00:08:58 ccl-logbot [~ccl-logbo@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 00:08:58 00:08:58 -!- names: ccl-logbot replore az_ginseng pavelludiq oconnore ISF anvandare katesmith jsoft DaDaDosPrompt Bike H4ns hargettp ianmcorvidae cheezus1 sonnym dwim wishbone4 GrayMagiker lanthan attila_lendvai1 akovalenko Dodek peterhil` otwieracz Kron ltriant dmiles_afk dto HG`` marsell surrounder Amyn MeanWeen alkoma killerboy Amadiro benny sabalaba Zulu SegFaultAX xristos` urandom__ antgreen RaptorRarr wormwood cpt_nemo micro drewc Vivitron lonstein X-Scale AntiSpamMeta 00:08:58 -!- names: gffa superflit blackwolf retupmoca easyE` kruhft bobbysmith007 MasseR lnostdal ikki lemoinem grouzen bgs100 ChibaPet McMAGIC--Copy arbscht Yuuhi MoALTz billstclair cmatei ch077179 xharkonnen antoszka sanjoyd hugod TristamWrk gaidal madnificent Phoodus insomniaSalt acelent kpal peterhil samebchase gcentauri setmeaway araujo duomo vilikki kennyd daniel__1 sykopomp seangrov` frhodes ihyoyoung slyrus quackv2 karswell cYmen adeht nuba redline6561 oGMo 00:08:58 -!- names: SpitfireWP zbigniew wivlaro bigjust @fe[nl]ix froggey scode jsnell Pepe_ clop2 eli C-Keen tychoish pok_ kloeri freiksenet whoops limetree egn rabite Patzy Quetzalcoatl_ Tristam njan Xach sbryant eno Axioplase foom jrockway CallToPower BrianRice elliottcable jeekl loderunner jasom naryl flip214 tritchey nanoc dRbiG wormphlegm tessier mrsolo Tasser daimrod Adrinael daedric Yamazaki-kun reb` schoppenhauer antifuchs pkhuong p_l klutometis mathrick cods aoh 00:08:58 -!- names: herbieB_ devhost MikeSeth spacebat_ tty234_ shachaf kephas xale ve syrinx_ bieber p_l|backup dodecahedron Vutral npoektop mtd pinterface alanpearce rotty mon_key rainyrhy_away mgr pchrist Tordek s0ber y3llow kleppari cataska levi alvis gkeith_lt quasisane scharan phadthai process mogs johs theBlackDragon maxm- quotemstr austinh sausages jlaire kanru Intensity felideon DrForr Nshag joast Euthy coyo CrEddy _3b schme EyesIsServer dcrawford Posterdati rtoym 00:08:58 -!- names: cmm- __main__ macrobat psyllo loke fluffycms gry kjellkt blumbri tali713 stepnem mal sid3k Odin- ecraven ramus Jabberwockey Oddity sshirokov The_third_bug nullman` markskilbeck pjb tomaw ivan4th z0d elliottjohnson guther vpit3833 _krappie_ churib erg mikejs gemelen vsync yroeht foocraft setheus_ felipe yan_ Bucciarati albino Kovensky df_aldur galdor yahooooo larva rsynnott cmbntr_ a7p literal srid anonus abeaumont Mandus StrmSrfr djanatyn df tsuru 00:08:58 -!- names: Salamander Quadrescence Saeren mornfall em dfox Khisanth Jasko2 acieroid |3b| Borbus ``Erik Fade wtetzner Zephyrus paroneayea nicdev_ tempire zakwilson Guest31252 ski_ mindCrime Iceland_jack lusory JuanDaugherty phryk morris morphling Obfuscate bfein tvaalen PissedNumlock rootzlevel Aisling finnrobi frodef hyko tic_ Xof luis boyscared clog guaqua fmu Zhivago ilmari trigen djinni` koollman joshe dsp_ allandee OliverUv_ zvrba j_king ineiros derrida 00:09:46 -!- cheezus1 [~Adium@76-10-168-148.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:09:46 -!- replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:10:35 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:16:09 -!- Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:16:54 -!- pavelludiq [~pavelludi@83.222.166.206] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:19:42 Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.237] has joined #lisp 00:25:28 -!- HG`` [~HG@p579F760A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: HG``] 00:28:19 -!- wishbone4 [~user@167.216.131.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:32:01 -!- Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.237] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:38:30 frozencemetery [~frozencem@CMU-786527.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #lisp 00:40:05 sammi` [sammi@gateway/shell/devio.us/x-vstajykldpatyzin] has joined #lisp 00:41:20 replore_ [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #lisp 00:41:31 -!- GrayMagiker [~steve@c-174-56-88-247.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 00:41:45 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-177-139.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com] 00:48:07 dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-89-130.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:50:23 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-89-130.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:50:36 acelent` [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:ddfc] has joined #lisp 00:50:40 -!- acelent [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:ddfc] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:50:44 entropax [~entropi@nat/intel/x-fzvcenwpaezcjclg] has joined #lisp 00:51:51 -!- rainyrhy_away is now known as rainyrhy 00:55:07 -!- rainyrhy is now known as rainyrhy_away 00:55:09 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A2E4E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:56:22 freeone3000 [~James@Syncleus/dev/freeone3000] has joined #lisp 00:56:24 sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-162-253.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:00:11 http://paste.lisp.org/display/125074 <- Why does this always output NIL? Shouldn't prompt-for-one return true if the user enters "Y" or "YES"? 01:01:53 -!- xharkonnen [~charles@host86-141-143-76.range86-141.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:01:57 freeone3000: It shouldn't. FORMAT with T for stream argument is expected to return NIL. (Please, move you inner defun outside to make your code readable) 01:03:23 freeone3000: sorry, you said output, not return... why do you expect case-fold-search (which is Emacs lisp) to affect your Common Lisp code? 01:03:38 see also: y-or-n-p 01:04:28 akovalenko: Because apparently the thing I looked up for string comparisons is emacs lisp. Okay.. Still curious as to why (or (equal input "YES") (equal input "Y")) is NIL for an input of "Y". 01:05:06 -!- djanatyn [~user@173-13-139-236-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:05:08 Bike [~Glossina@71-214-98-150.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:05:40 -!- dwim [~dwim@160.Red-79-154-72.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: dwim] 01:06:05 freeone3000: when you're using READ (not read-line or read-char) what user has to type is "YES" in double-quotes, not just bare YES (the latter will be read as a symbol) 01:06:19 And that'd be why. Thanks. 01:08:58 a side note: case-fold-search doesn't affect equal, even in emacs lisp 01:14:26 cheezus [~Adium@76-10-168-148.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 01:14:37 Okay. Removed that. Now I have http://paste.lisp.org/display/125075 , which errors with the attached error trace. I thought with (read-line) I specifically requested for it *not* to be a symbol? 01:16:51 freeone3000: make-cd is obviously broken 01:17:04 or not 01:17:17 It's straight from the example code. How is it broken? 01:17:26 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-162-253.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has left #lisp 01:17:34 -!- X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:17:46 freeone3000: you aren't even able to distinguish get and getf when copying. 01:18:03 sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-162-253.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:18:26 freeone3000: and I *do* remember PCL good enough to see a number of distinctions.. 01:18:44 indentation and ) placement is an obvious bit 01:19:27 getf searches a list for a key, get accesses a property list... 01:19:32 nested defun is so beautiful that I could even ignore indentation 01:19:58 freeone3000: get accesses a property list OF A SYMBOL 01:20:03 Oh. I see the issue. get's first argument must be a symbol, since I'm assinging a value to it, which means I need to make "Title" a symbol somehow. 01:20:13 freeone3000: you don't 01:20:32 Okay, so I need to find a way to generate symbols to give properties. 01:20:34 -!- alkoma [~alkoma@c-98-207-166-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #lisp 01:20:35 freeone3000: read PCL. Pay attention. Note that it uses GETF 01:23:08 michalkichal [~a@212.180.168.188] has joined #lisp 01:23:32 -!- MeanWeen [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-179.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:25:24 And I see plists would solve this problem nicely. 01:26:18 -!- dto1 is now known as dto 01:27:00 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba_@67-194-3-214.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:27:37 borkman [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:28:48 -!- oconnore [~Eric@c-66-31-125-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:29:54 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-27-237.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:30:32 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has joined #lisp 01:31:13 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-27-237.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 01:32:01 katesmith_ [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 01:34:57 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:36:34 -!- katesmith_ is now known as katesmith 01:39:40 MeanWeen [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-179.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:40:07 mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.133] has joined #lisp 01:43:01 -!- easyE` [Vmg4GjqZdT@panix2.panix.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:44:02 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-27-237.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:44:08 that-damn-guy [~sogeking9@5ac58a4e.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 01:45:07 -!- freeone3000 [~James@Syncleus/dev/freeone3000] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:45:53 -!- SegFaultAX [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:45:54 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-27-237.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 01:46:50 Ralith [~ralith@107.26.73.166] has joined #lisp 01:47:38 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:47:42 -!- attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@adsl-89-132-3-203.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:48:35 dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-89-130.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:49:08 -!- marsell [~marsell@120.18.176.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:50:05 pnq [~nick@ACA3542D.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 01:50:32 -!- MeanWeen [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-179.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:51:11 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-89-130.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:51:13 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-27-237.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:52:04 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-27-237.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 01:52:12 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-113-199.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:54:09 hey guys, i started to read land of lisp and PCL last week. I enjoy learning, but it seems like in every page theres a piece of code which i spend hours trying to understand. and its discouraging me. 01:54:40 -!- dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-89-130.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:54:47 -!- az_ginseng [~patryk@141.212.182.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:54:49 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-89-130.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:55:24 rme [~rme@50.43.153.241] has joined #lisp 01:55:28 is lisp's point hard to understand 01:56:40 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 259 seconds] 01:57:41 that-damn-guy: are you learning *programming* (and not only Common Lisp) from PCL? It isn't necessarily wrong, but low speed is something expected in that case.. 01:58:35 that-damn-guy: it would be helpful if you had a fixed nickname here, like sogeking99 01:58:43 -!- cheezus [~Adium@76-10-168-148.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:00:12 like the book just moves on really quick when i basically have no clue what it's doing. like this from land of lisp. '(defun my-length (list) (if list (1+ (my-length (cdr list))) 0))' i get it now, but it took me quite some hours. 02:01:15 then like, two pages later there was the same situation with a different piece of code. 02:01:26 so you think the book is wrong for me? 02:01:46 that-damn-guy: Maybe try SICP? It's a lisp (well, scheme) book that's been used for many intro CS classes. 02:02:21 that-damn-guy: Or http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 02:02:52 gdmorning [~nick@123.129.171.79] has joined #lisp 02:03:03 I've seen "A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" recommended here before (sellout's link) although I haven't read it myself 02:03:49 yeah, i could check it out 02:04:09 you could page through the pdf at any rate 02:04:11 *sykopomp* really liked Gentle Intro 02:05:25 that-damn-guy: Gentle Intro gets you started with more basic skills. PCL and Land of Lisp both assume a certain degree of familiarity with programming. 02:06:50 ok thanks, the index on the pdf seems broken some reason 02:07:28 that-damn-guy: well, if you end up "getting it", you may have the same learning speed as you would with the same material watered-down (spending hours on 100 pages instead of 1 page could improve self-esteem, though). No idea what would be better for you, the only thing I'm sure is that switching books over and over is no good :) 02:09:53 yeah :p 02:11:48 another thing that I have found helpful is using the step macro, you may need to set a high debug optimization to compiling to get the full benefit out of it 02:13:08 Vivitron: Using step is something I have never gotten around to learning, do you know good documentation for its use? 02:13:13 -!