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13:43:29 -!- names: nilsi_ flip214 chu theos sellout- syrinx_ 36DAARYR5 natechan djinni`_ luis` foreignFunction spion Jubb Vutral_ statl iLogical_ quasisane mgile antoszka_ quazimodo bitonic mishoo dcooper8 abeaumont ogamita zacharias Kenjin bhyde __main__ daimrod surrounder rabite j_king_ johs eak arrdem ryoshu Batalyx jayne copec segv- hitecnologys kliph DrForr_ ck BlankVerse cdidd Adlai mathrick josemanuel pavelpenev ivan\ pok Kabaka cfdm tensorpudding sshirokov loke
13:43:29 -!- names: pierpa`` araujo BeLucid rudi Nshag galdor_ kbtr_ morphling yacks Cymew jtza8 Framedragger setmeaway zickzackv xificurC newcup mvilleneuve_ robgssp` kennyd namtsui jewel Mon_Ouie prxq xan_ mcsontos teggi benny joneshf-laptop MrWoohoo Fade carbocal` clop naryl entitativity DrPete em_ cross ineiros pkhuong danlentz nalaginrut kpreid Dalek_Baldwin ered seantallen Zhivago Bike antgreen |3b| Nisstyre Krystof axion joe9_ ianmcorvidae stokachu easye sad0ur
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13:43:29 -!- names: Borbus gf3 Sgeo n0vember KingNato doomlord__ bobbysmith007 xrq` minion specbot scharan Natch_r cyphase dfox abend brucem m4dnificent Yamazaki-kun aerique_ samebchase kushal fe[nl]ix anaumov fasta rvchangue zypeh sykopomp SquidTamer mikaelj ivan tali713 wyan housel jaimef mutley89_ Khisanth eli aeth ``Erik z0d eichelbart robot-beethoven aw|sovereign ferada dlind yan__ vsync asedeno cmm- Guest81153 BlastHardcheese cmatei Amadiro Tristam Subfusc bege
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14:33:11 -!- names: Posterdati MoALTz zbigniew vhost- pchrist justinmcp d4gg4d rvirding photex Watcher7|off igorw j0ni sfa callen Guest90632 kirin` gabot peccu1 ecraven sirdancealo2 Neptu epsylon` theBlackDragon mtd vhost-_ ZombieChicken nicdev reb` dented42 phadthai balle tkd ski rotty Patzy Tribal guaqua macrobat yroeht prip felipe tomaw yeltzooo oGMo acieroid _schulte_ tvaalen ether0_ foom ft cods cmbntr rpgsimmaster rk[no-nets] H4ns _8david` jhj blackwolf CrazyEddy weie
14:33:11 -!- names: nightfly Foxboron gko varjag EvW cpt_nemo Vivitron gemelen zorkmoid naeg scode tyrick sbryant jsnell_ tessier_ dlowe Adeon Codynyx_ fmu schoppenhauer brighid hpd ttm sigjuice angavrilov setheus johanbev stopbit spacebat wizard` jdz_ walter|r oconnore cYmen AntiSpamMeta Borbus gf3 Sgeo n0vember KingNato doomlord__ bobbysmith007 xrq` minion specbot scharan cyphase dfox abend brucem m4dnificent Yamazaki-kun aerique_ samebchase kushal fe[nl]ix anaumov fasta
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15:02:50 <samebchase> I'm trying to make an ATOM feed. Which xml library should I use. I've tried cxml, but I'm getting a lot of style-warnings when the system is loaded
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15:03:40 <samebchase> Preferably something that allows me to use a sexp syntax
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15:05:27 <H4ns> samebchase: cxml is the weapon of choice.
15:05:59 <samebchase> okay. I'll continue with that then.
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15:08:07 <stassats> why are you afraid of the style warnings?
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15:13:37 <pavelpenev> samebchase: there is also sexml
15:14:26 <samebchase> pavelpenev: I attempted to try that earlier, but I found more example code in the cxml docs
15:15:02 <samebchase> stassats: because warnings are scary.
15:15:19 <stassats> but they are about style
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15:16:34 <samebchase> okay, so in general, style warnings can safely be ignored in future?
15:16:46 <stassats> yes, unless it's your own code
15:17:08 <stassats> or if you wear socks with sandals
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15:18:44 <samebchase> hmm.
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15:25:39 <Zhivago> Understood and essentially unavoidable style warnings can be ignored safely. :)
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15:42:26 <naryl> Is there a list of which CL implementations implement which CDRs?
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15:43:45 <Zhivago> By which CDRs do you mean what? cadar, etc?
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15:46:31 <zorkmoid> i think naryl means cdr encoding
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15:48:06 <naryl> I mean http://cdr.eurolisp.org/
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15:48:34 <zorkmoid> oh, that is something entierly different...
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15:54:17 <drmeiste_> Is anyone familiar with how GRAY streams are implemented in ECL?
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15:56:24 <drmeiste_> Hang on - I'll come up with more intelligent questions soon.
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16:08:31 <drmeiste_> It looks like Gray streams are supported in ECL by allowing Instances to be streams and many of the CL functions that operate on streams dispatch to the appropriate function to operate on Gray streams.
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16:19:04 <zorkmoid> drmeiste_: you could look at mcclim which has an portableish implementation of gray
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16:21:30 <drmeister> zorkmoid: What is mcclim?
16:21:31 <minion> drmeister, memo from rudi: the CL stream functions need to call their Gray equivalent - e.g., force-output needs to call stream-force-output if handed a Gray stream
16:22:30 <drmeister> McClim: A GUI toolkit for Common Lisp
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16:23:14 <drmeister> I better follow ECL's approach to Gray streams - anytime I deviate from how ECL does things I run into trouble.
16:23:26 <zorkmoid> drmeister: :-)
16:24:02 <zorkmoid>   http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/clisp/hackers/phg/clim/src/stream/gray-streams.lisp
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16:24:26 <drmeister> I think I've figured it out - it's basically what rudi said - CL stream functions need to call their Gray equivalent generic function if they get an Instance as an argument.
16:25:05 <drmeister> The functions that ECL dispatches to Gray stream generic functions are: read-byte8 write-byte8 read-byte write-byte read-char write-char unread-char peek-char listen clear-input clear-output force-output finish-output input-p output-p interactive-p element-type get-position set-position column close open-stream-p streamp
16:25:40 <zorkmoid> drmeister: i gotta run ... when will you be on next time?
16:26:23 <drmeister> In a couple of hours and this evening.  I keep my IRC client running all the time.
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16:26:47 <zorkmoid> drmeister: ah, okie, i'll be here on friday ... of for a meeting tomorrow... curious what you wanted to talk about.
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16:27:44 <drmeister> Oh, no big deal - you expressed an interest in the CL/C++ interface - I was wondering what you were thinking about.
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16:28:17 <zorkmoid> drmeister: oh, nothing, just curious if i could use it for some things. ... and it is always fun to see more cl implementaions pop up.
16:28:35 <drmeister> No sweat then - we can talk more later.
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17:01:35 <oGMo> you can't have an :actual-type (:struct something) in CFFI via define-foreign-type?
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19:19:11 <luis> oGMo: hmm, file a bug report!
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19:20:05 <oGMo> at some point soonish .. it also appears you can't (defcstruct foo (next (:pointer (:struct foo)))) .. not sure they're related though
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19:39:54 <maxm> is it just me or freenode is having trouble?
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19:40:29 <pjb`> maxm: it's freenode.
19:40:40 <pjb`> maxm: check the global notices!
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19:49:15 <hitecnologys> Just curious is there anybody who is writing code on lisp at the moment?
19:49:45 <maxm> in lisp you mean? yes
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19:50:02 <stassats> hitecnologys: what else should be done?
19:50:33 <hitecnologys> stassats: maybe someone is reading something or just doing nothing
19:50:54 <dlowe> yeah, I am
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19:51:44 <H4ns> hitecnologys: what does it change if one is writing code right now?
19:52:04 <stassats> right now i'm typing in IRC
19:52:05 <hitecnologys> H4ns: Nothing, just curious.
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19:52:56 <hitecnologys> stassats: I didn't mean exact second.
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20:03:31 <hitecnologys> How to check if usocket socket (or stream?) is not closed?
20:04:15 <stassats> clhs open-stream-p
20:04:15 <specbot> http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_open_s.htm
20:04:26 <hitecnologys> Thanks.
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20:47:48 <drmeister> On what sort of input streams does it make sense to use CLEAR-INPUT - is it only interactive streams?
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21:24:04 <pjb`> I would propose to retitle CDR-4 into: Common lisp ammendeD Document Repository, so that it's actually CDDR-4.
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22:29:28 <pjb`> drmeister: it's not only interactive streams.  Imagine a socket stream receiving buffered messages, and an out-of-band signal (could be a TCP OOB, or from another connection), upon which it is determined the message currently being read is caducous.  You could use CLEAR-INPUT on that stream.
22:30:41 <drmeister> pjb`: Are socket streams usually implemented as Gray streams?  If so then it will be handled by the Gray streams.
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22:31:36 <pjb`> drmeister: I think most often, socket streams are provided by the implementation.
22:31:58 <drmeister> Ok, I'll make sure to implement CLEAR-INPUT when I hit socket streams.
22:32:07 <drmeister> Thanks!
22:32:11 <pjb`> But as an implementer, you can implement all the threads as subclasses of gray streams.
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22:33:06 <pjb`> drmeister: clear-input would work on buffered streams.  If there's no buffer, there's not much to clear.  (unless listen return true on the unbuffered stream).
22:33:12 <stassats> nice unused symbol in sbcl: REDEFINITION-REPLACES-COMPILED-FUNCTION-WITH-INTERPRETED-P
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22:43:48 <jasom_> I haven't looked at it in a while, but IIRC socket streams and file streams are both implemented as an internal fd-stream type on sbcl
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22:48:09 <drmeister> There are about 1000 symbols defined in the COMMON-LISP package.
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22:48:31 <stassats> 978
22:48:42 <jasom_> stassats: do you have that memorized?
22:48:45 <drmeister> I just counted the # of symbols I have covered and which I am still missing.   753 symbols defined    225 still missing.
22:48:49 <stassats> jasom_: yep
22:48:56 <drmeister> stassats: Good job!
22:48:59 -!- jasom_ is now known as jasom
22:49:17 <drmeister> 753+225 = 978  Good job for me!
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22:50:07 <stassats> now, a pop quiz: who can name the most without looking up
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22:51:23 <drmeister> It's a bit of a core dump but here's the specifics: http://pastebin.com/NcYZzn9a
22:51:45 <stassats> pi is missing?
22:51:50 <stassats> that's the easiest thing to correct!
22:52:11 <drmeister> Yeah - what the hell kind of scientific programmer am I anyway?
22:52:36 <Bike> clos:compilation-speed <-- didn't see that package prefix coming
22:53:03 <drmeister> Chunks of the numerical stack are missing, BOOLE-xxx are missing, a bunch of constants,  the PPRINT-xxx stuff is coming as soon as I finish Gray streams.
22:53:37 *stassats* is removing symbols from sbcl
22:54:04 <stassats> man, did people have a joy at removing things without removing from :export or what
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22:55:52 <drmeister> Bike: Yeah, that's a bit goofy.  It's first encountered in the ECL CLOS source files so that's why it ended up in CLOS.  I don't do much with declares yet.
22:56:43 <drmeister> Oh well, gotta run - see you all later.
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23:46:28 <fe[nl]ix> luis: I don't think that's a bug. define-foreign-type is supposed to be like typedef, which takes a symbol
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02:27:58 <loke> good morning
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03:05:50 <Modius> Think anyone would want to play with "Lenses" (like the ones in haskell) in a lisp context?
03:07:08 <Bike> from what little i know of them that seems pretty covered by setf
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03:10:09 <Zhivago> http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/emeijer/Papers/fpca91.pdf
03:11:30 <ckoch786__> If I have a list that contains a command how do I run the command on the rest of the list, the data? For example the command it taken from the list with car and the arguments to the command is the cdr
03:11:55 <Zhivago> Perhaps you might be interested in APPLY?
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03:12:27 <ckoch786__> Zhivago: thanks! I think that is what I was looking for
03:13:16 <Modius> I was thinking of knocking off some of the things that can be done with the ekmett lens library - not have any sort of understanding of them whatsoever :)
03:13:47 <Zhivago> modius: What kinds of things do you want to do?
03:14:04 <Modius> Composition of traversal with clone, i.e .the "set"
03:14:26 <Modius> Oh, I have the rudimentary examples he put on github working.  Uncertain if it'd be useful in idiomatic, or even very funcitonal, lisp programming
03:14:33 <Bike> look at fset?
03:14:34 <Modius> I've appreciated them in haskell, and missed them badly in FSharp
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03:18:30 <Modius> Bike:  If you were talking to me, I'm referring to plumbing for the logistics of accessing/mutating said containers, not an implementation (I have my own immutable containers).  E.g. a lens lib can wrap access to existing data structures like this, it doesn't take their place.
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04:07:33 <ryan_> Hello. Within Common Lisp, is it possible to use a character #\ as a key in an associated list? I'm working on a string to morse code program. :)
04:07:46 <Bike> sure.
04:09:00 <Quadrescence> ryan_, you mean using ASSOC?
04:09:31 -!- Watcher7 is now known as Watcher7|off
04:09:44 <ryan_> Correct, it seems to be returning NIL
04:09:53 <Quadrescence> DELC> (assoc #\x '((#\x 1) (#\y 2)) :test #'char=)
04:09:53 <Quadrescence> (#\x 1)
04:09:53 <Quadrescence> DELC> (assoc #\z '((#\x 1) (#\y 2)) :test #'char=)
04:09:53 <Quadrescence> NIL
04:11:49 <ryan_> It seems I've made a typo. Thanks for the help.
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04:33:03 <ryan_> Hmmm maybe this isn't as good as I thought. Trying to print different sequences of b and l for each character in a string.. http://paste.ofcode.org/5CdCEkjLZCbMHXbBzhiYwV
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04:35:20 <Bike> ryan_: two things: assoc returns the whole list (so (assoc #\x '((#\x 1))) => (#\x 1), not 1), and even if it returned a string, (map 'string ...) does not concat strings for you.
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04:37:45 <ryan_> Ok, I'll try once more.
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04:45:52 <ryan_> Is using nth considered bad style? Do most people prefer car/cdr ing?
04:46:03 <ryan_> I'm from C++ background.
04:47:10 <Bike> nth is easier to understand, isn't it? so there you go.
04:47:19 <Bike> linked lists aren't so great for random access, of course...
