014-04-13T20:44:15Z oleo: it hangs....
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2014-04-13T20:44:38Z oleo: neither does the direct loading of that file succeed.....
2014-04-13T20:44:40Z prxq: well, oleo, there's a nice puzzle to figure out. Isn't it exciting?
2014-04-13T20:45:19Z oleo: i tried #,@"....." too
2014-04-13T20:46:10Z oleo: heh prxq
2014-04-13T20:46:13Z prxq: did you try #!@,&?
2014-04-13T20:46:25Z oleo: ?
2014-04-13T20:48:29Z prxq: oleo: ,@"..." does not make sense. Why did you try it?
2014-04-13T20:49:46Z oleo: yes that was nonsense.....
2014-04-13T20:50:20Z Sir_herrbatka: H4ns: ok, that's enough for me
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2014-04-13T20:56:36Z Bike: oleo: you have to install the system first. this is in the readme. stop wasting our time.
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2014-04-13T21:23:27Z therik: H4ns: very good?
2014-04-13T21:23:59Z therik: H4ns: I really really like to hear that
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2014-04-13T21:28:52Z oleo: allright i see
2014-04-13T21:29:01Z oleo: i can't install that.....
2014-04-13T21:29:43Z oleo: have to instead copy all the relevant functions and the dispatchers from there.....
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2014-04-13T22:24:17Z cheryllium: hey, does anyone have a pdf of Lisp in Small Pieces?
2014-04-13T22:25:57Z Bike: doubt it's a good idea to ask for warez here
2014-04-13T22:26:45Z cheryllium: okay... sorry :/
2014-04-13T22:27:05Z cheryllium: why are the prices for it so high?
2014-04-13T22:28:12Z nyef: Because it's a limited market (small audience), and the publisher has to make money somehow.
2014-04-13T22:28:56Z nyef: You know, the basic rule for academic publications.
2014-04-13T22:29:16Z Bike: terrible that it is.
2014-04-13T22:29:22Z nyef: Alternately, because the publisher figured they could get away with it, and there hasn't exactly been a glut on the market afterwards to drive the used market price down.
2014-04-13T22:30:17Z Bike: heh, i tried to look it up on the publisher's site and got a 404. academia.
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2014-04-14T00:41:06Z zRecursive: clhs &aux
2014-04-14T00:41:07Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_da.htm
2014-04-14T00:41:58Z Quadrescence: zRecursive, it's LET* in disguise
2014-04-14T00:46:21Z zRecursive: Quadrescence: i personally prefer to let*
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2014-04-14T00:47:45Z Quadrescence: zRecursive, Yeah, that way you have long ugly lambda lists that you have to change if your &AUX argument becomes any bit more complicated.
2014-04-14T00:48:11Z zRecursive: yeah
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2014-04-14T00:52:15Z phadthai: the rare case where I found &AUX elegant was when the values strictly depended on the arguments and were required early in the function body, and treated as arguments by the function;  I think that I only actually used it once in my CL code base so far
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2014-04-14T00:57:57Z zRecursive: few cases
2014-04-14T00:58:39Z Xach: &aux is an interesting code fingerprint feature. i've seen it a lot more in the past couple years than i ever saw as I was learning
2014-04-14T01:00:13Z Quadrescence: I used to think &aux did something much cooler than it actually does.
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2014-04-14T01:00:55Z Quadrescence: I used to think it was an extra parameter you could pass to the function being called recursively, so you can do accumulator-style recursion without defining two functions or without using LABELS.
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2014-04-14T01:02:58Z Quadrescence: because in Scheme you usually define FOO in terms of FOO-AUX, and FOO-AUX does the heavy lifting with extra parameters.
2014-04-14T01:03:00Z zRecursive: exxtra parameter ?  how about &rest ?
2014-04-14T01:04:05Z phadthai: Quadrescence: I've seen similar cases with CL using %FOO vs FOO-AUX also
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2014-04-14T01:04:29Z Quadrescence: zRecursive, I would never use &REST for this purpose.
2014-04-14T01:04:46Z Quadrescence: The closest I *might* use if I was feeling particularly hacky is &OPTIONAL.
2014-04-14T01:06:14Z zRecursive: i still used to reagard &aux as alternatives of let*
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2014-04-14T01:06:42Z zRecursive: s/reagard/regard
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2014-04-14T01:08:16Z Quadrescence: using &REST as an alternative is not a very good option at all
2014-04-14T01:08:38Z zRecursive: i see
2014-04-14T01:08:45Z Quadrescence: Embrace LET*!
2014-04-14T01:11:55Z zRecursive: As Xach said, &AUX is used little in modern CL codes
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2014-04-14T01:28:27Z zRecursive: I forget how to fix "grovel-headers.c:549: error: 'page_index_t' undeclared (first use in this function)" when building sbcl on freebsd, any light ?
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2014-04-14T02:29:28Z Fare: Hi.
2014-04-14T02:29:29Z axion: how can i guarantee SORT doesnt remove items in a call to it within a LOOP form?
2014-04-14T02:29:44Z axion: seems to be destroying them. yes i know its destructive, but how to prevent?
2014-04-14T02:29:48Z Fare: Should #+os-macosx be exclusive with #+os-unix or should the former imply the latter?
2014-04-14T02:30:17Z Fare: Should #+os-windows be exclusive with #+os-unix? If so, which should #+cygwin imply?
2014-04-14T02:32:47Z phadthai: axion: the easiest way is to make a copy, other solutions might be using third party sort libraries which might be nondestructive
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2014-04-14T02:34:41Z axion: (defun (data) (let ((sorted data)) (sort sorted) sorted)
2014-04-14T02:34:46Z axion: something like that?
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2014-04-14T02:34:58Z axion: with a functio nname ofc :P
2014-04-14T02:35:17Z axion: heh that whole form is screw up, but you get the idea
2014-04-14T02:36:23Z phadthai: see http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_cp_seq.htm
2014-04-14T02:37:15Z axion: and this will prevent even the copy of being damaged?
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2014-04-14T02:37:58Z phadthai: you could also sort the copy instead of sorting the original
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2014-04-14T02:39:43Z axion: ok thanks
2014-04-14T02:39:51Z phadthai: it might depend as one could also use custom predicates, but sort might destructively affect the order references (i.e. in the case of a list, the conses), not the referenced objects themselves
2014-04-14T02:40:36Z axion: ive just pinpointed a bug that after a period of a few hours of a loop running, gradually removes items (the loop sorts the results every iteration)
2014-04-14T02:40:47Z phadthai: but reusing a list after sort might yield unpredictable results like lost conses etc
2014-04-14T02:40:57Z axion: so i should do (sort (copy-seq input))
2014-04-14T02:42:06Z Xach: axion: maybe! can you give more context? maybe there's an even better option.
2014-04-14T02:43:17Z axion: i am sorting a huge plist by key values
2014-04-14T02:43:36Z Xach: Just once?
2014-04-14T02:43:44Z axion: once per minute within a loop context
2014-04-14T02:43:49Z Xach: Why?
2014-04-14T02:43:53Z axion: list changes every minute
2014-04-14T02:44:00Z phadthai: axion: I faced the same type of bug twice in my own code, it seems that the first time wasn't enough for me to remember; ideally such a destructive function would be named nsort for consistency
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2014-04-14T02:44:46Z Quadrescence: axion, perhaps you should have a data structure that remains sorted upon update
2014-04-14T02:44:55Z Quadrescence: e.g. a balanced binary tree
2014-04-14T02:45:47Z axion: ok thanks for the suggestion. definitely look into it
2014-04-14T02:45:58Z axion: appreciate the insight guys
2014-04-14T02:50:46Z phadthai: Fare: I have the impression that mutually-exclusive os-windows/os-unix would make sense, with cygwin usage avoiding winapi and possibly also being considered os-unix, but it makes me wonder, would cygwin software also want to use winapi?  If so, shouldn't it instead use vs or mingw though?  Also, does MS still support its POSIX compatibility layer suite?  That'd be another cygwin-like scenario...
2014-04-14T02:53:22Z Fare: phadthai: I don't have answers to these questions. I haven't touched a windows machine in years
2014-04-14T02:53:33Z Fare: I never used mingw
2014-04-14T02:53:46Z phadthai: it's similar for me, although I used mingw 10 or so years ago
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2014-04-14T02:54:22Z Fare: I suspect that cygwin, since it heavily emulates unix and not at all windows, should be #+os-unix and not #+os-windows
2014-04-14T02:54:25Z phadthai: hopefully others have more useful answers
2014-04-14T02:54:31Z Fare: I don't know and don't understand mingw, so I can't comment.
2014-04-14T02:55:01Z phadthai: I agree for cygwin
2014-04-14T02:56:27Z phadthai: in my case, mingw was used with winapi only, but it provided a little help like conversion of unix-style pathnames to win32 ones internally
2014-04-14T02:57:12Z phadthai: well actually, also with other libraries, but portable ones like SDL
2014-04-14T02:57:52Z phadthai: (not cygwin ports, native win32 ports)
2014-04-14T02:58:31Z phadthai: it still has the advantage today of not needing a msvc runtime install
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2014-04-14T02:59:17Z phadthai: (which oddly enough doesn't come with windows)
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2014-04-14T05:17:15Z mzgcz: why (subtypep '(vector double-float 100) '(array number *)) is error?
2014-04-14T05:18:16Z Quadrescence: mzgcz, I do not get an error.
2014-04-14T05:19:18Z mzgcz: Quadrescence, I means why the result is nil
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2014-04-14T05:29:10Z Quadrescence: mzgcz, I explained this in my post here: http://symbo1ics.com/blog/?p=1845
2014-04-14T05:29:28Z Quadrescence: Namely the section titled "Arrays"
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2014-04-14T05:29:42Z phadthai: I get NIL on SBCL and ECL, but CLisp returns T; I didn't check the spec about it yet, but possibly that implementations which can specialize arrays on types will return NIL
2014-04-14T05:30:16Z Quadrescence: phadthai, you are essentially right in your guess
2014-04-14T05:30:45Z Quadrescence: if S is a subtype of T, then (vector S) is *NOT* necessarily a subtype of (vector T)!
2014-04-14T05:30:47Z phadthai: (when those types don't exactly match, of course)
2014-04-14T05:34:47Z phadthai: mzgcz: you could perhaps use upgraded-element-type and still achieve what you wanted with a little work
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2014-04-14T05:36:30Z phadthai: and/or upgraded-array-element-type
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2014-04-14T05:37:10Z Zhivago: Which is kind of silly. It should be a subtype but not necessarily a subclass.
2014-04-14T05:39:09Z zRecursive: It depends how to define "subtype" ?
2014-04-14T05:40:21Z zRecursive: Since (subtypep 'double-float 'number) => T , we canot say its colletion meets the relation too
2014-04-14T05:41:06Z Quadrescence: common lisp (sub)types are leaky abstractions
2014-04-14T05:43:05Z zRecursive: Unless the primitive type is covariant ?
2014-04-14T05:44:17Z Quadrescence: zRecursive, employing tautologies is not a useful way to introduce more type theoretic words
2014-04-14T05:45:58Z zRecursive: We can say a double-float isA number, but we canot say a vector of double-float is an array of number. it depends on implementation though.
2014-04-14T05:46:16Z Quadrescence: thanks, we have already said this, and i have already linked to an article about this
2014-04-14T05:46:50Z zRecursive: hehe
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2014-04-14T05:49:45Z Zhivago: If you clearly distinguish between type and class then the problem goes away.
2014-04-14T05:50:03Z mzgcz: Quadrescence, thanks for your sharing. zRecursive , there are two simple subtypes. vector and array, double-float and number. From SBCL and Clisp, It depends on implementation.
2014-04-14T05:50:08Z Zhivago: We can say that a vector of double-float is an array of number, but we can't say that it has the same implementation as an array of number.
2014-04-14T05:50:27Z Zhivago: The first is a type issue, the second a class issue.
2014-04-14T05:50:59Z Zhivago: The problem is that classes were bolted on, and types had been abused for class-like logic in some cases.
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2014-04-14T05:52:28Z Zhivago: You have a similar issue with fixnum and bignum, which are defined as types, but should have been defined as classes.
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2014-04-14T05:55:05Z zRecursive: Both (class-of '(array double-float 100)) and (class-of '(array number *)) return #<BUILT-IN-CLASS CONS>
2014-04-14T05:55:53Z Quadrescence: zRecursive, maybe because '(foo) is a cons cell?
2014-04-14T05:56:09Z Zhivago: Lists are like that. :)
2014-04-14T05:57:26Z zRecursive: my error :)
2014-04-14T05:58:05Z Zhivago: class-of on a type specifier doesn't make much sense.
2014-04-14T05:58:42Z Zhivago: But you could try it on instances, and there you'd be interested finding a common super-class other than T.
2014-04-14T05:58:53Z zRecursive: how about type-of ?
2014-04-14T05:59:01Z Zhivago: Type-of also wants an instance.
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2014-04-14T06:00:44Z Quadrescence: What are you attempting to do?
2014-04-14T06:01:54Z zRecursive: #(1 2 3) is an vector inistance, how to describe an array instance ?
2014-04-14T06:02:39Z Quadrescence: (vector s n) == (array s (n))
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2014-04-14T06:03:24Z Zhivago: A vector is defined as an array of one dimension.
2014-04-14T06:03:54Z Zhivago: Personally, I'd have rather have defined an array as a dimensional structuring upon a vector.
2014-04-14T06:04:09Z Zhivago: And then row-major-aref would just be vref.
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2014-04-14T06:17:33Z zRecursive: It is easy to abuse type and class in CL ?
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2014-04-14T06:19:44Z mzgcz: It's a practice in lisp-koans
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2014-04-14T06:36:07Z Zhivago: It depends on what 'abuse' means.
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2014-04-14T06:41:57Z Quadrescence: The answer is "yes" is for any reasonable definition of abuse.
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2014-04-14T07:22:10Z zRecursive: If not using CLOS, can i just only care about 'type ?
2014-04-14T07:22:55Z Zhivago: Probably.
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2014-04-14T08:35:27Z pjb: Fare: Since feature operators are NOT AND OR, features should represent mathematical sets.  Cygwin is both a subset of windows and of unix.  Darwin and linux are both subset of unix.  unix and windows (when the posix support is installed) are both subsets of posix.
2014-04-14T08:36:08Z pjb: You can always write things like: #+(and posix (not windows)) #+(and unix (not darwin)) etc.
2014-04-14T08:37:49Z CrazyWoods: which web server are prefer on production use?
2014-04-14T08:37:58Z pjb: I use hunchentoot.
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2014-04-14T08:40:28Z CrazyWoods: pjb: how about the performance
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2014-04-14T08:40:46Z pjb: It serves about one page every month.  I get excellent performance.
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2014-04-14T08:41:33Z H4ns: CrazyWoods: what are your performance requirements?
2014-04-14T08:42:44Z CrazyWoods: H4ns: About 1000 req/s
2014-04-14T08:43:17Z H4ns: CrazyWoods: you won't get there with hunchentoot if you desire dynamically rendered content for every request.
2014-04-14T08:45:05Z Fare: pjb: I suppose the ultimate question is: what APIs are available or recommended in cygwin or mingw modes — if unix and not windows, then os-unix and not os-windows make sense
2014-04-14T08:45:23Z Fare: if both unix and windows, then both os-unix and os-windows
2014-04-14T08:45:52Z Fare: in the end, I suppose e.g. pathnames can't be both unix and windows, so the two should be mutually exclusive, and cygwin should probably be os-unix
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2014-04-14T08:47:47Z CrazyWoods: H4ns: then which one shall i choice?
2014-04-14T08:47:50Z H4ns: CrazyWoods: but let me point out that a server that is able to actually serve and sustain 1000 requests/sec in a real-world scenario is not easy to build and requires much more than a general statement of the form "hunchentoot can do that".  there are many more variables to consider, and hunchentoot could well be sufficiently fast to deal with the traffic if you qualify your needs better.
2014-04-14T08:49:02Z CrazyWoods: H4ns: ok
2014-04-14T08:49:07Z H4ns: CrazyWoods: or, to answer your question differently: get professional help :)
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2014-04-14T08:52:54Z CrazyWoods: H4ns: it seems other language have concurrency build in, not sure how to achieve it using lisp
2014-04-14T08:53:43Z H4ns: CrazyWoods: start by experimenting and reading.
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2014-04-14T08:54:15Z H4ns: CrazyWoods: nobody can tell you "do this and that, achieve 1000reqs/sec".
2014-04-14T08:54:50Z H4ns: CrazyWoods: it is also largely language-independent in that you can fail or succeed in many languages, but you will require expert knowledge of both the language and the underlying operating system.
2014-04-14T08:56:02Z CrazyWoods: H4ns: :)
2014-04-14T08:57:37Z Fare: CrazyWoods: there are many ways to get performance with Lisp applications.
2014-04-14T08:58:13Z Fare: at ITA, we found that for our applications, database access was the bottleneck.
2014-04-14T08:58:27Z theos: H4ns is there a test that i can run to get an estimate of how many req/sec hunchentoot can server on my system?
2014-04-14T08:58:46Z theos: without modifications that is
2014-04-14T08:58:47Z Fare: also, note that concurrency cannot usually be retrofitted easily in an application that wasn't designed with concurrency in mind.
2014-04-14T08:58:53Z Fare: and isn't pure, either.
2014-04-14T08:59:24Z H4ns: theos: you write your application or a few handlers that behave like your application will behave, then you use a generic load tester like ab or tsung to see how the system behaves.
2014-04-14T08:59:32Z dim: database access is very often the bottleneck even in well designed applications, because that's where most of the work is done, or where the only work that depend on the speed of storage is done, anything else using only cpu/ram/network
2014-04-14T08:59:32Z Fare: theos: there are various benchmark programs that can hit your server.
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2014-04-14T08:59:55Z H4ns: theos: there is no such thing like "the generic hunchentoot application" that could work as a benchmark and have any meaning.
2014-04-14T08:59:56Z dim: I'll wholeheartedly second H4ns proposal to use tsung here
2014-04-14T09:00:09Z theos: H4ns i understand
2014-04-14T09:00:13Z Fare: dim: depending on your storage solution, storage may be cpu/ram/network, too :-)
2014-04-14T09:00:39Z dim: often enough, you want to use storage that doesn't disappear in case of power reboot
2014-04-14T09:00:50Z stassats: router's cache!
2014-04-14T09:00:51Z H4ns: only postgres can do that, we know it.
2014-04-14T09:00:52Z dim: so at the end somewhere it's not ram
2014-04-14T09:01:04Z dim: H4ns: that's not even fair, but I'll take it ;-)
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2014-04-14T09:01:30Z dim for once was trying hard to avoid specifics
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2014-04-14T09:28:20Z solidus_: what does #+, #- mean?
2014-04-14T09:28:37Z pjb: It means that you need to read chapter 2 of clhs.
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2014-04-14T09:28:56Z pjb: clhs #+
2014-04-14T09:28:56Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhq.htm
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2014-04-14T09:30:19Z Fare: dim: it depends how much you trust your distributed network
2014-04-14T09:30:25Z solidus_: so when I see something like "#+ SBCL" does it mean it checks if SBCL is defined?
2014-04-14T09:30:41Z solidus_: because SBCL is not defined as a symbol...
2014-04-14T09:30:59Z dim: see *features*
2014-04-14T09:31:08Z pjb: solidus_: it checks (member :sbcl *features*)
2014-04-14T09:31:35Z solidus_: oh cool, that's alot clearer than "an aspect or attribute of Common Lisp" :)
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2014-04-14T09:34:52Z pjb: Fare: in cygwin you can use both unix and MS-Windows pathnames.  ls "/cygdrive/c/some/path" or  ls "C:/some/path" (it issues a warning on the later if the environment variable nodosfilewarning is not set).
2014-04-14T09:36:51Z pjb: In clisp on cygwin, both paths work too.
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2014-04-14T11:20:00Z dim: so, I think I have figured out 2 ways how to ship CL software out of 3 that I'm interested into: a. hackers: Quicklisp b. end users: buildapp and ship a self-contained executable c. packagers / advanced users: they want an easy way to reproduce the build
2014-04-14T11:20:38Z dim: I would appreciate help on how to best address "packagers" (for lack of a better caracterisation) users who want to go from sources but don't want to setup a full CL development environment
2014-04-14T11:21:19Z dim: it seems other platforms have lots of tools (too many) for those guys, easy_install and pip and all in python, gem in ruby, etc
2014-04-14T11:21:20Z Xach: dim: i'm not sure how that can be avoided. if you get C source, you usually need to get Make, a C compiler, etc, to build.
2014-04-14T11:21:49Z dim: yeah but apt-get build-dep <package> and read the INSTALL file, and there you go
2014-04-14T11:22:11Z dim: I tried that for QL, the Makefile will clone some git repos and use Quicklisp for the other dependencies
2014-04-14T11:22:40Z dim: it's not easy enough yet, either because my Makefile is not complete (which is true) or because we're lacking some glue code still, hence my question
2014-04-14T11:23:16Z dim: should I continue alone trying to find a nice way around or is there a principled way at solving the problem that I'm bound to discover, and for which the tooling we have isn't a solution?
2014-04-14T11:23:27Z Xach: I'm not sure what can be done, sorry. With python or ruby, there's generally one single dominant implementation. Same with C, etc.
2014-04-14T11:23:40Z Xach: And one single dominant way to do many other things.
2014-04-14T11:24:05Z dim: python would be a nice example for that, CPython / Pypi / Jythin
2014-04-14T11:24:14Z dim: and Ruby and JRuby
2014-04-14T11:24:25Z dim: but ok except for pypi that's second class citizen
2014-04-14T11:24:32Z Xach: Really? Is the experience of installation and hacking as smooth and clear for the non-dominant versions?
2014-04-14T11:24:43Z Xach: I don't have that impression, but I don't use them much.
2014-04-14T11:24:52Z dim: I'll ask around, a good friend of mine is a python devel in the OpenStack team, he knows about such things
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2014-04-14T11:25:20Z dim: so your view would be that I need to improve my Makefile and situation, it's my own problem here, not something that CL as a whole needs to improve on?
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2014-04-14T11:27:45Z dim: 4    "foreign function __select"                             98.93  98.93  98.94
2014-04-14T11:27:52Z dim: not the most useful profile I've ever seen
2014-04-14T11:28:19Z dim: I think I forgot how to have slime-sprof care for threads
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2014-04-14T11:28:59Z Xach: dim: No, I wish it was so easy and smooth for all involved, but I don't know which aspect of improvement will yield good results, or even what the big picture of the aspects of improvment is.
2014-04-14T11:29:15Z Xach: I do feel like CL isn't uniquely challenged in this regard, though.
2014-04-14T11:29:19Z dim: ok, so you're actually up-to-speed with my understanding of things ;-)
2014-04-14T11:29:30Z dim: yeah it's not a unique problem
2014-04-14T11:29:42Z Xach: It's hard all over unless a lot of time is invested to improve it
2014-04-14T11:29:53Z Xach: Or the practice of years makes a nasty road familiar
2014-04-14T11:29:54Z dim: I just wish it was easier to answer to those users who want to rebuild your app from source, yet don't want to use it within M-x slime
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2014-04-14T11:33:56Z Xach: yeah, me too.
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2014-04-14T11:34:40Z dim: on the other hand, I can't help but wonder why some "power-users" want to have it easy without installing a dev env
2014-04-14T11:35:23Z dim: I just don't get it, if you want to hack and build it, just consider yourself a developer, it's easier... yet they don't want to see how it's done, just type "make" and see the tool build and use it
2014-04-14T11:35:42Z dim: as you say, that might be they got used to hack in C and now consider those tools the standard ones
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2014-04-14T11:44:54Z kanru: make a command line front-end for quicklisp? to setup a environment will be
2014-04-14T11:44:58Z kanru: $ ql init && ql install-dep && buildapp
2014-04-14T11:45:46Z dim: well that's about what my current Makefile does
2014-04-14T11:46:09Z dim: with some special repositories because I need some version that didn't make it to QL yet
2014-04-14T11:46:23Z dim: I think it's down to improving my current Makefile at this point
2014-04-14T11:47:46Z dim: is there a way to easily know if the sbcl in the path supports --compress-core?
2014-04-14T11:48:36Z samebchase: s
2014-04-14T11:48:43Z samebchase: sorry
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2014-04-14T12:04:16Z dim: ok even with using (sb-sprof:start-profiling) I don't get threads details
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2014-04-14T14:00:54Z oleo: morning
2014-04-14T14:02:16Z phadthai: hell
2014-04-14T14:02:16Z phadthai: o
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2014-04-14T14:19:19Z pjb: Good time!
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2014-04-14T15:32:40Z JokesOnYou77: Hi all. Can anyone point me to resources for learning about how to use the Bable character encoding library?  There don't seem to be any docs on the github or the website
2014-04-14T15:33:41Z Bike: http://quickdocs.org/babel/api ?
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2014-04-14T15:37:31Z JokesOnYou77: Bike, I looked at that.  But it doesn't realyl provide any example of how to actually use babel.  Do you know of anything that demonstrates the usage?  I'm trying to parse csv files that are in UTF-8 and I'm trying to figure out if babel is the right thing for it
2014-04-14T15:37:59Z H4ns: JokesOnYou77: you probably don't need babel at all.  all you need to do is open the file with the right :external-format
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2014-04-14T15:38:20Z H4ns: JokesOnYou77: all useful lisp implementations support utf-8 as external format nowadays.
2014-04-14T15:38:24Z nyef: ... Does babel support various line-terminator conventions?
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2014-04-14T15:39:12Z Bike: JokesOnYou77: well, there's a list of things that use babel on the /babel page, but H4ns is probably right
2014-04-14T15:39:52Z nyef: (Actually, I think that fare-csv might cover the line ending conventions thing, and I doubt that babel covers mac-os-roman.)
2014-04-14T15:39:56Z Bike: nyef: pretty sure, given "An EXTERNAL-FORMAT consists in a combination of a Babel
2014-04-14T15:39:58Z Bike: CHARACTER-ENCODING and an end-of-line style." etc
2014-04-14T15:40:04Z Bike: sorry, didn't expect the newline
2014-04-14T15:40:23Z nyef: Heh. Wrong end-of-line style? (-:
2014-04-14T15:40:24Z JokesOnYou77: LispWorks uses UTF-16 internally. What would the :external-format do?  There is some worry that excel can create bad csvs and/or jumbled unicode.  We don't have any control over how we get the files and we need to convert them into an internal struct
2014-04-14T15:40:39Z Bike: perhaps, perhaps
2014-04-14T15:40:52Z H4ns: JokesOnYou77: look up external formats in the lispworks documentation
2014-04-14T15:41:08Z nyef: JokesOnYou77: Just wait until you get a csv file in three separate encodings, two of which appear in different fields on the same line.
2014-04-14T15:41:09Z H4ns: JokesOnYou77: also, there is the lisphug mailing list which specifically covers lispworks.
2014-04-14T15:41:37Z Bike: looks like babel's eols are only cr, lf, and crlf, so if you're using something horrible you might have a problem
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2014-04-14T15:41:50Z nyef: Also, you might look into supporting at least .xlsx, which is a ZIP file with XML files in it.
2014-04-14T15:42:09Z H4ns: nyef: haha
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2014-04-14T15:42:17Z JokesOnYou77: We are in-fact trying to support xls(x)
2014-04-14T15:42:25Z phadthai: aren't there many xml-in-zip formats :)
2014-04-14T15:42:31Z H4ns: .xlsx is not simple at all.
2014-04-14T15:42:34Z nyef: H4ns: Which bit? The csv nightmare encoding, or supporting .xlsx?
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2014-04-14T15:43:02Z nyef: I didn't say that it was simple, I was merely tying to imply that a lot of the low-level parsing stuff is already available.
2014-04-14T15:43:39Z H4ns: for most lisp implementations, reading and writing csv files is the easiest way to interact with excel
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2014-04-14T15:44:03Z H4ns: if one has the option to interact with a jvm, using apache poi is a much better option.
2014-04-14T15:44:04Z nyef: On windows, however, there's also the possibility of COM Automation.
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2014-04-14T15:44:18Z H4ns: or that, true enough.  rdnzl works for that, i hear
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2014-04-14T15:44:45Z nyef: Who needs vowels, anyway?
2014-04-14T15:44:50Z JokesOnYou77: Ok, to sum up, first try the :external-format option to (open ) ?
2014-04-14T15:44:57Z H4ns: JokesOnYou77: right.
2014-04-14T15:45:02Z JokesOnYou77: or with-open-file or whatever
2014-04-14T15:45:08Z nyef: To with-open-file, there's rarely a good cause to use open.
2014-04-14T15:45:09Z JokesOnYou77: ok.
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2014-04-14T15:46:49Z Xavier`: hi
2014-04-14T15:46:54Z JokesOnYou77: There is one other concern which is that excel isn't properly standardized in how it creates the CSVs and/or that there could be invalid UTF-8 characters.  :/  It's been difficult
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2014-04-14T15:47:40Z H4ns: JokesOnYou77: hence .xls/.xlsx
2014-04-14T15:48:02Z H4ns: JokesOnYou77: maybe jfli is useful for you, together with apache poi.  i'm using abcl and apache poi for that purpose.
2014-04-14T15:48:46Z JokesOnYou77: H4ns, could you elaborate on that last bit?  I don't think I understand what you're talking about.
2014-04-14T15:49:13Z JokesOnYou77: Do you already have a project that supports csv,xls,xlsx into Lisp?
2014-04-14T15:49:21Z H4ns: JokesOnYou77: apache poi is a jvm library that can write and read microsoft formats.  to use it, you need a way to access jvm libraries from lisp.
2014-04-14T15:49:37Z JokesOnYou77: Our API is in Clojure
2014-04-14T15:50:02Z H4ns: JokesOnYou77: well, then you can call apache poi directly, no special deal required there.
2014-04-14T15:50:37Z H4ns: JokesOnYou77: there are also wrappers that make poi look more like a clojure library, but i forget the name and clojure is off-topic in #lisp
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2014-04-14T16:29:02Z solidus_: So... what is the difference between BORDEAUX-THREADS and SB-THREAD packages? it seems like they both have the exact same external symbols...
2014-04-14T16:29:16Z p_l: solidus_: bordeaux-threads is the portability library
2014-04-14T16:29:34Z p_l: sb-threads is SBCL-specific package that hosts SBCL's threads interface
2014-04-14T16:29:37Z solidus_: Portability across platforms or lisp implementations?
2014-04-14T16:29:58Z solidus_: okay, thanks
2014-04-14T16:30:03Z p_l: solidus_: yes
2014-04-14T16:30:43Z p_l: bordeaux-threads will work across many implementations (in the past, I had it working on SBCL, ACL, LW, CCL, ECL, and those are the ones I recall)
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2014-04-14T16:44:24Z hlavaty: JokesOnYou77: http://logand.com/sw/cl-olefs.html
2014-04-14T16:44:43Z hlavaty: i dont recommend the jvm route
2014-04-14T16:45:01Z hlavaty: cl-olefs is portable lisp and can read excel files
2014-04-14T16:45:16Z hlavaty: binary xls files i mean
2014-04-14T16:45:32Z H4ns: hlavaty: can it write, too?
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2014-04-14T16:45:37Z hlavaty: no
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2014-04-14T16:45:48Z hlavaty: there is no point in producing xls files
2014-04-14T16:45:52Z hlavaty: anymore
2014-04-14T16:46:04Z Xach: If your job requires it, quit!
2014-04-14T16:46:12Z H4ns: m|
2014-04-14T16:46:19Z H4ns: "schon gut"
2014-04-14T16:46:25Z hlavaty: if you need to produce a spreadsheet, it's rather easy to create xlsx file, if you dont need many fancy features
2014-04-14T16:46:28Z Xach: Pascal J. Bourguignomics
2014-04-14T16:46:33Z nyef: hlavaty: Sweet! Thank you!
2014-04-14T16:46:58Z p_l: hlavaty: Excel 2003 XML is arguably nicer
2014-04-14T16:47:04Z jasom: hlavaty: xls files are the most reliable interchange format
2014-04-14T16:47:18Z hlavaty: yes
2014-04-14T16:47:27Z p_l: some people better acquaintained with both xslx and xsl told me that XSL makes more sense in internal organization
2014-04-14T16:47:42Z jasom: I ran into an issue sharing a .ods file between gnumeric and open-office; I switched to .xls and everythign worked fine
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2014-04-14T16:48:05Z hlavaty: i have in fact wrote code to read and write xlsx files and even calculate stuff based on formulas in the spreadsheet but so far it's not published
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2014-04-14T16:48:34Z p_l: I used to generate manually the "old" (Office 2003) XML formats
2014-04-14T16:48:41Z nyef: hlavaty: Does this handle various encodings for text data in xls files?
2014-04-14T16:48:44Z p_l: they were nice, designed heavily for automated processing
2014-04-14T16:48:50Z hlavaty: but a simple trick: you can read the whole xlsx or docx or ods or odt into lisp as a cons tree and then work with that
2014-04-14T16:49:13Z H4ns: p_l: the old format was nice, yes, but xlsx i find kind hard to work with.
2014-04-14T16:51:24Z hlavaty: nyef: it handles whatever xls files i tried;  recently fixed some unicode encoding after somebody reported a bug when parsing some french spreadsheets;  try it and report a bug if you find unimplemented case :-D
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2014-04-14T16:53:49Z nyef has a mac-os-roman .xls file lying around.
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2014-04-14T16:54:40Z hlavaty: oh, waiting for a bug report then :-D
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2014-04-14T16:56:23Z nyef: Umm... If I run with this, I'm definitely patching it to use sb-kernel:make-double-float, even if it IS a "private" package.
2014-04-14T16:57:36Z hlavaty: i welcome patches too, dont mind simple #+sbcl if it drops the ieee-float dependency for that implementation
2014-04-14T16:57:52Z nyef: And I don't have time to mess with this properly right now, unfortunately.
2014-04-14T16:58:15Z nyef: Still, having a library already built for this is awesome. I was afraid that I'd have to write one myself. (-:
2014-04-14T16:58:16Z hlavaty: ok, if i find some time, i'll patch it
2014-04-14T16:59:42Z nyef: I might find time this week, I might not. It partly depends on work-load, and partly depends on how my other projects go.
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2014-04-14T18:04:51Z JokesOnYou77: Recommendations for best CSV parser (in Lisp ofc)?
2014-04-14T18:06:37Z jasom: fare-csv maybe?
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2014-04-14T18:08:05Z daimrod: JokesOnYou77: it probably depends on your needs. cl-csv works for me. Try some and pick the one that fits.
2014-04-14T18:08:23Z nyef: fare-csv works reasonably well for me.
2014-04-14T18:08:32Z stassats: z) write your own
2014-04-14T18:08:44Z Quadrescence: daimrod, I tend not to like that answer. Who wants to go through and evaluate 6 different libraries for one's needs?
2014-04-14T18:08:52Z Quadrescence: Because that's how we end up with a 7th.
2014-04-14T18:09:48Z whartung: if it's faster to write your own then evaluate 6 alternatives, then it could be a net win. Depends on what distinguishes one lib from the other, and what the needs of the app are.
2014-04-14T18:10:12Z Quadrescence: whartung, My point is that one shouldn't need to evaluate 6.
2014-04-14T18:10:40Z Quadrescence: CSV ideally is a pretty well-defined task. And a library ideally is a solution to that task, in a reasonably flexible way.
2014-04-14T18:10:44Z whartung: you need to evaluate as many as it takes. As they say "it's always the last place you look"
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2014-04-14T18:11:20Z stassats: you want a library by committee?
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2014-04-14T18:11:45Z Quadrescence: No, I want someone who is good at writing libraries to write one, and have it be the one that everyone uses, patches, fixes, etc.
2014-04-14T18:12:05Z daimrod: Quadrescence: maybe, but I often find that if you're asking this kind of questions then you probably don't know precisely what you need. In this case, the basic library will do and you won't need to check all of them libraries, the 1st or 2nd will do.
2014-04-14T18:12:05Z stassats: so, a seventh library?
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2014-04-14T18:12:21Z nyef: CSV? Well-defined? Hah!
2014-04-14T18:12:22Z JokesOnYou77: We're currently using one we wrote but I thought it would be a good idea to see what else is out there and asking here seemed like a good way to get a short list to start looking at
2014-04-14T18:12:37Z Quadrescence: nyef, CSV can get pretty hairy, but we call *something* CSV for a reason.
2014-04-14T18:13:14Z nyef: Sure, just watch out for the "CSV" file with tab separators, weird quoting rules, and some strange line terminator.
2014-04-14T18:13:23Z whartung: Since, typically, the primary consumer of CSV is Excel, that's the best place to start.
2014-04-14T18:13:30Z Quadrescence: If there are various ways CSV is manifest, then the library should know that. We shouldn't have 10 libraries all purporting to parse "CSV".
2014-04-14T18:13:49Z nyef: Honestly, fare-csv seems to be pretty decent at covering the bases.
2014-04-14T18:15:14Z whartung: how are you unhappy with what you have JokesOnYou77 ?
2014-04-14T18:15:16Z JokesOnYou77: That's exactly what I'm looking for, something that can take all comers
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2014-04-14T18:15:45Z jasom: whartung: it is often faster to write a buggy subset of a general purpose library than to evaluate 6 alternatives
2014-04-14T18:16:01Z whartung: especially if it's for a narrow use case.
2014-04-14T18:16:12Z whartung: for "my" csv, vs "yours"
2014-04-14T18:16:14Z jasom: whartung: so ideally we'd have fewer than 6 alternatives that are general purpose and get enough use to be less buggy than writing your specific thing
2014-04-14T18:16:15Z stassats: jasom: and it usually is faster itself, since it only deals with a subset
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2014-04-14T18:16:39Z LiamH: I notice Debian has libraries in Java, Haskell and OCaml for CSV. I'm surprised there isn't a C library that we could call using CFFI.
2014-04-14T18:17:03Z Quadrescence: CSV sounds like the last thing I'd want to use FFI for.
2014-04-14T18:17:17Z stassats: CSV is the last thing i want to be parsed with C
2014-04-14T18:17:23Z whartung: I'd rater right my domain specific buggy hack for this than go FFI
2014-04-14T18:17:26Z JokesOnYou77: whartung, Because excel can't be trusted with character encodings there is a fear that there will be things like delimiter characters accidentally created by mangled characters.  I'm not entirely convinced that that's a realistic problem, but it is a fear
2014-04-14T18:18:05Z stassats: SNOBOL, now, that's better
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2014-04-14T18:18:49Z whartung: interesting, I can see the (remote) possibility. The real is whether Excel can write a CSV that it itself can not read accurately. And even if it does, I don't know what can be done about it, unless the definition for "delimiter" is greatly extended
2014-04-14T18:18:57Z whartung: *real issue
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2014-04-14T18:32:35Z JokesOnYou77: Thank you all btw.  I think I'll start takinga look at fare-csv
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2014-04-14T18:34:16Z JokesOnYou77: I stand corrected, apparently we are currently using https://github.com/sharplispers/csv-parser/blob/master/csv-parser.lisp
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2014-04-14T18:39:24Z jasom: parenscript: just like lisp, except every single feature is subtly broken.
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2014-04-14T18:41:00Z jasom: Though I suppose the same sentence is true for some actual common-lisp implementations over the years
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2014-04-14T18:50:19Z nyef: jasom: Probably including some of the big-name popular implementations.
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2014-04-14T18:55:29Z Malice: Hello! I'm learning CL from book, and I don't know how to complete one excercise from the book. I've described my problem here: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.lang.lisp/u8YwH2zl8bM
2014-04-14T18:55:47Z Malice: If you can't read it there for some reason, I can paste post to pastebin, and if you need details, I can provide them. Thanks in advance!
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2014-04-14T18:56:06Z H4ns: Malice: paste.lisp.org
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2014-04-14T18:56:59Z jasom: Malice: find-if will find the first item in a list that matches a function you give it, right?
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2014-04-14T18:57:33Z Malice: jasom: Yes
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2014-04-14T18:58:23Z jasom: Malice: so if you search a list of ranks sorted highest-to-lowest, then you will get the highest value that matches your function
2014-04-14T18:59:06Z Malice: But what function?
2014-04-14T18:59:22Z jasom: Malice: that is something you should think about.  What are you trying to do?
2014-04-14T18:59:54Z Malice: Find the highest rank of card from a set of cards.
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2014-04-14T19:00:25Z jasom: So how do you test if a given rank is in your hand?
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2014-04-14T19:02:02Z Malice: hmm
2014-04-14T19:05:26Z jasom: First just get the part where you find the highest rank in your hand (e.g. 6 or ace) that part doesn't need assoc.  Then you use assoc to find a card in your hand with that rank.  I've written up a solution so we can compare when you're done.
2014-04-14T19:06:21Z Malice: I'm thinking right now, wait a second please
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2014-04-14T19:12:39Z Malice: jasom: Okay, I guess I have the solution
2014-04-14T19:12:57Z Malice: Oh wait, sec. It's incomplete
2014-04-14T19:13:20Z Malice: Okay. Now I'm ready.
2014-04-14T19:13:25Z Malice: Should I paste it here, or to paste.lisp?
2014-04-14T19:13:31Z jasom: paste.lisp.org
2014-04-14T19:16:10Z Malice: jasom: Here you are: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142035
2014-04-14T19:16:46Z Malice: Still seems to be a bit different than what you describet, I guess.
2014-04-14T19:16:50Z Malice: described*
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2014-04-14T19:16:54Z jasom: looks good.  Mine was somewhat different, but may have been because I'm using things you haven't learned yet
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2014-04-14T19:17:19Z jasom: I used (lambda (e) (member e hand :key #'car))
2014-04-14T19:17:37Z jasom: but same basic idea
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2014-04-14T19:17:48Z Malice: Well, book introduced these (keywords?) but I haven't learned using them yet.
2014-04-14T19:18:05Z Malice: Anyway, thanks for help. I've been approaching the problem from another side.
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2014-04-14T19:18:25Z jasom: yeah, what I did was essentially equivalent to assoc (at least for boolean testing)
2014-04-14T19:18:43Z Malice: Good :)
2014-04-14T19:18:45Z Malice: Thanks for help!
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2014-04-14T19:22:12Z jasom: you're welcome
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2014-04-14T19:24:15Z jasom: (first (sort #'higher-rank-p hand)) should work too, of course
2014-04-14T19:24:36Z jasom: um switch the order of arguments to sort though
2014-04-14T19:24:44Z jasom: (first (sort hand #'higher-rank-p))
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2014-04-14T19:26:12Z nyef: SORT is destructive, remember?
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2014-04-14T19:27:01Z nyef: You aren't guaranteed that the first cell in the list was the first cell on input, so that last can lose cards from HAND.
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2014-04-14T19:28:02Z knob: Hello everyone.   I installed the latest emacs, and installed slime.    Now, when I go   M-x slime   , it returns this error in the bottom buffer window: http://pastebin.com/XwYqs33D
2014-04-14T19:28:21Z knob: Any idea what I have misconfigured over here?
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2014-04-14T19:30:02Z Xach: knob: can you run clisp outside of slime, e.g. in the terminal?
2014-04-14T19:30:14Z knob: Xach, yes...
2014-04-14T19:30:21Z knob: let me double check, yet yesterday I did it... sec
2014-04-14T19:30:37Z knob: Xach, ahh... it didn't run now.
2014-04-14T19:30:53Z Xach: ok. i think fixing that will fix slime...
2014-04-14T19:30:56Z knob: Apparently, I messed it up with the installation from packages... I had installed it previously from ports
2014-04-14T19:31:06Z knob: Yes... going to try that first, and report back.  Thank you!
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2014-04-14T19:32:02Z phadthai: or it might be a clisp custom configuration issue, if you remember editing a config file for it
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2014-04-14T19:33:59Z Xach: inferior-lisp-program or slime-lisp-implementations and can also foul things up
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2014-04-14T19:41:47Z JuanDaugherty: and ?
2014-04-14T19:42:01Z Xach: incomplete edit, sorry.
2014-04-14T19:42:14Z JuanDaugherty: ah
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2014-04-14T19:42:26Z JuanDaugherty: i though elided term
2014-04-14T19:42:47Z JuanDaugherty: t
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2014-04-14T19:44:41Z knob: Xach, that was it.  Thanks man :)
2014-04-14T19:44:51Z knob: Going to get started now on Land of Lisp... w00t w00t! :)
2014-04-14T19:44:58Z Xach: knob: hooray
2014-04-14T19:47:43Z phadthai: lemonodor fame is but a hack away
2014-04-14T19:47:55Z jasom: phadthai: I somehow doubt that
2014-04-14T19:48:21Z jasom: Last update to lemonoder is 2008...
2014-04-14T19:48:26Z jasom: odor even
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2014-04-14T19:51:16Z samebchase: Which is why I did this: https://github.com/slime/slime/pull/146/files
2014-04-14T19:51:23Z samebchase: a few days ago
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2014-04-14T19:52:23Z Xach: A while ago I asked people for new slime words of encouragement but nothing much came of it
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2014-04-14T19:52:50Z Xach: https://twitter.com/xach/status/7426685557276672
2014-04-14T19:52:57Z Xach: there were a few replies to it but they don't seem to be listed :(
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2014-04-14T19:54:09Z samebchase: I think about 10 phrases should be enough
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2014-04-14T19:57:36Z wilfredh: so, I've been thinking about learning common lisp. I've written a lot of emacs lisp but never touched CL before. Any pointers? I get the impression the languages are relatively similar.
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2014-04-14T19:58:28Z tomterl: wilfredh: I found myself right at home doing my first steps in CL after doing emacs lisp for a bit
2014-04-14T19:58:48Z wilfredh: so your advice is 'jump in' then :)
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2014-04-14T19:59:12Z tomterl: I recommend 'on lisp' from paul graham and of course "practical common lisp" from peter seibel -- both freely available
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2014-04-14T19:59:19Z tomterl: yes! by all means
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2014-04-14T20:00:40Z tomterl: wilfredh: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ (practical CL)
2014-04-14T20:00:59Z drewc1: I can recommend not looking at On Lisp 'till you know why it is Impractical :)
2014-04-14T20:01:01Z samebchase: wilfredh: I don't think you'd have much problem writing a small project in CL if you're already comfortable with elisp
2014-04-14T20:01:03Z tomterl: wilfredh: and on lisp is here http://www.paulgraham.com/onlisptext.html
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2014-04-14T20:01:23Z jasom: I second drewc1's comment on "On Lisp"
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2014-04-14T20:01:40Z nyef: minion: Graham crackers?
2014-04-14T20:01:40Z minion: Graham crackers: http://www.cs.northwestern.edu/academics/courses/325/readings/graham/graham-notes.html
2014-04-14T20:02:09Z jasom: wilfredh: emacs lisp and common lisp are basically 2 languages that split off from a common ancestor in the 80s
2014-04-14T20:03:16Z drewc loves reading Stallman in the ANSI standard mailing list archives ...
2014-04-14T20:03:45Z drewc: I would not say "clueless", but given a lack of a better word ... :P
2014-04-14T20:04:36Z drewc admits to likely being clueless as well ... and has even implemented FEXPRS, so beyond clueless :P
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2014-04-14T20:44:04Z Poenikatu: I'm reading Sonja Keene's book on CLOS. She uses defmethod with the lambda-keyword &key at the end of the lambda list. What is the point of that? Shouldn't there be actual keys provided?
2014-04-14T20:44:25Z Bike: it's to make the lambda list match the gf's
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2014-04-14T20:44:35Z Bike: you can have different methods take different keys, and some take no keys
2014-04-14T20:45:04Z nyef: But they all have to agree that the remaining arguments are keyword arguments.
2014-04-14T20:45:15Z Poenikatu: Bike: So, putting &key at the end of the gf's lambda list means that methods can have any number of keys. Is that it?
2014-04-14T20:45:25Z Bike: yeah, like nyef said.
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2014-04-14T20:45:34Z Bike: i think. i don't think i've ever actually used this feature myself but it's in there
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2014-04-14T20:45:45Z Poenikatu: Yes, I understand now. Thanks
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2014-04-14T20:46:45Z Poenikatu: She was adding a method to the initialize-instance gf.
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2014-04-14T20:47:45Z drewc: umm ... that is actually where I get confused hyperspec and amop wise ... I need to re-read the entire &allow-other-keys/&key thing and what should be checked under what optimise declarations etc
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2014-04-14T20:48:31Z Poenikatu: I'm writing a program which keeps track of drugs a person might be taking. I have, so far, 2 classes: "drug" and "dose". The 1st is a direct superclass of "dose". When making an instance of a "dose", how can I be sure that the correct drug instance is used?
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2014-04-14T20:49:28Z Poenikatu: drewc: Yes, I still don't understand &allow-other-keys. I need to see some examples of its use, I think.
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2014-04-14T20:50:51Z pjb: Poenikatu: nope. Drug and Dose have not a is-a relationship! No superclass here!
2014-04-14T20:51:03Z drewc: Poenikatu: I have even had beers with the author of such things, and FWIW, it is not at all clear spec or AMOP wise.
2014-04-14T20:52:01Z pjb: Poenikatu: what you have is Drug and Person.  And the relationships between Drug and Person can be reified as Take with a dose attribute.
2014-04-14T20:52:24Z drewc: pjb: I agree 100%. (defclass ketamine (drug) ...) (defclass dose () ((amount ...) (drug ...)))
2014-04-14T20:53:24Z pjb: Poenikatu: otherwise when you have a class B that is a subclass of A, then when you write (make-instance 'B), you get an object that is also an instance of A, it's the same object!  (typep (make-instance 'B) 'A) --> t
2014-04-14T20:53:35Z drewc: or ... (cons drug dose) or (defclass use () (drug dose))
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2014-04-14T20:55:33Z drewc: (defgeneric dose-on-drugs (drug &key (amount (make-measure :amount 1 :type MG)) ...)
2014-04-14T20:55:59Z drewc is on lunch break ... sorry about blabbering about design...
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2014-04-14T20:56:59Z slyrus would enjoy seeing a lisp pharmacokinetics library
2014-04-14T20:57:20Z Poenikatu: slyrus: What does your penultimate word mean?
2014-04-14T20:57:44Z nyef: Poenikatu: It's something to do with molecular kinematics, I think.
2014-04-14T20:58:04Z Poenikatu: nyef: Hm
2014-04-14T20:58:19Z p_l: simulation of drug operation?
2014-04-14T20:58:28Z pjb: I would bet one already exist, hidden in some program at some big pharmaceutical company.
2014-04-14T20:58:50Z p_l: pjb: or at the very least existed on some Lisp Machine
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2014-04-14T20:59:11Z Bike: 've been toying with kinematics but it's a long way from practicality, especially given i barely know chemistry
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2014-04-14T21:03:28Z whartung: I thought kinematics was getting jointed RPG toons to not simply collpase in a heap of bones.
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2014-04-14T21:03:48Z eudoxia: quick question: is there a way to overload equality for structures?
2014-04-14T21:04:00Z eudoxia: like "only compare these slots"
2014-04-14T21:04:37Z Bike: whartung: that's physical kinematics. given what "kinematics" means everybody and their mother uses the term
2014-04-14T21:04:55Z Bike: er. nevermind. i meant kinetics.
2014-04-14T21:04:59Z whartung: fair enough, I've only seen it in that context.
2014-04-14T21:05:07Z nicdev: eudoxia: write :around for the equality method of the structure?
2014-04-14T21:05:08Z Poenikatu: drewc: Right, I see that dose is not a subclass of drug because a dose could be of any drug.
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2014-04-14T21:06:04Z jaimef: so I get to use parens AND compile to native binaries?
2014-04-14T21:06:14Z whartung: dose is a property of a manifestation of a drug. Like a pill, or an applicaiton, like an injection
2014-04-14T21:06:24Z whartung: no doubt there are terms of art here that elude me at the moment.
2014-04-14T21:06:28Z drewc: Poenikatu: what is important is also to remember that dose can be a noun and a verb ....
2014-04-14T21:06:48Z eudoxia: nicdev: i'm not sure that would work. i guess i want to overload what the default quality predicates do under the hood, so i should probably change my approach...
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2014-04-14T21:08:16Z drewc: "I took a dose" ... noun "Dosed on it" ... verb
2014-04-14T21:08:29Z pjb: eudoxia: cf CDR-8
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2014-04-14T21:08:38Z Poenikatu: drewc: Yes, thanks
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2014-04-14T21:10:18Z Poenikatu: In C/C++ programs, internationalization is done using gettext. Is there an accepted method of internationalizing CL programs?
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2014-04-14T21:10:46Z eudoxia: Poenikatu: you might want to look at https://github.com/cage2/cl-i18n
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2014-04-14T21:13:10Z Poenikatu: eudoxia: Thanks. I did (ql:quickload "cl-i18n") and got an error.
2014-04-14T21:14:01Z eudoxia: Poenikatu: i just tested it and it loaded just fine
2014-04-14T21:14:03Z Poenikatu: eudoxia: It was compiling osicat-posix and was using cc -m32 ...
2014-04-14T21:14:17Z Poenikatu: eudoxia: Which CL implementation?
2014-04-14T21:14:21Z eudoxia: ah osicat. maybe you don't have libfixposix?
2014-04-14T21:14:29Z eudoxia: or maybe that's for iolib
2014-04-14T21:14:40Z Poenikatu: eudoxia: I'm using LispWorks
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2014-04-14T21:16:01Z eudoxia: Poenikatu: googling around it seems others have similar problems with osicat on LispWorks
2014-04-14T21:16:15Z eudoxia: Poenikatu: maybe someone has a fork that works?
2014-04-14T21:16:43Z Poenikatu: eudoxia: What does osicat do?
2014-04-14T21:17:02Z eudoxia: Poenikatu: it's an OS interface library. i'm not sure why cl-i18n would need it
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2014-04-14T21:18:28Z Bike: nice, it uses osicat in exactly one place https://github.com/cage2/cl-i18n/blob/9cc66f36253eb0f739bccc21d72f491326645219/i18n-utils.lisp#L113-118
2014-04-14T21:18:58Z jaimef: anyone with Lispworks?
2014-04-14T21:20:01Z jaimef: trying to see how small a binary generated from say http://linbsd.org/jsonip.lisp would be with it vs say sbcl/ccl
2014-04-14T21:20:33Z Bike: lispworks has a lot of different options in its dumper affecting size
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2014-04-14T21:23:47Z Poenikatu: Bike: I should think that instead of the call to an osicat function it would be possible to use (directory...
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2014-04-14T21:25:50Z Poenikatu: Bike: What did you do to find that one instance?
2014-04-14T21:26:06Z Bike: typed 'osicat' into github's search gizmo.
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2014-04-14T21:27:20Z Poenikatu: Bike: I just learnt something. Thanks
2014-04-14T21:27:27Z drewc: Poenikatu: welcome to CL, where any interaction with files and paths is 'unique' and 'interesting' :)
2014-04-14T21:27:43Z Poenikatu: drewc: Too right!
2014-04-14T21:28:47Z Bike: seems like it could use cl-fad or whatever fareware, but i don't know about them or osicat
2014-04-14T21:28:51Z drewc: does PCL not have an entire section on it, and a lib based on that, and yet sit till never works the 'wanted' way? :P
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2014-04-14T21:29:45Z drewc: cl-fad is the one i was referring to
2014-04-14T21:29:53Z Poenikatu: drewc: Yes, I remember that PCL does have a "portable" library for dealing with files and directories
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2014-04-14T21:30:42Z Poenikatu must go: bedtime!
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2014-04-14T22:13:38Z PuercoPop: minion: memo for Peonikatu I've submitted a PR to drop the osicat dependency in favour of uiop's filesystem layer.
2014-04-14T22:13:38Z minion: you speak nonsense
2014-04-14T22:13:54Z PuercoPop: minion: memo for Peonikatu: I've submitted a PR to drop the osicat dependency in favour of uiop's filesystem layer.
2014-04-14T22:13:54Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Peonikatu when he/she/it next speaks.
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2014-04-14T23:18:36Z jasom: So; when are multiple-values lost?  Just at function call boundaries and during bindings?
2014-04-14T23:19:09Z jasom: Or I guess I should say "only during bindings" since function call arguments are bound
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2014-04-14T23:20:58Z p_l: jasom: if you don't bind them to anything when the function returns, afaik
2014-04-14T23:21:47Z jasom: I'm working on an interpreter, and man multiple values are a pain
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2014-04-14T23:23:26Z jasom: p_l: If your function passes the return value of another function directly they are preserved (e.g. (lambda () (floor 1 2)) => (values 0 1)
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2014-04-14T23:27:10Z jasom: return-from return and throw also preserve multiple values
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2014-04-14T23:32:26Z jasom: progn, and (by extension all forms with an implicit progn)
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2014-04-14T23:33:00Z jasom: Assignment and binding are the only 2 places I can find where multiple-values get reduced to just the primary value
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2014-04-14T23:33:36Z p_l: jasom: sounds like "not touching" the return values if you only pass return of another function would handle them fine
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2014-04-14T23:34:34Z jasom: p_l: It looks like the best way to structure the interpreter will be to treat everything as having multiple values, and then specifically accessing the primary value for assignment and binding
2014-04-14T23:35:03Z p_l: that sounds about right
2014-04-14T23:36:12Z p_l: or, depending on how you structure the return value format, you could simply have (on the stack) <primary val> <multiple-value canary +count> <val 2> ...
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2014-04-14T23:36:48Z p_l: and as long as the return value of a function comes from another call, just do not modify the stack
2014-04-14T23:37:20Z jasom: This is fully intepreted, so I don't maintain an explicit call stack
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2014-04-14T23:38:20Z jasom: I think for now, I'll just ignore multiple values, and then update assignment and binding to handle them once I get them.
2014-04-14T23:38:59Z jasom: anyway my interpreter can successfully return 3 from this (%cons (%cons (%intern "LAMBDA" %common-lisp) (%cons (%cons (%intern "X" %common-lisp) $nil) (%cons (%intern "X" %common-lisp) $nil))) (%cons 3 $nil))
2014-04-14T23:39:17Z jasom: off to dinner.
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2014-04-14T23:42:07Z phadthai: you could also use a custom package instead of using many %
2014-04-14T23:42:41Z Xach: (jasom:cons ...)
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2014-04-15T00:15:35Z jasom: phadthai: I could If I were writting it in common lisp...
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2014-04-15T00:33:26Z nicdev: i am having problems with slime. nothing typed in the REPL is evaluated and instead i get the following messages http://paste.lisp.org/display/142040
2014-04-15T00:33:58Z nicdev: i tried to byte-compile as noted here and it's not helping https://github.com/slime/slime/issues/122
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2014-04-15T00:35:34Z nicdev: pointers on how to fix this or how to revert to an old slime in Quicklisp?
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2014-04-15T00:39:23Z Xach: If you go back, everything goes back, not just slime.
2014-04-15T00:39:37Z Xach: http://blog.quicklisp.org/2011/08/going-back-in-dist-time.html has a roundabout way to do it
2014-04-15T00:39:54Z Xach: I had that problem but it went away for me in 24.3.2, I think.
2014-04-15T00:41:56Z Quadrescence: Xach, have you exposed an easy way to delete dists
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2014-04-15T00:43:32Z Xach: Quadrescence: I think (ql-dist:uninstall (ql-dist:dist "name-of-the-dist")) should do it.
2014-04-15T00:43:51Z Xach: you can also disable and enable it if you want it to be temporary.
2014-04-15T00:43:53Z Quadrescence: Xach, why not (ql:quickremove ..)
2014-04-15T00:43:59Z Quadrescence: (i am half joking about the name)
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2014-04-15T02:26:41Z space_cadet: Why can't I quote lists with a colon in them?
2014-04-15T02:26:58Z space_cadet: eg: '(test:foo) throws
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2014-04-15T02:27:28Z nyef: Did you define a package called TEST ?
2014-04-15T02:27:46Z space_cadet: No.
2014-04-15T02:28:03Z space_cadet: And don't want to. :/
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2014-04-15T02:28:31Z space_cadet: I'm passing this to emacs, where the package (naming convention) is valid.
2014-04-15T02:28:36Z nyef: Then you can expect that reading '(test:foo) will throw an error.
2014-04-15T02:29:18Z space_cadet: k.
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2014-04-15T03:13:58Z Ryan_Burnside: I've started learning about the CLOS and I don't see the advantage over structs. I'm probably missing some key knowledge I guess.
2014-04-15T03:14:24Z Ryan_Burnside: Classes seem a bit more "open" with access than other languages.
2014-04-15T03:16:12Z Ryan_Burnside: How do you keep programmers from modifying slots freely? C++ goes overboard on this to the point of being painful but I need to make sure class slots can't be modified under conditions. You don't want to take the clothes out of a washing machine class, if the door is closed for example.
2014-04-15T03:16:41Z zRecursive: CLOS is based on generic function which is VERY different from OOP in other languages ...
2014-04-15T03:19:46Z Bike: Ryan_Burnside: only provide a "remove-clothes" function that does what you like, and don't export direct modification of slots
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2014-04-15T03:20:39Z Bike: at which point a programmer could still remove clothes through a closed door, but they would be using internals and if they have a lick of sense they know the problems with that
2014-04-15T03:21:10Z Quadrescence: Ryan_Burnside, Usually the programmer is responsible for the API he or she provides. You can restrict in that sense.
2014-04-15T03:21:41Z Quadrescence: (The problem is, the only way Common Lisp provides the notion of an API is through the use of a package, which only deals with symbols, and has no notion of types, classes, functions, macros, constants, ...)
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2014-04-15T03:24:36Z Ryan_Burnside: I see, so we need to be careful about using the internals of a CLOS class directly.
2014-04-15T03:25:10Z Ryan_Burnside: It is implied that you only touch the class through its methods?
2014-04-15T03:25:55Z Quadrescence: Ryan_Burnside, that is typically the case. But accessors are also methods, so...
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2014-04-15T03:28:26Z Bike: Ryan_Burnside: more like the more general only touching a library's objects with the library's presented interface.
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2014-04-15T03:43:57Z Ryan_Burnside: Thanks for the clarification guys. :)
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2014-04-15T03:45:04Z zRecursive: 'defstruct sometimes is enough though
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2014-04-15T03:54:45Z axion: is there any case when (floor (* x y)) would return a second value >= 1.0 ? trying to debug a problem in my code, but i cant reproduce it. my numbers are pulled from an api and have seen formatting issues that would result only if floor is returning 1.0 or greater as second value. whenever i investigate i am too late and the database is changed so i cant see what values it was multiplying
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2014-04-15T04:01:07Z Bike: don't think so, if there's no second argument to floor
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2014-04-15T04:01:07Z Bike: can you just wrap the floor call in a debug-print?
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2014-04-15T05:16:11Z zmyrgel: hi, I'm having macro trouble with my chess engine
2014-04-15T05:16:50Z zmyrgel: I want to generate my evaluation boards with macros but can't get it to work
2014-04-15T05:17:03Z zmyrgel: here's a link to the macro: https://github.com/zmyrgel/cl-tursas/blob/master/state0x88/eval0x88.lisp#L45
2014-04-15T05:18:01Z zmyrgel: for starters, I can't seem to be able to refer to 'board-value' type in a macro, it works if I replace it bit '(signed byte 8) though
2014-04-15T05:18:08Z Zhivago: Please think of a specific question to ask.
2014-04-15T05:18:42Z Zhivago: Why do you believe that you can't refer to a board-value type in a macro?
2014-04-15T05:20:12Z zmyrgel: when loading the package I get "The variable TURSAS.STATE0X88::BOARD-VALUE is unbound"
2014-04-15T05:20:28Z Zhivago: And do you have a variable with the name board-value?
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2014-04-15T05:20:54Z Bike: zmyrgel: you're using board-value unquoted.
2014-04-15T05:21:15Z Bike: zmyrgel: of course (make-array ... :element-type board-value) isn't going to work. you want (make-array ... :element-type 'board-value), surely.
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2014-04-15T05:22:28Z zmyrgel: Bike: thanks, that was simple
2014-04-15T05:22:39Z Bike: do you understand why it didn't work?
2014-04-15T05:23:06Z zmyrgel: yeah, think so
2014-04-15T05:24:05Z zmyrgel: but the main gripe is in the make-table macros loop portition
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2014-04-15T05:25:54Z zmyrgel: loading the package gives: "wrong number of args to quote (QUOTE (<64 elements of board>) 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0)
2014-04-15T05:26:37Z Bike: okay, so... don't do that.
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2014-04-15T05:31:58Z zmyrgel: its in the macro evaluation, do I need some nested backticks/commas there or am I approuching this in a wrong way?
2014-04-15T05:32:30Z Bike: the make-table macro?
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2014-04-15T05:33:38Z Zhivago: Why are you using macros for this?
2014-04-15T05:33:48Z Zhivago: I suggest that you replace all of the macros with functions.
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2014-04-15T05:39:18Z zmyrgel: I'd assume the macro would keep that part cleaner and faster
2014-04-15T05:39:36Z Zhivago: And how's that working out for you? :)
2014-04-15T05:39:47Z Zhivago: No. Macros aren't cleaner or particularly faster.
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2014-04-15T06:01:54Z samebchase: I can see some useful things here: https://github.com/TBRSS/serapeum
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2014-04-15T06:19:16Z PuercoPop: samebchase: They point to a Fixin Letrec I wasn't aware of in the docstring for fbind. And mvlet is useful but I prefer just using bind from metabang. Also the method combination standard/context is undocumented. I assume it is a way to do something similar to with-* for methods but I don't know much how are method-combinations defined.
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2014-04-15T06:22:20Z samebchase: I'm exploring it atm: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142043#1
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2014-04-15T07:18:03Z ggole: https://github.com/TBRSS/serapeum/blob/master/numbers.lisp#L24 sigh, evals place twice
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2014-04-15T07:22:59Z Vivitron: that's an unfortunately common bug pattern
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2014-04-15T07:34:45Z loke_: GET-SETF-EXPANSION is quite hard ot use though
2014-04-15T07:34:56Z loke_: I guess people just shouldn't try :-)
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2014-04-15T07:37:27Z tomterl: hmm I'm possibly in dumb mode ATM: does sbcl compile everything on the fly? I'm playing with simple cycle-burner code and don't see a difference in (time) before and after (compile 'func)
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2014-04-15T07:38:42Z tomterl just woke up and the first coffee hadn't time to kick in
2014-04-15T07:39:41Z ggole: tomterl: compiled-function-p might be helpful
2014-04-15T07:41:13Z loke_: tomterl: yes
2014-04-15T07:41:56Z loke_: tomterl: SBCL only uses compiled code (there is an interpreter, but it's onyl used in some very specific circumstances). In almost all cases the COMPILE function doesn't do anything.
2014-04-15T07:43:13Z tomterl: thank you both - compiled-function-p gets nil in both cases though
2014-04-15T07:43:58Z ggole: Use it like this: (compiled-function-p #'foo)
2014-04-15T07:44:05Z ggole: Not with a symbol argument like 'foo
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2014-04-15T07:44:33Z tomterl slaps his forehead hard enough to yelp a bit - dumb mode alright
2014-04-15T07:44:45Z antoszka: CL-USER> (defun foo () ())
2014-04-15T07:44:45Z antoszka: FOO
2014-04-15T07:44:45Z antoszka: CL-USER> (compiled-function-p #'foo)
2014-04-15T07:44:46Z antoszka: T
2014-04-15T07:44:56Z ggole: Easy mistake.
2014-04-15T07:45:11Z ggole: In fact, I made it at first and was a bit confused by why cons did not appear to be compiled.
2014-04-15T07:45:44Z antoszka: tomterl: You may also want to DISASSEMBLE your compiled function and see what's in the output code.
2014-04-15T07:46:33Z tomterl: yes, but I'm preparing a talk on (learning) lisp and the namespace issue will come up, and I should at least have tried #' :)
2014-04-15T07:47:58Z ggole: Ah. Well, in that case it may prove to be a helpful mistake.
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2014-04-15T07:49:03Z antoszka: tomterl: In that case make sure you have a look at: www.flownet.com/gat/packages.pdf
2014-04-15T07:49:09Z antoszka: (don't be put off by title)
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2014-04-15T07:55:14Z tomterl: antoszka: I'll read that (complete idiot titles are okay by me) -- but I was referring to the lisp-1 lisp-2 schism function/variable namespace issue (#' to make clear it's a function you want to access); I guess I won't have the time to cover packages -
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2014-04-15T07:56:11Z antoszka: tomterl: yeah, but there's a lot more there about symbols in general
2014-04-15T07:56:40Z tomterl: ah ok - just read the first sentences
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2014-04-15T08:16:22Z hlavaty: minion: memo for nyef: cl-olefs updated, you can pull from http://logand.com/git/cl-olefs.git and thanks for the sb-kernel:make-double-float hint; i'm looking forward to your mac encoding bug report :-)
2014-04-15T08:16:22Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell nyef when he/she/it next speaks.
2014-04-15T08:18:40Z hlavaty: Xach: how does quicklisp deal with asdf dependencies like ":depends-on (#-(or ccl sbcl) :ieee-floats)"?  is there some good way to make the dependencies non-optional for quicklisp purposes?
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2014-04-15T10:27:24Z axion: can anyone help with this problem...i am trying to not have format round the 2nd value of the list when there is more than 2 decimal places, making the result completely wrong: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142046
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2014-04-15T10:56:10Z hlavaty: axion: you should not represent money using imprecise numbers
2014-04-15T10:57:31Z axion: hmm
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2014-04-15T11:45:45Z zmyrgel: hi, is this normal behaviour: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142047
2014-04-15T11:45:54Z Xach: hlavaty: there are two things in play. 1. if it is required for sbcl, that is how the metadata reflects the relationship. 2. if the relationship is omitted, there is a handler for the missing-dependency error that fetches it anyway.
2014-04-15T11:46:29Z Xach: zymurgy: yes. you need a trailing slash on the directory to merge.
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2014-04-15T11:48:01Z hlavaty: Xach: ad 2) great:-) but how does it know what is the dependency when it's invisible to sbcl?  from a list of possible dependencies+package-names?
2014-04-15T11:49:22Z hlavaty: i mean ql maintains a list of package-name -> asdf system name?
2014-04-15T11:50:57Z zmyrgel: Xach: ok, good to know
2014-04-15T11:53:42Z PuercoPop: Oi, How do I get the class object out of the name/symbol?
2014-04-15T11:54:31Z hlavaty: PuercoPop: (find-class 'integer)
2014-04-15T11:55:12Z PuercoPop: hlavaty: thx
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2014-04-15T12:18:14Z Xach: hlavaty: it knows from a slot in the condition
2014-04-15T12:18:31Z Xach: hlavaty: the error isn't a package error, it's a system error
2014-04-15T12:19:09Z hlavaty: ok, didnt know something like that existed
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2014-04-15T12:20:46Z dim: is there a way to do get-output-stream-string without emptying the stream?
2014-04-15T12:21:04Z Xach: dim: no
2014-04-15T12:21:21Z dim: maybe I should push characters here then.
2014-04-15T12:21:38Z dim: what'd be the usual "small buffer" data type?
2014-04-15T12:21:56Z dim: (when you can't know the length in advance)
2014-04-15T12:22:02Z Xach: adjustable vector
2014-04-15T12:22:15Z Xach: (make-array 42 :fill-pointer 0 :adjustable t) and vector-push-extend
2014-04-15T12:22:31Z dim: do I need to care myself for the resizing? reading the docs
2014-04-15T12:22:43Z Xach: no, v-p-e resizes.
2014-04-15T12:23:13Z dim: and I can read the whole thing and still continue pushing from where the pointer was, of course?
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2014-04-15T12:25:39Z dim: ok my tests are passing, looks good
2014-04-15T12:25:41Z dim: thanks!
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2014-04-15T13:24:35Z dim: is there a better way to read (as a stream) an output-string that's been accumulated than (with-input-from-string (s (get-output-stream-string buffer)) <process here>)?
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2014-04-15T13:27:24Z Xach: That seems fine with the little context available.
2014-04-15T13:27:44Z dim: yeah, just wondering about "idiomatic"-ness of that
2014-04-15T13:27:47Z mal_: dim: make a broadcast stream combining both s and your string output stream?
2014-04-15T13:27:56Z dim: if you're not chocked already, might be good enough
2014-04-15T13:28:06Z dim: mal_: a broadcast stream is standard?
2014-04-15T13:28:14Z mal_: sure
2014-04-15T13:28:28Z dim: will have a look then
2014-04-15T13:28:40Z Xach: A broadcast stream is an output stream.
2014-04-15T13:29:00Z Xach: Can it help in this situation?
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2014-04-15T13:29:25Z dim: I want to write in a stream, and as soon as I'm done I want to read from the stream
2014-04-15T13:29:37Z dim: using format, then using read-char
2014-04-15T13:29:52Z dim: like cat | process | process if you want to think in unix terms
2014-04-15T13:30:33Z z0d: (write to stream) (read from stream)
2014-04-15T13:30:46Z z0d: # pseudo-code
2014-04-15T13:30:47Z Xach: dim: maybe make-two-way-stream would suit.
2014-04-15T13:31:03Z Xach has not used one and is not sure
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2014-04-15T13:35:05Z dim hand-wrote a dollar-quoting aware "parser" for SQL queries, with support for \i, happy
2014-04-15T13:35:44Z dim: z0d: #<SB-IMPL::STRING-OUTPUT-STREAM {1003B8C2C3}> is not a character input stream.
2014-04-15T13:38:18Z dim: Xach: mmm, I don't think it helps, because I want to read from the output stream here
2014-04-15T13:38:25Z dim: thanks anyway
2014-04-15T13:38:42Z Xach: dim: isn't that what the example shows?
2014-04-15T13:39:11Z dim: mmm I'm missing something then, let me try again
2014-04-15T13:39:47Z Xach: I don't know if it's really showing that, and I'm not sure from your example if it fits, so don't try too hard on my account.
2014-04-15T13:41:16Z dim: well doesn't fit, doesn't allow to use an output stream as an input stream
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2014-04-15T13:41:51Z Xach: dim: from the example, i thought you would not work directly with the output stream, but write to the new two-way stream
2014-04-15T13:41:55Z Xach: and read from it, too
2014-04-15T13:42:23Z dim: you can, but where is the input coming from?
2014-04-15T13:43:03Z dim: mmm, that would be quite a refactoring but maybe...
2014-04-15T13:43:34Z Xach: I don't know if it's worth it. But maybe, if you get to use a rarely-used feature!
2014-04-15T13:43:48Z dim: sure, it's its own reward isn't it? ;-)
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2014-04-15T13:46:36Z dim: mmm that recursive calling parts are not going to make it any easier
2014-04-15T13:46:55Z dim: I'd need to change the input stream mid flight
2014-04-15T13:47:38Z oleo: morning
2014-04-15T13:47:40Z dim: ok there might be something smart to do around it, but I'm not going to have a try now
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2014-04-15T16:14:33Z jasom: There is no equivalent to pipes in the standard streams
2014-04-15T16:14:53Z jasom: There is also not clearly a good way to do it without multiple threads (which probably explains that)
2014-04-15T16:15:03Z nyef: "equivalent to pipes"?
2014-04-15T16:15:17Z jasom: nyef: I was responding to dim
2014-04-15T16:15:24Z jasom should have put his name in it
2014-04-15T16:15:43Z nyef: Ah, so from about two hours or more ago?
2014-04-15T16:16:00Z jasom: nyef: yes, but I bet dim is still here, and nobody's said anything in a while
2014-04-15T16:16:33Z jasom: That question comes up here every month or two.  I need to start keeping track of some FAQs
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2014-04-15T16:38:12Z slyrus: morning
2014-04-15T16:38:16Z dim: yeah, streams are confusing, thanks jasom
2014-04-15T16:38:52Z jasom: hmm, it seems to me that LET could be implemented completely implemented with LAMBDA: (let ((foo bar) (baz bif)) ...) => ((lambda (foo baz) ...) bar bif)
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2014-04-15T16:39:28Z dim: they are quite poweful, but not in the way Unix got us used to, and also the API is not extensible, even if the standard uses the same API against different types, alike sequences somehow
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2014-04-15T16:40:26Z jasom: dim: there is a standard for extendible streams that is nearly universally available, and some attempts at standardizing extendible sequences
2014-04-15T16:40:45Z dim: yeah, I've read about them, not using them yet
2014-04-15T16:40:48Z dim: anyhow
2014-04-15T16:41:10Z jasom: dim: what I have done in the past when I needed exactly unix pipes is just socketpair and 2 threads
2014-04-15T16:41:42Z jasom: If you're okay buffering everything up and running the pipeline sequentially then string streams are fine though
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2014-04-15T16:47:52Z phadthai: also common is to use custom fifo buffers, or implementation-specific mailbox like facility, other than pipes; especially with threads, pipes can incur unnecessary syscall and/or serialization/deserialization overhead, as the threads are already sharing the process memory
2014-04-15T16:48:47Z phadthai: unix pipes/socketpairs are more useful between processes, and then again there are alternatives for larger data transfers, like shared memory
2014-04-15T16:50:34Z jasom: phadthai: a unix domain socket pair is far less error-prone than shared-memory for IPC and the performance difference is negligable (or even sockets being faster for a bad implementation of shared memory IPC) excepting the specific case of bulk transfers
2014-04-15T16:51:16Z jasom: for in-process there are some more performant alternatives I suppose.  I tend to use processes in favour of threads, so I kind of plan to be able to do that
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2014-04-15T16:51:58Z phadthai: yes it really depends on scenario
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2014-04-15T16:55:10Z phadthai: with processes you have the added benefit of being able to recycle them and avoid resource leaks and use privilege separation; perhaps a drawback would be that more resources are needed, and that a pool of pre-forked processes might be needed depending (this may still apply to threads if they need a lot of setup anyway)
2014-04-15T16:56:14Z phadthai: more resilient to bugs also, as child processes may crash without killing the whole application
2014-04-15T16:57:02Z jasom: well that last one is only true with careful design
2014-04-15T16:57:18Z jasom: however, what is true is that bugs tend to be easier to localize
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2014-04-15T17:34:06Z jasom wants to kill whomever decided lisp needed 10 varieties of lambda lists
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2014-04-15T17:41:39Z drewc invents another lambda list with "&allow-no-keys-save-for-ones-that-start-with-foobar" and laughs out loud
2014-04-15T17:41:53Z jasom: Is there a list of all of the lambda list keywords, or do I just need to read every single lambda list section to make a list of them
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2014-04-15T17:42:28Z Bike: clhs lambda-list-keywords
2014-04-15T17:42:28Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_lambda.htm
2014-04-15T17:42:43Z jasom: Bike: thanks
2014-04-15T17:42:44Z Bike: pretty sure that note there is all the standard ones
2014-04-15T17:43:05Z Bike: some implementations have their own, like &more in sbcl, but i don't think that matters to you
2014-04-15T17:43:51Z jasom: nope
2014-04-15T17:44:25Z drewc has finally started using &aux
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2014-04-15T17:45:00Z jasom: drewc: I understand wheter &aux is good style is debated
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2014-04-15T18:28:35Z drewc: jasom: I used to think it was not good at all ... but then I started using it for LAMBDA's in, say, MAP ... and it saves LoC over (lambda () (let (...)))
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2014-04-15T18:39:53Z foom: Saving LoC doesn't make something good. :)
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2014-04-15T18:40:44Z jasom: foom: for lambdas it can often improve the clarity
2014-04-15T18:41:23Z jasom: There is a big drop in clarity when you exceed <Some Fixed Amount of Space that allows seeing it all at once>
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2014-04-15T18:44:35Z phadthai: foom: except when it's perl, of course :))
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2014-04-15T18:54:12Z ggole: There's a drop in clarity when you see an odd feature in use, too.
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2014-04-15T19:02:48Z ferada: at least it's standard
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2014-04-15T19:37:27Z dlowe: Is there a way, in slime/swank, to open up a new window in emacs and have input and output streams pointed at it?
2014-04-15T19:37:45Z dlowe: I'd like to interact with my program and have the repl at the same time
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2014-04-15T19:39:27Z jasom: dlowe: I'm pretty sure you can have multiple inferior lisps if that's what you're asking
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2014-04-15T19:40:36Z dlowe: it is not.
2014-04-15T19:41:02Z jasom: oh, you want two swank connections in the same image?
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2014-04-15T19:41:10Z jasom: no
2014-04-15T19:41:20Z jasom: you want normal I/O pair to emacs from the lisp; I see now
2014-04-15T19:41:35Z jasom: sorry, I don't know how to do that
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2014-04-15T19:41:47Z dlowe: it's kind of a long shot
2014-04-15T19:41:53Z dlowe: sure would be cool, though
2014-04-15T19:42:07Z Xach: dlowe: more like comint than like slime-repl interaction?
2014-04-15T19:42:18Z Xach: i'm trying to picture how interaction would seem
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2014-04-15T19:43:07Z jasom: I think it's like "I have an interactive program; I want what normally would be stdin/stdout for that interactive program to go to one buffer, while I still have the slime-repl in another"
2014-04-15T19:43:07Z dlowe: Xach: yeah.  Say, as if I had a network connection through comint to an open socket on the lisp side
2014-04-15T19:43:17Z Xach: dlowe: gotcha.
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2014-04-15T19:43:43Z Xach: jasom: right, but an emacs buffer is also not normally interactive
2014-04-15T19:43:49Z jasom: dlowe: that might be the easiest way to do it
2014-04-15T19:43:57Z jasom: (separate comint socket)
2014-04-15T19:44:23Z dlowe: jasom: yes, but since slime has to do it for other things, I thought it might have a good facility to hook into
2014-04-15T19:44:56Z jasom: dlowe: IIRC slime doesn't solve it in the general case, just for N=2
2014-04-15T19:45:10Z jasom: which is why e.g. tab completion and such don't work when the repl is busy
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2014-04-15T20:04:50Z |3b|: jasom: there is an option to allow doing multiple things at once in slime (on threaded implementations at least), slime-inhibit-pipelining i think
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2014-04-15T20:06:06Z |3b|: it doesn't really do multiple IO streams though, just buffers output and sends it at once
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2014-04-15T20:06:25Z |3b| isn't sure what it would do if you tried to do input from 2 things at once
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2014-04-15T20:26:23Z prxq: this `cl-labels' requires `lexical-binding' to be non-nil
2014-04-15T20:26:49Z prxq: I'm getting this with a recent slime from quicklisp-slime-helper. Is this a know problem?
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2014-04-15T20:55:56Z nicdev: prxq: i was having same issues yesterday, i had to install slime 24.4.50 and it went away. there is notes about the issue on slime github repo but they point at byte-compiling the slime files and for some people that works
2014-04-15T20:56:29Z nicdev: meant i had to install emacs 24
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2014-04-15T22:13:13Z slyrus went to #asdf to bitch about ASDF. nobody was there.
2014-04-15T22:13:26Z jasom: slyrus: you want the mailing list
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2014-04-15T22:13:57Z slyrus: did that. was looking for more instant gratification.
2014-04-15T22:14:49Z H4ns: hey, it is DISRUPTIVE, i hear that disruptive is good
2014-04-15T22:16:24Z slyrus: H4ns: am I missing some reference here?
2014-04-15T22:16:54Z H4ns: slyrus: no.  i'm just sharing what i hear in startup circles.
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2014-04-15T22:17:26Z jasom: also, bitchng about asdf is on-topic here I think
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2014-04-15T22:18:16Z slyrus is a FULL-STACK bitcher
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2014-04-15T22:18:47Z H4ns: slyrus: that's the spirit!
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2014-04-15T22:19:41Z jasom: full-stack; that means everything from nginx up, right?
2014-04-15T22:20:08Z jasom: so no knowledge of http or tcp needed
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2014-04-15T22:20:15Z slyrus: I just assume it's some knucklehead who knows flash, css AND javascript!
2014-04-15T22:20:35Z slyrus: throw in some mongodb too
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2014-04-15T22:21:18Z slyrus: wait 'til I roll out my bitching-as-a-service startup
2014-04-15T22:21:44Z slyrus: it's like #lisp for the rest of the world
2014-04-15T22:22:44Z Bicyclidine: twitter?
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2014-04-15T22:23:39Z p_l: jasom: HTTP usually is needed, IMO...
2014-04-15T22:23:52Z slyrus: man, people are always stealing my good ideas before I have them
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2014-04-15T22:39:34Z slyrus: ok. back to bitching. lispbuild-sdl has it's own trivial-garbage.asd?
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2014-04-15T22:54:35Z Bicyclidine: slyrus: you should see stumpwm's asd/build system sometime. or rather not do so.
2014-04-15T22:57:56Z jasom: Or teepeedee2 I think
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2014-04-15T22:58:35Z jasom: It's some web server that pulls in a private version of  nearly all its dependencies
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2014-04-15T23:12:36Z slyrus: so... speaking of libraries. now that I'm all FULL-STACK... what json library do I want?
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2014-04-15T23:19:07Z Xach: https://sites.google.com/site/sabraonthehill/home/json-libraries has a survey
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2014-04-15T23:44:04Z slyrus: thanks
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2014-04-16T00:34:48Z jasom: aha, I think it is not possible to implement LET in terms of LAMBDA unless someone can think of a way to do this with lambda (let ((&rest 3)) &rest) => 3
2014-04-16T00:36:44Z Bicyclidine: you're probably right, excluding some horrible thing with variable renaming
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2014-04-16T00:42:06Z Xach: jasom: are you writing your thing in common lisp?
2014-04-16T00:42:26Z jasom: Xach: no
2014-04-16T00:42:53Z jasom: I'm writing a common-lisp interpreter though
2014-04-16T00:43:18Z Xach: your observation made me think of http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/MetaCircular.html a bit
2014-04-16T00:43:44Z nyef: Clever. Lambda-list-keywords aren't dynamic or constant variables, thus are covered by 11.1.2.1.2.1.
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2014-04-16T00:45:34Z jasom: And since I'm not writing in common-lisp, it would be nice to make a fairly minimal subset and do the rest with defun/defmacro
2014-04-16T00:46:19Z Bicyclidine: nyef: i think on a more basic level the point is that (lambda (foo cl:&rest bar) ...) isn't gonna work
2014-04-16T00:46:32Z nyef: That said, (lambda (#1=#.(gensym) &aux (&rest #1#) ...)
2014-04-16T00:46:43Z Bicyclidine: ...huh, does that work
2014-04-16T00:47:17Z jasom: nyef: nice
2014-04-16T00:47:25Z |3b|: couldn't you also use it as an optional arg, since you are passing all the values anyway?
2014-04-16T00:47:32Z Bicyclidine: jasom: when i wrote a pseudo-CL lambda lists were the biggest problem i had. the nonbinding special forms aren't too bad
2014-04-16T00:47:39Z nyef: |3b|: Yes, that would also work.
2014-04-16T00:48:29Z jasom: |3b|: no: "If &optional is present, the optional parameter specifiers are those following &optional up to the next lambda list keyword or the end of the list."
2014-04-16T00:48:40Z |3b|: jasom: provide a default
2014-04-16T00:48:48Z jasom: ohhh
2014-04-16T00:49:00Z |3b|: same workaround as nyef used
2014-04-16T00:49:11Z jasom: (lambda (&optional (&rest nil)) ...)
2014-04-16T00:49:24Z nyef: Don't even provide a default, just put parens around it.
2014-04-16T00:49:48Z jasom: right
2014-04-16T00:49:48Z Bicyclidine: gosh, ((lambda (#1=#.(gensym) &aux (&rest #1#)) &rest) 3) actually works
2014-04-16T00:50:06Z jasom: Bicyclidine: and why shouldn't it?
2014-04-16T00:50:40Z jasom: Xach: their "LET" emulated by "LAMBDA" is both wrong and has a redundant funcall
2014-04-16T00:51:41Z Bicyclidine: (mapcar (lambda (x) (if (consp x) (car x) x)) vs)?
2014-04-16T00:52:20Z jasom: (defmacro let (vs &body forms) `((lambda (&optional (mapcar (lambda (x) (list (car x))) vs) ,@forms) ,@(mapcar #'cadr vs))) should work
2014-04-16T00:52:54Z Bicyclidine: how's that work with (let (foo) ...)?
2014-04-16T00:53:20Z jasom: Bicyclidine: (cadr '(foo)) => nil so should be fine
2014-04-16T00:53:42Z |3b|: jasom: just foo,not (foo) there
2014-04-16T00:53:45Z Bicyclidine: you're doing (mapcar #'cadr '(foo)) though
2014-04-16T00:54:07Z Bicyclidine: well, easy fix regardless
2014-04-16T00:54:20Z nyef: Don't mapcar #'cadr, mapcar (lambda (x) (and (listp x) (cadr x))).
2014-04-16T00:54:24Z Bicyclidine: and the &optional is to get around the ll keyword thing like before?
2014-04-16T00:55:26Z Xach: jasom: I wonder if that was redundant at the time (1992)
2014-04-16T00:56:27Z jasom: (defmacro mylet (vs &body forms) `((lambda (&optional ,@(mapcar (lambda (x) (list (car x))) vs)) ,@forms) ,@(mapcar #'cadr vs)))
2014-04-16T00:56:35Z jasom: That's a fixed version
2014-04-16T00:57:03Z Bicyclidine: Xach: huh, there's no cleanup issue for the islisp lambda form inclusion business
2014-04-16T00:57:16Z jasom: And I don't need to change the mapcar
2014-04-16T00:57:22Z jasom: #'cadr does the right thing
2014-04-16T00:57:41Z jasom: the listp that nyef suggests is redundant
2014-04-16T00:57:53Z Bicyclidine: try (mylet (foo) foo).
2014-04-16T00:58:08Z jasom: bah, I forgot about that form
2014-04-16T00:58:21Z nyef: That's the form that caused me to suggest the LISTP. d-:
2014-04-16T00:58:31Z Bicyclidine: sorry, i thought i made that clear
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2014-04-16T00:59:18Z jasom: needed one other change (to the other mapcar)
2014-04-16T00:59:20Z jasom: (defmacro mylet (vs &body forms) `((lambda (&optional ,@(mapcar (lambda (x) (if (listp x) (list (car x)) x)) vs)) ,@forms) ,@(mapcar (lambda (x) (and (listp x) (cadr x))) vs)))
2014-04-16T01:00:24Z jasom: I suppose I could have done an ensure-list on the whole thing ahead of time, but either way...
2014-04-16T01:02:02Z jasom: Xach: I thought cltl2 allowed ((lambda () ..)) forms, but I might be remembering wrong
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2014-04-16T01:13:13Z |3b|: jasom: (mylet (&rest) &rest)
2014-04-16T01:15:00Z Xach checks
2014-04-16T01:15:05Z nyef: Sooner or later, someone is going to attempt to define a lambda list keyword &ersand.
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2014-04-16T01:18:55Z Xach: XJRandersand
2014-04-16T01:19:30Z nyef: Or someone will attempt to resurrect &QUOTE.
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2014-04-16T01:58:58Z axion: what's a good library for a queue data structure, with focus on performance?
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2014-04-16T01:59:47Z Xach: I don't know if they're any good, but quicklisp has jpl-queues and the queues project.
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2014-04-16T02:00:18Z axion: thanks
2014-04-16T02:05:28Z Vivitron: Loop
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2014-04-16T02:49:54Z axion: on second thought i don't think a queue is what i'm after. i need some fifo push/pop storage structure, with the ability to inspect the full list. jpl-queues doesnt allow inspecting without dequeueing everything
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2014-04-16T03:31:38Z pillton: axion: push/pop in O(1) time? inspection in O(1) time?
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2014-04-16T03:32:41Z axion: not sure
2014-04-16T03:33:49Z pillton: axion: Then I suggest you write the interface to what you need first and then an easy implementation of that interface.
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2014-04-16T03:43:55Z solidus_: how does SBCL handle allocation of objects from multiple threads? Is there one huge mutex on the entire memory pool?
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2014-04-16T03:53:12Z morenoh153: what's a good beginner level program or problem that demonstrates knowledge of functional programming?
2014-04-16T03:53:36Z morenoh153: something more complicated than recursive sorting
2014-04-16T03:54:14Z Bike: sort with comparator?
2014-04-16T03:55:11Z morenoh153: Bike: little more. I'm giving a noob career advice
2014-04-16T03:55:21Z morenoh153: I was thinking maybe an xml parser
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2014-04-16T03:57:54Z morenoh153: this looks good http://www.comp.nus.edu.sg/~cs1101s/sicp/
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2014-04-16T05:42:30Z drl: Hi everyone.
2014-04-16T05:42:37Z drl: I have a cvs file in which the first and second fields looks like this: "translation","Clyde Jones",
2014-04-16T05:42:50Z drl: Two other fields have been added to the file: "first-name" and "last-name". Those fields, however, are empty.
2014-04-16T05:43:08Z drl: I want to fill them like this: "Clyde" "Jones"
2014-04-16T05:43:22Z drl: What is the best way to do this?
2014-04-16T05:45:28Z samebchase: well it look like you need to split the string "Clyde Jonas" into "Clyde" and "Jonas" and generate a new csv file with those as the third and fourth fields
2014-04-16T05:46:15Z Zhivago: Note that first and last name are very silly fields to have.
2014-04-16T05:46:29Z samebchase: | thing | name | first-name | last-name | is that how you want it to be?
2014-04-16T05:46:37Z sellout: Zhivago: I imagine it’s for some homework.
2014-04-16T05:47:57Z samebchase: A lot less CL homework is assigned these days, but yeah that's a possibility
2014-04-16T05:47:59Z drl: Zhivago, do you mean having separate fields is silly?
2014-04-16T05:49:04Z Zhivago: I mean the idea of 'first name' and 'last name' is silly.
2014-04-16T05:49:11Z Zhivago: It won't work for real names.
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2014-04-16T05:49:51Z drl: samebchase: yes. But remember that the empty fields are already there; they just need to be filled.
2014-04-16T05:50:19Z Zhivago: So unless they're being imposed on you by some stupid person, I would try to avoid producing them.
2014-04-16T05:50:25Z H4ns: drl: basically, you have to write a program to do that.
2014-04-16T05:50:38Z samebchase: well I guess you can save the newly generate csv into the same name
2014-04-16T05:51:23Z drl: Zhivago: would you please explain?
2014-04-16T05:51:48Z Zhivago: Consider "Fredreick von Bossuldorf" Which is the first name?
2014-04-16T05:51:56Z samebchase: 1. Read csv file 2. Modify the parsed csv using some csv lib 3. Save it back
2014-04-16T05:52:20Z Bike: drl: http://www.kalzumeus.com/2010/06/17/falsehoods-programmers-believe-about-names/
2014-04-16T05:52:21Z zRecursive: drl: maybe cl-csv helps https://github.com/AccelerationNet/cl-csv
2014-04-16T05:52:33Z Zhivago: Or consider "honggildong" <- which is the first name here?
2014-04-16T05:52:40Z sellout: drl: http://www.kalzumeus.com/2010/06/17/falsehoods-programmers-believe-about-names/
2014-04-16T05:52:57Z sellout: Oh man, Bike found it first ;)
2014-04-16T05:52:58Z Bike: though the most obvious answer is probably "Sukarno"
2014-04-16T05:54:21Z Bike: burmese names are also pretty interesting. did you know there was a UN secretary general named just "Thant"? I wonder how often people enter "U" as his name
2014-04-16T05:55:19Z sellout: http://parkerhiggins.net/2013/01/writing-the-prince-symbol-in-unicode/ – I can’t believe he hasn’t gotten his own codepoint.
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2014-04-16T06:01:29Z drl: Zhivago: OK, read it. So, what do you suggest? All a person's names in one field?
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2014-04-16T06:03:37Z Bike: What's the "translation" field? Like an attribution of a translator or something?
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2014-04-16T06:04:24Z drl: Bike: it is the name of a database.
2014-04-16T06:04:59Z Bike: ...oh, I thought you meant "translation" was the name of a field you filled with "Clyde Jones", whoops
2014-04-16T06:06:52Z Zhivago: drl: Yes, or divide it by use-case.
2014-04-16T06:07:04Z Zhivago: dlr: e.g. a legal name, a screen name, a short name, etc.
2014-04-16T06:12:49Z drl: Zhivago: thanks. I'll give some more thought to this. But for now my boss wants first-name and last-name used.
2014-04-16T06:13:44Z Bike: such is life. so what exactly do you need help with? splitting on space? parsing csv? writing back?
2014-04-16T06:13:54Z drl: What is the difference between cl-csv and fare-csv?
2014-04-16T06:14:17Z Bike: they're different libraries. the latter is probably newer.
2014-04-16T06:15:19Z Bike: you can see cl-csv's page https://github.com/AccelerationNet/cl-csv but fare's looks down
2014-04-16T06:15:26Z sellout: The latter might also require that you understand monads, or interface-passing style, or something ;)
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2014-04-16T06:18:57Z drl: It looks like cl-csv converts the file to list of lists. Will it also write the file back out as csv?
2014-04-16T06:19:09Z samebchase: drl: your boss wants you to use Lisp?
2014-04-16T06:19:45Z Zhivago: That takes a special kind of stupid. :)
2014-04-16T06:20:02Z drl: samebchase: He doesn't care. He just want the file processed.
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2014-04-16T06:20:54Z samebchase: drl: If your are the most comfortable using Lisp go ahead, but otherwise consider using Python or something
2014-04-16T06:21:42Z Bike: drl: looks like it https://github.com/AccelerationNet/cl-csv/blob/79c8d18ed0724d39b1a85500774cdd9e84250653/csv.lisp#L158
2014-04-16T06:21:59Z PuercoPop: drl: it appears the function write-csv takes the rows-of-items and writes it back as a CSV
2014-04-16T06:22:02Z Zhivago: Note that there are also about 60 billion different csv formats, which may provide challenges.
2014-04-16T06:22:18Z Zhivago: I'd suggest trying for tsv if possible.
2014-04-16T06:22:39Z drl: samebchase: I would rather use lisp.
2014-04-16T06:23:19Z samebchase: okay, cool
2014-04-16T06:23:41Z samebchase: cl-csv:write-csv is probably what you want once you're done processing
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2014-04-16T06:24:09Z drl: OK, I think cl-csv is the solution I need. Many thanks you guys!
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2014-04-16T06:24:26Z Bike: godspeed
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2014-04-16T06:25:35Z drl: Bike: thanks
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2014-04-16T06:30:08Z samebchase: drl: paste code on paste.lisp.org if you have any problems
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2014-04-16T06:39:39Z jasom: sellout: I bet if enough people named their kids #<the love symbol> then it would qualify for unicode inclusion
2014-04-16T06:40:08Z drl: samebchase: thanks. I will.
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2014-04-16T07:25:50Z remib: Hi. I remember having read that you could construct almost all (syntactic) structures of lisp solely with lambda. Does anybody have a link explaining that ?
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2014-04-16T07:27:52Z Zhivago: Well, lambda provides delayed computation.
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2014-04-16T07:28:38Z Zhivago: It should be reasonably obvious, but you'll still primitives for things like decision making and comparison and so on.
2014-04-16T07:28:52Z Zhivago: Consider how you might implement IF using lambda.
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2014-04-16T07:33:45Z remib: I have no idea!
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2014-04-16T07:45:29Z Bike: since you need to delay evaluation, you'll be doing (if condition (lambda ...) (lambda ...)), and if will be a normal function, if that helps
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2014-04-16T08:00:33Z remib: Mmh, I'll try to work something with that. Thanks for the help!
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2014-04-16T09:21:55Z drl: What is wrong with this: (cl-csv:write-csv row #P"/home/l/l/csv/gr-fixed.csv")
2014-04-16T09:22:17Z H4ns: drl: paste your code and the complete error message to paste.lisp.org
2014-04-16T09:22:17Z drl: I'm getting:  style-warning: The function has an odd number of arguments in the keyword portion.
2014-04-16T09:23:02Z H4ns: drl: why did your boss give you the task to write something in lisp when you obviously don't know how to do that?
2014-04-16T09:23:05Z PuercoPop: drl: it only takes one non-keyword argument
2014-04-16T09:23:46Z PuercoPop: plus it doesn't write to a file, but to a stream
2014-04-16T09:25:17Z PuercoPop: so you have to wrap the form with a with-open-file form and pass a stream like this (cl-csv:write-csv row :stream *out*)
2014-04-16T09:25:24Z drl: H4ns: I decided to do it in lisp myself. I'm learning.
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2014-04-16T09:27:39Z drl: This works:  (setf rows (cl-csv:read-csv #P"/home/l/l/csv/gr.csv"))
2014-04-16T09:28:07Z PuercoPop: so something like this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142056
2014-04-16T09:28:15Z drl: So, I assumed that write-csv would accept a file too.
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2014-04-16T09:28:57Z PuercoPop: I'm using quickdocs to get an overview of the api: http://quickdocs.org/cl-csv/api (If you are using emacs eldoc is an even better)
2014-04-16T09:29:45Z PuercoPop: drl: ah it takes a pathname too, but you have to use the :stream keyword. IF you omit it it returns a string.
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2014-04-16T09:39:21Z drl: PuercoPop: The :stream keyword made it work. Thanks.
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2014-04-16T12:08:16Z dkcl: Is there a way to get messages from the sbcl-devel mailing list, from before I joined it with a certain address?
2014-04-16T12:10:14Z H4ns: dkcl: are you asking about http://sourceforge.net/p/sbcl/mailman/sbcl-devel/?
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2014-04-16T12:11:07Z dkcl: H4ns: Great, thanks a lot
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2014-04-16T12:55:14Z Poenikatu: I have just loaded slime v2.4 with SBCL and I get two problems: Lots of style-wrnings due to redefinition of swank-loader functions, and lots of polling "/tmp/slime.31750" messages with the suggestion that I abort slime. What's gone wrong?
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2014-04-16T13:02:26Z Poenikatu: Could some look at paste http://paste.lisp.org/+31M2 and tell me if I've done anything wrong? I'm trying to get slime 2.4 to work with sbcl
2014-04-16T13:02:34Z Poenikatu: *someone
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2014-04-16T13:09:18Z Poenikatu: Xach: Have there been any problems with slime 2.4?
2014-04-16T13:10:02Z Poenikatu: I've tried M-x slime in Emacs 24.3.50 and I cannot start the slime repl.
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2014-04-16T13:10:57Z Poenikatu: Paste at paste.lisp.org/+31M2 shows the part of my ~/.emacs.d/init.el file concerning slime. It's now working.
2014-04-16T13:11:14Z Poenikatu: *IT'S NOT WORKING
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2014-04-16T13:14:17Z Cymew: I have used slime2.4 with emacs24, but I don't have that computer near so I can not check the exact versions used.
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2014-04-16T13:22:04Z Poenikatu: Hello. I'm having trouble getting slime 2.4 to work with sbcl 1.1.16. I've not had this before. I've pasted the part of my ~/.emacs.d/init.el file to paste.lisp.org/+31M2. Could somebody look at it and tell me what I'm doing wrong?
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2014-04-16T13:23:26Z H4ns: Poenikatu: did you not ask the very same question 10 minutes ago?  are you planning to repeat it every 10 minutes?
2014-04-16T13:23:51Z H4ns: Poenikatu: you could turn to the slime mailing list for help, for example.
2014-04-16T13:24:38Z Poenikatu: H4ns, No, I was using erc in Emacs and decided that erc was unsuitable. So I've installed xchat instead. Sorry if you find this troublesome and I shall certainly do what you suggest
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2014-04-16T13:55:09Z Sir_herrbatka: ave tux, lispers
2014-04-16T13:55:28Z Sir_herrbatka: i need to remove elements of the lisp in the loop
2014-04-16T13:56:15Z segv-: Sir_herrbatka: many many ways to do that, do you have some code you're currently using that's not working?
2014-04-16T13:56:41Z segv-: (i assume remove isn't the function you're looking for)
2014-04-16T13:57:00Z H4ns: Sir_herrbatka: often enough, it is more convenient and readable to first clean the list of unwanted entries and then process it.
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2014-04-16T14:01:10Z Sir_herrbatka: H4ns: sadly, it is not any option
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2014-04-16T14:02:27Z Sir_herrbatka: i'm implementing this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quine–McCluskey_algorithm
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2014-04-16T14:03:55Z segv-: Sir_herrbatka: so i assume you don't have a list of all the items you need to process at once? they're somehow generated from some function?
2014-04-16T14:04:12Z segv-: (loop for item = (next-item) when (filter item) collect item)
2014-04-16T14:04:19Z segv-: (loop for item = (next-item) when (filter item) do (stuff item))
2014-04-16T14:04:21Z segv-: or something
2014-04-16T14:04:33Z segv-: maybe a while item in there somewhere
2014-04-16T14:04:41Z Sir_herrbatka: segv-: i have, but i want to compare 2 pos with 3 pos
2014-04-16T14:04:45Z segv-: hard to say with a just a wikipedia page to go off of
2014-04-16T14:05:09Z segv-: (loop for (first second) on list when (filter first second) collect first)
2014-04-16T14:05:13Z Sir_herrbatka: so when going ot 3 and 4 i don't want to process elements from the 3 that were already matched
2014-04-16T14:05:20Z segv-: obviously that'll never return the last element of the list
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2014-04-16T14:05:53Z segv-: but for (first second) on list will "return" two elements of the list at once
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2014-04-16T14:07:31Z Sir_herrbatka: so i have to create a copy
2014-04-16T14:07:37Z Sir_herrbatka: lame
2014-04-16T14:07:47Z segv-: Sir_herrbatka: you don't have to create a copy, no
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2014-04-16T14:08:27Z segv-: it's certainly simpler to implement this way though, and if you're asking if it can be done at all (which it obviously can) i'm not sure it's worth your time to learn to do it the other way
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2014-04-16T14:08:45Z Sir_herrbatka: right
2014-04-16T14:09:48Z segv-: (loop for head = list while list if (filter (first head) (second head)) then (setf head (cdr list)) else (setf list (cddr list) head list))
2014-04-16T14:09:58Z segv-: i'm sure that's buggy, but that'd be the rough idea
2014-04-16T14:10:10Z segv-: ah, it is buggy :)
2014-04-16T14:10:18Z segv-: (loop for head = list while list if (filter (first head) (second head)) then (setf head (cdr list)) else (setf (cdr list) (cddr list) head list))
2014-04-16T14:10:39Z segv-: or something. basicaally you modify the CDRs of the elements of the list and cut out the ones you don't want
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2014-04-16T14:10:56Z segv-: the edge cases (first element, last element, second to last element, empty list) require work
2014-04-16T14:11:21Z Sir_herrbatka: i will make a copy of that silly list
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2014-04-16T14:12:33Z H4ns: first make it right, then make it fast.
2014-04-16T14:13:16Z segv-: H4ns knows what he's talking about.
2014-04-16T14:13:26Z Sir_herrbatka: H4ns: well, i'm kinda disappointed because with C++ i can simply remove while in loop
2014-04-16T14:13:27Z H4ns: *cough*
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2014-04-16T14:13:57Z H4ns: Sir_herrbatka: that may well be, and you can certainly use a data structure in cl that allows you to do the same.
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2014-04-16T14:14:23Z Sir_herrbatka: but not list, as it seems?
2014-04-16T14:14:41Z H4ns: Sir_herrbatka: the question is whether that'd give you any advantage in terms of readability or performance.  it is best to abandon your c++ habits when learning cl, otherwise it will be a long run of disappointment.
2014-04-16T14:14:59Z Sir_herrbatka: not that simple to do that
2014-04-16T14:15:04Z H4ns: Sir_herrbatka: a list is a very simple and low-level data structure.  it is easy to use, but has its limitations.
2014-04-16T14:15:50Z Sir_herrbatka: well, i have idea how to do this
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2014-04-16T14:17:48Z Poenikatu: Sir_herrbatka, I agree that it's not simple to do. Nevertheless, you'll find that CL is a much more flexible language and that it must be taken on its own merits, not compared with C++
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2014-04-16T14:30:08Z Sir_herrbatka: Poenikatu: i guess, i'm learning it
2014-04-16T14:30:22Z Sir_herrbatka: H4ns: but i can use recursion, right?
2014-04-16T14:30:36Z Sir_herrbatka: so it will work and won't look like crap
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2014-04-16T14:31:27Z H4ns: Sir_herrbatka: you can certainly use recursion if that is useful.
2014-04-16T14:31:49Z Sir_herrbatka: it would look better, that's it
2014-04-16T14:31:56Z Poenikatu: Sir_herrbatka, After 3 failures, I succeeded in learning Emacs lisp last July. Then in September, I decided to go "whole hog" and learn CL. I'm still learning it, although I have already written a few programs (but none using CLOS).
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2014-04-16T14:33:23Z Sir_herrbatka: btw, what do you think about clonjure (or what it is spelled)
2014-04-16T14:33:50Z H4ns: we think it is off-topic
2014-04-16T14:33:58Z Sir_herrbatka: so it is not lisp?
2014-04-16T14:34:10Z H4ns: Sir_herrbatka: it is not common lisp. this channel is about common lisp.
2014-04-16T14:34:17Z Sir_herrbatka: ok
2014-04-16T14:39:06Z drl: On the command line this works: (replace *a* (list (second '("nnn" "vvv"))) :start1 18)
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2014-04-16T14:39:55Z drl: But in my program this does not work: (replace row (list (second ss)) :start1 23)
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2014-04-16T14:40:16Z H4ns: drl: "does not work", what does that mean?
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2014-04-16T14:41:34Z drl: H4ns: it does not replace the element.
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2014-04-16T14:43:31Z H4ns: drl: i guess that the arguments in your program are different than your arguments in the repl, and that is why.
2014-04-16T14:43:58Z H4ns: drl: i also find it hard to wrap my head around replace.  i avoid destructive operations if i can.
2014-04-16T14:44:16Z H4ns: (because non-destructive operations are usually easier to understand and less prone to error)
2014-04-16T14:44:29Z nyef: Remember: SORT is destructive. (-:
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2014-04-16T14:44:56Z H4ns: i can't avoid the unavoidable :)
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2014-04-16T14:46:40Z Sir_herrbatka: H4ns: actually i think i can remove in loop
2014-04-16T14:46:50Z Sir_herrbatka: because i want to remove from the other loop
2014-04-16T14:46:59Z Sir_herrbatka: s/loop/list
2014-04-16T14:47:37Z drl: What non-destructive function does what replace does?
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2014-04-16T14:50:15Z H4ns: drl: i would look for a way to process the data that does not require an operation like replace, that is how i meant it
2014-04-16T14:50:41Z H4ns: drl: for example, if you're processing one list into another, you could use map or mapcar
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2014-04-16T14:52:17Z nyef: clhs substitute
2014-04-16T14:52:18Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_sbs_s.htm
2014-04-16T14:52:42Z nyef: Hrm. Maybe not.
2014-04-16T14:53:07Z drl: H4ns: Map won't work in this case.
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2014-04-16T14:53:58Z nyef: CONCATENATE 'LIST, SUBSEQ, and suitably gimmicked bounding desginators?
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2014-04-16T14:54:46Z H4ns: drl: as you seem to have a firm conception of what "would work", you'll have to find out why your approach does not work yourself.
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2014-04-16T14:55:14Z H4ns: drl: sprinkle in some debug formats, figure out what the arguments in your program are vs. what they are on the repl.
2014-04-16T14:55:28Z H4ns: drl: with the little information that you give us, it is impossible to give you specific help
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2014-04-16T14:57:31Z chrisdone: (reduce '- '(10) :initial-value 5) → -5
2014-04-16T14:57:32Z chrisdone: is there a variant of REDUCE with opposite arg order, which would yield 5?
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2014-04-16T14:58:26Z ggole: (reduce '- '(10) :initial-value 5 :from-end t)
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2014-04-16T15:06:06Z chrisdone: hm, okay, so (reduce (lambda (x y) `(- ,x ,y)) '(10 11 12) :initial-value 5) yields (- (- (- 5 10) 11) 12) vs (- 10 (- 11 (- 12 5))) with from-end
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2014-04-16T15:09:53Z chrisdone: ggole: works for me! thanks
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2014-04-16T15:10:57Z samebchase: Is it okay to use nreverse here? http://paste.lisp.org/display/142060
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2014-04-16T15:13:18Z samebchase: When is it okay (and when is it not okay) to use it? I see nreverse being used when elements are pushed onto a list called result and then the last form usually is (nreverse result)
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2014-04-16T15:13:49Z samebchase: that's a fairly common idiom I guess
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2014-04-16T15:19:42Z H4ns: it is ok to use nreverse if the list is not otherwise used.  if a function returns a fresh list (like cl-ppcre:split does), nreverse is okay.  if you don't quite understand when it is okay to use it, use reverse
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2014-04-16T15:21:21Z samebchase: Ah.
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2014-04-16T15:35:55Z Xach: If you own the data, you can do what you want with it. (You are still responsible for not doing things like relying on a pattern of side-effects that are not specified.)
2014-04-16T15:36:22Z Xach: If you got the data from someone else, and you don't have any promises about its nature, don't mess with it.
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2014-04-16T15:38:30Z hitecnologys: Greetings.
2014-04-16T15:38:51Z samebchase: Greetings to you too fellow Lisper.
2014-04-16T15:40:13Z hitecnologys: I'm looking for something for streaming audio. Is there anything like this?
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2014-04-16T15:41:43Z Shinmera: PCL discusses implementing a shoutcast server
2014-04-16T15:41:49Z Shinmera: or are we talking client?
2014-04-16T15:41:57Z hitecnologys: Nah, just server.
2014-04-16T15:42:02Z Shinmera: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/practical-a-shoutcast-server.html
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2014-04-16T15:42:22Z hitecnologys: Nice, thanks a lot.
2014-04-16T15:42:48Z Shinmera: It uses AllegroServe, but it shouldn't be difficult to adapt to something else
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2014-04-16T15:43:30Z hitecnologys: That is what I can handle, I guess.
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2014-04-16T17:48:07Z jasom: After all the discussion yesterday, I give you "let" defined as a macro without quasiquotation: (defmacro mylet2 (vs &body forms) (append (list (append (list 'lambda (append (list '&optional) (mapcar (lambda (x) (list (if (listp x) (car x) x))) vs))) forms)) (mapcar (lambda (x) (and (listp x) (cadr x))) vs)))
2014-04-16T17:49:02Z Bike: why without quasiquotation?
2014-04-16T17:49:09Z jasom: Bike: because I haven't implemented that yet
2014-04-16T17:49:14Z Bike: heh, sensible
2014-04-16T17:49:14Z jasom really needs to
2014-04-16T17:50:07Z jasom: I think let* can most easily be accomplished by &optional arguments and default parameters and then calling it with no arguments
2014-04-16T17:50:38Z jasom: (let* ((a b) (c d) ...) => ((lambda (&optional (a b) (c d)) ...))
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2014-04-16T17:51:28Z jasom: since default parameter forms are guaranteed to be evaluated (and added to the environment) left-to-right
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2014-04-16T17:52:36Z Bike: sounds right to me.
2014-04-16T17:52:40Z jasom: Then, I only need to get declarations right once (in lambda)
2014-04-16T17:52:49Z easye: Ooh.  Quicklisp slowed down by 50% on loading setup in ABCL with the 2014-01-30 client.
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2014-04-16T17:56:19Z Xach: but why!
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2014-04-16T18:24:57Z jasom: "As long as alists are more syntactically blessed than hash tables, people will use them where another data structure would be more appropriate."
2014-04-16T18:26:05Z jasom: A conclusion from http://artyom.me/learning-racket-1
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2014-04-16T18:26:21Z jasom: Though talking about racket, it equally applies to common-lisp
2014-04-16T18:26:43Z Bike: i should really figure out what would be better for sparse vectors than an alist
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2014-04-16T18:27:51Z jasom: Though I don't get the people that think keyword arguments should be in something other than a plist.  with keyword arguments you need to read every single argument anyway, so there is no advantage to some other dictionary type
2014-04-16T18:28:18Z Xach: I like the syntactic equality of access quite a bit.
