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16:41:17 <dtw> Emacs and Common Lisp, Part 2: http://tromey.com/blog/?p=751
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17:02:45 <sellout> gigamonkey: Is there any way to just dump the manifest HTML to a directory?
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17:05:50 <nyef> Hello all.
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17:14:12 <oGMo> hrm, which branch is necessary for clx/glx to run? i have the sharplispers/clx fork on github and still get MATCH-ERRORs
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17:15:32 <madnificent> sellout: if not, there are web scraper tools which can help you with that.  at least i recall it existing over 10 years ago, it probably still does.
17:15:45 <oGMo> er, oh, might help if i had the right branch, thought it was merged
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17:22:10 -!- ozzloy_ is now known as ozzloy
17:23:41 <madnificent> i wonder why Andy Hefner didn't use ContextL for the plugins.  he links to it, but doesn't explain why it'd be inferior
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17:37:44 <asvil`> oGMo: about glx
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17:40:36 <asvil`> I found problem, it is in glx:choose-visual function.
17:40:42 <kenanb> i wonder where andy hefner found genera source
17:40:45 <oGMo> asvil`: yeah that needed changed to 32 too
17:40:47 <kenanb> he mentions them in a blog post
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17:41:23 <nyef> Ooh. Someone's messing with the CLX GLX?
17:41:27 <asvil`> not to 32, 32 is for my nvidia only:), I think choose-visual needs to be ported from c library.
17:41:55 <nyef> I think you need to pull the depth from the default depth for the screen you're trying to display on.
17:42:48 <oGMo> nyef: yeah too much is hardcoded in the demo, but it's a demo
17:42:51 <tfb> kenanb: it shipped with the system (most of it) so anyone with media has it.
17:42:59 <oGMo> at least the glx-fixes branch fixes open-default-display heh
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17:43:27 <nyef> Hang on, I'm calling glx:choose-visual without any depth information.
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17:43:45 <oGMo> trying to figure out if shaders are part of glx
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17:43:51 <nyef> ... They're not.
17:43:53 <oGMo> (obviously not yet implemented in clx/glx)
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17:44:05 <oGMo> nyef: how do you interface with that then?
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17:44:11 <kenanb> tfb: yeah, i meant if he has a genera running
17:44:21 <nyef> With a direct render context?
17:44:45 <kenanb> afaik it is probably still a pricy system to just get the media
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17:44:46 <tfb> kenanb: well, you'd need the HW (or an emulator which might exist now)
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17:45:11 <nyef> And dealing with a direct render context is a whole other can of worms.
17:45:16 <oGMo> hrm
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17:45:43 <nyef> Might be interesting to see if you can bind one of the Mesa / Gallium drivers from Lisp, while passing a direct render context from CLX.
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17:46:17 <nyef> But anyway, there's a reason why glxinfo reports separate GL versions for direct and indirect rendering.
17:46:32 <nyef> Because the protocol for indirect rendering is only defined up to a certain point in the evolution of GL.
17:46:34 <oGMo> nyef: not nicely from what i've seen
17:47:04 <nyef> If you want more examples of using CLX GLX, you might look for my game-stuff repository on clnet.
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17:49:51 <nyef> http://common-lisp.net/gitweb?p=users/abridgewater/game-stuff.git;a=blob;f=clx-interface.lisp;h=0a0ba9ae97c5dd9464edb4cffd4da9a74d999b33;hb=38c5b43172541a1ac0f280e558cc347c86ddae81;js=1
17:49:59 <kenanb> i remember seeing genera binary on some ftp two years ago, there was also some blog posts mentioning how to run it in a linux 64 system.
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17:50:22 <oGMo> actually not only that i think you may actually need to use the system libGL.so because for various drivers (e.g. nvidia) it provides that itself
17:50:43 <nyef> That's the file with the code to open a connection to the X server, create a window, and create a GL context in the window.
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17:52:17 <nyef> Yeah, so the basic options are to create a new CLX based around FFI to XLib or whatever its replacement is, or to create our own GL implementation based on the direct GL contexts and the kernel DRI infrastructure.
17:52:49 <oGMo> nyef: sure .. the clx/glx end seems fairly straightforward, but i was hoping that integrating shaders wasn't terribly painful so i could get some hardware postprocessing
17:53:06 <nyef> Unfortunately, it's terribly, terribly painful.
17:53:14 <oGMo> yeah, sadly, a clx-libx11 would be pretty useful
17:53:19 <nyef> Heck, even getting texture mapping working isn't particularly pretty.
17:53:51 <nyef> (I don't think game-stuff includes a texture-mapping demo, but I have one or two lying about somewhere...)
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17:54:23 <oGMo> a small wrapper around basic libX11 and libGL stuff would probably suffice for pure GL
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17:55:36 <oGMo> ...and cl-opengl is already cffi for that
17:55:48 <nyef> True, especially if you don't need all of the X11 interface.
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17:56:54 <Guthur> oGMo: have you checked out glop?
17:57:19 <oGMo> Guthur: not heard of
17:57:19 <Guthur> it provides a binding to libX11
17:57:50 <asvil`> glop works fine
17:57:54 <Guthur> its available via quicklisp
17:58:16 <nyef> At least CLX GLX no longer desynchs the request number tracking. That was a bad scene. The first time any request that has a server response component is sent after a render request is sent, BAM. Instant lockup.
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17:58:18 <oGMo> hrm, actually recently maintained too
17:58:34 <asvil`> I forgot to advise glop
17:58:41 <Guthur> oGMo: yep Patzy and a few others have been developing it
17:58:50 <oGMo> nyef: the _X_ server locked? that sounds more like an X bug :P
17:59:09 <nyef> No, the X server was fine, but the lisp client got wedged.
17:59:27 <Guthur> glop and cl-opengl would be my usual choices
17:59:51 <nyef> Because it would be waiting for a response to a message with sequence number X, but the server sends the response with sequence number X+n, where n is the number of render requests sent...
18:00:22 <oGMo> Guthur: interesting, will have to look closer, could easily handle the backend requirements for what i have in mind
18:00:31 <oGMo> nyef: oh, sure
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18:01:25 <nyef> Is there any documentation available on best practices and common patterns for working with SQL databases in Lisp?
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18:02:02 <p_l> I don't think so
18:02:18 <p_l> there might be stuff specific to some database interface
18:03:07 <nyef> Anything specifically for postgres databases, then?
18:04:09 <oGMo> surely not that much different than for other languages, just .. nicer
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18:04:28 <p_l> nyef: depends how much functionality you want, then
18:04:57 <p_l> I'm personally quite interested in using hu.dwim.perec
18:05:12 <nyef> Hrm...
18:05:17 <p_l> the main supported db engine is Postgres, and it has a lot of nifty stuff
18:06:16 <nyef> I'm currently using postmodern, and I've already run into limitations of its DAO classes, and have started building more and more complicated queries and whatnot.
18:06:42 <p_l> nyef: then perec might be for you, though beware the lack of docs
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18:06:57 <p_l> M-. often :)
18:07:12 <nyef> ... Anything where "lack of docs" is a concern is more than a little worrisome for me.
18:07:23 <p_l> nice thing is that perec has extendable query language
18:07:46 <p_l> nyef: well, lack of docs for anything more interesting
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18:08:13 <p_l> basic ORM stuff is documented (though you might need to sometimes change the code from examples a little)
18:08:37 <oGMo> does that provide a sql dsl?
18:09:18 <p_l> oGMo: there's a query DSL which is extensible through CLOS
18:09:37 <p_l> (query elements are defined through CLOS methods)
18:09:52 <oGMo> sounds a bit overcomplicated, but
18:09:54 <nyef> I'm almost at the point of having functions that return lists of field names required for various tasks, and using them to build the more complex queries.
18:10:45 <p_l> nyef: perec is *very* flexible, but some of that will require reading code. The code was rather easy to read once you got past cl-def/hu.dwim.def
18:11:34 <nyef> Okay, maybe I'll check it out soon, maybe not.
18:11:44 <oGMo> can easily translate sexps into sql .. i did something similar for ruby back in the day (where (and (= last-name "Foo") (> age 18))) ...
18:12:34 <nyef> I'm at a point in my current work project where I need to plan out future development, and changing the database interface is one of the things that could either screw things up horribly or make them a lot easier.
18:12:45 <p_l> oGMo: well, in Perec I once got to the point where I could have added, for example, (where (within-polygon (make-polygon .....) 'field)) ;)
18:13:29 <p_l> and within-polygon would get transformed into SQL code necessary to check if value of 'field is within polygon
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18:13:41 <oGMo> nyef: that shouldn't be different than any other language .. have a layer _over_ the db interface for the data, so when things change, your code doesn't
18:13:43 <p_l> (PostgreSQL GIS stuff)
18:14:03 <oGMo> p_l: interesting
18:14:23 <nyef> oGMo: And that's quite possibly the route I'll end up taking.
18:14:37 <oGMo> the worst thing i see people do is queries all over the place .. data model changes then you have to hunt for every instance in the code
18:14:55 <nyef> p_l: Ah! You've use the GIS stuff? I had some questions about that.
18:15:23 <p_l> nyef: I played on Postgres side with it, but ended up not coding anything in the end. I can dig up some of what I recall, though
18:15:34 <p_l> PostGIS is awesome, btw :)
18:15:59 <nyef> p_l: Mostly about being able to sort by distance from a point, and being able to combine sort-by-distance with a more traditional query over other fields.
18:16:34 <p_l> nyef: afaik it's possible with GIS code in Postgres, eventually with use of PostGIS
18:17:03 <nyef> Okay, so it should be doable, but I need to do some more looking myself?
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18:17:12 <p_l> Geo datatypes include indexing support, so you'd need to create indexes on those fields
18:17:25 <p_l> you'd probably need to code apropriate statements yourself
18:17:49 <p_l> perec makes it easy to add them without forking the library, IMHO, but it might depend on what you find working best
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18:18:02 <nyef> Right, right, but even having examples would be a good start.
18:18:25 <p_l> nyef: for SQL side, Postgres docs have a lot of examples (Postgres and PostGIS)
18:18:33 <p_l> I learned from them
18:18:38 <nyef> And postmodern allows for a certain degree of extensibility with s-sql, including a straight-up :RAW escape for passing raw sql.
18:19:01 <nyef> Wonderful. Thank you.
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18:19:27 <asvil`> nyef, if google translate works good for russian->english, there is my post about postgis and cl.
18:19:57 <nyef> asvil`: It's worth a shot. URL, please?
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18:22:18 <asvil`> a minute
18:23:26 <asvil`> http://translate.google.by/translate?hl=en&sl=ru&u=http://filonenko-mikhail.blogspot.com/2011/09/postgis-common-lisp.html&ei=c0ggT4npFYno-gaW04nEBA&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CB8Q7gEwAA&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dhttp://filonenko-mikhail.blogspot.com/2011/09/postgis-common-lisp.html%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3DSFT%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26biw%3D1278%26bih%3D871%26prmd%3Dimvns
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18:24:39 <nyef> Thank you, thank you.
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18:25:13 <asvil`> You need cl-wkb, I forked it for 3d supporting and cl-ewkb is not for you if you do not need z and m axes.
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18:30:38 <gigamonkey> sellout: not out of the box.
18:30:49 <gigamonkey> (re: dumping Manifest HTML)
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18:31:30 <gigamonkey> sellout: simplest way might be wget
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18:31:53 <p_l> asvil`: thank you for guiding me toward getting data from OpenStreetMap :D
18:31:56 <sellout> gigamonkey: Yeah, thanks  just wanted to make sure there wasn't something I was missing before I went out-of-band.
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18:36:13 <asvil`> p_l: oh, unfortunatly osm use old data storing method. They use x, y columns in tables. Fortunatly some services provide their own databases based on osm information. And they store data in postgis types. For exUSSR it is http://gis-lab.info
18:36:22 <asvil`> /use/uses
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19:18:56 <p_l> asvil`: Unfortunately, I need a way to calculate routes in area around aberdeen, scotland, so I need a map of roads and their types...
19:21:42 <pkhuong> p_l: google map requests.
19:22:03 <p_l> heh
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19:37:09 <asvil`> p_l, and if you need OSM data in postgis you can use converters.
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19:57:07 <wbooze> hmmm, i get an error on pathname completion in cmucl, but not in sbcl within the clim-listener.....
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20:00:03 <wbooze> http://picpaste.de/pics/Bildschirmfoto10-YOsI3R35.1327521588.png
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20:27:47 <jjkola> H4ns: ping
20:27:57 <gigamonkey> To find out if a symbol is external in a package I can do (find-symbol (symbol-name symbol) package) but is there a way to go directly from the symbol?
20:28:32 <jjkola> symbol-package?
20:29:02 <gigamonkey> jjkola: no, that will return the package for both external and internal symbols.
20:29:18 <jjkola> I see
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20:31:31 <jjkola> by the way, ironclad is now nearly fully working (only three test cases fails with :invert readtable case)
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20:33:13 <Xach> gigamonkey: I don't think so. External-ness is a property conceptually maintained by the package, not the symbol, and there isn't a function that tells you that by identity.
20:33:13 <fe[nl]ix> gigamonkey: no. a symbol only keeps track of its home package
20:34:41 <osa1__> hi lispers, I've just sent my first message to comp.lang.lisp and I thought I can also use some help from #lisp https://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_thread/thread/3002d02bfe42a87b#
20:37:21 <Xach> gigamonkey: a way that is probably not what you hand is do-external-symbols and breaking on a match...
20:37:22 <gigamonkey> Xach: True, it belongs to the package. I was just hoping to be able to say to the package, "Hey, I found this symbol of yours lying around--tell me about it."
20:37:27 <Xach> "had in mind"
20:37:52 <pkhuong> gigamonkey: you could traverse all the packages once and build an index, at least.
20:37:53 <Xach> gigamonkey: find-symbol is what i used a lot for that info
20:37:54 <gigamonkey> (nth-value 1 (find-symbol (symbol-name sym) (symbol-package sym))) is not so bad.
20:38:14 <gigamonkey> I mostly just wanted to make sure I wasn't spacing on anything.
20:38:24 <gigamonkey> Anyway, Manifest is getting the ability to browse internal symbols too.
20:38:37 <asvil`> osa1__: On first sight it is like closure-templates, but without alist, plist sources for data.
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20:40:52 <Xach> osa1__: You spelled {{ Mustache }} wrong, I think.
20:40:53 <osa1__> asvil`: yeah I didn't know closure-templates, it looks like they're similiar
20:41:25 <osa1__> Xach: where?
20:41:33 <Xach> first line of README
20:41:47 <osa1__> Xach: ah, right, thanks
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21:00:35 <oGMo> oh .. wow .. XRender optionally supports convolution filtering, and Xorg implements it
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21:01:58 *hefner* wonders if any drivers accelerate
21:02:18 <oGMo> the clx interface to this is of course much more accessible/useful than GL
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21:02:39 <oGMo> hefner: _ought_ to, but even doing it hardware/server-side is a big boost
21:04:25 <hefner> maybe, but last time I hit an unaccelerated path through xrender, it was so slow that you could watch it draw, like it was doing read/writes to video memory over the PCI bus
21:04:55 <oGMo> which was that?
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21:05:35 <oGMo> heh, it even does linear/radial gradients .. so much for having to implement something nontrivial
21:05:51 <hefner> I dunno, this was an older thinkpad several years ago, with either the radeon or the r300 driver. virtually everything other than functions used for AA text was unaccelerated and outlandishly slow.
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21:07:05 <oGMo> hefner: oh, yeah .. "years ago" and "radeon"
21:07:14 <hefner> it wasn't *that* long ago.
21:07:57 <hefner> and if you want to assume everyone has sane video drivers, you arguably might as well use OpenGL
21:08:01 <oGMo> well, clearly this requires appropriate testing, but it's quite something
21:08:39 <oGMo> hefner: unfortunately not a mature option at the moment
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21:09:15 <hefner> no, but probably as mature as it will ever be.
21:09:23 <oGMo> cl-opengl relies on glut, glop seems to kill the lisp rather easily, and glx doesn't implement shaders
21:09:49 <oGMo> actually there seems to be rather good work in that area recently
21:10:07 <hefner> I don't recall cl-opengl relying on glut.
21:10:14 <hefner> (I don't remember how I was using it, but whatever)
21:10:43 <hefner> oh, right, I wrote my own C xlib shim.
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21:12:08 <oGMo> that's what glop does .. seems like the most useful direction, but needs work.. xrender really does all this requires and is already implemented
21:13:56 <sykopomp> oGMo: cl-opengl does not rely on glut. cl-opengl can be used with cl-glut. Or with lb-sdl. Or with glop.
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21:16:59 <oGMo> sykopomp: yes, cl-opengl is a libGL wrapper, but those options aren't terribly different at the moment.. i'll poke around with glop more as time allows
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21:19:40 <hefner> Does slime have any understanding of readtables? I have some desire to use readtable-case :preserve in certain files but it's not worth it if SLIME gets confused.
21:20:15 <pkhuong> hefner: I think that's part of what tcr's named-readtable is about
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21:22:27 <phao> Hi. I have been seeing that many lisp implementations seem to focus too much on implementations of unix-like systems, and some don't even provide implementations for windows. Is there any special reason for that? Something on the standard that makes it difficult to write an implementation of CL for windows maybe...
21:22:30 <phao> ?
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21:22:56 <p_l> phao: nothing related to language
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21:23:17 <dlowe> phao: many people who work on open source projects like to also work on an open source system
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21:23:29 <dlowe> phao: there's windows versions for all the commercial implementations
21:23:29 <rme> I think it's mainly that the implementation hackers are more familiar with Unix, and probably like it better, too.
21:23:40 <p_l> phao: POSIX APIs are better known for many people involved
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21:24:07 <sykopomp> phao: windows sucks
21:24:08 <madnificent> phao: many sane devs use unix systems, few seem to prefer windows.  and that's where it starts and ends afaict.  lisp is flexible enough to support windows-like systems just as good as linux-like systems.
21:24:09 <nyef> phao: It's less expensive to run linux, so it's what most of the starving lisp hackers run.
21:24:47 <pkhuong> nyef: otoh, a lot of them work on macbooks.
21:24:48 <hefner> Visual Studio is so gross, it's amazing anyone develops on Windows.
21:25:03 <sykopomp> I don't believe anyone actually develops on windows.
21:25:06 <sykopomp> It must be a myth.
21:25:11 <p_l> phao: also, it's easier to discover availability of certain tools on *nix than on windows
21:25:12 <sykopomp> Surely, no one can be that masochistic.
21:25:14 <rme> Also, exception handling is quite a bit different on Windows than on Unix system, and that's an important thing that many lisp implementation innards use heavily.
21:25:37 <dlowe> I like the visual studio system for displaying parameters while you type
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21:26:07 <nyef> sykopomp: I did some windows lisp hacking back when the company I worked for required that I run windows, and I was a little bit bored and decided to prove a point...
21:26:27 <phao> nyef, what did you do?
21:26:46 <nyef> rme: I think SBCL/Win32 is STILL messed up if the same stack frame contains two unwind-protect blocks.
21:26:58 <pkhuong> nyef: afaik, yes.
21:26:59 *p_l* had windows natively running bash and such, so he isn't good example of statistical windows programmer
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21:27:33 <nyef> phao: Proved my point, and got it checked into upstream SBCL. Someone else has been taking it further recently. Might be akovalenko, miight not be.
21:28:32 <ehu> sykopomp: I develop CL code on windows.
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21:28:51 *ehu* is the exception that confirms the rule
21:30:03 <dlowe> no, no. If there's an exception, the rule is broken. Done for. Deceased.
21:30:06 <dlowe> It is an ex-rule.
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21:30:21 <bsamograd> dlowe: it's just sleeping
21:31:46 <fe[nl]ix> it's pinning for the fjords
21:32:15 <madnificent> ehu: great, you killed the rule!  bastard!
21:32:44 <ehu> good. I hate rules. less rules == better.
21:32:46 <foom> Eh....exception handling in linux and windows is actually pretty damn similar, it's just that sbcl doesn't attempt to integrate with the platform exception handling *at all* on linux, but does on windows.
21:32:52 <madnificent> look at it lie there, it's dead. D E D, dead!  (ok that doesn't work in writing)
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21:33:12 <bsamograd> it's just stunned
21:33:36 <madnificent> bsamograd: so... if ehu switches, it comes back to life?  (hear that ehu?! hear that!) ;)
21:34:05 <fe[nl]ix> good point
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21:34:24 <bsamograd> i think its resting
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21:34:40 *bsamograd* notices the dead horse
21:35:14 <pkhuong> foom: well, we have to go through SEH on windows, don't we?
21:35:15 <sykopomp> bsamograd: http://www.powderblueorbit.com/2wm3x36.gif
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21:39:34 <noth1ng> yum
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21:46:43 <nyef> pkhuong: Actually, there's "vectored exception handling" on more modern windows, but it's not universally available.
21:46:47 <nyef> Anyway, I'm gone.
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21:55:26 <mcox> Is this a bug? http://paste.lisp.org/display/127302
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22:09:32 <reb> mcox:  Not sure.  With SBCL I've only used nil for "returns no values" and (values foo bar &optional) for "returns exactly two things of type foo and bar".
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22:12:13 <Ralith> reb: what's the &optional for?
22:12:43 <mcox> reb: To me MY-FUNCTION2 contains the bug.
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22:13:36 <mcox> reb: The definition of typespec* in modified BNF notation means any number of typespec. If that actually means any POSITIVE number of typespec, then (CASE 1) should fail.
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22:16:03 <mcox> reb: I think the relevant section for typespec* is 1.4.1.2.1
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22:19:19 <reb> Ralith: If you leave out the &optional, as in (values foo), my understanding is that it means "returns one or more values and the first one is of type foo".
22:19:28 <Ralith> that seems strange
22:19:37 <Ralith> makes sense I guess though
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22:22:18 <mcox> Ralith: Are you sure? "The &optional and &rest markers can appear in the value-type list; they indicate the parameter list of a function, that when given to multiple-value-call along with the values, would correctly receive those values."
22:22:41 <Ralith> sure of what?
22:22:53 <mcox> Ralith: That it makes sense.
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22:23:34 <Ralith> mcox: specifically, I was referring to (values ...) being a minimum.