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04:48:06 <arrdem_> typically you want to design algorithms for (first, rest) usage and then use an array or vector for randomly accessed data.
04:48:33 <arrdem_> but nothing wrong (save performance possibly) with nth
04:49:45 <ryan_> Thanks, Common Lisp is something new and exciting for me. Lots of learning. I'd like an old Symbolics machine to toy with!
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04:51:43 <arrdem_> The only interesting thing is that it was lisp top to bottom IMHO. One of these days I'd love to see (or build) a Lisp OS for x86/arm but that's neither here nor there.
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04:52:43 <loke> The work environment with Emacs/SLIME is pretty "lispy" and flexible too
04:53:02 <loke> Not as "cool" perhaps, but still pretty close to the vision of a Lisp system
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04:53:58 <arrdem_> I mean if you look at late Symbolics product they were working on faking Lisp machines atop the DEC alpha architecture
04:54:11 <ryan_> I love Emacs actually. Using ERC right now. I also use it at work instead everyone else uses Ultra Edit (eew).
04:54:52 <arrdem_> erc will win forever the day I get a working IRC bouncer set up
04:55:36 <loke> erc is nice as long as you're not in more than 2 channels
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05:26:34 <p_l> arrdem: ERC is nice til you spam the channel
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05:28:13 <Quadrescence> ryan_, wait till the way you need to repair a lispm :(
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05:46:17 <tyrick> I am looking at a plotting function (defun plot (fn min max step)
05:46:17 <tyrick>   (loop for i from min to max by step do (loop repeat (funcall fn i) do (format t "*"))  (format t "~%")))
05:46:31 <tyrick> and was wondering why it always ends with NIL?
05:46:43 <Quadrescence> tyrick, that is what the function returns
05:46:49 <Bike> because that's what loop returns.
05:46:56 <Quadrescence> it is not really printing NIL
05:46:59 <tyrick> ah
05:47:04 <tyrick> loop returns NIL
05:47:18 <Quadrescence> well, it can return other things
05:47:35 <Bike> it does if you don't tell it to return something else, i meant
05:48:41 <Quadrescence> ryan_, did you finish that morse code program?
05:50:23 <ryan_> I did
05:50:28 <ryan_> One second, I'll host it.
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05:52:19 <ryan_> http://pastebin.com/fbVtFAVb
05:52:32 <ryan_> It uses b and l instead of . and -
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05:54:51 <ryan_> Quadrescence, do you have any ideas on my indentation and formatting?
05:55:26 <Quadrescence> It looks okay except for the defparameter
05:55:50 <ryan_> I used defparameter because Each
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05:56:08 <ryan_> time I loaded it into the repl it never overwrote the original value.
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05:56:28 <Quadrescence> there's nothing wrong with using defparameter there
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05:56:55 <ryan_> I take it defparameter should be single column?
05:57:05 <Quadrescence> No, just indented in more than I usually see.
05:57:18 <ryan_> Not sure why emacs did that...
05:57:52 <ryan_> Well it was a fun puzzle. :)
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05:58:24 <ryan_> At what point should you make a new function when you have heavy indentation within an existing function? What is the rule of thumb?
05:58:45 <ryan_> Well heavy nesting, I mean.
05:59:52 <H4ns> ryan_: i make a function whenever i find the nesting to become too deep :)
06:00:52 <H4ns> ryan_: often, i extract functions because i want to be able to trace some functionality.
06:01:05 <ryan_> Because I'm still new to Common Lisp, I'm often unsure if I simply can't see highly nested structures yet or if I should make a new function.
06:01:16 <ryan_> If that makes sense...
06:01:30 <ryan_> I imagine with time you can parse the nesting more easily.
06:01:40 <H4ns> ryan_: i can't really say so
06:02:02 <ryan_> Ok, thanks for the help. Time for bed.
06:02:07 <H4ns> ryan_: sometimes, it is harder to come up with a meaningful name than to just leave the code in line, sometimes not.
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06:15:57 <Quadrescence> I wrote a morse code program. Not sure if I like it though:  http://tinyurl.com/knhstkn
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06:17:30 <Quadrescence> split-sequence would make it nicer, but I still feel uncomfortable putting quickloads at the top of my files because compiling the file with slime seems broken with that
06:17:49 <Bike> slime? how?
06:17:49 <H4ns> (let ((+... looks fishy
06:18:24 <Quadrescence> H4ns, it looks fishy I agree but I like giving a hint about it being strictly constant, even if it's not a global one. Not sure if I like it
06:18:43 <Quadrescence> Bike, I just remember if I C-c C-k, I'd get package errors, or something
06:19:06 <Bike> well, yeah, quickload doesn't run at compile time
06:19:25 <H4ns> Quadrescence: i like to bind *standard-output* when i do a series of localized output operations.
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06:20:02 <Quadrescence> Bike, yeah I understand, so it's technically not "broken"
06:20:22 <Quadrescence> I also was doing (quote #.(quickload :foo)), but I forgot why that didn't work
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06:21:22 <zamlierza> I'm currently working on my first compiler, for a lisp-like language, written in Common Lisp (sbcl). Recently I've been playing with Racket.  Is anyone else here using one of the lisps?
06:21:31 <Bike> well, it's horrifying, for one :P how about (defmacro always-quickload (systems &rest keys) `(eval-when (...) (apply #'quickload systems keys))) in a utility file
06:21:42 <H4ns> zamlierza: this channel is about common lisp
06:21:57 <H4ns> zamlierza: many people here use sbcl.
06:23:01 <Quadrescence> Bike, Maybe if Xach_ included it by default. I just don't like writing such utility functions in every file (or every system init file)
06:25:17 <Quadrescence> Bike, would that even work?
06:25:33 <Bike> why wouldn't it?
06:25:38 <Quadrescence> eval-when :compile-toplevel?
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06:25:44 <Bike> yeah
06:26:20 <Quadrescence> Well, if I just have (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) (ql:quickload )), symbols are still resolved at read time, so you still get symbol errors
06:26:50 <Bike> forms are compiled sequentially, if you have the eval-when first it'll work
06:27:40 <Quadrescence> Bike, I have (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) (ql:quickload :split-sequence)) first, and did C-c-k, and get ; caught ERROR: READ error during COMPILE-FILE:
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06:28:42 <Quadrescence>   failed AVER: (NULL CURRENT)
06:28:42 <Quadrescence> This is probably a bug in SBCL itself.
06:28:43 <Quadrescence> ha :(
06:29:33 <Bike> oh, hey, i might have filed that one
06:30:38 <Bike> lp 1042610
06:30:38 <specbot> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1042610
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06:31:53 <Bike> but, that's because of a problem with split-sequence, it'll work for say string-case
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06:35:15 <Quadrescence> Bike, you're right. What do you think the issue with split-seq is?
06:35:42 <Bike> the asd does the #.(w-o-f version string trick
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06:36:47 <Quadrescence> Bike, are you saying that results in the failed aver?
06:37:09 <Bike> Oh, I thought you just meant split-sequence not loading.
06:37:21 <Quadrescence> well it's not if I add :LOAD-TOPLEVEL
06:37:43 <Quadrescence> why would that, #.(w-o-f ) affect :COMPILE-TOPLEVEL ?
06:38:08 <Bike> it doesn't, that's just something executed at read time, that causes an error
06:38:18 <Bike> as you can see in my bug report, apparently any read error results in the bug
06:38:24 <Vivitron> quadrescence: my solution is to have a blanket system for experimental things; I would have added the more-code.lisp to that system, and that system would have all dependencies declared in its system definition
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06:38:54 <Quadrescence> Vivitron, well when I construct entire ASDF systems, I don't have issues, because quickloading Just Works
06:39:06 <Vivitron> exactly.
06:39:14 <Quadrescence> But when I have a single file and want to use quickloaded systems, I run into these kinds of problems, like with SPLIT-SEQUENCE
06:39:21 <Bike> hm, the error there seems kind of weird, it checks *compile-file-pathname* but that's wherever the quickloading file is
06:40:16 <Vivitron> so looking at your link I would make a lisp-random.asd and putting the single file into a usable system would be a one line change
06:40:42 <Quadrescence> Bike, there are two distinct issues we are talking about here: the failure with just :COMPILE-TOPLEVEL, and the failed aver with :LOAD-TOPLEVEL
06:40:50 <Quadrescence> Vivitron, meh
06:41:52 <Bike> the failure with :load-toplevel is my bug, the failure with :compile-toplevel is because version.lisp-expr doesn't exist (which is the same problem as :load-toplevel, but that escalates it to a bug for god knows why)
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06:41:56 <Bike> (I think)
06:42:52 <Quadrescence> Bike, I am trying to understand why the :compile-toplevel is an issue, or, well, why the version.lisp-expr causes an issue.
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06:43:41 <Quadrescence> I guess I should look at when the lisp-expr is created
06:44:01 <Quadrescence> or, why it's being created in the current directory (is that right?)
06:44:09 <Bike> because when you C-c k your test file, that binds *compile-file-pathname*; when you quickload split-sequence, asdf reads the split-sequence.asd, which includes a reference to *c-f-p*
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06:44:32 <Quadrescence> ahhh
06:44:43 <Bike> the reference to *c-f-p* is intended to make it possible to look at the version.lisp-expr in the same directory as the asd, and it works when you compile the system or whatever
06:44:53 <Bike> at least i think that's what's happening.
06:45:37 <Quadrescence> but just to be clear, that hasn't to do with SLIME, that has to do with COMPILE-FILE
06:46:26 <Bike> yeah.
06:49:13 <Bike> yeah, i checked the bug outside of slime, just to be sure
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06:57:27 <Quadrescence> I wonder if it makes sense for QL to set up some logical pathname translations, so we have "QUICKLISP;<SYSTEM>;" or whatnot. Maybe that's a bad idea if it couples systems with quicklisp
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07:20:26 <Quadrescence> ARRAY-TOTAL-SIZE-LIMIT gives us the max length of a one-dimensional array, however, it gives us the greatest lower bound of such an array. Is there a better way to find the size limit of an array of element type S? Or, in this specific case, the size limit of a simple-string?
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07:22:49 <Bike> you gonna have a string with half a billion characters?
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07:24:06 <Quadrescence> Bike, What if in 20 years we have an implementation where arrays are 1024 maximum, but strings are special and can be 1024*1024?
07:24:30 <Bike> i'm hoping in twenty years lisp will have improved.
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07:25:02 <Quadrescence> Even perhaps on an embedded platform?
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07:25:28 <Quadrescence> I know I am perhaps getting a little bit contrived. Just trying to write correct code.
07:25:53 <Bike> ok, well, I don't think there's any way to do it portably. you could maybe figure something out from sbcl saetps
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07:27:22 <Quadrescence> I didn't think so either.
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07:48:31 <amszmidt> I happened to write this for kicks, http://www.update.uu.se/~ams/cl/html4.lisp
07:49:31 <pnpuff> amszmidt: what are you looking for here?
07:49:52 <amszmidt> Nothing, thought I'd share a pretty hack.
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07:50:40 <H4ns> amszmidt: just curious, how did the existing html generators not suit you?
07:51:17 <jdz_> and what is the big difference from yaclml?
07:51:23 -!- jdz_ is now known as jdz
07:51:52 <amszmidt> H4ns: Oh, I didn't look at them to much ...
07:52:12 <Quadrescence> H4ns, "they weren't written by me!"
07:52:26 <amszmidt> yaclml seemed complicated code-wise, with the whole keywords before body hackery..
07:53:18 <amszmidt> That is about it... No special reason other than a few minutes to spare to crank out something. :-)
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07:55:18 <H4ns> amszmidt: another curious question, why do you publish your emails on the web?
07:56:00 <amszmidt> H4ns: Why not, not like there is anything fun in there.
07:56:09 <H4ns> amszmidt: just wondering.
07:56:52 <amszmidt> H4ns: Fair enough!
07:57:10 <jdz> amszmidt: and "a few minutes" you say?
07:58:28 *amszmidt* wonders if he came to the police station...
07:59:07 <H4ns> amszmidt: i was really just curious, no offense intended
07:59:43 <H4ns> amszmidt: it is not like people usually publish their home directories on web servers.  even though it might not be a bad idea to have that as a default.  anyway.
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08:00:08 <amszmidt> H4ns: Ah, well, I've done it for the last two decades..
08:00:23 <amszmidt> It is actually quite useful I found.
08:01:51 <Quadrescence> amszmidt, not to push the off-topic further, but if I sent an email and asked for it to be private, would it still be published?
08:02:07 <Quadrescence> (i just find it a little curious too)
08:02:44 <amszmidt> Quadrescence: If you would want it to be private, then I could remove it... Sure.
08:02:55 <Quadrescence> Okay.
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08:08:58 <amszmidt> Hopefully you all found something interesting in my mailbox :-)
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08:09:51 <H4ns> "cl code, nah, seen to many of those html generator, let me flex my swedish language skills instead and read some of his email"
08:10:16 <amszmidt> Hahaha
08:10:18 <H4ns> at least i don't need to guess a password!
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08:13:23 <amszmidt> At univ. we didn't have passwords, just usernames ... everyone could read everything... Reading other peoples email isn't that interesting really.
08:14:31 <H4ns> email must be secret because it could contain passwords.  no wait... :D
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08:16:12 <amszmidt> :-)
08:16:22 <pnpuff> ... someone says "the united confederation of strings" XD
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08:16:44 <amszmidt> It must be a conspiracy!
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08:38:29 <Quadrescence> Is TYPE-ERROR the right thing to signal if you access an array out-of-bounds? It seems so for ELT, but it's unclear for AREF.
08:41:12 <H4ns> Quadrescence: i'd say so.  see http://stackoverflow.com/questions/13626880/simple-type-error for rainer's explanation
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08:44:32 <Quadrescence> yes, that was my thinking as well
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08:45:31 <Quadrescence> H4ns, But it gets a little tricker for your own defined types that act as sequences, but don't have a natural (MY-SEQ n) type. So what would the type error look like then?
08:47:25 <H4ns> Quadrescence: that i can't answer.  you need to wait for one of the compiler-savvy people to wake up :)
08:47:41 <H4ns> or use stackoverflow to get rainer's reply
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09:31:04 <Quadrescence> Is there any lisp library equivalent to this: https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/big-string ?
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09:36:41 <mal___> the classic emacs buffer implementations perhaps?
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09:38:59 <Quadrescence> mal___, almost surely not, that requires efficient insertion
09:39:15 <Quadrescence> mal___, that would be more like CL-GAP-BUFFER or FLEXISTREAMS
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09:59:07 <ogamita> Quadrescence: IIRC, there are a couple of implementations of cords or similar data structures.
