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23:10:20 -barjavel.freenode.net:#lisp- [freenode-info] help freenode weed out clonebots -- please register your IRC nick and auto-identify: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup 23:13:46 s0ber_ [~s0ber@114-25-201-90.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 23:13:46 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.161.133.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:14:00 -!- strobegen [~strobegen@64.120.223.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:16:22 -!- MoALTz [~no@host86-142-161-119.range86-142.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:16:22 -!- grix [~user@c-98-214-105-38.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:16:55 -!- techlife [techlife@218.59.113.120] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:19:26 MoALTz_ [~no@host86-142-161-119.range86-142.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 23:19:26 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-129-191.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 23:19:26 groovy2shoes [~cory@unaffiliated/groovebot] has joined #lisp 23:19:26 KingNato_ 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23:24:37 -!- sirdancealo2 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:24:37 Bike_ [~Glossina@63-229-130-176.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:24:37 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 23:24:37 -!- vert2_ [vert2@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-lxhwszcukitiqegd] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:24:37 vert2 [vert2@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-tyhtvrqyyzlpzcxm] has joined #lisp 23:24:37 i get control-stack exhausted upon adding a few gfs, methods and a macro to my events.lisp in mcclim.... 23:24:37 when i run mcclim app beirc actually not when starting repl.... 23:24:37 expez- [~expez@expez.com] has joined #lisp 23:24:37 -!- Bike [~Glossina@63-229-130-176.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 23:24:37 -!- Bike_ is now known as Bike 23:24:37 galdor_ [galdor@78.193.58.122] has joined #lisp 23:24:38 ccorn_ [~ccorn@i52104.upc-i.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 23:24:38 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.127.74] has joined 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[~cdidd@89-178-168-11.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 23:25:43 zz__ [~zz__@li490-98.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 23:25:50 <|3b|> wbooze: so you added some functions that call themselves recursively with no termination condition and are surprised by running out of stack? 23:25:53 ramus [~ramus@c-50-132-91-53.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:25:59 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:26:08 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@71.21.67.242] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 23:26:13 3b: ? 23:26:13 Amadiro [jonathri@dalvik.ping.uio.no] has joined #lisp 23:26:19 why call themselves ? 23:26:34 ether0 [~ether0@72.22.83.65] has joined #lisp 23:26:39 cYmen [~cymen@squint.a-oben.org] has joined #lisp 23:26:54 <|3b|> window-configuration-event-width calls the macro get-window-size, which expands to a call to window-configuration-event-width? 23:26:59 dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-32-223.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:27:14 -!- techlife [techlife@218.59.113.120] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:27:43 paddymahoney [~paddymaho@198-84-186-52.cpe.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 23:27:48 *|3b|* assumes by 'commented out' you mean 'not commented out' 23:27:49 it's exactly the same gfs methods and a macro as it already is contained in events.lisp, just copied them and changed some stuff....if you are interested peek into events.lisp 23:28:12 <|3b|> so 'exactly the same' except 'changed'... sounds like exactly 'not the same' 23:28:14 if your arguemnt were true then those would equally call themselves recursively and run out of stack.... 23:28:40 df_ [~df@aldur.bowerham.net] has joined #lisp 23:28:44 so what ? 23:28:48 window-configuration-event-width on event expands into a call to window-configuration-even-width on event 23:28:51 -!- ahoops [~ahoops__@121.96.14.223] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:28:55 that is not going to work 23:29:02 deliciousrobots [~delicious@stevegoss.xen.prgmr.com] has joined #lisp 23:29:03 johs [~johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 23:29:03 weie_ [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 23:29:17 -!- deliciousrobots [~delicious@stevegoss.xen.prgmr.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 23:30:47 <|3b|> are you saying it is the same as get-window-position macro? 23:30:51 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.204.109] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:30:52 almost 23:30:53 it's just fetching other slots 23:30:53 that's all 23:30:54 <|3b|> if so, note that one of the things you changed is that it doesn't call the same generic function 23:31:22 get-window-position fetches x and y, and mine fetches width and height.... 23:31:35 deliciousrobots [~delicious@stevegoss.xen.prgmr.com] has joined #lisp 23:31:35 <|3b|> no, it fetches native-x 23:32:24 -!- cyphase_ [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 23:33:42 yes native-x 23:33:47 <|3b|> it is called from -x 23:34:03 <|3b|> yous is called from -width and calls -width 23:34:08 <|3b|> position is called from -x and calls -native-x 23:34:13 i had tried (transform-region (sheet-native-region ,sheet) too 23:34:24 <|3b|> maybe you should try not calling the function that is calling the macro instead 23:34:24 bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 23:34:24 yes that's why i renamed mine 23:34:24 huh ? 23:34:24 how do you mean ? 23:35:26 *|3b|* isn't sure how to be more specific 23:35:26 cyphase__ [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #lisp 23:35:26 <|3b|> what are you even trying to do? 23:35:26 trying to get window-configuration-event handling working on my mcclim 23:35:26 it does not work here.... 23:35:26 i wanted to repaint the sheet and update the pane on resize events too... 23:35:26 which failed.... 23:35:33 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@114-25-201-90.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:35:42 vh0st- [~vhost@li540-47.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 23:35:47 normanrichards [~normanric@71.21.67.242] has joined 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fact i donot understand the meaning of "Program tried to wait with no scheduler" ? 00:32:25 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhf.htm 00:32:29 -!- agumonkey [~agu@8.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:32:32 -!- joneshf [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:32:35 -!- Keshi [~Keshi@unaffiliated/keshi] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 00:33:39 -!- techlife [techlife@218.59.113.120] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:33:55 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.127.74] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:34:14 -!- EvW [~Thunderbi@a82-92-190-215.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:34:15 -!- brown` [user@nat/google/x-ehhsimqmfbpttmca] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:34:15 justinmcp [quassel@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:3fac] has joined #lisp 00:34:23 agumonkey [~agu@8.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 00:34:29 november 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[~timo@85.158.178.76] has joined #lisp 00:43:10 loke [~loke@203.127.16.194] has joined #lisp 00:43:10 52AAARIBQ [drbig@unhallowed.pl] has joined #lisp 00:43:10 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-183-240-66.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:43:11 -!- 52AAARIBQ [drbig@unhallowed.