2014-04-16T18:29:49Z Xach: when hash table lookup is syntax and everything else is a function call, things can get a little odd.
2014-04-16T18:29:50Z Vivitron: I find myself pushed more toward hash tables than towards alists with common lisp.  Often I find gethash and (setf gethash) is the interface I want
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2014-04-16T18:31:03Z Xach: "how can i turn this problem into a chain of array and hash table lookups?"
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2014-04-16T18:32:23Z jasom: Xach: I think the actual complaint is a lack of hash-table literals
2014-04-16T18:32:33Z jasom: alists and arrays don't have syntax either
2014-04-16T18:33:25Z jasom: e.g. you can do `((:foo . ,(+ 1 2)) (:bar . 2)) ;; the equivalent with hash-tables gets messy (or calls into a non-standard function like alexandria:alist-hash-table
2014-04-16T18:33:30Z Bike: even on the function level, there's no way to fill a hash table on initialization, like you can do with list, vector, or make-array :initial-contents
2014-04-16T18:33:47Z Bike: i mean you can make such a function easily i guess.
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2014-04-16T18:34:08Z Bike: oh, and acons, not that anyone much uses it
2014-04-16T18:35:33Z jasom: I first started using hash-tables over alists when I was using keys that weren't testable with eql.  I think my largest table was like 10 elements so it wasn't a performance thing, just "wait, which test am I supposed to use?"
2014-04-16T18:36:10Z jdz: alists actually support arbitrary tests, as opposed to hash tables
2014-04-16T18:36:31Z jasom: jdz: but you need to pass the specific test in each time you do a lookup
2014-04-16T18:36:43Z jasom: hash-tables remember which test they are supposed to use
2014-04-16T18:36:54Z Bike: maybe it would help if hash tables were more... developed? like if you had cl:define-hash-table-test, and something like replace, i dunno
2014-04-16T18:37:31Z phadthai: in rare cases after profiling some applications where performance mattered, and noticing that some of my uses of hash tables were slower than alist because tables were getting recreated often and contained few elements, I switched some of them to alists; I otherwise also tend to use hash tables more
2014-04-16T18:38:28Z Xach: Bike: i use acons
2014-04-16T18:38:55Z Bike: me too, just not much, you know?
2014-04-16T18:39:18Z jasom: I use acons as well.  But I'm somewhat self-taught so my style is odd.  It's getting more conformant since hanging out in here though (been a year or two I think?)
2014-04-16T18:39:27Z phadthai: hmm I have two uses of acons in a repository here heh
2014-04-16T18:40:04Z jasom: 16 lines containing acons in my ~/src/lisp directory
2014-04-16T18:40:20Z jasom: with 154k lines total
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2014-04-16T18:40:56Z jasonsmr: hello lisp channel
2014-04-16T18:40:58Z phadthai: in ~30k lines
2014-04-16T18:41:00Z jasom: though I just noticed I have ASDF in there; so subtract 64k from that
2014-04-16T18:41:33Z jasom: 24k lines rather
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2014-04-16T18:58:37Z enn: Is there any way to use fare-memoization with a generic function, short of wrapping it in an ordinary function?
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2014-04-16T19:06:16Z jasom: enn: it should work fine just looking at the code; it calls symbol-function which should work for generic functions
2014-04-16T19:07:18Z enn: when I call memoize on a symbol naming a generic function, then try to C-c C-k the file, my defmethods error because that symbol now names an ordinary function
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2014-04-16T19:07:23Z enn: no big deal, I'll just wrap it
2014-04-16T19:08:27Z Xach: is it an option not to C-c C-k the file afterwards?
2014-04-16T19:08:29Z jdz: enn: try first using defgeneric
2014-04-16T19:10:48Z jdz: although, it probably will not work, because the library is probably trying to set symbol-function
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2014-04-16T19:10:57Z enn: Xach: not really, there will probably be further changes to the various method bodies and I don't want to have to rebuild the whole project every time.
2014-04-16T19:10:59Z jdz: not trying, but actually setting
2014-04-16T19:11:15Z jasom: ah crap, that's right
2014-04-16T19:11:46Z jasom: yeah, I'd just wrap it in an ordinary function
2014-04-16T19:12:03Z enn: ok, thanks, just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything obvious
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2014-04-16T19:12:37Z jdz: maybe the library can be made to accept a symbol naming the new (memoized) function?
2014-04-16T19:12:53Z jdz: instead of re-using the same name
2014-04-16T19:14:08Z jasom: There is "memoizing" which does nearly that
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2014-04-16T19:16:57Z jasom: It returns a closure to call the memoized function
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2014-04-16T19:25:01Z clintm: In cxml, how do you put a numeric value into an attribute?  For example: (cxml:with-attribute "Thing" (cxml:<something besides text> 2))
2014-04-16T19:25:37Z clintm: Oops, that's (cxml:with-element "Thing" (cxml:<something besides text> 2))
2014-04-16T19:25:53Z clintm: To get <Thing>2</Thing>
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2014-04-16T19:26:40Z Bike: isn't that content, rather than an attribute? and can you just use write-to-string?
2014-04-16T19:27:12Z clintm: Here, I'll make a paste.  Probably should have done that to begin with.
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2014-04-16T19:36:27Z clintm: Bike: the objective is to get <Thing>2</Thing>.  <Thing>"2"</Thing> is trivial using (cxml:text "2").
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2014-04-16T19:39:49Z Bike: i don't see any extra quotes with (with-element "foo" (text "2"))
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2014-04-16T19:47:14Z clintm: Bike: apparently, my brain decided to take a quick vacation.  Thanks for your help, just the same!
2014-04-16T19:47:26Z Bike: no problem, apparently
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2014-04-16T20:17:04Z dmiles_afk: lisp locatives seem abandoned idea? are they like prolog variables?
2014-04-16T20:17:35Z p_l: dmiles_afk: closer to pointers, iirc
2014-04-16T20:17:59Z nyef: Were locatives even used prior to the invention of the LispM?
2014-04-16T20:18:00Z jasom: clhs locf
2014-04-16T20:18:00Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for locf.
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2014-04-16T20:18:26Z jasom: http://common-lisp.net/project/bknr/static/lmman/fd-loc.xml
2014-04-16T20:19:16Z p_l: nyef: iirc they arrived on LispM
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2014-04-16T20:19:35Z nyef: Yeah, that's the impression I got, which puts them to the level of "cute hardware hack".
2014-04-16T20:20:11Z dmiles_afk: i keep seeing them as the lightest wieth way to pace arround a place
2014-04-16T20:20:20Z p_l: nyef: iirc they weren't so much a hardware hack as much as interface to lower level pointers and such, and SETF&co's "fields" are limited form of them
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2014-04-16T20:20:37Z p_l: a representation of a reference, let's say
2014-04-16T20:20:46Z jasom: p_l: they exposed cdr-coding as well
2014-04-16T20:21:15Z dmiles_afk: the lightest way to pass arround a place .. though lightest is a bad use.. but sometimes i wish they were standard object liek a cons
2014-04-16T20:22:01Z dmiles_afk: i would like to pass a list of  places.. without meta interpreting how i got to that place
2014-04-16T20:22:42Z dmiles_afk: though i supposed "how i got to that place" is how the getter/setter of that place should get there to ;(
2014-04-16T20:22:45Z drewc: p_l:  CFFI::POINTER? :)
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2014-04-16T20:23:15Z nyef: dmiles_afk: So, no closing over the requisite accessors?
2014-04-16T20:23:59Z p_l: drewc: on current implementations it would be akin to a high level interface to pointers
2014-04-16T20:24:12Z p_l: jasom: because CDR-coding was inherent to LispM pointers, afaik
2014-04-16T20:24:37Z drewc: dmiles_afk: (lambda (&optional value) (if value (setf ... value) (...))) ?
2014-04-16T20:24:38Z nyef: Not so much to the pointers as to the referenced storage.
2014-04-16T20:24:38Z dmiles_afk: i think the answer is yes..  i have an object i can get set/to .. like a symbol macro.. withing that symbol macro i have a code that  gets/set the real database location.. usualy imbeeded in soem deep association list
2014-04-16T20:25:39Z dmiles_afk: usualy imbeded down some deep association list.. i surely could return the cons that held that place
2014-04-16T20:25:59Z dmiles_afk: bt i dont want to commit to it being a cons
2014-04-16T20:26:05Z p_l: in general, though, I recall locatives as equivalent of having SETF-like fields outside of SETF
2014-04-16T20:26:42Z nyef: My feeling is that if you find yourself wanting to use locatives, you're probably being far, far too clever for your own good.
2014-04-16T20:26:49Z drewc: p_l: so, (LIST (CFFI-SYS:MAKE-POINTER ...) (CFFI-SYS:MAKE-POINTER ...)) :P
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2014-04-16T20:27:00Z dmiles_afk: yes to drewc and and nyef's question yeah
2014-04-16T20:27:36Z dmiles_afk: and yes.. i am trying to be too clever :( .. i admit.. i am trying to make an optimized verison of prolog unification.. i want locatives to be the prolog vars :)
2014-04-16T20:28:04Z nyef: Umm... While I think about it, there was this cute trick that SBCL does to handle load-time value processing in cold-init.
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2014-04-16T20:28:28Z dmiles_afk: so when i unify the head of cuase.. i get for free the bindings .. in the body
2014-04-16T20:28:34Z nyef: Used to be that the cold-core would have a bunch of SAPs (untyped pointers) into heap space with which to patch various objects.
2014-04-16T20:28:38Z dmiles_afk: thughj due.. i keep forgetitng i can gensym
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2014-04-16T20:29:04Z p_l: nyef: a fully relocatable core would be nice, though ;_;
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2014-04-16T20:29:32Z nyef: Didn't work so well if we relocated the heap, though. So what it is now is an offset from the tagged pointer value of the surrounding object to the slot, plus the surrounding object. A quick get-lisp-obj-address + int-sap + sap-ref-lispobj, and done.
2014-04-16T20:29:35Z dmiles_afk: thaks though i did need the sanity check to whyt i cant find locatives anymore
2014-04-16T20:30:36Z nyef: p_l: So... Stuff NIL into a register and add a "support vector" to call through to get to any important assembly routines. What's the big deal?
2014-04-16T20:30:53Z nyef: (Well, other than not being able to do that on x86, that is.)
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2014-04-16T20:32:52Z p_l: nyef: I was thinking more of "relocate at load time"
2014-04-16T20:33:15Z p_l: possibly by having dedicated pages in image containing position-dependant pointers to patch
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2014-04-16T20:34:48Z nyef: I was as well, by having there be no pointers in the heap not findable by a quick GC pass.
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2014-04-16T20:35:06Z nyef: Anyway, I'm out of time for right now. I'll be back in an hour or so.
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2014-04-16T21:06:42Z jasom: Is it acceptable to destructure &whole?  It's not clear to me from the spec.
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2014-04-16T21:08:52Z drewc saw &whole and used it once about 10 years ago, and completely forgot about it 'till last week... it has popped up multiple times since then!
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2014-04-16T21:09:55Z Bike: jasom: sbcl lets me do it. didn't expect that.
2014-04-16T21:10:43Z jasom: Bike: clhs 3.4.4 says that "Anywhere in a macro lambda list where a parameter name can appear, and where ordinary lambda list syntax (as described in Section 3.4.1 (Ordinary Lambda Lists)) does not otherwise allow a list, a destructuring lambda list can appear in place of the parameter name. "
2014-04-16T21:11:04Z Bike: i guesss that sounds like it's allowed
2014-04-16T21:11:16Z jasom: however it also says that &whole takes "a single variable" and I'm not sure if "single variable" and "parameter" are the same
2014-04-16T21:12:24Z jasom: It seems to use variable and parameter interchangably in other places in that section
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2014-04-16T21:14:31Z jasom: Is there a list of errata in the hyperspec?
2014-04-16T21:14:43Z drewc: jasom: cliki has one
2014-04-16T21:15:05Z jasom: "A destructuring lambda list can contain all of the lambda list keywords listed for macro lambda lists except for &environment..." further down the same page, in the grammar for the lambda list: envvar::= [&environment var]
2014-04-16T21:15:20Z drewc: and ISTR &whole being there somewhere ... which is why I remember it I think
2014-04-16T21:16:59Z jasom: drewc: http://cliki.net/Proposed%20ANSI%20Revisions%20and%20Clarifications <-- that what you're talking about?
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2014-04-16T21:23:17Z drewc: jasonsmr: there is something else to ... like "one step beyond" the standard ... but TBH I have no idea, it has been a while.
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2014-04-16T21:41:23Z nyef: Destructuring &WHOLE? Yeah, that's almost what it's there for: It's like &REST, but doesn't indent the same way if you use a smart editor. The only reason for it not to indent like &BODY is if it's not really meant for code, at which point you've probably got a set of clauses of some sort, so...
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2014-04-16T21:42:20Z IanFin: Hello
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2014-04-16T21:42:54Z jasom: nyef: &whole in a destructring-lambda-list is clearly okay, I was talking about in a macro-lambda-list (at the top-level)...
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2014-04-16T21:43:51Z nyef: So was I. A destructuring-lambda-list is a macro-lambda-list for local games without having to play sillybuggers to get it.
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2014-04-16T21:43:54Z jasom: And also kvetching about how the spec says "a single variable" when they apparently don't mean "a single variable" but rather "a parameter"
2014-04-16T21:44:04Z nyef: (See the issue writeup behind DESTRUCTURING-BIND.)
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2014-04-16T21:44:33Z nyef: Mmm. Parameters are the values, variables are where they get stuffed... I mean, stored.
2014-04-16T21:45:02Z jasom: and in the case of a macro lambda list, a parameter may be a destructuring form
2014-04-16T21:45:31Z jasom: "&whole is followed by a single variable that is bound to the entire macro-call form" is confusing if the intent is to allow destructuring with &whole
2014-04-16T21:46:04Z nyef: Oh! You mean with the variable-position involved in &WHOLE? Hrm.
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2014-04-16T21:46:58Z nyef: And I'm mixing up &WHOLE with something else anyway.
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2014-04-16T21:48:29Z jasom: sbcl and clisp allow it, ccl does not
2014-04-16T21:48:42Z jasom: hooray, I'm not the only one confused!
2014-04-16T21:48:59Z nyef: Yeah, I'm confused now as well.
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2014-04-16T21:50:07Z jasom: nested &whole is explicitly allowed to be destructured, but top-level &whole in macro lambda lists is ambiguous
2014-04-16T21:51:02Z jasom: (defmacro test (&whole (a &rest b) &rest r) `'(list ,a ,b)) <== works in sbcl and clisp, ccl complains that "(A &REST B) is not a symbol"
2014-04-16T21:51:42Z nyef: Where is this ever allowed at any level?
2014-04-16T21:52:06Z jasom: clhs 3.4.4.1.2
2014-04-16T21:52:06Z specbot: Lambda-list-directed Destructuring by Lambda Lists: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_ddab.htm
2014-04-16T21:52:12Z nyef: Oh, hell. Yeah, just found that.
2014-04-16T21:53:33Z nyef: ... And interpreting it depends on the meaning of "destructuring pattern.
2014-04-16T21:53:52Z jasom: nyef: destructuring pattern is clearly defined 2 levels up
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2014-04-16T21:54:16Z nyef: In 3.4.4?
2014-04-16T21:54:27Z nyef: Not seeing it.
2014-04-16T21:54:35Z jasom: pattern::=
2014-04-16T21:55:39Z Bike: does non-toplevel &whole destructuring work in ccl? i've ran into some obscure problems with ccl's lambda lists before.
2014-04-16T21:56:50Z jasom: Bike: yes non-toplevel &whole destructuring works
2014-04-16T21:56:56Z jasom: or at least it smoke-tests
2014-04-16T21:57:14Z Bike: odd.
2014-04-16T21:58:38Z nyef: I'm getting the distinct impression that the form following &WHOLE should be a symbol, always.
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2014-04-16T21:59:07Z jasom: nyef: that's definitely not true for non-toplevel
2014-04-16T22:00:07Z nyef: The grammar, when combined with the grammar in 3.4.1 for an ordinary lambda list, can only be interpreted as requiring a symbol there.
2014-04-16T22:00:44Z jasom: nyef: clhs 3.4.4.1
2014-04-16T22:01:12Z Bike: 3.4.4 has "reqvars::= var*" and "wholevar::= [&whole var]", and reqvars can obviously destructure, so...
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2014-04-16T22:02:33Z nyef: Only applies to those aspects that appear in an ordinary lambda list, which means required variables, &OPTIONAL, &REST, and &KEY.
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2014-04-16T22:03:13Z nyef: ... maybe.
2014-04-16T22:03:33Z jasom: nyef: where it doesn't "allow a list"
2014-04-16T22:03:39Z Bike: well, practically speaking, i'm not sure why ccl would allow non-toplevel &whole but not toplevel &whole, it's already got the parsing functinoality
2014-04-16T22:03:52Z jasom: Bike: probably a literal reading of 3.4.4
2014-04-16T22:04:26Z jasom: nyef: an ordinary lambda list doesn't allow a list after &whole so ...
2014-04-16T22:04:26Z nyef: I think I'm going to give up on this for now.
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2014-04-16T22:05:19Z jasom: A litteral reading of 3.4.4 in isolation would say it's definitely not allowed, and a literal reading of 3.4.4.1 in isolation would say it's definitely allowed
2014-04-16T22:05:45Z jasom: Since a parameter name can appear after &whole and an ordinary lambda list doesn't otherwise allow a list after &whole
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2014-04-16T22:08:49Z drewc wants to look through his ANSI standard MIT mailing list LispM stuff where &whole is likely debated :)
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2014-04-16T22:12:13Z nyef: See if you can find any mention of &quote while you're at it?
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2014-04-16T22:21:52Z axion: is there a function in sbcl that prints the system uptime, or should i read from proc/executable?
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2014-04-16T22:23:19Z Xach: axion: get-internal-real-time kind of.
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2014-04-16T22:46:06Z marioxcc: hello
2014-04-16T22:46:16Z marioxcc: is there a macro than is to flet as let* is to let?
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2014-04-16T22:48:50Z marioxcc: oh, I see, that's "labels"
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2014-04-16T23:05:49Z jasom: marioxcc: actually labels is even more inclusive; any function defined in labels can call any other
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2014-04-16T23:06:31Z marioxcc: jasom: right, thanks
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2014-04-16T23:26:05Z slyrus: how can I inspect setf functions? e.g. I don't want #'foo, but rather #'(setf foo) (which of course doesn't work)
2014-04-16T23:26:21Z jasom: #'(setf foo) I think should work
2014-04-16T23:26:58Z slyrus: so it does. thanks!
2014-04-16T23:27:03Z jasom: FUNCTION takes a function name or lambda expression and (setf foo) is a valid function name
2014-04-16T23:27:56Z jasom just implemented function in his interpreter
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2014-04-16T23:28:15Z slyrus: I was mistakenly looking at something with a define-setf-expander and not finding it
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2014-04-16T23:28:40Z jasom: slyrus: ah, yes.
2014-04-16T23:29:20Z jasom: Speaking of which, does anyone have practical advice for when to use (defun (setf foo)) versus defmacro versus define-setf-expander?
2014-04-16T23:29:40Z jasom: I'm aware of how they work, just a quick heuristic for "which do I need"
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2014-04-16T23:30:19Z slyrus: when you need multiple-value setf
2014-04-16T23:32:15Z jasom: huh?
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2014-04-16T23:33:06Z nyef: Typically, you use define-setf-expander when you either need to deal with multiple values or need to deal with a place which doesn't bear multiple evaluation in a read-modify-write context.
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2014-04-16T23:33:49Z jasom: nyef: I know the multiple-evaluation one; why wouldn't defun (setf ...) work for multiple values?
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2014-04-16T23:34:09Z nyef: How do you get it to accept multiple values?
2014-04-16T23:34:09Z jasom: Most of the time I try to make it so I can safely macroexpand to a valid place; that's the simplest for my brain
2014-04-16T23:34:27Z jasom: ohh
2014-04-16T23:34:38Z drewc: (defun (setf foo) (multiple-values ...)) ? :)
2014-04-16T23:34:42Z nyef: Yeah, it's the simple questions that get overlooked easily.
2014-04-16T23:34:55Z nyef: clim setf*
2014-04-16T23:34:59Z nyef: Hrm.
2014-04-16T23:35:20Z nyef: That's no good. /-:
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2014-04-16T23:36:03Z jasom hasn't needed to do that before, I just use (setf (values (foo ) (bar ) (baz))) but I can see where you might need to
2014-04-16T23:36:40Z slyrus: jasom: I needed to setf multiple values for opticl's pixel setting routines
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2014-04-16T23:37:01Z jasom: yup
2014-04-16T23:37:10Z nyef: A lot of CLIM stuff is defined in terms of multiple values.
2014-04-16T23:37:20Z jasom ended up using lists for color-spaces in his color library
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2014-04-16T23:37:47Z nyef: (Which led to me doing some sort-out of SBCL's SETF implementation a while back...)
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2014-04-16T23:38:30Z jasom: bad jasom; you didn't publish your color library anywhere.  What if someone badly needs to convert from sRGB to cieLAB and then output it as an html color string?
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2014-04-16T23:51:08Z slyrus: hrm... should I need to wrap a define-setf-expander in an (eval-when (...) ) if I expect to use that setf-expander later in the same file?
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2014-04-16T23:51:32Z jasom: no
2014-04-16T23:51:44Z jasom: "If a define-setf-expander form appears as a top level form, the compiler must make the setf expander available so that it may be used to expand calls to setf later on in the file."
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2014-04-16T23:53:40Z jasom: Similar language appears in pretty much every standard macro that starts with "def"
2014-04-16T23:54:53Z nyef: With a notable exception for the one that ends with "un".
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2014-04-17T01:45:38Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2014-04-17T01:48:22Z Bike: aloha, beach
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2014-04-17T01:50:13Z theos: sup beach
2014-04-17T01:50:56Z nyef: Hello beach.
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2014-04-17T01:51:12Z beach: Making progress on CLVM (which is now called "Cleavir").  It is fun to read all the papers and then adapt the algorithms to Lisp.
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2014-04-17T01:51:55Z nyef: ... What's CLVM?
2014-04-17T01:52:23Z beach: The LLVM idea, but for CL.
2014-04-17T01:52:28Z nyef: Ah.
2014-04-17T01:52:55Z nyef: You're not targeting ARM, are you?
2014-04-17T01:53:25Z beach: That's one of the planned targets.  The other ones are x86-32 and x86-64.
2014-04-17T01:53:39Z nyef: But it's not an initial target?
2014-04-17T01:53:58Z beach: Probably not.  I don't have an ARM myself, so it is easier to test the others.
2014-04-17T01:54:24Z nyef: It'd be easier to test the others anyway, as you'd probably be starting with an x86oid build host in the first place.
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2014-04-17T01:54:49Z beach: Yeah, maybe so.
2014-04-17T01:55:10Z beach: Though I do have a fairly large number of ARM instructions formally described.
2014-04-17T01:55:19Z beach: So I could write an ARM emulator.
2014-04-17T01:55:47Z beach: It turns out the descriptions of ARM instructions are quite Lispy.
2014-04-17T01:56:45Z nyef: Hrm. There's some thought there about using abstract interpretation to prove that the low-level code is equivalent to the high-level source...
2014-04-17T01:57:26Z beach: Interesting, but that sounds like it's beyond the scope of what I need.
2014-04-17T01:59:23Z nyef: Yeah, similar here. An automated proof that my current project is broken isn't necessary, I already know that it's broken. I just don't quite know WHERE.
2014-04-17T01:59:27Z beach: The SICL compiler already generates x86-64 code, so it is probably easier to start there anyway.  Cleavir is the modularized, implementation-independent version of all that.
2014-04-17T01:59:40Z beach: Heh!
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2014-04-17T02:00:33Z beach: My description of ARM is interesting, because it makes explicit the various bit fields of the ARM instruction.  It could be used for an assembler/disassembler.
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2014-04-17T02:00:52Z beach: In fact, I would accept contributions to that.
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2014-04-17T02:01:40Z nyef: On the one hand, sounds interesting. On the other hand, I have quite a few projects already.
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2014-04-17T02:02:11Z beach: nyef: Yes, I know.  I didn't necessarily mean you personally.
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2014-04-17T02:02:21Z nyef: (Recent book acquisition that I've barely had time to flip through: The SPARC Architecture Manual, Version 9.)
2014-04-17T02:02:39Z beach: Nice! :)
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2014-04-17T02:03:08Z nyef: Nice to have, not nice to not have time to really sit down with it.
2014-04-17T02:03:18Z beach: Yeah.
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2014-04-17T02:03:51Z beach: That reminds me of a compiler I wrote once, targeting the SPARC.  Experience: whatever you do, don't use register windows!
2014-04-17T02:04:03Z nyef: Heh.
2014-04-17T02:04:23Z beach: Though the language in question was a lot more recursive than most CL code.
2014-04-17T02:04:36Z pillton: Good morning beach.
2014-04-17T02:04:42Z beach: Hey pillton.
2014-04-17T02:04:43Z nyef: And I'm currently wondering if I should invest in an SGI Tezro system, given that Linux apparently doesn't boot on it, and I'd be wanting it as a multi-CPU MIPS box.
2014-04-17T02:05:02Z nyef: Okay, a multi-CPU Linux MIPS box.
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2014-04-17T02:05:09Z Zhivago: I didn't realize that SGI still existed.
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2014-04-17T02:08:00Z nyef: I don't know that it does, but the hardware doesn't just vanish overnight.
2014-04-17T02:09:41Z beach: I assume it would not be too expensive used?
2014-04-17T02:10:14Z nyef: I don't know about that.
2014-04-17T02:10:23Z nyef: What constitutes "too expensive"?
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2014-04-17T02:11:44Z beach: Wikipedia says 20500 USD in 2003.  That's a bit stiff.
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2014-04-17T02:12:22Z pillton: We have a cluster containing 128 SGI Altix processors.
2014-04-17T02:12:42Z nyef: Yeah, I'm looking at prices in the sub-$1200 range.
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2014-04-17T02:13:42Z nyef: pillton: What's that in CPU architecture terms (MIPS, Itanium, or something else), and what OS are you running?
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2014-04-17T02:15:17Z pillton: nyef: I don't have access to it sorry. Is this helpful? http://www.tpac.org.au/resources/tpac-hpc-facilities/
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2014-04-17T02:18:04Z nyef: Hrm... Looks sweet, but also gives a definite feeling of being based on Itanium.
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2014-04-17T02:20:30Z nyef: What I'm really hoping for is to be able to con someone into maintaining the SBCL MIPS backend.
2014-04-17T02:21:23Z pillton: I don't know anything about MIPS, but if the truck containing money was big enough, you can con me. :)
2014-04-17T02:21:39Z nyef: Heh.
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2014-04-17T02:26:15Z pillton: I presented a library I've written at work to my boss's boss the other day. Turns out he used lisp back in the day and loves the code is data is code philosophy.
2014-04-17T02:27:36Z beach: Lucky for you.
2014-04-17T02:27:53Z beach: It is usually a better idea to keep quiet about Lisp.
2014-04-17T02:28:11Z pillton: That is my experience as well.
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2014-04-17T02:33:36Z beach: Hmm, many of the algorithms of compiler theory are written as if we are still using Fortran, using parallel arrays and indices rather than objects.  We clearly need a modern version of the Muchnick book.
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2014-04-17T02:34:45Z Bike: what algorithms are you thinking of?
2014-04-17T02:35:29Z beach: Dominance, SSA conversion, value numbering, constant propagation, common subexpression elimination, you name it.
2014-04-17T02:36:05Z pillton: Is this a bug? http://hastebin.com/depekubapo
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2014-04-17T02:36:41Z Bike: no, the error says exactly what you did wrong
2014-04-17T02:36:47Z beach: Bike: Many of these algorithms date back to the 80s and 90s.  I don't know whether the authors just don't know about modern programming techniques, or whether this is just an accepted style for presenting algorithms.
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2014-04-17T02:37:20Z Bike: beach: i guess i'm just wondering because the few compiler papers i've read didn't seem to have the problem
2014-04-17T02:37:21Z pillton: Bike: How is it any different to http://hastebin.com/xubawuregi ?
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2014-04-17T02:38:32Z Bike: literal objects in compiled code work differently from literal arrays, there's this whole setup with teaching the compiler how to dump objects and initialization functions and stuff
2014-04-17T02:38:59Z beach: pillton: You might want load-time-value.
2014-04-17T02:39:03Z beach: clhs load-time-value
2014-04-17T02:39:03Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_ld_tim.htm
2014-04-17T02:39:36Z mzgcz: I finished lisp-koans, and I want to go further with other's projects. which one may I choose from begin
2014-04-17T02:39:36Z Bike: yeah, essentially, a standard-object is actually going to be a load-time-value
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2014-04-17T02:40:00Z nyef: Also have a look at make-load-form.
2014-04-17T02:40:03Z nyef: clhs make-load-form
2014-04-17T02:40:03Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_ld_.htm
2014-04-17T02:40:16Z Bike: yes that's the one. was slipping my mind
2014-04-17T02:41:10Z beach: mzgcz: Are you saying that you are looking for some Lisp project to work on?
2014-04-17T02:42:04Z zRecursive: Can chromebook run lisp ?
2014-04-17T02:42:16Z pillton: beach Bike: thanks.
2014-04-17T02:42:41Z mzgcz: beach: yes, but more learn than work
2014-04-17T02:43:15Z beach: mzgcz: How about some simple game like Klotski or Tic-Tac-Toe.
2014-04-17T02:43:47Z zRecursive googling ...
2014-04-17T02:44:36Z nyef: zRecursive: If you have a proper Linux userland on it then it'd be more likely. If it's an ARM system, you're looking at CCL, CLISP, or ECL as basic options at the moment.
2014-04-17T02:44:54Z nyef: If it's an x86oid chromebook and you have a Linux userland then you have more options.
2014-04-17T02:45:55Z pillton: beach Bike: From 3.2.4 "The constraints on literal objects described in this section apply only to compile-file; eval and compile do not copy or coalesce constants."
2014-04-17T02:46:10Z mzgcz: beach, If it's simple in cl, I'm not mind.
2014-04-17T02:46:24Z antonv: mzgcz: what is your programming background? do you have experience programming in other languages?
2014-04-17T02:46:42Z Bike: pillton: you're not concerned with copying and coalescing
2014-04-17T02:46:45Z nyef: Okay, time for me to get some sleep.
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2014-04-17T02:47:33Z pillton: Bike: Hmm.. Doesn't that mean there is a distinction between what the file compiler does and what COMPILE does.
2014-04-17T02:47:53Z Bike: there is a distinction, but it's not really relevant
2014-04-17T02:48:04Z Bike: i mean, (eval '(let ((x '(1 2))) (setf (car x) 3))) is also illegal
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2014-04-17T02:49:27Z Bike: maybe make-load-form isn't really relevant, it's just the restrictions on quoted data.
2014-04-17T02:49:40Z pillton: clhs quote
2014-04-17T02:49:40Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_quote.htm
2014-04-17T02:50:01Z pillton: Bike: "The consequences are undefined if literal objects (including quoted objects) are destructively modified."
2014-04-17T02:50:06Z pillton: Bike: I am not quoting.
2014-04-17T02:50:20Z Bike: your array is a literal object, of course
2014-04-17T02:50:36Z Zhivago: We need more support for figurative objects.
2014-04-17T02:50:59Z Bike: if the object is a literal object, which i'm suddenly not sure of, it just says modifying it has undefined consequences, so your code is UB but not guaranteed to raise an error or nothing
2014-04-17T02:51:22Z pillton: what does UB mean?
2014-04-17T02:51:24Z Zhivago: Almost as good as C in that regard. :)
2014-04-17T02:51:27Z Bike: undefined behavior
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2014-04-17T02:52:12Z Bike: so that gives latitude for instance for one implementation to store literal arrays in some constant memory space, but doesn't require it
2014-04-17T02:52:30Z pillton: Bike: Ok. Cool. Cheers.
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2014-04-17T03:02:10Z mzgcz:  Anarch: my work with c, and sometime use perl
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2014-04-17T03:16:18Z PuercoPop: Oi, where do I find more about writing method combinations, is the AMOP the only resource? I've recently came across some interesting implementations (quid-pro-quo, mao ) and would like to understand them better.
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2014-04-17T03:17:18Z beach: PuercoPop: The AMOP does not discuss writing method combinations very much at all.
2014-04-17T03:17:22Z Bike: hardly anybody uses them
2014-04-17T03:17:41Z Bike: define-method-combination's clhs page is the only real source i could find, but that was pretty much enough for my purposes
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2014-04-17T03:27:04Z PuercoPop: Thanks
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2014-04-17T05:59:23Z zRecursive: nyref, thanks!
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2014-04-17T06:08:07Z DalekBaldwin: can I force slime or quicklisp to recompile a package when I know it relies on macros in another package whose definitions have changed?
2014-04-17T06:09:22Z Bike: asdf as a :force t
2014-04-17T06:09:24Z Bike: has*
2014-04-17T06:10:40Z DalekBaldwin: can I put that in the defsystem form, to recompile if any :depends-on systems have changed?
2014-04-17T06:11:34Z Bike: I don't think so.
2014-04-17T06:16:33Z DalekBaldwin: hm, it's almost easier to just touch a file in the dependent system before reloading then
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2014-04-17T08:37:26Z space_cadet: Is there syntax highlighting at the slime repl?
2014-04-17T08:37:45Z space_cadet: I googled, looked in the swank /contrib and see nothing :/
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2014-04-17T08:46:24Z loke_: space_cadet: Do you need that?
2014-04-17T08:46:42Z space_cadet: No.
2014-04-17T08:46:49Z space_cadet: It would just be nice.
2014-04-17T08:47:18Z space_cadet: I've got presentations, indentation, etc. and no coloring. Buzzkill.
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2014-04-17T08:53:09Z Shinmera: space_cadet: if you do complicated things at the repl where syntax highlighting is a major benefit you should probably do it in a file buffer anyway (and use something like slime-call-defun to see results at the repl)
2014-04-17T08:53:30Z space_cadet: Fair enough.
2014-04-17T08:54:06Z Shinmera: slime-call-defun should be bound to C-c C-y I think
2014-04-17T08:55:42Z Shinmera: Though to be honest I'm not sure why there isn't any colouring. Might be a thing to consider for future slime releases.
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2014-04-17T16:19:03Z segv-: has anybody bothered with this issue: i have a custom reader for a datatype, most of the times i'll be running with a dispatching macro char in the current *readtable* which reads these datatypes. however if i try to print (via print-object) one of these objects and that dispatching macro char is not installed in the readtable, i probably want to signal an error or something.
2014-04-17T16:19:16Z segv-: (hopefully that makes some kind of sense)
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2014-04-17T16:25:25Z nyef: segv-: Depends on if *print-readable* is true, and possibly if you want a fallback that uses #. instead of your reader syntax, and even then if *read-eval* is...  yeah.
2014-04-17T16:25:35Z Bike: segv-: one example of it that comes up is printing specialized arrays
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2014-04-17T16:25:59Z Bike: sbcl signals an error on (let ((*read-eval* nil)) (write (make-array n :element-type '(integer 0 7)) :readably t))
2014-04-17T16:26:14Z nyef: That said, I really don't know how *print-readable* should interact with custom reader syntax.
2014-04-17T16:27:53Z Bike: i wonder what's supposed to happen if you remove standard reader macros and then print something t hat uses them
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2014-04-17T16:28:37Z segv-: if *print-readable* is nil should i go out of my way to output something that's not readable? i generally consider *print-readable* to mean the opposite: when it's T go out of your way to make it readable (by adding in extra escaping or whatever)
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2014-04-17T16:30:09Z segv-: Bike: ha! let me just remove the reader for #\(
2014-04-17T16:30:22Z Bike: yeah, exactly
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2014-04-17T16:31:20Z pjb: It's *print-readably*, not *print-readable* !!!
2014-04-17T16:31:48Z segv-: but there's always with-standard-io-syntax which'll give me the standard readtable (and, in fact, that's exactly what brough this up, the standard readtable doesn't have my custom dispatch reader)
2014-04-17T16:32:00Z segv-: maybe i just add in a with-my-app-syntax and call it a day
2014-04-17T16:32:22Z pjb: You can do (if *print-readably* (format stream "#.(…)" …) (print-unreadable-object (object stream :identity t :type t)))
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2014-04-17T16:33:28Z pjb: Assuming your reader macro calls a constructor, you can get the equivalent reading with #.(constructor parameters…)
2014-04-17T16:33:54Z segv-: pjb: sure, but given a "syntax" that looks like this: #!ALMOST-A-KEYWORD-BUT-NOT-QUITE (with a read macro to read and a print-object method that currently always output #!...)
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2014-04-17T16:34:01Z segv-: would you find it reasonable to do this:
2014-04-17T16:34:01Z pjb: But you can also be careful and set things up to have your reader macro installed when you read back your data.
2014-04-17T16:34:10Z Bike: "If *read-eval* is false and *print-readably* is true, any method for print-object that would output a reference to the #. reader macro either outputs something different or signals an error of type print-not-readable. " oh, it's explicit
2014-04-17T16:34:15Z segv-: (if *print-readably* (format stream "#!~A" ...) (print-unreadable-object ...)) ?
2014-04-17T16:34:49Z pjb: The point is that in any case, *print-readably* *print-eval* *print-suppress* *readtable* etc, can be different when printing than when reading!
2014-04-17T16:35:23Z Bike: pjb: apparently you have to worry about read-eval when printing, though.
2014-04-17T16:35:33Z pjb: So it just doesn't matter.  Do what is specified in print-object vs. *print-readably* because it is specified, and otherwise, manage your environment whenyou read back you data.
2014-04-17T16:36:28Z pjb: Bike: nope. cf clhs print-object, it's clearly explained.
2014-04-17T16:36:51Z Bike: but i'm looking at read-eval and print-readably and it explicitly says what i quoted.
2014-04-17T16:37:05Z foom: Bike: wow, that's a stupid rule. :)
2014-04-17T16:37:25Z pjb: Bike: right, indeed.
2014-04-17T16:37:26Z Bike: i mean, conceptually, what you're saying makes sense, but...
2014-04-17T16:37:52Z foom: I wonder what purpose is served by making print-readably depend on read-eval.
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2014-04-17T16:38:03Z pjb: Well, it's to "help" the programmer who will read again immediately.  But as I said, in general, you have to control your environment.  This rule could have been absent.
2014-04-17T16:38:16Z foom: If there's alternative read syntax available that doesn't use #., why not always use it
2014-04-17T16:38:22Z pjb: So you can demo: (read-from-string (prin1-to-string object)) :-)
2014-04-17T16:38:29Z Bike: foom: laziness is a powerful force
2014-04-17T16:38:32Z foom: If there isn't, it's just silly to raise a print error instead of a read error in that case.
2014-04-17T16:38:43Z pjb: Areed.
2014-04-17T16:38:45Z pjb: g
2014-04-17T16:38:52Z foom: Laziness requires not having extra conditionals in your print system. :)
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2014-04-17T16:39:32Z Bike: sometimes laziness means more work overall. but yeah i dunno.
2014-04-17T16:39:34Z Bike: weird rule.
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2014-04-17T16:43:02Z pjb: Well, CL was condensated from existing implementations. A lot of strange things and crud comes from old Lisps, and making a language that would allow programs to run "conformingly" on all those pre-existing lisps.
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2014-04-17T16:43:17Z pjb: Cf. my intersection CL r5rs emacs-lisp stuff for example :-)
2014-04-17T16:44:20Z pjb: http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/intersection-r5rs-common-lisp-emacs-lisp/index.html
2014-04-17T16:44:33Z pjb: There, a super common lisp! :-)
2014-04-17T16:44:55Z pjb: supercommon lisp
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2014-04-17T16:47:23Z nyef: ... Would that be a common lisp for use on supercomputers?
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2014-04-17T16:57:42Z theos: more parens? >.>
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2014-04-17T17:06:07Z goffew: Hello, I'm having problems developing the logic writing this function. It takes 2 numbers, and calculates the profit increase. Could someone help me with this problem, or give me some pointers please? http://paste.lisp.org/display/142072
2014-04-17T17:06:50Z Xach: goffew: could you describe the process in english?
2014-04-17T17:08:20Z slyrus: ??? profit!
2014-04-17T17:08:54Z goffew: Sure, I'd like to write a function that takes 2 numbers as arguments. The first number is a user's previous amount of (could be currency or anything), and the second is the current amount. I would like to calculate The difference. (profit 1 0) would equal -100% for example
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2014-04-17T17:09:09Z Xach: How do you calculate the difference between two numbers?
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2014-04-17T17:12:09Z goffew: By dividing, but for example (2 1) should be 50%. Also prevent divide by zero errors so (1 0) would be -100%
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2014-04-17T17:12:27Z goffew: I have all sorts of conditionals that aren't working so I started over
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2014-04-17T17:19:16Z _death: goffew: some of the examples don't make sense given your description
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2014-04-17T17:19:53Z goffew: Perhaps why my logic is not working.
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2014-04-17T17:20:11Z _death: goffew: e.g., (profit 2 1) => 100%... or (profit 0 1) => 100%.. or (profit 2 0) => 200%
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2014-04-17T17:20:51Z nicdev: _death: i thought he said (profit 2 0) => -200%
2014-04-17T17:21:00Z _death: nicdev: yeh, my typo.. still doesn't make sense
2014-04-17T17:21:25Z nicdev: i know
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2014-04-17T17:25:57Z goffew: (2 1) should be 50%, sorry. But (2 0) should be -200%, as if you are negative by twice as much as you had if what you had was 100%
2014-04-17T17:26:20Z nyef: Umm... No, you're not.
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2014-04-17T17:28:05Z nyef: (non-0 0), for any non-0, is -100%, because you scale in terms of the first parameter.
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2014-04-17T17:29:26Z goffew: Ok
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2014-04-17T17:50:41Z _death: goffew: btw.. I wanna have a function to output butterflies.. should I call it BUTTER?
2014-04-17T17:51:13Z francogrex: I wonder what is the use of a project like that: https://github.com/andy128k/cl-gobject-introspection how does it help make people's lives better?
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2014-04-17T17:57:39Z j_king: francogrex: haven't tried it yet but I'm putting together an iPython CL kernel which might be able to take advantage of something like it. I might be able to let you know in some unspecified future.
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2014-04-17T18:34:24Z francogrex: ok I think in general I don't get the pratical use of object introspection, let alone "g" object ...
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2014-04-17T19:22:39Z jasom: does defun capture the environment if it appears as a non-toplevel form?
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2014-04-17T19:22:59Z Bike: you can defun closures, yes
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2014-04-17T19:23:21Z jasom: ah found it "processed in the lexical environment in which defun was executed"
2014-04-17T19:23:33Z oleo: the null lexical env ?
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2014-04-17T19:24:35Z nyef: oleo: Only at toplevel. Within a LET, it's no longer the null lexical environment.
2014-04-17T19:24:47Z jasom: roughly (defmacro defun (fname ll) &body b `(setf (symbol-function ,fname) `(lambda ,ll ,@b))
2014-04-17T19:24:55Z oleo: yes and defun blah == block blah
2014-04-17T19:25:10Z nyef: Right, there's a BLOCK or similar in there.
2014-04-17T19:25:11Z oleo: whereas lambda == block nil
2014-04-17T19:25:12Z jasom: oh right, gotta define a block too
2014-04-17T19:25:13Z Bike: roughly :D
2014-04-17T19:25:23Z jasom: which means parsing out the declarations and the documentation
2014-04-17T19:25:35Z nyef: Hence SBCL's NAMED-LAMBDA stuff...
2014-04-17T19:26:03Z Bike: there's also the fact "null lexical environment" and "toplevel" aren't totally synonymous
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2014-04-17T19:26:34Z jasom: right
2014-04-17T19:26:52Z nyef: True, you can do things that break toplevelity without augmenting the environment.
2014-04-17T19:27:13Z pnpuff: topleval is the global env?
2014-04-17T19:27:19Z pnpuff: toplevel, sorry
2014-04-17T19:27:23Z Bike: i actually meant the other way, like with macrolet and so on, but that too
2014-04-17T19:27:43Z nyef: So they're orthogonal.
2014-04-17T19:27:54Z jasom: (defmacro defun (fname ll) &body b) (multiple-value-bind (d real-body) (split-declaration-and-body b) `(setf (symbol-function ,fname) `(lambda ,ll ,@d (block ,fname @real-body)))
2014-04-17T19:28:05Z jasom: where split-declaration-and-body is an excercise left up to the reader
2014-04-17T19:28:13Z Bike: alexandria has a function for that, by the by
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2014-04-17T19:32:08Z jasom: ah parse-body
2014-04-17T19:32:21Z jasom: oh, alexandria is public domain
2014-04-17T19:32:51Z jasom: ah, but good it has a license for countries without public domain
2014-04-17T19:33:46Z fiveop: same as sbcl
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2014-04-17T19:34:55Z jasom: let's see if alexandria:parse-body uses any special forms, macros, or functions I haven't implemented yet
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2014-04-17T19:35:50Z Bike: jasom: well beyond that the parse-body function is simple. it's just a tagbody.
2014-04-17T19:36:25Z Bike: you could copy just that one function. or copy it out of sbcl. or something.
2014-04-17T19:36:40Z jasom: I am just copying that one function
2014-04-17T19:37:23Z jasom: Time to implement tagbody
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2014-04-17T19:37:45Z Bike: remember the dynamic extent!
2014-04-17T19:38:36Z samebchase: Reverse sentence in place: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142060#4 Feedback welcome
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2014-04-17T19:40:41Z nyef: Tagbody? Go jasom!
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2014-04-17T19:41:21Z nyef: Next thing we know, you'll be implementing the "program feature".
2014-04-17T19:42:01Z Bike: i've always wanted to write programs in CL
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2014-04-17T19:48:37Z Xach heard guy steele repeat that one at ILC 2009
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2014-04-17T20:03:15Z jasom: Bike: dynamic extent meaning (funcall (tagbody foo (lambda () (go foo))) will fail?
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2014-04-17T20:03:50Z Bike: jasom: well yes, but the part that tripped me up is (tagbody foo (bar (lambda () (go foo)))) does /not/ fail
2014-04-17T20:04:04Z Bike: if bar calls the lambda, i mean
2014-04-17T20:04:13Z jasom: that makes sense
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2014-04-17T20:04:52Z jasom: (tagbody foo (funcall (tagbody foo (lambdda () (go foo)))) I think will fail though
2014-04-17T20:05:19Z jasom: since it has lexical scope the inner foo shadows the outer in the lambda, and the go will point to an invalid tag
2014-04-17T20:05:24Z Bike: yes, that's just lexical scope.
2014-04-17T20:06:01Z Bike checks. right, tagbody returns nil
2014-04-17T20:07:18Z Bike: (tagbody foo (funcall (prog () foo (return (lambda () (go foo)))))) => The value NIL is not of type SB-C::CLEANUP. Aight.
2014-04-17T20:07:27Z jasom: yeah I got the same
2014-04-17T20:07:49Z Bike: without the outer tagbody you get the right error.
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2014-04-17T20:09:08Z Bike: still get the type error if the outer tag has a different name...
2014-04-17T20:09:35Z Bike: or just if there's no tag at all. bug maybe?
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2014-04-17T20:09:59Z jasom: clisp gives a much better error message
2014-04-17T20:10:24Z Bike: (let () (funcall (prog () foo (return (lambda () (go foo)))))) => still type error
2014-04-17T20:10:57Z jasom: The consequences are undefined if there is no matching tag lexically visible to the point of the go.
2014-04-17T20:11:05Z jasom: so it can do whatever it wants
2014-04-17T20:11:54Z Bike: still kinda ugly, especially since sbcl does have a "no such tag" error
2014-04-17T20:13:33Z jasom: so If I lexically bind each tag in the tagbody to a gensym, then I can throw the gensym.  That's probably te easiest way to manage it, since throw/catch have dynamic extent
2014-04-17T20:13:53Z jasom: and the tags are lexically established
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2014-04-17T20:32:16Z pjb: I consider the compilers are smarter than me to determine if a data is of dynamic extend or not.
2014-04-17T20:32:46Z pjb: Notably in the non trivial case where you would put such a declaration, and where you'd fail because it was a non trivial case.
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2014-04-17T20:41:05Z slyrus: luis: around?
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2014-04-17T20:42:14Z jasom: hmm is it allowed for special operators to be implemented as functions?
2014-04-17T20:43:06Z oleo: is special operator just another word for built-in macro ?
2014-04-17T20:43:15Z jasom: no
2014-04-17T20:43:26Z jasom: special operators are allowed to be neither macros nor functions
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2014-04-17T20:43:36Z jasom: they are explicitly allowed to be macros though
2014-04-17T20:43:43Z oleo: hmmm
2014-04-17T20:44:00Z Bike: jasom: i think there's an issue about it since you can do it with uh, prog1 or something
2014-04-17T20:44:47Z Bike: progn, i guess
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2014-04-17T20:47:14Z jasom: progn needs to be treated specially as a top-level though
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2014-04-17T20:48:11Z Bike: sure
2014-04-17T20:48:29Z Bike: anyway i think your special operators can be whatever you like, and fdefinition is allowed to refer anything it wants on them
2014-04-17T20:48:56Z Bike: doesn't even have to be a function, how bout that
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2014-04-17T20:52:58Z jasom: hahah (case foo ('bar ...)) "BAR is unbound"
2014-04-17T20:53:13Z jasom: of course b/c 'bar expands to (quote bar) which tries to match quote or bar
2014-04-17T20:54:08Z jasom: hmm, no that's not the case
2014-04-17T20:54:39Z Bike: It's not?
2014-04-17T20:54:48Z jasom: import org.apache.commons.httpclient.util.URIUtil;
2014-04-17T20:54:56Z jasom: (case 'bar ((quote bar) 1))
2014-04-17T20:55:09Z jasom: something is wrong with my clipboard
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2014-04-17T20:55:28Z jasom: anyway that works for whatever reason
2014-04-17T20:55:32Z Bike: it works with either (quote bar) or 'bar.
2014-04-17T20:55:48Z jasom: I'm trying to figure out why my macroexpansion is giving me unbound gensym
2014-04-17T20:56:50Z oleo: the param was not given ?
2014-04-17T20:57:19Z oleo: was it some &optional without defaults or some such ?
2014-04-17T20:58:23Z jasom: http://paste.lisp.org/+31P9
2014-04-17T20:59:21Z jasom: ah, removing the loop gave me somewhat more useful errors
2014-04-17T20:59:30Z Bike: and you get an error during macroexpansion of the case?
2014-04-17T20:59:44Z jasom: I get an error evaluating that
2014-04-17T20:59:47Z jasom: not sure quite why
2014-04-17T21:00:43Z Bike: Wait, is it actually because it's unbound? I mean you bind foo bar etc to the gensym values
2014-04-17T21:01:06Z jasom: but I don't use it unquoted
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2014-04-17T21:01:16Z jasom: at least not intentionally
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2014-04-17T21:01:37Z Bike: yeah you do? in the first line? what am i missing.
2014-04-17T21:02:16Z jasom: @#$@#$@
2014-04-17T21:02:49Z jasom: ,@(mapcar some-function-that-returns-gensyms-for-let)
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2014-04-17T21:03:15Z jasom: `',(gensym) to the rescue
2014-04-17T21:04:00Z Bike: move the extra quotes in the case to the let where they are needed :P
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2014-04-17T21:13:27Z jasom: It now works.  I give you tagbody as a macro: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142183
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2014-04-17T21:13:46Z jasom: I use a fancy loop in it, but it could be decomposed into something plainer
2014-04-17T21:14:04Z jasom: Is it possible to do an infinite loop in lisp without LOOP or GO?
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2014-04-17T21:14:54Z Bike: recur
2014-04-17T21:14:56Z jasom: maybe (dolist (x #1=(nil . #1#))
2014-04-17T21:15:37Z jasom: damn dolist has a tagbody in it
2014-04-17T21:16:01Z Bike: do you mean without using anything that expands to a tagbody, or just without an implicit tagbody
2014-04-17T21:16:21Z jasom: no expanding to a tagbody
2014-04-17T21:16:35Z Bike: yeah, then just recur probably.
2014-04-17T21:16:39Z jasom: since LOOP typically expands  to a tagbody
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2014-04-17T21:19:01Z eudoxia: is there a way to get the last char written to a string stream?
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2014-04-17T21:19:38Z jasom: eudoxia: not portably
2014-04-17T21:20:55Z eudoxia: hm
2014-04-17T21:21:28Z jasom: eudoxia: don't you know what it is, since you wrote it?
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2014-04-17T21:21:57Z eudoxia: not really
2014-04-17T21:21:58Z jasom: well you can use get-output-stream-string, but that clears the stream
2014-04-17T21:22:11Z eudoxia: i was thinking about that but i didn't know it cleared the stream
2014-04-17T21:22:20Z eudoxia: i'll come up with something
2014-04-17T21:22:26Z eudoxia: thanks anyways c:
2014-04-17T21:23:08Z jasom: I suppose you could (let ((s (get-output-stream-string stream))) (prog1 (char s (1- (length s)) (write-sequence s stream)))
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2014-04-17T21:23:22Z jasom: or something similar
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2014-04-17T21:23:52Z eudoxia: might not be the most efficient thing
2014-04-17T21:23:58Z jasom: definitely not
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2014-04-17T21:24:15Z jasom: I think many implementations let you peek at the string buffer
2014-04-17T21:24:20Z jasom: but I'm not sure
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2014-04-17T22:37:56Z afleck: hi, i'm using the cl-cairo2 package, and I've loaded it in slime, but I have to prepend (cl-cairo2: to any command I want to use. Can I make it so I don't have to put it before every command?
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2014-04-17T22:38:37Z Bicyclidine: afleck: yeah, use the package. use-package for hacking, and :use in your defpackage for code
2014-04-17T22:38:44Z Bicyclidine: clhs use-package
2014-04-17T22:38:45Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_use_pk.htm
2014-04-17T22:38:53Z Bicyclidine: gotta remember to upcase things when i mean programming instead of english
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2014-04-17T22:39:26Z afleck: thank you
2014-04-17T22:42:00Z reb`: afleck: You may want to use (in-package cl-cairo2) if you are playing around in the REPL.
2014-04-17T22:42:26Z jaimef: commonQt still the go to for gui?
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2014-04-17T22:52:28Z jasom: jaimef: I use ltk, but commonqt is the only other gui I've heard anything at all good about recently
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2014-04-17T22:52:53Z jasom: jaimef: not counting implementation specific ones
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2014-04-17T23:11:43Z jaimef: hmm bit stream returned from drakma:http-request.
2014-04-17T23:12:19Z jaimef: an array of octets rather
2014-04-17T23:15:26Z nyef: At a guess, the content-type returned by the server didn't start with "TEXT/".
2014-04-17T23:16:06Z jasom: or no known character encoding was specified in the content-type
2014-04-17T23:16:51Z nyef: That's another fun possibility, especially when it's not your lisp system that has to know the encoding, it's flexi-streams or babel or one of those.
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2014-04-17T23:39:50Z jasom: can I get slime to load a file that has warnings?
2014-04-17T23:40:03Z pjb: Files don't have warnings.
2014-04-17T23:40:13Z jasom: that compiles with warnings
2014-04-17T23:40:25Z jasom: C-c C-k
2014-04-17T23:40:25Z pjb: compile-file and load  are two different functions.
2014-04-17T23:40:33Z pjb: C- C-l
2014-04-17T23:40:36Z pjb: C-c C-l
2014-04-17T23:40:51Z jasom: ah, thanks
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2014-04-17T23:41:54Z pjb: and warnings are not errors, so you can compile and load the compiled file too.
2014-04-17T23:43:37Z nyef: That said, the better policy is to fix anything that generates an actual WARNING (as opposed to STYLE-WARNING) when compiling.
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2014-04-17T23:45:46Z pjb: of course.
2014-04-17T23:46:26Z jasom: I couldn't determine from the warning what the issue was, so I'm running it
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2014-04-18T02:24:51Z drmeister: Retrofitting garbage collection into a large C++ program is a hard problem.
2014-04-18T02:26:00Z Zhivago: Unsurprising.
2014-04-18T02:26:20Z Zhivago: Although, won't the C++ program already be structured in terms of DAGs of deallocators?
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2014-04-18T02:26:25Z drmeister: Even when you write the program with full intent of incorporating a garbage collector and avoid doing things that would make it insanely difficult - it's still a lot of trouble.
2014-04-18T02:27:00Z Zhivago: Why doesn't your lisp gc + C++ refcount scheme work?
2014-04-18T02:27:06Z drmeister: DAGs of deallocators?   Directed Acyclic Graphs?
2014-04-18T02:27:28Z drmeister: Zhivago: ref counting does work - it's just really slow.
2014-04-18T02:27:42Z drmeister: It's constantly going back to memory - memory access is slow.
2014-04-18T02:27:59Z Zhivago: Well, nothing's going to help you there.
2014-04-18T02:28:08Z Zhivago: (Except for getting rid of C++)
2014-04-18T02:28:32Z drmeister: I don't believe that is the case.  But we'll see.
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2014-04-18T04:24:47Z slyrus: so... any cffi folks around?
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2014-04-18T04:45:05Z ralphmazio: Anyone here?
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2014-04-18T04:45:44Z Bike: you bet, 'sup
2014-04-18T04:45:53Z oGMo: i am. but you probably want someone useful
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2014-04-18T04:47:39Z ralphmazio: Is The Little Schemer a good book?
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2014-04-18T04:47:54Z Bike: so i've heard
2014-04-18T04:48:23Z ralphmazio: I read the first two questions and was irritated.
2014-04-18T04:48:40Z ralphmazio: Is it true that this is an atom?
2014-04-18T04:48:40Z ralphmazio: atom
2014-04-18T04:48:54Z ralphmazio: Yes,
2014-04-18T04:48:54Z ralphmazio: because atom is a string of characters
2014-04-18T04:48:54Z ralphmazio: beginning with the letter a
2014-04-18T04:49:18Z ralphmazio: Is it true that this is an atom?
2014-04-18T04:49:18Z ralphmazio: turkey
2014-04-18T04:49:35Z ralphmazio: Yes,
2014-04-18T04:49:35Z ralphmazio: because turkey is a string of characters
2014-04-18T04:49:35Z ralphmazio: beginning with a letter.
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2014-04-18T04:49:50Z ralphmazio: Why did they even include the first question?
2014-04-18T04:49:51Z ralphmazio: lol
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2014-04-18T04:50:46Z Zhivago: To see if they could get you to flood a channel with inane drivel.
2014-04-18T04:51:55Z ralphmazio: Sorry, I didn't mean to flood the channel.  I'm sure the comment per day you get now is pretty overwhelming.
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2014-04-18T04:52:18Z oGMo: ralphmazio: this is a channel about CL, actually; i've never read said book
2014-04-18T04:52:45Z oGMo: scheme in general makes me irritated, though
2014-04-18T04:52:53Z Zhivago: Is it the parentheses?
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2014-04-18T05:00:45Z ralphmazio: Thanks OGMo.  I asked in scheme but they don't seem to respond much.  Appreciate it.  I just wanted to see if someone could tell me why they did that and if there is some kind of distinction.  Later
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2014-04-18T05:01:01Z Bike: probably a joke
2014-04-18T05:01:16Z Bike: not that programmers' jokes are generally funny
2014-04-18T05:01:47Z ralphmazio: Ahh ok.  I'm not a bright man so I was just thinking wtf and feeling confused.
2014-04-18T05:01:48Z ralphmazio: Thaks
2014-04-18T05:02:04Z oGMo: now i'm curious what the questions are
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2014-04-18T05:04:31Z oGMo: wow if i'm reading the right thing, that's pretty poor
2014-04-18T05:06:25Z oGMo: ah
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2014-04-18T05:15:19Z nydel: has anyone used this ubuntu sdk with lisp in any way?
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2014-04-18T05:23:34Z nydel: if you make a repl that accepts a list of predefined commands, how could you go about setting up an autocomplete, as were you to type "qu" then <tab> it'd automatically fill in "quit" etc
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2014-04-18T06:44:06Z joekarma: Xach, for the quicklisp blog, I think it may be helpful to have all projects in the "updated projects" list link to the cliki article of the same name - that could encourage people to fill out proper project descriptions, where none exist already - https://gist.github.com/joekarma/11027912
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2014-04-18T08:43:43Z louxiu: Hi all, I am a beginner to common lisp. I am trying to install cl-zmq on ubuntu 12.04. "debugger invoked on a SIMPLE-ERROR in thread #<THREAD "initial thread" RUNNING {1002998E93}>: Unknown Grovel syntax: CFFI-GROVEL::BITFIELD" occurs when I execute (asdf-install:install "cl-zmq.tar.gz"). I don't know why. Please help, thanks
2014-04-18T08:44:15Z easye: asdf-install is obsolete.  Can you use Quicklisp?
2014-04-18T08:44:24Z louxiu: yes
2014-04-18T08:44:37Z louxiu: But I don't know how to use it.
2014-04-18T08:44:40Z easye: Try that, if cl-zmq is in Quicklisp.
2014-04-18T08:44:47Z easye: (ql:quickload :cl-zmq)
2014-04-18T08:45:24Z H4ns: louxiu: if you need setup help for quicklisp and slime, refer to http://www.mohiji.org/2011/01/31/modern-common-lisp-on-linux/
2014-04-18T08:45:38Z louxiu: "System "cl-zmq" not found"
2014-04-18T08:46:07Z H4ns: louxiu: try (ql:system-apropos "zmq")
2014-04-18T08:46:22Z easye: Hmmm.  Then I would doanload the source to cl-zmq, link that into ASDF so that
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2014-04-18T08:46:36Z easye: (asdf:load-system :cl-zmq)
2014-04-18T08:46:46Z H4ns: cl-zmq is called :zeromq in quicklisp
2014-04-18T08:47:05Z easye: works.  And then debug from there.  ASDF-INSTALL uses five year old links to install things, so is not very current.
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2014-04-18T08:49:40Z louxiu: I tried (ql:quickload :zeromq). same problem "Unknown Grovel syntax: CFFI-GROVEL::BITFIELD"
2014-04-18T08:50:02Z H4ns: louxiu: you likely have an old cffi version somewhere on your system
2014-04-18T08:50:55Z louxiu: I used apt-get install cl-cffi. Maybe it is old.
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2014-04-18T08:51:16Z H4ns: use apt-get remove cl-cffi, then always use quicklisp
2014-04-18T08:51:30Z H4ns: don't use system packages for lisp libraries if you're intending to develop in lisp.
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2014-04-18T09:00:05Z louxiu`: I removed the system package cffi and install it via quick and it works. Thanks guys.
2014-04-18T09:01:48Z H4ns: louxiu`: you're welcome
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2014-04-18T10:03:20Z louxiu: Hi, all. I have installed cl-zmq. And when I execute Example (at the last part) of http://zeromq.org/bindings:cl . The error throws out.
2014-04-18T10:03:34Z louxiu:  error while parsing arguments to DEFMACRO ZEROMQ:WITH-CONTEXT:
2014-04-18T10:03:35Z louxiu:     invalid number of elements in
2014-04-18T10:03:35Z louxiu:       (CTX 1)
2014-04-18T10:03:35Z louxiu:     to satisfy lambda list
2014-04-18T10:03:37Z louxiu:       (ZEROMQ::CONTEXT):
2014-04-18T10:03:40Z louxiu:     exactly 1 expected, but 2 found
2014-04-18T10:03:43Z louxiu:  
2014-04-18T10:03:53Z louxiu: Sorry for paste multilines.
2014-04-18T10:05:22Z louxiu: Please help, thanks :-)
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2014-04-18T10:10:11Z oleo: arity mismatch....
2014-04-18T10:10:34Z z0d: louxiu: too many arguments
2014-04-18T10:10:40Z z0d: maybe the example is outdated
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2014-04-18T10:15:05Z oleo: ctx 1 is supposed to give you one value back, so it need an extra eval....
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2014-04-18T10:15:26Z louxiu: I tried to remove the second argument '1'. but this time, "undefined variable: ZEROMQ:PUB"
2014-04-18T10:15:28Z oleo: but when you give (ctx 1) that's 2 parameters passed there....
2014-04-18T10:15:50Z oleo: no you need `,(ctx 1) i think.....
2014-04-18T10:16:19Z oleo: err `(,(ctx 1)).....
2014-04-18T10:16:50Z oleo: i think theres just something missing....
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2014-04-18T10:19:41Z louxiu: oleo: it's not work...
2014-04-18T10:20:23Z louxiu: oleo: it doesn't work. sorry
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2014-04-18T10:31:57Z oleo: i'm building the lib wait....
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2014-04-18T11:00:38Z louxiu: oleo: thanks
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2014-04-18T11:14:29Z aerique: has something changed wrt SBCL and compiler notices when adding optimization declarations to functions?  I used to get multi-page notices on what couldn't be optimized and why but I'm getting nothing even on older sources I know I got notices on in the past
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2014-04-18T11:57:08Z xyh:  hi friends! I am implementing a new language.
2014-04-18T11:57:14Z xyh: I need to implement <symbol> and <string> data types in my language
2014-04-18T11:57:23Z xyh: how lisp implements them???
2014-04-18T11:57:29Z xyh: string interning ??? using hash table ???
2014-04-18T11:57:58Z jdz: xyh: oh, tell us more about your language!
2014-04-18T11:58:19Z jdz: xyh: from your question i see it will feauter string and symbol types
2014-04-18T11:58:24Z jdz: feature even
2014-04-18T11:58:45Z flip214: xyh: why not just reusing all the facilites of CL? ie. use some package for your symbols, just intern them into it.
2014-04-18T11:59:41Z jdz: xyh: btw, what language are you using to implement your language?
2014-04-18T12:00:11Z xyh: jdz: ok, it is a forth like language .... I use fasm to write it
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2014-04-18T12:00:43Z xyh: jdz: 2000+ lines of fasm, 600+ lines of my language
2014-04-18T12:00:45Z jdz: xyh: in Common Lisp, strings are arrays of characters, and symbols are structures, which have symbol-name as string, and other fields
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2014-04-18T12:02:11Z xyh: jdz: how gc handles the  arrays of characters and the symbol structures ??
2014-04-18T12:02:43Z pjb: Arrays of characters don't contain any reference, so gc doesn't handle it.  symbols contain references, so gc walks them.
2014-04-18T12:02:45Z jdz: xyh: GC knows how to handle arrays (of anything), and instances of structures
2014-04-18T12:03:28Z pjb: xyh: perhaps you would be interested in reading Lisp in Small Pieces   http://pagesperso-systeme.lip6.fr/Christian.Queinnec/WWW/LiSP.html  http://pagesperso-systeme.lip6.fr/Christian.Queinnec/Books/LiSP-2ndEdition-2006Dec11.tgz
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2014-04-18T12:04:44Z xyh: pjb: I have this book, and I have readed part of it. maybe I need to read more of it ...
2014-04-18T12:07:00Z xyh: so, the length of a symbol in CL is fixed ?
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2014-04-18T12:27:50Z mathrick: is there any support and/or plans for linux x32 ABI in SBCL / CCL?
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2014-04-18T12:46:39Z pjb: mathrick: yes, there is.
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2014-04-18T13:55:10Z jackdaniel: how about arm processors?
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2014-04-18T14:08:10Z Trello: hallo everyone - I'm trying to get CCL running on android; is this the right place to ask for help?
2014-04-18T14:08:22Z pjb: And on #ccl
2014-04-18T14:08:55Z Trello: probably a good shout too, thanks; I'll try there first
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2014-04-18T14:51:50Z Malice: Hey, I'm using SBCL. I have a question. I'm learning recursion now, but I'm limited by stack size. Is there any way(or other compiler), so that I can use recursion almost infinitely?
2014-04-18T14:52:00Z stassats: no
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2014-04-18T14:52:38Z nyef: Yes: Limit yourself to tail-recursion.
2014-04-18T14:52:55Z nyef: Otherwise, no.
2014-04-18T14:53:18Z stassats: tail recursion is the most useless recursion, since you can always iterate, but when you really need recursion, you do need it
2014-04-18T14:53:39Z stassats: you can always use heap for the stack
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2014-04-18T14:53:51Z nyef: I guess you could do something with a system that heap-allocates stack frames and has an infinitely large heap, but heap-allocated frames are rarely used for performance reasons, and the infinitely large heap thing is infinitely unlikely.
2014-04-18T14:53:54Z Malice: What's the difference between recursion and tail-recursion?
2014-04-18T14:54:09Z stassats: tail-recursion is the recursion that doesn't come back
2014-04-18T14:54:11Z nyef: "recursion, n: See recursion. Also see tail recursion."
2014-04-18T14:59:31Z fiveop: Roughly speaking, when the call is the last thing that happens when a function is executed (and its value is returned, if any), the call is in tail position. If you have a recursive function and all your recursive calls are in tail position, you have a tail recursive function.
2014-04-18T15:00:26Z Malice: Okay.
2014-04-18T15:00:31Z Malice: I'll provide source code in a second
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2014-04-18T15:01:39Z Malice: Okay, no need. I did a typo.
2014-04-18T15:01:56Z Malice: So I believe tail recursion is harder to find out than simple recursion.
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2014-04-18T15:02:21Z fiveop: find out?
2014-04-18T15:02:29Z stassats: it's a subset of recursions
2014-04-18T15:02:48Z Malice: I mean, to come up with proper way to do it.
2014-04-18T15:02:59Z Malice: It looks to me that non-tail recursion is easier and more natural then tail-recursion
2014-04-18T15:03:24Z stassats: not really, they are about the same
2014-04-18T15:03:37Z Malice: Maybe it's my inexperience
2014-04-18T15:03:52Z Malice: btw. how can I break from function in SBCL?
2014-04-18T15:03:53Z stassats: but, using a loop is more natural and easy than using tail recursion most of the time
2014-04-18T15:04:06Z stassats: C-c C-c should do
2014-04-18T15:04:08Z Malice: I called tail-recursive function with big argument, and it will take a while
2014-04-18T15:04:37Z Malice: hmm
2014-04-18T15:04:48Z Malice: I believe I have to restart REPL, C-c C-c doesn't work
2014-04-18T15:05:07Z stassats: try it several times
2014-04-18T15:05:53Z Malice: nothing
2014-04-18T15:05:56Z Malice: Well, doesn't matter.
2014-04-18T15:06:03Z Malice: Anyway- thanks for clarification!
2014-04-18T15:06:04Z stassats: it may be dead
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2014-04-18T15:30:41Z knob: Hello everyone... I have some n00b questions.   I am planning on starting my lisp-learning by following along with the Gigamonkeys book.
2014-04-18T15:30:56Z knob: I am running on a FreeBSD10.0 machine.  I installed emacs, and clisp
2014-04-18T15:31:01Z knob: clisp works fine... and so does emacs
2014-04-18T15:31:04Z pjb: so far so good.
2014-04-18T15:31:14Z knob: I am kind of at a loss as to what I need for the gigamonkeys book
2014-04-18T15:31:17Z pjb: You may also want to use quicklisp and slime.
2014-04-18T15:31:20Z knob: Hey pjb thanks
2014-04-18T15:31:23Z pjb: Nothing more.
2014-04-18T15:31:31Z knob: Ok... quicklisp...      question there.
2014-04-18T15:31:37Z knob: I have slime installed, and working on emacs
2014-04-18T15:31:47Z knob: I can do M-x slime    and it starts slime awesome
2014-04-18T15:31:53Z pjb: Good. So you're all set for gigamonkeys, it was written before quicklisp anyways.
2014-04-18T15:32:01Z knob: quicklisp itself...
2014-04-18T15:32:03Z knob: ohhhh... ok
2014-04-18T15:32:16Z knob: So... ok ok... going to try something quickly... brb
2014-04-18T15:32:17Z pjb: quicklisp is useful to get libraries and their dependencies.
2014-04-18T15:32:23Z pjb: http://beta.quicklisp.org/
2014-04-18T15:33:14Z fiveop: Which you shouldn't need to follow pcl.
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2014-04-18T15:35:59Z knob: Ok... emacs working awesome
2014-04-18T15:36:21Z knob: One question:   In the .emacs file, I added the lines for the slime setup  (I think my terminology is off...)
2014-04-18T15:36:24Z knob: Here is what I have:::
2014-04-18T15:36:41Z knob: (setq inferior-lisp-program "/usr/local/bin/clisp")
2014-04-18T15:37:11Z knob: So, I figure I am using clisp... will I have any difference doing the book with clisp, versus quicklisp?
2014-04-18T15:37:17Z knob: Or am I just talking nonsense?
2014-04-18T15:37:26Z pjb: nonsense
2014-04-18T15:37:34Z pjb: quicklisp is a CL library. clisp is a CL implementation.
2014-04-18T15:37:51Z knob: Ohhh... man, that clears that up.
2014-04-18T15:37:54Z knob: Cool cool!
2014-04-18T15:37:57Z Xach: layers upon layers
2014-04-18T15:38:08Z knob: Xach, tell  me about it!
2014-04-18T15:38:13Z knob: Ok, and I think my last (for now) n00b question:
2014-04-18T15:38:39Z knob: In emacs I have the CLUSER>  prompt.   I can do the functions, parameters, etc there.     It immediately evaluates
2014-04-18T15:38:56Z knob: How do you suggest I save all this work, so I can shutdown the computer... and later come back, and *load* my previous work?
2014-04-18T15:39:12Z Xach: knob: usually you open a file with a .lisp extension, write definitions in there, and send them to lisp with C-c C-c (or similar keystrokes)
2014-04-18T15:39:18Z knob: I have done C-x C-s, and I get a nice text file output... yet it has all the prompts ("CLUSER>") within
2014-04-18T15:39:25Z Xach: then when you want to test them or call them you switch to the REPL to type stuff in.
2014-04-18T15:39:36Z stassats: are you sure it's CLUSER and not CL-USER?
2014-04-18T15:39:44Z pjb: knob: most often, you don't work in *slime-repl*, but in your source.lisp file.
2014-04-18T15:39:48Z knob: Xach, ok ok... and to switch to the REPL... C-x b   ?
2014-04-18T15:39:55Z pjb: Not needed.
2014-04-18T15:40:07Z pjb: Just C-x C-e or C-u C-x C-e in the source buffer.
2014-04-18T15:40:08Z stassats: knob: C-c C-z
2014-04-18T15:40:11Z knob: stassats, CL-USER> ... you're right
2014-04-18T15:40:25Z Xach: knob: That's one way to do it, sure.
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2014-04-18T15:40:43Z Xach: I use the Slime Selector to do it faster, but it requires a little more setup.
2014-04-18T15:40:44Z stassats: C-c C-y has more magic
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2014-04-18T15:41:14Z knob: Ok... writing this down in my notebook....
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2014-04-18T15:44:34Z knob: Aight... some more n00b questions:  My emacs screen is now divided in half... top half, and bottom half has the slime buffer with the CL-USER> prompt
2014-04-18T15:45:14Z knob: My basic question is how to go about this.   Should I open a test.lisp file on the upper buffer?
2014-04-18T15:45:24Z stassats: whatever you like
2014-04-18T15:45:27Z pjb: As you wish.
2014-04-18T15:45:27Z knob: And then... how do I tell it to evaluate it?
2014-04-18T15:45:30Z jasom: knob: yes
2014-04-18T15:45:38Z pjb: C-x 1 C-x 2 C-x 3 C-x o C-x 0
2014-04-18T15:45:40Z stassats: C-c C-l and C-c C-k
2014-04-18T15:45:50Z pjb: C-x 5 2   C-x 5 o   C-x 5 0
2014-04-18T15:46:07Z jasom: C-c C-c compiles just the current defun you are on, C-c C-k compiles and loads the entire .lisp file
2014-04-18T15:46:09Z knob: And, basic question... emacs knows to evaluate that over in the slime buffer?
2014-04-18T15:46:30Z Xach: knob: slime teaches emacs how to send code to the lisp process
2014-04-18T15:46:38Z pjb: No, slimes evaluates each expression in a separate thread.
2014-04-18T15:46:46Z pjb: It doesn't use the thread of the slime repl.
2014-04-18T15:47:11Z jasom: knob: it knows to evaluate it in the lisp you have running, it's not *quite* identical to entering it in the slime-repl buffer though
2014-04-18T15:47:37Z knob: Ok ok... going to try this now
2014-04-18T15:47:40Z knob: :)   brb
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2014-04-18T15:53:53Z knob: Wow... I think I got it working!!
2014-04-18T15:54:05Z knob: Going to play with it a little more... brb :D
2014-04-18T15:57:48Z knob: be back in a short while guys... need to find electricity for the laptop.    Thank you VERY much!!!  I am super pumped!!!! :D
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2014-04-18T16:12:23Z Xach: https://github.com/sdroadie/terrible_code is intriguing
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2014-04-18T16:13:59Z stassats: .cl extensions is pretty terrible already
2014-04-18T16:14:06Z H4ns: a starbucks barista learning common lisp, nice
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2014-04-18T16:14:40Z easye: In ASDF, is the :depends-on clause an ordered list of systems to load?  i.e. can I count on :depends-on (a b)  loading system a before b (as long as they don't define dependencies)?
2014-04-18T16:14:44Z Xach: I appreciate it setting an expectation level
2014-04-18T16:14:51Z stassats: easye: you can't
2014-04-18T16:14:58Z easye: stassats: THanks.
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2014-04-18T16:15:28Z stassats: think about it, A may depend on B
2014-04-18T16:15:49Z easye: Yes, but if I *know* A doesn't depend on B is my case.
2014-04-18T16:15:51Z stassats: but even if ASDF did something in some order, it will surely change in the next version
2014-04-18T16:16:04Z oGMo: easye: are you the author of A and B? why not make B depend on A?
2014-04-18T16:16:13Z stassats: easye: then you shouldn't care
2014-04-18T16:16:21Z easye: I've got a problem with CXML-STP defining the SHARPSIGN-DOUBLE-QUOTE macro, which is used pretty heavily with JSS systems in ABCL.
2014-04-18T16:16:38Z slyrus: stassats: can I pick your brain about some cffi stuff?
2014-04-18T16:16:52Z stassats: slyrus: you can try
2014-04-18T16:16:53Z easye: I am the author of neither A or B.
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2014-04-18T16:16:59Z oGMo: easye: alternatively, you can make my-depending-system-1 and my-depending-system-2 which depend on A and B respectively, and make 2 depend on 1
2014-04-18T16:17:12Z oGMo: then make your "real" system depend on those
2014-04-18T16:17:20Z stassats: easye: slap some named-readtables onto cxml-stp, submit a patch
2014-04-18T16:17:21Z easye: But thanks, the confirmation that the order in the depends-on clause is what I need to figure out another way of doing things.
2014-04-18T16:17:26Z stassats: (and wait a year for it to get applied)
2014-04-18T16:17:27Z oGMo: but, really, you're surely doing something wrong if this matters
2014-04-18T16:17:36Z easye: stassats: Yes,  and JSS should use them as well.
2014-04-18T16:18:02Z easye: But I am in a bit of a hurry right now to get something in production, so time is in short supply right now.
2014-04-18T16:18:03Z Xach: oGMo: FSVO "you"
2014-04-18T16:18:11Z oGMo: Xach: ah true, read the above
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2014-04-18T16:18:41Z beach: Good evening everyone!
2014-04-18T16:18:43Z oGMo: in that case, i probably would define a depending system and make something that fixes the reader
2014-04-18T16:18:56Z oGMo: or what stassats said, but
2014-04-18T16:19:39Z slyrus: stassats: I don't understand how the results from call are still valid when we call translate-from-foreign
2014-04-18T16:20:10Z nyef: Hello beach.
2014-04-18T16:20:47Z stassats: slyrus: what will make them invalid?
2014-04-18T16:21:09Z jasom: hmm, is there a style anyone uses for a macro that you will only call once?
2014-04-18T16:21:32Z stassats: there's no C code running anymore, since it has returned, unless you there are threads or signals
2014-04-18T16:21:39Z Xach: jasom: i sometimes use macrolet for that.
2014-04-18T16:21:40Z stassats: jasom: macrolet
2014-04-18T16:22:17Z jasom: I suppose that works, so long as it doesn't need to generate top-level forms
2014-04-18T16:22:29Z stassats: macrolet is top-level, isn't it?
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2014-04-18T16:22:37Z slyrus: stassats: hmm... I thought make-local-alien would allocate on the stack, but maybe that's not the case
2014-04-18T16:22:48Z Xach: stassats: it is
2014-04-18T16:22:51Z jasom: stassats: you're right
2014-04-18T16:22:54Z jasom didn't know that
2014-04-18T16:22:57Z jasom: macrolet it is
2014-04-18T16:23:35Z Bike: 's one of the things i meant yesterday in saying toplevel doesn't mean null environment
2014-04-18T16:24:12Z slyrus: stassats: so, I thought we were allocating a local alien on the stack, and then it was going out of scope before calling translate-from-foreign
2014-04-18T16:24:17Z slyrus: but I must be mistaken
2014-04-18T16:24:55Z stassats: allocating a local alien when doing what?
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2014-04-18T16:26:53Z stassats: i would think that if you pass stack allocated values into your C function, you are expected to deal with its extent yourself
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2014-04-18T16:27:30Z slyrus: calling foreign-funcall
2014-04-18T16:27:42Z slyrus: and having the foreign function return a struct
2014-04-18T16:27:55Z slyrus: I'm trying to get fsbv working on ABCL
2014-04-18T16:28:42Z stassats: i don't really know how returning structs by value works
2014-04-18T16:28:59Z jasom: In C?
2014-04-18T16:29:07Z stassats: in CFFI
2014-04-18T16:29:19Z jasom: oh, I don't know either.
2014-04-18T16:30:06Z stassats: LiamH or luis might now
2014-04-18T16:30:15Z slyrus: ok, thanks
2014-04-18T16:30:51Z slyrus: here's the macro-expansion: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142208
2014-04-18T16:31:54Z slyrus: it looks to me like we're returing the ALIEN-SAP of a stack allocated alien which should then be out scope, but that can't be so
2014-04-18T16:32:00Z slyrus: because things work :)
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2014-04-18T16:39:21Z stassats: slyrus: probably libffi just copies it onto the heap
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2014-04-18T16:46:09Z beach: pjb: Around?
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2014-04-18T16:47:15Z beach: pjb: Before, you answered "yes" to the question by mathrick about plans/support for Linux x32 ABI in SBCL / CCL.  What where you referring to then?
2014-04-18T16:47:43Z stassats: there are no plans in SBCL
2014-04-18T16:47:49Z stassats: unless they are secret
2014-04-18T16:48:04Z beach: Heh!
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2014-04-18T16:48:07Z pjb: beach: it already runs on linux i86 32-bit.
2014-04-18T16:48:31Z stassats: x32 is for x86-64
2014-04-18T16:48:58Z nyef: ... The half-wit^Hdth address space thing?
2014-04-18T16:49:06Z pjb: A new 32-bit mode!
2014-04-18T16:49:07Z beach: I guess I don't know what "support for Linux x32 ABI" means.
2014-04-18T16:49:24Z pjb: When will we be able to get rid of Intel chips?
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2014-04-18T16:49:33Z Xach: beach: that didn't stop pjb from answering with confidence!
2014-04-18T16:49:33Z nyef: Hrm. There are some interesting possibilities there...
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2014-04-18T16:49:55Z beach: Xach: ... which is why I am asking him what he is referring to.
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2014-04-18T16:50:40Z stassats: isn't sbcl for alpha 32-bit?
2014-04-18T16:51:01Z stassats: and goes through some hoops
2014-04-18T16:51:24Z beach: mathrick: Can you elaborate a bit what you meant by the question about Linux x32 ABI?
2014-04-18T16:51:28Z stassats: 32-bit address space, that is
2014-04-18T16:52:09Z nyef: stassats: Sortof, it arranges for the heap to be in the low-32, but the stacks and alien code not.
2014-04-18T16:53:34Z nyef: Means that we can't stack-allocate anything, really, and has touchpoints all over the place to maintain it.
2014-04-18T16:54:09Z stassats: that's why Alpha declined, no good SBCL port
2014-04-18T16:54:58Z stassats: SBCL, hurting the hardware industry since 1999
2014-04-18T16:56:04Z jasom: x32 is just x86_64 with 32-bit pointers, right?
2014-04-18T16:56:17Z stassats: right
2014-04-18T16:56:40Z jasom: IIRC it helps greatly on the few x86_64 machines with tiny caches
2014-04-18T16:57:05Z jasom: particularly for languages that box everything
2014-04-18T16:58:10Z pjb: It's useless.  The time of everybody would be better spent writing robots and AI software.
2014-04-18T16:58:39Z stassats: but would fixnums be 64-bit or not?
2014-04-18T16:59:20Z jasom: stassats: if pointers are 32-bit, then wouldn't fixnums be required to be as well for the way tagging works in sbcl?
2014-04-18T16:59:20Z stassats: that would defeat the purpose, i guess
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2014-04-18T17:00:17Z jasom: ah, you could use 32-bit fixnums with the convention that if any of the top-32 bits are non-zero it's a fixnum, if any of the bottom 32-bits are non-zero it's a pointer :)
2014-04-18T17:00:25Z stassats: not due to tagging, but due to space used for strong fixnums and pointers to other objects would be different
2014-04-18T17:00:28Z beach: mathrick: Never mind.  I found the answer to my question.
2014-04-18T17:00:43Z stassats: s/strong/storing/
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2014-04-18T17:01:17Z stassats: and no immediate single-floats either, so, more boxing again
2014-04-18T17:02:40Z jasom: people still use single-floats?
2014-04-18T17:02:54Z pjb: Those who want fast wrong answers.
2014-04-18T17:02:54Z stassats: they surely do
2014-04-18T17:03:09Z pjb: Sometimes single-float give more correct results than double-float however.
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2014-04-18T17:04:59Z jasom: I suppose single floats are fine so long as you never need to add or subtract
2014-04-18T17:05:35Z jasom: enough precision for most calculations, so long as none is thrown away accidentally
2014-04-18T17:06:09Z mathrick: beach: yeah, I meant just the ILP32-on-x64 ABI linux has grown, which results in smaller memory footprint without losing the benefits of x64 as an arch (which SBCL at least relies heavily on to make x64 a much better target)
2014-04-18T17:07:06Z stassats: well, X32 defeats some of those benefits
2014-04-18T17:07:14Z mathrick: stassats: does it?
2014-04-18T17:07:21Z mathrick: oh, pointer tag bits?
2014-04-18T17:07:47Z jasom: TIL (setf (apply #'aref foo subscripts) 3) is allowed
2014-04-18T17:07:55Z stassats: 30-bit fixnums, etc.
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2014-04-18T17:09:02Z stassats: in C it's easier, since you can have whatever integers you want, since everything is static, not tagging
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2014-04-18T17:09:20Z mathrick: yeah
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2014-04-18T17:10:00Z nyef: ... You know that there's a design approach that would allow 31-bit fixnums on 32-bit ports, right?
2014-04-18T17:10:00Z stassats: and maybe in languges where a CONS can only hold objects of one type, or be immutable
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2014-04-18T17:10:58Z mathrick: nyef: is that "fixnum or anything else" tag bit, with essentially an extra layer of indirection for the "everything else" case?
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2014-04-18T17:11:27Z stassats: nyef: without removing the currently occupied lowtags?
2014-04-18T17:11:44Z nyef: We have to double-up instance-pointer with something, IIRC.
2014-04-18T17:11:59Z stassats: other-pointer?
2014-04-18T17:12:12Z nyef: Umm... And the allocation granularity becomes quadword, not doubleword.
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2014-04-18T17:14:50Z mathrick: nyef: what does "double-up" mean?
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2014-04-18T17:15:21Z pjb: same as double, but increasing instead of decreasing.
2014-04-18T17:15:53Z mathrick: ...what?
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2014-04-18T17:16:37Z nyef: The basic plan is to double the allocation granularity from two words to four, gaining us an extra lowtag bit. We have to move from two other-immediate tags to four, because there's too many other-immediate values for anything else.
2014-04-18T17:17:09Z nyef: We also move to eight fixnum tag bits, just like on x86-64.
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2014-04-18T17:17:40Z nyef: We've got, what, four values left?
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2014-04-18T17:18:01Z nyef: Maybe we don't lose anything in terms of tags after all...
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2014-04-18T17:19:55Z mathrick: nyef: wait, doesn't 8 tag bits on fixnums go against the goal of having 31-bit fixnums?
2014-04-18T17:20:18Z nyef: No, 8 tag values out of a 4-bit tag space.
2014-04-18T17:20:30Z nyef: That's fully half the space, or 1 bit worth of information.
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2014-04-18T17:21:17Z mathrick: can't say I get the math behind 1 bit being 8 values or half of 4 bits :)
2014-04-18T17:21:25Z nyef: Oh, right. We have to double-up on tags if we want to allow CONSes to have double-word granular allocation when done by the GC.
2014-04-18T17:21:51Z nyef: 4 bits is 16 values. Half of that is 8 values. It's also HALF, which is 1 bit of data.
2014-04-18T17:22:01Z mathrick: ah
2014-04-18T17:22:52Z JuanDaugherty: lol
2014-04-18T17:23:35Z stassats: only the first bit of a fixnum is checked, if it's 0, then it's a fixnum, but tags are 4-bit wide, so, fixnums take up all the tags with 0 as a first bit
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2014-04-18T17:24:51Z nyef: Same as it is on x86-64.
2014-04-18T17:25:10Z nyef: Other-immediate is a two-bit-wide tag on all platforms, for example.
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2014-04-18T17:25:42Z stassats: (first as in LSB and only for (= sb-vm:n-fixnum-tag-bits 1), but the it's the same for other cases)
2014-04-18T17:26:22Z nyef: For a lark, someone might want to see if SBCL still builds for 2 and 3 fixnum tag bits on x86-64. (-:
2014-04-18T17:28:37Z stassats: can the freed up lowtags be used for something else?
2014-04-18T17:28:51Z nyef: What would you use them for?
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2014-04-18T17:28:58Z stassats: maybe for tagging double-floats? though it would still be double-word allocated, but less indirection
2014-04-18T17:29:34Z stassats: fixnum/fixnum ratios!
2014-04-18T17:29:44Z nyef: Yeah, you can get cheaper type tests for a small number of types.
2014-04-18T17:30:03Z nyef: I don't really consider it worth the bothering at this point.
2014-04-18T17:30:38Z stassats: too bad increasing the number of types increases the amount of indirection needed to work with them
2014-04-18T17:32:22Z stassats: though, ordinary ratios are currently header+numerator+denominator+padding, with a low-tag 16 bytes can be saved
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2014-04-18T17:35:12Z nyef: Hrm. With them appearing as CONSes to ROOM?
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2014-04-18T17:35:28Z nyef: Or to mapping the heap generally?
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2014-04-18T17:36:53Z stassats: right, basically conses with a different lowtag
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2014-04-18T17:41:42Z nyef: I'm not sure that I'm entirely a fan, but it's a workable idea.
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2014-04-18T17:43:51Z jasom: Is there a list of all the functions, special-operators, and macros defined in the standard somewhere?
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2014-04-18T17:44:21Z jasom: the hyperspec as the symbol index
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2014-04-18T17:45:32Z jasom: but that includes things like types and constants and variables
2014-04-18T17:45:50Z Bike: (loop for s being the external-symbols of :cl when (fboundp s) collect s) for a shiv
2014-04-18T17:46:21Z jasom: that could work
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2014-04-18T17:46:42Z Bike: fboundp will be T for macros and special operators, but there's no structure to the results ofc
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2014-04-18T17:48:09Z Bike: i don't see any organized lists in either the intro section or the standard packages section of the clhs.
2014-04-18T17:48:44Z jasom: your thing will work great though
2014-04-18T17:48:46Z jasom: thanks
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2014-04-18T17:55:49Z mathrick: sadly all the environment introspection functions of CLtL2 were removed
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2014-04-18T17:56:22Z stassats: what do you need them for? there's still macro-function, special-operator-p
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2014-04-18T17:56:28Z mathrick: jasom: if you want to rely on unportable things, you can use sb-cltl2
2014-04-18T17:56:45Z Bike: jasom does not need cltl2 to get a list of standard operators
2014-04-18T17:56:48Z mathrick: stassats: because it gives much more info to build a nice index out of
2014-04-18T17:57:05Z stassats: it does not, not for what jasom asked
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2014-04-18T17:57:09Z mathrick: but yeah, just for macros and operators it's not strictly needed
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2014-04-18T18:04:28Z slyrus: LiamH: around?
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2014-04-18T18:24:17Z jasom: The semantics of special declarations are just wonderful
2014-04-18T18:25:12Z nyef: Aren't they?
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2014-04-18T18:25:33Z nyef: There are other wonderful things in CL as well.
2014-04-18T18:26:26Z oleo: morning
2014-04-18T18:26:31Z nyef: The set of specialized arrays allowed to be strings, the behavior of D-X around &REST lists...
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2014-04-18T18:27:00Z stassats: prog2, don't forget prog2!
2014-04-18T18:27:13Z oleo: zmq fails here too....
2014-04-18T18:27:19Z oleo: the examples....
2014-04-18T18:27:52Z nyef: ... And, yes, I had forgotten about the definition of PROG2.
2014-04-18T18:28:54Z jasom: d-x I don't care about since i can ignore it as an implementer
2014-04-18T18:29:24Z nyef: There is possibly a hole in the definition of the package system around the use of the KEYWORD package, there's a line of argument that requires all symbols to be constants with themselves as the value...
2014-04-18T18:30:13Z nyef: And when it comes to pathnames, all we can say is "yeah, good luck with that."
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2014-04-18T18:30:47Z mathrick: nyef: care to elaborate, re: KEYWORD?
2014-04-18T18:31:38Z nyef: It might be possible to get a symbol into the keyword package that isn't homed there and/or isn't a constant with itself as the value.
2014-04-18T18:31:57Z nyef: At least some implementations have been known to allow it.
2014-04-18T18:32:19Z mathrick: ah
2014-04-18T18:32:57Z mathrick: not sure how you'd get a symbol in a package without it being homed there
2014-04-18T18:33:37Z oleo: :keywords are one example.....
2014-04-18T18:33:38Z mathrick: other than imports I guess
2014-04-18T18:33:44Z nyef: Exactly!
2014-04-18T18:33:58Z oleo: then there are gensyms......
2014-04-18T18:34:00Z nyef: (defpackage foo (:use :cl) (:export "+"))
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2014-04-18T18:34:20Z mathrick: oleo: no, :foo is a fully qualified symbol name. It's just that no package name before the colon is defined to be a shorthand for the KEYWORD package
2014-04-18T18:34:30Z jasom: well, 7/978 symbols fully implemented, another 40 partially implemented (I don't have setf yet, so the ones that are function and accessors aren't completely done)
2014-04-18T18:34:45Z nyef: For more fun, if you remove a symbol from its home package, its symbol-package slot gets cleared. Do that with a symbol that you've finagled into KEYWORD?
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2014-04-18T18:35:38Z mathrick: "prog2 evaluates first-form, then second-form, and then forms, yielding as its only value the primary value yielded by first-form." <-- that's an error in the spec right here
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2014-04-18T18:36:17Z oleo: by second-form. should have been
2014-04-18T18:36:27Z oleo: prog1 gives first-form....
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2014-04-18T18:37:29Z jasom: Plus they don't define a prog3; how can I write software without prog3?
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2014-04-18T18:37:58Z oleo: cdr down....
2014-04-18T18:38:40Z oleo: or something similar....
2014-04-18T18:39:07Z ggole: Is there more to it than (defmacro prog2 (one two &rest others) `(progn ,one (prog1 ,two ,@others)))? Or is the WTF that somebody felt it was important to define that in the standard?
2014-04-18T18:39:28Z jasom: (prog2 form1 form*) ==  (let () form1 (prog1 form*))
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2014-04-18T18:39:49Z jasom: that's taken directly from the standard
2014-04-18T18:40:30Z Bike: ggole: no, that works, the wtf is that they typoed such that prog2 is technically defined to do the same as prog1.
2014-04-18T18:40:41Z Bike: oh, right, toplevelness also
2014-04-18T18:41:42Z jasom: Bike: prog1 and prog2 don't propogate toplevelness
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2014-04-18T18:41:50Z Bike: right right
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2014-04-18T18:43:06Z ggole: Funny language, CL.
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2014-04-18T18:44:27Z mathrick: jasom: huh, why did they use (let () ...) rather than PROGN, other than PROGN being definable in terms of LET
2014-04-18T18:44:42Z mathrick: ooh
2014-04-18T18:44:45Z mathrick: toplevelness
2014-04-18T18:44:47Z jasom: mathrick: because then form1 would be toplevel
2014-04-18T18:44:47Z mathrick: I see
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2014-04-18T18:46:27Z mathrick: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/s_mult_1.htm <-- but where's MULTIPLE-VALUE-PROG2?
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2014-04-18T18:47:23Z Bike: alexandria, duh
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2014-04-18T18:58:58Z stassats: the same place as prog3
2014-04-18T18:59:42Z nyef: Down this line of argument lies a version of progn which takes a parameter indicating which following form should be returned as the value.
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2014-04-18T19:00:00Z nyef: For more fun, said parameter is permitted to be a variable.
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2014-04-18T19:00:10Z nyef: (That is, evaluated.)
2014-04-18T19:00:36Z jasom: prognth
2014-04-18T19:00:48Z stassats: and where's my (twenty-fifth list)?
2014-04-18T19:00:49Z Bike: i'm pretty sure i've seen that somewhere
2014-04-18T19:01:10Z jasom: cadadadadadadaddddadadadadr
2014-04-18T19:01:11Z Bike: stassats: method-missing + inflector -> gold
2014-04-18T19:01:36Z ggole: Shades of php
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2014-04-18T19:02:19Z ggole: (In php, break takes an argument indicating the number of levels to break out of. Using a calculated value used to work.)
2014-04-18T19:03:23Z jasom: ggole: POSIX sh allows that
2014-04-18T19:03:35Z jasom: http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/009695399/utilities/break.html
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2014-04-18T19:04:07Z ggole: break random() % 10;
2014-04-18T19:04:34Z ggole: A microcosm of php in more than one way.
2014-04-18T19:05:11Z jasom: well prognth is implementable as a macro
2014-04-18T19:05:33Z ggole: Sure, just keep a counter
2014-04-18T19:05:44Z stassats: the possibilities to obfuscate CL code are limitless
2014-04-18T19:06:00Z ggole: Not sure about toplevelness though
2014-04-18T19:06:21Z ggole: Does tagbody keep toplevelness?
2014-04-18T19:06:31Z stassats: prog1/2 doesn't have toplevelness
2014-04-18T19:06:40Z ggole: No worries then.
2014-04-18T19:06:55Z ggole: ...unless you want that specified as an argument also.
2014-04-18T19:09:51Z oleo: when is tail recursion in sbcl guarenteed ?
2014-04-18T19:09:55Z oleo: at what policy ?
2014-04-18T19:10:11Z mathrick: it
2014-04-18T19:10:15Z mathrick: 's never guaranteed
2014-04-18T19:10:24Z mathrick: it's merely enabled
2014-04-18T19:10:31Z jasom: The compiler is “properly tail recursive.” If a function call is in a tail-recursive position, the stack frame will be deallocated at the time of the call, rather than after the call returns. Consider this backtrace:
2014-04-18T19:10:54Z oleo: so i don't have to dabble with compiler policy at all for that ?
2014-04-18T19:11:02Z jasom: The elimination of tail-recursive frames can be prevented by disabling tail-recursion optimization, which happens when the debug optimization quality is greater than 2. See Debugger Policy Control.
2014-04-18T19:11:16Z stassats: you have not to dabble with the debug policy
2014-04-18T19:11:35Z jasom: oleo: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/ <-- search for "tail recursion" that's how I found those quotes
2014-04-18T19:11:36Z oleo: ok
2014-04-18T19:11:39Z nyef: Actually, IIRC there being some problem with disabling tail-call optimization... It might be that they just changed the default or something.
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2014-04-18T19:12:10Z jasom assumes that dynamic bindings cause a call to be not in the tail-recursive position
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2014-04-18T19:13:10Z jasom: e.g. (let ((*foo*)) (bar)) <-- bar is not in tail-call position, I'm guessing
2014-04-18T19:13:28Z sbcl|Krystof: correct
2014-04-18T19:13:39Z sbcl|Krystof: (excuse stupid nick, I'm in a ginormous meeting)
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2014-04-18T19:14:00Z jasom: stupid nick + smart answers is better than smart nick + stupid answers
2014-04-18T19:14:09Z stassats: sb-c::insert-debug-catch effectively disables TC by wrapping the body in some special code
2014-04-18T19:14:23Z stassats: and it's enabled by debug 2
2014-04-18T19:14:47Z stassats: but (declare (optimize (debug 3) (sb-c::insert-debug-catch 0))) will still get you TCO
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2014-04-18T19:15:30Z stassats: i have an idea how to make sb-c::insert-debug-catch not to require unwrapping things, but i'm lazy
2014-04-18T19:15:38Z oleo: well if foo calls bar indirectly.....and there's tail call optimization dunno what then happens....
2014-04-18T19:15:57Z oleo: what does happen to the intermediary call ?
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2014-04-18T19:16:46Z sbcl|Krystof: it gets eaten
2014-04-18T19:16:48Z sbcl|Krystof: by a grue
2014-04-18T19:16:55Z oleo: oO
2014-04-18T19:17:01Z jasom: It should have lit the lantern
2014-04-18T19:18:03Z oleo: and the code still works as inended ? or what do you mean by gets eaten ?
2014-04-18T19:18:12Z oleo: intended*
2014-04-18T19:18:19Z jasom: The grue is a sinister, lurking presence in the dark places of the earth. Its favorite diet is adventurers, but its insatiable appetite is tempered by its fear of light. No grue has ever been seen by the light of day, and few have survived its fearsome jaws to tell the tale.
2014-04-18T19:18:21Z stassats: it depends on what you are asking
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2014-04-18T19:19:18Z ggole: The same thing happens to the intervening call as happens to every call: it expires
2014-04-18T19:19:18Z oleo: does the compiler see ah that one is calling bar in the end anyway and do a jump there ?
2014-04-18T19:19:52Z stassats: what are you trying to figure out?
2014-04-18T19:19:56Z oleo: without ever considering what the intermediary did ? so does that mean i could lose side effects when the intermediary was supposed todo some ?
2014-04-18T19:20:21Z ggole: The stack does not record what the intermediary did.
2014-04-18T19:20:26Z oleo: aha ok
2014-04-18T19:20:44Z ggole: Stacks are not historical records. They are the future of execution, not the past.
2014-04-18T19:21:29Z jasom: ggole: I love that quote, I will steal it and use it in the future
2014-04-18T19:21:49Z stassats: jasom: will you push it onto the stack of quotes?
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2014-04-18T19:21:57Z jasom: stassats: indeed!
2014-04-18T19:22:18Z ggole: Stole it myself... can't remember where from though
2014-04-18T19:23:31Z jasom: And then there's chicken-scheme which uses the stack only as the heap nursery
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2014-04-18T19:30:04Z mathrick: how does it keep track of the execution context then?
2014-04-18T19:30:14Z mathrick: (without it being horribly inefficient that is)
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2014-04-18T19:32:11Z ggole: It calls a continuation
2014-04-18T19:32:12Z jasom: mathrick: all functions are transformed into tail-calls into continuations
2014-04-18T19:32:24Z ggole: The continuation takes the part of the return address
2014-04-18T19:32:39Z jasom: so you never return, just chain a series of tail-calls
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2014-04-18T19:32:48Z jasom: and the continuation is implicitly passed in to any function call
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2014-04-18T19:33:05Z ggole: This implies that the stack keeps growing and eventually runs out of space: at which point everything reachable is copied off the stack and then you start again
2014-04-18T19:35:35Z mathrick: interesting
2014-04-18T19:35:53Z oGMo: that is interesting
2014-04-18T19:36:08Z nyef: Also means that you stack-allocate pretty much everything.
2014-04-18T19:37:08Z ggole: It's a very clever way to make use of a C compiler.
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2014-04-18T19:39:25Z ggole: If you're interested in the details, look up a paper by Henry Baker with the (wonderful) title of CONS Should Not CONS its Arguments.
2014-04-18T19:42:08Z dim: so, the binary image I get with buildapp is not portable between different values of the openssl.so pathname
2014-04-18T19:42:37Z dim: how to fix that?
2014-04-18T19:43:03Z Xach: dim: i think when saving an image it saves a table of shared libraries to re-open
2014-04-18T19:43:07Z stassats: close it, open anew
2014-04-18T19:43:07Z Xach: on restart
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2014-04-18T19:43:34Z dim: stassats: what do you mean?
2014-04-18T19:43:43Z dim: Xach: it being buildapp?
2014-04-18T19:44:17Z Xach: dim: being sbcl's underlying image-saving system
2014-04-18T19:44:23Z stassats: cffi:close-foreign-library
2014-04-18T19:44:24Z stassats: cffi:load-foreign-library
2014-04-18T19:44:44Z dim: Xach: oh. makes it a little more frightening when being the little fixer
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2014-04-18T19:45:20Z dim: stassats: I'm only using libs that are using cl+ssl, my main question is which of those should I hack to get a fix
2014-04-18T19:45:23Z Xach: dim: there's a table of foreign libraries and where they were loaded from, and on startup it maps through that table and tries to reopen. i think.
2014-04-18T19:45:35Z dim: cl+ssl itself, postmodern, qmynd, sbcl, buildapp...?
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2014-04-18T19:45:56Z Xach: i wonder if it saves it with a fully qualified pathname
2014-04-18T19:45:57Z dim: Xach: maybe using CCL instead here would just fix the problem?
2014-04-18T19:46:03Z Xach: dim: fsvo "fix"
2014-04-18T19:46:13Z Xach: dim: I think you might encounter a similar issue
2014-04-18T19:46:18Z Xach: can't hurt to try, though
2014-04-18T19:46:31Z dim: well my goal is to be able to build for CentOS 6.4 and have the binary run as-is on RHEL
2014-04-18T19:46:37Z stassats: (push (lambda () (cffi:close-foreign-library 'CL+SSL::LIBSSL)) sb-ext:*save-hooks*)
2014-04-18T19:46:47Z stassats: (push (lambda () (cffi:load-foreign-library 'CL+SSL::LIBSSL)) sb-ext:*init-hooks*)
2014-04-18T19:46:47Z dim: and typically they would have openssl 1.0.1 instead of 1.0.0
2014-04-18T19:47:12Z dim: stassats: wow, I think I can do that directly within the pgloader code
2014-04-18T19:47:28Z dim: well even in the buildapp command line maybe, actually
2014-04-18T19:47:38Z Xach: could be doable
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2014-04-18T19:48:34Z dim: thing is, in most cases cl+ssl will not even be used
2014-04-18T19:48:44Z dim: it's just opportunistically loaded from dependencies, I guess
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2014-04-18T19:51:55Z dim:   :weakly-depends-on (:cl+ssl :chipz :salza2)
2014-04-18T19:51:59Z dim: that's from qmynd
2014-04-18T19:52:15Z dim: would that cause ASDF to load cl+ssl when loading qmynd?
2014-04-18T19:53:48Z stassats: if you build it, the will load
2014-04-18T19:53:51Z stassats: they
2014-04-18T19:55:19Z dim: well (ql:quickload "postmodern") on a freshly started SBCL does not cause CL+SSL to be loaded, (ql:quickload "qmynd") causes it, when checked using find-package
2014-04-18T19:55:35Z dim: so it's down to qmynd (again?)
2014-04-18T19:56:08Z dim: stassats: some days I'm thinking I should have taken your advice and just wrote a new pure-CL limited driver for mysql for embedding into pgloader
2014-04-18T19:56:39Z dim: like, I now have a big slowdown that I couldn't profile, and don't know how to fix
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2014-04-18T20:07:01Z dim: stassats: your hooks seem not to break the build at least ;-)
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2014-04-18T20:50:51Z jasom: Anyone know why parenscript would barf on (return (@ e value))?
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2014-04-18T20:52:50Z jasom: (ps:ps (lambda (e) (return (@ e value)))) <-- when I reduce it to that, it seems to generate the right code, but it also generates a warning
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2014-04-18T20:55:35Z |3b|: is @ ps:@ ?
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2014-04-18T20:57:05Z jasom: |3b|: yes (though that explains why I was getting a different problem when passing it to macroexpand)
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2014-04-18T21:08:57Z oio: it is fine to think that supplied-p keyword parameter is useless?
2014-04-18T21:09:14Z stassats: it is fine to think wrong things
2014-04-18T21:10:36Z dim: oio: it really is useless until you have a use for it ;-)
2014-04-18T21:12:00Z |3b|: dim: you probably use it even if you don't know you use it, since CL functions probably depend on it
2014-04-18T21:12:17Z dim: that too, yeah
2014-04-18T21:13:42Z stassats: (make-pathname :type nil :defaults "foo.bar"), now, implement this without using supplied-p
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2014-04-18T21:16:05Z |3b|: stassats: default to an otherwise inaccessible symbol?
2014-04-18T21:17:10Z |3b|: (not suggesting that is actually a good or sane idea though, and not 100% reliable anyway in most implementations)
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2014-04-18T21:17:44Z |3b|: or rather 'otherwise inaccessible' isn't possible with debugging/introspection facilities
2014-04-18T21:18:38Z stassats: a global sentinel 'undefined' could be added, but adding things to the pile is not a good idea
2014-04-18T21:20:21Z stassats: actually, i know how
2014-04-18T21:20:41Z |3b|: i guess &rest works too
2014-04-18T21:20:57Z stassats: (defun make-pathname (&key (defaults default-defaults) (type (pathname-type defaults))))
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2014-04-18T21:22:23Z stassats: but my example was just not hard enough
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2014-04-18T21:27:04Z oio: lol
2014-04-18T21:27:10Z stassats: the same wouldn't work with :directory, e.g.
2014-04-18T21:27:31Z stassats: since they have to be merged
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2014-04-18T21:54:11Z francogrex: a question out of curiosity, in your years of experience in programming (lisp mainly but generally), what would you choose as the most amazing mind-blowing programming/hacking 'trick' you've learned or developed?
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2014-04-18T21:54:43Z francogrex: Mine was the use of lisp to poke and execute machine code in memory
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2014-04-18T22:06:11Z Xach: francogrex: that was an eye-opener for me, too, though i guess it was more via seeing the "disassemble" output of a function i just typed in
2014-04-18T22:06:55Z Xach: i always thought that kind of thing required editors, source files, possibly makefiles, compilers, in a loop.
2014-04-18T22:07:06Z eudoxia: w 2
2014-04-18T22:07:09Z eudoxia: ugh
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2014-04-18T22:12:13Z whartung: you guys didn't do a lot of BASIC back in the old home micro computer days, did ya?
2014-04-18T22:12:18Z jasom: Definitely the big eye-opener for me was when I realized that a compiler was just another program (and not a particularly complicated one (modulo optimizations))
2014-04-18T22:12:34Z jasom: whartung: gw-basic was my first programming language
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2014-04-18T22:13:03Z whartung: lots of programs back then would POKE machine language in to the machine for things
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2014-04-18T22:13:59Z whartung: the definiition of "computer" today is so far gone to what I grew up with.
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2014-04-18T22:14:47Z Bicyclidine: i'm with jasom, if we're being abstract. not that i use CL:COMPILE directly very much :P
2014-04-18T22:14:48Z jasom: My calculator in high school was similar in power to my computer in elementary school (and they both used a Z80!)
2014-04-18T22:14:53Z whartung: This hilighted to me once when I found out that the Game Boy Advanced had a Z80 as part of the main chip, along with main ARM(?) processor
2014-04-18T22:15:00Z whartung: heh
2014-04-18T22:15:31Z whartung: nowadays with hypervisors, emulators, VMs…hell if I know what a computer is any more lol
2014-04-18T22:18:53Z Xach: whartung: i missed the home micro days.
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2014-04-18T22:20:36Z whartung: I started on a micro, but then went to a mainframe in college. That was pretty night and day jumping from a machine you're as likely to cold reset as anything to a time shared multi user system. Couple years later, the school switched to PCs.
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2014-04-18T22:20:41Z whartung: I thought that was too bad.
2014-04-18T22:21:19Z whartung: there were a lot of "AHA" moments going from a micro where everything is very concrete to a multi user server system.
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2014-04-18T22:22:28Z whartung: Trying to learn FORTRAN on a TRS-80…I don't recommend it. The generic FORTRAN books didn't make a whole lot of sense in my context
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2014-04-18T22:23:40Z jasom: My dad got me a C compiler when I was 12; at this point I was on a 286 so I learned to program in C with "near" and "far" as keywords.
2014-04-18T22:23:54Z p_l: whartung: if you want to be further wrung out, read a book on modern CPU design, especially what they say on last two decades of x86 :>
2014-04-18T22:23:59Z whartung: man I sure wouldn't wish C on a 12 year old lol
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2014-04-18T22:24:26Z p_l: whartung: could be worse
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2014-04-18T22:24:39Z JuanDaugherty actually did smalltalk before C but I wasn't 12
2014-04-18T22:24:40Z jasom: whartung: I ran a bubble sort in C and BASIC and they finished in approximately 0s and 280s respectively
2014-04-18T22:24:40Z whartung: back in the day we used to say computers were deterministic…nowadays, I'm not so sure any more.
2014-04-18T22:24:48Z whartung: :)
2014-04-18T22:24:59Z whartung: that must have been a big array
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2014-04-18T22:25:06Z whartung: BASIC is slow, it's not THAT slow
2014-04-18T22:25:41Z jasom: It was probably 100k elements
2014-04-18T22:26:05Z jasom: since that's the largets power of 10 that would have fit in ram
2014-04-18T22:26:09Z whartung: I'm amazed you got 100K of anything in BASIC :)
2014-04-18T22:26:30Z whartung: but since the indexes were floats…not really surprising
2014-04-18T22:26:56Z whartung: Smalltalk would be better for a 12 year old, for sure
2014-04-18T22:27:59Z jasom: I think my dad set me in C so that it would take longer for me to solve the problems he gave me (giving him more time to work on his thesis)
2014-04-18T22:28:11Z JuanDaugherty: I was doing in a professional capacity. The prior job was as systems programmer in a burroughs shop so it was a crucial time
2014-04-18T22:28:46Z whartung: yay burroughs! bang prompt for the win!
2014-04-18T22:28:52Z whartung: (I saw one, I've never used one...)
2014-04-18T22:29:05Z JuanDaugherty: i had my own 6700
2014-04-18T22:29:29Z JuanDaugherty: which I shared with the app programmers of course
2014-04-18T22:29:37Z JuanDaugherty: the prod machine was a 6800
2014-04-18T22:29:46Z whartung: you look back on the space, size, power requirements of that thing…then you stare at your smart phone.
2014-04-18T22:30:09Z JuanDaugherty: yeha it had about a million words
2014-04-18T22:30:14Z whartung: w00t
2014-04-18T22:30:16Z JuanDaugherty: both machines iirc
2014-04-18T22:30:50Z JuanDaugherty: the operators console (SPO) for the 6700 was in my office
2014-04-18T22:31:52Z whartung: I knew a guy who bought (or at least leased) his own VAX 750 for his Commodoties app he had written. He later replaced it with Lotus 1-2-3 and a PC
2014-04-18T22:32:07Z JuanDaugherty: heavy C started at IBM boca, OS/2 project
2014-04-18T22:32:57Z JuanDaugherty: right would be another thing though for a burroughs large system prior to A series
2014-04-18T22:33:23Z JuanDaugherty: i've known more than one person with an as/400
2014-04-18T22:33:38Z whartung: yea I knew a guy with one of those, consultant working out of his office.