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09:59:49 <ogamita> But perhaps I'm confusing with C libraries. :-(
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10:16:10 <Quadrescence> The second argument is a SIMPLE-STRING, not a (SIMPLE-ARRAY CHARACTER (*))
10:16:15 <Quadrescence> I thought these were the same
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10:23:35 <Quadrescence> (Are they?)
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10:27:43 <jdz> Quadrescence: that's the definition of simple-string, according to my understanding of the spec
10:28:03 <Quadrescence> I wonder why SBCL is barking at me then.
10:28:29 <jdz> maybe because it knows about the one, and not the other
10:28:48 <jdz> somebody should tell it that they are the same
10:29:31 <jdz> or maybe somebody has a reason not to
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10:32:48 <Krystof> a simple-string includes not just an one-dimensional array that is specialized to hold any possible character, but also all one-dimensional simple arrays that are specialized to hold subtypes of character
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10:33:23 <Krystof> so, if base-char /= character, then simple-string includes both (simple-array character (*)) and simple-base-string [which is (simple-array base-char (*))]
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10:34:14 <Krystof> also, if your implementation "supports" arrays specialized to hold no objects at all, which, formally, all conforming implementations should, then (simple-array nil (*)) is also a subtype of simple-string
10:34:34 <Quadrescence> Krystof, but doesn't (simple-array character (*)) subsume (simple-array base-char (*)) ?
10:36:40 <Quadrescence> In other words, if  u < v, then (simple-array u (*)) < (simple-array v (*))   where < indicates a subtype relation
10:38:18 <Quadrescence> what I seem to be gathering from you is that simple-string = union of (simple-array u_i (*)) for u_i = {character, simple-char, extended-char, nil}, but if the above is true, and since character > simple-char/etc, then simple-string really is equivalent to (simple-array character (*)) exactly
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10:39:12 *Quadrescence* is tempted to ask stassats for a fresh opinion.
10:39:20 <Posterdati> hi
10:39:29 <pnpuff> now we run!
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10:39:34 <Posterdati> is anyone using lisp500 ?
10:40:31 <Krystof> no,
10:40:36 <Krystof> Quadrescence: no, it doesn't
10:40:48 <Krystof> just like bit-vector is not a subtype of (array fixnum (*))
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10:40:52 <Krystof> even though bits are fixnums
10:41:23 <Krystof> please listen to me instead of asking anyone else
10:41:23 <Quadrescence> wow, that is really weird to me
10:41:32 <Quadrescence> Krystof, I am listening, and I did not ask anyone else.
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10:42:06 <Krystof> a bit-vector can hold only bits.  You can't do (setf (aref bit-vector 4) 2)
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10:42:38 <Krystof> a (simple-array fixnum (*)) can hold only fixnums.  You can do (setf (aref s-a-fixnum 4) 2), but you can't do (setf (aref s-a-fixnum 4) 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000)
10:42:58 <Quadrescence> yes, that makes sense to me
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10:43:42 <Krystof> so a simple-bit-vector is not a subtype of a (simple-array fixnum (*)), because they are objects with different operations on them
10:44:50 <stassats> Quadrescence: you wanted to know whether i hate nil-arrays? why, i do!
10:45:00 <Quadrescence> stassats, :)
10:45:05 <Krystof> similarly, you can't do (setf (aref simple-base-string 0) #\)
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10:45:18 <Krystof> [unless your implementation has decided that all characters are base-chars]
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10:45:52 <Krystof> but in implementations where base-chars are a subtype of character, then simple-base-string and (simple-array character (*)) are disjoint types
10:46:06 <stassats> yeah, specialization doesn't really have subtypes
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10:47:04 <stassats> i guess that's why it's called "specialization"
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10:49:50 <Krystof> Quadrescence: another example: vectors which can hold anything are of type (simple-array t (*))
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10:49:57 <Krystof> you can use SVREF on them
10:50:22 <Krystof> you can't use SVREF on bitvectors or strings or, indeed, anything other than objects of type (simple-array t (*))
10:50:33 <Krystof> and yet everything is a subtype of T
10:53:26 <Quadrescence> Krystof, so I guess by this, an implementation is not free to specialize something like #(1 0 1 0) to a bit-vector?
10:53:43 <Krystof> certainly not
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10:58:09 <Quadrescence> Krystof, okay, so to re-say what you said, hopefully, a simple-string can represent (simple-array character (*)), or it can possibly be something more specialized, such as (simple-array base-char (*)) -- equivalent to simple-base-string -- or two of the other types. (simple-array character (*)) must represent only values that can store any character type
10:59:03 <Quadrescence> (and, specifically, not a more specialized type)
10:59:05 <stassats> simple-string is just a union type of anything that is a subtype of character
11:00:15 <Quadrescence> stassats, yes, but clearly I am (or was) misunderstanding that (simple-array character) != union of (simple-array u_i) where u_i is a subtype of character
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11:04:33 <Quadrescence> I guess the way that makes it clear to me is:  (simple-array (or nil base-char extended-char)) is not the same as (simple-array base-char) U (simple-array extended-char) U (simple-array nil), even though there exists an injective function from the latter to the former.
11:05:14 <stassats> specialization just do not work like this
11:05:21 <stassats> s/do/does/
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11:06:50 <Quadrescence> stassats, what do you mean it doesn't work like that? I thought specialization was the reason the above weren't equivalent. Unless you're saying that I should just throw away any sort of set theoretic approach when it comes to looking at parametric/specialized types.
11:07:25 <stassats> yes, specialization is the reason that above is not equivalent
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11:09:22 <Krystof> set-theoretic logic might not work when you deal with just the pure sets of objects
11:09:48 <Krystof> I think it only works when you add "admissible operations" (or, equivalently, "concrete representations")
11:10:08 <Krystof> otherwise you end up with ideas like being able to convert #(1 0 1 0) to a bitvector
11:10:15 <Quadrescence> right, i think that is the core of my error
11:10:45 <Krystof> an array which happens to hold only bits right now is not of the same type as an array which can only ever hold bits
11:10:51 <Krystof> even if their contents are the same
11:13:24 <stassats> Krystof: wouldn't it be nice if you could!
11:13:50 <Quadrescence> I suppose you perhaps (though I'm not sure) could if everything were immutable
11:14:48 <Quadrescence> Krystof, (simple-array * (*)) and (simple-array T (*)) are analogous to simple-string and (simple-array character (*)), correct?
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11:16:31 <Quadrescence> maybe I should say "almost analogous", since (s-a *) is a supertype of (s-a T), whereas s-s and (s-a char) don't have that same relationship
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11:30:47 <Krystof> no you were right first time: simple-string is a supertype of (simple-arrray character (*))
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11:32:33 <Quadrescence> oops, yes, simple-string includes (s-a char_
11:32:34 <Quadrescence> )
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11:35:00 <Quadrescence> Krystof, Thanks for the patience and help.
11:35:39 <stassats> also, nil arrays, hate, hate
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11:36:49 <Quadrescence> stassats, I remember I (as a practical joke) sent an email to a commercial vendor saying their implementation is buggy because the nil array wasn't supported as it should be by the standard.
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11:48:27 <ejbs> I was thinking about how you could use CLOS for creating memoizing methods. So for example if I had a factorial method I could have a :around method (are they called 'methods' when you attach :before/:after/:around to them?) that checks if the value is already in a hashtable slot of an object whose class extends standard-method and if not call the next method. Is this viable? Can it be done without the MOP? How would one do this?
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11:55:26 <H4ns> ejbs: i'd not use the clos for that, although it is entirely possible to use it to implementations for ordinary functions.
11:55:49 <H4ns> ejbs: i'd not use clos because that kind of memoization would not work with generic functions.
11:56:29 <luis> Anybody have a photo of the ECLM crowd?
11:56:31 <H4ns> ejbs: the usual way to implement memoization is bei hooking into the fdefinition of a function.  i think i've also advice being used, but not sure.
11:56:45 <H4ns> luis: edi does.  i think it'll get published soon.
11:57:47 <spacebat> H4ns: why wouldn't it work with generics, because you can't guarantee that there is nothing :around the memoizer?
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11:59:55 <ejbs> H4ns: "hooked into the fdefinition of a function" - you mean that the coder himself has to assure memoization when writing the function? 'Cuz that's what I'd like to avoid
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12:01:03 <H4ns> spacebat: the memoizer would use the generic function dispatch mechanism and thus it would no longer be available for the application.
12:01:36 <H4ns> ejbs: the hooking can be done by the way of a macro or function.  at some point, the programmer needs to specify which functions should be memoized.
12:02:06 <H4ns> ejbs: (i.e. (defun-memoize name (args) ...)  or (memoize-function name))
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12:02:45 <H4ns> ejbs: make sure you look at the existing code.  it is a good example of how old code can still be relevant today
12:03:05 <ejbs> H4ns: Well, where can I find code that memoizes functions?
12:03:09 <H4ns> ejbs: although threading makes things a little more complicated than it may appear from reading ancient sources
12:03:15 <H4ns> ejbs: you use the google thing.
12:03:27 <H4ns> ejbs: should i google for you or do you manage that on your own?
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12:05:59 <spacebat> I guess I misunderstood the 'using clos' bit - but I guess it might be possible using nonstandard method combination
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12:06:46 <spacebat> not that you'd want to without good reason
12:06:50 <H4ns> spacebat: which does not change the problem:  if the metalibrary (memoization) uses generic function dispatch (with whatever method combination), the application can't use it anymore.
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12:08:02 <spacebat> couldn't the library re-dispatch to a constructed effective method?
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12:08:56 <H4ns> spacebat: "can't use" is a bit strong, admitted.  there are probably ways, but simply replacing the fdefinition or using advice is so much simpler.
12:09:08 <H4ns> simple solutions are simpler!
12:09:10 <H4ns> :D
12:09:16 <spacebat> so true!
12:09:32 <ejbs> H4ns: Heh-heh. I guess I could do that, I just assumed that you were talking about code frm the '80s/'90s - which I guess was a silly assumption.
12:10:00 <H4ns> ejbs: that code from the 80ies + 90ies still exists, and that is the code i was referring to.
12:10:05 <H4ns> ejbs: like in the ai-archive.
12:10:06 <spacebat> all the best code comes from the 80s, when words were bytes and they were precious
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12:11:06 <ejbs> H4ns: Well, I have no idea how to google for that kind of code. I also have no idea what the AI-archive is (could you give me an url for that one?). Do not fret however, I'll search for it myself.
12:11:36 <adeht> google for cmu ai archive
12:12:13 <ejbs> Ooh, okay, cool. Thanks adeht
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12:22:25 <H4ns> ejbs: "common lisp memoization" gives me loads of stuff that seems on-topic
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07:45:27 <pnpuff> I'm reading COMMON LISP: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation"" and I've an issue when I copy the code from the book and paste it to the REPL. I get an error because of the #\RIGHT_SINGLE_QUOTATION_MARK is an undefined dispatch macro character. I want that the reader consider the U2019 Unicode character as the U0027 character to semplify my activity. I do not know how this could be possible so I'm looking for help. Thanks.
07:46:11 <pnpuff> *simplify
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07:49:52 <stassats> type it by hand
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07:51:51 <pnpuff> stassats: sure... I do it but surely there is a smarter solution that unfotunately I actually don't know...
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08:17:58 <entitativity> pnpuff the idea is to build muscle memory and hammer the language into your brain by repeatedly typing in the code examples in the books. You should rarely be copying and pasting anything.
08:18:56 <entitativity> repetition does wonders for your subconscious memory
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08:22:27 <pnpuff_> entitativity: thanks, I've trivially solved the simplest case: http://paste.lisp.org/display/137522 .... and now I'm trying to solve the case in which I have  #
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08:25:37 <rszeno> pnpuff, this is cl-2 you learn from this?
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08:28:05 <stassats> pnpuff: that's just (set-syntax-from-char #\ #\')
08:29:19 <stassats> (set-dispatch-macro-character #\# #\ (get-dispatch-macro-character #\# #\'))
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09:18:25 <pnpuff> wow, the modified sharp-right-quote dispatching macro character is working now! :)
09:19:13 <pnpuff> ops .. dispatching read macro
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09:53:40 <sauerkrause> copy it into <your favorite editor>, s/U+2019/'/, copy into repl?
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10:09:28 <pnpuff>  sauerkrause : I've defined only two new functions and used set-macro-character and set-dispatch-macro-character to modify the readtable so my work of copy-pasting from the book to the REPL is simplified...
10:10:22 <sauerkrause> I was scrolled back and didn't see the set-dispatch-macro-character bit
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10:12:16 <pnpuff> sauerkrause: http://paste.lisp.org/display/137522#1
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10:15:24 <rszeno> pnpuff did you read first 6 chapters from onlisp?
10:15:52 <pnpuff> rszeno: no
10:16:40 <rszeno> ok, i was only curios
10:17:43 <rszeno> why do you change books and don't use only one?
10:22:29 <pnpuff> rszeno: I use only one book but I want simplify my learning...
10:22:55 <rszeno> how?
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11:22:18 <viromano> need help getting lispbuilder-sdl to work. I have installed emacs, sbcl, quicklisp and slime and AFAIK they are all working
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11:22:57 <viromano> FWIW I'm on archlinux
11:23:52 <Xach> What happens when you try to use lispbuilder-sdl?
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11:25:11 <viromano> I have an old short code that I try to load in slime that uses lispbuilder-sdl, I installed it on windows a while back succesfully with the help of some folks here but I never understood the process and now can't redo it on linux. I'll see what the error msg was
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11:26:18 <viromano> ok when I try to load myprogram.lisp, it says "Package SDL does not exist"
11:26:34 <viromano> I have installed SDL from pacman
11:27:38 <viromano> it said something else earlier, about lispbuilder-sdl specifically, but I can't remember what
11:28:30 <Xach> viromano: does myprogram.lisp load lispbuilder-sdl?
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11:30:38 <viromano> Xach: apparently not
11:31:06 <Xach> That could be problematic.
11:32:09 <viromano> I wonder how I had loaded it on my windows setup... no recollection whatsoever
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11:32:45 <Xach> a mystery of the universe
11:34:00 <viromano> my problem with all this is I don't understand how these things work together. like I have installed so many tools I don't know how to configure, the order or loading things is also lost on me
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11:34:22 <Xach> yep, that'll be a problem.
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11:35:36 <Xach> when you start a CL session, you have to load the code for the libraries you want to use. they don't stay loaded from session to session. there are ways to make your program load its required libraries automatically when you load your program.