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:43:11 -!- wws [~billstcla@p-69-195-59-207.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 00:43:28 -!- SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-181-109-90.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:43:31 -!- techlife [techlife@218.59.113.120] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:43:36 cdidd [~cdidd@89-178-168-11.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 00:44:16 Why the #. causes such a difference: http://paste.lisp.org/display/136319 00:45:26 ered-away [~ered@75-101-56-39.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 00:45:26 srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 00:45:26 feliped [~felideon@199.241.28.84] has joined #lisp 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#lisp 01:02:43 sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has joined #lisp 01:03:58 justinmcp_ [quassel@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:3fac] has joined #lisp 01:05:06 -!- surrounder [~surrounde@095-096-032-026.static.chello.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:05:08 foom2 [jknight@nat/google/x-swvqqokxhghvehec] has joined #lisp 01:05:19 -!- agumonkey [~agu@8.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:06:16 Jubb_ [~Jubb@pool-108-28-62-61.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:06:18 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@101.171.224.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:07:04 |3b|: :) "so 'exactly the same' except 'changed'... sounds like exactly 'not the same'" is downright tweetworthy 01:07:32 rking [~rking@unaffiliated/rking] has joined #lisp 01:07:38 -!- re-enact85 [~re-enact8@c-67-182-147-102.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:07:42 gf3_ [~gf3@aether.gf3.ca] has joined #lisp 01:07:44 -!- honkfestival 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by peer] 01:08:13 -!- N3RG4L [~N3RG4L@192.210.208.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:08:39 macrobat__ [~fuzzyglee@h-8-92.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 01:09:10 PuffTheMagic [uid3325@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kxcvimxfylrpmvxd] has joined #lisp 01:09:22 SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-181-109-90.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 01:09:24 N3RG4L [~N3RG4L@192.210.208.231] has joined #lisp 01:09:56 -!- sambio_ [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has quit [*.net *.split] 01:09:56 -!- cddr [user@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:b02b] has quit [*.net *.split] 01:09:56 -!- z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [*.net *.split] 01:09:56 -!- antifuchs [~foobar@boots.boinkor.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 01:10:00 surrounder [~surrounde@095-096-032-026.static.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 01:10:43 -!- karswell [~user@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:11:15 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:11:30 -!- techlife [techlife@218.59.113.120] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:12:06 stumbles [~stumbles@2001:44b8:41c5:9600:219:d1ff:fe10:f770] has joined #lisp 01:12:14 Bike: After read time, why doesnot the 2nd version evaluated ? 01:13:07 I can't understand what you just wrote. 01:13:11 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-181-109-90.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:13:16 cddr [user@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:b02b] has joined #lisp 01:13:16 z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #lisp 01:13:16 antifuchs [~foobar@boots.boinkor.net] has joined #lisp 01:13:22 -!- strobegen [~strobegen@64.120.223.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:15:01 i mean it seems that the non #. version doesnot get evaluated ? 01:15:28 as the value is still '(1 2 3) 01:16:16 -!- foom2 [jknight@nat/google/x-swvqqokxhghvehec] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:16:18 techlife [techlife@218.59.113.120] has joined #lisp 01:16:19 -!- macrobat__ [~fuzzyglee@h-8-92.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:16:24 -!- Guest57104 [x@ns3.suspicious.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:17:02 -!- ttm [~The_third@irc.tocards.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:17:08 `(progn ,@(loop for a in '(r z x) collect `(incf ,a))) seems not executed ? 01:17:27 -!- Amadiro [jonathri@dalvik.ping.uio.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:17:45 justinmcp [quassel@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:3fac] has joined #lisp 01:18:13 strz [~strobegen@64.120.223.138] has joined #lisp 01:18:26 -!- strz is now known as strobegen 01:18:42 wws [~billstcla@p-69-195-59-207.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has joined #lisp 01:19:18 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:19:23 The_third_man [~The_third@irc.tocards.net] has joined #lisp 01:19:29 -!- N3RG4L [~N3RG4L@192.210.208.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:19:30 xristos [x@ns3.suspicious.org] has joined #lisp 01:19:34 -!- tjos [~tim@101.174.161.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:19:41 sw2wolf: for the #. version, the code in the progn (progn (incf r) (incf z) (incf x)) is constructed at readtime and then executed as part of the code. in the second version the construction takes place at evaluation time, that is the actual form is returned by the first expression in the with-accessors 01:19:48 kpreid_ [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 01:19:50 -!- kpreid_ is now known as kpreid 01:20:19 -!- spacefro1 [~spacefrog@141.76.92.5] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:20:29 jsucsy1 [~jsucsy@38.108.127.66] has joined #lisp 01:20:29 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.127.74] has joined #lisp 01:20:42 -!- teiresia1 is now known as teiresias 01:20:52 -!- teiresias [~teiresias@2001:470:1f04:9a5::2] has quit [Changing host] 01:20:52 teiresias [~teiresias@archlinux/trusteduser/teiresias] has joined #lisp 01:20:54 -!- PuffTheMagic [uid3325@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kxcvimxfylrpmvxd] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:20:54 scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has joined #lisp 01:20:55 -!- xristos is now known as Guest63434 01:21:11 -!- justinmcp_ [quassel@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:3fac] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:21:17 PuffTheMagic [uid3325@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vyplhpzugqumorsm] has joined #lisp 01:21:20 spacefro1 [~spacefrog@141.76.92.5] has joined #lisp 01:21:22 foom2 [jknight@nat/google/x-uhnjjpeuiseqovsv] has joined #lisp 01:21:36 xrq [~user@unaffiliated/xrq] has joined #lisp 01:21:55 N3RG4L [~N3RG4L@192.210.208.231] has joined #lisp 01:22:16 Amadiro [jonathri@dalvik.ping.uio.no] has joined #lisp 01:22:17 tjos [~tim@101.174.161.170] has joined #lisp 01:23:25 Then in the second version, (incf ...) never happens ? 01:24:06 No. You could read that backquoted form as (list 'progn '(incf r) '(incf z) '(incf x)). 01:25:32 yes, but the values is indeed not increased ? maybe i need to macroexpand the second version ... 01:25:52 quasisan1 [~sanep@c-24-218-184-186.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:25:56 Yes. The code I just wrote there involves (incf r) as quoted. 01:26:38 -!- quasisane [~sanep@c-24-218-184-186.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:26:52 tsetumel [~shimoco@bzq-79-181-109-90.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 01:26:55 -!- SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-181-109-90.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:27:07 PuffTheMagic_ [uid3325@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cookrqypyqcysqwr] has joined #lisp 01:27:14 -!- cmbntr [~cmbntr@slice.loopback.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:27:52 -!