09:34:43 ccl-logbot [~ccl-logbo@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 09:34:43 09:34:43 -!- names: ccl-logbot wbooze gravicappa treyka ivan-kanis n1tn4tsn0k nha two- adhoc MrBusiness jpanest Beetny [SLB] Jeanne-Kamikaze ASau dsp_ Guthur jewel rly sanjoyd LaPingvino theos kilon jasox Fullmoon nikodemus Jordan_U Demosthenes benny FreeArtMan joast scombinator ehu Ralith setheus c_arenz mishoo prxq CrazyThinker Phoodus mrSpec lindes sdemarre miql dtw prip les zmyrgel dan64 homie bobbysmith007 edgar-rft geek billitch teggi lemoinem Guest32898 Spion clintm 09:34:43 -!- names: kami`` schmx Nisstyre Nauntilus ianmcorvidae neoesque blackwolf sykopomp robot-beethoven ft jsnell fmu neena |42| Quadrescence axion daniel___ tali713 EarlGray^^ s0ber lolsuper_ gffa tomodo minion shachaf antifuchs am0c Kynes` cpt_nemo dstatyvka callen robonyankitty gabot kpreid eli specbot BigHugeDog MoALTz naiv loke wildnux kennyd rgc dim stassats` CrazyEddy bbirec ezakimak daedric dotemacs howeyc __main__ drdo dryman nowhere_man mcox Khisanth EyesIsServer 09:34:43 -!- names: angavrilov superflit SpitfireWP slyrus pchrist ``Erik McMAGIC--Copy SeanTAllen rpgsimmaster alvis diginet Lone_Wanderer Inode Amadiro billstclair dmiles_afk madnificent SHODAN TristamWrk cyphase oGMo shifty easye zxq9 _root_ DrForr vhost- koisoke cataska anonus PECCU espadrine cmm LAMMJohnson flip214 Kryztof rvchangue karswell twopi samebchase foocraft jiacobucci Modius kanru` ace4016 sellout abeaumont yroeht Jasko tritchey nialo- docAvid jjkola chturne 09:34:43 -!- names: Posterdati hugod rson 18VAAD1KD 36DAA2WSX gkeith_lt reb newcup pjb ski_ Zhivago boyscared BrianRice rtoym sigjuice Axioplase_ p_l em maxm- hyoyoung srcerer anthracite literal z0d REPLeffect monotux felideon acieroid msmith1 bpg araujo sawjig a7p teiresias kleppari johs Borbus mon_key jlaire Subfusc izz_ pkhuong otwieracz guaqua egn Tordek_ hefner Vivitron nitro_idiot bzzbzz Zephyrus mikaelj setmeaway DGASAU tdubellz vpit3833 Odin- __class__ ered cmatei adeht 09:34:43 -!- names: borodon cYmen daimrod TheMoonMaster mgodshall rootzlevel Praise bieber MrTapyr aperture lnostdal dkasak SaidinWoT tessier peterhil November blitz_ k9quaint lonstein H4ns arbscht jeekl scharan tycho ivan\ r_takaishi herbieB keltvek dfox drysdam_ theBlackDragon jayne djinni` AntiSpamMeta YokYok gz fe[nl]ix Patzy Bugson jakky parabolize jasond wccoder tvaalen Obfuscate aerique jaimef finnrobi xvilka ve enn_ antoszka conntrack OliverUv macrobat freiksenet wyan 09:34:43 -!- names: clog gemelen stepnem rabite vsync guther housel Nshag ChibaPet timb jerQ rdd oconnore froggey devhost kaol Munksgaa1d arnsholt g0 brendyn e__krappi kanru yan_ redline6561 dlowe ArmyOfBruce sbryant pokes jrockway joshe ejohnson ecraven Tristam dnm pok PissedNumlock BlastHardcheese Kovensky _stink_ Yahovah MikeSeth _3b___ quasisan1 Utkarsh_ yeltzooo _tca cmbntr krl Fade j_king The_third_man Mandus gensym ozzloy rotty luis nuba nicdev_ r126f foom ramus felipe 09:34:43 -!- names: |3b| eMBee sepi Neronus ineiros sav basho__ scode mal Xof_ limetree jasom tomaw ec Yamazaki-kun df_ galdor aoh cow-orker kloeri cods qsun sshirokov Jabberwockey Bucciarati xristos mtd 09:36:43 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:40:01 Beetny` [~Beetny@ppp14-2-40-13.lns21.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 09:40:11 stlifey [~stlifey@116.26.27.25] has joined #lisp 09:40:41 arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has joined #lisp 09:42:36 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.115.235] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:43:49 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp14-2-40-13.lns21.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:46:56 vantage|home [~vantage@82.41-242-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 09:49:57 -!- mcox [~user@203-206-28-125.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:50:39 my github fork has been tweaked. That commit is no longer relevant. New commit created with an unrelated change, and pull request sent. :) 09:52:42 -!- clintm [~clintm@c-98-232-33-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: clintm] 09:54:58 lindes: merged, thanks! 09:55:47 oh, haha, is that you? :) 09:56:19 lindes: i'm the maintainer of edi's libraries while he's busy with other stuff. 09:56:45 Edi is so cool he has other people writing his libraries 09:57:11 ahh, cool. Ooh, and I see you're in Berlin. If you'd like to meet up sometime, I'd enjoy that. I'm in Dresden at the moment, and planning to head in the opposite direction, but I expect to be back in Berlin at some point, maybe late in the month. :) 09:57:51 *lindes* would enjoy meeting some other lispers in person. 09:58:04 lindes: our next meeting is on tuesday, but we have one monthly or bi-monthly. make sure you follow planet_lisp if you're on twitter. 09:58:08 stassats`: Yeah, I need to do that. :) 09:58:10 lindes: there is the ELS 09:58:15 in Croatia this year 09:58:46 European Lisp Symposium (ELS) 09:59:06 H4ns: checking planet_lisp now... won't make this month (obviously, per prior statement), but I think I'll still be around in May! 09:59:13 sn0rri [~sn0rri@62.169.219.149] has joined #lisp 10:01:35 H4ns: Maybe you can figure out how to get them on the "Lisp User Group Meetings" google calendar, too. 10:01:47 Guthur: ooh, looking at that, too. :) 10:04:12 vantage|2 [~vantage@82.41-242-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 10:05:18 Guthur: Hmmm... Can I justify the expense... I'm in a very low-spending time of my life... But it looks good, and it's soon! 10:05:37 hitch hike! 10:06:00 lindes: Croatia seems quite reasonable, cost wise 10:06:22 but I think you may have missed the early registration so the conference would be more costly 10:06:38 and crash it 10:06:46 sleep in a tent 10:06:52 -!- LAMMJohnson [~JA@cpc3-nrwh9-2-0-cust336.4-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:07:30 early registaration ends at 15 10:08:23 stassats`: I mostly do CouchSurfing for that side of things. Think it's easy to crash? :) 10:08:53 being a lisp rock-star might help 10:09:23 *lindes* highly doubts I'm at that level yet. :) 10:09:31 if you can find someone to share then there are some very cheap holiday apartments 10:09:38 *lindes* thinks the idea of ever being at that level is probably dubious, at best. :) 10:09:58 well, then thing about registering before 15, save 40  10:10:05 Guthur: it's the registration fee itself that's off-putting to me. I'll find lodging easily enough, I suspect. :) 10:10:14 lindes: rock-star is more about attitude than level :) 10:10:20 s/thing/think/ 10:10:29 stassats`: I'm thinking! :) 10:10:51 H4ns: snort cocaine, go backstage with groupies and write lisp code under LSD? 10:11:03 I have accommodation for 5 nights at £60, but I'm sharing with 3 others 10:11:22 stassats`: groupies tend to be scarce resource, but yes for the rest 10:11:23 dangit, I'm trying to figure out where I found that calendar... so I can figure out how to get entries added to it, so I can have y'all put these things on there. :) 10:11:50 H4ns: still dubious. ;) 10:12:09 H4ns: but that does get me a little closer, *some of the time*. ;) 10:12:41 the calendar is here, by the way: https://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=pm55j8kg30dnm54ib2if9fuocc@group.calendar.google.com 10:13:01 in case others want to add it. But I'm having trouble finding the source of it. 10:13:16 lindes: Xach maintains it 10:13:39 lindes: are you a student? 10:15:47 stassats`: I'm going to go with yes. :) 10:16:00 it's even cheaper for students 10:16:35 stassats`: I do frequently succeed at getting student prices for things. Even that is more expense than I usually like to spend, but... I think I might go for it. 10:16:48 superflit_ [~superflit@75-171-198-88.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 10:16:52 stassats`: the deadline for that price is also later. :) 10:17:09 H4ns: Ahh, OK, cool. Well, get the Berlin meetings on there, please. :) 10:17:44 well, you can hunt lisp people at the gate and don't enter the premises 10:18:56 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@d54C06DE6.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:18:56 -!- superflit [~superflit@75-171-248-45.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:18:56 -!- superflit_ is now known as superflit 10:19:10 -!- vantage|2 [~vantage@82.41-242-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Quit: Ik ga weg] 10:19:10 What's going on? 10:19:56 Some sort of lisp meet up? 10:20:11 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:20:40 scombinator: http://european-lisp-symposium.org/ 10:20:53 also, a Berlin lispers meetup. 10:21:08 both of which I'm (highly) interested in. 10:22:48 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 10:23:15 too much travel for me 10:24:32 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-130-86.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:24:36 wbooze_ [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-130-86.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:25:55 silenius [~silenius@i59F71BD6.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 10:27:33 scombinator: bummer. Well, it's not quite where I'd been planning to go, but I think I could maybe do it. 10:30:29 -!- Jordan_U [~jordan@216.57.70.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:31:35 m7w [~chatzilla@31.24.92.30] has joined #lisp 10:31:45 Zadar looks really nice actually 10:32:06 I'm looking forward to just spending some time there as well 10:32:11 Yeah, I'm gonna start trying to plan my trip now. :) 10:32:26 Jordan_U [~jordan@216.57.70.194] has joined #lisp 10:32:33 and... just hope that it'll be worth the expense, I guess. Or something. :) 10:35:59 Yuuhi [benni@p54839168.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:36:09 -!- jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.136] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:38:22 -!- scombinator [~user@121-73-59-25.cable.telstraclear.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:38:39 scombinator [~user@121-73-59-25.cable.telstraclear.net] has joined #lisp 10:39:33 -!- rgc [~user@173.Red-79-158-82.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:40:01 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@d54C06DE6.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 10:43:28 sacho [~sacho@92-247-208-87.spectrumnet.bg] has joined #lisp 10:43:40 -!- Jordan_U [~jordan@216.57.70.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:45:23 Jordan_U [~jordan@216.57.70.194] has joined #lisp 10:49:19 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@d54C06DE6.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:51:14 gaidal [~gaidal@h164n1-m-sp-d4.ias.bredband.telia.com] has joined #lisp 10:51:49 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:52:15 gilligan_ [~gilligan_@host-089-207-254-219.vipri.net] has joined #lisp 10:54:51 snearch [~snearch@f053009220.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:57:05 -!- gilligan_ [~gilligan_@host-089-207-254-219.vipri.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:01:00 MoALTz_ [~no@31.185.58.75] has joined #lisp 11:03:11 gilligan_ [~gilligan_@host-089-207-254-219.vipri.net] has joined #lisp 11:03:34 -!- vantage|home [~vantage@82.41-242-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:03:58 -!- MoALTz [~no@87.112.232.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:04:22 -!- zmyrgel [~user@dsl-lprbrasgw1-fe91fa00-218.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:12:35 etfb [~user@59.167.204.86] has joined #lisp 11:14:37 I'm playing around with Quicklisp. I'd like to see how I go writing something that has dialog boxes, forms, windows and so on, to work in Ubuntu Linux. I would welcome recommendations for a toolkit that has good documentation and works well out of the box. Any suggestions? 11:14:55 etfb: commonqt 11:17:56 stassats`: Trying that now. Thanks. 11:19:08 Hmmm. Didn't work. Need to check my dependencies; I thought QL would handle that, but I guess not. 11:19:36 you guessed right 11:19:59 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-035.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 11:20:54 etfb: install libsmokeqt4-dev 11:21:28 and qmake 11:21:59 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:22:04 Handled the Lisp deps quite well of course, so I can't complain. I half wondered how it would handle system deps if it did at all. 11:22:20 c_arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 11:24:04 So what's the usual way of development of a UI? Define it in code, Petzold style, or design it with a separate program and save the definition in some format like XML? 11:25:39 Ah, nicely done. (ql:quickload "qt") reports success. Now to go hunting for a "Hello World" tutorial. 11:25:59 it's included 11:26:18 (ql:quickload 'qt-tutorial) 11:27:41 the rest is just Qt 11:28:46 OK, there's a risk that QL may start to seriously impress me at this rate... 11:29:31 QL doesn't do anything here 11:30:43 Well, having the tutorials included is a very friendly option. Not the "here's a gigabyte of stuff, you're on your own" attitude I'm used to elsewhere. 11:31:02 it's not QL 11:31:51 etfb: if/when I ever write the package manager I've been dreaming about for a decade or so, then your mind will really be blown. ;) ;) 11:32:00 *lindes* needs to JFDI on that. 11:32:31 -!- Beetny` [~Beetny@ppp14-2-40-13.lns21.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:32:58 lindes: I believe there are two kinds of Lisp programmer: the ones who have the ultimate package manager all plotted out in their heads, and the ones who have never used Lisp. 11:33:42 i don't fit the either category 11:37:11 Perhaps there's a third kind: the ones who have grown beyond the dissatisfaction with mere mortal concerns, and have attained a new kind of Nirvana. 11:37:37 alright then 11:39:51 Interesting. The tutorial demo works, though it did some odd things (didn't return control to the REPL after I quit) but it's all very Petzoldian - event loops, callbacks and so on. Intriguing, nonetheless. 11:40:05 it's qt 11:40:17 Yes, it is... 11:40:29 qt now has qml 11:40:35 etfb: if you want something different, you could look at clim 11:40:41 -!- lindes [~user@p4FF1C64A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:40:42 chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-58-165-252-158.lns1.civ.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 11:40:43 splittist [b2c6684a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.198.104.74] has joined #lisp 11:40:54 with javascript and all, but i don't really see how it fits CL well 11:41:09 morning 11:41:24 H4ns: Ah, I've heard of that. I remember it being dead or in a coma a few years ago. Am I misremembering, or has it had a new lease on life since? 11:41:53 it didn't 11:41:58 stassats`: Having the fine-grained control is a Good Thing. I hope to have time to learn it more. 11:44:11 -!- Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:44:27 Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 11:46:32 -!- FreeArtMan [~fam@93.177.213.54] has quit [Quit: Out of this 3D] 11:47:15 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 11:48:41 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 11:52:27 -!- etfb [~user@59.167.204.86] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 11:54:36 -!- Jordan_U [~jordan@216.57.70.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:56:10 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:56:21 Jordan_U [~jordan@216.57.70.194] has joined #lisp 11:57:54 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:00:02 jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.136] has joined #lisp 12:04:53 -!- silenius [~silenius@i59F71BD6.versanet.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:06:45 *Xach* yawns, waves! 12:07:34 Xach: hi! could you enter the berlin lisp meeting on tuesday to the cl calendar, please? 12:10:35 Ok! I thought I did, I must have imagined/dreamed it 12:10:55 H4ns: would you like access to add it in the future so you don't have to wait for me? 12:12:04 springz [~springz@115.174.39.188] has joined #lisp 12:12:43 if so, let me know your preferred google login email 12:12:56 Xach: sure, hans.huebner@gmail.com it is 12:18:05 zbigniew [~zb@ipv6.3e8.org] has joined #lisp 12:18:21 nialo`` [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 12:22:20 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 12:22:42 -!- tomodo [~tomodo@gateway/tor-sasl/tomodo] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 12:35:26 albacker [~eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has joined #lisp 12:36:12 To be quicklisp friendly, I must first be asdf-friendly, yes? 12:37:37 obviously 12:37:59 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-035.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:39:26 scombinator: yes 12:39:47 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-024.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 12:40:01 helichopter [~austin@ool-4577ba80.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 12:40:03 -!- docAvid [~user@74-94-233-157-Michigan.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:41:00 jollyG [~JollyG@cpe-075-176-001-037.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:41:26 -!- albacker [~eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:42:52 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.190.39.231] has joined #lisp 12:45:10 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:46:20 pnq [~nick@AC816EA5.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 12:48:54 antgreen [~user@CPE0021910f07ac-CM0019477f82fc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 12:49:19 DukePatience [~patience@CPE-121-218-47-30.lnse4.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 12:49:28 Sup guys 12:49:45 Is there a destructive eqv. to subseq, or will I have to write one? 12:50:20 setf subseq 12:50:53 Nah 12:50:58 then no 12:51:02 kilon_alios [~kilon@athedsl-384836.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 12:51:03 subseq isn't destructive =( 12:51:03 -!