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11:37:26 <viromano> would this be a concern of the lisp implementation (sbcl) or should I include all the loading in my main.lisp or whatever
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11:41:10 <Xach> viromano: usually you write the relationships in another file called my-program.asd
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11:41:36 <Xach> that file details what files make up your project and the order in which they should be loaded, and what libraries should be loaded before that to support your program
11:41:58 <Xach> http://xach.livejournal.com/278047.html is something i wrote about the process a while ago
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11:44:12 <viromano> thanks, seems concise, I'll try to follow that
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11:50:53 <Xach> I do something a little different now, http://www.quicklisp.org/beta/faq.html undeer "local projects" has some info
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13:23:01 <viromano> I really can't wrap my head around this stuff. lispbuilder-sdl instructions seem outdated too
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13:24:08 <viromano> I should mention I'm new to not only lispbuilder-sdl and quicklisp, but lisp in general and emacs
13:24:39 <viromano> I need someone to walk me through this like a child
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13:25:41 <viromano> google really isn't helping at all, I'm just more and more confused the more I read
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13:41:17 <mach> is it possible ? an thinking machine
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13:45:51 <Xach> sure
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14:06:05 <viromano> can anyone recommend a vi-like control scheme overhaul for emacs? it seems like there are different implementations
14:07:26 <viromano> whoever came up with the emacs shortcuts is an idiot. easy to learn initially because of letters matching commands but extremely bad for hands
14:07:32 <pjb> M-x viper
14:07:43 <pjb> M-x evil
14:07:48 <pjb> and there's another one IIRC too.
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14:10:42 <mach> how to run lisp code within vim
14:11:19 <mach> without !clisp <file>
14:12:37 <hitecnologys> Is this possible to convert bit-array to number?
14:12:42 <hitecnologys> Greetings, btw.
14:13:20 <hitecnologys> mach: try slimv
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14:14:16 <hitecnologys> viromano: I use evil-mode with some custom keybindigs, it feel almost like vim
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14:16:47 <viromano> I'm just checking out these two (viper & evil), evil sounds a little more compelling so far
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09:57:38 <pjb> kami: most string- functions actually operate on string designators. (deftype string-designator () '(or string symbol character))
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09:58:07 <pjb> (string< #\a 'a) => nil
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10:06:09 <Quadrescence> pjb, If I want to have a non-toplevel package form, is it sufficient to just do eval-when :compile and :load?
10:06:31 <Quadrescence> e.g., (unless (find-package "FOO") (defpackage foo ))
10:06:48 <Quadrescence> (or anyone)
10:07:33 <fe[nl]ix> why do that at all ?
10:08:08 <Quadrescence> the UNLESS or the EVAL-WHEN?
10:09:05 <Quadrescence> regarding UNLESS: because in this case, symbols are exported late, and i guess the standard says it's undefined if you redefine a package that isn't isomorphic in its contents or whatnot
10:11:01 <Quadrescence> Maybe only :COMPILE-TOPLEVEL is needed, but I'm really not sure.
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10:12:34 <pjb> You want all three.
10:12:42 <pjb> :compile-toplevel is used when you compile-file
10:12:49 <pjb> :load-toplevel is used when you load the .fasl
10:12:55 <pjb> :execute is used when you load the .lisp
10:13:30 <Quadrescence> pjb, that will give the same effect as if it was a toplevel form?
10:13:38 <pjb> Yes.
10:13:49 <pjb> But still subject to your unless condition.
10:13:57 <Quadrescence> yes of course
10:14:44 <pjb> Further, defpackage could be written just as make-package and other function calls.  The drastic difference would be with in-package.
10:15:16 <pjb> (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) (if (zerop (random 2)) (in-package :foo) (in-package :bar))) ;-)
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10:16:15 <pjb> or (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) (in-package :compil-pack)) (eval-when (:load-toplevel) (in-package :load-pack))  (defparameter *v* (load-time-value (intern "Hello")))
10:16:55 <Quadrescence> :))
10:17:39 <Quadrescence> It seems odd to me that quicklisp would show loading the package three times. I guess I'm used to only seeing it once.
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10:18:50 <pjb> quicklisp may compile before loading the .fasl. So 1 or 2 should be expected.
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10:20:18 <Quadrescence> but is three expected?
10:20:28 <pjb> I fail to explain it.
10:21:08 <pjb> Or perhaps it's the defpackage form that makes it log something, whether it's executed or not?
10:21:19 <Quadrescence> perhaps
10:21:26 <pjb> IIRC, it's done in a macroexpansion hook.
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10:22:43 <Quadrescence> ah
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10:29:54 <kami> pjb: I find no mention of string-designator in string-downcase in sbcl. It calls the function string on the argument which coerces the argument into a string.
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10:30:23 <kami> pjb: forget the rubbish I sid.
10:30:27 <kami> *said
10:31:28 <kami> the simple-type-error which is thrown in string says it all
10:31:39 <kami> :expected-type 'string-designator
10:32:37 *kami* 's ability to read has suffered lately
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10:37:29 <PuercoPop> Is usocket or iolib the goto library for sockets? Just started looking around iolib and its documentation is way better than usockets.
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10:41:03 <phadthai> PuercoPop: iolib has more features and uses cffi which works on various implementations, however it requires a POSIX system
10:41:05 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
10:42:26 *PuercoPop* nods if POSIX system is the only drawback then iolib it is.
10:42:29 <phadthai> pjb's examples keep amazing me :)
10:42:56 <phadthai> (unrelated to the sockets question)
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10:45:37 <PuercoPop> is pjb Peter Keller? If so I agree. all libraries should be as good documentente as iolib
10:46:32 <pjb> Nope.
10:46:50 <pjb> PuercoPop: use /who pjb
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10:49:42 <PuercoPop> ahh ok
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10:51:46 <Quadrescence> peter keller is a cool dude
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11:21:40 <fe[nl]ix> hi PuercoPop
11:21:55 <fe[nl]ix> if you need help come on #iolib
11:23:10 <PuercoPop> hi, thanks! I will most certainly do. I have to congratulate #iolib on their documenation.
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11:26:15 <fe[nl]ix> thank Peter for writing the docs
11:26:23 <fe[nl]ix> I only wrote iolib :)
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13:12:09 <PuercoPop> fe[nl]ix: one question. how does one build texinfo-docstrings?
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13:39:12 <msmith> hello all, so I'm trying my hand at writing a multi-threaded tcp server.  the problem I am having is I can't write back out to the socket connection from within another thread.  I've tried wrapping the connection in an object and passing it to a function that gets executed in another thread and then writing to that connection.  Can anyone tell me how to do this?
13:39:30 <Xach> msmith: what implementation?
13:39:37 <msmith> sbcl
13:39:53 <msmith> hey Xach
13:40:04 <H4ns> msmith: when you sa "can't write", what exactly do you mean?
13:40:15 <H4ns> msmith: do you have a simple example that illustrates your problem?
13:40:33 <stassats> as long as you don't do that from multiple threads at the same time, you should be ok
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13:44:58 <msmith> H4ns: I mean returning data to a connected client.  I'm testing it with a telnet connection.  if I write to the socket from within the main thread it works fine.  I forgot which pasting utility we use in the is forum can you point me to it?
13:45:23 <H4ns> paste.lisp.org
13:45:26 <stassats> the topic should remind you
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13:45:49 <msmith> stassats: k thanks
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13:54:55 <msmith> H4ns: http://paste.lisp.org/+2Y9C
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13:56:14 <msmith> H4ns stassats, so there is a writer thread that listens to a queue for data and when it finds and entry it sends it to write-to-socket
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13:56:50 <stassats> oh no, dangling parenthesis!
13:57:45 <msmith> stassats:  :-) only because I'm changing code a lot.  I'll clean it up afterwards
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13:58:40 <stassats> do you flush the buffer?
13:58:56 <pnpuff> maybe would be nice look the the Catalan number
13:59:56 *maxm* found "flush" confuses ppl, as with SBCL you have to use finish-output on socket streams, not flush-output
14:00:20 <maxm> re: the problem hitechnology guy had with his game server
14:00:27 <stassats> there's no flush-output
14:00:35 <stassats> so, there's no possibility for confusion here
14:01:36 <maxm> hmm I swear there was "flush-output", maybe it was usocket specific? got to dig up my log now
14:02:21 <pjb> in ccl, there's a :share option to open and other stream creating functions.  Would there be something similar in sbcl?
14:02:30 <maxm> ah I meant force-output, not flush-output
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14:02:48 <stassats> force-output should usually work just as well as finish-output
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14:02:52 <maxm> the more I learn the more easily things get mixed up in my head :-)
14:03:01 <msmith> stassats: no, I'll look into that
14:03:18 <pjb> force-output should be faster, since it doesn't wait for the flushing to finish.
14:03:20 <maxm> yea he had force-output, which for sb-bsd-sockets seems to be a no-op or a partial flush
14:03:28 <maxm> had to replace with finish-output
14:05:03 <maxm> there you go, pjb had the right answer.. I'm actually tracing through SBCL code on how to read things, and it appears anything other then manually doing READ-BYTE on SBCL's fd-streams can end up in serve-events
14:05:30 <maxm> no wonder everyone implements their own decoders rather then using (read-line)
14:05:42 <stassats> huh?
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14:06:09 <maxm> stassats: I'll respond on #sbcl since its pretty sbcl specific
14:06:27 <stassats> you can do it here too
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14:17:23 <msmith> maxm stasssats H4ns  force-output worked thanks
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14:33:15 <Denommus> hi
14:33:34 <Denommus> I have good and bad news (for me, of course)
14:33:55 <Xach> Bad first
14:34:17 <Denommus> the bad doesn't make sense without the good, actually
14:34:29 <pjb> one more reason to tell it first :-)
14:34:32 <Denommus> my boss allowed me to use Lisp as a scripting language
14:34:36 <pjb> Good.
14:34:49 <Denommus> but I didn't manage to compile ECL to Android, only Chicken Scheme
14:34:58 <pjb> Work smarter!
14:35:04 <H4ns> try mocl
14:35:11 <pjb> or ccl.
14:35:22 <Denommus> I don't have the time to wait for mocl
14:35:36 <H4ns> Denommus: it already works, i've tried it.
14:35:39 <Denommus> is CCL embeddable?
14:35:47 <H4ns> (for some value of "work" and "tried")
14:36:10 <Denommus> well, I can't use something that "works", it must work. XD
14:36:32 <Denommus> but let me check it
14:37:01 <H4ns> haha, "must work" and "cl on android" are two things you'll not find.
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14:37:37 <pjb> Denommus: what do you mean? android is a linux system.
14:37:41 <Denommus> the problem with ECL is that they made the Makefile thinking only about 32 bits processors' users, not x64. Who still uses 32 bits nowadays?
14:37:42 <stassats> an older version of ccl worked well on android
14:37:45 <stassats> but then it got broken
14:38:06 <pjb> Denommus: if it's only a question of Makefile
14:38:10 <Denommus> pjb: it's a Linux, but it's an ARM
14:38:23 <pjb> Hence ccl which works nice on arm.
14:38:43 <pjb> At least when I tried it on qemu-arm: https://www.informatimago.com/articles/raspberrypi/ccl-sur-qemu.html
14:38:44 antonv_ [5d7d2a74@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.42.116] has joined #lisp
14:38:50 <Denommus> pjb: well, I received the news yesterday, at the end of the day. So I'll start to hack the implementations now
14:39:30 <Denommus> pjb: oh, so your question was about embeddable. Well, the CL code must work with some C++ code, that's why I asked if CCL was embeddable
14:40:07 <maxm> stassats: see, I think I was right.. "XO send signal to launch torpedoes" "I can't this computer seems frozen responding to my last command" "It can't happen! Our programmers use Lisp, and read-char-no-hang!" ..boom!..
14:40:26 <stassats> what are you talking about?
14:40:42 <stassats> i only asked you about serve-event, which is not enabled by default
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14:41:11 <maxm> stassats: SBCL read-char-no-hang will block if multi-byte character is partially read as per http://paste.lisp.org/display/137713
14:41:22 <pjb> Well, you can embed C++ code in ccl with cffi.
14:41:42 <stassats> maxm: and why are you telling me this?
14:41:50 <pjb> You can even call main from ccl if you want to keep that part :-)
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14:41:53 <stassats> i'm not interesting in read-char-no-hang
14:41:55 <Denommus> almost 10000 seconds for mocl official release. Only 2 hours.
14:41:56 <stassats> interested
14:42:14 <Denommus> while I wait for mocl, I'll test Chicken Scheme and Chibi Scheme performance
14:42:19 <maxm> well its all same to me, what I meant is reason why it seems standard to read bytes and decode yourself on sockets, rather then use implementation provided facility
14:42:37 <Denommus> it's better to have a Scheme than no Lisp at all
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14:43:21 *H4ns* is not sure.  last time, he chose javascript instead because scheme was so fugly
14:43:37 <maxm> stassats: just forget it
14:44:13 <loke> Scheme is like a javascript that tried to pretend it's Lisp :-)
14:44:17 <Denommus> H4ns: Javascript is still too damn slow as a embeddable scripting language for mobile, AFAIK
14:44:30 <H4ns> Denommus: you don't know much then.
14:44:53 <Denommus> well, I suggested JS and QML for my boss before suggesting Lisp
14:45:06 <H4ns> Denommus: and he said "too slow" without having a clue.
14:45:14 <H4ns> Denommus: :D
14:45:48 <Denommus> H4ns: I trusted him, since he worked on the meego successor before Nokia abandoned it
14:46:09 <Denommus> on meego JS is not just nice, it's great. I think the problem is on JS on Android
14:46:19 <Denommus> but, again, I'm trusting what he said
14:46:37 <H4ns> Denommus: v8 runs very well on android, and it is by no means slow.
14:46:48 <H4ns> Denommus: but anyway, good that you have a lisp job now :)
14:48:24 <Denommus> thanks :)
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14:48:58 <pnpuff> I've defined S as (defun S (f g x) ((lambda (f g x) (funcall (funcall f x) (funcall g x))) f g x)) and K as (defun K(f &optional g) (lambda (g) (declare (ignore(g))) f)) so that one-step reduction: (equal (S #'k #'k 'x) (funcall (funcall #'k 'x)(funcall #'k 'x))) is verified. Thanks for the help.
14:49:39 <Denommus> what I disliked the most on Scheme was how optional parameters work. It's like I had only &rest keyword on CL
14:50:35 <pkhuong> Denommus: use the implementation, not the standard. Many implementations have support for more complex argument lists.