2014-04-18T22:34:10Z whartung: I sorta regret not having been able to spend a year or two on one of those. I don't think I'd like to have stayed there, but a year or two would have been interesting I think
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2014-04-18T22:34:57Z whartung: never cared for the form based interfaces of those things.
2014-04-18T22:35:12Z whartung: we had a Wang (just before I left) that had that.
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2014-04-18T22:35:26Z whartung: (No, I have no idea why they bought one of those…that was insane.)
2014-04-18T22:35:30Z JuanDaugherty: for me the pre A serious machines were kina like sailing ships in as much they used wire wrapped boards
2014-04-18T22:35:38Z whartung: heh
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2014-04-18T22:36:24Z JuanDaugherty: the original rpg was kinda ugly but the as/400 redo was fairly elegant and powerful
2014-04-18T22:36:52Z JuanDaugherty: for example the entre machine can be accessed as a single relational store
2014-04-18T22:37:16Z JuanDaugherty afk
2014-04-18T22:37:22Z jasom: hmm, any ideas how to track down a warning that happens at macroexpand time?
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2014-04-18T22:38:54Z whartung: what kind of warning?
2014-04-18T22:39:12Z Bicyclidine: you could use *break-on-signals* i guess but sldb's been enough for me for those
2014-04-18T22:39:39Z jasom: It's in parenscript, "WARNING: Returning from unknown block nilBlock"
2014-04-18T22:40:14Z Bicyclidine: that seems pretty straightforward to find, you have a return not in a block
2014-04-18T22:40:23Z jasom: it's not my code though
2014-04-18T22:41:46Z jasom: *sigh* and parenscript uses unearmuffed specials
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2014-04-18T22:42:37Z whartung: what is parenscript?
2014-04-18T22:42:52Z jasom: It's a lispy frontend for javascript written in common lisp
2014-04-18T22:42:59Z whartung: ah ok
2014-04-18T22:43:41Z jasom: and it looks like it was written by someone with a scheme background, judging by a special named "compile-statment?"
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2014-04-18T22:44:57Z whartung: a schemey script written in schemey lisp to create schemey algol
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2014-04-18T22:50:15Z jasom: hmm, can I get a source line from a backtrace?
2014-04-18T22:50:20Z jasom: in slbd
2014-04-18T22:50:56Z francogrex: try stepping
2014-04-18T22:51:24Z jasom: nevermind, I found the line; it wold be nice to know which line called the function in frame 0 though
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2014-04-18T22:54:00Z Xach: if you compile with high debug, "v" often jumps to useful places, like specific erroring forms.
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2014-04-18T22:55:04Z jasom: good to know.  Also, the example for how to use RETURN in parenscripts documentation causes a warning.
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2014-04-18T22:56:44Z JuanDaugherty:  yeah racket has a crappy algol 60
2014-04-18T22:56:55Z JuanDaugherty: i'm usin a68g
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2014-04-18T23:17:24Z jasom: apparently the docs are out-of-date; they state that RETURN just returns from the current function and BLOCK/RETURN-FROM isn't supported.  The code says different (and switching my code to (return-from function-name foo) works).
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2014-04-18T23:18:44Z EmacsHead: hi
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2014-04-18T23:19:53Z JuanDaugherty: yello EmacsHead
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2014-04-18T23:30:33Z jasom: For exactly the first time ever, I was looking at a non-lisp library and the readme said "If you are looking for the Common Lisp version see ..."
2014-04-18T23:31:02Z EmacsHead: oooo. I want to be a Common Lisp programmer.
2014-04-18T23:31:02Z EmacsHead:  
2014-04-18T23:31:25Z EmacsHead: i am learnign emacs first. then i'll learn lisp
2014-04-18T23:32:01Z EmacsHead: mastering the tools like paredit before i master the language. I want editing to be flowing already when I start learning.
2014-04-18T23:32:29Z EmacsHead: hey hey. do you use paredit?
2014-04-18T23:32:55Z EmacsHead: do you reccomend it? I am goign down the paredit path and practicing the examples in the reference.
2014-04-18T23:33:30Z jasom doesn't use it, but a lot of people seem to really like it
2014-04-18T23:34:26Z EmacsHead: what is your tooling set up for lisp Jasom?
2014-04-18T23:34:48Z jasom: EMACS+slime+evil-mode
2014-04-18T23:35:03Z jasom: don't use evil-mode though unless you've been using vim for a long time (like I have)
2014-04-18T23:35:05Z EmacsHead: omg. i'm using evil too! I have recently switched from Vim.
2014-04-18T23:35:27Z EmacsHead: using lisp as a reason to learn emacs.
2014-04-18T23:35:39Z oGMo: EmacsHead: yes, paredit rocks .. but watch out, you will start expecting it to work everywhere :(
2014-04-18T23:36:02Z oGMo: and, M-x paredit-convolute-sexp is magic
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2014-04-18T23:36:13Z jasom: For about 5 years I used vim as my editor and emacs as just a debugger, but evil-mode got me close enough to vim that my muscle memory hardly ever complains
2014-04-18T23:37:24Z EmacsHead: I have set up evil-leader so my leader keys work. Set up my custom snippets with Yasnippet and they used almost hte same syntax as Vim's snipmate. Switching was easier than I thought.
2014-04-18T23:38:56Z EmacsHead: My main task right now is melding myself to paredit. I like the idea of structured edits over raw edits.
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2014-04-18T23:41:26Z EmacsHead: gotta go
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2014-04-18T23:49:45Z Hydan is now known as Hydan`
2014-04-18T23:50:34Z axion: been using vim and lisp for about 4 years myself
2014-04-18T23:52:00Z White_Flame: I know just enough emacs to support my Lisp use, even though I've been using it for such for maybe pushing 10 years now
2014-04-18T23:52:39Z whartung: I used to use emacs, used it for years. has a solid grasp on the .0001% of it that I knew.
2014-04-18T23:53:42Z White_Flame: The absolute worst was when I was working another job, where the email client had C-e as the "Send email" keystroke.  I sent so many unfinished drafts to business clients.
2014-04-18T23:53:56Z whartung: lol
2014-04-18T23:54:04Z whartung: unpossible
2014-04-18T23:54:40Z whartung: sounds more like ESP testing with Dr. Venkman
2014-04-18T23:55:06Z White_Flame: I think it was Eudora
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2014-04-19T00:39:46Z Xach: now there's a name i've not heard since...
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2014-04-19T01:05:22Z green44: how are search functions made?
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2014-04-19T01:27:46Z axion: can you give an example of what you're trying to do?
2014-04-19T01:30:54Z Xach: green44: when a momma search function and a daddy search function love each other very much...
2014-04-19T01:31:32Z green44: axion
2014-04-19T01:31:48Z green44: i'd like for users to search my internal database for stuff
2014-04-19T01:32:29Z green44: they're on my site looking for users or listings
2014-04-19T01:32:46Z axion: some code you want to interface with would help
2014-04-19T01:33:05Z green44: i've never done this before :*(
2014-04-19T01:33:33Z axion: depends on your data structures
2014-04-19T01:33:35Z green44: i'm using rails, but i heard lisp was used in reddit so i would like to do the same thing
2014-04-19T01:33:48Z axion: perhaps you should read PCL before trying to code
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2014-04-19T01:52:38Z bjorkintosh: green44, that was 10 years or so ago.
2014-04-19T01:53:06Z bjorkintosh: they've since moved on.
2014-04-19T01:53:12Z green44: oh
2014-04-19T01:54:01Z bjorkintosh: there are many resources for learning to program in whatever language you choose. it's always a good idea to learn the basics with a project in mind.
2014-04-19T01:54:26Z bjorkintosh: have you learnt the basics yet?
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2014-04-19T01:55:10Z green44: what are the basics?
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2014-04-19T02:42:12Z zRecursive: 1+1=2 ")"
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2014-04-19T04:01:55Z urbottocks: re. nyef been around lately?
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2014-04-19T04:12:17Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2014-04-19T04:13:21Z urbottocks: goo' moanin', B.
2014-04-19T04:14:34Z Quadrescence: Brilliant mathematical research with implications on Lisp definition and compilation strategies: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNN3VhcRfjM
2014-04-19T04:15:53Z urbottocks: brilliant enough to be available in text, plain?
2014-04-19T04:15:56Z urbottocks: |-:
2014-04-19T04:16:00Z Bike: Quadrescence is joking.
2014-04-19T04:16:12Z urbottocks: i cannot use yt
2014-04-19T04:16:29Z urbottocks slaps knee.
2014-04-19T04:16:30Z Quadrescence: Bike, you caught me :(
2014-04-19T04:16:31Z urbottocks: o.
2014-04-19T04:16:36Z Quadrescence: i was sure i'd fool someone
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2014-04-19T04:18:05Z urbottocks: heh.
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2014-04-19T04:18:22Z urbottocks: i would be disingenuous not to admit to being a fool.
2014-04-19T04:18:34Z urbottocks: compensates for ego
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2014-04-19T04:42:00Z beach: Hmm, I need a better way to organize the table of contents of http://metamodular.com/POSIX-API/table-of-contents.html or else the error codes will be too prominent.
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2014-04-19T04:44:51Z Bike: shouldn't you have the high-level before the low-level anyway?
2014-04-19T04:45:00Z beach: Yeah, probably.
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2014-04-19T05:02:00Z theos: Quadrescence that guy looks retarded
2014-04-19T05:02:25Z theos: (unless its you :D)
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2014-04-19T05:02:30Z Quadrescence: phi = (+ phi 1 1 (/ phi)), for the record
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2014-04-19T05:35:28Z beach: mathrick: Around?
2014-04-19T05:36:24Z beach: mathrick: I didn't see your PM until after I had left.  Sorry!
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2014-04-19T06:20:09Z urbottocks: beach: seen nyef lately?
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2014-04-19T06:30:06Z beach: urbottocks: He is here regularly.  He is probably asleep right now.
2014-04-19T06:30:44Z urbottocks: beach: nod. thanks.
2014-04-19T06:30:55Z urbottocks: nyef seems infrequent, lately.
2014-04-19T06:32:05Z beach: Not really.  Try grep nyef 14* | grep join in the logs.  You'll see that he is here almost every day.
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2014-04-19T07:38:20Z solidus_: I'm trying to set a :reader for a certain slot to be a lambda expression and get a compilation error. Is it even possible?
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2014-04-19T07:38:59Z beach: solidus_: No, readers are generic functions.
2014-04-19T07:38:59Z solidus_: x : (lambda () (format t "x reader") x)
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2014-04-19T07:39:44Z beach: clhs defclass
2014-04-19T07:39:44Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defcla.htm
2014-04-19T07:39:48Z Bike: what would that even mean
2014-04-19T07:39:58Z Bike: the definition of the reader depends on how classes are implemented
2014-04-19T07:40:02Z solidus_: just want to print out a message each time reader is invoked
2014-04-19T07:40:13Z Bike: define a :before on the reader method
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2014-04-19T07:42:00Z solidus_: so what is the meaning of what follows the ":reader"? the name of the generic method that is generated?
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2014-04-19T07:42:15Z Bike: The name of the generic function, yes
2014-04-19T07:42:23Z beach: solidus_: Yes, that's what the page says that I showed you above.
2014-04-19T07:42:26Z Bike: I'm not sure what you expected a lambda expression to do
2014-04-19T07:42:56Z solidus_: well, its easier to define what i want to do inline instead of having to write the whole "(defmethod x ..." thing
2014-04-19T07:43:20Z Bike: yes but what you want to do would seem to have nothing to do with what :reader usually does
2014-04-19T07:43:26Z solidus_: and it kinda makes sense that i can supply a lambda expression that is invoked each time i want to read the slot
2014-04-19T07:44:05Z Bike: :reader foo defines a foo that reads, you want :reader foo to have the reader call foo, it's totally different
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2014-04-19T07:45:05Z solidus_: okay now i understand the difference, thanks
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2014-04-19T08:24:00Z beach: nullman: Is there a way you can stop these repeated joins and quits?
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2014-04-19T09:12:43Z zobr3jb: (hello)
2014-04-19T09:14:29Z PuercoPop: beach: you can configure your irc-client to hide them automatically, you use erc right?
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2014-04-19T09:15:51Z beach: hello zobr3jb.
2014-04-19T09:16:06Z beach: PuercoPop: Yes, but they still show up in the logs.
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2014-04-19T09:16:23Z stassats: write a log parser!
2014-04-19T09:16:53Z beach: zobr3jb: New here?
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2014-04-19T09:34:28Z beach: PuercoPop: In ERC, how does one hide only join/quit messages from a particular nick?  The manual is pretty skimpy.
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2014-04-19T09:34:56Z stassats: i hide 'em all
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2014-04-19T09:42:29Z PuercoPop: beach: I hide them all: (setq erc-hide-list '("JOIN" "PART" "QUIT" "NICK"))
2014-04-19T09:42:54Z PuercoPop: (although I use rcirc because erc blocks emacs when downloading torrents)
2014-04-19T09:43:16Z beach: I see.  Thanks.
2014-04-19T09:43:52Z stassats: and if you are using tracking, you can just disable tracking those things
2014-04-19T09:44:01Z stassats: i have (setq erc-track-exclude-types '("JOIN" "KICK" "NICK" "PART" "QUIT" "MODE" "333" "353" "324" "329"))
2014-04-19T09:44:20Z stassats: so, they will still show up in the log, but won't bother as much
2014-04-19T09:45:02Z beach: OK, thanks.
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2014-04-19T09:48:48Z PuercoPop: interesting, so I have redundant stuff in my config. That is what I get for copying and pasting.
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2014-04-19T09:50:16Z johnr: Hello #lisp. Can someone explain to me is Shen programming langage true lisp when you compare it to common lisp or scheme ?   lisp noobie
2014-04-19T09:50:34Z stassats: define true lisp
2014-04-19T09:51:10Z johnr: maybe not 'true lisp' but 'lisp'
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2014-04-19T09:51:18Z stassats: define lisp
2014-04-19T09:51:21Z beach: heh!
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2014-04-19T09:51:38Z johnr: dunno let me google it :)
2014-04-19T09:51:40Z stassats: some people don't find "scheme" to be a lisp
2014-04-19T09:51:57Z stassats: (and i don't know why i added quotes to scheme)
2014-04-19T09:52:09Z beach: johnr: Why is this question important to you?
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2014-04-19T09:53:12Z johnr: beach, its not. i am just curious
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2014-04-19T09:55:06Z beach: johnr: Since "lisp" is not a well defined concept, you won't find an answer to your question.
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2014-04-19T09:56:06Z stassats: i can tell what i think, i think it's just another toy programming language which tries to pass itself as a lisp, but it's not
2014-04-19T09:56:11Z stassats: (see also: clojure)
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2014-04-19T09:59:04Z johnr: nvm, thanks guys. need moar to study about lisp ^^
2014-04-19T09:59:06Z johnr: bye
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2014-04-19T09:59:38Z PuercoPop: stassats: how is clojure not a lisp?
2014-04-19T09:59:46Z stassats: how is clojure a lisp?
2014-04-19T10:00:14Z beach: Please guys!  I thought we agreed that it is not well defined.  I guess not :(
2014-04-19T10:00:15Z stassats: (it's a rhetorical question, i'm not interested in answer)
2014-04-19T10:01:30Z s00pcan: all I've done so far with lisp is use emacs cor 10 months and start on this lisp-koans exercises I found on github.
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2014-04-19T10:09:05Z beach: s00pcan: And how is that going?
2014-04-19T10:09:56Z PuercoPop: I agree that is not well defined and not of particular importance. But I was rather curious why would someone say that clojure is not a lisp. Anyhow I'm not looking to make an argument for clojure.
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2014-04-19T10:10:45Z beach: Someone who has a definition of "lisp" that excludes clojure would say that.
2014-04-19T10:11:38Z beach: Gee, how hard can it be to understand what "not well defined" means?
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2014-04-19T10:28:56Z theos: beach as hard as it is to understand what "RTFM" means
2014-04-19T10:29:53Z beach: That's different though.
2014-04-19T10:30:07Z stassats: read this for me?
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2014-04-19T10:30:55Z beach: stassats: What do you mean?
2014-04-19T10:31:13Z stassats: RTFM
2014-04-19T10:31:18Z beach: Oh.
2014-04-19T10:31:24Z theos: heh
2014-04-19T10:31:33Z beach: minion: What does RTFM mean?
2014-04-19T10:31:33Z minion: Reformedly Trist Film Misinflame
2014-04-19T10:31:34Z theos: i told you it was difficult to understand lol
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2014-04-19T10:31:53Z theos: minion: What does RTFM mean?
2014-04-19T10:31:53Z minion: Reslate Tetanomotor Fissiparation Monorhinal
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2014-04-19T10:33:54Z beach: I suspect that behind a question such as "is language X a Lisp" is the same argument as in questions like "is discipline Y a science", i.e. to some people "Lisp" and "Science" seem to mean the equivalent of "good" so not being a Lisp and not being a science means "no good".  This is not so of course.
2014-04-19T10:35:42Z beach: What *might* be a worthwhile question to ask someone would be "What are some of the criteria you require in order for language X to be a Lisp?"  But the answer can not be argued with, because everyone is free to define "Lisp" as he or she wants.
2014-04-19T10:35:53Z stassats: a definition needs to serve some purpose, common lisp and scheme are so much different, that the grouping them into the "lisp" category brings no clarity
2014-04-19T10:35:59Z Shinmera: But then why ask the obviously unspecified question of whether it's a lisp, rather than asking what makes it good/bad, which would lead to more satisfying and constructive answers.
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2014-04-19T10:38:48Z beach: Shinmera: Because people typically do not realize why they want something to be a Lisp or a science.
2014-04-19T10:39:46Z beach: stassats: I fully agree.  But clarity is not universal, so I can understand why people would group them together based on superficial similarities like "lots of parentheses."
2014-04-19T10:41:31Z mathrick: beach: I'm around now
2014-04-19T10:41:38Z mathrick: what's up?
2014-04-19T10:42:12Z Shinmera: beach: I suppose it's also a question asked more in the context of "does X belong to Y group of people", rather than it being really related to curiosity about X itself.
2014-04-19T10:42:12Z beach: mathrick: Oh, I just wanted to wish you good luck with everything.  Also let you know that you should not feel that you owe me anything; book or software or anything else.
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2014-04-19T10:43:06Z mathrick: beach: oh, but I want to, that helps me with organising my motivation. Plus, I also owe it myself, so encouragement (which is how I always take your inquiries) is more than appreciated
2014-04-19T10:43:11Z beach: Shinmera: Grouping people can be a very dangerous thing though.
2014-04-19T10:43:23Z mathrick: PuercoPop: clojure is a lisp, but it's a peculiar one
2014-04-19T10:43:38Z stassats: says you
2014-04-19T10:43:48Z beach: mathrick: Please don't go there (about what a Lisp is)!
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2014-04-19T10:44:13Z beach: mathrick: Sure, I can encourage you, if that's what you want.  You need to be around more often, though. :)
2014-04-19T10:44:49Z mathrick: beach: yeah, I won't, it was just a voice trying to shed light on "why'd someone say that". Clojure is really far apart from CL, so if you consider CL "the" Lisp, then Clojure will be stretching your definition
2014-04-19T10:45:33Z mathrick: beach: yeah, I know, it was the couple of snags I mentioned. Nothing that won't be for ultimate good it seems, but it did upset my schedule
2014-04-19T10:45:50Z beach: mathrick: Yes, I understand.
2014-04-19T10:45:56Z Shinmera: beach: Yeah, which is why I deem the question to be dangerous
2014-04-19T10:46:18Z beach: Shinmera: Indeed.  Proceed with caution.
2014-04-19T10:46:30Z stassats: then javascript is a lisp too
2014-04-19T10:46:39Z beach: *sigh*
2014-04-19T10:47:29Z mathrick: the current stassats alert level is: grumpy
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2014-04-19T10:48:06Z stassats: eh?
2014-04-19T10:48:51Z beach: Many CS papers I read use the word "simple", like "A simple graph is a graph with no multiple edges and no loops".  Maybe I should start telling them "THAT IS NOT SIMPLE.",  "IF YOU THINK THAT IS SIMPLE, THEN DO YOU ALSO THINK QUANTUM MECHANICS IS SIMPLE?".
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2014-04-19T10:49:05Z mathrick: heh
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2014-04-19T10:49:37Z p_l: beach: (non-quantum) physicist tell me that you need to be, ahem, "touched in the head" to grok QM. Probably said state makes them simple.
2014-04-19T10:49:42Z mathrick: to be fair, picking a specific technical definition of a $word is what you do in papers / mathematics in general
2014-04-19T10:50:22Z mathrick: also, I'm being told the maths behind QM is indeed simple. It's really undergrad course on 3rd semester or so
2014-04-19T10:50:30Z mathrick: it's the implications that aren't
2014-04-19T10:50:31Z stassats: clhs glossary/simple
2014-04-19T10:50:31Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_s.htm#simple
2014-04-19T10:50:35Z beach: mathrick: And that's the only way to do it without getting into endless discussions with no purpose.  This is why a person who asks "Is X a Lisp" must first define what he or she means by "a Lisp".
2014-04-19T10:50:38Z mathrick: QM might be both simple and counter-intuitive
2014-04-19T10:50:49Z mathrick: true!
2014-04-19T10:51:24Z beach: In case anyone missed it, I picked quantum mechanics quite arbitrarily.
2014-04-19T10:51:37Z p_l: mathrick: iirc, at least some bits in quantum physics go into "we need to invent new stuff in maths to comply with our $interpretation", where differing interpretations invent different things, and one doesn't but is mostly a crazy thought experiment with horrible implications
2014-04-19T10:51:53Z mathrick: beach: oh, btw, I now know much more about TeX, and I've come to agree very much about your core tenet of any good typesetting system (you've expressed it a while back): more than anything else, it should not have an input format
2014-04-19T10:51:58Z p_l: beach: and we proceeded to split a hair into 2^64 to prove it ;)
2014-04-19T10:52:13Z beach: stassats: Good catch.
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2014-04-19T10:52:42Z beach: mathrick: Great!
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2014-04-19T10:53:50Z mathrick: p_l: yeah, but the difficulty isn't the maths itself (although there are new mathematical objects invented for QM), it's the problem that in absence of experiments to test it, any of those off-the-wall versions is equally plausible.Or you can get into things like string theor(y/ies), where you have countably infinite number of consistent string theories, and no obvious signs how to test for any single one
2014-04-19T10:54:38Z p_l: mathrick: yeah, I forgot to include the turing tarpit of interpretations
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2014-04-19T10:55:13Z mathrick: p_l: the amplituhedron for instance is very neat and it likely wouldn't have happened without QM
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2014-04-19T10:56:13Z stassats: proceed to #quantum-mechanics
2014-04-19T10:57:07Z mathrick: beach: TeX really leaks its guts all over the place, and it seems to me that half the leakage actually comes from its weird, awkward attempt at being independent of the input format
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2014-04-19T11:02:00Z beach: mathrick: Interesting analysis.  I think it is what it is because Knuth decided at some point that it must be Turing complete, but then he is not a good language designer.
2014-04-19T11:03:00Z mathrick: yeah
2014-04-19T11:03:01Z mathrick: it kinda needs to be, but it should be turing-complete at a different level than it's a typesetting system
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2014-04-19T11:03:58Z beach: The problem with a Turing-complete type setting system is that you can not know what anything means unless you scan the entire document from the beginning.
2014-04-19T11:04:05Z mathrick: as it is, it's a really bad language which has bits and pieces of typesetting all over every available surface, and an arcane typesetting system which randomly segues into "but that is impossible to change without rewriting the world"
2014-04-19T11:04:30Z beach: Sounds right.
2014-04-19T11:04:59Z beach: mathrick: Did you read what Didier Verna suggested about rewriting TeX with CL as a basis?
2014-04-19T11:05:20Z beach: I only read the abstract(s), but he might have some good ideas if he has given it some thought.
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2014-04-19T11:05:39Z mathrick: beach: that is true, but you can't really do everything you want without running into such a scenario. Right now I'm leaning towards a very strongly layered design, where each lower layer is an API for the layer above and only that, and in the worst case you can replace lower chunk of it without breaking the upper layers
2014-04-19T11:05:58Z mathrick: beach: no, though I've tangentially seen his TeX work. Do you have a link?
2014-04-19T11:06:19Z beach: Not easily available.  I would have to go to his web site.
2014-04-19T11:06:26Z mathrick: I know he wrote CL-Bibtex, and a lot of very advanced TeX packages (like FiXme)
2014-04-19T11:06:43Z beach: Really?  I didn't know that.
2014-04-19T11:06:48Z beach: Nice.
2014-04-19T11:06:56Z beach: So he must know what he is talking about.
2014-04-19T11:07:37Z beach: Layered design sounds like a good plan to avoid the complete leakage of every low-level aspect to every other aspect of it.
2014-04-19T11:07:59Z mathrick: beach: I'm not sure "rewriting TeX in X" is the best approach, there's already X=Lua and it has much more momentum than CL-TeX could ever hope to achieve. Rather, I'd let myself be inspired by TeX, both in what it got right and what it got wrong
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2014-04-19T11:08:59Z beach: I don't know whether his approach is good or nut until I have read the details about his suggestion.  I don't think it was as simple as "rewrite TeX in CL.".
2014-04-19T11:09:07Z beach: s/nut/not/
2014-04-19T11:09:08Z Xach: That would at least make it on-topic.
2014-04-19T11:09:59Z mathrick: beach: yeah, and I'd have one layer which dives into explicitly presentational layer, with perhaps one more layer being "even more explicit presentation", when applicable for the medium. Thus a completely new medium like HTML as opposed to print would be rewriting, say, 3 bottom layers, whereas the equivalent of a new latex style should be the thin top-most layer
2014-04-19T11:10:50Z mathrick: I'd also collect all the various "typesetting in Lisp" systems created over the years, there have been a couple of those
2014-04-19T11:11:07Z beach: mathrick: To complicated for me to understand.  I'll wait until you write a specification or until you can show concrete results. :)
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2014-04-19T11:12:23Z mathrick: beach: yeah, it's not entirely clear to me either. It's at the stage of mental note-taking at the moment :). Incidentally, I suspect a working presentation system for CLIMatis would shed a lot of light on the type of issues you run into
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2014-04-19T11:13:00Z beach: Sounds right.
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2014-04-19T11:13:30Z mathrick: beach: but that also reminds me that not baking in tool support into it from the beginning is another TeX omission to avoid
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2014-04-19T11:13:54Z beach: What kind of tools?
2014-04-19T11:14:11Z mathrick: you clearly can't make it fully independent of everything and Turing-complete without losing tooling, but you can do a lot while being flexible
2014-04-19T11:14:30Z mathrick: beach: editors of "semi-WYSIWYG" variety for instance
2014-04-19T11:14:39Z beach: Got it.
2014-04-19T11:14:48Z mathrick: real WYSIWYG is bad for everyone, but some extent of it is really needed
2014-04-19T11:15:21Z mathrick: if nothing else, the tool should grok things like references to other parts
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2014-04-19T11:15:59Z cnap: hi guys
2014-04-19T11:16:01Z beach: No interactive system that claims to be WYSIWYG only gives you what you see.
2014-04-19T11:16:05Z beach: Hello cnap.
2014-04-19T11:16:07Z mathrick: hello cnap
2014-04-19T11:16:08Z s00pcan: beach: : I'm learning lisp because it's something to do, that's about all.  No idea what I'm doing yet
2014-04-19T11:16:23Z cnap: I dont know lisp but i was doing a quick assignment and I have a question
2014-04-19T11:16:25Z beach: s00pcan: Good enough.
2014-04-19T11:16:31Z mathrick: beach: yeah, WYSIWYG is snake oil. Doesn't do what it claims and is strictly harmful to you
2014-04-19T11:16:36Z s00pcan: I'll go back to working on the lisp koans now that I'm satisfied with fiddling with my terminal fonts
2014-04-19T11:16:39Z mathrick: but a measure of it is good
2014-04-19T11:17:02Z cnap: so is there a way to write the whole output of a function into a file?
2014-04-19T11:17:14Z cnap: lets say that inside a function I have many (format t )
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2014-04-19T11:17:34Z stassats: (with-open-file (*standard-output* file :direction :output) ...)
2014-04-19T11:17:39Z cnap: so I would like to save the whole output of my program to a file and I want to do this with lisp
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2014-04-19T11:18:09Z beach: cnap: What stassats says.
2014-04-19T11:18:14Z cnap: stassats:hey thx
2014-04-19T11:18:16Z cnap: thx beach
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2014-04-19T11:18:32Z cnap: so I should open this stream before calling any other function ?
2014-04-19T11:18:43Z cnap: and include all of them in its scope
2014-04-19T11:18:48Z cnap: and its gonna write anything to the file ?
2014-04-19T11:18:51Z beach: cnap: The "..." means call your function there.
2014-04-19T11:19:02Z cnap: looks neat, ok im gonna try it
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2014-04-19T11:20:04Z stassats: clhs dribble
2014-04-19T11:20:04Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_dribbl.htm
2014-04-19T11:20:38Z cnap: oops i see this works
2014-04-19T11:20:44Z cnap: but I didnt mention my restriction
2014-04-19T11:20:57Z cnap: I want output to go both in a file and standard output
2014-04-19T11:21:19Z mathrick: DRIBBLE is not required to have any particular format or meaning other than "you should be able to grok it"
2014-04-19T11:21:44Z mathrick: so it's not a good replacement for (with-open-file ...)
2014-04-19T11:22:32Z stassats: cnap: (with-open-file (stream file :direction :output) (let ((*standard-output* (make-broadcast-stream *standard-output* stream))) ...))
2014-04-19T11:22:52Z cnap: wow thx
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2014-04-19T11:24:34Z cnap: damn it works perfectly as I wanted it to
2014-04-19T11:24:39Z cnap: this was very quick awesome !!!
2014-04-19T11:24:45Z beach: Of course!
2014-04-19T11:24:49Z cnap: thank you all guys and thx stassats
2014-04-19T11:25:13Z cnap: so yeah I am not into lisp but I am a python guy and I am struggling to see where functional programming helps me
2014-04-19T11:25:26Z cnap: ofc the assignment won't let me see the need of LISP coz its crappy
2014-04-19T11:25:30Z mathrick: cnap: lisp is not a functional language
2014-04-19T11:25:34Z stassats: good thing that Common Lisp is not functional programming
2014-04-19T11:25:42Z beach: cnap: You had better go elsewhere then, because CL is not a functional programming language.
2014-04-19T11:25:46Z cnap: and what is it?
2014-04-19T11:25:57Z stassats: just good old programming
2014-04-19T11:26:00Z cnap: i always was told that its functional lol
2014-04-19T11:26:14Z beach: Now you know better.
2014-04-19T11:26:18Z stassats: people are known to be wrong
2014-04-19T11:26:22Z mathrick: "multi-paradigm" is the common name. Which means "whatever you need it to be", Lisp doesn't have a strong opinion one way or another
2014-04-19T11:26:40Z cnap: Functional programming languages, especially purely functional ones such as Hope and Rex, have largely been emphasized in academia rather than in commercial software development. However, prominent functional programming languages such as Common Lisp,
2014-04-19T11:26:44Z mathrick: it's there to make your programming possible, not to tell you how to do it
2014-04-19T11:26:46Z cnap: this taken from wikipedia lol
2014-04-19T11:26:51Z beach: cnap: Lisp is also not "interpreted", "slow", "only has lists", etc.
2014-04-19T11:26:53Z cnap: i see mathrick
2014-04-19T11:27:17Z cnap: well look I cant say that I see the reason to use lisp instead of python
2014-04-19T11:27:18Z cnap: but
2014-04-19T11:27:27Z cnap: if I consider that LISP was out so EARLY ~1960
2014-04-19T11:27:36Z cnap: this is amazing how people thought about List processing
2014-04-19T11:27:41Z cnap: and they made a great job
2014-04-19T11:27:45Z stassats: CL was out only in 1994
2014-04-19T11:27:53Z mathrick: cnap: it
2014-04-19T11:27:55Z mathrick: erh
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2014-04-19T11:28:08Z stassats: what was in 1960s is vastly different from today
2014-04-19T11:28:19Z cnap: ah and I was amuzed hehe
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2014-04-19T11:28:23Z mathrick: cnap: it's commonly claimed that Lisp was "discovered" more than "invented", and for good reasons
2014-04-19T11:28:28Z beach: cnap: In case you feel like seeing some reasons some day: http://random-state.net/features-of-common-lisp.html
2014-04-19T11:28:30Z cnap: I see i see
2014-04-19T11:28:41Z cnap: yes why not its fun :)
2014-04-19T11:29:03Z cnap: thank you i am gonna read this now
2014-04-19T11:29:04Z s00pcan: check out "the computer chronicles" on youtube if you want to see how little things have changed... full series of a computer show from the 80's until 2000s
2014-04-19T11:29:14Z cnap: thx s00pcan
2014-04-19T11:29:29Z cnap: I like it when theres irc with nice people. Thank you guys
2014-04-19T11:29:34Z stassats: the best feature of CL is its malleability
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2014-04-19T11:30:04Z cnap: stassats: can u explain further?
2014-04-19T11:30:16Z cnap: does this mean that it can change easily ?
2014-04-19T11:30:22Z stassats: i just adjusted the compiler to optimize (coerce x '(complex double-float)) to be as efficient as (complex (float x 'double-float)) without restarting
2014-04-19T11:30:32Z cnap: aha I see
2014-04-19T11:30:39Z mathrick: cnap: CL is a toolbox to make it easy to construct the language you need, rather than the language you will be using directly with no changes
2014-04-19T11:30:53Z cnap: great I got it now
2014-04-19T11:31:10Z mathrick: so things which are verboten in other environments are out there in the open for you to adjust
2014-04-19T11:31:43Z mathrick: cnap: think of Python bytecode hacks, and now consider that it's all built into CL from the very beginning and meant to be done
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2014-04-19T11:31:56Z cnap: yes I understand
2014-04-19T11:32:01Z cnap: thats cool
2014-04-19T11:32:22Z cnap: however I did only basic stuff the past 2 days with lisp, so I didnt see that feature
2014-04-19T11:32:27Z cnap: but sees interesting
2014-04-19T11:32:48Z mathrick: and python is already closer to the liberty of CL than most other languages you're likely to encounter (like Java or C++ say)
2014-04-19T11:33:36Z cnap: i see
2014-04-19T11:34:40Z cnap: ok will go back to studying this page and then I have to afk
2014-04-19T11:34:44Z mathrick: cnap: yeah, don't expect to grok lisp immediately. It's a shift in perspective, so by definition it can't be done other than by adjusting yourself to see things in another way and think differently. It comes wit practice and use
2014-04-19T11:34:45Z cnap: once again thank you very much people
2014-04-19T11:34:53Z beach: cnap: Good luck to you.
2014-04-19T11:35:00Z cnap: mathrick: thx
2014-04-19T11:35:04Z cnap: you 2 beach :)
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2014-04-19T11:36:54Z beach: I suspect CL's greatest asset is the people who use it.  It is a bunch of very knowledgeable people.  As opposed to most other groups of people I encounter.
2014-04-19T11:37:33Z p_l: beach: I think you have bad luck... but yes, CL got eclectic bunch that probably makes it easier
2014-04-19T11:37:53Z p_l: afk - time to travel for easter with family :)
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2014-04-19T11:41:44Z mathrick: p_l: the tools and the people are strongly connected. PHP for instance is a bunch of morons leading the morons. C++ is people who wank over to "efficiency" without ever measuring it or "flexibility" understood as "everything you can build will be equally crappy", plus a bunch of immensely brilliant people who are stuck with C++ for one reason or another. Python and Ruby are outwardly similar, but Ruby loves the fast & loose rockstar lifestyle whilst Pyth
2014-04-19T11:41:45Z mathrick: on hates it
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2014-04-19T11:42:12Z stassats: cl people don't lack in smugness
2014-04-19T11:42:23Z mathrick: never said they did :)
2014-04-19T11:42:50Z mathrick: but it's commonly backed by smartness corresponding to the smugness
2014-04-19T11:44:12Z s00pcan: all the positions I've looked at in my area are .Net or Java, if not some web development (which I've decided is not challenging).  I really don't want to go back to another php position
2014-04-19T11:44:15Z beach: mathrick: I like your characterization of the C++ crowd.  I have no idea whether it is accurate or not, but it's amusing.
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2014-04-19T11:45:08Z s00pcan: I'd love to do C++ as a job, because I'm all about obsessing over perceived efficency, but I lack anything beyond academic experience with it
2014-04-19T11:45:40Z stassats: what about assembly lovers? the other language, beside CL, that i like
2014-04-19T11:45:50Z beach: mathrick: I have met a few people who correspond to the "efficiency wankers".  They never did measure indeed.  They seem to think smart pointers and reference counting is practically free.
2014-04-19T11:46:21Z mathrick: beach: yes, and that temporaries will be "optimised out" by the mythical smart compiler
2014-04-19T11:47:10Z mathrick: beach: I spent a lot of my time in C++ before I smartened up, so I have a lot of resentment, but also quite a lot of first-hand experience
2014-04-19T11:47:26Z mathrick: I'm really thankful to my good fortune that I never did anything truly important in C++
2014-04-19T11:47:36Z beach: Oh, nice!  Good to know what you are talking about in arguments.
2014-04-19T11:48:16Z s00pcan: ok, c++ is lame.  what's your take on C then?
2014-04-19T11:48:27Z mathrick: s00pcan: unpleasant, but workable
2014-04-19T11:48:45Z mathrick: I'll avoid C when possible, but pick C over many other things where it's the most sensible option
2014-04-19T11:49:14Z s00pcan: I'm just trying to find challenging work and need to learn some languages that aren't associated with web dev
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2014-04-19T11:49:36Z stassats: i heard assembly isn't associated with web dev
2014-04-19T11:49:38Z s00pcan: if I get to a job and someone asks me to add social media bs... ugh
2014-04-19T11:49:40Z mathrick: I have a lot of historical hate for C, in that C happened at the expense of other, better things that didn't. But for what it is, C is fair and truly the only option still in many ases
2014-04-19T11:50:39Z s00pcan: I'd take C happily as a career for a few years.  I would enjoy building up my tools to use it properly
2014-04-19T11:50:41Z mathrick: s00pcan: or you can go the CL route and write your own autarkic web framework nobody else will ever use or understand :)
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2014-04-19T11:50:56Z s00pcan: learned the other day that the first webapp was made in lisp heh
2014-04-19T11:51:02Z mathrick: but at least you'll have complete freedom in your tool choices
2014-04-19T11:51:09Z s00pcan: for disdain of writing code to run on windows
2014-04-19T11:52:25Z s00pcan: ok, I can say I've never seen the word autarkic before
2014-04-19T11:52:46Z mathrick: it's a good word to know if you're writing Lisp
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2014-04-19T11:54:56Z s00pcan: I did a search on dice and there was only one job listing lisp as a requirement.... one.
2014-04-19T11:55:07Z s00pcan: (detroit area)
2014-04-19T11:55:11Z pjb: s00pcan: the thing is that you're not left with much time to write tools when you have to program in C>
2014-04-19T11:55:11Z mathrick: don't expect Lisp jobs to come to you
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2014-04-19T11:55:39Z s00pcan: oh, of course not.  I know how it is
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2014-04-19T11:57:29Z s00pcan: I'm thinking I'll get some experience with C hacking on open-source stuff I already use daily, like tmux.  Make it do whatever I want, because I said so, dammit.
2014-04-19T11:58:20Z s00pcan: lisp practice from daily use of emacs, once I get more familiar with the language
2014-04-19T12:00:53Z mathrick: elisp is not a good lisp
2014-04-19T12:01:11Z mathrick: it's a bad caricature of CL for most part
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2014-04-19T12:02:03Z s00pcan: well there's nothing like the real thing in all things, but it will at least keep me thinking in lisp more often
2014-04-19T12:02:23Z s00pcan: I don't have a real use for clisp yet, haven't gotten that far
2014-04-19T12:03:16Z mathrick: don't use "clisp" to mean CL, as clisp is the name of a specific common lisp implementation
2014-04-19T12:04:02Z s00pcan: ok
2014-04-19T12:04:11Z s00pcan: so far I have installed sbcl and clisp
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2014-04-19T12:22:51Z solidus_: how do i remove a method declaration? Specifically I have a :before method that i want to "undeclare"
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2014-04-19T12:25:23Z PuercoPop: solidus_: you can use the slime inspector on the method to remove it (C-s I #'name of the function)
2014-04-19T12:25:27Z PuercoPop: *method
2014-04-19T12:25:43Z stassats: M-x slime-inspect-definition
2014-04-19T12:25:55Z solidus_: cool...what keybinding removes it?
2014-04-19T12:26:23Z stassats: no keybinding
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2014-04-19T12:27:08Z solidus_: the *slime-inspector* is read only...what am i missing?
2014-04-19T12:27:35Z stassats: you're missing how to use slime inspector
2014-04-19T12:28:49Z solidus_: okay, im looking @ slime manual, nothing here about removing stuff using inspector
2014-04-19T12:29:12Z stassats: it should be self-evident
2014-04-19T12:29:55Z PuercoPop: it will show a menu with a buttom to remove it,
2014-04-19T12:30:21Z PuercoPop: (a list of all the methods for the generic function with a remove next to it)
2014-04-19T12:31:48Z solidus_: don't see no button or menu... what is your favorite image hosting site? (to demonstrate what i get)
2014-04-19T12:32:41Z PuercoPop: imgur?
2014-04-19T12:33:06Z PuercoPop: what (value?) are you inspecting?
2014-04-19T12:35:16Z ggole: Old version of slime?
2014-04-19T12:35:40Z stassats: that got to be a decade old or something
2014-04-19T12:36:20Z solidus_: C-c I => #'account-type => http://i.imgur.com/Dyd0U6P.png => can't do anything
2014-04-19T12:37:37Z stassats: probably no fancy inspector
2014-04-19T12:37:41Z solidus_: i installed slime from the emacs package manager
2014-04-19T12:37:52Z stassats: ensure (slime-setup '(slime-fancy))
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2014-04-19T12:38:45Z solidus_: stassats: thanks, that did the trick
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2014-04-19T12:40:33Z solidus_: this stuff is seriously blowing my mind. compared to developing in visual studio and C++ (my day job) this work environment is heaven
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2014-04-19T12:48:05Z solidus_: what is your exprience with performance? I'm really loving my experience with CL so far but I have a nagging feeling that all these nice stuff come at a very pricey performance cost...
2014-04-19T12:48:24Z stassats: it's not a very pricey cost
2014-04-19T12:49:38Z solidus_: for example, how would a web server in CL compared to one written in C++?
2014-04-19T12:50:05Z stassats: however you want to make it
2014-04-19T12:50:38Z ggole: The slime junk doesn't have much if anything to do with the quality of the implementation on the other end
2014-04-19T12:51:38Z theos: solidus_ hunchentoot+restas is quite impressive
2014-04-19T12:51:41Z ggole: And CL has useful tools for addressing performance when that issue comes up
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2014-04-19T12:56:42Z PuercoPop: solidus_: you should try M-x slime-who-calls/slime-who-references/etc for more mind blowing
2014-04-19T12:57:03Z stassats: or just M-?
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2014-04-19T13:00:45Z mathrick: solidus_: to be fair to Visual Studio, as tedious as it is as an editor, it's really spectacularly good as a debugger/inspector when you work with C#
2014-04-19T13:01:29Z mathrick: <solidus_> for example, how would a web server in CL compared to one written in C++? <-- http://john.freml.in/teepeedee2-c10k
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2014-04-19T13:02:03Z mathrick: (and that's before some further optimisations which bumped the performance to some 11.8kreq/s on the same core)
2014-04-19T13:02:33Z mathrick: making it the most performant server at the time at least, ex æquo another written in C
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2014-04-19T13:04:58Z solidus_: that is impressive
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2014-04-19T13:08:55Z solidus_: concerning debugging - anyway to visually do step-by-step debugging with slime/emacs?
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2014-04-19T13:09:10Z stassats: no
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2014-04-19T13:10:07Z pjb: You can use com.informatimago.common-lisp.lisp.stepper
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2014-04-19T13:10:46Z solidus_: will check that out
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2014-04-19T13:11:26Z pjb: (ql:quickload :com.informatimago.common-lisp.lisp.stepper)
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2014-04-19T13:12:42Z pjb: replace (:use "CL") by (:use "CL-STEPPER") in the code you want to step (reload/recompile it) and then:  (cl-stepper:step (some-expression) :trace) ; or :step or :run
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2014-04-19T13:17:26Z nydel: http://emergent-languages.org/Babel2/syntax_semantics_fcg.html this babel2 looks like it could be super useful
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2014-04-19T13:19:02Z mathrick: solidus_: there's *some* stepping support in slime, but AFAIK it only really works in SBCL, and even there it's often spotty and easy to confuse it. I have used it a bit however, and it's occasionally useful for inspection
2014-04-19T13:19:21Z mathrick: solidus_: consider also https://github.com/danlentz/printv
2014-04-19T13:23:02Z solidus_: pjb: the stepper works decently well, will surely help me. thanks!
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2014-04-19T13:24:10Z mathrick: nydel: I'm not exactly sure what it's for
2014-04-19T13:24:19Z nyef: Something that I've recently realized about myself is that there is only one sort of situation where I reach for a stepper, and that is when I'm trying to debug machine code.
2014-04-19T13:24:52Z pjb: It's interesting when you're trying to understand dynamically some unknown body of code too.
2014-04-19T13:25:30Z pjb: The downside, is that there's a lot of output. The upside is that nowadays, it doesn't kill trees.
2014-04-19T13:25:32Z solidus_: mathrick: this looks like macroexpand-1 on speed. cool stuff. almost too many new toys to play with :)
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2014-04-19T13:25:45Z nyef: I'm not sure if that's because I'm too used to not having a decent high-level debugger, or if it's the only tool that actually works at the low level, or what...
2014-04-19T13:26:43Z mathrick: solidus_: yeah, it's definitely lots of cool toys and speed
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2014-04-19T13:46:45Z louxiu: Hi all. After I installed zmq by (ql:quickload :zmq). How could I avoid to execute it everytime when I want to use it in a script?
2014-04-19T13:47:48Z H4ns: louxiu: if you write standalone scripts, it is best to dump an image with all libraries that your scripts need
2014-04-19T13:48:21Z H4ns: louxiu: http://deplinenoise.wordpress.com/2010/11/13/sbcl-core-saving/
2014-04-19T13:48:55Z H4ns: (for inspiration)
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2014-04-19T13:54:35Z louxiu`: H4ns: That's what I want. I will check it. Thanks
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2014-04-19T14:31:21Z progo: oh by the way, is it possible to update the core in its "standalone" form
2014-04-19T14:32:33Z progo: I suppose it is, by simply dumping the core, saving it over the original file.
2014-04-19T14:33:37Z pjb: exactly.
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2014-04-19T14:34:43Z nyef: Does that actually work, or can you run into trouble scribbling to an mmap()ed file?
2014-04-19T14:35:00Z pjb: Write a new file, and replace the old one.
2014-04-19T14:35:15Z pjb: On most systems you can't write over an executable being run anyways.
2014-04-19T14:35:22Z nyef: I suppose it'd be scribbling the same pages back down if it's the same process, but if you have it running multiple times that could still lead to badness...
2014-04-19T14:35:43Z nyef: Only applies if you're using an executable core.
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2014-04-19T16:24:08Z slyrus: so... where's that cl+ssl test suite I'm looking for?
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2014-04-19T17:44:00Z mathrick: dim: around?
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2014-04-19T18:28:39Z flip214: any useful ideas/comments re https://github.com/fukamachi/cl21/issues/61 - PUSH on vector being the same or reverse order than PUSH on LIST?
2014-04-19T18:30:36Z Bike: having push be backwards from vector-push seems off
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2014-04-19T18:34:30Z flip214: Bike: if I understand you correctly, PUSH and VECTOR-PUSH should do the same, ie. append elements at the end of a vector?
2014-04-19T18:34:52Z Bike: Yes. I mean, having push work on vectors seems weird anyway, just cos it's different from CL
2014-04-19T18:34:53Z flip214: Perhaps you can leave your opinion there, so that this can be fixed before it's too late....
2014-04-19T18:35:15Z Bike: oh this is that new CL thingie
2014-04-19T18:35:31Z Bike: well nobody will use newcl:push on vectors then, "problem solved"
2014-04-19T18:36:53Z ggole: Does it copy the vector with another element on the front? O_o
2014-04-19T18:36:54Z flip214: that's exactly the wrong result.
2014-04-19T18:36:54Z ggole: wtf
2014-04-19T18:37:22Z Bike: i wouldn't want push to work on non-lists anyway
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2014-04-19T19:03:07Z mathrick: is there an ebook version of Let Over Lambda?
2014-04-19T19:03:20Z mathrick doesn't do dead tree anymore
2014-04-19T19:05:33Z nyef: Do you do build-your-own-book-scanner?
2014-04-19T19:05:53Z mathrick: no, I just buy electronic versions of things
2014-04-19T19:06:01Z nyef: Ah.
2014-04-19T19:06:49Z mathrick: flip214: clojure does that with conj, and honestly it's really surprising and counter-intuitive that things reverse merely because a different container is used. There should be two types of operations, one where the specific shape of the result is guaranteed (but the optimal performance isn't), and one where it just does a vaguely defined operation such as "add to", and then explicitly doesn't guarantee the shape but makes promises about optimal perform
2014-04-19T19:06:49Z mathrick: ance for the given container type
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2014-04-19T19:25:36Z dim: mmm, lisp-magick or magicffi?
2014-04-19T19:26:07Z dim: MAGICFFI is a CFFI interface to libmagic(3), the file type determination library using “magic” numbers.
2014-04-19T19:26:08Z dim: oh. ok.
2014-04-19T19:28:41Z dim: Unable to load foreign library (LIB-MAGICK-WAND). Error opening shared object "libMagickWand.dylib": dlopen(libMagickWand.dylib, 10): image not found. [Condition of type CFFI:LOAD-FOREIGN-LIBRARY-ERROR]; when I have a looking-perfectly-valid /usr/local/lib/libMagickWand.dylib
2014-04-19T19:29:17Z dim: I guess (iolib.os:run-program '("convert" ...)) is going to be easier
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2014-04-19T20:03:56Z mathrick: dim: have you tried doing the same from C code? Does OSX need something like ldconfig?
2014-04-19T20:04:04Z mathrick: also, I repeat my poke
2014-04-19T20:04:15Z dim: poke?
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2014-04-19T20:04:44Z dim: well I will use run-program another time, I switched to doing something else entirely (still in lisp, currently in the SQL parts tho)
2014-04-19T20:04:52Z mathrick: yeah, I poked you a while ago asking if you were around
2014-04-19T20:05:20Z mathrick: dim: it's actually about el-get, so I guess #emacs is a better place
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2014-04-19T20:09:13Z dim: ok then ;-)
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2014-04-20T00:08:03Z Donations:#lisp- Freenode is in the process of upgrading its servers and those of its affiliates in order to keep up with increasing demand and to ensure that our FOSS partners and their projects can continue their great work.  A small dogecoin donation to our account at Canonical Ltd. will go a long way to keeping Freenode running smoothly.  Wallet: DTynGEnCSsvjekF4GGQVTPyXo5wfE78wb6
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2014-04-20T00:50:44Z crocket: hi
2014-04-20T00:50:56Z crocket: Is a lisp language going to win in the system programming?
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2014-04-20T01:13:04Z pjb: crocket: yes. As soon as you use it to write system programs.
2014-04-20T01:13:08Z pjb: When do you start?
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2014-04-20T01:18:21Z crocket: pjb: not sure
2014-04-20T01:19:36Z nyef: FWIW, it's fairly easy to write USB device drivers in SBCL.
2014-04-20T01:19:47Z nyef: Well, maybe not "fairly easy", but it's doable.
2014-04-20T01:20:26Z pjb: crocket: there's Movitz, to start writting your OS in CL.
2014-04-20T01:21:44Z crocket: I'm not sure clisp is a good language for system programming.
2014-04-20T01:22:06Z nyef: Well it wouldn't be, would it? All bytecodes, gcc-specific, and whatnot.
2014-04-20T01:22:32Z oGMo: crocket: doubtful. in theory, there's also something like c-amplify, which isn't "really" lisp, but gives you some of the features in C
2014-04-20T01:22:59Z nyef: There's also the question of what "system programming" actually means.
2014-04-20T01:23:04Z crocket: ok
2014-04-20T01:23:09Z oGMo: but nothing afaik is a great lisp for system programming, though i sure would love one
2014-04-20T01:23:24Z nyef: oGMo: Programming what sort of system?
2014-04-20T01:23:27Z crocket: 1) Writing kernel 2) writing system utilities 3) writing drivers and kernel modules.
2014-04-20T01:23:37Z oGMo: nyef: pedantry and handwaving aside :P
2014-04-20T01:24:32Z p_l: crocket: all possible, just needs the right runtime
2014-04-20T01:25:04Z nyef: oGMo: Meh. I'm saving the pedantry and handwaving for the newb/possible-subtle-troll. I've done user-mode USB drivers in SBCL, along with direct poking at my video card registers, plus an ill-fated attempt to run some amount of SBCL on bare hardware.
2014-04-20T01:25:20Z p_l: crocket: however, I strongly suspect you have a bit of preconceived notions of how certain things work in languages etc. (not surprising these days...)
2014-04-20T01:25:43Z pjb: crocket: better systems have been written in lisp than in C>
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2014-04-20T01:26:15Z pjb: crocket: if you don't believe it, go to ##c, don't lose your time and OUR time here.
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2014-04-20T01:28:56Z oGMo: nyef: well the real problem is there's nothing that has quite the level of control over memory management and layout and compilation you really want for something like a kernel or, really, even non-"system"-level stuff (e.g. a game)
2014-04-20T01:29:16Z p_l: oGMo: outside assembler ;)
2014-04-20T01:29:27Z oGMo: could definitely be a newbie or troll, but that is definitely something that the more work i've been doing in CL, the more I want
2014-04-20T01:29:47Z p_l: oGMo: interestingly, a bunch of such things were included in LispMs...
2014-04-20T01:30:00Z oGMo: i.e., a system lisp that is a viable substitute for C, yet also has CL on top for all the code CL brings to the table
2014-04-20T01:30:06Z pjb: oGMo: when you get this manual control, you get the HeartBleed bugs that come along this manual control!
2014-04-20T01:30:13Z oGMo: pjb: um no
2014-04-20T01:30:14Z pjb: Can't you earn anything?
2014-04-20T01:30:25Z pjb: lear
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2014-04-20T01:30:36Z nyef: As far as games go, talk to dto when he shows up. As far as memory management, layout, and compilation control goes, if you can specify quite what you want, it may well be possible.
2014-04-20T01:30:53Z oGMo: nyef: yes we've talked heh
2014-04-20T01:30:56Z nyef is in the process of persuading SBCL to do what he wants in a new environment.
2014-04-20T01:31:23Z oGMo: i've been working on a game in CL, it works, but it would be _so nice_ to have a lot more control
2014-04-20T01:31:38Z nyef: What sort of control do you want?
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2014-04-20T01:32:35Z nyef: Seriously, put together a wishlist of specifics, and we can assess what would be involved and how likely it would be to happen. And if we (as in SBCL maintainers) know there is interest in a particular direction, it's more likely to happen.
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2014-04-20T01:32:54Z oGMo: exactly the above .. the sort of precise memory control, and even near-assembler code generation you can't get without exploiting some really undocumented internal stuff in any given CL implementation
2014-04-20T01:33:22Z nyef: Again, you're being vague.
2014-04-20T01:33:24Z oGMo: i highly suggest writing a game in CL/GL, it will illuminate the desired features quickly
2014-04-20T01:33:30Z pjb: The point is that this is not needed to write systems.
2014-04-20T01:34:21Z oGMo: nyef: one huge thing is simply making it a lot easier to not cons
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2014-04-20T01:34:56Z oGMo: it's definitely possible to not, but at some point it becomes a huge headache
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2014-04-20T01:35:12Z nyef: As in, a full-on warning when you do something that would CONS, unless it involves a full-call?
2014-04-20T01:36:09Z oGMo: nyef: i mean an alternative that doesn't, particularly more ability to stack-allocate "deep" structures
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2014-04-20T01:37:14Z oGMo: more places than simply static-vectors for not copying between foreign would be another nice thing
2014-04-20T01:38:00Z nyef: Could I offer you the ability to create an allocation region that the GC would scavenge for roots but not deallocate anything in until you explicitly say that you're done with it?
2014-04-20T01:39:06Z oGMo: nyef: i'm not sure that's useful alone per se
2014-04-20T01:39:53Z nyef: (Basically, you'd establish it using WITH-ALLOCATION-REGION, and you have a guarantee that the GC wouldn't move it, wouldn't deallocate anything in it, and would scan it for roots unless you indicated that it was only unboxed storage.)
2014-04-20T01:40:25Z oGMo: i can already allocate and address foreign memory nicely, but integrating _other stuff_ (e.g., sb-cga) isn't really possible without really rewriting or forking it
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2014-04-20T01:41:08Z oGMo: nyef: hrm i'll take a look, just for future reference
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2014-04-20T01:41:29Z nyef: Oh, it doesn't exist yet, it's on my list of possible future GC hacks.
2014-04-20T01:41:32Z oGMo: ah
2014-04-20T01:46:24Z nyef: But you see where I'm going, right? When we get down to specific issues it starts becoming possible to find solutions that could be implemented.
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2014-04-20T01:48:16Z nyef: Another angle: Would it help if we added a declaration no-full-calls, within which it was a full ERROR if the compiler had to fall back to a full-call (thus guaranteeing that everything would at least be open-coded, or the file wouldn't compile properly)?
2014-04-20T01:48:48Z nyef: I don't know how easy or hard that would be, but it at least sounds plausible.
2014-04-20T01:49:12Z oGMo: nyef: for some .. more things being valid for dynamic-extent would probably help the most off the top of my head, but i'm not sure how hard that is. i'll keep some notes next time i run into stuff
2014-04-20T01:49:31Z oGMo: everything has a workaround of some variety, and i'm not really faulting CL for this, because that's not really what CL is about
2014-04-20T01:50:12Z nyef: At least closures are valid for D-X these days, right?
2014-04-20T01:51:32Z oGMo: dunno
2014-04-20T01:53:27Z nyef: The analysis to make it all work out was tricky, but if you declare a closure to be D-X on SBCL, the compiler will attempt not only to stack-allocate the closure, but to perform direct access to the closed-over stack frame for the variables instead of allocating explicit value cells.
2014-04-20T01:53:50Z oGMo: also something like SBCL brings a lot of complexity to the table which when tracking down bugs can make things difficult, can't run in gdb or glsldevil, et
2014-04-20T01:53:53Z oGMo: +c
2014-04-20T01:53:58Z nyef: ISTR there being some subsequent work to possibly enable specialized value cells.
2014-04-20T01:54:22Z oGMo: nyef: neat
2014-04-20T01:54:23Z nyef: Okay, that's true enough. gdb typically isn't that useful with SBCL.
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2014-04-20T01:56:09Z oGMo: also, tangentially, it would be nice if there were more graceful handling hitting the stack barrier doing recursion .. usually requires a restart :P there may be a more conservative setting i'm not using though
2014-04-20T01:57:18Z nyef: Yeah, that's usually a bad scene. Another one is hitting a SIGSEGV (aka lisp-memory-fault-error), for which most of the context information disappears before it's reported.
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2014-04-20T02:04:12Z oGMo: yeah .. tracking down memory issues can be pretty painful .. there's some interaction with SDL2 that seems to seg on SDL_Quit() even if i do nothing else
2014-04-20T02:05:09Z |3b|: nyef: main thing i want is bounded GC times, where the bound is somewhere below 10ms (10ms would be the "maybe could work for simple things" range)
2014-04-20T02:05:10Z nyef: I've got one right now where if I call fprintf() or vfprintf() from my SIGTRAP handler I catch a SIGSEGV from within libc.
2014-04-20T02:05:23Z oGMo: or rather, sbcl segs when _it_ quits, never before, and the code for SDL_Quit itself seems to do nothing unusual, etc
2014-04-20T02:05:52Z |3b|: oGMo: if you don't mind unportability, typed arrays in sbcl can be passed to FFI without allocating them specially
2014-04-20T02:06:15Z nyef: You'd have to pin the arrays explicitly if you're going to do that.
2014-04-20T02:06:29Z oGMo: |3b|: the GC won't run via another thread?
2014-04-20T02:06:31Z nyef: And on cheneygc backends, that suppresses GC entirely for the duration.
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2014-04-20T02:06:52Z oGMo: nyef: oh yeah that's another thing i ran into for something else heh .. pinning an object pins a page or whatnot
2014-04-20T02:06:56Z |3b|: sorry, pass them to FFI calls that won't store the pointer for later use after returning
2014-04-20T02:07:13Z nyef: Yes, pinning occurs on a per-page basis at this point.
2014-04-20T02:07:14Z oGMo: |3b|: i mean even during the call, but yeah
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2014-04-20T02:07:34Z |3b|: right, during the call you can pin them
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2014-04-20T02:08:03Z |3b|: as opposed to requiring a third-party lib to have allocated them specially
2014-04-20T02:08:14Z oGMo: in the case above i made a thread and wanted to tie its lifespan to an object, but .. not reliable, since the thread pinned the object except by luck
2014-04-20T02:09:12Z oGMo: |3b|: hrm i will look into that, would be useful for limiting copying of matrices
2014-04-20T02:09:27Z nyef: One of the things that I'm interested in in terms of GC is a non-stop-the-world parallel/incremental GC.
2014-04-20T02:09:50Z nyef: (stop-the-world becomes painful as you add more threads.)
2014-04-20T02:10:02Z |3b|: oGMo: i wouldn't bother for matrices, if you are copying enough to matter, you should be doing that on the GPU anyway
2014-04-20T02:10:21Z oGMo: i have no problem with nonportability at that point since making a game portable is less important than just making it work well
2014-04-20T02:11:06Z |3b| would try to keep portability to at least ccl, unless windows sbcl has gotten a lot better since last time i looked
2014-04-20T02:11:41Z |3b| remembers it being looked at, but not whether anyone managed to find/fix anythin
2014-04-20T02:11:57Z oGMo: |3b|: possibly .. i was actually thinking that most GLM stuff could be done right in a shader, why do it on the CPU at all .. boggling a bit that GL didn't actually just implement the basic stuff in those terms
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2014-04-20T02:12:29Z oGMo: |3b|: yeah i have not bothered doing much optimization to the point of nonportability yet
2014-04-20T02:12:29Z |3b|: no, you want to build matrices on CPU, but you aren't building very many
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2014-04-20T02:14:05Z oGMo: and practically, SBCL's GC is good enough i don't notice it triggering much anyway, or taking much time when it does .. the logging stuff is nice
2014-04-20T02:14:44Z |3b|: matrices are "few per frame" sort of thing, doing it on GPU would be horribly inefficient, either duplicating the work per vertex, or requiring copying data back to CPU and wasting most of the GPU while it calculates 1 matrix
2014-04-20T02:15:07Z oGMo: |3b|: ah fair
2014-04-20T02:15:16Z |3b|: yeah, for most things i wouldn't worry about it, VR is a bit different though :/
2014-04-20T02:15:29Z |3b|: delays matter when they make you sick :(
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2014-04-20T02:15:34Z oGMo: well it's not a problem til it's a problem
2014-04-20T02:16:10Z |3b|: it is a problem at ~ 8-10ms - however long it takes to draw a frame
2014-04-20T02:17:00Z oGMo: ~17ms for 60fps
2014-04-20T02:17:06Z oGMo: just under
2014-04-20T02:17:22Z |3b| supposes i need bounds on how often it GCs too, since lots of really fast GCs adding up would be bad too
2014-04-20T02:17:29Z oGMo: but yes 8ms of that being GC would be _bad_
2014-04-20T02:17:32Z |3b|: oGMo: right, which is too slow for 'good' vr :/
2014-04-20T02:17:50Z oGMo: |3b|: i thought the rift was 60fps .. is it 120?
2014-04-20T02:18:07Z oGMo: or 60hz, more accurately
2014-04-20T02:18:40Z |3b|: first dev kit was 60, 2nd is 75, i think most of the things i've seen say we want 100-120+
2014-04-20T02:19:19Z oGMo: damn that'll be tight .. 8ms frame is going to cut a lot, but it can certainly be done
2014-04-20T02:19:33Z oGMo: but not when your GC causes frame skipping ;)
2014-04-20T02:19:45Z |3b|: also, you have to draw 2x as many frames in that time :p
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2014-04-20T02:20:04Z oGMo: yeah
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2014-04-20T02:24:35Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2014-04-20T02:24:42Z nyef: Hello beach.
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2014-04-20T02:26:20Z beach: nyef: I suppose you know about my plan to have a small nursery with a sliding collector and an older generation using a concurrent collector, right?
2014-04-20T02:26:39Z nyef: ... nope, can't say that I do.
2014-04-20T02:27:10Z beach: I think that will bound the per-thread GC time to something small.
2014-04-20T02:27:38Z beach: And there will be no stop-the-world.
2014-04-20T02:28:19Z nyef: Do you have anything about this scheme that I could read?
2014-04-20T02:28:50Z beach: I might.  Otherwise, it is published stuff.  For ML though.  Hold on, I'll look...
2014-04-20T02:29:05Z nyef: Especially as regards how you make sure that all of your roots are covered when you flip the main heap?
2014-04-20T02:30:12Z beach: There is no flip involved.
2014-04-20T02:31:10Z beach: The nursery is per-thread so there is nothing special to do for that GC.
2014-04-20T02:31:29Z beach: The older generation does not move objects.
2014-04-20T02:31:38Z beach: So there is no problem there either.
2014-04-20T02:31:51Z nyef: Heap fragmentation?
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2014-04-20T02:32:40Z nyef: For that matter, live-set determination?
2014-04-20T02:32:41Z beach: Not in the case of SICL because every object has a 2-word header.  The "rack" can move freely.
2014-04-20T02:33:05Z beach: But Wilson et al showed that fragmentation is not a problem anyway.
2014-04-20T02:33:36Z beach: It is a problem invented by bad mathematical models between 1960 an 1990
2014-04-20T02:33:58Z beach: The basic idea is published by Doliguez et al.
2014-04-20T02:34:18Z beach: Chapter 25 of the SICL specification says a bit too.
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2014-04-20T02:37:11Z beach: Doliguez, Leroy, A concurrent generational garbage collector for multi threaaded implementation of ML
2014-04-20T02:37:19Z beach: POPL 1993.
2014-04-20T02:37:24Z beach: That's the basic stuff.
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2014-04-20T02:42:29Z nyef: Thanks, I'll see if I can find some of these later on.
2014-04-20T02:42:54Z beach: Sure.  I just wanted to let you know that there has been stuff done.
2014-04-20T02:43:19Z nyef: I don't exactly have time right now to dig into GC issues, unfortunately. /-:
2014-04-20T02:43:29Z beach: I know the problem.
2014-04-20T02:44:27Z beach: I designed an improvement to the traditional sliding-collector algorithm.
2014-04-20T02:45:15Z beach: My bet is that, although a sliding collector is more expensive than the traditional copying collector, it preserves the allocation order, so relative object age is more precise.
2014-04-20T02:46:22Z beach: And as Paul Wilson et al showed, "objects that are allocated together, die together." Hence, there is likely to be fewer and larger contiguous zones of dead objects.
2014-04-20T02:47:26Z beach: Sorry, I didn't mean to stop the discussion; only contribute to it. :(
2014-04-20T02:48:00Z nyef: Hrm. Yeah, I can believe that objects allocated together will tend to die together, because it's easy to allocate a bunch of temporary stuff holding intermediate results as you put together your final object, which hangs around for a while.
2014-04-20T02:48:31Z beach: Exactly.
2014-04-20T02:48:50Z beach: I recommend the survey paper by Paul Wilson et al.  He is a good writer too.
2014-04-20T02:49:16Z beach: He also has an allocator survey that is great reading.
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2014-04-20T02:56:30Z nyef: Okay, thank you for the references.
2014-04-20T02:56:50Z nyef: And I'm just about out of time for tonight.
2014-04-20T02:57:18Z beach: nyef: Sure.  Sleep well.
2014-04-20T02:57:38Z nyef: Thanks. Enjoy your... Easter Sunday, isn't it?
2014-04-20T02:57:52Z beach: Yes, but I am an atheist.
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2014-04-20T02:58:42Z nyef: Either way, enjoy your day.
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2014-04-20T03:35:07Z BitPuffin: o/
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2014-04-20T03:51:35Z BitPuffin: is there a way to do more things at compile time with sbcl? Like I know that you can declamate types in order to make things run faster but is there a way to do generics so that functions are still stacially typed but instantiated for all possible types?
2014-04-20T03:52:20Z Bike: no, because the generic function system is inherently dynamic. you can add and remove methods at runtime, for example. however there's lots of caching.
2014-04-20T03:52:47Z |3b|: you can get some of that with typecase, if you don't mind doing it by hand (or making a macro to do it by hand)
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2014-04-20T03:54:30Z |3b|: though if you actually meant "generic functions", that pretty much has to dispatch at runtime
2014-04-20T03:55:00Z BitPuffin: |3b|: well I'd probably wrap it in a macro just to make it less painful
2014-04-20T03:55:18Z BitPuffin: which is something I should have thought of the first time I got scared away because doing it all the time seemed like such a pain
2014-04-20T03:55:30Z BitPuffin: but the problem is that I can only think of how to do it for one type
2014-04-20T03:55:40Z BitPuffin: I'd like to make it type parameterized
2014-04-20T03:55:48Z BitPuffin: well actually maybe that wouldn't be so hard
2014-04-20T03:55:57Z BitPuffin: I guess I can't get type inference but still, not too shabby
2014-04-20T03:56:42Z joshe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2014-04-20T03:56:52Z BitPuffin: There should be ways to get as much as possible happening at compile time
2014-04-20T03:57:03Z BitPuffin: should be an interesting subject to delve into indeed
2014-04-20T03:57:12Z |3b|: with inlining and typecase, it can compile away all the other options if it can infer the type... though in that case you have to be careful it doesn't get too big when it can't
2014-04-20T03:57:54Z |3b|: you probably wouldn't want options for /all/ possibly types, but can be a good way to optimize a few common cases
2014-04-20T03:58:06Z BitPuffin: no but I mean the ones used in the software
2014-04-20T03:58:13Z BitPuffin: not all the possible ones obviously
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2014-04-20T03:58:25Z BitPuffin: but like if I call with a floating point number, instantiate for that
2014-04-20T03:58:27Z BitPuffin: otc
2014-04-20T03:58:28Z BitPuffin: etc*
2014-04-20T03:58:32Z |3b|: well, you can't tell which ones might be used in advance
2014-04-20T03:58:55Z BitPuffin: well you can if you compile it out as a binary can't you?
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2014-04-20T03:59:04Z BitPuffin: if you disable being able to modify at runtime
2014-04-20T03:59:09Z |3b|: only if you disable COMPILE, EVAL, etc
2014-04-20T03:59:24Z BitPuffin: say the modifying at runtime stuff is only for debug builds
2014-04-20T03:59:27Z Bike: so maybe on lispworks.
2014-04-20T03:59:30Z |3b|: i think some schemes do whole program optimization like that, not sure i've heard of any CLs though
2014-04-20T04:00:05Z BitPuffin: hmm
2014-04-20T04:00:08Z Bike: pretty sure stalin does, dunno if they've done things since it
2014-04-20T04:00:20Z BitPuffin: well sbcl is generally pretty good at making fast binaries
2014-04-20T04:00:22Z |3b|: yeah, that sounds like the one i was thinking of
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2014-04-20T04:00:45Z Bike: BitPuffin: i meant that in lispworks you can specify that an image lacks compile and eval (or rather, you ahve to lack compile, for legal reasons)
2014-04-20T04:00:52Z BitPuffin: it would bah
2014-04-20T04:01:06Z BitPuffin: wat
2014-04-20T04:01:09Z Bike: and i think once eval is gone it trims the image some
2014-04-20T04:01:10Z Bike: Wat?
2014-04-20T04:01:12Z BitPuffin: tha's not what I wanted to type
2014-04-20T04:01:12Z |3b|: right, sbcl has lots of good optimizations, and if you work with them it can do even better... don't think it does that particular thing though
2014-04-20T04:01:20Z BitPuffin: ah haha
2014-04-20T04:01:35Z BitPuffin: I had type "it would be" and then I erased a character and typed "ah"
2014-04-20T04:01:46Z Bike: the sbcl people sometimes talk about shaving a couple bytes from routines to shrink the image
2014-04-20T04:01:52Z BitPuffin: |3b|: what's sbcl written in?
2014-04-20T04:01:58Z Bike: mostly lisp
2014-04-20T04:02:07Z |3b|: yeah, mostly CL and some C
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2014-04-20T04:02:52Z BitPuffin: It would be really sweet if I could have debug builds which do let me to compile/eval etc to script behaviour and tweak it at runtime until it is perfect, and once it is, and I ship the binary, it would do the compile/eval stuff in to the binary since it would just be regular .cl files
2014-04-20T04:02:53Z |3b|: and things that are harder to categorize, like the DSLs it uses for defining assembly level stuff
2014-04-20T04:02:55Z zRecursive: Among CCL, clisp and sbcl,  sbcl indeed produces the biggest image though
2014-04-20T04:02:56Z BitPuffin: or .lisp
2014-04-20T04:03:03Z BitPuffin: if that makes any sense
2014-04-20T04:03:16Z BitPuffin: zRecursive: biggest image?
2014-04-20T04:03:29Z Bike: BitPuffin: it would be kind of neat but i don't think it's a major concern for most developers
2014-04-20T04:03:32Z zRecursive: after save-lisp-and-die
2014-04-20T04:03:41Z |3b|: if i remember correctly, sbcl internals (clos in particular) use the compiler at runtime, so it is a bit more work to remove runtime compilation than it would be in some CLs
2014-04-20T04:04:17Z BitPuffin: Bike: well for me it's a huge concern lol
2014-04-20T04:04:19Z Bike: might be able to make all the ctors ahead of time (pcl is hard to understand)
2014-04-20T04:04:22Z BitPuffin: Bike: for game development
2014-04-20T04:04:22Z Bike: BitPuffin: why so?
2014-04-20T04:04:39Z Bike: the other day a friend told me that a game he plays was 30 GB in disk size
2014-04-20T04:04:42Z BitPuffin: Bike: it would let me tweak scripts and for final build have them perform to their full potential
2014-04-20T04:05:05Z Bike: well speed and space are different.
2014-04-20T04:05:08Z |3b|: and if anything, it would probably be easiest to get what you want from sbcl by doing more runtime compilation than less :p
2014-04-20T04:05:14Z Bike: indeed
2014-04-20T04:05:18Z Bike: get yo jvm on
2014-04-20T04:05:22Z BitPuffin: lol
2014-04-20T04:05:24Z zRecursive: Bike: here stumpwm built with sbcl is > 40M
2014-04-20T04:05:28Z BitPuffin: get jiggy with it
2014-04-20T04:05:45Z BitPuffin: well is sbcl even the one that produces the fastest binaries?
2014-04-20T04:05:47Z Bike: zRecursive: sbcl's images are bigger than ccl's and clisp's generally, yes
2014-04-20T04:06:06Z zRecursive: but sbcl seems quicker
2014-04-20T04:06:06Z |3b|: though without a runtime keeping track of what could/should/has been specialized, it would be hard to do it well
2014-04-20T04:06:07Z Bike: BitPuffin: if you're concerned with optimization you should know that "produces the fastest binaries" is not very well defined :P
2014-04-20T04:06:12Z Bike: but yes, sbcl is pretty good
2014-04-20T04:06:35Z Quadrescence: BitPuffin, I wish Lisp had more static type/parameterization facilities
2014-04-20T04:06:41Z BitPuffin: Quadrescence: same here
2014-04-20T04:06:43Z Quadrescence: One day, one day
2014-04-20T04:06:52Z BitPuffin: well I generally use nimrod
2014-04-20T04:06:57Z BitPuffin: which is kinda lispy with it's macros
2014-04-20T04:07:10Z wheelsucker: gad, my stumpwm ~70MB
2014-04-20T04:07:11Z zRecursive: For a dynamic language, static is NOT natural anyway
2014-04-20T04:07:12Z Quadrescence: unfortunately macros aren't a sufficient condition for me to want to use it
2014-04-20T04:07:33Z BitPuffin: but since it's still young I tend to run in to show stopping compiler bugs
2014-04-20T04:08:02Z Bike: could be worse. could be rust.
2014-04-20T04:08:08Z BitPuffin: haha yes
2014-04-20T04:08:22Z BitPuffin: I dunno in a way it's hard to beat the simplicity of lisp
2014-04-20T04:08:39Z BitPuffin: just wish I could make it more statically typed :P
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2014-04-20T04:09:20Z BitPuffin: but I figured since there is quality compilers there should be ways to work with them to make ridiculously fast code
2014-04-20T04:09:37Z Bike: sbcl has plenty of type inference goodness, just not in the form of C++-generic functions, generally
2014-04-20T04:10:10Z BitPuffin: mm
2014-04-20T04:10:11Z |3b|: there are ways to get fast code with sbcl
2014-04-20T04:10:27Z BitPuffin: how does it compare to CCL?
2014-04-20T04:10:39Z Quadrescence: SBCL type inference isn't doing something very comparable to e.g. hindley milner
2014-04-20T04:10:48Z |3b|: CCL compiles must faster, but i'd expect the final result to run faster in sbcl
2014-04-20T04:10:52Z Bike: i didn't mean that it was.
2014-04-20T04:10:56Z BitPuffin: ah
2014-04-20T04:10:59Z |3b|: depending on how much it is optimized for one or the other
2014-04-20T04:11:02Z BitPuffin: and clisp?
2014-04-20T04:11:08Z BitPuffin: those are probably the viable ones
2014-04-20T04:11:14Z BitPuffin: since they are the open sauce ones
2014-04-20T04:11:16Z |3b| wouldn't expect much out of clisp, it is a bytecode VM
2014-04-20T04:11:28Z Quadrescence: to get fast code in SBCL you seem to need to inline, declare concrete types, etc. Get rid of any notion of generalization/abstraction/parameterization
2014-04-20T04:11:30Z |3b|: without all the fancy JIT stuff that makes stuff like java fast
2014-04-20T04:12:00Z |3b|: Quadrescence: don't need to get rid of /any notion/, just keep it off the fast path :)
2014-04-20T04:12:50Z Quadrescence: |3b|, wat? "Write your generic code but don't actually use it in your software engineering and instead replace it with specialized things"
2014-04-20T04:14:02Z BitPuffin: well you can wrap the type declamation stuff in sweet ass macros
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2014-04-20T04:14:26Z Bike: the word's 'declaration', just so you know
2014-04-20T04:14:32Z BitPuffin: oh
2014-04-20T04:14:33Z Quadrescence: If you want to do very cool things with types and macros, it gets hard quickly, since macros can't expand into declare forms
2014-04-20T04:14:36Z BitPuffin: well that's what I thought
2014-04-20T04:14:40Z BitPuffin: bet then I read a paper
2014-04-20T04:14:41Z |3b|: both words might apply, though they mean different things in CL
2014-04-20T04:14:43Z BitPuffin: which said declamate
2014-04-20T04:15:12Z |3b|: "declaration" for local stuff using DECLARE, "declamation" for global stuff using DECLAIM
2014-04-20T04:15:16Z Bike: never quite understood why you'd even want to expand into declare forms, seems like some confusion about what declare is
2014-04-20T04:15:45Z Quadrescence: Bike, I had a good example where I wanted to do C++-style templates, but couldn't because I couldn't muck around with declares
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2014-04-20T04:17:33Z BitPuffin: well I'm gonna see what I can find
2014-04-20T04:17:54Z Quadrescence: Bike, essentially I wanted to instantiate some notion of a "template" which had type arguments, but couldn't manage to do it because somewhere in the macroexpansion process, something was expanding into a DECLARE
2014-04-20T04:18:47Z BitPuffin: anyways anyone know if clisp produces faster binaries generally than sbcl?
2014-04-20T04:18:51Z BitPuffin: or is sbcl kinda king
2014-04-20T04:18:52Z Bike: i did a two minute mockup of the easy part of C++ templates once and didn't have that problem
2014-04-20T04:19:02Z Bike: BitPuffin: like |3b| said, it's a vm without a jit
2014-04-20T04:19:06Z BitPuffin: oh
2014-04-20T04:19:09Z BitPuffin: not good
2014-04-20T04:19:09Z Quadrescence: Bike, Oh, can I see
2014-04-20T04:19:11Z BitPuffin: :P
2014-04-20T04:19:16Z Bike: No, it was terrible
2014-04-20T04:19:31Z BitPuffin: I didn't notice because he did /me
2014-04-20T04:19:44Z Bike: But basically it just expanded into (defun foo (...) (declare (type ,bar ...)) ...)
2014-04-20T04:19:45Z BitPuffin: I tend to parse those as server messages sometimes
2014-04-20T04:20:10Z Bike: having lexical types would have made it "practically trivial"
2014-04-20T04:20:18Z BitPuffin: Bike: well that should make a significant difference in performance just that
2014-04-20T04:21:01Z beach: |3b|: Actually, global declarations are called "proclamations", whether made by PROCLAIM or DECLAIM.
2014-04-20T04:21:03Z BitPuffin: I don't care too much about C++ templates, just the generic part is fine
2014-04-20T04:21:07Z BitPuffin: which is basically what you did
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2014-04-20T04:21:11Z Quadrescence: Bike, now I'm curious what problem I actually ran into. Everything I think about this, it sounds so trivial. But then I do it and it doesn't work
2014-04-20T04:21:46Z Bike: it's just that, really, declare 'forms' aren't forms, they're part of the surrounding macro syntax
2014-04-20T04:21:52Z Bike: macro's*
2014-04-20T04:21:56Z Quadrescence: yes
2014-04-20T04:22:00Z Bike: (or special operator, whatever)
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2014-04-20T04:24:37Z |3b|: beach: yeah, but i'd expect people to understand "declamation" in that context
2014-04-20T04:24:59Z Bike: yeah, if i hadn't been reading it as declaim-related i wouldn't have mentioned it.
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2014-04-20T04:30:55Z Quadrescence: Anyone have ideas on how I might be able to detect that a macro expands into a top-level context?
2014-04-20T04:31:13Z Quadrescence: It would be nice to have something like (defmacro foo () `(ensure-toplevel ...)), or so
2014-04-20T04:31:24Z BitPuffin: what was that package manager for lisp called again?
2014-04-20T04:31:31Z Quadrescence: BitPuffin, quicklisp
2014-04-20T04:31:36Z BitPuffin: that's right
2014-04-20T04:31:38Z BitPuffin: thank you sir
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2014-04-20T04:33:57Z |3b|: eval-when might be able to distinguish top-level, not sure how to do so though
2014-04-20T04:34:29Z Bike: probably nothing you wouldn't go to hell for
2014-04-20T04:34:40Z |3b|: though seems like it would be as likely to be annoying as helpful
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2014-04-20T04:35:41Z Quadrescence: i will give $25 if someone can implement it portably
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2014-04-20T04:36:29Z Bike: well part of it is the whole compile-time-too thing, you'd practically have to have two different mechanisms, one for compiletimeruntime and one for compiletimemacroexpandforlatercompilingtime
2014-04-20T04:36:46Z BitPuffin: lol
2014-04-20T04:37:00Z Quadrescence: Bike, yes
2014-04-20T04:37:06Z BitPuffin: really tempting to create my own lisp dialect lol
2014-04-20T04:37:13Z Quadrescence: BitPuffin, do it
2014-04-20T04:37:13Z BitPuffin: don't wanna fall down that rabbit hole
2014-04-20T04:37:32Z BitPuffin: Quadrescence: it's probably not that easy
2014-04-20T04:37:36Z Quadrescence: it is!
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2014-04-20T04:37:58Z Bike: it really is pretty easy to make an unusable scheme interpreter, it gets harder later though
2014-04-20T04:38:05Z BitPuffin: well
2014-04-20T04:38:14Z BitPuffin: I'd make kind of a low level statically typd lisp lol
2014-04-20T04:38:28Z BitPuffin: kind of like the one that naighty dog created
2014-04-20T04:38:36Z Quadrescence: give it a shot
2014-04-20T04:38:48Z BitPuffin: maybe when I'm a better lisper
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2014-04-20T04:39:27Z BitPuffin: I guess if one should create his own programming language it should be a lisp
2014-04-20T04:39:49Z |3b|: making a lisp is easy, making a better lisp than the existing ones is hard (applies to both languages an implementations)
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2014-04-20T04:40:35Z BitPuffin: true
2014-04-20T04:40:42Z BitPuffin: I would probably not diverge much from CL
2014-04-20T04:40:43Z |3b|: i'd say forth qualifies too
2014-04-20T04:40:48Z BitPuffin: probably just remove a bunch of stuff
2014-04-20T04:40:56Z BitPuffin: and make it focus on static typing
2014-04-20T04:41:00Z Quadrescence: all that cruft in CL, eh?
2014-04-20T04:41:06Z BitPuffin: yea
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2014-04-20T04:41:15Z Bike: not diverge much for your low level, statically typed lisp, eh
2014-04-20T04:41:18Z BitPuffin: like the cadrdrdadradradradr
2014-04-20T04:41:30Z BitPuffin: lol
2014-04-20T04:41:31Z Bike: people pick the strangest examples of cruft.
2014-04-20T04:41:31Z |3b|: all that stuff that you don't see the point of yet but will be really annoyed when you find yourself wanting it later :p
2014-04-20T04:41:32Z BitPuffin: yes
2014-04-20T04:41:34Z BitPuffin: :)
2014-04-20T04:41:45Z BitPuffin: well
2014-04-20T04:41:53Z Quadrescence: BitPuffin, i wrote a statically typed scheme like implementation, but it was really a little ML with parentheses
2014-04-20T04:41:54Z BitPuffin: I'd rather add stuff later
2014-04-20T04:42:05Z BitPuffin: than to have potentially unnecessary things
2014-04-20T04:42:13Z BitPuffin: Quadrescence: well that's fine
2014-04-20T04:42:18Z BitPuffin: ML isn't bad
2014-04-20T04:42:23Z BitPuffin: it's just got a bad implementation
2014-04-20T04:42:24Z |3b|: some things affect the design though, like multiple values, conditions, numeric types
2014-04-20T04:42:27Z Bike: rust added 'procedural macros', i.e. macros written in rust, lately, clearly you should go for that
2014-04-20T04:42:42Z Quadrescence: BitPuffin, There are absolutely fantastic implementations of both Standard ML and OCaml
2014-04-20T04:42:45Z BitPuffin: honestly it would probably be mostly a nimrod but in lisp
2014-04-20T04:42:55Z BitPuffin: Quadrescence: yeah but not for paralellism
2014-04-20T04:42:59Z BitPuffin: or concurrency
2014-04-20T04:43:01Z BitPuffin: whatever
2014-04-20T04:43:06Z BitPuffin: threads
2014-04-20T04:43:08Z Quadrescence: they're not the same
2014-04-20T04:43:12Z BitPuffin: I know
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2014-04-20T04:43:36Z BitPuffin: bascially in ocaml you have to spawn a full new process etc
2014-04-20T04:43:49Z Quadrescence: yes, ocaml has a global lock
2014-04-20T04:43:52Z BitPuffin: but don't get me wrong
2014-04-20T04:43:57Z BitPuffin: I really like ocaml
2014-04-20T04:44:04Z BitPuffin: just that it could be better
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2014-04-20T05:00:58Z supercorn: (good (day))
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2014-04-20T05:10:55Z axion: is anyone familiar with postmodern? i'm trying to use a serial column type, but its having a slightly undesired effect
2014-04-20T05:12:00Z axion: when a insert statement fails and a row is not added, such as when a unique key already exists, it still increments the counter, such that the next item will not be sequential with the last item added
2014-04-20T05:12:17Z beach: Hello supercorn.
2014-04-20T05:12:58Z beach: supercorn: New here?
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2014-04-20T05:28:11Z beach: Let me take advantage of the relative silence to tell that I am still working on defining a two-level POSIX interface for CL: http://metamodular.com/POSIX-API/posix-api.html
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2014-04-20T05:34:16Z |3b|: axion: isn't that normal for postgresql?
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2014-04-20T06:31:26Z oio: any idea how to uninstall quick-lisp?
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2014-04-20T06:36:38Z beach: oio: Why would you want to do that?
2014-04-20T06:37:29Z beach: oio: Are you using SBCL?
2014-04-20T06:37:53Z oio: beach: having problems
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2014-04-20T06:38:02Z oio: :beach: use ccl
2014-04-20T06:38:32Z beach: oio: There must be some trace of quicklisp in the init file of CCL.
2014-04-20T06:38:56Z beach: oio: For SBCL it is ~/.sbclrc but I don't know about CCL.
2014-04-20T06:39:38Z beach: oio: And quicklisp stores all its stuff in ~/quicklisp
2014-04-20T06:40:28Z oio: beach: mm.
2014-04-20T06:41:17Z oio: beach: ok it works
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2014-04-20T06:54:22Z zacts: lo
2014-04-20T06:54:34Z beach: Hello zacts.
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2014-04-20T07:24:22Z CrazyWoods: Shall i use front proxy if i just use the web framework not the full web server?
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2014-04-20T07:25:10Z stassats: you still serve static content?
2014-04-20T07:26:09Z CrazyWoods: stassats: just a restful api server
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2014-04-20T07:26:47Z H4ns: CrazyWoods: is your question whether a frontend proxy would be helpful if you only serve restful api requests and no static content?
2014-04-20T07:27:11Z CrazyWoods: H4ns: yes
2014-04-20T07:27:14Z H4ns: CrazyWoods: if none of your content is cacheable, then probably no.
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2014-04-20T07:27:58Z CrazyWoods: H4ns: which framework do you suggest
2014-04-20T07:28:07Z stassats: i feel easier adding SSL through a reverse proxy, in light of the recent events
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2014-04-20T07:28:58Z H4ns: CrazyWoods: i don't use a web framework
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2014-04-20T07:29:26Z CrazyWoods: H4ns: what are you use lisp mainly for?
2014-04-20T07:29:49Z H4ns: stassats: in the end, there is openssl underneath which would be broken both in the frontend and in cl+ssl.  but you're right, it may be easier to set up.
2014-04-20T07:30:09Z stassats: H4ns: but in different processes
2014-04-20T07:30:23Z H4ns: CrazyWoods: mostly file processing, with web interfaces for control and monitoring.
2014-04-20T07:31:10Z CrazyWoods: H4ns: are there other language do you use except lisp?
2014-04-20T07:31:12Z H4ns: CrazyWoods: to implement my web interfaces, i use hunchentoot.
2014-04-20T07:31:28Z H4ns: CrazyWoods: javascript, clojure, shell scripting, c/c++, perl
2014-04-20T07:31:54Z CrazyWoods: H4ns: what's the different between lisp and other language?
2014-04-20T07:32:14Z H4ns: CrazyWoods: i like it best for its exploratory programming features.
2014-04-20T07:32:43Z H4ns: CrazyWoods: none of the other languages that i use can beat slime when it comes to interactive development.
2014-04-20T07:33:01Z H4ns: yeah, slime is not a language.
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2014-04-20T07:33:25Z CrazyWoods: H4ns: i see
2014-04-20T07:33:40Z CrazyWoods: H4ns: also its remote debug
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2014-04-20T08:28:51Z hitecnologys: stassats: I've recently been playing with your mpd thing. When was the last time when you actually used it?
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2014-04-20T08:29:14Z stassats: a few days ago
2014-04-20T08:29:19Z hitecnologys: And it works fine?
2014-04-20T08:29:25Z stassats: sure does
2014-04-20T08:29:37Z hitecnologys: And the code you run matches the code on GH?
2014-04-20T08:30:18Z stassats: almost
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2014-04-20T08:32:25Z stassats: it only added an export
2014-04-20T08:32:53Z hitecnologys: I tried running it but it complained about missing slot in TRACK class: LAST-MODIFIED. I've added it and it finally let me get playlist. Now I'm trying to figute out if it's my fault or it's the code.
2014-04-20T08:33:47Z stassats: ah, that's what last-modified was for, i just reverted that change
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2014-04-20T08:34:44Z hitecnologys: I see.
2014-04-20T08:35:52Z stassats: and mpd protocol changed since when i wrote it, so somethings are missing
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2014-04-20T08:38:47Z stassats: hitecnologys: ok, added it back and committed
2014-04-20T08:39:13Z stassats: and i wouldn't probably use INTERNIG of keywords nowadays
2014-04-20T08:39:23Z hitecnologys: stassats: nice, wait a sec, I'll try it.
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2014-04-20T08:41:47Z hitecnologys: Works.
2014-04-20T08:42:02Z stassats: if you are connecting to a malicious remote mpd, maybe it's not that good
2014-04-20T08:43:11Z hitecnologys: Yeah, interning symbols may not be the best idea, I guess.
2014-04-20T08:43:38Z stassats: not like i care, it works for me
2014-04-20T08:44:31Z hitecnologys: Neither do I. Works for me too.
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2014-04-20T09:45:44Z zorbita: lisp is awesome!
2014-04-20T09:46:27Z axion: welcome aboard, zorbita
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2014-04-20T10:29:53Z drdo: Hmm, does sbcl have generic arithmetic and friends functions?
2014-04-20T10:30:07Z stassats: no
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2014-04-20T10:30:40Z drdo: stassats: Just because it didn't happen or might it have optimization consequences?
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2014-04-20T10:31:36Z stassats: it's not standard and it does have performance consequences
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2014-04-20T10:41:23Z Krystof: if a patch with basically performance-neutral impact came, we'd certainly consider it
2014-04-20T10:41:26Z Krystof: it's a lot of work, though
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2014-04-20T11:12:49Z jackdaniel likes very much this englightment feeling when he discovers something new for himself in cl (:
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2014-04-20T11:13:11Z jackdaniel: like anaphoric macros in this particular case
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2014-04-20T11:15:23Z stassats: it's not in cl, though
2014-04-20T11:15:52Z stassats: save for a bit of loop syntax, but it's not really comparable
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2014-04-20T11:16:39Z jackdaniel: discovers via cl, to be more clear ;)
2014-04-20T11:17:14Z stassats: and i happen to strongly dislike anaphoric macros
2014-04-20T11:18:41Z jackdaniel: it seem very elegant to me
2014-04-20T11:19:35Z jackdaniel: http://ix.io/bNV my humble first anaphoric macro
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2014-04-20T11:26:32Z francogrex: to convert -16 to binary it doesn't go with (format t "~b" -16) does it?
2014-04-20T11:27:03Z jackdaniel: francogrex: in fact it does fine
2014-04-20T11:27:05Z stassats: you can't convert it
2014-04-20T11:27:16Z jackdaniel: it prints like -1000
2014-04-20T11:27:18Z stassats: it's already in binary (mot likely)
2014-04-20T11:27:20Z jackdaniel: +0
2014-04-20T11:28:00Z francogrex: -16 is 11111111111111111111111111110000 in binary << is this an imbecility (I saw online)
2014-04-20T11:28:03Z stassats: if you mean you want to print it in binary representation, then you need to think about whether you want to represent it as two's complement, and how wide
2014-04-20T11:28:23Z stassats: (format t "~b" (ldb (byte 64 0) -16)) => 1111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111110000
2014-04-20T11:28:40Z francogrex: stassats: ok then that's it
2014-04-20T11:29:02Z francogrex: (byte 32 0) but very nice
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2014-04-20T11:30:32Z jdz: jackdaniel: i've found that "magic" variables popping up into existence leads to a very unreadable code
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2014-04-20T11:33:16Z jackdaniel: jdz: im aware of that inconvenience, thats why anaphoric macros aren't widely used i think. i still dont know if i like it or not, yet its very interesting idea to write yours *this* operator
2014-04-20T11:33:20Z jackdaniel: or its counterpart
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2014-04-20T11:37:00Z jackdaniel: im considering using special character to proceed these magic variables, to know they are from macro, like ^variable-name
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2014-04-20T11:37:56Z stassats: i've seen that somewhere
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2014-04-20T11:47:06Z jdz: jackdaniel: i'd just use LOOP; consider, for instance, whether your its-no variable should start from 0 or 1 (it most probably will differ depending on a circumstance)
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2014-04-20T12:21:36Z jackdaniel: another flaw here is using its-no as is, its volunterable for changing value from body. http://ix.io/bNZ - corrected
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2014-04-20T12:50:27Z jdz: all the trouble just to avoid a simple and explicit (loop for it in menu for its-no upfrom 1 do ...)?
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2014-04-20T12:51:57Z jdz: i can appreciate you doing this as a learning exercise, but i'd just hate to see it in real code
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2014-04-20T12:56:28Z jackdaniel: jdz: it is in fact learning experience (: and im making familiar myself with a-macros
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2014-04-20T12:57:26Z jackdaniel: and back to loop, its syntax is confusing me a lot, i think it becomes more obvious with experience as well
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2014-04-20T13:15:31Z jdz: jackdaniel: have you looked at iterate?
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2014-04-20T13:16:00Z jdz: jackdaniel: should have make a very good learning experience
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2014-04-20T14:25:14Z mathrick: jackdaniel: look at ITERATE, it's what LOOP should have been: http://common-lisp.net/project/iterate/
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2014-04-20T16:16:52Z BitPuffin: http://youtu.be/HM1Zb3xmvMc I love this song xD
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2014-04-20T16:21:13Z pjb: BitPuffin: There's #lispcafe for this kind of messages.
2014-04-20T16:21:31Z BitPuffin: pjb: ah I didn't know, sorry :)
2014-04-20T16:22:11Z CrazyWoods: why defun double function in sbcl are likely to cause Lock on package SB-ALIEN?
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2014-04-20T16:23:48Z BitPuffin: pjb: hmm are you sure? It doesn't describe much like that in the topic
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2014-04-20T16:34:02Z BitPuffin: what's the difference between nil and 'nil, consing with both of them yields the same result
2014-04-20T16:35:50Z pjb: the difference is in the path taken in their evaluation.
2014-04-20T16:36:54Z BitPuffin: hm
2014-04-20T16:37:05Z pjb: (defun eval (expr env) (cond ((symbolp expr) (get-variable-value expr env)) ((atom expr) expr) ((eq 'quote (first expr)) (second expr)) …))
2014-04-20T16:37:18Z pjb: with nil, it takes the first branch, with 'nil it takes the third branch.
2014-04-20T16:38:02Z pjb: Since CL:NIL is defined to be constantly bound to CL:NIL, if nil is read as CL:NIL, and if #\' is a reader macro that reads as (CL:QUOTE …) then both evaluate to the same thing.
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2014-04-20T16:39:28Z BitPuffin: ha
2014-04-20T16:39:40Z BitPuffin: so 'nil requires extra processing
2014-04-20T16:39:43Z BitPuffin: compared to nil
2014-04-20T16:39:56Z pjb: Not necessarily.
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2014-04-20T16:40:08Z pjb: eval can be implemented much differently.
2014-04-20T16:40:16Z BitPuffin: oh
2014-04-20T16:40:19Z pjb: It can use a compiler, it can order the branches differently.
2014-04-20T16:40:24Z BitPuffin: is that the official impl?
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2014-04-20T16:40:27Z kpreid: that "extra processing" is the sort of premature optimization you should avoid wasting time thinking about
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2014-04-20T16:40:40Z pjb: BitPuffin: read clhs
2014-04-20T16:40:41Z BitPuffin: kpreid: true, I was just thinking theoretically
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2014-04-20T16:41:17Z pjb: clhs chapter 3
2014-04-20T16:41:24Z BitPuffin: pjb: I probably will, right now I'm reading lol
2014-04-20T16:41:35Z kpreid: well, if I were writing an totally naive implementation, 'nil would probably be faster, because it's a constant that's right there in the code, and not indirecting through a variable.
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2014-04-20T16:41:47Z BitPuffin: pjb: I'll keep the tab open
2014-04-20T16:42:27Z BitPuffin: kpreid: well, if nil is a constant variable that is always pointing to CL:NIL they should be the same
2014-04-20T16:42:34Z BitPuffin: is it possible to set nil to be something else?
2014-04-20T16:42:40Z BitPuffin: like (setf nil "foo")
2014-04-20T16:42:44Z pjb: nil could be read as something else.
2014-04-20T16:42:55Z pjb: It's not defined what (setf cl:nil "foo") means.
2014-04-20T16:42:57Z BitPuffin: Compile-time error:
2014-04-20T16:42:59Z kpreid: BitPuffin: yes, they will always be the same value -- I was talking about performance, since you asked
2014-04-20T16:42:59Z BitPuffin:   NIL is a constant and thus can't be set.
2014-04-20T16:43:05Z pjb: (shadow 'nil) (defvar nil t) nil --> t
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2014-04-20T16:43:28Z BitPuffin: kpreid: yeah but I mean in terms of performance they can both be reduces to the same thing at compile time
2014-04-20T16:43:37Z pjb: CL:NIL is a constant.  NIL is can be read as anything, depending on CL:*READTABLE* and CL:*PACKAGE*.
2014-04-20T16:43:40Z BitPuffin: kpreid: altohugh if you are interpreting then I guess nil should be slower
2014-04-20T16:44:02Z kpreid: BitPuffin: right. and in any sensible compiler, both will compile to exactly the same thing
2014-04-20T16:44:11Z BitPuffin: kpreid: exactly
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2014-04-20T16:48:18Z pjb: BitPuffin: there are conotations: use nil for a false boolean. 'nil for the symbol named "NIL" in the "CL" package.  () for an empty source list.  '() for an empty data list.
2014-04-20T16:48:34Z pjb: All read-and-evaluate to the same thing.
2014-04-20T16:51:14Z BitPuffin: pjb: I see, isn't there a regular false boolean though?
2014-04-20T16:51:27Z kpreid: nil _is_ the regular false boolean
2014-04-20T16:51:38Z BitPuffin: ah
2014-04-20T16:51:40Z BitPuffin: sweet
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2014-04-20T17:12:26Z pjb: BitPuffin: notice that for any self evaluating value, you also have the choice to quote it in an evaluated place:  (+ '42 (length '"Hello")) --> 47
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2014-04-20T17:15:28Z ggole: Almost: that's not true of lambdas.
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2014-04-20T17:15:58Z ggole: (You could quibble about whether they are self-evaluating, though.)
2014-04-20T17:16:00Z BitPuffin: hm
2014-04-20T17:16:07Z kpreid: ggole: Exactly.
2014-04-20T17:16:27Z pjb: There's no quibble. Self evaluation is the second branch.
2014-04-20T17:16:35Z kpreid: the evaluation of a lambda expression is a _function_
2014-04-20T17:16:47Z pjb: It's not self evaluating.
2014-04-20T17:16:48Z kpreid: they are very different, because the latter has an environment and the former does not
2014-04-20T17:16:55Z pjb: A _function_ is self evaluating.
2014-04-20T17:17:16Z pjb: (funcall #.(function +) 1 2) --> 3
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2014-04-20T17:17:34Z pjb: You can quote it: (funcall '#.(function +) 1 2) --> 3
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2014-04-20T17:21:32Z pnpuff: Is correct implement a list function as a a part of eval?
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2014-04-20T17:22:43Z pjb: Your question is incomprehensible.
2014-04-20T17:24:00Z pnpuff: I mean using something like:  (defun (eval expr env) ...((list) ((lambda (x) x) (cdr expr))  ..)
2014-04-20T17:24:15Z oGMo: still incomprehensible
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2014-04-20T17:57:52Z mathrick: ggole: fun fact: (lambda ...) is actually defined to be a macro expanding to #'(lambda ...) (which is a special form)
2014-04-20T17:59:31Z nyef: Another fun fact: The macro was originally removed from the standard as not being necessary, and re-added for ISLisp compatibility (at least, I think it was ISLisp. Some other lisp standard, at least).
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2014-04-20T18:03:48Z solidus_: where can i find documentation regarding the complexity of various operations? and is it defined in the standard?
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2014-04-20T18:11:19Z pnpuff: Is correct "implement" a list function as a part of the evaluator of a small lisp interpreter?     (defun (eval expr env) ...((list) ((lambda (x) x) (evlis (cdr expr) env)))  ..)
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2014-04-20T18:14:29Z pnpuff: Why my question is incomprehensible?
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2014-04-20T18:17:32Z nyef: "This sentence no verb."
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2014-04-20T18:18:50Z oio: any idea how to get emacs company slime completion by frecuency of typing?
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2014-04-20T18:21:48Z jackdaniel: jdz_ mathrick : thanks, ill surely look into iterate
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2014-04-20T18:21:53Z Bike: solidus_: computational complexity? i don't think there are any standard operations that have to have any particular complexities, no
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2014-04-20T18:23:03Z pjb: solidus_: it's not defined in general.  Very few operations have some complexity boundaries defined.  An implementation is free to use any complexity it wants.
2014-04-20T18:23:55Z pjb: solidus_: so for example, you could have an implementation on a 8-bit processor, where (symbol-name x) would take two hours.
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2014-04-20T18:24:26Z pjb: pnpuff: "
2014-04-20T18:24:36Z Bike: "very few"? like which?
2014-04-20T18:24:37Z pjb: list function" what does that mean?
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2014-04-20T18:25:01Z pjb: Bike: the algorithms of some operations are given.  For example, the lisp reader.
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2014-04-20T18:25:08Z Bike: oh, yeah.
2014-04-20T18:25:09Z pjb: Some operations are defined in terms of other operations.
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2014-04-20T18:25:44Z pjb: And there are some specifications on the number of times :test and :key functions are called for sequence operations.
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2014-04-20T18:26:37Z pjb: pnpuff:  (defun (eval expr env) ...((list) ((lambda (x) x) (evlis (cdr expr) env)))  ..) is meaningless, because there are no valid forms in the body.
2014-04-20T18:26:54Z pjb: ((list) ((lambda (x) x) (evlis (cdr expr) env))) is not a valid form.  We cannot assume anything from ...
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2014-04-20T18:27:33Z pjb: pnpuff: If you write (cond … ((list) …) …) then we know it's a cond form, and we can deduce the first and last … are cond clauses, and the second … is a list of lisp expressions.
2014-04-20T18:27:40Z pjb: But as you wrote it, it's meaningless.
2014-04-20T18:27:45Z pnpuff: ok ok
2014-04-20T18:27:58Z pjb: Also, since (list) returns nil, it's a clause that's never taken: dead code. So your question still doesn't make sense.
2014-04-20T18:28:58Z pnpuff: I get rightly nil  from (list)
2014-04-20T18:29:50Z mathrick: nyef: really? So we'd be required to write #'(lambda ...) every time?
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2014-04-20T18:30:08Z Bike: yes, and lots of old code does so
2014-04-20T18:30:18Z pjb: mathrick: "and re-added for ISLisp compatibility"
2014-04-20T18:30:48Z mathrick: pjb: that's why "'d"
2014-04-20T18:31:19Z pjb: Ok.  So yes.  Or you could define your own macro.
2014-04-20T18:31:24Z nyef: Surely that calls for a 'd've?
2014-04-20T18:31:38Z pjb: Anyways, it wouldn't be all the time, since ((lambda (x) x) 42) is not a macro call.
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2014-04-20T18:32:28Z Bike: weren't lambda forms also an islisp thing?
2014-04-20T18:32:49Z pjb: Why do you talk in the past tense?
2014-04-20T18:32:57Z pjb: http://christian.jullien.free.fr/
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2014-04-20T18:36:47Z pnpuff: pjb: right, Im doing:    (defun (eval expr env) ... (case (car expr)  ... ((list) ((lambda (x) x) (evlis (cdr expr) env)))  ...))
2014-04-20T18:37:13Z pjb: cl:list is defined as a function. An implementation can open code any function.
2014-04-20T18:37:30Z pjb: ((lambda (x) x) anything) is equivalent to (values anything).
2014-04-20T18:38:04Z Bike: pjb: i meant, weren't lambda forms similarly added for islisp compatibility, which would mean there wasn't a time when lambda forms existed but not the lambda macro
2014-04-20T18:38:24Z pjb: (funcall 'list 1 2 3) (funcall (function list) 1 2 3) (funcall (symbol-function 'list) 1 2 3) (funcall (fdefinition 'list) 1 2 3) and apply variants.
2014-04-20T18:38:51Z pjb: Bike: I don't know.
2014-04-20T18:39:01Z Bike: i suppose it's not importnat
2014-04-20T18:44:51Z mathrick: nyef: "would be", seems fine
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2014-04-20T18:53:33Z jackdaniel: what library would you suggest for validating data? like "integer between 1 and 5"? I've found cl-data-format-validation
2014-04-20T18:53:43Z jackdaniel: and screamer (which is way more than that)
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2014-04-20T18:55:21Z Bike: (typep foo '(integer 1 5))? i don't understand what you're asking for
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2014-04-20T18:59:15Z jackdaniel: Bike: i didin't know about this construct. i was wondering how to validate data from user. thanks
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2014-04-20T19:00:08Z Bike: i mean, why not (and (integerp foo) (<= 1 foo 5)), either
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2014-04-20T19:04:34Z jackdaniel: hmm, i was thinking about more general way, but now i don't really see how it could look like or if i really need one
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2014-04-20T19:06:47Z oleo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeK979aqqqc
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2014-04-20T19:07:08Z ajf: This is more a general Lisp question:
2014-04-20T19:07:21Z ajf: What is label, and why do you need to quote a lambda to define a named function with it
2014-04-20T19:07:48Z Bike: Do you mean the LABELS special form?
2014-04-20T19:07:54Z Bike: and i have no idea w hat you mean by the second clause.
2014-04-20T19:07:57Z stassats: what kind of general lisp is that?
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2014-04-20T19:08:15Z stassats: (there's no such thing, by the way)
2014-04-20T19:08:34Z ajf: Well
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2014-04-20T19:09:21Z ajf: ...nevermind
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2014-04-20T19:14:32Z ajf: OK, is there a difference between (list 1 2) and ‘(1 2) ?
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2014-04-20T19:15:05Z Bike: the latter is literal data which can be coalesced by the compiler and must not be modified by a program, while the former is constructed at runtime probably
2014-04-20T19:15:09Z nyef: Yes. The LIST call is guaranteed to be freshly consed, the quoted (backquoted) form can share structure.
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2014-04-20T19:15:40Z ajf: I see
2014-04-20T19:15:46Z ggole: The args to LIST are also evaluated
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2014-04-20T19:15:53Z ajf: right
2014-04-20T19:15:55Z ggole: Although that doesn't matter in this case.
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2014-04-20T19:51:55Z ajf: So, I got “label” earlier from reading about the primitive bits needed to make a Lisp dialect. It’s usually called “define” these days.
2014-04-20T19:52:44Z Bike: are you talking like, lisp 1.5? things are rather different nowadays, you know?
2014-04-20T19:52:53Z ajf: I realise
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2014-04-20T19:53:31Z rszeno: ajf, scheme use define not lisp
2014-04-20T19:53:35Z Bike: you'd have to 'quote the lambda' for similar reasons to the lambda macro discussion a few minutes ago
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2014-04-20T19:54:17Z ajf: rszeno: What does common lisp use?
2014-04-20T19:54:34Z Bike: defun
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2014-04-20T19:54:54Z rszeno: defun
2014-04-20T19:54:56Z ajf: what about for non-functions?
2014-04-20T19:54:58Z Bike: neither defun or define use "quoted lambda terms", though
2014-04-20T19:55:03Z Bike: defvar, defparameter
2014-04-20T19:55:10Z ajf: ah
2014-04-20T19:55:33Z Bike: here http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Technical-Issues.html
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2014-04-20T19:57:07Z Bike: this is the sort of mistake you're going to make if you think about nonexistent 'general lisp'
2014-04-20T19:57:17Z ajf: right
2014-04-20T19:57:25Z pjb: ajf: the LISP 1.5 manual is available on softwarepreservation.  Use google.
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2014-04-20T19:57:44Z stassats: but does admiral lisp exist?
2014-04-20T19:57:57Z ajf: I prefer colonel lisp
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2014-04-20T20:43:04Z guaqua```: i wonder if someone's started working on a lisp-implementation of ssl after the heartbleed vulnerability?
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2014-04-20T21:00:52Z mathrick: guaqua: I'm not quite sure why exactly now, other than the obvious "only C allows you to leak memory freely, lol"
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2014-04-20T21:01:11Z guaqua: :)
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2014-04-20T21:03:43Z mathrick: there's Ironclad, though it doesn't implement everything you'd need for an SSL layer yet, from what I understand
2014-04-20T21:03:59Z mathrick: also writing a full SSL suite is hard work and very easy to get wrong
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2014-04-20T21:09:47Z nisstyre: mathrick: you need some form of symmetric crypto, a signing algorithm, and a key exchange method at least
2014-04-20T21:09:52Z guaqua: yeah. ironclad, to my knowledge handles "just" bits and pieces of the whole puzzle. was mostly just interested has any bipolar lisp programmer decided to write their own after the vulnerability was exposed :)
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2014-04-20T21:10:01Z nisstyre: and probably some other things I'm forgetting
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2014-04-20T22:07:04Z slyrus: wait... I thought that babel2 thing was an elaborate april fools joke
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2014-04-20T22:11:12Z wilfredh: if I'm looping across a string with the loop macro, what's the easiest way to keep track of the index too? I'm hoping for something like Python's `for index, value in enumerate(some_list):`
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2014-04-20T22:11:51Z pjb: for index
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2014-04-20T22:13:18Z pjb: wilfredh: do you know the clhs?
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2014-04-20T22:14:06Z wilfredh: the hyperspec? I haven't really looked at it, just using slime's apropos to poke around
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2014-04-20T22:16:25Z pjb: In some implementations, (describe 'cl:loop) or (documentation 'cl:loop 'function) may give more information or even a link to the clhs page, but in general, you might better go directly to the source:
2014-04-20T22:16:27Z pjb: clhs loop
2014-04-20T22:16:27Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_loop.htm
2014-04-20T22:18:03Z wilfredh: ah, thanks. `(loop for char across "abc" for index from 0` did the trick. I naively assumed it would give me all possible combinations of each iterator rather than iterating them in step
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2014-04-20T22:19:10Z pjb: Nope, you'd need embedded loops for that.
2014-04-20T22:19:22Z pjb: You can have a lot of clauses running in parallel.
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2014-04-21T00:37:38Z BitPuffin: does restas support other SCMs than git+
2014-04-21T00:37:41Z BitPuffin: err
2014-04-21T00:37:43Z BitPuffin: I mean quicklisp
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2014-04-21T00:39:58Z Bike: You mean to replace "restas" with "quicklisp"?
2014-04-21T00:40:26Z BitPuffin: yup
2014-04-21T00:40:43Z BitPuffin: and replace + with ?
2014-04-21T00:40:47Z Bike: quicklisp doesn't have anything to do with SCMs
2014-04-21T00:41:08Z BitPuffin: https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects/blob/master/restas/source.txt
2014-04-21T00:41:10Z Bike: well, i guess Xach has to figure out a source if you're not using git
2014-04-21T00:41:13Z BitPuffin: looks like it uses it to fetch
2014-04-21T00:41:37Z Bike: no, that's on xach's end, quicklisp will download it from xach's aws, i think
2014-04-21T00:43:20Z BitPuffin: oh
2014-04-21T00:43:25Z BitPuffin: I don't actually know how it is architected
2014-04-21T00:43:41Z BitPuffin: one would think it would leverage github rather than hosting it on aws tho
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2014-04-21T00:44:24Z BitPuffin: anyways
2014-04-21T00:44:33Z BitPuffin: my question is "will it matter if I use hg?"