- gdmorning [~nick@123.129.171.79] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:14:06 -!- frhodes [~user@168-103-97-250.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:14:22 what is the step macro? 02:14:25 what I use it for, is first I compile the code I don't understand with an debug opimization of 3, and then make an example call within a step form 02:14:36 sonnym1 [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-69.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:14:43 -!- sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-69.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:15:14 if you do this within SLIME, slime with highlight the line of code being executed at each step within your source file, and after each step it waits for you to manually continue to the next step 02:15:28 will highlight* 02:15:33 cesarbp [~cbolano@189.139.180.200] has joined #lisp 02:16:13 jacks- [~redmundia@84.122.73.141.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 02:17:24 Vivitron: I see. I guess that's one more reason to pick up EMACS. I've been using Notepad++ and Kate for my lisping 02:17:32 it's the "step into" restart you need to call 02:17:41 hello. given (with-foreign-object (struct 'somestruct) .. ) how to initialize struct's members to 0? 02:17:55 i might check it out 02:18:26 so (declaim (optimize (debug 3))), compile your definition, then (step (my-length (list 2 1))) 02:18:26 02:18:26 02:19:20 step isn't slime specific, slime just has a nice interface to both step and the lisp debugger 02:19:21 jacks-: like memset(,0,length)? 02:19:40 jacks-: defining a wrapper for memset() is one possible answer 02:20:08 jacks-: writing memset-like loop with (setf (mem-ref ..)) is another one. 02:20:38 anyone know with gentle introduction has a version with a working index? 02:20:49 Vivitron: I know. But that, with a lot of other nice things SLIME does for lisp, makes EMACS worth trying. And my professor would probably be proud 02:21:09 drdo [~drdo@31.88.37.188.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 02:21:18 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-27-237.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:21:22 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-xwmkzlxzzuyznevz] has joined #lisp 02:21:38 akovalenko yes like memset 02:21:53 thought there was something in CFFI, but I guess I can just defcfun memset 02:22:12 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-27-237.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 02:22:17 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483CE1A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:22:21 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-27-237.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 02:22:22 how would (setf (mem-ref ..)) work though? 02:22:37 jacks-: defcfun memset is likely to work, but making it portable is non-trivial 02:22:57 why? what are portability issues? 02:23:25 jacks-: (loop for i below do (setf (mem-ref object :uint8 i) 0)) 02:24:29 ok. and about memset, what are portability issues? 02:24:40 jacks-: the portability issue with memset may be a name of your libc (for a Lisp without flat namespace for foreign symbols) 02:25:05 i see 02:25:17 drdo` [~drdo@2002:2ebd:f326:b:62eb:69ff:fe54:45bc] has joined #lisp 02:25:24 jacks-: of what I know, you really need to specify library name with CFFI on ABCL 02:26:15 here standard C functions just work without importing lib manually 02:26:28 don't have ABCL though 02:26:50 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-27-237.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 02:26:52 jacks-: note: use cffi:foreign-type-size instead of hard-coding your struct size 02:27:05 -!- drdo [~drdo@31.88.37.188.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:27:47 yes I'm using that already 02:27:48 jacks-: well, that's why portability issues *are* issues -- 'cause the fact that it works for you is unportable. 02:30:25 it works on several, I thought CFFI imported libc for it's own use 02:30:29 drdo`` [~drdo@38.243.189.46.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 02:31:03 -!- drdo` [~drdo@2002:2ebd:f326:b:62eb:69ff:fe54:45bc] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:32:26 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-27-237.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:33:34 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-27-237.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 02:33:49 -!- entropax [~entropi@nat/intel/x-fzvcenwpaezcjclg] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:34:40 -!- Ralith [~ralith@107.26.73.166] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:37:57 psilord2 [~psilord@76.201.144.59] has joined #lisp 02:38:03 -!- psilord2 [~psilord@76.201.144.59] has left #lisp 02:38:47 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 02:48:02 -!- drdo`` [~drdo@38.243.189.46.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:50:14 sabalaba [~sabalaba_@c-98-250-107-145.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:56:01 dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:58:39 I really like cl-interpol. would it be possible to replace lisp strings with it?so that I can do"..." instead of #?"..." 02:59:01 I would have to replace default reader, or? 03:00:19 -!- RaptorRarr [~Olathe@unaffiliated/olathe] has left #lisp 03:00:48 jacks-: on the contrary: incompatible overridden meaning of #\" is something that no one should want in the default reader. 03:01:10 is it possible though? 03:01:17 yes 03:01:23 great. how? 03:01:53 can it be done portably 03:02:47 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-27-237.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:03:03 Is two less characters worth the problems? 03:03:11 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@c-67-180-54-112.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:03:14 clhs set-macro-character 03:03:23 http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_set_ma.htm 03:03:23 what problems? 03:03:27 jacks-: ^ 03:03:32 thanks :) 03:03:43 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-27-237.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 03:05:09 "\r\n\t" is very convinient. and string literals look nicer without the #?. I'm amazed you can change the behavior of string literals 03:07:02 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-hoojupnxydzfgkku] has joined #lisp 03:07:02 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-hoojupnxydzfgkku] has quit [Changing host] 03:07:02 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 03:07:49 isn't that what the idea lisp is all about? everyone creating their own perfect language :) 03:09:02 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.133] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:09:52 rtoym [~chatzilla@c-67-180-54-112.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:09:58 it's all fun and games until someone does (declaim (optimize (safety 0))) in their library and neglects to tell anyone about it. 03:12:16 what could happen then? if I changed default reader for string literals 03:13:54 -!- that-damn-guy [~sogeking9@5ac58a4e.bb.sky.com] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 03:14:39 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-27-237.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:14:40 I probably won't do it, just got overly excited how that you can change something as fundamental as a literal 03:14:41 jacks-: "everyone creating their own perfect language" is between "so 1970s" and "so #scheme". 03:14:52 haha 03:15:13 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-27-237.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 03:16:16 paul0 [~paul0@189.26.131.120.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 03:16:27 as of the problems, they will be all ours, when you come back with "how to use my patched readtable locally for my files", with "somehow default readtable got screwed", with "please help with that code, but note that it has custom string literals"... 03:16:31 scode_ [~scode@hyperion.scode.org] has joined #lisp 03:18:13 -!- scode [~scode@hyperion.scode.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:19:11 -!- Borbus [borbus@85.17.58.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:19:46 interesting. but what about safety 0, can that screw this somehow? implementation still has to abid to standard even with that declaim, no? 03:19:55 is it conforming to change reader for string literals? 03:20:35 jacks-: it is conforming (as well as creating a readtable that accepts XML) 03:20:47 MeanWeen [~KAPITAL@cpe-174-099-078-179.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:20:48 Borbus [borbus@85.17.58.106] has joined #lisp 03:21:38 we could sell it as improved, programmable xaml 03:22:01 jacks-: the only thing about (safety 0) [in other people's code that you will load with customized readtable by accident] is that you could get a real crash instead of being thrown into the debugger 03:23:44 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-27-237.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:24:26 . 03:24:34 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-27-237.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 03:24:34 is that just in theory or it actually happens? 03:24:49 Bike: dot context error 03:24:53 :/ 03:25:01 akovalenko: Dang, you beat me to it 03:25:50 Isn't xaml dead yet? 03:25:58 jacks-: as of safety 0 coupled with some unpredictable error, it's normally doesn't get to a real segmentation fault, but a stream of memory corruption warnings is what I saw. 03:25:58 I thought json was the next best thing. 03:26:39 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:27:01 jacks-: as of messed up literal syntax that causes unpredictable errors, it's purely theoretical (well, most of the time). Guess why? 03:28:21 -!- seangrov` [~user@114.205.211.236] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:29:10 why? 03:29:37 oconnore [~Eric@c-66-31-125-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:31:28 (prog0 (values 1 2 3) (foo)) does not return values but 1. do I have to write my own? 03:31:49 prog1 even 03:31:49 jacks-: because we don't override standard literal syntax intentionally here, building an "almost compatible" readtables. 03:31:52 kennyd: multiple-value-prog1 03:32:15 thanks 03:39:35 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 03:42:35 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-214-98-150.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:43:59 Bike1 [~Glossina@71-214-98-150.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:46:25 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA3542D.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:46:53 cfy [~cfy@122.228.135.216] has joined #lisp 03:46:53 -!- cfy [~cfy@122.228.135.216] has quit [Changing host] 03:46:53 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 03:51:10 daniel__ [~daniel@p5B326461.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:51:14 frhodes [~user@168-103-97-250.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:52:47 -!- daniel__1 [~daniel@p5B32622D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:57:41 lars_ [~lars@46.188.184.231] has joined #lisp 03:59:05 -!- lars_ [~lars@46.188.184.231] has left #lisp 04:00:25 pmau5 [~patryk@c-68-40-60-13.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:01:17 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.66.137] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:02:22 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.87.120] has joined #lisp 04:02:23 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba_@c-98-250-107-145.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:02:46 how do i destructively append to a list? 04:03:36 alexandria:appendf 04:04:19 pmau5: NCONC (you'll need its return value instead of relying on old list being modified in place) 04:04:27 or (setf (cdr (last list)) another-list) 04:04:44 *sykopomp* feels dirty just writing that code. 04:05:29 akovalenko: thanks 04:06:24 sykopomp: i'm mostly work in java, c/c++ and this is someting that i'm struggling with -- the way of the lisp 04:07:00 so it's more conventional just to append and then copy that into that same list? expensive isn't this? 04:08:33 Expensive is hunting down a bug from when you thought you had a list that was safe to modify and were wrong. 04:09:04 pmau5: NCONC -- a function, use when you want to save memory by reusing cons cells; ALEXANDRIA:APPENDF -- a macro from ALEXANDRIA library (modifier macros, like INCF and DECF, are pretty popular), but it *does* copy the old list. sykopomp's (setf..) is like a hand-coded version of NCONC.. 04:09:11 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:10:08 -!- ChibaPet [~mason@c-68-58-147-105.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:10:10 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 04:10:18 pmau5: the (setf ...) variant above will fail when an initial list is empty 04:10:47 *quotemstr* wonders whether (setf (last ...) ...) has any meaning. 04:10:55 quotemstr: it has 04:11:10 quotemstr: no, sorry, it has none 04:11:19 *sykopomp* fails :( 04:11:47 Too bad the functions to do this don't exist: 04:12:00 (setf (cdr (lastcdr list)) (list value)) 04:12:05 Actually 04:12:09 (push (cdr (lastchr list)) value) 04:12:19 lastcdr, rather. 04:12:30 -!- jacks- [~redmundia@84.122.73.141.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: Chateando desde http://webchat.redmundial.org (Ping timeout)] 04:12:33 quotemstr: (push value (cdr (last list))) will work 04:12:58 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@78-0-241-232.