- eMBee [~eMBee@foresight/developer/pike/programmer] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:28:00 -!- techlife [techlife@218.59.113.120] has quit [*.net *.split] 01:28:01 -!- jsucsy [~jsucsy@38.108.127.66] has quit [*.net *.split] 01:28:01 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [*.net *.split] 01:28:01 -!- bobbysmith0071 [~russ@216.155.127.74] has quit [*.net *.split] 01:28:01 -!- akovalen` [~user@195.18.46.21] has quit [*.net *.split] 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host closed the connection] 05:59:58 -!- __main__ [~main@c-67-180-22-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:01:15 __main__ [~main@c-67-180-22-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:03:17 techlife [techlife@218.59.113.120] has joined #lisp 06:08:35 teggi [~teggi@113.172.59.16] has joined #lisp 06:10:14 sw2wolf [~czsq888@110.188.69.57] has joined #lisp 06:15:58 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 06:17:10 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.168] has joined #lisp 06:20:59 ecraven [~user@www.nexoid.at] has joined #lisp 06:21:09 -!- stumbles [~stumbles@2001:44b8:41c5:9600:219:d1ff:fe10:f770] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:22:49 -!- sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has quit [] 06:23:40 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:27:19 -!- Bike_ is now known as Bike 06:41:34 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.180.79.135] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:42:32 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 06:44:51 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Quit: Scheduled restart to prevent possible database corruption] 06:45:07 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 06:45:08 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:49:45 mal_ [mal@ks24170.kimsufi.com] has joined #lisp 06:51:36 MrWGW- [~MrWGW-@irssi.wgwilkins.net] has joined #lisp 06:51:39 hey there 06:51:51 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@24.56.241.224] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:51:52 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:52:01 why is it that in clisp, you can enter the name of a variable without parens in the repl to see its value 06:52:07 but you can't do the same with a function? 06:52:17 at least, a variable defined with a defparam and a function defined with defun 06:52:26 #'foo 06:52:48 foo will evaluate by default to the value associated with the name foo. 06:53:01 #'foo or (function foo) will evaluate to the function associated with the name foo. 06:53:51 that seems to print out the code that comprises the function but not run it 06:54:25 If you want to run it you need a call, of course... 06:54:28 (foo) 06:55:17 wouldn't it in a sense make lisp even more functional and homoiconic if there was no difference at all between attempting to obtain the value of a function or a variable? 06:55:39 minion: chant 06:55:39 MORE FUNCTIONAL 06:57:04 is there any way to accomplish that? 06:57:19 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@101.175.65.1] has joined #lisp 06:57:20 switch to scheme 06:57:52 ccorn [~ccorn@i52104.upc-i.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 06:58:10 I probably should 06:58:28 mrwgw: Sure, depending on how you value those things. 06:58:40 Scheme is a cut down CL :) 06:58:55 mainly what I'd like to be able to do is go (function argument1 argument2) where either argument could be a var or a param 06:58:59 mrwgw: Personally, my main criticism is that they share the same name FOO. 06:59:10 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:59:24 without having to enclose the argument in parens if it is a function 06:59:35 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 06:59:37 MrWGW-: why? 06:59:37 mrwgw: What does encoding in parans have to do with that? 06:59:41 or in other words, having to know whether or not it is in fact a function or a variable 07:00:20 er, enclosing. 07:00:33 Remember that you're passing _values_, not functions or variables. 07:00:42 Zhivago: if its a function, to get it to evaluate to its results you have to enclose it, whereas on the other hand if its a variable or a constant or a literal you don't enclose it 07:00:52 you seem very confused 07:01:00 about what a function is 07:01:03 So, you want to make it impossible to refer to a function without calling it? 07:01:09 no 07:01:15 e.g., that foo should be the same as (foo)? 07:01:55 I merely want a consistent way to refer to both 07:02:29 To refer to a value that is? 07:02:34 right 07:02:44 Well, you do -- it's called a form. 07:02:48 without having to know whether or not its being produced by a variable or a literal or a function 07:02:58 what am I missing here? 07:03:21 (foo x) -- foo receives a value produced by evaluating the form x. 07:03:28 It doesn't care what that form is. 07:03:42 right 07:03:44 The form might be (+ a b) or (function c) 07:03:52 So, it sounds like it already does what you're asking for. 07:04:21 so can you encapsulate a function in a special form so you could go (foo x) where x is a function? 07:04:45 Why would you need a special form for that -- just arrange for x to be a form that evaluates to a function value. 07:06:38 forgive my ignorance, but how do you do that? like lets say you had a function defined with (defun myfunc () (+ '1 '2)) 07:06:43 how would you make that be a form? 07:06:49 That's already a form. 07:07:22 If you want a form that just produces the function value associated with myfunc as a function, then you can use (function myfunc) to get it. 07:07:30 Or (symbol-function 'myfunc') 07:08:16 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-171-125.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 07:08:21 ok let me give that a twirl 07:08:26 that's what I'm after basically 07:09:00 Fortunately that happens to be how CL works already. 07:09:04 err 07:09:10 I don't think we're quite on the same page 07:09:31 I just want to be able to in some manner call a specific function without enclosing it in parens, similiar to how you can access the value of a variable 07:09:31 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-181-109-90.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 07:09:38 you see what I'm saying? 07:09:45 But then you couldn't refer to the function itself. 07:10:21 that's alright, in this case 07:10:22 MrWGW-: Lisp need parens to call function 07:10:35 is there a way to bypass that? 07:10:38 like with a macro or something 07:10:45 funcall? 07:10:51 MrWGW-: so basically, what you want to do is define your own language. it can be done from within lisp using macros, but you'll need to learn how macros work first. 07:11:00 -!- Bike [~Glossina@63-229-130-176.ptld.qwest.net] has left #lisp 07:11:18 No parens no lisp :) 07:11:31 I only want to override the parens partially and for a specific case 07:11:37 MrWGW-: read "on lisp" by paul graham. 07:11:39 basically what I'm looking to do is define a minimal DSL 07:11:52 then macro 07:11:54 MrWGW-: right. it is possible. if you know the basics. 07:11:57 where the remainder of lisp is available for extensibility 07:12:21 I figured a macro could do it, I was just curious if there was any more direct way of bypassing the parens, but that's good stuff 07:12:35 MrWGW-: there is no way to "bypass the parens" 07:12:37 what do you think of the book Land of Lisp? I've been enjoying it quite a bit 07:12:57 protist [~protist@216.174.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has joined #lisp 07:13:03 -!- SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-181-109-90.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:13:03 note that I'm not one of the people who hates lisp because of its use of paranethesis, I find it to be elegant to look at 07:13:12 MrWGW-: read "on lisp" if you want to get a thorough treatment of macros. 07:13:22 alright 07:13:30 i wrote a crude regular expression engine in 40 minutes today in lisp...and i hardly know lisp 07:13:55 outstanding 07:13:58 :D 07:14:05 it was 12 lines haha 07:14:20 mrwgw: You need to stop saying 'enclose in parentheses'. 