14:50:50 <Denommus> on the other hand, having case sensitivity is nice
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14:51:22 <sykopomp> Denommus: lisp is case-sensitive :>
14:51:44 *sykopomp* only finds it useful for interop, anyway.
14:51:50 <Denommus> sykopomp: I know it is, but it's in a non-obvious way
14:52:03 <Denommus> sykopomp: interop is the point, in my case ;)
14:52:21 <pnpuff> what do you mean with "non-obvious way"?
14:52:23 -!- hlavaty`` [~user@friedrichstrasse.knowledgetools.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
14:52:36 <pnpuff> what is "obvious"?
14:52:57 <sykopomp> pnpuff: the reader upcases by default, although it turns out that CL symbols are in fact case-sensitive.
14:53:00 <Denommus> pnpuff: if you define a symbol, it will be evaluated as ALL CAPS. Only if you escape the characters it will be sensitive
14:53:48 <sykopomp> (eq (intern "foo") (read-from-string "foo")) => NIL
14:56:02 <Denommus> H4ns: why did you tell me about mocl? Now I'm anxyous :D
14:56:48 <H4ns> Denommus: because it is probably the best option for a cl on phones, unless you plan to spend considerable time getting your infrastructure to work
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14:57:30 <Denommus> H4ns: I don't. I knew about mocl before, it's just that I didn't know it will be out later today
14:57:51 <H4ns> well, then it will be a short wait
14:58:21 <H4ns> you already have the android developer kit and ndk?  if no, maybe play around with that in the mean time :)
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14:58:50 <Denommus> H4ns: I do
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14:59:11 <stassats> phones are a fad, don't worry
14:59:24 <H4ns> i'm very curious about the pricing of mocl, actually
15:00:02 <Denommus> even if my bosses don't agree on paying for it, I think I'll pay for a personal license myself
15:00:43 <Denommus> the project is already more or less mature, I was working on it with pure C++. While it's not completely ported to Android (because I'm working on the game, my boss is the one who made the engine), it's already working quite well on Linux
15:01:31 <Denommus> so... yeah, he and I are knowing about the NDK
15:02:15 <antonv_> not today, tomorrow
15:02:21 <antonv_> mocl arriving
15:02:29 <Denommus> did I calculate wrongly?
15:02:35 <antonv_> 27 hours
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15:02:40 <ehu`> antonv_: hi. thanks for the tests.
15:02:52 <antonv_> ehu`: hi, you are welcome
15:03:05 <ehu`> antonv_: fixing the regressions (crash in metatilities) now.
15:03:18 <Denommus> antonv_: are you sure it isn't 2.7 hours?
15:03:49 <H4ns> 97777 seconds
15:03:51 <antonv_> ehu`: good
15:03:57 <Denommus> (/ 10000 3600)
15:04:00 <antonv_> (/ 97901 60.0 60.0) == 27.19
15:04:03 <stassats> no, 97755
15:04:49 <Denommus> antonv_: no, it's 2.7
15:04:58 <stassats> slime says Universal-time: "2013-06-23T22:13:20+04:00"
15:05:04 <Denommus> oh...
15:05:06 <stassats> that's, like, tomorrow
15:05:08 <Denommus> I'm wrong
15:05:09 <Denommus> sorry
15:05:20 <Denommus> I was forgeting a 0
15:05:41 <antonv_> so mocl will be not free?
15:05:51 <H4ns> antonv_: as far as i understand, no
15:06:00 <stassats> so much hype, it can't be free
15:06:10 <Denommus> antonv_: I'm betting it won't. H4ns is, too.
15:06:17 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@78.96.108.142] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:06:21 <Denommus> antonv_: like Xamarin is for mono
15:07:24 <ehu`> given enough hype, chances are someone can make a living off of it
15:07:56 <H4ns> i think a new commercial lisp implementation would be pretty exciting.
15:08:23 <Denommus> it is. Maybe this heats the language
15:09:05 *stassats* is not that excited, just another implementations to find bugs in
15:09:06 <antonv_> I am a bit reluctant to the idea of paying
15:10:17 <antonv_> unless the price is negligible
15:10:45 <Denommus> antonv_: well, it's a new market. Google and Apple made a "wonderful" job of locking their platforms in a single language, each. So whe somebody manages to put another language that works on both of them, he is expecting payment
15:10:48 <Denommus> like... Xamarin
15:11:15 <Denommus> s/whe/when/
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15:12:11 <antonv_> it would be good to connect slime to the phone
15:13:02 <Denommus> indeed. I think people still didn't do that because they didn't even made CL work stably on the phone
15:13:09 <stassats> i did connect slime to ccl on android, and ran quicklisp on it
15:13:10 <antonv_> CCL also runs on phones as far as I remember
15:13:23 <Denommus> Clojure's nrepl already works directly on the phone
15:13:28 <ehu`> stassats: did it require a lot of patience?
15:13:46 <stassats> ehu`: not really, it was quite smooth
15:13:51 <H4ns> antonv_: it is one story to run a compiler on a phone, and another to have a language that can be used to create applications with.
15:14:16 <Denommus> antonv_: if you want to do an app on CCL, you'll have to resort directly to OpenGL ES. If mocl wants to succeed, they must have an app development API
15:14:17 slyrus [~chatzilla@107.200.11.156] has joined #lisp
15:14:23 <antonv_> H4ns: do you mean cross compilation or what?
15:14:25 <stassats> i tried to make a java application which would start up ccl and slime automatically, and not require to be rooted, but i run out of patience with java
15:14:26 <H4ns> antonv_: if all you need is write some socket client or server, ecl or ccl will probably be just fine.
15:14:32 <stassats> so i only ran it from the adb shell
15:14:58 <H4ns> antonv_: as soon as you need integration into the phone specific APIs, though, you need some infrastructure that allows you to do that.
15:15:05 <antonv_> H4ns: or you mean UI libraries/ bindings
15:15:06 <H4ns> antonv_: mocl provides just that.
15:15:13 <stassats> i also ran hunchentoot on it
15:15:15 <antonv_> ah
15:15:17 <stassats> there's your UI!
15:15:20 <H4ns> antonv_: platform libraries, not just ui
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15:15:55 <Denommus> stassats: have you tried it with Clojure or Kawa Scheme?
15:16:07 <stassats> do i look like i would use clojure?
15:16:25 <H4ns> stassats: you're the smuggest in this room!
15:16:30 <Denommus> stassats: it's certainly better than Java
15:16:52 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit [Quit: normanrichards]
15:16:53 <lmj`> If package FOO does not exist, should (read-from-string "foo:bar") be a reader-error, a package-error, or both (deriving from both)? I suppose the answer is 'any'. CCL: package-error, SBCL: both, ACL: reader-error, LispWorks: package-error.
15:16:55 <stassats> Denommus: what isn't?
15:17:02 <Denommus> I just hate )])))]]}}})))
15:17:09 <Denommus> stassats: PHP
15:17:29 <lmj`> Since ACL does not signal package-error (or both), getting the package name requires parsing the report string.
15:17:45 <lmj`> Seems buggish, even if conforming.
15:18:23 <loke> lmj`: Getting package-error for a nonexisting package sounds a bit weird.
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15:19:46 <lmj`> loke: That piece of information is useful, though.
15:19:47 <antonv_> lmj`: maybe it should just signall cl:error?
15:19:50 <Denommus> stassats: but anyway, there is Kawa Scheme, it seems better for android development than Clojure
15:20:01 <loke> lmj`: of course
15:20:14 <antonv_> Denommus: why better?
15:20:37 <Denommus> antonv_: it doesn't have some problems of Clojure for Android, like the huge loading time
15:20:48 <loke> lmj`: The hyperspec for INTERN doesn't mention what happens if the package doesn't exist though
15:20:55 <stassats> Denommus: as i said, developing for phones is a fad, i'm waiting it to blow over
15:20:56 <loke> The spec is underspecified, it seems.
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15:21:17 <Denommus> stassats: I'm living off it, so I don't care if it's a fad
15:21:25 <loke> stassats: I see. Yu're holding out in order to write applications for Google Glass, yes?
15:21:43 <antonv_> :)
15:22:00 <stassats> nope, google retina
15:22:12 <loke> stassats: Of course. Silly me.
15:22:13 <Denommus> stassats: if it is, the company where I work will turn its attention completely to gamedev, so I'm backed up if it's a fad. But for now, I have work to do :)
15:22:49 <lmj`> In general, what conditions are signaled where seems underspecified. Like (with-output-to-string (s) (close s) (print "foo" s)) not signaling a stream error on ccl. Still technically conforming, I guess, but a hassle.
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15:23:17 <loke> lmj`: I definitely agree
15:23:54 <lmj`> Sure we can litter everything with open-stream-p, but, you know.
15:24:23 <lmj`> Proper approach is a wrapper, of course.
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15:28:25 <antonv_> ehu`: what is the status of ABCL on android? I don't remember, have anyone tried it?
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15:29:28 <loke> antonv_: There are issues with it. ABCL needs to load new classes on the fly, which the Android VM can't do
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15:29:51 <loke> antonv_: ABCL for Android would need a DEX code generator instead of standard Java VM
15:30:09 <ehu`> antonv_: easye created a patch which will make ABCL run only interpreted code.
15:30:23 <ehu`> antonv_: with that patch, ABCL seems to run on android.
15:30:32 <ehu`> Haven't done so myself (yet)
15:31:11 <H4ns> i kind of fear that it would be too slow anyway
15:31:16 <H4ns> but that's just me.
15:31:37 <antonv_> I think startup time might be an issue
15:31:37 <Denommus> it probably would
15:32:03 <antonv_> but Android apps rarely perform heavy calculations
15:32:11 <antonv_> you just react to onclick events
15:32:18 <antonv_> and call platform API
15:32:24 <Denommus> I think I found the problem with the ecl-android compilation. Let's see if I manage to compile it, now
15:32:34 <antonv_> so no heavy requirements on performance
15:32:49 <Denommus> since I can't work tomorrow, and I want to deliver this ready by monday, I don't think I can wait for mocl
15:33:00 <ehu`> antonv_: *except* for startup performance
15:33:52 <Denommus> antonv_: they do perform heavy calculations sometimes, but then there's async tasks for that
15:33:57 <antonv_> ehu`: yes, long startup time is inconvenient
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15:40:00 <pnpuff> Someone here working on TLCA List of Open Problems?
15:40:57 <Denommus> not me
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15:42:15 <Denommus> I'm not that smart
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15:45:55 <loke> (ql:quickload "cl-gss")
15:46:03 <loke> oops
15:46:05 <loke> wrong window
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15:48:13 <nmeum> how do I get the first character of a string?
15:48:33 <stassats> (char string 0)
15:49:03 <nmeum> thanks
15:49:32 <stassats> (and (array-in-bounds-p string 0) (char string 0)) to make sure it's not an empty string
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16:37:17 <Denommus> oh, finally
16:37:22 <Denommus> ECL for android is compiling
16:37:33 <Denommus> but will it run on iOS? XD
16:37:43 <Denommus> (it will, I'm just kidding)
16:38:33 <ryankarason> NIL
16:40:28 <pnpuff> :)
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17:09:12 <moore33> Denommus: I presume that ECL doesn't try to compile while on Android?
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17:14:05 <rk[asdf]> :)
17:14:14 <rk[asdf]> what is going on in the lisp world today?
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17:24:47 <ehu`> rk[asdf]: today's rather quiet.
17:25:48 <Ralt> hi
17:25:54 <Ralt> I have a bunch of strings, and a bunch of functions I want to call depending on which string I get
17:26:32 <stassats> (funcall (cdr (assoc '(("string" . function)) :test #'equal)))
17:26:47 <Ralt> heh.
17:26:56 <stassats> plus the string argument
17:27:00 <Ralt> I tried using some case and found out the mess it was...
17:27:12 <Ralt> the string argument?
17:27:17 <stassats> to assoc
17:27:23 <stassats> (assoc string '(("string" . function)) :test #'equal)
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17:29:31 <Ralt> so in a loop
17:29:44 <rk[asdf]> ehu`: i see that:P
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17:30:49 <stassats> rk[asdf]: everybody is busy hacking in lisp, of course
17:30:54 <rk[asdf]> :)
17:30:57 <rk[asdf]> that is what i am doing:)
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17:31:18 <rk[asdf]> fine tuning a logging-bot
17:31:49 <Ralt> hm
17:31:54 <Ralt> the thing is, I need a default case
17:32:03 <Ralt> string-case looks like the perfect match
17:32:44 <rk[asdf]> Ralt: why not make a function (cond ((equal "str1") fun1) ((equal "str2") fun2) (t fun3))
17:32:58 <stassats> rk[asdf]: why make it?
17:33:02 <Ralt> didn't think of that...
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17:33:07 <rk[asdf]> stassats: i guess i didn't know about string-case
17:33:21 <rk[asdf]> i take often take the brute approach
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17:33:26 <rk[asdf]> i think in lisp 1.5 :/
17:33:37 <rk[asdf]> still learning all of the fancy and amazing CL functions
17:33:47 <stassats> default case (funcall (or (cdr (assoc string '(("string" . function)) :test #'equal)) (lambda () "default-case")))
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18:09:18 <ripplebit> guys where can i get a lisp interpreter on linux?
18:09:52 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
18:10:14 <Bike> sbcl.org?
18:10:58 <ripplebit> thanks
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18:13:32 <stassats> beware, it's mostly a compiler
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18:26:33 <ripplebit> guys how do i install scheme on linux?
18:26:45 <Bike> you ask in #scheme
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19:22:13 <Ralt> hm
19:22:15 <Ralt> I'm unhappy with this: https://github.com/Ralt/mdtransform/blob/master/src/lexer.lisp#L13
19:24:18 <Ralt> stassats: although your way would work, it still feels... ugly
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19:27:43 <stassats> Ralt: what about http://paste.lisp.org/display/137716 ?
19:29:07 <Ralt> stassats: I like that
19:34:21 <stassats> Ralt: http://paste.lisp.org/display/137716#1
19:35:08 <Ralt> heh
19:35:16 <Ralt> I started doing something similar
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19:36:35 <stassats> it's only one char, and ASCII, you can use an array
19:37:04 <stassats> if it's not ASCII, an eql-hashtable, if it's not one char, an equal-ht
19:37:11 -!- Watcher7 is now known as Watcher7|off
19:38:08 <Ralt> your current solution looks fine?