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2014-04-21T00:49:42Z nyef: ... "why would you use hg when we have git?"
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2014-04-21T00:51:32Z BitPuffin: nyef: because I like hg better because it is better
2014-04-21T00:52:29Z nyef: I suppose it makes sense for quicklisp to work with quicksilver, but I don't know if it's the kind of sense that fits reality. That'd be a question for Xach.
2014-04-21T00:52:29Z Bike: BitPuffin: well there's https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects/blob/master/blackthorn-engine-3d/source.txt
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2014-04-21T00:53:16Z BitPuffin: Bike: ah well there we go then cool
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2014-04-21T01:26:44Z BitPuffin: wut
2014-04-21T01:26:46Z BitPuffin: "The eql command is similar to the eq command, but unlike eq, it also handles comparisons of numbers and characters"
2014-04-21T01:26:55Z BitPuffin: tried comparing numbers and characters using eq, it worked
2014-04-21T01:27:01Z Bike: it's impl-dependent
2014-04-21T01:27:15Z Bike: but try (eq (* 2 most-positive-fixnum) (* 2 most-positive-fixnum))
2014-04-21T01:27:20Z Bike: point is that's /allowed/ to be false.
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2014-04-21T01:29:25Z BitPuffin: that's weird
2014-04-21T01:29:28Z BitPuffin: how come that works?
2014-04-21T01:29:34Z BitPuffin: I mean doesn't work
2014-04-21T01:29:51Z Bike: because the implementation defined it so.
2014-04-21T01:30:17Z Bike: likely it has eq as pointer comparison, and then the code allocates two separate bignums
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2014-04-21T01:33:14Z BitPuffin: gotcha
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2014-04-21T01:35:20Z |3b|: also, numbers don't have "identity", is a 1 in register a, the same object as a 1 in register b?
2014-04-21T01:36:19Z |3b|: whichever answer you picked, is it still true if the values in A and B were loaded from different memory addresses? from the same address?
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2014-04-21T01:36:48Z Zhivago: Numbers are identities.
2014-04-21T01:37:06Z Zhivago: Which is what EQL compares.
2014-04-21T01:37:31Z Zhivago: They may be represented by different objects, which is where EQ may differ from EQL.
2014-04-21T01:38:06Z Zhivago: Always use EQL for identity comparison, unless you can prove that EQ will be correct.
2014-04-21T01:39:13Z nyef: And EQ will generally be correct if you're not dealing with numbers.
2014-04-21T01:39:35Z |3b|: or characters, or a few implementation specific things
2014-04-21T01:41:58Z BitPuffin: rule of thumb is eq for symbols and equal for all others
2014-04-21T01:42:09Z |3b| 's rule of thumb is "use eql"
2014-04-21T01:42:26Z |3b|: (unless i know they are both numbers but might be different types)
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2014-04-21T01:45:16Z BitPuffin: |3b|: doesn't equal pretty much always get it right though?
2014-04-21T01:45:47Z |3b|: all the equality predicates test different things, and they all exist because there is no single "right"
2014-04-21T01:46:28Z |3b|: EQUAL will tell you if 2 lists contain the same things, not if they are the same list
2014-04-21T01:47:08Z |3b|: which might be what you want, or it might not
2014-04-21T01:47:36Z |3b|: EQ or EQL will tell you if two things that might be the same list actually are the same list or not
2014-04-21T01:48:40Z |3b|: so if X and Y are EQL, changes to the contents of X will be visible in Y. if they are EQUAL but not EQL, changes to one won't affect the other
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2014-04-21T01:56:29Z Zhivago: Well, it will tell you about that link.
2014-04-21T01:56:35Z Zhivago: Two separate lists might converge. :)
2014-04-21T01:57:42Z BitPuffin: |3b|: well that list thing would work with eq as well
2014-04-21T01:57:53Z BitPuffin: I'd probably even use eq rather than eql for that
2014-04-21T01:58:05Z BitPuffin: like if two lists are the same memory
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2014-04-21T01:58:38Z |3b|: Zhivago: true, i missed the possibility of shared structure, so at best changes to 1 /might/ not affect the other
2014-04-21T01:58:43Z BitPuffin: so I don't know why I'd use eql
2014-04-21T01:58:52Z |3b|: BitPuffin: EQ and EQL are defined to be the same for conses
2014-04-21T01:58:53Z BitPuffin: when comparing numbers there is =
2014-04-21T01:59:08Z BitPuffin: |3b|: yeah but eql is like eq++
2014-04-21T01:59:10Z |3b|: = will error if one of the arguments isn't a number
2014-04-21T01:59:28Z BitPuffin: well I said numbers
2014-04-21T01:59:33Z BitPuffin: ah
2014-04-21T01:59:37Z BitPuffin: I egt what you mean
2014-04-21T01:59:39Z |3b|: eql is exactly EQ + comparing numbers/characters of same type by value
2014-04-21T02:00:37Z |3b|: so if you want to remember that distinction and think about whether you might be comparing numbers or not, you can use both
2014-04-21T02:01:06Z |3b| mostly doesn't want to think about it, so i just use EQL
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2014-04-21T02:01:24Z BitPuffin: |3b|: yeah but then I may as well use equal for number
2014-04-21T02:01:26Z BitPuffin: s
2014-04-21T02:01:29Z BitPuffin: and charecters
2014-04-21T02:01:31Z BitPuffin: etc
2014-04-21T02:01:53Z BitPuffin: does char/string-equal also error if arguments aren't what they claim?
2014-04-21T02:03:04Z |3b|: you could use EQUAL for numbers and characters, while using EQ/EQL for other things if you wanted, but that seems like as much work as using EQ + EQL
2014-04-21T02:04:42Z |3b|: arguments to char= are required to be characters, and string= requires string designators (so for example symbols are interpreted as the string naming the symbol)
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2014-04-21T02:06:11Z |3b|: so (string= "A" #\A) => t, (string= "A" 'A) => t, (string= 'A #\A) => t, while none of those are EQL or EQUAL
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2014-04-21T02:06:50Z |3b|: you can also limit string= to parts of the strings
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2014-04-21T02:50:17Z quotemstr: Where can I find the list of forms that are considered equivalent to top-level context when compiling a file? (progn is one of them.)
2014-04-21T02:50:41Z quotemstr: Ah, CLHS 3.2.3.1. Thanks.
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2014-04-21T02:55:10Z quotemstr: Huh. It looks like progn counts as a toplevel form, but prog1 does not.
2014-04-21T02:55:30Z Quadrescence: quotemstr, makes sense to me
2014-04-21T02:55:52Z Quadrescence: especially if you imagine how you might implement PROG1
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2014-04-21T02:59:29Z quotemstr: Quadrescence: Fair enough. I'm fixing a bug in elisp with respect to top-level forms and figured we might as well match CL
2014-04-21T03:03:55Z quotemstr: Hrm. Rule #4 is subtle. It looks like you'd need a custom expander for macrolet at toplevel.
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2014-04-21T03:04:29Z Bike: no, macroexpand already takes an environment
2014-04-21T03:05:18Z quotemstr: No, you're right.
2014-04-21T03:06:16Z quotemstr: A macro like macrolet or symbol-macrolet that fully macroexpands its arguments will still correctly shadow any macros in the global environment.
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2014-04-21T03:18:39Z quotemstr: Why does this program output 42, not -1? (macrolet ((foo () 42)) (defmacro foo () -1) (defun xxx () (foo))) (format t "xxx: ~S" (xxx))
2014-04-21T03:18:59Z quotemstr: That is, under what rule does the macrolet macro override the defmacro?
2014-04-21T03:19:19Z quotemstr: (Both SBCL and CLISP output 42, so I imagine that behavior is standard.)
2014-04-21T03:19:29Z Zhivago: Lexical scoping, surely ...
2014-04-21T03:19:29Z pjb: lexical binding.
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2014-04-21T03:20:06Z quotemstr: But isn't macrolet called out as special in that each body form is itself executed as a toplevel form?
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2014-04-21T03:20:30Z quotemstr: And if we just had the defmacro and defun at toplevel, then xxx would return -1.
2014-04-21T03:21:30Z pjb: Don't confuse special operators (and therefore special forms) with special variables.
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2014-04-21T03:23:05Z Bike: macroexpansion time is before runtime.
2014-04-21T03:25:07Z quotemstr: Sure. We're just talking about which macro definition takes precedence. I'm surprised that the macrolet does.
2014-04-21T03:25:54Z Bike: no, see, the defmacro isn't even evaluated before the macros are expanded.
2014-04-21T03:26:29Z quotemstr: Bike: But if that macrolet were a progn, it would be evaluated before the definition of xxx.
2014-04-21T03:26:50Z quotemstr: And 3.2.3.1 suggests that we should treat macrolet just like progn.
2014-04-21T03:26:59Z Bike: it would be evaluated before the definition of xxx /was evaluated/ but not before it /was macroexpanded/
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2014-04-21T03:34:29Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2014-04-21T03:35:11Z zRecursive: morning
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2014-04-21T05:12:37Z drl: Hi beach. I've lost the url for your McClim2 (or whatever it is called) project. Would you please give it to me again?
2014-04-21T05:13:39Z slyrus: drl https://github.com/robert-strandh/McCLIM might be what you're looking for
2014-04-21T05:15:21Z drl: slyrus: Thanks!
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2014-04-21T05:23:08Z beach: drl: What slyrus said! :)
2014-04-21T05:23:33Z beach: drl: Or maybe you are referring to CLIM3/CLIMatis?
2014-04-21T05:23:59Z beach: https://github.com/robert-strandh/CLIMatis
2014-04-21T05:33:43Z beach: Hmm, it looks like this is going to take some time to finish: http://metamodular.com/POSIX-API/posix-api.html :)
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2014-04-21T05:35:13Z beach: There are 300 or so system calls, plus various constants, structures, etc.  Plus, I have to come up with CL conditions and restarts for the high level functions.
2014-04-21T05:37:22Z beach: PIOD, Posix in one defun per day (cf SIOD).
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2014-04-21T05:44:10Z drl: beach: CLIM3 is what I was referring to. Thanks for the URL.
2014-04-21T05:44:52Z beach: Anytime! :)
2014-04-21T05:44:57Z louxiu`: Hi all. I write a simple test code with zmq req and rep. But the client always receive empty string. What's wrong with this piece of code? http://mysticpaste.com/view/cw0q3clzLq?2
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2014-04-21T05:54:37Z slyrus: beach: how's CLIMatis progressing?
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2014-04-21T06:14:13Z beach: slyrus: I haven't worked on it for a few months.  The main reason for that is that mathrick said he was going to use it to port Climacs to it.  But then he was held up, so that hasn't happened yet.  In the meantime, I again started working on SICL and now Cleavir.
2014-04-21T06:18:05Z beach: slyrus: The main thing missing is presentation types.  I am planning to get together with moore33 to discuss simplifications of CLIM II presentation types.
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2014-04-21T06:18:55Z beach: slyrus: Otherwise, pretty much everything is there, including a framework for making gadgets and a few examples of gadgets.
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2014-04-21T06:22:53Z drl:  https://github.com/robert-strandh/CLIMatis.git        (l@l:~)
2014-04-21T06:22:53Z drl: zsh: no such file or directory: https://github.com/robert-strandh/CLIMatis.git
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2014-04-21T06:24:11Z beach: drl: What are you trying to do?  Clone the repository?
2014-04-21T06:24:28Z drl: beach: yes.
2014-04-21T06:24:51Z beach: git clone https://github.com/robert-strandh/CLIMatis.git
2014-04-21T06:25:20Z slyrus: cool. would be nice to see CLIM resurrected/advanced.
2014-04-21T06:25:50Z beach: slyrus: CLIM3/CLIMatis will be significantly different from CLIM II though.
2014-04-21T06:26:06Z Quadrescence: I want CLIM too!
2014-04-21T06:27:05Z beach: OK, OK, I get the message! :)
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2014-04-21T06:28:16Z beach: drl: Were you able to clone it?
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2014-04-21T06:30:59Z drl: beach: not yet.
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2014-04-21T06:40:25Z kanru: the calendar demo application looks nice
2014-04-21T06:40:36Z beach: kanru: Thanks!
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2014-04-21T06:42:01Z beach: kanru: Warning, there might be demos that no longer work.
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2014-04-21T06:49:54Z caronmb: hola
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2014-04-21T06:59:05Z slyrus: beach: I have no problem with that!
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2014-04-21T07:02:54Z drl: beach: I did succeed in cloning it. Now to examine your code!
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2014-04-21T07:06:46Z beach: hello caronmb.
2014-04-21T07:06:52Z beach: drl: Great!
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2014-04-21T07:07:50Z beach: slyrus: Good, cause there is a lot of cruft in CLIM II that should be ditched.  For one thing, it does not lend itself to internationalization of applications.
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2014-04-21T07:08:43Z beach: caronmb: Are you new here?
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2014-04-21T07:27:41Z jackdaniel: o, new clim
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2014-04-21T07:32:17Z antoszka: jackdaniel: a new implementation or some update to one of the existing ones?
2014-04-21T07:32:17Z beach: jackdaniel: Don't hold your breath quite yet.
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2014-04-21T07:32:57Z beach: antoszka: New spec and new implementation.
2014-04-21T07:33:15Z antoszka: beach: Sounds good, would you have a link handy please?
2014-04-21T07:33:39Z beach: https://github.com/robert-strandh/CLIMatis
2014-04-21T07:33:41Z antoszka: thx
2014-04-21T07:36:20Z antoszka: beach: would ideas.txt be the only overview/readme available or is there more I could read somewhere (I'm not a regular of c.l.l. so I might have missed something)?
2014-04-21T07:37:01Z beach: antoszka: I would start by reading the spec CLIM3-Specification.
2014-04-21T07:37:19Z antoszka: OK.
2014-04-21T07:37:19Z beach: antoszka: You will likely have to install some additional LaTeX styles.
2014-04-21T07:37:26Z antoszka: Will do.
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2014-04-21T07:41:58Z Quadrescence: beach, unfortunately "make" is just frozen on Mac OS for the specification. I guess I'll try to debug it later.
2014-04-21T07:42:51Z beach: Quadrescence: Hmm.  I am afraid I don't have Mac OS available.  Please let me know what you find out, so that I can attempt to fix it.
2014-04-21T07:43:48Z antoszka: beach: Got lot of errors when 'make'ing the Specification, but the pdf actually seems to have come out OK.
2014-04-21T07:44:11Z beach: Great!  Don't know why you get errors though.
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2014-04-21T07:50:54Z Quadrescence: beach, https://github.com/robert-strandh/CLIMatis/issues/1
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2014-04-21T07:57:09Z beach: Quadrescence: Thanks!
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2014-04-21T08:00:06Z antoszka: beach: I think I might be missing something related to cross-referencing, got numerous “(See Section: ??.)” inside the text.
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2014-04-21T08:05:58Z beach: That happens when TeX is only run once.
2014-04-21T08:06:16Z beach: Try touch clim3.tex and then make.
2014-04-21T08:06:36Z antoszka: ok
2014-04-21T08:07:09Z beach clearly needs to work on the Makefile.
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2014-04-21T08:07:46Z antoszka: beach: That helped :)
2014-04-21T08:07:59Z beach: Great! (so to speak).
2014-04-21T08:08:02Z antoszka: Though I'm still seeing: Couldn't find input index file clim3 nor clim3.idx.
2014-04-21T08:08:15Z beach: antoszka: I just fixed that.
2014-04-21T08:08:22Z antoszka: Cool.
2014-04-21T08:08:52Z beach: But there is still a message about missing references.  That is normal though, because I don't think I have any \cite commands in there.
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2014-04-21T08:14:42Z beach: Quadrescence: In case you didn't see it, I fixed the problems and closed the issue.
2014-04-21T08:16:37Z jackdaniel: beach: what windowing system is a main target? X11?
2014-04-21T08:17:12Z beach: jackdaniel: That's what the implementation is using right now.  But like with CLIM II, different backends are possible.
2014-04-21T08:17:57Z beach: jackdaniel: In fact, right now I just use an X11 image as a frame buffer.
2014-04-21T08:18:02Z jackdaniel: im wondering, if it won't be easier to hack on wayland
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2014-04-21T08:18:10Z jackdaniel: X11 is like terrible ipc imho
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2014-04-21T08:18:22Z jackdaniel: and it will be more trendy ofc ;)
2014-04-21T08:18:26Z beach: Sure.
2014-04-21T08:18:54Z beach: Like I said, there is very little X11 functionality used, so a Wayland backend should not be too hard.
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2014-04-21T08:20:35Z beach: moore33 gave me the advice to create an OpenGL backend.
2014-04-21T08:21:55Z Zhivago: What you really need is a html5 backend.
2014-04-21T08:22:12Z beach: That would be very nice.
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2014-04-21T08:26:26Z jackdaniel: opengl es would be more portable / won't pull glx on most distros
2014-04-21T08:28:36Z beach: I think I need to leave the task of writing most backends to others, at least for now.  My priority is to incorporate presentation types.
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2014-04-21T09:03:03Z beach: Fixed the errors related to the bibliography when building the CLIM3 specification.
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2014-04-21T09:05:44Z antoszka: Yep, looks good here on a clean checkout, too.
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2014-04-21T09:09:36Z beach: Great!  Do you get the table of contents as well?
2014-04-21T09:10:42Z antoszka: Yep, the TOC is there and the references. You could also think about making TOC entries (and the cross-refs) hyperlinked.
2014-04-21T09:10:55Z antoszka: Don't know how much work that involves.
2014-04-21T09:11:13Z beach: antoszka: Thanks.  That's easy actually.  Just another LaTeX style to include.
2014-04-21T09:11:50Z antoszka: OK :)
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2014-04-21T09:12:30Z beach: I have only started doing that recently (for SICL and Cleavir), so CLIM3 is lagging behind. :)
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2014-04-21T09:14:26Z beach: Thanks for the feedback everyone.  I appreciate it.
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2014-04-21T09:27:12Z drl_: beach: is there a way to compile and load all the files at once, or does one have to do them one at a time?
2014-04-21T09:27:41Z beach: drl_: I don't remember. :(
2014-04-21T09:28:59Z beach: Since I can't for my life understand the ASDF documentation, the method for building the system is not optimal at the moment.
2014-04-21T09:30:24Z beach: drl_: How about the top-level :climatis system?
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2014-04-21T09:34:49Z kanru: I add CLIMatis to quicklisp/local-projects and then (ql:quickload "climatis"), it complains about unable to find 2-3-tree. It worked after I load 2-3-tree first then load climatis again.
2014-04-21T09:35:53Z beach: kanru: Oh, OK.  Thanks!
2014-04-21T09:36:15Z drl_: kanru: you just copied it there?
2014-04-21T09:36:27Z beach: There must be a missing dependence there.
2014-04-21T09:36:28Z kanru: drl_: copy or ln -s
2014-04-21T09:37:00Z drl_: kanru: thanks.
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2014-04-21T09:39:32Z antoszka: beach: Yeah, adding :2-3-tree to defsystem → depends-on does the trick.
2014-04-21T09:39:48Z beach: antoszka: To climatis.asd?
2014-04-21T09:40:07Z antoszka: yep
2014-04-21T09:40:13Z beach: Thanks.  I am on it.
2014-04-21T09:42:19Z beach: Fixed!
2014-04-21T09:42:46Z antoszka: :)
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2014-04-21T09:50:43Z beach: The "Clueless" inspector is actually cute.  It doesn't have a lot of features yet, but it has the basic structure in place.
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2014-04-21T10:10:15Z theos: sup
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2014-04-21T11:06:18Z mathrick: beach: what's Cleavir?
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2014-04-21T11:22:53Z vaporatorius: re
2014-04-21T11:25:24Z mathrick: beach: also, did you mean to dump a big list of *.html at the top-level of Closix repo? It seems like something that'd logically belong to docs/ or similar, with some .lisp files expected
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2014-04-21T11:27:58Z leonvv: How is it possible to read Lisp code if every form you see can be a macro that does some special evaluation using special forms?
2014-04-21T11:28:49Z jdz: leonvv: how is it possible to read C++ code where every operator may be overloaded, or Ruby code, where every class can be monkey-patched?
2014-04-21T11:29:10Z leonvv: jdz: I don't write neither of those, so I don't know
2014-04-21T11:29:40Z jdz: leonvv: so have you tried reading any lisp code then?
2014-04-21T11:29:46Z |3b|: leonvv: like most code, it helps to assume the author is sane
2014-04-21T11:30:02Z mathrick: leonvv: is it possible to read C code when IOCCC is a thing?
2014-04-21T11:30:04Z |3b|: (unfortunately, like most code, that isn't always true)
2014-04-21T11:30:31Z mathrick: obviously yes, because most C code has nothing to do with IOCCC
2014-04-21T11:30:39Z leonvv: jdz: Well, I'm trying to learn Lisp, but the learning curve is just soo steep. The SBCL repl is also a pain to use
2014-04-21T11:30:54Z jdz: leonvv: have you tried using SLIME?
2014-04-21T11:31:03Z mathrick: similarly with CL, most of the time, the forms do what you'd expect them to, and if the code is written to mislead, then why are you trying to read it in the first place?
2014-04-21T11:31:08Z |3b|: mathrick: i'd be more worried about the underhanded c contest or whatever it was called
2014-04-21T11:31:13Z jdz: leonvv: what teaching material are you using?
2014-04-21T11:31:19Z nyef: Also, there are some fairly obvious things that say "this form that you're looking at is a macro". Little things, like "it starts with WITH-", or "that can't be valid function-call syntax"...
2014-04-21T11:31:27Z mathrick: |3b|: I forgot that was a thing, but yeah
2014-04-21T11:31:30Z |3b|: at least with ioccc code you know you need to read it closely :)
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2014-04-21T11:32:01Z mathrick: |3b|: well, if it's in any * C Code Contest, then you know you have to read it closely :)
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2014-04-21T11:32:12Z mathrick: problems start when it's not and you still have to read it closely
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2014-04-21T11:32:27Z |3b|: and if you want reasons to worry about reading CL code, don't forget every single character could be a reader macro, completely changing how the text is interpreted :)
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2014-04-21T11:32:53Z leonvv: jdz: gigamonkeys, and On Lisp, but I didn't finish them
2014-04-21T11:33:07Z mathrick: and in Java, you can have compile-time annotations, which essentially serve as less-integrated, more difficult to set up macros
2014-04-21T11:33:08Z leonvv: jdz: should I learn functional programming first?
2014-04-21T11:33:13Z mathrick: and don't forget the CLASSPATH
2014-04-21T11:33:26Z jdz: leonvv: what is "functional programming" and how does one learn it?
2014-04-21T11:34:04Z jdz: leonvv: PCL should be very good for learning CL if you have some programming experience
2014-04-21T11:34:08Z mathrick: a friend worked at a company where entire codebase was driven by dirty CLASSPATH tricks. The entire class hierarchy was defined in the source, then completely overriden at runtime, so the effect was you had perfectly valid-looking source which was a complete lie
2014-04-21T11:34:32Z mathrick: and no tool would help you, because they all assume that source means something
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2014-04-21T11:35:03Z mathrick: leonvv: if somebody told you that CL is a "functional language", they lied or didn't know what they were talking about. CL isn't functional
2014-04-21T11:35:23Z mathrick: it's also not object-oriented, imperative, declarative or any other thing
2014-04-21T11:35:23Z leonvv: jdz: PCL = Practical Common Lisp?
2014-04-21T11:35:28Z mathrick: but it can be those when you need it to
2014-04-21T11:35:29Z jdz: leonvv: yes
2014-04-21T11:35:40Z nyef: minion: Advice on functional?
2014-04-21T11:35:41Z minion: You can't expect automated advice for everything.
2014-04-21T11:36:14Z leonvv: jdz: Okay, I'm going to get SLIME working and try again
2014-04-21T11:36:20Z leonvv: Thanks
2014-04-21T11:37:56Z mathrick: leonvv: writing lisp without SLIME is too painful, so definitely do get it working. Then PCL should be very adequate assuming it's not the book you learn the concept of programming from
2014-04-21T11:38:18Z |3b|: writing any language without something like SLIME is painful :/
2014-04-21T11:38:33Z mathrick: Peter writes very good prose, and very good, practical and well thought-out code too
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2014-04-21T11:39:16Z mathrick: |3b|: true, but most other languages aren't written with the assumption a SLIME will be there, so they tend to be less lacking in their bare form
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2014-04-21T11:39:53Z mathrick: though Java of course is the ultimate counter-example, it's all but impossible to write without a tool possessing a perfect knowledge of the language
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2014-04-21T11:41:00Z |3b|: mathrick: i mean stuff like interactive compilation/evaluation from editor
2014-04-21T11:41:09Z mathrick: I know what you mean :)
2014-04-21T11:41:18Z mathrick: it's what I feel every time I have to use a lesser language
2014-04-21T11:41:50Z mathrick: when I was writing C#, I spent some time researching any options to have a C# REPL
2014-04-21T11:42:21Z mathrick: but all such things are experimental, incomplete, outdated, don't actually work with the code you're interested in or all of the above
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2014-04-21T11:43:32Z mathrick: C# is a remarkably good mainstream C-alike in its current form. It's really impressive considering it started as Java+. But the utter lack of anything but a full compile is horrible for trying to figure things out
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2014-04-21T11:54:26Z beach: mathrick: Cleavir is the name I picked for the implementation-independent compiler tools.  Sort of like LLVM for Common Lisp.  It is till located in the SICL hierarchy.
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2014-04-21T11:54:59Z beach: mathrick: Closix is all documentation right now.
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2014-04-21T11:55:38Z novemberist: anyone here who uses slimv?
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2014-04-21T11:57:01Z nyef: ... "What's Closix"?
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2014-04-21T11:58:22Z mathrick: beach: ah. Just a suggestion then, but I personally find it clearer when it all lives under doc/, so it's obvious that nothing but docs exist right now
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2014-04-21T11:59:12Z mathrick: beach: what kind of LLVM do you have in mind? Up to and including code generation, or more modest?
2014-04-21T11:59:19Z nyef: ... And where are these repositories?
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2014-04-21T11:59:59Z mathrick: nyef: https://github.com/robert-strandh?tab=repositories
2014-04-21T12:00:00Z beach: nyef: Closix is the name of the GitHub repository for this: http://metamodular.com/POSIX-API/posix-api.html
2014-04-21T12:00:22Z beach: mathrick: Including code generation.
2014-04-21T12:00:32Z mathrick: beach: neat!
2014-04-21T12:00:34Z nyef: Ahh, neat.
2014-04-21T12:00:43Z nyef: Dare I ask for ptrace()? (-:
2014-04-21T12:00:58Z beach: nyef: Ask away! :)
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2014-04-21T12:01:15Z nyef: Actually, somewhere I should have some code for messing about with ptrace from SBCL.
2014-04-21T12:01:18Z beach: nyef: Cleavir is still a subdirectory in the SICL repository.
2014-04-21T12:03:21Z mathrick: beach: are you going to lift Python's type analysis and optimisation machinery?
2014-04-21T12:03:32Z beach: No.
2014-04-21T12:03:40Z mathrick: having those available in a pluggable, tweakable form would be amazing
2014-04-21T12:03:42Z mathrick: aw
2014-04-21T12:03:51Z beach: I am reading papers about all that stuff and then implementing the algorithms they give.
2014-04-21T12:04:11Z beach: But yes, it will all be pluggable and tweakable.
2014-04-21T12:04:43Z beach: Maybe what I read and implement will turn out to be the same as what Python does.
2014-04-21T12:05:41Z mathrick: beach: are you aware of the Dylan work done semi-recently (2010-ish)?
2014-04-21T12:05:48Z mathrick: I can find the paper if not
2014-04-21T12:05:51Z beach: I am implementing type inference as a data flow problem in the flow graph.  I don't know what Python is doing.
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2014-04-21T12:06:26Z beach: mathrick: I don't think I have seen that recent work, no.
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2014-04-21T12:09:02Z mathrick: there's https://itu.dk/people/hame/ilc2010.pdf , but I don't think it's the one I had in mind
2014-04-21T12:10:04Z beach: mathrick: Definitely interesting.  Thanks.
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2014-04-21T12:11:59Z mathrick: beach: there are earlier also publications on method dispatch, which is heavily related: http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/reports/TR2001-404.pdf http://people.csail.mit.edu/jrb/Projects/pd.pdf
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2014-04-21T12:14:43Z beach: Thanks.  I am aware of those last two.
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2014-04-21T12:18:14Z mathrick: beach: it seems the one I linked first is the one I remembered, though I remembered it differently. I'm semi-convinced there was some work on producing a tweakable inference engine for Dylan that was posted to /r/lisp, but I can't find it now, so it might've been really that
2014-04-21T12:19:01Z beach: OK.
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2014-04-21T12:20:27Z mathrick: I might be able to locate it in one of my many downloaded papers folders, if it made it to my online backup
2014-04-21T12:20:56Z beach: If you do, send it to me by email, please!
2014-04-21T12:21:12Z mathrick: will do
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2014-04-21T12:21:52Z beach: About method dispatch, I think the method I came up with for SICL is going to be around 4 times as fast as what SBCL/PCL is using now.
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2014-04-21T12:22:04Z beach: It is an estimate, but I think it will work.
2014-04-21T12:23:10Z nyef: beach: Can it be back-ported to SBCL?
2014-04-21T12:24:07Z beach: nyef: Maybe.  It depends on each class having a unique number, which is reassigned when the class is redefined.
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2014-04-21T12:24:39Z beach: In the case of SICL, that number is then stored in each instance (except CONS cells and immediates).
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2014-04-21T12:27:41Z mathrick: beach: how does your method work?
2014-04-21T12:27:42Z beach: As part of SICL bootstrapping, I implemented the mechanism in SBCL, by subclassing funcallable-standard-object, but I fake the instances by allocating them as a combination of an SBCL struct and and SBCL simple vector.
2014-04-21T12:28:22Z beach: mathrick: Dead simple.  You can find it documented in the SICL documentation.  Just use nested IFs that test for intervals of numbers.
2014-04-21T12:28:43Z beach: mathrick: It is faster because testing for immediate numbers is faster today than going to tables in memory.
2014-04-21T12:28:57Z mathrick: heh
2014-04-21T12:29:55Z beach: Although I have tested it in the bootstrapping code, you should know that Nick Levine told me quite plainly: "It won't work!"
2014-04-21T12:30:23Z mathrick: is it faster in your bootstrapping code?
2014-04-21T12:30:50Z beach: I wish! :) but no.  I created a simulation to measure performance.
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2014-04-21T12:31:51Z beach: I am pretty sure the simulation does more work than the native mechanism will do at runtime, so my estimate is probably conservative.
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2014-04-21T12:32:46Z mathrick: beach: so yeah, I found a 300MB cache of papers in the same backup where I have ~/Dev/Dylan, so there are good chances it's from the period I remembered and the paper has been saved. I'll report back when the restore is done and I've gone through all the files
2014-04-21T12:33:01Z beach: Great!  Thanks!
2014-04-21T12:33:58Z mathrick: also, "man, 1MB/s is too slow" is the pinnacle of first-world problems :)
2014-04-21T12:34:36Z beach: Your network connection?  Yes, definitely too slow.
2014-04-21T12:35:11Z mathrick: the connection is rated for 2.5MB/s actually, though my oooold router is limiting it to 1.7MB/s in practice. But the restore was only getting 1MB of that
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2014-04-21T12:35:25Z mathrick: note it's megaBYTES, not megaBITS
2014-04-21T12:35:55Z beach: Sure.
2014-04-21T12:36:00Z beach: Still too slow.
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2014-04-21T12:37:03Z mathrick: I dunno, I find it fairly adequate given the rest of my equipment. I rarely run into situations where I actually feel it to be slow, restores of things I want to get at *right now* are about the only thing, aside from big video downloads I'm dying to watch that aren't streaming
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2014-04-21T12:38:07Z pjb: Here, in the civlized world, we get 8-12 MB/s at least…
2014-04-21T12:39:13Z mathrick: I could've bought a 100Mbps connection, but it'd have been more expensive and neither my wifi card nor my router can go so fast anyway
2014-04-21T12:39:53Z mathrick: I'm not sure what I'd use it for anyway, it was more important to me to have it symmetric (ie. 20/20Mbps) rather than absolutely greatest downlink speeds
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2014-04-21T12:41:05Z mathrick: beach: hahah, one of the papers saved in that cache is "sicl.pdf"
2014-04-21T12:41:07Z beach: nyef: You could read chapter 16 of this document: http://metamodular.com/sicl.pdf and then determine how easy it would be to back port it to SBCL.
2014-04-21T12:41:17Z beach: mathrick: Heh!
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2014-04-21T12:42:42Z beach: nyef: I would be interested in your assessment.
2014-04-21T12:43:07Z nyef: I'm massively unfamiliar with the PCL code, unfortunately, so I haven't any real idea of where to start.
2014-04-21T12:43:33Z beach: nyef: Oh.  I see.  There is a paper describing what PCL does.  It's quite easy to read.
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2014-04-21T12:44:07Z beach: nyef: And there are comments in the code indicating that Krystof re-implemented the technique of the paper recently.
2014-04-21T12:44:50Z nyef: Unfortunately, my project list is swamped with enough non-PCL SBCL stuff to last me for quite a while.
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2014-04-21T12:45:19Z beach: nyef: Yes, of course.
2014-04-21T12:45:38Z mathrick: oh, Didier's paper on CLOS instantiation efficiency
2014-04-21T12:45:50Z mathrick: I sure have a lot of "Lisp goes zoooom!" papers
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2014-04-21T12:50:13Z beach: Time to go spend time with my (admittedly small) family.  BBL.
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2014-04-21T12:51:20Z abeaumont: I don't remember seeing any other paper about Dylan method dispatch, if there's any other one I'd be interested aswell
2014-04-21T12:51:45Z abeaumont: apparently those improvementes are half implemented and commented in current dylan codebase
2014-04-21T12:52:28Z abeaumont: brucem may have looked at that recently, he may know better
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2014-04-21T12:53:57Z abeaumont: beach: i think hannes has done some further work on type inference, he's preparing another paper for this year ILC iirc
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2014-04-21T13:01:45Z PuercoPop: oi, how do I bind a variable for a loop iteration? I'm trying to prevent  double evaluation. Can't use a let because I use it in two different clauses
2014-04-21T13:02:58Z Zhivago: Lets can contain two different clauses.
2014-04-21T13:03:32Z Zhivago: Ah, you mean for LOOP -- there's a per iteration binding operator.
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2014-04-21T13:04:33Z Zhivago: Isn't it just for x = y ?
2014-04-21T13:05:09Z Zhivago: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw51/CLHS/Body/06_abb.htm <- there you go
2014-04-21T13:05:48Z PuercoPop: Thanks
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2014-04-21T13:07:06Z axion: for x = y within iteration, or with x =y outside of iteration
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2014-04-21T13:11:24Z dim: anyone here working with the debian CL packaging team?
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2014-04-21T13:13:57Z mathrick: PuercoPop: mind however that LOOP's binding is "parallel", which a lot of the time is exactly not what you want
2014-04-21T13:14:36Z mathrick: (it matters when you do something like "for x = (foo elem) for y = (bar foo)")
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2014-04-21T13:18:37Z pjb: Compare (loop repeat 4 for x = 1 then (1+ y) for y = 1 then (1+ x) collect (list x y)) with (loop repeat 4 for x = 1 then (1+ y) and y = 1 then (1+ x) collect (list x y))
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2014-04-21T13:46:43Z dim: ;; Error while loading /Users/dim/.slime/fasl/2013-11-17/sbcl-1.0.99.999-darwin-x86-64/swank.fasl: Unhandled memory fault at #x0.
2014-04-21T13:47:14Z dim: seems like today's SBCL HEAD is broken, and the other version I have is 1.1.17 with the ipv6 bugs and some more subtle ones
2014-04-21T13:47:58Z dim switches back to 1.1.17 nonetheless
2014-04-21T13:50:14Z beach: abeaumont: Thanks.  I'll hear the presentation y
2014-04-21T13:50:17Z PuercoPop: mathrick: I'm trying to pop a stack until its empty, so no such problems.
2014-04-21T13:50:19Z beach: myself.
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2014-04-21T14:00:40Z zacts: pjb: what kinds of CL projects do you work on?
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2014-04-21T14:02:39Z stassats`: dim: are you sure?
2014-04-21T14:02:51Z stassats`: 1.0.99.999 doesn't look like the current version number
2014-04-21T14:03:21Z stassats`: are you using loading old fasls?
2014-04-21T14:03:33Z dim: I did rm -rf ~/.cache/common-lisp/sbcl*
2014-04-21T14:03:53Z dim: it might be that the version string comes from the brew package
2014-04-21T14:03:56Z stassats`: you didn't rm -r .slime/fasl/*, did you?
2014-04-21T14:04:00Z dim: they have patches apparently
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2014-04-21T14:04:02Z dim: I didn't
2014-04-21T14:04:17Z dim: but I went back to 1.1.17 and I'm back in ldb
2014-04-21T14:04:28Z dim: for quite a simple test, if memory hungry
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2014-04-21T14:12:53Z dim is back, too many bugs today, Emacs is impacted too
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2014-04-21T14:17:11Z dim: and ldb again
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2014-04-21T14:17:49Z dim: profiling that perf regression ain't going to be easy if all I manage to do is entering the low level debugger
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2014-04-21T14:18:29Z dim: Rank Name                                                    Self% Cumul% Total%
2014-04-21T14:18:29Z dim: 1    "foreign function __select"                            100.00 100.00 100.00
2014-04-21T14:18:30Z dim: anyways.
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2014-04-21T14:29:52Z Poenikatu: Hello. I'm using LisHi!. I'm trying to trace a recursive function in LispWorks and I'm finding that the recursive call is not registered. Past at paste.lisp.org/142231 contains the data.
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2014-04-21T14:30:11Z Poenikatu: *LisHi! -> LispWorks
2014-04-21T14:30:23Z nyef: ... Is the recursive call in tail position?
2014-04-21T14:30:43Z Poenikatu: nyef: No
2014-04-21T14:30:49Z nyef: Hrm.
2014-04-21T14:30:56Z nyef: Recursive self-call?
2014-04-21T14:31:31Z nyef: Might get converted to an iteration construct / use the (known) address to the start of the function rather than whatever trace magic is involved.
2014-04-21T14:31:40Z Poenikatu: If you look at my paste, you will see the function generate at the bottom of the listing, just before the trace output
2014-04-21T14:32:19Z nyef: Oddly enough, it looks blank to me?
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2014-04-21T14:32:45Z nyef: You're missing the http:// at the front, and the display/ URL component.
2014-04-21T14:33:16Z Poenikatu: nyef: Try http://paste.lisp.org/+31QV
2014-04-21T14:34:45Z nyef: I presume you're referring to the call in the COND clause selected by (SETF RWS (REWRITES PHRASE)) ?
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2014-04-21T14:35:27Z nyef: If so, it's in tail-position, and the compiler has every right to convert it to a loop construct, or even just a backwards jump.
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2014-04-21T14:35:55Z Poenikatu: nyef: Thank you. I hadn't realised that it's in tail position.
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2014-04-21T14:36:43Z Poenikatu: nyef: That explains why the tracing code wasn't actioned before the mappend call. Thanks a lot.
2014-04-21T14:37:05Z nyef: You're welcome.
2014-04-21T14:37:09Z Poenikatu: nyef: And thank you for taking the time
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2014-04-21T14:53:12Z PuercoPop: Poenikatu: btw they patched cl-i18n to not depend in oscicat. The error you were having should be gone
2014-04-21T14:53:46Z Poenikatu: PuercoPop: Just brilliant news. Great! And thanks
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2014-04-21T14:54:43Z Odin-: Is there any existing URI/IRI library that has both non-broken relative determination and can be told not to do optional normalisation?
2014-04-21T14:55:39Z pjb: Odin-: and this is why there are so many NIH libraries.
2014-04-21T14:56:13Z pjb: Next time, instead of writing a library to do X, write a library to generate libraries to do X, with variants.
2014-04-21T14:56:34Z pjb: See for example com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.ecma048
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2014-04-21T14:57:05Z Odin-: (let ((the-uri (puri:parse-uri "http://www.example.org/this/is/a/bug"))) (puri:merge-uris (puri:enough-uri the-uri the-uri) the-uri))
2014-04-21T14:57:35Z Odin-: That's a bug, plain and simple. But yes, I understand your point. :)
2014-04-21T15:00:24Z Poenikatu: PuercoPop: Just tried (ql:quickload "cl-i18n") and it faults because it cannot find the component "flexi-streams" which it has downloaded. I don't understand that message. Can you help?
2014-04-21T15:01:01Z Xach: Poenikatu: That is odd. What do you get from (ql:where-is-system "flexi-streams")?
2014-04-21T15:01:03Z pjb: On the other hand, with open source it should be easy to contribute back a patch.
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2014-04-21T15:02:04Z Poenikatu: Xach: the directory containing flexi-streams-1.0.12
2014-04-21T15:02:06Z Odin-: pjb: Yes. It should. The reason I'm asking is to figure out if that's the best course of action.
2014-04-21T15:02:08Z PuercoPop: Poenikatu: btw you will probabli need to dowload the git(hub) repo to quick-lisp/local-projects . quicklisp is updated once a month.
2014-04-21T15:02:27Z Xach: PuercoPop: what git repo?
2014-04-21T15:02:38Z Xach: Poenikatu: what do you get from (ql:quickload "flexi-streams")?
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2014-04-21T15:04:09Z PuercoPop: Xach: https://github.com/cage2/cl-i18n
2014-04-21T15:04:28Z Poenikatu: Xach: ("flexi-streams")
2014-04-21T15:04:36Z Xach: PuercoPop: oh, to get the version with the osicat change?
2014-04-21T15:04:39Z Poenikatu: Xach: ie, it loaded
2014-04-21T15:04:55Z Xach: Poenikatu: do you still get an error when you quickload cl-i18n?
2014-04-21T15:05:23Z Poenikatu: Xach: No
2014-04-21T15:05:29Z Xach: odd
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2014-04-21T15:19:15Z Poenikatu: Xach: Not really, because I did it with emacs/sbcl and slime. Now to try it on LispWorks
2014-04-21T15:19:42Z Sir_herrbatka: Poenikatu: you have a lispworks?
2014-04-21T15:19:53Z Sir_herrbatka: it is kinda expensive -_-'
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2014-04-21T15:19:58Z Xach: Poenikatu: Either the situation is unusual or your description of it is incomplete.
2014-04-21T15:20:24Z Poenikatu: Sir_herrbatka: Yes! Yes! I reckoned that it's the best IDE available for CL
2014-04-21T15:20:27Z Xach: There are times where quicklisp will not automatically fetch dependencies, but flexi-streams is rarely if ever in that situation.
2014-04-21T15:21:23Z Poenikatu: Sir_herrbatka: I had the cash and because "you can't take it with you" (which is important to a 75 year-old) I splurged it on a LW Professional
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2014-04-21T15:23:18Z Poenikatu: Xach: In LW, called (ql:quickload "cl-i18n") and got 3 compilations using cc -m32 ... the last being of wrappers.c.
2014-04-21T15:23:23Z stassats` splurged on SBCL professional
2014-04-21T15:23:47Z nyef is splurging on "interesting" hardware to run SBCL on.
2014-04-21T15:23:53Z Poenikatu: stassats`: Good for you. Didn't know there was a SBCL professional
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2014-04-21T15:24:31Z nyef: Poenikatu: There isn't. Unless you want to give a kickback to the maintainers, or pay for a new feature to be developed...?
2014-04-21T15:24:32Z Poenikatu: Xach: Failed on trying to load librt.so.1. I'll check with apt-cache and apt-get
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2014-04-21T15:25:44Z Poenikatu: Xach: Just did "locate librt.so" and it appears that I have both the i386 and the amd64 versions.
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2014-04-21T15:30:51Z francogrex: nyef: you were working on the arm port right?
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2014-04-21T15:31:37Z nyef: francogrex: Was, and am.
2014-04-21T15:31:47Z Poenikatu: Xach: It appears that osicat is being compiled again. So it's clear that my quicklisp has loaded the old version of cl-i18n.
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2014-04-21T15:33:02Z francogrex: for my knowledge, if all core programs are in C an implementation should be readily portable wherever we have a good C compiler
2014-04-21T15:33:29Z francogrex: I mean a C compiler for that architecture
2014-04-21T15:33:42Z p_l: francogrex: the problem is that SBCL needs a code generator for ARM
2014-04-21T15:33:56Z p_l: and various low-level routines for ARM
2014-04-21T15:33:58Z Xach: Poenikatu: I'm not sure how that is related to the flexi-streams problem
2014-04-21T15:34:53Z francogrex: you mean it should compile lisp to arm instructions directly
2014-04-21T15:35:24Z p_l: francogrex: that's how SBCL works
2014-04-21T15:35:46Z p_l: the C part is essentially an OS support package and iirc GC
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2014-04-21T15:36:42Z nyef: Yes, GC, unix signal handling, core loading, stubs for various FFI bits and bots, a couple of trampoline functions (which one of these days I should move to read-only space), stuff like that.
2014-04-21T15:36:47Z nyef: Also core saving.
2014-04-21T15:39:56Z francogrex: ok. I guess it's ok to borrow code from ccl/compiler/ARM/
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2014-04-21T15:41:50Z nyef: No point, SBCL and CCL have vastly different internal architecture.
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2014-04-21T15:43:20Z pjb: A compiler should be independent of an implementation architecture…
2014-04-21T15:44:09Z nyef: Internal COMPILER architecture.
2014-04-21T15:45:17Z jackdaniel: is there any spec, what this code generator should do? (which subset of lisp should it "understand")
2014-04-21T15:45:40Z jackdaniel: in sbcl case ofc
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2014-04-21T15:47:15Z nyef: Yes and no. It's somewhat of an implied spec, based on what the compiler does in general, the support code for various things that is written in lisp, what the other compiler backends do, and so on.
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2014-04-21T15:47:21Z nyef: And it varies over time.
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2014-04-21T15:48:38Z jackdaniel: so there isn't constant core subset on top of which whole thing is build in pure lisp?
2014-04-21T15:49:57Z francogrex: for example something like define-arm-instruction adc .. should be the same opcodes whether it's gcc, sbcl, ccl ...
2014-04-21T15:50:09Z oGMo: francogrex: yeah no it's not going to work that easily heh
2014-04-21T15:50:10Z p_l: francogrex: doesn't mean it's reusable
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2014-04-21T15:51:00Z p_l: GCC was infamously made complicated on purpose, the way CCL and SBCL generate code are afaik completely different in actual implementation, etc.
2014-04-21T15:51:01Z Fare: ok, so package-system is dead, long-live package-inferred-system. The backward compatibility system is still backward-compatibly named asdf-package-system, though.
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2014-04-21T15:51:27Z oGMo: architectures aren't just the same instruction sets with slightly different funny names
2014-04-21T15:51:38Z nyef: p_l: Reference for the GCC thing, please?
2014-04-21T15:52:04Z Fare: is the sbcl x64 assembler complete wrt the target architecture, or is it just a subset as used by sbcl?
2014-04-21T15:52:30Z oGMo: from what i saw neither sbcl nor ccl has complete assemblers, but i may not have seen correctly
2014-04-21T15:52:35Z oGMo: "have"
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2014-04-21T15:52:40Z nyef: Plausibly the latter, but it should be fairly complete. I wouldn't expect any I/O instructions, though.
2014-04-21T15:52:52Z stassats`: Fare: strives to be complete, but it isn't
2014-04-21T15:53:04Z p_l: nyef: don't remember the details, but something about making GCC so that you had to either integrate into GCC, or forget it, making different stages interdependant in weird ways to make it impossible to just use for example GCC code generator or something
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2014-04-21T15:53:11Z Fare: stassats`, ok, thanks.
2014-04-21T15:53:16Z p_l: nyef: might be a folk tale, of course
2014-04-21T15:53:30Z p_l: though wouldn't surprise me given RMS :)
2014-04-21T15:53:49Z Fare wonders what to use as the basis of a standalone assembler in lisp: nasm, or the sbcl assembler, or something else
2014-04-21T15:54:10Z Fare: a lot of the assemblers I see are desperately subsetting stuff
2014-04-21T15:54:34Z Fare: and specialized to their single user (= a compiler)
2014-04-21T15:55:03Z oGMo: does llvm have an assembler that's not just for its bytecode? i was actually just looking and didn't see one
2014-04-21T15:55:17Z p_l: I don't think so
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2014-04-21T15:55:45Z oGMo: clang will produce assembly if you ask for it
2014-04-21T15:56:35Z p_l: I think it's assembly genereated from LLVM into assembler form, and that it can "pass-through" inline assembly
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2014-04-21T15:57:16Z pjb: Fare: remember you have vaciatis, so you could use an assembler written in C, and compile it into lisp ;-)
2014-04-21T15:57:38Z Fare: pjb: yes, but no thanks.
2014-04-21T15:58:24Z Fare: I'd like to use partial evaluation / deforestation / ... to specialize the code at some point.
2014-04-21T15:58:24Z pjb: Since you mention nasm.
2014-04-21T15:58:37Z Fare: I was thinking of translating nasm to lisp
2014-04-21T15:58:49Z Fare: the advantage being reusing its instruction database
2014-04-21T15:58:50Z pjb: Using vaciatis would even let you call the internals of a C library…
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2014-04-21T16:05:10Z mathrick: beach: in the TOC, both "read" and "exit" high-level links go to http://metamodular.com/POSIX-API/read.html (ie. exit.html is not linked anywhere)
2014-04-21T16:07:05Z mathrick: p_l: it's not a folk tale, RMS fought tooth and nail to thwart any attempts at a reusable module architecture. Both the plugins and the gcc-xml intermediate stage have been delayed for years because of that
2014-04-21T16:07:30Z mathrick: it's also how LLVM happened in the first place
2014-04-21T16:07:51Z mathrick: apple first offered to contribute their improvements to upstream GCC, which rejected it summarily
2014-04-21T16:07:57Z p_l: mathrick: Yeah, I heard it as pretty truthful info, just didn't have citations on hand
2014-04-21T16:08:00Z francogrex: well the fact that GCC is complicated is no secret; that's one of the reason for the existence of other compilers like llvm
2014-04-21T16:08:34Z mathrick: francogrex: yes, but it's not just complicated because it happened to be that way, it was purposefully made complex and non-modular
2014-04-21T16:08:49Z mathrick: and RMS was pretty open about it
2014-04-21T16:09:41Z mathrick: hell, he openly called LLVM a "terrible setback" this year
2014-04-21T16:10:07Z francogrex: ok; I thought it started out faily simple and got complicated with different versions/upgrades (about gcc)
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2014-04-21T16:10:24Z mathrick: apparently the fact that there are finally open tools that can match what commercial environments have been offering for the past 15 years is not an improvement to im
2014-04-21T16:11:09Z francogrex: LLVM a terrible setback? why would he say that?
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2014-04-21T16:11:28Z H4ns: francogrex: because llvm is not gpl licensed.
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2014-04-21T16:11:58Z mathrick: francogrex: http://news.slashdot.org/story/14/01/24/1838241/fsfs-richard-stallman-calls-llvm-a-terrible-setback http://gcc.gnu.org/ml/gcc/2014-01/msg00247.html
2014-04-21T16:12:04Z francogrex: thx
2014-04-21T16:12:09Z H4ns: francogrex: just read a bit of what he writes, or hear what he says.  it is pretty obvious that he's a mad person.
2014-04-21T16:13:13Z p_l: he is a politician
2014-04-21T16:13:36Z francogrex: ok, but he admits that LLVM is a very good compiler
2014-04-21T16:13:38Z mathrick: RMS is the kind of "freedom fighter" to blow up civilian buses in the name of the cause
2014-04-21T16:15:25Z francogrex having said that is not in any way courageous enough to move away from his gcc familiar comfort zone
2014-04-21T16:15:26Z bjorkintosh: mathrick, there's no proof of that, and it's a dangerous statement to make in this decidedly non-free world.
2014-04-21T16:15:44Z LiamH: Whenever I've read what he says (vs. what people say he says), I've found it quite rational. Not to say I agree with it always, but it is anything but "obvious" he's a "mad person".
2014-04-21T16:16:01Z bjorkintosh: ungrateful bastards!
2014-04-21T16:16:10Z H4ns: LiamH: of course, if you subscribe to his definition of "freedom"
2014-04-21T16:16:29Z LiamH: He has clear goals and is adamant in sticking to them.
2014-04-21T16:16:29Z nyef: "Remember: Freedom is slavery."
2014-04-21T16:16:59Z oGMo: i don't necessarily agree with RMS, but he maintains an important "raise the average" sort of position
2014-04-21T16:17:04Z oGMo: that said, i <3 clang/llvm
2014-04-21T16:17:12Z mathrick: bjorkintosh: the results of his action, the kind of reasoning and responses he gives make it perfectly clear that it's the case. He absolutely would be killing kulaks if he happened to be born a century earlier and on a different hemisphere
2014-04-21T16:17:34Z oGMo: (though llvm has its own issues, and they don't produce code that's as good as gcc .. yet)
2014-04-21T16:17:38Z mathrick: I'm not saying that apple for example aren't dangerous, cynical bastards
2014-04-21T16:17:46Z mathrick: but RMS is a madman and there's no doubt about it
2014-04-21T16:17:58Z H4ns: well, i admire rms as a technical writer, and i also think he's written some very good programs.
2014-04-21T16:18:42Z mathrick: H4ns: I think "inspired" is more like it. I was always taken aback whenever I interacted with actual RMS code
2014-04-21T16:18:50Z mathrick: at least his C is abysmal
2014-04-21T16:19:29Z mathrick: I read no teco, so no comments here
2014-04-21T16:19:47Z H4ns: mathrick: i have used emacs for 20 years, and i still like it.  and when i was writing c and c++, i used gcc a lot and liked it.
2014-04-21T16:20:01Z bjorkintosh: mathrick, and you're wailing on the poor man because, why?
2014-04-21T16:20:23Z stassats`: less talk, more code
2014-04-21T16:20:27Z H4ns: bjorkintosh: you're defending the man because, why?
2014-04-21T16:20:30Z stassats`: minion: chant
2014-04-21T16:20:30Z minion: MORE CODE
2014-04-21T16:20:33Z H4ns: stassats`: apologies
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2014-04-21T16:21:31Z bjorkintosh: just let the guy be, mad or not. he's not here to defend himself.
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2014-04-21T16:23:28Z jackdaniel: well, stuff like llvm lets actually big players to close their code (as plugin-blob), still using goodies from open source community. therefore it actually hurts this community in that way, that it delays open drivers in example
2014-04-21T16:23:59Z jackdaniel: goal of gpl was to force companies to open then driver, because there is so many *great* free programs, that they actually need them
2014-04-21T16:24:09Z jackdaniel: imho ofc ,þ
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2014-04-21T16:25:20Z H4ns: the gpl and open source in general killed a good portion of the smaller software firms because companies get the stuff they used to pay for for free now.
2014-04-21T16:25:29Z H4ns: that's the other side of the coin.
2014-04-21T16:26:59Z oGMo: pfft, crappy firms. also, on-topic: clang let me do c2ffi, which continues to help me immensely _in CL_, and gcc was far too inaccessible for such
2014-04-21T16:27:18Z H4ns: :D
2014-04-21T16:27:41Z francogrex: "LLVM can read a human readble assembly code and convert it to LLVM bitcode..." << how is that better or more efficient than GCC... no no LLVM for me
2014-04-21T16:27:49Z oGMo: big step up over swig's unmaintained/broken/unfixable cffi module
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2014-04-21T16:28:33Z oGMo: francogrex: weren't you just asking for a common extensible instruction setup for SBCL?
2014-04-21T16:28:56Z oGMo: if you could port SBCL to LLVM's bytecode, _that_ would give you a portable core
2014-04-21T16:28:58Z stassats`: i don't think francogrex knows much what he's talking about
2014-04-21T16:29:10Z ck_: what was that quote again about the biggest problem with computer science being not such an opinionated jerk about everything? :)
2014-04-21T16:29:17Z francogrex: I know very well
2014-04-21T16:29:56Z francogrex: I want architercture instructions directly to machine code and nothing in between
2014-04-21T16:30:31Z oGMo: stassats`: definitely
2014-04-21T16:32:40Z francogrex: and a compiler that directly translates from whatever language to the standard assembly for tha machine, no in-between bullshit
2014-04-21T16:33:13Z ggole: Every compiler worth a damn has an intermediate representation.
2014-04-21T16:33:34Z oGMo: SBCL has 2! (or more?)
2014-04-21T16:34:10Z ggole: LLVM just expose and document theirs.
2014-04-21T16:34:35Z ggole: Which is not actually that uncommon a thing to do: Open64, for instance, also document their IR.
2014-04-21T16:35:59Z oGMo: yeah .. they have or had some issues like the hands-off stack management which would be an issue for SBCL (i would imagine), but that may be better in 3.3/3.4+
2014-04-21T16:37:14Z francogrex: I am writing my own machine code by hand, not even using an assembler anymore
2014-04-21T16:38:09Z stassats`: way to stick it to the man
2014-04-21T16:38:30Z oGMo: M-x butterfly
2014-04-21T16:38:41Z ggole: Hunting down relocation mistakes does sound like a very productive way to spend your time.
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2014-04-21T16:44:40Z jackdaniel: by hand? i remember we had 8086 with switches in lab at uni
2014-04-21T16:44:55Z jackdaniel: that was fun to make simple loops in it :)
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2014-04-21T16:47:37Z francogrex: yeah, using the intel manual... I even posted a few about how to poke them using cffi
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2014-04-21T16:48:33Z francogrex: http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Machine_code was not very popular but it's great
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2014-04-21T16:57:13Z zophy: yah, mein bittle kerfloopin ist rad
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2014-04-21T17:09:11Z axion: in postmodern, does anyone know if it's possible to copy a row from one table to another with the same schema, but using dao (not query/insert-into statement)?
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2014-04-21T17:42:05Z segv-: axion: i can't think of anything like that in the dao code
2014-04-21T17:43:23Z segv-: though you do have pomo::dao-column-slots, so it shouldn't be hard to write code to copy the pomo slots from one instances of one type into another instance of another type and then call upsert-dao
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2014-04-21T17:46:21Z axion: hmmm, i'll lok into that. thanks!
2014-04-21T17:46:47Z zmyrgel: hi, is there way to make functions available in, is it macro expansion time?
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2014-04-21T17:47:26Z zmyrgel: I'm trying to use two utility functions in define-constant calls but I get error for undefined functions
2014-04-21T17:47:30Z Xach: zymurgy: eval-when is one way
2014-04-21T17:47:42Z Xach: zymurgy: separate files, where one is compiled and loaded first, is another
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2014-04-21T17:48:45Z zmyrgel: Xach: ok, will try that
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2014-04-21T17:55:11Z Fare: even with separate files, eval-when is more polite
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2014-04-21T18:13:08Z jasom: Fare: with proper naming, I feel like separate files is just as polite.
2014-04-21T18:13:33Z jasom: (And explicit depends in the asdf file)
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2014-04-21T18:18:21Z Fare: even with separate files, eval-when allows for cfasls to work properly
2014-04-21T18:18:29Z Fare: not that anyone uses cfasls, anyway
2014-04-21T18:18:53Z Fare: what with the xcvb maintainer being a traitor and improving asdf instead
2014-04-21T18:19:30Z Fare: and at google, it looks like speed junkies load dependencies from source in interpreted mode.
2014-04-21T18:19:46Z jasom: interesting
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2014-04-21T18:20:24Z Fare: basically throwing away some CPU for the sake of latency
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2014-04-21T18:24:57Z axion: segv-: i can't seem to find d-c-s in the api...
2014-04-21T18:25:08Z segv-: axion: it's not in the (public) api
2014-04-21T18:25:36Z segv-: but pomo's quite stable at this point, i wouldn't worry about it disappearing too soon
2014-04-21T18:25:56Z axion: are you the maintainer?
2014-04-21T18:25:59Z segv-: nope
2014-04-21T18:26:15Z axion: where can i find information on this function?
2014-04-21T18:26:26Z segv-: postmodern/postmodern/table.lisp, line 25
2014-04-21T18:26:32Z axion: k thanks
2014-04-21T18:26:43Z segv-: (line 25 in my copy, but i've got some changes compared to upstream. M-. is your friend)
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2014-04-21T18:26:52Z axion: hehe, vim here
2014-04-21T18:26:56Z axion: but i get the idea
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2014-04-21T18:29:09Z segv-: axion: the maintainer (Marijn Haverbeke) does not hang out on irc, he does however follow the postmodern-devel@common-lisp.net mailing list
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2014-04-21T18:34:07Z mathrick: <jackdaniel> by hand? i remember we had 8086 with switches in lab at uni <-- ever tried writing your own microcode? We did that at the CPU arch lab for the homegrown CPU (the first lecture was constructing the ALU on the blackboard from ~25 gates), loads of fun
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2014-04-21T20:22:28Z jackdaniel: mathrick: idd sounds like loads of fun, sadly i didn't
2014-04-21T20:22:34Z jackdaniel: :)
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2014-04-21T20:44:09Z mathrick: jackdaniel: it's very instructive because microcode is *not* code. It has no arrow of time or sequence really, and cycles are only very weak approximation of something like time. So that's the real point where computation happens in a way that's fundamentally different from just translating from one representation of code to another, which is what happens when you compile to anything down to and including machine code
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2014-04-21T20:47:05Z jackdaniel: mathrick: to be honest, ive googled for term "microcode" after your first statement, to be sure i understand you correctly :D
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2014-04-21T20:48:21Z mathrick: jackdaniel: yeah, I'm refering to implementing machine instructions themselves. Ie. how do you add "mov" or "jne" to the CPU?
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2014-04-21T20:49:00Z jackdaniel: yes, i know that now, if googling wouldn't help me, i would have asked
2014-04-21T20:49:35Z jackdaniel: as i said, sounds like loads of fun
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2014-04-21T20:50:10Z H4ns: jackdaniel: i'd agree that it is instructive and challenging, but it is also very tedious.
2014-04-21T20:50:27Z jackdaniel: H4ns: im dont denying that part
2014-04-21T20:50:46Z H4ns: jackdaniel: of course, it can be more fun when you use lisp to help you write your microcode.
2014-04-21T20:50:53Z mathrick: H4ns: sure, so is designing a CPU. But the machine we did it it on ("W machine") was explicitly trivial and minimal to make it possible
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2014-04-21T20:51:14Z mathrick: but I'm really happy I had that lab, because it made me understand how a CPU actually works
2014-04-21T20:51:23Z mathrick: something I could never really grasp before
2014-04-21T20:51:30Z H4ns: mathrick: too few people actually know that, i agree.
2014-04-21T20:51:55Z mathrick: and a minimal ALU is really 25 gates, it's not a complex circuit by any means
2014-04-21T20:52:20Z mathrick: (fun fact: CPU built on gates with 0 latency wouldn't work)
2014-04-21T20:52:38Z H4ns: i had my share of this fun when working on the vhdl conversion of the secd implementation (https://github.com/hanshuebner/secd/blob/master/secd-microcode.txt).
2014-04-21T20:52:41Z mathrick: latency is actually critical to having computation
2014-04-21T20:52:58Z jackdaniel notes to himself, to try to implement simple cpu on his zynq's fpga
2014-04-21T20:53:20Z H4ns: jackdaniel: there are loads of starting points for that, of course.
2014-04-21T20:53:25Z mathrick: H4ns: secd?
2014-04-21T20:53:42Z Bike: i really would like to use some kind of lispy hdl but the vendor lock in is incredible :(
2014-04-21T20:54:06Z H4ns: mathrick: it is a classic stack machine architecture used for teaching functional programming.
2014-04-21T20:54:23Z mathrick: HDLs are black magic to me, I've never worked on anything approaching actual CPU design, so I never learnt any tools
2014-04-21T20:54:28Z mathrick: H4ns: ah
2014-04-21T20:54:46Z H4ns: Bike: right.  you need to shy away thinking about the implications if you intend to do anything with fpgas.
2014-04-21T20:54:48Z mathrick: we just did our CPUs by hand by drawing gates :)
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2014-04-21T20:55:25Z Bike: mathrick: i'm not sure if that's better or worse than my modern class. i mean we still learned gates and shit obviously, but the actual instantiation was compiled verilog
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2014-04-21T20:55:39Z Bike: which was kind of funny, since i thought an hdl would be "as close to the metal as possible"
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2014-04-21T20:56:04Z jackdaniel: conversation becomes really interesting, but im very sleep, so good night all
2014-04-21T20:56:12Z mathrick: Bike: I dunno, I don't think you can truly understand a CPU until you have a firm idea of what it takes to make a minimal one from discrete elements
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2014-04-21T20:56:21Z H4ns: Bike: it is depressing how much logic is between your logic and the actual metal :)
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2014-04-21T20:56:45Z Bike: H4ns: it would be less depressing if it wasn't proprietary. i tried to dig into the ide, and man, there is some dumb bullshit.
2014-04-21T20:56:57Z mathrick: there's something very visceral about drawing those 25 gates and realising that that's it, it's what an ALU absolutely needs to have to work
2014-04-21T20:57:02Z Bike: the 'binaries' folder had twenty five or so copies of the same file with different names, each of which did something different
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2014-04-21T20:57:09Z Bike: mathrick: we still did that, i mean, just not on the fpga.
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2014-04-21T20:58:38Z mathrick: Bike: yeah, our CPU arch never had any metal either. It was designing it on the blackboard (actual blackboard with actual chalk), then once that was done, it was labs with software simulators of several versions of the architecture (differing in details such as number of internal and external registers, number of memory cells, stack size)
2014-04-21T20:58:53Z Bike: haha, there you go then
2014-04-21T20:59:18Z mathrick: and man, it's challenging to write a calculator in 64 bytes of code + RAM
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2014-04-21T20:59:22Z Bike: that lambda-the-ultimate paper mentions they actually fabbed some for a class, which is kinda neat
2014-04-21T21:00:23Z mathrick: but it's very satisfying when you make it work and you start by writing the "add" and "mul" instructions
2014-04-21T21:01:25Z mathrick: http://sd.keepcalm-o-matic.co.uk/i/keep-calm-and-czyt-wys-wei-il-3.png <-- related, "czyt wys wei il" is the sequence to end the last tick and start a new clock cycle (the mnemonics are in Polish)
2014-04-21T21:01:45Z mathrick: I was delighted to find that design
2014-04-21T21:02:20Z mathrick: I can no longer remeber what wei or il do, but I still remember the chant
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2014-04-21T21:07:13Z mathrick: Bike: I dunno if you ever did that, but figuring out how to avoid adding an extra register by using the latency of the data lines between the memory and the accumulator to keep one more byte alive on the clock's edge was almost perversely fun
2014-04-21T21:07:36Z Bike: heh, no i didn't.
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2014-04-21T21:09:08Z mathrick: it really tells you a lot about how x86 happened for example. Because you can make mul that requires two internal registers, and takes 2 cycles, or one register and 3 cycles
2014-04-21T21:09:25Z mathrick: and that's why 8086 came with cycle timing tables
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2014-04-21T21:10:30Z jasom: mathrick: even RISC-ish cpus with multiply operations often don't have single-cycle multiply
2014-04-21T21:11:09Z mathrick: jasom: yeah, mul is normally dependent on the size of the multiplier anyway, but it still change the scaling constant
2014-04-21T21:11:24Z mathrick: *it may
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2014-04-21T21:12:12Z jasom: IIRC the original MIPS was so hard-core "1 ALU cycle per instruction only" that multiply and divide weren't present
2014-04-21T21:12:15Z mathrick: so your cheaper CPU will have slower mul because it shaves off the expensive silicon that'd be needed to add that extra register the faster and more expensive version has
2014-04-21T21:12:51Z mathrick: jasom: yeah, that's kinda cheating. It merely shifts the responsibility on the programmer
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2014-04-21T21:14:07Z jasom: the MIPS philosophy was "Now that we have compilers, we don't need microcode; just expose the microcode to the compiler"
2014-04-21T21:14:33Z mathrick: yeah, it makes some sense
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2014-04-21T21:14:48Z mathrick: though it also makes it harder to paper over past decisions
2014-04-21T21:15:08Z mathrick: like SPARC's NOPs which you have to add to hide the unconditional prefetcher
2014-04-21T21:15:39Z Bike: branch delay slots warrant some kind of emoticon but i'm not sure which one. :| maybe
2014-04-21T21:15:51Z jasom: and mips eventually added a SSNOP which stalled all pipelines
2014-04-21T21:16:11Z jasom: They couldn't have NOP stall all the pipelines since it went in delay slots
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2014-04-21T21:16:51Z jasom had to do the arithmetic for figuring out how many SSNOP instructions to put after cache management instructions since implementing a "sync" instruction wasn't the RISC way
2014-04-21T21:17:31Z mathrick: that reminds me of the hack linux had (still has?) to implement atomic operations on SPARC
2014-04-21T21:17:38Z mathrick: because it's apparently possible
2014-04-21T21:17:41Z jasom: when the forumula involes entering -1 (yes, negative one) for the pipeline stage you care about...
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2014-04-21T21:18:02Z mathrick: the arch doesn't have atomic instructions as such, but there's a half-primitive you can use to make them
2014-04-21T21:18:20Z mathrick: well, old SPARCs. newer ones added it I believe
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2014-04-21T21:20:04Z jasom: On some MIPS cpus it was impossible to safely disable interrupts with software (they would be disabled upon entry to an ISR, so you could implement a SWI to disable interrupts, but you couldn't write to the register that had the interrupt enable bit if interrupts were enabled, since it had other fields in it that ISRs sometimes had to modify)
2014-04-21T21:20:46Z jasom: they later added a disable interrupt instruction, which solved that problem
2014-04-21T21:21:30Z nyef_: There's also the fun possibility of taking an interrupt in the shadow of setting the disable bit: When you read back the control register within the interrupt handler, it would show that interrupts were disabled.
2014-04-21T21:22:10Z nyef_: If you unconditionally enabled interrupts because "the interrupt handler is running, so interrupts MUST have been enabled", you could screw things up.
2014-04-21T21:22:13Z jasom: nyef_: that can be solved by not reading until N instructions into the ISR (which you had to do anyway for other registers)
2014-04-21T21:23:10Z nyef_: Sure, and N can be very very low, like one or two instructions. Possibly even none, for all I remember.
2014-04-21T21:23:11Z jasom: "pipeline hazards can be solved with a sufficiently smart compiler, so we won't solve them in hardware"
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2014-04-21T21:23:48Z nyef_: Unfortunately, overly-clever programmers can defeat the compiler.
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2014-04-21T21:39:52Z dandersen: Would you say it is easier to implement and optimize Lisp compared to C?
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2014-04-21T22:02:30Z jasom: dandersen: lisp is a lot bigger; relative to it's size its fairly straightfoward to implement though
2014-04-21T22:03:36Z jasom: dandersen: reading in lisp code is very easy
2014-04-21T22:04:02Z dandersen: I guess I'm not really sure what's there to optimize about C code, but optimization seems important
2014-04-21T22:04:09Z dandersen: I've always written Lisp, really
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2014-04-21T22:06:07Z Bike: branching, aliasing, lotsa stuff
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2014-04-21T22:09:01Z oGMo: most of the same stuff as lisp, really
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2014-04-21T22:23:30Z oleo: how do i prevent #1=blah stuff appearing in print output ?
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2014-04-21T22:24:04Z oGMo: make sure *print-circle* is nil
2014-04-21T22:24:53Z oGMo: though you will end up in an infinite loop oro possibly overflow the stack if you print a circular structure
2014-04-21T22:25:02Z oGMo: "or"
2014-04-21T22:25:44Z oleo: yes that's why i set it to to globally in my listener, and i bound a local one around my defun but it still prints with #1=blah stuff....
2014-04-21T22:25:53Z oleo: to T*
2014-04-21T22:26:14Z oleo: that's what i don't get (let ((*print-circle* nil)......
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2014-04-21T22:26:56Z mathrick: <oGMo> most of the same stuff as lisp, really <-- not necessarily. A lot of of Lisp is "how to make the high-level, DWIM mechanisms go fast". A lot of C is "how to make the low-level, no holds barred mechanisms not defeat any interesting optimisations the compiler could make"
2014-04-21T22:27:36Z oGMo: mathrick: it's still most of the same stuff, plus some high-level optimization
2014-04-21T22:28:03Z oleo: i even bound that around the call to the fun....still no go as long as the global one is set....
2014-04-21T22:28:40Z oGMo: oleo: you're sure you're binding CL:*PRINT-CIRCLE*? you're not doing something that would force it otherwise? etc
2014-04-21T22:28:47Z oleo: nope
2014-04-21T22:28:53Z oleo: yes i mean i'm sure...
2014-04-21T22:28:58Z oleo: i'm not doing anything else...
2014-04-21T22:29:23Z oleo: just bound them around the defun and around the call, without effect, as long as the global one is set i don't get any effect...
2014-04-21T22:29:30Z oleo: when i unset the global one all is fine again....
2014-04-21T22:29:59Z oleo: must be another thing wrt threads or so....
2014-04-21T22:30:16Z oGMo: errr, so you _are_ doing something that would force it otherwise
2014-04-21T22:30:47Z oleo: no i just use the listener..., in the listener *print-circle* is T globally....
2014-04-21T22:30:50Z oGMo: if you're calling another thread, that's not going to do anything
2014-04-21T22:31:08Z oleo: i'm not calling another thread, the listener itsels is a thread....
2014-04-21T22:31:11Z oleo: itself*
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2014-04-21T22:41:01Z oleo: how do you alias one fun to another ?
2014-04-21T22:41:12Z oleo: say subset == powerset
2014-04-21T22:42:58Z brown`: Maybe (setf (symbol-function 'foo) (symbol-function 'bar))
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2014-04-21T22:43:37Z oleo: ok
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2014-04-21T22:46:43Z nyef_: (defun subset (&rest args) (apply #'powerset args)) ?
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2014-04-21T22:48:12Z oleo: hmm, i didn't use &rest tho....
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2014-04-21T22:48:56Z oleo: and i didn't use apply either....
2014-04-21T22:48:59Z Bike: doesn't matter, it's just so it takes whatever args powerset does
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2014-04-21T22:49:13Z nyef_: You can do it more directly if you actually know how many args are involved.
2014-04-21T22:49:43Z oleo: (defun subsets (s) (powerset s)) ; s takes all args....
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2014-04-21T22:51:43Z nyef_: ... Only works if POWERSET only takes one arg.
2014-04-21T22:53:34Z oleo: erm yes it's one arg only....
2014-04-21T22:53:51Z oleo: i didn't intend for multiple args yet....
2014-04-21T22:54:08Z nyef_: Right, as I said, you can do it the direct route if you know how many parameters are involved, but the &REST / APPLY thing always works.
2014-04-21T22:54:36Z nyef_: And just copying over the FDEFINITION also always works but won't pick up redefinitions.
2014-04-21T22:55:29Z nyef_: And then you start getting into excessive-cuteness territory, such as (in SBCL) arranging for the two symbols to share an FDEFN.
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2014-04-21T22:55:54Z BitPuffin: that's odd
2014-04-21T22:55:57Z BitPuffin: with the SBCL REPL
2014-04-21T22:56:08Z BitPuffin: if I use read, it won't print whatever I printed before that
2014-04-21T22:56:32Z nyef_: BitPuffin: lisppaste your transcript, please?
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2014-04-21T22:56:44Z BitPuffin: I mean if I (print "foo") (read) foo won't be printed until after the read
2014-04-21T22:56:47Z BitPuffin: nyef_: sure
2014-04-21T22:56:57Z pjb: Of course.
2014-04-21T22:57:04Z pjb: You didn't flush anything!
2014-04-21T22:57:16Z nyef_: Ah, right. Line-buffered output.
2014-04-21T22:57:26Z nyef_: Nevermind, I guess I don't need to see your transcript after all.
2014-04-21T22:57:45Z BitPuffin: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142238
2014-04-21T22:57:50Z pjb: For interactive stuff, use *query-io* and use finish-output.
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2014-04-21T22:58:54Z nyef_: "What is your name?" "Sir Brian of Bell." "What two lowercase alphabetic characters are not acceptable as flags to the BSD version of ``ls''?" "Oh, #!@$%^%@#$#"
2014-04-21T22:59:51Z BitPuffin: hahaha
2014-04-21T22:59:59Z BitPuffin: well the book I'm reading doesn't flush
2014-04-21T23:00:02Z BitPuffin: but it's using clisp
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2014-04-21T23:00:22Z nyef_: clisp specifically, or is it aimed at Common Lisp?
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2014-04-21T23:00:38Z nyef_: (Which book?)
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2014-04-21T23:00:55Z joshe: oh come on
2014-04-21T23:01:10Z joshe: there's like 7 chars which aren't valid flags :)
2014-04-21T23:01:17Z pjb: In the case of gnu ls, -jJkKMOPVWyYz are free.
2014-04-21T23:01:20Z nyef_ laughs.
2014-04-21T23:01:29Z nyef_: I think that just proves my point.
2014-04-21T23:01:51Z joshe: bejvwyz
2014-04-21T23:01:54Z nyef_: Oh, wait. I didn't have a point, other than that I recognized the Monty Python reference. Nevermind.
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2014-04-21T23:02:43Z jasom: BitPuffin: one odd thing from the unix world to the lisp world is that lisp tends to emit the newline conditionally before printing, wherase unix tends to print the newline unconditionally after printing
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2014-04-21T23:03:18Z jasom: clhs ~&
2014-04-21T23:03:18Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cac.htm
2014-04-21T23:03:20Z nyef_ usually prints unconditionally after printing, but that's with FORMAT, not PRINT.
2014-04-21T23:03:24Z nyef_: clhs ~%
2014-04-21T23:03:24Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cab.htm
2014-04-21T23:03:37Z nyef_: clhs terpri
2014-04-21T23:03:37Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_terpri.htm
2014-04-21T23:03:50Z nyef_: What's the other one, the conditional-newline one?
2014-04-21T23:04:12Z jasom: clhs fresh-line
2014-04-21T23:04:12Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_terpri.htm
2014-04-21T23:04:18Z nyef_: Oh, fresh-line, same page as TERPRI.
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2014-04-21T23:06:56Z BitPuffin: nyef_: it's land of lisp
2014-04-21T23:07:03Z BitPuffin: nyef_: it is aimed at common lisp
2014-04-21T23:07:09Z BitPuffin: nyef_: but the compiler it asks you to use is clisp
2014-04-21T23:07:18Z nyef_: Ah, okay.
2014-04-21T23:07:18Z BitPuffin: I however chose sbcl because that's what I'll be using anyway
2014-04-21T23:07:57Z BitPuffin: jasom: so lisp is more lazy with its printing?
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2014-04-21T23:08:22Z jasom: BitPuffin: it can be; lisp in general has a bit of a hodge-podge history, so parts of it will use the lazy newline printing and parts wont
2014-04-21T23:08:25Z nyef_: For various reasons, I have never been inclined to buy, or even take seriously, lisp books with acronyms of "LoL".
2014-04-21T23:08:39Z Bike: C has output buffering also
2014-04-21T23:09:02Z jasom: unix pretty much never does the lazy newline printing, (even shell prompts that could really benefit from it don't) so it's a source of surprise for many coming from unix backgrounds
2014-04-21T23:09:08Z Bike: in fact i'm pretty sure i've seen the "where's my output" question on ##c
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2014-04-21T23:09:55Z BitPuffin: nyef_: it's an awesome book with an awesome music video
2014-04-21T23:10:02Z jasom: Bike: but if you print twice, the first print will show up, which is confusing; a C equivalent would be to use a function that terminates the print with a newline, which flushes line-buffered outputs
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2014-04-21T23:10:18Z BitPuffin: yeah C won't print unless there is a newline iirc
2014-04-21T23:10:25Z BitPuffin: so I assumed it was the same here
2014-04-21T23:10:30Z BitPuffin: so what I have to do is print twice?
2014-04-21T23:10:42Z jasom: BitPuffin: or just (terpri) or (finish-output) or whatever
2014-04-21T23:10:42Z nyef_: No, insert a (TERPRI) before (READ).
2014-04-21T23:10:57Z jasom: or (fresh-line) if you prefer
2014-04-21T23:10:58Z BitPuffin: hmm
2014-04-21T23:11:00Z nyef_: (FINISH-OUTPUT) would have your input on the same line.
2014-04-21T23:11:06Z BitPuffin: so many options :'(
2014-04-21T23:11:07Z nyef_: Yeah, TERPRI or FRESH-LINE.
2014-04-21T23:11:08Z pjb: Terpri won't do, no anymore than a \n.  You need to fucking flush!
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2014-04-21T23:11:37Z BitPuffin: gonna eat
2014-04-21T23:11:37Z nyef_: pjb: Terminal streams are merely line-buffered, a TERPRI or FINISH-OUTPUT should suffice for this case.
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2014-04-21T23:11:43Z BitPuffin: will probably have questions after
2014-04-21T23:11:45Z BitPuffin: :P
2014-04-21T23:12:08Z pjb: nyef_: remember me, which is the CL function that let me know a stream is connected to a terminal?
2014-04-21T23:12:10Z nyef_: We'll be here... unless we're not.
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2014-04-21T23:13:01Z nyef_: clhs interactive-stream-p
2014-04-21T23:13:01Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_intera.htm
2014-04-21T23:14:06Z pjb: "interactive stream n. a stream on which it makes sense to perform interactive querying. See Section 21.1.1.1.3 (Interactive Streams)."
2014-04-21T23:14:06Z pjb:  
2014-04-21T23:14:11Z pjb: Totally unrelated to a terminal.
2014-04-21T23:15:28Z nyef_: ... wow. There's no way to control INTERACTIVE-STREAM-P in Issue STREAM-DEFINITION-BY-USER.
2014-04-21T23:16:42Z Bike: yeah, i think someone was confused about how to open a terminal once. drmeister maybe
2014-04-21T23:17:05Z pillton: Speaking of wow. How come REALPART and IMAGPART of complex numbers aren't places?
2014-04-21T23:17:17Z pjb: numbers are immutable in CL.
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2014-04-21T23:18:06Z pillton: pjb: Oh ta.
2014-04-21T23:19:02Z pjb: You can always (shadow '(complex realpart imagpart)) (defstruct (complex (:constructor complex (realpart imagpart)) (:conc-name)) realpart imagpart)
2014-04-21T23:20:07Z oGMo: or just store the number someplace other things reference, which is what most code does i'd think
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2014-04-21T23:21:02Z oGMo: i don't think most regular math functions would work on the struct
2014-04-21T23:21:26Z oGMo: shadow them and lose any optimization
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2014-04-21T23:22:21Z pjb: Of course not.
2014-04-21T23:22:38Z pjb: (shadow '+) (defun + (&rest args) …)
2014-04-21T23:23:04Z nyef_: This, of course, is a lot of work to go through to avoid consing a new COMPLEX every so often.
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2014-04-21T23:23:29Z pjb: I'm not the one asking for ridiculous things, I'm just saying how you can implement them in CL.
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2014-04-21T23:23:48Z Xach: A beautiful symmetry of ridiculousness.
2014-04-21T23:23:49Z pillton: nyef_: That is the problem I had over the weekend. stassats fixed it though. My consing went down from 2.5G to 65k.
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2014-04-21T23:24:30Z oGMo: vectors don't store it inline (or whatever)?
2014-04-21T23:24:45Z oGMo: does for double-float on SBCL which helps a _lot_
2014-04-21T23:25:20Z pillton: I was doing this: (setf (aref a i j) (complex (aref b i j)))
2014-04-21T23:25:28Z oGMo: ah, yes, exactly then
2014-04-21T23:25:46Z oGMo: er
2014-04-21T23:26:00Z pillton: Oh sorry. That didn't cons on SBCL. It was this (setf (aref a i j) (coerce (aref b ij) '(complex double-float))).
2014-04-21T23:26:08Z oGMo: ah
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2014-04-21T23:26:59Z nyef_: Ouch. I'm having enough trouble with TRUNCATE these days. /-:
2014-04-21T23:27:27Z pjb: You can even have a 0 dimensional array: (let ((a (make-array '() :element-type 'complex :initial-element (complex 1 2)))) (setf (aref a)  (complex  (1+ (realpart (aref a))) (1+ (imagpart (aref a))))) (aref a))
2014-04-21T23:27:28Z oGMo: trouble?
2014-04-21T23:28:22Z nyef_: I've used the 0-dimensional array trick before. Great fun.
2014-04-21T23:28:53Z nyef_: oGMo: Yeah, I have no integer-divide instruction and I must CL:TRUNCATE.
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2014-04-21T23:29:16Z nyef_: (I think it's similar to "I have no mouth and I must scream".)
2014-04-21T23:29:17Z oGMo: nyef_: i thought that was equivalent
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2014-04-21T23:29:39Z pjb: (defun integer/ (a b) (truncate a b))
2014-04-21T23:29:48Z oGMo: yeah
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2014-04-21T23:36:46Z oleo: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142239
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2014-04-22T00:08:14Z cmill: could someone please help me in completing my Decrypter (via brute force) for a Caesar's Cipher (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesar_cipher)
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2014-04-22T00:10:10Z |3b| supposes installing bsd-games and shelling out to /usr/games/caesar wouldn't count :p
2014-04-22T00:10:45Z nyef_: I'm suddenly reminded of old-school GCC #pragma behavior.
2014-04-22T00:11:50Z pjb: cmill: http://paste.lisp.org/+31R5
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2014-04-22T01:57:57Z ltbarcly: anyone aware of a CL suffix array implementation?  Possibly a wrapper around one of the various C implementations?
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2014-04-22T04:18:42Z BitPuffin: my gawd
2014-04-22T04:18:48Z BitPuffin: lisp is so easy to serialize
2014-04-22T04:19:12Z Zhivago: I guess you haven't tried to serialize a function with a lexical closure yet ...
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2014-04-22T04:19:44Z BitPuffin: Zhivago: nope :D
2014-04-22T04:19:56Z BitPuffin: that's not really something you'd serialize usually though?
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2014-04-22T04:20:10Z pillton: BitPuffin: I would like to be able to do that.
2014-04-22T04:20:25Z oGMo: shameless plug, conspack, shameless plug
2014-04-22T04:20:26Z pillton: (cluster-map #'(lambda (x) ...) lots-of-data)
2014-04-22T04:20:50Z oGMo: and yes it is easy to serialize.. but fast and small takes a slight amount of work
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2014-04-22T04:21:10Z oGMo: you COULD serialize closures if the CL had some kind of extension, but i don't know of any that do
2014-04-22T04:21:46Z BitPuffin: hmm
2014-04-22T04:21:48Z BitPuffin: yes
2014-04-22T04:21:50Z BitPuffin: if only
2014-04-22T04:21:58Z BitPuffin: too bad nobody here has made one
2014-04-22T04:22:04Z BitPuffin: that would just be so convenient
2014-04-22T04:22:29Z oGMo: is that something you want daily? i dunno
2014-04-22T04:22:35Z akshatj: nydel, O/
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2014-04-22T04:35:43Z BitPuffin: oGMo: I like how you were just lurking until someone mentioned something where you could plug yourself :P
2014-04-22T04:36:05Z oGMo: BitPuffin: pretty much!
2014-04-22T04:36:07Z oGMo: ;)
2014-04-22T04:36:15Z BitPuffin: :)
2014-04-22T04:36:37Z oGMo: i actually happened to switch back over and see you talking about something i'm working on
2014-04-22T04:39:28Z oleo: morning
2014-04-22T04:39:59Z oGMo: evening
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2014-04-22T04:41:42Z BitPuffin: morning
2014-04-22T04:41:48Z BitPuffin: oGMo: haha, nice
2014-04-22T04:43:00Z oleo: the collector monad!
2014-04-22T04:43:02Z oleo: lol
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2014-04-22T04:43:28Z axion: anyone know how to wpecify a LIMIT clause for SELECT-DAO in postmodern?
2014-04-22T04:43:33Z axion: specify*
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2014-04-22T04:46:48Z axion: nevermind, seems I have to use QUERY-DAO for this scenario
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2014-04-22T07:38:29Z BitPuffin: if you keep pushing things in to the front of a lisp will it ever garbage collect the entries behind if you are using it solely as an alist
2014-04-22T07:38:30Z BitPuffin: ?
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2014-04-22T07:39:29Z H4ns: BitPuffin: no.  things that are referenced are not collected.
2014-04-22T07:39:46Z H4ns: BitPuffin: the garbage collector cannot guess your usage of the list.
2014-04-22T07:41:02Z BitPuffin: thought so
2014-04-22T07:41:15Z BitPuffin: H4ns: is there any built in mechanism to dedup an alist?
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2014-04-22T07:44:40Z H4ns: BitPuffin: remove-duplicates, but it is expensive.  i'd recommend a hash table.
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2014-04-22T07:49:14Z BitPuffin: H4ns: yeah
2014-04-22T07:49:34Z BitPuffin: H4ns: I guess alists are nice when there is no performance constraints
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2014-04-22T07:50:41Z H4ns: BitPuffin: i never use them and don't know why they would be nice.
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2014-04-22T07:54:16Z loke: I use alists if the number of elements in them is in the single digita
2014-04-22T07:54:18Z loke: digits
2014-04-22T07:54:32Z H4ns: i use plists for that.
2014-04-22T07:55:53Z loke: H4ns: matter of taste I guess... Plists have less consing, sure, but I just find that alists are easier to manually deal with (i.e. it prints nicer :-) )
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2014-04-22T08:19:44Z jackdaniel: I'm experimenting with events, and i have a doubt, could someone look and advice me? (doubt in comments) http://ix.io/bR5
2014-04-22T08:21:19Z H4ns: jackdaniel: if you want to avoid accidentally making functions accessible to users, put them into a separate package
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2014-04-22T08:21:46Z H4ns: jackdaniel: it is not smart to avoid making them visible, though.  for example, they cannot be traced easily that way.
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2014-04-22T08:23:44Z jackdaniel: H4ns: but the user is one, who will use (defactionX ...) and (fire-upX ...), so they will be called in his very package
2014-04-22T08:24:00Z jackdaniel: therefore defun will define them there, isn't it?
2014-04-22T08:24:10Z Zhivago: I'd recommend a combination of the two.
2014-04-22T08:24:28Z Zhivago: Use the defun of the first option, and the registration of the second.
2014-04-22T08:24:59Z jackdaniel: so user will be able to redefine function, but action will be still accessible?
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2014-04-22T08:27:28Z Zhivago: Yes. It has the least magic.
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2014-04-22T08:27:58Z Zhivago: It also allows the user to dynamically generate their own functions and register them if they're into that.
2014-04-22T08:29:21Z jackdaniel: well, that's the point (if i understand you correctly) - defaction and fire-up are made as a user interface
2014-04-22T08:30:51Z jackdaniel: or api, to be more correct
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2014-04-22T08:34:15Z jackdaniel: ok, thanks for comments
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2014-04-22T08:34:39Z jackdaniel: :)
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2014-04-22T09:13:09Z dim: loke: plists and alists have the exact same cons cost IIRC
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2014-04-22T10:58:19Z leo2007: how do you quickly jump to say 4.2.3 in the spec?
2014-04-22T10:59:29Z nyef: clhs 4.2.3?
2014-04-22T10:59:29Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for 4.2.3?.
2014-04-22T10:59:31Z nyef: clhs 4.2.3
2014-04-22T10:59:31Z specbot: Type Specifiers: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/04_bc.htm
2014-04-22T10:59:40Z nyef: That spec?
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2014-04-22T11:00:38Z splittist: leo2007: see also http://xach.com/lisp/clhs-lookup/
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2014-04-22T11:03:09Z leo2007: nyef: thanks
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2014-04-22T11:08:17Z Xach: leo2007: another thing i use is http://l1sp.org/cl/4.2.3
2014-04-22T11:08:28Z Xach: i use that for linking easily to many things
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2014-04-22T11:10:20Z leo2007: splittist and Xach: thanks
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2014-04-22T11:20:25Z hitecnologys: How does one download files using drakma? I've tried doing HTTP-REQUEST first and then writing byte vector from response to file but this way requires putting the entire file in memory.
2014-04-22T11:21:37Z z0d: hitecnologys: can't you specify a stream to write it to?
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2014-04-22T11:22:37Z H4ns: hitecnologys: look at the manual.  "Reading the response from a stream"
2014-04-22T11:22:49Z H4ns: hitecnologys: "Drakma can return a stream to the application so that the reply is not completely buffered in memory first."
2014-04-22T11:23:00Z Shinmera: setting :want-stream T will give you the stream
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2014-04-22T11:24:11Z hitecnologys: Oh crap, I've completely forgot about that thing. Thanks z0d, H4ns and Shinmera, sorry for bothering.
2014-04-22T11:25:56Z nyef: "Documentation: Not actually useful for reading for yourself, more for being able to point to when someone else asks questions."
2014-04-22T11:26:59Z hitecnologys: Oh yeah, that one is true.
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2014-04-22T11:27:46Z nyef: "more for support than illumination"
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2014-04-22T12:10:30Z hitecnologys: stassats: MPD:UPDATE takes path as an optional argument. However, it doesn't work if I don't pass it. What's the point of optionality then? Wouldn't it be better to write &optional (path "/") if so?
2014-04-22T12:10:44Z stassats: no idea
2014-04-22T12:11:09Z stassats: do you think i even know what mpd:update is doing?
2014-04-22T12:11:34Z hitecnologys: It updates the DB.
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2014-04-22T12:12:13Z stassats: ok, but should update without parameters just update everything? maybe that has changed
2014-04-22T12:12:55Z hitecnologys: Yeah, I guess it should. Maybe it has been changed since your last checked it but now it doesn't work without parameters for sure.
2014-04-22T12:13:21Z nyef: Is there a way to bind a default for path? That might make more sense than a default of "everything".
2014-04-22T12:13:24Z stassats: don't use it without parameters then
2014-04-22T12:13:26Z stassats: easy!
2014-04-22T12:13:29Z hitecnologys: And you also have CHECK-ARGS there whcih, I assume, checks if path is string.
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2014-04-22T12:13:51Z nyef: minion: Advice on assume?
2014-04-22T12:13:51Z minion: You can't expect automated advice for everything.
2014-04-22T12:13:54Z nyef: Aww.
2014-04-22T12:14:06Z hitecnologys: So &optional path and then checking type for string looks like overkill for me.
2014-04-22T12:14:13Z hitecnologys: to me*
2014-04-22T12:14:42Z stassats: that was, like, 6 or 7 years ago
2014-04-22T12:14:50Z hitecnologys: I see.
2014-04-22T12:15:39Z stassats: check with the mpd spec
2014-04-22T12:15:50Z stassats: (don't tell me there isn't one)
2014-04-22T12:16:36Z hitecnologys: There is one.
2014-04-22T12:17:01Z hitecnologys: There it is: http://www.musicpd.org/doc/protocol/
2014-04-22T12:17:42Z hitecnologys: Yes, URI is optional.
2014-04-22T12:18:12Z hitecnologys: So, CHECK-ARGS causes this then.
2014-04-22T12:18:24Z stassats: (or null string) then
2014-04-22T12:18:39Z stassats: but, (send
2014-04-22T12:18:46Z stassats: "update" path) wouldn't work then
2014-04-22T12:18:57Z stassats: so, (if path (send "update") (send "update" path))
2014-04-22T12:18:59Z hitecnologys: Send will send NIL then, yeah. Not good.
2014-04-22T12:19:10Z stassats: does that work? i don't want to update the whole database
2014-04-22T12:19:18Z hitecnologys: Wait a sec.
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2014-04-22T12:19:28Z stassats: and reversed legs
2014-04-22T12:19:40Z stassats: (if path (send "update" path) (send "update"))
2014-04-22T12:20:17Z hitecnologys: Yep, it does work.
2014-04-22T12:20:22Z stassats: and the check-args macro looks fishy
2014-04-22T12:20:27Z hitecnologys: This one and (or null string) thing.
2014-04-22T12:20:43Z axion: I thought MPD monitored the state of directories and automatically updates parts of the FS as needed...at least it does for me
2014-04-22T12:20:57Z hitecnologys: axion: nope, that would waste *lots* of CPU power.
2014-04-22T12:21:09Z stassats: it wouldn't
2014-04-22T12:21:11Z hitecnologys: stassats: indeed it does.
2014-04-22T12:21:18Z hitecnologys: Why not?
2014-04-22T12:21:21Z axion: No it wouldn't. It uses gamin i believe
2014-04-22T12:21:40Z stassats: hitecnologys: because it only updates when something has changed
2014-04-22T12:22:01Z hitecnologys: Ah, right. Silly me.
2014-04-22T12:22:19Z stassats: i think check-args is just a way to more checking on strings
2014-04-22T12:23:10Z stassats: it also performs trimming, maybe not the best idea, but it works
2014-04-22T12:23:15Z hitecnologys: It seems to me that it doesn some kind of processing on them.
2014-04-22T12:23:20Z stassats: it also performs quoting
2014-04-22T12:23:48Z hitecnologys: Hmm.
2014-04-22T12:24:10Z stassats: i'll deal with it later
2014-04-22T12:24:27Z stassats: first, i want to figure out why intern* fails on ARM
2014-04-22T12:24:40Z hitecnologys: I'll try doing some refactoring too, if you don't mind.
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2014-04-22T12:25:12Z stassats: i do mind, i don't want to review it
2014-04-22T12:25:21Z hitecnologys: I see.
2014-04-22T12:25:38Z stassats: if it works, screw re-factoring
2014-04-22T12:27:39Z hitecnologys: It does drop connections to MPD sometimes for no particular reason, though. Does this problem happen only to me?
2014-04-22T12:28:38Z stassats: i never used it for long-lived connections
2014-04-22T12:28:45Z stassats: it may need keep-alive or something
2014-04-22T12:28:58Z hitecnologys: I see.
2014-04-22T12:29:05Z hitecnologys: Let's check the specs.
2014-04-22T12:31:02Z hitecnologys: Well, I see no such thing there. MPD doesn't seem to require keep-alive packets.
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2014-04-22T12:33:46Z hitecnologys: Maybe usocket does that. I had some problems with usocket in the past.
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2014-04-22T12:34:45Z stassats: tcp should have keep-alive of itself
2014-04-22T12:35:26Z hitecnologys: Hmm. Indeed.
2014-04-22T12:35:43Z stassats: just reconnect on a drop?
2014-04-22T12:36:27Z hitecnologys: Yeah, that is exactly what I do now: check if the connection is fine before each command and reconnect, if necessary.
2014-04-22T12:37:20Z stassats: you can send a ping
2014-04-22T12:37:35Z hitecnologys: Via timers?
2014-04-22T12:37:57Z hitecnologys: Sound like a good idea.
2014-04-22T12:38:56Z hitecnologys: Oops, s/Via/With.
2014-04-22T12:39:05Z hitecnologys: Confused meanings.
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2014-04-22T12:48:59Z hitecnologys: I should have checked MPD config first. It has parameter to enable keeping alive TCP clients.
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2014-04-22T13:22:30Z splittist: An  inordinate  amount  of  time  must  be  spent   balancing parentheses,   whether  in  writing  a  LISP  program  or  trying  to understand one.  It is frequently difficult to  determine  where  one expression  ends  and  another  begins.   ... every LISP programmer  knows  the  dubious pleasure  of  laboriously  matching  left  and right parentheses in a
2014-04-22T13:22:30Z splittist: function, when all he knows is that one is missing somewhere!!
2014-04-22T13:23:08Z splittist: MLISP manual, 1970
2014-04-22T13:24:54Z hitecnologys: stassats: I've just found another "bug". "AlbumArtist" field is not supported. You should better put all tags in plist and then assign it to some slot (names TAGS, for example) instead of assigning each tag value to separate slot.
2014-04-22T13:24:59Z Shinmera: I've never had parens balancing issues with paredit + electric-indent
2014-04-22T13:25:34Z Shinmera: Though I suppose it would be a problem without those
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2014-04-22T13:26:16Z Xach: highlighting matches and M-x check-parens gets you a certain distance
2014-04-22T13:26:49Z splittist: Shinmera: I imagine it was more difficult with punch cards. But I don't know whether it was harder than getting infix expressions correct.
2014-04-22T13:27:27Z Shinmera: splittist: A lot of things were more difficult with punch cards. I don't know if parens balancing was one of the major ones.
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2014-04-22T13:28:38Z stassats: hitecnologys: the result would be harder to process
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2014-04-22T13:30:20Z madnificent: Xach: i've received a bug report 21hours ago for jsown and fixed it 16 hours ago.  are those changes going to make it in the next quicklisp release, or in the one after that?
2014-04-22T13:31:03Z Xach: madnificent: If it was 16 hours ago, it will be the next release.
2014-04-22T13:31:09Z Xach: meaning the one coming out today
2014-04-22T13:31:35Z madnificent: Xach: \o/ thanks!
2014-04-22T13:32:12Z hitecnologys: stassats: why?
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2014-04-22T13:33:46Z Shinmera: Woo, QL release
2014-04-22T13:33:57Z axion: wow, it's madnificent
2014-04-22T13:35:36Z j_king: lol, balancing parens. 99 problems, not one is a paren. :p
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2014-04-22T13:39:46Z billstclair: Yes, modern editors have made paren balancing a non-issue, for 40 years now
2014-04-22T13:40:21Z billstclair: Well, 35
2014-04-22T13:40:53Z madnificent: axion: hello!
2014-04-22T13:41:36Z splittist: And here we perhaps get a glimpse of one reason why MLISP is no longer with us: "DISCLAIMER:  For reasons of simplicity, the syntax presented below is slightly different from the one the translator actually uses.  The only  difference is that infix operators do not all have the same precedence."
2014-04-22T13:45:21Z axion: madnificent: hey long time. i use sexml everyday tyvm
2014-04-22T13:46:21Z Xach: splittist: nice
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2014-04-22T14:28:57Z Xach: slyrus: if you subscribe to sbcl-devel, the latest message from me may be of interest. (if you're not subscribed, i can send you the info)
2014-04-22T14:29:41Z stassats: |3b| opened a bug about that
2014-04-22T14:29:59Z Xach: oh, ok.
2014-04-22T14:30:33Z Xach: d'oh, i skimmed the title and didn't realize it applied in this case.
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2014-04-22T14:48:46Z splittist marvels that The Ancients found LISP so elegant when contemporary LISP code seems to be mainly PROG, SETQ and GO
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2014-04-22T14:49:22Z Xach: some ancients were crazy
2014-04-22T14:49:24Z Krystof: ah, but not *every* line needs its own number
2014-04-22T14:49:32Z Krystof: so much better than BASIC
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2014-04-22T15:02:18Z ggole: Consider the alternatives at the time
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2014-04-22T15:11:31Z macdice: like fortran, with no recursion or reentrance and static global storage only
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2014-04-22T15:32:27Z oGMo: macdice: fortran found a new home on gpus
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2014-04-22T16:27:43Z bjorkintosh: oGMo, it did?
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2014-04-22T16:30:24Z oGMo: bjorkintosh: by that description, heh
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2014-04-22T16:48:28Z junkris: for a fresh codebase, would you rather use ITERATE or LOOP constructs ? (or SERIES?)
2014-04-22T16:48:31Z slyrus: Xach: I got it. I actually got bit by that  twice.
2014-04-22T16:48:43Z slyrus: once in clem, once in opticl. clem was a bug in my code. not sure about opticl.
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2014-04-22T16:48:45Z jasom: Any bets on how long it takes me to figure out how to implement generalized references?
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2014-04-22T16:49:56Z Xach: jasom: 2 weeks
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2014-04-22T16:50:47Z jasom: I still haven't figure out the right thing to do if you (define-setf-expander foo ...) (macrolet ((foo ..)) (setf (foo) bar))
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2014-04-22T16:52:50Z JuanDaugherty: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/05_a.htm isn't this already in such as sbcl?
2014-04-22T16:53:13Z jasom: JuanDaugherty: I'm writing a lisp interpreter
2014-04-22T16:53:28Z JuanDaugherty: i c
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2014-04-22T16:54:13Z stassats: jasom: "Such macro expansion is attempted only after exhausting all other possibilities other than expanding into a call to a function named (setf reader)."
2014-04-22T16:54:21Z stassats: define-setf-expander takes precedence
2014-04-22T16:54:30Z jasom: stassats: thanks
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2014-04-22T16:54:38Z jasom: was just about to get there
2014-04-22T16:54:45Z stassats: clhs  5.1.2.7
2014-04-22T16:54:45Z specbot: Macro Forms as Places: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/05_abg.htm
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2014-04-22T16:56:31Z jasom: This is actually really elegant
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2014-04-22T16:57:15Z jasom: except perhaps for all the special cases in 5.1.2.2; I suppose that was easier than defining them in terms of setf expansins
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2014-04-22T17:31:01Z jasom: ah, (setf place value) basically boils down to (m-v-b (temps vals store write read) (get-setf-expansion place env) `(let (,@mapcar #'list temps vals)) (m-v-b ,store ,value ,write))))
2014-04-22T17:31:16Z pjb: Not always.
2014-04-22T17:31:26Z pjb: But for places that are defined with a setf-expansion, yes.
2014-04-22T17:31:51Z jasom: pjb: okay replace get-setf-expansion with something that follows all the expansion rules
2014-04-22T17:31:53Z pjb: An implementation can embed any specific knowledge it wants into setf, for things like cl:gethash, structure accessors, etc.
2014-04-22T17:31:56Z nyef: I thought that there was always a setf-expansion for a place, even if it happened to be a trivial one?
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2014-04-22T17:32:07Z nyef: clhs get-setf-expansion
2014-04-22T17:32:07Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_get_se.htm
2014-04-22T17:32:26Z jasom: nyef: I think you're right
2014-04-22T17:32:40Z jasom: otherwise you couldn't correctly expand a place with your own setf expansion
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2014-04-22T17:33:17Z pjb: "5.1.1.2 Setf Expansions" says: "For each standardized accessor function F, unless it is explicitly documented otherwise, it is implementation-dependent whether the ability to use an F form as a setf place is implemented by a setf expander or a setf function. Also, it follows from this that it is implementation-dependent whether the name (setf F) is fbound."
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2014-04-22T17:34:00Z jasom: pjb: but get-setf-expansion for a (setf f) function still needs to return something sane
2014-04-22T17:34:16Z pjb: Yes, and for other places too it seems.
2014-04-22T17:34:47Z jasom: Every place has a setf expansion, it may be implemented by a setf expander or a setf function (or a macro or a macro symbol)
2014-04-22T17:35:03Z pjb: So get-setf-expansion is a powerful introspective operator.
2014-04-22T17:35:08Z jasom: I don't see how define-setf-expander could work otherwise
2014-04-22T17:35:36Z jasom: though (setf some-form some-value) doesn't necessarily need to use the setf expander if some-form consists entirely of standard places
2014-04-22T17:36:14Z pjb: Yes, but the point is that get-setf-expansion should return something for those implementation dependant expansions.
2014-04-22T17:36:23Z jasom: right
2014-04-22T17:36:26Z pjb: such as defstruct accessors, car/cdr, etc.
2014-04-22T17:36:34Z pjb: gethash!
2014-04-22T17:36:49Z pjb: notice how for car, there's a rplaca, but for gethash, there's no standard setter.
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2014-04-22T17:37:14Z jasom: pjb: probably some-internal-package:set-hash-value
2014-04-22T17:37:33Z pjb: Indeed. You discover it with get-setf-expansion.
2014-04-22T17:37:43Z jasom: (PROGN NIL (SB-KERNEL:%PUTHASH #:G1088 #:G1089 #:G1090))
2014-04-22T17:37:56Z pjb: (ccl::puthash #:g21016 #:g21017 #:g21015)
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2014-04-22T17:39:02Z jasom: hmm, I just peeked at sbcl's setf and they used let* instead of let... I'll have to think about why for a minute.
2014-04-22T17:39:21Z Bike: ccl's should do the same, and all CLs, unless i'm mistaken
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2014-04-22T17:40:07Z nyef: jasom: Have fun with multi-valued places.
2014-04-22T17:40:42Z jasom: nyef: that's why the 3rd argument is a list instead of an atom, right?
2014-04-22T17:40:55Z nyef: Probably, yeah.
2014-04-22T17:41:07Z nyef: I've already paged out most of the details of how SETF works internally.
2014-04-22T17:41:40Z jasom: ah 5.1.1.2: a list of symbols naming temporary variables to be bound sequentially, as if by let*, to values resulting from value forms.
2014-04-22T17:42:00Z jasom: that took less thinking to figure out than I thought
2014-04-22T17:42:19Z jasom: so change my let to let* and I think it's actually right
2014-04-22T17:42:27Z nyef: Your next challenge: Figure out WHY they need to be sequentially bound. (-:
2014-04-22T17:43:22Z jasom: It probably allows subforms to be only evaluated once, even if the evaluation of some subforms relies on values from other subforms
2014-04-22T17:44:00Z jasom: I'm sure once I get into writing setf expansions for 5.1.2.2 it will show up really fast
2014-04-22T17:44:25Z jasom: oh, it's even simpler, the accessor form might use a temp
2014-04-22T17:44:35Z jasom: and outer forms will likely set accessor forms from inner forms
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2014-04-22T17:50:47Z jasom: and then I need to handle any even number of arguments, but that's not too terrible (psetf will be slightly harder)
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2014-04-22T18:00:09Z Malice: Hello! I'm using sbcl. How can I undefine function?
2014-04-22T18:00:56Z stassats: clhs fmakunbound
2014-04-22T18:00:56Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_fmakun.htm
2014-04-22T18:00:58Z jasom: Malice: short answer: fmakunbound.  Long answer: why?
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2014-04-22T18:01:48Z Malice: jasom: I'm following book, and it shows labels function. However, the function with name that I'm using in labels is already defined, because I wrote it earlier, so I want to undefine this function
2014-04-22T18:01:52Z Malice: So the proper one would be called
2014-04-22T18:02:21Z stassats: labels wouldn't use it
2014-04-22T18:02:23Z jasom: Malice: that's not necessary; labels will shadow the outer function definition
2014-04-22T18:02:54Z Malice: Damn
2014-04-22T18:02:55Z jasom: Malice: although certain ways of getting at a function will ignore labels
2014-04-22T18:03:04Z Malice: That's how I expected it to work
2014-04-22T18:03:13Z Malice: I was surprised it didn't shadow the defined function
2014-04-22T18:03:20Z Malice: Turns out I typo'd t for d...
2014-04-22T18:03:28Z Malice: Anyway, good to know. Thanks guys!
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2014-04-22T18:59:07Z jackdaniel: °±°
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2014-04-22T19:02:21Z jasom: does sbcl have any plan to continue work on sb-simple-streams?
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2014-04-22T19:20:04Z nyef: jasom: A better question might be, "do any SBCL maintainers plan to continue work on sb-simple-streams", as there's very little central development planning that happens with SBCL.
2014-04-22T19:20:21Z jasom: fair 'nuff
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2014-04-22T19:21:03Z jasom: or maybe "Is anyone planning to continue to work on it and is it useful as it is now?"
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2014-04-22T19:21:45Z oleo: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142253#2
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2014-04-22T19:23:16Z stassats: i never used it
2014-04-22T19:23:18Z Krystof: jasom: I wouldn't suggest using it unless ACL compatibility is important to you
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2014-04-22T19:44:01Z mathrick: Krystof: are they not a better API, or are they not mature enough to bother now unless you really need ACL compat?
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2014-04-22T19:53:43Z ltbarcly: is there a way to cast a lisp string to an (* unsigned-char) in sb-alien?
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2014-04-22T19:55:32Z nyef: Typically, such things should happen fairly transparently.
2014-04-22T19:55:42Z ltbarcly: I'm messing something up then, hmm
2014-04-22T19:56:12Z ltbarcly:   The value "test"
2014-04-22T19:56:14Z ltbarcly:   is not of type
2014-04-22T19:56:16Z ltbarcly:     (OR NULL SYSTEM-AREA-POINTER (ALIEN (* (UNSIGNED 8)))).
2014-04-22T19:56:19Z ltbarcly: oops, sorry for pasting
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2014-04-22T19:57:20Z ltbarcly: it looks like it will automatically convert to c-string, but it seems like unsigned-char is just treated as an unsigned 8
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2014-04-22T20:02:42Z nyef: Ah, yeah, it'll automatically convert c-string. (* unsigned-char) is another matter. If you're using base-strings, you can get away with pinning the string and using one of the internal functions to get a bare pointer to the underlying bytes.
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2014-04-22T20:04:21Z jasom: and if you're not using base strings, something like babel:string-to-octets should work
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2014-04-22T20:06:21Z jasom: oh, this is sbcl specific sb-ext:string-to-octets exists
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2014-04-22T20:06:31Z ltbarcly:  (sb-alien:cast (sb-alien:make-alien-string "test" :null-terminate nil) (* unsigned-char)) seems to work
2014-04-22T20:06:48Z ltbarcly: however, I'm sure it's copying the string :/
2014-04-22T20:07:17Z nyef: What's the problem with copying the string?
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2014-04-22T20:08:02Z jasom: I think you need to copy if you are using any encoding other than latin1
2014-04-22T20:08:03Z ltbarcly: just uses a lot more memory, I should just rework things to use an array
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2014-04-22T20:09:08Z jasom: or perhaps even then, I don't know how sbcl's internal string representation works
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2014-04-22T20:09:35Z nyef: Depends on if it's built with unicode support or not.
2014-04-22T20:09:43Z ltbarcly: I guess I could just read the files directly into an alien array
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2014-04-22T20:10:42Z jasom: ltbarcly: also check if the library you are using has a similar function to the one you are calling, but takes a file rather than a string
2014-04-22T20:11:08Z ltbarcly: nah, it's a pretty bare bones lib
2014-04-22T20:11:38Z ltbarcly: https://github.com/AlgoLab/elementi-bioinformatica/blob/master/sais/sais.h
2014-04-22T20:12:52Z ltbarcly: wow, sb-alien:deref will happily read right past the end of an array
2014-04-22T20:13:59Z ltbarcly: oh my, it will also happily write past the end of an array
2014-04-22T20:14:26Z nyef: Well, yes. Wouldn't C?
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2014-04-22T20:14:38Z oleo: C would too....
2014-04-22T20:14:50Z ltbarcly: sure
2014-04-22T20:14:57Z ltbarcly: but this isn't C though
2014-04-22T20:14:58Z oleo: bounds checking.....
2014-04-22T20:15:14Z jasom: ltbarcly: yes it is C
2014-04-22T20:15:27Z ltbarcly: I guess sb-alien has no way to know whether the array was resized in the c code
2014-04-22T20:15:29Z jasom: ltbarcly: the FFI is essentially a way to call into and out of the C ABI
2014-04-22T20:16:00Z oleo: heh
2014-04-22T20:16:03Z ltbarcly: but it seems like for things it allocates, it would make more sense to refuse to read/write past what it thinks the end of the array is without setting a flag or something
2014-04-22T20:16:23Z ltbarcly: but then the c could realloc it smaller or something
2014-04-22T20:16:31Z ltbarcly: man c sucks it
2014-04-22T20:17:32Z ltbarcly: and that's working, this is just about the best FFI I've used
2014-04-22T20:17:40Z ltbarcly: the FFI's for python are horrifying
2014-04-22T20:17:53Z ltbarcly: (python the language)
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2014-04-22T20:18:23Z jasom: ltbarcly: FYI there is a library called CFFI that is a portability layer for ffi; if you only care about sbcl no need to use it though.