22:23:56 <mcox> Ralith: as in (values foo bar), no &optional?
22:24:23 <Ralith> yes
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22:25:31 <mcox> Ralith: Yes I agree. The &optional to me indicates that it is ok to return more then 2 values.
22:26:08 <reb> mcox: In words, what type are you trying to express?
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22:27:24 <mcox> reb: The return value of a function, where the function can return anything.
22:27:55 <reb> T
22:30:12 <reb> It's not a very useful declaration to use, since it's the default.
22:30:33 <mcox> reb: What is the difference between T and (values &rest t)?
22:32:15 <reb> I don't know.  I think T and (values T) are equivalent.
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22:33:13 <reb> I also think they are both equivalent to (values).
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22:34:22 <mcox> reb: Ok fair enough. Thanks for the input.
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22:38:46 <mcox> rep: (values) is a strange beast isn't it.
22:38:51 <mcox> rep: (values) => ; No value
22:39:02 <mcox> rep: (typep (values) t) => t
22:39:19 <Kazinator> (values (values 1 2 3)) -> 1
22:39:42 <sykopomp> Kazinator: well, that one isn't strange.
22:39:52 <Kazinator> None of it is strange, really.
22:40:05 <Kazinator> (values) -> nil is no stranger than (and) -> t
22:40:13 <sykopomp> mcox: (typep nil t)
22:40:18 <sykopomp> right
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22:41:50 <Kazinator> or (*) -> 1
22:41:51 <mcox> but (values) isn't nil is it? e.g. (defun my-function () (values)) is a function that returns nothing. NIL is something.
22:42:09 <Kazinator> (values) means no values, but if you try to pull a value out of it you get nil.
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22:42:20 <Kazinator> (cons 1 (values)) -> (1)
22:42:26 <sykopomp> I like (list* 1)
22:43:42 <Kazinator> (list* 1) is an important case for consistency with (append 1).
22:44:35 *sykopomp* didn't even know about (append 1)
22:44:39 <Kazinator> Also: (mapcon #'identity '(1)) -> (1)
22:45:18 <Kazinator> The last item output by the function in mapcon can be an atom rather than a list.
22:45:23 <Kazinator> Just like in append, etc.
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23:12:13 *maxm--* always fills somehow deficient because I find (iterate) easier to grasp then complex (mapcan/mapcon/mapcan) combinations
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23:12:54 <maxm--> I can candle one level fine, but recursion combined with several levels of mapcan/mapcon ends up with me doodling stack frames on paper
23:13:01 <maxm--> s/candle/handle
23:13:18 <chee> maxm-- can candle
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23:14:13 <maxm--> s/fills/feels too
23:14:22 <maxm--> damn english :-)
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23:15:27 *maxm--* still remembers cashier in McDonalds looking funny at him, when he boldly came up to the counter and loudly said "I'd like two cocks"
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23:15:56 <rme> heh, oooops.
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23:44:13 <dlowe> so... there's a guy who is attempting to translate the emacs C code into Common Lisp via a cpython script
23:45:34 <fe[nl]ix> where ?
23:45:58 <Xach> tom tromey is the guy
23:46:07 <dlowe> http://tromey.com/blog/?p=751
23:46:45 <dlowe> I have a better idea. We can translate all the data structures in emacs to CL by hand, then crowdsource a function-by-function translation :D
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23:47:10 <dlowe> I say this, of course, without knowing how many functions there are
23:47:18 <hefner> makes about as much sense as transporting the london bridge to arizona
23:47:51 <dlowe> Sure, but if you're going to do it, you could get a million people to each take a part and move it to arizona instead of lifting the whole thing by yourself
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23:49:52 <fe[nl]ix> lol, his blog is aptly named
23:51:41 <fe[nl]ix> the python gcc plugin is interesting
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23:54:52 <kenanb> is there a package that helps one working with stuff like fuzzy logic?
23:55:08 <kenanb> in my case it is not working, it is "toying" probably
23:55:17 <kenanb> but that is not the point :)
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01:40:13 <derrida> kenanb: i don't know anything about it and it seems to only have a debian package but did you see this: http://packages.debian.org/source/lenny/cl-rsm-fuzzy
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01:43:21 <kenanb> derrida: i saw it but there really is nothing else about it in the whole internet
01:43:38 <kenanb> the library itself is fuzzy :)
01:45:18 <kenanb> mcintire seems to wrote many libraries with cl-rsm prefix but there really is no source for them
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02:15:57 <felideon> bobbysmith007: herep
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04:14:47 <austinh> AsmCoder8088: why are you private messaging me? Are you a spammer?
04:17:17 <austinh> AsmCoder8088: I'm not interested in having a private conversation with you. Please stop.
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04:20:57 <austinh> Can a mod please ban AsmCoder8088?
04:21:40 <AsmCoder8088> i'm not the one using emacs
04:22:24 <sykopomp> austinh: use /ignore
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04:24:50 <austinh> sykopomp: Thanks. I should have thought of that.
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05:50:45 <pjb> dlowe: yesterday I sent Tom a comment saying that  he should do a source translation instead of a gcc backend one to get maintainable lisp code, but it still doesn't appear on the blog.  Usenet is much better!
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06:14:12 *austinh* just learned a valuable lesson in macro writing, the hard way
06:14:33 <austinh> The pain will help me remember, I'm sure.
06:15:50 <austinh> The short of it is, I used DELETE to parse some clauses, assuming that could only occur once. But FiveAM/EOS proved otherwise.
06:17:27 <pjb> Indeed, even compilers may expand macros several times.
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06:18:39 <austinh> That's it, I assumed the macro would only expand once. Now I know better.
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06:50:40 <kiuma> hello lispers
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06:52:06 <jjkola_work> can somebody please run ironclad tests as I'm getting different results on this computer than I did on my home computer so that I know what are the valid ones
06:52:50 <wbooze> i don't have it installed
06:53:12 <wbooze> had to fight with sb-aclrepl, rlwrap, readline, linedit stuff.....
06:53:33 <wbooze> and clim still is not optimal
06:56:28 <jjkola_work> here I'm getting tree-hash failures (5 of them) but on my home computer I had 3 failures and they were on sha related tests...
06:58:08 <jjkola_work> the one on my home computer is modified to work with :invert readtable case but the one here is pristine (and I did run it with default readtable case)
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07:01:37 <jjkola_work> Xach: ping
07:03:23 <jjkola_work> Xach: sorry, I found what I was looking for
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07:05:23 <jjkola_work> does Nathan Froyd frequent here?
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07:12:47 <jjkola_work> tested ironclad with latest git version (the one I had at home) and 26 failures were reported...
07:14:27 <jjkola_work> now I'm seeing same cases failing as I was at home
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07:25:25 <jjkola_work> reverted ironclad to v0.29 and it had same errors as I had home (:hmac, sha384/stream and sha224/stream)
07:25:46 <jjkola_work> so it looks like I fixed all readtable case related problems
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07:31:53 <mvilleneuve> good morning
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07:43:21 <jjkola_work> H4ns: ping
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07:50:45 <anonus> are there lua bindings for CL?
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07:51:29 <pjb> AFAIK, no.
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07:51:36 <anonus> sad
07:52:07 <anonus> i still need environment for untrusted code execution, and i have no idea how to implement it in CL
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08:05:22 <H4ns> jjkola_work: hm?
08:06:25 <jjkola_work> H4ns: I fixed ironclad to work with :invert readtable case, are you interested in getting the patches?
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08:07:00 <H4ns> jjkola_work: no, thanks.  i think it is a waste of time to use non-standard readtable case settings.
08:07:32 <jjkola_work> ok
08:08:23 <Phoodus> anonus: does lua support untrusted code execution?
08:09:08 <Phoodus> when we were looking for embedded untrusted scripting languages, none of them actually protected you from script code
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08:09:17 <Phoodus> in terms of memory & execution quotas
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08:13:34 <anonus> Phoodus: you can do lua kind of environment for untrusted code
08:14:10 <anonus> you can set memory limit, can set hook and count time of its execution
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08:14:33 <anonus> and you can change global table to allow script use only safe built-in procedures
08:15:37 <Phoodus> ok, the didn't have those first 2 features some years back
08:15:41 <Phoodus> they*
08:17:12 <anonus> maybe
08:17:22 <anonus> hmm
08:17:31 <anonus> oh, i remember
08:17:41 <anonus> you can't set limit for memory
08:17:58 <anonus> but you can define your own "alloc" function for lua engine
08:18:16 <anonus> by default it just wrapper for malloc
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08:19:10 <anonus> but you can redefine it and check that alloced memory doesn't exceed the limit
08:19:46 <Phoodus> shouldn't be difficult to port Lua to CL
08:20:02 <Phoodus> though obviously the lead time would be kinda big :)
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08:21:11 <anonus> i think it problems may appear when you try to bind CL's function to lua's one...
08:21:40 <anonus> s/it/that/
08:21:51 <pjb> You could also just link libecl with liblua in the same application, and write a couple of bridging FFI functions to call up lua from CL and CL from lua.
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08:22:11 <Phoodus> I'd keep it an interpreter, not make lua functions lambdas directly
08:22:50 <pjb> anonus: to run untrusted code from CL, just use the FFI and call an C function.  Guaranteed crash.
08:23:10 <anonus> >.<
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08:26:59 <wbooze> lol
08:28:52 <wbooze> oh man, i thought i would be maybe able to bootstrap a 64bit cmucl version, but noway, not with a 64bit gcc not even with a i386 gcc it is possible
08:29:11 <wbooze> and all the cross-scripts fail too
08:29:32 <wbooze> and setting sbcl on it barfs only nonsense....
08:30:55 <wbooze> i'm on slack64
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08:31:30 <wbooze> only the 32bit version runs, but using it to bootstrap a 64bit version is not possible
08:32:30 <wbooze> and even not the 32bit version is possible...there were some extra symbols found....which the c backend could not stip off or so
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08:32:55 <wbooze> like alloc16_eax or so
08:34:20 <wbooze> at least thats the first one ....
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08:37:21 <Blkt> good morning everyone
08:37:53 <wbooze> morning
08:40:06 <H4ns> wbooze: compiling cmucl is a rare skill.  and sbcl exists partly because compiling cmucl is so hard.
08:40:24 <wbooze> yes, yes i got taht now
08:40:56 <osa1> is there a way to specify type of a slot in a defstruct without giving to the slot a initial value?
08:41:11 <wbooze> maybe i should have a look at the sbcl scripts and see what they do
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08:42:24 <wbooze> i tried the amd64 and x86 cross scripts too
08:42:31 <anonus> anyone knows is clpython able to run django? %)
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08:53:19 <osa1> how can I read bytes from a string input stream?
08:54:28 <C-Keen> ,clhs read-byte
08:54:52 <H4ns> you can't read bytes from a string input stream.
08:55:22 <C-Keen> ah sorry, I misread the clhs entry
08:55:57 <H4ns> osa1: flexi-streams may help you.
08:58:32 <pjb> osa1: (with-input-from-string  (input "Hello")   (let ((byte (char-code (read-char input)))) (format t "Here is a byte: ~A~%" byte)))
08:59:00 <H4ns> pjb: why are you giving bad advice?
08:59:02 <pjb> or use babel to encode the character stream into a byte stream given a specific encoding.
08:59:20 <pjb> being bad or not depends on the context, on what is wanted.
08:59:29 <pjb> I don't like flexistream too much either.
08:59:49 <H4ns> pjb: if you present that as a "solution", then you should at least mention the constraints under which it is a solution.
09:00:08 <pjb> It should be obvious.
09:00:15 <hefner> since we don't know what osa1 is trying to do, we can argue all day about what constitutes a solution
09:00:22 <pjb> right.
09:00:27 <H4ns> Us
09:00:32 <H4ns> *shrug*
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09:02:08 <osa1> thanks, actually I'll read bytes from a file(with :element-type '(unsined-byte 8)) but for testing I thought using strings could be easier
09:03:14 Excalibur39 [~Excalibur@h194.28.30.71.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #lisp
09:03:14 <osa1> btw, I've recently wrote a library to render mustache templates and I'm open to all criticisms and advices to improve my lisp skills: https://github.com/osa1/cl-mustache
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09:05:09 <Excalibur39> I got a question having trouble doing something common lisp
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09:07:13 <pjb> (= (information-content (last-message Excalibur39)) 0)
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09:08:07 <Excalibur39> CG-USER(8): (last-name)
09:08:07 <Excalibur39> Error: LAST-NAME got 0 args, wanted 1 arg.
09:08:07 <Excalibur39> [condition type: PROGRAM-ERROR]
09:08:07 <Excalibur39> CG-USER(9): (defun middle-name (name)
09:08:07 <Excalibur39>               (first (middle name)))
09:08:08 <Excalibur39> MIDDLE-NAME
09:08:08 <Excalibur39> CG-USER(10): (middle-name '(John Peter Adam))
09:08:39 <Excalibur39> when I type line 10 comes up with error
09:08:54 <H4ns> Excalibur39: use paste.lisp.org please.
09:09:40 <pjb> We cannot help you, not knowing what the definition of MIDDLE is.
09:09:43 <asvil`> osa1: you can simplify your cl-mustache work by using https://github.com/nikodemus/esrap parsers generator.
09:10:27 <osa1> asvil`: hmm, I'll look into it, thanks
09:12:49 <Excalibur39> Isn't it defined by (defun middle-name (name) (first) (middle name))
09:15:14 <pjb> Excalibur39: this definition, given that first is CL:FIRST will lead to an error.
09:15:22 <pjb> And you still haven't defined MIDDLE.
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09:24:38 <pjb> Excalibur39: it might be useful for you to read the error message which comes with line 10...
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09:27:37 <Excalibur39> so why is it that this works (defun last-name (name) (first (last name))) (last-name `(Dr Doolittle))
09:27:51 <pjb> It didn't work, see line 8.
09:28:11 <pjb> CL:LAST is defined by in CL.
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09:28:16 <pjb> so (last-name `(Dr Doolittle)) works.
09:28:30 <pjb> but MIDDLE is not defined in CL.  So you have to define it yourself.
09:30:01 <asvil`> osa1: do you know about cl-closure-templates https://github.com/archimag/cl-closure-template ?
09:30:24 <Excalibur39> I thought (defun last-name <--defines it?
09:30:56 <Excalibur39> I am new to lisp and learning
09:30:59 <osa1> asvil`: yeah, you told me that about 10 hours ago.
09:31:06 <pjb> Excalibur39: yes.  I was still thinking about your line 8 above, where you forgot to give  an argument to last-name.  last-name is correctly defined.
09:31:22 <pjb> Excalibur39: MIDDLE-NAME is not correctly defined, since MIDDLE is not defined.
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09:31:53 <asvil`> yes, I just want to say that it's sources can help you sometimes.
09:34:07 <pjb> Excalibur39: furthermore, is (Dr Doolittle) a valid name.  From what I gather from your last-name and middle-name, names should be lists of three elements, the first being a firstname, the second a middle name and the last a surname.  Dr is not a first, name and (Dr Doolittle) doesn't contain three elements.  So your functions first-name, middle-name and last-name should probably signal an error when seeing that.
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09:35:34 <pjb> Excalibur39: now, of course you might want to rather process international names, with more variability in them. (José Eduardo Santos Tavares Melo Silva) is a valid name, but it hasn't a single "middle" name...
09:37:47 <Excalibur39> I am so use to C
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09:39:08 <Excalibur39> I am still trying to figure out the define part maybe I just don't get it...... Then I will figure out the logic factor of it
09:39:43 <jdz> Excalibur39: reading some introductory material might help...
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09:40:33 <Excalibur39> What would I search for to figure it out functions?
09:42:52 <jdz> Excalibur39: for instance http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/functions.html
09:43:02 <pjb> Check the books and tutorials referenced on http://cliki.net and browse the CLHS
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09:58:25 <daimrod> ping Neronus
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10:01:22 <pjb> pong /spoofing
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10:39:20 <twopi> is it just me, or is being asked to write a detailed technical specification of a product written by someone else, after its already been delivered, a big pain in the backside, not to mention inefficient?
10:39:48 <pjb> Yes.  I'd use the sources to generate the doc automatically...
10:39:57 <pjb> :-)
10:40:01 <twopi> The end product is for the client
10:40:08 <twopi> The documentation, I mean
10:41:01 <twopi> What they're actually wanting is a functional specification, after the fact
10:41:30 <twopi> Can I autoamtically generate that? :)
10:41:43 <twopi> I need 10,000 monkeys..
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10:43:48 <flip214> twopi: just use http://www.elsewhere.org/pomo/ or something similar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postmodernism_Generator)
10:44:57 <pjb> twopi: I  guess  it could be generated automatically, theorically.  It would be a nice AI project to implement.  Kind of like generating a summary of a text.
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10:46:52 <twopi> flip214: awesome :)
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10:47:51 <twopi> pjb: I think its more of a research project. In fact, not such a stupid one. Sort of like lossy compression, but for ideas/functionality.
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10:54:15 <Posterdati> flip214: hi
10:54:25 <flip214> oh no, not again
10:54:40 <Posterdati> flip214: sys
10:54:42 <flip214> sorry, you didn't say /sys .*/ yet
10:55:01 <flip214> ah f.....ine
10:55:17 <Posterdati> you write the magic number
10:55:53 <flip214> fce2
10:56:00 <Posterdati> 0xfce2
10:56:48 <twopi> ?
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10:58:47 <flip214> Posterdati: no 0x in commodore basic, AFAIR
10:59:05 <Posterdati> but no hexadecimal too
11:00:25 <jjkola_work> pjb: somebody has already implemented generating a summary of text, at least kind of, http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-16306742
11:01:10 <flip214> sys 252*256+226, or sys 101*641-2, or sys 5*11*11*107+3
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11:01:50 <twopi> jjkola: was actually after something that summarizes code.
11:02:04 <twopi> jjkola: guess i just need to convert the code to english, then i can summarize it
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12:31:05 <osa1> can anyone explain me this behavior of case: http://paste.lisp.org/display/127309
12:31:30 <H4ns> am i missing something or is it relatively hard to use (:select :* :from 'foo) in postmodern?
12:31:49 <H4ns> i.e. pomo:doquery does not seem to support "select *"
12:32:51 <H4ns> osa1: the key forms are not evaluated
12:34:28 <osa1> H4ns: how? when I pass a unbound variable to case, it gives an error, doesn't it have to eval key form to give this error?
12:34:36 <daimrod> osa1: (case 7 ((1+ 6) 1) NIL
12:35:14 <daimrod> (case 7 ((1+ 6) 1)) *
12:35:18 <H4ns> osa1: (case 7 (foo t)) does not err for me.
12:35:38 <osa1> H4ns: yeah sorry, I tried (case foo (7 t)) where foo is unbound
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12:35:57 <osa1> ok, so is there a workaround for this? I want the key forms evalueated
12:36:12 <H4ns> osa1: cond
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13:04:46 <el-maxo> hiho
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13:07:08 <Kenjin> antifuchs: just noticed now you're on the Stripe team :)
13:07:47 <pjb> osa1: notice that in C neither you can pass expression as case labels: switch(foo)[ case 1: /* ok */ case bar: /* error */ }
13:08:07 <Xach> H4ns: do you mean specifically with doquery?
13:08:31 <pjb> osa1: but just reading clhs case should have been enough.
13:08:37 <H4ns> Xach: yes.  but it seems that doquery is the only way to read bulk data
13:08:43 <H4ns> Xach: (unless i'm missing something)
13:08:58 <H4ns> Xach: (and i can always use cl:compile, but it kind of sucks)
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13:11:07 <jdz> H4ns: i have some (sql-compile `(:select * :from ... :where ...)) in my code
13:11:47 <jdz> H4ns: it's used together with query-dao, but should work with query, too...
13:12:02 <H4ns> jdz: sure, that'll work, but i can't load the whole table into memory
13:12:18 <H4ns> jdz: i need to iterate over the rows one by one.
13:12:40 <Xach> H4ns: so you'd just want a list or plist per row incrementally?
13:12:51 <H4ns> Xach: [x] yes
13:13:11 *Xach* does not know of a way to do that with the existing api but it sounds reasonable
13:13:38 <H4ns> Xach: it does not seem to be possible with the existing api.
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13:16:42 <jdz> H4ns: it works for me with sql-compile and doquery...
13:17:16 <jdz> H4ns: well, if doquery is not what you need then yeah
13:17:16 <H4ns> jdz: doquery wants the names of the columns spelled out, or am i wrong?
13:18:18 <H4ns> jdz: so if i don't know about the number of columns in advance, i loose.
13:18:31 <jdz> H4ns: yeah, looks like it
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13:21:05 <jdz> H4ns: Marijn is always happy to accept patches, though
13:21:20 <jdz> H4ns: and you only want a dumber version of doquery :)
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13:26:03 <H4ns> jdz: i'll update doquery when i encounter the problem again.  for now, i'm using cl:compile
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14:00:59 *hefner* weighs the effort of evaluating cl-png vs. png-read vs. skippy vs. hacking up a crappy BMP reader/writer
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14:02:15 <fe[nl]ix> hefner: don't forget opticl
14:02:39 <Xach> A crappy BMP reader/writer would take about 23 minutes
14:02:51 <Xach> evaluating would take at least 38
14:04:43 <Kryztof> yeah, go for ppm for simplicity
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14:15:05 <hefner> 38 minutes is a long time!
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14:30:23 <twopi> 23 minutes over
14:31:03 <hefner> that leaves me with another 15 minutes to integrate skippy.
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15:11:50 <maxm-> every project that I had started that should have taken 20 minutes had been at least a few hours
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15:12:14 <hefner> yeah, I'm usually off by a factor of three or four
15:12:19 <maxm-> that includes the script to cleanup my maildir spam folder, which malfunctioned and deleted all my mail, followed by 2 hour backup restore session
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15:14:38 <dlowe> to estimate, double the number, then move to the next unit of time
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15:14:56 <hefner> I don't know how long it's been, but I just finished.
15:15:05 <dlowe> so a 20 minute project should have 40 hours allocated to it
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15:17:29 <hefner> Hah, I like that. Better safe than sorry.
15:17:55 <dlowe> it also reflects the amount of time needed to make a decent polished creation
15:18:50 <oGMo> hofstadter's law: it always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account hofstadter's law
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15:24:55 <loke> Sometimes I end up creating functions that contains fairly large sub-functions using FLET or LABELS. I find the resulting code to be somewhat messy (since it's not immediately visible that the the FLET forms are actually functions in their own right). What is a good strategy to make such code more clear (apart from the obvious solution of putting in more comments)
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15:25:59 <dlowe> don't use flet or labels so much
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15:26:28 <loke> dlowe: yeah, obviously, but it's annoying when the code depends on lots of lexically bound variables.
15:27:21 <ehu> loke: use more parameters.
15:27:44 <loke> ehu: :-)
15:27:50 <loke> Thanks. I'm doing that right now
15:27:50 <dlowe> yeah, I think the messiness here is because your control flow is messy
15:28:02 <loke> I'm starting to vomit at the massive flet blocks
15:28:23 <loke> dlowe: Yep, you're right
15:28:26 <loke> I should fix that
15:28:33 *sykopomp* wonders why CL doesn't have an operator for locally binding provided objects in the function namespace. 'Safety'?
15:28:35 <ehu> loke: think of ways to get a better/shorter/different algorithm?
15:28:36 <H4ns> loke: if you close over variables, rethink your strategy.  they're not better than globals.
15:29:16 <sykopomp> loke: paste example code.
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15:30:49 <loke> Here:
15:30:50 <loke> http://code.google.com/p/cl-gdata/source/browse/src/docs-list.lisp#89
15:31:04 <ehu> sykopomp: isn't that exactly what flet simulates?
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15:31:17 <loke> The %upload-document-send-metadata was up until just now also in the LABELS body
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15:33:17 <sykopomp> ehu: I mean something lower-level that works more like LET so you can (lflet ((test (partial #'> 5))) ...)
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15:39:25 <MikeSeth> hm
15:39:35 <MikeSeth> how do they do sandboxed execution in CL?
15:39:44 <dlowe> they don't.
15:39:45 <H4ns> MikeSeth: who is "they"?
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15:39:57 <dlowe> give up now while you haven't thought about it much.
15:40:18 <MikeSeth> dlowe: so if you want to run foreign code in a restricted environment, what's the usual way to do that?
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15:40:40 <dlowe> MikeSeth: start a process in a chroot jail with a non-privileged user
15:40:47 <dlowe> and hope you don't run into any real hackers
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15:42:35 <dlowe> or even, start a process in a VM and hope you don't run into any real hackers
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15:43:20 <MikeSeth> I imagine I'd want to run it in the same process, so that'd kind of defeat the purpose
15:43:37 <dlowe> I think you've given up all hope of security, then, in any language
15:43:39 <H4ns> MikeSeth: common lisp does not support sandboxing.
15:43:48 <dlowe> nothing supports sandboxing :p
15:43:57 <dlowe> I'm not sure why it even comes up
15:44:19 <MikeSeth> H4ns: couldn't one institute some sort of control over namespaces and package loading to do an effective imitation?
15:44:24 <H4ns> MikeSeth: no.
15:44:30 <sykopomp> dlowe: racket supports sandboxing. No? :)
15:44:40 <oGMo> because having sandboxing would be really nice, but the solutions are still iffy
15:44:43 <H4ns> MikeSeth: it is something that has been tried often and has never ucceeded.
15:44:51 <H4ns> succeeded.
15:45:00 <sykopomp> MikeSeth: you can't really restrict namespace access in CL very effectively.
15:45:03 <dlowe> I told you to stop before you'd thought about it :p
15:45:08 <sykopomp> "why are you even bothering" tends to be a better solution.
15:45:19 <oGMo> MikeSeth: in CL, it's fairly impossible .. a VM is your closest bet, and actually pretty neat once you get thinking aobut it
15:45:40 <dlowe> sykopomp: I bet it leaks
15:46:04 <sykopomp> dlowe: I wonder. It's pretty extensive.
15:46:08 <MikeSeth> well I thought along the lines of what if there was a generic database engine that isn't restricted to one query language and a single way to store and access data.. and then I was like hm, cons cells! And then.. well here I am.
15:46:48 <dlowe> MikeSeth: you can still do that without sandboxing :p
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15:46:54 <sykopomp> MikeSeth: You mean like chapter3db? ;)
15:47:06 <dlowe> MikeSeth: you just have to actually implement the language.
15:47:07 <oGMo> definitely, though at this point you should be thinking about exactly what problem you're trying to solve
15:47:26 <MikeSeth> it's purely hypothetical, I am not actually doing anything in this direction
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15:47:43 <MikeSeth> sykopomp: never heard of it
15:48:00 <sykopomp> MikeSeth: chapter 3 of PCL has a list-based 'database' ;p
15:48:05 <MikeSeth> sykopomp: ah.
15:48:46 <MikeSeth> I was having a smoke time argument with a coworker who thinks storing everything in tables is a decent idea
15:49:44 <sykopomp> it's a pretty decent idea.
15:49:44 <sykopomp> I like it.
15:49:53 *MikeSeth* gives sykopomp a bunch of XML documents
15:50:06 <oGMo> MikeSeth: not familiar with relational algebra eh?
15:50:15 <oGMo> xml is horrible
15:50:42 *sykopomp* signals a garbage-received error.
15:50:45 <oGMo> the anti-lisp, really
15:51:03 <sykopomp> XML is pretty lispy in a shitty way.
15:51:05 <MikeSeth> oGMo: if it was up to me I'd mutate the public international law to make XML use a crime against humanity
15:51:12 <oGMo> a poor implementation of the old hierarchical databases they used before real rdbms's
15:51:14 <sykopomp> that said, XML is not database storage.
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15:51:52 <sykopomp> MikeSeth: at my last job, they didn't even bother with something like XML to send us data.
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15:52:05 <MikeSeth> sykopomp: XML might very well to be stored IN databases
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15:52:12 <sykopomp> I had to take dozens of documents in .doc and .xls format and convert them to usable data.
15:52:15 <MikeSeth> s/to be/end up being/
15:52:18 <oGMo> MikeSeth: it is, it's just not illegal. that said, what do rdbms's not do?
15:52:31 <sykopomp> the .docs, by the way, weren't really meant as text files. They had tables inside them.
15:52:37 <ehu> oGMo: unstructered data?
15:52:42 <sykopomp> the other file formats were fixed-width :)
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15:52:49 <oGMo> ehu: what kind of unstructured data?
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15:53:16 <oGMo> all data is structured, even if it's a 5GB true random integer
15:53:28 <MikeSeth> oGMo: strict schema structure is a problem, and you'd often want to index on partials of a field content, though I imagine the latter is more of an implementation issue in open source SQLs
15:53:28 <sykopomp> ehu: unstructured data sounds like useless data. Flexibility is not hard to implement in rdbmses
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15:53:36 <sykopomp> and the flexibility of NoSQL is, imo, overrated.
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15:54:01 <oGMo> MikeSeth: you can _always_ make a schema to support flexible data of some variety
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15:54:38 <oGMo> and you can easily index fields just about any way you want in a decent database (e.g., pgsql)
15:55:22 <sykopomp> pgsql is the only rdbms, though, isn't it?
15:55:27 <oGMo> and you should never be dealing with SQL or table structure directly, but a nice API ... lisp can certainly help here
15:56:01 <sykopomp> oGMo: beware ORMs. Doing SQL with S-SQL is Good Enough
15:56:05 <eli> dlowe: If you're thinking of leaking bindings, then it's irrelevant, since the sandboxing is done by dynamic restrictions rather than a limited namespace -- for example, you still have `delete-file', but you won't be able to use it.
15:56:15 <sykopomp> ORMs are just asking for trouble, and not even necessary.
15:56:20 <oGMo> sykopomp: oracle works, if you don't mind paying a horrific amount of money for lovecraftian evil
15:56:39 <sykopomp> oGMo: I'm sorry, your irc message came back as blank.
15:56:49 <oGMo> sykopomp: :)
15:56:53 <sykopomp> you probably mentioned a word that I have decided to filter out of reality.
15:57:07 <dlowe> oGMo: I think mostly rdbms's don't handle hierarchical data well at all
15:57:29 <loke> tell me about it... I have to suffer Oracle right now
15:57:34 <oGMo> sykopomp: i have yet to find an ORM that works well .. but you can always wrap the base SQL interaction in a decent api
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15:57:39 <sykopomp> dlowe: I've done pretty heavily-hierarchical data in psql.
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15:57:50 <dlowe> sykopomp: that doesn't mean it's a natural fit
15:57:57 <sykopomp> ...yeah
15:58:13 <oGMo> dlowe: er, it works fine, assuming you have a database which can index it
15:58:15 <MikeSeth> oGMo: Ruby on Rails murdered ORMs
15:58:17 <dlowe> sykopomp: you can't, for instance, query for the descendants of a node
15:58:18 <sykopomp> oGMo: S-SQL is great. I love it.
15:58:21 <oGMo> i am not sure if PgSQL can
15:58:32 <Neronus> Xach: Clesh kindly asks to be included in quicklisp; if there are any formalities I have to take care of, please let me know
15:58:33 <oGMo> sykopomp: i'll have to check it out, but i happily don't do much SQL at the moment
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15:58:49 <dlowe> oGMo: oh, what's the SQL for querying recursively for all the descendants of a node in my table?
15:59:05 <oGMo> MikeSeth: yes, as much as i liked ruby, RoR was a lot of half-assed ideas
15:59:32 <ehu> dlowe: there's no such item in the standard
15:59:40 <sykopomp> dlowe: isn't that what WITH RECURSIVE is for?
15:59:40 <ehu> dlowe: pgslq uses RECURSIVELY
15:59:44 <oGMo> dlowe: in oracle there's CONNECTED BY, but i'm not sure in PgSQL
15:59:52 <oGMo> RECURSIVELY? cool
15:59:52 <ehu> oh. WITH RECURSIVE, indeed.
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16:00:05 <sykopomp> http://www.postgresql.org/docs/current/static/queries-with.html
16:00:14 *sykopomp* has never used WITH RECURSIVE
16:00:17 <ehu> oGMo: beware of the performance impact
16:00:24 <sykopomp> there's a graph search example, though
16:00:27 <dlowe> neat. yay progress
16:00:33 <oGMo> obviously, this is why you don't do random queries in code, but just have a function that does (find-child-of thing :matching other-thing) or similar
16:00:45 <ehu> dlowe: beware of the perf impact
16:01:10 <oGMo> ehu: no recursive indexing?
16:01:50 <oGMo> an unindexed hierarchical query is always a performance hit otherwise; basic algorithms
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16:05:12 <oGMo> with recursive appears exceedingly flexible .. full graphing
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16:06:26 <dlowe> I stand by my statement. It's still not a natural fit
16:07:37 <oGMo> it's no less a natural fit than any language or expression which deal with a data structure with fixed fields that implements something hierarchical
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16:09:48 <ehu> oGMo: no idea how it really works
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16:29:17 <ThomasH> Greetings lispers
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16:40:04 *j_king* waves.
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16:40:32 <p_l> 'afternoon tmh
16:41:23 <sykopomp> o/
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17:06:49 <Fade> heya, j_king
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17:13:09 <Xach> Neronus: it helps me a lot if you create a github issue on quicklisp-projects
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17:30:52 <Neronus> Xach: OK
17:32:54 <madnificent> pjb: are you following http://tromey.com/blog/ wrt an elisp environment within common lisp?  his approach is different than what i think you wanted to do.
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17:36:39 <pjb-> madnificent: I posted q comment yesterday but it still hasn't appeared.  Usenet works better...
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17:37:24 <daimrod> it's a moderated group :)
17:37:31 <madnificent> pjb-: just wanted to make sure you saw it.  do you expect such an approach to work?  if it would, manual translation could follow later (and it would be a good way to gain experience)
17:38:46 <pjb-> The gist of my comment is that the lisp code  obtained is not maintainable and can't be accepted by emacs maintainers.  You have to do a source translation.
17:39:35 <df_> I take it you're aware of LICE?
17:39:51 <ThomasH> My preference would be an emacs-like editor built from the ground-up in CL with an elisp translator. I don't care if it is based on hemlock or an entirely new effort.
17:39:52 <pjb-> df_: and HEMLOCK, etc.
17:39:56 <madnificent> pjb-: oh yeah, that's true.  i'd have assumed that we could then start to translate manually (from the original C to lisp) so that it would be maintainable again.
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17:40:10 <pjb-> df_: the problem is that for widespread acceptance, we need to support the existing emacs packages.
17:40:15 <df_> pjb-: LICE was more of a direct port of gnu emacs though, aiui
17:40:31 <daimrod> df_: do you have a link ? the url on Cliki 404.
17:40:54 <df_> http://repo.or.cz/w/lice.git/
17:40:58 <pjb-> madnificent: emacs is not written in C, but in some higher level language (eg. the DEFUN C macro).  This is what would allow us to do a semi-automatic source level translation.
17:41:53 <madnificent> pjb-: well, from there on onward, we could do a manual translation from whickedy emacs higher level language to lisp.  work up the stack fromthe bottom up.
17:42:07 <daimrod> uh no commit since 2007 :(
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17:42:38 <df_> daimrod: yeah, they gave up on it, too much boring grunt work I think
17:42:45 <madnificent> note: i really don't know if the automatic approach is a feasible start.  i'm guessing it could make sense as you'd be working on something that already works, instead of something that doesn't exist yet.
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17:42:47 <pjb-> madnificent: source crowding the translation would be fine if there was that many interested lisp programmers...
17:43:52 <madnificent> it could be a cool thing for newer lispers that want to do something useful whilst learning lisp.  they can't all write a web framework.
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17:49:10 <jmckitrick> Question for you guys.  What aspects of CL really need to be understood to say I am not just a programmer who happens to use CL?  How can I know when I have achieved that goal?
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17:49:40 <dlowe> jmckitrick: show completed projects
17:49:56 <dlowe> nothing else matters.
17:50:12 <pjb-> show a completed implementation of CL.
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17:50:26 <dlowe> that's kind of a high bar :p
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17:50:41 *daimrod* shows Clisp to pjb.
17:50:43 <pkhuong> You don't need to grok CL to write an implementation.
17:50:46 <Guthur> i show sbcl
17:50:55 <jmckitrick> I just read an interesting article here... http://drupal.technicat.com/writing/lisp.html
17:50:57 <dlowe> anyway, what's wrong with being a programmer who happens to use CL?
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17:51:15 <Guthur> dlowe:  people look at you funny?
17:51:22 <jmckitrick> It said something that made me think....
17:51:41 <dlowe> It says "The open source versions don't have everything you really need, e.g. multithreading" so I'm disinclined to believe it
17:51:52 <jmckitrick> Two comments...
17:51:54 <jmckitrick> The unique features of Common Lisp are largely unappreciated, even by Lisp devotees. I've seen macros used a lot, but mostly to inline code - few Lisp programmers think abstractly enough to define their own language within a language. I think CLOS is still the best object system out there, but most Lisp programmers I've seen are content to use lists.
17:51:56 <jmckitrick> and...
17:52:04 <jmckitrick> In a sense, Lisp was too easy. A programmer who couldn't deal with C pointers could still hack together code in Lisp. I've seen plenty of prototypes that demoed well enough to get funding and turn into serious projects, then stall because the software was held together with string and bailing wire.
17:52:25 <Guthur> people do actually think I am strange for mentioning and using Lisp
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17:53:05 <jmckitrick> So I wonder... am I using macros effectively enough?  What's wrong with lists and closures instead of CLOS?
17:53:06 <ehu> jmckitrick: as a lisp programmer, I enjoy using lists for the things that matter: holding short lists of objects.
17:53:07 <Guthur> i are maybe it's just me, hehe
17:53:33 <ThomasH> jmckitrick: If the lisp programmers you've seen only us lists, you need to look harder. I often crank out prototype stuff with lists, but eventually, I always end up with objects and generic methods.
17:53:34 <jmckitrick> And how can I make sure I'm not 'hacking together code' in Lisp, that has become a serious project, but will stall because it's poorly written?
17:53:57 <ThomasH> jmckitrick: It's called factoring.
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17:54:06 <pkhuong> jmckitrick: false dilemma to me.
17:54:11 <oGMo> troll
17:54:14 <pjb-> jmckitrick: it's easier to do in lisp than in other languages.
17:54:23 <jmckitrick> ThomasH: That's what I was thinking as well.  Prototyping with lists is great.  I'm doing it now.  But after this first delivery date, I'm probably going to refactor into objects.
17:54:42 <Odin-> jmckitrick: Sounds like a set of very questionable subjective positions...
17:55:00 <oGMo> really, if you have to ask what to do if your code is poorly written, you may have other issues
17:55:01 <jmckitrick> oGMo: Not at all, and I'm sorry if you think so.  I just like hearing serious Lispers dispel comments like these.
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17:56:06 <jmckitrick> pkhuong: Which is the false dilemma?
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17:56:09 <ThomasH> jmckitrick: My problem is trying to avoid lists when they're actually appropriate because I'm constantly worried about consing. I've gotten better about that because in the coding I do, there are many instances where LOOP-COLLECT is exactly what is called for.
17:56:09 <oGMo> jmckitrick: you do what you do anyplace else .. profile, fix .. there are some great lisp tools there
17:56:21 <jmckitrick> pjb-: What's easier in lisp?
17:56:30 <sykopomp> jmckitrick: lists, closures, and CLOS are all useful in their rightful place.
17:57:03 <oGMo> like anything else you can write horribly bad code the only solution for is rewriting
17:57:22 <pkhuong> jmckitrick: you can hack stuff together and refactor as it gets bigger.
17:57:32 <oGMo> but i've found that optimization from "i cons a lot" to "this is fast now" doesn't really require massive changes unless your code was horrible to begin with
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17:58:03 <jmckitrick> So maybe what he meant then was he's seen things done in lisp that were a monster hack, and never refactored to use CL features more effectively, perhaps?
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17:58:48 <oGMo> probably, there are bad mockup/demos in any language .. in some cases, entire languages dedicated to bad demos
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17:58:50 <pkhuong> I don't care. I just code.
17:58:55 <jmckitrick> Understanding the condition system better is one of my goals.
17:58:57 <oGMo> exactly
17:59:01 <oGMo> ...
17:59:11 <madnificent> aaaaarg the picture in that link misses a closing paren :(  this will hunt me all day
17:59:36 <oGMo> photoshop
18:00:05 <ThomasH> madnificent: Thanks for pointing that out, I hadn't noticed.
18:00:22 <ThomasH> ^^^ sarcasm ^^^
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18:01:41 <jmckitrick> That's why I have mixed feelings on that Hoyte book, Let Over Lambda, as well as Graham's On Lisp.  I'm torn between tried and true OOP, versus learning the more macro and closure approach.
18:02:01 <ThomasH> jmckitrick: You're confused
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18:02:15 <jmckitrick> ThomasH: probably
18:02:19 <flip214> jmckitrick: IMO the LOL way is nice to know, but I'd use CLOS/MOP every time
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18:03:05 <jmckitrick> ThomasH: about what?
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18:03:55 <Guthur> closures can be brilliant examples of encapsulation
18:04:14 <Guthur> a notion that gets lumped in as an OOP'centric principle
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18:04:26 <jmckitrick> Guthur: That's a good point.
18:04:46 <ThomasH> jmckitrick: That CLOS and macro/closure solve the same problem.
18:04:59 <flip214> ThomasH: do you know let over lambda?
18:05:07 <jmckitrick> I'm finding a lot more ways to use them than when I started CL.
18:05:11 <flip214> doug _does_ oop via macros in there
18:05:13 <pkhuong> first-class functions are degenerate single-dispatch objects. They're convenient, but giving names to implicit protocols never hurts.
18:05:49 <jmckitrick> pkhuong: Well put.
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18:06:46 <pkhuong> and then there's first-class generic functions to consider.
18:07:20 *sykopomp* has been thinking again lately about first-class protocols.
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18:08:24 <ThomasH> flip214: I can't get past the ToC. I'm sure there is something claimed to be an OOP in LoL, but the only time I see things like that it's evident that the person thought writing a half-assed OOP system was easier than learning the CLOS.
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18:10:04 <jmckitrick> ThomasH: He builds a lot on Graham's book, using macros, anamorphic macros especially, nad just really dives into the possibilities.
18:10:14 <flip214> ThomasH: Well, I think it's very nice to see the power of closures and macros ... much to learn there
18:10:18 <jmckitrick> Not saying they are all useful or suggested, but very interesting.
18:10:18 <flip214> even what should not be done
18:11:45 <ThomasH> flip214: Closures are great, I use them when appropriate, but I don't see the benefit is using them exclusively.
18:11:52 <ThomasH> That is the problem with LoL.
18:12:59 <flip214> ThomasH: don't see LOL as "do it this way", think of it as a book for learning.
18:13:00 <Guthur> ThomasH: I don't think there is one great 'source' for anything
18:13:04 <Guthur> you take what you can from it
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18:13:21 <flip214> like maths ... there are things that beginners get explained, and later they learn that there are even better ways
18:13:36 <Guthur> ...anything regarding CL
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18:15:49 <jmckitrick> The book helped me learn to write better macros.  I'll never use them the way he does, but I still learned a lot.
18:16:19 <jmckitrick> That's my point.  I'm looking for metrics that I am using CL effectively, and not just as Yet Another Programming Language.
18:17:02 <jmckitrick> Not metrics.... milestones, concepts, skills, etc.
18:17:04 <ThomasH> The CL refrences that I go to frequently : PCL, Keene, and the Hyperspec. I keep "Object-Orient Programming: The CLOS Perspective", Norvig, and AMOP handy, but am generally not sophisticated enought to use the AMOP.
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18:17:51 <jmckitrick> I should probably get the Norvig book, and maybe AMOP.  The others I use as well.
18:18:34 <ThomasH> I have written a few indispensable macros, but the only time I really need macros is when I want to control evaluation. Otherwise, functions work pretty well.
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18:19:33 <gigamonk`> Anyone tried the new manifest with internal symbol support?
18:19:51 -!- gigamonk` is now known as gigamonkey
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18:20:33 <sykopomp> I still think the biggest lesson in AMOP is not so much about the MOP itself, but how to design an actual object-oriented application.
18:20:38 *sykopomp* still hasn't read Keene.
18:20:51 <ThomasH> I actually learned CL from ANSI Common Lisp, it still sits on the shelf, but I feel that the approach Graham presents is antiquated.
18:20:57 <jmckitrick> ThomasH: When I find myself writing the same function over and over, with only slight differences, and it's not something easily handled by keywords....
18:22:01 <ThomasH> jmckitrick: So think about data structures and generic functions.
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18:22:31 <jmckitrick> ThomasH: You may be right.  There's something to be learned from it, but it's like mastering a book on carburated engines in today's world.
18:22:35 <ThomasH> jmckitrick: Point being, that doesn't necessarily require macros.
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18:22:44 <sykopomp> ^
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18:23:08 <jmckitrick> sykopomp: Then I should probably pick it up, for that reason alone.
18:23:18 -!- h0x00 [~Ivoc@91.207.42.52] has quit [Quit:    !]
18:23:33 <sykopomp> ...I think the only code repetition macros help me abstract away is code repetition caused by using macros to abstract code repetition.
18:23:40 <sykopomp> I like macros as interface syntax on top of functional/CLOS interfaces.
18:23:49 <hefner> jmckitrick: mock them today, you'll sing a different tune when you have to repair your lawn mower.
18:24:18 <ThomasH> hefner: Repair something? This is the 21st century, you through it away and buy a new one. ;-)
18:24:23 <ThomasH> *throw*
18:24:27 <jmckitrick> sykopomp: Could you give an example?
18:24:29 <ThomasH> Need some lunch.
18:24:37 <jmckitrick> Also, the AMOP book is the one by Kiczales, right?
18:24:47 <ThomasH> Among others
18:24:56 <jmckitrick> et al
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18:25:49 <sykopomp> jmckitrick: there was a good one a couple of days ago of someone needing macros to abstract away a pattern using allegrograph's query language.
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18:26:22 <sykopomp> unless there's an easy-to-use functional interface, you can't necessarily interpolate values into things like that.
18:26:40 <jmckitrick> I find most of my macros are DEF- or WITH- style macros, and that's pretty much it.
18:27:04 <sykopomp> that's syntax sugar on top of functional interfaces for me.
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18:27:42 <sykopomp> (defun call-with-open-file (func ...) (let ((s (open ...))) (unwind-protect (funcall func) (close s)))
18:28:11 <sykopomp> (defmacro with-open-file (...) `(call-with-open-file (lambda () ,@body) ...))
18:28:28 <sykopomp> similar pattern for def-
18:29:00 <sykopomp> (I guess (lambda (stream) ,@body). You get it.)
18:29:06 <sykopomp> and (funcall func s)
18:29:16 <jmckitrick> I get it.  ;-)
18:29:30 <sykopomp> but yeah
18:30:32 <sykopomp> of course, macros exist, and not everyone does it this way. In some cases, like fancy DSLs, it may actually be much harder to use the macroexpansion.
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18:30:44 <sykopomp> so macros are good for abstracting away -that- sort of code.
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18:31:17 <sykopomp> (the same thing applies when you're abstracting away special forms, for that matter)
18:31:24 <jmckitrick> Well, if the time comes that I need to take on another CL developer, I just don't want my code to look like primitive nonsense, lol.
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18:31:51 <jmckitrick> So I'm looking to upgrade and refactor now where needed, but not go overboard on concepts that really aren't that useful.
18:31:58 <Xach> better to look like sophisticated nonsense
18:32:05 <ThomasH> My code always looks like primitive nonsense because I'm always learning how to do it better.
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18:33:30 <jmckitrick> ThomasH: That's encouraging.  ;-)
18:34:04 <jmckitrick> Xach: The PDF's are coming along wonderfully.  ;-)
18:34:11 <Xach> hooray
18:34:47 <jmckitrick> Oh, and thanks to quicklisp, I was able to get 2 new development machines up and running in minutes.
18:34:57 <Xach> yay
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18:43:01 <daimrod> gigamonkey: I've pulled your changes but I can't get it working. http://paste.lisp.org/display/127320
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18:47:10 <sykopomp> I still remember the days when I used to set up new machines using clbuild
18:47:18 <sykopomp> is that even what it was called?
18:47:21 <sykopomp> I think that's it.
18:47:35 <Fade> yep
18:47:37 <Fade> ditto
18:47:46 <sykopomp> what a nightmare.
18:47:49 <Fade> seems like a long time ago now, but I guess that was just over a year ago.
18:48:10 <Guthur> yep, the fast moving world of CL development
18:49:13 <Guthur> actually, quicklisp could quite possibly spur an increase in CL lib development
18:49:49 <Xach> I think it has prompted some to release things they otherwise would not have
18:50:00 *hefner* just copied his ~/cl and ~/.sbcl from one machine to another, never had much trouble
18:50:39 <Xach> Completely new users often don't quite get the system-oriented mode of developing projects.
18:50:45 <Guthur> Xach: quantity over quality, umm well we'll have to wait and see
18:50:55 <chee> going nowhere at unprecedented speeds
18:51:03 <Guthur> lol
18:51:05 <gigamonkey> daimrod: ah, that could be due to need changes in some other of my libraries.
18:51:24 <gigamonkey> I should probably just make sure everything is working for Xach before the next quicklisp dist update goes out.
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18:52:42 <gigamonkey> Xach: did you make a big graphviz graph of dependencies between libs in ql?
18:52:57 <sykopomp> gigamonkey: how's toot going? I'm thinking of replacing hunchentoot in my app.
18:52:57 <Xach> I did
18:53:07 <Xach> It was too cluttered to be that useful
18:53:15 <gigamonkey> Those things usually are. Sadly.
18:53:26 <gigamonkey> sykopomp: it's getting there. I've been somewhat distracted with job interviewing lately.
18:53:32 <hefner> sign of impending self destruction, death by dependency
18:53:57 <gigamonkey> sykopomp: toot is actually been pretty stable. Because it doesn't do all that much.
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18:54:07 <gigamonkey> Whistle is more in flux.
18:54:12 <sykopomp> gigamonkey: that's what I'm looking for.
18:54:22 <sykopomp> I'm also considering making a Flask clone in CL as a weekend project.
18:54:35 <jmckitrick> gigamonkey: Turns out I'll have to stick with hunchentoot as well.
18:54:39 <sykopomp> all the tools are there already. Just need the light wrapper and packaging.
18:54:42 <gigamonkey> Toot would be good for that. And if you come up with good ideas I may snag them for whistle.
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18:54:56 <sykopomp> I should peek at whistle, too.
18:55:15 <gigamonkey> Just bear in mind that Whistle could all change but feedback is welcome.
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18:59:33 <jmckitrick> Speaking of advanced macros, I just started using postmodern, and there's some pretty heavy stuff in there.
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18:59:59 <jmckitrick> I guess that fits with the earlier comment of abstracting over other interfaces, especially query type languages, right?
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19:04:11 <sykopomp> right
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19:04:35 <sykopomp> jmckitrick: the nice thing about pomo is that it can work as a macro, or you can build a list and pass it that, instead.
19:04:43 <sykopomp> so you can still extend it functionally.
19:05:24 <sykopomp> (query (:select ....)) and (query `(:select ....)) both work :)
19:05:46 <jmckitrick> Slick.
19:05:48 <sykopomp> not *the* nice thing.
19:06:02 <sykopomp> oh! It seems Marijn is heavily involved in Rust development, by the way.
19:06:17 *sykopomp* found that interesting.
19:06:18 <jmckitrick> I just started experimenting with it, so I'll have a clsql layer and postmodern until I totally convert.
19:06:28 <jmckitrick> Plus I have to get those objects up and running.
19:06:40 <sykopomp> clsql was... I like it less than pomo.
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19:09:20 <jmckitrick> sykopomp: The reader has always given me fits.  Compile file used to work, now it marks all the brackets as errors.
19:09:36 <jmckitrick> Have to make changes, reload the system.
19:09:54 <sykopomp> yup
19:09:58 <madnificent> sykopomp: wouldn't have expected that.
19:10:08 <sykopomp> would be nice if s-sql worked with clsql.
19:10:28 <sykopomp> I also just found clsql harder to set up with mysql, when I tried it. That was 2+ years ago, though.
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19:13:27 <p_l> !fml
19:13:27 <jmckitrick> It's probably something I'm doing wrong, but I used to be able to compile the whole buffer, and the enable-reader form would pick up the bracket notation.  Not anymore.  Maybe I could google around and see what broke it.
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19:16:12 <Guthur> p_l: you got a few minutes
19:16:32 <Guthur> ok if I privmsg you?
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19:17:32 <p_l> Guthur: network is slightly weird right now, so I might have lags in answers, but you're welcome
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19:29:49 <Neronus> daimrod: Thanks for your patches
19:30:20 <Neronus> daimrod: The unit tests seem to show that the problem with ] and } is indeed fixed
19:32:19 <daimrod> Neronus: Cool :)
19:32:36 <daimrod> btw do you know how to make SLIME aware of the reader ?
19:32:46 -!- jsnell_ is now known as jsnell
19:32:57 <daimrod> I can't use the pipe with it.
19:33:01 vantage|home [~vantage@77.61-242-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp
19:33:06 <daimrod> it just doesn't want to send the input.
19:36:29 *vantage|home* is away: Ik ben bezig
19:37:02 <Xach> vantage|home: No need to let us know.
19:37:24 <vantage|home> Xach, xchat default functionality ;)
19:37:36 <Xach> Please fix.
19:37:51 <vantage|home> Xach, no I won't, but I'll close the window
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19:38:53 <rson> You even said please.  How rude.
19:39:39 <Xach> Belgians, what can you do?
19:39:45 *Xach* shrugs
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19:41:25 <kaus> is there any free lisp web host?
19:41:34 <Xach> kaus: I don't think so.
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19:42:01 <kaus> :( :(
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19:42:22 <Xach> Free things sure are nice, but not getting something for free is hardly something about which to frown.
19:42:33 <Xach> mariano|syzygy: Stop spamming.
19:42:50 <mariano|syzygy> Xach:  Sorry.
19:43:00 <billstclair> You can run lisp as a cgi script on many systems, but that is rarely what someone would call a "lisp host"
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19:44:38 <ehu> kaus: what's a 'web host'?
19:44:53 *Xach* fondly remembers OctoberX
19:44:54 <ehu> kaus: Tech Coop does lisp hosting, but not for free
19:45:03 <kaus> ehu: a web host is a web host
19:45:44 <ehu> kaus: that's the most useless answer I've had in this channel over the last 8 months
19:46:09 <kaus> ehu:that means i made a record!
19:46:28 <ehu> kaus: I know http hosts (aka webserver applications), cgi hosts, lisp hosting environments, but have no idea what you mean by a 'web host'
19:46:47 <ehu> do you mean a computer connected to the web?
19:46:51 <ehu> aka internet?
19:47:16 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp
19:47:35 <maxm--> web host is commercial company, that runs a server (usually a whole farm of them), located somewhere with a lot of bandwidth, and sells accounts on these servers
19:47:39 <kaus> ehu: i simply meant where i can host lisp scripts
19:47:58 <kaus> as cgi
19:48:01 <ehu> maxm--: that's a hosting company.
19:48:13 <ehu> kaus: that'd be with Tech Coop
19:48:19 <ehu> kaus: but they're not free.
19:48:50 <H4ns> who wants to sing the "lisp is not a script language" song?  any takers for "cgi is teh suck, we lispers don't use it"?
19:49:02 <kaus> web host=a host which is connected to the internet and lisp web host=a web host which supports lisp
19:49:28 <ehu> kaus: thanks.
19:49:41 <billstclair> Well, there are lots of hosts where you can build and install your own binaries. If you're running a lisp as a cgi script, meaning it has to start up and shut down with each connection to the web site, that will work.
19:49:48 <billstclair> nearlyfreespeech.net is almost free
19:49:55 <kaus> i can see the sarcasm in it but anyways your welcome
19:49:57 <billstclair> if you don't have much bandwidth
19:51:19 <Xach> kaus: Don't project.
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19:52:01 <billstclair> NFS has clisp built in. I haven't tried building CCL, but that might work
19:52:05 <ehu> kaus: they're definately not definitions that I use, that's all. A computer connected to the web meant for hosting applications is a 'server' in my world. And a computer connected to the internet doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the WWW (aka Web), which is only an extremely small portion of the possibilities
19:52:35 <ehu> available when you get an interconnected network of hosts
19:52:56 <H4ns> ehu: in the web world, there are web hosts.  these are web servers which usually come with apache and a set of perl and php scripts preconfigured.  depending on the plan, they allow users to install their own cgi scripts.
19:53:05 <H4ns> ehu: that is a web host.
19:53:48 <H4ns> kaus: no such thing exists for common lisp.  we run our lisp based services on generic hosts.  we don't use cgi, but have our lisp running all the time and serve requests using a build-in http server, usually hunchentoot.
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19:53:54 <ehu> ok. thanks. obviously my terminology is way off these days.
19:55:07 <H4ns> kaus: common lisp is not suitable for cgi processing because startup overhead an memory usage is high.
19:55:22 <kaus> ehu:for a moment you made me doubt on my own vocabulary
19:57:35 <madnificent> H4ns: /what/ song?
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19:58:14 <H4ns> madnificent: nm
19:58:15 <billitch> H4ns: sb-fastcgi is nice
19:58:37 <H4ns> billitch: i knew that someone would object :)
19:58:38 <madnificent> H4ns: if it was based on a real song, i'm curious to know which one
19:58:40 <billstclair> CCL works at nearlyfreespeech.net. I had to rebuild the kernel.
19:58:53 <H4ns> madnificent: i made that up.
19:58:56 <billitch> no objection to hunchentoot though
19:59:17 <billstclair> But H4ns is right that Lisp is not a very good cgi language
19:59:19 <madnificent> H4ns: i then urge you to become a rapper/gangsta/whatnot ;)
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19:59:59 <billitch> converting cgi to fastcgi is quite easy..
20:00:10 <H4ns> madnificent: at my age, i have to be careful not to loose a little rest of dignity
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20:05:51 <billstclair> Interesting. On my Mac, a bare PHP process uses 3.4 megs of RAM. A bare CCL process uses 5.7 megs of RAM. I'd wager that Lisp grows faster on loading code than PHP, but it starts out not that much bigger
20:06:15 <H4ns> billstclair: i did not say that php is a good cgi language :)
20:06:22 <billstclair> heh
20:06:29 <billstclair> Well it's good enough for a large number of web sites
20:06:50 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
20:06:57 <billstclair> python starts out at 4.0 megs
20:07:01 <H4ns> billstclair: understood.  but that is usually with fastcgi or some other non-cgi mechanism.
20:07:39 <billstclair> Yes, PHP gets special dispensation from Apache
20:08:00 <H4ns> billstclair: it would probably be possible to make lisp support all those ill protocols, too.  maybe by claiming that it is a great cgi scripting language, we can make that happen!1elf
20:08:55 TDT [~user@dhcpw267c51b0.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp
20:09:01 <billstclair> Most web hosts don't allow you to build your own binaries, however.
20:09:07 <billstclair> NFS is unusualy in that regard
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20:09:27 <Hexstream> Guthur: You said you'd rather we have quality over quantity in the way of projects (paraphrased)... We'll I think we're much better off with 3x quality projects + 3x shitty projects than x quality projects + x shitty projects...
20:09:31 <Hexstream> Because even though the quality ratio doesn't change, a quality project is more useful than a shitty project is harmful, as the latter can be ignored pretty easily. Look at Youtube. There are plenty of bad videos, but I don't really care about those... Just a thought.
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20:15:43 <Hexstream> sykopomp: "06:41:20 <sykopomp> ehu: I mean something lower-level that works more like LET so you can (lflet ((test (partial #'> 5))) ...)"
20:15:48 <Hexstream> ^-- I thought so too, so I wrote FLET*, which does exactly this. It even correctly handles all declarations! (hopefully): http://paste.lisp.org/display/127322
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20:16:45 <Hexstream> I've come to dislike gratuitous differences between binding in the variable and function namespaces, and this is one of them, I feel.
20:17:07 <Guthur> Hexstream: sure, I actually agree; also for the people looking at CL it helps dispels the notion that it's a dead language
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20:18:18 <Hexstream> Anyone who still entertains the thought that CL is a dead language in 2012 is clearly way out of touch...
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20:19:06 <madnificent> Hexstream: lisp, dead.  that's sooo 2011
20:19:22 <TDT> Hey all.  Curious about a few things.  I'm trying to test the file descriptor limit within a linux system.  I've tried two differnet ways.  The first is using streams, and the other is just calling open multiple times.  In the case of open, lets say I was doing a loop and just an (open "/dev/null") over and over again.  Those shouldn't be automatically closed, or reused, right?
20:20:19 <Xach> TDT: they might be finalized.
20:20:36 <Xach> TDT: so, yes, they might be.
20:20:40 <ehu> tdt: not portably guaranteed, but I sure hope your implementation closes file descriptors on finalization
20:20:57 <H4ns> TDT: if you want to test file descriptor limits, you should operate on file descriptors, not streams
20:21:04 <flip214> TDT: push the handles on a list, to keep them open?
20:21:08 <H4ns> TDT: you can use the ffi to call open(2) directly.
20:21:08 <TDT> Well, the thing is I don't want them to close right now...I'm trying to break the system quite honestly
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20:21:28 <TDT> It looks like it's actually opening multiple descriptors from lsof at least.
20:21:41 <Xach> TDT: so don't drop the references, or use the underlying syscall e.g. sb-posix:open
20:21:44 <flip214> some implementations directly allow open(2) to be called, eg. sbcl with sb-posix:open
20:21:55 <Guthur> Hexstream: some people are, not more than a year ago I had a lecturer at a local university say "Lisp, that's no good for games, it's interpreted"
20:22:18 <billitch> TDT: if your system breaks because of this, it is misconfigured
20:22:25 <TDT> Xach: *nod* yeah, pushing the references would help with that.
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20:23:11 <Guthur> He was well and truly addicted to MS coolaid though
20:23:12 Quadresce [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp
20:23:30 <dlowe> who says you can't use interpreters in games anyway? :p
20:23:38 <Hexstream> Guthur: There seems to be a pretty strong relation between "being an academic" and "thinking you know the state of lisp" and "actually not knowing jackshit about the state of lisp".
20:23:43 <TDT> hah wow this is very....interesting behavior.  I'll post, some others here may find this interesting.
20:23:58 <TDT> At this point, I'd expect sbcl to start throwing exceptions..sec, I'll post, it's kinda odd
20:24:43 <billitch> TDT: but you're on UNIX could also read login.conf(5)
20:25:01 <TDT> https://gist.github.com/f8389f5e5a60d357a123
20:25:01 <billitch> TDT: uh..  if you're on UNIX you could also read login.conf(5)
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20:25:13 <TDT> This is on arch linux I'm running this on.
20:25:33 <billitch> well you know file descriptor limits are not magical, they are enforced by the system
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20:25:40 <TDT> Curious, look at 912r, so it looks like it's hitting a limit, but not being sent back to sbcl
20:26:13 <billitch> and you actually have to tune them to avoid one process starving the rest of the system
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20:26:34 <Xach> TDT: I'd be more curious about the result from a proper test.
20:26:35 <flip214> TDT: looks strange ... distribution, kernel version? what does lsof say?
20:27:09 <TDT> billitch: Yeah.  the issue actually comes down to another program I've been running, which is dying with only a few input files due to file issues.  My test was just, more or less to see how many a process can get..ulimit is set very high, and so is the global lock.
20:27:26 <TDT> flip214: That is lsof, the bottom portion of the paste, anyways
20:27:37 <TDT> Xach: Would you define "proper test" in this case?
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20:27:57 <Xach> TDT: One that keeps references or uses the underlying syscall.
20:27:58 <flip214> TDT: sorry, what does ls -la /proc/../fd/ say?
20:28:10 <Xach> TDT: and what's that string output stream thing for?
20:28:27 <TDT> Added too many lines, that was my first test, please disregard
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20:28:53 <billitch> open(2) returns EMFILE The process has already reached its limi
20:28:59 <billitch> t for open file descriptors
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20:29:59 <billitch> TDT: i guess you'll spare some time having invalid fds returned than crashing the whole os
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20:31:01 <TDT> Yeah, I think it's recycling a few of them.  I'll write a better test, xach, one sec.
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20:33:17 <TDT> nice, sb-posix:open does translate the error back correctly
20:33:45 <Xach> TDT: so does cl:open.
20:33:53 <Xach> Try (loop collect (open "/dev/null")) for example.
20:34:14 <Xach> Well, in SBCL anyway.
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20:34:43 <Xach> and in every other CL I try
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20:34:57 <TDT> Yeah, that works here too.
20:35:14 <TDT> So each iteration of loop there's a bit of a gc of unreferenced objects?
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20:36:06 <Xach> TDT: Not necessarily.
20:37:03 <TDT> So the error can still happen, kinda non-deterministically depending when the gc decides to run?
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20:37:44 <Xach> Yes.
20:38:11 <p_l> TDT: you can try increasing GC rate by lowering generation size
20:39:06 <TDT> So with the lsof output that I pasted earlier, the part around line 912r, any idea of what was happening in the underlying system during that operation?
20:40:10 <billitch> TDT: looks like they were closed while lsof was listing them
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20:40:34 <TDT> ah, interesting.
20:40:51 <TDT> That helps, thanks everyone for your help in looking at this issue.  Learend a lot
20:40:54 <billitch> suggesting that it first gets a list and then gets some more info about listed fds
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20:43:08 <TDT> yeah that actually makes sense.
20:43:45 <TDT> I'm just really surprised that gc happens within the loop..makes sense though, since we set variables in a loop construct, the old values need to be freed sometime.
20:44:17 <billitch> TDT: gc happen all the time except some atomic operations
20:44:47 <billitch> s/happen/may happen/
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20:45:31 <billitch> TDT: also fds are just numbers, you could have a look at openat(2) dont know if sb-posix has it
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20:45:51 <billitch> probably
20:46:03 <TDT> https://gist.github.com/1684985 = final version of the file handler test.  Now I can run this on the system actually having issues.
20:46:32 <Xach> TDT: Do you use sb-ext:run-program a lot?
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20:47:30 <TDT> Xach: Not terribly often, no...but sometimes.
20:47:34 <billitch> TDT: (mapcar #'close fds)    ;)
20:48:09 <Xach> TDT: one version of SBCL leaked a FD for each run-program.
20:48:12 <Xach> It has since been fixed.
20:48:13 <billitch> mapc even
20:48:35 <TDT> Xach: Do you know if streams also count toward the file descriptor?
20:48:42 <TDT> billitch: Thanks, that's cleaner.
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20:49:19 <Xach> TDT: file and network streams use an underlying file descriptor
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21:45:05 <Guthur> is there a map function that doesn't end on the shortest list
21:45:38 <ThomasH> Guthur: How would that work?
21:45:58 <ThomasH> Guthur: I guess I mean how would you like that to work?
21:47:15 <Guthur> ThomasH: actually it doesn't matter, there is a simple solution
21:47:31 <Guthur> I just wanted a function applied to every element on 2 lists
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21:48:23 <flip214> Guthur: what's your solution? loop?
21:49:01 <Guthur> flip214: append, hehe
21:49:27 <flip214> and how do you know the length? O(2n), something like that?
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21:50:16 <Guthur> flip214: umm, yes, they shouldn't be long but that is worth baring in mind
21:51:06 <flip214> just use (loop for a = list1 then (cdr a) for b = list2 then (cdr b) collect (func a b)) ... that's O(N)
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21:52:04 <Guthur> flip214: looks good, cheers
21:52:33 <flip214> you're welcome
21:52:50 <flip214> Guthur: you'll want a (while (and a b))
21:53:08 <flip214> and (func (car a) (car b)) ...
21:53:10 <flip214> &%!§$!
21:53:30 <Guthur> and the swearing? hehe
21:53:57 <Guthur> i'll repl it all first to be sure
21:54:48 <ThomasH> Guthur: Is this function require a single argument?
21:54:52 <ThomasH> *Does*
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21:56:10 <Guthur> ThomasH: yeah one element at a time would ha
21:56:12 <Guthur> umm
21:56:21 <ThomasH> Guthur: Does the order matter?
21:56:22 <Guthur> ...have been preferable
21:56:41 <Guthur> nope, its too lists of garbage i need to free
21:56:42 <Guthur> two*
21:56:47 <ThomasH> Just a sec
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21:59:26 <ThomasH> As I was thinking about the loop approach, I'm wondering whats the problem with just calling map/loop/whatever on each list separately?
21:59:54 <Guthur> ThomasH: hehe yeah that also works
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22:00:45 <ThomasH> Guthur: Ok, I'm getting back to work. I leave "clever" solutions to the people that have to maintain them.
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22:01:44 <Guthur> ThomasH: yep, plenty nice ones,
22:01:53 <Guthur> the append was a bad one, shame on me
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22:05:43 <Guthur> lol you know you been doing to much lisp when you start your sentences with parenthesis
22:06:46 <Guthur> I want to shadow some functions in a macro, sometimes they will not be used, anyway to silent the warning
22:07:00 <Guthur> in the macro expansion
22:07:14 <Guthur> I'm using a flet
22:07:25 <wbooze> why is (defparamater *threads*) just not work in sbcl ?
22:07:45 <wbooze> but (defparameter *threads* nil) does ?!
22:07:57 <ThomasH> Because there is no DEFPARAMATER
22:08:20 <wbooze> sorry for the typo but you know what i mean
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22:08:46 <Guthur> wbooze: val is not optional
22:08:54 <Kryztof> have you looked up defparameter in the clhs?
22:09:09 <Kryztof> if you look closely, you will see something about its syntax
22:09:14 <wbooze> no only looked up the function signature via describe
22:09:29 <Kryztof> well that would do, too
22:09:55 <wbooze> hmmm, ok maybe i read it false
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22:13:17 <wbooze> ah yes initialization, not like defvar
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22:14:41 <Guthur> nvm on my warnings query, the funcs can be made ignorable
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22:41:03 <SurlyFrog> Hi all, I've just posted a sorting question.  here http://paste.lisp.org/display/127326.
22:42:21 <pkhuong> SurlyFrog: what does (caar (first *bar*)) return for you?
22:42:35 <SurlyFrog> Maybe you just can't reach down that deep during a sort??  It seems to bomb out once I get to the "bs", so perhaps by then sort has destroyed too much of the list to ocntinue.
22:42:39 <pkhuong> also, keep in mind that sort is destructive; using it on quoted data can give surprising results.
22:42:57 <SurlyFrog> pkhuong: lemme check
22:43:14 <pkhuong> the copy-list and mapcar combo should be enough re destructive operations.
22:43:39 <pkhuong> compare with (caaar (first *bar*))
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22:44:21 <SurlyFrog> (caar (first *bar*)) -> "a" (caar (first *bar*)) is an error
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22:44:59 <pkhuong> SurlyFrog: I'll assume the second had 3 as. Do you see why caaar is the wrong :key function to use?
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22:45:35 <SurlyFrog> umm.looking
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22:46:46 <SurlyFrog> oh.yeah, I see it now.  (caaar *bar*) gives "a", but sort is acting on each individual element.  So it needs caar.
22:47:10 <SurlyFrog> I'll try again and check it building the lists using (list) Instead of quoted data.
22:47:42 <ThomasH> I underutilize ROTATEF and SHIFTF
22:48:41 <pkhuong> SurlyFrog: it's fine: you copy-list before the inner sort, and mapcar returns a fresh list as well.
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22:49:16 <SurlyFrog> pkhuong: using caar as the key works, (and I understand why).  Thanks so much!
22:51:44 <ThomasH> Oops, infinite loop
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23:02:44 <SurlyFrog> This is probably a stupid question, but is there a function that pulls out one level of a nested list?  (mapcan #'(lambda (x) x) *the-list*) does what I need, just wondering if that's the normal way to do it.
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23:03:59 <DataLinkDroid> SurlyFrog: identity
23:04:25 <pkhuong> SurlyFrog: typically a sign that you could do things differently.
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23:04:38 <SurlyFrog> DataLinkDroid: looking it up on CLHS now.
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23:05:14 <SurlyFrog> pkhuoung: yeahI'm getting that "tingling feeling" that tells me I'm probably going against the grain someplace
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23:44:02 <madnificent> eval-when gives me options as to when i can evaluate the code in an &any option list.  can i use something similar to provide those hints in macros i write myself?
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00:10:48 <Guthur> sshirokov: ping
00:10:54 <sshirokov> pong
00:11:34 <Guthur> have you got moment, I'd appreciate if you could give some of my zmq binding API a once over
00:11:41 <sshirokov> Sure
00:11:59 <Guthur> just a portion of it, to get some feedback
00:12:59 *sshirokov* nods
00:13:23 <Guthur> sshirokov: http://paste.lisp.org/display/127327
00:13:36 <Guthur> I'll annotate the output momentarily
00:14:46 <Guthur> the use of with macros means none of that requires finalizers
00:15:05 <sshirokov> I assumed as much
00:15:44 <Guthur> you can also pass all sockopts via the with-sockets
00:16:00 <Guthur> except for the subscriptions and linger
00:16:08 <sshirokov> It seems odd that you provide a string helper to sendmsg, and a configuration param to recvmsg to customize what you get, but don't offer a string helper that's as simple
00:16:45 <sshirokov> As in (let ((s (recvmsg sock nil :as 'string))) ...)
00:17:28 <Guthur> umm, yep
00:17:34 <sshirokov> or just (recvmsg sock :string)
00:17:35 <Guthur> good call
00:17:41 <sshirokov> If you're feeling clos-fancy already
00:17:47 <Guthur> yeah that was coming to mind
00:17:57 <Guthur> and (eql :string)
00:18:03 <Guthur> an*
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00:18:56 <Guthur> I'll definitely look at that, it's a good suggestion
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00:19:52 <sshirokov> Just a nit, but (w-o-t-s (s) (format s "..")) can just be (format nil "..")
00:20:19 <Guthur> really, awesome
00:20:38 <Guthur> it always felt a little long winded
00:20:46 <Guthur> ...doh
00:21:09 <sshirokov> I do like like :connect and :bind existing in `with-sockets'
00:21:14 <sshirokov> err, socket
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00:21:28 <Guthur> they can be lists as well
00:21:49 <Guthur> for multiple endpoints
00:21:51 <sshirokov> Can it be a function that returns a string or list?
00:22:13 <sshirokov> Would be nice to have since the rest unfolds at macroexpand
00:22:36 <Guthur> it can be a func
00:22:37 *sshirokov* asks for pony
00:22:45 *sshirokov* receives pony!
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00:23:27 <sshirokov> recvall => list of messages?
00:23:40 <sshirokov> GUESS NOT
00:23:46 <Guthur> no
00:23:53 <Guthur> tried that
00:24:05 <Guthur> but needed a object I could be destructive
00:24:13 <Guthur> there be dragons there
00:24:21 <Guthur> I have tried to tame them
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00:24:35 <Guthur> that's where I am least happy about things
00:24:36 <sshirokov> Any reason why (with-m-p-msg ..) doesn't parenthesize the requested bindings?
00:25:04 <sshirokov> Also, both of the w-*-msg macros accept multiple symbols, right?
00:25:38 <Guthur> sshirokov: I am consider making it lambda-list eg. (msg)
00:25:48 <Guthur> sshirokov: yep
00:25:58 <sshirokov> I don't like recvall
00:26:19 <sshirokov> Couldn't you handle the disambiguation in plain-old recvmsg by knowing that you're requesting a recv on a multipart?
00:26:33 <Guthur> sshirokov: it's a difficult problem area
00:26:37 <sshirokov> How so?
00:27:04 <Guthur> ...to solve with explicit life time of the msgs
00:27:16 <sshirokov> Are they not finalized by the GC?
00:27:25 <Guthur> nope
00:27:28 <sshirokov> Ah
00:27:51 <Guthur> i did some trickery with a intern garbage list to the w-m-p-m
00:27:58 <Guthur> internal*
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00:28:35 <Guthur> oh actually that garbage list is only when you use some funcs not shown there
00:28:37 <Hexstream> madnificent: &any is not standard.
00:28:40 <sshirokov> Hm. Well, I still think recvall smells funny, especially as it sits there, because sendmsg again has a calling convention that recvmsg lacks..
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00:30:48 <Guthur> sshirokov: if I use messages with finalizers for the recvall it would probably be a little cleaner
00:31:06 <Guthur> I only implemented that interface to night
00:31:25 <Guthur> previously it just return a list of newly allocated msgs
00:31:32 <Guthur> ...with finalizers
00:31:46 <sshirokov> Hold on to something. I'm going to stab in the dark!
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00:32:55 <sshirokov> How about treating a receipt of a multipart message as a lazy operation and return a structure that only yields message parts as they are requested by reading from the socket on demand
00:33:23 <Guthur> umm maybe a future
00:33:35 <Guthur> been itching to put one in somewhere
00:34:09 <Guthur> you funcall it until nil
00:34:27 <Guthur> recving msg parts
00:34:39 <sshirokov> It'd let you not worry about carrying around a bunch of foreign refs that aren't going to be unwound at a higher scope nor allocate a bunch of memory to hold potentially unbounded sets
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00:34:47 <madnificent> Hexstream: thanks
00:35:39 <Guthur> sshirokov: umm yeah, i think i see what you mean there
00:35:57 <sshirokov> Since ZMQ promises already that if you start to recieve multipart data you will recieve all parts you can figure out at the first zmq_recv call if you need to do anything
00:36:03 <Guthur> sshirokov: definitely needs a little more thought around that area
00:36:55 <sshirokov> So if it would fail to read at first, you can trash the whole operation as a failure, if it succeeds return a lazy structure to read parts with either 0 or 1 already read.
00:37:09 <sshirokov> ) ;; Speech
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00:37:26 <Guthur> some good thoughts there
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00:37:49 <Guthur> I'll look to take that all on board
00:37:58 <Guthur> many thanks sshirokov
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00:39:17 <sshirokov> No prob.
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02:01:56 <Quadrescence> rtoym, you should announce your successes
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02:13:19 <beslyrus> what did rtoym succceed in doing?
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02:15:31 <rtoym> Nothing major.  With Quadrescence's help, I've updated cmucl/ppc to the latest code.
02:15:46 <Quadrescence> darwin/ppc!
02:17:54 <rtoym> Not really sure why I spent the time to do it, but it was kind of fun and I kind of like ppc assembly.
02:18:01 <rtoym> At least it's not x86. :-)
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02:21:27 <rme> I'm impressed that you have working PPC hardware.
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02:22:34 <rtoym> I used Quadrescence's machine to do the work.
02:23:03 <rtoym> My own ppc hardware (macmini g4 1.42 GHz) died several years ago.
02:23:06 <Quadrescence> rtoym, I have no other machine but a PPC
02:23:31 <Quadrescence> rtoym, so it's helpful :)
02:24:19 <joshe> I got a g4 mini recently, they're very nice quiet little machines
02:28:12 <rtoym> I was very sad when my mini died.   It was a nice little machine.  I just wished is supported a little more than 2GB.
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03:48:09 <egn> hi, just curious: What's the reason that defmethod (without defgeneric) throws a style warning and defun doesn't?
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03:48:20 <egn> sbcl
03:48:52 <Bike> What style warning?
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03:49:41 <egn> Implicitly creating new generic function FOO-BAR
03:50:50 <Bike> Then, because methods are associated with generic functions and non-generic functions aren't.
03:51:24 <rme> It's just sbcl being excessively (imo) picky.
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03:57:52 <Ralith> egn: defmethod specializes a generic function
03:57:57 <Ralith> defun creates a normal function
04:00:50 <egn> thanks guys
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04:05:11 <egn> is there a way to silence only that style warning besides resolving it with a defgeneric?
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04:19:12 <kenanb> egn: if you define a generic function explicitly, then there will be no style warnings
04:19:26 <kenanb> s/then/than
04:19:36 <kenanb> no, it was really "then"
04:19:42 <kenanb> i hate my english skills
04:24:54 <egn> hm I should just read up on defgeneric more
04:25:14 <rme> just ignore the style warning
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04:29:46 <kenanb> egn: in CL, defun defines a function, a usual function, defgeneric defines a generic function, which is a function that will later specialize on its arguments by methods, since you defined the method before the generic function itself, sbcl warns you that the generic function is implicitly created
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04:30:35 <egn> kenanb: ah, fantastic. thank you
04:31:22 <kenanb> which does no harm but defining the generic function first is better style, that is why sbcl prints a style warning
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04:32:53 <egn> so it's not even something you necessarily want to get rid of
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04:35:12 <kenanb> i would get rid of it by defining the generic function first, otherwise, no
04:35:19 <kennyd> it's not. defgeneric provides an interface that defmethods have to follow. in CL methods belong to generic functions, not to classes
04:35:24 <egn> cool
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04:37:22 <kennyd> (defgeneric foo (bar))  (defmethod foo ((bar string) baz)) <- you'll get a diagnostic in here because method doesn't match generic function's lambda list
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04:59:09 <rtoym> Wouldn't you also get a message if you tried to define two foo methods with incompatible lambda lists?
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05:05:12 <kennyd> rtoym yes the first one would implicitly create matching defgeneric
05:06:29 <kennyd> so yeah it's just a style issue, I prefer to be explicit. as does sbcl
05:08:47 <rtoym> Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. :-)
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05:23:36 <Mark7> hi
05:24:35 <Mark7> are lisp macros similar to C++ ones?
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05:31:33 <Mark7> hello. are lisp macros similar to c++ ones in the way they work?
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07:51:43 <mvilleneuve> good morning
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08:05:53 <kenanb> morning mvilleneuve
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08:47:56 <kami> Good morning.
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08:56:54 <osa1__> is this a good idea: http://paste.lisp.org/display/127330 ? I have a long cond and test forms are just eql's to some variables
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08:58:13 <|3b|> looks like it could be confusing
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08:58:29 <osa1__> |3b|: why?
08:58:30 <pjb> osa1__: that cannot work.
08:58:38 <pjb> osa1__: think about macroexpansion time vs. runtime.
08:58:44 <pjb> When do you want to evaluate your expressions?
08:58:47 <|3b|> tey are evaluated at macroexpansion time, in null lexical environment
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08:59:03 <osa1__> ahh right
08:59:23 <pjb> (macroexpand '(case-eval x (a 1) (b 2))) gives unknown variable A.
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09:01:12 <osa1__> constants defined with defconstant are being replaced by their values before run-time, right? maybe I could use constants in (case ..)
09:01:58 <osa1__> nope, I just tried and it didn't work
09:02:00 <pjb> Still no.
09:02:17 <pjb> You could write: (defconstant a 1) (case 1 (#.a 'one))
09:02:35 <pjb> But using the reader like this is not too nice.
09:03:12 <osa1__> pjb: what is #. reader macro for? is it eval?
09:03:16 <pjb> Actually you would have to write: (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) (defconstant a 1)) (case 1 (#.a 'one))
09:03:19 <pjb> Yes.
09:04:40 <daimrod> osa1__: I suggest you to read the CLHS or Ctl2 part on the reader and the evaluation model.
09:06:00 <osa1__> daimrod: I found case's behavior strange. why doesn't it eval test forms? if I want to test equalities of symbols I can just quote my test forms..
09:06:30 <jdz> osa1__: why don't you use COND then?
09:07:29 <pjb> osa1__: it's no stranger than C switch.
09:07:54 <jdz> osa1__: the point of CASE is that the compiler can create an optimized (probably a jump table or something) code at compile time.
09:07:57 <pjb> If you want the case labels to be evaluated at run time, you can write such a macro.  Using cond.
09:08:08 <osa1__> jdz: right now I'm using cond, but with cond my code is ugly, since I have lots of test cases like (eql some var1 test-case) (eql var2 test-case) ... it's lots of boilerplate
09:08:22 <Ralith> osa1__: so write your own version?
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09:08:30 <osa1> sorry, disconnected
09:08:31 <Ralith> osa1: so write your own version?
09:08:35 <osa1> [Friday, January 27, 2012] [01:07:55 |AM] <osa1__>| jdz: right now I'm using cond, but with cond my code is ugly, since I have lots of test cases like (eql some var1 test-case) (eql var2 test-case) ... it's lots of boilerplate
09:08:38 <jdz> osa1: that does not look like a lot of boilerplate
09:08:52 <Ralith> homemade conditionals tend to be easy and fun macros
09:08:55 <osa1> jdz: it's a lot of boilerplate when you have 20 test cases
09:09:01 *Ralith* is partial to predicate-case
09:09:28 <jdz> osa1: care to paste the code? (on lisppaste ofc)
09:10:49 <jdz> osa1: anyway, if you have so many cases they're probably all very similar, anyway
09:11:08 <osa1> jdz: I don't have full working finished code, but in the end I'll have about 20 cases: http://paste.lisp.org/display/127331
09:11:35 <kennyd> osa1 use cond in your macro instead of case
09:11:40 <jdz> osa1: the elided code is kind of important
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09:12:06 <osa1> kennyd: looks like nice idea
09:12:13 <jdz> osa1: and then there are EQL specializers for method parameters
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09:12:42 <osa1> jdz: I have need (progn ...) inside cases, if that's what's important
09:12:53 <osa1> s/have//
09:12:57 <jdz> osa1: no, that's not important
09:13:07 <jdz> osa1: important is that you use more data-driven approach
09:13:30 <osa1> jdz: ah, do you mean something like generic functions?
09:13:55 <jdz> osa1: that's one of the choices
09:14:07 <osa1> jdz: I can't paste omitted code since for now I don't actually have the code, I'm just planning
09:14:13 <osa1> jdz: what are other choices?
09:14:17 <pjb> osa1: http://paste.lisp.org/display/127330#1
09:14:23 <jdz> put stuff into your own tables
09:14:55 <pjb> osa1: use annotations!
09:15:30 <osa1> pjb: that's great, thanks
09:15:34 <osa1> pjb: annotations?
09:15:53 <pjb> in lisppaste. instead of doing tens of different pastes, use annotations when it's related.
09:15:55 <pjb> osa1: http://paste.lisp.org/display/127330#1
09:16:27 <osa1> ok, I didn't know annotations
09:18:24 <pjb> osa1: notice in my macro, the problem with keys.  In CASE, the keys is actually a list designator. If you give an atom, it is treated as if it was a list containing the atom.  Similarly in my macro.  But then, non-atomic expressions must be wrapped into a list, since otherwise they'd be treated as a list of keys, instead of a single key expression.  Hence the syntax for the third clause in the example.
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09:19:18 <jdz> and writing that macro is the wrong solution to the problem, anyway
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09:20:38 <osa1> jdz: yeah I'm considering using generic functions
09:20:44 <pjb> indeed the solution is to use alexandria:switch.
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09:20:58 <jdz> pjb: not
09:23:17 <kennyd> what does alexandria switch do different? it doesn't need additional set of parenthesis around (+ 2 1)
09:23:48 <kennyd> (alexandria:switch (3) ((+ 2 1) 'three)) => THREE
09:23:53 <pjb> it doesn't take a list of keys.
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09:26:21 <Blkt> good (late) morning everyone
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09:49:01 <hefner> where does quicklisp store the projects it downloads?
09:54:11 <jdz> in pockets
09:54:52 <hefner> oh, weird. I told it to load a few other systems, and it downloaded and claimed it did, but there were no signs under ~/quicklisp.
09:54:56 <Posterdati> hi
09:55:08 <hefner> now I load a different system, and I see a tgz file, an asd file, etc.
09:55:23 <jdz> hefner: something weird going on for sure
09:55:30 <Posterdati> jdz: but it stores chewing gum too there
09:56:32 <hefner> the first few systems were things I already had installed, the "old fashioned" way
09:56:44 <Posterdati> asdf?
09:56:45 <hefner> (this machine is mostly a time machine back to the year 2009)
09:57:00 <Posterdati> are you john titor?
09:57:19 <p_l> ...
09:57:20 <hefner> no.
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09:57:53 <p_l> Posterdati: I'm pretty sure hefner isn't an overweight japanese guy
09:58:10 <Posterdati> p_l: and?
09:58:21 <p_l> (ah, sorry, that was Barrel Titor)
09:58:56 -!- EyesIsServer [~eyes@WiseOS/Founder/EyesIsMine] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
09:59:16 <Posterdati> p_l: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Titor
09:59:57 *p_l* has just woken up and some associations work weirdly
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10:01:02 <p_l> Posterdati: Let's say someone took that and made a TV series
10:01:06 <p_l> (and before that, a game)
10:01:18 <daimrod> hefner: you can use ql:where-is-system
10:01:18 <Posterdati> p_l: nah!
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10:02:01 <hefner> I'm trying to figure out how I should approach making Shuffletron compile its executable on systems where the lisp environment is help captive by quicklisp
10:02:30 <hefner> ..which could be as simple as removing the --no-userinit from the Makefile, while trying not to scowl.
10:03:18 <Ralith> hefner: quicklisp will load things from your local ASDF paths if they're available
10:03:29 <Ralith> it only downloads them itself if they're otherwise absent
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10:08:56 <hefner> Okay, I see what happened. The first time I used (ql:quickload "cffi"), it went out to the internet for systems.txt and releases.txt, and glossing over the messages made me think it had downloaded CFFI too.
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10:21:40 <gab31> Hi guys! Here is a code: http://paste.lisp.org/display/127334  why a controla is not transferred to a second form? When I remove (handler-case ...) and invoke restarts by myself it works, but when I try to invoke the restart from the handler it does not. Why?
10:23:44 <pjb> Seems to me it works perfectly.  Add (print "Handling") before (continue condition).
10:26:22 <pjb> Notice that with handler-case, the handling of the condition is done outside of the lexical scope of the expression. So your continue restarts are finished when you handle the condition.
10:26:28 <jdz> gab31: are you sure you do not want HANDLER-BIND?
10:26:36 <pjb> Use handler-bind, or put the with-simple-restart outoside of the handler-case.
10:27:30 <gab31> Oh, thanks!
10:27:58 <pjb> put (print (compute-restarts condition)) before (continue condition) to see it.
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10:29:45 <gab31> It works pretty with HANDLER-BIND. Thanks.
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10:42:17 <nicdev_> i have a symbol that's mapped to a wrong package and couple days back pkhuong told me the solution is to unintern and reread the packages. am stil learning about packages so can anyone care to let me know where i can see how this is done? basically, i have defined 'my-package' that (:use :bnkr.datastore) and i am getting an error that my-package::string-unique-index cannot be found
10:44:44 <zhtx> Hi everybody. I'm new to Common Lisp. Well, which lisp implementation can compile some Lisp files to a tiny executable? SBCL's output is quite big.
10:45:24 <hefner> big and beautiful.
10:45:47 <|3b|> ecl and clisp probably have the smallest executables of the free lisps
10:46:36 <jdz> nicdev_: which package do you expect the symbol string-unique-index to be found?
10:46:54 <|3b|> also, recent SBCL can compress the executables if that helps any
10:47:03 <jdz> nicdev_: so you you either qualify that symbol fully, or add the package to the use list
10:47:14 <daimrod> zhtx: afaik that's not really the CL way, you shouldn't try to build an executable unless you really need one. Just live in your REPL.
10:47:48 <zhtx> thank you. i see.
10:47:54 <hefner> zhtx: ECL doesn't do too bad if you remember to strip everything, but I think it's still in the range of a couple megs
10:48:55 <zhtx> another question. how can i read the command arguments?
10:49:29 <nicdev_> jdz: bnkr.indices which is used by bknr.datastore. but isn't the point of defining a use-list to avoid qualifying a package fully every place you use it in the new package?
10:49:58 <|3b|> nicdev_: does bknr.datastore export that symbol?
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10:50:25 <|3b|> :use doesn't export anything, just makes things accessible inside the package being defined
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10:51:16 <daimrod> zhtx: if you really want to do that you can look at Clon http://www.lrde.epita.fr/~didier/software/lisp/clon.php
10:51:42 <hefner> zhtx: They'll be stored in a variable somewhere. In SBCL, it's sb-ext:*posix-argv*
10:52:01 <|3b|> nicdev_: possibly you want to add bknr.indices to the :use clause of the package you are defining?
10:52:01 <zhtx> well. i see
10:52:19 <gab31> zhtx: if you want to write a small and simple application then may be you sholud look at newLISP (it is not a CL implementation).
10:52:45 <nicdev_> |3b|: it does not. i think that's where my assumptions were wrong. i assumed that since bknr.indices exports the symbol, and bknr.datastore uses it, then by using my package would see the symbols exported by bkrn.indices by using bnkr.datastore
10:52:51 <zhtx> i want to write some useful applications. it may be big.
10:53:22 <jdz> people usually do not care about the size of useful applications
10:54:22 <zhtx> maybe. but some people i know don't like Java because JRE is too big
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10:56:33 <jdz> some people do not like what i like. does not influence my tast a single bit.
10:56:43 <daimrod> is that really important? if your application is fast and useful why bother?
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10:57:26 *|3b|* thinks arguing about whether it is a useful feature is pretty pointless unless someone is actually going to do something about it
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10:58:15 <zhtx> how to remove a package installed from quicklisp? i didn't see a command to do that.
10:59:14 <gab31> zhtx: high-level and cross-platform language implementations are big
11:00:03 <daimrod> zhtx: http://groups.google.com/group/quicklisp/browse_thread/thread/af0779b0b0bee5e?pli=1
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11:00:48 <gab31> zhtx: if you want to write cross-platform software in high-level language at usual you will use a language that uses a virtual machine
11:01:16 <gab31> zhtx: so your executable file will contain the VM implementation
11:02:58 <zhtx> well. that's really true
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11:38:38 <chr> Point is in the middle of a block.  Parens around the block are balanced, but several of the outermost right-parens have whitespace between them.   Is there a paredit command or some such that pushes the end parens together?
11:39:38 <jdz> chr: why is the whitespace there at all?
11:39:51 <pjb> chr: doesn't seem to be, but you could write it.
11:41:22 <chr> jdz: good point.  I haven't learned to fully trust paredit, maybe it's my fault.
11:44:05 <Ralith> chr: I think just putting the cursor at the first ) and tapping the ) key a few times will kill pointless whitespace
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11:45:41 <chr> Ralith: Yup.  Seems like the cursor could be anywhere in the block.  Thanks.
11:46:09 <Ralith> glad to help!
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11:54:32 <osa1> is there a LOOP parameter like collect but to construct arrays, not lists?
11:55:01 <jdz> osa1: no
11:56:40 <pjb> (coerce (loop ... collect ...) 'vector)
11:56:58 <pjb> (loop with i = -1 ... do (setf (aref v (incf i)) ...))
11:57:31 <flip214> osa1: there's a :result-type at least in re-iterate, but I don't know whether that can return an array instead of a list
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12:10:39 <mal> or use vector-push-extend
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12:11:25 <Guthur> is it bad form for a predicate func to return more than a boolean?
12:12:04 <pjb> Not necessarily.
12:12:07 <flip214> Guthur: no, if it makes sense ... eg find returns something useful too
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12:13:17 <Guthur> ok, find has not got the p suffix though
12:13:50 <Guthur> I suppose I am thing more on naming conventions
12:14:05 <Guthur> thinking*
12:14:11 <pjb> if the other value had the same importance as the first, then no -p. But if 99% of the time you only use the first value, then -p is ok.
12:14:30 <pjb> Notice also digit-char-p
12:15:16 <Guthur> sounds good cheers
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12:58:59 <Posterdati> pjb: hi
12:59:07 <pjb>  hi
12:59:11 <Posterdati> flip214: hi
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13:09:22 <anonus> http://sprunge.us/PDjN?cl
13:09:24 <anonus> http://sprunge.us/PTGS
13:09:34 <anonus> two questions about optfac
13:10:26 <anonus> 1. what are those nopes? what are they for?
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13:11:09 <anonus> 2. why it jumps to l2 and then immediately to l0? why not to jump directly to l0 ?
13:12:49 <jdz> anonus: nops are used for code alignment
13:13:35 <jdz> anonus: the jumps are probably so that it's easy to add tracing/advice stuff
13:13:59 <jdz> just like in the old days on DOS .com files it was easy to infect them with custom code
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13:16:29 <anonus> why it needs traces if i compiled with (speed 3) (debug 0) (safety 0) ?
13:17:04 <pjb> Compiling so doesn't prevent (trace fun)
13:17:25 <pjb> And the double jump shouldn't slow down the pipes.
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13:43:30 <el-maxo> hiho
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13:45:46 <el-maxo> I am currently writing a minimal C runtime for a small lisp dialect I want to compile to C, I am now at writing the garbage collector. Since its a academic project, I'd like to keep the implementation as simple and compact as possible. Any suggestions, reference counting or mark and sweep, implementation specifics that make is simple?
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13:47:01 <billstclair> mark/sweep is the conventional simple gc
13:47:14 <billstclair> I've never heard of a reference counted lisp
13:47:31 <billstclair> usually mark/sweep/compact
13:47:37 <billstclair> makes allocation simple
13:48:05 <billstclair> That's what I used for the Scheme interpreter I wrote for the PDP-11 in 1979
13:48:13 <billstclair> In Macro Assembler
13:48:39 <billstclair> If you reverse the pointers as you recursively descend, you don't need any stack
13:48:55 <billstclair> Just one "visited" bit per object, or a bitmap
13:49:04 <el-maxo> ok
13:49:46 <billstclair> But others here might have different opinions
13:49:53 <pjb> mark and sweep is really simple.
13:49:54 <el-maxo> so how would the mark function find out which objects are used?
13:49:59 <pjb> reference counting is buggy.
13:50:05 <billstclair> Start from known roots. Follow all links
13:50:21 <billstclair> Known roots are symbols and the stack
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13:50:30 <pjb> See heap.lisp in https://gitorious.org/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/trees/master/common-lisp/heap
13:50:31 <billstclair> Which means you have to be able to recognize lisp objects on the stack
13:51:00 <pjb> You can consider that everything that's on the stack is a reference to a lisp object.  It's called "conservative GC" :-)
13:51:04 <billstclair> Sometimes there are other roots in your implementation
13:51:12 <billstclair> that works too
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13:52:19 <el-maxo> and but how can it know what is actually used?
13:52:29 <pjb> el-maxo: the compiler sets things up.
13:52:34 <billstclair> Anything you can get to from a known root is used
13:52:55 <billstclair> recursive descent
13:53:17 <pjb> el-maxo: either the compiler enforces some convention (eg. some registers are used only for lisp objects, the others for non-lisp objects), or it adds explicitely objects to the root set. (as in the case of my heap.lisp).
13:53:34 <el-maxo> so I keep a table of all allocated memory
13:53:54 <pjb> You maintain your root set.
13:54:19 <H4ns> el-maxo: no.  you assume that all your live data is linked from the root set, either directly or through other links.
13:55:26 <el-maxo> root set being global environment, and objects from the main function?
13:55:30 <pjb> You don't need to keep a table of allocated memory, because you can easily walk the memory and find all the blocks, either allocated or free.
13:55:47 <el-maxo> how can I walk the memory?
13:56:14 <pjb> By incrementing a pointer by the size of each object or free block.
13:56:23 <pjb> See heap.lisp url above.
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13:57:02 <billstclair> Each object needs to be tagged so that you can recognize what kind of object it is and its length and which of its contents are lisp object pointers.
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13:57:10 <billstclair> There are various ways of doing that
13:57:42 <billstclair> An "object" being a range of memory
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13:58:52 <billstclair> low bits tags are fairly common. E.g. the low 3 bits of a pointer tell you which kind of object it points to. Chars and fixnums are usually immediate. Cons cells point at two memory words, other objects have more type information in memory at the pointed address
13:59:51 <billstclair> Usually with some distinguishable value as the first word, so you can recognize it as an object header while sweeping
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14:01:29 *maxm--* is honestly awed by modern GC systems, that play with page tables and stuff to make their work easier
14:01:42 <el-maxo> but lets say all my objects have a length of 8bytes, what is the first pointer, and is incrementing some pointer I got from malloc not a guarantee for some kind of segfault?
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14:02:33 <pjb> el-maxo: see also http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/82408af998a4afb3?
14:02:39 <maxm--> ie most memory once GC done is marked read only, and is marked read/write on page by page basis (as code faults trying to write to read only page), thus if page stayed read-only, GC knows it could not have any pointers in it changed, and does not have to be scanned again
14:02:46 <billstclair> Use malloc only to add large sections to your heap. Initially, you can just allocate one big region of memory. Later, add more, and free them, when you run out, or gc back to not needing one
14:03:37 *Xach* is reminded of http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3238871095242925@naggum.no.html
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14:05:47 <el-maxo> ah ok
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14:07:02 <el-maxo> well this is a bigger thing than I thought
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14:08:17 <billstclair> I manged to squeeze it into a 16-bit address space for code and another 16-bit address space for the heap in 1979
14:08:24 <pjb> el-maxo: how so?  Have you had a look at the google group link above?
14:08:33 <billstclair> not that complicated. Though I didn't implement many object types
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14:20:40 <el-maxo> pjb: well I thought I could plug in a simple refcounting interface (use(ptr)/unuse(ptr)/collect-garbage(void)), but for a mark and sweep I need to implement my own heap with malloc/free etc
14:21:17 <dlowe> el-maxo: how were you planning to break reference cycles?
14:21:34 <pjb> Which is much easier and will give you correct results, contrarily to reference counting.
14:21:49 <dlowe> el-maxo: you do have one option, you realize. You could just not gc and crash when you run out of memory
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14:22:18 <el-maxo> dlowe: what a wonderful world would that be =)
14:22:43 <pjb> el-maxo: it worked well on LispMachines, and would well very well on my 24 GB RAM current machine :-)
14:22:57 <pjb> They just rebooted the lisp machines once a week.
14:23:03 <rudi> el-maxo: if you're implementing in C, you could perhaps just use the Boehm GC
14:23:20 <el-maxo> rudi: no, im afraid not
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14:23:52 <el-maxo> pjb: target is a device with 12Mhz and 2.5Kb Mem
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14:24:34 <pjb> I wouldn't use a GC on 2.5 KB of RAM.  Just implement a (system:free obj) function and call it explicitely.
14:24:40 <dlowe> el-maxo: I might suggest you have alloc/free system
14:24:42 <dlowe> heh
14:25:18 <pjb> or better, use static data.
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14:25:30 <dlowe> 2.5Kb, I think I'd just use forth and not try for a lisp
14:26:14 <p_l> yeah, I think I'd go with forth :)
14:26:19 <dlowe> if you really want a lisp that compiles to C, you could just use the sexp C variants
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14:27:07 <dlowe> it's not necessarily "a lisp" but it gets you real macros, I think
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14:27:07 <el-maxo> well, I am kind of locked in on this, its my final project for my apprenticeship
14:27:10 <Zhivago> I'd suggest thinking about the application before the language.
14:27:12 <dlowe> o
14:27:31 <el-maxo> its not even that dependent on the devie
14:27:42 <dlowe> we have a guild system?
14:27:42 <el-maxo> because I dont have it, and probably never will
14:28:07 <el-maxo> no in germany there is a path of education thats called "ausbildung"
14:28:14 <el-maxo> no idea how to properly translate that
14:28:52 <dlowe> de.wikipedia to the rescue
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14:29:34 <Zhivago> Perhaps "vocational".
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14:29:48 <twopi> apprenticeship is the correct translation
14:29:48 <dlowe> neat
14:29:54 <twopi> i also did one, but in switzerland
14:30:33 <dlowe> In the US, we call it "trade schooling"
14:30:37 <el-maxo> ha :_)
14:30:52 <twopi> yeah, in australia, where im originally from, apprenticeships are restricted to the trades
14:30:59 <el-maxo> its big bullshit (apprenticeship in germany / IT field)
14:31:21 <twopi> didn't finish my uni in oz, so did the apprenticeship here. was a way to get a job at the time
14:31:40 <dlowe> el-maxo: so back to the problem, do you HAVE to have a gc?
14:31:54 <dlowe> el-maxo: because a lisp can just as easily have malloc/free
14:32:04 <el-maxo> dlowe: to be honest nobody would notice if I hadnt I guess.
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14:32:19 <el-maxo> the whole project is more of a quest for myself
14:32:51 <pjb> In 2.5 KB of RAM, you wouldn't have a lot of different types.  I'd go for 30-bit fixnums, and 30-bit CONS cells.
14:32:54 <dlowe> and what you learn may be that using a gc for 2.5Kb is a bad idea
14:33:05 <el-maxo> yeah true
14:33:23 <el-maxo> but, (let ((x 10)) (free x) x) => nil?
14:33:37 <Posterdati> el-maxo: you're an apprentice?
14:33:39 <dlowe> el-maxo: you should still have a stack
14:33:53 <twopi> el-maxo: im guessing, if its purely functional, you can free it after it leaves the scope
14:33:53 <pjb> (let ((x (cons 10 nil))) (free x) x) -> undefined.
14:33:55 <Zhivago> So, what's the application of this lisp system?
14:34:08 <twopi> el-maxo: no references anywhere else..
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14:34:39 <twopi> el-maxo: so, you don';t have to explicitely free
14:34:47 <twopi> not sure if thats right
14:34:53 <el-maxo> Posterdati: yes
14:34:56 <Posterdati> el-maxo: don't you know the ways of the Force then...
14:35:20 <el-maxo> twopi: that was my first idea too, but after thinking alot about how to do it, I gave up
14:35:38 <el-maxo> Posterdati: force? I just know forze...
14:37:41 <Posterdati> ok
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14:38:13 <twopi> el-maxo: actually, if its purely functional, just put everything on the stack. then just pop the stack to free stuff
14:40:19 <el-maxo> how do I know if its purely functional?
14:40:32 <Zhivago> You might find Baker's paper on 'linear lisp' of interest.
14:40:46 <Zhivago> Being purely functional isn't necessary for that.
14:41:50 <twopi> el-maxo: no setq or similar, perhaps..
14:42:16 <twopi> el-maxo: only 'let' and function parameters can assign values...
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14:42:28 <twopi> give names to values, i mean..
14:43:08 <el-maxo> yeah I have that
14:43:39 <el-maxo> i have a define primitive but its only supposed to work on the toplevel before anything else
14:44:03 <el-maxo> as in global environment
14:44:29 <el-maxo> actually I don't even have let, its implemented as a macro
14:45:47 <twopi> using lambdas?
14:45:58 <el-maxo> yep
14:46:43 <pjb> http://www.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/MetaCircular.html
14:46:44 <twopi> well, you could collect memory (pop the stack) when the lambda is left...
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14:47:28 <twopi> pjb: sweet, i was looking for that! found it a year or two back, and couldnt remember what it was called.. never had a chance to read it.. thx
14:47:29 <el-maxo> axioms are: quote, smybolic= (eq), cell (cons), first, rest, cond, lambda and some type specific stuff, like lambda?/lambdap
14:48:09 <el-maxo> pjb: I read that, beng interested, but didn't really understand ;)
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14:50:26 <twopi> el-maxo: are you interpreting the lisp, or compiling it?
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14:53:07 <pjb> el-maxo: that paper shows how you can write let as a macro expanding to lambda, and other similar things.
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14:55:14 <pjb> el-maxo: why the 2.5 K RAM limitation?  Spend $25 on a rasperberry pi and get 128 MEGA bytes of rRAM!
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14:58:36 <twopi> pjb: aren't they only making 10000 of those things in the first batch?
14:59:00 <el-maxo> twopi: compiling
14:59:03 <pjb> They'll probably have a very big market. I intend to buy two Pi B for a start.
14:59:14 <el-maxo> Id like to get a couple too
14:59:20 <twopi> pjb: i suspect they'll sell out quicklyu
14:59:24 <el-maxo> me too
14:59:25 <Posterdati> pjb: what is that?
14:59:34 <pjb> Posterdati: http://www.raspberrypi.org/faqs
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15:00:02 <twopi> costs almost the same as my arduino board..
15:00:04 <el-maxo> its a typical hype product, which doesnt seem to be supposed to sell, its just a media hype aroundbthe creator like OLPC
15:00:27 <el-maxo> always wanted an OLPC, never got one
15:00:29 <twopi> hype, definately..
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15:00:36 <twopi> cool none the less
15:00:49 <jdz> pjb: since when is the CPU ARM11?
15:01:06 <pjb> It's better than the OLPC: it's a building block. You can use it to make anything, from bots to concealed servers.
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15:01:14 <el-maxo> my love goes to http://www.alix-board.de/produkte/alix1d.html
15:01:29 <el-maxo> I know its cool
15:01:36 <Posterdati> pjb: the ideal platform for my robot!
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15:01:41 <el-maxo> I just doubt that they will reach me with the product
15:01:47 <p_l> jdz: the cpu was always an ARM1176
15:01:52 <pjb> el-maxo: yes, but the Pi is $25 or $35.
15:02:00 <jdz> pjb: oh, nvm, that's still the ARMv6 arch, which is not supported by ccl
15:02:21 <pjb> el-maxo: and the Mini ITX board won't run on 4 AA batteries.
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15:02:37 <el-maxo> pjb: if I will actually be able to get one for 35pounds(! that is) I take everything back
15:02:38 <pjb> jdz: time for a new port :-)
15:03:02 <el-maxo> but I want 10 for 300, then I'd like to prototype networking applications
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15:05:02 <Posterdati> pjb: no mention about i2c or spi possibilities
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15:09:36 <Posterdati> pjb: do you know if it has got i2c/spi ports?
15:09:55 <p_l> Posterdati: Pi got GPIO
15:09:59 <H4ns> Posterdati: i think there is one spi and one i2c on the gpio header
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15:10:10 <Posterdati> H4ns: perfect!
15:10:29 <Posterdati> then invesense chip would fit!
15:10:31 <Posterdati> :)
15:10:34 <H4ns> Posterdati: but please check the schematics to make sure that it has what you need.
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16:15:19 <madnificent> hefner: herep
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16:17:00 <hefner> madnificent: what's up?
16:17:31 <madnificent> in the mixalot library, you can play music like you said in your blog post
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16:18:43 <madnificent> it isn't exactly clear what the numbers in the vector actually mean
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16:19:11 <madnificent> how should i create a simple continuous tone?
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02:28:49 -!- names: ccl-logbot karswell kennyd gemelen CrazyThinker attila_lendvai sshirokov srcerer Jabberwockey a7p anonus guther levi sbryant mathrick_ TristamWrk flip214 daniel kleppari rvncerr limetree jsnell cpape arnsholt mal C-Keen timb clog pnq SurlyFrog echo-area kanru` Kron_ homie wbooze ddp Jubb LiamH wuj jbiesnecker yoklov nitro_idiot neoesque Bacteria rme xyxu theBlackDragon airolson seangrove z0d djuber dnolen kpreid Posterdati _schulte_ [SLB] ghuntley_
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02:35:27 <madnificent> does anyone have experience with #'swank-backend:declaration-arglist i don't seem to be able to get it working the way it should.  ie: i define it for a function, but don't see the reflected changes in the hints i receive in the repl.
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02:36:13 <madnificent> it is defined in swank-backend.lisp
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02:39:34 <homie> wtf, insert-record and delte-record are asymmetrical in their slot content, and someone uses change-class from one to other ?
02:39:37 <rtoym> madnificent: You need your own version of it because it's not working correctly?
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02:40:07 <homie> trying to add the slot ok i see, but there's no way of getting rid of the slot not ?
02:40:16 <homie> if vice-versa
02:41:15 <homie> no wonder i get the there's not lenght slot in object error here then
02:41:38 <homie> on undo in climacs
02:41:47 <pjb> madnificent: what's the problem?  (defmethod swank-backend:declaration-arglist ((op (eql 'my-op))) '(&rest r &key a b c))  (swank-backend:declaration-arglist 'my-op)
02:42:11 <madnificent> rtoym: i want to give the programmer hints on the keywords he can use, however the total amount of arguments may either be either even or uneven.  so the only way to give the programmer the needed hints seems to be to give swank an alternative argslist
02:42:24 <pjb> madnificent: can't you type (documentation 'swank-backend:declaration-arglist 'function) ?
02:42:39 <madnificent> pjb: yes, that's what i did.  however, if you now type (my-op  in the repl, do you get the &rest r &key a b c hint?
02:43:02 <madnificent> pjb: you're demeaning today btw, that's not fun
02:43:15 <pjb> No, indeed, not.
02:43:37 *madnificent* is puzzled by that not showing
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02:45:13 <pjb> More learning of slime/swank is in order.
02:45:40 <rtoym> I get it.
02:46:51 <rtoym> I just typed in the repl "(defun foo (a) (declare (my-op " and the mode-line shows &rest r &key a b c hint.
02:46:53 <Vivitron> just traced swank-backend:declaration-arglist and swank-backend::arglist; arglist hinting apears to come from the latter.
02:47:13 <madnificent> rtoym: care to elaborate?
02:47:54 <rtoym> madnificent: Elaborate what?  I entered what pjb wrote.  I typed in what I wrote in the repl and I get the &rest in the mode-line as a hint.
02:48:13 <madnificent> rtoym: ah, i see
02:48:26 <madnificent> hmm, that's not what i expected to have :(
02:48:34 <pjb> Neither do I get it.
02:49:20 <Aethaeryn> Is there a good open source "Lisp machine" operating system? The closest thing to a Lisp-based operating system I can find is emacs, and that lacks a kernel.
02:49:29 <rtoym> Based on the code and the name declaration-arglist, it looks like it's a hint for what kind of things can follow a declaration.
02:50:41 <rtoym> movitz?
02:51:03 <madnificent> rtoym: you're right
02:51:17 <madnificent> rtoym, pjb: it seems like a similar system hasn't been implemented for methods either
02:51:21 <madnificent> or functions
02:52:10 <pjb> read swank-backend:arglist, perhaps you'll find where/-how to store the data.
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02:55:29 <Vivitron> swank-backend arglist mostly just calls whatever implementation specific code digs up an arglist
02:56:03 <pjb> So you would have to make it a generic function to be able to shadow an arglist.
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02:57:39 <Aethaeryn> I've read a lot of fairly convincing arguments about why Lisp is the best language, but why isn't it more popular if that is the case?
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02:59:43 <madnificent> pjb: i could introduce a generic function named extensible-arglist and publish that...
03:00:42 <rtoym> So you want to be able to show an arglist for a function?  Why not just define the function?
03:01:01 <madnificent> i'd have to edit multiple files.  i think i can get it running, but i doubt such a change would be welcomed by the slime wizkids.  are there any on #lisp who might 'promote' the change?
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03:01:17 *rtoym* doesn't understand what is desired.
03:02:39 <madnificent> rtoym: two possible reasons: in my case, the arglist doesn't contain the actual function definition.  meaning: i have both &rest and &key.  i somehow want to inform my users about which keys exist, but the amount of arguments given might be either even or odd.  another reason could be to support things like &any, which isn't in the standard, but is supported by swank.
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03:02:48 <madnificent> s/swank/slime/ though swank is correct also.
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03:05:09 <rtoym> So showing "&rest r &key a b c " isn't good enough?
03:06:33 <madnificent> rtoym: nope, that only allows for an even amount of arguments in r
03:06:52 <madnificent> rtoym: and the clhs seems to make that mandatory.  but that was my initial approach
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03:11:22 <quazimodo> HOLLA
03:11:23 <kenanb> Aethaeryn: same reason the mass programmer profile is not the best programmer
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03:14:32 <austinh> When using symbols purely for identity as part of an API, is it preferred to export them or use the keyword package?
03:14:53 <kenanb> Aethaeryn: mass user is not great at making great choices
03:14:56 <austinh> The only example I can think of is Postmodern's s-sql package, which uses keywords.
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03:17:02 <Aethaeryn> kenanb: Well, what I meant is that if it allows programmers to be more efficient (in this case, let's assume for simplicity that you can code Program X twice as fast in Lisp than in Java), then it doesn't matter what *most* people think. A handful of Lisp programmers ought to be able to out-program everyone else.
03:18:15 <kenanb> Aethaeryn: do they?
03:18:24 <didi> Xach: Is it possible to instruct Quicklisp to only load parts of a library? For example, `cl-gtk2-gtk' uses most of its loading time loading `gtk-examples' and `gtk-demo' which, by the names, I figure are not strict necessary.
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03:19:19 <kenanb> hi dto , i was just asking about you
03:19:27 <dto> hello ken
03:19:30 <dto> kenanb
03:19:46 <kenanb> couldn't find any recent post of yours, i guess you stopped blogging lately?
03:20:16 <wbooze> you have to write a wrapper method (around form) for asdf:load op
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03:20:38 <wbooze> and do things, like only load things which you desire or unload things which are already loaded
03:20:48 <dto> kenanb: i haven't been blogging, no. i'm still actively making stuff, though. i'll probably have more stuff to publicly release soon http://ompldr.org/vY2ptcw/xalcyon-dual-analog.ogv
03:21:19 <kenanb> ah, cool
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03:22:02 <dto> kenanb: the collision detection is done with quadtrees that i implemented in lisp :)
03:22:07 <dto> its pretty fast
03:22:43 <dto> plus, this is controlled with the dual analog sticks of a usb gamepad. i've got code to detect gamepads and auto configure.
03:22:50 <dto> kenanb: how have you been doing?
03:23:34 <didi> wbooze: Hum. Interesting. Although I do not know where to start as I only do a (ql:quickload "cl-gtk2-gtk").
03:23:44 <kenanb> dto: well, i am doing ok, been busy learning factor for some time, than i realized i miss lisp :)
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03:24:31 <dto> i've heard that factor is like forth?
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03:24:45 <kenanb> dto: it is more like lisp than forth actually
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03:24:56 <kenanb> the syntax is forth, but nearly everything else is lisp
03:25:06 <dto> oh wow.
03:25:08 <sezo> hi
03:25:16 <kenanb> oop is mostly CLOS influenced
03:25:28 <kenanb> gui framework is CLIM influenced
03:26:01 <kenanb> except it is working great :D
03:26:55 <sezo> someone told me it is possible to create a C++-like switch statement that accepts strings in less than 10 lines of code. is that true?
03:26:59 <sezo> in lisp
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03:28:28 <austinh> sezo: It is unclear what you are asking.
03:28:49 <dto> kenanb: awesome.
03:28:50 <sezo> i mean can you create a switch like syntax that accepts strings in < 10 lines of code
03:29:01 <dto> kenanb i still have my archive of posts, i'll be putting them back up sometime
03:29:03 <sezo> or can you at all?
03:29:31 <dto> accepts what strings sezo
03:29:47 <kenanb> dto: it would be great! but i guess it is not the case with videos?
03:29:50 <sezo> switch statement that can accepts strings not just ints, like it does in C
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03:29:57 <madnificent> is there something like make-symbol which also works correctly in lisps with modern-mode enabled?
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03:30:32 <austinh> sezo: Yes.
03:30:34 <kenanb> Aethaeryn: btw 2010 AI challange results http://planetwars.aichallenge.org/rankings.php
03:30:55 <dto> kenanb: while all the software is still available, some of my videos are lost
03:31:11 <sezo> I just mentioned to someone that I wish you could switch on strings, and he told me if I used lisp I could write the syntax myself. was just curious if it was possible, and how
03:31:31 <madnificent> dto: that video looks quite awesome
03:31:51 <kenanb> Aethaeryn: but it doesn't mean we all outperform people coding in other languages, as the language itself coders have varying capacity, i myself will never be the ueber coder that will avail all goodies of lisp, but it doesn't hurt to use it nonetheless
03:31:51 <dto> madnificent: do you have a usb gamepad with dual analog sticks?
03:31:54 <austinh> sezo: You could do it with a macro. If you want to know more, then pickup a Lisp book.
03:32:23 <madnificent> dto: no, i think few people do
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03:33:02 <madnificent> dto: but to be fair, if people want to play it, such a thing probably costs 10 euros on ebay
03:33:02 <sezo> austinh I might it got me curious. got any recommendations?
03:33:15 <dto> madnificent: exactly, plus many indie gamers have such pads for use with emulators
03:33:21 <austinh> sezo: Practical Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available for free online
03:33:39 <Aethaeryn> kenanb: so the winner is Lisp, but that's the only entry :-/
03:33:43 <Aethaeryn> on page 1
03:34:24 *madnificent* sees 4:33 on his clock and realizes he'll have to finish this thing tomorrow.  goodnight #lisp
03:34:46 <Aethaeryn> kenanb: But does Lisp make you a good programmer or do good programmers use Lisp?
03:35:52 <austinh> sezo: Or you could just learn Javascript, if all you want is a switch statement that works with strings.
03:36:01 <sezo> haha
03:36:01 <dto> neither. i'm a lousy programmer that i can't get much done without heavyweight kitchen-sink languages such as common lisp and emacs lisp
03:36:22 <madnificent> Aethaeryn: being a better programmer and being more productive because of the language are different things still.  i get more done in lisp and i guess i've gotten a clearer view on programming constructs because of it.
03:36:40 <sezo> actually it was the ability to write that myself that got my curiousity. i know many languages can switch on strings
03:36:48 <DataLinkAway> Aethaeryn: nothing will make a person a good programmer who doesn't want to be. :-)
03:36:52 <sezo> and thanks I've bookmarked that book. just out of curiousity, are lisp macros comparable to C++ ones in some ways?
03:37:02 <austinh> sezo: No, they are very different.
03:38:08 <sezo> in what way?
03:38:33 <DataLinkAway> Lisp macros produce arbitrary code to feed to the compiler at "run time", as opposed to what you think of as "compile time".
03:38:51 <austinh> C style macros only do string substitution (and insert dates and line numbers and crap like that).
03:39:00 <|3b|> c++ macros just paste text together, CL macros let you do complex manipulation of the code being compiled, using a sane/powerful language (CL itself)
03:39:21 <p_l> Aethaeryn: I'd say that lisp might open your mind if you mainly used mainstream or heh, semi-mainstream languages
03:39:21 <dto> kenanb: if you are hungry for recent blog posts, will you settle for a recent interview on someone elses blog?
03:39:23 <dto> kenanb: http://www.indiegaminginsider.com/2012/01/30/interview-with-david-otoole/
03:40:06 <kenanb> dto: ah, cool, reading
03:40:16 <Aethaeryn> p_l: So you're saying that Lisp is the key on the road to enlightenment?
03:40:29 <p_l> Aethaeryn: more like one of the tools
03:40:33 <DataLinkAway> C++ template meta programming is closer to Lisp macros, but Lisp macros are more powerful, as well as easier to program.
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03:42:37 <p_l> Aethaeryn: it provides easy and malleable ways to do some stuff that belongs in the "enlightened programmer" set, IMHO - writing programs that write programs, etc.
03:42:39 <|3b|> sezo: for example most of the iteration constructs in CL are macros, which usually expand to a sort of limited scope goto form... it would be hard to do the same with c++ macros
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03:45:58 <p_l> Aethaeryn: Personally I don't care much (anymore) for the mystic approach, but CL hits the sweet spot for me regarding how easy certain things are
03:46:22 <p_l> after that, there's Haskell, Erlang, C and Ruby
03:49:00 <Aethaeryn> p_l: Not Python?
03:49:44 *Cosman246* shivers at the mention of Haskell
03:49:57 <Cosman246> I haven't used it, but it sounds a bit like 'Pascal'
03:50:13 <Cosman246> and I've heard they try to do *everything* without side effects
03:50:20 <Bike> You should try it.
03:50:22 <p_l> Aethaeryn: I used python a lot at one point, but it lost a lot of its luster for me. Ruby is there for quick'n'dirty when the libs are there and deadlines are short
03:50:24 <Cosman246> <.< >.>
03:50:36 <Bike> There's a Wikibook on implementing Scheme in it.
03:50:38 <p_l> ... that might be a function in some haskell package
03:50:41 <Cosman246> Bike: I *should*.
03:50:47 <Cosman246> Doesn't mean I will
03:50:49 <p_l> (the <.< and >.>
03:50:50 <p_l> )
03:50:52 <kenanb> Aethaeryn: i would search for "practical common lisp" and start reading instead of trying to trust the judgement skills of complete strangers like me, you are obviously sceptical about the answers, then why asking instead of trying yourself?
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03:53:11 <kenanb> Aethaeryn: at least Peter Seibel, who is a well-known lisper, will try to convince you in using lisp instead of me, who is an architecture undergrad with no proper CS education
03:54:03 <Aethaeryn> kenanb: I'm on http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/lather-rinse-repeat-a-tour-of-the-repl.html and stuck at installing slime into my emacs :-P
03:54:26 <kenanb> Aethaeryn: search for "quicklisp"
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03:54:50 <Aethaeryn> slime in the emacs package thing seems to want to also have clojure, and doesn't seem to recognize my clojure install
03:54:58 <kenanb> it does nearly everything for you in 4-5 commands
03:54:59 <Cosman246> Don't use clojure
03:55:13 <Cosman246> Just...
03:55:34 <Aethaeryn> I do M-x slime and it says "It looks like Clojure is not installed. Install now? (y or n)"
03:55:43 <Cosman246> n
03:55:51 <Cosman246> You must have gotten the wrong slime
03:55:57 <kennyd> Aethaeryn this channel is about common lisp
03:56:02 <Cosman246> a package configured for Clojure
03:56:03 <p_l> Aethaeryn: sounds like you got some version that was patched with clojuritis
03:56:18 <Cosman246> Delete it immediately
03:56:22 <Cosman246> and get Quicklisp
03:56:35 <Cosman246> then, (ql:quickload "slime-helper")
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03:58:59 <Aethaeryn> is there some bot in here that autolinks to things like quicklisp?
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03:59:13 <austinh> There used to be.
03:59:17 <Aethaeryn> Yes, I'm aware of Google. This is for future reference
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03:59:59 <p_l> Aethaeryn: there used to be, but it wasn't really maintained and dies often
04:00:02 <Aethaeryn> ah
04:00:14 <Aethaeryn> so quicklisp should be able to install slime in my emacs?
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04:00:23 <Cosman246> Yeah
04:00:54 <kennyd> you need to have CL implementation installed first though. then follow instructions to install quicklisp
04:01:06 <kanru`> so is anyone willing to host a new bot?
04:01:34 <wbooze> erm, i would but i can't set mine up yet
04:01:54 <p_l> kanru`: hosting is not a problem. Taking care of it, otoh...
04:01:58 <wbooze> and i don't know if the channel allows it
04:02:14 <Cosman246> Aethaeryn: which implementation are you using, on which OS?
04:02:27 <kanru`> p_l: of course that one would have to maintain it ;)
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04:03:36 <p_l> kanru`: minion was hosted by tech.coop, I think, so that's covered. It's just that you'd need to probably a) patch/update cl-irc b) correct the bot and update it
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04:04:29 <Cosman246> Are you there?
04:05:15 <sezo> so what lisp implementation is usually recommended for  OS X?
04:05:34 <p_l> sezo: I'd go with CCL, then SBCL, from the free ones
04:05:40 <p_l> LW for commercial
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04:10:04 <Cosman246> Aethaeryn?
04:10:28 <sezo> installed. have interpreter running. :)
04:13:05 <Aethaeryn> Cosman246: I link lisp/clisp to sbcl
04:13:20 <Aethaeryn> on Fedora 16
04:13:55 <Cosman246> Ooh, cool
04:14:21 <Cosman246> but CLisp is another implementation, not an abbrev. for CL
04:14:25 <Cosman246> just heads up
04:14:30 <Aethaeryn> oh sorry
04:14:37 <Cosman246> It's OK
04:14:43 <Aethaeryn> typo
04:14:46 <Aethaeryn> cl
04:15:00 <Cosman246> Anyway, it should work then
04:15:09 <Aethaeryn> lisp/cl
04:15:42 <Cosman246> Just load quicklisp.lisp
04:15:53 <Cosman246> (quicklisp-quickstart:install)
04:16:33 <wbooze> there's an error in lift/timout/with-timout.lisp the #+cmu form has an sb-ext in it's body which should be just ext
04:16:33 <Cosman246> (ql:add-to-init-file)
04:16:33 <Cosman246> (ql:quickload "quicklisp-slime-helper")
04:16:33 <wbooze> just a typo maybe, but remind the packagers
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04:29:04 <Cosman246> Aethaeryn: is it working?
04:29:23 <Aethaeryn> I am on a terminal only right now.
04:29:38 <Aethaeryn> irssi/ssh on my phone
04:30:22 <Cosman246> ah
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04:35:52 <Cosman246> Wait, you're using a phone to do this?
04:36:09 <Aethaeryn> no
04:36:19 <Cosman246> Oh
04:36:29 <Aethaeryn> I just am checking downstairs while eating
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04:37:24 <Cosman246> Oh, I see
04:39:05 <sezo> what's the right way of writing this?  (defun add (a b) (return (+ a b)) ?
04:39:19 <sbryant> no need for return
04:39:28 <sezo> i'm getting weird errors
04:39:32 <sbryant> the last expression evaluated will be returned
04:40:58 <kenanb> so it is (defun add (a b) (+ a b))
04:40:58 <sbryant> Yep
04:40:58 <sezo> ah
04:41:33 <sbryant> sezo are you using slime and emacs?
04:42:02 <sezo> nice that worked. no I'm typing right into interpreter right now
04:42:16 <sbryant> If so C-c C-d h over a symbol will look that symbol up in the hyperspec. Great for looking things up
04:42:28 <sbryant> Example: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/m_return.htm
04:42:38 <pnathan> Does anyone have some good links to restart-case/restart-bind? I've stared at PCL and the Hyperspec and found myself confused.
04:43:12 <sezo> what is slime? i know emacs
04:43:36 <sbryant> Superior Lisp Interaction Mode for Emacs: http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/
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04:44:54 <sbryant> pnathan: have you read: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw60/CLHS/Body/09_a.htm ?
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04:45:08 <pnathan> Yes.
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04:45:43 <sbryant> So the restarts are programatic ways of handling conditions
04:46:00 <sbryant> So if you have a known error that can occur you can have a "happy" path of handling it
04:46:23 <sbryant> I believe the PCL example was correcting problems in the binary file parser
04:47:02 <pnathan> So does restart-bind define the handlers, or does handler-bind?
04:47:02 <pnathan> Or are they used in conjunction?
04:47:03 <sbryant> handler-bind
04:47:15 <sbryant> ^
04:47:24 <sbryant> So you ever mess up and error out in the repl?
04:47:35 <sbryant> You'll be presented with restarts
04:47:39 <pnathan> So a handler. handles. And does it call restarts?
04:48:12 <sbryant> a handler can invoke a restart
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04:49:51 <sbryant> The interactive restarts are the best example I can think of
04:50:18 <sbryant> When things fail to load or compile you'll usually see a few restarts. like continue, abort, restart, recompile, terminate thread
04:50:41 <sbryant> you can say, if this condition is signaled, use this restart
04:50:48 <pnathan> So say I have an error.. let's assume it to be a SIMPLE-ERROR, just for the sake of discussion. I would have a form (handler-bind ((simple-error #'(lambda (x) )) (forms.)
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04:51:33 <sbryant> http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw60/CLHS/Body/09_adb.htm
04:52:15 <pnathan> So handler-bind invoke-restarts on restarts.
04:52:36 <sbryant> uh
04:52:38 <pnathan> ?
04:53:20 <sbryant> I think I have confused you and myself in this explanation
04:53:38 <pnathan> Ah.
04:57:09 <sbryant> http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw60/CLHS/Body/m_rst_ca.htm#restart-case
04:57:18 <sbryant> That is a pretty complete example at the end
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04:58:26 *pnathan* ponders how it would work without interactivity
04:58:38 <sbryant> You would most likely use a handler
04:59:01 <sbryant> restarts are interactive
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05:02:35 <pnathan> I thought restarts were typically used for more non-continuous flows of control and the interactivity was simply a facet of that...
05:04:25 <sbryant> I've gotta go but I would re-read the PCL chapter on conditions, handlers and restarts
05:05:43 <sbryant> It goes through setting up a restart case for the log analyzer. And then a handler to invoke the restart automatically when a malformed error is signaled
05:05:49 <sbryant> so that's how they can work together
05:06:59 <sbryant> Make more sense?
05:08:14 <sbryant> I hope so, sorry for being confusing
05:08:33 <pnathan> I will stare at PCL again
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07:01:08 *Cosman246* looks around
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07:07:23 <kiuma> hello lispers
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07:12:25 <Cosman246> Hi kiuma
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07:12:49 <Ralith> Cosman246: haskell is awesome and you should learn it.
07:13:15 <ruru> coi
07:15:41 <Cosman246> Ralith: I would, but it looks scary from my view here
07:16:34 <Ralith> Cosman246: that is due to gratuitous use of obscure math terminology, it's actually not hard to pick up
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07:17:57 <Ralith> also the community is nice
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07:32:47 <kami> Good morning
07:33:49 <mvilleneuve> good morning
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07:43:58 <wbooze> wahahahahahaa
07:44:25 <wbooze> garnet working on cmucl now
07:45:12 <phadthai> :)
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08:02:23 <Aethaeryn> For a 359 person channel, this isn't bad
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08:24:19 <H4ns> "sbcl: /lib64/libc.so.6: version `GLIBC_2.14' not found (required by sbcl)", thoughts?
08:24:24 <H4ns> (this is with amazon linux)
08:25:58 <Cosman246> Hey, Aethaeryn
08:26:06 <Cosman246> Did it end up working?
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08:26:49 <Kryztof> H4ns: unfortunately whoever built sbcl binaries did so on a system with wounded-edge glibc.  There's no actual source dependency on glibc-2.14, but you'll have to build it yourself to link against earlier versions
08:26:50 <derrida> H4ns: you don't have the appropriate glibc that sbcl is wanting
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08:28:58 <H4ns> Kryztof: can i build sbcl with ccl?
08:29:03 <Kryztof> I'm not sure
08:29:34 <H4ns> Kryztof: my plan was to build, that's why i wanted to install the binary in the first place.  what other compiler could i use?
08:29:43 <Kryztof> an older sbcl
08:29:52 *H4ns* digs
08:29:55 <H4ns> Kryztof: thanks!
08:29:57 <Kryztof> I think older sbcl binaries aren't linked against scary glibc
08:30:15 <Kryztof> clisp also works, I believe, if you build with make.sh "clisp -on-error continue -ansi"
08:30:31 <tensorpudding> 2.14 has been out for seven months though
08:30:34 <tensorpudding> several distros probably have it by now
08:30:35 <Kryztof> yeah, and Debian Stable has been out for 19 years
08:30:48 <derrida> debian refuses to update :P
08:31:16 <tensorpudding> latest ubuntu has 2.13
08:31:51 <tensorpudding> debian stable has 2.11
08:32:00 <tensorpudding> sounds like rapid development
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08:33:07 <H4ns> ok, 1.0.37 binarys work.  thanks, Kryztof
08:33:25 <flip214> well, for SBCL debian is not that far behind ... http://packages.debian.org/changelogs/pool/main/s/sbcl/sbcl_1.0.55.0-1/changelog
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08:53:43 <Blkt> good morning everyone
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10:15:44 <H4ns> i'm trying to reduce the memory footprint of my application.  in sbcl, is there a way to represent strings with one byte per character?
10:17:12 <H4ns> (i.e. would an explicit conversion to strings of base-char save memory?)
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10:22:19 <flip214> H4ns: that's what I'd expect ... although that doesn't mean anything, of course ;/
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10:26:05 <H4ns> flip214: right.  i was looking for actual knowledge, not help in speculation.
10:26:18 <flip214> you're welcome ;)
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11:04:26 <splittist> morning
11:06:08 <amaron> hello
11:06:12 <amaron> quiet morning
11:08:22 <splittist> Had a three-hour train ride so I thought - I'll see if I can solve this problem in lisp (which I barely remember). Five minutes later - now what?
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11:25:19 <Xach> splittist: is your blog permanently gone?
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11:31:26 <frx> hello
11:31:43 <frx> is there a keymap inspecting last returned value?
11:31:52 <frx> slime inspector
11:32:27 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@222.68.158.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
11:32:46 <Xach> C-c I * RET
11:33:15 <frx> thanks
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11:35:43 <frx> slime inspector is great
11:36:20 *trebor_dki* likes slime-who-calls ;)
11:36:23 <frx> I mapped (slime-inspect "*") to a key. 9% of hte time I want to inspect *
11:36:27 <frx> 99%
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11:37:03 <frx> trebor_dki  yeah useful too
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12:07:21 <Posterdati> hi
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12:12:13 <scrimohsin> 'morning.
12:13:01 <homie> morning
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12:36:57 <H4ns> Xach: i got the release done.  edi won't update the tarball in the canonical location until later today though.  https://github.com/downloads/edicl/drakma/drakma-1.2.5.tar.gz is where you can get it now.
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12:50:46 <madnificent> H4ns: ooh, a new drakma :)
12:53:53 <H4ns> madnificent: nothing to get too excited about.
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12:57:37 <H4ns> madnificent: but if you could test it and report any issues, it'd be appreciated!
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13:05:54 <Xach> H4ns: thanks
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13:12:13 <neena> i/msg u	uisdhsI don't think she does
13:12:42 <neena> erm, ssh lag, apologies.
13:12:48 <jdz> neena: that's for you vim user!
13:12:57 <neena> :(
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13:17:19 <cfy> do emacser swap capslock and ctrl?
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13:17:41 <trebor_dki> nope
13:17:52 <cfy> i have set the capslock=ctrl,and i'm using dvorak keyboard layout.
13:18:07 <cfy> oh
13:18:12 <Xach> cfy: i don't swap. i make capslock an additional ctrl.
13:18:18 *Xach* has never intentionally used capslock
13:18:27 <cfy> Xach: i know you don't swap :D
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13:18:47 <cfy> Xach: sorry.
13:18:48 *trebor_dki* needs capslog for online-banking ;)
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13:20:18 <cfy> Xach: do you use dvorak?
13:21:10 <Xach> I don't.
13:21:20 <dlowe> I use colemak
13:22:39 <cfy> it seems that colemak is more unusual then dvorak :D
13:22:43 <amaron> dlowe: how did you get used to it?
13:23:04 <dlowe> amaron: it took a while.
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13:23:19 <cfy> amaron: do you know dvora?
13:23:19 <amaron> I tried dvorak once and I felt like suddenly unable to speak
13:23:20 <cfy> amaron: do you know dvorak?
13:23:32 <amaron> I gave up
13:23:39 <H4ns> did i mention that sbcl is awesomely fast?  and yes, base-char on sbcl uses 1 byte per character.  life's good.
13:24:04 <cfy> amaron: if you can take a week to type and don't care of the speed.you will used to it :)
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13:24:30 <amaron> cfy: I have no time
13:24:37 <cfy> amaron: :D
13:25:02 <Xach> H4ns: sbcl is pretty sweet
13:25:17 <H4ns> Xach: i'm coming to that conclusion, yes.
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13:25:49 <Xach> Are you in the USA again?
13:25:58 <H4ns> Xach: in two weeks, for three weeks
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13:26:33 <hefner> oh, cruel base-char. you give me seven bits, but keep one for yourself.
13:27:13 <H4ns> hefner: i recognize that. why is it so?
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13:31:05 <hefner> H4ns: I think xof explained that it lets you optimize output of base-chars to streams with utf-8 external-format, because they never have to be escaped (and similarly for output to latin1, no need to check for unencodable characters)
13:31:53 <hefner> (seems like a good reason to me)
13:31:58 <H4ns> hefner: ah, that's indeed nice.
13:34:30 <jsnell> is that just a theoretical benefit, or something that's actually implemented?
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13:38:21 <Guthur> array-element-type seems less than useful considering its return is implementation dependent
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13:40:02 <hefner> jsnell: http://repo.or.cz/w/sbcl.git/blob/5465e5e0ec897a751a4ba4751cb84394995c07cf:/src/code/octets.lisp#l443 looks like the right thing
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13:42:19 <pjb> Guthur: it's very useful. For example to make a displaced array: (make-array (array-dimensions original) :element-type (array-element-type original) :displaced-to original).
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13:43:45 <Guthur> pjb but surely you can not guarantee the type is any more specific that t
13:43:57 <Guthur> than*
13:44:09 <pjb> The important point is that it's the same type for the displaced array and the original array.
13:44:24 <pjb> Sure, an implementation can implement only arrays of T.
13:44:35 <splittist> Xach: do you think it's time for my annual update?
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13:46:24 <Xach> splittist: no time like the present
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13:46:58 <Guthur> pjb it doesn't guarantee it is the specifity as the original, the spec example has impl dependent for all but t
13:47:01 <pjb> Xach: I'd argue that.
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13:47:32 <pjb> Guthur: actually, there's one other array type that must be supported: nil.
13:48:26 <jdz> Guthur: and then there is UPGRADED-ARRAY-ELEMENT-TYPE
13:48:39 *splittist* breaks his blog ):
13:48:40 <jdz> Guthur: if you want to know what your implementation will do
13:48:54 <pjb> Xach: the 60's were better than the present, and one can expect the future (> 50 years) to be better than the present.  Actually, I kind of see the present as a local minimum.  But then, of course, we never had as powerful computers as nowadays (even if in the future they should be even more powerful, unless politically restricted).
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13:49:38 <jsnell> hefner: nice. I was actually thinking of streams, but I guess the same or better optimization is likely to be there too then
13:49:42 <Xach> pjb: Pay closer attention, old man.
13:50:13 <Guthur> jdz that seems a bit more useful
13:51:06 <pjb> Xach: and of course, politicians are worse and worse with each election.  ACTA, etc.
13:51:07 <jdz> Guthur: make sure you check the Notes
13:51:23 <pjb> It's really crazy, and I still more and more would like to build a space ship and get away.
13:51:24 *Guthur* is trying to decide how to achieve different functionality for specific arrays
13:52:04 <jdz> i want to build SkyNet and get rid of the plage once and for all
13:53:43 <Xach> plage has already left permanently, it seems
13:54:06 <pjb> Anybody knows why?
13:54:56 <madnificent> Guthur: i think you can extend clos for that
13:55:24 <madnificent> pjb: no, i've wondered also
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13:56:48 <Guthur> I wonder if he will go to els this year
13:56:49 <Guthur> plage is beach, right?
13:57:31 <pjb> Yes.
13:57:31 <pjb> From different computers.
13:58:17 <Guthur> he was there last year
13:58:22 <Xach> pjb: You have a recent tendency to post to cll before reading and thinking too. What's the rush? Slow down.
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13:58:43 <pjb> Yes, that's good advice.
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14:07:29 <hypno> Luke's talk at ECLM 2011 is still not available anywhere, is it?
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14:09:24 <Xach> I haven't heard about it
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14:10:17 <chr> Anyone using clod for extracting documentation into .org-files?
14:10:18 <H4ns> hypno: i think he did not want it to be published
14:11:18 <chr> clod is written by Paul Sexton, it's at https://bitbucket.org/eeeickythump/clod
14:11:36 <hypno> H4ns: Ah, ok.
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14:16:14 *Xach* adds clod
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14:24:16 *chr* quickloads clod
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14:28:36 <splittist> Xach: look upon what you have wrought http://blog.splittist.com/2012/01/31/a-year-of-living-vi-rously/
14:29:42 *Xach* crys
14:30:16 <flip214> splittist: why, oh why did you leave vim ....
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14:31:22 <maxm--> following #lisp on twitter the funniest part are random college girls twits about someone with actual lisp
14:31:52 <Xach> maxm--: lots of those :~(
14:31:53 <pjb> splittist: crazy!
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14:32:11 <splittist> flip214: partially because there is no decent vi emulation for Word - or, at least, the vi emulation is worse than the emacs emulation - and I spend too much time in Word to be comfortable switching back and forth between editing modes.
14:32:22 <splittist> s/modes/paradigms/
14:32:27 <chr> Other than that infamous dude who kills copyright infringement threads on Hacker News, are there other notabilities that hack lisp in vi*?
14:32:43 <Xach> chr: Rob Warnock
14:32:45 <flip214> splittist: did you speak of m....s... word just now? oh, your poor, poor soul
14:32:51 *maxm--* hacks lisp in vi
14:32:55 <Xach> maxm
14:32:57 <maxm--> my paredit-magic.el is insane
14:33:02 *flip214* uses vim + slimv
14:33:07 <hefner> I think lpolzer is vim guy
14:33:13 <splittist> flip214: yes, yes I did </sad puppy-dog look>
14:33:41 <maxm--> I posted screenshots before, complete structural editing with all the vi commands keeping the parenthesis balanced.. Ie you can "o" on the (let ...) statement and it opens a new variable with point in the right place
14:35:02 <maxm--> backspace into previously closed (progn) like forms, backs over the parentisis and gets newline in the right place.. 3 dd in the middle of the complicated cond, does dwim thing
14:35:02 <maxm--> but as always, my most useful hacks are the most unorganized/horribly spagetti like
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14:38:45 <flip214> splittist: using LaTeX (or something else - some markup?) and converting to something compatible via libreoffice is not an option, I gather?
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14:40:32 <flip214> splittist: I found some requests for vim keybindings in libreoffice ... but they don't seem to be done
14:41:21 <splittist> flip214: thanks for the thought, but, no. The main problem is not generating the documents (I already use lisp to assist with that) but editing documents with and supplied by others. Libreoffice is not an answer, either.
14:41:34 <qelsi> maxm--: happens often. I find because I need the solution "right now" my most useful stuff or at least the one I use often is a pile of duct-taped hacks.
14:42:10 <splittist> Now, if I understood cxml[-stp] properly...
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14:44:17 <arnsholt> flip214: FWIW, converting TeX code to something else is not really something you want to do (at least if you value your sanity)
14:44:37 <arnsholt> TeX is quite a bit more clever than most people realize (also, Turing-complete)
14:45:38 <flip214> arnsholt: can't be much worse than ms office => html ....
14:45:55 <flip214> and the C++ template processor is turing-complete, too (or so I've heard)
14:46:12 <flip214> even the game of life, IIRC
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14:47:21 <billitch> flip214: looks like you would enjoy "Rule 110"
14:47:37 <flip214> billitch: you don't talk about rule 110
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14:47:40 <billitch> haha
14:47:56 <billitch> lisp is so bloat, Rule 110 rules
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14:48:59 <billitch> and its the only one that is also church complete
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14:50:18 <arnsholt> flip214: Depends on what you mean by worse, but a simile (possibly even a good one) would be converting something like Lisp, or Perl, or what-have-you into something very different (say, C or bash)
14:51:48 <billitch> i remember marc battyani had a project to implement a tex equivalent in common lisp
14:52:04 <billitch> hence the useful cl-pdf
14:52:09 <Xach> cl-typesetting is that project
14:52:24 <billitch> yes
14:52:29 <pjb> flip214: ever heard of the "turing trap"?
14:52:33 <arnsholt> Especially since TeX doesn't work like most people think. It's a string rewriting system, so essentially C preprocessor macros all the way down
14:52:53 <billitch> pjb: is that the turing tarpit ?
14:52:57 <pjb> Yes.
14:53:00 <flip214> pjb: inability to proof whether a program stops?
14:53:05 <pjb> Failing memory
14:53:09 <billitch> flip214: no
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14:53:14 <arnsholt> (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_rewriting_system for all the gory details)
14:53:35 <pjb> flip214: no, the fact that a turing machine is not expressive.  Ok, C++ template are turing equivvalent, but you wouldn't want to write an Hello World program in that language!
14:53:38 <pjb> I'd rather use brainfuck.
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14:54:09 <arnsholt> First line of http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?TuringTrap : ``Being TuringComplete and being "good" are not necessarily related.''
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14:54:30 <pjb> Or said otherwise, compare booch with any lisp macro.
14:54:33 <flip214> pjb: you might like the book "meta-maths" http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~chaitin/omega.html
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14:55:11 <pjb> Looks interesting indeed.
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14:55:45 <flip214> I've got an older version, in paper
14:55:47 <arnsholt> I've been meaning to finish that book. Picked it up years ago and never got around to reading all of it
14:56:05 <billitch> flip214: wether a program stops is the halting problem
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14:56:57 <flip214> billitch: yes, but I'm not sure how many names/aliases the same problem has ...
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14:58:24 <billitch> in french, probleme de l'arret =)
14:58:32 <arnsholt> An interesting generalisation of the halting problem is Rice's theorem. Essentially: "you can't say anything non-trivial about runtime behaviour of programs without running the program in question"
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14:58:51 <arnsholt> See also: virus scanner, problem of making
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14:58:56 <dlowe> that just pushes the boundary into what's trivial or not
14:58:57 <pjb> Also, encrypted programs.
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14:59:11 <pjb> The interpreter pattern, etc.
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14:59:21 <dlowe> immune systems and viruses
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15:00:02 <billitch> static typing...
15:00:02 <pjb> Hence experimental CS. :-)
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15:02:34 <billitch> oh come on, cant we rationalize every bit of our software ? ayn rand is gonna shrug...
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15:03:31 <pjb> We can use rationalizable subsets.
15:03:38 <pjb> But that doesn't go far.
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15:07:37 <billitch> pjb: yeah and the subsets get numerous, then we get to meta uniformize them and so on
15:08:00 <billitch> as the meta uniformizations get numerous too
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15:08:28 <billitch> fortunately lisp should cope well with this
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15:09:01 <billitch> but maybe the language is not as important as the process and the people it involves
15:09:57 <dlowe> lisp is nice because it doesn't dictate as much process as other languages
15:10:53 <dlowe> so with a bit of discipline, it's easier to make a fit process
15:10:59 <pjb> Bertrand Meyer last blog: Never design a language.  All his reasons are nullified in lisp.
15:11:00 <splittist> we tried rationality. it was either boring, or deadly, or both.
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15:12:27 <billitch> dlowe: disci what ? that's a throbbing gristle song right ?
15:12:27 <dlowe> billitch: it's the thing people associate with bondage
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15:14:09 <billitch> dlowe: haa nice ! what are we waiting for
15:14:42 <dlowe> for discipline to become as fun as bondage
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15:15:30 *billitch* lol'ed
15:16:42 <billitch> though that's nonsense, lispers cant both go through the CL spec and not love discipline
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15:17:11 <dlowe> you haven't seen the awful CL code I have
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15:17:58 <dlowe> I've seen what should have been a recursive function unrolled four times because the author didn't think more than four was necessary and couldn't be bothered to work out the recursive solution
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15:20:01 <billitch> dlowe: maybe we're still missing some of the right tools that would make it enjoyable
15:20:28 <Xach> dlowe: The LOOP of DOOM!
15:21:56 <dlowe> billitch: discipline is never enjoyable
15:22:07 <flip214> dlowe: I've seen a debug function that logged into a file, using a mutex b/c of thread concurrency ... and in case of error a copy of that function was called that simply didn't take the mutex again
15:22:39 <Fade> 'morning
15:22:49 <dlowe> Xach: yeah, it was four nested loops to produce permutations
15:23:19 <billitch> dlowe: i enjoy it when i can imagine the pain of cleaning up the mess afterward, and looking at openbsd some folks really seem to "enjoy" it =)
15:23:34 <billitch> they're really high on C though..
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15:24:04 <Xach> I was thinking of http://common-lisp.net/viewvc/lisppaste/lisppaste2/clhs-lookup.lisp?view=markup line 69
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15:24:24 *Xach* wrote a patch 7 years ago, it was never applied. "Fixes welcome" my foot!
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15:24:53 <billitch> Xach: wow !
15:25:03 <dlowe> Static typing is bondage, and therefore enjoyable :)
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15:26:10 <dlowe> It is fun to dot every i and cross every t and feel like you're accomplishing something because your compiler finally accepts your input
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15:26:58 <billitch> dlowe: that works well when i'm drunk
15:28:19 <billitch> but i think we lack good vocabulary, the common language we agree on is like stuck in very trivial operations
15:29:13 <billitch> quicklisp is nice bonding, we're tied together now
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15:30:03 *billitch* feels that there's a whole webcomic to develop on the bondage and programming parallel
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15:33:51 *Odin-* finds it remarkable how things become _visibly_ imperative.
15:34:47 <Odin-> A subtle influence gently pushing people towards functional programming ... the imperative parts just look ugly. :p
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15:35:59 <billitch> Odin-: visibly ?
15:36:17 <Odin-> Yeah. Like those loops of horror.
15:36:22 <Odin-> It's ... blocky.
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15:36:58 <Odin-> Many many lines on the same level, often immediately after each other.
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15:37:58 <billitch> yeah, though the semantics are not always much clearer just because you adopt functional style
15:38:41 <Odin-> Didn't say that.
15:39:11 <sykopomp> loops and recursion are both awful for general-purpose processing of data structures.
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15:39:38 <billitch> the main problem is agreeing on words, processes, patterns, concepts, otherwise we will all rewrite what everybody wrote already, including meta versions of those loops of doom
15:39:59 <billitch> and enjoy it !
15:40:20 <Odin-> sykopomp: Ultimately, there's not an awful lot of stuff that's good for the general purpose, is there?
15:41:18 <sykopomp> Odin-: (reduce #'+ my-numbers), (mapcar #'foo stuff), (every #'doubles thread)
15:41:59 <sykopomp> In fact, the vast majority of LOOP uses in my code turns out to be there simply because I don't want to use IOTA to pregenerate lists of 'indexes'.
15:42:32 <Odin-> sykopomp: Mmmm ... granted, but for more involved structures these can get hairy as well.
15:43:01 <Odin-> Loops and recursion is usually even worse in those cases, but...
15:43:31 <sykopomp> Odin-: if your structures are that complicated, maybe you should reconsider your data structures.
15:43:31 <Odin-> :)
15:43:47 *Odin-* is an abstract thinker, and didn't have anything concrete in mind.
15:44:07 <billitch> sykopomp: when we had written enough loops calling a function on a list and consing results, we gave it a stupid name mapcar that we all agree on
15:44:22 *sykopomp* likes LOOP, but doesn't really find much use for it in practice.
15:44:35 <billitch> and we seem to be unable to agree on more than processing lists
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15:45:27 <Odin-> Probably because the only difference between structures expressible with lists and anything else is performance.
15:46:17 <billitch> ...well except for all those awesome libraries i use daily
15:46:19 <sykopomp> Odin-: not really. Shared structure is an important consideration.
15:46:32 <sykopomp> for better and for worse
15:49:58 <dlowe> sykopomp: (loop for line = (read-line stream nil) while line do ...)
15:49:58 <dlowe> I've yet to find a more succinct way within CL
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15:50:33 <Odin-> sykopomp: Well, yeah ... but that's not a question of whether the structure is expressible as a list. Deep copy of everything throws shared structure out, and if it's wanted you can make only judicious use of deep copying. Back to a question of performance...
15:51:11 <dlowe> Odin-: C makes the same assertion about arrays :)