19:38:35 <stassats> that's if you want to make it faster
19:38:39 <Ralt> oh
19:39:14 <stassats> one character through an array is the fastest
19:41:09 <n2kraWork> If any LispM ers here, I found nevermore on archive.org
19:41:23 <n2kraWork> http://web.archive.org/web/20070404011123/http://www.dridus.com/~nyef/lispm/nevermore/
19:42:34 <stassats> n2kraWork: http://www.lisphacker.com/projects/nevermore/ ?
19:43:50 <n2kraWork> I've been looking at some Explorer disasmmbly, to maybe patch the 8M (2MW) mem board to 12M (3MW) (16 max NuBus minus the ROM)
19:45:07 <stassats> hacking on lispms is depressing, there's so many things to do on current lisp systems which are actually used by people
19:45:56 <n2kraWork> archive goes to 9f1128
19:49:31 <p_nathan> I wouldn 't mind taking a few hours one weekend and trying to grub up useful packages from lispM code and getting it packaged & running for modern CL
19:50:11 <stassats> a few hours one weekend?
19:50:35 *p_nathan* shrugs. maybe more. lots to do out there.
19:50:45 <n2kraWork> or save the CMU ai archive from bit rot
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20:14:42 <fe[nl]ix> p_nathan: I once tried to do that with the K-Machine code but there wasn't much useful stuff
20:16:14 *Xach* sometimes wishes to see the implementation of Statice
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20:39:37 <ruediger> hi
20:41:58 -!- macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-199-47.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
20:43:22 <ruediger> does anybody here have an archive of dan weinreb's blog?  I'm looking for an article he wrote about Emacs history about 2007/8.  I couldn't find it with the wayback machine and his website is gone.
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20:47:36 <sykopomp> ruediger: http://web.archive.org/web/20121107150708/http://danweinreb.org/blog/rebuttal-to-stallmans-story-about-the-formation-of-symbolics-and-lmi this one?
20:47:57 <sykopomp> sorry I guess this is more lisp machine stuff :)
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20:48:46 <ruediger> sykopomp: ah thanks!
20:49:14 <sykopomp> I don't know if that's the one you meant, unfortunately, but I'm having moderate success browsing the archive for his blog.
20:49:35 <ruediger> "And while Im setting the record straight, the original (TECO-based) Emacs was created and designed by Guy L. Steele Jr. and David Moon. After they had it working, and it had become established as the standard text editor at the AI lab, Stallman took over its maintenance."
20:49:43 <ruediger> that's what I meant
20:50:04 <ruediger> sykopomp: yes, it worked for me now.  But before that it started redirecting me to the original website which is now gone
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22:52:37 <hitecnologys> How do I list all methods for some generic function?
22:52:55 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.97.10] has quit [Read error: No route to host]
22:53:09 <Bike> (mop:generic-function-methods gf)
22:53:50 <hitecnologys> I don't have such package.
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22:57:05 <hitecnologys> What am I missing?
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22:57:46 <Quadrescence> hitecnologys, what lisp are you using?
22:57:52 <Quadrescence> (ql:quickload :closer-mop)
22:58:00 <Quadrescence> (closer-mop:generic-function-methods gf)
22:58:17 <hitecnologys> Quadrescence: I'm using sbcl
22:58:33 <pjb> Quadrescence: closer-mop is a portability package: it works everywhere! (almost).
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22:58:45 <Quadrescence> pjb, yes that is why i suggested it after
22:58:47 <pjb> s/Quadrescence/hitecnologys /
22:58:53 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
22:58:58 <pjb> :-)
22:59:07 <hitecnologys> Ah, much better. Now it works, thanks a lot.
23:00:19 <hitecnologys> I'm just trying to solve The Mistery of Missing ASDF Test-op.
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23:01:02 <hitecnologys> Actually, symbol is there of course, but my specific method for my system is not.
23:01:07 <hitecnologys> Weird.
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23:02:27 <hitecnologys> How do ASDF defines where it sould find system? Can I somehow force it to search for system in specific file or I should load this file first?
23:03:05 <hitecnologys> I didn't find that in docs, they seem kinda incomplete. Or I just read the wrong docs. =P
23:06:13 <pjb> asdf:*central-registry*
23:06:32 <pjb> plus some other more modern ways, described in the manual.
23:06:37 <pjb> google for asdf manual
23:06:57 <hitecnologys> This one is right? http://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf/
23:07:12 <pjb> Yes.
23:07:32 <pjb> Check chapter 7.
23:08:08 <hitecnologys> Ok, I probably need to read it all to become pro or something. Thanks.
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23:15:10 <hitecnologys> Good night everyone!
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23:52:55 <Blkt> fe[nl]ix: ping
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07:32:59 -!- names: sad0ur yrk drmeister Nisstyre Tristam antgreen flip214 Teratogen macrobat Lefeni zeroish nialo- skalawag tensorpudding McMAGIC--Copy axion adnap DrCode srikumar Vutral harish smull Cymew nicdev dlowe ferada othar robot-beethoven dented42 sauerkrause karswell fe[nl]ix joshe spearalot naeg gko loke em kanru Mandus jagaj sellout- z0d Myk267 s00pcan ckoch786 ianmcorvidae walter|r ckoch786_ johnzorn Kabaka jasom j0ni strobegen hpd dRbiG vsync Gr1zzly Neptu aoh
07:32:59 -!- names: Anarch wchun pjb daimrod otwieracz joneshf-work cdidd oconnore cmatei lemoinem lusory_ ramus balle_ aeth sid_cypher BlastHardcheese bejer mathrick weie_ s0ber dmiles_afk The_third_man devoutful06 davorb-cellphone sbryant daem0n _8hzp Blkt EvW Harag cpt_nemo guaqua |3b| antifuchs drdo tycho expez tvaalen fds arkx quackv5_ rabite davorb_ luis ivan4th edgar-rft Posterdati araujo ahungry ozzloy tali713 aajmakin ec_ brighid GuilOooo_ iig00cz gendl BeLucid_
07:32:59 -!- names: eichelbart_ hugod rvchangue Tordek CrazyEddy sirdancealot ckoch_ asedeno sykopomp new krrrcks_ Wukix` cYmen_ Praise namtsui rk[zzz] newcup AriaMK Krystof thaum mcsontos yano Modius _veer ered Natch froggey ether0 AntiSpamMeta nightshade427 MoALTz maxm cods MrWoohoo stokachu Fade j_king __main__ stopbit Aste123 varjag jaimef nmeum gabot [SLB] net4all felideon dsp_ prip_ TristamWrk clog Tarential xristos copec ivan\ freiksenet danlentz dfox isomorphismes
07:32:59 -!- names: entitativity Tribal dim gemelen __class__ Odin- pkhuong fmu Yamazaki-kun bege nuba zbigniew justinmcp_ Borbus gf3 n0vember aerique samebchase SquidTamer mikaelj ivan housel banjiewen oGMo jdz spacebat lkjh jhj ZombieChicken wyan scharan bobbysmith007 Patzy schoppenhauer ggherdov H4ns rotty madnificent jdoles pchrist joast p_l tkd cross galdor tessier Khisanth fsmunoz JPeterson johanbev mal___ pr kbtr eak Jubb Jabberwockey ve dan64 foom quasisane
07:32:59 -!- names: redline6561 reb zmyrgel adeht jsnell Xach igorw cibs acieroid hypno SHODAN brucem ``Erik ft epsylon minion specbot eli seantallen DrForr deliciousrobots _schulte_ clop ski sfa phadthai cmbntr theBlackDragon Adeon Amadiro Subfusc sytse nitefli ineiros sshirokov pok Ralt nitro_idiot_ joachifm_ peccu1 mtd_ yroeht Zhivago gensym tomaw djinni` rpgsimmaster_ jayne johs surrounder Foxboron KingNato_ callen yeltzooo anaumov Watcher7|off vhost- photex
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07:53:53 <zorkmoid> ;Good morning.
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07:55:51 <zorkmoid> I was thinking of a CL book today ...
07:56:59 <zorkmoid> Something about best practises ... or common idioms or something to that extent.
07:57:00 <hajovonta> what book?
07:57:32 <H4ns> zorkmoid: and in it, you'll advocate get? :D
07:57:42 <zorkmoid> hajovonta: a new one.
07:57:47 <zorkmoid> H4ns: haha :-)
07:58:15 <zorkmoid> H4ns: i might not go that far!
07:58:26 <H4ns> zorkmoid: thank you!
07:59:17 <zorkmoid> i think there was such a project once ...
07:59:22 <zorkmoid> cl recipie book?
07:59:33 <H4ns> zorkmoid: well, the real issue with such a book that the "common" in common lisp is as much as commonality in cl programmer's style goes.
07:59:39 <H4ns> zorkmoid: there is the cl cookbook
08:00:09 <zorkmoid> H4ns: i realise that, hence something not "this is hwo you must do it", but "here are some ways of doing thingie"
08:00:20 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp
08:00:30 <hajovonta> cookbook needs to be updated on a few pages
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08:00:44 <zorkmoid> maybe the cookbook could be used
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08:04:31 <zorkmoid> maybe put the cl+book on gittube or something
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08:07:04 <zorkmoid> anyway, just an idea..
08:07:10 <zorkmoid> now to solve hard problems ...
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11:33:42 <hajovonta> hitecnologys: are you here?
11:34:02 <hitecnologys> hajovonta: yep
11:34:32 <hitecnologys> hajovonta: I've set up everything
11:34:51 <hajovonta> hitecnologys: sorry for not showing up. i had some family issues.
11:35:41 <hitecnologys> hajovonta: np, I woke up about an hour ago.
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12:41:16 <zorkmoid> is anyone using foot pedals here?
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12:41:53 <jagaj> zorkmoid: I tried it for a while
12:42:45 <zorkmoid> jagaj: what was your conclusion?
12:43:21 <jagaj> zorkmoid: to be clear, I assume you're talking about this in context of using them for modifier keys to supplement something like emacs, yes?
12:43:31 <zorkmoid> jagaj: yes
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12:45:14 <jagaj> zorkmoid: I found it difficult to maintain typing speed that I'm used to. It wasn't a matter of learning it I think, given I've learned qwerty, colemak, dvorak programmers and hangul typing very quickly and profiently... and I was a professional metal drummer for 8 years (i.e. my legs are nimble and quick)
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12:45:39 <zorkmoid> jagaj: mm..
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12:46:22 <zorkmoid> jagaj: ever though about using them for navigation?
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12:46:34 <zorkmoid> like binding a pedal to M-tab or something ...
12:46:36 <jagaj> zorkmoid: since then I've adapted to using the key-chord package. I also use caps as ctrl and meta is tab
12:46:45 <jagaj> tab is caps-tab
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12:47:40 <jagaj> zorkmoid: it was just too slow. the distance you push the pedals simply makes it take longer than pressing a key no matter what. It also forces you to maintain a very similar posture all day, and that's worse for you than whatever finger acrobatics you may be trying to avoid
12:47:53 <zorkmoid> mm... true that
12:48:23 <jagaj> I don't know your OS, but I'm on os x and use keyremap4macbook to remap keys (it works on any os x install)
12:48:24 <zorkmoid> I was kinda think that either modifiers, or using two pedals to move between windows quickly in emacs
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12:48:54 <jagaj> that's where key-chords come into play for me. I have quite a few of them bound to simple things
12:49:00 <zorkmoid> which has always been my pet peeve ... it is so tiresome to press C-x 5 o ..
12:49:13 <zorkmoid> jagaj: link?
12:49:13 <jagaj> and I have a keyboard with n-key rollover (filco majestouch II blue) so it works well
12:49:30 <jagaj> http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/key-chord.el
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12:50:01 <zorkmoid> thanks
12:50:18 <zorkmoid> at home i just have one of those small mac keyboards
12:50:22 <jagaj> so on my colemak keyboard I have lots of chords setup like zx, zc,zv, zb,zk, q_, etc..
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12:50:37 <jagaj> things that aren't easy to accidentally press, but are very easy to press intentionally
12:51:01 <zorkmoid> nod
12:51:15 <jagaj> I'd love it you could map ESC to a chord, but afaik you can't :(
12:51:20 <jagaj> that'd be awesome
12:51:46 <zorkmoid> i think i will play a bit withthis ...
12:51:56 <zorkmoid> things like 50 and 5o would make sense ... 4o 40 ...
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12:52:43 <jagaj> I'd advise against that on a qwerty keyboard, you can trigger a chord by simply typing 2 keys quickly
12:53:09 <jagaj> so typing 50 will probably trigger a 5-0 chord, and typing 5o accidentally when you want 50 is easy on qwerty
12:53:48 <zorkmoid> mmmm... true that
12:54:09 <zorkmoid> at least the first part, can't see how typing 5o would be accidental for 50 :-)
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12:54:37 <jagaj> 0 and o are right next to each other?
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12:55:24 <zorkmoid> two different rows ...
12:55:30 <Zhivago> I'd like to get one of those wire glove keyboards.
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12:55:32 <zorkmoid> can't see how you woudl ever mistype that ..
12:56:00 <zorkmoid> maybe setting the delay to something small would solve it
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12:56:10 <jagaj> Zhivago: a chording version, or the virtual keyboard type?
12:56:27 <jagaj> I have a few chording keyboards, a couple of which are glove-based
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12:57:07 <Zhivago> I'm not a big fan of chording, so the latter, preferentially.
12:57:50 <jagaj> I would miss the tactile response of a real keyboard personally
12:57:58 <zorkmoid> mm..
12:58:32 <jagaj> most of my mistypes I recognize by touch, rather than by sight... being forced to proofread everything by sight would be tiresome IMO
12:58:46 <Zhivago> http://windowsphonethoughts.com/news/show/64148/kitty-gets-its-claws-into-the-virtual-keyboard-game.html -- Here's a sexy picture.
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12:59:18 <zorkmoid> jagaj: i think if one sets the delay to 0.01 then stuff like 40 will be safe
12:59:51 <jagaj> zorkmoid: it already uses a delay that Iirc is longer than that, and it's still easy to mis-trigger chords
13:00:16 <jagaj> that's why I (and the author for that matter) suggest using keys that aren't sequenced commonly, or close to each other
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13:00:29 <jagaj> qu would be bad, qk would be great
13:00:41 <zorkmoid> mm..
13:01:06 <jagaj> doing something like F-0 for a chord would probably work much better than 50
13:01:15 <jagaj> and have a similar mnemonic idea
13:01:56 <zorkmoid> mm...
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13:02:39 <zorkmoid> actually, i think one pedal for Alt-tab would be good enough
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13:08:28 <monokai> Which free implementation of CL should I pick?  I want to learn Lisp, but also immediately start building something real.