- antgreen [~user@CPE0021910f07ac-CM0019477f82fc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:51:10 and it doesn't make much sense for vectors 12:51:21 DukePatience: why do you need it to be destructive? 12:51:46 antgreen [~user@CPE0021910f07ac-CM0019477f82fc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 12:52:13 So I can go (setf (aref (subseq *some-vector* num1 num2) 3) some-new-value) 12:52:28 Erm 12:52:34 Because 12:52:40 use displaced array 12:52:49 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 12:52:54 don't use displaced arrayes 12:52:55 I'm too lazy to rewrite my code to make it work non-destructively 12:52:56 arrays 12:53:42 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-319820.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:53:42 (So I can do something in 1 line that will otherwise take 30) 12:53:44 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@h164n1-m-sp-d4.ias.bredband.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:54:02 30 lines to add 3 to num1? 12:54:20 you must have a very narrow display 12:54:30 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-137-248.w90-26.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:54:36 I'm being a bad programmer 12:54:48 that's not a good excuse 12:54:52 Because I don't care about the consequences 12:55:23 Not to mention that you talk too much. 12:55:34 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-27-220.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:55:46 ?? Not nice Zhivago 12:56:07 DukePatience: his role is not "mr. nice" 12:56:54 Righteo, Ima not pick a fight over it 12:57:24 -!- dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 12:58:13 phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 12:58:17 Xach: do you have symbol mappings for l1sp.org? 12:58:40 stassats`: yes 12:58:43 specbot uses some bizarre contraptions to generate symbol mappings on each load 12:59:15 vantage|home [~vantage@82.41-242-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 12:59:16 Xach: where can i snatch them? 12:59:37 https://github.com/xach/l1sp-org/blob/master/redirects/cl.txt 12:59:55 DukePatience: seriously man, ignore the chitchat, its just bored people trying to confuse you... I assume you have some big array, and want to pass chunks of it around for processing, so you don't have to carry offsets with you. Thats what displaced arrays are for http://paste.lisp.org/display/128829 13:00:09 Xach: it even has glossary, cool 13:00:44 i'll try to bolt it down to specbot 13:00:53 DukePatience: alexandria has similar function I think.. If you need performance, there is a "with-array-data" macro you can steal from babel library 13:01:22 that will efficiently setup iteration over the displaced array for all major implementations 13:03:17 maxm-: You are a hero good sir. thank's a lot. 13:04:30 just use start and end indexes, like all sequence functions in CL do 13:06:32 -!- EarlGray^^ [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:09:08 (because it's fast and easily composable) 13:11:04 albacker [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 13:11:04 -!- albacker [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Changing host] 13:11:04 albacker [~eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has joined #lisp 13:13:02 EarlGray [~mitra@despairing-occident.volia.net] has joined #lisp 13:13:29 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 13:14:07 -!- specbot [~specbot@pppoe.178-66-44-50.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:14:08 -!- minion [~minion@pppoe.178-66-44-50.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:16:42 specbot [~specbot@pppoe.178-66-44-50.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 13:17:12 minion [~minion@pppoe.178-66-44-50.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 13:20:23 Xach: as i gathered, l1sp.org doesn't understand W-O-T-S? 13:22:58 http://l1sp.org/search/w-o-t-s 13:23:15 ok 13:24:34 -!- Nauntilus [~NickServ@ip68-231-176-93.tc.ph.cox.net] has quit [Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )] 13:24:47 -!- springz [~springz@115.174.39.188] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:31:15 gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:31:40 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:32:16 -!- edgar-rft [~user@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:33:09 stassats`: does specbot still have the LOOP of DOOM? 13:33:34 kilon [~kilon@athedsl-401902.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 13:33:36 yes 13:33:48 *Xach* has a patch for that 13:34:01 i want to have just static files 13:34:18 who will generate the statics? 13:34:45 well, i'll steal some from you, some specs are already static 13:35:01 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:35:08 and others i will just generate by the current code 13:35:28 -!- kilon_alios [~kilon@athedsl-384836.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:35:44 and make adding new specs as easy as just adding new files into a directory 13:36:23 -!- pnq [~nick@AC816EA5.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 13:36:26 clim 13:36:34 clim is rad? 13:36:38 ok, phew 13:37:07 ah? 13:37:15 Nisstyre [~yours@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net] has joined #lisp 13:38:28 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:38:55 ngz [~user@198.111.193.77.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 13:39:19 pnq [~nick@AC816EA5.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 13:40:43 dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has joined #lisp 13:40:46 -!- specbot [~specbot@pppoe.178-66-44-50.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:41:31 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 13:42:25 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 13:43:45 -!- pnq [~nick@AC816EA5.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:44:10 gabnet [~gabnet@ACaen-257-1-93-192.w86-220.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:44:29 -!- nialo`` [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 13:45:30 pnq [~nick@AC816EA5.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 13:47:36 for bored people, write function that given a list of slots, returns function that recursively extract slot values from clos instances.. Ie (funcall (make-obj-tree-extractor '(a b c)) obj) should be equivalent of (slot-value (slot-value (slot-value obj 'a) 'b) 'c) 13:48:17 my final solution is elegant 1 liner 13:51:28 Xach: why do you have an #\" entry? 13:54:49 maxm-: (reduce #'slot-value slots :initial-value instance)? 13:55:01 yup 13:55:08 next time, come up with something harder 13:55:44 have no time to invent problems, just posted the one that occured naturally in the code 13:57:09 n1nt4tsn0k|1 [~nitnatsno@88.205.227.181] has joined #lisp 13:58:55 Xach: your "clim" broke specbot! 13:59:45 -!- pnq [~nick@AC816EA5.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:00:22 -!- n1tn4tsn0k [~nitnatsno@88.205.227.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:00:44 here is another one, don't have solution and won't seek one since its for a macro, but a more elegant way of writing (let ((head (butlast list)) (tail (last list)))).. I half expect Xach to know an obscure function that returns these as two values 14:00:50 specbot [~specbot@pppoe.178-66-44-50.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 14:01:19 there's no 14:01:23 c0atz1n [~emanuel@189.224.32.4] has joined #lisp 14:01:27 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053009220.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 14:01:30 pnq [~nick@AC816EA5.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 14:03:03 maxm-: (let* ((tail (last list)) (head (ldiff list tail))))))) 14:03:12 unless you count (let ((last what xach said) as better 14:03:29 nicer if you have more than one in the tail 14:03:50 well made me lookup ldiff 14:03:55 RomyRomy [~stickycak@207.239.107.3] has joined #lisp 14:04:06 time now for some nreconc action 14:07:20 *|42|* wonders what does a lisp programmer do when he retires 14:07:51 |42|: old lisp programmers never retire, they just get garbage collected when nobody references them any more. 14:08:14 <|42|> Xach: good one 14:08:58 Xach: so, what's the meaning of #\" term? 14:09:25 zeissoctopus [~zeissocto@183178133120.ctinets.com] has joined #lisp 14:09:26 fukushima [~fukushima@z1.61-193-209.ppp.wakwak.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:09:33 or \ is an escape? 14:10:17 apparently so 14:11:27 -!- pnq [~nick@AC816EA5.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:13:02 Xach: next then, why does it have ~"? 14:13:05 ~" 14:13:40 and ~\ instead of ~/ ? 14:13:49 FreeArtMan [~fam@93.177.213.54] has joined #lisp 14:13:57 pnq [~nick@AC816EA5.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 14:14:20 not instead, but in addition 14:15:45 pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has joined #lisp 14:16:53 NFI 14:18:44 -!- pnq [~nick@AC816EA5.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:21:02 pnq [~nick@AC816EA5.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 14:23:58 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181241043.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:25:21 Skola [~bas@5352A3FB.cm-6-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #lisp 14:26:14 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181241043.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 14:27:11 -!- sacho [~sacho@92-247-208-87.spectrumnet.bg] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:32:34 -!- specbot [~specbot@pppoe.178-66-44-50.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:32:55 -!- minion [~minion@pppoe.178-66-44-50.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:33:23 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:33:32 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:33:49 sacho [~sacho@92-247-208-87.spectrumnet.bg] has joined #lisp 14:36:06 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-99-233.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:36:12 Hi 14:36:46 I just got a weird error when calling a function after save-lisp-and-die (it's the top-level of the saved executable) 14:37:17 http://paste.lisp.org/display/128830 14:37:46 -!- nowhereman is now known as nowhere_man 14:38:03 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 14:38:47 I had quickloaded https://github.com/kephas/File-tools 14:38:59 Is there an alternative to HTML-TEMPLATE out there? 14:39:04 and made the executable with (save-lisp-and-die "procmail-nothos" :toplevel (lambda () (thierry-technologies.com/2012/04/file-tools::procmail-files "/home/pierre/Mail/IN-A-Nothos/")) :executable t) 14:39:04 nowhere_man: have you tried to call that function before saving a core? 14:39:07 loke: i think i've seen a few 14:39:10 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:39:14 pkhuong: yeah, worked like a charm 14:39:25 I've been using it for the last several months, and while it's good, it's quite limiting and I need something more flexible. 14:39:43 nowhere_man: and, from the same image, you s-l-a-d, and got this different error? 14:39:47 I'm starting a new project, and I would like to use something better. 14:40:04 write a new one 14:40:14 I was fussing about with generating html and found http://trapm.com/vana-templating-an-utterly-sensible-templatin 14:40:14 stassats: I was just about to 14:40:19 ainm [~ainm@161.Red-83-33-83.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:40:30 pkhuong: wait, it worked before, now I re-quickloaded and tried, and it doesn't work 14:40:49 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 14:40:55 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:41:16 nowhere_man: null-alien is in your package instead of (iirc) CFFI. Check your :use. 14:41:19 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.148.156] has joined #lisp 14:41:32 pnathan: Interesting, although it seems to be more like a way of generating html from a sexp 14:41:48 ah, no it's sb-ext. 14:42:10 nowhere_man: CL-USER typically uses more packages than just CL. 14:43:22 -!- sn0rri [~sn0rri@62.169.219.149] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 14:45:36 shizzy0 [~user@c-24-91-161-73.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:45:46 pkhuong: yeah, I had to qualify sb-alien:null-alien and sb-ext:run-program 14:50:41 -!- nha [~prefect@dhcp-15-224.math.tu-berlin.de] has quit [Quit: How many people can read hex if only you and dead people can read hex?] 14:50:48 khaliG [~khali@203.171.126.201.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has joined #lisp 14:52:21 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@86.Red-88-11-22.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:52:45 -!- chu [~mathew.ba@CPE-58-165-252-158.lns1.civ.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:56:47 gridaphobe [~gridaphob@cpe-74-68-151-24.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:03:23 Is there an implementation of a non-locking thread-safe hash table? 15:04:34 CCL has one, i believe 15:04:48 Hmm 15:04:54 Nothing cross-platform? 15:04:59 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@86.Red-88-11-22.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:05:23 -!- pnq [~nick@AC816EA5.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:07:02 pnathan: the only problem with his approach, is that it will cons tons, since every inner element is converting stuff to string, then that string gets interpolated into its parent (via format) and so on 15:07:09 loke: IIRC threading itself is implementation-dependent 15:07:20 pnq [~nick@AC816EA5.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 15:07:24 for very deep structures, and with loops inside, a simple page can cons megabytes of stuff 15:08:21 so it will work for a blog with 100 hits a day, but if you get hit by some serious load, imho will crumble spectacularly 15:08:57 loke: what are you looking for in a template system? 15:08:58 actually it can be fixed by using (formatter) macro probably 15:09:22 *stassats* noticed for the first time that CLHS is subtitled "The very definition of class." 15:09:44 stassats: one of the few humorous bits 15:10:24 when I was checking clhs info thing sources, I found the comment/chatter more interesting then actual definitions 15:10:42 ie it actually shows the evolution and thought process and cons and pros of how something came to be 15:14:31 maxm-: the tex sources have some great stuff 15:16:54 Xach: well... 15:17:19 Xach: I'm looking for something similar to HTML-TEMPLATE, although I'd like a bit more flexibility (and a less ugly syntax) 15:18:22 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.213.162] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 15:21:10 kushal [~kdas@114.143.162.87] has joined #lisp 15:21:10 -!- kushal [~kdas@114.143.162.87] has quit [Changing host] 15:21:10 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 15:24:26 kpreid [~kpreid@Lark.price.clarkson.edu] has joined #lisp 15:25:52 impulse32 [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176314164.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 15:27:31 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.50.122] has joined #lisp 15:27:31 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.50.122] has quit [Changing host] 15:27:31 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 15:27:33 kennyd [~kennyd@93-136-133-22.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 15:30:03 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:34:51 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@87.247.50.122] has joined #lisp 15:34:51 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Disconnected by services] 15:34:54 -!- attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 15:34:55 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.50.122] has quit [Changing host] 15:34:55 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 15:35:20 eataix [~eataix@unaffiliated/eataix] has joined #lisp 15:35:57 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 15:38:22 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:38:44 kennyd- [~sile@93-136-133-22.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 15:40:50 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-5-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:41:13 -!- Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:41:29 Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 15:42:19 -!- FreeArtMan [~fam@93.177.213.54] has quit [Quit: Out of this 3D] 15:45:17 zmv [~zmv@186.204.144.184] has joined #lisp 15:45:34 -!- treyka [~treyka@83.101.5.51] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:48:47 paradoja [~paradoja@acceso-cmp174-159.lpa.idec.net] has joined #lisp 15:49:46 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-5-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 15:51:33 thaum [~arun@122.179.96.23] has joined #lisp 15:52:55 which one is the best Gtk binding available ? 15:53:15 GTK+3 15:53:25 no gtk3 binding 15:53:29 jlongster [~user@pool-96-253-85-90.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:54:16 nialo` [~nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 15:54:52 fe[nl]ix, oh ok, is there any particular tool kit people use to develop GUI apps ? 15:54:58 * toolkit 15:55:55 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 15:57:20 -!- nialo- [nialo@ool-182d5684.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:58:08 tensorpudding [~michael@99.56.161.121] has joined #lisp 15:59:08 kushal: the few lispers who develop GUIs seem to use CAPI and Lispworks 15:59:24 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 16:00:19 i use commonqt 16:02:03 commonqt brooklyn represents.. best toolkit in da hood yo 16:02:21 stassats, that I remember :) 16:02:29 fe[nl]ix, ok 16:02:42 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:03:42 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.190.39.231] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 16:06:32 -!- zeissoctopus [~zeissocto@183178133120.ctinets.com] has quit [Quit: ] 16:06:57 -!- pnq [~nick@AC816EA5.