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:12:59 Ah, I forgot that last actually returns a cons. 04:13:04 quotemstr: (cdr (last ...)) *is* a place (by the virtue of CDR), even though LAST isn't 04:13:48 kennyd_ [~kennyd@78-1-191-0.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 04:20:11 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.153.241] has quit [Quit: rme] 04:23:52 -!- Bike1 [~Glossina@71-214-98-150.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 04:25:11 kenr [~kenr@46.188.184.231] has joined #lisp 04:26:07 cyrillos_ [~cyrill@188.134.62.2] has joined #lisp 04:26:14 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:28:11 -!- paul0 [~paul0@189.26.131.120.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Quit: paul0] 04:28:57 hi. is there I have noticed that some libraries have package aliases, usually shorter so that the code is more concise. do they do it manually or is there a better way? 04:29:29 sorry for typing mistakes I'm tired 04:29:30 Manually. 04:30:27 gko [~gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:54 ok guessed so thanks 04:32:27 cheezus [~Adium@76-10-168-148.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 04:34:39 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:37:58 asdfasdf123 [~asdflkjds@67.169.7.215] has joined #lisp 04:39:09 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-18-23-195.as13285.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:39:39 -!- asdfasdf123 [~asdflkjds@67.169.7.215] has quit [Client Quit] 04:43:17 evening 04:47:22 -!- anvandare [~anvandare@78-22-145-89.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:50:02 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 04:52:56 -!- Kron [~Kron@69.166.25.6] has quit [Quit: Kron awayyy!] 04:53:20 -!- gko [~gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:54:57 gensym [~user@dslb-088-071-149-049.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 04:58:00 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-27-237.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:58:07 Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has joined #lisp 04:59:11 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-27-237.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 05:02:27 -!- Zulu [~Zulu@c-174-58-204-235.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ~ Trillian Astra - www.trillian.im ~] 05:06:08 -!- antgreen [~user@bas3-toronto06-2925097237.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:10:20 -!- kenr [~kenr@46.188.184.231] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 05:11:03 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66-87-27-237.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:13:33 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-89-130.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:23:25 -!- gensym [~user@dslb-088-071-149-049.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:23:50 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-xwmkzlxzzuyznevz] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:28:04 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 05:29:30 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:32:20 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:32:25 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@c-67-180-54-112.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:35:02 -!- Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:36:42 -!- wormwood [~wormwood@pdpc/supporter/student/wormwood] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:39:18 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:39:33 -!- anonus [~anonymous@88.80.28.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:42:16 drdo`` [~drdo@147.143.37.188.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 05:43:02 Oladon [~Oladon@c-71-237-71-104.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:43:06 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 05:43:09 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-cqfttgayimsgfomf] has joined #lisp 05:45:05 Hi all... I'm trying to get CLAIM 1.2 working on SBCL 1.0.51 running on Linux, but for some reason I can't seem to fathom, even after I load the .lisp file it's not recognizing the functions. I'm used to Scheme, so please pardon me if this is the silly question I expect it is. Didn't find anything from Googling, though. 05:45:42 Any ideas? 05:49:48 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:50:15 Oladon: get more familiar with ASDF, to the point where you know how to use claim.asd system definition. 05:50:34 I'm not using asdf 05:50:45 wormwood [~wormwood@pdpc/supporter/student/wormwood] has joined #lisp 05:51:18 I used QuickLisp to get the package, after asdf failed to install it repeatedly because it couldn't figure out various dependency issues 05:51:57 Oladon: CLAIM.ASD is an asdf system definition file. You can imitate what ASDF does by hand (compile and load LISP sources in the right order), but that would be even more silly. 05:53:06 akovalenko: My understanding from extensive Googling was that QuickLisp was a better option. 05:53:44 Oladon: since CLAIM is not a part of QuickLisp repository, QuickLisp just delegates your request to load CLAIM to ASDF. 05:54:07 Perhaps so, but QuickLisp succeeded in installing it where ASDF failed. 05:54:27 Regardless of that, the package is installed just fine. I can require it with no issues. The issue occurs when I attempt to load the example .lisp file and use it 05:55:35 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 05:56:07 well, if you describe the "issue" (like post an error message or something) someone who is interested will be able to help you. 05:56:59 As I said, it's not recognizing the functions. I.e. the error is that the function doesn't exist. 05:57:34 Oladon: error message like that normally mentions function's NAME. 05:58:12 Any function from that file that I try to call. start-gossip-bot is one. 05:58:44 Oladon: then, the file loads successfully, but you can't call its functions after its loaded? 05:59:11 akovalenko: correct. 05:59:23 Oladon: use fully-qualified symbols, (gossip-bot:start-gossip-bot .. ..) 05:59:26 As I said, I'm guessing it's just something different about SBCL that I'm missing coming from a Scheme background 05:59:43 akovalenko: Is there a way to avoid that? 05:59:45 Oladon: you're missing PACKAGES 06:00:28 Oladon: yes, there is. Read the standard (chapter 11) 06:00:56 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-113-199.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 06:00:58 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-164-216.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:01:19 Excellent, I'll do that. I had failed to find that in my searching. Thanks. 06:03:16 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:06:06 -!- michalkichal [~a@212.180.168.188] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:09:53 Oladon: Practical Common Lisp's description of packages (of a more pedagogical nature) may be even better starting point. 06:12:00 Thanks, akovalenko, I'll look that one up as well. 06:14:36 gko [~gko@110-26-232-87.adsl.fetnet.net] has joined #lisp 06:21:21 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 06:22:39 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:25:13 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@110-174-168-43.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 06:25:35 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 06:28:40 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has joined #lisp 06:29:47 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:34:56 I'd like to make this ((SOMETHING SQUARED) (* (SOMETHING) (SOMETHING))) transform into this ((?x* SQUARED) (* ?x ?x)). I can get the firs SOMETHING with sublis but changing a (SOMETHING) to ?x is tricky with sublis. I tried it with a few different functions instead of test, but can't seem to figure it out. Is there a straightforward way of solving this? 06:36:01 -!- xristos` [~x@2001:4968:200:0:5652:ff:fe55:7b51] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:36:04 -!- DaDaDosPrompt [~DaDaDosPr@184.99.29.100] has quit [Quit: DaDaDosPrompt] 06:37:33 pmau5: what about (sublis '(((something) . ?x*)) :test 'equal) 06:41:36 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.68.211] has joined #lisp 06:42:26 killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 06:42:27 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:42:53 good morning 06:45:11 xristos [~x@2001:4968:200:0:5652:ff:fe55:7b51] has joined #lisp 06:45:19 -!- xristos is now known as Guest28138 06:50:01 huangjs [~huangjs@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 06:51:04 HG` [~HG@p579F760A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:53:12 nostoi [~nostoi@73.Red-79-152-62.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 06:56:13 -!- pmau5 [~patryk@c-68-40-60-13.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:58:37 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 06:58:55 mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-pbkrlyepjaehnutm] has joined #lisp 07:00:27 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 07:00:37 lispnewbie [~lispnewbi@pool-71-191-58-221.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:00:41 hi 07:00:56 can anyone help me with a little command?? 07:01:18 hello.... 07:01:25 anyone there over here??? 07:01:27 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 07:01:29 yep 07:01:35 -!- tempire [~tempire@pool-72-91-241-135.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 07:01:41 hey akovalenko 07:02:05 can you help me with a little doubt of mine at lisp 07:02:16 either describe your problem or not. what's the use of those "broadcast ping" you're posting? 07:02:40 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:03:30 well i want to design a macro such that it can edit the arguments it takes...but when i'm using defmacro the values are edited only temporarily that too only within the scope of the macro 07:03:42 so how do i make the change permanent. 07:05:16 macros work by returning a transformed body. they don't normally affect anything "outside" the form where they are used 07:06:03 perhaps the actual thing you want to do (what's it?) can be done in other way. 07:06:19 is it?? 07:06:26 so how can i do it 07:07:58 !! 07:08:08 what kind of "change" do you want? that is, what is the purpose of it all? (maybe sharing some code would give me a clue -- use paste.lisp.org) 07:08:20 I want a macrolet whose scope behavior is similar to that of flet ... 07:08:54 hmm... doesn't make sense 07:09:47 http://paste.lisp.org/+2OIC 07:09:55 here's the paste of my prog 07:10:01 -!- cheezus [~Adium@76-10-168-148.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:10:34 huangjs: don't confuse macros that expand into another macro call vs. macros that *use* another macros in the expansion code. Macrolet is like FLET with respect to the latter, but not the former. 07:10:41 lispnewbie: first of all, there's "with-open-file" ... that's much better style. 07:11:01 akovalenko: yeah, that's why i said 'it doesn't make sense' 07:11:42 well guys i'm still a newbie here so can you try explaining me with some exmple...perhaps a modified version of my paste 07:12:26 lispnewbie: well, I hoped to see one or two meaningful names :( 07:13:09 akovalenko any problem with my code?? 07:13:13 so it's almost hopeless without a sensible problem description 07:13:22 ohhh i'm sorry 07:13:27 lemme fill it up 07:13:35 insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-85-219.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:13:35 -!- insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-85-219.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Changing host] 07:13:35 insomnia1alt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has joined #lisp 07:14:15 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 07:14:20 killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 07:15:02 lispnewbie: as of the problems -- none of your variables are defined anywhere, for starters. Quite a problem 07:15:54 hey akovalenko http://paste.lisp.org/+2OIC/1 07:15:57 try this 07:16:33 lispnewbie: got it 07:16:35 Blkt [~user@89-96-199-46.ip13.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 07:16:37 I know i'm not that good with the basics...coz i'm concentrating onwards completing hw 07:16:37 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@unaffiliated/iammilan] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:16:37 -!- insomnia1alt is now known as insomniaSalt 07:17:00 lispnewbie: does your hw require to use macros? 07:17:06 lispnewbie: (defmacro printstat (unit value) (list 'setf unit value)) 07:17:58 lispnewbie: we'd normally use an equivalent: (defmacro printstat (unit value) `(setf ,unit ,value)) -- with backquote and comma 07:19:35 lispnewbie: your macro calls setf at compile-time, and returns NIL - so y is not modified in the funct() 07:19:46 the point is, the code you put into macro body should return a form -- new code that would replace the call to your macro. 07:19:56 what editor/environment are you using? try macroexpand or macroexpand-1 07:19:58 flip214: macroexpansion time, not compile time 07:20:11 jdz: ok, thanks ... definitly not runtime 07:20:20 akovalenko so dude how do i do it 07:20:41 and whts with the backquote and comma 07:21:27 jdz: btw, http://arclanguage.org/item?id=7133 «The problem is that macro expansion happens at "compile" time...» 07:21:35 lispnewbie: do you see the *code* in my answers? that's how you do that. (really, two-argument-only-setf-with-perverse-order is a useless macro, though) 07:21:41 lispnewbie: please read http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/macros-defining-your-own.html 07:24:02 flip214: 1) macroexpansion is done before compilation, 2) compilation might not even be involved, 3) your link is relevant to common lisp how? 07:25:18 jdz: I just wanted to remark that it seems to be common to munch macroexpansion into compile time (informally) ... of course they're not the same 07:25:28 Well, remember that the concept of compilation in CL is not necessarily what you're thinking of. 07:25:56 lispnewbie: you don't want macros at all 07:26:53 h4ns i didn't get u exactly! 