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13:08:45 <H4ns> monokai: what is "real" to you?
13:09:13 <monokai> H4ns, a useful application. Didn't decide what that would be yet.
13:09:47 <|3b|> any of sbcl,ccl,clisp,ecl,abcl should be OK, depending on specifics of what you need
13:09:47 <H4ns> monokai: if you'd be more specific about what that would be, it'd be easier to make a suggestion
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13:09:49 <zorkmoid> monokai: any will normally do.
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13:10:01 <H4ns> monokai: in general, sbcl and clozure cl are most popular here.
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13:10:36 <H4ns> monokai: if you want to embed your stuff in a c program, ecl may be what you want.  for easy java interop, use abcl.
13:10:43 <monokai> H4ns, guess it depends what the environment allows for. Personally, I'd probably prefer some web app backend (i.e. server) stuff.
13:11:15 <H4ns> monokai: all these implementations support usocket and thus allow you to use an embedded web server (hunchentoot is most popular)
13:11:18 <monokai> No, no Java or C++. It has to stand on its own.
13:11:19 <|3b|> most free implementations support the same sorts of extensions, and most of us use them through portability layers anyway
13:12:00 <zorkmoid> monokai: stand on its own?
13:12:37 <zorkmoid> just pick one really... unless you know exactly what you are looking for it doesn't matter.
13:12:40 <monokai> zorkmoid, no java interop or embedding in a C program
13:13:30 <|3b|> if you don't want to run on JVM (with or without talking to other java code) you probably don't want ABCL
13:14:23 <monokai> so how would you compare SBCL vs Clozure ?
13:14:33 <monokai> (and isn't Clozure somehow related to Clojure? ;))
13:14:40 <|3b|> sbcl generally produces faster code, but takes longer to compile it
13:14:46 <H4ns> monokai: clozure has interface code to objective c library on osx
13:14:52 <|3b|> clozure and clojure are unrelated beyond similar names
13:14:53 <H4ns> libraries
13:14:55 <hajovonta> you get common lisp with both. try sbcl.
13:15:13 <monokai> H4ns, so Clozure is for Macs?
13:15:30 <H4ns> monokai: it runs very well on linux and freebsd, also on raspberry pi
13:15:43 <H4ns> monokai: but the objective c bridge is most useful on osx, yes.
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13:16:14 <|3b|> for best results, make you code run on both, and pick whichever works best for specific usage
13:16:29 <p_l> monokai: Clozure was "born" on Macs (with long history), so I'd rate it as having best OSX support, but runs well on Windows and Linux
13:17:02 <p_l> *might* (not sure) have better support for PPC in general than SBCL
13:17:05 <hajovonta> monokai: what is your platform? linux?
13:17:06 <monokai> H4ns, speaking of libraries, does any one of the two lean more to some specific application / domain?
13:17:14 <H4ns> monokai: no
13:17:44 <monokai> hajovonta, prefer Linux, can be Windows.  (BTW, I'm no Linux hacker - I've picked Ubuntu, because it's easy to use. ;)
13:18:42 <zorkmoid> unless you really know exactly what your use case is (say, osx program then ccl, embedded stuff, ecl, ...) it really doesn't matter which implementation you pick as long as it is mostly conformant with the spec
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13:19:05 <zorkmoid> and even then it generally doesn't matter ..
13:19:14 <monokai> OK, so I'll google the two and try to take a shot at one... Probably whichever has a prettier website... ;)
13:20:11 <zorkmoid> good choice.
13:20:11 <hajovonta> in my (little) experience in CL world pretty websites are not a concern
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13:20:28 <dim> I remember being more comfortable with CCL (that's Clozure) when I started, and nowadays I lean to only use SBCL because that's what I use on the "servers" (where it's debian, and there's no CCL package already included in debian)
13:20:33 <hajovonta> you must be happy if something has a website at all.
13:20:43 <hajovonta> and if it's up to date.
13:21:42 <dim> that said programming a "web" application with common lisp is a great use case for the language and its libs, easy and fun to do
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13:22:25 *dim* has done several of those already, the latest soon to be more visible, as being yet another blog engine
13:22:40 <zorkmoid> nice
13:23:30 <dim> well, I don't know, I didn't really want to spend time on yet another blog engine, but it seems that for my constraints and goals I had to
13:24:10 <zorkmoid> i think there should be a standard #lisp answer for "which cl do i use if i have never used lisp" ... :-)
13:24:17 <monokai> ok, let's push the bar a little higher:  which one has better (if at all) WebSocket support?  ;)
13:24:32 <H4ns> monokai: neither do
13:24:33 <dim> isn't that a lib question?
13:24:50 <hajovonta> there is websocket support for hunchentoot which is a webserver for CL and runs in both sbcl and ccl.
13:24:56 <monokai> dim, yes, but aren't libs CL-implementation-specific?
13:24:59 <H4ns> hunchensocket is dead.
13:25:06 <dim> http://cliki.net/site/search?query=websocket
13:25:11 <|3b|> not good libs
13:25:12 <H4ns> there is https://github.com/3b/clws
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13:25:29 <|3b|> clws should run wherever iolib runs, which is at least sbcl and ccl
13:25:41 <pkhuong> monokai: no. that's the point of having a useful standard, and portability libraries for common extensions (e.g. sockets).
13:25:55 <dim> oh, damn, I just read "hunchentoot is dead"
13:26:01 <monokai> zorkmoid, agreed :)
13:26:21 <monokai> pkhuong, OK, got it
13:26:34 <zorkmoid> monokai: what do you want to write? when it comes to most things in CL, it is a matter of libs ... and some portable layer.
13:27:14 <monokai> zorkmoid, but if libs can be used on both CCL and SBCL, what's the difference?
13:27:56 <hajovonta> monokai: nothing for a beginner. and you can easily switch later if you change your mind.
13:28:11 <hajovonta> it's just a matter of minutes.
13:28:25 <zorkmoid> yup
13:28:25 <jagaj> matter of seconds if you're learning probably
13:28:35 <zorkmoid> "doesn't matter" :-)
13:28:44 *jtza8* notes that both CCL and SBCL are good lisps to start with.
13:28:46 <dim> monokai: yeah, pick any one, really. CCL was more friendly to me for debugging code at the beginning, I would tend to prefer that for starting.
13:28:47 <jagaj> takes a bit of code before 'minutes' come into play
13:29:33 <hajovonta> dim: sbcl gives a ton of info, too... compiler warnings etc.
13:29:49 <dim> well I've been beaten by the byte function when switching from CCL to SBCL because I didn't understand its documentation and used it the way it's implemented in CCL, so managed to depend on CCL for that...
13:30:31 <dim> hajovonta: the interactive debugger in CCL contains more information by default, and I'm not yet sure how to recompile my code with (debug 3) in SBCL to this day, see
13:30:57 <hajovonta> dim: i see
13:31:03 <zorkmoid> cmucl has nice debugging too
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13:32:06 <pkhuong> dim: <http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Compiler-Policy>, restrict-compiler-policy.
13:32:29 <dim> mmm, I though a declaim or a proclaim would do?
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13:34:05 <monokai> OK, and what dev env is best for a beginner that wants to get productive soon?  For my js/node programming I use Sublime (so no IDE). Should I stick to what I know, or get the "industry-standard" Eclipse bloat, or jump into the deep end with Emacs?
13:34:22 <dim> have you already been using Emacs before?
13:34:28 <|3b|> emacs + slime is 'industry standard' for CL
13:34:29 <jagaj> eclipse is industray standard for lisp?!?!
13:34:37 <monokai> dim, no, never used Emacs
13:34:39 <jagaj> my heart just sank that someone said that
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13:34:49 <|3b|> jagaj: 'industry' doesn't use lisp :p
13:34:54 <H4ns> dim: C-u C-c k will recompile the current buffer with full debugging
13:35:00 <H4ns> dim: that serves me well
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13:35:24 <jagaj> monokai: emacs is easy to learn and works extremely well for lisp, however there are CL setups for sublime
13:35:31 <dim> H4ns: that's great, thanks! then you C-c C-l to have it compiled as usual?
13:35:31 <monokai> Eclipse may not be "industry standard" for Lisp, but I've seen it recommended for newbies.
13:35:37 <zorkmoid> |3b|: it is a small industry, but it exists :-)
13:35:39 <jagaj> so if you like sublime, just look into that. I've seen a slime integration mode for it
13:35:49 <jagaj> but it does require emacs
13:35:51 <H4ns> dim: sorry, C-u C-c C-k it is.
13:36:00 *dim* doesn't generate .fasl files in the middle of its sources
13:36:06 <jagaj> and there was a plain repl + syntax + paredit like thing
13:36:10 <H4ns> dim: just C-c C-k to recompile with default (low-debug) settings.
13:36:38 <H4ns> monokai: if you're an experienced programmer, consider emacs and slime
13:36:40 <dim> ok
13:36:53 <H4ns> monokai: everything else will just give you a bad experience.
13:36:54 <dim> C-c C-k will produce a local .fasl file, right? mmm, let me try
13:37:28 <dim> ; /Users/dim/dev/tapoueh.org/lisp/muse.fasl written compilation finished in 0:00:00.079
13:37:29 <jagaj> you could try vim for CL if you are feeling exceptionally masochistic
13:37:31 <dim> indeed it does
13:37:32 <pkhuong> monokai: if you're not an experienced programmer, consider emacs and slime with all the graphical stuff (toolbars and menus) enabled.
13:37:32 <dim> ok
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13:37:57 <dim> H4ns: do you typically have a Makefile with a clean target or the equivalent cleaning facility in your asd file or something like that?
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13:38:15 <dim> I kind of like how quicklisp pushes all that stuff away and manages it for me...
13:38:18 <H4ns> dim: no.  i have *.*f*sl in my global gitignore
13:39:03 <dim> what if you want to rebuild the whole project for testing from scratch? you do have unit tests and some vagrant or suchlike things setup?
13:39:29 <H4ns> dim: then i load via asdf, ditching my ~/.cache/common-lisp/ beforehand
13:39:30 <monokai> OK, Emacs w/ full UI enabled it is then.
13:39:49 <H4ns> dim: in my binary builds, i have a custom fasl path that "make clean" can remove
13:39:51 <zorkmoid> dim: what! you rebuild everything :-)
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13:40:10 <dim> makes sense. I like that kind of things automated, and I like the ability in lisp to avoid completely Makefiles or non-lisp things
13:40:27 <dim> zorkmoid: to know that when I deploy the thing on the server it will actually start, you know...
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13:40:50 <zorkmoid> dim:ah, i usually work on the production machine
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13:42:08 <dim> well I try to avoid that, really, even if I can't resist to hot-patching production by attaching SLIME to the running process and doing some C-M-x or C-c C-l where I know I just changed things (and shipped with rsync, say)
13:43:31 <zorkmoid> dim: mm.. i usually have load files that i load.. and on the production (i.e. where i work) i just hot patch ...
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13:43:46 <zorkmoid> whats the point of an interactive environment if you can't hot patch!
13:44:20 <H4ns> ah right, let me pull out my c++ compiler
13:44:28 <H4ns> what i do is pointless
13:45:25 <monokai> Would it make sense to start with some interpreted (not compiled) CL implementation to shorten the learning feed-back loop?  Something equivalent to node.js or php.
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13:45:41 <H4ns> monokai: no.  all common lisps have a compiler
13:45:47 <zorkmoid> monokai: no
13:45:48 <|3b|> even compiled implementations are interactive
13:45:49 <monokai> ok
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13:45:52 <H4ns> monokai: you still get all the interactivity
13:46:03 <H4ns> monokai: (compilation happens on the fly)
13:46:10 <monokai> ah, ok
13:46:51 AlphaXero [AlphaXero@c-69-242-121-34.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
13:46:56 <AlphaXero> hello!
13:47:16 <AlphaXero> so I am just trying to get into lisp, and am working throucgh practical common lisp
13:47:17 fortitude [~mts@rrcs-24-97-165-124.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp
13:47:29 <Cymew>  
13:47:29 <Cymew> LLNL benelux SAFE SSL embassy Forte NWO brigand CISU dictionary e-bomb
13:47:29 <Cymew> Steve Case CDMA Armani mindwar
13:47:30 <monokai> haha, another newb ;)
13:47:32 <AlphaXero> but I encountered an issue with the book's code...
13:47:35 tensorpuddin [~tensorpud@108.87.20.106] has joined #lisp
13:47:45 <AlphaXero> (defvar *db* nil)
13:47:45 <AlphaXero> (defun make-cd (title artist rating ripped)
13:47:45 <AlphaXero>   (list :title title :artist artist :rating rating :ripped ripped)
13:47:45 <AlphaXero>   )
13:47:45 <AlphaXero> (defun add-record (cd)
13:47:45 <AlphaXero>   (push cd *db*)
13:47:45 <AlphaXero>   )
13:47:52 <H4ns> AlphaXero: don't paste code here
13:47:57 <H4ns> AlphaXero: use paste.lisp.org
13:48:06 <AlphaXero> well, its pretty short, but sorry
13:48:22 <AlphaXero> anyway, its giving me 'undeclared free variable *DB*'
13:48:43 <zorkmoid> AlphaXero: did you eval the defvar?
13:48:52 <hitecnologys> AlphaXero: it's impossible
13:49:06 <AlphaXero> http://pastebin.com/C6qWQNcR
13:49:11 <AlphaXero> therest eh code in pastebin
13:49:14 <AlphaXero> and thats ALL of the code
13:49:15 <hitecnologys> AlphaXero: are you sure that you evaluated defvar
13:49:19 <AlphaXero> whats eval?
13:49:25 <hitecnologys> s/defvar/defvar?/
13:49:32 <AlphaXero> huh?
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13:49:38 <hajovonta> monokai: I have prepackaged Emacs+SLIME+SBCL for Windows. tell me if you are interested
13:49:50 <AlphaXero> I am using lispbox for windows already
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13:50:17 <hitecnologys> AlphaXero: did you run (defvar *db* nil)?
13:50:24 <zorkmoid> AlphaXero: eval --- evaluate
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13:50:38 <AlphaXero> I suppose not?
13:50:46 <AlphaXero> all the code I have is in the pastebin link
13:50:55 <AlphaXero> I have not done anything other than that
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13:51:32 <hitecnologys> AlphaXero: you should point your cursor to defvar and press C-c C-c
13:51:53 <AlphaXero> unbound variable defvar
13:52:04 <AlphaXero> also, the code itself was compiled with C-c C-c
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13:52:33 <zorkmoid> AlphaXero: compilation produces a FASL (kinda object file) which can be loaded later
13:52:43 <zorkmoid> AlphaXero: it doesn't make your code load into your running REPL
13:52:49 <AlphaXero> what the shiz
13:52:57 <AlphaXero> for some reason, only add-record was being compiled
13:52:58 <zorkmoid> AlphaXero: hit C-c C-l
13:53:40 <AlphaXero> wjats that do?
13:54:37 <AlphaXero> one way or the other, now that the ocde is completely compiled, now it works
13:55:27 <zorkmoid> AlphaXero: C-c C-l loads the current file/buffer
13:56:26 <AlphaXero> what does that accomplish?
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13:58:12 <zorkmoid> AlphaXero: loads your code into your repl
14:00:15 <AlphaXero> oh
14:00:28 <AlphaXero> I have another question (not a problem)
14:00:33 <AlphaXero> in this line '(dolist (cd *db*)'
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14:01:12 <AlphaXero> is dolist taking each element pair of *db*, then putting it in cd, then execuring whatever other code its given
14:01:14 <AlphaXero> ?
14:01:25 -!- spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
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14:02:07 <dlowe> It's executing whatever code it's given for each element of *db*, with cd bound to each element
14:02:12 <dlowe> clhs dolist
14:02:12 <specbot> http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_dolist.htm
14:02:23 <AlphaXero> such that (dolist (cd (list :a 2 :b 5) (format t "~%"))))
14:02:30 <AlphaXero> would print out...
14:02:40 <AlphaXero> a 2 [newline] b 5?
14:03:27 <zorkmoid> no
14:03:40 <zorkmoid> it would print out 4 new lines
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14:03:47 <AlphaXero> so it would be...
14:03:49 <AlphaXero> a
14:03:49 <AlphaXero> 2
14:03:50 <AlphaXero> b
14:03:50 <AlphaXero> 5
14:03:54 <AlphaXero> ?
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14:04:18 <zorkmoid> no
14:04:27 <|3b|> (format t "~%") just prints a newline
14:04:27 <zorkmoid> four newlines, and please stop pasting so much here...
14:04:47 <AlphaXero> sorryu, that should have been (format t "~%" cd)
14:04:56 <hajovonta> and you can try it in the repl, so there is no point asking what the result will be
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14:05:16 <zorkmoid> AlphaXero: still four newlines, ~% prints a newline, nothing more.
14:05:26 <zorkmoid> indeed.
14:05:54 <AlphaXero> then clearly im misinterpreting the books incredibly cryptic format statment
14:06:11 <zorkmoid> what book?
14:06:26 <hajovonta> practical common lisp
14:06:29 <AlphaXero> Practical Common Lisp
14:06:53 <zorkmoid> chapter?
14:07:05 <AlphaXero> 2
14:07:27 <zorkmoid> what is cryptic there?
14:08:32 <AlphaXero> (format t "~{~a:~10t~a~%~}~%" cd)
14:09:05 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
14:09:06 <zorkmoid> Yes, did you read the paragraphs following that?
14:09:32 <AlphaXero> yes I did
14:09:44 <AlphaXero> im trying to figure out where it converts cd into a string
14:09:48 <dim> format is cryptic yes
14:10:02 <AlphaXero> is it !a?
14:10:06 <AlphaXero> *~a
14:10:16 <zorkmoid> AlphaXero: then you read the bit that says: "The ~% directive doesn't consume any arguments but tells FORMAT to emit a newline."
14:10:19 <dim> AlphaXero: try (describe cd) first, maybe, or even (inspect cd)
14:10:32 bitonic [~user@dyn903-244.eduroam.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp
14:11:11 <AlphaXero> yes, I did, also I think I figured it out by experimenting in the repl
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14:11:32 <dim> that's what the repl is for! :)
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14:12:40 <AlphaXero> well, I think I have enough understanding of format for the time being, so that was everything I needed help for so far
14:12:43 <AlphaXero> thanks for the help!
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14:16:36 <elld7> hi
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14:26:49 <Borbus> If I accidentally fill up my slime repl with thousands of lines what's the best way to reset it?
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14:27:23 <Bike> C-c M-o
14:28:05 <Borbus> Huh.. thanks, I looked for that command for ages and couldn't find it
14:28:21 <zorkmoid> today i learnt that emacs from git comes with a internal web browser called eww... so awesome
14:28:40 <zorkmoid> hyperspec lookup is now nice :-)
14:29:58 <Borbus> I have an info version of the hyperspec already
14:30:20 <Borbus> I didn't know emacs was in git
14:31:15 <Xach> loke: that reminds me!
14:31:27 <Xach> loke: did you look at dpans2texi for your project? how is your project going?
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14:32:26 <monokai> Isn't Clojure cleaner (if a little more limited) than CL?   (Still having second thoughts about which dialect to learn.)
14:32:48 <Xach> monokai: It's easier for young things that do not have a goal of backwards-compatibility to be clean.
14:32:48 <H4ns> monokai: for clojure discussions, please consider #clojure
14:33:06 <Xach> monokai: I think it's nice to find "large", mature things that are also pretty great.
14:33:35 <monokai> H4ns, I'm not discussing Clojure per se, just thinking about which dialect to pick for learning.
14:33:45 <Xach> Common Lisp is the greatest and best Lisp.
14:33:48 <H4ns> monokai: well, learn common lisp.
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14:34:06 <monokai> This post is sort of convincing: http://forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?p=1683581&sid=95ed39d1602c22169aa6f5dcc48db0b7#p1683581
14:34:12 -!- hajovonta [pwqao@62.212.72.240] has quit [Quit: end of day]
14:34:19 <monokai> But maybe I'm just starting a flame war... ;)  (Not my intention.)
14:34:39 <H4ns> monokai: you could reduce the possibility by not trying to discuss clojure :)
14:34:46 <monokai> Or maybe Scheme would be the best... if it wasn't a little impractical for writing real software.
14:34:48 <Zhivago> monokai: There are certainly situations where Clojure will be a better choice.
14:34:50 <zorkmoid> Xach: word.
14:35:10 <Zhivago> monokai: Work out what your requirements are more clearly and it should be easier to evaluate what's appropriate.
14:37:24 <monokai> Zhivago, hard to talk of requirements, when I don't know Lisp at all. I want to learn it because of its "enlightening" fame. But I also want to learn something practical - to write software with from the start, not just silly exercises - which is why I rejected Scheme.
14:37:54 <Zhivago> monokai: Beyond learning lisp, what do you want to achieve?
14:38:12 <Zhivago> Well, that's completely stupid.
14:38:19 <Zhivago> You can write software in Scheme.
14:38:31 <Zhivago> So work out what you actually mean by "write software".
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14:38:54 <Zhivago> When you can explain that, you should have clearer requirements.
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14:43:31 <zorkmoid> quite big things have been written in scheme
14:44:25 <monokai> Zhivago: 1) "expand my horizons" as far as I can - i.e. learn as many new concepts and ways of thinking as possible, which I won't encounter in C-like langs. And for that "enlightening" purpose a dialect should be a) as clean as possible for a newbie to easily grasp stuff and not fight against hairy quirks; b) as feature-ful as possible (I'm hearing tail-recursion is not in every Lisp. No idea what it is, but probably should learn. ;)
14:45:03 <zorkmoid> monokai: you won't get enlightenment in lisp
14:45:07 <zorkmoid> there is no such thing
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14:45:17 <jagaj> monokai: you would learn more by choosing _anything_ than consistently talking about what to choose
14:45:30 <Denommus> I need inspiration on a name
14:45:46 <monokai> Zhivago: 2) "write software":  well, probably some webby (backend) stuff, not sure yet. It has to be practical. I wouldn't want to dive into Scheme and then learn there's no libs for some basic web stuff or whatever.
14:46:08 <monokai> zorkmoid, OK, that was a thought shortcut. I'm sure you know what I mean.
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14:47:00 <oGMo> there are two types of people who want to go learn something, those that go learn it, and those that constantly talk about learning it and never do
14:47:49 <monokai> wow, that was deep
14:48:15 <H4ns> heh.
14:48:42 <jagaj> there's obviously a third type, those who talk about people who want to learn things ;)
14:48:43 <sid_cypher> oGMo: nice observation
14:49:33 <sid_cypher> there are also people who learn 3 things at the same time and talk about the other 10 they don't have time for)
14:50:05 AlphaXero [AlphaXero@c-69-242-121-34.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
14:50:16 <AlphaXero> well, I'm back...
14:50:17 <AlphaXero> http://pastebin.com/wfJa5SZC
14:50:27 <AlphaXero> wtf is an unexpected end of file
14:50:33 <AlphaXero> google yielded nothing helpful
14:50:58 <H4ns> AlphaXero: missing closing paren on line 28
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14:51:28 <H4ns> AlphaXero: please use an editor that helps you with getting your parentheses balanced.  most people here use emacs, but most editors can do it.
14:51:42 <AlphaXero> im using lispbox
14:51:43 <sid_cypher> monokai: read your post link about CL being old and dead and too procedural as opposed to fp. a highly doubtful opinion, especially with all the extention libs in quicklisp
14:51:56 <H4ns> AlphaXero: very good.  so then emacs already helps you.
14:52:12 <AlphaXero> when I started I was using sublime text 2 with sbcl (by command line)
14:52:21 <zorkmoid> AlphaXero: please don't let parens be alone, they like to hug each other...
14:52:23 <AlphaXero> but i wanted to use lispbox so I could follow the book better
14:53:07 <AlphaXero> is there a way to make emacs highlight the corrosponding paren whenever I cursor over a paren?
14:53:33 <sid_cypher> AlphaXero: delete and type it again?
14:53:50 <zorkmoid> sid_cypher: that article is funny ... "(which is quite rare - a lot of people get out of CL as soon as they see what Scheme can do)"
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14:54:49 <sid_cypher> autoindentation speaks volumes about the nesting structure, just reformat, remove parens at the end and add them again - is what i'd do
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14:56:21 <sid_cypher> zorkmoid: i am under impression that it's the other way around, whether we look at software project _or_ language features
14:56:51 <sid_cypher> *projects (as in number,size,quality)
14:57:19 <AlphaXero> w00t, code now works perfectly, thanks guys!
14:57:30 <AlphaXero> btw, is there a way to make emacs show line numbers?
14:57:51 <sid_cypher> AlphaXero: M-x linum-mode
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14:59:00 <AlphaXero> when I try to press control+m it just makes a newline
14:59:12 <AlphaXero> you do use control to enter commands in emacs, right?
14:59:16 <sid_cypher> Meta-x is Alt-x
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14:59:22 <AlphaXero> ohhh
14:59:28 <AlphaXero> that would explain why nothing works
15:00:30 <sid_cypher> AlphaXero: one useful thing to know is that C-g (Control-g) aborts the input chain and/or minibuffer programs
15:00:57 <AlphaXero> thanks!
15:01:03 <H4ns> C-h t gets you to the emacs tutorial, which is very much worth going through for anyone who is new to emacs.
15:01:18 <AlphaXero> ive never used emacs, so I'll have to try it
15:01:24 <sid_cypher> so if you type C-x C-f to open a file and change your mind, C-g aborts, for example
15:03:02 -!- Ralt [Ralt@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:6c69] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
15:03:05 <sid_cypher> and all the key combos you see here can be explained with C-h k (that is Control-"help" "keycombination")
15:03:43 <dim> is it (easily) possible to output CDATA blocks with cl-who?
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15:04:28 <H4ns> dim: if it is not in the documentation, then it is is not possible i'd say :)
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15:04:55 <dim> yeah that was my first reaction, then I though I might ask
15:05:07 <dim> I mean, being disapointed not to find it in the docs
15:05:26 <pkhuong> dim: print directly to the stream?
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15:08:10 <dim> that's an idea
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15:10:11 <AlphaXero> so now im in the part of the chapter where you save the database, but its giving me a permission deinied? Is that because its not running as admin, and im saving directly to c:/ im guessing?
15:10:31 <Xach> Could be.
15:10:34 <dim> convert-tag-to-string-list might be what I want
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15:11:35 <AlphaXero> yup, saved it somewhere else and it worked fine
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15:12:12 <AlphaXero> whats the command to flush everything out of the repl? (function definitions, variables, and so on)
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15:14:36 <pkhuong> AlphaXero: ,restart-inferior-lisp
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15:14:52 <AlphaXero> ty
15:14:58 hwiersma [~hwiersma@d50-92-237-119.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp
15:15:02 <AlphaXero> also, why is it caleld inferior lisp? seems a bit odd to me
15:15:05 <AlphaXero> *called
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15:15:27 <sauerkrause> it's submissive to another process
15:15:52 <AlphaXero> oh
15:15:54 <sid_cypher> AlphaXero: Emacs lisp is a self-proclaimed superior )
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15:15:57 <AlphaXero> that makes sense
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15:16:42 <Denommus> I'm contemplating the macro that I just made
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15:17:28 <sid_cypher> (loop while (not (enlightenedp *self*)))
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15:17:56 <Denommus> 16 lines of code and it's already very near of the syntax I want to define
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15:43:28 <dim> is it possible to sanely use &key and &rest in a defun lambda expression?
15:43:47 <pkhuong> dim: yes.
15:44:09 <dim> it's not obvious from tests such as (flet ((quux (&rest bar &key foo) (declare (ignore foo)) (list bar))) (quux 'a 'b 'c :foo 'x))
15:44:17 <pkhuong> well, if your definition of sanity coincides with the standard's. You probably want &allow-other-keys.
15:44:18 <dim> maybe time to read the docs... :)
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15:45:09 <Denommus> dim: what do you mean by "sane"? Personally, I don't think combining &key and &rest to be very sane. When I need that, I'll usually have a :rest parameter that accepts a list
15:45:44 <Xach> Combining &rest and &key is very very useful if you want to apply args to some keyword-accepting function down the line.
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15:46:16 <dim> pkhuong: ok my expectation of sanity does not coincides with the standard's here
15:46:23 <pkhuong> and then the priority of keyword arguments is extremely useful.
15:46:24 <dim> Denommus: yeah, sounds best
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15:47:00 <dim> in my case I have a function accepting as many "tags" as you want to throw at it and now I want to add a keyword parameter
15:47:09 <dim> so best seems to revise the API
15:48:18 <theseb> people say Lisp Machines lost because of Moore's Law but why couldn't Moore's Law have worked for Lisp machines too?
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15:48:57 <dim> budget?
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15:49:37 <theseb> dim: dunno.....that would mean there is not *technical* reason for lisp machines's failure..that would be interesting
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