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:07:40 egnarts-ms [~smsmfk@20-221-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 16:08:43 specbot [~specbot@pppoe.178-66-12-36.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 16:09:02 clhs cons 16:09:03 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_cons.htm 16:09:23 new spec format works, good 16:09:33 now to convert the rest of specs to it 16:10:19 -!- albacker [~eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:11:50 mope [~mope@02da15a3.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 16:12:46 -!- mope [~mope@02da15a3.bb.sky.com] has left #lisp 16:14:05 -!- Skola [~bas@5352A3FB.cm-6-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:14:39 Hey guys, I'm trying to organise a Emacs Conf, so I put up this site to collect ideas what people might want to see/do: http://emacsconf.herokuapp.com/ thanks :) 16:15:56 i want to see a talk titled "How to shut up those VIM guys" 16:16:21 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 16:16:38 paul0 [~user@189.115.63.118] has joined #lisp 16:17:41 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@d54C06DE6.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 16:18:39 -!- jlongster [~user@pool-96-253-85-90.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:20:37 clhs 11.1.2.1.2.1 16:20:37 Some Exceptions to Constraints on the COMMON-LISP Package for Conforming Programs: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/11_ababa.htm 16:20:54 and a new user-visible feature 16:21:04 (feedback welcome) 16:21:38 stassats: first impression: nice 16:22:18 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:22:29 such titles can be added to any terms, but so far it only makes sense for chapters 16:22:45 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 16:23:49 and i need to automate scrapping of the titles for the rest of the features 16:23:49 -!- scombinator [~user@121-73-59-25.cable.telstraclear.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:23:59 s/features/chapters/ 16:25:54 -!- RomyRomy [~stickycak@207.239.107.3] has quit [Quit: RomyRomy] 16:28:37 -!- sacho [~sacho@92-247-208-87.spectrumnet.bg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:28:48 -!- gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [] 16:28:57 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:30:57 apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:31:03 -!- khaliG [~khali@203.171.126.201.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:31:45 stassats: hm, that might be hard. One way of doing it is to pitch Emacs as a gateway drug into further programming 16:34:12 -!- geek [~geek@unaffiliated/geek] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:35:14 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #lisp 16:35:23 -!- espadrine [~thaddee_t@acces2373.res.insa-lyon.fr] has left #lisp 16:35:41 stassats: can users still define words for minion? 16:35:57 oh. no minion? 16:36:19 *maxm-* wound be interested too 16:36:45 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@116.26.27.25] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:36:52 anyways, now in html, with anchors: http://random-state.net/files/nikodemus-cl-faq.html 16:37:15 http://random-state.net/files/nikodemus-cl-faq.html#are-there-any-common-pitfalls-i-should-avoid is the one you want to keep handy :) 16:37:21 clhs 7.1 16:37:22 Object Creation and Initialization: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/07_a.htm 16:37:40 nikodemus: minion is unchanged so far 16:38:04 created titles for all chapters 16:38:37 clhs Object Creation 16:38:55 doesn't do that 16:39:04 would be nifty :) 16:39:16 titles are usually too long to remember 16:39:32 case-insensitive prefixes? 16:39:50 OC&I? 16:39:53 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@m992c36d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:40:16 Demosthenes [~demo@m992c36d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 16:40:18 <|3b|> closest edit distance at word level? 16:40:27 thats why I kind of miss old calc bot, all of the above was wrapped into single functionality, key => text lookup, but it had all the niftyness.. ie calc *create*obj* would have repsonded with list of terms matching that 16:40:56 and clhs could have been implemented as "calc clhs.name blah blah blah url or definition", with initial import automated 16:41:01 i'm thinking about adding typo correction to specbot 16:41:16 maxm-: who cares? 16:41:42 -!- specbot [~specbot@pppoe.178-66-12-36.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:42:11 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 16:42:51 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-182-11.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:42:59 -!- gabnet [~gabnet@ACaen-257-1-93-192.w86-220.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 16:43:57 stassats: well, you obviously don't. 16:43:58 -!- wbooze_ [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-130-86.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:45:03 my point was that IMHO architecture of a bot where functionality is split up into modules, and changing each one requires coding, is inferior to a more generalized one, where ppl can add stuff 16:45:19 -!- vantage|home [~vantage@82.41-242-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Quit: Ik ga weg] 16:45:20 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-130-86.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:45:53 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181241043.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 16:46:15 people cannot be trusted with such things 16:46:32 geek [~geek@unaffiliated/geek] has joined #lisp 16:46:55 rmz__ [~rmz@ti0071a380-dhcp4857.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 16:46:57 sipo [~user@c-24-60-0-191.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:47:28 stassats: ah in the calc bot it was solved very elegantly, like this: calc clhs.lock ops voice nick1 nick2 16:47:40 Flatlander [~tomppa@b27.kiulu.jyu.fi] has joined #lisp 16:48:00 then anyone can display stuff by doing calc clhs.whatever, but only mentioned ppl could do calc clhs.whatever change the text 16:48:35 -!- Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@dsl-stat-43-17.mmc.at] has quit [Quit: Fullmoon] 16:49:48 I see people have been active with bots here. For those interested, there is a CL eval/help bot available for testing on channel ##lisp-repl. It has now a word-definitions feature similar to fsbot's in #emacs. 16:50:17 ah cool.. Altho I would not do eval, since ppl will try to break it 16:51:32 Its memory can be filled but it will exit and start again. 16:52:34 -!- __class__ [~class@99-105-56-217.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:54:33 does it prevent calling functions outside of its package or such? i.e. prevent using file or network functions? Otherwise it still seems dangerous 16:54:42 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@m992c36d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:55:06 phadthai, yes. Join ##lisp-repl and test. 16:55:19 Demosthenes [~demo@m992c36d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 16:55:22 good, no need :) 16:56:07 ferada [~ferada@dslb-188-097-116-074.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:56:16 __class__ [~class@99-105-56-217.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:57:00 -!- billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:58:38 -!- blitz_ [~blitz@erwin.inf.tu-dresden.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:58:38 -!- sipo [~user@c-24-60-0-191.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:59:39 sipo [~user@c-24-60-0-191.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:59:42 Froward [~uh-oh@206.231.99.110] has joined #lisp 16:59:53 Kron_ [~Kron@206.126.93.212] has joined #lisp 17:01:17 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-182-11.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:03:26 DukePatience: have you tried: cl-user> (apropos "NSUBSEQ") 17:03:26 com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.utility:nsubseq, Def: function 17:03:26 17:05:35 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 17:08:23 specbot [~specbot@pppoe.178-66-12-36.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 17:08:56 -!- eataix [~eataix@unaffiliated/eataix] has quit [] 17:10:57 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-024.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:12:48 -!- pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:13:34 -!- teggi [~teggi@123.21.175.173] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:19:56 drl [~drl@110.139.229.172] has joined #lisp 17:20:26 -!- thaum [~arun@122.179.96.23] has left #lisp 17:21:08 -!- kilon [~kilon@athedsl-401902.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:21:20 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 17:22:21 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 17:22:29 RomyRomy [~stickycak@207.239.107.3] has joined #lisp 17:22:30 stickycake [~stickycak@207.239.107.3] has joined #lisp 17:24:07 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@d54C06DE6.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:24:21 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@m992c36d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:24:22 -!- sipo [~user@c-24-60-0-191.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:25:23 sipo [~user@c-24-60-0-191.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:26:21 ianmcorvidae|alt [~ianmcorvi@pool-96-233-176-214.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:26:21 -!- ianmcorvidae|alt [~ianmcorvi@pool-96-233-176-214.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 17:26:21 ianmcorvidae|alt [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 17:26:25 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:26:28 Quit 17:26:29 -!- tali713 [~tali713@c-75-72-193-140.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:27:12 -!- ianmcorvidae|alt is now known as ianmcorvidae 17:28:54 -!- gridaphobe [~gridaphob@cpe-74-68-151-24.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:30:00 sacho [~sacho@95-42-98-81.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 17:30:15 -!- stickycake [~stickycak@207.239.107.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:30:31 -!- RomyRomy [~stickycak@207.239.107.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:30:34 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:30:43 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:34:55 -!- drl [~drl@110.139.229.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:36:03 -!- __class__ [~class@99-105-56-217.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:37:20 __class__ [~class@99-105-56-217.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:41:35 gridaphobe [~gridaphob@cpe-74-68-151-24.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:42:18 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 17:43:23 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 17:43:51 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:44:20 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 17:46:39 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:47:18 -!- ainm [~ainm@161.Red-83-33-83.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: ((call/cc call/cc) (call/cc call/cc))] 17:48:48 sipo` [~user@c-24-60-0-191.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:49:16 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:52:10 -!- sipo [~user@c-24-60-0-191.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:54:13 loke: ugly? 17:54:31 zophy_ [~zophy@host-18-111-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 17:54:32 zophy [~zophy@host-18-111-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 17:55:28 -!- zophy_ [~zophy@host-18-111-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:55:35 -!- zophy [~zophy@host-18-111-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:57:53 behate [~emanuel@189.224.116.38] has joined #lisp 17:58:01 -!- c0atz1n [~emanuel@189.224.32.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:59:13 leo2007 [~leo@61.148.242.23] has joined #lisp 17:59:26 -!- leo2007 [~leo@61.148.242.23] has quit [Client Quit] 18:00:14 MoALTz__ [~no@31.185.58.75] has joined #lisp 18:01:33 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 18:01:58 zophy [~zophy@host-18-111-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:54 -!- zophy [~zophy@host-18-111-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:03:02 zophy [~zophy__@host-18-111-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 18:03:13 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@31.185.58.75] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:04:16 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@86.Red-88-11-22.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 18:04:16 -!- sipo` [~user@c-24-60-0-191.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:04:33 -!- zmv [~zmv@186.204.144.184] has quit [Disconnected by services] 18:04:42 *maxm-* is wondering if slime would accept a contrib that lets user easily define special highlighting on lisp output 18:05:01 sipo` [~user@c-24-60-0-191.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:05:58 depends on how it is implemented 18:06:15 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:06:27 well I'm unhappy with ansi highlighting of log category, coz I wanted to highlight more stuff, and ansi sequences throw off pretty printer alignment 18:07:17 somebody contributed an ansi color for slime. 18:07:19 so I'm thinking of rather then defadvice, add a (run-hook-with-args slime-repl-emit-hook start end).. 18:07:22 araujo [~araujo@190.38.61.1] has joined #lisp 18:07:22 -!- araujo [~araujo@190.38.61.1] has quit [Changing host] 18:07:22 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 18:07:23 that will be patch 1 18:07:30 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:08:15 and then a contrib/ module that implement a function that can be called interactively as well, to do (slime-repl-highlight-output (regexp . face)) 18:08:22 that will use above 18:09:10 but I won't bother if you won't give it consideration, since why waste time 18:10:07 pjb: that was me, but it did not get accepted, nor I received any replies 18:10:42 so I don't want to make another contribution if it just gets ignored without feedback 18:11:18 if you will format everything accordingly, then i'll take a look 18:11:46 <|3b|> at least with a contrib you can use it even if it doesn't end up in the main tree (assuming you get the supporting patches in) 18:12:16 stassats: can you define format everything accordingly? specifically in regards how slime-repl-ansi-colors.el was formatted wrongly or whatever, so I won't do same mistake 18:12:26 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-026.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 18:12:45 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable019.12-178-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 18:12:47 i don't know what slime-repl-ansi-colors.el is 18:13:02 see at other contribs as an example 18:13:02 stassats: i posted it to the mailing list, maybe it did not go through? 18:13:19 stassats: I did and I formatted it the same way as others 18:13:57 treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has joined #lisp 18:14:41 stassats: here is the url http://lists.common-lisp.net/pipermail/slime-devel/2012-March/018497.html 18:14:47 it is there, i haven't read it 18:14:59 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181241043.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 18:16:16 yes, defadvice is not right 18:16:19 stassats: Woot! I've been wishing for that clhs titles feature... I wonder if it would be slightly more usable to have the URL come first, and then the title? The rationale being: The URLs are all about the same length, while titles vary wildly in length, so the specbot reference would perhaps be more immediately recognizable... 18:17:14 stassats: well its a contrib/ so advice is not there if people don't load that specific module, and I was afraid that patch to slime.el itself, would have more stringent requirements then simply contrib/ module 18:17:16 Hexstream: i'm not sure either way would be advantageous 18:17:20 pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has joined #lisp 18:17:25 Hexstream: the URL itself is pretty recognizable 18:18:10 stassats: Yes, but it's not always at the same place, indentation-wise. Not even necessarily on the same line (end of 1st line vs second line). 18:18:17 requirements are don't break things and don't do unnecessary things 18:18:44 Hexstream: I don't see how it might pose a problem 18:18:49 Oh, and it would be more consistent with other clhs references, which only have a URL and no title. 18:19:07 stassats: in what way that ansi defadvice breaks things or does unnessesary thing? 18:19:22 i don't know, does it? 18:19:35 -!- gilligan_ [~gilligan_@host-089-207-254-219.vipri.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 18:19:50 well this conversation is getting nowhere.. "defadvice is wrong" is not useful feedback, without explaining how its wrong 18:19:51 Xach: https://github.com/xach/l1sp-org is not entirely up-to-date, is it? I don't find the LOOP stuff and the last commit was 4 months ago... 18:20:05 clintm [~clintm@c-98-232-33-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:20:08 it's just wrong 18:20:29 don't use defadvice in official contribs, that is all 18:21:40 stassats: I did a grep for defadvice first btw other modules are using it 18:22:01 that's not a good reason to use it yourself 18:22:08 anyway this is going nowhere, you obviously not interested in accepting a useful module, so this conversation is going nowhere.. 18:22:20 well, if you don't want it, then fine 18:22:22 *maxm-* tried to do the right thing, but not gonna go into stupid flamewar over it 18:23:16 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-026.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:23:25 stlifey [~stlifey@116.26.27.25] has joined #lisp 18:23:34 nikodemus: Really nice tutorial! (http://random-state.net/files/nikodemus-cl-faq.html) I have some suggestions: At http://random-state.net/files/nikodemus-cl-faq.html#which-ide-should-i-use , I think mentioning quicklisp-slime-helper would definitely be a good idea... 18:23:41 -!