07:27:49 akovalenko when i tried your code i got this Error: Undefined function (SETF QUOTE) called with arguments (NIL 1). 07:27:55 flip214: the problem is that lispnewbie does not have a clue what macros are, how they work and what they are used for. so the first thing to do would be to explain that macros are used to transform code [only]! 07:27:57 lispnewbie: it is "you", not "u" in this channel. i think you should write through some basic tutorial and not try things that are beyond you at this point. 07:28:09 s/write/work/ 07:28:14 lispnewbie: (unit value) vs. (value unit) -- swap it in my examples 07:28:22 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-141-217.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:28:59 lispnewbie: i.e. in argument list (where mine is distinct from yours) 07:29:19 (defmacro printstat (value unit) (list 'setf unit value)) 07:29:47 akovalenko ohhh...great i got the result 07:30:21 so does that comma mean something like the value stored at the address of the variable is edited? 07:30:27 lispnewbie: "you don't want macros" is the default here, so asking H4ns to elaborate is not what you want either. Now tell us, why PRINTSTAT is better than SETF 07:31:06 newcup [newcup@peruna.fi] has joined #lisp 07:32:02 akovalenko well actually i wanted to use macros in order to make my assignment work thereby i'm working on smaller examples of macros to understand them 07:32:03 you edit with an editor (macros have nothing to do with it). when macro is expanded, there are no "variables" in its arguments and result, only raw *code*. 07:33:26 lispnewbie: look, we have (setf unit 1) -- it works. Now we have (printstat 1 unit) -- it works the same way (quoting the 1 is unnecessary, btw). Now, what we gain from PRINTSTAT, compared to SETF? 07:34:36 lispnewbie: comma means "unquote" -- it is like the opposite of quote. 07:34:56 Zhivago: ...of backquote 07:35:14 akovalenko i have an assignment where i need to supply background knowledge to values in an s-expression something like when the system encounters the work "coin" then it must be replaced by "(silverdollar penny)" 07:36:00 so i wanted to use macros to verify those values and according to case statements work on them 07:36:58 look up define-symbol-macro, then (to have your "coin" replaced at compile time everywhere) or symbol-macrolet (to have your coin replaced within some code block). 07:37:49 ohhh...nice 07:38:28 but it's way better to become familiar with variables (enough to define them correctly) and functions, before you *write* macros (using macros that are already there is good) 07:38:48 hmmm i will check it out then 07:39:48 thnkx to Akovalenko H4ns and Flip214 07:40:04 I will get to you guys if have any problems 07:41:14 ccorn [~ccorn@84-53-64-50.adsl.unet.nl] has joined #lisp 07:41:21 5 minutes later... 07:46:39 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.22.68] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:49:28 hey akovalenko 07:49:30 *akovalenko* is frightened with modern ways of newbieness... are we prepared to explain DEFINE-METHOD-COMBINATION before DEFVAR, too? 07:49:36 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@73.Red-79-152-62.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 07:49:40 jdz: too pessimistic, it's been 9 07:49:56 lispnewbie: the problem or gtfo (pings are really annoying, dude). 07:50:07 problem 07:50:38 I wanted to replace the values in an s-expression 07:51:12 like when i encounter a value like "gun" it should be replaced by "beretta glock" 07:51:28 and I don't get the proper idea of doing it 07:51:48 the value gun is stored in the s-expression 07:51:55 and btw sorry for the pings 07:52:48 lispnewbie: maybe it should _evaluate to_ "beretta glock" instead? that much you can get without it being _replaced_ (it's called `binding', a thing that you introduce with LET). 07:53:38 even values in s-expression too?? 07:54:29 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:54:31 the value "gun" is stored inside a list 07:54:33 lispnewbie: how about the function SUBST? 07:54:42 lispnewbie: and forget the whole macro business? 07:54:56 i want it to be replaced automatically whenever i use the list 07:55:21 lispnewbie: nothing in software world happens automatically. 07:55:57 :P yes i guess 07:56:16 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:56:23 hi 07:56:25 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.115.118] has joined #lisp 07:56:49 flip214: sys x 07:57:01 flip214: where x is at your will 07:58:32 -!- lispnewbie [~lispnewbi@pool-71-191-58-221.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: IRC webchat at http://irc2go.com/] 07:58:56 lispnewbie: all stuff in s-expressions is really meant to evaluate something. Like, produce a result. Normally, there are some symbols in s-expressions, and some of those symbols are referenced as variables. Now, you can take some *code* (s-expressions) and replace a symbol UNIT with 2 (SUBST will do it everywhere). But it's a really strange thing to do if you just want UNIT to *evaluate* to 2 (local binding with LET is sufficient 07:58:57 then). 07:59:01 -!- Guest28138 [~x@2001:4968:200:0:5652:ff:fe55:7b51] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:01:59 cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.22.68] has joined #lisp 08:02:05 Posterdati: for i from 256 to 512: poke i,0: next i 08:02:19 -!- oconnore [~Eric@c-66-31-125-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:03:11 xristos [~x@2001:4968:200:0:5652:ff:fe55:7b51] has joined #lisp 08:03:18 -!- xristos is now known as Guest6158 08:04:35 anybody using rutils? there're sooo many utility libraries around... 08:05:26 -!- jasom [~aidenn@ip98-182-25-247.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:05:31 That's because the only people who ever use any particular util library are the authors. ;) 08:06:05 pinterface: ALEXANDRIA is an exception, though 08:06:11 pinterface: yeah, i know, guess the only widely used one is alexandria 08:06:41 Yes. Except for Alexandria. 08:06:45 rutils seems to have a good arrangement of packages and names 08:06:49 so perhaps there should be some more things pushed into alexandria, to move away from all the other ones? 08:07:24 flip214: alexandria has some documented design goals (with many things being emphatically not in scope) 08:07:42 aerique [310225@xs8.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:07:55 flip214: it's good to clean a room 08:08:33 ..basically, no new abstraction layers over things we already have in CL, and no competition for specialized libraries out there. 08:09:04 i think we need a better structure for utilities and maybe extend to algorithms and data structures. 08:09:30 gensym [~user@dslb-088-071-149-049.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 08:10:21 Posterdati: that cleaned your stack right out 08:10:37 -!- frozencemetery [~frozencem@CMU-786527.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:11:14 huangjs: maybe we should learn something from alexandria's success instead (that it managed to fly with no fine-grained modularization, etc) 08:11:27 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-164-216.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:12:39 jasom [~aidenn@ip98-182-25-247.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 08:14:07 akovalenko: you can find every utility in package rutils.*, but modularization is good, it shorten the time of learning 08:18:38 well, reading the rutils description I see the "one needed dependency" being the one on quicklisp -- everything else is just a quickload away .... 08:18:48 how can it shorted the time of learning at all? seems likely to increase it instead (I would have to remember the package for each utility; as long as I can't even load them separately, I fail to see how it's at all useful) 08:19:05 but yes, rutils sounds nice 08:20:38 jpl-util are not "unreasonable" as well (contrary to what rutils' full package name suggests) 08:21:12 good morning everyone 08:21:41 tempire [~tempire@pool-72-91-241-135.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:22:10 oiiii [~oiiii@82.71.241.25] has joined #lisp 08:23:53 -!- gensym [~user@dslb-088-071-149-049.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:24:31 -!- Guest6158 [~x@2001:4968:200:0:5652:ff:fe55:7b51] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:26:39 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-166-111.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 08:30:55 good morning Blkt 08:31:07 morning 08:32:11 xristos [~x@2001:4968:200:0:5652:ff:fe55:7b51] has joined #lisp 08:32:33 -!- xristos is now known as Guest18431 08:35:09 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-gvilpinrdutctfmt] has joined #lisp 08:37:46 easyE` [wKjtUDU7H8@panix2.panix.com] has joined #lisp 08:40:37 akovalenko, are there some reasonable smoothing libs? So you can be sure your code behaves the same on clisp and sbcl? 08:41:22 Tasser: "smoothing"? there are portability layers -- for threads, for sockets, etc.. 08:42:21 akovalenko, smoothing out the differences 08:43:55 there are (1) differences in what standard defines (and not says it's implementation-dependent) -- then you have a bug, either in SBCL or in CLISP (or both :)... 08:45:07 ...(2) differences in things implementation-dependent (either defined by the standard to be this way, or being extra-standard to begin with, like threads and sockets) 08:45:18 Tasser: it depends of what you're doing exactly. the libraries tend to focus on a single aspect. closer-mop is one example, bordeaux-threads is another. 08:45:39 for (1), we rely on bug reports and getting them fixed. For (2), you need some specific portability layer that depends on what you want to do. 08:46:23 Tasser: the fact that there is a standard makes things easier, as you know which differences to expect for implementations which abide the specification 08:46:32 -!- Guest18431 [~x@2001:4968:200:0:5652:ff:fe55:7b51] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:47:14 but what if I'm too lazy to read the standard? 08:47:21 hmm 08:47:57 -!- cesarbp [~cbolano@189.139.180.200] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:49:11 xristos_ [~x@2001:4968:200:0:5652:ff:fe55:7b51] has joined #lisp 08:50:44 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 08:52:07 Tasser: it's even beyond "maybe programming is not for you" (to the point of "maybe life is not for everyone") 08:52:07 08:52:57 i want a library that smoothes out differences between implementations because i'm too lazy to read the standard (?) 08:53:20 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 08:53:23 flip214: I'm waiting my stack got dry 08:53:23 Tasser: what if you're too lazy to code? 08:53:39 spacefrogg [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has joined #lisp 08:54:39 madnificent: use the lazy guild? 08:54:41 Tasser: you can write code, do what you expect things to do, and check the standard for oddities. if/when you try to run an a different implementation, you may have to debug some things here or there... that's an (ugly) option 08:54:51 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 08:54:59 fngraph [~fngraph@24-205-80-209.dhcp.psdn.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 08:55:00 -!- fngraph [~fngraph@24-205-80-209.dhcp.psdn.ca.charter.com] has left #lisp 08:55:08 Posterdati: right, you might want to check out sicl as well 08:55:26 for your microprocessor lisp 08:55:35 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:55:43 madnificent: I don't need a scheme compiler :) 08:57:33 *madnificent* doesn't understand the response, but is totally prepared to accept that 08:58:03 madnificent: is sicl a book about scheme? 09:01:04 http://lmddgtfy.com/?q=sicl seems smart enough to give you a good top link 09:01:04 manuel__ [~manuel_@pD9FDE342.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:01:55 Posterdati: it's one of beach's projects 09:02:06 also: where is beach? i haven't seen him around 09:03:11 silicone chloride? 09:03:31 madnificent: enjoying life? 09:03:46 madnificent: :( 09:05:45 stassats: seriously, it has a github box on top :( 09:06:04 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 09:06:26 stassats: though we could probably make a combustion engine running on sicl :) 09:06:51 it has a book "Electron Impact Ionization of SiCl3, SiCl2, and SiCl" on top 09:07:05 stassats: yes, a nice book 09:09:07 what the? no, i get this: https://github.com/hoelzl/sicl 09:09:29 and duckduckgo doesn't have a bubble, so it must be the country settings or so 09:10:23 madnificent: ok you wrote that book! 09:11:39 but more importantly, check out sicl if you want to build your lisp, it might save you time 09:11:57 madnificent: tx, but I need a compiler 09:12:31 that's an orthagonal problem, i believe. the compiler compiles the code which is available in sicl and as such, you don't have to implement the complete spec. 09:12:51 madnificent: yes, I need a small subset 09:13:22 madnificent: but all I found was a Lisp to c++ compiler and a scheme compiler (Norvig) 09:13:51 have you seen SBCL? It's a decent compiler 09:14:19 stassats: I'm working with it, but I need something that creates avr code :) 09:14:59 it can create any code you like 09:15:10 stassats: how? 09:16:13 -!- Amyn [~abennama@cac94-2-87-91-21-215.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:17:12 xharkonnen [~charles@host86-141-143-76.range86-141.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 09:17:28 stassats: it is an x86 compiler, isn't it? 09:17:35 stassats: don't you think that that be a tad too complex? wouldn't porting through ECL have a fair chance of being simpler? 09:17:35 no 09:17:46 ZabaQ [~john.conn@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 09:17:53 Posterdati: it compiles to more than that, but it can compile machine code directly. (right, stassats?) 09:18:42 madnificent: ok, I used the (disassemble ...) special form 09:19:00 -!- xharkonnen [~charles@host86-141-143-76.range86-141.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Client Quit] 09:19:15 Posterdati: it's not a special form, it's a function 09:19:16 for someone who can't distinguish "l" and "p" when reading, and has a hard time clicking on links, and sees no difference between a book and a library, porting SBCL to AVR is exactly as easy as rewriting it from scratch 09:19:59 akovalenko: are you referring at yourself? 09:20:56 Posterdati: well, I *have* ported SBCL to new target (though not new CPU), but I wouldn't try to repeat it with AVR 09:21:54 akovalenko: http://sourceforge.net/projects/arduinolisp/forums/forum/1682584 09:23:06 -!- Oladon [~Oladon@c-71-237-71-104.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:23:42 -!- __main__ [~main@adsl-99-173-15-158.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:24:16 is there a way to teach subversion to treat files that contain s-expressions differently (i.e. by using an s-expr diff, not a line-diff)? 09:24:36 -!- easyE` [wKjtUDU7H8@panix2.panix.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 09:25:36 would that be useful? 09:26:06 stassats: there is a chance it would 09:26:13 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:27:31 ecraven: svn will be happy with any diff and diff3-compatible pair of programs, iirc. 09:27:34 akovalenko: reader macros. 09:27:41 akovalenko: ; comments, etc. 09:27:43 pjb: hi 09:27:46 Hi! 09:28:14 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 09:28:22 akovalenko: on the other hand, for an interlisp-like system, perhaps. 09:28:23 stassats: I'll take a look to sbcl 09:28:32 KingNato [~patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 09:28:41 Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has joined #lisp 09:29:07 pjb: sometimes I *do* want to track versions of a totally autogenerated file 09:29:17 -!- KingNato [~patno@fw.polopoly.com] has left #lisp 09:29:41 KingNato [~patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 09:29:42 That said, svn questions can be asked on #svn. I guess there's a mean to do it. 09:30:56 -!- replore_ [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:31:53 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 09:34:24 __main__ [~main@76-220-16-41.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 09:35:43 -!- __main__ [~main@76-220-16-41.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:35:55 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has left #lisp 09:37:47 -!- retupmoca [~andy@173-167-0-86-michigan.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:38:28 _main_ [~main@adsl-99-173-15-158.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 09:38:43 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-cqfttgayimsgfomf] has left #lisp 09:40:14 -!- _main_ [~main@adsl-99-173-15-158.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:40:25 __main__ [~main@76-220-16-41.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 09:40:28 akovalen` [~user@95.73.223.139] has joined #lisp 09:40:43 -!- akovalen` is now known as akovalenko` 09:41:06 gensym [~user@dslb-088-071-149-049.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:41:12 -!- __main__ [~main@76-220-16-41.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:41:29 retupmoca [~andy@173-167-0-86-michigan.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 09:42:25 -!- akovalenko [~user@95.73.105.210] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 09:43:06 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 09:44:24 akovalenko`: do you know of any good s-expression diff? 09:46:14 ecraven: there is a quicklispable library (with "diff" in its name) that works on sequences, at least. That's what I would use to build recursive s-expression diff 09:46:35 -!- akovalenko` is now known as akovalenko 09:46:39 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 09:46:45 i found this: http://www.foldr.org/~michaelw/lisp/diff-sexp.lisp, i'll have a look later. thanks for the hints! 09:48:34 there's COM.INFORMATIMAGO.COMMON-LISP.CESARUM.LIST:TREE-DIFFERENCE 09:51:35 -!- huangjs [~huangjs@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:52:24 __main__ [~main@adsl-99-173-15-158.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 09:53:12 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:54:47 -!- kennyd_ [~kennyd@78-1-191-0.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Quit: bye] 09:57:01 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-81-144.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 09:57:01 -!- xristos_ [~x@2001:4968:200:0:5652:ff:fe55:7b51] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:57:28 what do people here use for lisp source code control? 09:58:09 i personally use git for everything, not only lisp 09:58:19 git 09:58:54 Are any alexandria authors here (now)? 09:58:58 also, git diff has the --word-diff option, which is heplful for lisp code 09:59:58 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 10:01:12 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-169-125.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:01:32 *akovalenko* reported a bug in alexandria:circular-tree-p to alexandria-devel@<..>. hopefully it will be read by someone eventually. 10:01:36 s0ber_ [~s0ber@111-240-169-125.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 10:01:40 -!- s0ber_ is now known as s0ber 10:03:42 xristos [~x@2001:4968:200:0:5652:ff:fe55:7b51] has joined #lisp 10:03:49 -!- xristos is now known as Guest21701 10:06:32 -!- Guest21701 [~x@2001:4968:200:0:5652:ff:fe55:7b51] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:07:37 xan_ [~xan@183.Red-81-32-69.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:08:05 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] 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10:56:19 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 11:02:13 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:02:18 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 11:03:17 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 11:03:35 -!- xristos_ [~x@2001:4968:200:0:5652:ff:fe55:7b51] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:04:53 Ivoz [Ivoz@203-129-26-202.cust.aussiebb.net] has joined #lisp 11:05:07 -!- Ivoz [Ivoz@203-129-26-202.cust.aussiebb.net] has quit [Changing host] 11:05:07 Ivoz [Ivoz@unaffiliated/ivoz] has joined #lisp 11:06:12 xristos_ [~x@2001:4968:200:0:5652:ff:fe55:7b51] has joined #lisp 11:10:34 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has left #lisp 11:12:32 -!- xristos_ [~x@2001:4968:200:0:5652:ff:fe55:7b51] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:12:42 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-141-217.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:12:47 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-166-111.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:12:54 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 11:13:02 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 11:15:12 xristos_ [~x@2001:4968:200:0:5652:ff:fe55:7b51] has joined #lisp 11:16:04 -!- H4ns [43174196@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.23.65.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:17:07 hi 11:17:35 gravichiappa: hi 11:18:49 -!- xan_ [~xan@183.Red-81-32-69.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 11:21:02 -!- xristos_ [~x@2001:4968:200:0:5652:ff:fe55:7b51] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:21:10 -!- Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:22:05 lanthan_afh [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:23:14 paul0 [~paul0@189.26.131.120.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 11:25:12 xristos_ [~x@2001:4968:200:0:5652:ff:fe55:7b51] has joined #lisp 11:27:32 -!- xristos_ [~x@2001:4968:200:0:5652:ff:fe55:7b51] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:28:06 killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 11:29:12 xristos_ [~x@2001:4968:200:0:5652:ff:fe55:7b51] has joined #lisp 11:30:10 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:30:31 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 11:31:30 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has joined #lisp 11:34:28 -!- xristos_ [~x@2001:4968:200:0:5652:ff:fe55:7b51] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:38:42 xristos [~x@2001:4968:200:0:5652:ff:fe55:7b51] has joined #lisp 11:38:44 -!- xristos is now known as Guest33418 11:40:00 Xach: do you have a shiftf tip? 11:41:36 mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.133] has joined #lisp 11:45:18 frozencemetery [~frozencem@CMU-786527.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #lisp 11:46:02 -!- Guest33418 [~x@2001:4968:200:0:5652:ff:fe55:7b51] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:46:16 replore_ [~replore@ntkngw304073.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:47:42 xristos_ [~x@2001:4968:200:0:5652:ff:fe55:7b51] has joined #lisp 11:49:53 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:50:12 stassats: not yet 11:50:42 i know how shiftf works but there isn't a nice, terse use on my mind 11:50:45 i've just found a nice use for it: (defun repl () (princ "> ") (loop (shiftf *** ** * (eval (read))) (format t "~a~&> " *))) 11:50:49 aha 11:50:55 nice 11:52:24 -!- setmeaway [setmeaway3@119.201.52.182] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:54:57 cyrillos__ [~cyrill@188.134.33.194] has joined #lisp 11:56:18 -!- cyrillos_ [~cyrill@188.134.62.2] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:00:53 *stassats* isn't sure what to do with updating tips to add new information, since it won't be picked up by already sinced RSS readers 12:04:58 google reader says there're 118 subscribers to slime-tips and 62 subscribers to lisptips 12:05:00 i win! 12:06:19 -!- rainyrhy_away is now known as rainyrhy 12:08:31 -!- frozencemetery [~frozencem@CMU-786527.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:10:49 oconnore [~Eric@c-66-31-125-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:11:02 -!- xristos_ [~x@2001:4968:200:0:5652:ff:fe55:7b51] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:13:42 xristos_ [~x@2001:4968:200:0:5652:ff:fe55:7b51] has joined #lisp 12:16:38 dlowe_lt [dlowe@nat/google/x-wvdltyfivresrzkp] has joined #lisp 12:17:04 It's a bit worrying when your own code works like magic.. 12:17:08 stassats, that's only (subs|google) not (subs) - and probably (google|subs) is different 12:17:12 in emacs lisp I can approximate (defun f (x) (+ x 1)) with (fset 'f (lambda (x) (+ x 1))) 12:17:38 is there a similar way of setting the function cell of a symbol in CL? 12:17:54 setf symbol-function 12:17:59 setf fdefinition 12:18:21 ah, I was trying (setf (function symbol) ...) 12:18:24 thanks 12:21:00 MoALTz [~no@host-92-18-23-195.as13285.net] has joined #lisp 12:25:32 cheezus [~Adium@76-10-168-148.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 12:28:28 cfa [~cfa@unaffiliated/cfa] has joined #lisp 12:28:44 hi guys 12:28:59 morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.192.25] has joined #lisp 12:29:02 quick question -- why/when would i write (in-package #:cl-user) instead of (in-package :cl-user) ? 12:29:14 hi lisp 12:29:44 cfa: when you think too much about little things 12:29:52 semantically, they're the same 12:29:56 there's no rule of thumb here? 12:30:06 no 12:30:44 okay, cool 12:31:14 cfa: the symbol :cl-user will be interned, #:cl-user won't (as far as i understood it - i am beginner) 12:33:31 -!- xristos_ [~x@2001:4968:200:0:5652:ff:fe55:7b51] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:34:23 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has left #lisp 12:35:34 setmeaway [~setmeaway@119.201.52.182] has joined #lisp 12:36:40 aha, i just found a footnote in pcl 12:37:06 "Some folks, instead of keywords, use uninterned symbols, using the #: syntax... This saves a tiny bit of memory by not interning any symbols in the keyword packagethe symbol can become garbage after DEFPACKAGE (or the code it expands into) is done with it. However, the difference is so slight that it really boils down to a matter of aesthetics" 12:37:26 kpreid [~kpreid@Conors-iPad.wlan.clarkson.edu] has joined #lisp 12:37:43 but you can save disc space! 12:37:50 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:38:11 stassats: by _not_ using the #, right? 12:38:15 hey, can I ask about Read-from-string & :Parser functions, which one is more lightweight in performance ? 12:38:43 xristos [~x@2001:4968:200:0:5652:ff:fe55:7b51] has joined #lisp 12:39:03 -!- xristos is now known as Guest78807 12:39:06 read-from-string isn't safe, and i don't know what ":Parser functions" is 12:40:01 it's package :parser 12:40:43 stassats, because I'm going to make a lot of function call 12:41:04 in term of performance, I must care about each 12:41:15 have you heard of premature optimization? 12:41:52 not yet 12:41:55 explain please 12:42:07 it's the root of all evil 12:42:09 maybe, I will take a look at gigamonkey book again 12:42:26 stassats, don't force me to come back to assembly 12:46:07 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:49:40 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 12:51:04 caring about performance on design level is fine, but I'd suggest you first get it working right, and just make sure you can change the parser 12:51:23 For example, by a bit of protocol-oriented design? 12:52:59 -!- oiiii [~oiiii@82.71.241.25] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:53:48 oiiii [~oiiii@82.71.241.25] has joined #lisp 12:54:39 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-41-208-219-19.wbs.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:55:39 Zulu [~Zulu@c-174-58-204-235.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:55:45 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@84-53-64-50.adsl.unet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:57:05 ISF [~ivan@201.82.136.131] has joined #lisp 13:01:10 superflit_ [~superflit@71-33-157-246.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 13:01:42 H4ns [41173d62@gateway/web/freenode/ip.65.23.61.98] has joined #lisp 13:02:32 -!- foocraft [foocraft@ibawizard.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:02:39 foocraft [foocraft@ibawizard.net] has joined #lisp 13:02:43 -!- superflit [~superflit@174-16-42-51.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:02:43 -!- superflit_ is now known as superflit 13:03:11 p_lbackup, Hey, if you remember my previous working app, along with heavily used "eval" , that later I have replaced with macro. 13:03:40 and so i must change a lot in my code. 13:04:27 *morphism* didn't know "eval" was that heavy, morphism just take use of its comfortability 13:04:54 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 13:08:17 jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-41-208-219-19.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:09:49 -!- cheezus [~Adium@76-10-168-148.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:10:01 morphism: gradually learn what lisp has to offer, and the most non-trivial problems may become a breeze over time :) 13:12:47 madnificent, it's not simple since I was developing my app and learning Lisp at the same time, choosing what best to use is always a question to me. 13:12:56 everytime encounter a situation 13:14:00 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 13:15:16 ChibaPet [~mason@c-68-58-147-105.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:19:31 ngz [~user@201.144.80.79.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 13:19:44 morphism: I know your son 13:20:13 Posterdati, how was it ? 13:20:25 morphism: automorphism 13:21:05 Posterdati, what a pity, I have no son, but "Megamind" 13:21:49 -!- Guest78807 [~x@2001:4968:200:0:5652:ff:fe55:7b51] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:21:53 morphism: so automorphism is a fake 13:21:58 morphism: you don't have to learn everything before you can start building something. people will tell you the code is written badly, and to some extent it will be, but it's still valuable to have constructed something. at least, that's my view 13:22:19 can you change the subject to something less silly? 13:22:59 stassats, me ? 13:23:06 madnificent: do you need an electrical circuts solver' 13:23:31 stassats: slime tips are awesome 13:23:40 I knew about C-c M-o but not C-c C-o :) 13:23:40 yes, awesome. thanks stassats. 13:23:42 xristos_ [~x@2001:4968:200:0:5652:ff:fe55:7b51] has joined #lisp 13:23:46 same here 13:23:50 madnificent, yeah, "Badly written", it's always what made me to think about "is there other better to do it ?" 13:23:53 same here :) 13:24:24 cheezus [~Adium@76-10-168-148.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 13:24:57 BrokenCog [~danielj@adsl-065-081-078-141.sip.pns.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 13:26:04 -!- wormwood [~wormwood@pdpc/supporter/student/wormwood] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:28:01 frozencemetery [~frozencem@CMU-786527.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #lisp 13:29:12 yeah, i don't think wondering about whether it can be done better will ever stop 13:29:17 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:30:38 That's something I think you have to get used to, because otherwise you will rewrite your code ad infinitum trying to perfect it 13:31:01 that's what i do with my code 13:31:02 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-pbkrlyepjaehnutm] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:31:33 -!- antifuchs [~foobar@care.boinkor.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:31:44 stassats: That's all well and good.. but if you need something produced, you'll never get there 13:32:11 that's not true 13:33:17 stassats: I know that of course there's a balance. You should rewrite until you're happy with it, but finding the right amount of 'happy' with it is a bit of a technique 13:33:45 -!- BrokenCog [~danielj@adsl-065-081-078-141.sip.pns.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: `butane if you're around, have a question for you.] 13:35:10 -!- Vutral [~ss@vutral.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:35:13 BrokenCog [~danielj@adsl-065-081-078-141.sip.pns.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 13:36:07 -!- nanoc [~conanhome@186.123.180.157] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:38:00 francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has joined #lisp 13:39:41 wormwood [~wormwood@pdpc/supporter/student/wormwood] has joined #lisp 13:41:28 Zulu: as long as you write good tests you can at least be reasonably sure that it works. if you still need to rewrite later you'll have a clear idea as to what you're doing and why. 13:42:45 Krystof [~user@81.174.155.115] has joined #lisp 13:43:15 j_king: I can't disagree with that 13:43:33 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:44:00 On another topic.. I macroexpanded the shiftf macro in SBCL 1.0.48, and noticed that it expands into a multiple-value-bind instead of a simple let.. Am I missing something ? 13:44:43 As in, (macroexpand-1 '(shiftf x y)) 13:45:16 Zulu: generalization of (shiftf (values x y) (values a b) (values 42 1)) 13:45:42 Ohhhh! Thanks Xach! 13:46:10 *Xach* drafts another tip 13:46:33 *stassats* writes tips live 13:47:13 -!- coyo [kvirc@unaffiliated/bandu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:47:38 belatedly, thanks stassats and Xach for the tips 13:47:59 TDT [~user@dhcpw81ffff75.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 13:48:12 nyef [~nyef@c-174-63-105-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:48:19 G'morning all. 13:48:59 hello nyef 13:49:13 Mornin' 13:50:00 -!- francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:50:03 I have just conceived a requirement for ATOMIC-PUSH... and also just realized that I can simulated it with C-A-S. 13:50:12 Err... s/simulated/simulate/. 13:52:44 Then again, what I really need to do is use a transactional data store in the first place. 13:54:11 gko [~gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:57:54 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 13:59:44 hlavaty [~user@91-65-217-112-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 13:59:45 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 14:01:54 mpelican [~mickp@mpls.sift.info] has joined #lisp 14:02:16 -!- mpelican is now known as mkp 14:02:28 jacks- [~redmundia@84.122.73.141.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 14:03:09 hello. in .asd is it possible to force loading of a file1.lisp when file2.lisp changes, even if file1.lisp itself has not changed? 14:03:52 jacks-: of course, that is what :depends is for. for simple systems, you can also use :serial t 14:03:58 jacks-: :depends-on even 14:03:59 jacks-: make file1 depend on file2? Only works if you can load file2 before file1 14:04:11 nice thanks 14:04:44 p_l|backup actually I'd rather if file1.lisp was loaded first. not possible? 14:05:49 jacks-: hm, sorry. i misinterpreted you. i don't think that you can easily revert the load order of dependencies. 14:06:24 lf file2.lisp depends on file1.lisp isn't lisp1.lisp always loaded first? 14:06:35 jacks-: right. 14:06:41 milanj [~milanj_@109-92-114-6.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 14:08:56 pmau5 [~patryk@c-68-40-60-13.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:09:24 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 14:10:41 well no that didn't work 14:10:50 let me paste 14:11:37 to be honest I am doing something weird 14:11:44 but still curious if this is possible 14:12:33 http://paste.lisp.org/display/125078 14:13:05 Why don't file1 and file2 depend on package? 14:13:16 if file2.lisp changes, only file2.lisp is loaded. i would like if they both did 14:13:18 -!- pmau5 [~patryk@c-68-40-60-13.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:13:23 with file1 loading first 14:13:26 I'm trying to come up with a scenario in which I'd -want- to do this, and drawing a rather large blank. 14:13:29 pjb I'm not sure what you mean 14:13:42 jacks-: why do you want that? 14:13:49 jacks-: isn't there a (in-package :my-package) in file1 and file2? 14:13:53 With the possible exception of file1 containing some sort of dataset. 14:14:05 Then it means the pacckage my-package must be defined first, therefore the file package must be loaded first. 14:14:07 But even that seems sketchy. 14:14:22 therefore ("file1" :depends-on ("package")). 14:17:23 nevermind, I was trying to do something stupid, I'll reorganize my files. pjb I don't have package 14:18:36 what I wanted was to have tests.lisp file, that will automatically load all the files starting with test- in a directory. but I just figured that asdf can't help me as I'm not including those files via asdf 14:18:48 so no way to get it to work, I think 14:19:04 the idea was to automatically reload tests.lisp every time some file in a directory changes 14:20:04 and it would be double stupid as I'd reload all the files, even though just one changed 14:20:11 Your tests don't depend on the files you're testing? 14:20:47 they do. my tests.asd depends on system-im-testing.asd, so that's loaded first 14:22:32 Why not invert the problem? Instead of using having loaded a changed file trigger the running the tests, have running the tests trigger loading changed files? 14:24:41 I'm not sure I got that 14:25:21 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 14:25:43 -!- paul0 [~paul0@189.26.131.120.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Quit: paul0] 14:27:21 Kron [~Kron@129-97-120-142.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 14:27:23 Hrm. Actually, that backs up to "how automatic is automatic?" Is there some action you take to tell the system that a file has changed and needs to be reloaded, or is there something like a periodic polling or inotify going on? 14:27:57 -!- Posterdati [~tapioca@host104-230-dynamic.7-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:28:09 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:28:12 -!- cheezus [~Adium@76-10-168-148.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:28:56 Anyway, the scenario you posited is that you want to re-run your tests when a changed file is reloaded. 14:28:58 my idea was that every time I add a file to that directory, or modify an exist one, asdf should load it 14:29:14 Ohh... You actually /do/ want inotify or a periodic polling process? 14:29:32 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-178-24.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:29:44 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Quit: Bad spellers of the world, untie!] 14:29:54 no I'd modify/add a test file then manually load the system 14:30:27 jacks-: and you want to do that without telling asdf something about the test files, right? 14:30:52 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-178-24.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:30:57 Okay, so you add or change a file somewhere, then you want a single action to check for new/updated files, build them, and then run the test suite? 14:30:59 yes. so I have no idea why I asked about :depends-on :) 14:31:10 nyef yes 14:31:24 I released a queue library if anyone is interested. I couldn't find anything like it on cliki or common-lisp.net. If I am wrong about that I am about to feel very stupid. Code reviews or bug fixes welcome. https://github.com/oconnore/queues 14:31:42 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 14:32:00 jacks-: you could add the files to the in-memory representation of the asdf system and arrange for the asdf to reload the tests whenever it load-op is executed 14:32:22 jacks-: that is entirely possible, although you'll need to get to terms with asdf internals, which is not always straightforward 14:32:51 I think I'd put the smarts in the test runner instead of trying to tie the smarts to ASDF. 14:33:20 -!- ISF [~ivan@201.82.136.131] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:33:29 If the asdf system needs updating, have the test runner ask asdf to do so, but make the test runner the entry point rather than asdf. 14:34:09 nyef: i'd probably do it that way, too, in particular as i find it rather hard to get to terms with asdf 14:34:50 you don't use asdf H4ns? 14:34:54 oconnore: not quite the same, but i recently learned about cl-speedy-queue. 14:35:05 jacks-: i do, but i rarely extend it. 14:35:18 -!- manuel__ [~manuel_@pD9FDE342.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: manuel__] 14:35:25 -!- newcup [newcup@peruna.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:35:25 Mmm. My current server project uses REQUIRE to pull in dependencies (thank you, SBCL and Quicklisp!) and just does LOAD or LOAD COMPILE-FILE for its internal files. 14:35:52 paul0 [~paul0@189.26.131.120.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 14:36:33 -!- guther [~guther@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-ofdkrrlfxlmwojzy] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:36:41 And the first form in each of my files actually provides information on which files it depends on, so I can put together something smarter later on. 14:36:42 Xach: interesting, I wonder if it beats my implementation 14:36:50 Both are non-consing 14:36:51 ramusara [~ramusara@220.156.210.236.user.e-catv.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:37:32 oconnore: there's also http://www.thoughtcrime.us/software/jpl-queues/ 14:38:30 sb-concurrency:queue 14:39:37 -!- sonnym1 [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-69.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:40:44 stassats: I suppose I could have hooked into that when the user is running sbcl, but in general that isn't very compatible :P 14:41:03 what, not everybody is using sbcl? 14:41:55 fwiw, cl-speedy-queues aren't able to grow. 14:42:03 only 99% 14:42:07 stassats`: I used CCL within the past week. 14:42:10 so they may not be very useful to some 14:42:10 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-113-199.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:42:20 i just used ccl to quickly run an a different version of the application 14:42:45 after switching branches 14:43:23 LiamH: around? 14:43:33 luis: Hi 14:44:17 LiamH: so I was trying to debug the issue you sent me but got stuck looking at defcfun. 14:44:39 Which issue, the aggregate slots? 14:44:45 yes 14:45:47 Ok, what's the problem with defcfun? 14:45:49 Design question: Given a system FOO that has a couple of packages FOO-A, FOO-B and FOO-C. All of these uses common functionality from a package of generic stuff. What's a good name for such package? I'm thinking FOO-COMMON, FOO-MISC, or something to that effect. 14:46:09 Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.233] has joined #lisp 14:46:13 FOO? 14:46:31 -!- morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.192.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:46:35 LiamH: it had a small issue with variadic functions, but I've fixed that. 14:46:39 Xach: I was thinking that first, but the stuff in that package is not meant to be exposed to the end-user. 14:46:41 loke: why use multiple packages per system ? 14:46:58 why not use one package per file? 14:47:01 oho 14:47:23 fe[nl]ix: the system is CL-GDATA, and I wanted to put the individual Google services in different packages, like Cl-GDATA-PICASA, CL-GDATA-SPREADSHEETS etc... 14:47:24 sykopomp: what are you, a java programmer? :) 14:47:41 luis: Oh, I bypassed the call-by-value issue for variadic. So you can't do it (yet). 14:47:52 H4ns: no, but I am pleased with the way my experiment is going! 14:48:09 fe[nl]ix: should I still stick with only one package? 14:48:12 LiamH: yes, but the regular variadic case was broken too. cffi-tests is your friend. :) 14:48:29 LiamH: anyway, the fn-call-by-value-p branch seems redundant. I wonder if we can make it use %defcfun. 14:48:32 and I certainly don't feel like it's holding me back... and it's still CL so I can always break that model if it becomes inconvenient. 14:49:01 sykopomp: so basically, you export everything that needs to be exported from the file that it is defined in, and qualify all accesses from the outside? 14:49:17 luis: Sure, if you have a way of doing that. 14:49:27 H4ns: https://github.com/sykopomp/sykosomatic/tree/develop/src Most of these files have their own package. 14:49:49 morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.192.25] has joined #lisp 14:49:55 H4ns: I mostly just :use the packages that have symbols I'm interested in, and :export only the interface for that package. 14:50:20 cesarbp [~cbolano@189.139.180.200] has joined #lisp 14:50:47 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Quit: bye] 14:50:48 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@Conors-iPad.wlan.clarkson.edu] has quit [Quit: Offline] 14:51:04 sykopomp: that does not look entirely unreasonable, but can you explain the benefits of the approach? 14:51:54 LiamH: meh, I think it's only because of Allegro that DEFCFUN doesn't simply call foreign-funcall in all cases. DEFCFUN used to be really simple. 14:52:59 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-41-208-219-19.wbs.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:53:06 H4ns: One that I like is that it helps me keep a cleaner design: I have a better understanding of what parts of the system depend on which ones. It's helped me keep things a bit more organized and modular. 14:53:54 -!- ZabaQ [~john.conn@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:54:20 luis: If I recall, I just dug down into defcfun until I found it was really foreign-funcall, so I cut in at a high level which was I guess not the best way, but it works for the short term. BTW, I have done nothing with defcallback if you want to look at that too. 14:54:32 H4ns: a nicer one that I discovered recently is that it was a lot easier to write a test suite. The package :exports are the guidelines for what I need to test from each 'module', so the way I write tests is I keep a mirror of src/ in a test/ directory, create identically-named files, import the corresponding package for that file and any utility packages, and write a test for each :export of that 14:54:34 package. 14:55:12 kpreid [~kpreid@Conors-iPad.wlan.clarkson.edu] has joined #lisp 14:55:17 nyef_ [~nyef@c-174-63-105-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:55:22 sykopomp: i see. a possible downside is that such a system is not as easy to explore because one needs to find the right package and the right symbol on the repl 14:55:37 Bloody wireless gateway. 14:55:40 I haven't really had that problem, I have to admit. 14:55:44 sykopomp: at least when it comes to tab expanding symbols, that is. 14:55:47 M-. follows symbols through the right package. 14:55:59 We're discussing one-package-per-file, aren't we? 14:56:08 we are 14:56:14 H4ns: the Allegro IDE has cross-package tab completion :) 14:56:24 sykopomp: certainly so, but like foo would only expand symbols in the current package beginning with foo 14:56:31 felideon: the what? 14:56:47 -!- nyef [~nyef@c-174-63-105-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:56:54 Looks like the ccl logs are blank for today? 14:57:00 felideon: ah, you mean the gui thing that i always minimize when it pops up? :) 14:57:03 H4ns: yup. 14:57:13 I can't say it's bothered me, in practice. 14:57:14 Thus far, I'm also liking one-package-per-file. 14:57:19 -!- nyef_ is now known as nyef 14:57:21 H4ns: Yes, that same one. :D 14:57:28 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483D484.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:57:32 I also learned about C-c ~, which has made this system even easier to deal with. 14:57:40 felideon: i'm not going to learn that to any extent. 14:57:54 and since a module represents kind of an incapsulated chunk of behavior, I usually work on a single module at a time, and sometimes its dependencies. 14:58:01 nyef: did you see my link? 14:58:22 i have been using a one-package-per-file scheme in other projects, too, but basically to shield myself against the rest of the system, which resided in one big package 14:58:27 pnq [~nick@ACA35673.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 14:58:31 Last thing I saw was H4ns asking about benefits. 14:58:39 Then I tried to say something, then I got disconnected. 14:58:45 nyef: https://github.com/sykopomp/sykosomatic/tree/develop/src 14:59:02 nyef: I also have util:def-file-package to reduce the defpackage/in-package noise. 14:59:18 sykopomp: how does that interact with slime? 14:59:21 and I've been debating having a system for automatically figuring out the package name based on the file path. 14:59:49 H4ns: I have a patch for slime-search-buffer-package 14:59:49 sykopomp: you ARE a java man! :) 15:00:21 sykopomp: The real trick would be to have your build system figure out the file path based on the package name. :-P 15:01:25 H4ns: Eh. I think of Java as a bondage and discipline, too-verbose thing. I don't feel like I'm being either here, and I'm looking for ways to reduce noise as I go along. 15:01:41 sykopomp: no offense 15:01:59 it doesn't make me a java man any more than talking about interfaces and protocols does, just because Java has Interfaces. ;) 15:02:15 sykopomp: chill, i won't say it again! 15:02:20 java man 15:02:25 *sykopomp* foams at the mouth. 15:02:44 H4ns: I did use one-package-per-file in a very large system precisely to shield myself from others' changes, though. 15:03:03 it did not make a certain someone terribly happy, either, so that 'bad habit' stopped. 15:03:03 ok, i like it. 15:03:05 <_< 15:03:11 :D 15:03:22 uh, well, thank you for paving my way. 15:03:38 -!- acelent` is now known as acelent 15:03:57 *sykopomp* has left some scars^W^Whis mark. 15:04:08 As I tried to say earlier, one benefit of one-package-per-file is that inter-file dependencies are declared at the start of each file. 15:04:39 In my case, I'll typically :use some packages, and :import-from some others (typically I :use intra-project packages and :import-from outside packages). 15:05:06 nyef: have you looked at all into having ASDF build the system based on those declarations? 15:05:27 No, I haven't. 15:05:40 I really don't like dealing with ASDF. 15:05:47 nyef: what about external packages that have lots of symbols? :import-from doesn't import all, right? 15:06:01 Right, it's for cherry-picking the symbols you want. 15:06:14 hm. 15:06:52 would be nice to have local package and symbol aliases, but I can't say I've been hurting without them. 15:07:05 (I know local package aliases are available for SBCL, though) 15:07:08 So I can say (:import-from :hunchentoot "DEFINE-EASY-HANDLER" "CONTENT-TYPE*") and not worry about colliding the rest of the symbols. 15:07:53 (Although right now, for hunchentoot, I'm just using the package prefixes. It's st-json that I'm using :import-from with.) 15:08:14 Oh, and sb-thread. I'm importing from sb-thread in one file. 15:08:50 *Xach* often selectively imports from sb-ext 15:09:12 Moving code from one file to another highlights deficiencies in the symbol conflict resolution with SBCL and SLIME, though, at least as of SLIME 2011-07-03. 15:09:53 nostoi [~nostoi@46.Red-79-157-235.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:10:03 Yuuhi [benni@p5483D484.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:10:20 LiamH: oh well, pushed the fix, not great. I have to get out for a while, will continue looking at your problem when I come back. See ya. 15:10:43 luis: OK, thanks. I'll be on here for a while. 15:12:05 ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 15:12:33 nyef: I like what CCL does. :) 15:12:45 Oh? 15:12:55 urandom__ [~user@p548A2425.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:13:00 I've yet to use more than a single file with CCL. 15:13:13 CCL just gives you a restart that asks you how to resolve all the symbol conflicts. 15:13:24 usually, "unintern all" does exactly what I want. 15:13:26 and that's done 15:13:32 Hunh. Neat. 15:13:33 IIRC, SBCL makes me go symbol-by-symbol 15:13:57 Yeah, but even symbol-by-symbol wouldn't be so bad if it didn't involve picking the symbol in the REPL window. 15:14:02 and there was that one thing that had to do with removing exported symbols from the defpackage, where I had to manually (unexport ...), in SBCL 15:14:10 don't recall what the specifics of that was, but it was crazy. 15:14:34 nyef: symbol-by-symbol is still a pain when, say, I forgot to export the symbols that I was using in my test file from the parent package. 15:14:39 Then flipping back to the debugger to deal with the next error, then once all that's done re-executing the defpackage form to make sure it now compiles without error... 15:14:41 and suddenly there's 20 missing symbols. 15:14:56 in CCL, I can just add the exports, C-c C-k, choose the unintern restart, and I'm ready to go. 15:15:27 -!- frozencemetery [~frozencem@CMU-786527.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:15:50 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 15:15:51 (and I guess C-c C-k the test file again, so the symbols are re-resolved) 15:15:53 Mmm. I still haven't gotten the hang of testing. 15:16:27 nyef: https://github.com/sykopomp/sykosomatic/blob/develop/test/components/container.lisp -very- easy once you have the single package system :) 15:16:39 nyef: you get it when you write the tests before the functions. 15:16:58 in this case, augmented with a macro that also defines Eos test suites, on top of defining the file package. 15:17:16 I did start factoring my hunchentoot handlers to have the "handler" and the actual logic in separate functions, with all of the hunchentoot-facing function calls in the handler. 15:17:46 nyef: https://github.com/sykopomp/sykosomatic/tree/develop/src/handlers like this? :) 15:19:22 sykopomp: More of a (multiple-value-bind (content-type body) (actual-logic-function ...) (setf (hunchentoot:content-type*) content-type) body) 15:20:02 If the function needs parameters (either get or post), they are passed as arguments to actual-logic-function. 15:20:02 ahh 15:20:18 so you can switch to allegroserve when hunchentoot is unsatisfactory :D 15:20:50 No, so I can test the handlers without having to mock up all of hunchentoot. 15:20:52 that reminds me 15:21:02 *Xach* wonders who is responsible for acl-compat these days, if anyone 15:21:03 ah, yes. That's a good point :\ 15:21:26 I've been hankering for a nice, web-framework-independent form builder for CL 15:21:49 pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 15:22:36 that handles form validation, repopulation, rendering, etc, and just takes alists of values that can be passed in from whatever handler you're using. 15:24:11 coyo [kvirc@pool-71-164-173-28.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:24:11 -!- coyo [kvirc@pool-71-164-173-28.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 15:24:11 coyo [kvirc@unaffiliated/bandu] has joined #lisp 15:24:11 killerboy [~mateusz@users69.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 15:24:37 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:24:42 -!- Kron [~Kron@129-97-120-142.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:26:01 X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 15:26:16 -!- aerique [310225@xs8.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 15:29:03 -!- rainyrhy is now known as rainyrhy|afk 15:30:19 Kron [~Kron@129-97-120-142.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 15:30:53 sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-72-43-20-246.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:31:23 Hrm. SB-EXT:COMPARE-AND-SWAP isn't /quite/ as useful as it might be. 15:32:43 easyE` [rweZ6jfKRh@panix2.panix.com] has joined #lisp 15:33:21 It'd be nice if you could just pass a symbol to it instead of one of about six kinds of place. 15:33:22 frozencemetery [~frozencem@CMU-786527.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #lisp 15:33:22 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@59.42.112.140] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:33:49 gaidal [~gaidal@59.42.112.140] has joined #lisp 15:34:08 Have it expand symbol-macros, treat specials as their symbol-value slots, do something non-threadsafe with non-closed-over lexicals, and do a proper C-A-S on value cells. 15:34:13 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.39] has joined #lisp 15:34:14 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@59.42.112.140] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:34:40 gaidal [~gaidal@59.42.112.140] has joined #lisp 15:36:34 Xach: what is it that you're going to replace asdf with? 15:36:48 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:38:13 Okay, code feedback request time: http://paste.lisp.org/display/125079 15:38:38 "Something else" 15:38:40 solfraze [~jfrazier@c-66-30-113-136.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:38:46 "WASD: Awesome System Definitions"? 15:38:51 ASDF3! 15:39:22 ASDFG 15:39:25 ok, just feared i missed something. 15:39:38 xcvb 15:39:42 just kidding. 15:39:45 haha 15:40:30 siva [~siva@pool-71-191-58-221.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:40:37 AOEU? 15:40:52 +1 15:41:40 The problem as I see it is not that CL has too few terrible names for things. 15:42:35 cheezus [~Adium@ottawa-hs-64-26-155-214.s-ip.magma.ca] has joined #lisp 15:42:43 I'm havin a problem wherein I need to take a list of values like (killer gun knife) and if anywhere i find the value "gun" then i need to replace the gun by two or more elements and I need to work this out using a macro since i have a lot of lists of edit.can someone help me on this? 15:42:58 i'd call it "code-loader" or something similar 15:43:15 siva: you don't need to write a macro to do that! 15:43:32 or a function, either, since it is written for you already... 15:43:49 pjb a fucntion wouldn't work as i have a lot of s-expressions 15:43:55 and it would be a mess 15:44:08 siva: who's the newbie, who's the seasonned programmer her? 15:44:11 here? 15:44:31 pjb: Psst. Only one #\n in "seasoned". 15:44:31 lispnewbie is gone 15:44:38 probably with the same homework 15:44:49 wasn't lispnewbie making a roguelike? 15:44:53 Wraithan [~wraithan@c-67-189-110-252.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:46:07 haha, ~siva@pool-71-191-58-221.washdc.fios.verizon.net looks suspiciously similar to ~lispnewbi@pool-71-191-58-221.washdc.fios.verizon.net 15:46:24 pure coincidence 15:46:29 definitely 15:46:32 you can't hide the truth. 15:46:38 haha you got me 15:47:24 i'm workin on a large part of code and i know that i can use functions for gettin a solution but i was said that macros could make those easier 15:47:39 and if i use functions then it would be a large mess 15:47:42 Xach: What function is this? all I can think of is substitute and such, but they don't interpolate. 15:47:57 siva: it's more likely the other way around 15:48:06 subst only works on single element doensn't it?? 15:48:14 siva: especially if you have no clue how macros work 15:48:22 siva: have you read the documentation? 15:48:55 www.l1sp.org/cl/subst 15:49:01 i hope the url works 15:49:03 -!- cheezus [~Adium@ottawa-hs-64-26-155-214.s-ip.magma.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:49:04 siva: before thinking about writing a macro, you should read and study: http://www.lisperati.com/casting.html 15:49:29 Bike: interpolate? 15:49:45 hmmm i'll look onto it 15:49:50 My first reaction would actually be to reach for LOOP. My second reaction would be to stop and say "wait, there's probably a better way". 15:49:56 cheezus [~Adium@76-10-168-148.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 15:50:06 It sounds like siva wants something like (killer gun knife) => (killer blackjack force knife), I mean. 15:50:21 nyef: there is. You could use loopless. 15:50:24 Asking on IRC is typically around step five or six. 15:50:32 Bike: ah, I see. 15:50:49 nyef: what's wring with LOOP? 15:50:54 wrong 15:51:27 loke: Doesn't express intent properly. 15:51:48 The intent is some particular substitution, not monkeying with list structure. 15:52:10 -!- oconnore [~Eric@c-66-31-125-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:52:46 And my LOOP would start off with FOR item ON list WHEN (eq item 'gun) DO (something-horrible-with list). 15:53:06 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA35673.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:53:08 nyef: mm... good point 15:53:27 besides, isn't it undefined behaviour to modify the list that you are iterating through? 15:53:34 Probably a (setf car) followed by a (setf cdr) with `(blah blah blah . ,(cdr item)). 15:53:42 loke: http://l1sp.org/cl/3.6 spells it out 15:54:11 loke: It depends on how well you know your iterator. 15:54:59 -!- frozencemetery [~frozencem@CMU-786527.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:55:11 As far as I can see, there are two main possibilities. Either the next iteration is on one of the spliced-in cons cells, or it follows the original list structure. 15:55:11 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.87.120] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:55:11 -!- X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:55:21 pnq [~nick@ACA35673.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 15:55:24 Xach: this is not totally clear to me: "For list traversal operations, the cdr chain of the list is not allowed to be destructively modified." 15:55:25 If it follows the original structure, you're home free. 15:55:37 Xach: are they saying JUST the CDR, or anything in the CDR-part? 15:55:38 If it follows the new list structure, you better hope that GUN isn't in that new list. 15:55:50 loke: the "chain" part is important. 15:55:58 loke: the cdr, and its cdr, and its cdr, etc. 15:55:59 X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 15:56:02 Xach: ah of course. I'm stupid 15:56:21 Xach: so I was right then, wasn't I? 15:56:50 loke: it depends on what you mean by "modify", i guess. 15:57:17 So, yes, it's probably undefined, but at the same time the implementation choices are unlikely to produce behavior I can't live with. 15:57:59 a discussion like this, involving xof, led erik naggum to stop posting code publicly. 15:58:07 Another option, of course, is LOOP APPENDING. 15:58:16 Xach: Oh? 15:58:25 Xach: why? 15:58:37 *Xach* digs up the thread 15:59:00 http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3247834704250207@naggum.no.html is the part i was thinking of. 15:59:06 -!- frhodes [~user@168-103-97-250.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:59:32 http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3247805927894274@naggum.no.html is the code, i think. 16:00:33 *sykopomp* has never heard 'catamaran' being used as an insult. 16:01:25 you've never been on one in the open ocen in a storm, I guess. :) 16:01:30 s/ocen/ocean 16:01:32 Every time I read one of Naggum's messages I learn three new insults 16:02:05 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.79.224] has joined #lisp 16:02:26 -!- Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.233] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:02:49 Fade: Too much torque between the hulls? 16:03:00 catamaran means "a quarrelsome woman" 16:03:59 -!- Vivitron [~user@pool-108-7-56-243.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:04:25 *sykopomp* can use a thesaurus as well as naggum can. 16:04:48 sykopomp: heh, I was wondering about that! 16:05:19 Xach: I can see what he's saying, but I can't say I agree with his argument. 16:05:38 ... Interesting. I don't see "quarrelsome" in the google results, but I see one hit for a female human, and one hit for a non-sailboat watercraft. 16:06:08 Hrm. Two hits for non-sailboat watercraft. 16:06:13 Bike [~Glossina@69.166.35.233] has joined #lisp 16:07:34 nyef, well, no. in confused seas they can and often do roll off their beam ends, and a multihull will never self right. 16:07:52 -!- siva [~siva@pool-71-191-58-221.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: IRC webchat at http://irc2go.com/] 16:07:55 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-89-130.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:08:03 I think we need drewc involved in this catamaran conversation. 16:08:14 is he quarrelsome? 16:08:21 he's a sailor. :) 16:08:29 Fade: Ahh. Okay, I can see that. 16:09:14 KingNato_ [~patno@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 16:09:45 Fade: Can you de-sync the hulls temporarily to allow them to self-right individually, then reattach them? I acknowledge that that'd be a bad thing to do /during a storm/, but once it's passed? 16:09:52 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:10:13 Xach: looking at the code, I have to admit that I don't see why his solution is so much better than a plain recursive descent solution? Care to provide some elightenment? 16:10:24 What's the benefit of a multi-hull, anyway? 16:10:24 -!- KingNato [~patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:10:40 nyef: Stability, I think. 16:10:54 A friend of mine lives on a trimaran. 16:11:15 nyef: I believe it's because you can reduce the amount of hull actually touching water = less resistance 16:11:19 I see... So better average stability, at the cost of a devastating worst-case stability? 16:11:39 see what Naggum did, started an off-topic 16:11:42 nyef: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trimaran#Comparison_to_Monohulls 16:11:51 nyef -- well, I guess anything is possible, but the weights involved, would require machinery with a very dense power source. 16:11:56 "unsinkable" apparently  you'd think they'd stop using that word ;) 16:12:07 BountyX [~erhan@csu-137-148-247-209.csuohio.edu] has joined #lisp 16:12:19 alkoma [~alkoma@c-98-207-166-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:12:26 and once the hulls were separated, you'd still have the issue of the cabin, which rides on the bridges between the hulls. 16:12:27 sellout-: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." 16:12:34 the right architecture is one hull. :) 16:12:42 how can you live on one of those things. 16:13:10 Fade: But a trimaran has the cabin in the main hull. 16:13:27 sure, and a trimaran will also never self right. 16:13:36 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 16:13:39 -!- KingNato_ [~patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:13:52 (nevermind, I was looking at the BMW picture and didn't see the cabin) 16:14:53 -!- ramusara [~ramusara@220.156.210.236.user.e-catv.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 16:15:48 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:16:15 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@Conors-iPad.wlan.clarkson.edu] has quit [Quit: Offline] 16:16:36 -!- pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:17:05 Hmm. Kindof neat. 16:17:14 And now I need to get back to work for a bit. 16:18:04 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@46.Red-79-157-235.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 16:18:11 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Quit: Byebye.] 16:18:57 -!- Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:23:39 kpreid [~kpreid@Conors-iPad.wlan.clarkson.edu] has joined #lisp 16:25:27 -!- Blkt [~user@89-96-199-46.ip13.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: going home...] 16:26:11 dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-89-130.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:26:51 -!- BountyX [~erhan@csu-137-148-247-209.csuohio.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:27:03 -!- easyE` [rweZ6jfKRh@panix2.panix.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:28:31 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-89-130.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:30:02 -!- oiiii [~oiiii@82.71.241.25] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:30:33 -!- xristos_ [~x@2001:4968:200:0:5652:ff:fe55:7b51] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:32:01 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@Conors-iPad.wlan.clarkson.edu] has quit [Quit: Offline] 16:32:14 xristos [~x@2001:4968:200:0:5652:ff:fe55:7b51] has joined #lisp 16:32:19 -!- xristos is now known as Guest80506 16:33:22 SegFaultAX [~mkbernard@173.228.45.162] has joined #lisp 16:34:48 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA35673.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:35:34 -!- Guest80506 [~x@2001:4968:200:0:5652:ff:fe55:7b51] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:35:50 loke: http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3247815643556673@naggum.no.html mentions the point. 16:36:15 -!- gko [~gko@220-135-201-90.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [] 16:36:23 pnq [~nick@ACA35673.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 16:37:13 rme [~rme@50.43.153.241] has joined #lisp 16:37:18 -!- benny [~benny@i577A8A85.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:37:51 Xach, other then that it does not work on sbcl 16:38:42 benny [~benny@i577A8A85.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 16:39:44 xristos_ [~x@2001:4968:200:0:5652:ff:fe55:7b51] has joined #lisp 16:39:50 I think he's making a poor argument in this case, which is remarkable as I often find myself agreeing with him. 16:40:32 He's arguing that the restriction for MAP makes sense, while it's stupid for DOLIST, even though it's perfectly logical to implement DOLIST in terms of MAP