07:14:42 now i added a bit of stuff....i am thinking it could be fun to expand and make it professional...maybe allow embedded code like Perl :D 07:14:49 And then you need to work out what problem you're actually trying to solve -- I suspect that you haven't quite grasped that CL uses pass-by-value. 07:15:44 i think lisp allowing code embedded in regexes would be awesome 07:15:58 i would probably not use Perl nearly as much if i could cram Perl into it 07:16:15 protist: it would not be awesome to include lisp code in string literals 07:16:24 H4ns: why not? 07:16:42 protist: but cl-ppcre has a way how you can write regular expressions in s-expressions so that you can embed lisp code 07:16:59 protist: for starters, editing lisp code hidden in string literals is painful. 07:17:05 H4ns: imagine like /regexxxxxx{?(code arg1 arg2)}morerege*x/ 07:17:17 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit [] 07:17:43 protist: makes me shudder 07:17:45 sounds like a parser nightmare when you can just use sexps 07:18:04 H4ns: lisp code is is basically written in AST form...sounds like one of the easiest languages to implement this in....aside from FORTH 07:18:19 Zhivago: specifically what I'm looking to do is write certain 'commands' that invoke normal lisp functions but are just one-word triggers with no arguments 07:18:22 shortcuts, if you will 07:18:23 or aliases 07:19:03 anyone wanna critique my naive Lisp code? 07:19:56 Gooder [~user@192.200.153.54] has joined #lisp 07:20:07 protist: I'd enjoy seeing it 07:20:13 MrWGW-: http://ideone.com/XgZhO7 07:20:47 MrWGW-: note it is very crude right now :) 07:20:48 protist: don't nest defuns, use labels or flet for that 07:21:46 H4ns: ah i thought flet was kind of like nested defuns 07:21:49 protist: in verbosecheck, the if could be at the place where the " matches " / " does not match " string is. 07:22:23 protist: the rest of your code is too dense for me to read 07:22:45 H4ns: ellaborate about the if please :) 07:23:02 mrwgw: Are you familiar with symbol-macros? 07:23:24 not yet 07:23:59 protist: (if a (b c d) (b c e)) => (b c (if a d e)) 07:24:12 They allow you to have xxx expand to an arbitrary form such as (function xxx). 07:24:17 H4ns: AH! beautiful thank you :D 07:24:24 It might be what you want, although what you want doesn't make a great deal of sense to me. 07:25:11 perfect 07:25:16 that's exactly what I wanted 07:25:32 because with a macro to call it it still needs to be enclosed in parens, whereas with a symbol-macro it doesn't 07:25:41 so yes indeed, that's what I needed 07:26:25 -!- _zxq9__ [~zxq9@FL1-119-244-167-168.okn.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:26:32 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:26:45 zxq9 [~zxq9@FL1-119-244-167-168.okn.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 07:26:47 I just implemented what I was trying to do using define-symbol-macro 07:27:15 one thing btw that I'm a bit unclear on from the docs on symbol-macros (on ai.mit.edu); can symbol-macros be defined to take arguments in the same manner as regular macros? 07:27:29 MrWGW-: any thoughts on my code?...are there some idioms i should know about? 07:27:35 was there any incarnation of something along the lines of "Hello #{n}!" in lisp? other than (format "Hello %s!" n)? 07:28:18 jaimef: look at cl-interpol 07:28:27 H4ns thanks 07:28:54 jaimef: i made a printeach function in my link....there is probably a better way thought....my function allows (printeach "Hello " name "!") 07:29:04 though* 07:29:20 protist: does your cond statement need to be implemented with a cond? usually the flexibility of cond isn't required and you can get better performance if you use a case statement 07:29:39 ahh, ripping off a ruby web framework in elisp, and was looking for a lispy version of the equivalent. thanks 07:29:47 -!- tkd_ is now known as tkd 07:29:53 similiar to how in some other languages case statements or switches outperform long if/elsif structures 07:30:08 MrWGW-: i need to not fall through...so i guess i need a cond? 07:30:26 of course cond is much more elegant and interesting than the nightmarish if/elsif stuff 07:30:27 carlo5m [~carlo5m@c-71-198-252-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:30:30 ahh 07:30:40 mrwgw: Symbol macros have no place to receive arguments. 07:31:54 MrWGW-: i could probably change the doeacchar to a maplist 07:32:01 jaimef: check out #lispweb 07:32:04 doeachchar* 07:32:06 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:32:12 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-175-80.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:32:17 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-136-253.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:33:09 Zhivago: but can they? 07:33:43 lukego [~lukego@xdsl-188-154-13-223.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 07:34:10 what I'm trying to avoid writing is a parser for my dsl that reads commands and either does something or calls eval on them 07:34:32 MrWGW-: link me :D 07:34:38 in other words, if possible, I'd like my DSL to be 'real lisp' 07:34:47 protist: to what? 07:34:51 MrWGW-: your code 07:34:57 MrWGW-: i am curious about your DSL 07:35:14 protist: its not ready to be seen yet, its an experimental rewrite of existing code I've authored in python 07:35:21 right now it does not exist outside of my repl session... 07:35:30 I'm just messing around with the repl trying to find the ideal building blocks 07:35:34 the current python codebase is here: 07:35:35 MrWGW-: repl? 07:36:02 http://sourceforge.net/projects/dynafabric/ 07:36:10 protist: you know, the read-evaluate-print-loop 07:36:15 -!- lukego [~lukego@xdsl-188-154-13-223.adslplus.ch] has left #lisp 07:36:16 I myself am using clisp 07:36:20 MrWGW-: what you want to do is not how lisp normally works, so you'll need to tell the lisp that what follows is your dsl, not normal lisp code. 07:36:27 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:36:32 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:36:56 H4ns: right, I get that, the main thing I don't want to do is write something that amounts to a case statement that then uses an otherwise eval 07:37:00 you see what I'm saying? 07:37:07 MrWGW-: no. 07:37:07 its a bit late and I may not be expressing myself well 07:37:28 xificurC [xificurC@nat/ibm/x-hnfnwcmwxvuvorpp] has joined #lisp 07:37:29 tay1 [~sfd2dsfd@cpe-67-244-64-50.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:37:35 -!- tay1 [~sfd2dsfd@cpe-67-244-64-50.nyc.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 07:37:36 H4ns: you know how with an external DSL, you write a parser in a given language, that parses your DSL 07:37:39 whereas with an internal DSL 07:37:58 you write your DSL as a subset of the language you're implementing it in, with some unique features 07:38:10 MrWGW-: i get that. the point is, with an internal dsl, you'll have to obey the syntax rules of the host language up to a certain point. 07:38:14 I'm hoping to levarage Lisp's syntactic flexibility to implement an internal DSL 07:38:22 albeit one where the primary commands look very different from normal lisp 07:38:32 but where regular lisp function calls et cetera also work 07:38:39 MrWGW-: if you want to change how lisp interprets a stream of symbols, then you'll have to come up with the proper macrology to do that. 07:38:44 and can also be passed to the primary DSL commands as arguments 07:39:13 well thus far, symbol-macros seem to be doing most of what I need 07:39:31 except that they do not "accept arguments" 07:39:36 right 07:39:38 which is a problem 07:39:44 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.130] has joined #lisp 07:40:36 now if you enter two symbol-macros simultaneously 07:40:44 they are expanded and evaluated sequentially 07:40:58 is there any way for functions called by the first symbol macro to see the second one and do something with it? 07:41:07 -!