- sipo` [~user@c-24-60-0-191.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:23:44 i'm not interested in using, but if you will present a proper patch, i might consider including it 18:24:27 if the possibility that i might not use my free time to work on an open-source project discourages you, then don't do it 18:24:35 sipo` [~user@c-24-60-0-191.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:24:54 In http://random-state.net/files/nikodemus-cl-faq.html#how-do-i-compile-a-file , mentionning M-x slime-cheat-sheet would be nice. (Really under-advertised feature, that!) 18:24:58 meh can you define "proper-patch"? My only other idea is to add a hook to be called from slime-repl-emit function, will that be better then using defadvice? 18:25:31 a) don't use defadvice 18:25:39 stassats: with that kind of attitude, the aliens might leave you behind when the comet passes the Earth 18:25:40 that was entirety of my question, will such patch be accepted, because if that approach is rejected out of hand, why waste both of our time 18:25:47 patch any existing code you deem is neccesary 18:25:52 "That said, I am is highly partial to SBCL" should be "That said, I am highly partial to SBCL" 18:26:15 Demosthenes [~demo@m822c36d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 18:26:47 b) adding documentation would be a big plus 18:26:56 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 18:27:02 (i'm not really here right now) 18:27:54 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 18:28:06 maxm-: and (define-slime-contrib _slime-presentations_ ...) looks is suspicious 18:28:11 s/is// 18:28:41 nikodemus: The perils of leaving IRC without leaving IRC. ;P Let me know when you're really here I guess. 18:29:11 ah doh, its cut-n-paste 18:30:07 oh well, I'll submit it one more time with hook to slime-repl-emit.. I in fact used defadvice coz thought contrib/ not supposed to touch core, but if you fine with it, then hook makes more sense 18:30:36 slime-repl-emit is not in the core 18:30:55 the core isn't supposed to depend on contribs, that's what hooks are for 18:30:59 stassats: do you want separate patch for adding of hook, and then contrib modules using it, or you don't care? just don't want to have this 100 messages conversation again 5 days later, to find out another unwritten rule 18:31:35 i want a unified diff with a ChangeLog messages 18:31:36 What, you don't like surprise toxic hidden implicit rules? 18:31:37 *maxm-* had forgot repl got moved into contrib/ 18:31:42 (for everything) 18:31:45 and a pony 18:32:03 leo2007 [~leo@61.148.242.23] has joined #lisp 18:32:05 -!- _3b___ is now known as _3b 18:32:38 -!- clintm [~clintm@c-98-232-33-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: clintm] 18:33:55 RomyRomy [~stickycak@rrcs-50-74-0-42.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:34:15 stickycake [~stickycak@rrcs-50-74-0-42.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:37:44 stassats: TLDR of above conversation is "pls change defadvice to hook" "you forgot to change module name". Please don't take it as personal attack, extracting that info from you for 30 minutes, was exhausting and rest of the channel really bored with walls flood of useless crap 18:38:04 what would be an efficient way to convert a bit array '(simple-array bit) in a a byte array '(simple-array (unsigned-byte 8)) ? 18:38:08 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@m822c36d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:38:21 acting like you're entitled is not the best way to go if you want your contribution accepted 18:38:22 coerce signals an error, telling it cannot convert the bit array to this type 18:38:58 galdor: the most efficient is not want to do that, the next most efficient is to use implementation dependent tricks 18:39:53 Demosthenes [~demo@mb22c36d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 18:40:01 well the thing is, I have a large bit array (a few hundreds bits), and I'd like to insert in postgresql (bytea type); postmodern uses array of unsigned bytes for this type, so I'd like to cast it efficiently 18:40:02 -!- sipo` [~user@c-24-60-0-191.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:40:04 <|3b|> is the second array supposed to contain 1s and 0s, or octets made up of 8 bit groups from the 1st array? 18:40:15 galdor: You call that "large"?... 18:40:24 octets made up of 8 bit groups :) 18:40:42 Hexstream: well it depends of your point of view 18:40:44 <|3b|> yeah, probably implementation tricks for that :/ 18:40:54 Hundreds of bits is not large. :) 18:41:14 it's larger than the usual bit arrays you can use in protocols to store options in 8 or 16 bits :) 18:41:22 sipo` [~user@c-24-60-0-191.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:41:23 galdor: can you have it in the form of ub8 in the first place? 18:41:45 sure 18:41:53 i have bit-arrays of millions of bits 18:42:17 I just thought it would be nice to have bit arrays since they are, in fact, bit arrays 18:42:43 but if the conversion isn't dead simple and efficient, i'll use byte arrays and do the maths myself 18:42:47 thank you anyway 18:42:56 stassats: what are you storing in them ? 18:43:04 Bits! 18:43:11 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@mb22c36d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:43:26 sb-kernel:ub8-bash-copy (: 18:43:28 state 18:44:06 bit vectors is an efficient way to keep track of integer things 18:44:06 or ub1-, if you want to count bits rather than octets. 18:45:24 thank you for the tips, but i'll pass in that case :) 18:46:07 -!- leo2007 [~leo@61.148.242.23] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.0.95.1] 18:47:29 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable019.12-178-173.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 18:48:09 (defun ub1-to-ub8 (array) (declare (optimize (safety 0)) (type (simple-array (unsigned-byte 8) (*)) array)) (copy-seq array)) 18:48:45 (ub1-to-ub8 #*111) => #(7 0 0) 18:48:47 If I want to efficiently extract a column or a row from a 2d array, how would I do that? Looking at the hyperspec, the only mechanism I saw was AREF which gets a single cell 18:49:12 stassats: that seems fragile 18:49:19 Ralith: it is 18:49:32 kay ^^ 18:49:48 copy-seq is part of sbcl right ? 18:49:54 forgot to qualify it with "don't ever use it" 18:49:58 clhs copy-seq 18:49:58 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_cp_seq.htm 18:50:15 oh my bad 18:50:24 one more function I didn't know about 18:50:28 pnathan: by extract you mean? 18:51:10 I would like a mechanism that takes a 2d array and returns a row/column as a vector 18:51:17 you can have displaced arrays for rows, but it's not really efficient 18:51:26 I can of course whip one up walking point by point, but I was wondering if there was a bulk read 18:51:36 and no for columns you'd have to copy 18:51:45 -!- Froward [~uh-oh@206.231.99.110] has quit [Quit: even in laughter, the heart of Snorlax is sorrowful. and the end of that mirth is heaviness.] 18:52:04 Not at tall. 18:52:09 s/ta/a/ 18:52:18 You can make a displaced array on columns with closures. 18:52:46 Interesting. How so? 18:53:22 (defun get-columns (a c) (lambda (r) (aref a r c))) (funcall (get-column c) r) 18:53:28 better rewrite your algorithm not to need to do that 18:53:30 And similarly for the setter. 18:53:51 define mref to do this funcall. 18:54:53 pnathan: what pjb describes is just a way to abstract access to columns 18:55:29 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-177-181.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:55:58 lindes [~user@p4FF1C64A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:56:47 pnathan: if you want an efficiency, have two arrays, one transposed to another 18:56:54 s/an// 18:57:54 -!- sipo` is now known as sipo 18:57:59 which might not be really efficient in your case, so, use your better judgment 18:58:12 *pnathan* nods 18:58:31 OK, my google-fu is lacking at the moment. How can I do a non-blocking read in CL? Preferably implementation-neutral, but I'd accept an SBCL-specific answer. quicklisp packages welcome. 18:58:51 (MacOS X 10.6 on x86, if it matters) 18:58:51 clintm [~clintm@c-98-232-33-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:58:56 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 18:59:08 *stassats* summons minion 18:59:26 minion non-blocking-read 18:59:29 minion [~minion@pppoe.178-66-12-36.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 18:59:29 minion: iolib? 18:59:31 iolib: I/O(mainly networking) library containing: a BSD sockets library, a DNS resolver and an I/O multiplexer that supports select(2), epoll(4) and kqueue(2). http://www.cliki.net/iolib 19:00:01 stassats: thank you! 19:02:00 minion, decimals 19:02:02 decimals: A decimal number parser and formatting package for Common Lisp. http://www.cliki.net/decimals 19:02:26 (Just testing. Nice.) 19:02:29 err, wait. is that *only* networking? that's all I'm finding... 19:02:40 there's also wu-decimal 19:02:54 http://wukix.com/lisp-decimals 19:03:05 minion: wu-decimal? 19:03:06 wu-decimal: Wu-Decimal is a decimal number package developed by Wukix. http://www.cliki.net/wu-decimal 19:03:24 lindes: you can use it for whatever you want 19:04:26 stassats: ok... help? The Overview in the docs contains exactly "Describe IOLib here", and then the rest is all networking... 19:04:32 I guess I could go read the source... 19:04:42 sipo` [~user@c-24-60-0-191.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:05:31 hefner: is your text rendering code you use in your games available somewhere? 19:05:47 lindes: bug fe[nl]ix 19:06:06 hefner: i asked you about this before, but forgot to permanently note your suggestions 19:06:17 I'm starting to understand why people don't use lisp. I've been less than impressed with a lot of the documentation. I'll have to work on submitting patches for such things. :) 19:06:37 it's our way to keep away the unwashed 19:06:48 lindes, I think IOLIB is mostly a POSIX interface, so POSIX man pages can be useful. 19:06:53 *pnathan* applauds lindes 19:06:58 that would be awesome. 19:07:02 When every body and their granma are using php, it's natural documentation gets written. 19:07:36 -!- sipo [~user@c-24-60-0-191.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:07:45 i had no problem with using iolib because it mostly just a sugar-coated POSIX 19:08:02 lindes: one of my personal goals is to patch docs for projects I like to use. :-) 19:08:29 -!- shizzy0 [~user@c-24-91-161-73.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:10:04 pnathan: feel free to use some of my libraries then :) 19:10:12 *pnathan* snickers 19:10:21 What libs are those? 19:10:55 *stassats* would take some code instead of docs any day 19:11:08 hey lindes 19:11:19 it sounds like you missed my point again 19:11:50 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:11:52 -!- egnarts-ms [~smsmfk@20-221-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has left #lisp 19:11:56 namely, compiler macros cannot optimize for cases where the regex is dynamically provided 19:12:15 -!- paul0 [~user@189.115.63.118] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:12:22 such as by storing it in a variable or passing it to a function 19:12:40 also, cl-interpol returns strings because generating strings is its purpose. 19:13:13 -!- zophy [~zophy__@host-18-111-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:13:47 Ralith: the user could store their variable as the result of one of the functions, though, passing the litteral to it, which still calls the compiler macro, right? 19:14:12 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-182-11.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:14:33 lindes: again, the problem occurs when the result value of the otensibly regex-building reader macro is used dynamically. 19:14:39 -!- sacho [~sacho@95-42-98-81.btc-net.bg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:15:04 sacho [~sacho@95-42-98-81.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 19:17:04 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-182-11.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:17:15 sacho_ [~sacho@95-42-98-81.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 19:17:57 Ralith: I'm willing to hear you out, as long as you understand that it's moot; I'm happing with cl-interpol 19:18:01 happy 19:18:11 *lindes* is also tired, apparently. 19:18:31 if cl-interpol serves your needs, great 19:18:36 it does. 19:18:52 I was advising you on the design of a reader macro intended specifically for creating regexps. 19:19:07 *nod*, which I appreciate. 19:19:36 Though even there, I'm still not sure I understand what your use case is that gives this dynamic context that keeps the compiler macros from running. 19:20:06 -!- behate [~emanuel@189.224.116.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:20:13 again, any case where the result is stored in an intermediate variable before being passed to one of the ppcre functions. 19:20:27 -!- sacho [~sacho@95-42-98-81.btc-net.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:20:56 ok, so... (defvar x "test") (constantp x) ==> t --- so.... that breaks it? 19:21:11 (constantp 'x) 19:21:37 lindes: non-symbol atoms always self evaluate: they're constant. 19:21:37 -!- sipo` [~user@c-24-60-0-191.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:21:46 "test" cannot return "tost". 19:21:55 #1="test" always returns #1#. 19:22:06 it can with my #\" RM 19:22:28 sure 19:22:29 sipo` [~user@c-24-60-0-191.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:23:16 Guthur: it isn't. 19:23:28 -!- BigHugeDog [~QQ@221.0.11.215] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 19:23:57 *maxm-* is not sure if he is forever damaged by too much shell scripting, but I keep writing (or (assertion) (error "invalid such and such")) instead of (unless (assertion) (error ...)), and finds former easier on the eyes and more idiomatic to the situation 19:24:04 BigHugeDog [~QQ@221.0.11.215] has joined #lisp 19:24:07 lindes: what everyone is trying to say is that you're misusing constantp. 19:24:28 being a function, it evaluates its argument, and inspects the value. 19:24:37 instead of (assert (asserttion) () "invalid such and such")? 19:24:39 young_soul [~user@78.90.30.16] has joined #lisp 19:24:52 ok. I'm not too familiar with it. And, again, I'm apparently tired. I just remember doing checks a different time (when I was less tired) and finding evidence that the compiler macros were in fact being run... 19:24:53 it doesn't make sense to use it on things other than unevaluated code, like quoted literals or the arguments to a macro. 19:26:35 Ralith: Ahh, ok, it takes a form... OK, I *think* I get that. 19:26:47 stassats: petty, but I don't like in your face red color for assert, and like to reserve it for "this absolutetely positivile can't happen" constraints on the code, rather then situation like parsing something, and signaling invalid thing 19:27:09 hefner: what lib did you use again? 19:27:22 Guthur: freetype 19:27:23 maxm-: and errors is different how? 19:27:38 assert is more mild since it's restartable 19:27:45 continuable 19:28:10 hefner: your own binding or cl-freetype2? 19:28:23 Guthur: my own. 19:29:16 hmm maybe I should switch to assert actually, since PLACE thing seems useful to let ppl type in correction... (in the context of parsing configs) 19:29:20 DDR [~chatzilla@d99-199-14-2.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 19:29:36 Ralith: ok, I get it now: 19:29:45 writing new text rendering code seems to be a yearly chore, lately. 19:29:56 -!- sipo` [~user@c-24-60-0-191.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 19:29:57 (a) (funcall (compiler-macro-function 'cl-ppcre:scan) '(scan "test" "test this thing") nil) ; uses load-time-value 19:30:12 (a) (funcall (compiler-macro-function 'cl-ppcre:scan) '(scan x "test this thing") nil) ; does not 19:30:25 oops, s/a/b/ on the second line 19:30:42 what? 19:30:43 (that being not a lisp form, but an identifier for context) 19:30:48 oh yes 19:31:04 hefner: yep, it's a little disappointing to not find an out of the box solution for what I want 19:31:08 (missed the x on the first pass) 19:31:27 *lindes* nods 19:31:53 so: caveat to the user: don't store your strings before passing them off to create-scanner or whatever. :) 19:32:27 this becomes a more meaningful problem when the user starts writing wrapper functions or other abstractions that take regexes as arguments. 19:33:04 behate [~emanuel@189.224.4.19] has joined #lisp 19:33:06 and, if I was still trying to write a reader macro, I'd now try to decide what I wanted to do about dealing with the fact that sometimes someone might want a scanner, and sometimes someone might want something else. But I'm not, so... this has finally gotten me to understand your useful input, and I appreciate that. :) 19:33:13 hopefully I'll remember it, the next time. :) 19:33:33 Ralith: indeed 19:36:41 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@d54C06DE6.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 19:36:42 Now... if I could just figure out how to get cl-opengl to work where I have the glut main loop and my repl both active simultaneously....... 19:37:08 |3b| has some tutorials to that effect somewhere 19:37:12 iirc 19:37:26 I think you basically just have to launch the mainloop in a new thread. 19:37:51 I've found a couple of threads that talk about it, and people in those threads say "oh, cool, got it working, thanks!", but when I try the same thing, it doesn't work for me. :( 19:38:00 -!- BigHugeDog [~QQ@221.0.11.215] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:38:11 -!- minion [~minion@pppoe.178-66-12-36.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:38:11 -!- specbot [~specbot@pppoe.178-66-12-36.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:38:17 Hmm, I've seen several things saying that opengl isn't too happy with threads 19:38:32 minion [~minion@pppoe.178-66-12-36.