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2014-04-22T20:19:01Z ltbarcly: I'm barely limping along now, another layer of abstraction and I'm doomed
2014-04-22T20:19:21Z Bike: it's not really another abstraction layer, just cffi:deref instead of sb-alien:deref sorta thing.
2014-04-22T20:21:11Z jasom: I think sbcl has a function to allocate a vector that can pass its storage to ffi functions
2014-04-22T20:21:47Z jasom: If you'd rather use the lispy way of reading the file into unsigned-byte 8 vector, and still avoid  a copy
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2014-04-22T20:55:29Z ltbarcly: is there a reasonable way to 'emulate' a lisp1 in common lisp?
2014-04-22T20:56:08Z jdz: ltbarcly: is it reasonable?
2014-04-22T20:56:13Z ltbarcly: I'm not sure
2014-04-22T20:56:37Z ltbarcly: the context is that I am working on a dsl that compiles to CL, and the dsl has one namespace for functions and values
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2014-04-22T20:56:57Z ltbarcly: so I can't think of a nice way to support first class functions
2014-04-22T20:58:03Z Bike: just compile all function calls into funcall?
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2014-04-22T20:58:35Z ltbarcly: Bike: I figure that would confuse sbcl's attempts to optimize
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2014-04-22T20:59:34Z Bike: have you tried it?
2014-04-22T21:00:33Z ltbarcly: not yet, I have to go find all the ways functions can be defined and make sure they are also assigned to the value cell of that symbol
2014-04-22T21:01:05Z jdz: ltbarcly: are you reading your DSL as CL?
2014-04-22T21:01:13Z ltbarcly: no, there is a compiler
2014-04-22T21:01:13Z brown`: ltbarcly: See the Scheme implementation written in Common Lisp called pseudoscheme.
2014-04-22T21:01:18Z ltbarcly: the syntax is basically like Python
2014-04-22T21:01:26Z ltbarcly: brown`: oh, great tip, thanks
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2014-04-22T21:02:07Z ltbarcly: compiling to CL is a great way to learn the language, it has forced me to look into a lot of things that I would have just brushed over
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2014-04-22T21:02:26Z Bike: i don't think sbcl or really any good compiler is going to treat (let ((foo ...)) (funcall foo)) and (flet ((foo ...)) (funcall #'foo ...) too differently, the difference is just syntactic
2014-04-22T21:02:41Z ltbarcly: such as the fact that defun creates a special variable (which is obvious in hindsight, but it forced me to get it all straight in my head)
2014-04-22T21:02:59Z Bike: ...what?
2014-04-22T21:03:03Z jdz: ltbarcly: defun does not create any special variables
2014-04-22T21:03:16Z ltbarcly: I mean it's dynamically scoped
2014-04-22T21:03:22Z Bike: it's not.
2014-04-22T21:03:23Z Bike: what?
2014-04-22T21:03:41Z jdz: WAT!?
2014-04-22T21:03:57Z ltbarcly: maybe my terminology is jacked
2014-04-22T21:03:59Z Bike: the function space is entirely lexically scoped and defun defines a global anyway!
2014-04-22T21:04:05Z ltbarcly: ahh, global
2014-04-22T21:04:07Z ltbarcly: that's what I meant
2014-04-22T21:04:17Z Bike: oh. well yes. that's very different.
2014-04-22T21:04:17Z jdz: what global?
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2014-04-22T21:04:28Z ltbarcly: I mean defun VS flet
2014-04-22T21:04:29Z Bike: the function is defined globally.
2014-04-22T21:04:30Z jdz: you mean symbol-function?
2014-04-22T21:04:44Z jasom: ltbarcly: FYI a compiler is allowed to assume that any function in the same file that is not declared NOTINLINE won't change
2014-04-22T21:04:59Z ltbarcly: jasom: ahh, that is very good to know!
2014-04-22T21:05:07Z Bike: jdz: the function slot, if you want to put it that way, yes
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2014-04-22T21:05:37Z ltbarcly: so anyway, initially I compiled function definitions to (defun, and then I tried creating a closure in a loop
2014-04-22T21:05:44Z jdz: i would not call that as "defining a global"
2014-04-22T21:05:48Z Bike: ltbarcly was probably thinking that in something like (let (...) (defun foo ...) ...) foo would go out of scope somehow
2014-04-22T21:05:57Z Bike: jdz: why not.
2014-04-22T21:06:09Z ltbarcly: Bike: exactly, it was just a fundemental misunderstanding of how defun works
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2014-04-22T21:06:17Z jdz: because DEFUN is not creating anything
2014-04-22T21:06:34Z Bike: it defines a function name to mean something. i think that's simple enough.
2014-04-22T21:06:57Z jdz: (setf (symbol-function 'foo) (lambda (x) (* x x))
2014-04-22T21:07:00Z ltbarcly: Bike: except it's binding it globally or whatever
2014-04-22T21:07:03Z jdz: there, did i create a global?
2014-04-22T21:07:13Z Bike: i said 'define', and sure, why not
2014-04-22T21:07:22Z Bike: you defined foo to mean that lambda
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2014-04-22T21:10:11Z jdz: something seems wrong about that definition to me, not sure what exactly. and it's getting too much into nitpicking territory now.
2014-04-22T21:10:33Z jdz: so yeah, call it whatever you like, as long as it's clear what actually happens
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2014-04-22T21:11:15Z ltbarcly: so is there a difference between something in the global environment and a dynamic variable?
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2014-04-22T21:11:35Z jdz: ltbarcly: yes, dynamic variables are special
2014-04-22T21:11:45Z jdz: ltbarcly: that's why they are also known as "special" variables
2014-04-22T21:11:50Z ltbarcly: oh
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2014-04-22T21:12:05Z ltbarcly: so if you lexically bind it, the rebinding also has dynamic extent?
2014-04-22T21:12:25Z jdz: declaring a variable special changes the behaviour of that variable
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2014-04-22T21:12:36Z jdz: you cannot lexically bind a special variable
2014-04-22T21:12:46Z ltbarcly: mask, or whatever you want to call it
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2014-04-22T21:12:53Z jdz: it's called rebinding
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2014-04-22T21:13:57Z ltbarcly: so if you rebind a special variable, it's dynamically rebound for the duration of the form that bound it, but functions are 'lexical', so it's only rebound by something like flet in the lexical environment of the rebinding form?
2014-04-22T21:14:21Z ltbarcly: by functions I mean the thing defun creates in the global environment
2014-04-22T21:14:51Z jdz: you cannot rebind functions; only shadow them
2014-04-22T21:14:57Z jdz: in the lexical scope
2014-04-22T21:15:04Z ltbarcly: ahh
2014-04-22T21:15:16Z ltbarcly: so 'rebinding' is specific to special variables then?
2014-04-22T21:15:17Z jdz: dynamic binding only works on special variables
2014-04-22T21:15:21Z jdz: yes
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2014-04-22T21:15:35Z ltbarcly: yea, my lingo is clearly deficient here, thanks for correcting me
2014-04-22T21:15:52Z jdz: CLHS has an awesome "glossary" section
2014-04-22T21:16:15Z ltbarcly: jdz: yea, I was just looking there, it's very spartan in that it has very little redundancy
2014-04-22T21:16:28Z ltbarcly: so looking up anything means looking up just about every noun in the definition
2014-04-22T21:16:40Z ltbarcly: recursively
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2014-04-22T21:17:16Z jdz: using the terminology of CLHS makes for more productive discussions
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2014-04-22T21:18:39Z jdz: and actually i used "rebinding", which is not an actual term; it's just a "dynamic binding"
2014-04-22T21:18:48Z ltbarcly: so calling setf as a top level form will (besides causing warnings) create a lexically scoped variable in the global environment?
2014-04-22T21:19:25Z jdz: almost
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2014-04-22T21:19:56Z ltbarcly: I'm ignoring packages for the moment, is that the issue?
2014-04-22T21:19:58Z jdz: CL does not have global lexicals, and compilers will warn you about unused variables if you try to use symbols like this
2014-04-22T21:20:15Z ltbarcly: well, it doesn't have global lexicals, except for what defun creates?
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2014-04-22T21:20:40Z jdz: but one way of simulating global lexicals is to use symbol-macros and symbol-value
2014-04-22T21:20:53Z jdz: again, defun does not create anything
2014-04-22T21:21:00Z jdz: it just assigns to symbol-function slot
2014-04-22T21:21:49Z ltbarcly: but it can do it at top level, which produces a lexically scoped variable?
2014-04-22T21:22:02Z ltbarcly: or anywhere, since it's always global
2014-04-22T21:22:48Z jdz: i'm not sure what exactly your confusion is
2014-04-22T21:22:52Z jdz: this is lisp-2
2014-04-22T21:22:58Z jdz: variables are separate from functions
2014-04-22T21:23:04Z ltbarcly: sure
2014-04-22T21:23:26Z jdz: clhs 3.1.2.1.2
2014-04-22T21:23:26Z specbot: Conses as Forms: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_abab.htm
2014-04-22T21:24:15Z jdz: 3.1.2.1.2.3 specifically
2014-04-22T21:25:26Z ltbarcly: so maybe this would clear it up for me, what is the difference between creating a new function in the global environment, and a lexically scoped global variable, which CL doesn't have (other than it being in the function namespace)?
2014-04-22T21:25:46Z jdz: and to use proper terminology, defun "establishes a binding in global environment"
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2014-04-22T21:26:17Z ltbarcly: CLHS says it defines a function named function-name in the global environment
2014-04-22T21:26:44Z jdz: i think i see what you're trying to ask :)
2014-04-22T21:27:27Z jdz: yes, functions are like global lexicals, only in function namespace
2014-04-22T21:27:35Z ltbarcly: ok, that makes sense then
2014-04-22T21:28:28Z jdz: yeah, except i have not thought about them like that
2014-04-22T21:29:15Z ltbarcly: it's confusing, at least to me, that there are so many rules, and that the rules are different for functions and values for binding
2014-04-22T21:29:37Z ltbarcly: in the lack of global lexicals, I just assumed defun created a special variable of some sort, since that was the only thing that made sense
2014-04-22T21:30:17Z ltbarcly: I'm not even going to try to understand how all of that interacts with packages
2014-04-22T21:30:21Z jdz: well, the only advice i can give is try not to assume much, there's CLHS that clarifies everything!
2014-04-22T21:30:30Z jdz: packages are easy
2014-04-22T21:30:36Z jdz: they map names to symbols
2014-04-22T21:30:38Z jdz: end of story
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2014-04-22T21:30:46Z _death: it's not lexical.. the scope is indefinite
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2014-04-22T21:31:30Z jdz: _death: or global?
2014-04-22T21:32:12Z ltbarcly: actually, upon reflection the namespace complexity isn't unique to lisp
2014-04-22T21:32:26Z jdz: the CLHS distinguishes between "global environment" and "lexical environment"
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2014-04-22T21:32:39Z jdz: at least in section 3.1.2.1.2.3
2014-04-22T21:32:52Z ltbarcly: python has module scope, class scope, a lexical-like scope, plus local scope
2014-04-22T21:33:13Z jdz: ltbarcly: which is miles more complicated than what CL has
2014-04-22T21:34:37Z ltbarcly: here is a particular favorite of mine, in python: https://gist.github.com/justinvanwinkle/11195182
2014-04-22T21:35:12Z ltbarcly: now, imagine the assignment to x is a hundred lines below the def foo() line, and you have a brief summary of half a day in my life (circa 2008)
2014-04-22T21:35:23Z jdz: please staph! next thing you'll start directing us at JavaScript!
2014-04-22T21:35:48Z ltbarcly: so if you run that code, it produces an error 'local variable referenced before assignment'
2014-04-22T21:36:11Z ltbarcly: if you remove the first 'print x', it will run fine :/
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2014-04-22T21:43:01Z _death: jdz: what is a "global lexical"?.. it does not make sense.
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2014-04-22T21:43:55Z jdz: _death: it does make sense, except there's no such thing in CL
2014-04-22T21:44:34Z jdz: _death: it's like what other languages call "globals"
2014-04-22T21:48:52Z _death: jdz: that seems confused to me.  do you know what lexical means?
2014-04-22T21:49:16Z Odin-: _death: Do you?
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2014-04-22T21:50:19Z _death: Odin: yes..
2014-04-22T21:50:52Z _death: e.g., the CL glossary defines lexical scope: scope that is limited to a spatial or textual region within the establishing form.
2014-04-22T21:51:15Z jdz: _death: and how does that contradict "global lexicals"?
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2014-04-22T21:51:50Z ltbarcly: is there an implicit form around the top level of a file?
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2014-04-22T21:52:20Z ltbarcly: IE is a file with "(blah) (blah)" exactly the same as a file with "(progn (blah) (blah))"?
2014-04-22T21:52:43Z jdz: ltbarcly: yes, in this case.  there's a section on top-level forms in CLHS
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2014-04-22T21:53:36Z ltbarcly: so if you, say, wrapped everything in a file with (let (foo) ...), wouldn't foo behave just like a global lexical variable, except re: packages?
2014-04-22T21:54:03Z _death: jdz: not sure how it could be clearer.. if there's a form (defglobal foo 42), and afterwards you use foo, it doesn't seem to me that the scope of foo is limited that way
2014-04-22T21:54:12Z jdz: ltbarcly: why do you keep bringing packages up? they have nothing to do with scope.
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2014-04-22T21:54:32Z ltbarcly: because I don't think you could export foo
2014-04-22T21:54:37Z Bicyclidine: yes, but that would effect compile time behavior
2014-04-22T21:54:37Z Bicyclidine: in that there wouldn't be any :P
2014-04-22T21:54:37Z Bicyclidine: clhs 3.2.3.1
2014-04-22T21:54:49Z Bicyclidine: sure you could, it's a symbol
2014-04-22T21:54:49Z specbot: Processing of Top Level Forms: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_bca.htm
2014-04-22T21:55:00Z Bicyclidine: and then you could define read-foo write-foo closures and call it good
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2014-04-22T21:55:50Z _death: ltbarcly: this has nothing to do with files
2014-04-22T21:55:55Z Bicyclidine: also re conversation i walked in on, i think sbcl has global lexicals as an impl-dependent feature
2014-04-22T21:55:58Z ltbarcly: Bicyclidine: you could export the symbol, but any values bound to it in the course of the let would be gone, even if you closed over it?
2014-04-22T21:56:14Z _death: Bicyclidine: SBCL has globals, yes.. but there's no such thing as "global lexicals"
2014-04-22T21:56:16Z Bicyclidine: impl-defined rather
2014-04-22T21:56:19Z ltbarcly: of course where you closed over it, the value would still be there
2014-04-22T21:56:25Z jdz: ltbarcly: there's a difference between symbols and variables
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2014-04-22T21:56:34Z jdz: ltbarcly: symbols are used to name variables
2014-04-22T21:56:43Z jdz: ltbarcly: and symbols have packages
2014-04-22T21:57:06Z jdz: ltbarcly: but you cannot export (or do anything except referencing) variables
2014-04-22T21:57:15Z Bicyclidine: _death: it seems simple enough to me. you can shadow them and all.
2014-04-22T21:57:18Z _death: I suppose the confusion comes because the name isn't bound in the dynamic environment, and so some mistakenly assume it's bound in a lexical environment
2014-04-22T21:57:26Z _death: Bicyclidine: did you try it?
2014-04-22T21:57:33Z Odin-: Symbols, bindings, and various fun stuff!
2014-04-22T21:57:44Z jdz: _death: it's still an open question who is confused here
2014-04-22T21:57:53Z Odin-: _death: Except defun _does_ create a dynamic binding.
2014-04-22T21:58:02Z Bicyclidine: _death: defglobal? can't say i have
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2014-04-22T21:58:12Z _death: Odin: chapter and verse
2014-04-22T21:58:39Z Bicyclidine: how is defun dynamic, i've never seen this before today and now it comes up twice
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2014-04-22T21:59:29Z Odin-: _death: symbol-function ?
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2014-04-22T21:59:50Z Odin-: (As opposed to the dynamic binding accessible through symbol-value.)
2014-04-22T21:59:55Z ltbarcly: here is part of the confusion, for me:  if you just do (print foo) at top level, the error in sbcl is "the variable foo is undefined"
2014-04-22T22:00:03Z ltbarcly: wth is a variable?
2014-04-22T22:00:12Z Bicyclidine: (flet ((foo ...)) (bar)) and then if bar has (foo ...) it'll call the global foo. lexical.
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2014-04-22T22:00:26Z ltbarcly: presumably it means the symbol foo is unbound?
2014-04-22T22:00:33Z jdz: Odin-: you surely do not mean "dynamic" in the sense of having a "special" binding behaviour of special variables, do you?
2014-04-22T22:00:57Z Bicyclidine: "variable n. a binding in the ``variable'' namespace. See Section 3.1.2.1.1 (Symbols as Forms). "
2014-04-22T22:01:24Z ltbarcly: but there is no variable here
2014-04-22T22:01:36Z Odin-: jdz: No. But only because the automatic rewinding mechanism is missing, as far as I can tell.
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2014-04-22T22:01:38Z Bicyclidine: and symbols don't have bindings.
2014-04-22T22:01:40Z _death: Bicyclidine: FLET binds in the lexical environment..
2014-04-22T22:01:43Z ltbarcly: if a variable is a binding, then if something is unbound, then there is no variable
2014-04-22T22:01:54Z ltbarcly: so a variable can't be unbound
2014-04-22T22:01:57Z Bicyclidine: _death: yes, i'm agreeing that it's lexical
2014-04-22T22:02:05Z _death: Bicyclidine: but DEFUN does not
2014-04-22T22:02:05Z jdz: Odin-: but that's exactly what is assumed by "dynamic", at least to me.
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2014-04-22T22:02:25Z Bicyclidine: _death: it's global. nothing 'special' about it
2014-04-22T22:02:30Z jdz: ltbarcly: "unbound" or "undefined"?
2014-04-22T22:02:57Z ltbarcly: SBCL says: "The variable X is unbound."
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2014-04-22T22:03:22Z jdz: ltbarcly: yes, because there are no global lexicals
2014-04-22T22:03:22Z Odin-: jdz: Ah. The defining part of 'dynamic' to me is "what happens if you mess with the binding at runtime?" Although compilation plays merry hell with that.
2014-04-22T22:03:23Z _death: Bicyclidine: correct.. in the same way, DEFGLOBAL binds in a global environment.. not a lexical one
2014-04-22T22:03:34Z Bicyclidine: _death: ok fine
2014-04-22T22:03:49Z ltbarcly: jdz: expand that with the definition of variable though:  "The binding in the variable namespace 'X' is unbound"
2014-04-22T22:03:54Z Bicyclidine: Odin-: the defining part of 'dynamic' here is the dynamic scope.
2014-04-22T22:03:55Z jdz: ltbarcly: and since you don't have a variable in the lexical scope, and there's no dynamic binding, the variable is unbound
2014-04-22T22:04:06Z ltbarcly: jdz: but a variable is by definition a binding
2014-04-22T22:04:19Z ltbarcly: a binding can't be unbound
2014-04-22T22:04:26Z jdz: ltbarcly: yes, but you must have a variable first
2014-04-22T22:04:26Z ltbarcly: it can just not exist
2014-04-22T22:04:28Z Bicyclidine: i think you're reading far too much into a basic error message
2014-04-22T22:04:30Z Odin-: Bicyclidine: Yes. Which is the question of what happens upon redefinition, not whether binding are automatically re-established.
2014-04-22T22:04:41Z Odin-: +s
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2014-04-22T22:04:44Z Bicyclidine: Odin-: you can have dynamic scope without any redefinition
2014-04-22T22:04:50Z jdz: ltbarcly: just having a symbol in your program does not mean it is a variable
2014-04-22T22:05:10Z ltbarcly: jdz: that's what I mean, the error should say there is no binding for symbol X
2014-04-22T22:05:20Z jdz: ltbarcly: yes, it is unbound
2014-04-22T22:05:39Z jdz: ltbarcly: and variables have bindings, not symbols
2014-04-22T22:05:52Z Odin-: Bicyclidine: Yes ... but without redefinition it is indistinguishable from lexical scope. Or am I missing something?
2014-04-22T22:05:55Z ltbarcly: variables *are* bindings
2014-04-22T22:05:59Z ltbarcly: they can't have bindings
2014-04-22T22:06:16Z Bicyclidine: Odin-: (let ((*foo* 'bar)) (baz)) (baz) no redefinition, just binding
2014-04-22T22:06:39Z jdz: ltbarcly: check the glossary
2014-04-22T22:06:43Z jdz: when in doubt
2014-04-22T22:06:51Z ltbarcly: "variable n. a binding in the ``variable'' namespace. "
2014-04-22T22:07:28Z jdz: ltbarcly: check the "binding" too, while you're at it
2014-04-22T22:07:42Z ltbarcly: the association between a name and what the name denotes
2014-04-22T22:08:03Z ltbarcly: so the error should be "The name X is unbound"
2014-04-22T22:08:21Z jdz: ltbarcly: are you in a hurry?
2014-04-22T22:08:29Z Odin-: Bicyclidine: The automatic rewinding is nifty, but doesn't change the fact that you _are_ changing the result of evaluating the symbol for the code down the stack.
2014-04-22T22:08:33Z jdz: ltbarcly: did you read the whole glossary entry?
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2014-04-22T22:08:41Z ltbarcly: jdz: I will, it's a good idea
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2014-04-22T22:09:04Z Bicyclidine: Odin-: (let ((x 4)) (foo x) (let ((x 5)) (foo x))) am i "changing the result of evaluating the symbol"
2014-04-22T22:09:24Z ltbarcly: but it is less helpful to know all the terminology when it seems important to be precise to be able to discuss this stuff, and meanwhile sbcl is saying nonsense :)
2014-04-22T22:09:51Z ltbarcly: then I come and ask about a variable being unbound, which someone here is sure to immediately correct
2014-04-22T22:10:08Z Bicyclidine: the error is supposed to help programmers, not calm the dictionary
2014-04-22T22:10:16Z jdz: ltbarcly: what the error says is "this symbol here looks like a variable, except there is no binding form, so it is unbound"
2014-04-22T22:10:17Z Bicyclidine: did i do that? if so i apologize
2014-04-22T22:10:54Z _death: ltbarcly: you are actually supposde to be looking at the entry for _bound_
2014-04-22T22:10:56Z Odin-: Bicyclidine: Yes, but unlike dynamic bindings, you are doing so in a way that is predictable by static examination.
2014-04-22T22:11:10Z ltbarcly: I know it's not meant to be perfect, but it is confusing when there are such nontrivial distinctions when trying to learn how to do
2014-04-22T22:11:20Z Bicyclidine: Odin-: yeah, so why does there have be be a notion of 'redefinition' for the one but not the other
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2014-04-22T22:12:37Z Odin-: Bicyclidine: ... because the one can change the definition for someone else, and the other one can't?
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2014-04-22T22:13:18Z ltbarcly: Bicyclidine: isn't it because lexical binding isn't modifying anything?
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2014-04-22T22:14:49Z ltbarcly: it's not rebinding the special variable I mean
2014-04-22T22:15:50Z Odin-: A lexical binding shadows the existing one. The dynamic binding is changed, but automatically restored.
2014-04-22T22:16:18Z _death: (let ((a 1) (*b* 2)) ...) ; the two aren't so different.. one introduces a binding in the lexical env and the other in the dynamic env.. the big difference is in lookup
2014-04-22T22:16:43Z ltbarcly: Odin-: its' not changed, for example another thread would still see the original binding
2014-04-22T22:16:54Z ltbarcly: I realize threads are an extension to the language
2014-04-22T22:17:00Z ltbarcly: so probably that is implementation specific
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2014-04-22T22:18:01Z ltbarcly: but for performance reasons I would bet that it's usually not implemented as changing and then changing back the special variable's binding
2014-04-22T22:18:35Z _death: also note that the first binding has lexical scope and indefinite extent, while the second has indefinite scope and dynamic extent
2014-04-22T22:18:48Z Bicyclidine: well, practically speaking it is, but it's not required or anything
2014-04-22T22:19:06Z Bicyclidine: iirc sbcl puts all special variables in tls, so threads are kinda beefy
2014-04-22T22:19:14Z Odin- pokes Alonzo Church and wanders off.
2014-04-22T22:19:47Z _death: ltbarcly: consider (defvar *foo* 42) (let ((*foo* 123)) (symbol-value '*foo*))
2014-04-22T22:19:54Z ltbarcly: Bicyclidine: I would guess that it puts special variables in tls because otherwise there would be huge work to make rebinding them threadsafe
2014-04-22T22:19:59Z ltbarcly: which isn't usually a consideration
2014-04-22T22:20:38Z Bicyclidine: more or less, yeah.
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2014-04-22T22:22:07Z _death: ltbarcly: it seems you are speaking about deep binding vs. shallow binding
2014-04-22T22:23:39Z Vivitron: that's an unfortunately common bug pattern
2014-04-22T22:23:52Z Vivitron: sorry misfire
2014-04-22T22:24:18Z dim: in case anyone is interested and know how to, I began working on debian packaging for some cl libs, http://pgsql.tapoueh.org/cl-debian/
2014-04-22T22:24:45Z dim: hints welcome as in how to test the normal debian integration etc, I couldn't have sbcl happily (require :chunga) .e.g.
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2014-04-23T00:33:45Z zz_karupa is now known as karupa
2014-04-23T00:33:52Z dlowe: I thought there was some slime function that would extract an expression and put it into a function
2014-04-23T00:33:57Z dlowe: anyone remember something like that?
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2014-04-23T00:45:17Z nyef: dlowe: Might've been a redshank thing?
2014-04-23T00:45:37Z nyef: (Is redshank the right name for what I'm thinking of?))
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2014-04-23T00:46:18Z |3b|: yeah, sounds right (both the name and that it does that sort of thing)
2014-04-23T00:46:53Z dlowe: yeah, I think so. Thanks.
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2014-04-23T00:53:48Z leo2007: all links to lispm.dyndns.org seem dead
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2014-04-23T00:54:34Z pjb: IIRC, dyndns discontinued its service.
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2014-04-23T01:03:19Z leo2007: pjb: is it available somewhere else?
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2014-04-23T01:03:39Z pjb: You would have to ask the owner.
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2014-04-23T01:34:56Z dlowe: it's just for-pay now
2014-04-23T01:35:38Z phadthai: if dynup still works, you could try it
2014-04-23T01:36:07Z nyef: phadthai: The issue is that there's this existing site, not maintained by any of us...
2014-04-23T01:36:46Z nyef: ... and for which I only have a local mirror of the Annotatable CLIM II Specification.
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2014-04-23T02:34:49Z leo2007: any plan to move cl-cookbook off sf?
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2014-04-23T03:13:15Z Xach: leo2007: I don't think it is an ongoing project.
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2014-04-23T03:21:01Z leo2007: you mean cl-cookbook or moving off sf?
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2014-04-23T03:25:32Z Xach: cl-cookbook
2014-04-23T03:27:54Z leo2007: OK, I get a local anyways. sf is blocked here which is odd.
2014-04-23T03:29:35Z leo2007: 'a local copy'
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2014-04-23T05:00:59Z BitPuffin: is there a good reference for built in functions and so on that is searchable and stuff?
2014-04-23T05:01:23Z Bicyclidine: clhs
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2014-04-23T05:01:53Z BitPuffin: ah
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2014-04-23T05:02:07Z BitPuffin: is that searchable though?
2014-04-23T05:02:36Z Bicyclidine: it doesn't have a search bar but you can ctrl-f things in the symbols list or look through the glossary
2014-04-23T05:02:36Z BitPuffin: doesn't look to be much of a reference, more a spec
2014-04-23T05:03:11Z Bicyclidine: it's not good for learning or anything but it's good for reference.
2014-04-23T05:03:20Z BitPuffin: hrm
2014-04-23T05:03:27Z BitPuffin: Wish there was something better
2014-04-23T05:03:41Z Bicyclidine: i'm not sure what more you'd want in a reference.
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2014-04-23T05:04:20Z BitPuffin: well, I guess something with a better interface
2014-04-23T05:05:06Z Bicyclidine: it's ugly but fairly easy to navigate.
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2014-04-23T05:07:51Z BitPuffin: Bicyclidine: well for example you have to ctrl f on a letter
2014-04-23T05:07:57Z BitPuffin: there is no big index for everything
2014-04-23T05:08:11Z Bicyclidine: no, i mean http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw51/CLHS/Front/X_Symbol.htm
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2014-04-23T05:09:26Z BitPuffin: hmm that link wasn't on the almost identical page I was on
2014-04-23T05:09:29Z BitPuffin: sucky interface :P
2014-04-23T05:09:51Z Bicyclidine: which were you looking at?
2014-04-23T05:10:14Z BitPuffin: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/CLHS/Body/26_a.htm
2014-04-23T05:10:53Z Bicyclidine: well, right, the glossary is for terms, the symbols list is symbols (so, builtin functions and all), and then the "master index" has both.
2014-04-23T05:11:09Z BitPuffin: hm
2014-04-23T05:11:12Z BitPuffin: aight
2014-04-23T05:11:13Z Bicyclidine: you're making me feel old for caring about this distinction :(
2014-04-23T05:11:14Z BitPuffin: well dayum
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2014-04-23T05:11:32Z BitPuffin: haha why does that make you feel old
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2014-04-23T05:12:07Z Bicyclidine: oh, just because it's common for books to have a glossary and then an index, but that's less relevant when you can just dump things into google
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2014-04-23T05:12:21Z BitPuffin: ah
2014-04-23T05:12:21Z Bicyclidine: (speaking of which, googling "clhs [function name here]" usually works)
2014-04-23T05:12:23Z BitPuffin: gotcha
2014-04-23T05:12:29Z BitPuffin: true
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2014-04-23T05:12:41Z BitPuffin: But if you don't know what you are looking for exactly
2014-04-23T05:12:46Z BitPuffin: it's nice to be able to type around
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2014-04-23T05:13:56Z kcj: Hey it's BitPuffin.
2014-04-23T05:14:00Z kcj: I remember you.
2014-04-23T05:14:11Z BitPuffin: hey kcj!
2014-04-23T05:14:14Z kcj: Vaguely.
2014-04-23T05:14:17Z BitPuffin: are you from #D?
2014-04-23T05:14:34Z kcj: I'm from everywhere.
2014-04-23T05:14:38Z BitPuffin: lol
2014-04-23T05:14:42Z BitPuffin: well me too
2014-04-23T05:14:58Z BitPuffin: but I think maybe you were explaining some matrix stuff to me when I was writing D code
2014-04-23T05:15:14Z kcj: You're not even in #d.
2014-04-23T05:15:18Z BitPuffin: nope
2014-04-23T05:15:18Z kcj: I did?
2014-04-23T05:15:24Z BitPuffin: Maybe?
2014-04-23T05:15:32Z BitPuffin: Like about multiple coordinate spaces
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2014-04-23T05:15:40Z BitPuffin: could that have been you?
2014-04-23T05:15:42Z kcj: I'm not sure. Must have been awhile ago.
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2014-04-23T05:15:46Z kcj: I don't even know.
2014-04-23T05:15:58Z BitPuffin: well it was definitely over a year
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2014-04-23T05:16:06Z BitPuffin: perhaps even 2
2014-04-23T05:16:09Z BitPuffin: think it was summer 2012
2014-04-23T05:16:11Z BitPuffin: xD
2014-04-23T05:16:37Z BitPuffin: well are you familiar with transforming coordinate spaces and stuff in graphics? If so chances are it was you
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2014-04-23T05:38:29Z BitPuffin: hmm the thunk paradigm seems kinda weird. Do people still do that? It seems like it would cause problems when using concurrency
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2014-04-23T06:09:28Z BitPuffin: I wonder why they didn't call maplist mapcdr instead since they are calling mapcar mapcar
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2014-04-23T06:10:12Z ck_: because the entire list is a cons, not a cdr of something you provide?
2014-04-23T06:10:40Z H4ns: also, maplist does start with the argument, not with its cdr
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2014-04-23T06:11:06Z BitPuffin: well mapcar also takes an entire list
2014-04-23T06:11:22Z H4ns: but it calls the function for all cars
2014-04-23T06:11:29Z BitPuffin: but yeah I guess I can see what you are saying H4ns
2014-04-23T06:11:45Z BitPuffin: if it would cdr every entry I guess it would skip the first one
2014-04-23T06:12:44Z BitPuffin: how is it implemented then? I mean it would be a shame if it was a branch in each call, would be better if they just appended a random cons to it before sending it off to the implementation or something
2014-04-23T06:12:51Z BitPuffin: prepended*
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2014-04-23T06:13:25Z H4ns: BitPuffin: just have a look at its source if you are interested in how it is implemented
2014-04-23T06:14:03Z BitPuffin: H4ns: yeah, is it generally different from compiler to compiler or is it a file that is on the system as a "standard library"
2014-04-23T06:15:13Z H4ns: BitPuffin: each compiler comes with its own implementation
2014-04-23T06:15:13Z H4ns: BitPuffin: but it is trivial to implement without "shame"
2014-04-23T06:15:13Z Bicyclidine: BitPuffin: you have slime, right? M-. mapcar
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2014-04-23T06:16:09Z BitPuffin: Bicyclidine: not yet, slime is an emacs thing right? I'm actually just in the process of trying out going full time to emacs
2014-04-23T06:16:23Z Bicyclidine: yes. m-. jumps to a definition, it's very useful.
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2014-04-23T06:17:38Z BitPuffin: sweet
2014-04-23T06:17:51Z BitPuffin: :D
2014-04-23T06:17:53Z zRecursive: where does slime find the definition ?
2014-04-23T06:19:12Z H4ns: http://xach.livejournal.com/300290.html
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2014-04-23T06:20:59Z Bicyclidine: zRecursive: it asks the implementation.
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2014-04-23T06:24:50Z zRecursive: sbcl
2014-04-23T06:25:03Z Bicyclidine: What?
2014-04-23T06:25:31Z zRecursive: nope
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2014-04-23T06:26:12Z Bicyclidine: If you say things can you make those things understandable to others, please?
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2014-04-23T06:27:45Z BitPuffin: wot
2014-04-23T06:28:01Z zRecursive: H4ns: the URL you gave is what i need to know, thanks
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2014-04-23T07:23:24Z DrDanielJ: so what's this channel all about...i LOVE girls with lisps
2014-04-23T07:23:37Z H4ns: DrDanielJ: /topic
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2014-04-23T07:25:33Z DrDanielJ: i'm lost
2014-04-23T07:25:57Z H4ns: DrDanielJ: this channel is not about "girls with lisps"
2014-04-23T07:26:13Z DrDanielJ: ok...cool....then what?
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2014-04-23T07:27:57Z DrDanielJ: ok, so i'm a moron....help meout, will ya?
2014-04-23T07:28:52Z H4ns: i don't know about the moron, but if you can't make sense of the topic, you'll not find anything interesting to discuss in this channel
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2014-04-23T07:30:28Z DrDanielJ: I got ya....thx
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2014-04-23T08:19:28Z dim: hi
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2014-04-23T08:20:48Z dim: anyone here already worked from debian packages of CL libs, such as cl-puri or cl-base64? my understanding was that in SBCL (require :puri) would work after having done `apt-get install cl-puri`
2014-04-23T08:21:00Z dim: my trying says differently tho
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2014-04-23T08:21:51Z H4ns: in this channel, anything but quicklisp tends to receive no love
2014-04-23T08:22:01Z dim: yeah
2014-04-23T08:22:11Z dim: my perspective is to have pgloader (v3) enter debian
2014-04-23T08:22:21Z dim: and you can't depend on Quicklisp in debian package builds
2014-04-23T08:22:27Z H4ns: package all dependencies with it.
2014-04-23T08:22:32Z dim: (because you should be able to build from sources without internet access)
2014-04-23T08:23:11Z dim: H4ns: I'm rather going to package all my dependencies as separate "proper" debian libs, because I have other CL software I'm going to push in debian using the same dependencies (pginstall, pgcharts)
2014-04-23T08:23:13Z H4ns: just do it the old way:  copy the dependencies to a thirdparty/ directory in your own tree, be done with it.
2014-04-23T08:23:22Z H4ns: *shrug* have it your way
2014-04-23T08:23:26Z dim: yeah
2014-04-23T08:23:47Z dim: my question is more: do anyone here is both serious about using CL and depending on cl-* debian packages?
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2014-04-23T08:24:25Z dim: maybe all I need is to have the source code of the libs enter debian after all, and that's quite easy
2014-04-23T08:24:43Z jdz: oh, looks like i'll have a chance to try out pgloader -- i have a mysql DB over here, and i want to use postgres
2014-04-23T08:25:55Z dim: that's a strong use case ;-)
2014-04-23T08:26:33Z jdz: dim: is it in quicklisp?
2014-04-23T08:26:34Z dim: and as H4ns said, quicklisp is most certainly how you want to go
2014-04-23T08:26:37Z dim: yeah
2014-04-23T08:26:51Z dim: (ql:quickload "pgloader") ; should be all you need to get started
2014-04-23T08:27:08Z dim: (pgloader:run-commands "/Users/dim/dev/pgloader/test/serial.load" :client-min-messages :warning)
2014-04-23T08:27:40Z dim: you can then either use it from the REPL or build its CLI based app (typing `make` in the shell, then using ./build/bin/pgloader)
2014-04-23T08:27:50Z jdz: well, my quicklisp does not know anything about pgloader...
2014-04-23T08:28:22Z dim: easiest would be to git clone it into ~/quicklisp/local-projects then
2014-04-23T08:28:28Z dim: so that you know you have a recent enough version
2014-04-23T08:28:41Z jdz: dim: yeah, thanks, i'll probably do that
2014-04-23T08:28:45Z dim: git clone https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader.git ~/quicklisp/local-projects/pgloader
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2014-04-23T08:35:51Z jdz: bummer, "Symbol "*MYSQL-ENCODING*" not found in the QMYND package." looks like this will have to wait
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2014-04-23T08:38:03Z dim: oh, update your local copy of qmynd
2014-04-23T08:38:17Z dim: seems like the current code didn't make it yet to your copy of quicklisp
2014-04-23T08:38:38Z jdz: i'm in no hurry, i'll wait for quicklisp to catch up
2014-04-23T08:38:46Z dim: git clone https://github.com/qitab/qmynd.git ~/quicklisp/local-projects/qmynd
2014-04-23T08:39:00Z dim: as you see fit of course
2014-04-23T08:39:47Z jdz: i think i new release in nigh
2014-04-23T08:40:10Z jdz: s/i/a
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2014-04-23T08:49:41Z jdz: Xach: i don't have to have a paypal account to be able to donate to quciklisp, right?
2014-04-23T08:50:17Z jdz: oh, the subscribe link makes an impression i do
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2014-04-23T08:51:36Z jdz: road to hell is paved with good intentions
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2014-04-23T09:32:59Z Xach: jdz: you could send me precious metals through the mail, i suppose
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2014-04-23T09:36:40Z dim: Xach: it would probably cost less
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2014-04-23T09:39:59Z jdz: Xach: are you going to ELS?
2014-04-23T09:41:56Z Xach: No. Only ILC this year.
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2014-04-23T09:45:53Z aerique: Xach: thanks for the ql-util:without-prompting reply, i never noticed it
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2014-04-23T09:48:54Z Xach: no problem. it's not documented.
2014-04-23T09:49:16Z Xach: i may spend a few days on outlining some user & developer docs
2014-04-23T09:49:20Z Xach: (this week)
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2014-04-23T09:51:23Z dim: btw, what's missing to change from beta to stable?
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2014-04-23T09:52:01Z dim: (I have had pgloader customers complaining that they won't open a beta.whatever URL on their production envs even if that means no pgloader build for them) (yeah)
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2014-04-23T09:53:46Z Xach: Oh yeah, that reminds me, if you're going to fetch it from the internet, you might consider fetching its signature and validating it.
2014-04-23T09:54:38Z dim: well I continue thinking that QL is for CL developers and that I will be only providing a binary to end users
2014-04-23T09:55:00Z dim: it's unclear still how best to do it within the debian framework, apart from that it's easy enough to have already been done
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2014-04-23T09:56:16Z Xach: dim: documentation is a big part of not being beta any more for me. i'd also like do more verification (e.g. making use, within the client, of the archive digests and metadata gpg signatures)
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2014-04-23T09:57:02Z dim: sounds all legit
2014-04-23T09:57:09Z dim: do you need help to make it happen?
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2014-04-23T09:57:43Z stassats: there goes my excuse for not using quicklisp!
2014-04-23T09:57:48Z Xach: support for more methods of fetching things (so you can easily have a dist on a local filesystem), and hooks into the fetching system
2014-04-23T09:58:03Z Xach: stassats: which?
2014-04-23T09:58:11Z dim: that's v1.1 that, right?
2014-04-23T09:58:32Z stassats: Xach: "it's in beta"
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2014-04-23T09:59:43Z Xach: dim: I don't think so. I really want to make it easy to implement the not-uncommon desire to inhibit network activity, as well as make it possible for a user to have new ways to locally cache things or do dist development without a network roundtrip, etc.
2014-04-23T10:01:05Z Xach: I'd also like to make it possible to discover what a project does, or find projects that might do what you want.
2014-04-23T10:01:08Z dim: yeah, I just added similar capabilities to pginstall yesterday well before stable 1.0 release, so actually I understand your position (pginstall could be pictured as the Quicklisp for PostgreSQL Extensions, I'd be proud of that comparing)
2014-04-23T10:01:33Z dim: (https://github.com/dimitri/pginstall and it's coded in CL and C)
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2014-04-23T10:02:55Z dim: ok, so do you want to set a list of issues on github and create a milestone there, and affect the next issues to the stable milestone so that we can all help a little? I've been doing that for el-get (oh, another software distro thingy) and pgloader and it helped me, maybe it would help you?
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2014-04-23T10:03:18Z Xach: No.
2014-04-23T10:03:36Z dim: that's a very easy to parse answer ;-)
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2014-04-23T10:04:05Z Xach: Oh, I misread. Maybe.
2014-04-23T10:04:20Z Xach: I saw it as "do you want me to...". I'd like to do it, or something similar.
2014-04-23T10:04:48Z dim: oh yeah I'd be happy to help, but I sure don't want to be stepping on your toes, that usually helps nobody
2014-04-23T10:05:57Z Xach: dim: Part of the trouble for me is that completing these features may evolve the design in a way that isn't clear to me upfront. It's not just a matter of making it work, but of making it fit in, and possibly adapting where it fits in.
2014-04-23T10:07:00Z Xach: Someone sent me a patch for a authenticating proxy stuff, but it was implemented in a way that doesn't fit in well, and I haven't had time to figure out and write what needs to change, on both sides, to make it fit better.
2014-04-23T10:07:19Z dim: that's where cutting down the 1.0 feature set might help
2014-04-23T10:07:44Z dim: but then it's about priorities, do you want the feature set or a stable release more?
2014-04-23T10:08:05Z Xach: Well, at that point it's just an arbitary thing to satisfy people who don't know anything about how beta and 1.0 differ.
2014-04-23T10:08:06Z dim: I guess I know your answer already, because you've kind of spelled it out before ;-)
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2014-04-23T10:08:31Z dim: my position is more that I don't think "forever beta" helps anybody
2014-04-23T10:08:45Z Xach: It helps me!
2014-04-23T10:08:47Z dim: (I'm personnaly quite eager of being able to ship pgloader 3.1)
2014-04-23T10:09:09Z Xach: "Thanks for your bug report. Quicklisp is still beta."
2014-04-23T10:09:15Z dim: I don't think it does, because you said you're not feeling comfortable enough changing some important internal design now
2014-04-23T10:09:28Z dim: ship 1.0 then change the internal designs for 1.1 or 2.0, that's fair game
2014-04-23T10:09:29Z Xach: I don't remember saying that.
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2014-04-23T10:09:38Z Xach: Sorry if I gave that impression.
2014-04-23T10:09:44Z stassats: does anybody depends on the internals?
2014-04-23T10:09:46Z Xach: It is more an issue of time than desire.
2014-04-23T10:09:51Z dim: I read that in "It's not just a matter of making it work, but of making it fit in, and possibly adapting where it fits in."
2014-04-23T10:10:08Z Xach: dim: Yes, that is two things: comfort level with outside contributors, and time to do it properly myself.
2014-04-23T10:10:21Z stassats: afraid of quickbleed?
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2014-04-23T10:11:12Z dim: shipping 1.0 with the current design but less features might help you try things out in other branches, as you'd have already solved the timing issues
2014-04-23T10:11:15Z Xach: I don't want superficial patches that implement a useful desire in an ugly way.
2014-04-23T10:11:23Z dim: +1 to that
2014-04-23T10:11:59Z dim: the big Open Source lesson is that you can either have time based or feature based releases, right? you're saying feature base is fine to you even if it's another couple of years in beta
2014-04-23T10:12:05Z Xach: I think documentation may help people understand how to do something in a quicklispy way, but maybe it doesn't.
2014-04-23T10:12:12Z dim: I guess I can ack on that actually
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2014-04-23T10:12:24Z stassats: it's like gmail
2014-04-23T10:13:10Z dim: I think Google uses beta more like a shield to allow themselves removing the service at will when they see it's not making them enough money
2014-04-23T10:13:51Z Xach: dim: anyway, I would like to make a list of N things to do before calling it non-beta, prioritize the list for myself, and then get some feedback on that.
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2014-04-23T10:14:17Z dim: I'll happily give feedback and contribute if I can!
2014-04-23T10:15:11Z Xach: I'd really also like a website where people can discover useful things and provide feedback. quickdocs.org is kind of like that but not quite.
2014-04-23T10:15:59Z Xach: My website talents are at the point where I can see that something *I* made sucks, but not how to make it not suck.
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2014-04-23T10:18:00Z jdz: Xach: oh, we have something in common!
2014-04-23T10:19:04Z Xach has a couple days for more QL thoughts tomorrow & friday
2014-04-23T10:20:12Z dim: twitter bootstrap and other libs make me way more productive into delivering website that suck ;-)
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2014-04-23T10:57:44Z leo2007: Xach: can ql print info about a system such as its repo or home page?
2014-04-23T10:57:47Z leo2007: home url
2014-04-23T10:59:08Z Xach: leo2007: no. the repo info is available separately, though.
2014-04-23T11:01:13Z leo2007: how to get it?
2014-04-23T11:02:01Z Xach: https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects/
2014-04-23T11:02:36Z Xach: the source.txt files in that repo are what i use to gather software for quicklisp dists.
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2014-04-23T11:03:11Z leo2007: Xach: I also discovered this page http://www.quicklisp.org/beta/UNOFFICIAL/docs
2014-04-23T11:03:43Z Xach: That was an experiment I did a year or two ago.
2014-04-23T11:03:55Z leo2007: abandoned?
2014-04-23T11:03:57Z Xach: I was trying to make all library docs available for offline hacking use.
2014-04-23T11:04:11Z leo2007: would be very useful.
2014-04-23T11:04:12Z Xach: I think it's a useful thing to have, but it is not high on my priority list right now.
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2014-04-23T14:17:06Z dim: error in FORMAT: no more arguments while processing indirect format string: ~a ~a ~?~&
2014-04-23T14:17:23Z pjb: We'd have to see the indirect format strings and its arguments…
2014-04-23T14:17:27Z dim: is there a canonical way to protect against ~ in data when logging with ~{~} formats etc?
2014-04-23T14:17:40Z pjb: There'
2014-04-23T14:17:43Z pjb: s no need.
2014-04-23T14:17:44Z dim: pjb: it's in cl-log, from the backtrace
2014-04-23T14:17:51Z pjb: You need to protect against ~ in format strings.
2014-04-23T14:17:53Z pjb: Use ~~.
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2014-04-23T14:18:08Z dim: I can replace ~ with ~~ in the data before sending it over
2014-04-23T14:18:13Z dim: would that be how to do it?
2014-04-23T14:18:23Z pjb: I mean the logging function probably expects a format string, not a data string!
2014-04-23T14:18:32Z pjb: So you need to call it as "~A" data, not as data.
2014-04-23T14:18:57Z dim:         SB-DEBUG::ARG-1 = (#<~a> "ucouptroplong\"")
2014-04-23T14:19:09Z dim: pjb: right. let me see about that in my own code.
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2014-04-23T14:25:24Z dim: basically I would like to (apply #'cl-log:log-message category description arguments) but cl-log:log-message actually is a macro
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2014-04-23T14:25:58Z dim: do you have a trick around that?
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2014-04-23T14:28:05Z pjb: (apply #'cl-log:log-message category description "~A" arguments)
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2014-04-23T14:28:27Z pjb: let me see.
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2014-04-23T14:29:02Z pjb: It's the description that is a format string: (apply #'cl-log:log-message category "~{~A~^ ~}" arguments)
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2014-04-23T14:33:41Z dim: your solution scribble on the description string I have, that I want to keep
2014-04-23T14:33:57Z dim: here description is "~a" and arguments '("foo~abar")
2014-04-23T14:34:21Z dim: (format nil "~{~}" "~a" '("foo~abar"))
2014-04-23T14:34:39Z dim: that's what I'm using, and then I give the result to cl-log:log-message, because apply is out
2014-04-23T14:35:27Z dim: ; caught ERROR: The macro name COM.RAVENBROOK.COMMON-LISP-LOG:LOG-MESSAGE was found as the argument to FUNCTION.
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2014-04-23T14:47:56Z dim: mmm, trying (destructuring-bind (category description &rest arguments) params (call-log-message category description arguments)) with (defmacro call-log-message (category description arguments) `(cl-log:log-message ,category ,description ,@arguments)), but compile time error because arguments isn't a sequence...
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2014-04-23T14:49:09Z dim: I though &rest would guarantee I'm now dealing with a list
2014-04-23T14:49:53Z stassats: ARGUMENTS looks a symbol to me
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2014-04-23T14:51:33Z dim: that's true.
2014-04-23T14:53:33Z dim: so I'm back to square one, how do I use #'apply on a macro?
2014-04-23T14:53:43Z stassats: you don't
2014-04-23T14:54:17Z dim: yeah, I see that, is there a known workaround to doing that kind of things?
2014-04-23T14:54:45Z stassats: you should have written the macro as a function
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2014-04-23T14:55:19Z dim: the macro is from cl-log, where it's a macro so that it can avoid evaluating its arguments depending on the loglevel, IIUC
2014-04-23T14:56:29Z oGMo: you might write it as a function and a compiler-macro, though iirc compiler-macros aren't _guaranteed_ to be expanded by all CL's
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2014-04-23T14:56:53Z dim: I'm not maintaining cl-log tho
2014-04-23T14:56:56Z oGMo: but, it works for most
2014-04-23T14:57:07Z stassats: compiler macros is not a substitution for macros
2014-04-23T14:57:22Z oGMo: stassats: no, they're not, but this isn't a good use for a macro
2014-04-23T14:57:31Z oGMo: it's a great use for a function and compiler-macro though
2014-04-23T14:57:40Z oleo: do something and do something how, two pair shoes, they are duals.....
2014-04-23T14:58:12Z oGMo: dim: oh, i thought you wrre writing something using something else as an example
2014-04-23T14:58:12Z stassats: oGMo: conditional execution is a good use for a compiler-macro?
2014-04-23T14:58:22Z oGMo: stassats: conditional _compilation_ is
2014-04-23T14:58:57Z stassats: recompile to change the log level? that's sounds bizarre
2014-04-23T14:59:24Z oGMo: not really, if this isn't server logging or similar, you may well want to compile out any logging
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2014-04-23T15:00:02Z oGMo: if it's runtime conditional, macros aren't going to help either
2014-04-23T15:00:38Z oGMo: and really in that case you shouldn't be changing your evaluation conditionally like that
2014-04-23T15:00:46Z oGMo: (in that case)
2014-04-23T15:01:23Z dim: turns out pjb was spot on from the start and I missed his point
2014-04-23T15:01:35Z oGMo: (nor should you be giving mutating arguments to logging...)
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2014-04-23T15:49:26Z BitPuffin: so, when trying to "compile" a program with sbcl, I guess I use save-and-die? Is there a way to save it in a way that doesn't include the compiler in the image and stuff?
2014-04-23T15:49:37Z stassats: no
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2014-04-23T15:50:38Z BitPuffin: stassats: no to which question
2014-04-23T15:50:45Z oleo: the bare image is the compiler .....
2014-04-23T15:50:59Z nyef: No, you can't remove the compiler from the image and stuff.
2014-04-23T15:51:04Z Xach: BitPuffin: http://l1sp.org/cl/glossary/compile explains compilation in the context of CL
2014-04-23T15:51:05Z oleo: when you load libs and save you save the state with the loaded libs.....
2014-04-23T15:51:08Z nyef: Well... you might be able to...
2014-04-23T15:51:16Z oleo: otherwise thats why you have files.....
2014-04-23T15:51:18Z nyef: ... but it's not necessarily a great idea.
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2014-04-23T15:53:36Z BitPuffin: nyef: well if you only want to produce a binary that someone can run they don't necessarily need the compiler :P
2014-04-23T15:53:41Z oleo: you can give a toplevel function, a start point in the image.....
2014-04-23T15:53:43Z BitPuffin: you guys like to talk with dots
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2014-04-23T15:53:57Z nyef: If you're using CLOS, you might well need the compiler.
2014-04-23T15:55:01Z oleo: that's how you make executables.....
2014-04-23T15:55:03Z BitPuffin: Xach: that looks to be what I'm looking for, however how do I get to the part that tells me about the parameters and so on to the func?
2014-04-23T15:55:20Z oleo: pretend the compiler/repl was not there and get into the state with your start function called....
2014-04-23T15:55:58Z BitPuffin: ah wait found it
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2014-04-23T15:56:36Z oleo: save-lisp-and-die "name" :executable t ......
2014-04-23T15:56:44Z BitPuffin: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_cmp_fi.htm#compile-file
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2014-04-23T15:57:28Z BitPuffin: I'm confused about the &key part though
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2014-04-23T15:58:18Z oleo: &key means the parameters following it are keywords....
2014-04-23T15:58:39Z oleo: &key output-file means you call it like :output-file blah
2014-04-23T15:58:55Z Xach: BitPuffin: In common lisp, "compilation" is not related to "producing a file on disk you can run from a command-line".
2014-04-23T15:59:09Z Xach: Well, it is, but not directly or primarily.
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2014-04-23T15:59:24Z oleo: &key output-file verbose means you don't have to specify each and even none after the &key part....
2014-04-23T15:59:26Z Xach: BitPuffin: when i want to produce a file on disk i can run from the command-line, I use buildapp. there are other options, too.
2014-04-23T15:59:33Z oleo: you only need specify those which you really need
2014-04-23T15:59:41Z BitPuffin: oleo: ah I see :) ofc
2014-04-23T15:59:59Z oleo: like in the above :verbose t instead of :output-file when you don't want to send it's output to a file say....
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2014-04-23T16:00:19Z oleo: or you can even skip if defaults are ok for you....
2014-04-23T16:00:53Z BitPuffin: Xach: will buildapp optimize away the compiler?
2014-04-23T16:01:00Z oleo: :verbose will be probably defaulting to nil tho....
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2014-04-23T16:01:14Z BitPuffin: oleo: Yeah I'm familiar with key params
2014-04-23T16:01:18Z BitPuffin: it's nice :D
2014-04-23T16:01:24Z oleo: duh
2014-04-23T16:01:56Z oleo: never mind then.....
2014-04-23T16:02:07Z BitPuffin: :P
2014-04-23T16:02:08Z Xach: BitPuffin: no. no free Common Lisp does that.
2014-04-23T16:02:16Z BitPuffin: Xach: :(
2014-04-23T16:03:00Z Poenikatu: Could someone look at the paste at http://paste.lisp.org/+31RO (that's a letter oh) and explain why the form on line 43 changes the value bound to result21?
2014-04-23T16:03:16Z Xach: BitPuffin: don't be too sad -- that just means if you add it to a free Common Lisp, you will be treated as a hero & helper!
2014-04-23T16:03:18Z BitPuffin: there must be a way to odo it xD
2014-04-23T16:03:34Z BitPuffin: Xach: yeah I might have to
2014-04-23T16:03:36Z BitPuffin: :P
2014-04-23T16:03:56Z BitPuffin: although I'm not really a compiler dev
2014-04-23T16:04:07Z BitPuffin: perhaps in a lisp language it won't be such a mess though
2014-04-23T16:04:23Z stassats: which like is 43?
2014-04-23T16:04:24Z stassats: line
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2014-04-23T16:04:34Z H4ns: BitPuffin: why are you so concerned with the compiler being in the image?
2014-04-23T16:04:37Z Poenikatu: Sorry, line 44
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2014-04-23T16:05:39Z Poenikatu: Line 44 says: (SETF (CDR END-POINTER23) TEMP24)
2014-04-23T16:05:39Z BitPuffin: H4ns: Well, I care about being able to produce ideal binaries. And if the code doesn't use the compiler there is no need for it
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2014-04-23T16:06:07Z H4ns: BitPuffin: what is "an ideal binary"?  that is term unfamiliar to me.
2014-04-23T16:06:09Z stassats: well, it's loop collect
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2014-04-23T16:06:30Z BitPuffin: H4ns: well one that is optimized to full extent :)
2014-04-23T16:06:31Z stassats: Poenikatu: can you start with your original concern, not with a macroexpanded LOOP?
2014-04-23T16:06:49Z H4ns: BitPuffin: optimized to achieve what goal?
2014-04-23T16:07:01Z BitPuffin: H4ns: small footprint and size?
2014-04-23T16:07:02Z Poenikatu: stassats: The point is, I don't understand how the macroexpanded loop works.
2014-04-23T16:07:12Z stassats: what do you want to understand?
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2014-04-23T16:07:15Z stassats: (and why)
2014-04-23T16:07:27Z H4ns: BitPuffin: common lisp is not the right language to achieve that goal.
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2014-04-23T16:07:46Z BitPuffin: H4ns: I don't see why it wouldn't be
2014-04-23T16:07:50Z stassats: try assembly
2014-04-23T16:08:02Z Poenikatu: stassats: I have dry run the macroexpanded code 3 times and I do not get the result printed in the Iterate manual which is (A 2 C)
2014-04-23T16:08:08Z H4ns: BitPuffin: good luck.
2014-04-23T16:08:09Z oleo: depending on if result21 is bound it sets cdr of end-pointer23 to temp24......
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2014-04-23T16:08:45Z z0d: BitPuffin: CL is very different from, say C
2014-04-23T16:08:52Z stassats: Poenikatu: and which result are you getting?
2014-04-23T16:08:59Z Poenikatu: oleo: The point is that the only times that result21 is set is to a value in temp24, which is never a list with a length of more than 1
2014-04-23T16:09:00Z z0d: BitPuffin: it's hard to make an 'executable' which only contains the code you 'need'
2014-04-23T16:09:18Z Poenikatu: stassats: (a)
2014-04-23T16:09:25Z stassats: the form you pasted returns (A 2 C)
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2014-04-23T16:09:43Z H4ns: BitPuffin: it is possible, but a lot of work and you'll see why it is pointless when you're starting to spend your time on it.
2014-04-23T16:10:03Z H4ns: BitPuffin: as you may have guessed, you're not the first person to take offense in the size of cl image files.
2014-04-23T16:10:18Z stassats: you can just buy lispworks
2014-04-23T16:10:29Z stassats: and complain about the size of your wallet
2014-04-23T16:10:34Z BitPuffin: z0d: well as long as eval compile etc aren't called in the code I don't see why it wouldn't be to kinda simply remove it
2014-04-23T16:10:42Z BitPuffin: stassats: lol :P
2014-04-23T16:10:43Z Poenikatu: stassats: So LispWorks REPL tells me, but I don't understand how result21 gets that value. Its value is changed by the code in line 44, but since it's not mentioned in that line, how can its  bound value changw?
2014-04-23T16:10:46Z H4ns: stassats: that will still not give him "ideal" binaries
2014-04-23T16:10:47Z BitPuffin: Well I mean if they can
2014-04-23T16:10:49Z Poenikatu: *change
2014-04-23T16:10:54Z BitPuffin: we shouldn't be lesser than them :D
2014-04-23T16:10:56Z z0d: BitPuffin: because how CL works, it's not easy to do that
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2014-04-23T16:11:11Z BitPuffin: z0d: how do you mean?
2014-04-23T16:11:12Z stassats: "we"
2014-04-23T16:11:22Z H4ns: BitPuffin: "we" don't care about the size of our images.
2014-04-23T16:11:44Z BitPuffin: the open source lisp community
2014-04-23T16:11:53Z stassats: today i got SBCL running on my phone, fun?
2014-04-23T16:12:02Z BitPuffin: H4ns: I realize that it is not a big concern to everybody
2014-04-23T16:12:43Z z0d: BitPuffin: with CL you get a full blown environment with a REPL, introspection, being able to get an assembly of any function etc.
2014-04-23T16:12:57Z H4ns: BitPuffin: just start making it happen.  maybe you have more stamina than your predecessors
2014-04-23T16:12:59Z z0d: BitPuffin: just learn more about Lisp and you'll see why it's hard
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2014-04-23T16:13:13Z stassats: Poenikatu: you have to be more specific in describing your lack of understanding
2014-04-23T16:13:50Z BitPuffin: z0d: yeah, which is extremely useful during development (and some production usecases, such as that space thing where they were able to connect to it and fix it while it was live which was super cool)
2014-04-23T16:14:04Z BitPuffin: but in other deployments, no such functionality is needed
2014-04-23T16:14:15Z stassats: we got your argument
2014-04-23T16:14:38Z BitPuffin: H4ns: Yup, I will give it a shot once I get a bit more lisp experience
2014-04-23T16:14:43Z BitPuffin: for now I'll just have to live with it
2014-04-23T16:15:02Z dim: or relive ECL maybe
2014-04-23T16:15:06Z Poenikatu: stassats: Ok, here goes. In the code I pasted, the only time result21 is bound to a value is where the else-part of an if form binds it to the value bound to temp24. Nowhere else. But temp24 is always bound to a list with ONE element. So can result21 get bound to a longer list?
2014-04-23T16:15:22Z stassats: ILTWYS"a bit"
2014-04-23T16:15:25Z BitPuffin: ECL?
2014-04-23T16:15:25Z Poenikatu: *how can
2014-04-23T16:15:43Z ggole: BitPuffin: of course, that's what all of the previous hackers who wanted tree shaking said
2014-04-23T16:15:54Z dim: BitPuffin: a CL implementation that knows how to issue small .so and exe files
2014-04-23T16:15:57Z stassats: Poenikatu: cons cells can be mutated
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2014-04-23T16:16:24Z BitPuffin: dim: aha, well did it also produce fast code?
2014-04-23T16:16:25Z stassats: resul21 is always bound either to NIL or to a cons cell
2014-04-23T16:16:27Z z0d: BitPuffin: which langauges do you know?
2014-04-23T16:16:32Z stassats: the same cons cell
2014-04-23T16:16:36Z BitPuffin: z0d: quite a few
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2014-04-23T16:16:58Z dim: http://ecls.sourceforge.net/new-manual/ch32.html
2014-04-23T16:17:00Z Poenikatu: stassats: When you said "mutated" did you mean "changed"?
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2014-04-23T16:17:05Z z0d: BitPuffin: e.g.?
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2014-04-23T16:17:26Z dim: BitPuffin: that link was for you: http://ecls.sourceforge.net/new-manual/ch32.html
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2014-04-23T16:17:41Z BitPuffin: z0d: Java, D, C, C++, Ruby, Python, Nimrod, Javascript, a bit of Haskell and Rust and probably others I am forgetting lol
2014-04-23T16:17:57Z stassats remembers that he has commit access to ECL
2014-04-23T16:18:25Z stassats: where's flip214? he should totally make a new release
2014-04-23T16:18:32Z dim: stassats: here's a challenge, make pgloader work with ecl ;-)
2014-04-23T16:18:51Z stassats: what doesn't work?
2014-04-23T16:18:53Z dim: IIRC it wouldn't load lparallel
2014-04-23T16:19:06Z dim: or maybe it was another dependency
2014-04-23T16:19:24Z BitPuffin: z0d: forgot about objective-c which I use every day at work
2014-04-23T16:19:26Z stassats: i just loaded lparallel
2014-04-23T16:19:43Z dim: you have quicklisp in ecl? (ql:quickload "pgloader")?
2014-04-23T16:19:47Z Poenikatu: stassats: ILTWYS?
2014-04-23T16:20:04Z stassats: i never understood what constitutes "knowing a language"
2014-04-23T16:20:17Z z0d: BitPuffin: okay. if you have a module named Foo and you're only using Bar() in it, you'll still have to load the whole module (in most languages)
2014-04-23T16:20:21Z stassats: dim: i don't have quicklisp
2014-04-23T16:20:26Z z0d: even if you don't use the other functions
2014-04-23T16:20:39Z z0d: not a perfect example, but I hope it'll do
2014-04-23T16:20:42Z dim: stassats: git clone https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader.git then
2014-04-23T16:20:46Z BitPuffin: z0d: yes but with dead code elimination they are removed
2014-04-23T16:21:21Z stassats: dim: i'm not in the mood for figuring it out, actually
2014-04-23T16:21:40Z dim: yeah, no pb with that
2014-04-23T16:21:47Z dim: just another challenge for when you need noe
2014-04-23T16:21:49Z dim: one
2014-04-23T16:21:53Z z0d: it's like saying that when executing Python scripts, operators like + - * and / should not be loaded, because you don't use it
2014-04-23T16:21:55Z stassats: no lead?
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2014-04-23T16:22:06Z BitPuffin wonders if sbcl includes itself as well as itself
2014-04-23T16:22:07Z z0d: but Python has them anyways, so it loads them
2014-04-23T16:22:14Z BitPuffin: z0d: python is not compiled
2014-04-23T16:22:23Z BitPuffin: and I know, neither is lisp, but it can be :P
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2014-04-23T16:22:47Z Poenikatu: BitPuffin: Lisp is usually compiled
2014-04-23T16:22:54Z z0d: well, CL is compiled
2014-04-23T16:23:11Z BitPuffin: yeah, so python is completely irrelevant :D
2014-04-23T16:23:28Z stassats: python is the name of the compiler in SBCL
2014-04-23T16:23:32Z dim: some CL implementations compile to bytecode, ABCL and clisp come to mind
2014-04-23T16:23:37Z z0d: being compiled doesn't mean it's an executable in the end
2014-04-23T16:23:48Z BitPuffin: no I know
2014-04-23T16:23:57Z BitPuffin: but that's what I'm talking about
2014-04-23T16:24:03Z stassats: what worth is it compiling if you can't execute it?
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2014-04-23T16:24:11Z BitPuffin: you could compile it to a .doc file I dunno :P
2014-04-23T16:24:33Z z0d: by "executable" I meant an ELF/.exe/etc.
2014-04-23T16:24:50Z dim: BitPuffin: have you been playing with buildapp or the like yet?
2014-04-23T16:24:53Z axion: BitPuffin: use :compression 9. small programs are just a couple MB
2014-04-23T16:25:11Z z0d: long story short: most CLs don't have the feature you want. but in Lisp it is rarely needed (because of how CL works)
2014-04-23T16:25:33Z BitPuffin: dim: not yet, but Xach told me about it
2014-04-23T16:25:45Z z0d: CL is not a scripting language
2014-04-23T16:25:49Z dim: z0d: I'm not sure, it depends how you want to ship your software too
2014-04-23T16:25:54Z BitPuffin: yeah because it's so programable
2014-04-23T16:26:02Z BitPuffin: although I don't consider this a language feature
2014-04-23T16:26:15Z dim: mostly you don't care about .exe because you're operating the software and CL is best operated within a full blown development environment
2014-04-23T16:26:36Z stassats: i never understood the term "scripting language" either
2014-04-23T16:26:41Z dim: but if you want to ship your software and have users (non-hackers users) operate it, then being able to build a binary image is important
2014-04-23T16:26:41Z z0d: nothing in the CL standard fordibs you from writing that feature
2014-04-23T16:26:57Z Xach: Well, there's a distinction to be made between "It would be nice to have but you can live without it and here's how" and "CL doesn't have it and it's hard to do so it's not needed!"
2014-04-23T16:26:58Z oGMo: BitPuffin: you're sortof thinking about it wrong; it's standard library. in the case of CL, the "standard library" includes the compiler (if there is a compiler)
2014-04-23T16:27:09Z dim: so I'm not sure about rarely needed, but well, we still do have the feature anyways
2014-04-23T16:27:22Z z0d: ok, I take it back
2014-04-23T16:27:28Z BitPuffin: oGMo: yeah, and code that uses the compiler in it should include the compiler in the binary
2014-04-23T16:27:29Z oleo: 58M uncompressed 13M compressed with --compress-core via buildapp ;; hello-world app
2014-04-23T16:27:47Z BitPuffin: if not it is dead code
2014-04-23T16:27:49Z oGMo: BitPuffin: so you want to make a libc without stdio because you don't use that?
2014-04-23T16:27:51Z BitPuffin: so kill bury it :P
2014-04-23T16:27:55Z dim: for pgloader it's more like 100MB down to 20MB, FWIW
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2014-04-23T16:28:01Z BitPuffin: oGMo: no? don't be silly
2014-04-23T16:28:08Z oGMo: BitPuffin: why? you're being equally silly
2014-04-23T16:28:27Z axion: just buy a LW license and end the useless convo
2014-04-23T16:28:29Z BitPuffin: oGMo: not at all, have you ever used a language with dead code elimination?
2014-04-23T16:28:44Z oGMo: like CL?
2014-04-23T16:28:46Z stassats: dim: disable sb-doc, sb-source-locations, compile with debug 0
2014-04-23T16:28:54Z stassats: (get an undebuggable image)
2014-04-23T16:29:05Z nyef: Dead code elimination isn't a LANGUAGE feature.
2014-04-23T16:29:08Z dim: can I have undebuggable image and trivial-backtrace?
2014-04-23T16:29:15Z BitPuffin: nyef: exactly
2014-04-23T16:29:22Z stassats: dim: yes
2014-04-23T16:29:23Z Xach: stassats: do you disable sb-doc & sb-source-locations when building sbcl? or can you do it later?
2014-04-23T16:29:23Z H4ns: wow!  it was such an awesome experience when all the dead code was eliminated.
2014-04-23T16:29:31Z BitPuffin: I'm pretty sure I said that 40 seconds ago or so
2014-04-23T16:29:31Z H4ns: it made me so much more productive.
2014-04-23T16:29:35Z stassats: Xach: when building sbcl
2014-04-23T16:29:55Z Xach: stassats: ok.
2014-04-23T16:30:00Z stassats: i suppose sb-source-locations can theoretically be disabled later for newly compiled code
2014-04-23T16:30:05Z BitPuffin: oGMo: well if the compiler is dead code it should be eliminated then? :P
2014-04-23T16:30:05Z Xach ponders having two sbcls, a slim one and a debuggable one.
2014-04-23T16:30:18Z Xach: BitPuffin: that's a little more difficult in the presence of eval
2014-04-23T16:30:19Z dim: are those a couple of --with switches? I might read about them, but I think I'm ok with 20MB binary images nowadays, I made peace with that
2014-04-23T16:30:31Z stassats: sb-eval can be disabled most of the time too
2014-04-23T16:30:34Z oGMo: BitPuffin: what you're asking for is like building libc without a chunk of standard code
2014-04-23T16:30:37Z dim: and I do need the compiler at runtime for pgloader
2014-04-23T16:30:48Z BitPuffin: Xach: yes, if eval is being used, the compiler is obviously not dead code, so don't eliminate it
2014-04-23T16:30:54Z stassats: sb-ldb can go too
2014-04-23T16:31:07Z oGMo: eval, CLOS, ...
2014-04-23T16:31:21Z nyef: I've actually been pleasantly surprised a few times recently about sb-ldb actually being useful.
2014-04-23T16:31:41Z BitPuffin: oGMo: no what I am saying if I have included libc sources and build against those rather than a system .so file, only include what I'm using in the binary, which any half decent compiler will get right
2014-04-23T16:31:46Z Xach: oGMo: sure, it would be nice to have that option in CL.
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2014-04-23T16:32:04Z Xach: I wish someone would do it so there was a choice.
2014-04-23T16:32:10Z Xach does not want to do it, though
2014-04-23T16:32:45Z stassats: i have a fast-sbcl for compiling sbcl
2014-04-23T16:32:48Z oGMo: Xach: an implementation might .. i think someone pointed out LW.. but in SBCL afaik the compiler isn't something easily discarded
2014-04-23T16:33:02Z stassats: it has (disable :sb-doc) (disable :sb-thread) (disable :sb-unicode) (disable :sb-eval) (disable :sb-package-locks) (disable :sb-source-locations) (disable :package-local-nicknames)
2014-04-23T16:33:28Z oGMo: also the image is mmap'd isn't it? much like a .so
2014-04-23T16:33:30Z BitPuffin: well if the proprietary compilers can do it then open source ones should be able to as well
2014-04-23T16:33:35Z stassats: and optimizations turned up to (safety 0) (space 1) (speed 3)
2014-04-23T16:33:44Z phadthai: BitPuffin: I have an executable made with ECL, which is approximately 44KB (and has useful code, possibly that the smallest possible executable would be smaller), the rest is shared libraries
2014-04-23T16:33:51Z oGMo: what would imo be nicer is compiling to .so's and loading those ;)
2014-04-23T16:34:11Z axion: You'd need some pretty hefty heuristics to get SBCL to do what you want, but it's not impossible if you want to try
2014-04-23T16:34:21Z axion: LW has a tree-shaker. I've yet to see any comparison with binary sizes, but it is an option.
2014-04-23T16:34:30Z Xach: stassats: how much difference does it make?
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2014-04-23T16:34:44Z Xach: oGMo: that would be cool too. let's have all the nice features!
2014-04-23T16:34:44Z BitPuffin: phadthai: yeah but since someone said "revive ECL" earlier I assume it is dead?
2014-04-23T16:34:45Z stassats: don't recall
2014-04-23T16:34:58Z stassats: at least 10 seconds
2014-04-23T16:35:04Z Xach: cool.
2014-04-23T16:35:06Z oGMo: Xach: if someone has the time!
2014-04-23T16:35:18Z phadthai: BitPuffin: but does CL change that much? There's an established standard, which is now rather old even
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2014-04-23T16:36:17Z BitPuffin: phadthai: sure, but you probably want to use something that is actively being developed, if this was added in say sbcl, then it will be in a codebase that is still being maintained and getting bug fixes and optimizations etc
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2014-04-23T16:37:46Z Xach: oGMo: and money
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2014-04-23T16:39:30Z Krystof: money!
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2014-04-23T16:40:58Z stassats: there should be mass-energy-like equivalence between time and money
2014-04-23T16:43:06Z rszeno conservation law: quality-time-money, Noether theorem, :)
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2014-04-23T16:50:28Z Xach: money money money money
2014-04-23T16:51:33Z phadthai: developers, developers, developers
2014-04-23T16:52:20Z rszeno: work, work, work?
2014-04-23T16:55:34Z BitPuffin: developers developesr developers developers developers developers
2014-04-23T16:55:43Z BitPuffin: de VEL opers
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2014-04-23T17:03:16Z syao: hello, I have a question on data structure and immutability. Better explained in image http://www.gliffy.com/go/publish/image/5656201/L.png
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2014-04-23T17:04:09Z stassats: wrong channel?
2014-04-23T17:04:48Z syao: stassats, what could be the the channel to ask? In fact I do not know
2014-04-23T17:05:00Z stassats: neither do i
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2014-04-23T17:07:56Z z0d: #homework, maybe? <-:
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2014-04-23T17:09:22Z syao: z0d it is not a homework
2014-04-23T17:09:45Z syao: just a persistence and data analysis problem that got in to my head
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2014-04-23T17:17:52Z BitPuffin will probably end up writing his own GOAL eventually lol
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2014-04-23T17:25:38Z Xach: they used Allegro CL for that.
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2014-04-23T17:26:10Z BitPuffin: Xach: yeah, did they just do it with macros or did they write an actual compiler
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2014-04-23T17:26:46Z Xach: Actual compiler, debugger, and everything else to go with it, as I understand. The people who did it were very, very, very talented.
2014-04-23T17:28:06Z pjb: syao: What do the arrows represent?
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2014-04-23T17:28:25Z syao: pjb, references to the data
2014-04-23T17:28:43Z syao: *one way ones
2014-04-23T17:29:30Z BitPuffin: Xach: indeed
2014-04-23T17:29:30Z pjb: Do you mean that having a reference to data2, you want to be able to find a reference to data1 or data3, without anything else?
2014-04-23T17:29:47Z BitPuffin: Xach: well they still use Lisp a little bit, Racket in fact
2014-04-23T17:30:58Z BitPuffin: pjb: lol thought you said dota 2, I was like huh? in #lisp??
2014-04-23T17:31:17Z syao: pjb, the problem is such: when I edit Data2, I would like to create copy of all the virtual group with the edited data.  then I use new group
2014-04-23T17:32:10Z pjb: This doesn't seem quite immutable.  "edit", "edited" is mutation!
2014-04-23T17:32:24Z pjb: By next question whas what should be immutable?
2014-04-23T17:32:27Z pjb: My
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2014-04-23T17:33:10Z syao: the virtual group 1
2014-04-23T17:33:40Z pjb: Perhaps you are confusing immutability wit identity.
2014-04-23T17:33:59Z pjb: You can reify virtual-group-1.  So it has an identity, while you can mutate its internals.
2014-04-23T17:34:15Z pjb: But if you want immutability, you will lose identity.
2014-04-23T17:34:34Z pjb: To implement immutability when things changes, we have to make copies, and this involves new identities.
2014-04-23T17:34:50Z syao: pjb, yes
2014-04-23T17:35:39Z syao: but the main idea is: the virtual groups should be easily created on run time
2014-04-23T17:35:57Z pjb: Anything is easily created: (create-thing).
2014-04-23T17:36:09Z pjb: or in clos: (make-instance 'thing)
2014-04-23T17:36:51Z pjb: You haven't answered on what should be immutable and what can be mutable.  Eg. can we add or remove data nodes in the group? Can we add or remove references between nodes in the group?
2014-04-23T17:37:25Z pjb: Can we replace a node by another node?  If we replace data2 with data2' shall data4 refer to data2' or to the old data2 that's not in the group anymore?
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2014-04-23T17:39:14Z pjb: syao: basically, when you have mutation, you have operators such as: (assert (old-state-p group)) (modify-group-in-such-way group arguments)  (assert (new-state-p group))
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2014-04-23T17:39:49Z pjb: when you have immutability, you have operators such as:  (assert (old-state-p group)) (assert (new-state-p (make-new-group-modified-in-such-way group arguments))) (assert (old-state-p group))
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2014-04-23T17:42:12Z pjb: syao: If you want to persist in immutable data structure, I guess I would have to advise you this book: http://www.amazon.com/Purely-Functional-Structures-Chris-Okasaki/dp/0521663504
2014-04-23T17:42:35Z pjb: (which I haven't read but heard it was the reference for this).
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2014-04-23T17:46:32Z syao: pjb, the bad thing that the data is not seamless
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2014-04-23T17:46:44Z syao: *I fif read okasaki
2014-04-23T17:46:50Z syao: *I did read okasaki
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2014-04-23T17:47:58Z pjb: Since lisp is a hybrid language, you must decide what part will be immutable and what part will be mutable.  You need to answer all those questions, and design an API matching those requirements.
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2014-04-23T17:49:01Z pjb: And depending on those requirements, you have to use fat objects (clos objects with references to the ADT) instead of plain-old-data objects (lisp objects without references).
2014-04-23T17:49:15Z pjb: you may have to…
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2014-04-23T17:55:59Z Shinmera: nope.
2014-04-23T17:56:03Z Shinmera: whoops wrong channel
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2014-04-23T18:04:09Z syao: pjb, you may have to...?
2014-04-23T18:07:25Z phadthai: to use "fat" objects
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2014-04-23T19:32:27Z oleo: gah, combinatorial logic is even worse!
2014-04-23T19:32:57Z Sir_herrbatka: oleo: what you are trying to do? :-)
2014-04-23T19:33:04Z oleo: (I x) = x, ((K x) y) = x) == (K x y) = x
2014-04-23T19:33:15Z oleo: fewww
2014-04-23T19:33:23Z stassats: wrong channel?
2014-04-23T19:33:26Z oleo: ups
2014-04-23T19:33:28Z oleo: sorry
2014-04-23T19:33:34Z Sir_herrbatka: oleo: don't worry
2014-04-23T19:33:43Z Sir_herrbatka: http://wklej.org/id/1341186/
2014-04-23T19:33:46Z oleo: lol
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2014-04-23T19:58:41Z jasom: hmm, I missed an earlier discussion of shipping executables; ecl and clisp make quite compact executables, FWIW
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2014-04-23T19:59:14Z Denommus: jasom: isn't clisp GPL, though?
2014-04-23T19:59:22Z jasom: Denommus: yes, thanks to readline
2014-04-23T20:00:25Z Denommus: jasom: ECL is LGPL, which may be quite problematic if you must deploy a massive binary for your target (let's say, an Android APK).
2014-04-23T20:00:59Z jasom: remember, clisp is just a derivitive work of readline
2014-04-23T20:01:24Z Denommus: yeah, I get that
2014-04-23T20:01:44Z oGMo: well if you don't like it don't use the code
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2014-04-23T20:02:12Z jasom: Denommus: clisp has an exception for application distribution
2014-04-23T20:02:13Z oGMo: i mean, readline isn't that hard to duplicate unless you want all the complicated (and iirc, poorly-documented) stuff
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2014-04-23T20:03:11Z Denommus: anyway, the size of the binary is mostly irrelevant if you're developing for a desktop or a server anyway :-P
2014-04-23T20:04:31Z oGMo: https://github.com/antirez/linenoise <- fwiw
2014-04-23T20:04:46Z jasom: oGMo: I know, I use linenoise in some of my applications
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2014-04-23T20:04:57Z oGMo: jasom: oh nice, good then?
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2014-04-23T20:05:32Z jasom: yeah, I just found the whole clisp/readline thing to be odd; it ships and compiles and runs without readline, but since it optionally can use readline it must be GPLed.
2014-04-23T20:05:35Z oGMo: basic history/editing/etc can be done in very few lines, i assume this is less trivial
2014-04-23T20:05:48Z splittist: In an age when billions download megabytes of ringtones over cell networks, worrying about the size of lisp executables seems bizarre.
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2014-04-23T20:05:58Z dRbiG: hello
2014-04-23T20:06:05Z oGMo: yeah and readline was the only player for awhile .. which is somewhat boggling
2014-04-23T20:06:15Z PuercoPop: What should I use instead of (read) to get a string (which implies an encoding) out of a stream? apparently read trims whitespace: http://paste.lisp.org/+31RR
2014-04-23T20:06:36Z jasom: PuercoPop: read-sequnce
2014-04-23T20:06:40Z jasom: clhs read-sequence
2014-04-23T20:06:40Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_seq.htm
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2014-04-23T20:07:02Z oGMo: how is there no CL wrapper for this
2014-04-23T20:07:15Z PuercoPop: thanks
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2014-04-23T20:09:38Z oGMo: ah there is also libedit which is bigger but builds as a .so and my dist has it
2014-04-23T20:10:47Z splittist: PuercoPop: depending on what your stream is, babel might be interesting to look at.
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2014-04-23T20:19:25Z PuercoPop: splittist: in this case it is a test helper fun, i'll keep it in mind if it becomes needed down the line. I solved with the problem read-char and concatenate.
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2014-04-23T20:37:51Z faheem_: hi, trivial question -> (make-array 5 :fill-pointer 0 :adjustable t :element-type 'char) gives me #(). what type does it think it is using? not char
2014-04-23T20:38:01Z faheem_: not character, sorry
2014-04-23T20:38:21Z faheem_: (make-array 5 :fill-pointer 0 :adjustable t :element-type 'character) => ""
2014-04-23T20:38:37Z stassats: did you answer your question?
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2014-04-23T20:38:51Z faheem_: stassats: i did?
2014-04-23T20:39:01Z Xach: faheem_: CHAR is not a standard type.
2014-04-23T20:39:23Z faheem_: Xach: yes, i couldn't find it on the clhs
2014-04-23T20:39:38Z faheem_: so, what is it then?
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2014-04-23T20:39:51Z stassats: T
2014-04-23T20:40:02Z Bike: (type-of (make-array 5 ...)) => (AND (VECTOR CHARACTER 5) (NOT SIMPLE-ARRAY)) is one
2014-04-23T20:40:38Z Bike: what are you not understanding, precisely?
2014-04-23T20:41:17Z faheem_: Bike: i was wondering what type "char" was supposed to be here. and if you are trying to explain that, sorry, but I'm not following
2014-04-23T20:41:21Z Xach: I find it a little unexpected that using a symbol that does not name a type upgrades to T.
2014-04-23T20:41:36Z faheem_: stassats: are you saying the symbol is replaced by T?
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2014-04-23T20:41:38Z Xach: I would have expected an error, but I guess the upgrading policy seems like it explains it.
2014-04-23T20:41:48Z Bike: clhs u-a-e-t
2014-04-23T20:41:49Z specbot: upgraded-array-element-type: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_upgr_1.htm
2014-04-23T20:42:02Z faheem_: Bike: ok. looking now
2014-04-23T20:42:02Z Bike: "Exceptional situations: none" i guess
2014-04-23T20:42:17Z Xach: http://l1sp.org/cl/15.1.2.1 is what I was looking at
2014-04-23T20:42:31Z stassats: there will be a warning, won't there be?
2014-04-23T20:42:38Z Xach: I saw no warning
2014-04-23T20:42:54Z stassats: ; caught WARNING: ;   Undefined type CHAR. Note that name CHAR is reserved by ANSI CL, so code ;   defining a type with that name would not be portable.
2014-04-23T20:43:01Z faheem_: huh, it seems to expect anything.
2014-04-23T20:43:13Z faheem_: accept, sorry
2014-04-23T20:43:19Z Xach: stassats: In the repl?
2014-04-23T20:43:21Z faheem_: i'm using ccl, no warning here
2014-04-23T20:43:23Z Bike: stassats: for what? i don't see a warning either
2014-04-23T20:43:25Z stassats: or ; compilation unit finished ;   Undefined type: ;     COAL
2014-04-23T20:43:41Z stassats: repl, who fishes for warnings in the repl? that's for compilation
2014-04-23T20:43:44Z Xach: faheem_: if you later define the type, you will be able to store objects of that type in the array that already exists.
2014-04-23T20:43:51Z Bike: oh yeah, you do get it for compile
2014-04-23T20:43:59Z faheem_: Xach: i see.
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2014-04-23T20:44:13Z faheem_: stassats: ok.
2014-04-23T20:44:16Z faheem_: i didn
2014-04-23T20:44:28Z faheem_: i didn't realise the repl didn't do a compile
2014-04-23T20:44:35Z faheem_: on ccl
2014-04-23T20:44:41Z stassats: it does
2014-04-23T20:44:42Z Bike: it doesn't for simple function calls, probably
2014-04-23T20:44:49Z faheem_: Bike: ok
2014-04-23T20:44:56Z Bike: you can force it with (compile nil '(lambda () (make-array 5 ...))) or something
2014-04-23T20:45:09Z faheem_: thanks for the clarifications/explanations
2014-04-23T20:45:37Z faheem_: Xach: how does it allocate storage for an arbitary type without knowing what it is?
2014-04-23T20:46:01Z Bike: just keeps the objects fully tagged and all
2014-04-23T20:46:05Z Bike: same way CONS works on everything
2014-04-23T20:46:22Z faheem_: Bike: ok
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2014-04-23T20:46:42Z Xach: faheem_: you could think of it as storing enough room for a pointer to any object.
2014-04-23T20:47:00Z faheem_: Xach: i see.
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2014-04-23T20:47:33Z stassats: it's not allocation for an arbitrary type, it's allocating for T
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2014-04-23T21:14:30Z jasom: oGMo: I wrote a modified linenoise with a CL wrapper
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2014-04-23T21:18:20Z jasom: though at under 900 lines of C, it might be easier to just port
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2014-04-23T21:35:52Z bja: hello
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2014-04-23T21:45:50Z jasom: hello bja
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2014-04-23T21:47:21Z jasom: faheem_: arrrays that aren't specialized (i.e. can hold any type) a typical implementation stores a tagged pointer (and certain types that are smaller than the pointer type go there without the indirection)
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2014-04-23T21:51:34Z pjb: jasom: you may want to try vacietis on it. https://github.com/vsedach/Vacietis
2014-04-23T21:51:59Z jasom: pjb: will that allow you to make system calls?
2014-04-23T21:52:06Z jasom: particularly ones that take struct pointers?
2014-04-23T21:52:30Z jasom: I'm pretty sure it won't due to its memory model
2014-04-23T21:52:34Z pjb: FFI can be used. I  don't know how it is integrated in vacietis.
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2014-04-23T21:52:58Z pjb: But indeed, it will involve a FFI.
2014-04-23T21:53:01Z jasom: 1/3 of the code in linenoise is doing fd munging
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2014-04-23T21:53:24Z jasom: but I suppose the rest of it could be done in vacietis just fine
2014-04-23T21:53:57Z jasom: Is there a general solution for calling into system libraries that need you to allocate a struct?
2014-04-23T21:54:18Z jasom: the issue being that on bsd and linux (and different versions of those) the struct will have a different layout
2014-04-23T21:54:21Z pjb: CFFI and swig I'd say.
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2014-04-23T21:54:44Z jasom: I know that iolib handles it by writing a portability layer in C
2014-04-23T21:54:44Z pjb: You will have to run swig on those various systems and versions.
2014-04-23T21:55:12Z jasom: is the cffi groveller up to the challenge?
2014-04-23T21:55:33Z pjb: For C API, it's good enough.  For C++ with templates, it's a different story.
2014-04-23T21:55:56Z jasom: nothing really works for C++, let alone C++ with templates
2014-04-23T21:56:15Z jasom: smoke works for Qt, but I tried it on two random C++ libraries and in both cases it crashed
2014-04-23T21:57:12Z jasom: hmm, the cffi groveller has an example of exactly what I'm trying to do, along with ASDF integration; I think that's the way to go.
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2014-04-23T22:03:35Z faheem_: jasom: i see. thanks.
2014-04-23T22:04:05Z faheem_: if i define a function, the function defn returns the name of the function. why is that the value of the expression?
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2014-04-23T22:06:05Z jasom: faheem_: I don't know; that's what it's specified to do; defun is usually used when you want to define a function to use later; (lambda()) is used if you want to refer to the function immediately
2014-04-23T22:06:31Z faheem_: jasom: right. i was referring to defun.
2014-04-23T22:06:36Z White_Flame: the name itself is a valid function designator, though, if you do want to chain it somehow
2014-04-23T22:06:43Z jasom: (progn (defun foo () ...) (symbol-function 'foo)) will return the function itself
2014-04-23T22:06:54Z faheem_: is this behavior functional - meaning is that value used for something later?
2014-04-23T22:07:01Z White_Flame: (symbol-function (defun foo ()... ))
2014-04-23T22:07:26Z jasom: White_Flame: even better, since it obviously can't be a toplevel form if you are using the result
2014-04-23T22:08:01Z jasom: faheem_: the primary purpose of defun is for its side-effect: establishing a function binding in the global environment; so it's not generally functional
2014-04-23T22:08:03Z White_Flame: The return value of defun is rarely if ever used, so I presume the fact that it's a short output item might have played in the decision
2014-04-23T22:08:42Z White_Flame: better than no value, I guess
2014-04-23T22:09:23Z faheem_: i don't see this mentioned in http://www.ai.mit.edu/projects/iiip/doc/CommonLISP/HyperSpec/Body/mac_defun.html
2014-04-23T22:09:25Z jasom: Can you even use the result of a function definition in e.g. haskell?
2014-04-23T22:09:39Z White_Flame: " => function-name "
2014-04-23T22:09:41Z jasom: faheem_: => function-name
2014-04-23T22:09:44Z jasom: 4th line of that page
2014-04-23T22:09:50Z faheem_: i take that back
2014-04-23T22:09:52Z faheem_: sorry
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2014-04-23T22:11:04Z White_Flame: (funcall (defun inc (x) (1+ x)) 3) -> 4
2014-04-23T22:11:33Z jasom: White_Flame: don't do that.
2014-04-23T22:11:48Z White_Flame: well, you asked if it could be used ;)
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2014-04-23T22:12:24Z White_Flame: oh, thought you were saying haskell could, wondering if Lisp could, n/m
2014-04-23T22:12:54Z jasom: White_Flame: I was wondering if you could do something like (factorial 0 = 1) 0 and I think you cant
2014-04-23T22:13:09Z jasom: White_Flame: in haskell that is
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2014-04-23T22:14:07Z White_Flame: looking at haskell repl examples, it seems that many declarations do not return any value
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2014-04-23T22:14:55Z jasom: that's what I thought; in general the idea of establishing a new function isn't pure, since it implicitly makes a modification to the global environment
2014-04-23T22:14:58Z White_Flame: from the little I know if it, doesn't it expect to be statically compiled?
2014-04-23T22:15:06Z jasom: White_Flame: yes
2014-04-23T22:15:33Z jasom: lisp has some facilities for allowing the dynamic redefinition of functions, so you could defun twice (so long as you get your declarations right)
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2014-04-23T22:16:31Z White_Flame: I would consider that well-supported, though it can implementation-specific optimization and type detection assumptions
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2014-04-23T22:16:42Z White_Flame: ...can break
2014-04-23T22:16:58Z jasom: White_Flame: there is an implementation independent way to get it right
2014-04-23T22:17:28Z jasom: White_Flame: notinline means you can redefine it at will, inline means you can't neither means all functions in the same file can assume it won't be redefined
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2014-04-23T22:20:03Z White_Flame: I'm not seeing a mention of where neither is used, in the inline/notinline clhs page
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2014-04-23T22:21:02Z jasom: White_Flame: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_bbc.htm
2014-04-23T22:22:09Z White_Flame: " Except in the situations explicitly listed above, a function defined in the evaluation environment is permitted to have a different definition or a different signature at run time, and the run-time definition prevails. "
2014-04-23T22:22:17Z White_Flame: yeah, was on that page, too
2014-04-23T22:22:28Z jasom: that mentions the notinline restriction
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2014-04-23T22:22:51Z White_Flame: right, but that last line implies that the default would allow for function redefinition, barring those cases like recursion
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2014-04-23T22:23:20Z jasom: or functions in the same file
2014-04-23T22:24:01Z jasom: A call within a file to a named function that is defined in the same file refers to that function, unless that function has been declared notinline. The consequences are unspecified if functions are redefined individually at run time or multiply defined in the same file.
2014-04-23T22:24:01Z White_Flame: oh, you did mention 'in the same file' above
2014-04-23T22:24:58Z White_Flame: we still need to get away from text streams in files as semantic code units. (we = the software industry in general)
2014-04-23T22:25:07Z jasom: I strongly disagree
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2014-04-23T22:25:14Z jasom: but I think we've had this argument before
2014-04-23T22:25:40Z White_Flame: declarative grouping should be more flexible than that
2014-04-23T22:26:05Z White_Flame: and that's all I'll say, to not bother with such arguments :)
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2014-04-23T22:29:07Z faheem_: so, read-sequence just uses available space in the sequence, which has to be pre-allocated?
2014-04-23T22:29:15Z jasom: faheem_: yes
2014-04-23T22:29:16Z faheem_: is there a varition where it doesn't?
2014-04-23T22:29:33Z faheem_: variation, sorry
2014-04-23T22:30:38Z jasom: faheem_: https://github.com/jasom/pdfparse/blob/master/pdfparse.lisp#L29 <--- there's a python like read function if that's what you're asking
2014-04-23T22:31:27Z jasom: I was porting some python code and implemented that to ease the porting
2014-04-23T22:32:08Z stassats: calculating factorials on a phone with a freshly ported SBCL to ARM is so much fun
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2014-04-23T22:32:39Z jasom: how long until there's an apk?
2014-04-23T22:32:52Z jasom: ;)
2014-04-23T22:33:02Z stassats: we just got a REPL today
2014-04-23T22:33:10Z jasom: congrats
2014-04-23T22:33:13Z jasom: That's huge
2014-04-23T22:33:29Z White_Flame: nice
2014-04-23T22:33:40Z jasom: By far the biggest platform with no sbcl
2014-04-23T22:34:38Z faheem_: jasom: yes, i guess i do want a python like read function. which doesn't require preallocation.
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2014-04-23T22:34:42Z heddwch: :O What ARM version are you targetting? It'd be nice not to use clozure only for the raspberry pi
2014-04-23T22:34:58Z stassats: it runs on raspberry pi
2014-04-23T22:35:02Z heddwch: :D
2014-04-23T22:36:17Z jasom: faheem_: you could probably also get it by doing something like (with-output-to-string (s) (loop for ch = (read-char input-stream nil nil) while ch (write-char ch s)))
2014-04-23T22:36:21Z faheem_: jasom: pythonic-read , right? is it ok if I borrow it?
2014-04-23T22:36:32Z jasom: faheem_: go ahead, consider it public domain
2014-04-23T22:36:34Z White_Flame: of course, that version requires the size parameter
2014-04-23T22:36:43Z faheem_: jasom: thanks
2014-04-23T22:36:55Z jasom: though the rest of that file is MIT/X11 IIRC
2014-04-23T22:37:42Z jasom: faheem_: note that it was a quick and dirty implementation, so who knows what the perfomance is like
2014-04-23T22:38:06Z jasom: I had 10kloc of python code to port and no time to waste on things like performance :)
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2014-04-23T22:40:09Z faheem_: jasom: my impression is that porting is often in the other direction.
2014-04-23T22:40:12Z faheem_: :-)
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2014-04-23T22:40:54Z jasom: well in this case, I was distributing a binary.  I have no idea how to distribute a python executable on windows, particularly one that depends on non-core packages, some of which are implemented in C
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2014-04-23T22:43:51Z faheem_: jasom: i see.
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2014-04-23T22:50:04Z faheem_: ccl lets me use a keyword twice. shouldn't it complain?
2014-04-23T22:50:07Z faheem_: (make-array 5 :fill-pointer 0 :adjustable t :element-type 'character :initial-element #\A :fill-pointer 3 )
2014-04-23T22:50:16Z faheem_: and it uses 0 not 3
2014-04-23T22:50:35Z stassats: no, it's standard
2014-04-23T22:52:18Z jasom: faheem_: it makes it easy to override keyword args with apply
2014-04-23T22:52:33Z jasom: though I don't know if that's the reason for it
2014-04-23T22:55:57Z faheem_: jasom: ok
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2014-04-23T22:56:05Z faheem_: stassats: ok
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2014-04-23T23:02:28Z faheem_: i'm confused. (make-array 100 :fill-pointer 0 :adjustable t :initial-element #\A  :element-type 'character) looks empty, and returns length 0. but PCL implies that it is just looks empty because the fill pointer is at the beginning.
2014-04-23T23:02:45Z faheem_: it is -> it
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2014-04-23T23:05:33Z jasom: There is storage backing it up to 100 elements.  It is arguably still empty though
2014-04-23T23:06:16Z jasom: you can use (array-total-size) if you are curious
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2014-04-23T23:07:45Z faheem_: jasom: at least read-sequence seems to only see the bit before the fill pointer.
2014-04-23T23:08:12Z faheem_: i didn't see this documented
2014-04-23T23:09:37Z jasom: faheem_: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/t_seq.htm
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2014-04-23T23:10:50Z faheem_: jasom: oh, i see. thanks.
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2014-04-24T00:33:57Z drmeister: Why does the Common Lisp specification not explicitly require garbage collection? Is there any conceivable way to avoid GC?
2014-04-24T00:34:27Z drmeister ponders this whilst debugging his garbage collector.
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2014-04-24T00:36:49Z drmeister: Especially since Lisp was the first widespread language to implement GC and it's been a part of Lisp for half a century.
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2014-04-24T00:46:55Z Xach: drmeister: you could just allocate and never free.
2014-04-24T00:47:04Z Xach: when memory fills up, reboot
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2014-04-24T00:48:22Z drmeister: That has been my modus operandi more times than I'd like to admit.
2014-04-24T00:49:15Z nyef: The classic thing to do with a Lisp system was to turn off the GC, use it for the day, turn the GC back on, and go home for the evening... Because the GC was THAT slow.
2014-04-24T00:49:56Z zRecursive: nyef: how to turn off GC in sbcl ?
2014-04-24T00:51:12Z zRecursive i hope `sbcl --script` never uses GC
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2014-04-24T00:52:07Z drmeister: nyef: Hmmm, that is interesting and probably was nerve-wracking.
2014-04-24T00:53:47Z drmeister: Although they probably had an alarm go off if they were about to run out of memory.
2014-04-24T00:54:29Z p_l: drmeister: and a reset button was close by
2014-04-24T00:54:30Z nyef: zRecursive: sb-impl::*gc-inhibit*. If you touch that and it breaks, you can keep the pieces.
2014-04-24T00:55:00Z zRecursive: not exported
2014-04-24T00:55:23Z nyef: It might be, I couldn't be bothered looking up where the symbol actually is homed and if it's exported or anything.
2014-04-24T00:55:48Z zRecursive: ok
2014-04-24T00:55:53Z nyef: I just happened to need to mess with it a few times today.
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2014-04-24T00:55:58Z drmeister: nyef: What do you mean by "symbol ... is homed"?
2014-04-24T00:56:03Z PuercoPop: drmeister: http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/LinearLisp.html
2014-04-24T00:56:08Z nyef: clhs symbol-package
2014-04-24T00:56:08Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_symb_3.htm
2014-04-24T00:57:03Z nyef: I knew that it was accessed without a prefix from a file which was in-package :sb!impl. I didn't much care beyond that, as I was going to be smacking it from the REPL.
2014-04-24T00:57:36Z nyef: (and then trying to figure out why the GC had completely, thoroughly scrozzled the system.)
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2014-04-24T00:59:16Z drmeister: nyef: Oh you mean symbol-package - I thought it meant the specific source code line where it was first encountered by the reader.
2014-04-24T01:00:54Z drmeister: I thought that might have a special name like "symbol home" that I hadn't encountered yet.
2014-04-24T01:01:09Z drmeister triggers on things he doesn't recognize
2014-04-24T01:01:26Z drmeister but feels that he should
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2014-04-24T01:11:33Z ahungry: hi all, with merge-pathnames, how do I make sure the default path (returned by (merge-pathnames "") for instance) is the location of the main loaded file vs what my last pwd was?
2014-04-24T01:12:22Z ahungry: or rather, how do I change *default-pathname-defaults* to be the location of the loaded .lisp file?
2014-04-24T01:13:16Z Bike: *load-file-pathname* something?
2014-04-24T01:13:34Z Bike: *load-pathname* that is
2014-04-24T01:14:23Z ahungry: awesome, thanks Bike
2014-04-24T01:14:52Z antoszka: clhs *load-pathname*
2014-04-24T01:14:53Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_ld_pns.htm
2014-04-24T01:16:07Z antoszka: On my Lisp this variable is NIL after LOAD-ing a file.
2014-04-24T01:16:26Z antoszka: (succesfully)
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2014-04-24T01:17:49Z zRecursive: (truename *default-pathname-defaults*)
2014-04-24T01:18:06Z Bike: antoszka: it's bound during a load call, not after
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2014-04-24T01:18:27Z zRecursive: (defparameter *base-dir* (directory-namestring *load-truename*))
2014-04-24T01:20:03Z antoszka: Bike: Yeah, that's what I suspected it might be after reading the hyperspec.
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2014-04-24T01:23:25Z ahungry: yea, I want to be able to make sure I can check for files in the same dir as my loaded ql:quickload directory
2014-04-24T01:23:45Z ahungry: but keep it portable when windows users may run from C:\Some\Window\Path, so can't just use my common lisp source dir under gnu/linux
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2014-04-24T01:26:53Z White_Flame: also note that on cygwin, some files might be c:/whatever/, and others /cygdrive/c/whatever/
2014-04-24T01:27:14Z White_Flame: depending on how they get passed into your lisp
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2014-04-24T01:29:19Z antoszka: ahungry: ql-setup:*quicklisp-home* ← won't that do?
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2014-04-24T11:57:47Z groutxo: hi
2014-04-24T11:58:30Z groutxo: does lispworks has a cli on windows, or am I forced to use the IDE?
2014-04-24T11:58:51Z stassats: the free version doesn't
2014-04-24T11:59:24Z groutxo: stassats, fine, I think I'll stick with other implementation
2014-04-24T12:00:08Z groutxo: any suggestion? I just need to be able to call the repl in a terminal, maybe this https://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/novak/gclwin.html would do the job
2014-04-24T12:00:33Z stassats: it wouldn't
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2014-04-24T12:03:10Z groutxo: http://sourceforge.net/projects/clisp/ => this will
2014-04-24T12:03:28Z stassats: that's better
2014-04-24T12:03:39Z stassats: sbcl and clozure cl will work too
2014-04-24T12:05:02Z groutxo: stassats, any advantages of sbcl and closure against that one?
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2014-04-24T12:05:57Z stassats: faster, active
2014-04-24T12:06:30Z groutxo: enough
2014-04-24T12:06:34Z axion: has the threading issue on windows been addressed?
2014-04-24T12:06:49Z groutxo: now, sbcl or clzcl?
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2014-04-24T12:07:10Z groutxo: is clozure cl an implementation of clisp over clozure? or is it just clozure?
2014-04-24T12:07:26Z groutxo: hm, maybe I'm getting confused by clozure clojure
2014-04-24T12:07:40Z groutxo: yea, that was it
2014-04-24T12:07:42Z stassats: axion: if you don't stress threads too much, they do not bother
2014-04-24T12:07:51Z stassats: you are confused by clisp too
2014-04-24T12:08:06Z stassats: clisp, clozure and sbcl are three different implementations of Common Lisp
2014-04-24T12:08:28Z zz_karupa is now known as karupa
2014-04-24T12:08:33Z groutxo: stassats, yes, sorry, I meant ansi common lisp in the last clisp mention
2014-04-24T12:09:31Z groutxo: which one do you think would be better to stick with? sbcl or clozure cl?
2014-04-24T12:09:38Z axion: sbcl if you can
2014-04-24T12:10:09Z groutxo: if there is good windows support, I can
2014-04-24T12:10:19Z groutxo: I'm sadly forced to be on windows 80% of my time...
2014-04-24T12:10:20Z axion: it is what most use, and is fast and has some nice features. do explore other options though. each implementation has its own quirks and features
2014-04-24T12:10:30Z groutxo: axion, great
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2014-04-24T14:41:33Z oGMo: ahh, babel ... nice!
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2014-04-24T14:42:07Z stassats: which babel?
2014-04-24T14:42:36Z oGMo: https://github.com/cl-babel/babel
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2014-04-24T14:43:31Z stassats: my next project name will be "babel3"
2014-04-24T14:43:58Z oGMo: is there a 2?
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2014-04-24T14:44:37Z oGMo: i was initially dismayed by cl-unicode's inability to encode or decode, but this fits nicely (i need 8/16/32)
2014-04-24T14:44:59Z stassats: oGMo: that's why i asked "which"
2014-04-24T14:45:20Z oGMo: stassats: well, i'm not aware of another CL-related one
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2014-04-24T14:45:44Z stassats: it's called babel2
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2014-04-24T14:46:42Z oGMo: ah, well, it's not in quicklisp, and didn't appear in visible top google results
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2014-04-24T14:50:48Z Xach: planet lisp has a link
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2014-04-24T15:24:29Z dim is in a CL/debian packaging frenzy day, dependency after dependency, recursively
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2014-04-24T15:27:03Z Xach is prepping this month's quicklisp dist update, with more details in the announcement than usual
2014-04-24T15:27:39Z dim: ooooh
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2014-04-24T15:32:03Z Xach: i am getting foiled by a library that is taking too long to build :(
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2014-04-24T15:33:09Z oleo: repl + only that lib ?
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2014-04-24T15:33:58Z Xach: I don't understand the question.
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2014-04-24T15:34:36Z stassats: i don't think oleo understands the question either
2014-04-24T15:34:50Z oleo: sorry confused build with load....
2014-04-24T15:35:01Z oleo: and thought you were talking about some lib, not your own....
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2014-04-24T15:41:49Z Xach: exscribe compilation seems to be hanging while compiling COPY-TAG. exscribe hasn't changed since january. i'm using sbcl 1.1.17. but I can't reproduce it on the first try.
2014-04-24T15:42:10Z Xach: I suspect a supporting library's latest version is introducing some issue somehow.
2014-04-24T15:42:17Z Xach works on tracking it down
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2014-04-24T16:52:18Z Xach thinks it smells like fare-quasiquote!
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2014-04-24T17:28:15Z mordocai: Btw, since they are rather rare AFAIK, you guys might be interested in this job post from www.reddit.com/r/common_lisp http://jobview.monster.com/Lisp-Common-Lisp-Developer-All-Levels-Job-Redmond-WA-US-133224882.aspx.
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2014-04-24T17:28:34Z mordocai: I don't really know lisp well enough yet to feel comfortable applying :P
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2014-04-24T17:32:04Z Xach: Every job is a lisp job if you're brave enough!
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2014-04-24T17:33:15Z sellout: Xach: Amen!
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2014-04-24T17:34:32Z nyef: It takes a bit of doing to turn a janitorial position into a lisp job, but I'm sure there's a way.
2014-04-24T17:34:34Z j_king: mordocai: that's awesome. wish I was an american.
2014-04-24T17:34:47Z sellout: nyef: Robotics.
2014-04-24T17:34:49Z j_king: then I think about how weird that sounds.
2014-04-24T17:35:03Z nyef: sellout: As I said, "a bit of doing".
2014-04-24T17:35:10Z oleo: 401k ?
2014-04-24T17:35:20Z stassats: j_king: very weird, without "were"!
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2014-04-24T17:35:40Z oleo: pea nuts!
2014-04-24T17:35:41Z oleo: lol
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2014-04-24T17:41:22Z jasom: oh man mordocai I would apply except there is no way my wife will agree to move to Redmond
2014-04-24T17:42:46Z oleo: ?
2014-04-24T17:42:55Z oleo: does she earn more than you ?
2014-04-24T17:43:06Z dlowe: Looks cool, but there's no way I'm moving.
2014-04-24T17:43:08Z jasom: oleo: no
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2014-04-24T17:43:44Z oleo: oh man......
2014-04-24T17:43:44Z jasom: right now we are only 100km away from her parents; Redmond would be a lot more than 100km
2014-04-24T17:44:05Z dlowe: Loving relationships are not necessarily directed by who brings the most bank.
2014-04-24T17:44:38Z jasom: oleo: plus she is still in grad school
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2014-04-24T17:44:47Z oleo: ok that's an argument....
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2014-04-24T17:45:04Z Xach: In Mexico?
2014-04-24T17:45:08Z oleo: the other i don't know, it's not that she won't see her elders never again.....
2014-04-24T17:45:23Z oleo: jobs ends -> move back....
2014-04-24T17:46:25Z jaimef: http://highscalability.com/blog/2012/11/26/bigdata-using-erlang-c-and-lisp-to-fight-the-tsunami-of-mobi.html this guy is presenting tonight. I need to ask some 'smart' lisp questions.
2014-04-24T17:46:27Z jasom: she wants us close to one set of parents, so it would need a DC area job to move us from here
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2014-04-24T17:47:38Z jasom: jaimef: it's a custom lisp implementation, so who knows.  Sounds some what GOAL ish though.
2014-04-24T17:48:35Z stassats: ask him to recite banana package rules
2014-04-24T17:49:14Z jasom: jaimef: you could ask about "why lisp"; when lisp is an embedded language it's usually because one of: 1) Simple to parse 2) easy metaprogramming 3) whomever wrote it likes lisp
2014-04-24T17:49:27Z stassats: what a bummer, i thought that was fighting literal tsunamis
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2014-04-24T17:49:57Z jasom: jaimef: considering that e.g. lua exists as an embeddable scripting language writing your own lisp needs some justification
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2014-04-24T17:50:37Z oleo: a bare bones mini lisp ?
2014-04-24T17:50:39Z oleo: lol
2014-04-24T17:50:47Z stassats: so funny
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2014-04-24T17:53:08Z jasom: jaimef: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4833906 <-- looks like the answer is there and here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4833979
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2014-04-24T18:13:44Z samebchase: I'm trying to implement dolist: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142274 Can someone take a look at this attempt and give me some hints?
2014-04-24T18:14:38Z samebchase: the other impl is from here: http://www.chemie.fu-berlin.de/chemnet/use/info/cl/cl_4.html
2014-04-24T18:14:48Z stassats: you can't use LOOP
2014-04-24T18:15:59Z samebchase: oh
2014-04-24T18:16:21Z samebchase: should I use do or something?
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2014-04-24T18:16:40Z stassats: tagbody / go would work to
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2014-04-24T18:17:06Z samebchase: What is the reason why I can't use LOOP?
2014-04-24T18:17:17Z pjb: You could use loop. but it would complicate things.
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2014-04-24T18:17:32Z pjb: It's easier to do it directly with blockand tagbody.
2014-04-24T18:17:37Z stassats: samebchase: you will shadow its local function, LOOP-FINISH
2014-04-24T18:17:57Z pjb: Notice that dolist is specified to be a tagbody.
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2014-04-24T18:18:06Z stassats: samebchase: make that a local macro
2014-04-24T18:18:29Z jaimef: thanks guys/gals
2014-04-24T18:18:47Z pjb: Not shadowing loop-finish is possible, but more complex than using block and tagbody.
2014-04-24T18:19:12Z pjb: loop is a can of work when used in macro expansions.
2014-04-24T18:19:17Z pjb: s/work/worm/
2014-04-24T18:19:30Z stassats: samebchase: basically, you should never expand into LOOP where there's a body
2014-04-24T18:19:56Z samebchase: okay,
2014-04-24T18:20:14Z samebchase: I'm taking a look at tagbody
2014-04-24T18:20:28Z stassats: and expand into DO only when you also want tagbody and a nil block
2014-04-24T18:20:48Z pjb: Further, if you expand (loop for … do ,@body), and if body contains symbols like if else do when collect until finally etc, you may have quite a surprise!
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2014-04-24T18:21:27Z pjb: tagbody let you do the loop with a go, so there's little point of using another loop such as do.
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2014-04-24T18:21:43Z samebchase: Is what I'm trying to do hard?
2014-04-24T18:21:49Z stassats: no
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2014-04-24T18:22:41Z samebchase: can anyone link me to some code with tagbody which I can learn from?
2014-04-24T18:22:58Z Bike: (tagbody b (print "yes") (go b))
2014-04-24T18:23:03Z samebchase: TAGBODY is like goto?
2014-04-24T18:23:17Z dlowe: it provides a context enabling a controlled goto
2014-04-24T18:24:21Z samebchase: that looks like it will print "yes" till it is interrupted
2014-04-24T18:24:22Z samebchase: ?
2014-04-24T18:24:28Z pjb: samebchase: the secret here is that lisp is actually a low level programming language.  It even has better bit fiddling primitives than C!
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2014-04-24T18:24:43Z pjb: But we hide that very well with macros :-)
2014-04-24T18:24:58Z Bike: samebchase: yes.
2014-04-24T18:25:15Z pjb: (tagbody test (if (condition) (go end)) (do-body) (go test) end)
2014-04-24T18:25:46Z samebchase: that's neat.
2014-04-24T18:26:19Z Xach: samebchase: what is your aim in implementing your own dolist?
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2014-04-24T18:27:14Z samebchase: Xach: I want to eventually be able to write a dohashset
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2014-04-24T18:27:15Z samebchase: https://github.com/samebchase/hash-set/blob/master/hash-set.lisp
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2014-04-24T18:28:01Z stassats: just have map-hash-set, then do-hash-set is trivial
2014-04-24T18:28:19Z samebchase: I have that already
2014-04-24T18:28:54Z samebchase: https://github.com/samebchase/hash-set/blob/master/hash-set.lisp#L49 hs-map
2014-04-24T18:28:55Z pjb: Since you have it, you can use it in your dohashset macro:
2014-04-24T18:28:57Z PuercoPop: samebchase: you can macro expand loops to see uses of tag body
2014-04-24T18:29:10Z stassats: samebchase: your hs-map has confusing argument order
2014-04-24T18:29:28Z Bike: (defmacro do-hash-set ((variable set &optional ret) &body body) `(progn (map-hash-set (lambda (,variable) (block nil (tagbody ,@body))) ,set) ,ret)) or something
2014-04-24T18:29:48Z pjb: (defmacro dohashset ((v h &optional r) &body b) `(progn (hs-map ,h (lambda (,v) ,@b)) ,r))
2014-04-24T18:29:56Z stassats: Bike: block nil misplaced
2014-04-24T18:30:02Z samebchase: wow
2014-04-24T18:30:02Z Bike: darn.
2014-04-24T18:30:15Z pjb: Or yes, with block and tagbody to keep those features.
2014-04-24T18:30:33Z Bike: right, probably block nil instead of progn, except then you need to worry about the ret and bla bla bla
2014-04-24T18:30:38Z pjb: (defmacro dohashset ((v h &optional r) &body b) `(block nil (hs-map ,h (lambda (,v) (tagbody ,@b))) ,r))
2014-04-24T18:30:45Z stassats: Bike: don't need to worry about it
2014-04-24T18:31:03Z Bike: oh, i wasn't sure if (dolist (a b (return c)) ...) was supposed to return from an outer block or what
2014-04-24T18:31:17Z pjb: Good point.
2014-04-24T18:31:32Z Bike: either way that's just fiddling
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2014-04-24T18:32:08Z samebchase: stassats: ah. yes. It makes more sense to map a fn over a collection
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2014-04-24T18:32:20Z samebchase: I'll fix it
2014-04-24T18:32:31Z pjb: It's not specified, but it seems that a return there should involve an outer block.
2014-04-24T18:32:53Z stassats: for dolist, it is specified
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2014-04-24T18:33:47Z pjb: (block nil (dolist (x '(1 2 3) (return 42))) 33) --> 33 ; I would have expected 42
2014-04-24T18:34:01Z Xach: Now you know better.
2014-04-24T18:34:14Z pjb: I'm not sure.  It's perhaps implied by the scope of x, but it could expand in a (let ((x nil)) (return 42))
2014-04-24T18:34:24Z samebchase: pjb: should I use the first one or the second one?
2014-04-24T18:34:26Z pjb: Since dolist is allowed to define a scope for each iteration.
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2014-04-24T18:34:53Z pjb: samebchase: (defmacro dohashset ((v h &optional r) &body b) `(block nil (hs-map ,h (lambda (,v) (tagbody ,@b))) ,r)) ; seems to be good (use better variable names).
2014-04-24T18:36:44Z pjb: Now you can always write (block exit (dolist (x (list  1 2 3) (return-from exit 42))) 33) to get 42.
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2014-04-24T18:40:17Z stassats: `(block nil (mapcar (lambda (,var) (tagbody ,@body)) ,list) (let (,var) ,result))
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2014-04-24T18:46:24Z jasom: Unless you can list off the top of your head all of the macros that implicitly establish a block named nil, don't use (block nil)
2014-04-24T18:46:42Z stassats: they start with DO
2014-04-24T18:46:47Z jasom: stassats: LOOP
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2014-04-24T18:47:18Z stassats: L is half of D
2014-04-24T18:47:20Z samebchase: Woah. This works. Thanks everyone.
2014-04-24T18:47:25Z jasom: stassats: PROG
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2014-04-24T18:48:02Z stassats: if you squint, it looks like DO.. from afar
2014-04-24T18:48:11Z samebchase: So in future I shouldn't try to use LOOP with macros.
2014-04-24T18:49:02Z jasom: samebchase: you just need to know that several macros establish an implicit block.  If you write your own macro that establishes an implicit block named nil, name it starting with DO for othors sanity
2014-04-24T18:49:44Z Xach: and document it.
2014-04-24T18:50:01Z Bike: well, the macro is called 'dohashset' here, so that doesn't seem like a problem
2014-04-24T18:50:18Z Xach: do. do hash. do hash set.
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2014-04-24T18:51:46Z jasom thinks Xach just made Rammstein on-topic
2014-04-24T18:52:08Z samebchase: heh
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2014-04-24T18:56:05Z samebchase: I kinda get what tagbody is, but I'm not able to understand this macro I just copy-pasted
2014-04-24T18:57:01Z Bike: the tagbody and block are just for programmers. the important part is just mapping the wrapped body.
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2014-04-24T18:57:49Z H4ns: pjb: nice analysis of tls on pro@, thanks!
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2014-04-24T18:59:17Z samebchase: uuuuh.. Can someone give me some reading.
2014-04-24T19:01:14Z samebchase: I am just not able to understand this. I get tagbody and block/return-from, but how do these two fit together?
2014-04-24T19:01:41Z stassats: they are orthogonal
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2014-04-24T19:04:00Z Vivitron: samebchase: if you removed them the macro would still work unless the user tried to call RETURN or GO
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2014-04-24T19:07:24Z samebchase: maybe I'll read http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/the-special-operators.html and revisit this snippet
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2014-04-24T22:34:52Z Malice: Hello! I need a little help. I'm learning Common Lisp from book "A Gentle Introduction... " by Touretzky. I'm currently on Recursion, and I have problem with one exercise.
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2014-04-24T22:35:52Z Malice: It goes: "An arithmetic expression is either a number, or a three-element list whose first and third elements are arithmetic expressions and whose middle element is one of +, -, * or /. Write ARITH-EVAL, a function that evaluates arithmetic expressions."
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2014-04-24T22:36:02Z Malice: (Arith-eval '(2 + (3 * 4))) should return 14
2014-04-24T22:36:24Z Malice: My attempt, although faulty, is here: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142280
2014-04-24T22:36:45Z Malice: I don't want answer on how to write such function(because I can find it at the end of the book), but rather guideline on what I should change, some hints...
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2014-04-24T22:42:50Z Bicyclidine: Malice: your current implementation returns (+ 2 (* 3 4)) on that input?
2014-04-24T22:43:36Z Malice: Bicyclidine: No.
2014-04-24T22:43:45Z Bicyclidine: What does it return, then
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2014-04-24T22:44:13Z Malice: (+ 2 NIL (* 3 NIL 4))
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2014-04-24T22:45:12Z Malice: I theoretically could remove nils from this version, resulting in valid form, but that feels like hack, and not the way that was intended.
2014-04-24T22:45:47Z Bicyclidine: the reason for the nils is probably because (cddr '(2 + (3 * 4))) is ((3 + 4))
2014-04-24T22:46:01Z Bicyclidine: ((3 * 4)) i mean
2014-04-24T22:46:21Z Bicyclidine: so it'll do the cons thing, which isn't what you want.
2014-04-24T22:46:35Z Bicyclidine: secondly, you don't want to use cons anyway. (cons '+ 3 4) => (+ 3 4), not 7.
2014-04-24T22:47:29Z Malice: I know. I wanted to first make a function, that will transform an arithmetic expression into valid lisp function call(e.g. (+ 3 4))
2014-04-24T22:47:36Z Malice: And than evaluate this call.
2014-04-24T22:47:50Z Bicyclidine: okay, sure. you can start by fixing the cddr problem then.
2014-04-24T22:48:14Z Bicyclidine: (though note that when you evaluate the call you should use funcall, not eval)
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2014-04-24T22:48:47Z stassats: lotsa funcall
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2014-04-24T22:49:46Z Malice: Bicyclidine: Why funcall?
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2014-04-24T22:50:17Z Bicyclidine: or apply. eval is too general.
2014-04-24T22:50:46Z Malice: I guess I'll have to take a look at the end of the book. :/
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2014-04-24T22:51:02Z stassats: lots of applies too then
2014-04-24T22:52:12Z Malice: I managed to make it work, but only for two expressions lists, e.g. (2 + (3 * 5))
2014-04-24T22:52:19Z Malice: (2 + (3 * 5) + 2) won't work.
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2014-04-24T22:52:42Z _death: that is not a number nor a three-element-list
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2014-04-24T22:52:56Z Malice: I guess cddr has to stay than. Or am I wrong?
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2014-04-24T22:54:19Z Bicyclidine: you can look at the cddr to see if it's another arithmetic expression or just a number (or a parenthesized expression)
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2014-04-24T22:57:26Z Malice: Hmm... This problem looks tough to me. But I hope I'll solve it. Thanks anyway!
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2014-04-24T23:23:18Z jasom: Malice: two-expression lists is all the definition you pasted calls for
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2014-04-24T23:23:57Z jasom: Malice: in order to do arbitrary numbers of unparenthesized expressions you would also have to implement operator precedenec anyway
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2014-04-25T04:21:59Z leo2007: how to make a type specifier for a list of strings?
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2014-04-25T04:25:54Z Bike: can't
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2014-04-25T04:29:24Z loke: leo2007: You'd have to use the SATISFIES type notation
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2014-04-25T04:30:34Z loke: (defun stringlistp (v) (every #'stringp v)) (deftype stringlist-type () (and list (satisfies stringlistp)))
2014-04-25T04:30:48Z loke: somehting like that. I haven't used it i a while
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2014-04-25T04:32:54Z Bike: won't really help any optimizations, practically speaking
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2014-04-25T04:34:15Z loke: True
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2014-04-25T04:34:55Z loke: But it's still a type specifier that you can use with things like CHECK-TYPE
2014-04-25T04:35:11Z loke: I also like to have very strict type specifiers on my DEFCLASS
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2014-04-25T04:58:25Z leo2007: Bike and loke: thanks
2014-04-25T04:59:39Z leo2007: how often do you use check-type?
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2014-04-25T05:08:08Z pjb: Quite often.
2014-04-25T05:08:13Z pjb: along with ASSERT too.
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2014-04-25T05:11:53Z leo2007: I see. thanks.
2014-04-25T05:12:23Z loke: I usually put CHECK-TYPE on all arguments to functions that are exported
2014-04-25T05:12:36Z loke: I often do it on internal functions too, but not as rigorously
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2014-04-25T05:20:40Z leo2007: does sbcl make use of that info for optimisation?
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2014-04-25T05:20:57Z loke: leo2007: yes
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2014-04-25T05:21:25Z H4ns: leo2007: it optimizes based on check-type?
2014-04-25T05:21:40Z H4ns: that was for loke, sorry
2014-04-25T05:21:53Z loke: You can view CHECK-TYPE as similar to a DECLARE, but with the added benefit of being guaranteed that the program will raise an error if the types don't match
2014-04-25T05:22:02Z loke: H4ns: yes.
2014-04-25T05:22:16Z H4ns: loke: i did not know that it was additional to declarations, thanks
2014-04-25T05:22:49Z loke: H4ns: I don't know what the spec says about it, but SBCL most definitely makes use of it. I've tested that by disassembly :-)
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2014-04-25T05:24:29Z Bike: yeah, i think it's a consequence of the constraint propagation stuff
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2014-04-25T05:24:37Z loke: Bike: yes
2014-04-25T05:25:25Z loke: I much prefer using CHECK-TYPE to DECLARE for that very reason.
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2014-04-25T05:25:58Z Zhivago: Just don't expect it to work in anywhere apart from SBCL.
2014-04-25T05:26:36Z loke: Zhivago: Well, DECLARE can be a no-op as well, so the effectiveness of the type-declaration is still platform-dependent.
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2014-04-25T05:33:28Z loke: Zhivago: You're right though. ABCL does not do it
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2014-04-25T05:34:31Z Zhivago: Yeah -- the right thing to do would be to have both.
2014-04-25T05:34:48Z leo2007: but then it becomes tedious.
2014-04-25T05:34:56Z Zhivago: But, really, CL's type system support sucks about as hard as C's does.
2014-04-25T05:35:10Z loke: Zhivago: Well, any CL implementation could easily add an implicit DECLARE for it
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2014-04-25T06:03:21Z |3b|: just make sure you put any declare after the check-type, since it is allowed to assume declarations are correct, and compile away a check-type inside the scope of the declaration
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2014-04-25T06:04:18Z |3b|: (presumably using LOCALLY or something, since you can't just move the DECLARE form around)
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2014-04-25T06:04:40Z Zhivago: And then you can macrotize it.
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2014-04-25T06:06:24Z |3b|: yeah, probably could make something like locally that adds check-type before the declarations
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2014-04-25T06:07:32Z |3b|: but also keep in mind that some non-type declarations shouldn't be moved to locally (SPECIAL in particular)
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2014-04-25T06:08:06Z |3b| can't decide if moving a type declaration to LOCALLY could be expected to make any difference or not
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2014-04-25T06:32:09Z leo2007: In general can I assume the destructive version (nreverse vs reverse etc.) is faster?
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2014-04-25T06:36:47Z H4ns: leo2007: don't assume, measure
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2014-04-25T06:55:16Z loke: leo2007: Given the fact that the destructive versions doesn't _require_ destruction, you can make a fairly reasonable assumption that it won't be slower (by much)
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2014-04-25T06:58:37Z zRecursive: In #'nreverse, what does "n" stand for ?
2014-04-25T06:58:59Z Bike: destructive
2014-04-25T06:59:38Z zRecursive: there is no "n" in word destructive ?
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2014-04-25T07:01:20Z zRecursive: I know #'nreverse is destructive version, but why does it use letter "n" ?
2014-04-25T07:01:41Z |3b|: "non-consing" or something like that i think
2014-04-25T07:02:26Z loke: non-non-destructive? :-)
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2014-04-25T07:05:25Z splittist: And the 'f' in setf stands for function.
2014-04-25T07:06:10Z zRecursive: sometimes "n" seems not helpful for people to rememeber it is destructive. #'reverse! is better ?
2014-04-25T07:06:19Z zRecursive: splittist: "f" is field
2014-04-25T07:07:07Z |3b|: and 'car' isn't very helpful name either, too late now though
2014-04-25T07:07:33Z |3b|: same with random letters missing from names to make then < 6 characters long
2014-04-25T07:07:42Z zRecursive: (defalias nreverse reverse!)  :)
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2014-04-25T07:08:03Z Bike: n would be better if it was consistent, so it would be just as meaningless as foo!, but there's delete and probably others
2014-04-25T07:08:29Z leo2007: I have a version of nreverse implemented in elisp and it is 60 times slower the non-destructive version. http://bpaste.net/show/232994
2014-04-25T07:08:44Z |3b|: nreverse isn't exactly "destructive" though, it isn't specified to reverse in place, it is just allowed to reuse the input conses if it wants to... reverse! sounds more like an in-place reverse
2014-04-25T07:08:45Z leo2007: any idea what is wrong?
2014-04-25T07:09:41Z |3b|: leo2007: "reverse is a built-in function in `C source code'." ?
2014-04-25T07:09:58Z zRecursive: |3b|: so nreverse mneans "Not same as reverse" ?
2014-04-25T07:10:10Z |3b|: zRecursive: it means non-consing reverse
2014-04-25T07:10:19Z Zhivago: That version of nreverse really sucks. :)
2014-04-25T07:10:50Z |3b|: though you can't rely on it not consing, since it could just call REVERSE and be conforming
2014-04-25T07:10:50Z leo2007: |3b|: the builtin one is only for lists, I have this in elisp: http://bpaste.net/show/233000
2014-04-25T07:11:29Z Zhivago: Just pop the links and push into a new result, stack-wise.
2014-04-25T07:11:45Z leo2007: I tried these two implementations on a string from a big buffer.
2014-04-25T07:12:05Z leo2007: cl-reverse took 0.2s cl-nreverse took 12s
2014-04-25T07:12:30Z Zhivago: That's because your cl-nreverse is implemented in an incredibly stupid fashion.
2014-04-25T07:13:08Z leo2007: Zhivago: how best to implement it?
2014-04-25T07:14:24Z Zhivago: First -- are you testing this on a vector or on a list?
2014-04-25T07:14:31Z leo2007: vector
2014-04-25T07:14:34Z leo2007: a string
2014-04-25T07:15:15Z Zhivago: Then I'd look at the macro-expansion to see what cl-rotatef is doing.
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2014-04-25T07:17:47Z leo2007: the expansion looks fine to me. it has two aref's and two aset's.
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2014-04-25T07:21:14Z splittist: zRecursive: when Peter Deutsch first proposed the facility, he called it setfq because "it quotes the function and evaluates everything else". e.g. (lambda (x y) (setfq (car x) y) for rplaca. It was abbreviated to setf in Lisp Machine Lisp.
2014-04-25T07:22:04Z Zhivago: Well, in that case, I'm not sure -- try commenting out the cl-rotatef and see what the speed is like then.
2014-04-25T07:22:50Z leo2007: Zhivago: is there a better way to reverse a vector? not using the builtin functions of course.
2014-04-25T07:25:15Z Zhivago: Well, first determine if that's the problem.
2014-04-25T07:26:57Z leo2007: Zhivago: it seems all the time is spent doing (- l i)
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2014-04-25T07:27:26Z Zhivago: Well, then you can walk an index down incrementally.
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2014-04-25T07:27:40Z Zhivago: But why is that so expensive?
2014-04-25T07:27:49Z Zhivago: Do those have weird classes?
2014-04-25T07:28:04Z leo2007: no, - is built in function in elisp
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2014-04-25T07:28:17Z leo2007: I guess I can use two indexes.
2014-04-25T07:28:24Z Zhivago: Yeah, so look at the classes of the arguments.
2014-04-25T07:28:28Z Bike: maybe it handles floats and stuff in addition to fixnums, though.
2014-04-25T07:28:37Z Zhivago: Maybe they have weird classes and the code is expensive for them.
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2014-04-25T07:33:55Z leo2007: by using two indexes the it took 0.009s on the same string.
2014-04-25T07:34:18Z Bike: that's.... sure something.
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2014-04-25T07:35:49Z leo2007: thanks for the hints!
2014-04-25T07:36:05Z leo2007: I never realised it was this (- l i) thing.
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2014-04-25T07:52:31Z leo2007: My implementation was wrong. It turns out it is slow only on strings if I convert string to vector and reverse it is very fast.
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2014-04-25T10:31:43Z H4ns: is it possible to specify the dynamic-space-size for an application written with buildapp on the command line?  i.e. can i somehow pass sbcl runtime flags when running the executable?
2014-04-25T10:33:56Z dim: H4ns: I didn't find how to do that, I'm interested if you find the way
2014-04-25T10:34:23Z H4ns: https://github.com/xach/buildapp/issues/5 seems to say that it was "fixed", but Error: Undefined option --dynamic-space-size
2014-04-25T10:34:42Z dim: the option is available at build time
2014-04-25T10:34:51Z dim: I don't know about making it available at run time
2014-04-25T10:34:54Z H4ns: of course.  i would like to avoid rebuilding.
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2014-04-25T10:35:19Z dim: indeed, and the #5 looks like it's about that
2014-04-25T10:35:19Z H4ns: in particular as my executable has many different operation modes, some of them requiring excessive memory.
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2014-04-25T10:35:37Z dim: maybe it's down to how you parse command line arguments?
2014-04-25T10:36:01Z dim: how do you make it so that some of them are given to the SBCL startup and others to your own code, once SBCL has reached to your bits?
2014-04-25T10:36:51Z H4ns: once the lisp runtime is running, all bets are off
2014-04-25T10:37:06Z H4ns: that is, i cannot give the runtime options back once i'm running in my command line parser.
2014-04-25T10:37:15Z dim: exactly
2014-04-25T10:37:42Z dim: so where is the code that will handle the SBCL startup command line arguments? how do you "talk" to it at the right time?
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2014-04-25T11:16:13Z H4ns just learned that before bumping the dynamic-space-size from 25GB to something more in the lines of 40GB, the hardware needs to be upgraded.
2014-04-25T11:16:23Z H4ns: i'm glad that all this is virtualized :)
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2014-04-25T11:20:19Z p_l: H4ns: I actually had once considered making dynamic-space be allocated from mmap()ed file on *very* fast storage
2014-04-25T11:20:30Z p_l: I just don't have big enough dataset to make it worthwhile :)
2014-04-25T11:20:52Z H4ns: very fast storage is always one copy operation slower than ram
2014-04-25T11:20:55Z H4ns: :)
2014-04-25T11:21:05Z p_l had talked with this one company selling VPSes with 4.2GiB/s low-latency IO ;)
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2014-04-25T11:21:30Z p_l: H4ns: yes, but the idea was that the "hottest" data would be in RAM, while still keeping single-address-space nature for *all* data
2014-04-25T11:23:02Z p_l: could be further managed with apropriate calls to flush or swapin specific pages
2014-04-25T11:23:57Z gofk: What is the proper way to get a keyword symbol by name? Like (read-from-string (format nil ":~A" name))
2014-04-25T11:24:37Z H4ns: (find-symbol "FOO" :keyword)
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2014-04-25T11:27:28Z gofk: Oh... you actually have to intern stuff in keyword, for some reason I thought everything was automatically interned or something
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2014-04-25T11:28:39Z H4ns: gofk: it is the reader who interns things for you automatically
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2014-04-25T11:29:05Z H4ns: gofk: you can certainly use (intern "FOO" :keyword) if you want to create symbols that don't exist.
2014-04-25T11:29:05Z gofk: Yeah I just realised, I thought the package itself was doing some magic
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2014-04-25T11:29:51Z gofk: it's easy to forget whihc layer stuff is happening in sometimes
2014-04-25T11:30:20Z gofk: Implementing a lisp in lisp is a good exercise for this, but I haven't done it for a while
2014-04-25T11:30:21Z dim: mmap is a way to avoid GC and control memory yourself, too, I think
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2014-04-25T11:35:59Z p_l: dim: mmap() in itself is just a bit clunky direct interface to OS' virtual memory system
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2014-04-25T11:36:38Z dim: yeah in CL terms it's an escape from the GC
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2014-04-25T11:48:31Z Xach: H4ns: the issue talks about the generated binaries but the commit refers only to buildapp itself.
2014-04-25T11:48:39Z Xach: H4ns: so the issue resolution is a mistake
2014-04-25T11:49:06Z H4ns: Xach: ah, ok.  do you know of a workaround?
2014-04-25T11:49:32Z Xach: H4ns: I don't know offhand. I can't think of a trivial one. I'd have to look at the code.
2014-04-25T11:49:58Z H4ns: Xach: don't worry.  i'll have to have the hardware be upgraded anyway, so i'll have time to rebuild with more dynamic space.
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2014-04-25T11:54:03Z Xach: I can say that in general I wanted to pass all command-line options into user application control
2014-04-25T11:54:31Z Xach: I'll have to see what is possible for processing runtime options.
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2014-04-25T11:59:13Z samebchase: I was able to solve http://www.problemotd.com/problem/word-ladder/ in Lisp: https://github.com/samebchase/word-ladder/blob/master/word-ladder.lisp . It was fun. Output graph image is here: http://i.imgur.com/5TxGXZt.png
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2014-04-25T11:59:59Z samebchase: Loading 100k words from the dictionary and their 1-neighbours into the graph took about 50 seconds.
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2014-04-25T12:13:01Z Xach: samebchase: neat. what did you use to draw the circles, lines, and text?
2014-04-25T12:13:23Z Xach: Darn, common-lisp.net's gitweb is timing out.
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2014-04-25T12:20:24Z dim: Xach: I have a Quicklisp question that I didn't see answered already in the FAQ, about "release policy" --- do you include HEAD/TIP/master's of every project or the latest stable tag/release/tarball when such do exists?
2014-04-25T12:20:44Z dim: context: quicklisp -> debian package, automated, maybe
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2014-04-25T12:21:01Z samebchase: Xach: graph-json has a to-html fn
2014-04-25T12:21:23Z samebchase: d3.js under the hood
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2014-04-25T12:22:05Z samebchase: I think graph-json could be hacked a bit more to do lots of cool things
2014-04-25T12:25:59Z Xach: dim: It depends on the project. If people ask me to use a release, I use a release, whether that's a tarball, tag, branch, or whatever.
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2014-04-25T12:26:40Z dim: ok
2014-04-25T12:26:48Z dim: I'm doing about the same in the debian packages I'm building now
2014-04-25T12:27:29Z samebchase: https://github.com/eschulte is wrting some nice stuff.
2014-04-25T12:27:32Z dim: if the project's website offers a stable realease I use that, baring that I use current date as the release number and use current VCS checkout
2014-04-25T12:28:55Z dim: I wonder what a Quicklisp -> debian package automation would look like, and what parts it would automate really (grabbing the current release to update the package certainly isn't that much of a problem)
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2014-04-25T12:33:09Z Xach: dim: it's my hope that quicklisp results in useful metadata
2014-04-25T12:33:16Z Xach: whether or not you use quicklisp code to process it
2014-04-25T12:34:00Z dim: the problem with the debian packaging is that the metadata is supposed to be manually handled and processed
2014-04-25T12:34:10Z dim: well maybe I need to learn new tricks too
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2014-04-25T12:34:50Z dim: see http://pgsql.tapoueh.org/cl-debian/drakma-1.3.8/debian/control for an example of the needed metadata for a project
2014-04-25T12:35:11Z dim: I had to manually scrap all that from the main website etc
2014-04-25T12:35:24Z dim: one of the most problematic metadata I need is debian/copyright
2014-04-25T12:35:54Z Xach: dim: system files provide :description and :long-description but there is a lot of variation in style and content.
2014-04-25T12:35:54Z dim: where some QL libs will only mention "it's released under an MIT-style licence" without providing anything else, or worse, will just say "hey, it's public domain"
2014-04-25T12:36:08Z Xach: and sometimes they don't provide that at all, inconsistent or not
2014-04-25T12:36:25Z dim: normally the control file is a one-off editing, then you just update the code and debuild and off you go
2014-04-25T12:36:49Z dim: I think you can guess from http://pgsql.tapoueh.org/cl-debian/ that I already had to deal with pretty inconsistent data myself ;-)
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2014-04-25T12:54:14Z dim: Xach: ok I'm trying to figure out how to make a dh-make-cl-lib which would talk to Quicklisp and generate the whole debian/ packaging
2014-04-25T12:54:27Z dim: is there docs on the API to talk to Quicklisp and get metadata?
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2014-04-25T13:23:52Z Xach: dim: not exactly. docstrings are hopefully decent. it's in dist.lisp.
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2014-04-25T13:28:53Z dim: reading
2014-04-25T13:30:23Z dim: basically I want to write code that given a system's name fetches and extract the sources in the current local directory, then mkdir debian/ and creates the control file and etc from templates, quicklisp metadata and parsing the asd
2014-04-25T13:30:50Z dim: I guess parsing the asd is better done using ASDF as a lib directly, do you have code in Quicklisp already that parses and uses an asd file?
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2014-04-25T13:31:27Z Xach: For the most part I have not been successful in extracting all the info I need from an ASDF system object.
2014-04-25T13:31:36Z Xach: I often look at the form itself instead.
2014-04-25T13:32:02Z dim: good, that means you have code to read-in that form and use the plist directly I guess
2014-04-25T13:33:52Z Xach: Sort of. There are issues with things like package references in system files, like cffi-grovel.
2014-04-25T13:34:11Z Xach: It could be worth another crack at asking on asdf-devel if you have a specific need.
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2014-04-25T13:36:03Z dim: well I'm still wondering if dh-make-cl-lib would be more work than finishing my current packaging manually, after all I did 21 packages yesterday already
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2014-04-25T13:48:27Z Xach: H4ns: how's the planet lisp tweetmachine doing?
2014-04-25T13:49:13Z H4ns: *blush*
2014-04-25T13:49:53Z H4ns: Xach: i'll fix it on the weekend, promised.
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2014-04-25T17:13:41Z Xach is starting to feel a bit glum about github monoculture
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2014-04-25T17:14:43Z LiamH: Xach: what specifically causes glumness?
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2014-04-25T17:16:27Z whartung may someday even have a github account.
2014-04-25T17:16:56Z whartung: house is github a mono culture with source forge and -- uh -- whatever Atlassians things is >.<
2014-04-25T17:17:17Z JuanDaugherty .oO( xach no dat? )
2014-04-25T17:17:22Z dlowe: I'd be more glum if it weren't so awesome
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2014-04-25T17:17:48Z dlowe: I am, in fact, a glum about their unfortunate scandal incident.
2014-04-25T17:17:54Z dlowe: * a bit glum
2014-04-25T17:18:08Z nyef: ... scandal incident?
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2014-04-25T17:18:36Z JuanDaugherty: "Atlassian" it's as in "Shrugged", u know right?
2014-04-25T17:18:37Z dlowe: It's sordid, unpleasant, and unfulfilling to read about.
2014-04-25T17:18:51Z nyef: Ah.
2014-04-25T17:19:18Z dlowe: No unbiased parties exist. Pick your side.
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2014-04-25T17:25:10Z Xach: LiamH: Nothing specific. Mostly the despair of switching sometime in the future. They're dominant because they're easy and offer a lot, but now there's a lot of furniture on the rug if it's ever yanked out from under.
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2014-04-25T17:26:41Z LiamH: Xach: I see, indeed a concern.
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2014-04-25T17:27:21Z JuanDaugherty: i only ever used their stuff that I could load on my own servers
2014-04-25T17:27:41Z splittist:  Perhaps time for gitflip, from WigFlip Global Enterprises Inc: the simple github backup/migration tool...
2014-04-25T17:27:44Z JuanDaugherty: without further entanglement
2014-04-25T17:28:03Z JuanDaugherty: and fisheye works with current git fine
2014-04-25T17:28:18Z LiamH: Then we would become concerned about rug-yanking from WFGE.
2014-04-25T17:28:18Z JuanDaugherty: for free unlike github private repos
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2014-04-25T17:28:41Z splittist: LiamH: but we know where Xach lives...
2014-04-25T17:28:42Z Xach: Oh, I would never do that. I am a spirit of pure light and goodness.
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2014-04-25T17:29:08Z dlowe: Xach: the nice part about distributed source control is that if github ever disappears, the source tree is still completely intact at every contributor
2014-04-25T17:29:22Z JuanDaugherty: Lo, dispeller of the glum!
2014-04-25T17:29:35Z Xach: dlowe: yeah, if that was all github did, it would be good news. but they value-add like crazy.
2014-04-25T17:29:53Z dlowe: yeah, it's real value, though
2014-04-25T17:30:11Z splittist: damned value, getting in the way of consumer decisions
2014-04-25T17:30:28Z Xach: yes, a very great value. which is why it's popular as can be.
2014-04-25T17:30:30Z splittist: Although it makes me think the migration tool should be called setf
2014-04-25T17:30:36Z dlowe: All you have to do is make a competitor
2014-04-25T17:30:40Z splittist: Or getf, of course.
2014-04-25T17:30:49Z IanF: I've transferred repos from sourceforge, to google code, then on to github.  It'd only be a minor pain if github disappeared
2014-04-25T17:30:54Z LiamH: gitorious?
2014-04-25T17:31:23Z Xach: IanF: It would be a minor pain for me, multiplied by 900 or so.
2014-04-25T17:31:39Z IanF: Wow, you have 900 repos?
2014-04-25T17:31:41Z LiamH: repos are one thing, what about bug tracking, mailing lists, etc.?
2014-04-25T17:31:42Z Xach: let's just call it a kilomillipain
2014-04-25T17:32:03Z jsnell_: bug trackers benefit from being purged every now and then anyway
2014-04-25T17:32:06Z Xach: wikis, websites, forks, pull requests, etc, etc
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2014-04-25T17:32:36Z Xach: IanF: i track hundreds of repos and do a lot of work with github's add-on services.
2014-04-25T17:32:41Z dlowe: There was an interesting system I ran across that implemented bug tracking via a git branch
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2014-04-25T17:33:12Z Xach: Yes, sorry to make it seem apropos of nothing, but I'm prepping the latest quicklisp dist update announcement, and every new project is on github.
2014-04-25T17:33:19Z Xach: Very similar last month, and the month before, and before...
2014-04-25T17:33:25Z dlowe: No, it's a valid concern.
2014-04-25T17:33:35Z dlowe: Monocultures aren't a good ecosystem
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2014-04-25T17:33:54Z LiamH: My projects are still on repo.or.cz. You're welcome.
2014-04-25T17:34:41Z splittist: But github disappearing would be like google dropping reader support, or walking away from wave.
2014-04-25T17:34:48Z Xach: distributed, non-deterministic availability source control
2014-04-25T17:34:59Z Xach: splittist: more like the former than the latter
2014-04-25T17:35:22Z splittist: What particular added-value services would you miss most?
2014-04-25T17:36:10Z Xach: splittist: issue tracking would be #1, i think. not necessarily for my own stuff. it's very nice to know, for most projects, how to let someone know there's a bug, and get emails for status updates.
2014-04-25T17:36:42Z Xach: their system is pretty painless for my purposes. less painful than launchpad's system and others i've used.
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2014-04-25T17:37:45Z JuanDaugherty: and they'd no doubt provide support for free to try to replace cliki or the like
2014-04-25T17:38:32Z JuanDaugherty: move the whole domain into they're brand
2014-04-25T17:38:37Z JuanDaugherty: *their
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2014-04-25T17:40:00Z Xach: JuanDaugherty: who?
2014-04-25T17:40:19Z JuanDaugherty: github
2014-04-25T17:40:27Z splittist: One could always create a quickbug service as a thin wrapper around github, able to pivot to whatever(s) came next. A SMOP and 'community' management...
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2014-04-25T17:41:51Z Xach: splittist: I'd like to make a first cut at that as a redirect service. Could be a few solid days of work, and payoff could be pretty decent.
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2014-04-25T17:43:21Z splittist: Xach: you have my permission (:
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2014-04-25T17:43:42Z dlowe: then the pivot becomes the monoculture!
2014-04-25T17:44:11Z jasom: splittist: AFAICT google walking away from wave is the best thing that could have happened to it.
2014-04-25T17:44:15Z splittist: We can clone Xach!
2014-04-25T17:45:03Z jasom: To move away from the quicklisp monoculture, I'm going to make a quicklisp distribution.  Any suggestions for names?
2014-04-25T17:45:24Z Xach: laserlambda
2014-04-25T17:45:33Z splittist: portable standard rapid lisp
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2014-04-25T17:45:43Z Xach: hygiene-o-rama
2014-04-25T17:45:50Z jasom: Common Quicklisp: The Distribution
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2014-04-25T17:46:00Z Krystof: tongue-twister
2014-04-25T17:46:22Z Xach: My hope with the dist stuff is that it *will* be possible to get away from the quicklisp monoculture. Let a thousand dists bloom.
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2014-04-25T17:46:40Z splittist: The Little Red Dist!
2014-04-25T17:46:40Z Xach has a lot of prose to write to help it along
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2014-04-25T17:46:51Z jasom: Xach: I can see a day where each delivered application requires a different QL dist
2014-04-25T17:46:58Z p_l: splittist: that could!
2014-04-25T17:47:14Z jasom: The maxima dist, the (some other application people actually use) dist
2014-04-25T17:47:25Z LiamH: Xach: do you know of any non-quicklisp quicklisp dists? (!) Public or private.
2014-04-25T17:48:16Z jasom: You know, ASDF is getting flexible enough, you might be able to write an entire linux distribution as a quicklisp dist...
2014-04-25T17:48:20Z JuanDaugherty: NonMono
2014-04-25T17:48:37Z jasom: All packages are installed from the REPL
2014-04-25T17:48:38Z Xach: LiamH: yes, a few. peter seibel set one up.
2014-04-25T17:49:07Z splittist: Now we need a centralised quickdists registry...
2014-04-25T17:49:23Z Xach: jasom: i don't know if i'd *like* to see that happen, but i could see that too.
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2014-04-25T17:50:33Z jasom: Xach: since there really isn't a way (that I know of) to tell ASDF that you depend on exactly version X.Y.Z of a system, I don't see a way around it.
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2014-04-25T17:51:25Z jasom: Ruby and Python both have ways of setting up their own sub-environments; those typically will all install from the same repository, but they can pull in specific versions of everything from into each environment
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2014-04-25T17:51:50Z nyef: It's not even a question of an exact version dependency. Every time I've moved to a new quicklisp dist, hunchentoot has changed incompatibly in one way or another.
2014-04-25T17:51:55Z Xach: jasom: yes, there is.
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2014-04-25T17:52:18Z jasom: Xach: can dists have multiple versions of the same system as well then?
2014-04-25T17:52:27Z jasom: In that case it wouldn't be strictly necessary
2014-04-25T17:52:30Z Xach: nyef: that's one of the reasons dists are versioned all together.
2014-04-25T17:52:33Z Xach: jasom: no.
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2014-04-25T17:53:05Z dlowe: If people were disciplined about APIs and versioning, you could run dist branches
2014-04-25T17:53:08Z nyef: Yeah, I figured as much.
2014-04-25T17:53:08Z jasom: nyef: that means if you deliver application X that depends on hunchentoot, you need to have an exact version dependency on hunchentoot
2014-04-25T17:53:26Z Xach: so you can have the hunchentoot your application needs, and the world as it was that supported that hunchentoot.
2014-04-25T17:53:43Z nyef: jasom: No I don't. I have a dependency on a RANGE of hunchentoot versions, as long as they all provide the same APIs that I use.
2014-04-25T17:53:45Z dlowe: So on quicklisp version 25, the hunchentoot api will be the same and receive updates
2014-04-25T17:54:04Z Xach: it's been interesting to see how private projects then take that idea and then fork the quicklisp-provided version-history-free snapshots from a few years ago...
2014-04-25T17:55:18Z Xach: I'd like to provide enough upstream info where people could actually fork the real thing from the point of quicklisp's snapshot. Someday.
2014-04-25T17:55:21Z jasom: Xach: if the QL dists rewrote the .asd files to depend on specific tested combinations (i.e. the latest QL dist forced the versions to be the same as in QL) then you could have multiple versions in QL at the same time potentially
2014-04-25T17:56:03Z jasom: The downside is that it's overagressive and you can prevent bugfixes from being installed
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2014-04-25T17:56:40Z jasom: It becomes just like DLLs vs static linking; if you update the DLL you can fix bugs in all your applications at the same time, but you can also introduce bugs into all your applications at the same time
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2014-04-25T17:58:17Z nyef: I once started working out a theory and an approach to maintaining backwards-compatible interfaces to the point of knowing when you were breaking compatibility between your new version and fasls compiled from your old version.
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2014-04-25T17:59:22Z Xach: I've been wondering to what degree you can query the system for (superficial) API differences: new or removed external symbols, modified lambda lists, etc.
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2014-04-25T17:59:39Z Xach: I know it can be done, but would it be useful and meaningful.
2014-04-25T18:00:10Z Xach: I've also been wondering how to make a nice query langauge for the database that is your lisp implementation.
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2014-04-25T18:01:01Z Xach: give me all functions named by an external symbol with "SIZE" in the name that are in a package that doesn't have "internal" in its package docstring...
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2014-04-25T18:02:11Z Xach adds detail to http://blog.quicklisp.org/
2014-04-25T18:04:03Z pjb: Xach: no glum here: I use git.informatimago.com and gitorious.org :-)
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2014-04-25T18:04:38Z splittist goes to gate as directed
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2014-04-25T18:06:09Z dlowe: pjb: then the glum is that you're not adding new projects to quicklisp
2014-04-25T18:06:42Z Xach: pjb has one megaproject that covers everything
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2014-04-25T18:13:19Z jasom: Time for me to write a github clone in common-lisp
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2014-04-25T18:13:36Z jasom: There's already one in ruby and one in go, so why not?
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2014-04-25T18:16:12Z slyrus wishes pjb would split up his megaproject
2014-04-25T18:17:50Z Krystof: Xach: at the emacs conference last year, johnw demoed "apropos-value" in emacs
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2014-04-25T18:18:00Z Krystof: that was one of two "ooo" moments for me
2014-04-25T18:18:06Z Krystof: (the other being ace-jump-mode)
2014-04-25T18:18:32Z dlowe: heh. apropos-value is pretty neat.
2014-04-25T18:20:01Z jasom: Krystof: that's the EasyMotion clone, right?
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2014-04-25T18:28:59Z Krystof: jasom: yes, probably
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2014-04-25T18:33:01Z pjb: slyrus: there are 57 ASD systems in my projects.  You want me to split it down to the function or to the expression?
2014-04-25T18:33:34Z pjb: I'm providing ONE ASD system that loads most of them in a single command. isn't that helpful?
2014-04-25T18:33:48Z slyrus: I wish I could just quickload the things that I need. I don't really want all 57 asds.
2014-04-25T18:33:55Z pjb: You can.
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2014-04-25T18:34:36Z jasom: slyrus: (ql:system-apropos "informatimago" gives me about 40 results)
2014-04-25T18:34:38Z pjb: If you ql:quickload :com.informatimago.common-lisp.lisp-reader you only get it (and its dependencies).
2014-04-25T18:34:50Z jasom: sadly I can't count them since it returns no value
2014-04-25T18:35:06Z pjb: jasom: (ql:quickload :com.informatimago.common-lisp) first.
2014-04-25T18:35:07Z slyrus: by get you mean asdf:load-system, not download, I presume
2014-04-25T18:35:35Z pjb: (ql:quickload :com.informatimago.common-lisp.lisp-reader)
2014-04-25T18:35:39Z pjb: is what I wrote.
2014-04-25T18:36:31Z slyrus: yes, and my point is that that downloads all of com.informatimago.
2014-04-25T18:36:43Z pjb: So what?
2014-04-25T18:36:45Z slyrus: so I've "got" all of it
2014-04-25T18:37:13Z pjb: I think it is important to download everything.
2014-04-25T18:37:14Z jasom: all 2.3MB
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2014-04-25T18:37:38Z pjb: It would be even important enough to _load_ everything (I've built a couple of image with all libraries loaded in).
2014-04-25T18:37:59Z pjb: The reason is that it would avoid code duplication, thanks to auto-completion and apropos.
2014-04-25T18:38:26Z jasom: slyrus: are you complaining that you had to download 2.3MB to install something?
2014-04-25T18:38:58Z slyrus: jasom: I'm complaining that my quicklisp dist is cluttered with stuff like pjb's invoice generation code.
2014-04-25T18:39:07Z pjb: This is AGPL3 code, you can take it, and split it into 57 repositories if you like.  You would have to change the com.informatimago package prefix, but remember it's AGPL3 code.
2014-04-25T18:39:39Z pjb: Which contains a nice devise arithmetic and reader macro system.
2014-04-25T18:39:50Z pjb: But indeed it's not factored out yet.
2014-04-25T18:40:14Z slyrus: this is sort of like arguing if a particular band is "good" or not. Lots of different styles and folks are free to choose their own. Personally, I like the smaller, loosely-knit style. we can agree to disagree.
2014-04-25T18:40:25Z slyrus: sorry I brought it up.
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2014-04-25T18:40:48Z jasom: slyrus: not trying to argue, was just trying to figure out what was bad about it from your perspective
2014-04-25T18:41:10Z pjb: I wouldn't mind if there was an automatic way to split up repositories accordingly to some asd file.
2014-04-25T18:41:15Z jasom: And it's the fact that there is now code in ~/quicklisp that you don't care about and will never use (if I understand you correctly)
2014-04-25T18:41:36Z pjb: (ql:make-pruned-distribution :one-small-asd-system)
2014-04-25T18:41:39Z pjb: ;-)
2014-04-25T18:42:22Z pjb: jasom: yes, but then, for libraries, you'd have to split it down to the function!
2014-04-25T18:42:31Z pjb: What you want is a tree shaker.
2014-04-25T18:43:32Z jasom: pjb: you could make subtree branches, I suppose
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2014-04-25T18:44:24Z slyrus: no, I want things like "find ~/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp -type f -name \*.lisp -print0 | xargs -0 grep defpackage" to have to search  just the stuff I care about enough to have quickloaded
2014-04-25T18:44:25Z jasom: pjb: I think it's a matter of scale
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2014-04-25T18:44:51Z slyrus: 296/696 of the defpackage forms in my quicklisp dist are pjb's.
2014-04-25T18:45:29Z pjb: Of course, since 1- I wrote a lot of code over 20 years. 2- a lot of libraries I have are one-package-per-file.
2014-04-25T18:45:30Z jasom: well pjb likes the oppf style so that makes some sense
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2014-04-25T18:46:11Z pjb: So if you want to be stop distributing all this code, and release only the single one-function library you need, perhaps others wouldn't gree…
2014-04-25T18:46:15Z pjb: +a
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2014-04-25T18:46:26Z pjb: s/be/me/
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2014-04-25T18:50:06Z jasom: since pjb uses directories so rigoursly to split parts of it out, it would be trivial to take a list of systems and convert it to a list of subtrees, so you could probably write a shell script to make a mirror with them each in a separate repo
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2014-04-25T18:54:25Z pjb: There's also a simple git command to do that.
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2014-04-25T18:54:58Z jasom: simpler than git-subtree?
2014-04-25T18:55:53Z pjb: git filter-branch --prune-empty --subdirectory-filter $subdirectory $branch
2014-04-25T18:56:33Z jasom: git subtree split --prefix=$subdirectory -b $branch
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2014-04-25T19:00:16Z ltbarcly: is there a common idiomatic way to concatenate a list of arrays?  using apply?
2014-04-25T19:00:35Z jasom: ltbarcly: that's how I would do it
2014-04-25T19:01:01Z pjb:  (apply (function concatenate) 'vector list-of-vectors)
2014-04-25T19:01:17Z pjb: You can't concatenate arrays in general.
2014-04-25T19:01:40Z pjb: If you had a 3x4x5 array and a  7x11 array, what would their concatenation be?
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2014-04-25T19:02:58Z ltbarcly: oh, I mean 1 dimensional simple-array
2014-04-25T19:03:06Z pjb: you mean vector.
2014-04-25T19:03:12Z pjb: Why limit yourself to simple-vectors?
2014-04-25T19:03:21Z ltbarcly: maybe I'm confused on that point
2014-04-25T19:03:27Z pjb: clhs vector
2014-04-25T19:03:27Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_vector.htm
2014-04-25T19:03:30Z pjb: clhs array
2014-04-25T19:03:30Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_array.htm
2014-04-25T19:04:12Z jasom: pjb: 1 dimensional simple-arrays include more than simple-vectors
2014-04-25T19:04:17Z ltbarcly: so I think what let me wrong was (type-of "somestring") -> (SIMPLE-ARRAY CHARACTER (length))
2014-04-25T19:04:37Z jasom: simple-arrays can have any element type, simple-vectors must have element-type t
2014-04-25T19:04:53Z pjb: Ah, you're right. simple-array is a superclass of vector.
2014-04-25T19:04:57Z ltbarcly: so do simple vectors work by storing pointers?
2014-04-25T19:05:07Z pjb: Oops, no I'm confused.
2014-04-25T19:05:26Z jasom: (simple-array characer (5)) is not a simple-vector
2014-04-25T19:05:30Z ltbarcly: I thought a vector was an array with a fill pointer
2014-04-25T19:05:37Z jasom: ltbarcly: you are confused
2014-04-25T19:05:44Z jasom: ltbarcly: a vector is any 1 dimensional array
2014-04-25T19:05:45Z ltbarcly: no doubt :)
2014-04-25T19:06:03Z ltbarcly: ok, so a simple-vector is sans-fill-pointer, whereas a regular vector has a fill pointer?
2014-04-25T19:06:06Z jasom: a simple-vector is a simple-array with element-type t
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2014-04-25T19:06:26Z jasom: a simple-array has no fill-pointer and is not expressly adjustable
2014-04-25T19:06:29Z ltbarcly: so here's what I'm trying to do:  I have an algorithm that can either operate on an array of integers or an array of characters
2014-04-25T19:06:39Z pjb: simple-vector ∪ simple-string ∪ simple-bit-vector ⊂ simple-array
2014-04-25T19:06:55Z pjb: arrays or vectors?
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2014-04-25T19:07:12Z ltbarcly: uhg, vectors sorry
2014-04-25T19:07:38Z ltbarcly: I believe I need to specify the type to avoid pointer dereferencing
2014-04-25T19:07:57Z pjb: Also, you can use a more precise type in: (apply (function concatenate) 'string list-of-strings)   (apply (function concatenate) '(simple-vector integer) list-of-vector-of-integers), etc.
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2014-04-25T19:08:09Z pjb: What???
2014-04-25T19:08:11Z jasom: ltbarcly: in some implementations you will always get pointer dereferencing, in others they may be smart enough to infer it.  But yes, specifying the type is good to do.
2014-04-25T19:08:25Z ltbarcly: what is a simple-vector integer if simple-vectors must have type t?
2014-04-25T19:08:38Z jasom: ltbarcly: you can't do (simple-vector integer)
2014-04-25T19:08:44Z pjb: a simple-array of character is a simple-string.
2014-04-25T19:08:53Z jasom: you can do (simple-vector 3) which is a vector of length 3
2014-04-25T19:09:20Z pjb: Right, 'simple-vector or '(vector integer) you have to choose.
2014-04-25T19:09:35Z jasom: pjb: I use (simple-array integer (*))
2014-04-25T19:09:52Z jasom: pjb: which makes sbcl happy
2014-04-25T19:10:12Z ltbarcly: ahh, ok
2014-04-25T19:10:19Z pjb: I see.
2014-04-25T19:11:01Z ltbarcly: so to make a vector, you still call make-array?
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2014-04-25T19:11:10Z pjb: (apply (function concatenate) `(simple-array ,(array-element-type (first list-of-1d-simple-arrays)) (*)) list-of-1d-simple-arrays)
2014-04-25T19:11:11Z jasom ported some C number-crunching code to lisp a few years back and found (simple-array (unsigned-byte 32) (*)) would make sbcl generate unboxed calls
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2014-04-25T19:11:33Z pjb: I expect more from my compilers :-)
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2014-04-25T19:11:50Z ltbarcly: jasom: you mean boxed calls?
2014-04-25T19:12:03Z jasom: ltbarcly: I mean unboxed calls
2014-04-25T19:12:08Z ltbarcly: but wouldn't that be good?
2014-04-25T19:12:13Z jasom: yes
2014-04-25T19:12:24Z ltbarcly: oh, nice
2014-04-25T19:12:25Z jasom: which is why I use (simple-array TYPE (*))
2014-04-25T19:12:35Z katlogic: Each byte has their constitutional right to be boxed.
2014-04-25T19:12:42Z ltbarcly: what does the * do?
2014-04-25T19:12:47Z jasom: it's the correct way to specify a specialized vector without fill-pointers or expressly adjustable
2014-04-25T19:12:56Z ltbarcly: katlogic: you mean computational right
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2014-04-25T19:13:01Z jasom: ltbarcly: you could do (2 3) which would be a 2x3 array
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2014-04-25T19:13:09Z katlogic: Aye aye :)
2014-04-25T19:13:12Z ltbarcly: oh, by * you mean the length?
2014-04-25T19:13:16Z pjb: ltbarcly: it says that there's a single dimensison, unbounded.
2014-04-25T19:13:18Z pjb: Yes.
2014-04-25T19:13:20Z jasom: ltbarcly: or (6) which would be a length 6 vector; (*) means any length, but single dimension
2014-04-25T19:13:24Z pjb: (* *) would be a matrix.
2014-04-25T19:13:39Z pjb: (* . *) would be a smiley.
2014-04-25T19:13:51Z jasom: specification for tensors is left up to the reader
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2014-04-25T19:14:09Z ltbarcly: so you can actually put the * to say "one dimensional array of unknown size"
2014-04-25T19:14:15Z jasom: correct
2014-04-25T19:14:29Z ltbarcly: but if you don't put the (*), it assumes general array of any dimension?
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2014-04-25T19:14:34Z ltbarcly: thanks, that's a great tip
2014-04-25T19:14:34Z jasom: correct
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2014-04-25T19:15:01Z jasom: ltbarcly: start by getting the code correct though, then add type annotations.
2014-04-25T19:15:09Z ltbarcly: is it me, or was 'multidimensional array' pretty much a 70's thing?
2014-04-25T19:15:09Z jasom: that's how I work anyway
2014-04-25T19:15:24Z jasom: ltbarcly: not if you're doing linear algebra or computational physics
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2014-04-25T19:15:51Z dlowe: or graphics :p
2014-04-25T19:15:58Z ltbarcly: jasom: but even then you aren't likely to be using the built-in arrays but rather using some kind of linear algebra package, which will have specific desires wrt memory layout
2014-04-25T19:16:02Z jasom: dlowe: graphics is just applied linear algebra
2014-04-25T19:16:18Z ltbarcly: not to mention alignment
2014-04-25T19:18:14Z jasom: ltbarcly: not necessarily; I used them for calculating color-space transforms without using any special package; I do about 6 transforms per minute, so I don't care about performance there
2014-04-25T19:18:43Z jasom: I can totally multiply a 1x3 and 3x1 matrix in under 10s without a linear algebra package
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2014-04-25T19:19:05Z ltbarcly: it just seems cumbersome to have to deal with vectors as a sub-type of general arrays
2014-04-25T19:19:20Z stassats: jasom: with a pencil and paper?
2014-04-25T19:19:35Z ltbarcly: especially when most of the time vectors are representing lists-like things
2014-04-25T19:20:06Z jasom shrugs adding (*) to a type declaration takes me nearly 0 effort
2014-04-25T19:20:18Z ltbarcly: yea, it's not a big deal
2014-04-25T19:22:15Z jasom: stassats: I'd need a slide-rule to do it in 10s
2014-04-25T19:22:19Z ltbarcly: so if I have a list like (3 3 4), and I want to map + across it to give me (3 6 10), I don't see the obvious way to do it
2014-04-25T19:22:32Z jasom: stassats: there were fractional values and all, and I want at least 4 sig-figs
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2014-04-25T19:23:26Z jasom: ltbarcly: you want maplist I think
2014-04-25T19:23:48Z stassats: (reverse (loop for x on (reverse '(3 3 4)) collect (reduce #'+ x))) => (3 6 10)
2014-04-25T19:24:16Z jasom: (nreverse (maplist (lambda (x) (apply #'+ x)) (reverse '(3 3 4))))
2014-04-25T19:24:55Z stassats: (loop for x in '(3 3 4) sum x into sum collect sum) => (3 6 10)
2014-04-25T19:25:14Z jasom: and stassats has the win
2014-04-25T19:26:00Z jasom: also use reduce rather than apply if you want to not use the 3rd one, apply limits you to a list shorter than the maximum arglist length
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2014-04-25T21:16:48Z ltbarcly: so when using LOOP, there is an if/when/unless
2014-04-25T21:17:08Z ltbarcly: but it looks like it only supports if - then- else, but not 'else if'?
2014-04-25T21:17:15Z ltbarcly: in other words, it's not a replacement for cond?
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2014-04-25T21:17:18Z pjb: It does.
2014-04-25T21:17:47Z ltbarcly: do you just put another when in the 'else' ?
2014-04-25T21:18:36Z pjb: conditional::= {if | when | unless} form selectable-clause {and selectable-clause}*
2014-04-25T21:18:36Z pjb:                [else selectable-clause {and selectable-clause}*]
2014-04-25T21:18:36Z pjb:                [end]
2014-04-25T21:18:36Z pjb: selectable-clause::= unconditional | accumulation | conditional
2014-04-25T21:18:42Z pjb:  
2014-04-25T21:18:43Z pjb: clhs loop
2014-04-25T21:18:44Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_loop.htm
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2014-04-25T21:21:03Z ltbarcly: yea, I'm trying to puzzle that out
2014-04-25T21:21:08Z ltbarcly: had that open
2014-04-25T21:21:25Z ltbarcly: is it just for collecting/summing/etc?
2014-04-25T21:21:29Z ltbarcly: not general forms?
2014-04-25T21:21:30Z pjb: if (= 1 a) (print 1) else  if (= 2 a) (print 2) else  if (= 3 a) (print 3) else (print 'something-else) end end end
2014-04-25T21:21:38Z ltbarcly: hmm
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2014-04-25T21:22:50Z pjb: Oops, you're right, unconditional starts with do or doing.
2014-04-25T21:23:01Z pjb: if (= 1 a) (print 1) else  if (= 2 a) do (print 2) else  if (= 3 a) do (print 3) else do (print 'something-else) end end end
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2014-04-25T21:23:54Z stassats: END is optional
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2014-04-25T21:24:17Z stassats: but there are some cases where it is needed
2014-04-25T21:24:43Z ltbarcly: (loop for i from 1 to 10 when (= i 5) (print i)) doesn't work
2014-04-25T21:24:51Z stassats: where's your DO?
2014-04-25T21:25:04Z ltbarcly: oh, I see
2014-04-25T21:25:25Z ltbarcly: in the example it had collect, which can take the place of do
2014-04-25T21:25:43Z pjb: collect is in accumulation. do in unconditional.
2014-04-25T21:25:58Z guaqua: ltbarcly: use the abstraction that makes it blindingly obvious see what you meant
2014-04-25T21:26:08Z guaqua: if that's cond, then that's cond
2014-04-25T21:27:29Z ltbarcly: guaqua: I have a pretty awful loop that has a setup, teardown, etc.  it has a body that is always run, which includes a cond.  all the parts refer to at least some of the symbols modified by the loop
2014-04-25T21:27:48Z ltbarcly: the alternative to a complex LOOP is a let* outside the loop, a let* inside the loop, and a COND inside the let* inside the loop
2014-04-25T21:27:52Z ltbarcly: this is far cleaner
2014-04-25T21:29:06Z guaqua: could you blow it into pieces in a functional way? iterate is another "holistic" approach to looping which might be useful
2014-04-25T21:29:39Z guaqua: not saying it can be, just that these might be of use.  sometimes no looping construct will save you from the complexity of real word
2014-04-25T21:31:19Z ltbarcly: guaqua: it's an algorithm from a paper, it's super gross but one of the only linear time algorithms for what I'm doing
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2014-04-25T21:33:07Z guaqua: ahh
2014-04-25T21:33:19Z ltbarcly: so if I understand it correctly, 'with' forms are evaluated initially, 'for x = ' forms are evaluated at each iteration?
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2014-04-25T21:33:31Z axion: right
2014-04-25T21:33:33Z guaqua: that's a sort fo a special problem
2014-04-25T21:33:44Z ltbarcly: except for for x = i then z forms, where i is initially and then z at each iteration
2014-04-25T21:33:50Z guaqua: i'd start with the original algorithm and try not to change it radically
2014-04-25T21:34:01Z guaqua: which i guess you've been doing all along :)
2014-04-25T21:34:04Z ltbarcly: yea, it's in pseudocode
2014-04-25T21:34:33Z ltbarcly: I implemented it with c++, and that is tested and works, so I'm reimplementing the c++ in CL
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2014-04-25T21:51:23Z ltbarcly:  (loop with sa simple-array = (make-array 5 :element-type 'fixnum) for i from 1 to 10 do (print sa)) < this works, but I can't figure out how to give a better type specifier than just "simple-array"
2014-04-25T21:51:37Z ltbarcly: giving it (simple-array fixnum) causes it to not compile
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2014-04-25T21:55:26Z nyef: Because the only legal "simple-type-spec"s are FIXNUM, FLOAT, T, and NIL, so your first example shouldn't work either.
2014-04-25T21:55:41Z nyef: clhs loop
2014-04-25T21:55:41Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_loop.htm
2014-04-25T21:55:54Z pjb: What about not giving any?
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2014-04-25T21:56:31Z nyef: Now, including of-type might help.
2014-04-25T21:57:09Z nyef: clhs 6.1.1.7
2014-04-25T21:57:09Z specbot: Destructuring: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/06_aag.htm
2014-04-25T21:57:15Z nyef: This seems somewhat relevant.
2014-04-25T21:57:43Z ltbarcly: if I don't give any, then it complains that it can't optimize because it doesn't know the type of the array at compile time
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2014-04-25T21:58:41Z ltbarcly: ahh, adding of-type does let it sort it out
2014-04-25T21:58:56Z ltbarcly: thanks nyef
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2014-04-25T21:59:17Z nyef: Not a problem. This isn't something I've really looked into before, so it was interesting.
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2014-04-25T22:18:06Z PuercoPop: oi, If I want to open the slime-inspector on an object from cl, which function I should be looking for?
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2014-04-25T22:19:49Z ltbarcly: I don't see when you would use "it" in a when clause?
2014-04-25T22:19:56Z ltbarcly: can't it only be t or nil?
2014-04-25T22:20:01Z stassats: no
2014-04-25T22:20:29Z pjb: (loop for x in '((1 1) (1 2 3) (3 3 3))  when (member 2 x) collect it) --> ((2 3))
2014-04-25T22:20:29Z stassats: (loop for x across "a123bd" when (digit-char-p x) sum it )
2014-04-25T22:20:30Z ltbarcly: oh, it can be nil or anything?
2014-04-25T22:20:59Z pjb: unless it would be useful to obfuscate a nil :-)
2014-04-25T22:21:14Z PuercoPop: ltbarcly: yes, and many functions in cl take advantage of that. For example member.
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2014-04-25T22:27:13Z stassats: note that IT is not a variable, it is a loop statement
2014-04-25T22:27:20Z stassats: (loop for x across "a123bd" when (digit-char-p x) sum (* it 2)) won't work
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2014-04-25T22:43:15Z ferret_commander: why loop why not recursion?
2014-04-25T22:43:53Z pjb: Because with dynamic binding, it's harder to ensure tail recursion, therefore stackless recursive processes.
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2014-04-25T22:45:47Z stassats: why recursion, why not goto?
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2014-04-25T22:50:23Z ferret_commander: goto makes the raptor chase you
2014-04-25T22:50:51Z pjb: After all, with goto, the control flow is clearer, more explicit.
2014-04-25T22:51:56Z ferret_commander: but the raptor
2014-04-25T22:52:48Z pjb: With goto you can make a bigger labyrinth to  lose him down.
2014-04-25T22:53:34Z ferret_commander: if loop then non functional?
2014-04-25T23:00:01Z ferret_commander: yeah
2014-04-25T23:00:14Z JuanDaugherty: or unlispy anywho by tradition i think
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2014-04-25T23:01:22Z ferret_commander: It seems that paul graham adopted a policy of forking a lisp interpreter for each web client in his web app, thereby avoiding many multiprocessing problems and in essence craeting a small webserver for each client..which could run on any available os cpu as its own process, and have a conversation with that client
2014-04-25T23:01:44Z ferret_commander: interesting stuff!
2014-04-25T23:01:51Z stassats: hackernews is that way
2014-04-25T23:02:06Z Denommus: JuanDaugherty: loop is not unlispy, quite the contrary
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2014-04-25T23:02:15Z Denommus: JuanDaugherty: in Common Lisp, it is the recommended way to iterate
2014-04-25T23:02:35Z Denommus: after all, the standard does not enforce tail call optimization like Scheme's
2014-04-25T23:03:21Z pjb: ferret_commander: at the time, he hadn't a choice, since clisp didn't have support for threads.
2014-04-25T23:03:25Z JuanDaugherty: Denommus, i no, it's been in the std since day 1
2014-04-25T23:03:41Z pjb: That said, unix systems are optimized to fork a lot, so it wasn't a bad strategy.
2014-04-25T23:03:51Z ferret_commander: sounds like a stroke of genius
2014-04-25T23:04:05Z ferret_commander: pretty sure rails does it that way
2014-04-25T23:04:12Z ferret_commander: shudder
2014-04-25T23:04:17Z stassats: so genius
2014-04-25T23:04:21Z pjb: classical unix technique is a stroke of genius, ok, I put you on the book for that quote.
2014-04-25T23:05:10Z Denommus: ferret_commander: as for "loops aren't functional", that's true in some sense. But in purely functional languages you'll usually use higher order functions that make iteration through recursion interally. In practice, what you end up with is really similar to what we have with LOOP
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2014-04-25T23:05:59Z ferret_commander: hm
2014-04-25T23:06:19Z Denommus: s/interally/internally/
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2014-04-25T23:07:00Z ferret_commander: I am thinking of tackling the gentle intro again
2014-04-25T23:07:22Z ferret_commander: I love lisp but have trouble getting things in and out of files
2014-04-25T23:07:23Z ferret_commander: :(
2014-04-25T23:07:33Z stassats: gavino, is that you?
2014-04-25T23:07:41Z ferret_commander: to say nothing of making dynamic web stuff
2014-04-25T23:07:46Z ferret_commander: could be
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2014-04-25T23:08:10Z ferret_commander: stassats: are you paul graham?
2014-04-25T23:08:28Z Bike: he is
2014-04-25T23:09:11Z Denommus: ferret_commander: WITH-OPEN-FILE is easy to use
2014-04-25T23:10:11Z ferret_commander: ok so say I have a file with two rows
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2014-04-25T23:10:25Z ferret_commander: 5 numbers space delimited in each
2014-04-25T23:10:45Z Denommus: ferret_commander: you can read a number using just READ
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2014-04-25T23:10:59Z ferret_commander: how easy is it to open the file, break the content into two lists and then cmoputer various sums n things off the lists?
2014-04-25T23:11:08Z jasom: ferret_commander: really really easy
2014-04-25T23:11:19Z Denommus: ferret_commander: I'll make a paste
2014-04-25T23:11:39Z ferret_commander: I guess I am a bti intimdated by lisp
2014-04-25T23:11:40Z ferret_commander: still..
2014-04-25T23:11:41Z ferret_commander: ok
2014-04-25T23:12:08Z jasom: (with-open-file (f "filename") (let ((list1 (split-sequence #\Space (read-line f))) (list2 (split-sequence #\Space (read-line f)))) ...))
2014-04-25T23:12:10Z Bike: (loop repeat 2 (loop repeat 5 collect (read stream)))
2014-04-25T23:12:49Z stassats: still? for how many years is that already? 10?
2014-04-25T23:12:52Z jasom: Bike's will work if you know for a fact the file is in the format you describe; mine will handle other cases a bit more gracefully
2014-04-25T23:12:53Z Bike: another collect i guess
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2014-04-25T23:14:03Z jasom: ferret_commander: note that split-sequence is in a library (named split-sequence); I use it often enough that I tend to include it by habit in anything I write
2014-04-25T23:14:45Z ferret_commander: fires up cygwin
2014-04-25T23:15:19Z jasom: ferret_commander: why cygwin?
2014-04-25T23:16:22Z ferret_commander: on windoz
2014-04-25T23:16:42Z jasom: ferret_commander: I guessed that; I'm wondering what you are using cygwin for
2014-04-25T23:17:24Z ferret_commander: to start clisp and give this a try
2014-04-25T23:17:43Z jasom: cool; I thought clisp ran as a windows-native executable
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2014-04-25T23:17:48Z Denommus: ferret_commander: this is how I'd produce the two lists in question
2014-04-25T23:17:50Z jasom rarely uses windows
2014-04-25T23:18:08Z ferret_commander: looking...
2014-04-25T23:18:08Z Denommus: ferret_commander: after that, you can manipulate them with map, reduce and stuff
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2014-04-25T23:19:32Z Denommus: ferret_commander: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142294
2014-04-25T23:19:46Z Denommus: ferret_commander: (sorry, I forgot to paste the link)
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2014-04-25T23:20:01Z jasom: ferret_commander: I think he ants 2 consecutive lists of 5, not alternating
2014-04-25T23:20:11Z Denommus: ferret_commander: anyway, under windows I recommend you to use clozure instead
2014-04-25T23:20:17Z jasom: oh, yours does that, I didn't see the until
2014-04-25T23:20:35Z jasom: no it doesn't do that
2014-04-25T23:20:47Z Denommus: jasom: ah
2014-04-25T23:20:55Z Denommus: jasom: well, that would also be easy
2014-04-25T23:21:13Z jasom: Bike had it right, except missing a collect
2014-04-25T23:21:23Z jasom: (loop reapeat 2 collect (loop repeat 5 collect (read stream)))
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2014-04-25T23:22:06Z Bike: though if i was actually doing this i'd probably do something more like jasom's.
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2014-04-25T23:22:27Z jasom: and parse-integer to parse if they are supposted to be integers, parse-number otherwise
2014-04-25T23:22:45Z jasom: parse-number is also not in the standard, but in a library
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2014-04-25T23:22:59Z Bike: right
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2014-04-25T23:25:59Z ferret_commander: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142295
2014-04-25T23:26:02Z ferret_commander: ok here is the file
2014-04-25T23:26:32Z Bike: well we already gave you like five verbatim solutions, i'm sure you can work something out
2014-04-25T23:26:40Z ferret_commander: jasom:  your code about gives a error with unexpected f
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2014-04-25T23:26:57Z jasom: ferret_commander: http://paste.lisp.org/+31SO
2014-04-25T23:27:17Z jasom: ferret_commander: that's a log from slime
2014-04-25T23:28:17Z jasom: ferret_commander: my earlier one I typed into IRC probably had some parens in the wrong place; I don't have paren matching in irssi
2014-04-25T23:30:44Z ferret_commander: installing quicklisp one sec
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2014-04-25T23:30:48Z jasom: I'd probably add (:remove-empty-subseqs t) to split-sequence as well
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2014-04-25T23:32:05Z jasom: ferret_commander: optionally you could write split-sequence yourself; it's a decent exercise.
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2014-04-25T23:32:24Z jasom: and you can use parse-integer (which is part of the standard) if all the numbers are integers
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2014-04-25T23:37:02Z ferret_commander: friggin ql not loading those libs one sec
2014-04-25T23:38:48Z ferret_commander: done now trying the code
2014-04-25T23:39:59Z ferret_commander: works!
2014-04-25T23:40:02Z ferret_commander: thx!
2014-04-25T23:40:33Z jasom: ferret_commander: let me know if there's any part where you don't understand how it works
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2014-04-25T23:46:48Z ferret_commander: say the file had 40 lines
2014-04-25T23:47:08Z ferret_commander: or more than 40 would i change the code from 2 to some unknown number of lines?
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2014-04-25T23:48:35Z ferret_commander: thank you anyway for help
2014-04-25T23:48:40Z ferret_commander: great working example
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2014-04-25T23:59:04Z jasom: ferret_commander: if you don't know how many lines I'd split the loop up abit
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2014-04-25T23:59:41Z jasom: (loop for line = (read-line f nil nil) ...)
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2014-04-26T00:02:49Z jasom: ferret_commander: http://paste.lisp.org/+31SO/1  (The extra parameter I put to split-sequence isn't  for arbitrary lines)
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2014-04-26T00:04:27Z jasom: :remove-empty just means if your input is something like "1    2 3" it splits to ("1" "2" "3") rather than ("1 "" "" "" "2" "3"); the former removes the empty strings from the latter, which are what happen when you literally split at every single space (two spaces in a row is an empty string between two spaces)
2014-04-26T00:04:42Z jasom: and to see what the extra args to read-line are read this:
2014-04-26T00:04:45Z jasom: clhs read-line
2014-04-26T00:04:45Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_lin.htm
2014-04-26T00:05:21Z jasom: But you can play around with all that stuff in the REPL, that's what it's there for
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2014-04-26T00:40:25Z ferret_commander: whats easiest way to get 23rd element of a list?
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2014-04-26T00:42:26Z nyef: clhs nth
2014-04-26T00:42:26Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_nth.htm
2014-04-26T00:42:29Z nyef: clhs elt
2014-04-26T00:42:30Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_elt.htm
2014-04-26T00:42:39Z nyef: ferret_commander: Either of those.
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2014-04-26T00:47:34Z ferret_commander: lisp does make my life easy
2014-04-26T00:47:42Z ferret_commander: I should have lisped more earlier!
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2014-04-26T01:02:32Z ltbarcly: I'm getting an out of bounds access exception on an array, but the traceback only goes back to the function called, not where in the function the access happened?
2014-04-26T01:02:38Z ltbarcly: is there a way to get a better traceback?
2014-04-26T01:02:48Z ltbarcly: this is in sbcl
2014-04-26T01:02:53Z pjb: Use handler-bind instead of handler-case
2014-04-26T01:03:21Z ltbarcly: I'm not using either, it's bailing out when I run the test
2014-04-26T01:03:57Z pjb: Compile the function with (optimize (debug 3))
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2014-04-26T01:05:30Z ltbarcly: yea, I have debug 3
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2014-04-26T01:07:49Z ltbarcly: oh, hey, slime has a way to jump to it
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2014-04-26T01:13:36Z ltbarcly: and that just prints out the entire function
2014-04-26T01:13:38Z ltbarcly: ack
2014-04-26T01:13:54Z pjb: It should move the cursor on the exact point.
2014-04-26T01:14:08Z pjb: the v key on the backtrace line in *sldb8.
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2014-04-26T01:16:10Z ltbarcly: it opens a new buffer with the source of the function, and the cursor on the first character
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2014-04-26T01:16:53Z ltbarcly: oh, I see a string ****HERE****, that must be it
2014-04-26T01:18:16Z ferret_commander: is map used when I want to run a function against a list if lists?
2014-04-26T01:18:26Z ferret_commander: of-
2014-04-26T01:19:10Z ferret_commander: Like say I have the stats of an NBA player, and want to compute his point per shot, which is points/(fg + ft/2)
2014-04-26T01:19:38Z ferret_commander: I think I can open the file and make a list of lists each being a row of the stats for a year
2014-04-26T01:20:08Z ferret_commander: but then I have to either loop or use something like map to pick out point, fg, ft from each list and then calculate
2014-04-26T01:20:20Z ferret_commander: then do for eahc year
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2014-04-26T01:25:41Z ferret_commander: the final step i think would be perfect for map if I did a defun for the calc
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2014-04-26T02:16:52Z Denommus: I have two lists, '(1 2 3), '(4 5 6). I want to run a function for every triple of possible combinations, like '(((1 4) (2 5) (3 6)) ((1 5) (2 4) (3 6)) ((1 6) (2 5) (3 4)) ...)
2014-04-26T02:16:56Z Denommus: is there any function for that?
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2014-04-26T02:27:00Z Bike: i think alexandria has a map-combinations or suchlike
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2014-04-26T02:27:43Z Bike: map-products
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2014-04-26T02:31:24Z Denommus: map-products doesn't group that way
2014-04-26T02:31:44Z Denommus: what I want would be more on the line of Haskell's map (zip [1, 2, 3]) $ [4, 5, 6]
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2014-04-26T02:33:59Z Denommus: ok, made it
2014-04-26T02:35:06Z Bike: that doesn't appear to be valid haskell, but alright if you figured it out yourself good
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2014-04-26T02:36:39Z Denommus: Bike: it definitely is valid Haskell
2014-04-26T02:36:59Z Bike: i tried it and got a type error. since zip is [a] -> [b] -> [(a,b)]
2014-04-26T02:37:08Z Denommus: Bike: ah, I forgot a function
2014-04-26T02:37:27Z Denommus: Bike: map (zip [1, 2, 3]) $ permutations [4, 5, 6]
2014-04-26T02:37:29Z Bike: anyway you could probably do that with map-permuations somehow
2014-04-26T02:37:35Z Bike: right then
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2014-04-26T02:41:45Z szh_: hi I'm new to clisp and programming: if I want to collect the elements satsifying a certain condition in a list, is it (better/more efficient) to i) mapc a checker function through the list OR ii) recursively check through the list
2014-04-26T02:42:57Z Bike: szh_: you can use remove-if-not
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2014-04-26T02:45:27Z szh_: Bike: yes. but which is "better"? I mean, there's always more than one way to do it. Do programmers generally know time complexities of these algorithms, or do they keep track of some performance metric, or doesn't it really make a difference?
2014-04-26T02:46:25Z Bike: well, they're both linear. recursion might use stack. if you're concerned with speed you should probably use another data structure anyway, though.
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2014-04-26T02:49:55Z szh_: Bike: thanks! I'll read up more on data structures.
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2014-04-26T03:05:48Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2014-04-26T03:06:32Z ltbarcly: good evening beach
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2014-04-26T03:22:35Z beach: In case any one is interested, I am making progress on specifying the POSIX interface(s): http://metamodular.com/POSIX-API/posix-api.html and especially the low-level interface.
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2014-04-26T04:33:43Z beach: Imagine I want to define some of those low-level POSIX functions in SBCL.  What would be a good method (preferably without recompiling SBCL)?  I was thinking I need to create a FASL file, but maybe there are better methods.
2014-04-26T04:34:27Z beach: If I need to create a FASL file, I need to know the format (which seems to vary according to the version of SBCL).  Is it documented somewhere, or do I need to read the source code?
2014-04-26T04:34:54Z Bike: wait, you want to make a fasl yourself, withotu compile-file or anything?
2014-04-26T04:35:16Z Bike: when i looked at the code it was pretty easy to understand, a simple stack-based sorta language, i think
2014-04-26T04:35:18Z beach: That's what I was thinking.
2014-04-26T04:35:25Z beach: Oh, OK.
2014-04-26T04:35:38Z Bike: Why? This seems interesting.
2014-04-26T04:36:31Z beach: Well, I have defined a low-level POSIX system call interface.  I need to create a native SBCL function but that is written in assembler.
2014-04-26T04:36:50Z Bike: shouldn't you use a vop?
2014-04-26T04:37:14Z beach: Sorry, I don't know what a vop is.  Also, I imagine that would require recompiling SBCL, no?
2014-04-26T04:37:38Z Bike: VOP = Virtual OPeration = sbcl's assembly-level IR thing. And you can define new ones without a recompile.
2014-04-26T04:37:50Z beach: Ah, I see.
2014-04-26T04:37:55Z Bike: #sbcl would know more than me
2014-04-26T04:38:13Z beach: Sure.  I am just trying to figure out the best method at this point.
2014-04-26T04:39:21Z p_l: beach: afaik you can define it as a VOP and make it known to the compiler and visible as "function" in the image
2014-04-26T04:39:23Z beach: It seems to me that as long as I know the calling conventions, I can write an assembly program to do what I want (it needs to be in machine language anyway, because there are specific register uses for system calls).  Then it is just a matter of defining it as a native function.
2014-04-26T04:39:48Z Bike: http://discontinuity.info/~pkhuong/sbcl-switch-case.lisp here's a random example of a vop
2014-04-26T04:39:57Z beach: p_l: Seems like overkill to me though.
2014-04-26T04:40:05Z p_l: beach: VOPs take care of things like declaring how registers get mapped etc.
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2014-04-26T04:40:43Z Bike: there was a simpler one that just did rtdsc, but i think it was merged
2014-04-26T04:40:49Z Bike: rdtsc*
2014-04-26T04:41:29Z p_l: the computed-goto example is a bit more involved with compiler
2014-04-26T04:41:53Z beach: Bike: OK thanks.  I won't try to dig into that right now.  Just trying to figure out the best method at this point.
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2014-04-26T04:42:26Z Bike: alright. i'm just thinking, you know, the best method hopefully doesn't involve writing your own files in a totally undocumented, unstable format :P
2014-04-26T04:42:45Z beach: Yeah, not a very attractive solution.
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2014-04-26T04:43:47Z beach: Hmm, VOPs are not in the SBCL internals documentation.
2014-04-26T04:43:49Z p_l: http://www.pvk.ca/Blog/2013/06/05/fresh-in-sbcl-1-dot-1-8-sse-intrinsics/ <--- this might be a bit more readable
2014-04-26T04:46:02Z beach: p_l: Yeah, doesn't look too bad.
2014-04-26T04:48:49Z p_l: beach: https://github.com/angavrilov/cl-simd might also be usable
2014-04-26T04:49:50Z beach: p_l: Thanks!
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2014-04-26T04:50:27Z p_l: essentially, from my understanding, SBCL doesn't have "inline assembly" in classic terms, but you can create complex "virtual operations" that implement an operation with assembly code, and then make them "known" as directly callable functions
2014-04-26T04:52:07Z Bike: yeah, there are some function definitions like (defun car (x) (car x)) because the compiler is taught to turn (car x) into a vop or sequence of vops separately
2014-04-26T04:52:22Z beach: p_l: I didn't expect inline assembly, which is pretty messy anyway.  But I haven't studied VOPs yet, which is what I shall have to do, I now understand.
2014-04-26T04:52:41Z p_l: the setup allows for reusing SBCL's optimizer even with handwritten routines (consider the one bit in pkhuong's blog where he gets a sequence of 4? SSE operations from a bunch of "calls")
2014-04-26T04:53:32Z beach: p_l: Sure, and that is why I think it is overkill, because I don't need for the compiler to know about this particular code.
2014-04-26T04:53:48Z beach: But if that's the way it is done, then so be it.
2014-04-26T04:53:52Z p_l: beach: well, in this case it's only to inform the compiler that it should replace the calls properly
2014-04-26T04:54:14Z p_l: it will probably also automate some allocation and translation stuff for you
2014-04-26T04:54:14Z beach: p_l: Yes, and that is not something that is needed in this case.
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2014-04-26T04:54:27Z beach: ... which is also not needed.
2014-04-26T04:54:41Z p_l: heh
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2014-04-26T04:59:15Z ahungry: ugh, why is my heap being exhausted when reading and parsing a 5000 line file
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2014-04-26T05:06:05Z |3b|: beach: maybe you want a c (or asm with c calling convention) lib that could be called with FFI? shared lib would allow testing without rebuilding sbcl, though might be harder to build
2014-04-26T05:07:00Z beach: |3b|: That's a possibility.  Though I am trying to avoid C and its calling conventions as much as possible.
2014-04-26T05:07:12Z Bike: for posix? that seems impressive
2014-04-26T05:07:25Z beach: Bike: How so?
2014-04-26T05:07:47Z Bike: just because posix is fairly C-based, isn't it?
2014-04-26T05:07:57Z |3b|: so you want asm code that looks like lisp functions to SBCL?
2014-04-26T05:08:34Z beach: Bike: Not really.  I mean, the system calls are already not in C, and libc must define a C interface in assembly or machine code.
2014-04-26T05:08:43Z beach: |3b|: Yes, exactly.
2014-04-26T05:09:59Z |3b| suspects VOP would probably be the best way, since you would want access to SBCL internals when writing the asm anyway
2014-04-26T05:10:22Z |3b|: for example size of fixnums is a compile-time option in sbcl, so you can't just write asm assuming a particular size
2014-04-26T05:10:45Z beach: Yes, I see.
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2014-04-26T05:40:35Z beach: So would I need a single SYSTEM-CALL VOP or one VOP for each of the 300+ system calls?  And if the latter, would that influence the performance of the compiler?  If so that would be unfortunate because there is absolutely nothing the compiler needs to know here.
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2014-04-26T05:55:46Z beach will ask #sbcl at some point.
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2014-04-26T05:57:33Z p_l: beach: you'd need one VOP for each of the calling conventions that you want to use (there are more than one in Linux itself), then just wrap them in functions that would call them with apropriate syscall number and parameters
2014-04-26T05:58:16Z beach: OK.
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2014-04-26T06:49:28Z DarkLinkXXXX: Out of stupid curiosity, has anyone implemented lisp in lisp yet?
2014-04-26T06:49:48Z Bike: about a million times
2014-04-26T06:49:53Z |3b|: many lisps are at least partially implemented in lisp
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2014-04-26T06:50:10Z p_l: DarkLinkXXXX: pretty much the norm for all CL implementations
2014-04-26T06:50:28Z beach: DarkLinkXXXX: It would be silly to use an inferior language when Lisp can be used.
2014-04-26T06:50:28Z |3b|: running on systems with C-based OS APIs means it is easier to write part in C too, so not many all in lisp these days
2014-04-26T06:50:37Z DarkLinkXXXX: Yeah, but I mean... from top to bottom? I'm talking about CL, of course.
2014-04-26T06:51:06Z DarkLinkXXXX: beach, Have a point.
2014-04-26T06:51:08Z p_l: most currently used ones tend to have bits and pieces of C, but that's mostly a time-saving thing involving low-level details of setting up the runtime and interacting with OS. Kinda like bootloader sometimes
2014-04-26T06:51:08Z beach: minion: Please tell DarkLinkXXXX about sicl.
2014-04-26T06:51:08Z minion: DarkLinkXXXX: sicl: SICL is a (perhaps futile) attempt to re-implement Common Lisp from scratch, hopefully using improved programming and bootstrapping techniques. See https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL
2014-04-26T06:51:38Z beach: DarkLinkXXXX: While SICL is not finished yet, it will have no C in it.
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2014-04-26T06:51:54Z p_l: DarkLinkXXXX: all of those functions are possible to be implemented purely using SBCL compiler for example, but it's pointless navel-gazing at to do so
2014-04-26T06:51:55Z beach: (or any other language either, save assembly, for that matter)
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2014-04-26T06:53:11Z p_l: DarkLinkXXXX: Lisp Machine Lisps were pretty much completely in Lisp. I think maclisp was pretty much all lisp except for bits and pieces of assembly code
2014-04-26T06:54:00Z |3b|: you also probably want a lower-level language for things like GC, either a constrained subset of CL, a separate lisp dialect, or some other language, so C tends to be used there on implementations that already use C for talking to the OS
2014-04-26T06:54:41Z p_l: the only bits of Genera that weren't in Lisp afaik were FORTRAN, C, and Pascal runtime libraries (obviously), and VLM (which was written in custom macroassembler written in CL)
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2014-04-26T06:55:45Z p_l: |3b|: hmm... implementing GC in CL by virtue of using only d-x allocation and multiple-values... :D
2014-04-26T06:55:56Z p_l: (ok, maybe some VOPs)
2014-04-26T06:56:13Z |3b|: p_l: watch out for bignums
2014-04-26T06:56:35Z p_l: |3b|: no bignums in GC itself
2014-04-26T06:56:38Z |3b|: (at least on 32 bit platforms)
2014-04-26T06:56:52Z |3b|: depends on where the address space is mapped
2014-04-26T06:57:20Z p_l: |3b|: could fixnums be reasonably 31bit on 32bit platforms?
2014-04-26T06:57:25Z p_l: (I know some languages do so)
2014-04-26T06:57:32Z |3b|: though i guess you could store pointers in typed dx arrays or something
2014-04-26T06:57:51Z |3b|: depends on how you design the rest of the language
2014-04-26T06:57:51Z p_l: also, yeah, special type for pointers
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2014-04-26T06:58:20Z p_l: the GC could have typed arrays of "scratch space", too
2014-04-26T06:58:25Z |3b|: or rather rest of the tagging, not really a language issue
2014-04-26T06:58:55Z |3b|: but yeah, that sort of thing is what i meant by 'constrained subset of CL'
2014-04-26T06:59:13Z p_l: hehehe
2014-04-26T06:59:21Z p_l: would be interesting to pull off with SBCL
2014-04-26T06:59:50Z p_l: especially if you could tune and modify the GC at runtime
2014-04-26T07:00:19Z |3b|: then there is the fun of making the debugger work under same constraints :)
2014-04-26T07:00:31Z |3b|: or even things like printing
2014-04-26T07:01:21Z p_l: |3b|: it would be funnier if we had something like Application Domains of .NET
2014-04-26T07:01:48Z Bike: What's that?
2014-04-26T07:01:58Z p_l: especially if you could partially stack them (run GC in one domain serving another)
2014-04-26T07:02:06Z Bike: uh.
2014-04-26T07:02:47Z p_l: Bike: Every .NET application lives in an environment called "Application Domain", which are in general parallel on top of the low-level runtime.
2014-04-26T07:03:16Z p_l: By default everything is in the default domain created at start, however, you can load code explicitly into different domain, constrain it, etc.
2014-04-26T07:04:04Z p_l: now imagine implementing domain-level fork, and instead of dying after saving core, you could fork the domain as frozen, modify it then dump, without stopping main domain
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2014-04-26T07:06:32Z p_l: though I'll take fully relocatable and shrinkable dynamic space first :D
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2014-04-26T08:35:41Z oleo: morning
2014-04-26T08:41:07Z JuanDaugherty: yello
2014-04-26T08:41:39Z beach: Hello oleo.
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2014-04-26T08:50:04Z oleo: hey beach
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2014-04-26T10:49:54Z ivan-kanis: I finally have started Open Genera for the first time
2014-04-26T10:50:03Z oleo: and ?
2014-04-26T10:50:14Z oleo: all worky ?
2014-04-26T10:56:21Z ivan-kanis: Not quite
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2014-04-26T12:38:12Z stassats`: i now have slime remotely connected to SBCL-ARM on my phone: http://i.imgur.com/DiXl3i0.png
2014-04-26T12:38:14Z stassats`: feels nice
2014-04-26T12:39:03Z beach: Congratulations!
2014-04-26T12:39:07Z p_l: wheee
2014-04-26T12:40:24Z p_l: how far along is the implementation?
2014-04-26T12:41:15Z nyef: In terms of what?
2014-04-26T12:41:18Z stassats`: it can run slime, that's pretty far
2014-04-26T12:42:15Z nyef: There's almost no D-X, it's a cheneygc backend, PURIFY doesn't work, stepping doesn't work, some of the float stuff is still broken, I think that EQL might still be broken for a few cases...
2014-04-26T12:44:00Z nyef: That said, it runs SLIME, which really does require that most of the system work.
2014-04-26T12:44:52Z nyef: We had a cold REPL on... Tuesday, was it? Now we're dealing with a warm REPL, problems building contribs, running SLIME, and so on.
2014-04-26T12:45:04Z stassats`: let's try quicklisp something
2014-04-26T12:45:09Z nyef: Heh.
2014-04-26T12:45:23Z stassats`: we had a beginning of cold-init last saturday
2014-04-26T12:46:23Z nyef: Right. You need a whole awful lot of stuff at least roughed in before you can build enough of the system to start cold-init.
2014-04-26T12:47:56Z stassats`: too bad i can't say that it's the first time i'm running quicklisp on a phone, since i already did that with CCL
2014-04-26T12:48:29Z nyef: And I won't be running this on my phone, because I don't want to root it to set up an environment.
2014-04-26T12:48:59Z stassats`: i already had it rooted (and the screen shattered)
2014-04-26T12:52:19Z stassats`: quickloaded cl-ppcre, (ppcre:split "\\s*" "foo bar   baz") => ("f" "o" "o" "b" "a" "r" "b" "a" "z")
2014-04-26T12:52:37Z p_l: :3
2014-04-26T12:52:56Z H4ns: woha, nice!  congratulations!
2014-04-26T12:52:56Z nyef: Seems reasonable to me.
2014-04-26T12:53:06Z p_l: nyef: a bit of work and you should be able to load CCL or SBCL without rooting
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2014-04-26T12:53:18Z stassats`: some cl-ppcre tests failed due to me not the correct float support
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2014-04-26T12:53:45Z stassats`: i can package sbcl and sell it for a buck or two on the play store
2014-04-26T12:54:19Z Xach: nice
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2014-04-26T12:56:54Z hitecnologys: Huh. SBCL on ARM?
2014-04-26T12:57:04Z hitecnologys: Sounds cool.
2014-04-26T12:58:01Z stassats`: why is my phone warm then?
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2014-04-26T12:58:45Z nyef: I can feel the heat generated by my Raspberry Pi through the case that I have it installed in.
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2014-04-26T13:00:28Z hitecnologys: stassats`: try recalibrating your heat sensors.
2014-04-26T13:04:12Z H4ns: Xach: fixed for real now, sorry for not dealing with it promptly.
2014-04-26T13:04:19Z H4ns: Xach: (planetwit)
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2014-04-26T13:50:56Z Xach: H4ns: no problem
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2014-04-26T15:10:48Z Poenikatu: Has anybody written an interface builder for the CLIM?
2014-04-26T15:12:49Z Poenikatu: Is anybody *using* the CLIM?
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2014-04-26T15:19:13Z |3b| has seen people trying to use it here, but not much about people actually doing much with it (aside from beach sometimes trying to make a new version of it)
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2014-04-26T15:20:02Z nyef: Not just beach, I have my own implementation project, NQ-CLIM.
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2014-04-26T15:20:22Z stassats`: not quite clim?
2014-04-26T15:20:46Z nyef: Not Quite CLIM.
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2014-04-26T15:21:02Z nyef: I figure, truth in advertising. (-:
2014-04-26T15:21:10Z stassats`: New Quick CLIM,  Nano Quantum CLIM
2014-04-26T15:21:16Z beach: Poenikatu: I am not aware of any interface builder for CLIM.  I do use it for my own applications, though.
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2014-04-26T15:21:59Z Poenikatu: beach: How interesting! I am just reading the Guided Tour of mcclim
2014-04-26T15:23:00Z |3b|: is RESTART-CASE expected to cons in sbcl?
2014-04-26T15:23:04Z Shinmera: stassats`: By the way, I would very much buy an SBCL app for android
2014-04-26T15:23:18Z Poenikatu: Has anybody created a tree gadget for the CLIM?
2014-04-26T15:23:47Z beach: Poenikatu: Yes, there have been a few.  Like for displaying file hierarchies.
2014-04-26T15:24:09Z Poenikatu: beach: Great. Is the code available?
2014-04-26T15:24:23Z beach: Poenikatu: It should be.  I can't remember where though.
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2014-04-26T15:25:01Z stassats`: |3b|: yes
2014-04-26T15:25:12Z stassats`: you need to create restarts, link them, etc.
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2014-04-26T15:26:06Z |3b|: ok
2014-04-26T15:26:36Z beach: Poenikatu: Actually, there is a file-browser.lisp in the Guided-Tour directory.
2014-04-26T15:27:05Z Poenikatu: beach: I'll check it out
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2014-04-26T15:48:41Z leo2007: from onlisp, this - http://bpaste.net/show/237383 - isn't tail-recursive, right?
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2014-04-26T15:51:47Z nyef: leo2007: Why wouldn't it be?
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2014-04-26T15:52:02Z stassats`: it conses up the result
2014-04-26T15:52:43Z ggole: Two of the rec calls are tail calls, the other isn't.
2014-04-26T15:53:07Z nyef: Ah, yes. I see the non-tail-position call now.
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2014-04-26T15:53:28Z leo2007: so why not write it like this http://bpaste.net/show/237390
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2014-04-26T15:54:14Z leo2007: exactly, I was just confused by a tail-recursive looking function.
2014-04-26T15:56:14Z stassats`: because somewhat tail-recursive is still more efficient than not tail recursive at all
2014-04-26T15:56:37Z stassats`: even better would be to use some iteration construct
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2014-04-26T16:06:01Z ivan-kanis: is there some documentation on the key mapping of the Open Genera emulator for Linux?
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2014-04-26T16:06:30Z Alfr: Wouldn't you still need height(tree) stack space to traverse a tree built using conses?...
2014-04-26T16:06:34Z leo2007: ivan-kanis: you have one running?
2014-04-26T16:06:36Z H4ns: ivan-kanis: Show X Keyboard Mapping
2014-04-26T16:06:51Z ivan-kanis: leo2007: yes
2014-04-26T16:07:22Z ivan-kanis: H4ns: cool, thanks
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2014-04-26T16:10:40Z leo2007: does it run on kvm?
2014-04-26T16:12:28Z H4ns: it runs on linux
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2014-04-26T16:12:38Z ivan-kanis: I am using VirtualBox, I don't see why it wouldn't run on kvm
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2014-04-26T16:15:54Z leo2007: ivan-kanis: how did you install it?
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2014-04-26T16:25:29Z leo2007: ivan-kanis: do you use something like this https://github.com/ynniv/opengenera
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2014-04-26T16:34:17Z ivan-kanis: leo2007: that link wasted me a day ;)
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2014-04-26T16:37:21Z leo2007: does it help?
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2014-04-26T18:49:57Z Borbus: Where does TERPRI get its name?
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2014-04-26T18:50:20Z H4ns: TERminate PRInt is my not so well edicated guess
2014-04-26T18:51:25Z Borbus: Ah I guess doing a newline is like printing that line...
2014-04-26T18:51:56Z Borbus: Quite a funny function name for CL though
2014-04-26T18:52:18Z H4ns: how is it more funny than, say, CADR?
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2014-04-26T18:52:59Z Borbus: It's not more funny than that, but it is more funny than FRESH-LINE
2014-04-26T18:53:19Z Borbus: I guess it's an "old" name like CAR,CDR etc.
2014-04-26T18:53:24Z H4ns: it is.
2014-04-26T18:53:48Z stassats`: i like it better than terminate-print
2014-04-26T18:53:52Z H4ns: it is from the time when an identifier could not be longer than 6 characters.
2014-04-26T18:54:08Z _death: how about HAULONG and HAIPART? too bad they're not in CL :)
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2014-04-26T18:58:12Z DarkLinkXXXX: #lisp, oh #lisp, please reply! Which lisp do you use the most, and why?
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2014-04-26T19:06:37Z _death: 'Tis simple to answer, darklink my dear... look at the topic and all shall be clear
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2014-04-26T19:09:46Z DarkLinkXXXX: _death, Sorry, my choice of question was mistaken. I should have asked "which implementation".
2014-04-26T19:09:59Z macdice: i read somewhere that the 6 character limit came from storing symbol names in one 36 bit word of the ibm 704.  6 bits per character
2014-04-26T19:10:02Z DarkLinkXXXX wasn't gonna continue this madness, but this is fun!
2014-04-26T19:11:36Z macdice: IBM 'alphamerics' encoding
2014-04-26T19:12:34Z _death: DarkLink: I use SBCL.. works well on Linux and it's the one I know best
2014-04-26T19:13:05Z Shinmera: DarkLinkXXXX: SBCL is quite swell. And while it is the choice for me, I suppose a lot would agree.
2014-04-26T19:13:10Z DarkLinkXXXX: _death, Yeah, I've heard good things about that.
2014-04-26T19:13:40Z _death: DarkLink: on Windows I used CLISP some years ago.. and later on CCL
2014-04-26T19:13:49Z macdice: +1 for sbcl
2014-04-26T19:14:25Z DarkLinkXXXX: And I suppose ecl is best for embedded platforms?
2014-04-26T19:14:47Z oGMo: CCL also builds to ARM now
2014-04-26T19:15:01Z rszeno: sbcl, +1
2014-04-26T19:15:11Z oGMo: probably can't get binaries as small as ECL, but performance might be better
2014-04-26T19:17:02Z stassats`: e in ecl means emeddable, not embedded, though it might work well for both
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2014-04-26T19:17:14Z stassats`: embeddable as in embedded in other programs
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2014-04-26T19:18:41Z DarkLinkXXXX: Oh, my mistake. I'm wondering if lisp for embedded systems (such as a single board microcontroller) would be practical.
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2014-04-26T19:19:58Z macdice: also fortran used to have 6 character identifiers for the same reason.  you could have longer identifiers, but the characters after the first six were ignored!  a source of bugs
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2014-04-26T19:54:16Z pjb: Posterdati:
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2014-04-26T19:57:59Z Posterdati: pjb:
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2014-04-26T21:04:26Z oleo: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142307
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2014-04-26T21:07:05Z pjb: oleo: is there a question?
2014-04-26T21:07:26Z oleo: not yet.....
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2014-04-26T21:08:26Z pjb: import and export take a list designator.
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2014-04-26T21:09:06Z oleo: you mean i could have (map nil ....)'ed them too ?
2014-04-26T21:09:21Z oleo: or was that to me or not ?
2014-04-26T21:09:22Z oleo: huh
2014-04-26T21:09:25Z oleo: uhuh
2014-04-26T21:09:26Z pjb: (export '(a b c))  (import '(p:a p:b p:c))
2014-04-26T21:09:46Z oleo: ya i think i made it longer than needed.....
2014-04-26T21:10:33Z pjb: (multiple-value-bind (se mi ho da mo ye) (decode-universal-time  (get-universal-time)) (format t "~&~4,'0D-~2,'0D-~2,'0D ~2,'0D:~2,'0D:~2,'0D~%" ye mo da ho mi se)) prints: 2014-04-26 23:06:36
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2014-04-26T21:12:22Z pjb: You don't need to call values when you pass arguments, since only the first one will be passed anyways.
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2014-04-26T21:12:43Z pjb: (equal (values (read-from-string value nil nil :start 1 :end 2)) 'x) == (char= #\x (aref value 1))
2014-04-26T21:14:16Z Bike: i almost, but not quite, want to know what kind of thought process is behind (values (sleep 0.01) (clim...) (sleep 0.01))
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2014-04-26T21:17:00Z pjb: You want nil the result of (clim…) and nil as three different values? :-)
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2014-04-26T21:17:46Z oleo: jep saw the question about read-from-string in nick-levine's page....
2014-04-26T21:17:56Z oleo: it was just 2 parms missing...
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2014-04-26T21:17:57Z pjb: Notice how you can use values in place of progn (if you don't care for toplevelness, and for less than call-argument-limit expressions).  Perhaps progn was broken?
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2014-04-26T21:19:59Z oleo: if you want to provide :start :end i meant.....
2014-04-26T21:20:43Z pjb: oleo: this is what your style (using those read-from-string) makes me think of: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_7ojVm806c
2014-04-26T21:21:09Z Bike: christ, what's even going on with all that bin->hex shit
2014-04-26T21:21:22Z oleo: that's flawed....
2014-04-26T21:21:25Z oleo: but didn't correct yet....
2014-04-26T21:22:27Z Bike: i don't even want to think about those but can you just do (write-to-string (parse-integer foo :radix m) :base n)
2014-04-26T21:23:16Z stassats`: some people think that there are several flavours of integer numbers
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2014-04-26T21:24:21Z oleo: i'll consider multiple solutions anways....
2014-04-26T21:24:34Z pjb: Watch the youtube, it's funny ;-)
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2014-04-26T21:25:28Z Bike: oleo's code does generally induce a feeling of falling to my death
2014-04-26T21:25:43Z pjb: The title is "Fallen Art".
2014-04-26T21:25:57Z stassats`: Xach: when a component is not found during quickloading, it only suggest me to give up, but not to retry
2014-04-26T21:26:56Z stassats`: causing me to restart an already long process when i correct it
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2014-04-26T21:32:53Z oleo: lol
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2014-04-26T21:37:15Z oleo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pY1_HrhwaXU
2014-04-26T21:37:32Z oleo: bwaaaahahahaha
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2014-04-26T21:38:24Z oleo: that made me moan really....
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2014-04-26T21:56:34Z rak[1]: OK, so something has bothered me for a long time. Unfortunately, so long that I have forgotten much of my efforts, but today the issue tangles my mind and so I feel it appropriate to ask #lisp. This question is mostly on theory and therefor maybe meaningless. Anyhow; Some time ago I wrote a LISP interpreter using on the 7 primitives + defun. However to no avail could I implement a higher order function like (mapcar). Again, it has been a long time 
2014-04-26T21:58:37Z rak[1]: I know I should be retackling this problem, to better re-explain my efforts and my roadblocks; but I figured the thoughts were ailing me here and now and so I just put the question down.
2014-04-26T21:59:11Z Bike: was there supposed to be more message after "Again, it has been a long time"?
2014-04-26T21:59:44Z rak[1]: err
2014-04-26T22:00:34Z ggole: You want to figure out how to write interpreters?
2014-04-26T22:00:36Z rak[1]: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=e76wiHWG
2014-04-26T22:00:54Z rak[1]: I wrote an interpreter, maybe 2 years back now.
2014-04-26T22:00:54Z ggole: Go read something like http://cs.brown.edu/~sk/Publications/Books/ProgLangs/2007-04-26/
2014-04-26T22:01:19Z Bike: (defun mapcar (function list) (if (null list) nil (cons (funcall function (car list)) (mapcar function (cdr list))))
2014-04-26T22:01:23Z nydel: i wonder if you mean you had trouble implementing #'mapcar, or if you mean more that you had trouble implementing either #'lambda or special forms
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2014-04-26T22:01:37Z nydel: because mapcar is pretty straightforward
2014-04-26T22:01:49Z rak[1]: However, after I wrote the interpreter; I was hoping to then implement so standard functions within the interpreter itself.
2014-04-26T22:02:02Z rak[1]: I expected mapcar to be straight forward, but it wasn't.
2014-04-26T22:02:15Z Bike: i just gave you a oneliner, for the one list case
2014-04-26T22:02:38Z stassats`: funcall is not primitive! multiple-value-call to the rescue
2014-04-26T22:02:44Z rak[1]: I guess I was curious if my interpreter was lacking some functionality that was necessary to having it work correctly.
2014-04-26T22:03:01Z rak[1]: Bike: let me see if i can dig up my interpreter and run that, thanks.
2014-04-26T22:03:02Z pjb: (defun funcall (f &rest args) (apply f args)); apply is primitive.
2014-04-26T22:03:03Z nydel: Bike's def is sound, not just because he's Bike, i evaluated it
2014-04-26T22:03:49Z rak[1]: nydel: that was my thoughts in the past, thinking that maybe i needed #'lambda or some special primitive form to have it function as expected
2014-04-26T22:04:05Z pjb: What were your 7 primitives?
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2014-04-26T22:04:47Z rak[1]: pjb: i don't think i had apply being a primite, was my thoughts at the issue
2014-04-26T22:05:02Z nydel: atom quote eq car cdr cons cond lambda label & uh
2014-04-26T22:05:13Z Bike: oh is this that thing with paul graham
2014-04-26T22:05:41Z rak[1]: pjb: car cdr cons quote errr my network card keeps overheating :/
2014-04-26T22:05:42Z pjb: You need to implement apply.
2014-04-26T22:05:57Z nydel: apply, thank you pjb
2014-04-26T22:05:59Z Bike: yeah it ain't lisp without apply.
2014-04-26T22:06:03Z pjb: apply is called from eval.
2014-04-26T22:06:39Z rak[1]: i think i had an apply in the code that wrote the interpreter, but it wasn't visible to the interpreter itself
2014-04-26T22:07:10Z rak[1]: the primitives i had were; car, cdr, cons, eq, atom, quote, cond
2014-04-26T22:07:21Z rak[1]: and then i had defun
2014-04-26T22:08:27Z rak[1]: it was part of a school project at the time, but i would like to go back to it for personal education sake.
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2014-04-26T22:09:18Z nydel: did you use c rak[1] ?
2014-04-26T22:09:29Z rak[1]: no, so please don't hit me.
2014-04-26T22:09:35Z rak[1]: i used... ... java.
2014-04-26T22:09:49Z rak[1]: it was a language i was familiar with at the time.
2014-04-26T22:10:22Z rak[1]: though i do want to reimplement it in C and then hopefully AVR assembly as I want to experiment running lisp for microcontroller code.
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2014-04-26T22:10:53Z rak[1]: which is probably a bad idea due to lack for memory, though a man can dream.
2014-04-26T22:11:05Z nydel: java's fine, nobody's going to hit you, this is to learn theory not replace sbcl
2014-04-26T22:11:16Z rak[1]: nydel: :)
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2014-04-26T22:14:04Z nydel: if you can find your source i'd love to see it. or if you revisit it from scratch even
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2014-04-26T22:16:13Z nydel: hah just stumbled onto these "why ruby is an acceptible lisp" and "lisp is not an acceptible lisp" articles while searching about subject of primitives
2014-04-26T22:16:41Z rak[1]: nydel: heh! i was looking at the lisp is not an acceptable lisp article today :D
2014-04-26T22:16:48Z pjb: there's a lot of bullshit about lisp over the web.
2014-04-26T22:16:58Z rak[1]: ^^ :D
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2014-04-26T22:17:04Z rak[1]: truest statement ever said.
2014-04-26T22:17:23Z nydel: it's the easiest and most fashionable target
2014-04-26T22:17:33Z ggole: s/about lisp//
2014-04-26T22:17:42Z ggole: But yes, it does seem to attract fluff
2014-04-26T22:17:54Z rak[1]: nydel: i have found the original source.
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2014-04-26T22:19:34Z rak[1]: though it might not be a bad idea revisiting it from scratch; as it was some time ago =P
2014-04-26T22:20:32Z nydel: from the ruby article, "ruby is a denser functional language than lisp" ... how does one even respond to such a statement.
2014-04-26T22:21:19Z rak[1]: nydel: wave and smile
2014-04-26T22:21:20Z pjb: One does not respond to statements.  Only questions are to be answered.
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2014-04-26T22:22:32Z ggole: Point them at APL.
2014-04-26T22:23:37Z nyef: pjb: So... treat it with the contempt it deserves?
2014-04-26T22:24:08Z pjb: There are several meaning to the word "dense".
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2014-04-26T22:25:07Z nyef: One of which has a sense equivalent to "thick as two short planks".
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2014-04-26T22:25:47Z nydel: according to the author "a dense language lets you say things concisely, without obfuscation."
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2014-04-26T22:26:39Z pjb: Yes, but out of context, it means "ruby is dumber than lisp". :-)
2014-04-26T22:27:05Z nydel: oh. hah. i missed that initially
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2014-04-26T22:28:18Z rak[1]: pjb: so i am becoming certain it comes down to not being able to call apply; the function Bike gave for mapcar was dependent upon funcall, which you have shown is dependent upon apply.
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2014-04-26T22:30:41Z nydel: hah http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2006/04/lisp-is-not-acceptable-lisp.html in case anyone wants to have a look at that one. "problem 4: macros" is particularly mind-boggling.
2014-04-26T22:31:54Z nyef: It's been a while since I read that article.
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2014-04-26T22:32:55Z nyef: Problem 2 is a nice red herring. "Worthless Spec", compared with what? The Perl spec?
2014-04-26T22:32:57Z nydel: me too i just happened on it right now
2014-04-26T22:33:06Z Shinmera-: iirc it's mostly "I don't like these things, someone please fix them for me"
2014-04-26T22:33:09Z nyef: Where's the GUI spec for C?
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2014-04-26T22:34:53Z nydel: behind the proprietary scenes probably as far as this kind of person is concerned and that's just fine
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2014-04-26T22:35:00Z nyef: Macro hygiene? As soon as you have it, you try to break it. '(foo) to (quote foo)? Umm.. no.
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2014-04-26T22:36:20Z nydel: hygiene is the oddest word choice there. and frankly the idea that lisp would be criticized for its macro system would've never occured to me.
2014-04-26T22:36:36Z Bike: well, having both kind of makes sense, i guess. i know rust does that.
2014-04-26T22:36:47Z nyef: It's the traditional word for the design choice.
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2014-04-26T22:39:37Z Bike: it would be nice to know what hygeine is for. i mean, i've never wanted it, personally, but it seems to come up all the time...
2014-04-26T22:40:36Z oleo: about stuff leaking.....
2014-04-26T22:40:37Z nydel: i'm guessing the method used to write this article was to search giggle or bong for lisp + disadvantages then list them with a "oh no i didn't, oh yes i did" thrown in for style every 4th sentence or so
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2014-04-26T22:46:53Z nydel: is there a very good interface to qt at the moment? none of what i've seen seems to work and may be dated. but i'd rather use qt than tcl/tk or gtk (both of which work pretty easily with choice of system & cffi)
2014-04-26T22:47:40Z Shinmera: CommonQT works just fine
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2014-04-26T22:56:45Z pjb: rak[1]: you don't need apply to implement your interpreter. You need TO IMPLEMENT apply yourself!
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2014-04-26T22:59:05Z rak[1]: pjb: in terms of the "primitives" ?
2014-04-26T22:59:11Z pjb: rak[1]: notably, you don't need to apply functions you define with defun or lambda in your implementation language, you need to apply functions defined in your implemented language.
2014-04-26T22:59:43Z pjb: Yes, you won't be able to define apply in your implemented language.  You will have to write it as a primitive, in the implementation language.
2014-04-26T22:59:51Z rak[1]: hrm, give me a second; that sentence is a tad confusing.
2014-04-26T22:59:58Z rak[1]: OK
2014-04-26T23:00:05Z rak[1]: that is straight forward; thank you
2014-04-26T23:00:32Z pjb: yes, as a primitive of your implemented language.
2014-04-26T23:00:41Z rak[1]: and i actually have an apply in the intemplentation language; it just isn't visible as a callable function in the interpreter
2014-04-26T23:00:55Z pjb: Yes.
2014-04-26T23:01:04Z rak[1]: ah makes sense.
2014-04-26T23:01:09Z rak[1]: i knew, my
2014-04-26T23:01:19Z rak[1]: "primitives" were lacking something.
2014-04-26T23:01:26Z pjb: However, you could make a recursive call from the interpreter to your interpreter, to interpret a function that you wrote in the implemented language.
2014-04-26T23:01:45Z pjb: Forget about "primitive", this doesn't make much sense.
2014-04-26T23:01:51Z rak[1]: sure.
2014-04-26T23:01:53Z pjb: Consider the implementation language, and the implemented language.
2014-04-26T23:02:18Z pjb: You have programs written in the  implementation language  that will interpret programs written in the  implemented language.
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2014-04-26T23:02:51Z rak[1]: for me primitve is what needs to be dfined in the implementation language and visible to the implemented language, as to "non-primitives" are something that can be defined in the implemented language
2014-04-26T23:03:04Z pjb: ok.
2014-04-26T23:03:12Z pjb: Then apply will be a primitive.
2014-04-26T23:03:18Z rak[1]: OK great thanks.
2014-04-26T23:03:33Z rak[1]: i look forward to revisiting my program.
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2014-04-26T23:04:54Z rak[1]: nydel: http://paste.lisp.org/+31T0 << the original source
2014-04-26T23:05:23Z rak[1]: its 4 java classes and a Makefile
2014-04-26T23:05:35Z rak[1]: circa 2012
2014-04-26T23:05:37Z pjb: Well using a different language as implementation language than implemented language makes it even clearer.
2014-04-26T23:05:49Z rak[1]: pjb: aye.
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2014-04-26T23:06:41Z rak[1]: also, small note; this was for a class of which part of the requirements were CAPS/alphanumerics only
2014-04-26T23:08:03Z pjb: What do you mean?
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2014-04-26T23:08:39Z rak[1]: i mean the tokenizer will get very angry if you say (cons 1 2)
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2014-04-26T23:08:55Z rak[1]: (CONS 1 2) is however quite valid
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2014-04-26T23:09:37Z pjb: In some fonts, upper case letters are very nice looking.
2014-04-26T23:09:59Z rak[1]: also, you have to say (PLUS 1 2) as (+ 1 2) is invalid
2014-04-26T23:10:07Z pjb: You could also show off your program with http://www.secretgeometry.com/apps/cathode/
2014-04-26T23:10:22Z pjb: In old lisps, that's what we had indeed.
2014-04-26T23:11:02Z rak[1]: probably the reason for the requirements of the class project.
2014-04-26T23:11:27Z rak[1]: one of the first things i started working on after the class was over was to accept lowercase characters and symbols;
2014-04-26T23:11:35Z pjb: As a teacher, I would introduce such random silly requirements with no consequences, just to train students to the real life.
2014-04-26T23:11:59Z rak[1]: then i started tweaking a few other things and eventually broke the machine and haven't looked back at it for some time; hence why i posted the 'original' source from the class
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2014-04-26T23:12:55Z rak[1]: pjb: as far as programming goes, adding those requirements was easy, just annoying when you try to actually write code in the interpreter
2014-04-26T23:13:05Z rak[1]: as who these days even has a usable CAPS key?
2014-04-26T23:14:38Z pjb: Just write it in lower case, and tr a-z A-Z the source files when you: make source-release
2014-04-26T23:14:42Z nyef: I do. I tried to remap capslock to backspace once, but I didn't end up using it.
2014-04-26T23:14:55Z pjb: M-x caps-mode RET
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2014-04-26T23:21:14Z rak[1]: nyef: i know a lot of people that map CAPS to CTRL. i for a while had it mapped to TAB and had TAB mapped to BACKSPACE and BACKSPACE mapped to ESC
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2014-04-26T23:22:50Z rak[1]: pjb: aye that makes sense, but the issue was that my basic interpreter didn't have a (LOAD) function. and its readline didn't allow for multiple-line input
2014-04-26T23:23:09Z rak[1]: which i suppose i could have tr'd the \ns to space
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2014-04-26T23:36:52Z pjb: rak[1]: the point is that you have to distinguish the requirements set by the customer, from your needs as a programmer.  It's not because the customer wants a straightjacket that you have to wear it all the time during development.  You just need to test it, and once tested, you remove it, and put it back into the release
2014-04-26T23:36:54Z pjb: .
2014-04-26T23:38:18Z rak[1]: aye makes sense.
2014-04-26T23:38:26Z rak[1]: i was a really new programmer at the time i wrote that
2014-04-26T23:38:36Z pjb: There's a reason why you shouldn't use literals all over the code.  You can have one set of constants while developing, and another for the release.  (defconstant *spaces* #+developnig #(#\space #\tab #\newline) #-developing #(#\space))
2014-04-26T23:38:56Z rak[1]: and i understand the needs for requirements and such. i finally figured all that out during my schooling and didn't mind it too much.
2014-04-26T23:39:21Z rak[1]: ah i see. makes good sense.
2014-04-26T23:39:46Z rak[1]: at the time, being new and such; and being limited in time as a student; i coded directly for requirements
2014-04-26T23:39:56Z pjb: Well, s/defconstant/defparameter/ here…
2014-04-26T23:40:29Z rak[1]: anyhow, i really need to get to the rock gym before it closes.
2014-04-26T23:40:48Z pjb: One thing that non-programmers don't understand, is that (setf x (abs y))  is simplier than (if (< y 0) (setf x (- y)) (setf x y)).
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2014-04-26T23:41:30Z rak[rock-gym]: pjb: heh. lisp 'hacks' are fun.
2014-04-26T23:41:31Z pjb: Of course, often they tell you as specifications (if (< y 0) (setf x (- y)) (setf x y)), and don't give you enough time to realize that it's just (setf x (abs y)), so you will produce bad programs, hard to maintain.
2014-04-26T23:42:14Z rak[rock-gym]: makes sense. though 'simplification' of a program is usually my last thought when trying to "get it done"
2014-04-26T23:42:29Z pjb: But if you take the time to abstract specifications, you can often produce programs that are small, clear, concise and easy to maintain.  The specifications are just "configurations" for those programs.
2014-04-26T23:42:41Z rak[rock-gym]: i see.
2014-04-26T23:42:54Z rak[rock-gym]: time is my enemy, i must go defeat it.
2014-04-26T23:43:12Z rak[rock-gym]: (exit)
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2014-04-27T00:05:36Z antonv: hi
2014-04-27T00:05:41Z antonv: any CLISP users here?
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2014-04-27T00:06:36Z antonv: CLISP has optional extension modules, like XLIB, Postrgres client, and so on
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2014-04-27T00:07:31Z antonv: the XLib API module is called CLX
2014-04-27T00:07:40Z antonv: there is also CLX library in Quicklisp
2014-04-27T00:08:03Z antonv: The question: how should one write ASDF systems, which depend on CLX?
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2014-04-27T00:08:51Z antonv: Should we just :depends-on (:clx) ?
2014-04-27T00:09:12Z antonv: Or we would put somethig special here for CLISP?
2014-04-27T00:09:14Z pjb:  #+clisp (require 'clx) (defsystem #-clisp (:clx))
2014-04-27T00:09:36Z antonv: pjb: thanks, that will work
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2014-04-27T00:10:00Z antonv: pjb: how CLISP informs us what modules are available?
2014-04-27T00:10:06Z antonv: pjb: via *features*?
2014-04-27T00:10:13Z pjb: Once they're loaded.
2014-04-27T00:10:27Z pjb: Otherwise I guess you can only do (ignore-errors (require module)).
2014-04-27T00:10:54Z antonv: pjb: there is one complication - CLISP might be build without CLX
2014-04-27T00:11:11Z pjb: of course.
2014-04-27T00:11:24Z pjb:  #+clisp (require 'clx) (defsystem #-xlib (:clx))
2014-04-27T00:11:26Z antonv: pjb: in that case we would like to load :clx from Quicklisp
2014-04-27T00:13:11Z antonv: pjb: I am thinking even to go with (defsystem #-xlib (:clx))
2014-04-27T00:13:42Z antonv: if clx is not loaded, then user the clx version from Quicklisp
2014-04-27T00:14:01Z pjb: There are differences between the clx module and the clx system. You may want to use always the clx system.
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2014-04-27T00:20:04Z antonv: pjb: can I count on the assumption that even it CLISP is build with clx, the clx module is not loaded unless I do (require 'clx) ?
2014-04-27T00:20:29Z pjb: AFAIK, yes.  You can always (delete-package "XLIB") if you're afraid of collisions.
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2014-04-27T02:33:49Z leo2007: in bounding index, is the `end' exclusive?
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2014-04-27T02:36:12Z Bike: yes
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2014-04-27T02:45:17Z leo2007: thanks
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2014-04-27T03:15:09Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2014-04-27T03:26:01Z Denommus: beach: hey
2014-04-27T03:26:09Z p_l: beach: bonjour
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2014-04-27T04:10:40Z leo2007: anything else like `series' i.e. proposed/implemented but wasn't accpeted.
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2014-04-27T04:15:23Z Bike: you can see some in the committee proposals
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2014-04-27T04:25:43Z leo2007: where?
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2014-04-27T04:26:40Z Bike: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/CLHS/Issues/I_Categ.htm
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2014-04-27T05:59:20Z beach: I take advantage of the relative silence to say that I added a few more pages to http://metamodular.com/POSIX-API/posix-api.html and in particular to the low-level interface.  Comments and contributions welcome as usual.
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2014-04-27T06:13:07Z |3b|: beach: are you sure OPEN flags will always be a fixnum?
2014-04-27T06:13:38Z |3b|: particularly on something like 32 bit clisp, which i think has 24bit fixnums
2014-04-27T06:14:07Z p_l: yeah
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2014-04-27T06:14:43Z p_l: also, POSIX declares flags to be int, without specifying length
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2014-04-27T06:14:51Z p_l: so you need to be ready for full-word flags
2014-04-27T06:14:59Z |3b| supposes it is unlikely to be able to open more than fixnum file descriptors even on clisp though
2014-04-27T06:15:33Z |3b|: well, maybe with 32 bit clisp on a 64 bit system if you configure it oddly enough
2014-04-27T06:15:53Z |3b| probably wouldn't worry about that case though
2014-04-27T06:15:58Z p_l: |3b|: fd1=open(); fd2=open(); close(fd1); fd1=open() <--- do that in a loop?
2014-04-27T06:16:22Z |3b|: p_l: his open is specified to return lowest unused descriptor
2014-04-27T06:16:28Z |3b|: and close makes it reusable
2014-04-27T06:16:48Z p_l: ... right
2014-04-27T06:16:52Z p_l: I skipped over that line
2014-04-27T06:17:03Z p_l: so long as the OS implements POSIX properly, it's fine
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2014-04-27T06:18:54Z p_l: ... I will have to test some implementation on MVS
2014-04-27T06:19:02Z p_l: CLISP or ECL should run
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2014-04-27T06:21:24Z |3b|: beach: encoding problems or something in http://metamodular.com/POSIX-API/Low/o-noctty.html
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2014-04-27T06:27:22Z |3b|: beach: and same thing copied into the table in http://metamodular.com/POSIX-API/Low/open.html
2014-04-27T06:28:14Z beach: |3b|: No, I am not sure flags will always be fixnums.  Not sure what to do about it though, because the point of the low-level interface is efficiency.
2014-04-27T06:28:16Z |3b|: beach: the OPEN page also has a bunch of FOO_BAR that should probably be +foo-bar+, in particularly the O_FOO ones that could actually link to existing pages
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2014-04-27T06:31:44Z |3b|: i'd probably just say 'integer' and rely on specific implementations to optimize it if it actually could be too big for a fixnum
2014-04-27T06:31:58Z p_l: beach: boxed bitfield?
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2014-04-27T06:32:34Z beach: |3b|: Fixed the encoding problem.
2014-04-27T06:33:32Z beach: |3b|: OK, I think you are right that using an integer won't be a problem.
2014-04-27T06:34:23Z |3b|: http://metamodular.com/POSIX-API/Low/o-direct.html says "see NOTES below" with no NOTES
2014-04-27T06:34:44Z |3b|: same in table in OPEN
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2014-04-27T06:36:50Z |3b|: in the description of +o-excl+ "symbolic links are not followed" seems unclear, that sounds like it might ignore symlinks in the path too, not just the specific filename
2014-04-27T06:38:49Z beach: |3b|: Fixed the O_XXX problems.  Leaving the others until I have a page for them.
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2014-04-27T06:43:26Z |3b|: http://metamodular.com/POSIX-API/Low/o-largefile.html seems a bit platform specific, not sure if a lisp API would need it? even if so, the stuff about header files and C macros probably doesn't belong
2014-04-27T06:43:55Z p_l: |3b|: largefile is a mess
2014-04-27T06:44:28Z |3b|: yeah, but presumably we don't want to copy someone else's mess
2014-04-27T06:44:44Z p_l: that one *will* require a C runtime code with damn headers, unless you want to depend on low-level nonposix APIs
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2014-04-27T06:45:03Z |3b| thought this was just going direct to syscalls?
2014-04-27T06:45:14Z beach: |3b|: Added Notes section (thereby introducing more O_XXX problems which I will fix later).
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2014-04-27T06:46:31Z p_l: |3b|: there's no lseek64 syscall on linux. nor llseek. nor 64bit lseek, AFAIK
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2014-04-27T06:46:58Z p_l: |3b|: or to be specific, there's llseek which is normally unexported and in C shows as _llseek
2014-04-27T06:47:28Z p_l: some weird mess there caused partially by glibc, I think
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2014-04-27T06:48:38Z beach: |3b|: Not sure what to do about the "symbolic links are not followed" problem.  Maybe submit an issue and I'll think about it.
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2014-04-27T06:49:42Z beach: |3b|: The text is taken directly from the man 2 pages.  True, there might be things that are irrelevant in there, but that's pretty hard to decide.
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2014-04-27T06:49:55Z leo2007: Bike: thanks
2014-04-27T06:50:24Z |3b|: http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/009695399/functions/open.html says "path names a symbolic link, open() shall fail and set errno to [EEXIST], regardless of the contents of the symbolic link." which seems clearer
2014-04-27T06:50:43Z p_l: beach: just in case, get yourself POSIX set of manpages if you didn't yet (1p, 2p, 3p, etc.)
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2014-04-27T06:52:27Z |3b|: yeah, for best results would probably want to look at posix, linux, bsd, maybe some others
2014-04-27T06:53:06Z |3b|: would be nice to have notes about platform specific behavior, as long as it was clearly marked as such
2014-04-27T06:54:12Z p_l: well, one of the platform specific behaviours is that apparently lseek syscall doesn't exist on linux
2014-04-27T06:54:42Z p_l is getting lost in interpreting the mess of glibc headers
2014-04-27T06:54:47Z p_l: or something
2014-04-27T06:54:52Z p_l: someone nuke glibc
2014-04-27T06:55:03Z p_l bails out
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2014-04-27T06:56:09Z |3b|: beach: +o-ordwr+ should be +o-rdwr+ in OPEN / errors / +eisdir+ table entry?
2014-04-27T06:56:33Z |3b|: and in the URL it links to
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2014-04-27T06:58:07Z quazi: hay hay
2014-04-27T07:00:18Z beach: |3b|: Thanks for the reference to opengroup.  I'll have a look.
2014-04-27T07:00:29Z beach: p_l: Good idea to get POSIX man pages.
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2014-04-27T07:00:46Z |3b| doesn't know the status of those particular pages, just first thing google found
2014-04-27T07:00:50Z zRecursive: Build the newest ECL error: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142312
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2014-04-27T07:03:27Z beach: |3b|: Fixed the +o-ordwr+ typo.  Thanks.
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2014-04-27T07:05:22Z beach: quazi: Hello.  Are you new here or do you just have a new nick?
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2014-04-27T07:05:57Z |3b|: in http://metamodular.com/POSIX-API/Low/read.html  the bit at the bottom should probably be resolved if the lisp layer has control over it, or effective-count needs to allow negative numbers
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2014-04-27T07:06:55Z |3b|: actually, it isn't clear what effective-count returns in general
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2014-04-27T07:07:57Z beach: |3b|: OK, I'll see what I can do to fix it.  I think return values must be allowed to be negative in general.
2014-04-27T07:08:18Z beach: It's a general problem with several pages.
2014-04-27T07:09:18Z |3b|: might also want to specify interaction (or lack of) with fill pointers in READ as well
2014-04-27T07:09:35Z beach: Oh, good point.  Definitely!
2014-04-27T07:11:12Z |3b|: are start and end actual fixnums, or 'bounding index designators'? guessing the former, not sure if that needs extra clarification or not
2014-04-27T07:11:49Z beach: In the low-level interface, they are fixnums.
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2014-04-27T07:14:18Z |3b|: in http://metamodular.com/POSIX-API/Low/dup2.html i'd say "be a copy" rather than "be the copy"
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2014-04-27T07:14:46Z beach: Will fix in a few minutes.  Thanks!
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2014-04-27T07:15:51Z |3b|: same page, "fails and is not close" -> "fails and /copy/ is not closed"
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2014-04-27T07:19:37Z |3b|: might be more explicit that READ and WRITE start at offset START in VECTOR, rather than END - START just being a verbose ay of specifying a count of elements to read/write
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2014-04-27T07:20:05Z quazi: i am a bit confused re. CLOS. I have a generic function "explode"  and for a "party" class i want :most-specific-last but for "volcano" class i dont. its contrived, but i dont understand how you can group two same name methods that are so absolutely different under one umbrella defgeneric?
2014-04-27T07:21:33Z Bike: most-specific-last is a property of the generic, not methods
2014-04-27T07:21:37Z Bike: so... yes.
2014-04-27T07:21:51Z |3b|: beach: in http://metamodular.com/POSIX-API/Low/write.html , "less that count bytes" should be "less than /end/ - /start/ bytes" or "fewer bytes than specified", same for "less than count if" earlier in that paragraph
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2014-04-27T07:22:12Z Bike: well "yes" doesn't make sense. point is you can't do that.
2014-04-27T07:22:36Z quazi: beont that affect how the combinations are formed for the different classes?
2014-04-27T07:22:44Z Bike: "beont"?
2014-04-27T07:22:49Z |3b|: also, WRITE page has a bulleted list for errors while other pages have a table
2014-04-27T07:23:06Z quazi: typo on iphone, i meant 'wont'
2014-04-27T07:23:23Z Bike: Won't what, exactly, affect the combinations?
2014-04-27T07:23:45Z |3b|: quazi: if the methods are "absolutely different" they should probably be different generic functions
2014-04-27T07:25:07Z |3b|: methods are what are ordered most or least specific
2014-04-27T07:25:12Z quazi: damn iphone. ok lets try another example, when i define the arguments on the defgeneric wont all methods with the same name also have to be declare with those same arguments?
2014-04-27T07:25:22Z Bike: Up to congruence, yes
2014-04-27T07:25:38Z |3b|: methods don't "have the same name", they are methods of that generic function
2014-04-27T07:25:47Z Bike: generics are not arbitrary combinations of completely different functions that happen to have the same name
2014-04-27T07:26:24Z |3b|: defmethod modifies the generic function to add methods for specific combinations of arguments
2014-04-27T07:26:31Z quazi: ok, so then ive misunderstood, can i define two generics with the same name but for totally different purposes?
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2014-04-27T07:26:46Z |3b|: you can't define 2 generics with the same name
2014-04-27T07:27:09Z |3b|: they are named by symbols in CL, not just text
2014-04-27T07:27:25Z |3b|: you can have 2 generic functions named by symbols with the same name, as long as they aren't the same name
2014-04-27T07:27:46Z |3b|: so you could have gatherings:explode and geology:explode as separate generic functions
2014-04-27T07:28:16Z |3b|: note both are named by symbols, not the string "explode"
2014-04-27T07:28:27Z quazi: 3b ok thats basicaaly what i am asking, just no idea how
2014-04-27T07:29:07Z quazi: i didnt see any way to do that so far in the gigamonkeys book so i was naturally curious
2014-04-27T07:29:13Z |3b|: beach: in write, "before any data was write" -> "before any data was written"
2014-04-27T07:30:22Z |3b|: beach: write page links to http://metamodular.com/POSIX-API/Low/+o-direct+.html , shouldn't have the ++ in the URL
2014-04-27T07:30:44Z quazi: ohhhh i see it now
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2014-04-27T07:31:08Z quazi: <- silly guy
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2014-04-27T07:32:34Z beach: |3b|: Fixed dup2 problems.
2014-04-27T07:32:36Z quazi: so i could do a defgeneric draw on shape, defmethod on shape circle, then also defgeneric draw on circle right
2014-04-27T07:32:49Z Bike: not if "draw" is the same symbol every time
2014-04-27T07:33:01Z Bike: because, like |3b| just said, you can't have two generics with the same name.
2014-04-27T07:33:13Z |3b|: defgeneric defines the function, defmethod defines specific behavior of that function for specific classes
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2014-04-27T07:34:31Z |3b|: so "draw" on shapes is a single concept regardless of the shape, so it is reasonable to be a single generic function
2014-04-27T07:34:51Z |3b|: so you would define methods for anything you want to be able to draw
2014-04-27T07:34:57Z quazi: 3b are you sayin that youd actually use the symbol 'gathering:explode'
2014-04-27T07:35:11Z Bike: : indicates a package.
2014-04-27T07:35:18Z Bike: maybe you should read farther in PCL.
2014-04-27T07:35:36Z |3b|: if you haven't gotten to symbols and packages, probably should read more and come back to it
2014-04-27T07:35:46Z |3b|: (if you have, go back and reread it :)
2014-04-27T07:36:12Z quazi: 3b yeah i forget and have to come back to things
2014-04-27T07:36:16Z |3b|: quazi: do you know how to program in any other languages?
2014-04-27T07:36:21Z beach: |3b|: Fixed the COUNT problem in write.html.
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2014-04-27T07:36:48Z |3b|: beach: there were 2 in that paragraph
2014-04-27T07:37:16Z quazi: yeah a lot of ruby recently
2014-04-27T07:37:36Z quazi: and emacs lisp
2014-04-27T07:37:56Z quazi: <3 ruby
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2014-04-27T07:38:13Z |3b|: ok, something that isn't obvious about CL that can be confusing is you are used to other languages, is that it isn't defined in terms of text like most languages
2014-04-27T07:38:25Z quazi: im just not sure where to draw
2014-04-27T07:38:46Z |3b|: CL specifies a process for converting the source text into lisp objects, then specifies evaluation/compilation in terms of those objects
2014-04-27T07:38:48Z quazi: then lines, traditional classes make wrappin things up easy
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2014-04-27T07:39:49Z beach: |3b|: Fixed the other occurrence of COUNT, and the grammar problem.
2014-04-27T07:40:57Z |3b|: so when you write the text (defun foo ()), it first READs that sequence of characters into a list of 3 elements, the symbol CL:DEFUN, the symbol FOO in the current package, and the empty list ()
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2014-04-27T07:41:54Z quazi: sorry for the bad typing, using an ipjone honestly makes things hard. I guess my mind was thinking 'how can String.add and Fooclass.add exist in CLOS if both are very different' now you say packages, so i guess l beed to learn where to package
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2014-04-27T07:42:10Z |3b|: lets say the current package is BAR, so the symbol read was BAR:FOO
2014-04-27T07:42:16Z |3b|: then it evaluates that list, which causes it to define a function named by the symbol BAR::FOO
2014-04-27T07:42:20Z Bike: lisp programs don't usually do the thing where you have totally different functions with the same name.
2014-04-27T07:42:34Z Bike: i mean, with add, maybe there's some commonality there, like they only take one argument, the thing to add.
2014-04-27T07:42:48Z |3b|: if you changed packages to BAZ, and READ the same text, you would get a function named BAZ::FOO
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2014-04-27T07:43:44Z |3b|: the symbols BAR::FOO and BAZ::FOO both have the same name "FOO", but they are not the same symbol, unless you explicitly defined the packaged to share the symbol (simplified a bit)
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2014-04-27T07:44:31Z |3b|: quazi: CL doesn't have "String.add" and "Fooclass,.add", generic functions do not belong to classes
2014-04-27T07:45:09Z quazi: i kinda wish defgeneric could do something snazzy internally to be able to use the same name on many generic functions that deal with different classes
2014-04-27T07:45:22Z |3b|: PACKAGE in CL is a mapping from text like "FOO" to symbol objects like BAR::FOO, some languages might call that a "namespace" or similar
2014-04-27T07:45:40Z |3b|: defgeneric defines /one/ generic function
2014-04-27T07:45:50Z |3b|: that generic function has methods
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2014-04-27T07:46:49Z quazi: ok well i guess the functiona need to be more verbose
2014-04-27T07:47:03Z quazi: defgenric add-foo
2014-04-27T07:47:05Z |3b|: each method says what to do with a specific combination of arguments, for example you could specify methods for ADD to add 2 strings, add a string and fooclass, add a fooclass and string, add 2 fooclass, etc
2014-04-27T07:47:33Z |3b|: no, the function specifies what you are trying to do
2014-04-27T07:47:44Z |3b|: you want to add 2 things
2014-04-27T07:48:05Z |3b|: methods say which classes of things you can add
2014-04-27T07:48:27Z quazi: i read that once you explicitly specify arguments in the defgeneric you cant change it in the mehods?
2014-04-27T07:48:30Z beach: |3b|: Fixed the ++ in the URL.
2014-04-27T07:48:59Z |3b|: right, a generic is 1 function, so it has 1 valid argument list
2014-04-27T07:49:17Z Bike: up to congruence.
2014-04-27T07:49:19Z |3b|: (though that argument list can combine keywords from multiple methods)
2014-04-27T07:51:06Z quazi: ok thanks for the help so far. ill read some more, do some more testin and come back to it
2014-04-27T07:52:51Z |3b|: beach: also, the stuff about alignment restrictions under errors in WRITE should probably be looked into... if it is actually an issue on some platforms, it should be documented in the main description and probably have some way to determine it at runtime
2014-04-27T07:53:34Z beach: |3b|: OK, thanks.  I'll keep it in mind and think about it.
2014-04-27T07:53:49Z |3b|: beach: also, in WRITE errors: "specified in by" -> "specified by"
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2014-04-27T07:55:07Z |3b|: http://metamodular.com/POSIX-API/Low/rlimit-fsize.html links to low-write.html instead of write.html, same for truncate
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2014-04-27T07:55:38Z |3b|: and write does same thing with setrlimit
2014-04-27T07:56:33Z beach: Thanks.
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2014-04-27T07:57:58Z beach: I guess this is enough work on the POSIX interface for today.  I didn't expect so much feedback.  Thank you very much.  If anybody feels like contributing, I will be happy to add them to contributors.  The sources are here: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Closix
2014-04-27T07:59:28Z |3b|: eacces.html is missing an s
2014-04-27T07:59:43Z |3b| will stop then, i should probably be doing other things anyway :)
2014-04-27T08:00:47Z beach: Yeah, good plan :)
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2014-04-27T08:00:51Z beach: Thanks a lot.
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2014-04-27T10:51:17Z attila_lendvai: anyone with mkcl experience? how do I compile a proper repl from it? make just produces an mkcl_min which seems to be pretty disfunctional...
2014-04-27T10:52:06Z stassats: ecl compiles ecl_min first from c, then loads all the lisp files
2014-04-27T10:52:29Z stassats: but it's all a part of make
2014-04-27T10:52:49Z attila_lendvai: hrm, maybe it broke halfway... lemme double ckeck
2014-04-27T10:54:09Z attila_lendvai: seems fully built, or at least I don't see errors
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2014-04-27T11:20:21Z attila_lendvai: there's a separate bin... I'll extend the readme from 0 lines to 5 and issue a pull request
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2014-04-27T11:53:39Z axion: what is an efficient way to cons an element to an alist only if it doesn't already exist?
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2014-04-27T12:02:32Z stassats: (pushnew pair alist :key #'car)
2014-04-27T12:03:27Z axion: how does that compare with :test 'equal in terms of performance?
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2014-04-27T12:09:25Z stassats: if the difference matters to you, then you're using the wrong data-structure
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2014-04-27T12:10:49Z axion: i'm performing many http requests with drakma, adjusting drakma:*text-content-types*
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2014-04-27T12:32:55Z genkinodenki: I'm trying to call a function in a haskell shared object file from SBCL, but don't know how to init the runtime environment, other than hs_init and possibly hs_add_root being involved.  can anyone help?
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2014-04-27T13:18:00Z devon: Haskell?  No clue.  When you work it out, please do tell!
2014-04-27T13:18:11Z genkinodenki: I shall
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2014-04-27T15:22:33Z leo2007: I need to use both series and cl-ppcre in the same package but they both export `split' and `scan'. In the package I want split and scan inherit from series. how to achieve this?
2014-04-27T15:23:00Z |3b|: clhs defpackage
2014-04-27T15:23:00Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defpkg.htm
2014-04-27T15:23:13Z |3b|: :shadowing-import-from ?
2014-04-27T15:23:43Z leo2007: Yes, I have been playing with it and `shadow' with no success
2014-04-27T15:26:18Z |3b|: (:shadowing-import-from :series :split :scan) ?
2014-04-27T15:26:51Z |3b|: and (:use :series :cl-ppcre)
2014-04-27T15:27:18Z |3b| usually only imports specific symbols from specific packages rather than :use though
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2014-04-27T15:30:03Z leo2007: |3b|: seems what I need. is there a function corresponds to :shadowing-import-from?
2014-04-27T15:30:16Z |3b|: clhs shadowing-import
2014-04-27T15:30:16Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_shdw_i.htm
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2014-04-27T15:52:49Z leo2007: |3b|: thanks for the information. I need to read through this more carefully because I haven't got it to work the way I need.
2014-04-27T15:54:02Z leo2007: I tried (shadowing-import '(series:split series:scan) :my-pkg) in my init.lisp but it complained `series' not found.
2014-04-27T15:54:38Z |3b|: any packaged you import from need to exist first
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2014-04-27T16:03:12Z leo2007: I have asdf:load-system before using it.
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2014-04-27T16:08:28Z |3b|: packages also need to exist before you READ symbols from them
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2014-04-27T17:03:03Z genkinodenki: I get  "Unhandled memory fault at #x10. [Condition of type SB-SYS:MEMORY-FAULT-ERROR]"  on calling foreign function.  what all could possibly be wrong?
2014-04-27T17:04:25Z genkinodenki: SBCL 1.0.55-r1 calling a shared object compiled by GHC
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2014-04-27T17:15:06Z |3b|: could be bad function pointer, bad FFI definitions, bad code being called, etc
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2014-04-27T17:17:06Z joshe: I don't know anything about GHC, but I'd expect trouble when trying to mix code from two different managed languages in one process
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2014-04-27T17:19:06Z |3b| wouldn't expect any more than when mixing it with C
2014-04-27T17:19:13Z genkinodenki: it may just be bad code, I wouldn't know.  a C function worked fine, not so smooth with haskell so far.  oh well.
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2014-04-27T17:20:11Z |3b|: though mixing with C can be pretty messy if you need to deal with control going in both directions
2014-04-27T17:22:20Z genkinodenki: don't know about that side, I'm probably willing and able to control everything from lisp.  I just got the idea of making physics engine with haskell
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2014-04-27T17:24:46Z |3b| suspects you would lose most of the benefits of either language
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2014-04-27T17:34:56Z genkinodenki: hmm
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2014-04-27T17:37:40Z genkinodenki: I'm expecting that to some degree.  I wanted to do everything in lisp originally but haskell intrigues me and considering some of its characteristics it could fit the problem set well.  then again it would be interesting to implement laziness from lisp's side.  but I'm not really sure how to formulate "pure functions".  I don't really know what's going on in haskell tbh
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2014-04-27T17:40:24Z genkinodenki: and I want to try go for functional style.  I'm just not sure yet how I would implement haskell-style 'variable' bindings in CL
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2014-04-27T17:41:26Z genkinodenki: to avoid value assignment
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2014-04-27T17:52:55Z Bike: what's to implement? just don't setf them
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2014-04-27T18:04:22Z genkinodenki: but I have to keep track of state somehow, and I guess with lazy languages the state is in a cache which requires management from the compiler / interpreter
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2014-04-27T18:04:54Z genkinodenki: or I have misunderstood something
2014-04-27T18:04:58Z Bike: ...no?
2014-04-27T18:05:08Z Bike: you can pass the state along in a variable, for one. look at state monads
2014-04-27T18:05:24Z genkinodenki: hmm
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2014-04-27T18:08:06Z genkinodenki: I admit I'm scared of monads so I never even considered trying to write something like that in CL :D
2014-04-27T18:10:18Z Bike: you should probably not try to do something based on ignorance and fashion
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2014-04-27T18:13:07Z genkinodenki: I don't care about fashion, only what intrigues me.  I don't mind ignorance, I have all the time in the world.
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2014-04-27T18:13:52Z genkinodenki: I want to "get it all".
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2014-04-27T18:14:08Z genkinodenki: even if I don't get anything done, I'll be moving somewhere
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2014-04-27T18:14:45Z genkinodenki: reading about CL monad macros now
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2014-04-27T21:02:35Z dim: how to simple (with-open-file (s *standard-input* ...) ...)?
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2014-04-27T21:03:28Z Bike: What?
2014-04-27T21:03:43Z dim: maybe I should provide for my own with-open-file that would know about being called with *standard-input* sometimes
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2014-04-27T21:07:25Z nyef: I'd ask what you're really trying to do, but I suspect that it would melt my brain.
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2014-04-27T21:13:06Z dim: well it's in pgloader, where I allow user to enter commands that I parse, and they have the option to read from a file or from stdin
2014-04-27T21:13:35Z dim: in the internals of the code I deal with either a filename or *standard-input* and was naive enough to thing that with-open-file wouldn't care
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2014-04-27T21:13:38Z dim: it does...
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2014-04-27T21:15:40Z Xach: dim: you could use with-open-stream, and wrap *standard-input* if necessary to prevent it from closing.
2014-04-27T21:15:43Z nyef: Have you considered WITH-OPEN-STREAM and (if (streamp x) x (open x ...))?
2014-04-27T21:15:59Z nyef: Oh, right, forgot about the closing bit for a second...
2014-04-27T21:16:03Z Xach: http://lisptips.com/post/12364147536/a-concatenated-stream-trick
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2014-04-27T21:16:49Z dim: I still have to conditionnaly use with-open-file or *standard-input* right?
2014-04-27T21:17:57Z dim: I just made myself a small with-open-file-or-stdin macro that process :stdin as (let ((stream *standard-input*)) ,@body) and generates the with-open-file form otherwise
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2014-04-27T21:18:28Z dim: my understanding is that with-open-stream is another way to write about the same macro, maybe in a cleaner way, using streamp rather than eq :stdin, right?
2014-04-27T21:19:06Z ampharmex: given 7 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 5 6 7 3 4 2 4 5 8 7 = 476 Goal: find out what mathematical operators (minus, multiply, divide, add) satisfy that solution (476)
2014-04-27T21:19:07Z ampharmex: Order of operation is variable.
2014-04-27T21:19:21Z Bike: don't just paste your homework problems, please
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2014-04-27T21:19:41Z pjb: dim: my understanding is that your understanding is still flaky, about the difference between files and streams.  There are two chapters in clhs, it's for a reason.
2014-04-27T21:19:44Z ampharmex: Bike, It is not, it is a problem I have created.
2014-04-27T21:19:51Z Bike: uhhuh
2014-04-27T21:20:06Z ampharmex: Bike, I am still going to explain, how I want to go about it.
2014-04-27T21:20:32Z pjb: dim: if *standard-input* was bound to a file-stream, you could use (with-open-file (pathname *standard-input* :direction :input) …) but sometimes there are exclusive access locks.
2014-04-27T21:20:34Z heddwch: Did I join #mathpuzzles? o_o
2014-04-27T21:20:34Z minion: heddwch, memo from pjb: Connor, what the hell is happening? Who's in charge there?
2014-04-27T21:20:36Z dim: pjb: it might be true, but I'm arrogant enough to just think I missed that with-open-file isn't about magic
2014-04-27T21:20:40Z ampharmex: Okay so I want to utilize this algorithm: dp[i][j][k] = Can I make the number k using the numbers a[i ... j]. (dynamic programming)
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2014-04-27T21:21:08Z pjb: dim: you're not making any sense.
2014-04-27T21:21:13Z ampharmex: If I want to make X with the numbers A[i ... j], then I find a position v such that A[i ... v - 1] can make Y, A[v ... j] can make Y', and either Y + Y', Y * Y', Y - Y', or Y / Y' is equal to X.
2014-04-27T21:21:20Z pjb: dim: *standard-input* is bound to a stream, not a pathname!
2014-04-27T21:21:26Z ampharmex: That is how you compute A[i][j][X].
2014-04-27T21:21:38Z ampharmex: If you want to find some sequence that does, then in A[i][j][X] you store the position at which you split (v) and the operator you chose.
2014-04-27T21:21:55Z pjb: ampharmex: wrong channel. Try ##c perhaps?
2014-04-27T21:22:17Z ampharmex: pjb, This has nothing to do with C. (it is just an algorithm)
2014-04-27T21:22:33Z ampharmex: _Every_ expression that you can form using the numbers in A[i ... j] is of the form (Y) op (Y'), where Y is an expression obtained from A[i ... v - 1], Y' is an expression obtained from A[v ... j], and op is either +, -, *, or /.
2014-04-27T21:22:45Z pjb: (aref i j x) (split v)
2014-04-27T21:22:55Z ampharmex: If I'm trying to find several, I'll store the several v, but that (since the number of answers is already exponential) will be exponential in space and time.
2014-04-27T21:22:59Z pjb: (aref a i j x) (split v)
2014-04-27T21:23:15Z dim: pjb: yeah, that I knew.
2014-04-27T21:23:16Z ampharmex: Also note, no in-between floats need be considered.
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2014-04-27T21:24:37Z dim: and now I have a classic macro problem I fail to remember how to solve
2014-04-27T21:24:58Z ampharmex: So my question is, how could this particular problem be solved via dynamic programming in common lisp, utilizing my algorithm?
2014-04-27T21:25:14Z heddwch: Yes.
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2014-04-27T21:25:49Z dim: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142315 --- I want to evaluate filename-or-stream in the typecase construct, but I'd rather not produce the typecase expression as the result of the macro
2014-04-27T21:25:56Z dim: maybe I should just do that, tho
2014-04-27T21:27:32Z pjb: ampharmex: do you need it for all (i j)?
2014-04-27T21:28:14Z ampharmex: pjb, yes
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2014-04-27T21:29:39Z pjb: Then it seems to me that you should build it from the bottom up, since to compute (a i j k) you need (a i v x) and (a v j x).
2014-04-27T21:30:10Z pjb: (a i (1- v) x) and (a v j x).
2014-04-27T21:32:49Z ampharmex: pjb, This is the problem: given 7 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 5 6 7 3 4 2 4 5 8 7 = 476 Goal: find out what mathematical operators (minus, multiply, divide, add) satisfy that solution (476)
2014-04-27T21:32:54Z ampharmex: Order of operation is variable
2014-04-27T21:33:34Z pjb: So you don't need to compute it for all (i j)!  It's a search problem.
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2014-04-27T21:34:25Z ampharmex: Sure, but your bounds are pretty bad, because your heuristics are not good.
2014-04-27T21:34:37Z ampharmex: Specifically, given A[i..j] the maximum value is the product of the elements there.
2014-04-27T21:34:48Z ampharmex: The minimum is not easy to find.
2014-04-27T21:35:00Z ampharmex: You could also bound it by the negative of the product, if you want. This is again a poor heuristic.
2014-04-27T21:35:22Z pjb: Yes, you may have to do your brute force search.
2014-04-27T21:35:52Z ampharmex: You can just use: dp[i][j][k] = Can I make the number k using the numbers a[i ... j].
2014-04-27T21:36:32Z ampharmex: I already have a solution in Haskell, just not a dynamic one.
2014-04-27T21:36:48Z ampharmex: Uses naive bruteforce.
2014-04-27T21:37:37Z ampharmex: Just curious as to how one would do this in common lisp.
2014-04-27T21:38:01Z pjb: As you said, if you start from the top, adding constraints, you get very complex constraints.  I feel like they don't add much information…..
2014-04-27T21:40:34Z nyef: Question one: Is the important bit an examination of the problem, or the solution? Question two: Is the runtime of the brute-force solution low enough that you would get an answer soon enough to be of use? Could you spend the time you would spend trying to find a more clever solution more usefully?
2014-04-27T21:41:38Z ampharmex: nyef, pjb, http://pastebin.com/mdUxv9hB
2014-04-27T21:42:02Z ampharmex: I do not like this solution so much, I think the dynamic programming approach may be more optimal.
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2014-04-27T21:42:30Z nyef: Black on dark green syntax-highlighting. Lovely combination, almost unreadable.
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2014-04-27T21:43:02Z heddwch: I rather enjoy that color scheme
2014-04-27T21:43:07Z heddwch: Oh wait, dark green, no
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2014-04-27T21:44:31Z nyef: Yeah, shows up as a green block, and then I get eyestrain trying to actually focus on the characters within.
2014-04-27T21:44:42Z heddwch: yea, that's horrible
2014-04-27T21:44:50Z nyef: Even the mustard-yellow on white isn't nearly as low-contrast.
2014-04-27T21:45:03Z nyef: (Though it's not great, either.)
2014-04-27T21:45:50Z nyef: On the upside, it didn't crash my web browser, which is an improvement over some of the times I've tried to open a pastebin of one sort or another.
2014-04-27T21:47:02Z ampharmex: Heh, at least there have been no Haskell complaints yet :P
2014-04-27T21:47:08Z nyef: I sortof lose track of what's going on after the last "instance show".
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2014-04-27T21:49:04Z nyef: Don't get me wrong, if this were C++, I'd have bitched already, but Haskell, while I'm substantially unfamiliar with it, is at least somewhat a reasonable choice for a programming language to use as an example around here.
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2014-04-27T21:53:11Z nyef: Right, I give up. One of these days I might spend some time actually trying to learn Haskell, but today is not that day.
2014-04-27T21:53:19Z nyef: Tomorrow isn't looking too likely, either.
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2014-04-27T21:54:39Z dim: I think I will teach myself scheme soon enough, racket looks packed with nice features in core
2014-04-27T21:54:57Z dim: goal: teaching programming to the kids by writing (console) games together
2014-04-27T21:55:14Z pjb: Then why racket? It's a GUI IDE!  Use mit-scheme.
2014-04-27T21:55:19Z dim: I'd like doing that with CL but I'm not sure about fighting with cl-charms on RPi and all
2014-04-27T21:55:28Z ampharmex: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=hkK8z89m (some of the output of the haskell program)
2014-04-27T21:55:40Z dim: pjb: I think you can use racket from the CLI and Emacs
2014-04-27T21:55:46Z nyef is having enough trouble fighting SBCL on RPi, let alone any specific libraries.
2014-04-27T21:56:54Z dim: pjb: http://docs.racket-lang.org/guide/Emacs.html
2014-04-27T21:58:49Z dim: anyways, time to call it a day here, gn lispers!
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2014-04-27T22:04:58Z ampharmex: pjb, You having any luck in lisp?
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2014-04-27T22:16:58Z pjb: ampharmex: I'm not implementing it, looks rather complex indeed.
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2014-04-28T00:39:59Z pillton: Xach: What will your vacation involve?
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2014-04-28T00:46:03Z jumper_: Do any of you know if progn is a keyword in sbcl
2014-04-28T00:46:28Z Bike: okay, i want you to read the link i just gave you in #sbcl, and reconsider your question
2014-04-28T00:46:50Z pjb: jumper_: (keywordp 'progn) --> nil
2014-04-28T00:46:54Z pjb: jumper_: seems not to be.
2014-04-28T00:46:56Z jumper_: Sounds like a plan
2014-04-28T00:46:59Z jumper_: thank you
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2014-04-28T00:47:46Z heddwch: May I have a copy of that link?
2014-04-28T00:47:57Z Bike: it was just section 2 of the clhs
2014-04-28T00:48:00Z Bike: "syntax"
2014-04-28T00:48:07Z heddwch: Ahh, okay heh
2014-04-28T00:49:24Z Bike: since jumper_ seems to have something like C language keywords in mind, and there's nothing usefully analogous in CL
2014-04-28T00:50:02Z heddwch: Special operators.. sort of.. but not really
2014-04-28T00:50:41Z pjb: jumper_: see 11.1.2.1.2
2014-04-28T00:50:47Z pjb: clhs 11.1.2.1.2
2014-04-28T00:50:47Z specbot: Constraints on the COMMON-LISP Package for Conforming Programs: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/11_abab.htm
2014-04-28T00:51:04Z pjb: this is the "'keyword'" section of CL.
2014-04-28T00:51:33Z heddwch: Oh, I see his logic now. I was working from the other end.
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2014-04-28T00:53:08Z jumper_: Looking at 11.1.2.1.2 pjb
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2014-04-28T01:02:13Z jumper_: Correction I meant symbol not keyword/token, but Im still reading...
2014-04-28T01:02:38Z heddwch: Oh, I... thought I understood..
2014-04-28T01:02:58Z pjb: jumper_: then that's what I said. (keywordp 'progn) --> nil
2014-04-28T01:03:23Z pjb: jumper_: and: (symbolp 'progn) --> t
2014-04-28T01:03:31Z jumper_: Is keywordp a function to test keywords?
2014-04-28T01:03:42Z heddwch: No, it's a keyword to test asian children.
2014-04-28T01:03:46Z oGMo: jumper_: do you know what a keyword is in common lisp?
2014-04-28T01:03:48Z heddwch: er, function* not keyword
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2014-04-28T01:04:14Z pjb: clhs keywordp
2014-04-28T01:04:14Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_kwdp.htm
2014-04-28T01:04:18Z pjb: it's called a predicate.
2014-04-28T01:04:33Z pjb: clhs keyword
2014-04-28T01:04:34Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_kwd.htm
2014-04-28T01:04:45Z pjb: notice how keyword is a subtype of symbol.
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2014-04-28T01:05:18Z jumper_: ok
2014-04-28T01:05:56Z heddwch: Can I spoil it? Please please
2014-04-28T01:06:21Z jumper_: go for it.
2014-04-28T01:06:32Z heddwch: heh
2014-04-28T01:06:45Z heddwch: A keyword is a symbol in the keyword package =p That's it.
2014-04-28T01:07:06Z Quadrescence: no, that's not it
2014-04-28T01:07:09Z heddwch: No?
2014-04-28T01:07:28Z Quadrescence: well, depends. that is not sufficient to describe what a keyword is by the lisp standard
2014-04-28T01:07:36Z pjb: AFAIK, nothing prevents an implementation to export from CL keywords.
2014-04-28T01:07:53Z pjb: So (keyword 'cl:progn) could return T, AFAIK.
2014-04-28T01:08:00Z pjb: in a conforming implementation.
2014-04-28T01:08:23Z pjb: Ah, no, it couldn't because of the constant variable binding, which is forbidden.
2014-04-28T01:08:26Z pjb: Good!
2014-04-28T01:08:30Z heddwch: Quadrescence: I should've said "TL;DR version:" as a prefix rather than "That's it" as a suffix. I was mostly just meaning to make a joke out of how long this.. conversation about one concept has gone on.
2014-04-28T01:08:44Z Quadrescence: yes
2014-04-28T01:08:58Z Quadrescence: im just following pjb's example
2014-04-28T01:09:01Z heddwch: haha
2014-04-28T01:09:11Z oGMo: pjb: the keyword would still need to be interned in KEYWORD, even if something else exports it
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2014-04-28T01:09:51Z oGMo: and its symbol-package would still be keyword
2014-04-28T01:10:00Z oGMo: Quadrescence: and yes that IS enough to describe it :p
2014-04-28T01:10:18Z Quadrescence: oGMo, No, it's not. That sufficient to define the keyword predicate.
2014-04-28T01:10:24Z oGMo: and the type
2014-04-28T01:10:35Z pjb: So indeed, (notany 'keywordp (list-external-symbols "CL")) --> t
2014-04-28T01:10:56Z oGMo: and what else in CL are you referring to as "a keyword"?
2014-04-28T01:10:58Z Quadrescence: oGMo, saying that a keyword has a predicate does not imply that keyword is a CL type
2014-04-28T01:11:00Z pjb: oGMo: of course, hence it would have a constant variable binding, and this is forbidden.
2014-04-28T01:11:00Z jumper_: Is there a superset to symbol?
2014-04-28T01:11:05Z pjb: T
2014-04-28T01:11:10Z pjb: clhs symbol
2014-04-28T01:11:11Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_symbol.htm
2014-04-28T01:11:19Z oGMo: Quadrescence: it does, because it returns T if it's a keyword; and if it's a keyword it must be interned in KEYWORD
2014-04-28T01:11:26Z oGMo: Quadrescence: see the link above
2014-04-28T01:11:37Z Quadrescence: oGMo, No it doesn't imply that. Why isn't there a type for even numbers in CL?
2014-04-28T01:11:41Z Quadrescence: Even numbers have a predicate.
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2014-04-28T01:12:17Z Quadrescence: (just to be clear, we are at a point of pedantry now, not anything useful or constructive)
2014-04-28T01:12:25Z oGMo: Quadrescence: so, provide a link to a keyword in CL being anything other than a symbol interned in KEYWORD
2014-04-28T01:12:30Z Bike: sigh
2014-04-28T01:12:50Z pjb: Quadrescence: because you can easily define it: (deftype even-integer () '(satisfies evenp))
2014-04-28T01:13:03Z heddwch: Aaand this is why we're so popular :D
2014-04-28T01:13:12Z Quadrescence: pjb, Of course. But if KEYWORDP was provided, you could easily say (satisfies 'keywordp)
2014-04-28T01:13:23Z Quadrescence: (and it is provided of course)
2014-04-28T01:13:39Z pjb: (typep :hello 'keyword) --> t
2014-04-28T01:13:46Z Quadrescence: So I am positing that the notion of a keyword in CL requires more than just a predicate, but also a type definition
2014-04-28T01:13:59Z Quadrescence: which may of course use the predicate if it wishes to
2014-04-28T01:14:03Z oGMo: that's not pedantry, it's bullshittery heh
2014-04-28T01:14:13Z pjb: yes, the later.
2014-04-28T01:14:17Z heddwch: haha
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2014-04-28T01:14:40Z Quadrescence: pjb, The latter to what, oGMo's or my statement? :)
2014-04-28T01:14:47Z pjb: oGMo's.
2014-04-28T01:14:51Z Quadrescence: ha
2014-04-28T01:15:11Z Quadrescence: Bullshit in what way? That it's false or just superfluous?
2014-04-28T01:15:13Z Quadrescence: (or neither?)
2014-04-28T01:15:14Z pjb: keywords are just symbols interned in the KEYWORD packages and that are therefore automatically constantly bound to themselves.
2014-04-28T01:15:36Z pjb: You can write deftype keyword and keywordp using the package system,
2014-04-28T01:15:37Z pjb: .
2014-04-28T01:16:23Z Quadrescence: pjb, And, implicitly, keywords must have (typep x 'keyword). Do you disagree?
2014-04-28T01:16:27Z heddwch: Which I doubt the original questioner would do.
2014-04-28T01:17:25Z jumper_: What about parentheses what would they be considered? Symbol, keyword...
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2014-04-28T01:17:49Z heddwch: syntax
2014-04-28T01:18:15Z Quadrescence: You might argue that the above is just a property of the type KEYWORD. But I claim it is also a property of the elements of the keyword type, which is extremely tautological, and I can't imagine anyone disagreeing.
2014-04-28T01:18:36Z Quadrescence: As such, I don't think what I said is bullshit whatsoever.
2014-04-28T01:19:34Z Bike: i think it's bullshit because you're doing this in the middle of a noob asking basic syntax questions, how about that
2014-04-28T01:19:51Z heddwch: ^
2014-04-28T01:20:18Z pjb: Quadrescence: yes, (deftype keyword () '(satisfies keywordp))
2014-04-28T01:20:28Z Quadrescence: Bike, Maybe, that's fine. But I don't want it to be called bullshit because it's incorrect or wrong.
2014-04-28T01:20:37Z Bike: it's morally wrong, sinner
2014-04-28T01:20:37Z Quadrescence: imprecise or wrong*
2014-04-28T01:20:39Z pjb: jumper_: the problem is that you cannot say "what about parentheses" like that.
2014-04-28T01:20:41Z jumper_: I wish I could debate about this, but you are right Bike. I want you to know though I got to the root of the question's answer. Thank you so much :D
2014-04-28T01:20:55Z Bike: repent!
2014-04-28T01:20:56Z pjb: jumper_: "(" this is a string containing a parenthese character #\(
2014-04-28T01:21:07Z jumper_: Also thank you pjb!
2014-04-28T01:21:10Z Quadrescence: Bike, And I didn't join here to "morally answer questions" about Lisp.
2014-04-28T01:21:32Z heddwch: You joined here to debate the exact philosophical implications of keywords?
2014-04-28T01:21:33Z pjb: jumper_: in the standard *readtable*, there's a standard reader macro bound to the reader macro character #\( that reads lists (similar to read-delimited-list, but not exactly).
2014-04-28T01:21:50Z Quadrescence: heddwch, It's not at all philosophical. It is defined by the Common Lisp standard.
2014-04-28T01:22:15Z pjb: jumper_: there is no parenthesis in the source code: (car '(progn (print 'hi) 3)) --> progn
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2014-04-28T01:22:30Z pjb: jumper_: parentheses are only used in the textual serialization of source lisp code.
2014-04-28T01:22:53Z pjb: jumper_: source lisp code is a data structure made of cons cells and other lisp objects. We call it a s-exp, a Symbolic Expression.
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2014-04-28T01:23:49Z heddwch: When it jumps from shit that matters in the current discussion to a lengthy exact definition, I call it philosophy.
2014-04-28T01:24:16Z zRecursive: Can symbol join computation ?
2014-04-28T01:24:17Z heddwch: That might be wrong, and I'm okay with that, but it only took 1.25 lines
2014-04-28T01:25:01Z Quadrescence: heddwch, I am not concerned with your definition of philosophy when it comes to Lisp. Be like Bike and just call it bullshit if you'd like. But it's not philosophy.
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2014-04-28T01:25:16Z heddwch: Okay, that's bullshit.
2014-04-28T01:25:23Z Quadrescence: Okay. :)
2014-04-28T01:25:28Z heddwch: haha
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2014-04-28T01:26:21Z zRecursive: IIRC, the symbol is an #S(...), right ?
2014-04-28T01:26:30Z pjb: Nope.
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2014-04-28T01:26:39Z pjb: It's implementation dependant.
2014-04-28T01:26:43Z pjb: It's a symbol.
2014-04-28T01:27:21Z zRecursive: ok
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2014-04-28T01:27:56Z pjb: Early LISP used just lists to implement symbols.
2014-04-28T01:28:10Z pjb: That's where the symbol-plist comes from.
2014-04-28T01:28:29Z Quadrescence: pjb, And lists of symbols to implement strings!
2014-04-28T01:28:42Z zRecursive: symbol behaves like a structure ?
2014-04-28T01:28:45Z Quadrescence: (and lists of digits to implement numbers!)
2014-04-28T01:28:59Z pjb: Quadrescence: indeed.
2014-04-28T01:29:07Z Quadrescence: zRecursive, a symbol is an opaque type which could conceivably implemented by a structure.
2014-04-28T01:29:09Z Quadrescence: It's just that.
2014-04-28T01:29:13Z pjb: But not lists of digits: the 7090 processors had integers and floating point numbers.
2014-04-28T01:29:27Z Quadrescence: pjb, They did, at least according to Gosper.
2014-04-28T01:29:34Z Quadrescence: (bignums in particular)
2014-04-28T01:29:36Z pjb: for bignums, but this came later.
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2014-04-28T01:29:44Z zRecursive: Quadrescence: ok
2014-04-28T01:30:13Z Quadrescence: pjb, I guess I should be precise. Maybe this wasn't a Lisp feature and maybe was just a feature of some programs written in Lisp.
2014-04-28T01:30:30Z Quadrescence: pjb, I heard of some instances of individual bits stored in a list. :)
2014-04-28T01:30:33Z pjb: of a specific implementation of a feature.
2014-04-28T01:30:38Z jumper_: pjb i understand what you are saying now
2014-04-28T01:30:48Z Quadrescence: bbl
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2014-04-28T01:59:16Z leo2007: which lisp implementation has the most-complete swank support? It seems cmucl and then sbcl.
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2014-04-28T02:22:29Z zRecursive: Isnot swank independend with any CL implementation ?
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2014-04-28T02:22:55Z zRecursive: s/independend/independent
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2014-04-28T02:32:50Z system-x: Is it true a top common lisp developer can make 200 grand a year?
2014-04-28T02:33:10Z katlogic: ocaml or even haskell too
2014-04-28T02:33:12Z katlogic: Damn quants.
2014-04-28T02:33:22Z slyrus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2014-04-28T02:33:42Z zRecursive: system-x: what is "200 grand" ?
2014-04-28T02:33:50Z heddwch: yen
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2014-04-28T02:34:01Z system-x: thousand
2014-04-28T02:34:10Z heddwch: 200,000 yen
2014-04-28T02:34:27Z zRecursive: -> US$ ?
2014-04-28T02:34:51Z system-x: If you guys were to pick a language(s) to work at home from. Which ones would you do?
2014-04-28T02:35:02Z heddwch: VIC-20 basic
2014-04-28T02:35:21Z system-x: what is that
2014-04-28T02:35:30Z heddwch: Nothing =x
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2014-04-28T02:35:52Z heddwch: 200,000¥ = US$1,958.80
2014-04-28T02:35:58Z system-x: I have schizoaffective and I think it would be good for me to work from home doing something
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2014-04-28T02:36:39Z zRecursive: About US$2000 a year ?  seems too little
2014-04-28T02:36:44Z system-x: no
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2014-04-28T02:36:46Z system-x: 200,000.00 :)
2014-04-28T02:37:12Z system-x: I heard an old friedn from EFnet who coded at home doing LISP
2014-04-28T02:37:22Z system-x: he told me once a top LISP programmer could earn 200,000.00 a year
2014-04-28T02:37:43Z katlogic: Because truth is spoken only on EFnet.
2014-04-28T02:37:48Z Zhivago: A top LISP programmer can earn his weight in cocaine.
2014-04-28T02:37:49Z system-x: hahahah
2014-04-28T02:37:55Z system-x: hm
2014-04-28T02:38:10Z system-x: so i'm 340.. lbs... 340 lbs of cooke that's a lot of money lol
2014-04-28T02:38:15Z system-x: *coke
2014-04-28T02:38:19Z ltbarcly quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2014-04-28T02:38:22Z heddwch: It's also a lot of cookies
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2014-04-28T02:38:40Z system-x: Now I'm not some guy who thinks he's just gonna start programming and make lots of money, dont get me wrong
2014-04-28T02:38:44Z system-x: i might be a mental case but I'm still realistic
2014-04-28T02:38:45Z Zhivago: That's the problem with meaningless claims like that.
2014-04-28T02:38:47Z zRecursive: A top LISP programmer donot need much money. because he/she should have owned much money
2014-04-28T02:38:57Z Zhivago: A visual basic programmer can fly a jet fighter.
2014-04-28T02:39:19Z heddwch: Visual Basic programmers usually manage C++ programmers, for a higher salary.
2014-04-28T02:39:48Z system-x: So which languages do you rcommend for a noob? ASM? delphi? python? php? java? c+, c#?
2014-04-28T02:40:03Z zRecursive: that depends
2014-04-28T02:40:05Z katlogic: Totally VIC-20
2014-04-28T02:40:10Z heddwch: ^
2014-04-28T02:40:13Z system-x: I have heard there is one language, that if you learn it well, it works as a blueprint for other languges
2014-04-28T02:40:26Z katlogic: VIC-20 basic, then asm demos.
2014-04-28T02:40:38Z heddwch: A little bit of BF when you get burnt out
2014-04-28T02:40:40Z katlogic: Since the basic there is really limited you're forced to lower level.
2014-04-28T02:40:41Z system-x: Do you recommend code acadmey or code year?
2014-04-28T02:40:58Z zRecursive: You can use CL to fast prototype your projects though
2014-04-28T02:41:20Z katlogic: Also, if you want really simple languages for begginers, with most trivial semantics eva, try https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_lambda_calculus
2014-04-28T02:41:24Z katlogic: its _just_ lambdas :>
2014-04-28T02:41:28Z system-x: I was taught that it is up to me to fulfill my dreams, nobody is stopping me. I decided I want to program
2014-04-28T02:41:34Z system-x: I have been down and out for many years now
2014-04-28T02:41:46Z pspace quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2014-04-28T02:41:50Z system-x: but it's not how many times you get knocked down, it's how many times you get up
2014-04-28T02:41:52Z loke: I'd recommend Unlambda too
2014-04-28T02:41:53Z system-x: I'm down but I"ll never be out
2014-04-28T02:42:21Z heddwch: But you just said you're down and out..
2014-04-28T02:42:28Z system-x: hehe
2014-04-28T02:42:30Z system-x: i minced my words
2014-04-28T02:42:58Z system-x: That would be a good job for me though. code from home. Do you guys work from home?
2014-04-28T02:43:07Z heddwch: The industry standard languages are C++ and Java. University courses tend to start you with Java. That's the simplest answer, I'd guess.
2014-04-28T02:43:25Z system-x: cool. So what is LISP used for now a days?
2014-04-28T02:43:35Z heddwch: Inane arguments, mostly
2014-04-28T02:43:49Z jumper quit (Quit: leaving)
2014-04-28T02:44:15Z katlogic: Tricky slashdot submissions with talking heads ranting that lisp derivatives are not side-effect free enough.
2014-04-28T02:44:25Z heddwch: ^ that too
2014-04-28T02:44:34Z system-x: I don't know if my math is good enough for coding though
2014-04-28T02:44:50Z heddwch: I'd start there, then
2014-04-28T02:44:55Z katlogic: Programming is poor man's math.
2014-04-28T02:45:51Z katlogic: If you can't prove a theorem in math terms, just write a program to brute force the program empirically.
2014-04-28T02:45:55Z katlogic: In that sense, we all failed at math.
2014-04-28T02:46:07Z loke: system-x: You don't need to be good in maths to know programming. You need to be able to do abstract and logical thinking though (which happens to be the same skills you need in ordert o be good in mths)
2014-04-28T02:46:21Z heddwch: o.o loke
2014-04-28T02:46:23Z heddwch: your keyboard
2014-04-28T02:46:33Z katlogic: loke: How do you explain php and js then?
2014-04-28T02:46:35Z system-x: loke: ty
2014-04-28T02:46:36Z loke: Yes. It's a dell keyboard.
2014-04-28T02:46:44Z loke: katlogic: Touche
2014-04-28T02:47:11Z heddwch: Or your hands. I don't know, but something degraded towards the end, and I'm worried about you. :<
2014-04-28T02:47:55Z loke: heddwch: Perhaps I'm turning French or Danish (they always mumble the end of the words :-))
2014-04-28T02:48:00Z heddwch: :D
2014-04-28T02:48:06Z heddwch: Maybe Chilean, we'll have to investigate this.
2014-04-28T02:48:21Z loke: heddwch: Or not. :-)
2014-04-28T02:48:24Z heddwch: That too
2014-04-28T02:49:11Z Zhivago: I think that the key point is understanding computation in non-mechanical terms.
2014-04-28T02:49:28Z zRecursive: Except WIFI, what's the recommended way to surf the internet when using a notebook?
2014-04-28T02:49:51Z heddwch: ...? What?
2014-04-28T02:50:02Z loke: zRecursive: You mean WLAN
2014-04-28T02:50:06Z loke: :-)
2014-04-28T02:50:12Z zRecursive: wireless
2014-04-28T02:50:16Z loke: right
2014-04-28T02:50:48Z heddwch: For some models, you can get a 3G card, for the least packet loss, 10BASEwhateverithas
2014-04-28T02:50:59Z loke: zRecursive: you mean WLAN
2014-04-28T02:51:35Z katlogic: I miss the 90s. You could literally just buy an offline copy of internets on a cd.
2014-04-28T02:51:36Z zRecursive: heddwch: Is "3G card" stable enough ?
2014-04-28T02:51:52Z heddwch: zRecursive: That depends on what you're trying to do. o.o
2014-04-28T02:52:09Z loke: katlogic: Hey, even in the 90's that wasn't possible. I know what you were thinking of and it was a dump of some of the most popular sites.
2014-04-28T02:52:13Z zRecursive: loke: i want to save an old notebook
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2014-04-28T02:52:25Z loke: zRecursive: does it have USB?
2014-04-28T02:52:33Z zRecursive: yeah
2014-04-28T02:52:35Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2014-04-28T02:52:42Z loke: zRecursive: then just use a USB WLAN adapter
2014-04-28T02:52:50Z katlogic: loke: inb4 googles starts selling 1000pb gogogl-discs with offline copies of todays internets.
2014-04-28T02:52:59Z heddwch: heh
2014-04-28T02:53:19Z heddwch: Just fill it with cat pictures, cat videos, and gifs of random crap. Pretty good representation
2014-04-28T02:53:21Z zRecursive: loke: Is "USB WLAN adapter" better than 3G card ?
2014-04-28T02:53:38Z loke: zRecursive: well, different protocols :-)
2014-04-28T02:53:42Z katlogic: Offline copy always better, fuck streaming over wireless.
2014-04-28T02:53:46Z katlogic: UTP or die.
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2014-04-28T02:54:34Z zRecursive googling now, thx
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2014-04-28T02:55:08Z heddwch: Sorry, I was just using "3G card" in the marketing sense, as in that's what they call any cellular modem to sell it to you. More stable than a Belkin router if you have good reception, yea. =p but requires a cellular data plan.
2014-04-28T02:55:31Z Zhivago: Or you could just tether it via your phone.
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2014-04-28T02:55:51Z katlogic: Or use a patchcable.
2014-04-28T02:55:58Z katlogic: See, so many options!
2014-04-28T02:56:02Z heddwch: That too, although at least here in the US, a lot of providers like to block/try to block that functionality/charge you as much as a separate data plan would cost to enable it.
2014-04-28T02:56:10Z katlogic: Nobody suggesting built-in faxmodem in older laptops?
2014-04-28T02:56:20Z pjb: The only good 3G card, is the 3G card programmed in Common Lisp anyways.
2014-04-28T02:56:22Z pjb: Try Movitz!
2014-04-28T02:56:29Z heddwch: katlogic: Actually a reasonable option if you need low latency more than bandwidth.
2014-04-28T02:56:34Z loke: heddwch: I suggest you move to a different country.
2014-04-28T02:56:35Z loke: :-)
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2014-04-28T02:56:48Z heddwch: loke: I'd like to =p
2014-04-28T02:56:54Z loke: heddwch: Why don't you?
2014-04-28T02:56:57Z katlogic: heddwch: In US rural areas, I can imagine.
2014-04-28T02:57:03Z loke: I know lots of USians who moved
2014-04-28T02:57:12Z heddwch: For the moment, I'm poor. It's a long-term plan.
2014-04-28T02:57:24Z katlogic: Either lagged sucky wisp, one-bar super sucky 3g or 14k dialup with neato 15ms latency.
2014-04-28T02:57:27Z pjb: heddwch: cf. http://www.hpcplatform.com/ on how to reduce latency with Common Lisp.
2014-04-28T02:57:37Z heddwch: lol..
2014-04-28T02:57:55Z pjb: system-x: cf. http://www.hpcplatform.com/ on how a lisper can earn more than 200 grands.
2014-04-28T02:58:06Z loke: heddwch: Poor? Doesn't matter. The key is to apply to a job abroad so you have one when you move.
2014-04-28T02:58:07Z leo2007: zRecursive: backends don't implent all features
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2014-04-28T02:58:16Z leo2007: check the warnings on your swank startup.
2014-04-28T02:58:43Z heddwch: loke: Right, but nonetheless the money saved up to get there, credentials to get a job with, and some savings for at least temporary room and board
2014-04-28T02:59:08Z loke: heddwch: How old are you and how many years work experience do you have?
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2014-04-28T02:59:31Z katlogic: loke: You mean white trash expants who went to shitty asian 3rd world country to get waifu & live on cheap?
2014-04-28T02:59:32Z heddwch: 24, and 8, but not in any internationally-marketable field.
2014-04-28T02:59:46Z katlogic loves stereotypical american expats :>
2014-04-28T02:59:55Z loke: When I applied for an overseas job, I got it, and the company payed for the one-way flight as well as a few months of lodging while I was looking for a permament apartment.
2014-04-28T02:59:56Z heddwch loves stereotypical asian waifus
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2014-04-28T03:00:39Z loke: (now I didn't need that lodging, but I had if if I needed to)
2014-04-28T03:01:09Z loke: heddwch: you are a developer now?
2014-04-28T03:01:21Z heddwch: No
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2014-04-28T03:03:31Z katlogic as a dirty eastern european has very vague idea what american job market looks like. I imagine working in US involves um, setting up a twitter account, moving to SF and writting shitty software in node.js.
2014-04-28T03:04:39Z heddwch: Assuming I were a developer, possibly. =p Working in my area of US involves having separate work clothes and sweating rather a lot.
2014-04-28T03:05:08Z loke: I see
2014-04-28T03:05:17Z heddwch: lol
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2014-04-28T03:06:11Z katlogic: Puzzling. If I were to believe recent slashdot feed, entire US population either writes shitty rails/node.js apps in SF, flips burgers or is on welfare.
2014-04-28T03:06:25Z loke: katlogic: or works at walmart
2014-04-28T03:06:27Z heddwch: heh
2014-04-28T03:06:34Z loke: (but that's the same as being on welfare though?)
2014-04-28T03:06:40Z katlogic: loke: Fits the burgerflipper category.
2014-04-28T03:06:45Z loke: fair enough
2014-04-28T03:07:07Z heddwch: Similarly rote work, yea =p I was recently working as a mule to carry parts of travel trailers down a ramp.
2014-04-28T03:07:16Z loke: I've seen plenty of well-paid IT consultants that could also be categorised as working as burger flippers
2014-04-28T03:08:23Z loke: In fact, the mere act of being in this IRC channel would make anyone more qualified than a lot of the people I'm interviewing.
2014-04-28T03:08:43Z katlogic: We hove those here too. However business are getting more increasingly tech savvy. Either their outsource their IT completely to infosys, or they just cut off consultant leeches.
2014-04-28T03:09:23Z heddwch: Mostly the former
2014-04-28T03:10:17Z katlogic: loke: The dark triad of narcisstic job applicants? "PHP, CSS, JS"
2014-04-28T03:10:29Z katlogic: (CSS3 is rule110 turing complete; thus qualifies as a programming language)
2014-04-28T03:10:43Z loke: how is it turing complete?
2014-04-28T03:10:55Z loke: How do you do an infinite loop in it?
2014-04-28T03:11:01Z loke: (or any loop for that matter)
2014-04-28T03:11:13Z heddwch: Write javascript to endlessly generate it
2014-04-28T03:11:17Z katlogic: loke: https://github.com/elitheeli/stupid-machines/blob/master/rule110/rule110-grid.html
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2014-04-28T03:11:49Z loke: Speaking of that. Did you see the turing machine written purely in C macros? (yeah, I had no idea it was turing complete either)
2014-04-28T03:12:04Z katlogic: (it's a cellular automata so it loops forever within its cell set)
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2014-04-28T03:12:33Z katlogic: loke: worse, on #networker on ircnet, we did rule110 using route-map and match cisco configs.
2014-04-28T03:12:54Z heddwch: haha
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2014-04-28T03:15:09Z loke: Found it: https://github.com/orangeduck/CPP_COMPLETE
2014-04-28T03:15:19Z loke: That thing is mindbendingly insane
2014-04-28T03:15:37Z leo2007: what to do to get this example working in ccl: (objc:@selector #/addObject:forKey:)
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2014-04-28T03:17:30Z heddwch: loke: That is just... wrong
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2014-04-28T03:18:01Z loke: heddwch: It's both a thing of beauty and at the same time completely insane :-)
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2014-04-28T03:19:31Z heddwch: Indeed
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2014-04-28T04:18:26Z leo2007: LiamH: there?
2014-04-28T04:23:44Z leo2007: LiamH: I sent you a patch to make gsll load without errors in Mac.
2014-04-28T04:36:19Z pjb: "<loke> In fact, the mere act of being in this IRC channel would make anyone more qualified than a lot of the people I'm interviewing."  Most frightening, for it's true.
2014-04-28T04:39:30Z pjb: leo2007: how doesn't it work?  (objc:@selector #/addObject:forKey:) --> #<A Foreign Pointer #x908EF8A2> ; works perfectly here. (ccl-1.9 on MacOSX 10.7).
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2014-04-28T04:40:15Z loke: pjb: It is, unfortunately, true.
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2014-04-28T04:40:47Z Ryan_Burnside: Hello, having a bit of trouble with Lispbuilder sdl on Linux. Anyone willing to look at my install log?
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2014-04-28T04:41:13Z loke: Ryan_Burnside: Are you using Quicklisp?
2014-04-28T04:41:38Z Ryan_Burnside: No, the tutorial told me to use asdf manager
2014-04-28T04:41:43Z leo2007: pjb: I get a no such package error: ccl::objc on ccl 1.9 on 10.9.2
2014-04-28T04:42:41Z leo2007: lisp-matrix fails to load on ccl 1.9 too due to some reader-syntax-error
2014-04-28T04:43:22Z pjb: There's no package named "CCL::OBJC" indeed.
2014-04-28T04:43:34Z pjb: leo2007: did you (require 'cocoa) ?
2014-04-28T04:43:46Z pjb: Do you have a strange *readtable*?
2014-04-28T04:44:00Z leo2007: no strange *readtable*
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2014-04-28T04:44:15Z leo2007: is (require 'cocoa) necessary?
2014-04-28T04:44:40Z pjb: Perhaps not.  Is there a (require 'objc-bridge) available?
2014-04-28T04:44:55Z leo2007: the lisp-matrix issue: https://github.com/blindglobe/lisp-matrix/issues/3
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2014-04-28T04:46:06Z leo2007: (require 'objc-bridge) also errs (not provided by any function ....)
2014-04-28T04:47:26Z pjb: Then (require 'cocoa) is required.
2014-04-28T04:48:30Z leo2007: hmmm, that loads the cocoa-ide as well.
2014-04-28T04:48:37Z leo2007: I just need to call some objc functions.
2014-04-28T04:50:07Z leo2007: actually I am just porting some function written in python + pyobjc to ccl so that I don't need to reply on python.
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2014-04-28T04:51:33Z leo2007: pjb: (require 'bridge) works.
2014-04-28T04:51:40Z leo2007: objc-bridge is a directory
2014-04-28T04:52:09Z pjb: good.
2014-04-28T04:52:09Z |3b|: leo2007: that reader-syntax-error is probably from the strange quotes at https://github.com/blindglobe/lisp-matrix/blob/master/src/unittests/unittests.lisp#L261
2014-04-28T04:52:54Z leo2007: |3b|: that file loads in sbcl.
2014-04-28T04:53:09Z leo2007: I mean lisp-matrix works in sbcl.
2014-04-28T04:53:12Z |3b|: leo2007: presumably sbcl is more permissive about reading things inside #+NIL
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2014-04-28T04:53:42Z Bike: eh, shouldn't reader errors during #+nil be suppressed
2014-04-28T04:54:08Z pjb: Most of them, yes.
2014-04-28T04:54:43Z pjb: And only when (null (member :nil *features*)).
2014-04-28T04:54:56Z pjb: Better use #-(and) or #+(or).
2014-04-28T04:55:17Z leo2007: |3b|: you are right. it is using unicode ' `
2014-04-28T04:55:44Z |3b|: when *read-suppress* is true "...the single-quote and backquote notations continue to be interpreted properly"
2014-04-28T04:56:18Z |3b|: which doesn't exactly say it should complain about #\, but doesn't rule it out either
2014-04-28T04:56:39Z leo2007: |3b|: thanks, that fixes the problem.
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2014-04-28T05:01:48Z leo2007: loading cls in CCL throws symbol conflict error
2014-04-28T05:01:53Z leo2007: sbcl loads cls just fine.
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2014-04-28T05:09:03Z Ryan_Burnside: I've got to get to bed, I'll pop in tomorrow if anyone has time with the Lispbuilder SDL issue I'm having. Goodnight all.
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2014-04-28T06:54:51Z H4ns: is there an easy way to make doplist and doquery indent the same way as dolist in emacs?  i bet there is, but i don't know where to start.
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2014-04-28T07:01:47Z |3b|: H4ns: look at common-lisp-indent-function i think
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2014-04-28T07:03:27Z |3b|: maybe (put 'doplist 'common-lisp-indent-function) (get 'dolist 'common-lisp-indent-function))
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2014-04-28T07:04:21Z H4ns: |3b|: nice, thanks!
2014-04-28T07:04:25Z |3b|: minus the first )
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2014-04-28T08:35:36Z katspaugh: Hi! Is there any built-in lisp in the default Ubuntu server distribution?
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2014-04-28T08:35:58Z z0d: katspaugh: there are several, which you can install with apt-get
2014-04-28T08:36:05Z z0d: e.g. SBCL
2014-04-28T08:36:10Z H4ns: katspaugh: several lisps are installable as apt package, but if you want to develop lisp youself, you should get the latest version manually and use that.
2014-04-28T08:36:20Z H4ns: katspaugh: the apt packages are generally outdated and not well maintained.
2014-04-28T08:36:40Z H4ns: katspaugh: to my knowledge, there are no well maintained ppa's for any of the popular lisp implementations.
2014-04-28T08:37:01Z z0d: katspaugh: as for SBCL, you can download a compiled binary, which works fine on Ubuntu
2014-04-28T08:37:09Z katspaugh: z0d: H4ns: I see, thanks! I used to install SBCL manually, so will do that again.
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2014-04-28T09:04:58Z H4ns: is there a function that, given a list, calls a predicate with each cdr of the list until it returns non-nil?  i'm kind of looking for something like find or member that operates on cdrs
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2014-04-28T09:05:27Z H4ns: it is certainly easy to write, but i feel that it would as well be a clever application of an existing function
2014-04-28T09:05:42Z H4ns: (what i'm really doing is search a list for a certain other list.
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2014-04-28T09:17:29Z Shinmera: H4ns: (loop for sublist = list then (cdr sublist) always sublist never (predicate sublist)) ?
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2014-04-28T09:17:41Z H4ns: Shinmera: i was looking for a function.
2014-04-28T09:17:55Z Shinmera: Ah, right
2014-04-28T09:18:39Z Shinmera: Wouldn't know then, the only thing for sublists that comes to mind is maplist but that's not helpful in this case.
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2014-04-28T09:21:16Z H4ns: Shinmera: thanks.
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2014-04-28T09:27:56Z dim: find :key #'cdr isn't what you want?
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2014-04-28T09:29:24Z H4ns: dim: no.  find operates on the car of lists (it actually works with sequences, not conses)
2014-04-28T09:30:08Z dim: oh, yeah, then loop/on/by would be my next try, but that's not a function already in the standard as you say
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2014-04-28T09:35:16Z H4ns: on uses #'cdr by default, so it is just on.  works great, thanks!
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2014-04-28T09:38:55Z dim: oh, I always write on/by #'cddr, missing that that's the default
2014-04-28T09:39:10Z dim: maybe it's not the default in cl.el where I learnt about it first
2014-04-28T09:39:12Z dim: anyways
2014-04-28T09:39:26Z H4ns: #'cdr is the default
2014-04-28T09:39:35Z ejt: hi, is cltl2 still the reference book of choice for common lisp ?
2014-04-28T09:39:49Z H4ns: ejt: no, the ansi spec is the reference book
2014-04-28T09:39:55Z dim: oh, yeah, misread your text into what I expected to read, classic
2014-04-28T09:40:14Z H4ns: ejt: cltl2 is a nice book to have on the desk, but it is not authoritative and there are differences between what it says and the ansi spec.
2014-04-28T09:40:25Z ejt: H4ns: thx
2014-04-28T09:42:53Z RenJuan still uses cltl2 for practical/general but not reference purpose
2014-04-28T09:43:30Z ejt: I'm trying to get up to speed with common-lisp (lots of experience with scheme, hand rolled lisps, haskell etc)
2014-04-28T09:43:58Z ejt: so reading cltl2 cover to cover and then using the hyper spec whilst actually programming sounds sensible?
2014-04-28T09:44:05Z dim: read Practical Common Lisp then, I think that's the best current choice
2014-04-28T09:44:25Z H4ns: ejt: yes, that is a sensible approach
2014-04-28T09:44:50Z H4ns: ejt: practical common lisp describes a subset, but if you're interested in learning all of cl, cltl2 is more comprehensive
2014-04-28T09:45:05Z H4ns: ejt: beware of the huge amount of historical baggage that you'll read, though.
2014-04-28T09:45:32Z ejt: I've just run through On Lisp and Let over Lambda, found Graham's Ansi CL book too dull.
2014-04-28T09:45:42Z H4ns: ejt: it is easy to become mislead on modern common lisp style when consuming the spec and assuming that everything described in there (or cltl2 for that matter) is really useful.
2014-04-28T09:46:08Z ejt: k
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2014-04-28T10:03:43Z RenJuan: I would not read it cover to cover, especially if I already had a lot of experience with scheme
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2014-04-28T10:04:00Z RenJuan: review to cover to cover, sure
2014-04-28T10:04:30Z RenJuan: some whole parts are better off from other sources such as the object system
2014-04-28T10:06:03Z ejt: ok, I was going to skip the CLOS stuff, the object system doesn't interest me atm
2014-04-28T10:07:37Z splittist: It may (or may not) help you make sense of the condition system, which is pretty exciting.
2014-04-28T10:07:51Z ejt: CLOS may?
2014-04-28T10:08:15Z splittist: Yes.
2014-04-28T10:08:22Z splittist: Accent on the 'may', of course.
2014-04-28T10:09:31Z dim: CLOS had me change from avoiding OOP to finding it well integrated and useful
2014-04-28T10:11:10Z RenJuan: CL and perl are the only langs I can think of that a general purpose mechanisms that allow you to create OOP
2014-04-28T10:11:12Z nydel: really dim? what text would you recommend to someone who's still avoiding oop in cl?
2014-04-28T10:11:15Z RenJuan: and perl don't count
2014-04-28T10:11:39Z RenJuan: *with a
2014-04-28T10:11:56Z RenJuan: *with
2014-04-28T10:12:32Z leo2007: RenJuan: was amazed that perl5 can have that.
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2014-04-28T10:13:01Z RenJuan: leo2007, ack
2014-04-28T10:13:21Z Shinmera: I came from an OOP language, so I can't say what would make CLOS exciting/interesting to someone who didn't, but one thing that was really interesting to read for me was the chapter in On Lisp that shows how you can write your own OOP system with relative ease in CL.
2014-04-28T10:13:31Z RenJuan: AMOP and Kleene are the contemporaries to ctl2 for the OS
2014-04-28T10:15:10Z ejt: Kleene or Keene?
2014-04-28T10:15:32Z RenJuan: yeah Keene, sorry
2014-04-28T10:15:43Z ejt: np, found it
2014-04-28T10:19:33Z RenJuan: although, actually I think looking at the sources of something like say cl-http that fully uses the OS is better at this point
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2014-04-28T10:20:21Z RenJuan: CL is also the only lang I can think of that has a fully received and well worked out OOP that is routinely ignored
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2014-04-28T10:21:03Z Shinmera: RenJuan: Probably because you can do everything without it, unlike in many other languages.
2014-04-28T10:21:17Z RenJuan: unless you consider using C instead of C++ to be that
2014-04-28T10:22:01Z RenJuan: Shinmera, that and it is more complex
2014-04-28T10:22:02Z samebchase: http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3243735416407529@naggum.no.html
2014-04-28T10:23:39Z Shinmera: Hmm, I really should read more naggum articles.
2014-04-28T10:23:54Z Shinmera: Always been a pleasure to read the ones I have read so far.
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2014-04-28T10:27:49Z RenJuan has started buying/getting old but well remembered text books I threw out off the net. Last night looked at Horowitz's Art of Electronics and Boylistads Introductory Circuit Analysis. Pleasantly the 10th ed of the latter is freely downloadable.
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2014-04-28T10:30:37Z ejt: I picked up a copy of 'Recursive Programming Techiniques' by Burge a few years ago.  Was very impressed.
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2014-04-28T11:38:08Z dim: nydel: I just began playing with defstruct and generics/methods, then wanted more flexibility in the data side of things, and upgraded to clos
2014-04-28T11:38:31Z dim: if you like defstruct and dispatching on them, you will like clos
2014-04-28T11:38:38Z dim: well that's my current viewpoint
2014-04-28T11:41:29Z Cymew: The Keene book is really good for detailing CLOS, but didn't RPG used to have lots of OOP articles on his website?
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2014-04-28T11:44:15Z Cymew: http://www.dreamsongs.com/CLOS.html
2014-04-28T11:44:58Z Cymew: ejt: You might want to check that out
2014-04-28T11:45:17Z Cymew: Those texts made me a CLOS fan
2014-04-28T11:48:21Z dim: this Naggum article is really good.
2014-04-28T11:52:11Z ejt reads 
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2014-04-28T12:09:36Z H4ns: all that talk about clos and oop made me replace the list based mess that i had in the morning by some proper classes, thanks for that :)
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2014-04-28T12:11:25Z dim: hehe, I also find that what I call "anonymous data structures" (for lack of a proper name, if one does exists, I mean list of lists basically) is great for discovering the problem, but you'd rather switch to something more structured as soon as you have a good enough grasp of the problem
2014-04-28T12:11:51Z dim: well at least I'd better do that, or I won't be smart enough to maintain the code
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2014-04-28T12:12:31Z H4ns: i have a lot of code that uses anonymous structures and that i can maintain, but i'll gladly admit that it is a bit painful and would not have passed any code review.
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2014-04-28T12:14:40Z dim: maybe I'm aging faster than I would like to admit, but when I used to say "I can maintain that up to a point", when I can imagine the point, I just say I can't
2014-04-28T12:18:08Z dim: then it's all being able to imagine the next maintain breakup point
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2014-04-28T12:55:57Z ejt: anyone use slime mode here?
2014-04-28T12:57:46Z dim: most of the chan I guess
2014-04-28T12:57:55Z dim: slime maintainer(s) are around at times too
2014-04-28T12:59:01Z ejt: what's the normal work flow?  reload/compile the file, or just eval each defun as you write it?
2014-04-28T12:59:09Z ejt: unit tests in file, or separate file?
2014-04-28T13:00:04Z dim: C-M-x, play in the REPL with the code, unit tests I guess you can find different opinions, I've seen lots of separate package and file for them
2014-04-28T13:00:18Z splittist: ejt: C-c C-c each defun as you (re)write it. Test it at the repl. If you're that way inclined, tests in a separate file.
2014-04-28T13:00:33Z ejt: thx
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2014-04-28T13:01:37Z splittist: ejt: periodically restart everything to make sure you're not accidentally relying on some historical accident in your image. Even try it all with a different implementation to see if you're really standard (:
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2014-04-28T13:02:32Z dim: yeah I often (ql:quickload "myproject") again, basically before each git commit, just to be sure
2014-04-28T13:02:45Z dim: then C-c C-l to avoid missing important notes and warnings from the compiler too
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2014-04-28T13:03:07Z splittist: ejt: don't forget paredit mode
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2014-04-28T13:04:50Z ejt: that's what it's called!
2014-04-28T13:04:57Z ejt: I was looking for that on Saturday
2014-04-28T13:05:30Z ejt: brain had garbage collected it in the intervening 10 years since I last used it
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2014-04-28T13:07:57Z splittist: redshank has some fun stuff, too. (Not so much the template stuff as the COND my IF etc.) http://www.foldr.org/~michaelw/emacs/redshank/
2014-04-28T13:09:56Z ejt: hmm, looks a bit like the template stuff in TextMate
2014-04-28T13:12:13Z splittist: As I say, that's not the interesting (to me) stuff. It's moving LETs around, turning IFs into CONDs, etc. A glimpse of something interesting.
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2014-04-28T13:22:00Z dim: +1 on redshank condify and all
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2014-04-28T13:27:55Z quazimodo: hey all
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2014-04-28T13:29:41Z quazimodo: cl-charms installation/loading via quicklisp is giving me issues with ncurses libs; Error opening shared object "libncursesw.so": libncursesw.so: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
2014-04-28T13:29:55Z quazimodo: that particular file is libncursesw.so.5 in my system :/
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2014-04-28T13:30:25Z ejt: quazimodo: create a symlink?
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2014-04-28T13:33:32Z quazimodo: ejt: sure, but is this correct behaviour?
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2014-04-28T13:33:49Z quazimodo: is it my system at fault here, or cl-charms' definition?
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2014-04-28T13:54:21Z ejt: quazimodo: I just have the .5 libs on my Ubuntu system
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2014-04-28T14:04:13Z quazimodo: weird
2014-04-28T14:04:26Z quazimodo: hrm i don't understand how to use cl-charms
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2014-04-28T14:05:25Z quazimodo: ncurses has the two variables LINES and COLS as ints that represent terminal size
2014-04-28T14:05:42Z quazimodo: would I expect to eval cl-charms:cols ?
2014-04-28T14:06:12Z splittist: quazimodo: if only you had the source code to examine...
2014-04-28T14:06:23Z quazimodo: splittist: yeah fair call
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2014-04-28T14:07:43Z ejt: "cl-charms couldn't find my installation of the curses library by itself. It was looking for a library named "libcurses.so" or "libncurses.so", but on my system, the library was only present with versioned names. So I had to use the USE-VALUE restart during loading the library and provide the alternative value ("libncurses.so.5") for the list of library names. For using the library often, you should probably want to change the library source code and m
2014-04-28T14:08:14Z ejt: so looks like it's cl-charms issue
2014-04-28T14:08:50Z quazimodo: woot :D
2014-04-28T14:09:04Z quazimodo: ejt: :D
2014-04-28T14:09:06Z quazimodo: <3
2014-04-28T14:11:15Z ejt: quazimodo: looking at the source it looks like a straight wrapper around ncurses
2014-04-28T14:11:23Z ejt: so start with the ncurses documentation
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2014-04-28T14:23:25Z quazimodo: ejt: yep I'm looking at it all now
2014-04-28T14:23:44Z quazimodo: how does one convert a character to its 32 bit signed number in cl?
2014-04-28T14:24:38Z quazimodo: try char-int i suppose
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2014-04-28T14:25:19Z quazimodo: oh i see, char-code :D
2014-04-28T14:28:02Z quazimodo: common-lisp hyperspec is quite useful it seems, though I kinda wish functions were named and described based on data types
2014-04-28T14:28:07Z quazimodo: <- ruby guy
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2014-04-28T14:38:20Z Cymew: ruby is a quite interesting lisp ;)
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2014-04-28T15:03:16Z leonvv: Hello, I'm trying to learn Lisp and I wrote a program to beat problem 3 on project euler, is there anyone that can do some code review and give me some tips? http://pastebin.com/2RuAbhcs
2014-04-28T15:03:43Z stassats: (round (sqrt x)) => (isqrt x)
2014-04-28T15:04:43Z leonvv: stassats, thanks, will change that
2014-04-28T15:04:43Z stassats: (loop for i from 3 to (isqrt x) by 2 never (zerop (rem x i)))
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2014-04-28T15:05:24Z ejt: style issue: I'd rearrange next-prime to remove the incf
2014-04-28T15:05:37Z stassats: and to remove recursion
2014-04-28T15:05:43Z leonvv: stassats, what does 'never' do exactly?
2014-04-28T15:05:57Z stassats: leonvv: it should be self explanatory
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2014-04-28T15:06:39Z leonvv: stassats, not loop when (rem x i) is 0 ?
2014-04-28T15:06:57Z ejt: you need to either memo is-prime, or choose another alg
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2014-04-28T15:09:02Z leonvv: stassats, why would I want to remove the recursion?
2014-04-28T15:09:28Z stassats: because there is no need to use it
2014-04-28T15:10:33Z leonvv: stassats, so how would you write it?
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2014-04-28T15:11:11Z stassats: (loop for i from x when (primep i) return i)
2014-04-28T15:12:25Z leonvv: stassats, what's better about iteration? is 'primep' better than 'is-prime' ?
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2014-04-28T15:13:05Z stassats: there's nothing good about needless recursion
2014-04-28T15:13:08Z ejt: as I understand it correct tail recursion isn't in the standard (but most compilers do it).  I'd tail recurse, but I'm a cl novice.
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2014-04-28T15:13:26Z stassats: it may be eyeopening after years of goto slavery, but it's nothing special
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2014-04-28T15:30:08Z quazimodo: hrm lisp is crazy
2014-04-28T15:30:28Z quazimodo: I feel like creating a macro with-window that appends a window argument to the argument list of all the body forms
2014-04-28T15:30:41Z quazimodo: <- wouldn't think about doing such craziness in other languages
2014-04-28T15:31:51Z quazimodo: pjb: i cant believe how much your name pops up when I google lisp stuff
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2014-04-28T15:50:11Z oGMo: quazimodo: note that's probably a terrible idea, but try it and you'll soon find out why
2014-04-28T15:51:11Z oGMo: if nothing else, you should use a *window* dynamic variable and with-window should bind that for its body
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2014-04-28T16:09:20Z quazimodo: oGMo: yeah I abandoned it
2014-04-28T16:09:44Z quazimodo: I am now trying to figure out how to wrap wscanw in cl-charms... for some reason it wasn't implemented
2014-04-28T16:10:07Z oGMo: not familiar with either
2014-04-28T16:10:19Z quazimodo: :D
2014-04-28T16:10:22Z quazimodo: *poke*
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2014-04-28T16:10:31Z oGMo: oh, well, that's easily explained .. that's a horrible function you should never use heh
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2014-04-28T16:13:51Z oGMo: (google "why scanf is bad" or similar and read any of a million relevant links)
2014-04-28T16:14:15Z oGMo: wrapping vargs stuff is theoretically possible iirc but, especially in this case, not really worth the effort
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2014-04-28T16:19:10Z quazimodo: hrm
2014-04-28T16:19:42Z quazimodo: I think I'll poll for stdinput with regular lisp and then update the gui using cl-charms curses wrappers. That way I can entirely avoid this whole scanf fiasco
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2014-04-28T16:22:27Z quazimodo goes to bed. thanks all
2014-04-28T16:22:33Z quazimodo hugs oGMo 
2014-04-28T16:22:47Z quazimodo starts gyrating and thrusting
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2014-04-28T16:27:51Z Xach: That is hardly necessary
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2014-04-28T16:31:04Z quazimodo: but before I actually go, I can't seem to find a function that reads from stdin and doesn't need an EOF :/
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2014-04-28T16:31:54Z quazimodo: bleh leave it for tomorrow, peace
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2014-04-28T18:56:21Z puchacz: hi, has anybody written a mailer recently?
2014-04-28T18:56:43Z puchacz: to go through a list of email addresses and send a message to each person
2014-04-28T18:57:14Z puchacz: cliki / networking has some email related libraries, but maybe somebody has had hands on experience recently
2014-04-28T18:58:09Z H4ns: i'm using my own fork of cl-smtp, works well
2014-04-28T18:58:28Z puchacz: H4ns, why did you have to fork it?
2014-04-28T18:58:32Z puchacz: any bugs?
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2014-04-28T18:59:11Z H4ns: not really, but i have hacked it heavily many years ago and my changes did not make it into cl-smtp
2014-04-28T18:59:41Z H4ns: not really bugs, more that i like to have fine-grained control over the headers whereas cl-smtp hides the details from the user
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2014-04-28T19:00:56Z puchacz: H4ns: thanks, I will give it a go
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2014-04-28T19:04:59Z nyef: About the only problem I recall having with cl-smtp is the lack of a dot-stuffer.
2014-04-28T19:06:30Z puchacz: nyef: I have never used a mailer, what is dot-stuffer?
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2014-04-28T19:09:20Z nyef: To terminate a message being sent over SMTP, you send a single line containing a single period and no other characters.
2014-04-28T19:09:36Z nyef: To screw up an email sender without a dot-stuffer, include such a line in your message.
2014-04-28T19:10:04Z nyef: A dot-stuffer doubles-up on dots if they start a line.
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2014-04-28T19:10:29Z puchacz: I see, thanks
2014-04-28T19:10:33Z nyef: Thus avoiding the bug...  By lightly corrupting the message. There's typically a compensatory process somewhere along the line.
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2014-04-28T19:13:56Z puchacz: I understand I need to set up smtp server on my "prod" box as well, what do you use?
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2014-04-28T19:20:17Z puchacz: nyef/H4ns, what do you guys use as an SMTP server?
2014-04-28T19:20:31Z nyef: postfix
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2014-04-28T19:20:37Z puchacz: thx
2014-04-28T19:20:53Z nyef: I can't speak as to H4ns, however.
2014-04-28T19:21:06Z z0d: postfix here
2014-04-28T19:21:20Z puchacz: I would like something to start up and forget, like nginx :-)
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2014-04-28T19:37:13Z H4ns uses *cough* exim *cough*
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2014-04-28T19:42:10Z drewc uses postfix as well, if his opinion counts enough to make it 3-1 postfix ;)
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2014-04-28T19:44:25Z z0d: exim is a chess program. the fact that it can also send mail is kind of incidental
2014-04-28T19:44:35Z Shinmera: I use postfix for the sole reason of it being the first I found good setup tutorials for.
2014-04-28T19:47:14Z Krystof: chalk me up for exim, but then I did cut my Unix teeth at Cambridge...
2014-04-28T19:48:42Z LiamH: Used to use exim, but years ago gave up running mail servers. Now just using msmtp for outgoing mail. So simple.
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2014-04-28T19:49:06Z z0d: I used to use exim, but found postfix much easier to configure
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2014-04-28T21:27:36Z colpepper: ahh it's a wonderful day!
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2014-04-28T23:18:29Z heddwch: sendmail
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2014-04-28T23:23:24Z pjb: heddwch: yes.
2014-04-28T23:24:09Z heddwch: :)
2014-04-28T23:25:08Z pjb: R$* :: $* <@>		$: $1 :: $2
2014-04-28T23:25:22Z heddwch: Looks perfectly clear to me
2014-04-28T23:25:23Z pjb: sendmail rulesets were fun, I liked them.
2014-04-28T23:25:40Z heddwch: It was just before its time, perl stole its job
2014-04-28T23:25:49Z pjb: But a lot of people couldn't understand them.  It was just rewriting rules, like grammar productions.
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2014-04-28T23:30:03Z nyef shudders.
2014-04-28T23:30:18Z nyef: I've had to look at sendmail configuration a time or two. I'm grateful that I didn't have to DEBUG it.
2014-04-28T23:30:22Z pillton shudders too.
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2014-04-28T23:31:23Z oGMo: heh .. though now that you bring it up, a nice CL DSL for generating sendmail rules and a parser to make them readable might be neat
2014-04-28T23:31:36Z oGMo: or would if anyone still used sendmail and not postfix
2014-04-28T23:31:49Z pillton: pjb: I am surprised you know that sendmail stuff or is it the output of one of your libraries?
2014-04-28T23:32:10Z oGMo: looks like sendmail, but then so does banging on the keyboard with shift held down
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2014-04-28T23:38:39Z pjb: pillton: this is one line of one of my sendmail.cf files.
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2014-04-28T23:39:23Z pjb: Not used anymore for a long time.
2014-04-28T23:40:21Z pillton: Mail server documentation is what I go to when I have trouble sleeping.
2014-04-28T23:40:39Z pjb: oGMo: of course, if I had been a lisper when I used to configure sendmail, I would probably have written a couple of emacs commands to do just that.
2014-04-28T23:40:53Z pjb: I had the o'reilly sendmail book.
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2014-04-28T23:41:09Z sellout: pjb: Oh man, I had that book, too :(
2014-04-28T23:41:38Z pjb: I hope O'Reilly's having fun on a Bahamas beach :-)
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2014-04-28T23:58:25Z colpepper: ahoy friends
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2014-04-29T00:26:15Z rvirding: How can I get CL to print the raw structures without trying to make it more beautiful? I mean I want to see 'A printed as (QUOTE A).
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2014-04-29T00:32:39Z Xach: rvirding: is that it, or are there others?
2014-04-29T00:33:22Z rvirding: No the 'A was just an example of what I meant
2014-04-29T00:33:42Z pjb: rvirding: there's no other way than to implement it yourself.
2014-04-29T00:33:51Z rvirding: I want to see the pure raw datastructure
2014-04-29T00:34:01Z Xach: rvirding: what does that mean?
2014-04-29T00:34:06Z Denommus: rvirding: you mean you want to see (QUOTE . (A . NIL)), then?
2014-04-29T00:34:22Z pjb: Try: (com.informatimago.common-lisp.picture.cons-to-ascii:print-conses ''a)
2014-04-29T00:34:46Z rvirding: I can accept lists as they are but if if the only way is get that then so be it
2014-04-29T00:34:48Z Xach: You can get quite "this is not a pipe" with it.
2014-04-29T00:35:09Z Xach: There are internal and external representations, and multiple valid external represetnations for a given internal one.
2014-04-29T00:35:13Z Denommus: rvirding: no, I'm just kidding
2014-04-29T00:36:25Z rvirding: I was just after being able to (the-pure-raw-print (read)) to see what the actual structure was
2014-04-29T00:36:45Z rvirding: what it is parsed at
2014-04-29T00:36:55Z rvirding: as*
2014-04-29T00:37:12Z pjb: How does (com.informatimago.common-lisp.picture.cons-to-ascii:print-conses (read)) fit the bill?
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2014-04-29T00:38:50Z pillton: (set-pprint-dispatch '(cons (eql quote) (cons symbol null)) #'print-quote-expanded) ?
2014-04-29T00:38:52Z pjb: But then, if you have lists in structures or vectors, it won't recurse.
2014-04-29T00:39:16Z pjb: (incf pillton) ; I'm yet to learn the pretty printer.
2014-04-29T00:39:34Z pillton: That works for me.
2014-04-29T00:39:52Z rvirding: pjb: does that work in sbcl?
2014-04-29T00:40:02Z pjb: It doesn't work in ccl.
2014-04-29T00:41:31Z rvirding: sbcl didn't like it
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2014-04-29T00:41:33Z pillton: What I wrote works in SBCL and CCL.
2014-04-29T00:41:42Z Bike: y'all are vague about what errors you're seeing
2014-04-29T00:41:44Z pjb: Not here. ccl-1.9
2014-04-29T00:41:52Z Xach: rvirding: do you grok internal and external representation?
2014-04-29T00:42:01Z pjb: > Debug: Undefined function: print-quote-expanded
2014-04-29T00:42:06Z rvirding: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/OK3NjCNK
2014-04-29T00:42:15Z Bike: and i'm not sure what you mean by "the actual structure", is :pretty nil :circle t enough
2014-04-29T00:42:34Z Bike: rvirding: yes, if you want to use pjb's code you'll need to get it first
2014-04-29T00:42:52Z pjb: (ql:quickload com.informatimago.common-lisp.picture)
2014-04-29T00:43:01Z pjb: +
2014-04-29T00:43:02Z pjb: :
2014-04-29T00:43:45Z pillton: http://hastebin.com/ketekoyadi
2014-04-29T00:46:31Z rvirding: Bike: the :pretty nil :circle t is definitely on the way
2014-04-29T00:47:23Z Bike: on the way?
2014-04-29T00:47:42Z rvirding: for the 2 simple tests I have done it works
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2014-04-29T00:58:41Z rvirding: Bike: ty it seems to do what I need
2014-04-29T00:58:55Z Bike: alright, well that's good, probably
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2014-04-29T01:23:52Z pillton: Has anyone written anything on functions that generate lambda forms?
2014-04-29T01:24:04Z pillton: i.e. (defun f (...) `(lambda (...) ...))
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2014-04-29T01:25:26Z Bike: what's to write?
2014-04-29T01:25:54Z pillton: Well, I find them interesting as you can compose lambda forms from other lambda forms without worrying about symbol clashes.
2014-04-29T01:26:38Z pillton: I have been using them to generate very type specific code.
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2014-04-29T01:35:48Z quazimodo: so I'm using cl-charms to provide an ncurses based console ui for my program, and I'm a little bit confused over the "correct" way to do the following;
2014-04-29T01:36:44Z quazimodo: i want to to listen to my keyboard, build/update some variable containing the whole string typed so far, and call some function with that string to do something useful
2014-04-29T01:37:00Z quazimodo: i thougth polling would be obvious way, but is there some way to bind to a keyboard event?
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2014-04-29T01:37:44Z quazimodo: eg user types a , myvar = "a", call (some-func myvar). user types b, myvar = "ab", call (some-func myvar), user hits backspace, myvar="a", so on...
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2014-04-29T01:38:11Z pillton: quazimodo: Can't you just block until the user presses a key?
2014-04-29T01:38:14Z oGMo: quazimodo: like anything else, listen for input, possibly select/poll or use a thread
2014-04-29T01:38:48Z oGMo: though note ncurses has some thread restrictions
2014-04-29T01:39:02Z quazimodo: I have *no* idea, im outa my water here
2014-04-29T01:39:16Z oGMo: look for an ncurses tutorial
2014-04-29T01:39:35Z pillton: quazimodo: Do you have other event sources? i.e. network sockets, mouse?
2014-04-29T01:39:57Z quazimodo: oGMo: I wasn't even certain if I should be using ncurses for input or if i should use CL for input, then echo to the ncurses lib
2014-04-29T01:40:12Z quazimodo: pillton: not atm, just keyboard presses
2014-04-29T01:40:23Z oGMo: quazimodo: curses is pretty much your main choice for any non-line-editing unless you reimplement a lot of terminal handling .. which may conflict with curses
2014-04-29T01:40:47Z quazimodo: pillton: so I'm guessing you mean loop it, use getch() to just stick around and wait for input, when it gets the input, do some stuffs, then come back to getch again?
2014-04-29T01:41:05Z pillton: quazimodo: precisely.
2014-04-29T01:41:10Z oGMo: so, yes, use ncurses .. possibly poll(2) which is possibly easier to wrap and use in CL than select
2014-04-29T01:41:15Z quazimodo: yeah ok, i didn't consider if getch does that :)
2014-04-29T01:41:28Z quazimodo: oGMo: poll(2), select?
2014-04-29T01:41:37Z oGMo: quazimodo: yes, that's an option .. you could do that and use background threads to do other things (but don't call curses functions)
2014-04-29T01:41:41Z oGMo: quazimodo: man 2 poll
2014-04-29T01:41:47Z quazimodo: pillton: im thinking maybe i should spawn a worker thread to block and listen then
2014-04-29T01:41:57Z pillton: quazimodo: Don't waste your time.
2014-04-29T01:42:07Z pillton: quazimodo: Worry about that problem when you have another event source.
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2014-04-29T01:42:35Z quazimodo: pillton: yeah i suppose you're right, dont fix it if it aint broken
2014-04-29T01:42:48Z pillton: quazimodo: Just write your code such that you process a key press event. How it arrives doesn't matter.
2014-04-29T01:43:06Z quazimodo: awesome. you guys rock
2014-04-29T01:43:15Z quazimodo is happy you put up with him :D
2014-04-29T01:43:50Z oGMo: it'll be more involved if you want to do anything while you're listening, but
2014-04-29T01:44:38Z DalekBaldwin: is there a good set of unit tests out there for a CL implementation, testing special operator interactions and weird corner cases and the like? I've been copying some of the example code from the hyperspec but I was hoping there was some standard thorough set of test cases out there
2014-04-29T01:45:06Z Bike: DalekBaldwin: like http://common-lisp.net/project/ansi-test/ you mean?
2014-04-29T01:46:16Z DalekBaldwin: that looks promising
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2014-04-29T01:47:10Z DalekBaldwin: can I get the source through git?
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2014-04-29T01:47:25Z quazimodo: oGMo: yeah I guess when the work starts to take too long (which I suspect it will since there will be fuzzy matching) then I'll use threads
2014-04-29T01:47:38Z quazimodo gets exuberant
2014-04-29T01:48:32Z pjb: pillton: search for alpha-reduction.
2014-04-29T01:48:42Z pjb: or alpha-substitution.
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2014-04-29T01:50:14Z pillton: pjb: Cheers.
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2014-04-29T01:50:51Z Bike: DalekBaldwin: dunno, sorry
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2014-04-29T01:59:38Z quazimodo: whats the StandardError exception in cl?
2014-04-29T02:00:04Z quazimodo: i'm playing with handler-case and i want to catch all exceptions (for my own learning)
2014-04-29T02:00:07Z Bike: CL:ERROR
2014-04-29T02:00:14Z Bike: There are other exceptions that aren't errors
2014-04-29T02:00:33Z Bike: They should all be subtypes of CONDITION, though, so go with that one
2014-04-29T02:01:22Z loke: Bike: warnings are conditions too, and warnings don't normally interrupt the program flow unless caught
2014-04-29T02:01:28Z loke: so catching them might be a bad thing to do
2014-04-29T02:01:50Z Bike: yes, but quazimodo says they are just playing
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2014-04-29T02:06:53Z quazimodo: hrm so something like (handler-case (some-form ...) (condition (cnd) (recover cnd)))
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2014-04-29T02:13:44Z genkinodenki: pillton: can you elaborate a bit on what you said about using nested(?) lambdas for strong typing(?)
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2014-04-29T02:15:59Z Zhivago: If only strong typing were particularly meaningful.
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2014-04-29T02:48:35Z quazimodo: it seems like (cl-charms:wgetstr win str) is trying to set the caught str into the pointer str (as per its c implementation), so i'm certain that the form here is incorrect. howwould I write this form so the function can write into str?
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2014-04-29T04:03:00Z leo2007: what is the closest thing to unibyte strings in common lisp? simple-vector of bytes
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2014-04-29T04:05:01Z Bike: (simple-vector (unsigned-byte 8))?
2014-04-29T04:05:21Z Bike: er, (simple-array (unsigned-byte 8) (*)) rather
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2014-04-29T04:10:47Z pillton: Zhivago: I needed strong typing for my case as the compiler generated much faster code if it new an array was of type (simple-array double-float (* *)) or (simple-array (unsigned-byte 8) (* *)) over say (array * (* *)).
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2014-04-29T04:12:44Z pjb: leo2007: base-string
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2014-04-29T04:19:47Z Zhivago: And by 'strong typing' you mean?
2014-04-29T04:20:13Z Zhivago: Ah, apparantly, you mean a type that corresponds to a class.
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2014-04-29T04:20:30Z Zhivago: A novel definition, but since strong typing doesn't mean anything in particular, no worse than the usual abuses.
2014-04-29T04:21:03Z pillton: Zhivago: Ok my mistake.
2014-04-29T04:22:30Z pillton: Zhivago: If the compiler can make better use of knowing that something is (INTEGER 0 4) than say INTEGER, what are you meant to say?
2014-04-29T04:23:21Z Bike: you could say the type is more precise
2014-04-29T04:23:57Z Zhivago: Probably you're after something like 'type specialized variants'.
2014-04-29T04:24:24Z pillton: Ok. That is what I meant. My apologies.
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2014-04-29T04:25:44Z pillton: Zhivago: Thanks for pointing out my incorrect usage.
2014-04-29T04:26:24Z Zhivago: You're welcome.
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2014-04-29T04:34:07Z leo2007: pjb: how can base-string represent unibyte strings?
2014-04-29T04:34:51Z Zhivago: By accident. But what problem are you trying to solve?
2014-04-29T04:35:34Z leo2007: I am reading from /dev/urandom for a number of bytes and want to pass it back to emacs. so #() fails elisp.
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2014-04-29T04:36:17Z Zhivago: What does emacs expect?
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2014-04-29T04:36:31Z leo2007: a string will do.
2014-04-29T04:37:38Z Zhivago: Well, then unibyte is completely irrelevant.
2014-04-29T04:37:52Z Zhivago: Just take the bytes and serialize them into a string containing the structure that emacs expects.
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2014-04-29T04:42:47Z leo2007: OK, I'll return a list for now.
2014-04-29T04:43:33Z leo2007: how to optionally depend on a system, in my case cl+ssl?
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2014-04-29T04:44:01Z leo2007: basically if /dev/urandom exists, I'll use it directory otherwise use cl+ssl:random-bytes
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2014-04-29T04:44:07Z leo2007: directly*
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2014-04-29T07:51:36Z dim: how one would try to identify a "memory leak" using SBCL?
2014-04-29T07:54:01Z Bike: you mean things not being garbage collected? start with room, i guess
2014-04-29T07:55:13Z Krystof: there are some heap inspectors around; I think lichteblau had one, and attila_lendvai too
2014-04-29T07:55:28Z dim: well I don't have the interactive environment setup where it happens, I guess I could work on that first... but in any case pgloader will see data I know nothing about before hand, and in plenty of cases I will not have access to the data
2014-04-29T07:55:42Z Krystof: on a good day, you can use map-referencing-objects to find the things referring to things that you think should be collected but aren't
2014-04-29T07:55:44Z dim: Krystof: if you want to read more about it, it's at https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/issues/16#issuecomment-41600777
2014-04-29T07:56:10Z Krystof: also, cracauer is working on making the conservatism in the x86/-64 collector less conservative
2014-04-29T07:56:27Z dim: the main thing I guess is that pgloader is doing too many memory copy operations, I need to see about that, but the way it's using threads is killing my ability to profile it
2014-04-29T07:56:43Z attila_lendvai: dim: there's this somewhat bitrotten code, but it used to help us track down leaks: http://dwim.hu/darcsweb/darcsweb.cgi?r=HEAD%20hu.dwim.debug;a=summary
2014-04-29T07:57:28Z dim: thanks, trying to figure that out
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2014-04-29T08:04:11Z dim: the easy answer would be that the memory usage depends on lparallel.queue here, because I'm using that to send batches in between threads
2014-04-29T08:04:40Z dim: is there a known memory efficient way to share data in between threads in CL?
2014-04-29T08:05:01Z dim: (ideally, a zero copy one, that my guess was lparallel.queue would be using)
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2014-04-29T08:43:59Z pjb: dim: the first thing to use is ROOM, which in general gives number of object by type (or at least by size).  This should give you an idea of what the leaked objects are.
2014-04-29T08:44:06Z pjb: Usually it's enough.
2014-04-29T08:45:19Z dim: in the pgloader case, the run is non-interactive (CLI application made with buildapp); would you recommand adding (room) output in the logs at intervals for offline debugging?
2014-04-29T08:46:19Z dim: also it seems that CCL builds of pgloader tend to be faster and less memory hundry than SBCL counterparts, I'm improving the buildapp support for CCL in my Makefile now
2014-04-29T08:46:28Z dim: might as well switch back to CCL
2014-04-29T08:46:36Z pjb: Otherwise, some implementation have ROOM return numerical results, that you can use to determine more precisely what function calls "leak" more memory.  (only good implementations such as clisp and abcl do).  Perhaps other implementations have an implementation specific API to get the used up memory so far.
2014-04-29T08:47:22Z dim: also what would you make of that room output from sbcl:
2014-04-29T08:47:23Z dim:   25,532,128 bytes for 1,595,758 cons objects.
2014-04-29T08:47:26Z dim:   163,661,520 bytes for 3,016,063 dynamic objects (space total.)
2014-04-29T08:47:41Z dim: (yeah I omitted plenty of lines)
2014-04-29T08:47:56Z pjb: Well, again, clisp gives much more detailed information.
2014-04-29T08:48:10Z pjb: You should not use sbcl to develop, it's like stalin.  Just good to generate fast code.
2014-04-29T08:48:27Z dim: I'm so glad I've heard about stalin being a CL compiler before ;-)
2014-04-29T08:48:34Z pjb: stalin is a scheme compiler.
2014-04-29T08:48:34Z dim: (well, scheme, actually, right?)
2014-04-29T08:48:36Z dim: yeah
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2014-04-29T08:49:17Z pjb: So you have a lot of lists.  Perhaps that's what you're leakign?
2014-04-29T08:49:30Z dim: I really was worried about doing all my testing against CCL and ship SBCL images, but I've improved on testing enough that I could envision that nowadays
2014-04-29T08:49:36Z dim: about clisp I'm yet to use it at all
2014-04-29T08:50:00Z dim: the main internal data is vectors of strings
2014-04-29T08:50:17Z pjb: Well, you need indeed to test with several implementations while developing, to make sure you didn't introduce inadvertantly non-conforming code.
2014-04-29T08:50:22Z dim: I need a code review to find where I'm building that many lists at runtime
2014-04-29T08:50:51Z dim: yeah non-conforming code, there's that too, I regulary test against ccl and sbcl for now
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2014-04-29T09:12:49Z leo2007: when the system cl+ssl is loaded I need to do something. So I used this http://bpaste.net/show/245676, but I don't know how to specify component. Ideas?
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2014-04-29T09:13:58Z pjb: Perhaps something like: (component (eql (find-system :cl+ssl)))
2014-04-29T09:14:15Z pjb: otherwise you would have to define a specific system or component subclass for cl+ssl./
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2014-04-29T09:17:14Z leo2007: I need a way to optionally depends on cl+ssl. i.e. I want my to load cl+ssl; if not available don't err.
2014-04-29T09:17:20Z leo2007: depend*
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2014-04-29T09:20:49Z splittist: does cl+ssl put anything on features?
2014-04-29T09:20:50Z pjb: (ignore-errors (ql:quickload 'cl+ssl)) (when (find-package "CL+SSL") (pushnew :cl+ssl *features*))  (defsystem … (:depends-on #+cl+ssl :cl+ssl) …)
2014-04-29T09:20:51Z dim: is there an equivalent to sb-ext:*save-hooks* in ccl?
2014-04-29T09:21:16Z pjb: No reference to *features* in cl+ssl sources.
2014-04-29T09:21:41Z pjb: dim: yes.
2014-04-29T09:22:04Z dim: thanks ;-)
2014-04-29T09:22:58Z pjb: dim: http://paste.lisp.org/+31TH
2014-04-29T09:23:07Z splittist: pjb: OK. asdf 3 has an :if-feature annotation which you can use instead of the #+cl+ssl reader feature.
2014-04-29T09:23:24Z dim: oh nice, thanks pjb
2014-04-29T09:23:40Z dim read the first line as "RTFM" and was doing that already
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2014-04-29T09:29:51Z leo2007: splittist: no
2014-04-29T09:31:07Z leo2007: pjb: this could work.
2014-04-29T09:37:01Z leo2007: is there a better way to write (coerce (loop :repeat count :collect (code-char (read-byte s))) 'string)
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2014-04-29T09:43:50Z pjb: leo2007: (read-sequence (make-string count))
2014-04-29T09:44:06Z pjb: Oh, you're reading a binary stream.
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2014-04-29T09:45:01Z pjb: leo2007: (map 'string (function code-char) (read-sequence (make-array count :element-type your-byte-type))) uses less memory, since lists use twice the memory vectors do.
2014-04-29T09:45:46Z pjb: I would do: (loop with buffer = (make-string count) for i below count do (setf (aref buffer i) (code-char (read-byte s))) finally (return buffer))
2014-04-29T09:46:00Z pjb: So no additionnal buffer is allocated.
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2014-04-29T09:46:40Z pjb: But the map 'string above would be faster, if count is big.
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2014-04-29T09:48:31Z leo2007: pjb: thanks
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2014-04-29T09:50:49Z leo2007: how to stuff a default implementation in a (defgeneric ..) form?
2014-04-29T09:51:16Z leo2007: basically I need the default to err if no speciliers available
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2014-04-29T09:54:37Z pjb: (defgeneric f (arg) (:method ((arg t)) :default-result)) (f 'hi) --> :default-result
2014-04-29T09:55:03Z pjb: You can also write: (defgeneric f (arg) (:method (arg) (declare (ignore arg)) :default-result))
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2014-04-29T10:02:16Z leo2007: pjb: thanks again.
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2014-04-29T12:12:56Z dim: The effect of changing the value of *terminal-io*, either by binding or assignment, is implementation-defined. -- no with-output-to-string for me in CCL then, as it looks?
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2014-04-29T12:15:10Z dim: (with-output-to-string (*terminal-io*) (write-string "foo" *terminal-io*)) is "foo", but (with-output-to-string (*terminal-io*) (ccl:describe-character-encodings)) is "" and the description has been spit out on the terminal
2014-04-29T12:16:08Z dim: ok the docs are wrong, I need to capture *standard-output*
2014-04-29T12:16:13Z dim: the code is using (format t ...)
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2014-04-29T12:48:38Z pjb: dim: changing *terminal-io* is implementation dependant, because 1- other standard streams may refer it or not, 2- other features of the implementations may use or not the binding of *terminal-io* to communicate with the user (either thru *query-io* or not), such as the debugger.
2014-04-29T12:49:03Z dim: ok, thanks
2014-04-29T12:49:11Z pjb: dim: but that doesn't mean that you may not bind it, in a specific implementation, to get specific redirections of I/O.
2014-04-29T12:49:17Z dim: apparently I don't need to divert it tho, it's just a doc problem
2014-04-29T12:49:40Z pjb: Now, you should probably not bind it to a unidirectional stream such as obtained with with-output-to-string.
2014-04-29T12:50:26Z pjb: You should do (with-input-from-string (in "") (with-output-to-string (out) (let ((*terminal-io* (make-two-way-stream in out))) …)))
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2014-04-29T12:51:07Z pjb: or use *standard-input* or use handler-bind to rebind it before invoking the debugger, etc.
2014-04-29T12:51:40Z pjb: And yes, in general, you don't need to touch *terminal-io*.
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2014-04-29T12:51:46Z dim: yeah, but as I said, in fact I don't need to divert it
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2014-04-29T12:51:53Z dim: which is good news
2014-04-29T12:52:27Z pjb: *terminal-io* is a little like /dev/tty, vs. /dev/stdout + /dev/stdin.  The later can be redirected, but /dev/tty always refers to the terminal.
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2014-04-29T12:53:23Z dim: btw, is it possible to have a stream such that you can write to it then read from it from the beginning?
2014-04-29T12:53:59Z dim: I'm currently using a form like (let ((file-content (get-output-stream-string (read-lines filename)))) (with-input-from-string (s file-content) ...))
2014-04-29T12:54:29Z dim: (where read-lines support included files with a \i syntax)
2014-04-29T12:54:58Z dim: full sources at https://github.com/dimitri/pginstall/blob/master/src/repo/read-sql-files.lisp if you want more context
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2014-04-29T12:56:42Z pjb: This is not possible with COMMON-LISP stream operators.
2014-04-29T12:56:55Z dim: thanks, that was my understanding too
2014-04-29T12:56:55Z pjb: For this you need to use Gray Streams.
2014-04-29T12:57:20Z pjb: And if you don't want to use an infinite buffer, you need also to have threads (so that you can write and read "at the same time").
2014-04-29T12:58:02Z dim: well in that very case buffering the whole thing shouldn't come to be a problem, so that's fine, but in the general case, I would switch to Gray Streams and have the consumer ask for more from the reader when needed
2014-04-29T12:58:03Z pjb: Notice that you couldn't use a pipe (with two lisp streams) without having threads either, because you'd reach the same deadlock.
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2014-04-29T12:58:39Z dim: you can have a windowed buffer without threads, by doing it the classic parser way (lex/yacc) where the parser asks for more input when it's done with the current one
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2014-04-29T12:59:09Z dim: it could be argued that's the proper way to do it, even
2014-04-29T12:59:12Z pjb: And if you don't have threads, (or at least co-routines), how do you run the consumer?
2014-04-29T12:59:24Z dim: but in that case I really don't expect the SQL source code not to fit in memory
2014-04-29T12:59:26Z pjb: Or vice versa.
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2014-04-29T12:59:40Z dim: do you know how yacc calls into lex to get more?
2014-04-29T12:59:47Z pjb: In the case of yacc, the lexer always produce a small about of data (less than the buffer size).
2014-04-29T13:00:01Z dim: yeah, and there's a "give me more" API
2014-04-29T13:00:09Z pjb: But when you call write or write-sequence, you can always go over the buffer size, whatever it may be.
2014-04-29T13:00:30Z dim: I think we're talking past each other
2014-04-29T13:00:36Z pjb: No. Think about it!
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2014-04-29T13:00:48Z pjb: Or just spend two days trying to implement it.
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2014-04-29T13:01:13Z dim: just have the parser ask the reader for more when its position is at the current end of the buffer
2014-04-29T13:01:41Z dim: maybe you're telling me you can't do that with the Gray Stream API that I don't know yet?
2014-04-29T13:01:54Z pjb: If the producer produces always the same amount of data at the same time the consumer consumes it, that is, if they are synchronous processes, then you don't need a pipe.
2014-04-29T13:02:03Z dim: like compare current size and position, then let the reader add more to it and start parsing again?
2014-04-29T13:02:05Z pjb: When you're in the case of yacc/lexx.
2014-04-29T13:02:18Z dim: I'm specifically talking about single-process here
2014-04-29T13:02:21Z pjb: Then you can just call the producer function to get one more item.
2014-04-29T13:02:50Z dim: exactly
2014-04-29T13:02:55Z pjb: But as soon as the consumer and producer are asynchronous, that is, the producer may produce less or more data than expected by the consumer, then buffering and PROCESSES are needed.
2014-04-29T13:03:09Z dim: again, I was only considering the single-process case
2014-04-29T13:03:19Z pjb: When you can just call the producer for one more item, you don't really need the stream API.
2014-04-29T13:03:25Z dim: that too
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2014-04-29T13:14:23Z Sanadora: clhs princ
2014-04-29T13:14:23Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_wr_pr.htm
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2014-04-29T13:29:10Z samebchase: dim: I like how you've named this function: https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/blob/master/src/utils.lisp#L299
2014-04-29T13:29:39Z dim: hehe, thx
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2014-04-29T13:58:12Z bhyde deletes his ~/.cache/common-lisp and wonders if any of the lisp implementations try to memory map portions of the fasl file rather than actually load it ... like a shared library.
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2014-04-29T14:03:49Z puchacz: hi, if I POST a form, and there are validation errors, I want to redirect back to the form, but redirect is GET. There are limitations on URL size so it does not sound like a good idea to GET the whole form content. how am I to solve it please?
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2014-04-29T14:06:03Z puchacz: stack overflow says do not make URLs longer than 2000 characters
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2014-04-29T14:09:10Z stassats: you can save the state on your side
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2014-04-29T14:10:12Z puchacz: stassats: server side?
2014-04-29T14:10:22Z stassats: if that's your side
2014-04-29T14:10:46Z puchacz: I am not following the last comment
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2014-04-29T14:30:16Z pjb: puchacz: redirect is get, but the page you redirect to contains a form that uses any method you want.
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2014-04-29T14:31:21Z stassats: pjb: the problem is with preserving the inputted data
2014-04-29T14:31:48Z stassats: which, as i said, can be solved by preserving the state on the other side
2014-04-29T14:31:52Z pjb: Indeed.
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2014-04-29T14:32:13Z stassats: and use get with a hash referring that data
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2014-04-29T14:44:10Z stassats: pesky defvar, can't specify documentation to it while leaving the variable unbound
2014-04-29T14:45:07Z Shinmera: Well you can always setf the documentation
2014-04-29T14:45:33Z stassats: i was complaining about the defvar macro specifically
2014-04-29T14:45:49Z Shinmera: It is a minor inconvenience, yes.
2014-04-29T14:46:07Z stassats: i used a comment instead
2014-04-29T14:47:13Z pjb: unbound variables are bitches.
2014-04-29T14:47:21Z pjb: Always bind them!
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2014-04-29T14:47:32Z stassats: no
2014-04-29T14:47:42Z Zhivago: javascript had the right idea with undefined. ;)
2014-04-29T14:47:54Z Shinmera: Unbound variables are useful if they should only be bound within a certain environment.
2014-04-29T14:48:19Z Zhivago: They're important for linkage between different files.
2014-04-29T14:51:42Z Zhivago: e.g., for defvar.
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2014-04-29T15:02:46Z puchacz: pjb: true, but I want to prepopulate the form with last user's inputs and highlight errors
2014-04-29T15:03:30Z puchacz: pjb: I think I will just generate HTML on post, without redirecting. s0d it :-)
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2014-04-29T15:05:42Z pjb: Yes, it'll be simplier.
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2014-04-29T15:07:00Z puchacz: I usually avoid generating HTML on POST without redirecting because browsers show some messages on user actions like refresh.
2014-04-29T15:07:09Z puchacz: but who wants to refresh a form during editing
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2014-04-29T15:13:26Z leo2007: does the standard have something for like eamcs's system-type?
2014-04-29T15:13:59Z stassats: clhs m-t
2014-04-29T15:13:59Z specbot: machine-type: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mach_t.htm
2014-04-29T15:14:06Z Krystof: or (software-type)
2014-04-29T15:14:06Z leo2007: stassats: thakns
2014-04-29T15:14:11Z leo2007: thanks*
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2014-04-29T15:15:21Z leo2007: this seems to be related to hardware.
2014-04-29T15:15:52Z rszeno: puchacz, yes url size is limited but the value is specific to the server, depending of sever usualy can be changed
2014-04-29T15:16:34Z leo2007: software-type
2014-04-29T15:16:35Z puchacz: rszeno: nw, I just settled on rendering page with form on POST
2014-04-29T15:16:38Z pjb: (list (lisp-implementation-type) (lisp-implementation-version) (software-type) (software-version) (machine-type) (machine-version) (machine-instance)) --> ("emacs" #1="24.3.1" "unknown-linux-gnu" #1# "x86_64" "x86_64" "kuiper.lan.informatimago.com")
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2014-04-29T15:17:11Z pjb: (list (lisp-implementation-type) (lisp-implementation-version) (software-type)
2014-04-29T15:17:11Z pjb: (software-version) (machine-type) (machine-version) (machine-instance)) --> ("Clozure Common Lisp" "Version 1.9-r15757  (Linuxx8664)" "Linux" "3.2.0-4-amd64" "x86_64" "Intel(R) Core(TM) i7 CPU         950  @ 3.07GHz" "kuiper")
2014-04-29T15:17:37Z nyef: ... Quick, someone make a "belt" joke!
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2014-04-29T15:18:14Z stassats: => ("SBCL" "1.0.99.999" "Linux" "3.0.15-1056084" "ARM" "ARMv7 Processor rev 1 (v7l)" "android-xxxxxx")
2014-04-29T15:18:16Z pjb: leo2007:  have a look at (com.informatimago.tools.manifest:distribution).
2014-04-29T15:18:48Z pjb: nyef: indeed. I name my hosts for moons of Neptune :-)
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2014-04-29T15:20:06Z nyef: ... I'd do the same thing that stassats just did, but I've got something going on my Pi and don't want to risk running out of RAM by spinning up a new SBCL instance.
2014-04-29T15:20:16Z pjb: (ql:quickload :com.informatimago.tools.manifest) (com.informatimago.tools.manifest:distribution) --> (:linux :debian "7.4")
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2014-04-29T15:24:09Z pjb: nyef: you can add swap while running! mount nas:/some-storage /mnt/swap2 ; swapon /mnt/swap2/swap ;-)
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2014-04-29T15:25:19Z nyef: So, create a large empty file on my sdcard, mkswap it, and swapon?
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2014-04-29T15:25:49Z leo2007: pjb: thanks
2014-04-29T15:25:52Z nyef: Hunh. Actually, it looks like I already have some swap, though not much.
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2014-04-29T15:26:30Z pjb: nyef: yes, you can also do that on a sdcard.
2014-04-29T15:26:40Z pjb: Is it faster than your network?
2014-04-29T15:27:08Z dim: Xach: do you remember having had problem with the zip system when using its zip.tgz version rather than a recent csv checkout?
2014-04-29T15:27:12Z nyef: It has the advantage that it's already set up, as opposed to trying to figure out how to set up and hit a fileshare.
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2014-04-29T15:27:21Z pjb: unix is great. Somebody once mounted a tape as swap :-)
2014-04-29T15:27:50Z dim: I'm currently having a problem where asdf wants to load "gray.lisp.lisp" and I see a different version of the zip.asd file in Quicklisp...
2014-04-29T15:28:18Z nyef: Isn't that how early Lisp GCs worked? Save all of the live data to tape, then reinitialize the heap from the contents of the tape?
2014-04-29T15:28:33Z foom: Huh? Pretty sure swap needs to be a block devices, and tape isn't a block device.
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2014-04-29T15:28:58Z pjb: Not early GC, that just was the way people used those lisp machines, with the garbage collector disabled, and a nightly save and load image.
2014-04-29T15:29:20Z pjb: foom: sure you can have block devices to access tapes.
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2014-04-29T15:32:28Z drewc: which lisp machine had the 'save core are reboot' GC? I remember that from emulation.
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2014-04-29T15:34:14Z drewc thinks that they likely all did and he just knows of one or two that he used for :FUN
2014-04-29T15:35:01Z pjb: you could do the same in eg. sbcl, disable the gc, and save-lisp-and-die from time to time.
2014-04-29T15:35:46Z stassats: save-lisp-and-die performs garbage collection
2014-04-29T15:35:47Z foom: AFAIK, lisp machines all had a GC, it's just that you didn't want it to get invoked, because it might take a few minutes, and that was annoying.
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2014-04-29T15:36:34Z drewc: ISTR needing that for a certain project ... i think it was allegro and no GC was kind of the goal of the app itself.
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2014-04-29T18:22:11Z drmeister: Hey lispers - I got Memory Pool System garbage collection working with my Common Lisp system.
2014-04-29T18:22:26Z drmeister: That was a tough row to hoe.
2014-04-29T18:23:32Z drmeister: I'd recommend that anyone who wants to write a Lisp start with a garbage collector.   Don't try to add one later on.  No matter how careful you are it's gonna bite you.
2014-04-29T18:24:02Z stassats: and how good is it?
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2014-04-29T18:28:01Z drmeister: It will be great - MPS has a bunch of different garbage collectors built into it.  I'm using the Automatic Mark and Sweep pool at the moment because, well, one step at a time.   The one I'll switch too soon is Automatic Mostly Copying, a moving, compacting GC.
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2014-04-29T18:31:16Z drmeister: The first hurdle was to integrate MPS.  Switching to the AMC (automatic mostly copying) GC will be a more stringent test of my GC interface because pointers will be changing as the program runs.  Also I have to update #'eq hash-tables so that they rehash whenever their pointers change.
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2014-04-29T18:35:17Z drmeister: I'm just recompiling everything.  Soon I'll be able to benchmark the environment running with GC vs reference counting.  I really, really hope it's faster.
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2014-04-29T18:39:44Z prxq: drmeister: interesting. You'd recomend starting with MPS?
2014-04-29T18:41:46Z drmeister: prxq:  Sure - they seem to know what they are doing wrt garbage collection.   I don't know of anything better.
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2014-04-29T18:42:06Z stassats: prxq: i'd start with writing my own
2014-04-29T18:42:10Z stassats: to get a hang at it
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2014-04-29T18:43:45Z drmeister: I'm happy to leave those details to the experts.
2014-04-29T18:44:05Z stassats: that's a no way to become an expert
2014-04-29T18:44:46Z drmeister: My currently big problem is that LLVM doesn't handle precise garbage collection.  There are people working on this though.
2014-04-29T18:46:30Z drmeister: stassats: A problem I see with Common Lisp is that all of the implementations reinvented too many wheels.
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2014-04-29T18:47:01Z stassats: that's good
2014-04-29T18:47:01Z drmeister: I want to do one thing really well - interoperate with the LLVM ecosystem - especially C/C++/ObjC.
2014-04-29T18:47:56Z Shinmera: A thing I like about Common Lisp is that everyone is making their (slightly different) wheels. So many wheels to choose from.
2014-04-29T18:48:19Z foom: drmeister: what does Rust do?
2014-04-29T18:48:21Z drmeister: Oh that's funny.    I was wondering why I was not getting any object finalization messages from MPS - they all happen when I shutdown clasp.
2014-04-29T18:48:21Z stassats: see what happened to openssl
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2014-04-29T18:48:42Z foom: (regarding GC)
2014-04-29T18:48:50Z foom: I thought they had implemented a precise GC, and they use LLVM.
2014-04-29T18:49:00Z foom: But I have not looked in detail
2014-04-29T18:49:10Z drmeister: foom: They hacked LLVM to implement precise GC.   I don't want to hack LLVM.
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2014-04-29T18:49:22Z foom: Can't you just use the same hack they already did?
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2014-04-29T18:50:19Z drmeister: Epoch is another language that hacked LLVM a different way to get precise GC.
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2014-04-29T18:50:57Z drmeister: I'll be using conservative GC on the stack and precise GC on the heap until precise GC is handled properly by LLVM.
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2014-04-29T18:52:41Z drmeister: foom: I'm not sure - I haven't looked into the hacks that carefully.   I believe that what Epoch did would not be suitable for me.   They GC just a handful of kinds of objects.   I have more than 350 kinds of objects.
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2014-04-29T18:54:01Z drmeister: I'm not sure what I said is completely relevant to the question of why don't I use their approach.   Bottom line: MPS is perfectly happy using conservative-stack/precise-heap GC and I'm perfectly happy to use that until a straightforward precise GC approach is implemented in LLVM.
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2014-04-29T18:54:31Z foom: right.
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2014-04-29T18:59:46Z drmeister: The heavy lifting has been done - I have a working C++ static analyzer that analyzes my 167 source files, identifies global and local variables writes C++ scanner functions for everything.  The precise-stack vs conservative-stack GC is just a question of establishing safe-points in the code and constructing and getting access to stack maps of pointers.  Oh - there's one tricky thing still, getting Clang to give me stack maps - that will pro
2014-04-29T18:59:46Z drmeister: bably require writing a plugin for Clang.  A problem for another day.
2014-04-29T19:02:14Z stassats: drmeister: can i use it to parse c++ headers?
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2014-04-29T19:03:48Z drmeister: stassats: Absolutely - and better than any other way, and you can do it with Common Lisp code.   As a side-product I developed way to refactor C++ by writing Common Lisp programs.
2014-04-29T19:03:59Z stassats: when can i do that?
2014-04-29T19:06:07Z drmeister: As soon as I release this.   Did you see the video I made about 2 months back on the topic?
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2014-04-29T19:10:01Z stassats: no
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2014-04-29T19:11:04Z drmeister: No problem, it was long, the font was too small and the sound was too low.    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h31pURzgYX8
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2014-04-29T19:11:48Z stassats: i'm rather interested in code, not video
2014-04-29T19:11:51Z drmeister: It got 1399 views and if you watch it then I'll hit 1400 and I might get another hug from my daughter.  She was very proud when her daddy got a 100 youtube views.
2014-04-29T19:12:09Z stassats: i want to use to generate better qt bindings
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2014-04-29T19:12:22Z Fare: yes, the video was very promising. Of course it only flew over a lot of details, but it was very promising
2014-04-29T19:12:27Z drmeister is interested in hugs
2014-04-29T19:12:59Z rszeno i can hug you, :)
2014-04-29T19:13:08Z Fare: I can give you a hug when you're in NYC (or in Paris or Montreal — will you be a ELS 2014 or ILC 2014 ?), but they are probably not as nice as your daughter's.
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2014-04-29T19:13:52Z drmeister should be more specific about who he is interested in hugs from
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2014-04-29T19:15:12Z rszeno no need, was obvious
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2014-04-29T19:15:34Z drmeister: stassats: It will work exactly as you want it.  I'm scraping all kinds of details out of my code. It's really, really powerful.
2014-04-29T19:16:48Z rszeno: drmeister: any idea when will be released?
2014-04-29T19:16:51Z drmeister: It's basically the front end of Clang, it reads the code, generates an AST and then you write Common Lisp code to match patterns in the AST and you write lambdas to build whatever you want from it.
2014-04-29T19:17:28Z drmeister: rszeno: Soon.   I uploaded it to github yesterday - it's currently private.   I'm going to kick the tires of the garbage collector for maybe a week or so and then release it.
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2014-04-29T19:17:46Z rszeno: ok, thank you
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2014-04-29T19:19:00Z drmeister: I'll probably release it with the Mark and Sweep GC.   Once I fix a few bugs I can switch over to the copying GC.   I just tried it - it crashed horribly - I have a bit more work to do there.
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2014-04-29T19:19:27Z Fare: drmeister, your implementation looks really promiseful in general. Does it run ASDF yet?
2014-04-29T19:19:27Z jazzsuite: hello, I'm new to lisp (and functional languages) but I don't know much about them except some reading online I've done. I have background in different languages, I've programmed a lot in Python, C, C++. My question is, is there any practical benefit to using functional languages (particularly lisp) in development (not in CS study or academia)?
2014-04-29T19:19:34Z Fare: patches accepted
2014-04-29T19:19:59Z stassats: jazzsuite: lisp is not particularly functional
2014-04-29T19:20:13Z Fare: jazzsuite, there's a yearly conference commercial users of functional languages, where they'd say emphatically YES
2014-04-29T19:20:46Z Fare: lisp is more functional than your average language, which is still much less functional than your typical "functional language"
2014-04-29T19:21:10Z jazzsuite: mmm - I do have a lot of reading to do :)
2014-04-29T19:21:26Z Fare: Clojure is a more functional lisp than CL. So is Racket, and so are other Scheme dialects.
2014-04-29T19:21:31Z drmeister: Fare: I haven't tried ASDF yet.
2014-04-29T19:21:55Z Fare: drmeister, please include ASDF in your release.
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2014-04-29T19:22:32Z stassats: quicklisp comes with its own asdf, why include?
2014-04-29T19:22:36Z jasom: jazzsuite: There are many advantages to common-lisp; as compared with python the biggest 2 are probably code-as-data and performance; as compared with C and c++ it's all the advantages of python, plus code-as-data.  You can write highly functional code in Python (though it's neutered lambda expression makes that slightly harder)
2014-04-29T19:22:37Z Fare: it was not too hard porting it from ECL to MKCL; porting it to your clasp (or whichever the name) should be relatively simple.
2014-04-29T19:22:45Z jazzsuite: Sorry I don't think I meant functional. I should had said "lisp-like languages" and lisp.
2014-04-29T19:23:09Z Fare: lisp is very lisp-like indeed
2014-04-29T19:23:53Z jazzsuite: I am saying that because I think about langauges like Haskell too, which are the "kind" of languages I am trying to point at
2014-04-29T19:23:53Z Fare: stassats, so that (require "asdf") should work, and in general CL scripts.
2014-04-29T19:24:08Z jasom: jazzsuite: haskell and lisp couldn't be more different IMO
2014-04-29T19:24:08Z Fare: not every uses quicklisp
2014-04-29T19:24:30Z stassats: i don't, for instance
2014-04-29T19:24:56Z stassats: but i can also fetch asdf on my own
2014-04-29T19:25:07Z jazzsuite: jasom: perhaps I have more reading to do than I thought. is this a good place to ask where to start (resource recommendation) or should I search online?
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2014-04-29T19:26:30Z Fare: stassats, there's a bootstrap problem if you download asdf on your own, in addition to being a higher barrier to entry: loading asdf as source is much slower, and compiling it is a sharing hazard if the output-translations are not available yet to put them aside.
2014-04-29T19:26:35Z jasom: jazzsuite: here's a good outsider's view of lisp macros http://lists.warhead.org.uk/pipermail/iwe/2005-July/000130.html
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2014-04-29T19:26:46Z Fare: really, it's the right thing for implementations to provide a precompiled asdf.
2014-04-29T19:27:26Z Fare: happily, they all do (except unmaintained / obsolete ones)
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2014-04-29T19:27:38Z jazzsuite: jasom:  thanks.
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2014-04-29T19:30:15Z drmeister: Hmm, it looks like I'm going to have to switch to automatic mostly copying sooner rather than later.   The mark-and-sweep collector is slowing waaaay down as it load more of my compiler. (sigh)
2014-04-29T19:31:59Z Fare: drmeister, once you abide by the MPS interface, isn't it just a switch to go from one collector to the other?
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2014-04-29T19:33:39Z drmeister: Fare: Yes - but when I just switched - it crashed.   So I've got a problem somewhere.
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2014-04-29T19:38:03Z drmeister: It will be interesting debugging this.
2014-04-29T19:38:21Z Fare: drmeister, one collector has more stringer invariants than the other to enforce?
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2014-04-29T19:38:40Z drmeister: stringer invariants?
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2014-04-29T19:39:14Z drmeister: I think I know what you are asking.
2014-04-29T19:39:14Z jasom: jazzsuite: I'm not sure the best place to look for "why haskell is practical"  maybe #haskell?
2014-04-29T19:39:28Z nyef: stronger invariants?
2014-04-29T19:39:54Z stassats: stringent?
2014-04-29T19:40:07Z nyef: Or that. Portmanteau words are fun.
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2014-04-29T19:41:19Z drmeister: I've been watching my system run, the AMS pool hasn't been freeing much memory and so problems won't show up if I'm underscanning.   The copying GC is constantly moving memory around - if I miss one pointer then it's more likely to crash with the AMC pool
2014-04-29T19:41:30Z stassats: or maybe it was a reference to a certain tv character
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2014-04-29T19:46:01Z drmeister: The crash could also be due to the one problem that I know about - I'm not rehashing #'eq hash-tables when their pointers move around.
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2014-04-29T20:33:48Z drmeister: Ho-boy. I think C++ stl::map is not going to work at all with a moving garbage collector. As in map<X*,int>.  I'll have to switch to hash-tables that rehash after index pointers go stale.  Any thoughts?
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2014-04-29T20:43:58Z jasom: drmeister: you do a remove and reinsert when the pointer changes?
2014-04-29T20:44:18Z katlogic: Or perhaps more generic approach, like handles in V8
2014-04-29T20:44:59Z jasom: boost might have something; I'm 99% sure that stl doesn't
2014-04-29T20:45:28Z drmeister: Can I find the element to remove it after the pointer changes?
2014-04-29T20:45:37Z jasom: drmeister: you need the old value of the pointer
2014-04-29T20:45:56Z ggole: When the pointer changes is too late, surely
2014-04-29T20:45:56Z jasom: drmeister: perhaps hook in when the copy hapens?
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2014-04-29T20:46:41Z jasom: alternatively you could give all objects a unique ID and hash by that rather then by pointer
2014-04-29T20:46:53Z jasom: it's a pain to do that though, since temporally pointers are unique IDs
2014-04-29T20:46:54Z nyef: Sounds like you need a pointer that gets updated by the GC and a pointer that doesn't, so you can see if the GC has flipped or not...
2014-04-29T20:47:27Z jasom: how do other lisp implementations handle that?  They nearly all use copying GC
2014-04-29T20:47:43Z drmeister: jasom: Yeah - I'll have lost the original pointer after the pointer changes.  I don't have too many maps that index on pointers and when I do they are almost always Symbols - maybe I'll leave the Symbols in an AMS pool where they won't move.
2014-04-29T20:47:56Z jasom: You could also cheat and hash by something other than the pointer, and then use eql to compare when there is a collision
2014-04-29T20:47:57Z katlogic: Usual solution is simply 'dont move stuff captured by C++ state'.
2014-04-29T20:48:08Z jasom: katlogic: no I mean how do #'eq hash tables work?
2014-04-29T20:48:09Z katlogic: (and track _what_ is currently captured)
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2014-04-29T20:48:21Z jasom: katlogic: do they hash based upon the address of the object, or do something else?
2014-04-29T20:48:33Z katlogic: jasom: Ah, that. Well, gc should be aware.
2014-04-29T20:49:02Z katlogic: There are generally two worlds - lisp and c. In c world, pointers are dangerous. In lisp, gc is aware of structures (and will act accordingly).
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2014-04-29T20:49:18Z katlogic: Which means gc will traverse hashmap objects.
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2014-04-29T20:49:43Z jasom: katlogic: that doesn't answer my question; when a symbol gets copied by the GC does it force all hashtables with the symbol in it to rehash?  Or does it hash based upon something other than the address?
2014-04-29T20:49:46Z drmeister: MPS has a way of dealing with this for hash tables: http://www.ravenbrook.com/project/mps/master/manual/html/guide/advanced.html#guide-advanced-location
2014-04-29T20:50:21Z jasom: drmeister: well that's probably the way to go then
2014-04-29T20:50:34Z katlogic: jasom: It is multi-stage process. First, during mark phase it notes all references to object. During sweep it will update references according to the buffer and move the object (in one step).
2014-04-29T20:50:57Z jasom: katlogic: still doesn't answer my question.  Also that's for a M&S gc, I'm talking about a copying gc
2014-04-29T20:51:10Z katlogic: Kabaka_: sequential store buffer it is called.
2014-04-29T20:51:12Z jasom: katlogic: in drmeister's implementation the references are updated, so that's not the problem
2014-04-29T20:51:21Z katlogic: jasom: I am talking about copying gc.
2014-04-29T20:51:37Z katlogic: It still does mark and sweep. Sweep phase does also move live objects recorded in SSB.
2014-04-29T20:51:39Z jasom: katlogic: a cheney copying gc won't do a mark stage
2014-04-29T20:51:57Z katlogic: You need to discover all references somehow.
2014-04-29T20:52:09Z katlogic: No matter what you call it, it will still resemble mark phase :)
2014-04-29T20:52:30Z drmeister: jasom: Yeah but during bootstrapping I don't have Common Lisp hash-tables available for a while.  It's a bootstrapping problem.    I think I'll pin Symbols in memory and maybe then I can boot to the point where I have hash-tables and then use the MPS location dependency tools.
2014-04-29T20:53:03Z jasom: katlogic: in cheny's algorithm, the mark stage is what does the move; the "mark" is just "is it in the old space, or the new space" so marking is implicit based upon the location of the object
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2014-04-29T20:53:45Z jasom: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheney's_algorithm
2014-04-29T20:53:50Z katlogic: jasom: If object is moved, it survived gc.
2014-04-29T20:53:57Z katlogic: If it is not moved, it is swept.
2014-04-29T20:54:15Z dim plays the never ending story of system dependencies
2014-04-29T20:54:17Z katlogic: We're talking about semantics, but what is important is discovery of _all_ references to object (and recording it reliably)
2014-04-29T20:54:22Z jasom:  During sweep it will update references according to the buffer and move the
2014-04-29T20:54:30Z katlogic: Yup
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2014-04-29T20:54:54Z jasom: katlogic: except that's not how Cheney's works, since the move and reference update happens in the same stage as walking the object graph
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2014-04-29T20:55:18Z katlogic: jasom: Sorry, I'm not familiar with stop-world gc, I'm talking incremental gc here.
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2014-04-29T20:55:30Z katlogic: Stop-worlds simply dont scale.
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2014-04-29T20:55:58Z jasom: katlogic: stop-world for a thread-local nursery is reasonable since it's bounded work in a single thread
2014-04-29T20:56:18Z katlogic: jasom: Ah, I see. What I'm describing is http://jayconrod.com/posts/55/a-tour-of-v8-garbage-collection
2014-04-29T20:56:29Z katlogic: ie a non-toy gc
2014-04-29T20:56:35Z jasom: katlogic: but back to the question, all of the references *are* updated, but hash-tables are storing by the incorrect hash; it looks like mps has a solution for this.
2014-04-29T20:56:41Z nyef: Yeah, world-stopping is painful when you have "too many" threads.
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2014-04-29T20:57:11Z katlogic: jasom: If you can afford stop world, simply update all references. If you need stable identity, you must base it on something else than pointer.
2014-04-29T20:57:33Z katlogic: Ie someone here said either rehash with new identity, or store it inside object.
2014-04-29T20:57:36Z jasom: katlogic: and you still haven't answered my question about how real-world lisps do it.
2014-04-29T20:57:37Z katlogic: either will work
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2014-04-29T20:58:25Z katlogic: jasom: Most implementations of moving gc are actually incremental, therefore objects in hash tables are hashed by something else than pointer. Sicne you can't afford rehashing.
2014-04-29T20:59:00Z nyef: Why can't you afford rehashing?
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2014-04-29T20:59:46Z katlogic: nyef: Badly explained, you can sur delete/remove with new pointer, but you cant rehash whole table in one go since it is incremental :)
2014-04-29T20:59:51Z jasom: katlogic: I'm pretty sure SBCL uses a multi-generational mostly-copying stop-the-world
2014-04-29T21:00:35Z nyef: jasom: Only on x86, x86-64, PPC, and SPARC. Everything else is cheneygc.
2014-04-29T21:00:51Z jasom: nyef: a non-generational cheney?
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2014-04-29T21:01:10Z nyef: Right, a simple twospace collector.
2014-04-29T21:01:12Z katlogic: jasom: SBCL still has write barriers, thus is incremental (even if the granularity might be to generations, not individual objects).
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2014-04-29T21:02:38Z jasom didn't even think that sbcl had a concurrent gc, which would be the only need for write barriers
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2014-04-29T21:03:44Z katlogic: As far i know multi-stage gcs (with more than mark/sweep steps, copy/leave etc cycles) need forward and backward write barriers.
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2014-04-29T21:04:16Z nyef: The write-barrier is actually technically optional, and is used for noting which older-generation pages can have references to younger-generation objects.
2014-04-29T21:04:24Z katlogic: Either by coloring, or by having a lot of generations and page protecting.
2014-04-29T21:05:50Z katlogic: Ah, SBCL now has true software barriers, cool.
2014-04-29T21:05:52Z katlogic: http://www.sbcl.org/gsoc2013/ideas/#sec-5.2
2014-04-29T21:07:18Z nyef: Umm... Most of that page is stuff that hasn't been done yet.
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2014-04-29T21:07:38Z katlogic: Yeah, its preliminary but nice to see its tackled.
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2014-04-29T21:24:02Z dim: are there known cases where buildapp --require fails to actually require the system?
2014-04-29T21:24:52Z Xach: I haven't heard about that. Normally if something can't be required it signals an error.
2014-04-29T21:25:09Z Xach: Maybe there's a bug, though. What are you seeing?
2014-04-29T21:25:32Z Xach has to run, will check in again
2014-04-29T21:25:51Z dim:   overwriting old FUN-INFO #<SB-C::FUN-INFO :ATTRIBUTES (FOLDABLE FLUSHABLE UNSAFELY-FLUSHABLE)> for ROTATE-BYTE
2014-04-29T21:25:53Z dim: actually
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2014-04-29T21:26:00Z dim: maybe it's the other way round here
2014-04-29T21:26:19Z dim: some dependency that I'm loading might be trying to redefine the function or something?
2014-04-29T21:27:49Z dim: it might be because I'm using an ancient SBCL version in wheeze
2014-04-29T21:27:53Z dim: wheezy, even
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2014-04-29T21:32:39Z rszeno: dim, i don't know what version is backports, did you try it?
2014-04-29T21:32:50Z dim: none
2014-04-29T21:32:59Z dim: I asked for a backport a long time ago already
2014-04-29T21:33:04Z dim: should ask to someone else
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2014-04-29T21:39:18Z rszeno: dim, if you have time and desire you can do the package and deploy it
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2014-04-29T21:41:08Z rszeno i'm still on debian 6.0
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2014-04-29T21:42:00Z dim: I don't have debian keys, being a DM rather than a DD
2014-04-29T21:42:12Z dim: I have local backports of SBCL around tho, in VMs
2014-04-29T21:42:26Z dim: apt-get build-dep sbcl && apt-get source -b sbcl has been enough
2014-04-29T21:42:33Z rszeno: i don't think is matter for backports
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2014-04-29T21:44:07Z rszeno: dim, http://backports.debian.org/Contribute/
2014-04-29T21:45:34Z dim: I'm in the middle of a debian packaging frenzy, will see about that later
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2014-04-29T21:45:52Z dim: http://pgsql.tapoueh.org/cl-debian/ has the details as of earlier tonight
2014-04-29T21:45:53Z rszeno: see alioth lisp group to avoid problems with reviews
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2014-04-29T21:47:02Z dim: yeah I've been sending emails
2014-04-29T21:47:08Z dim: received zero comment
2014-04-29T21:47:22Z dim: well except from some useful bits from Fare, who's not involved much anymore
2014-04-29T21:47:39Z dim: rszeno: are you a member of the lisp debian maintainers?
2014-04-29T21:47:45Z rszeno: is usual, ignore this
2014-04-29T21:48:19Z rszeno: i was in translation once but i give up, :)
2014-04-29T21:49:28Z rszeno: i'm disipointed by debian in last years
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2014-04-29T21:49:56Z dim: well I've not reached the point where I don't want my software in there
2014-04-29T21:49:58Z rszeno as i had seen probably fare too, :)
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2014-04-29T21:50:14Z dim: and I don't know so many other ways to have pgloader in debian apart from me doing the packaging
2014-04-29T21:50:18Z rszeno: same here but is difficult
2014-04-29T21:50:25Z dim: having to package 30+ libs is quite an hassle
2014-04-29T21:50:38Z dim: but it should benefit to others
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2014-04-29T21:50:47Z stassats: mop a-d-c
2014-04-29T21:50:47Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for a-d-c.
2014-04-29T21:50:49Z stassats: mop a-d-s
2014-04-29T21:50:49Z specbot: add-direct-subclass: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/add-direct-subclass
2014-04-29T21:50:49Z rszeno: true
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2014-04-29T21:50:53Z dim: (included some more of my CL software)
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2014-04-29T21:54:11Z dim:   Error while invoking #<COMPILE-OP NIL {10042A2913}> on #<CL-SOURCE-FILE "py-configparser" "parser">
2014-04-29T21:54:19Z dim: damn if I can spot the error in the compile log
2014-04-29T21:54:33Z rszeno: spinoff of the projects bother me mostly on debian, missing interest is somehow normal
2014-04-29T21:54:41Z dim: style warnings, plenty of them, the error, I can't see it
2014-04-29T21:55:25Z stassats: mop a-d-s
2014-04-29T21:55:25Z specbot: add-direct-subclass: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/add-direct-subclass
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2014-04-29T21:55:55Z stassats: mop a-d-s
2014-04-29T21:55:55Z specbot: add-direct-subclass: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/add-direct-subclass.html
2014-04-29T21:56:27Z rszeno: dim lintian? check if is something override
2014-04-29T21:57:13Z dim: sbcl --eval '(require :asdf) (asdf:load-system :py-configparser)' 2>&1 | grep -i error ; yeah nothing here
2014-04-29T21:57:58Z rszeno: asdf version, common-lisp-controler, usual offenders
2014-04-29T21:58:07Z dim: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142337
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2014-04-29T21:58:58Z dim: added http://paste.lisp.org/display/142337#1 with the complete log
2014-04-29T21:59:02Z dim: I'm blind to the problem
2014-04-29T21:59:10Z stassats: ; caught WARNING: ;   unrecognized declaration '(INLINE EXTEND-INPUT)
2014-04-29T21:59:19Z rszeno: #\a come from somewhere
2014-04-29T21:59:27Z stassats: ;   unrecognized declaration '(SPECIAL *LINE-NO* *CURRENT-SECTION* *FILE-NAME* ;                              *CURRENT-INPUT*)
2014-04-29T21:59:51Z stassats: using declaim instead of proclaim?
2014-04-29T21:59:58Z dim: that's a warning and it makes compilation fail?
2014-04-29T22:00:04Z stassats: sure
2014-04-29T22:00:13Z dim: http://common-lisp.net/project/py-configparser/ is the offender
2014-04-29T22:00:22Z dim: oh ok, I was looking specifically for an error
2014-04-29T22:00:27Z dim: explains my blindness
2014-04-29T22:00:58Z dim: oooh, and I've been using the 1.0.0 release, where 1.0.3 is available with fixes
2014-04-29T22:01:04Z dim: but with no tarball
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2014-04-29T22:01:16Z dim: ah, http://common-lisp.net/project/py-configparser/releases/py-configparser-1.0.3.tar.gz
2014-04-29T22:01:17Z dim: ok
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2014-04-29T22:04:33Z dim: ok 1.0.3 fixes it
2014-04-29T22:04:52Z dim: that's the problem when packaging too many libs in a too short time, I take the first tarball link
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2014-04-29T22:05:50Z dim: STYLE-WARNING: Undefined alien: "SSLv2_client_method"
2014-04-29T22:05:54Z dim: apart from that, running
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2014-04-29T22:06:11Z stassats: you can ignore that
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2014-04-29T22:08:29Z dim: I don't like that every user will see it, but yes
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2014-04-29T22:08:50Z dim: I packaged a more recent cffi so that I could package cl+ssl
2014-04-29T22:08:57Z stassats: catch all the warnings
2014-04-29T22:08:58Z dim: maybe I did something wrong there?
2014-04-29T22:09:10Z dim: handler-bind muffle-warnings?
2014-04-29T22:09:23Z stassats: that's one way
2014-04-29T22:09:57Z dim: well I'm not there yet
2014-04-29T22:10:25Z dim: the cl-pgloader (lisp sources) + pgloader (/usr/bin/pgloader, 20MB, sbcl image) packaging depends on too many libs not in debian yet
2014-04-29T22:11:00Z dim: the fact that I can actually build pgloader out of the packaging I did should be a good incentive to have it there down the road, tho
2014-04-29T22:11:16Z dim: of course now I have 30+ ITP bugs to open
2014-04-29T22:11:18Z dim: and track
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2014-04-29T22:11:36Z dim: compiled with SBCL 1.0.57.0.debian
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2014-04-29T22:20:47Z dim: ok actually we're talking about 44 packages, 2 of those being for pgloader, that's 42 new libs in debian
2014-04-29T22:23:18Z rszeno: you intend to do this for a long period of time?
2014-04-29T22:24:07Z dim: well I will need some more for pginstall, e.g. hunchentoot
2014-04-29T22:24:23Z dim: and then I intend to write a wrapper script around Quicklisp to manage the updates
2014-04-29T22:24:53Z dim: I couldn't see a good way to do the initial packaging effort directly from Quicklisp metadata, but I can see how ql:quickload + cp debian/ + debuild would work
2014-04-29T22:25:21Z dim: so each month after Xach is done releasing QL I would run a script and hopefully update all my packages
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2014-04-29T22:37:51Z Xach: you can poll the distinfo.txt URL
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2014-04-29T22:40:57Z easye: Xach:  had a bad upgrade on 2014-04-25.  But after nuking it, everything works.  Dunno if it is worth pursuing, just noting.
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2014-04-29T22:44:03Z dim: Xach: well you do monthly upgrades I believe?
2014-04-29T22:44:20Z dim: if yes I will manually do things for a couple of months before switching to all automatic
2014-04-29T22:45:52Z Xach: easye: bad how?
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2014-04-29T22:46:07Z easye: Failed to upgrade my systems cleanly.
2014-04-29T22:46:30Z Xach: ok
2014-04-29T22:46:51Z easye: It was easier to (DELETE-DIRECTORIES-RECURSIVELY #p"~/quicklisp/") to go on.
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2014-04-29T22:47:14Z easye: I have a fairly involved RESTAS/Parenscript/lsw2 stack going.
2014-04-29T22:47:26Z easye: I was happy when it cleanly compiled...
2014-04-29T22:48:02Z easye: I have the old directory to inspect if I get the time.
2014-04-29T22:48:44Z easye: This conicides with abcl-1.3.1, so clean fasls were coming anwyays.
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2014-04-29T22:50:22Z easye maybe will have time in Paris.
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2014-04-29T22:56:41Z antoszka: For a lightning talk about your stack?
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2014-04-30T00:26:15Z Xach: easye: many people reporting a badly-sized-local-archive error. it's safe to use the delete-and-retry restart.
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2014-04-30T02:04:05Z drmeister: I'm working on incorporating a moving garbage collector into my Common Lisp.   I've got to refactor my hash-tables to handle hash_eq so that they check for pointers that may have become stale.
2014-04-30T02:04:41Z drmeister: The tricky part I'm trying to wrap my head around is what do I do with hash-table on #'eql and #'equal when they fall back on hash-eq.
2014-04-30T02:06:10Z drmeister: I'm using the Memory Pool System (for those who don't know) which provides a mps_ld_t structure that keeps track of "location dependencies"
2014-04-30T02:07:34Z drmeister: The idea is in the hash-table-eq structure you store a mps_ld_t structure and whenever you generate a hash_eq(object) on the address of the object you first add the address to the mps_ld_t structure.
2014-04-30T02:08:12Z drmeister: Anyway, it's all described here http://www.ravenbrook.com/project/mps/master/manual/html/topic/location.html  for anyone who's interested in the details.
2014-04-30T02:10:52Z drmeister: Is anyone familiar with how this is covered in other Common Lisps?    Does every kind of hash-table have a location-dependecy database stored alongside it?
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2014-04-30T02:11:25Z drmeister: Does hash-table on #'equalp and #'equal ever fall back on hashing on pointer location.
2014-04-30T02:11:51Z drmeister: Yeah baby - I'm back asking Lisp questions!
2014-04-30T02:11:55Z brucem: drmeister: I might be able to point you at an alternate thing that uses MPS and has hashtables ...
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2014-04-30T02:12:45Z drmeister: Is it the language of which we do not speak it's name here?
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2014-04-30T02:12:52Z brucem: drmeister: yes.
2014-04-30T02:12:55Z p_l: ?
2014-04-30T02:12:58Z p_l: Dylan?
2014-04-30T02:13:03Z brucem: p_l: yeah.
2014-04-30T02:13:07Z drmeister: We didn't say it.
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2014-04-30T02:13:22Z ChanServ has set mode +o p_l
2014-04-30T02:13:26Z p_l: well, I said it ;)
2014-04-30T02:13:29Z drmeister: s/it's/its/g
2014-04-30T02:13:34Z p_l: and I don't recall Dylan being a no-no
2014-04-30T02:13:42Z ChanServ has set mode -o p_l
2014-04-30T02:13:47Z brucem: p_l: Some people seem butthurt by it. *shrug*
2014-04-30T02:13:48Z drmeister: It's a whiticism
2014-04-30T02:13:56Z drmeister: Not the language, the not speaking its name.
2014-04-30T02:14:01Z p_l: brucem: huh. First time I heard of it
2014-04-30T02:14:41Z drmeister: witticism - I can't spell for crap today
2014-04-30T02:14:42Z p_l: I mean, I understand if it was Nth newLISP question, or (bigger N) Nth Scheme question...
2014-04-30T02:15:13Z brucem: drmeister: https://github.com/dylan-lang/opendylan/blob/master/sources/dylan/table.dylan has one reference to primitive-mps-ld stuff ... but most of it is in https://github.com/dylan-lang/opendylan/blob/master/sources/dylan/hashing.dylan
2014-04-30T02:15:55Z drmeister: p_l: I'm encouraging brucem to encourage his friends to write an S-expression reader for Dylan.   S-expressions aren't scary anymore given Clojures popularity.
2014-04-30T02:16:22Z p_l: drmeister: wouldn't that be just "someone get the old code back to work"? ;D
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2014-04-30T02:16:26Z brucem: I've been encouraging someone to do that for more than a year. :)
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2014-04-30T02:16:39Z brucem: p_l: no ... the langauge changed a good bit after the syntax change.
2014-04-30T02:17:27Z p_l: brucem: well, the syntax itself probably doesn't impact as much, right? So getting the code up to speed would be indeed getting the old code to work with the changes in language, right? :D
2014-04-30T02:19:49Z brucem: p_l: if Open Dylan (formerly DylanWorks) ever had an actual working prefix-dylan reader, it is long lost in the source archives that aren't available (our copy of the Hope repo from Harlequin doesn't include it) ...and while LispWorks has the full Hope repo for Dylan, I am unable to get someone to agree to give it to me.
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2014-04-30T02:21:52Z brucem: p_l: (I just need gz from Clozure to send an email, but she didn't respond to my last couple of emails over the last year)
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2014-04-30T02:59:33Z zRecursive: What's those "*.d" files in ECL ?
2014-04-30T03:00:29Z zRecursive: a bit different from C ?
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2014-04-30T03:24:34Z pjb: zRecursive: yes, they're preprocessed. Same in clisp sources.
2014-04-30T03:26:01Z zRecursive: yeah, i see "@(defun ...@)" in *.d
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2014-04-30T03:28:17Z zRecursive: i am glad to see that ECL is still making progress. i built maxima and stumpwm successfuly today. stumpwm image doesnot work though
2014-04-30T03:29:24Z zRecursive: the ECL built maxima works great
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2014-04-30T03:58:20Z JuanDaugherty: zRecursive, congrats! Why didn't you use sbcl or other more common?
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2014-04-30T05:18:00Z leo2007: is there a function in sbcl to get cpu-count?
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2014-04-30T06:06:51Z zRecursive: leo2007: i just remember (ccl:cpu-count)
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2014-04-30T06:14:38Z zRecursive: leo2007: Have a look at https://github.com/nikodemus/sb-cpu-affinity/blob/master/cpu-affinity.lisp
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2014-04-30T06:20:25Z leo2007: zRecursive: thanks
2014-04-30T06:21:00Z mzgcz: leo2007, just read /proc/cpuinfo file to count the processor number in linux
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2014-04-30T06:45:54Z leo2007: yes, that could do but on mac or windows there is no /proc/
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2014-04-30T06:46:41Z leo2007: file-namestring could return something like "app\\.info.plist" i.e. the addition of \\ for "app.info.plist"
2014-04-30T06:47:03Z leo2007: what is the right way to get a plain string of basename?
2014-04-30T06:47:19Z zRecursive: leo2007: There is a general implementation in linux-files.lisp (ccl source)
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2014-04-30T06:53:19Z leo2007: cannot find anything
2014-04-30T06:53:29Z leo2007: do you remember what it looks like?
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2014-04-30T06:58:01Z leo2007: In ccl, if i call (objc:make-nsstring s) do I need to take care of its release?
2014-04-30T06:58:42Z leo2007: is there a more convenient way to make an nsstring argument?
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2014-04-30T06:59:18Z Bike: is there something like cffi's with-foreign-string?
2014-04-30T07:00:34Z leo2007: there is with-cstrs
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2014-04-30T08:37:10Z leo2007: pjb: regarding getting the basename of a file as a plainstring, do you know how to get x.info.plist instead of x\\.info.plist (noticing the \\)
2014-04-30T08:37:12Z leo2007: ?
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2014-04-30T08:42:11Z pjb:  (ccl:native-translated-namestring #P"x\\.info.plist")
2014-04-30T08:46:09Z leo2007: pjb: thanks
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2014-04-30T08:48:07Z leo2007: pjb: so file-namestring is implementation-dependent.
2014-04-30T08:48:11Z leo2007: in sbcl it has no \\
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2014-04-30T08:53:40Z pjb: Yes, almost everything in pathnames is implementation dependant.
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2014-04-30T08:59:44Z leo2007: pjb: I hope there is a collection of all these quirks ;)
2014-04-30T09:00:12Z ejt: stupid newbie question: how do I get the repl to tell me everything about a symbol?
2014-04-30T09:00:39Z z0d: probably inspect
2014-04-30T09:00:43Z z0d: ,clhs inspect
2014-04-30T09:00:51Z z0d: clhs inspect
2014-04-30T09:00:51Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_inspec.htm
2014-04-30T09:02:02Z ejt: perfect, thx
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2014-04-30T09:08:03Z pjb: ejt: to know everything about it, use (describe 'the-symbol)
2014-04-30T09:09:03Z ejt: pjb: I tried that, it told me there was no value, but not anything about the fn binding or plist
2014-04-30T09:09:08Z ejt: (using sbcl)
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2014-04-30T09:09:34Z pjb: Well, if you keep using sbcl to develop…
2014-04-30T09:09:46Z ejt: you'd recommend another?
2014-04-30T09:09:50Z ejt: I'm happy to change
2014-04-30T09:09:52Z pjb: clisp or ccl.
2014-04-30T09:10:15Z pjb: ejt: http://paste.lisp.org/+31TX
2014-04-30T09:10:36Z ejt: y, that's what I wanted
2014-04-30T09:10:40Z ejt: ok, I'll switch
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2014-04-30T09:12:21Z pjb: Not that it should be exclusive.  sbcl is good for deployments.
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2014-04-30T09:15:07Z splittist: The lisp 'community' is small enough that everyone's preferences are idiosyncratic. pjb is no exception.
2014-04-30T09:15:33Z pjb: :-)
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2014-04-30T09:18:27Z z0d: "I am the Lisp community"--Louis XIV
2014-04-30T09:18:47Z ejt: is there a test framework similar to Ruby's rspec?
2014-04-30T09:19:10Z ejt: (I know I can roll my own, just checking)
2014-04-30T09:19:21Z splittist: "apres mark, le sweep"
2014-04-30T09:19:22Z H4ns: ejt: there are many, you'll like none of them and write your own.
2014-04-30T09:19:33Z H4ns: ejt: ^ not entirely serious
2014-04-30T09:19:44Z ejt: you don't know me, that's 99% likely
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2014-04-30T09:20:10Z splittist: what is it about rspec that you would want to replicate?
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2014-04-30T09:20:29Z ejt: matchers, rather than assertions
2014-04-30T09:20:37Z ejt: and descriptive dsl
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2014-04-30T09:20:44Z ejt: let me dig out an example ...
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2014-04-30T09:21:12Z ejt: https://github.com/jthornber/device-mapper-test-suite/blob/master/spec/config_spec.rb
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2014-04-30T09:21:51Z z0d: I think most Lisp guys like to roll their own. even if we had one usable test framework, people would just try to create a better one
2014-04-30T09:22:09Z ejt: k
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2014-04-30T09:22:31Z z0d: ...instead of using a good enough library
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2014-04-30T09:25:19Z splittist: I've used 5am in the past. It seemed to allow me to easily create and maintain many, many tests, which gave me a warm and fuzzy feeling. I suspect it didn't improve the quality of my code, however (:
2014-04-30T09:26:05Z splittist: TPDD - Test Proliferation Driven Development...
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2014-04-30T09:35:35Z leo2007: which implementations use utf8 for strings by default?
2014-04-30T09:37:52Z PuercoPop: ejt: this may be what you are looking for. Haven't used it though
2014-04-30T09:37:55Z PuercoPop: https://github.com/antifuchs/clucumber
2014-04-30T09:38:41Z ejt: ah, I can use that, but cucumber is higher level
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2014-04-30T09:38:48Z ejt: use cases, rather than unit tests
2014-04-30T09:38:57Z ejt: I use cucmber a lot
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2014-04-30T09:39:31Z ejt: eg, https://github.com/jthornber/thin-provisioning-tools/blob/master/features/thin_check.feature
2014-04-30T09:39:32Z dim: the russian saying goes "every man who once ate a cucumber, died."
2014-04-30T09:40:07Z ejt: hmm, and the translation is?
2014-04-30T09:40:12Z dim: hehe
2014-04-30T09:40:30Z dim: I don't speak russian, I've been told that one by russians but in english
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2014-04-30T09:49:25Z pjb: leo2007: it would be quite dumb to use utf-8 for strings.
2014-04-30T09:49:39Z pjb: clhs string
2014-04-30T09:49:39Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_string.htm
2014-04-30T09:49:53Z pjb: it wouldn't even be conforming.
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2014-04-30T09:50:30Z dim: leo2007: what I think pjb is saying is that in CL strings are vectors of characters, so the data type to which utf-8 encoding is relevant is actually character
2014-04-30T09:51:09Z stassats: this in no way implies that utf-8 cannot be used
2014-04-30T09:51:25Z pjb: You could use utf-8 for characters, it again, it would be dumb to choose a vector of bytes of variable length rather than a 21-bit value…
2014-04-30T09:51:27Z dim: leo2007: check sb-impl::*default-external-format* for SBCL
2014-04-30T09:51:41Z dim: and I think CCL (clozure) is internally always unicode on 4 bytes
2014-04-30T09:51:53Z pjb: including the type tag.
2014-04-30T09:52:02Z stassats: dim: this is _EXTERNAL_, not internal
2014-04-30T09:52:06Z dim: oh right
2014-04-30T09:52:09Z pjb: Most implementations do. Some still have a 8-bit base-char.
2014-04-30T09:52:17Z dim: I fall way to often into that trap
2014-04-30T09:52:17Z stassats: dim: sbcl internally is 4 bytes or 1 byte
2014-04-30T09:52:30Z H4ns: leo2007: implementations that support unicode usually observe the locale settings to determine the external format
2014-04-30T09:52:47Z dim: leo2007: http://ccl.clozure.com/ccl-documentation.html#Unicode
2014-04-30T09:52:47Z stassats: and characters inside strings don't have type tags in SBCL
2014-04-30T09:53:07Z H4ns: leo2007: there are implementations which can be compiled to only support 8 bit characters (allegro), but it is becoming uncommon.
2014-04-30T09:53:18Z stassats: H4ns: sbcl as well
2014-04-30T09:53:31Z dim: also, leo2007, see http://weitz.de/cl-unicode/
2014-04-30T09:53:42Z H4ns: leo2007: the mainstream open source lisps (sbcl, ccl, clisp) have unicode support turned on by default.
2014-04-30T09:54:15Z leo2007: thanks for the info
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2014-04-30T09:55:57Z dim: if clisp really is that mainstream I should see about having explicit support for it in pgloader someday
2014-04-30T09:56:09Z stassats: it's not
2014-04-30T09:56:12Z dim: as soon as buildapp has support for it maybe ;-)
2014-04-30T09:56:19Z H4ns: dim: it is mainstream because pjb is the smuggest of all lispers
2014-04-30T09:56:26Z H4ns: dim: he is a stream by himself
2014-04-30T09:56:28Z loke: dim: does your pgloader use postmodern?
2014-04-30T09:57:01Z pjb: There are a lot more clisp users than just me.  By the way, these times I work on a MacOSX application, so I'm actually using ccl much more than clisp.
2014-04-30T09:57:05Z dim: so it's mainstream on #lisp by weighted average of lines/people ;-)
2014-04-30T09:57:08Z nydel: hello you crazy lispergers patients how in the world are you
2014-04-30T09:57:15Z dim: loke: indeed
2014-04-30T09:57:31Z H4ns: pjb: right.  the ones that you try to pursuade into using clisp, before they recognize it sucks :)
2014-04-30T09:57:38Z loke: I contributed to postmodern once! :-)
2014-04-30T09:57:39Z stassats: dim: last time the number of lines was measured, pjb took the second place
2014-04-30T09:57:43Z stassats: in #lisp
2014-04-30T09:57:54Z dim: loke: I did too, for some COPY protocol corner-cases ;-)
2014-04-30T09:57:59Z pjb: Quite surprising, isn't it.
2014-04-30T09:58:03Z loke: Clisp has one benefit: It comes with readline support :-)
2014-04-30T09:58:13Z loke: dim: I implemented Kerberos support :-)
2014-04-30T09:58:18Z dim: well those days it's all about SLIME I would believe
2014-04-30T09:58:21Z pjb: also screen and keyboard support.
2014-04-30T09:58:34Z pjb: You don't need to load curses and termios to do interesting things in the terminal with clisp.
2014-04-30T09:58:47Z dim: that's a major selling point to me now, pjb
2014-04-30T09:59:07Z dim: I mean for real, as I want to code some classic console like game with my kids to have an opportunity to teach them some computing
2014-04-30T09:59:19Z loke: The asy-of-porting argument for Clisp has been superseeded by ABCL for me, by the way.
2014-04-30T09:59:20Z dim: I might as well check out clisp to do that... does it run on RPi?
2014-04-30T09:59:31Z stassats: SBCL runs on RPi!
2014-04-30T09:59:39Z loke: As does CCL, right?
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2014-04-30T09:59:43Z pjb: Yes.
2014-04-30T09:59:45Z dim: loke: I will consider ABCL when I can produce a pgloader.jar from it
2014-04-30T09:59:56Z nydel: i'm working on a little welcome-to-my-shell-server thing using sbcl with curses & termios (will be a mud later) i wonder if clisp would be better than sbcl as i am currently using
2014-04-30T09:59:56Z dim: yeah I did install CCL on the Pi
2014-04-30T09:59:57Z pjb: I didn't try clisp on RPi, but it shouldn't be hard to compile it there.
2014-04-30T10:00:03Z dim: SBCL, didn't try yet
2014-04-30T10:00:23Z stassats: compiling sbcl with sbcl on rpi took 3-4 hours, iirc
2014-04-30T10:00:39Z pjb: You should use Qemu to compile it on a fast processor.
2014-04-30T10:00:40Z loke: ECL also runs on the pi
2014-04-30T10:00:59Z dim: seems like clisp is an apt-get away
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2014-04-30T10:01:22Z stassats: pjb: qemu is buggy and slow as hell
2014-04-30T10:01:26Z nydel: i love me some sbcl
2014-04-30T10:01:53Z dim: pjb: do you have pointers on how to play with the console in clisp?
2014-04-30T10:01:54Z stassats: and SBCL is usually cross-compiled during development
2014-04-30T10:02:31Z loke: Speaking of implementations, I've never used the commercial ones. Excluding the extra stuff like the GUI libraries, in what areas is LW better than SBCL?
2014-04-30T10:02:55Z stassats: commercial support?
2014-04-30T10:03:17Z loke: Good point.
2014-04-30T10:03:24Z H4ns: loke: they have an IDE, and you can get away doing useful things without resorting to any open source libraries
2014-04-30T10:03:27Z loke: stassats: But what about technical features?
2014-04-30T10:03:29Z stassats: you can pay someone to support SBCL, but it's not as well organized
2014-04-30T10:04:11Z loke: Is their compiler better than SBCL's? (I'm always impressed by the one in SBCL)
2014-04-30T10:04:29Z stassats: in some places, not in others
2014-04-30T10:04:56Z H4ns: loke: it depends.  i have quite some experience with ACL and what i can say is that its error messages suck.
2014-04-30T10:05:25Z loke: I love SBCL's error messages... Can I donate money to SBCL? I've regularly donated to QL, but SBCL should share some of it I think :-)
2014-04-30T10:06:29Z stassats: i think the best use of such donations would for buying hardware
2014-04-30T10:06:33Z stassats: itanium server, anyone?
2014-04-30T10:06:59Z loke: Is there a paypal account or something I can give to?
2014-04-30T10:07:23Z stassats: not that i'm aware of
2014-04-30T10:07:38Z stassats: Krystof should be the one to ask
2014-04-30T10:07:49Z stassats: or pop in #sbcl
2014-04-30T10:07:49Z easye: loke:  the CLF is working hard to setup an umbrella for things like that.
2014-04-30T10:07:50Z loke: OK, I'll ask when he shows up
2014-04-30T10:07:51Z nydel: i've never given money to sbcl. but i'd like to.
2014-04-30T10:08:14Z loke: nydel: I think I've given a few hundred USD in total to QL
2014-04-30T10:08:16Z easye: We're not ready just yet, but hopefully over the course of the Summer.
2014-04-30T10:08:39Z loke: Not much, but at least I try to show my appreciation
2014-04-30T10:09:11Z stassats: when the ARM port is in a better state, i consider making an application (which doesn't require rooting, comes with slime you can connect from the desktop, etc.) and selling it for a couple of bucks
2014-04-30T10:09:12Z nydel: good for you loke, if everyone gave that much to each project they appreciate the world might be in pretty neat shape
2014-04-30T10:09:44Z nydel: i've given thousands of dollars to some piece of junk long term strategy game on my iphone and i HATE it. but it's addictive.
2014-04-30T10:09:53Z loke: nydel: I've been trying to get my employer to donate to projects we use, but it's not easy penetrating corporate structures.
2014-04-30T10:10:12Z loke: nydel: Which one? (I need to know what not to buy)
2014-04-30T10:10:29Z nydel: it's "the hobbit: kingdoms of middle-earth" by kabam
2014-04-30T10:10:41Z stassats: don't buy anything with in-app purchases
2014-04-30T10:10:47Z nydel: but beware: kabam has a handful of the same game with different aesthetics
2014-04-30T10:10:55Z stassats: "do you like to buy a Quicklisp module?"
2014-04-30T10:10:59Z loke: I've donated to a handful of mobile applications that I use. Like the XBMC remote and Beyondpod
2014-04-30T10:11:15Z nydel: they rope you in with this super-elegant really fun long-term strategy model, a lot like grepolis but much better
2014-04-30T10:11:27Z nydel: then on each server they gradually add more and more pay-to-progress updates
2014-04-30T10:11:48Z nydel: until you're no longer playing a strategy game, you're playing slots with hobit tokens
2014-04-30T10:12:16Z nydel: i really want to punish kabam and companies like them, they pray on weak people with addictive personalities who just wanted to play a nice mmo
2014-04-30T10:12:16Z loke: nydel: Yeah, I hate that
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2014-04-30T10:12:39Z nydel: *prey
2014-04-30T10:12:56Z loke: There are plenty of games you play but you never get the damned upgrades you need. And then you notice that to actually get the necessary upgrades, it costs like 1000 "coins" and in 10 hours of gameplay you only earned 3.
2014-04-30T10:13:08Z nydel: exactly loke
2014-04-30T10:13:18Z stassats: "uninstall"
2014-04-30T10:13:32Z nydel: and it's such a discount to buy the $100 compared to the $10 that you end up doing it if you play long enough
2014-04-30T10:13:33Z loke: These days, if the play store says "in app puchases" I just down download/buy the application.
2014-04-30T10:13:53Z loke: nydel: I don't. I just uninstall instead
2014-04-30T10:13:59Z loke: (and give then a bad review)
2014-04-30T10:14:15Z stassats: and let's not talk too much about it here, not exactly on topic
2014-04-30T10:14:40Z nydel: thanks stassats, i do that a lot hehe
2014-04-30T10:15:15Z pjb: dim: cf. https://gitorious.org/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/source/b3e6eda3f2e5e4eade5d41947ba3fe2ba2b3a70e:future/editor.lisp
2014-04-30T10:17:57Z pjb: dim: for a small example, cf. https://gitorious.org/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/source/b3e6eda3f2e5e4eade5d41947ba3fe2ba2b3a70e:future/editor.lisp#L2302
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2014-04-30T10:22:34Z dim: thx
2014-04-30T10:25:09Z dim: you have an emacs clone for clisp?
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2014-04-30T10:26:33Z leo2007: In sbcl, one cannot defconstant a var to a string?
2014-04-30T10:26:38Z leo2007: constant*
2014-04-30T10:26:50Z stassats: that's not true
2014-04-30T10:26:53Z dim: I'm struggling to decide if the worse is that you did an emacs like editor for clisp or that I have a real use case for it ;-)
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2014-04-30T10:28:10Z leo2007: I have (defconstant +dev-urandom+ "/dev/urandom") and it is complaining +dev-urandom+ being redefined from "/dev/urandom" to "/dev/urandom"
2014-04-30T10:28:17Z z0d: leo2007: you can. you just have to be careful when reloading your .lisp file
2014-04-30T10:28:41Z stassats: leo2007: "/dev/urandom" and "/dev/urandom" are not EQL
2014-04-30T10:28:45Z ejt: leo2007: you're trying to change the value of a constant
2014-04-30T10:29:08Z leo2007: ejt: no
2014-04-30T10:29:16Z stassats: (load (compile-file "file")) would have different "/dev/urandom" strings, twice
2014-04-30T10:29:47Z pjb: dim: I've pushed two bug corrections in editor.lisp.
2014-04-30T10:30:11Z dim: I might use it later this year, will let you know
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2014-04-30T10:30:36Z dim: the first game we're talking about with my daughter doesn't involve in-game coding yet, that's my own idea for later
2014-04-30T10:30:42Z pjb: dim: yes, it's a little emacs clone. A lot of commands are missing. For example, you can C-x C-f editor.lisp itsel, but there's no scroll-up-command yet to see the following pages :-/
2014-04-30T10:30:56Z stassats: (defconstant +constant+ (if (and (boundp +constant+) (equal "/dev/urandom" +constant+) +constant+) "/dev/urandom"))
2014-04-30T10:32:11Z stassats: boundp '+constant+
2014-04-30T10:32:16Z leo2007: I guess I'll change it to defparameter
2014-04-30T10:32:27Z pjb: dim: but you can use C-x C-e to evaluate expressions in buffers, so it's already self modifiable :-)
2014-04-30T10:32:35Z z0d: or, you can define defconstant*, which hides the details
2014-04-30T10:32:41Z stassats: (alexandria:define-constant +constant+ "string" :test #'equal)
2014-04-30T10:33:04Z stassats: but you rarely need constants in your code, it's an optimization device
2014-04-30T10:33:34Z leo2007: stassats: nice. BTW, why in the definition it has ''eql
2014-04-30T10:33:38Z leo2007: typo?
2014-04-30T10:33:40Z stassats: no
2014-04-30T10:33:46Z pjb: Yes, just use defparameter, or exceptionnally, defvar.
2014-04-30T10:33:47Z stassats: it's a macro
2014-04-30T10:33:59Z stassats: ,''eql will give 'eql
2014-04-30T10:34:24Z leo2007: I see.
2014-04-30T10:34:39Z stassats: `(list :test ,''eql) and `(list :test ,'eql)
2014-04-30T10:34:42Z leo2007: I guess I'll use defparameter for now but remember to use define-constant when I really need it.
2014-04-30T10:35:08Z stassats: `(list :test ','eql) could work, but will break with `(list :test ',#'eql)
2014-04-30T10:37:03Z stassats: or more exactly, when inside a defmacro lambda list, it is evaluated, but it's not evaluated when the macro is called
2014-04-30T10:37:23Z stassats: so, the defaults have to be quoted to achieve the same
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2014-04-30T10:43:07Z leo2007: stassats: thanks.
2014-04-30T10:43:50Z stassats: and "it's not" meaning not the default is not evaluated, but whatever the macro is being expanded with
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2014-04-30T11:00:17Z ejt: ooo, macrolet's cool
2014-04-30T11:00:44Z H4ns: ejt: it is painful to debug code that uses macrolet, so i use it sparingly.
2014-04-30T11:01:05Z H4ns: ejt: sometimes it is rather nice, though.  i used symbol-macrolet just today
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2014-04-30T11:01:26Z pjb: It is nice when you write other macros.
2014-04-30T11:01:31Z stassats: H4ns: it's just a better IDE away
2014-04-30T11:01:36Z H4ns: stassats: "just"
2014-04-30T11:01:40Z Krystof: SBCL has an "account" with the Common Lisp Foundation
2014-04-30T11:01:41Z ejt: y, I'm writing these test macros
2014-04-30T11:02:22Z stassats: H4ns: it's really not that hard, but i haven't been touching me "better IDE" in a while
2014-04-30T11:02:24Z Krystof: it currently contains $1000 from last year's GSoc fees, minus whatever CLF charges us for holding services (2-5% iirc)
2014-04-30T11:02:45Z H4ns: stassats: of course it is not hard, but it is a lot of work nevertheless.
2014-04-30T11:03:17Z splittist: Krystof: Foie gras and champagne!
2014-04-30T11:03:19Z Krystof: if that amount builds up, I would expect SBCL to use it for defraying conference attendance or for holding meatspace meetings
2014-04-30T11:03:23Z Krystof: or that, yes
2014-04-30T11:03:34Z stassats: hookers and blow?
2014-04-30T11:03:48Z Krystof: splittist's versions is easier to explain to the taxman
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2014-04-30T11:15:29Z loke: Krystof: How can I donate to it?
2014-04-30T11:15:54Z Krystof: I don't know
2014-04-30T11:15:58Z Krystof: let me ask
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2014-04-30T11:16:44Z ejt: so after 2 days of lisping I've learned 3 things: 1) paredit mode is awesome, 2) it's hard to stop using loop once you start (though it's no doubt making me soft), 3) macrolet is seriously powerful
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2014-04-30T11:17:06Z stassats: you can stop LOOP with C-c C-c
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2014-04-30T11:17:20Z ejt: no,k I meant stop using it
2014-04-30T11:17:35Z stassats: (i wasn't serious)
2014-04-30T11:17:41Z ejt: :)
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2014-04-30T11:18:03Z leo2007: which pattern matching package do you use?
2014-04-30T11:18:04Z loke: ejt: Also, once you start using LOOP you start missing it in other languages
2014-04-30T11:18:25Z loke: Are there any other languages that has anything similar to LOOP?
2014-04-30T11:18:39Z ejt: well I still miss my haskell folds
2014-04-30T11:18:53Z stassats: ejt: as in REDUCE?
2014-04-30T11:18:54Z loke: Hmm... Isn't fold similar to REDUCE?
2014-04-30T11:19:18Z ejt: yes .. but a lot of the Haskell techniques are efficient because of the lazy eval
2014-04-30T11:19:25Z ejt: so they don't transfer
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2014-04-30T11:19:50Z stassats: i thought lazy evaluation wasn't that efficient
2014-04-30T11:20:05Z ejt: it is
2014-04-30T11:20:34Z loke: stassats: The problem is that the lazy evaulation can come and bite you buy exploding memory consumption
2014-04-30T11:21:05Z ejt: yep, that's why there are strictness annotations
2014-04-30T11:21:18Z ejt: and learning to use them correctly is tricky
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2014-04-30T11:22:15Z loke: ejt: There is the SERIES package that almost became part of CL
2014-04-30T11:22:22Z loke: it supports lazy sequences
2014-04-30T11:22:26Z stassats: if you don't actually evaluate things you intend to, but if your algorithm evaluates everything it wants, i imagine lazy evaluation has an overhead
2014-04-30T11:22:50Z loke: The implementation (available in QL) is not very efficient though
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2014-04-30T11:23:17Z francogrex: I am trying to understand sbcl internals: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142342
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2014-04-30T11:23:32Z loke: stassats: I'm pretty sure he's referring to efficiency in expression rather than efficiency in execution
2014-04-30T11:23:52Z ejt: both
2014-04-30T11:23:56Z Krystof: francogrex: it's usually easier to read aligned words in memory
2014-04-30T11:24:11Z Krystof: start at 0x2490BA50
2014-04-30T11:24:11Z stassats: francogrex: 0x2490BA57 is tagged
2014-04-30T11:25:12Z Krystof: if you're trying to understand internals, I recommend the CMUCL internals manual and the "objects in memory" section of the SBCL internals manual
2014-04-30T11:25:25Z Krystof: once you've read those, the memory dump should make more sense
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2014-04-30T11:25:44Z francogrex: Krystof: stassats sorry that post was not complete. when *x* is an array ok I have the address (tagged) that I am able to trace. but the address of (defparameter *x* 35) for example is something like 340 (in decimal)
2014-04-30T11:26:01Z francogrex: ok
2014-04-30T11:26:03Z stassats: (- (sb-kernel:get-lisp-obj-address *x*) sb-vm:other-pointer-lowtag)
2014-04-30T11:26:24Z loke: francogrex: An immediate number (like 10) is, when stored in a register, shifted by a few bits to the left
2014-04-30T11:26:31Z stassats: that will get you to the header
2014-04-30T11:26:37Z loke: francogrex: the lower n number of bits is the tag
2014-04-30T11:27:04Z francogrex: ok thanks
2014-04-30T11:28:38Z loke: Run the following, and think about why it doesn't ADD 1 to RDX
2014-04-30T11:28:44Z loke: (disassemble #'(lambda (x) (declare (type (integer 0 100) x)) (1+ x)))
2014-04-30T11:30:02Z Krystof: francogrex: please read the documents I've pointed you to before doing any more
2014-04-30T11:32:32Z francogrex: ok the doc and these replies are already a very good starter for me
2014-04-30T11:33:41Z loke: OK, I'm heading home
2014-04-30T11:33:44Z loke: Bye all :-)
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2014-04-30T11:35:04Z stassats: and who needs gdb?
2014-04-30T11:35:06Z stassats: (loop repeat 10 for i by sb-vm:n-word-bytes do (print (sb-sys:sap-ref-word (sb-sys:int-sap (1+ (sb-kernel:get-lisp-obj-address array))) i)))
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2014-04-30T11:37:24Z stassats: or ldb: (alien-funcall (extern-alien ldb-monitor (function void)))
2014-04-30T11:37:32Z stassats: d address
2014-04-30T11:38:25Z stassats: you can even do p 68773017631
2014-04-30T11:38:40Z stassats: 0x100330f81f: other pointer  header: 0x000000a9: simple vector  length = 10
2014-04-30T11:38:45Z stassats: etc.
2014-04-30T11:39:50Z stassats: and LDB is wrong on x86-64, untags fixnums too much
2014-04-30T11:39:53Z francogrex: once one (I) knows how to move around in ldb it become nice to use
2014-04-30T11:40:07Z stassats: francogrex: "help"
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2014-04-30T12:14:40Z quazimodo: does sbcl have an analogue of ext:with-keyboard ?
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2014-04-30T12:14:48Z quazimodo: which is available in clisp, incidentally
2014-04-30T12:15:41Z pjb: AFAIK, nope, you'll have to use a library to access to the raw terminal.
2014-04-30T12:16:11Z quazimodo: pjb: so I'm stuck with getch :/
2014-04-30T12:16:17Z pjb: The advantage being of avoiding an implementation dependant feature. The inconvenient being that it relies on an external C library thru FFI.
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2014-04-30T12:16:20Z pjb: Yes.
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2014-04-30T12:17:20Z quazimodo: how does emacs in the terminal grab "alt" combinations? getch doesn't seem to even notice alt was pressed
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2014-04-30T12:17:43Z dim: pjb: loading quicklisp.lisp segfaults on the Pi
2014-04-30T12:18:26Z pjb: You may want to say that to Xach.
2014-04-30T12:18:51Z pjb: quazimodo: it doesn't.
2014-04-30T12:19:14Z pjb: quazimodo: you configure your terminal to send ESC x when you press M-x.
2014-04-30T12:19:38Z dim: pjb: well clisp segfault when loading slime too
2014-04-30T12:19:43Z pjb: emacs makes the difference between ESC x and M-x by the timing. (if you'd need to distinguish them, eg. in keyboard translations).
2014-04-30T12:19:48Z dim: I guess clisp on the pi will be restricted to its readline ui
2014-04-30T12:20:06Z pjb: You should debug it.
2014-04-30T12:20:20Z dim: should is way too strong a world here
2014-04-30T12:20:28Z pjb: :-)
2014-04-30T12:20:29Z pjb: could
2014-04-30T12:20:36Z dim: I could be interested into debugging it
2014-04-30T12:20:41Z dim: but I'm currently not
2014-04-30T12:21:16Z quazimodo: pjb: yeah looks like i'm using some non standard funniness... shame :/
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2014-04-30T12:27:26Z quazimodo: though I have *no idea* where I've set it up
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2014-04-30T12:37:53Z dim: are the meta-data on quickdocs automatically update at quicklisp releases?
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2014-04-30T12:38:23Z dim: like in http://quickdocs.org/able/ you can have a link to what appears to be the latest quicklisp release tarball for the system
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2014-04-30T13:22:55Z leo2007: What does `simple' mean in any types begin with simple-?
2014-04-30T13:23:07Z pjb: this is defined specifically for each of them.
2014-04-30T13:23:21Z dim: for array like it usually means not adjustable nor displaced
2014-04-30T13:23:25Z Xach: http://l1sp.org/cl/glossary/simple
2014-04-30T13:23:31Z pjb: But globally, it means that the data structures of that types have simplier and more homogenous characteristics.
2014-04-30T13:23:39Z dim: Xach: I have quicklisp questions again! ;-)
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2014-04-30T13:23:58Z Xach: dim: was ist los?
2014-04-30T13:24:14Z dim: in debian we have a watch file facility that would query an URL and retrieve information about the latest version of a package
2014-04-30T13:24:26Z dim: apparently quickdocs.org/$pkg/ pages would work
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2014-04-30T13:24:41Z dim: do you maintain quickdocs too?
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2014-04-30T13:24:45Z Xach: No
2014-04-30T13:25:05Z pjb: Is there a simple way to "mask" restarts?  I'd want to set up my own list of restarts, and prevent the system provided ones to be available.
2014-04-30T13:25:06Z dim: do you know if they update as you do?
2014-04-30T13:25:10Z Xach: It is an independent effort by Eitarow Fukamachi.
2014-04-30T13:25:19Z Xach: dim: I don't know how or when they choose to update, sorry.
2014-04-30T13:25:23Z dim: yeah, sure
2014-04-30T13:26:11Z dim: so we would need another trusted url for the watch file... what would it take to have a quicklisp.org/dist/quicklisp/latest/<package>.html file with a link in there pointing to the latest tarball?
2014-04-30T13:26:26Z leo2007: thanks
2014-04-30T13:26:30Z pjb: So far, it seems there's only the hard way, to handle-bind the error, and to compute and filter the restarts myself, letting the user select the one to invoke.
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2014-04-30T13:26:49Z dim: (yeah it means one file per package, that would make it easier, but I don't know about the AWS cost of doing it that way)
2014-04-30T13:27:04Z dim: note that we could bypass the watch file, but it makes life way easier for debian developers
2014-04-30T13:27:21Z Xach: dim: releases.txt points to the latest url
2014-04-30T13:27:38Z Xach: Why another trusted URL?
2014-04-30T13:27:47Z dim: yeah but apparently the current uscan utility (that parses the watch file) doesn't know how to deal with that ;(
2014-04-30T13:28:04Z Xach: Why is quickdocs.org unsuitable?
2014-04-30T13:28:22Z dim: I'm not sure, I wanted to see with you if adding another URL scheme would be a good thing or not
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2014-04-30T13:28:45Z dim: we can always use quickdocs and see later ;-)
2014-04-30T13:28:46Z Xach: Well, if it involves me doing more work, it's not great
2014-04-30T13:29:11Z dim: I would propose sending a patch over, you would still have work tho
2014-04-30T13:29:19Z dim: I will use quickdocs for now
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2014-04-30T13:29:43Z Xach: Can you trust your own website? It would be pretty trivial (for someone else) to make something that fetches & explodes releases.txt
2014-04-30T13:29:50Z Xach: For each data line, make a file.
2014-04-30T13:29:53Z dim: now that I have my 42 cl libs packaged for pgloader, let's see about automatically using current quicklisp releases ;-)
2014-04-30T13:29:55Z Xach: The format is very shell-friendly.
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2014-04-30T13:30:04Z dim: yes it is
2014-04-30T13:30:21Z Xach: on purpose!
2014-04-30T13:30:33Z dim: we would only need a cron task to have it uptodate
2014-04-30T13:30:43Z dim: the other thing is figuring out the current URL
2014-04-30T13:30:47Z stassats: updating things with cron is a bad idea
2014-04-30T13:30:53Z dim: currently it has the release date in it
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2014-04-30T13:32:07Z Xach: dim: distinfo.txt at a fixed location points to the latest url
2014-04-30T13:32:20Z Xach: distinfo.txt is slightly less shell-friendly but not bad.
2014-04-30T13:33:16Z dim: I didn't find the fixed location, what's URL is it?
2014-04-30T13:33:49Z Xach: see distinfo-subscription-url in distinfo.txt
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2014-04-30T13:34:44Z dim: http://beta.quicklisp.org/dist/quicklisp.txt
2014-04-30T13:34:45Z jordonbiondo: Hello, I'm looking at logic functions and see that (and t) => t, and (or t) => t, which I can understand even if runing a binary operation with one argument doesn't really make sense, but what would (xor t) be? xor sort of implies that that there must be another argument to test against? Is there a mathematically correct answer?
2014-04-30T13:34:59Z stassats: AND and OR are macros
2014-04-30T13:35:11Z dim: ok so I parse the file at http://beta.quicklisp.org/dist/quicklisp.txt to know I need to parse http://beta.quicklisp.org/dist/quicklisp/2014-04-25/releases.txt currently, right?
2014-04-30T13:35:15Z dim: sounds simple enough
2014-04-30T13:35:26Z stassats: they are intended for control-flow, not for logical operations
2014-04-30T13:35:28Z stassats: clhs logxor
2014-04-30T13:35:29Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_logand.htm
2014-04-30T13:35:33Z stassats: clhs logand
2014-04-30T13:35:33Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_logand.htm
2014-04-30T13:35:47Z Xach: dim: that's right
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2014-04-30T13:36:24Z dim: I'm going to "script" it in CL, can I directly use your code somewhere to do that for me? do you have that kind of code?
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2014-04-30T13:37:22Z jordonbiondo: stassats: I understand that, I found myself writing (when (or (and a (not b))
2014-04-30T13:37:31Z jordonbiondo: (and b (not a)) ...)
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2014-04-30T13:38:22Z Xach: dim: ql-dist::make-dist-from-file might help
2014-04-30T13:38:50Z dim: thanks
2014-04-30T13:38:53Z stassats: jordonbiondo: (or a b (not (and a b)))?
2014-04-30T13:38:56Z jordonbiondo: stassats: but I'm not sure how to handle (xor one-arg), didn't know if there was a correct result
2014-04-30T13:39:23Z stassats: err, forgot an and somewhere there
2014-04-30T13:39:39Z stassats: (and (or a b) (not (and a b)))
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2014-04-30T13:40:09Z Krystof: there are multiple possible narg generalizations of xor
2014-04-30T13:40:15Z Krystof: none of them are particularly useful
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2014-04-30T13:49:01Z pjb: The generalization of xor you will choose will depend on the meaning you're assigning to xor, ie. what you use it for.
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2014-04-30T13:56:22Z jordonbiondo: pjb: I could see two ways of going about it, xor returns t only when a single argument is non-nil, or it works like (reduce 'xor args), but it seems either way, (xor t) => t (xor nil) => nil. So I guess that is the correct way
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2014-04-30T14:01:22Z pjb: it could indicate there's a single true, or there's a single false, or there's both true and false.  (reduce 'xor args) is the strangest of them, but probably useful in crypto.
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2014-04-30T14:02:26Z pjb: single true => (xor t) = t, (xor nil) = nil ; single false => (xor t) = nil, (xor nil) = t, both => (xor t) = nil, (xor nil) = nil; reduce doesn't help in resolving the question of unary xor.
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2014-04-30T14:12:02Z jordonbiondo: It seems the answer is: dont' do a unary xor
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2014-04-30T14:59:13Z dim: how portable is (directory "foo/**")?
2014-04-30T14:59:21Z dim: should I even try using that?
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2014-04-30T14:59:58Z dim: ok I guess I'm back to iolib actually, I shoulnd't even have asked
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2014-04-30T15:01:05Z dim: fe[nl]ix: Shared library not open: "/usr/lib/system/libsystem_c.dylib" when using CCL
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2014-04-30T15:02:01Z dim is back to SBCL for the day
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2014-04-30T15:09:07Z splittist: dim: uiop, which comes with asdf 3, purports to have portable directory manipulation stuff
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2014-04-30T15:10:02Z dim: the day I understand the docstrings is the day I'm looking at it
2014-04-30T15:10:16Z dim: meanwhile I'll go with iolib which is quite nice
2014-04-30T15:11:01Z splittist: As long as windows isn't important to you.
2014-04-30T15:12:25Z drewc admits to using uiop/pathname 
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2014-04-30T15:13:24Z drewc: and of course, UIOP/FILESYSTEM:DIRECTORY*
2014-04-30T15:13:55Z dim: you have good reference docs about those?
2014-04-30T15:14:22Z dim: I started with the docstring for uiop:merge-pathnames* and ... well, got myself iolib instead
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2014-04-30T15:15:11Z foom: really? That seems to pretty reasonably describe it.
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2014-04-30T15:16:04Z foom: I guess it should start with 'Like merge-pathnames except it works the way you wanted merge-pathnames to work.'
2014-04-30T15:16:13Z foom: Before getting into those details of how it differs
2014-04-30T15:16:14Z drewc: good reference docs? you mean the code and docstrings are not enough? and "Gentle Introduction" is too basic? :)
2014-04-30T15:17:46Z dim: it assumes I know exactly how merge-pathname works
2014-04-30T15:17:55Z dim: if I did, would I still really need another one?
2014-04-30T15:18:07Z drewc: wait .. docs for pathnames ... doesn't PCL have an entire chapter on that?! :D
2014-04-30T15:18:18Z dim: using cl-fad, which I came to dislike
2014-04-30T15:18:23Z foom: I think it assumes you can look at CLHS
2014-04-30T15:18:30Z drewc: clhs
2014-04-30T15:18:34Z dim: yeah
2014-04-30T15:18:38Z drewc: that is the docs
2014-04-30T15:18:39Z dim: well, iolib is quite nice
2014-04-30T15:18:57Z drewc: save for that it is not CL per se, I agree
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2014-04-30T15:19:32Z drmeister: I just discovered an issue I need to deal with wrt SUBTYPEP.    My SUBTYPEP is borrowed from the ECL code-base and is shown here: https://gist.github.com/dr-meister/ee12d5c584af1fe82622
2014-04-30T15:19:43Z foom: "Just like merge-pathname, but without the idiocy." seems like all the summary most people would actually need in order to use it properly.
2014-04-30T15:19:45Z drewc: but, I use UIOP for such things simply because ASDF does, and asdf is as portable as it gets.
2014-04-30T15:19:54Z drmeister: Oh sorry - I thought you were done.
2014-04-30T15:20:16Z foom: drmeister: I don't think IRC is single-threaded.
2014-04-30T15:20:41Z drewc: "Just like merge-pathname if the standard was updated to point to things beyond the 90's"
2014-04-30T15:20:45Z stassats: drmeister: and the issue being?
2014-04-30T15:21:04Z nyef: drmeister: You've read http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/Subtypep.html right?
2014-04-30T15:21:41Z drmeister: Ok - the SUBTYPEP uses a system function called HASH-EQL which will call HASH-EQ which will work with a non-moving GC (ECL uses Boehm) but will fail with a moving GC.
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2014-04-30T15:21:59Z nyef: Ahh.
2014-04-30T15:22:19Z drmeister: I was thinking of switching to replacing HASH-EQL with HASH-EQUAL for a simple fix.   Types are all symbols and CONSes of symbols and numbers - right?
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2014-04-30T15:22:56Z nyef: Except for EQL and MEMBER types, off the top of my head.
2014-04-30T15:23:11Z stassats: classes are types
2014-04-30T15:23:14Z stassats: type specifiers
2014-04-30T15:23:30Z nyef: Okay, and actual CLASS objects.
2014-04-30T15:24:00Z drmeister: That's fine.   I'm going to pin SYMBOLs and CLASSes in memory (I'll put them in an automatic mark and sweep pool where they won't move).   So I can use HASH-EQ on those.
2014-04-30T15:24:12Z drewc claims to be a lisper yet has completely ignored the type system save for CHECK-TYPE .... what a messed up thought!
2014-04-30T15:24:31Z nyef: drewc: Be careful, here there be dragons.
2014-04-30T15:25:01Z drmeister: The problem I see is HASH-EQL will drop back to HASH-EQ for CONSes and they will be moving around - not good.
2014-04-30T15:25:08Z drewc: I have a 6 month old kitten on board here .... I hope she is not death!
2014-04-30T15:25:36Z nyef: I think that SBCL actually includes support for a short list (possibly a singleton list) of known SATISFIES type predicates for making decisions in its type system.
2014-04-30T15:25:44Z foom: drmeister: you need to rehash on GC if you have a eq hashtable and a moving gc.
2014-04-30T15:25:52Z drmeister: Does anyone see any problems with replacing HASH-EQL with HASH-EQUAL?
2014-04-30T15:26:10Z drewc: string keys?
2014-04-30T15:26:12Z drmeister: foom: Yes - that is another problem that I'm working on.   The Memory Pool System has facilities to handle location dependencies.
2014-04-30T15:26:24Z nyef: drmeister: What things are EQUAL but not EQL, and could show up in an EQL or MEMBER type specifier?
2014-04-30T15:26:56Z drewc: conses?
2014-04-30T15:26:58Z drmeister: nyef: A CONS like (integer 0 255)
2014-04-30T15:27:43Z foom: It's probably not good enough to use HASH-EQUAL instead of HASH-EQ/EQL, because HASH-EQUAL presumably also falls back to using the object address when it's known to be okay to do so.
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2014-04-30T15:28:40Z drmeister: Imagine:   (let* ((c '(integer 0 255)) (hash0 (HASH-EQL c)) ... (hash1 (HASH-EQL c)))   If during the "..." a gc happens and C moves then hash0 will not be the same as hash1.
2014-04-30T15:29:36Z drmeister: foom: Right - but on what types will it fall back to HASH-EQ - I think just SYMBOLs and CLASSes - and I'll pin those in memory - they won't move.   Everything else will.
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2014-04-30T15:30:03Z foom: this is only a cache anyways, no?
2014-04-30T15:30:29Z foom: so if you fail to find a hit, it just makes it slower and uses up memory
2014-04-30T15:31:03Z drmeister: foom: I hadn't thought about that.
2014-04-30T15:31:52Z stassats: what about false positives?
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2014-04-30T15:32:04Z foom: it's a hash, you get those anyways.
2014-04-30T15:32:06Z drmeister: Yeah - what stassats said
2014-04-30T15:32:14Z drmeister: Hmmmm.
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2014-04-30T15:32:34Z ivan-kanis: How do I bind a REPL to a socket asynchronous with SBCL?
2014-04-30T15:32:37Z drmeister: There is one other place where HASH-EQL is used, in "upgraded-array-element-type"
2014-04-30T15:33:05Z ivan-kanis: I would like to execute a function in stumpwm and I think it will be quicker to script if than writing a hook.
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2014-04-30T15:33:15Z drmeister: That seems to involve a cache as well.
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2014-04-30T15:34:19Z drmeister: So it's just an efficiency thing is it?     But I could replace HASH-EQL with HASH-EQUAL if I wanted too - correct?   No one sees any serious problems with that.
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2014-04-30T15:37:14Z nyef: drmeister: Except that it might devolve to HASH-EQL for objects with identity.
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2014-04-30T15:38:12Z drmeister: nyef: Hmmm.   It looks like I'm darned if I do and darned if I don't.
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2014-04-30T15:38:29Z nyef: Sounds to me like your big win would be to fix EQ-hashing.
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2014-04-30T15:39:53Z nyef: Actually, what're the consequences of a hash miss, the consequences of a hash collision, and the consequences of dumping the cache on every GC?
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2014-04-30T15:46:59Z drmeister: nyef: I am fixing EQ-hashing for hash tables.   The problem I see here is that HASH-EQL/HASH-EQ functions are exposed and used within the Common Lisp code explicitly.  These are non-standard functions implemented by the ECL system library (and because I follow what they do my system library).  A HASH-EQ value will become stale after a GC.
2014-04-30T15:47:26Z drmeister: I should say - A HASH-EQ value for anything other than SYMBOL and CLASS will become stale after a GC.
2014-04-30T15:47:43Z drmeister: ECL doesn't have this problem because they use a Boehm collector which doesn't move anything.
2014-04-30T15:48:06Z ivan-kanis: hmm, I copied something on the net and "There is no applicable method for the generic function  #<STANDARD-GENERIC-FUNCTION  SB-BSD-SOCKETS:SOCKET-MAKE-STREAM (1)>"
2014-04-30T15:48:30Z ivan-kanis: I guess it's changed since 2008
2014-04-30T15:49:08Z ivan-kanis: nm, I found the method
2014-04-30T15:49:24Z drmeister: nyef: I'm not misunderstanding something am I?    You're question makes me wonder if I am.
2014-04-30T15:49:46Z ivan-kanis: I am looking forward to the Symposium :D
2014-04-30T15:50:54Z nyef: What I'm asking is "what does it matter if the hash values change on GC, does it matter if the cache gets dumped on GC, and does it matter if hash values collide?" Basically, what are the consequences of reducing the effectiveness of this cache.
2014-04-30T15:51:05Z nyef: In several directions at once.
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2014-04-30T15:57:55Z drmeister: nyef: Ah - I see what you mean.   Your point is well taken  - I need to understand how these caches are being used in these two uses of HASH-EQL.   I was hoping to be able to replace this without understanding the underlying algorithm.   I know that sounds lazy but I try and weasel my way out of understanding things sometimes when I can because there is so much stuff I have had to do to get this far.
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2014-04-30T16:03:20Z drmeister: Ok, what happens with a moving garbage collector if I say (eq t1 t2) and in the middle of the EQ evaluation t1 is moved away and t2 moves to where t1 was.   Can that ever happen?  The moving GC will move from one block of memory to another - so it shouldn't right?
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2014-04-30T16:11:09Z drmeister: Does SBCL expose a HASH-EQ function?  Or any function that returns the address of an object?
2014-04-30T16:12:29Z stassats: sb-kernel:get-lisp-obj-address
2014-04-30T16:14:11Z drmeister: Hopefully no one uses that for anything other than to amuse themselves with the current, temporary address of the object.
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2014-04-30T16:14:53Z stassats: there's always object pinning
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2014-04-30T16:16:29Z drmeister: Looking at the SUBTYPEP code I posted above, I don't see any serious problems with false-positives or false-negatives - so I don't need to change the code.
2014-04-30T16:17:42Z drmeister: As long as (and elt (eq (caar elt) t1) (eq (cdar elt) t2))   where elt = (aref cache hash)
2014-04-30T16:17:57Z drmeister: everything should be fine.
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2014-04-30T16:19:06Z drmeister: I mean as long as that AND test doesn't return T when it should return NIL - and that can't happen.
2014-04-30T16:19:44Z drmeister: I think it's going to be ok to leave the HASH-EQL in there.
2014-04-30T16:20:11Z drmeister: As long as (EQ x y) works everything will be fine and if (EQ x y) doesn't work then nothing works.
2014-04-30T16:21:03Z drmeister rediscovers axiomatic reasoning
2014-04-30T16:23:23Z drmeister: There must be some guarantee though that in the (EQ x y) function that between getting (address x) and (address y) the garbage collector doesn't move y to where x was.
2014-04-30T16:23:37Z pjb: dim: (directory "foo/**") is uterly implementation dependant.
2014-04-30T16:24:17Z pjb: dim: (directory "FOO;**") might not be conforming.  I would do:  (directory "FOO;**;")
2014-04-30T16:24:19Z dim: iolib/os:walk-directory isn't, so I'm using that
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2014-04-30T17:50:17Z didi: How do I know if an object `foo-object' is an instance of class `foo-class'? (typep foo-object 'foo-class)?
2014-04-30T17:51:46Z stassats: yes
2014-04-30T17:51:50Z didi: Cool.
2014-04-30T17:51:59Z stassats: ot
2014-04-30T17:52:11Z stassats: it's not checking for "an instance of", though
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2014-04-30T17:52:24Z didi: Oh.
2014-04-30T17:52:28Z stassats: it will return T for an instance of a subclass too
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2014-04-30T17:52:49Z didi: Interesting.
2014-04-30T17:52:51Z didi: Thank you.
2014-04-30T17:53:00Z stassats: but if you need to distinguish between the two, then your class hierarchy is wrong
2014-04-30T17:53:48Z didi: My goal is to reproduce what `defstruct' does with (defstruct foo) to `foo-p'.
2014-04-30T17:54:03Z stassats: it does some magic, usually
2014-04-30T17:54:14Z didi: Hum.
2014-04-30T17:54:19Z stassats: but the same is true for foo-p, it will return true for substructures
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2014-04-30T17:55:14Z didi: Thanks. I'll try this approach for now.
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2014-04-30T18:08:47Z samebchase: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142345#1 Is there an easy way to do this with LOOP?
2014-04-30T18:09:01Z samebchase: or is ITERATE more appropriate here?
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2014-04-30T18:12:52Z stassats: iterate is never appropriate, but you can't do that easily with LOOP
2014-04-30T18:13:34Z samebchase: what's wrong with it?
2014-04-30T18:13:41Z stassats: everything
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2014-04-30T18:14:25Z samebchase: hm
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2014-04-30T18:19:32Z brown`: stassats: I'm curious too.  What are the defects of ITERATE?  It seems to be a cleaned up LOOP.  Maybe you don't like the approach that both take?
2014-04-30T18:20:11Z stassats: bad syntax, code-walking, package clashing
2014-04-30T18:21:19Z stassats: people say that LOOP is not lispy, but that's exactly the point, i can easily distinguish between loop directives and code
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2014-04-30T18:22:56Z stassats: samebchase: (if (gethash elt frequency-table) (incf (gethash elt frequency-table)) (setf (gethash elt frequency-table) 1)) => (incf (gethash elt frequency-table 0))
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2014-04-30T18:27:46Z samebchase: stassats: woah. nice
2014-04-30T18:28:07Z stassats: that's how i would write it: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142345#2
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2014-04-30T18:33:35Z samebchase: TIL &default in gethash
2014-04-30T18:35:36Z samebchase: oh and also setf'ng multiple symbols
2014-04-30T18:35:54Z stassats: places
2014-04-30T18:36:14Z samebchase: sorry
2014-04-30T18:36:16Z samebchase: that
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2014-04-30T18:36:19Z stassats: i bet you also didn't know about (setf (values max-freq frequency) (values max-freq-elt elt))
2014-04-30T18:36:41Z stassats: well, mixed up the variables, but you get the idea
2014-04-30T18:36:42Z samebchase: stassats: You lose! I did know that. ;-)
2014-04-30T18:37:01Z stassats: but did you know about MULTIPLE-VALUE-SETQ?
2014-04-30T18:37:09Z samebchase: no
2014-04-30T18:37:14Z stassats: i win!
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2014-04-30T18:38:12Z oleo: lol
2014-04-30T18:39:05Z samebchase: I mean, I knew of the existence of that, but I never looked up how to use it. Looking at the clhs, is is just another way of (setf (values ..) ..)
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2014-04-30T18:40:15Z drewc: samebchase: SETQ, not SETF ;)
2014-04-30T18:40:55Z drewc: which means nothing at all, and I am just poking fun things beyond anything else ... lunch time!
2014-04-30T18:41:10Z samebchase: I don't think I've ever used setq. People don't use that anymore right?
2014-04-30T18:41:43Z stassats: right
2014-04-30T18:42:04Z samebchase: or was that set?
2014-04-30T18:42:10Z stassats: both
2014-04-30T18:42:13Z drewc: it _used_ to be the way I told the difference between emacs-lisp code and CL code ....
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2014-04-30T18:42:47Z stassats: set => (setf symbol-value)
2014-04-30T18:42:49Z samebchase: okay. I'll just stay away from both then.
2014-04-30T18:42:52Z drewc: I always used setq for emacs... but now there is not much of a difference so meh ... food.
2014-04-30T18:43:22Z stassats: come code golfing, i use everything, including #1= #1#
2014-04-30T18:43:58Z stassats: (set'* is shorter than (setq *
2014-04-30T18:44:37Z Bike: genius
2014-04-30T18:45:04Z stassats: (* is already a special variable, so you don't need to declare it)
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2014-04-30T18:45:30Z stassats: and other repl variables, except /, it wants a list
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2014-04-30T18:46:33Z samebchase: aaah. all those setq's in the clhs are annoying
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2014-04-30T18:47:53Z stassats: PROG is not powerful enough, i can't jump before the bindings are established
2014-04-30T18:48:39Z stassats: had to use bare block, tagbody and let
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2014-04-30T19:40:09Z brown`: stassats: Thanks for the anti-iterate summary.
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2014-04-30T20:06:06Z rpg_: Is #lisp still logged somewhere?
2014-04-30T20:06:17Z Shinmera: multiple places, yes
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2014-04-30T20:06:31Z rpg_: I think that used to be in the banner...
2014-04-30T20:06:36Z stassats: minion: logs
2014-04-30T20:06:36Z minion: logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000)
2014-04-30T20:06:37Z Shinmera: http://cliki.net/irc ain't hard to find
2014-04-30T20:06:40Z Shinmera: or that
2014-04-30T20:06:47Z Bike: the clozure logs are down. tunes still works.
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2014-04-30T20:07:30Z stassats: the last line in the clozure logs is "2014-04-30T20:06:47Z Bike: the clozure logs are down. tunes still works."
2014-04-30T20:07:52Z rpg_: Thanks stassats....
2014-04-30T20:08:01Z stassats: minion: seen Bike
2014-04-30T20:08:02Z minion: bike was last seen 5y6m14d32h43m10s ago, saying "minion: when are you going to support seen?"
2014-04-30T20:08:14Z p_l: ... lol
2014-04-30T20:08:15Z stassats: (reminded me of that)
2014-04-30T20:08:16Z rpg_: clozure logs are actually there still.
2014-04-30T20:08:30Z rpg_: "2014-04-30T20:06:47Z Bike: the clozure logs are down. tunes still works."
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2014-04-30T20:09:06Z Bike: oh, i see, the month log is up but the day logs are weird
2014-04-30T20:09:31Z Bike: my mistake.
2014-04-30T20:09:47Z leo2007: LiamH: hi
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2014-04-30T20:13:55Z leo2007: minion: memo for LiamH: gsll doesn't load with homebrew installed gsl on osx. I have sent a patch to lhealy <AT> common-lisp.net
2014-04-30T20:13:55Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell LiamH when he/she/it next speaks.
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2014-04-30T20:17:21Z dim: Xach: the file-md5 property in the release.txt file should be the md5 of the tgz archive file?
2014-04-30T20:17:52Z stassats: you can run md5sum and compare it
2014-04-30T20:18:08Z dim: exactly, I used cl-md5 and don't have the same number
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2014-04-30T20:18:15Z dim: but maybe I'm missing something
2014-04-30T20:18:32Z stassats: how did you format the result from cl-md5?
2014-04-30T20:18:47Z dim: the same way they do in their tests
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2014-04-30T20:18:52Z dim: (format nil "~(~{~2,'0X~}~)" (coerce (md5:md5sum-file #P"/tmp/ql-to-deb/trivial-backtrace-20120909-git.tgz") 'list))
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2014-04-30T20:19:24Z stassats: and what does md5sum say?
2014-04-30T20:19:45Z dim: I just installed it
2014-04-30T20:19:53Z dim: it says the same thing as the format
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2014-04-30T20:24:34Z dim: ok it's my problem, of course, curl + md5sum are goving me the answer from the release.txt file
2014-04-30T20:24:43Z dim: so I missused drakma here
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2014-04-30T20:25:52Z dim: the docs mention to use (flexi-streams:flexi-stream-stream stream) on the first result when asking :want-stream t, which is what I'm doing here
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2014-04-30T20:30:46Z stassats: [6502] is asking "Is now #lisp invite only or something ?"
2014-04-30T20:30:52Z stassats: p_l: is it?
2014-04-30T20:31:14Z Bike: there's no +i, but maybe 6502 got caught by the anti-spam stuff
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2014-04-30T20:32:28Z dim: ok fixed by using the body directly, not streaming the content
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2014-04-30T20:35:21Z p_l: stassats: it isn't
2014-04-30T20:35:25Z p_l: let me debug it
2014-04-30T20:35:26Z stassats: [6502] finds it "cool"
2014-04-30T20:35:39Z ChanServ has set mode +o p_l
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2014-04-30T20:36:25Z [6502]: 1 2 3 test
2014-04-30T20:36:28Z p_l: works
2014-04-30T20:36:58Z p_l: [6502]: you ran afoul of a botspam prevention measure
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2014-04-30T20:37:01Z [6502]: it was because of the nickname?
2014-04-30T20:37:07Z ChanServ has set mode -o p_l
2014-04-30T20:37:10Z p_l: yes
2014-04-30T20:37:33Z p_l: somehow you didn't end up on the exception list
2014-04-30T20:37:51Z [6502]: may be i'm not exceptional
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2014-04-30T20:38:21Z p_l: it's the +q *2?!*@* that grabbed you
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2014-04-30T20:44:51Z p_l: ok, that should cover all nicks that have problematic numbers in them
2014-04-30T20:45:44Z p_l: ... but no, of course, someone had to change their hostmask -_-
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2014-04-30T20:58:25Z Posterdati: Hi!
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2014-04-30T21:12:24Z LiamH: leo2007: I saw your email
2014-04-30T21:12:24Z minion: LiamH, memo from leo2007: gsll doesn't load with homebrew installed gsl on osx. I have sent a patch to lhealy <AT> common-lisp.net
2014-04-30T21:13:12Z LiamH: Basically, I'm trying to take hardwired paths out of load-foreign-library calls.
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2014-04-30T22:01:26Z ilammy: Hi guise. I'm studying AMOP and trying to understand one thing about methods of generic functions.
2014-04-30T22:01:52Z ilammy: defmethod macro effectively expands into (add-method <generic-metaobject> (make-instance <method-class-metaobject> <initargs...>)) where <method-class-metaobject> is the result of (generic-function-method-class <generic-metaobject>).
2014-04-30T22:02:13Z ilammy: But can I add a method of different class instead of the one specified in the generic function itself? Are there some restrictions for predefined generics?
2014-04-30T22:02:42Z ilammy: E.g., make-instance is a standard-generic-function, it accepts standard-method instances. But can I add a fancy-method instance via add-method (provided fancy-method is a derived class of standard-method)?
2014-04-30T22:03:15Z ilammy: defmethod macro itself does not seem to have any interface for this, I've tried using add-method directly, but SBCL complains that 'keyword argument is not a symbol' at the (make-instance (find-class 'fancy-method) ...) call.
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2014-04-30T22:05:04Z g3orge: guys, I'm new to lisp, can someone say to me why the string is not printed before the hanging-for-user-input-moment ? http://sprunge.us/YadD
2014-04-30T22:05:52Z stassats: clhs finish-output
2014-04-30T22:05:52Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_finish.htm
2014-04-30T22:06:07Z stassats: and you READ-LINE, not READ
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2014-04-30T22:09:12Z g3orge: so what? do I add (finish-output) after the format function? why is that? is it cached?
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2014-04-30T22:09:25Z stassats: buffered
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2014-04-30T22:30:54Z g3orge: thanks man
2014-04-30T22:31:19Z stassats: you're welcome, man
2014-04-30T22:32:05Z msmith1: hi all.  I can't for the life of me, figure out how to capture the json string create when using yason:encode.  I've tried multiple-value-bind.  If I bind the output to a variable, I get the second object printed to standard-output which is the un-encoded lisp object.  any insight is appreciated.
2014-04-30T22:33:14Z stassats: msmith1: (with-output-to-string (str) (yason:encode '("a") str))
2014-04-30T22:34:05Z stassats: (with-output-to-string (*standard-output*) (yason:encode '("a"))) also works, but you shouldn't want that, since now all output without w-o-t-s will be redirected there
2014-04-30T22:34:19Z stassats: s/without/within/
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2014-04-30T22:35:04Z msmith1: stassats: so simple it hurts. thanks
2014-04-30T22:35:39Z msmith1: stassats:  I've been trying to use yason:with-output-to-string* and couldn't figure out how to get it to work
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2014-04-30T22:38:49Z stassats: it is a bit broken
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2014-04-30T22:41:25Z stassats: H4ns: (&rest args &key indent) in yason:with-output-to-string* doesn't really do what you're trying to do
2014-04-30T22:42:02Z stassats: wait, i've lost what's being done
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2014-04-30T22:42:57Z stassats: H4ns: i see now, okay, binding yason::s to the stream doesn't do much, since you can't catch it
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2014-04-30T22:44:46Z stassats: (yason:with-output-to-string* () (yason:encode '("a") yason::*json-output*)) could work, but it's not exported
2014-04-30T22:45:32Z Bike: is *json-output* not the default to the encoders?
2014-04-30T22:45:48Z stassats: (yason:with-output-to-string* () (yason:encode '("a"))) => "" says no
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2014-04-30T22:59:19Z optikalmouse: why is it that javascripters need all these tutorials about "promises"? I feel like I'm missing something since lisp has had lazy-eval constructs for....ever
2014-04-30T22:59:32Z optikalmouse: is there some magic in futures/promises that I'm missing?
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2014-04-30T23:02:34Z stassats: optikalmouse: i'm waiting for them to deliver
2014-04-30T23:02:53Z optikalmouse: good one
2014-04-30T23:03:03Z leonvv: How is a while loop written in Lisp?
2014-04-30T23:03:21Z stassats: (loop while x do anything)
2014-04-30T23:04:32Z leonvv: stassats, I tried that, but I get: 'while is an unknown keyword in FOR or AS clause in LOOP'
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2014-04-30T23:04:58Z stassats: you tried something else
2014-04-30T23:05:03Z stassats: (loop for while x do anything) is wrong
2014-04-30T23:06:03Z leonvv: stassats, I tried this in the REPL: '(loop while (< i 10) do (incf i))'
2014-04-30T23:06:22Z leonvv: and I set i to 0
2014-04-30T23:06:35Z optikalmouse: you should be using the FOR clause for accumulation
2014-04-30T23:06:54Z Bike: stassats's code is fine. you must not be telling us exactly what we're doing.
2014-04-30T23:06:58Z optikalmouse: leonvv: what are you trying to do exactly? count? iterate over an array or something?
2014-04-30T23:07:04Z Bike: what you're doing, rather
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2014-04-30T23:08:39Z leonvv: I restarted my REPL and not it's working, I probably did something stupid, sorry all!
2014-04-30T23:08:43Z leonvv: now*
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2014-04-30T23:09:42Z stassats: now i'm curious
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2014-04-30T23:15:43Z optikalmouse: I would be curious but I'm 3 years away from the old age of 30, curiousity is for those youngsters who want to solve other people's problems. I just want a paycheck and some lisp hacking.
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2014-04-30T23:27:28Z leonvv: optikalmouse, do you write Lisp for a living?
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2014-04-30T23:37:24Z nydel: has anyone upgraded to the newest kde & qtk then tried to use :QT in cl?
2014-04-30T23:38:56Z stassats: commonqt still works with qt 4.8.6
2014-04-30T23:39:41Z nydel: stassats: which cl do you know it to work well with?
2014-04-30T23:39:46Z schoppenhauer: optikalmouse: isnt it easier to get a paycheck without lisp hacking?
2014-04-30T23:39:59Z stassats: nydel: http://common-lisp.net/project/commonqt/#id105880
2014-04-30T23:41:04Z nydel: i get allll those errors stassats but surprisingly qt seems to work okay in sbcl outside slime if i just accept them
2014-04-30T23:41:13Z nydel: commonqt that is
2014-04-30T23:41:29Z nydel: inside slime it's a mess, is that always the case?
2014-04-30T23:41:32Z stassats: no
2014-04-30T23:41:44Z stassats: i don't know what "allll those errors" means
2014-04-30T23:42:18Z nydel: loading failures during compilation of libcommonqt.so
2014-04-30T23:42:47Z stassats: are you going to be roundabout about it?
2014-04-30T23:42:51Z nydel: and trying to run qmake && make inside the commonqt src dir gives me a different error altogether
2014-04-30T23:43:01Z nydel: maybe you wouldn't mind looking at that output if i can pastebin it
2014-04-30T23:43:16Z stassats: you should have started with that
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2014-04-30T23:50:07Z nydel: stassats: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/7369696/
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2014-04-30T23:50:44Z stassats: it doesn't work with qt 5
2014-04-30T23:51:15Z nydel: should i uninstall qt5 or can i add some parameters to make
2014-04-30T23:51:23Z nydel: qt4 is present i believe
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2014-04-30T23:51:56Z nydel: i doubt i need qt5 for anything at the moment
2014-04-30T23:52:00Z stassats: you can run qmake-qt4 by hand
2014-04-30T23:52:47Z nydel: qmake-qt4 && make ==>> success
2014-04-30T23:52:59Z nydel: thank you once again stassats
2014-04-30T23:53:45Z nydel: now to see about slime and commonqt...
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2014-04-30T23:58:34Z nydel: stassats: yep. you said qt worked well with cl. what's happening now is what i had in mind