- carlo5m [~carlo5m@c-71-198-252-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:41:17 MrWGW-: also, may i point out that it will be hard to read code that is lisp but then has some expressions that look like lisp, but follow completely different evaluation rules? 07:41:41 MrWGW-: maybe you want to look at some of the html generation macro systems for examples how one can embed dsl's (for html generation) in lisp. 07:41:49 i don't see why you wouldn't parse and translate 07:42:06 protist: the problem with parse and translate is that its kind of lame 07:42:22 and you have to maintain the parser 07:42:38 MrWGW-: well you are in effect making an interpretter, right? 07:42:39 if you can get the language to do the work for you without having to write the parser et cetera, you cut down on your work dramatically 07:42:42 protist: that's right 07:42:48 and I'm very close 07:43:03 if I can figure out a way to have a command implemented by a symbol-macro accept an argument, I'm done 07:43:28 MrWGW-: and you believe that we're just not telling you the whole truth, right? 07:43:35 karswell [~user@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:43:43 H4ns: I believe that symbol-macros do not accept arguments, per se 07:43:59 but I suspect there is a way to wrap them in another external layer of macros so as to implement it 07:44:28 can someone give a small example of a "symbol macro"? 07:44:58 ah 07:45:00 protist: (define-symbol-macro print3 (princ 3)) 07:45:13 then enter print3 into your repl 07:46:01 MrWGW-: could you do something like 'print3 and manipulate the S expression? 07:46:07 MrWGW-: then insert args? 07:46:37 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 07:46:49 what I'm trying to avoid doing is writing anything that actually evaluates on its own independently of the Lisp interpreter the raw command string 07:46:56 Why not just write a command line parser? 07:47:14 Zhivago: the repl already is a command line parser, I'm trying to coax it into doing all of my work for me 07:47:27 so all I have to do then is just implement a library of functions 07:47:47 -!- aoh_ is now known as aoh 07:47:55 my experience from dynafabric thus far, which is a fairly non-trivial command parser implemented in python, is that while enjoyable, writing command parsers is a lot of work 07:48:06 zickzackv [~faot@port-92-198-30-130.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:48:15 clhs define-symbol-macro 07:48:16 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defi_1.htm 07:48:26 Well, good luck with that. :) 07:48:38 MrWGW-: the symbol macro seem cool...but it seems like it would be easier to just plan ahead with a grammar and parser 07:48:40 MrWGW-: just ponder REPL for a moment 07:48:59 MrWGW-: what happens is that first something is read, then it is evaluated, then it is printed 07:49:17 protist: at this point I'm honestly so close that I could write a very trivial parser on top of symbol-macros 07:49:38 MrWGW-: you could have the minimal parser just to kludge this last bit, i suppose :) 07:49:52 that would detect whether or not your input string contained something it knew was implemented as a symbol macro, followed by an argument delimeter, and if it detected no arguments, it would eval it directly, whereas otherwise it would translate it into a macro 07:50:03 but I'm sooo close to not even needing to do that much 07:50:39 MrWGW-: you painted yourself into a corner 07:50:51 farzi_ [~farzzz@1.38.26.50] has joined #lisp 07:50:55 writing a DSL in pure FORTH sounds easier than pure Lisp...i wouldn't try to use just symbol macros haha 07:51:01 emphasis on the word 'painted'; this is purely aesthetic 07:51:07 -!- farzi_ [~farzzz@1.38.26.50] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:51:13 (define-symbol-macro print3 (lambda (x) princ x)) 07:51:20 print3 100 07:51:28 =>100 07:51:34 sw2wolf: :D 07:51:55 that's exactly what I was looking for sw2wolf 07:51:59 protist: indeed it is easier, because in forth, it is specified how one reads the input buffer. 07:52:02 now I just have to figure out how the hell that works 07:52:06 it is indeed no parens 07:52:26 H4ns: ;) 07:52:44 MrWGW-: notice that it does not work. 07:53:03 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:53:34 In fact i see define-symbol-macro first time 07:53:55 H4ns: the code sw2wolf posted there is doing what I was after 07:54:17 it works in CLISP 2.49 07:54:41 sw2wolf: how would you take two arguments? 07:54:45 -!- farzi [~farzzz@1.38.24.74] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:54:53 like, implement something that translates to (+ x y) 07:55:15 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 07:55:15 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 07:55:15 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 07:55:17 if I can see how you do that, I think I should on my own be able to extrapolate the rest of this and grok it 07:56:47 (lambda (a b) (+ a b)) i would think 07:57:01 the blind leading the blind 07:57:02 :D 07:57:07 good luck, guys 07:57:17 you could even (lambda (a b) (b a 1 2)) 07:57:27 hehe 07:58:06 MrWGW-: it seems hard to use more than one arguments 07:58:39 sw2wolf: there's got to be a way 07:58:44 :/ 07:58:49 if we can make this work with an arbitrary number of arguments 07:59:04 there'd never be a need to write another actual interpreter again 07:59:08 Have you seen TCL? 07:59:34 Zhivago: yes, and it offers a flexible syntax with its positional parser 07:59:36 I really like it 07:59:42 another language of a similiar nature is io 07:59:50 I thought that you might. 07:59:57 I like io even more 08:00:05 there are some aspects of tcl that are inconsistent and rather crufty 08:00:11 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:00:14 tcl was of course at one time all the rage for implementing DSLs and scripting things 08:00:15 Then why not write an IO implementation in CL? 08:00:17 sadly it fell out of favor 08:00:34 well, I do like IO a lot also 08:00:37 but I like Common LIsp more 08:00:47 Nothing wrong with that. 08:00:48 so for actually writing serious code, like normal real stuff 08:00:54 not bizarre interpreters like what I'm trying to do now 08:01:01 But if you have an IO in CL, then you can integrate them without making a half-arsed botch of everything. 08:01:04 I prefer writing common lisp to writing Io or Tcl 08:01:06 its easier and simpler 08:01:19 but for writing a DSL parser right now, IO would probably be the easiest of the three 08:01:20 Then why do you want to do what you say that you want to do? 08:01:31 because in IO you can really easily override any of the elements of syntax 08:01:39 the reason why I want to try to figure out a way to hack this in common lisp though 08:01:51 is so that I don't have to write the bulk of my program in Io 08:02:05 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:02:17 and reader macros don't fit your requirements? 08:02:17 stassats`, memo from pjb: This is no nonsence. 'GOD' is a variable starting with 'G', therefore if you didn't declare it otherwise, it'll be considered as a REAL number by FORTRAN. In Fortran, GOD is REAL unless declared INTEGER. 08:02:22 So, write the program in CL, and do the commands in Io, and get on with it. 08:02:42 as of now, I'm 90% of the way to doing the entire thing in CL 08:02:52 sight, the spring madness is contagious 08:02:54 -!- leoncamel [~leoncamel@219.143.150.16] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:02:55 sigh 08:03:16 michaelusa [~yaaic@66-87-68-141.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 08:03:26 -!- michaelusa [~yaaic@66-87-68-141.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:03:31 ah 08:03:32 got it 08:03:37 snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 08:03:59 (define-symbol-macro evalx (lambda (x) eval(x)))) 08:04:04 that's what I wanted 08:04:16 the trick was to juts eval the arguments to lambda 08:04:26 michaelusa [~yaaic@66-87-68-141.