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 19:38:35 and also, my SBCL seems not to have them enabled (though I could probably fix that part easily enough) 19:38:50 it's rarely a good idea to call opengl functions from multiple threads at once 19:39:05 lindes: opticl, clem, cl-bio, chemicl, etc... all could use some more documentation 19:39:08 specbot [~specbot@pppoe.178-66-12-36.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 19:39:10 it doesn't matter if your program has multiple threads and opengl is only happening in one of them, though. 19:39:37 slyrus: Do any of those do what I'm looking for? If so, I might be willing to provide it. :) 19:39:43 what are you looking for? 19:39:49 -!- geek is now known as killown 19:39:52 so having a glut mainloop thread and a lisp interaction thread for redefining functions and so on should be perfectly safe. 19:39:53 slyrus: otherwise, "I'll get right on that". 19:39:55 -!- killown [~geek@unaffiliated/geek] has quit [Changing host] 19:39:55 killown [~geek@unaffiliated/killown] has joined #lisp 19:39:59 slyrus: repl+opengl concurrently. 19:40:04 *maxm-* abandons assert thing, coz PLACE thing can only be nicely used for single variable. Can make it work by calling entire parse operation as assert 1st arg, but it just looks wrong 19:40:14 can just as well use my own restart 19:40:37 Ralith: OK. I'll see if I can't get a multi-threaded SBCL going, then... 19:44:09 slyrus: and if my facetious reply was unexpected... my earlier comment was meant to imply that I'd try to improve documentation as I go along, not that I was specifically looking for work to do. 19:49:15 lindes: on OS X, you probably have to perform all the GUI calls from *interior-lisp*. 19:50:08 -!- killown [~geek@unaffiliated/killown] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:50:22 pkhuong: if I just start a thread from slime that launches the gui stuff, is that maybe close enough? 19:50:44 lindes: probably not. 19:50:52 or would I still need to do *that* from *inferior-lisp*? And if so, why? 19:52:02 tali713 [~tali713@c-75-72-193-140.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:52:07 I don't know what "that" refers to. Bottom line: OS X tends to be picky about GUI calls from anything but the initial thread. As to why, ask the people at apple. 19:53:07 CCL has a function in a library that enables queueing thunks for execution in the initial thread 19:53:44 You use that to create a window, which continues its work event driven 19:53:55 -!- clintm [~clintm@c-98-232-33-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: clintm] 19:56:27 -!- Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:56:41 Phoodus [~foo@ip72-223-116-248.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:58:52 -!- dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:03:23 billstclair: link or specific name or something, please? 20:03:33 looking... 20:03:51 pkhuong: ok, well... I got threading support built, and nominally tested without opengl... now to see what happens if I try running it from a thread... 20:04:27 -!- RomyRomy [~stickycak@rrcs-50-74-0-42.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: RomyRomy] 20:04:27 -!- stickycake [~stickycak@rrcs-50-74-0-42.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: stickycake] 20:04:45 billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 20:04:46 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:05:05 -!- jasox [~jasox@178.239.26.136] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:06:21 on SBCL, you can interrupt-thread, but that's a nice way to hose your image under load. 20:06:22 lindes: gui:execute-in-gui in cocoa-ide/cocoa-utils.lisp 20:07:12 After starting CCL, you eval (require 'cocoa) 20:07:15 you can use slime-repl-hooks thing to make everything that goes through repl be evaluated in GUI thread 20:07:15 to load that 20:07:18 clintm [~clintm@c-98-232-33-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:07:21 qt-repl does this, very useful 20:08:06 billstclair: My current theory is to try to make this work in SBCL, but I'll (a) look at that for possible ideas, and (b) consider it a possible fallback. 20:08:38 maxm-: hmm, that may be of interest, too... well, the former. I don't really want to deal with qt at the moment. 20:08:40 https://github.com/7max/commonqt has a additonal fix that if you somehow hang your GUI thread, C-c C-c will pop debugger in the gui thread, rather the slime repl thread that is waiting on it.. Donno if it will work on whatever inter-thread blocking call method above thing may be using 20:09:00 or if the gui:execute-in-gui-thread is blocking at all 20:10:19 pkhuong: i still think we should make initial thread a housekeeping thread at some point 20:11:10 lindes: I actually have some code that does what you want 20:11:11 god hates people who start extra threads for dubious purposes. 20:11:24 what quicklisp package provides rtest? 20:11:43 nvm 20:11:45 lindes: i was getting at that getting repl to execute stuff in gui thread concept seems independent of the toolkit.. just saying I find it extremely useful it qt, and can imagine would be extremely useful on mac too... ie you can play with live window from repl 20:12:14 -!- paradoja [~paradoja@acceso-cmp174-159.lpa.idec.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:12:26 -!- Flatlander [~tomppa@b27.kiulu.jyu.fi] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 20:12:38 slyrus: I'd love it if you'd share. :) 20:12:49 hefner: god is a fiction. :D 20:13:18 42 too is a fiction, but you still believe in it. 20:13:38 nikodemus: housekeeping how? Dedicated to catching signals and GC stuff? 20:14:01 maxm-: ahh, yes. it's the way to do these things.... I forget which blog I was reading about that, but... maybe I'll find it and mention it in a blog post I've been writing myself over the last few days. :) 20:14:42 pjb: certain attributes ascribed to 42 are fictional, but 42 as a number is... well, I wouldn't exactly say a fact, but... I wouldn't say fiction, either. 20:15:00 i think (1) running finalizers (2) monitoring a queue of tasks that need to be done in the initial threads (3) running *periodic-polling-functions* and similar 20:15:23 s/initial threads/initial thread/ 20:15:49 not sure about signals. maybe that as well 20:15:55 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:16:01 side-note: having re-build SBCL, there are now a ton of fasl files that need rebuilding... sldb is giving me a nice try-recompiling restart, but... is there an easy way to invoke that for all of these? I guess I could just write my own handler-case pretty easily... 20:16:09 lindes: https://github.com/slyrus/cl-opengl-test 20:16:09 but wondering if slime has something automagical 20:16:15 lindes: maybe.. but if he's real, I'm pretty sure he frowns upon stealing the initial thread from the programmer. do you want to risk it? 20:16:28 slyrus: thank you! I'll take a look presently. 20:16:42 hefner: there wouldn't be an initial thread if it wasn't meant to be stolen 20:16:48 -!- Kynes` [~GTSpyVan1@adsl-75-0-4-185.dsl.renocs.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:16:56 there wouldn't be an initial thread if it wasn't meant to be used. 20:17:09 Kynes` [~GTSpyVan1@adsl-75-0-4-185.dsl.renocs.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:17:33 pay me no mind though, at least until I try using cocoa from SBCL and having something constructive to say. 20:18:07 lindes: https://gist.github.com/2331850 20:18:19 hefner: yes, I'll risk it. http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Pascal's_wager 20:19:43 nikodemus: thanks! though I'm just doing (load ...) ;) but that'll be useful later, probably. 20:20:57 ikki [~ikki@187.193.147.125] has joined #lisp 20:21:18 If I end up using eclipse to use maven to deploy unit tests of an AbstractFactoryGeneratorSingleton or some such crap like that in the afterlife I'll know I've offended the omnipotent beings 20:22:34 RomyRomy [~stickycak@207.239.107.3] has joined #lisp 20:25:25 H4ns: sent off the patch! 20:25:54 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-209-224-252.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:26:30 emanuel [~emanuel@189.224.30.18] has joined #lisp 20:26:57 -!- emanuel is now known as Guest44158 20:27:28 lindes: just fixed the dependencies. feel free to add some documentation! 20:28:23 -!- behate [~emanuel@189.224.4.19] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:29:41 lindes: something like 20:35:36 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181241043.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:37:13 -!- Guest44158 [~emanuel@189.224.30.18] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 20:38:18 pkhuong: thanks! will take a look... if I can get sbcl to not crash, now. :-( 20:38:40 lindes: the stuff I put up works for me here, fwiw 20:39:22 -!- treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:40:55 c0atz1n [~c0atz1n@189.224.30.18] has joined #lisp 20:42:20 double earmuffs. interesting convention. 20:42:53 -!- c0atz1n [~c0atz1n@189.224.30.18] has quit [Client Quit] 20:43:14 c0atz1n [~c0atz1n@189.224.30.18] has joined #lisp 20:45:20 extra-special variables 20:46:32 -!- Vivitron [~user@pool-173-48-170-228.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:46:38 ooh, I got threading to work! well, sort of. OpenGL draws according to new instructions (I'm somehow trying this without slime, so just from the SBCL repl), though the window has no decoration... which isn't so great. :) 20:46:49 slyrus: cool, I'll look at that now. 20:47:05 (and the various other things I've pushed on to my stack) 20:48:41 actually, I'm going with temporarily calling this success, and going to bed. The stack is stable, in the form of browser tabs. :) 20:48:48 Thank you, all. 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12:51:29 -!- scombinator [~user@121-73-59-25.cable.telstraclear.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:51:56 nicdev_: your question is wrong, there's no locks on export 12:52:31 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-161-247.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:53:04 -!- passionke1 [~Administr@219.82.5.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:53:54 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:54:25 _nix00 [~Adium@114.92.110.230] has joined #lisp 12:54:52 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA27863.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:55:29 -!- Modius_ [~Modius@cpe-70-123-128-240.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:55:48 pnq [~nick@ACA27863.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 12:57:00 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 12:57:47 stassats: but there is on defun right? i was getting the lock error while trying to load the file so i thought it was the export 13:00:15 optikalmouse [~user@206.108.130.82] has joined #lisp 13:00:34 -!- BigHugeDog [~QQ@221.0.11.215] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:00:49 I have three symlinks for local-projects in ~/quicklisp/local-projects, quicklisp isn't picking up any of the systems except for one. 13:00:56 nicdev_: what is the name of the function you are defining? 13:01:02 I don't really understand why :S 13:01:42 by quicklisp you mean asdf? 13:01:51 stassats: I guess so! :P 13:02:08 nicdev_: yes, you can't and shouldn't redefine functions in CL 13:02:12 airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 13:03:07 -!- froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:03:19 froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has joined #lisp 13:03:36 -!- froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has quit [Client Quit] 13:03:58 froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has joined #lisp 13:04:16 stassats: i am working on PAIP and i was putting the utility functions in it in a package and one of the functions he defines is debug 13:04:16 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:04:27 nicdev_: I've made very good experience with using http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp to paste the code which gives me headaches, together with a (part of the) backtrace which occurs. 13:05:00 don't paste to http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp, paste to http://paste.lisp.org/new 13:06:06 stassats: why shouldn't s/he ? 13:06:18 have you tried it? it doesn't work 13:06:21 stassats: so I don't get it, quicklisp/local-projects isn't where I should place the symlinks? 13:06:38 optikalmouse: i don't use quicklisp 13:06:59 stassats: ah, I see. Thank you for the explanation. 13:07:33 stassats: I thought you didn't want paste announcements to show up here. 13:07:46 that doesn't work either 13:09:48 nicdev_: (sb-ext:without-package-locks (load (compile-file ...)) is the big hammer, but also NOT recommended 13:10:41 i would strongly recommend either (1) renaming the offending function or (2) shadowing debug in the package definition 13:10:47 nicdev_: you can use http://pastie.org/ and give us the URL 13:11:05 nicdev_: how much experience do you have with CL? 13:11:17 kami: why do you recommend pastie now? 13:11:57 ie. (defpackage :paip-utils-whatever-it-is-called (:shadow #:debug) ...) 13:12:08 when http://paste.lisp.org/new works fine 13:12:15 stassats: can I use (:tree ...) when pushing to asdf:*central-registry* 13:12:37 optikalmouse: what does documentation to asdf say? 13:12:52 stassats: because you wrote "that doesn't work either" 4 minutes ago 13:13:27 nikodemus: mmh, shadowing was the first thought i had and tried but i was not working. i will check it out again and if that fails i will post the code. thanks 13:13:40 you need to read my messages in context 13:14:16 "that" is "paste announcements to show up here." 13:14:34 asvil [~asvil@178.120.86.14] has joined #lisp 13:14:37 -!- BeWhy [~chatzilla@c-76-124-138-194.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:15:39 -!- Shozan [~shozan@c-2cb4e253.011-86-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Going down.] 13:16:05 Shozan [~shozan@c-2cb4e253.011-86-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 13:16:18 gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:16:20 Sorry stassats, but as a non-native speaker of this language, I might misinterpret things. And even in my mother tongue, non-synchronous written communication doesn't go well with referential use of 'this' and 'that'. 13:17:18 And even if I misunderstood you, is there anything wrong if I would like to understand what nicdev_ is doing /exactly/ before I propose something? 13:17:42 -!- stassats changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: SBCL 1.0.56, Hunchentoot 1.2.3, Drakma 1.2.6, ABCL 1.0.1, CMUCL 20c 13:17:44 -!- Shozan is now known as SHODAN 13:17:48 maybe there is a missing (in-package ...) in his code 13:18:41 no, he's using old bad code 13:19:11 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@c-67-169-182-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: pirateking-_-] 13:19:59 stassats: yes, but it's not his fault that he is using 'old bad code' and if he has a problem with that 'old bad code' then someone might want to help him. 13:20:07 yeap. paip is pre-ansi 13:20:41 kami: i don't understand what you're talking about 13:21:32 H4ns: here? 13:22:31 nicdev_: paip is a great book, but not really ideal for learning common lisp. it's a brilliant /second/ book to read, after you already know common lisp and have the skills to figure out what to do in those few places (such as this), where the book is out of date 13:22:41 minion: tell nicdev_ about pcl-book 13:22:41 nicdev_: direct your attention towards pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 13:22:44 nikodemus: yes. I remember that I had prblems when I tried the code. 13:25:08 eni_ [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 13:25:41 -!- eni_ is now known as eni 13:28:53 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 13:32:20 -!- Dodek_ is now known as Dodek 13:33:17 -!- hefner [~hefner@c-69-255-57-56.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:33:21 bioevolgenec [~bioevolge@unaffiliated/bioevolgenec] has joined #lisp 13:34:01 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:34:09 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 13:34:10 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:34:24 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-177-170.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:36:32 Hello. I'm a Perl programmer who is trying to learn Lisp. I started studying the Land of Lisp book, but it seems that the more I read, the more confused I become. I remember someone suggesting the Practical Common Lisp book. Is it better? Any other suggestions? 13:36:46 Practical Common Lisp is better 13:37:34 stassats: Ok, thank you. I'll turn to that then. :) 13:38:38 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:38:42 bioevolgenec: I find Perl and CL to be quite common in some respects as well 13:38:48 -!- joachifm [~user@2001:1ad8:c:a4b:2e27:d7ff:fea9:27b6] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:39:14 map {} @list is spelled (mapcar #'cb list) and grep is remove-if-not but there are some shared idioms 13:39:47 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:40:53 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA27863.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 13:41:22 ivan-kanis [~user@79.245.204.77.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 13:41:23 How do you spell (mapcar #'cb list-1 list-2)? 13:41:57 pnq [~nick@ACA27863.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 13:42:10 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@50.Red-88-11-24.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:42:38 arnsholt: I loved Perl for its text handling capabilities! Now, CL and its functional programming style has gotten me fascinated about how much cleaner and bug-free code one can write, following a few rules! 13:43:00 Zhivago: in perl6 there's a zip operator; no such thing in "classic" perl5, you'd need a loop. 13:44:50 flip214: use List::MoreUtils qw/zip/ =) 13:45:52 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-228-71.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 13:46:16 I think it's safe to say that perl borrows some lispisms, in a half-arsed fashion. 13:46:31 Be careful not to over-anticipate any non-superficial similarities. 13:46:35 Start with PCL 13:47:25 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-239-176.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:47:26 don't start with one of Graham books, otherwise you'll come back here asking how you can put a closure into your continuation, so you can delayed compute while you continueate to implement web 3.0 13:47:28 I'm not sure I'd say half-arsed, but there's certainly more than Lisp in Perl 13:47:33 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-130-32.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 13:47:50 But Larry Wall freely admits that he's taken features he liked from Lisp 13:47:50 PCL -> some exploratory coding -> then graham books (maybe) 13:50:27 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-228-71.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:51:24 -!- passionke2 [~Administr@58.100.70.109] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:52:08 arnsholt: that's not "classic" perl5 but a contribution 13:52:27 i don't see any real reason to read graham, really. on lisp is fine, but you don't "need it". his ansi cl book is just weak 13:53:45 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@119.121.180.219] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:53:51 some people seem to like it, though, but meh. paip is a much better second book. then there's kleene and amop, and LiSP... plenty of things to read besides graham :) 13:54:14 felipe [~felipe@unaffiliated/felipe] has joined #lisp 13:56:28 n1nt4tsn0k|1 [~nitnatsno@188.19.142.11] has joined #lisp 13:58:37 -!- ainm 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[~Kron@69.166.22.139] has joined #lisp 14:15:21 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181241043.pp.htv.fi] has left #lisp 14:16:26 ivan-kanis: Land of Lisp is great but I left my book at my ex-gf's place -_-' 14:16:44 *optikalmouse* is at a hackathon, Lisp vs PHP/Python/Ruby ;p 14:20:08 redline6561: alive? 14:21:52 optikalmouse: who's winning? 14:22:07 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:22:35 ivan-kanis: no idea, I think the djano/rails people since htye can run a single command & have a whole bunch of code generated for them :P 14:23:49 -!- asvil [~asvil@178.120.86.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:23:52 m7w [~chatzilla@46.28.98.54] has joined #lisp 14:24:31 optikalmouse: oh well if the challenge is to make some web site it's not fair... 14:24:51 heh, nah it's it'll be fine, I have the libraries of Edi Weitz on my side! :P 14:25:58 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 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TheMoonMaster rootzlevel Praise bieber MrTapyr aperture dkasak SaidinWoT 13:11:08 -!- names: November k9quaint H4ns scharan tycho r_takaishi herbieB keltvek theBlackDragon AntiSpamMeta YokYok gz fe[nl]ix Patzy Bugson jasond tvaalen aerique finnrobi ineiros sav scode mal jasom ec Yamazaki-kun df_ aoh cow-orker kloeri qsun sshirokov Jabberwockey Bucciarati xristos Neronus sepi eMBee |3b| ramus foom luis rotty ozzloy gensym The_third_man j_king Fade krl Utkarsh_ quasisan1 _3b Yahovah BlastHardcheese PissedNumlock pok dnm joshe pokes sbryant 13:11:08 -!- names: ArmyOfBruce redline6561 yan_ kanru e__krappi brendyn g0 arnsholt Munksgaa1d kaol oconnore rdd jerQ timb ChibaPet housel guther vsync rabite clog freiksenet antoszka enn_ ve 13:11:16 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has quit [*.net *.split] 13:13:57 FACEFOX [~facefox@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:16:56 ski_ [~slj@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 13:16:56 Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has joined #lisp 13:28:44 dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has joined #lisp 13:31:42 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 13:32:39 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:34:44 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@d54C06DE6.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:39:01 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA2D63C.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:39:10 tsuru`` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-25-21.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 13:41:40 -!- tsuru` [~charlie@adsl-74-240-217-184.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:42:10 harish [~harish@cm50.beta157.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 13:42:17 pnq [~nick@ACA2D63C.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 13:42:49 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:45:36 [6502] [5e24ef43@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.36.239.67] has joined #lisp 13:47:51 <[6502]> hello. I hope this is not going to start a flame (not my intention).... but is there any reason for which (defun foo (x) ...) can be better than (define (foo x) ...) ? 13:48:30 [6502]: you may want to discuss this on #scheme 13:48:55 Skola [~bas@5352A3FB.cm-6-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #lisp 13:48:57 <[6502]> H4ns: they would explay why (define (foo x) ..) is better 13:48:59 -!- Skola [~bas@5352A3FB.cm-6-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 13:49:20 [6502]: right. maybe they appreciate that kind of discussion. 13:49:43 <[6502]> H4ns: so there's really no technical reason for it? 13:49:54 (defun foo (x) ..) is better because it looks more like C. 13:50:01 <[6502]> hehehe 13:50:09 [6502]: you can construct all sorts of reasons 13:50:46 Personally, I think that (define (foo x) ...) is pretty nifty. 13:51:01 But it makes #'foo a little less obvious. 13:51:06 [6502]: in a lisp-1, define makes more sense as there is only one namespace and it is thus straightforward to have just one definer. 13:51:15 <[6502]> hmmm 13:51:18 <[6502]> true 13:51:33 <[6502]> defun makes clear that's the "function" namespace involved 13:51:36 If (foo _) or something were a partial application form ... 13:52:33 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:52:48 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 13:52:55 -!- treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:55:54 -!- atgreen [~root@shutterkraft.com] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 13:57:38 -!- eni is now known as albacker 13:57:43 -!- albacker [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Changing host] 13:57:43 albacker [~eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has joined #lisp 13:58:27 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-131-188.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 14:00:24 mathslinux [~user@106.3.63.206] has joined #lisp 14:00:44 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:01:09 pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has joined #lisp 14:01:49 -!- mathslinux [~user@106.3.63.206] has left #lisp 14:03:36 c0atz1n_ [~c0atz1n@189.224.32.146] has joined #lisp 14:04:19 -!- c0atz1n [~c0atz1n@189.238.49.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:04:26 atgreen [~android@bas3-toronto06-1176449331.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 14:08:52 (defmacro define ((name &rest args) &body body) `(defun ,name ,args ,@body)) 14:08:58 There 14:09:48 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA2D63C.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:13:52 <[6502]> loke: Amazing that they didn't think about it when discussing CL standardization... ;-) 14:14:45 [6502]: that's because I wasn't on X3J13 14:15:01 [6502]: It takes a certain kind of mind to come up with those things. 14:19:50 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 14:21:03 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Bacteria] 14:23:12 I'm finishing my CL structural font-lock hack, that allows to add faces/background to stuff like names and bindings in (generic-bind-like-thing ((name binding) (name binding))), or to condition/consequent clauses of COND 14:23:30 *maxm-* gonna use slight change in background, rather then something heavy 14:24:26 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@50.Red-88-11-24.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:24:27 macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-17-133.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 14:24:35 what would be good background change choice for condition vs consequent? lighter or darker then normal code? 14:31:49 klltkr [~klltkr@188-222-83-162.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:35:52 Phoon_ [~tanuki@pool-71-180-6-96.tampfl.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:35:55 -!- Phoon [~tanuki@pool-71-180-6-96.tampfl.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:38:27 -!- dna` [~user@41.215.130.236] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:41:05 morning 14:41:07 madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has joined #lisp 14:44:13 gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:46:21 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:47:57 jewel [~jewel@196-215-117-85.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:48:03 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:48:28 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 14:53:29 -!- alvis [~user@tx-184-6-178-38.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:54:38 lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129057010.mbb.telenor.dk] has joined #lisp 14:56:01 -!- p_l_ is now known as p_l 14:56:26 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:56:49 untrusted [~user@stgt-5f7185b5.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 14:57:02 huangjs [~user@190.8.100.83] has joined #lisp 14:58:15 Evenin' 14:58:22 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-26-141.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:00:26 p_l_ [plasek@gateway/shell/rootnode.net/x-orrhctjyuncfosiy] has joined #lisp 15:00:26 -!- p_l_ [plasek@gateway/shell/rootnode.net/x-orrhctjyuncfosiy] has quit [Client Quit] 15:02:27 Interesting, the author of Group theory in the bedroom is a lisper, and has a blog at http://bit-player.org/. There's even a small amount of lisp-related content (http://bit-player.org/?s=lisp). 15:03:00 lichtblau [~user@port-92-195-60-72.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 15:04:35 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-26-141.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 15:05:43 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@213.211.140.101] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:05:55 theBlackDragon [~dragon@213.211.140.101] has joined #lisp 15:06:30 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:10:53 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 15:12:36 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Client Quit] 15:12:37 loke: nobody would break compatibility with other lisps for arbitrary reasons 15:12:55 mrSpec [~Spec@89-77-76-114.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 15:12:57 stassats: Umm... 15:13:00 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-77-76-114.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 15:13:00 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 15:13:05 stassats: you do realise it was a joke, right? 15:13:24 it wasn't funny 15:14:07 and it's directed to [6502] as well 15:15:13 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.90.236] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:15:16 phax [~phax@cpc14-haye17-2-0-cust110.haye.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 15:15:16 -!- phax [~phax@cpc14-haye17-2-0-cust110.haye.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Changing host] 15:15:16 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 15:15:36 <[6502]> stassats: my question was originally serious... i.e. I didn't understand if there was any advantage of (defun foo (x) ... ) instead of (define (foo x) ...); now I see that indeed defun makes a little more evident that the function namespace is involved 15:15:57 there's no advantage of (define (foo x)) either 15:16:04 [6502]: you are looking for "advantages" where there are none 15:16:18 [6502]: a lot of lisp is just history. 15:16:23 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.90.115] has joined #lisp 15:16:54 <[6502]> H4ns: sure a lot is. A lot is instead quite well thought. 15:17:15 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:18:06 <[6502]> stassats: (define (foo x) ...) looks more similar to actual explicit uses of foo. In a sense it's nicer (lower surprise effect) 15:18:46 <[6502]> stassats: but scheme is a lisp-1 ... I'm not sure it would be a good idea in a lisp-2 15:19:49 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:20:04 that's a very contrived "advantage" 15:22:11 <[6502]> stassats: still I'll keep defun and defmacro in my lisp-3 toy... defun works on the function namespace, defmacro works on the macro namespace. Seems reasonable 15:23:02 lisp-3? how is that? 15:23:21 did you know that CL has more than two namespaces? 15:23:42 <[6502]> stassats: you can have both a macro and a function with the same name. (symbol-macro 'x) is the parallel of (symbol-function 'x) of CL 15:23:55 <[6502]> stassats: sure 15:24:13 and having macro and functions in different namespaces is quite unreasonable 15:24:20 <[6502]> stassats: lisp-3 is because there are three "main" namespaces... 15:24:31 <[6502]> stassats: why? 15:24:39 stassats: he is not talking about common lisp, if you did not recognize yet. 15:24:54 H4ns: yeah, i got that part 15:25:14 sickle [~Harrison@pool-108-20-196-69.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:25:23 [6502]: you can't come with any downsides yourself? 15:25:46 -!- sylecn [~sylecn@49.79.93.144] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:26:00 let me start then: looking at the code "is that a macro? or is that a function? or maybe both?" 15:26:40 <[6502]> stassats: that's the same doubt you may have in common lisp. It's not a big issue. 15:26:51 pnathan1 [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has joined #lisp 15:27:08 they can't be both at the same time 15:27:40 <[6502]> stassats: yeah, but you don't know if it's a macro or a function. then point is that either should be obvious or you shouldn't care. 15:28:38 and (symbol-macro 'x) is not a parallel of (symbol-function 'x), it's MACRO-FUNCTION 15:28:54 <[6502]> stassats: in my toy (foo x y) will be a macro invocation if present or a function call if it's not present. (funcall #'foo x y) is a function call for sure. 15:29:19 why do people always come up with dialects of lisp which make no sense? 15:29:30 <[6502]> stassats: because it's fun? 15:29:57 stassats: because it geives WJ a chance to shine? 15:30:05 <[6502]> stassats: indeed CL has functions and macros with the same name, but they're special cased as compiler macros. 15:30:12 -!- pnathan [~Adium@75.87.255.164] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:30:15 loke: "shine" 15:30:28 compiler-macros are a completely different thing 15:30:38 <[6502]> yeah, completely :-D 15:30:48 H4ns: something like that :-) 15:31:29 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@d54C06DE6.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 15:32:47 <[6502]> stassats: indeed there are a few parts that are sort of obscure, but I think they make sense. For example "<" is both a macro and a function, but the macro version is short-circuiting 15:33:23 < in brainfuck is saner than this 15:33:44 <[6502]> stassats: but in most cases (foo x y) and (funcall #'foo x y) are the same (with the explicit version just being more efficient) 15:34:21 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:34:23 <[6502]> stassats: exactly what compiler-macros are for 15:34:43 what for? 15:34:58 compiler macros do not change semantics 15:35:33 robert1 [~robert3@pool-70-17-235-150.balt.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:35:35 <[6502]> stassats: exactly... most macro/function pairs compile to the same semantics. There are very few exceptions ( "<" is one of them) 15:36:10 <[6502]> stassats: and you can do whatever you like in a compiler macro, it's just suggested you don't change semantics :-D 15:36:31 It is necessary that you do not change semantics, as compiler macros are applied randomly. 15:36:43 Or whimsically, if you prefer. 15:36:48 <[6502]> Zhivago: this would add to the fun of debugging :-D 15:37:10 I recommend that you hire some thugs to break your fingers with lengths of lead piping. 15:37:25 Can any give me advice on developing a simple GUI? 15:37:37 *anyone 15:37:37 robert1: take commonqt and do it 15:37:39 robert: I recommend using html5. 15:37:50 <[6502]> js/html5 is the future 15:41:17 -!- albacker [~eni@unaffiliated/enyx] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 15:41:32 Widoa [~Widoa@78-73-117-181-no162.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 15:41:38 -!- Widoa [~Widoa@78-73-117-181-no162.tbcn.telia.com] has left #lisp 15:41:47 -!- ainm [~ainm@130.Red-79-156-39.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 15:41:50 ainm [~ainm@130.Red-79-156-39.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:42:00 Hmm, thanks, have you personally used commonqt? 15:42:12 i did, yes 15:42:39 I've been looking at Qt and using c++, but I'm beginning to hate c++ 15:43:07 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:44:18 <[6502]> robert1: the normal path is liking c++, falling in love with template metaprogramming crap, realizing it's crap, hate c++ 15:44:36 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:46:25 eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #lisp 15:46:59 I just did a small project with genetic algorithms to learn lisp, enjoyed that a lot. Then I decided I wanted to make a GUI for this compression algorithm I made, I've been doing it in c++ and want to tear my hair out 15:47:08 -!- c0atz1n_ [~c0atz1n@189.224.32.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:47:13 c0atz1n [~c0atz1n@189.224.63.71] has joined #lisp 15:47:41 Anyone here do much with GA's or compression? 