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 08:04:41 If only that were legal. :) 08:04:47 Are you sure you've been writing a lot of CL? 08:05:25 MrWGW-: you're mislead by the fact that the repl prints the last value entered 08:05:54 http://paste.lisp.org/+2X6S. 08:06:17 MrWGW-: that shows that it doesn't work, it can't work 08:06:38 (macroexpand-1 (define-symbol-macro print3 (lambda (x y) (princ (+ x y))))) => 08:06:39 (LAMBDA (X Y) (PRINC (+ X Y))) 08:06:55 but why print3 1 2 => 2 ? 08:07:22 -!- michaelusa [~yaaic@66-87-68-141.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Client Quit] 08:07:57 dang 08:08:03 I guess I'll just have to write a simple parser then 08:08:11 sw2wolf: that needs to be (funcall print3 1 2) 08:08:14 H4ns: i am mislead by REPL too, 08:08:50 if there was just a way to have a symbol-macro take arguments though 08:08:53 this could all be bypassed 08:09:05 or alternately a built in way to evaluate a non-conformant form 08:09:30 SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-181-109-90.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 08:09:44 stassats`: (funcall ...) works but print3 not 08:10:14 i'm sure pjb` will come later and declare everyone stupid and will say that it's as easy as making #\e a reader-macro 08:10:41 Sure it is; if you want to write a command line parser. 08:10:53 But that option was already reject as being too much like hard work. 08:11:03 it just vexes me that we can come so close to not having to do that 08:11:11 b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@46.36.160.201] has joined #lisp 08:11:17 then i have a solution, why not write (prx 5)? 08:11:18 but we're stopped at literally the last mile by the impossibility of defining arguments to symbol-macros 08:12:04 MrWGW-: maybe let your user like "()" :) 08:12:07 MrWGW-: that's nonsense, symbol-macros are just that, symbol macros, you claim that they are not doing the thing they are not supposed to do 08:13:10 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-181-109-90.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:13:44 stassats`: well I'm not exactly using symbol-macros in the manner for which they are intended 08:13:54 so strictly speaking, you are correct 08:13:55 it's unclear why did you even consider symbol macros in the first place 08:13:57 I have teached kids to like "(+ 1/2 1/3 1/5)"" not "1/2 + 1/3 + 1/5" :P 08:13:59 -!- mcbook [~txtmode@cpe-69-133-58-248.cinci.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:14:33 poor kids 08:14:42 lol 08:14:53 sw2wolf: I personally have no qualms iwth prefix notation, it actually makes more sense 08:15:27 sure 08:15:28 as I see it, (+ 2 3) is syntacticlaly about the same as in English saying "add two and three" 08:15:33 versus saying "two plus three" 08:15:35 foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.101] has joined #lisp 08:15:58 I wish kids would be taught hexadecimal 08:16:08 I really wish in my formative years I had been taught how to do arithmetic in hex 08:16:40 oh 08:16:48 so I could add E and E in my head as easily as I add 14 and 14 08:17:50 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@i52104.upc-i.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 08:18:28 very useful skill 08:20:14 i am not sure if scsh can make user not to input parens ? 08:20:27 sw2wolf: wrong channel 08:20:57 maybe borrow some skills ? 08:21:40 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:21:59 ck_ [~ck@dslb-146-060-028-174.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 08:22:21 *sw2wolf* still see stumpwm code now ... 08:22:29 mcbook [~txtmode@cpe-69-133-58-248.cinci.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:23:08 -!- ck_ [~ck@dslb-146-060-028-174.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:23:35 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:27:09 -!- spacefro1 is now known as spacefrogg 08:27:22 -!- spacefrogg [~spacefrog@141.76.92.5] has quit [Quit: spacefrogg] 08:27:36 spacefrogg [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has joined #lisp 08:28:12 leo2007 [~leo@119.161.133.111] has joined #lisp 08:31:50 nitefli19 [sage@reaver.cat.pdx.edu] has joined #lisp 08:32:40 -!- fasta [~xchat@xs8.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 08:32:51 -!- cmbntr [~cmbntr@slice.loopback.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:33:07 srcerer_ [~chatzilla@63.196.107.132] has joined #lisp 08:33:52 -!- protist [~protist@216.174.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:34:33 ck_ [~ck@dslb-146-060-028-174.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 08:34:37 fasta [~xchat@xs8.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:34:37 cmbntr [~cmbntr@slice.loopback.ch] has joined #lisp 08:35:09 karswell` [~user@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:35:10 xificurC_ [xificurC@nat/ibm/x-cnundymonsujpveh] has joined #lisp 08:35:28 protist [~protist@111.69.174.216] has joined #lisp 08:35:29 -!- protist [~protist@111.69.174.216] has left #lisp 08:35:39 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:35:39 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-136-253.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:35:41 -!- xificurC [xificurC@nat/ibm/x-hnfnwcmwxvuvorpp] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:35:42 -!- nirman [uid10221@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sogzrujiurwzamoi] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:36:08 schatten [uid10221@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ybesiyhuhgmbhtnp] has joined #lisp 08:36:47 tesuji [~tesuji@mail.pit.de] has joined #lisp 08:37:56 Subfusc [~Subfusc@tjenen.de] has joined #lisp 08:38:10 protist [~protist@28.173.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has joined #lisp 08:38:30 MrWGW-: the problem with teaching hex is choosing betwee hex and octal, i think 08:38:39 between* 08:38:54 The problem with hex is -- who gives a damn? We have computers for that kind of thing. 08:38:59 tekai [~tekai@d216188.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #lisp 08:39:13 Zhivago: i think being base16 is more useful than base10 08:39:19 -!- sw2wolf [~czsq888@110.188.69.57] has left #lisp 08:39:29 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-181-109-90.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 08:39:31 Zhivago: powers of two seem more significant to easilly work with than powers of 10 08:39:31 -!- Amadiro [jonathri@dalvik.ping.uio.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:39:31 -!- Guest6366 [x@ns3.suspicious.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:39:33 In which fantasy universe does it have a higher utility? 08:39:43 jtza8_ [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:39:45 If it weren't for network effects, perhaps. 08:39:46 Zhivago: you can double things in hex easier 08:39:49 xristos [x@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:feae:93ba] has joined #lisp 08:39:52 -!- mal_ [mal@ks24170.kimsufi.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 08:39:57 -!- N3RG4L 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error: Connection reset by peer] 08:52:09 Krystof [~user@81.174.155.115] has joined #lisp 08:53:56 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:54:28 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 08:56:18 tiglog [~topeak@61.149.224.217] has joined #lisp 08:57:04 -!- N3RG4L [~N3RG4L@192.210.208.231] has quit [*.net *.split] 08:57:49 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [*.net *.split] 08:58:16 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 08:58:55 N3RG4L [~N3RG4L@192.210.208.231] has joined #lisp 09:05:04 -!- Bike_ is now known as Bike 09:09:33 SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-181-109-90.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 09:11:06 -!- tiglog [~topeak@61.149.224.217] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:13:21 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-181-109-90.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:14:58 I want to keep stats, say the 30 latest measurements, in memory; I wonder if a vector with a fill-pointer that can be reset to 0 is the right data structure? 09:15:46 a ring buffer? 09:15:58 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:16:11 A fill pointer doesn't seem so useful for that. 09:16:43 Although ... two vectors with fill pointers might do nicely. 09:17:40 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:24:29 ring buffer sounds like it, yes, how would you typically implement that in cl? 09:24:59 (I could use a list and chop off it at times, but I guess there's something smarter to do with a fixed size data structure, hence the vector idea) 09:25:27 well if the fill pointer is not what's to use, I can handle a structure with a vector and my own "pointer" (aref index) 09:26:41 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:29:06 -!- leb [~leb@c-24-7-83-224.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leb] 09:29:11 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:32:45 http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-containers/darcs/_darcs/current/dev/ring-buffers.lisp 09:38:47 -!- Bike [~Glossina@63-229-130-176.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: sophisticated decay] 09:39:32 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-181-109-90.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 09:42:09 -!- macrobat__ is now known as macrobat 09:43:19 -!- SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-181-109-90.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:49:12 -!- tekai [~tekai@d216188.adsl.hansenet.de] has quit [Quit: wrok wrok] 09:49:31 bitonic [~user@ppp-232-137.27-151.libero.it] has joined #lisp 09:49:54 snearch [~snearch@brln-4dba79b6.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:49:57 Are there any indentation rules for LOOP? 09:50:36 I use the ones supported by Emacs 09:50:41 just use TAB :) 09:50:43 nostoi [~nostoi@94.Red-79-157-234.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:50:57 i feel foolish about the indentation of every loop i write 09:53:02 its a good tool but challenging aesthetic 09:53:09 xan___ [~xan@80.174.78.209.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 09:54:36 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.209.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:55:51 I'd also like to know when to break a line in loop e.g. should I leave the do on the line where I specify the iteration, or do I start a new line? 09:56:39 ogamita [~t@host.34.193.23.62.rev.coltfrance.com] has joined #lisp 09:56:56 ohnoitsavram: I don't think there's a real consensus on LOOP formatting: just make it readable 09:57:19 there's already no real consensus on using loop, let alone how to indent it :) 09:58:03 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:00:15 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 10:01:24 -!- pegu [~user@cF469BF51.dhcp.as2116.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:01:39 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c25a8.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 10:04:15 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Excess Flood] 10:04:48 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 10:04:48 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 10:04:48 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 10:06:42 leoncamel [~leoncamel@219.143.150.16] has joined #lisp 10:08:36 There's a way to make a de-factor real concsensus on LOOP formating: write an emacs command to format it as you wish, contribute it to slime, and if it's half good, it'll be the de-facto real consensus. 10:09:35 SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-181-109-90.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 10:09:57 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:10:54 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 10:10:54 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 10:10:54 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 10:11:48 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:13:05 ogamita: slime already has that. 10:13:30 -!- tsetumel_ 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[~stumbles@2001:44b8:41c5:9600:219:d1ff:fe10:f770] has joined #lisp 10:48:36 hlavaty [~user@friedrichstrasse.knowledgetools.de] has joined #lisp 10:49:11 -!- weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:49:47 weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 10:50:40 -!- Adeon_ is now known as Adeon 11:00:30 Cymew [~user@fw01d.snowmen.se] has joined #lisp 11:00:39 akovalenko [~user@195.18.46.21] has joined #lisp 11:01:06 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7550b4.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 11:03:33 -!- N3RG4L [~N3RG4L@192.210.208.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:04:53 leo2007 [~leo@111.161.47.175] has joined #lisp 11:04:54 -!- akovalenko [~user@195.18.46.21] has quit [Client Quit] 11:05:51 akovalenko [~user@195.18.46.21] has joined #lisp 11:07:53 -!- springz [~springz@123.151.195.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:07:55 N3RG4L [~N3RG4L@192.210.208.231] has joined #lisp 11:09:37 SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-181-109-90.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 11:10:07 -!- stumbles [~stumbles@2001:44b8:41c5:9600:219:d1ff:fe10:f770] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:10:44 cdidd [~cdidd@95-28-167-47.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 11:11:04 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.168] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:12:14 -!- ``Erik_ is now known as ``Erik 11:13:21 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-181-109-90.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:14:48 aerique: pkhuong: therefore there is a real consensus on LOOP formating: just let slime indent it for you! :-) 11:15:37 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.168] has joined #lisp 11:15:58 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:16:14 hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 11:17:06 akovalen` [~user@95.73.218.109] has joined #lisp 11:18:21 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Excess Flood] 11:18:45 hkBst_ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 11:18:45 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 11:18:45 hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 11:19:36 -!- akovalenko [~user@195.18.46.21] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:20:46 -!- az__ [~andre@37.200.98.169] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 11:20:56 az [~andre@kettu.znaider.de] has joined #lisp 11:21:11 -!- akovalen` [~user@95.73.218.109] has quit [Client Quit] 11:21:42 -!- eichelbart_ [~eichelbar@91-65-57-131-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:22:54 how do i evaluate lisp code in text form in common lisp? 11:23:05 like if i want to eval "(+ 1 2)" 11:23:48 ah got it 11:26:49 *Xach* too late 11:26:49 -!- misv_ is now known as misv 11:27:01 akovalenko [~user@95.73.218.109] has joined #lisp 11:29:17 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:29:54 hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 11:30:26 n¨¨ 11:35:41 H4ns: it seems like the planet lisp to twitter gateway was overactive recently 11:36:01 Xach: yeah, various issue on my side, but they should be resolved now. 11:36:09 sorry for the noise. 11:39:36 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-181-109-90.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 11:43:03 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:43:21 -!- SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-181-109-90.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:43:37 hkBst_ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 11:43:37 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 11:43:37 hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 11:45:14 Joreji [~thomas@77-21-104-59-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 11:48:26 -!- seangrove [~user@125.142.7.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:52:13 -!- davorb_laptop [~textual@ip231-246.wireless.lu.se] has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 11:53:15 agumonkey [~agu@8.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 11:56:34 jaaso [~user@178.239.31.138] has joined #lisp 11:57:26 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 11:57:33 newcup [newcup@peruna.fi] has joined #lisp 11:59:16 akovalen` [~user@195.18.46.21] has joined #lisp 12:00:23 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 12:01:10 -!- akovalenko [~user@95.73.218.109] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:03:02 groovy2shoes [~cory@unaffiliated/groovebot] has joined #lisp 12:04:05 Keshi [~Keshi@unaffiliated/keshi] has joined #lisp 12:05:21 -!- jaaso [~user@178.239.31.138] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:09:36 SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-181-109-90.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 12:10:27 jaaso [~user@178.239.31.138] has joined #lisp 12:13:07 ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:13:07 -!- cades [~mac@59-124-92-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:13:28 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-181-109-90.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:15:09 -!- farzi [~farzzz@1.38.26.52] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:18:53 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 12:20:04 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:20:14 doomlord [~doomlod@host81-159-234-112.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 12:22:03 Neptu [~Neptu@252.67.24.31.static.mrfriday.com] has joined #lisp 12:22:09 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:23:04 simple question how i comment stuff in list? 12:23:07 lisp? 12:23:18 question of a true beginner 12:23:40 ; 12:23:52 ok 12:25:18 p_l, there is block comments? 12:26:28 I think it was #| |# 12:26:35 haven't used them, I think, ever 12:28:50 justinmcp [quassel@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:3fac] has joined #lisp 12:28:54 Neptu: there are the #+/#- reader macros that allow you to "comment out" whole s-expressions without resorting to block comments 12:29:11 Neptu: #+(or) (foo) - would "comment out" (foo) 12:29:19 clhs #+ 12:29:20 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhq.htm 12:30:49 H4ns, thanks! 12:31:14 -!- Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:31:32 -!- groovy2shoes [~cory@unaffiliated/groovebot] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 12:31:42 Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 12:33:12 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:39:37 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-181-109-90.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 12:41:04 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:41:53 snearch [~snearch@brln-4dba79b6.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 12:43:14 casion [~AdmiralBu@pool-71-99-141-240.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:43:40 -!- SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-181-109-90.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:45:50 sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has joined #lisp 12:46:29 loke_erc [~user@bb119-74-80-38.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 12:46:42 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:47:32 FareWell [fare@nat/google/x-hsxuernqsvjkbiwp] has joined #lisp 12:48:42 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:49:21 -!- antgreen [~green@dsl-209-90-147-198.tor.primus.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:49:28 xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-61-55.w92-146.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:50:48 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 12:50:49 m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.228.255] has joined #lisp 12:54:15 seangrove [~user@125.142.7.125] has joined #lisp 12:54:15 oticat` [~oticat@36-229-250-108.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 12:57:42 dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-32-223.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:58:49 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:59:21 cffi structures warning are annoying, 9 style warnings just for a single instance 13:00:05 -!- seangrove [~user@125.142.7.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:05:16 ok, nine just comes from inlined functions, it's just 2 ordinarily 13:05:26 though, 2 is still more than i'm willing to see 13:05:39 linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177917089.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 13:06:58 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:07:24 *stassats* tries to spot the difference between mem-aptr and mem-ref 13:09:12 whoever thought that it's a great idea to have three functions named mem-aref, mem-ref and mem-aptr 13:09:28 stassats: mem-aptr is a mem-ref with an offset, isn't it? 13:09:39 SKC [~shimoco@bzq-79-181-109-90.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 13:11:36 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:13:00 when used with structures, the differences appears to be: aptr's offset is in sizeof type, and mem-ref's offset is in bytes 13:13:18 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:13:41 TristamWrk [~tristamwr@gray-47.dynamic2.rpi.edu] has joined #lisp 13:13:41 -!- tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-181-109-90.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:13:50 -!- TristamWrk [~tristamwr@gray-47.dynamic2.rpi.edu] has quit [Changing host] 13:13:50 TristamWrk [~tristamwr@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has joined #lisp 13:14:04 now, when used with, say, :int, the same difference is between mem-aref and mem-ref 13:14:27 very fascinating stuff 13:14:44 -!- snearch [~snearch@brln-4dba79b6.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 13:15:36 now, for structs and :int, mem-aptr is (cffi-sys:inc-pointer pointer (* offset size-of-type)) 13:16:06 mem-ref for structs is (cffi-sys:inc-pointer pointer offset) but (sb-sys:signed-sap-ref-32 pointer offset) for ints 13:18:42 and mem-aref for structs is (cffi-sys:inc-pointer pointer (* i size)) and (SB-SYS:SIGNED-SAP-REF-32 pointer (* I 4)) for ints 13:20:14 *stassats* tries to wrap his head around the said facts 13:22:12 pavelpenev [~quassel@194.141.47.12] has joined #lisp 13:25:17 Every time I have to use CFFI my head starts spinning 13:25:28 you have no idea how long it took me to get CL-GSS right 13:25:57 *stassats* senses there's mem-ptr missing, for a complete symmetry 13:29:00 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 13:29:42 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 13:30:47 -!- MoALTz__ is now known as MoALTz 13:32:40 so, mem-aref is for arrays, mem-aptr is for arrays, but returns the pointer to the array cell (which is the same thing if it's a structure) 13:32:46 and mem-ref is for arbitrary memory references 13:33:05 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:34:34 and if it's a (:pointer (:struct ...)), then mem-aref dereferences that pointer, and mem-aptr does not 13:34:51 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:35:58 kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 13:35:59 madnificent [~madnifice@static.146.73.9.176.clients.your-server.de] has joined #lisp 13:38:31 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:38:40 Plihuo [~Plihuo@2001:da8:4003:2534:4584:d5a:38b6:aad1] has joined #lisp 13:39:42 tsetumel_ [~shimoco@bzq-79-181-109-90.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 13:41:21 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 13:41:23 *stassats* tried to solve it nicely, instead of (defcstruct |struct Name| ..), just define Name and then use (:struct Name) 13:41:42 clox [~user@rrcs-208-125-109-116.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:41:44 no dice, can't define (defcstruct class ...) or (defcstruct type ...) 13:41:57 -!- galdor_ is now known as galdor