15:48:39 achiu [~achiu@ip68-96-95-213.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 15:54:04 tensorpudding [~michael@99.56.161.74] has joined #lisp 15:54:17 -!- untrusted [~user@stgt-5f7185b5.pool.mediaWays.net] has left #lisp 15:54:39 Hi there 15:54:55 I'm looking for an existing way to keep a trace of all the modifications I'm making to a file. 15:55:19 I would like to avoid things like "git commit" each time I save the file 15:55:33 but I'm searching this only for one file 15:55:54 (if I modify the save-hook it would apply for each saved file no ?) 15:57:04 -!- atgreen [~android@bas3-toronto06-1176449331.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:57:48 -!- dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:58:00 -!- ainm [~ainm@130.Red-79-156-39.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 15:58:06 ainm [~ainm@130.Red-79-156-39.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:58:19 bjonnh: was that meant for #emacs?\ 15:58:27 rwiker [~rwiker@233.80-202-200.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 15:58:36 I want to do this in my emacs :p 15:58:50 ask #emacs. 15:58:55 dlila [~dlila@72.53.70.164] has joined #lisp 15:58:57 ohhh sorry 15:59:00 wrong window 15:59:21 <[6502]> wrong buffer you mean? 15:59:38 yeah :) 16:00:01 but they are in different windows (workspaces) 16:01:14 <[6502]> OT: yesterday my ubuntu got the end-of-life message. I just hate unity and I'm scared about what I heard about gnome3... what are you guys using? 16:01:43 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:01:51 OT: I3 16:02:05 <[6502]> i3? 16:02:16 a tiling window manager 16:02:27 [6502]: i3wm.org 16:03:02 -!- jathd [~user@mon69-5-88-169-253-165.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:04:23 dto [~dto@pool-72-70-40-118.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:04:46 AndIrc___ [~android@218.sub-174-253-240.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 16:05:24 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:05:50 -!- totzeit [~kirkwood@c-71-227-253-228.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:07:18 KDE->GNOME->KDE->icewm->fvwm->xmonad (roughly that progression) 16:09:15 metaphysician [~metaphysi@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has joined #lisp 16:09:52 -!- ainm [~ainm@130.Red-79-156-39.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:11:38 -!- robert1 [~robert3@pool-70-17-235-150.balt.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:11:58 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:19:16 -!- rwiker [~rwiker@233.80-202-200.nextgentel.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 16:19:48 nanoc [~conanhome@201.251.103.66] has joined #lisp 16:21:12 snearch [~snearch@f053004146.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:27:59 -!- AndIrc___ [~android@218.sub-174-253-240.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:29:15 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@d54C06DE6.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:30:51 [6502]: schemers find (define (foo a b c) ) a good idea because they don't have &optional &rest &key etc. 16:31:07 jathd [~user@mon69-5-88-169-253-165.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:31:44 <[6502]> pjb: good point too 16:32:01 Also, notice that the definition of separate lambda-lists allows their uses in other contextes. 16:32:23 eg. destructuring-bind or your own macros. 16:32:56 One grip with loop is that it doesn't use lambda lists for (loop for () in ). 16:33:32 <[6502]> pjb: something I didn't understand is why destructuring is not present for functions but only for macros 16:33:36 alvis [~user@tx-184-6-178-38.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 16:34:12 That's because macro functions actually take only two parameters: form and environment. 16:34:16 /j #curl 16:34:22 thats awkward 16:34:46 And defmacro expands to a (lambda (whole env) (destructuring-bind ,lambda-list whole )) 16:35:15 [6502]: and notice you can write your own define-function that does just that. (with a corresponding destructuring-call. 16:37:17 <[6502]> pjb: actually destructuring is rarely needed in a function, it's indeed annoyin is not present directly in let forms... (let (((x y) (get-point))) ...) 16:37:29 -!- metaphysician [~metaphysi@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:37:42 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.104.38] has joined #lisp 16:37:53 metaphysician [~metaphysi@117.219.0.200] has joined #lisp 16:37:55 [6502]: because we use multiple values or better-structured types for that. 16:38:00 -!- metaphysician [~metaphysi@117.219.0.200] has quit [Changing host] 16:38:00 metaphysician [~metaphysi@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has joined #lisp 16:39:25 [6502]: (shadow 'let) (defmacro let (bindings &body body) `  (destructuring-bind  ) ) 16:40:18 <[6502]> pkhuong: even directly binding multiple values in a let form would be useful, but syntax can become ugly. I think i saw a package doing all kinds of destructuring everywhere... 16:41:37 francogrex [~user@109.130.82.27] has joined #lisp 16:41:46 minion: metabang-bind? 16:41:48 *[6502]* doesn't love multiple values 16:41:54 metabang-bind: This page is here to help ASDF-Install and me agree on names. http://www.cliki.net/metabang-bind 16:41:54 well that did not work 16:42:32 I have an account with x10 hosting, they have php engines, but do you think i can load lisp in there to enable users to run lisp scripts? 16:43:00 <[6502]> hmmm 16:43:08 <[6502]> a lisp implementation in PHP 16:43:18 francogrex: http://tech.coop/Software%20Development 16:48:13 -!- sawjig [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:48:17 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:48:39 dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has joined #lisp 16:50:59 sawjig [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has joined #lisp 16:51:27 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053004146.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 16:51:28 I was thinking of uploading my own executable to the server 16:53:13 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 16:54:39 BigHugeDog [~QQ@221.0.11.215] has joined #lisp 16:55:21 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:55:35 francogrex: tech.coop is lisp friendly. 16:57:40 airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 16:58:59 -!- Nisstyre is now known as TheSussman 16:59:17 -!- TheSussman is now known as Nisstyre 16:59:48 francogrex: otherwise any hosting where you're root allow you to do whatever you want. A little more expensive, but still acceptable. 17:01:41 -!- lars_t_h [~lars_t_h@002129057010.mbb.telenor.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:04:44 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.123.251.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:07:02 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:07:08 ok probably worth a trial 17:08:42 c0atz1n_ [~c0atz1n@189.224.144.129] has joined #lisp 17:10:29 -!- c0atz1n [~c0atz1n@189.224.63.71] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:11:21 Rahul [~Rahul@182.18.179.83] has joined #lisp 17:11:32 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.220] has joined #lisp 17:11:59 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:15:12 Kron_ [~Kron@69.166.22.139] has joined #lisp 17:17:27 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:18:06 any recomendations for a really good tutorial on parsing fixed-length format text record files? 17:18:18 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 17:19:03 also, any good date/time/calendar library recomendations? 17:19:30 LOCAL-TIME for date and time things. 17:19:32 ezakimak: i'm doing that right now, i have a defined-fixed-record-format macro that i use. 17:19:44 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@99-28-161-110.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:19:59 ezakimak: it is proprietary, but we can discuss if you like 17:20:27 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@176.222.173.99] has joined #lisp 17:20:27 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@176.222.173.99] has quit [Changing host] 17:20:27 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 17:20:53 mind if we pm? 17:21:19 ezakimak: i am not offering you personal support. we can discuss here. 17:22:10 well, then the next question is do you sell it? 17:22:42 ezakimak: no. it is just what i do in my day job. 17:22:44 or is it such a large problem it's not easy to do in lisp w/o a decent macro for it? 17:22:45 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 17:23:29 ezakimak: it is easy. what is it that you are looking for? 17:23:33 emacsuser [59d476e8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.89.212.118.232] has joined #lisp 17:23:47 i suppose I could treat it like a binary format as in pcl 17:24:46 need to parse: http://www.schools.utah.gov/computerservices/Services/Data-Clearinghouse.aspx 17:24:58 ezakimak: i work with files that are described in tables that list the field name or description, the start and end position in the record and the data type 17:25:16 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:25:35 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.82.27] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:25:40 ezakimak: i have a macro that takes these definitions, in s-expression format, and generates a reader and writer method. it is really very easy. 17:25:59 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:26:14 that's great but doesn't help me if it's propietary 17:26:38 ezakimak: no, but as it is easy, you can write it yourself. 17:26:42 -!- cods [~cods@tuxee.net] has quit [Changing host] 17:26:42 cods [~cods@rsbac/developer/cods] has joined #lisp 17:27:25 ezakimak: but of course, you need to understand what you are writing. why do you want to use lisp anyway? maybe you can just use excel and be done with it. 17:27:55 the rest of the app I'm working on is in lisp, so to import data it has to be lisp 17:28:24 -!- metaphysician [~metaphysi@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:28:27 metacoder [~metaphysi@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has joined #lisp 17:29:07 ezakimak: very good. so go ahead. first put the record layout description into an s-expression format that is easy to work with in lisp 17:29:49 well, back to my original question then, are there any good tutorials on this already out there? 17:30:00 ezakimak: my field descriptions look like this: (name start end type) with name being a symbol, start and end the starting and ending columns and type a picture, like N for numeric or A for alphanumeric. 17:30:02 should i just approach it as a binary file format? 17:30:32 ezakimak: usually, asking the same question twice in short progression is not a good way to make friends. 17:32:33 not looking for a fight. 17:33:22 ezakimak: neither am i. i offered to help you with an approach that is successful for me, but if you decline, i can't help more. 17:34:33 -!- starji [~starji@c-76-115-40-108.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:34:42 ezakimak: there are no good tutorials, because it's trivial. 17:35:29 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 17:38:23 any recommendations for a good date/time/calendar library? or is it built-in/trivial/unecessary? 17:38:24 ezakimak: you just get the fields with subseq and set them with replace. The question is to map meaningful names (a functional abstraction) to the field start and end positions. 17:38:33 This mapping can easily be generated with a macro. 17:38:45 ezakimak: there's localtime. 17:38:53 which is called local-time 17:38:54 Time and Calendar is far from trivial. 17:39:08 minion: local-time 17:39:11 local-time: local-time is a library for manipulating date and time information in a semi-standard manner. http://www.cliki.net/local-time 17:39:24 by trivial i meant facilities already existing 17:39:45 At least if you want to go back to historic times (which is as close as 1923. 17:39:46 ) 17:39:58 ezakimak: there's encode/decode-universal-time 17:40:33 -!- dlila [~dlila@72.53.70.164] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:40:36 local-time looks to be what I'm looking for, thanks. 17:42:24 doesn't look like local-time is in quicklisp 17:42:49 ezakimak: look closer 17:42:59 hrm. apropos returned nil 17:43:13 It's there. 17:45:03 found it. how odd it returned empty the first time I searched 17:45:25 -!- sysfault [~exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:45:38 -!- Phoodus [~foo@wsip-68-107-217-139.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:46:11 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:47:38 -!- achiu [~achiu@ip68-96-95-213.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 17:48:59 CampinSam [~Sam@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 17:49:55 copperx [~rafa@adsl-75-54-98-59.dsl.elpstx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:50:10 there's also net-telent-date 17:50:55 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:51:20 ezakimak: apropos always returns nothing 17:51:42 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:51:43 but may print something 17:52:09 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@d54C06DE6.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 17:52:11 i meant it didn't print anything the first time 17:52:22 guess my buffer state was messed up somehow 17:56:25 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:56:40 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:56:47 -!- dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: Zzz] 17:57:07 ecraven [~user@www.nexoid.at] has joined #lisp 17:57:09 sergv [~sergey@80.252.242.43] has joined #lisp 17:57:33 -!- Rahul [~Rahul@182.18.179.83] has left #lisp 18:00:56 -!- copperx [~rafa@adsl-75-54-98-59.dsl.elpstx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: copperx] 18:01:57 can a child class shadow a parent class's instance slot with a class slot? 18:05:09 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 18:05:17 ezakimak: yes. but that would be a confusing thing to do. 18:06:14 my thinking is defclass baserecord with record id field, then in child classes replace it with a class slot since it's a fixed value 18:06:15 -!- blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-4575fc51.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:06:34 copperx [~rafa@adsl-75-54-98-59.dsl.elpstx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:06:43 ezakimak: why does the base record class need an id slot? 18:07:05 because they all have it 18:07:28 I never had to use class instances . 18:07:45 In the real world, no object share a class instance. However similar they are. 18:08:07 ezakimak: i don't understand. 18:08:28 i just thought it would make sense for all instances of recordtype-a that have id= use a class instance for that value 18:08:39 blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-4575fc51.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 18:08:48 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:09:04 ezakimak: if there's really an attribute that depends on a class, don't make a slot, but a method: (defmethod attribute ((self class)) 'the-constant-value) 18:09:25 -!- xuser [xuser@unaffiliated/xuser] has left #lisp 18:10:21 sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-90-138.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:11:00 -!- Guthur [~user@host86-148-167-55.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:11:49 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:13:06 patrickwonders [~patrickwo@mobile-166-147-096-146.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 18:13:06 n1nt4tsn0k|1 [~nitnatsno@37.79.46.77] has joined #lisp 18:13:30 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.220] has joined #lisp 18:14:01 Hello, I'm struggling to parse some youtube urls and download corresponding videos and I'm looking for lisp url libraries that would let me extract url query part as some key-value store, e.g. alist, and also decode urls, e.g. "foo%20bar" -> "foo bar". I've looked at puri and cllib url.lisp file but neither provides such functions, so can somebody point me out what libraries/parts of web servers may provide desired functionality? 18:14:42 sergv: there are some good regexps to parse urls. That's parseable with regexps. 18:14:43 sergv: there is no all-in-one library that does that 18:14:49 So you can use one with cl-ppcre. 18:15:18 sergv: puri and one of the many urlencode/urldecode functions should suffice though. 18:15:21 -!- n1nt4tsn0k|1 [~nitnatsno@37.79.46.77] has quit [Client Quit] 18:15:41 n1nt4tsn0k|1 [~nitnatsno@37.79.46.77] has joined #lisp 18:15:53 -!- n1tn4tsn0k [~nitnatsno@188.19.142.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:16:58 -!- patrickwonders [~patrickwo@mobile-166-147-096-146.mycingular.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:18:54 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:19:01 pjb: yes regexps may help but I'm not quite sure I'll handle whole spec right 18:19:06 -!- sickle [~Harrison@pool-108-20-196-69.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: sickle] 18:19:19 n1tn4tsn0k [~nitnatsno@188.19.219.168] has joined #lisp 18:19:35 sickle [~Harrison@pool-108-20-196-69.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:19:53 whole spec isn't too bad i don't think. it's not like email addresses 18:20:12 -!- n1tn4tsn0k [~nitnatsno@188.19.219.168] has quit [Client Quit] 18:20:31 n1tn4tsn0k [~nitnatsno@188.19.219.168] has joined #lisp 18:21:30 -!- copperx [~rafa@adsl-75-54-98-59.dsl.elpstx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: copperx] 18:21:54 ://[user[:password]]@/[?] 18:22:03 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:22:30 -!- n1nt4tsn0k|1 [~nitnatsno@37.79.46.77] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:22:55 ezakimak: i'm not trying to be difficult, but that is not the spec. it is not even close to complete. 18:23:07 ezakimak: yes, puri already does that and I was trying to parse 18:23:07 forgot [:port] 18:23:33 bioevolgenec [~bioevolge@unaffiliated/bioevolgenec] has joined #lisp 18:23:44 sergv: the query string is outside of the URI spec anyway. and it is relatively ill-defined as well. 18:23:51 urldecode it and then break it on &--the rest is application-dependent 18:24:33 H4ns: thanks, I'll keep that in mind 18:27:05 I've been trying to quote the value of a variable using for example (quote ( test)), where test is the variable, but the variable name is quoted instead of its value. How could I quote the value of the variable? 18:27:13 H4ns, how is it not even close? I forgot [#] at the end. but that should handle 99% of common cases 18:28:16 bioevolgenec: `',test is one way 18:28:25 derekv [~derekv@c-71-238-24-59.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:28:55 -!- metacoder [~metaphysi@unaffiliated/meta-coder] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:29:20 H4ns, does that only work in a macro? 18:29:21 ezakimak: it is not a regular expression to begin with, and the way that you wrote it makes it appear as if the @ is mandatory. but then, it is really just too informal to be of any use. 18:29:26 ezakimak: no. 18:30:03 yes, I got the @ on the wrong side of the brace. I wrote it using man-page-esque syntax. 18:30:19 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.220] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:31:24 ezakimak: we are spec obsessed in this channel. 18:31:41 ezakimak: it's by handling 99% of the common cases that you make rockets explode and sondes crash. 18:32:06 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.220] has joined #lisp 18:32:14 clintm [~clintm@c-98-232-33-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:32:59 well, sometimes a tradeoff ensues: code for 1hr to handle the 99.999% of cases your employer cares about or 10hrs to get that last minuscule amount... 18:34:10 -!- literal [hinrik@w.nix.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:34:11 log the error, and if it becomes a problem, then invest the requisite time 18:34:23 I want to make a sort of rules engine, the main purpose will be to look at a dataset and a proposed change and allow or deny that change based on the rules 18:34:31 ezakimak: did you finish your fixed record format parser yet? 18:34:38 not even close. 18:34:44 -!- joachifm [~user@2001:1ad8:c:a4b:2e27:d7ff:fea9:27b6] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:35:11 reading pcl ch 24 18:35:14 Rules should be easy enough for end users to define ... so a sort of rules dsl is what I'm looking for 18:35:21 Anyone know of any examples of this? 18:35:55 derekv, not I, but i'm interested in what you find--I could have a use for that myself in the near future 18:36:16 ezakimak: cool 18:36:39 There are examples floating around. Google Groups. 18:36:49 if this goes anywhere I think i'll share 18:36:56 i've been thinking of something similar to allow users to define custom permission sets 18:37:57 literal [hinrik@w.nix.is] has joined #lisp 18:38:17 ezakimak: right exactly , in my case the perfect example would be to define rules of chess... given a board state and a proposed board state, run the rules to determine if the board state is allowed 18:38:33 pjb: any paticular google group? 18:38:58 but the idea is almost the same, permissions vs legal moves in a game 18:39:08 probably comp.lang.lisp ? 18:39:53 -!- emacsuser [59d476e8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.89.212.118.232] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:42:21 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:43:31 isn't that usenet ? ohhh, usenet... ;) 18:43:44 it's on google groups now 18:43:48 -!- johs_ is now known as johs 18:43:50 -!- sickle [~Harrison@pool-108-20-196-69.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: sickle] 18:44:38 -!- Vivitron [~user@pool-173-48-170-228.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:45:38 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:45:53 -!- Buglouse [~Buglouse@176.31.24.226] has left #lisp 18:46:06 what everyone didn't want a phpbb site? ;) 18:46:57 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-90-138.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:48:05 Buglouse [~Buglouse@176.31.24.226] has joined #lisp 18:48:22 when do you actually need defgeneric? 18:49:19 starji [~starji@c-76-115-40-108.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:49:27 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 18:50:58 ezakimak: when you need non-standard method combinations. 18:51:05 minion: keene 18:51:08 keene: "Object-Oriented Programming in Common Lisp: A Programmer's Guide to CLOS" by Sonya E Keene. http://www.cliki.net/keene 18:51:57 plata [~plata@dyndsl-085-016-061-145.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #lisp 18:51:58 but for simple defmethods i don't need to bother, correct? 18:52:30 ezakimak: i also use defgeneric to document protocols, in particular when the methods are generated by macros. 18:53:31 do you mean to say you have your macros also generate a defgeneric also? 18:54:04 or you write a defgeneric when the only defmethods are macro-generated? 18:54:11 ezakimak: no. my macros define methods for generic functions, and i use defgeneric for the generic functions to document them, because the macros conceal them 18:54:27 makes sense 18:56:39 -!- plata [~plata@dyndsl-085-016-061-145.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 18:56:47 -!- bioevolgenec [~bioevolge@unaffiliated/bioevolgenec] has left #lisp 18:57:15 SrPx [b1289584@gateway/web/freenode/ip.177.40.149.132] has joined #lisp 18:57:27 What is a good lisp tutorial? 18:57:55 SrPx: PCL if you already know programming, Gentle introduction if not. 18:58:04 daimrod: thanks. 18:58:26 also try cl:aia if you want a book w/excercises 18:58:36 by shapiro 18:58:39 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:58:54 killerboy [~mateusz@afcv83.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 18:59:31 -!- dto [~dto@pool-72-70-40-118.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:01:01 ezakimak: I'll take a look on that too, thank you. 19:02:08 ezakimak: http://paste.lisp.org/display/128971 - 100% undocumented and not completely working, but maybe you get something out of it anyway. 19:02:32 c0atz1n [~c0atz1n@189.224.143.182] has joined #lisp 19:03:03 awesome, thanks 19:03:26 copperx [~rafa@adsl-75-54-98-59.dsl.elpstx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:03:35 -!- c0atz1n_ [~c0atz1n@189.224.144.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:07:52 slime question: sometimes when in slime and i invoke completion, and it comandeers the other buffer, but then I quit, it doesn't clear the buffer with the completion options. is there a binding to clear the generated completion buffer away? 19:08:20 atm I wind up having to other-buffer then kill-buffer 19:08:26 ezakimak: i must also add that i cannot recommend all stylistic choices i made in that file. the define-field-type macro is particularly nasty. 19:08:47 ezakimak: I just leave random buffers around. It's not like it's consuming resources. 19:08:52 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:09:15 well, but my source was showing in that buffer.... 19:09:41 just a minor irritation, i can live w/it 19:10:01 is there a way to cancel a completion that doesn't do that? 19:11:28 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.220] has joined #lisp 19:12:00 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:12:37 http://martinfowler.com/bliki/RulesEngine.html interesting 19:13:45 madalu` [~user@c-98-213-43-118.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:15:46 -!- madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:17:39 sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:19:39 Davidbrcz [~david@ANantes-151-1-215-145.w2-8.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:20:08 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:20:33 rvrebane [~rvrebane@valjapaas.vkhk.ee] has joined #lisp 19:21:24 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:21:34 derekv, interesting points. i see ready work-arounds for his two biggest misgivings 19:23:12 syrinx_ [~priestsyr@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has joined #lisp 19:24:29 I am thinking about how I'll need this to be multiplatform, the rules will have to be evaluate on at least three platforms , totally different languages 19:24:31 treyka [~treyka@85.234.199.185] has joined #lisp 19:24:44 _maybe_ i could make a portable library out of C dunno 19:24:52 ezakimak: now with local-time for time handling: https://gist.github.com/2394399/8b1a41266daac789909d199a0a74f2ff8bcbc771 19:24:53 why? if you create a DSL 19:25:04 Thats why I would create a DSL 19:25:11 Ever seen drools? 19:25:23 its... aweful doesn't describe it 19:25:56 -!- edgar-rft [~user@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has left #lisp 19:25:59 and why different languages? 19:26:04 Well, if we are talking about the same thing. 19:26:15 The main platform will be a server 19:26:23 and so I can pick that platform 19:26:49 But i'll be making iOS and android native clients, and i'd like to be able to run the rules clientside 19:26:55 sysfault [~exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has joined #lisp 19:27:15 I can put all that off as an enhancement but it needs to go into the design 19:27:23 -!- sysfault [~exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:27:25 hrm. there's a scheme engine written in javascript 19:27:32 sysfault [~exalted@c-69-141-108-208.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:27:32 -!- sysfault [~exalted@c-69-141-108-208.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 19:27:32 sysfault [~exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has joined #lisp 19:27:39 sounds promising 19:27:45 not the same as cl 19:27:47 nixfreak [~nix@mailserver.dayport.com] has joined #lisp 19:27:51 Thats OK 19:28:05 if you did it in js, you could use node.js 19:28:13 has anyone played around with light-table ide yet ? 19:28:24 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:28:24 js is afterall close to a lisp just with c syntax 19:28:26 I'm not married to CL just asking here as some sort of defacto place to ask... and asking helps me sort out my thoughts 19:28:41 right, i've been playing with node.js 19:30:08 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.90.115] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:30:10 -!- Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@50.Red-88-11-24.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Did you hear that ?] 19:30:22 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:30:29 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.64.242] has joined #lisp 19:31:27 oh man 19:31:43 just had a crazy idea 19:32:06 rules themselves are totally going to be part of the state 19:32:22 ;) 19:32:36 part of a DCG? 19:32:55 hi 19:33:17 pjb: came for the festival. Ain't ya? 19:33:33 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 19:34:24 ezakimak: definite clause grammar? 19:34:31 directed-cyclic-graph 19:34:46 i assume your rules will interdepend 19:34:58 ezakimak: I'm not certain yet 19:35:51 and to evaluate you'd have to clear a dirty/clean bit, copy the rule set, run it till it either converges or you detect infinite flapping 19:35:55 ezakimak: I think but am not certain that a DAG is sufficient ... really a tree with softlinks .. for the data that is 19:36:05 when it comes to rules I think i have a lot ot figure out 19:36:55 initially I was thinking that rules would only determin allow or deny, so they don't do transforms themselves. But that might be too limiting. 19:37:19 -!- syrinx_ [~priestsyr@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has left #lisp 19:37:33 apple disallows interpreters or otherwise running code not part of the app store package 19:37:52 so thats a consideration as well 19:37:56 but they do run javascript in their browser 19:38:11 Yes. They don't have to follow their own rules 19:38:31 In fact that is part of the motivation for their rules, make sure you can't build apps better than they can. 19:40:04 As soon as you have rules which are themselves mutating the data now we have a lot more complex situation ... so if that can be avoided, it'd be better.. but it might just simply be too limiting to do it that way 19:41:26 -!- clintm [~clintm@c-98-232-33-73.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: clintm] 19:42:23 you want it to kindof run in a functional way... if thats the right way to apply the word here 19:42:26 argantonio [~tony@5ac37a6c.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 19:43:10 well, it's a principle from "the art of unix programming": make programs dumb, and data smart 19:43:47 really what I want is to say, f( currentState , newState ) : { allow, deny } 19:43:50 so long as the DSL doesn't allow arbitrary code execution, I don't think it should be a problem for apple 19:44:00 right 19:44:17 i think there's two types of things for games 19:44:28 if it only calls predefined, built-in options 19:44:30 rules about what is a legal move 19:44:40 and thats what my f() describes 19:45:03 but you also might want "rules" that are assistance to the players 19:45:15 if you passed go, you get $200 19:45:49 the first kind of rule says "if the player passed go, and the player gained $200, thats ok" 19:46:17 that's not really a rule, that's assigning a metric to either newState or the transition from currentState to newState so you can compare them 19:46:58 rme [~rme@50.43.187.220] has joined #lisp 19:47:11 sounds more like a triggered event than a rule 19:47:11 homie`` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-154-203.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:47:45 Right, triggered events... 19:48:04 -!- copperx [~rafa@adsl-75-54-98-59.dsl.elpstx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: copperx] 19:48:16 -!- schmx [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:48:55 well, okay. so you can call them rules, but they'd be a separate namespace--evalute them to see what events/changes to effect rather than just is it permissible 19:49:08 Yea it wouldn't be stated exactly like that. But the idea is that you have a set of conditions which together describe what is a legal transition of the state 19:49:18 getting ot a bit though. dunno how tolerant #lisp is 19:49:28 right 19:49:54 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-194-86.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:50:13 Yea that is what I'm thinking , two types "rules" ... ok yep this is offtopic 19:51:22 bbiab 19:51:23 schmx [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 19:52:49 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-117-85.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:55:11 ISF_ [~ivan@187.106.49.167] has joined #lisp 20:01:57 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:03:48 -!- puchacz_ [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:03:53 Hi all. So when I read cltl2ed, I see obsolete paragraphs. Can completely remove they from book? For example, near the "functionp" http://www-prod-gif.supelec.fr/docs/cltl/clm/node73.html 20:04:08 Can I* 20:07:04 DDR [~chatzilla@d99-199-14-2.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 20:09:04 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:11:09 Guthur [~user@212.183.128.90] has joined #lisp 20:11:47 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable019.12-178-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 20:11:53 [6502], loke: I think the platonic ideal would be (define #'foo ...), (define (class foo) ...), etc. FWIW. 20:12:32 -!- Kynes` [~GTSpyVan1@adsl-75-0-10-84.dsl.renocs.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:13:07 Kynes` [~GTSpyVan1@adsl-75-0-9-125.dsl.renocs.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:16:08 [6502]: As for direct destructuring and multiple-values support in a LET-like operator, make sure you don't make the traditional mistake of making it implicit, make it explicit instead. Ex: (bind (((destructuring (foo bar)) form) ((values (a b)) other-form)) ...) Having those features be implicit is nonsense mental overhead when you don't use it, = hard to read. 20:16:19 <[6502]> Hexstream: In my toy lisp you can do (setf #'fibo ...) while this is not allowed in CL for some reason I don't know; however writing (setf #'square (lambda (x) (* x x))) looks a bit noisy 20:16:56 muriatic [~CrazyEddy@113.52.233.45] has joined #lisp 20:16:57 <[6502]> Hexstream: Yeah... i saw some destructuring library and the code can quickly become a mess 20:17:05 -!- muriatic [~CrazyEddy@113.52.233.45] has quit [Changing host] 20:17:06 muriatic [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 20:18:27 <[6502]> Hexstream: also a dedicated form for defining functions helps in recognizing when you're calling an undefined function (this is tricky to do with a regular lambda if you want to implement a recursive function) 20:18:56 FC^ [~F@201.19.93.6] has joined #lisp 20:19:29 -!- FC^ [~F@201.19.93.6] has left #lisp 20:19:42 ... What? (define (function my-function) ...) is pretty close to being a "dedicated form for defining functions"... 20:20:05 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 20:20:16 -!- tsuru`` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-25-21.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:20:21 tsuru`` [~charlie@adsl-98-87-43-16.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 20:20:41 -!- tsuru`` is now known as tsuru` 20:23:22 -!- madalu` [~user@c-98-213-43-118.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:24:11 -!- muriatic [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:25:44 -!- c0atz1n [~c0atz1n@189.224.143.182] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:27:37 c0atz1n [~c0atz1n@189.224.90.134] has joined #lisp 20:27:57 toekutr [~user@50-0-50-176.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 20:28:10 gaidal [~gaidal@h164n1-m-sp-d4.ias.bredband.telia.com] has joined #lisp 20:29:07 ainm [~ainm@130.Red-79-156-39.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp