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http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/] 06:18:06 eli [~eli@champlain.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #lisp 06:18:28 -!- eli [~eli@champlain.ccs.neu.edu] has left #lisp 06:18:57 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@189.59.215.244] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:20:05 -!- platypine [lambda@c-76-118-155-244.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:20:58 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:21:38 myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 06:28:13 -!- cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.139.95.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 241 seconds] 06:34:10 gozek [~quassel@56.165.216.87.static.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 06:34:29 Ragnaroek [~Adium@p5B0C4B9F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:34:51 Mococa [~Mococa@189.59.215.244] has joined #lisp 06:35:50 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-112-164.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:38:44 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-136-42.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:38:45 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 06:39:05 cfy [~cfy@122.228.131.78] has joined #lisp 06:39:26 -!- cfy [~cfy@122.228.131.78] has quit [Changing host] 06:39:26 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 06:42:20 woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 06:43:17 -!- McMAGIC-- [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:47:30 kiuma [~kiuma@93-36-11-25.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 06:47:44 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-123.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:47:49 hello 06:48:50 adu [~ajr@softbank220043139062.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 06:49:05 ZaXora [2923bf27@gateway/web/freenode/ip.41.35.191.39] has joined #lisp 06:49:37 Hello, I found out this book ZaXora http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ and have a question 06:50:18 is it about teaching computer theory and CS or as symbolic computing 'do not know what that is' via LISP only? 06:50:29 Buganini_ [~buganini@163.22.93.132] has joined #lisp 06:50:34 -!- Buganini [~buganini@security-hole.info] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:51:33 *_3b* suspects it has an introduction that tells what it intends to teach 06:52:03 _3b I am sorry? 06:52:53 ah, found out what you mean 06:53:18 so, what if I want to boost my learning and join any open source project 06:53:30 how this book is going to help me 06:53:40 while it teaches me LISP only 06:53:43 or 06:53:55 <_3b> if you want to learn common lisp, but don't know other languages it might be a good choice 06:54:06 if it's programming it self, I think I can move on, do not you agree? 06:54:18 _3b: I know no other langauges 06:54:51 <_3b> are you looking to learn common lisp, or programming in general? 06:56:09 <_3b> for programming in general, you might also be interested in sicp 06:56:19 <_3b> minion: tell ZaXora about sicp 06:56:20 ZaXora: please look at sicp: The Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs, a CS textbook using Scheme. Available under the CC-BY-NC Licence at (HTML), (Texinfo), and (PDF). Video lectures are available under the CC-BY-SA licence at 06:56:33 _dev0_ [~dev@c-24-16-28-215.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:56:48 programing in general 06:57:20 mgindulescu [~mircea@nat/nokia/x-cbtywdqrkqhyfiun] has joined #lisp 06:57:32 _3b: I downloaded the whole series and frankly did not feel like I can go further 06:57:40 -!- mgindulescu [~mircea@nat/nokia/x-cbtywdqrkqhyfiun] has left #lisp 06:57:44 in another words, poring like hell! 06:58:00 perhaps it's the lecturere him self, do not know 06:58:02 <_3b> well, given that we are in a channel about common lisp, my biased suggestion would be to learn common lisp, in which case the first book is would be a good choice 06:58:13 <_3b> sicp is also a good book, but doesn't use common lisp 06:58:25 _3b: what if arguably we were some where else? 06:58:30 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:59:04 <_3b> if you want a more interesting book, you could also look at land of lisp (not available online though) 06:59:19 can I pm? 06:59:26 -!- woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:59:38 *_3b* assumes so, but makes no guarantees of replying 07:00:25 *_3b* never understood the custom of asking permission in channel, since the target needs to respond anyway, and it just wastes everyone else's time too :p 07:01:14 in my case, I can garntee I have a reason 07:02:38 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 07:02:38 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 07:02:38 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:03:22 -!- Ragnaroek [~Adium@p5B0C4B9F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:03:43 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@189.59.215.244] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:05:33 -!- adu [~ajr@softbank220043139062.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 07:05:59 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 07:06:01 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:07:33 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:10:19 Davsebamse [~das@94.127.50.104] has joined #lisp 07:12:19 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 07:13:25 -!- ZaXora [2923bf27@gateway/web/freenode/ip.41.35.191.39] has left #lisp 07:13:33 leo2007 [~leo@114.249.193.4] has joined #lisp 07:14:28 Buganini [~buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 07:14:40 -!- Buganini_ [~buganini@163.22.93.132] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:15:30 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:16:01 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 07:16:01 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 07:16:01 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:18:25 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:19:29 flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:baac:6fff:fe6b:9183] has joined #lisp 07:19:29 -!- flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:baac:6fff:fe6b:9183] has quit [Changing host] 07:19:29 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 07:21:50 relcomp [~chatzilla@nat.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has joined #lisp 07:25:01 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-157-151.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:30:34 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-191-71.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:33:22 ilynva [~energetik@mail.kgtei.ru] has joined #lisp 07:35:20 wliao [~wliao@123.119.244.131] has joined #lisp 07:39:39 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has joined #lisp 07:41:03 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.236.181] has joined #lisp 07:42:23 -!- mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.236.181] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:44:44 ltriant [~ltriant@124-168-76-146.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 07:45:19 adu [~ajr@softbank220043138128.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 07:48:11 -!- rootlocus [~rootlocus@240218000001280102264afffe09eee2.ptr-ipv6.nicta.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:49:27 -!- derrotebaron [johannes@static.7.69.47.78.clients.your-server.de] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.0] 07:51:25 Phoodus [~foo@ip68-231-47-70.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 08:00:33 kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-67-249-228-147.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:01:23 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-140-178.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:02:56 -!- adu [~ajr@softbank220043138128.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 08:05:09 -!- gozek [~quassel@56.165.216.87.static.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:05:45 -!- jsoftw [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:07:01 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 08:07:07 Ragnaroek [~Adium@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 08:07:56 insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-19-115.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:10:41 e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-thxoopfeoteccram] has joined #lisp 08:10:55 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-24-192.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:10:55 -!- insomnia1alt is now known as insomniaSalt 08:22:06 -!- ilynva [~energetik@mail.kgtei.ru] has left #lisp 08:22:09 Edisto [~IceChat7@c-67-169-114-235.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:22:20 i have an GA that is taking 15 cards and splitting them into 5 piles of 3 cards, where each pile has to add to a certain number. However 2 piles are off by like 1 or 2 numbers. i adjusted the seed to be a constant and change its value but i still am off by the same error 08:22:31 i increased the population size and it gives me some variation that is closer but then i increase it more and its off anyone know what im missing? 08:23:26 Edisto: did you write the splitting into piles yourself or is it some library that does it? 08:23:45 did it myself 08:24:05 -!- Ragnaroek [~Adium@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:24:06 i have aan array that is 0 - 14 then i assign a number value to each array 08:24:16 Edisto: well then, how are we supposed to know why your code is wrong? 08:24:21 that is 0 - 4 so 0 is pile 1 1 is pile 2 and so forth 08:24:40 Ragnaroek [~Adium@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 08:25:15 Edisto: the splitting is done in a single function? you can use lisppaste to paste the code 08:25:25 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 08:25:42 well i actually did it in c++ =D but the guys over there don't know about genetic algorithms ^.^ 08:26:19 but let me post it 08:26:35 pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-53-100.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:27:38 http://codepad.org/IWEOUV4V 08:27:48 btw ignore the errrors it runs fine 08:27:54 or the warnings i should say 08:28:20 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-53-100.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 08:28:24 Edisto: if i wanted to see C++, i'd /join #cplusplus or something 08:28:33 rofl 08:28:59 -!- Spion__ [~spion@77.29.253.26] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:29:00 yeah.... i havn't worked long enough to be that confy with lisp to write a program of this magnitude 08:29:44 gozek [~quassel@85.52.166.111] has joined #lisp 08:30:10 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:31:36 Edisto: the problem is -- why are you trying to find help with your problem here, in #lisp? 08:32:21 well i would have imagined most lispers would know enough to deal with c++ to be able to help... maybe my biased assumption though 08:32:32 Because we're the geniuses of freenode, in #cplusplus they don't know GA. 08:32:43 lol 08:32:52 Edisto: we know, but we don't like it :-) 08:33:25 Edisto: perhaps you could read PAIP and learn enough lisp to translate this code? 08:34:15 lol i could probally translate it... but uhmm... would take me a while.... 08:34:31 minion: tell Edisto about PAIP 08:34:32 Edisto: please see PAIP: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming: Case Studies in Common Lisp by Peter Norvig. http://www.cliki.net/PAIP 08:37:17 -!- Hun [~Hun@host-80-81-19-29.customer.m-online.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:37:22 jobf [~jfranck@c-9fbde555.03-87-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 08:37:50 Hun [~Hun@host-80-81-19-29.customer.m-online.net] has joined #lisp 08:39:23 yeah lol i'd have to do alot to translate... im not that lispy yet 08:39:51 put that code into .lisp file, fix syntax errors until it compiles 08:40:14 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:40:55 cfy [~cfy@122.228.131.78] has joined #lisp 08:41:02 -!- ravic [~ravi@118-93-167-37.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:41:03 -!- cfy [~cfy@122.228.131.78] has quit [Changing host] 08:41:03 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 08:43:07 you mean i can convert c++ into lisp by just running as a .lisp file? 08:43:28 sure, after fixing errors 08:44:19 i don't have any errors... i ran it with clisp and it just ran and immediately closed 08:44:46 that's an implicit error 08:45:09 aerique [310225@xs3.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:46:02 MoALTz__ [~no@92.8.232.86] has joined #lisp 08:47:45 thats interesting... so how do i get the program to not close so i can see what line the error is on? 08:48:34 Edisto: clisp RET (compile-file "source.lisp") RET 08:49:05 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@92.8.232.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:50:24 aimxhaisse [~mxs@buffout.org] has joined #lisp 08:53:15 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@93-36-11-25.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:53:41 -!- wliao [~wliao@123.119.244.131] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:54:06 wliao [~wliao@123.116.132.227] has joined #lisp 08:55:15 jsoftw [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 08:58:28 ok.... last error im down to says after #\# is #\i undefined dispatch macro character 08:58:30 or i hope 08:58:43 what is it trying to tell me 08:59:01 or i shold say what is trying to tell me abotu where i can find the undefined char 08:59:10 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 08:59:10 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Changing host] 08:59:10 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 08:59:35 -!- wliao [~wliao@123.116.132.227] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:59:55 wliao [~wliao@123.116.132.227] has joined #lisp 09:00:26 <_3b> Edisto: that error is more or less saying "you need to rewrite it in lisp, and/or stop listening to silly people on IRC" 09:00:48 lol 09:00:50 <_3b> (more specifically, it doesn't like "#include <...>" 09:01:16 lol 09:01:28 <_3b> you can eithert fix that by implementing #include, or removing those lines and continuing to the next error 09:02:06 -!- wliao [~wliao@123.116.132.227] has quit [Client Quit] 09:02:11 <_3b> (or implementing a c++ syntax reader, and using that in place of CL:READ) 09:02:26 Liera [~user@123.21.161.118] has joined #lisp 09:02:33 wliao [~wliao@123.116.132.227] has joined #lisp 09:03:21 -!- wliao [~wliao@123.116.132.227] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 09:03:27 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Client Quit] 09:03:49 ehu [~ehuels@109.34.250.93] has joined #lisp 09:04:00 wliao [~wliao@123.116.132.227] has joined #lisp 09:05:04 yeah.... this is way too complicated lol... its telling me lines are declared or bound on everything lol 09:05:45 or actually it seems like any variables declared globally 09:05:50 does it not liek globals either? 09:06:19 <_3b> it doesn't like anything that isn't common lisp, unless you tell it how to interpret it 09:08:40 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:10:26 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:10:30 MoALTz [~no@92.8.244.147] has joined #lisp 09:10:33 -!- MoALTz__ [~no@92.8.232.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:13:27 lol that ain't gonna work everything im declaring is saying its not declared i'll just pray i run into a person who knows GA and c++ aka a miracle 09:13:49 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:13:58 -!- lanthan [~ze@80.64.176.30] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 09:14:06 Edisto: your problem with splitting stuff into piles is not related to GA in any way 09:14:21 it uses tournament selection how is that not GA? 09:15:33 splitting cards into piles uses "tournament selection"? 09:15:54 yeah... it was microbial GA but the crossover was more of a mutation than a crossover 09:16:03 *_3b* wonders why an exact solution is expected after 6000 iterations 09:16:10 oh i was tinkering with that 09:16:12 lol 09:16:16 to see if it would run better 09:16:19 or more precise 09:17:09 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 09:17:55 the population size was originally 80 too 09:18:51 Edisto: from what I know about programming, splitting stuff into parts consists of 3 things: 1) the stuff to split, 2) a way to determine how to split (i.e., in your case, which pile each items goes to), and 3) the actual splitting (i.e., putting the items in the piles they belong to) 09:18:52 -!- wliao [~wliao@123.116.132.227] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:19:31 <_3b> doesn't really seem like a good problem for GA, looks more like a dynamic programming task 09:19:33 -!- MoALTz [~no@92.8.244.147] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:19:33 Edisto: so is it point 2 or point 3 you're having problems with? 09:19:48 yes... then the GA comes in where you have to rearrange the cards to add up to the pile number 09:20:24 so once i actually run the GA it solves 3 perfect but the other 2 are off by like 1 or 2 09:20:25 *_3b* 's random guess would be that fix-error adds bias that causes problems 09:21:19 <_3b> can you rearrange the remaining #s not used by the 'perfect' 3 to get the remaining 2 goals? 09:21:46 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@116.21.222.19] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:21:54 hmmm... possibly... i was using that to correct anything that was done by the crossover where piles were to be uneven because it would crossover too many of 1 pile or not enough 09:23:14 adu [~ajr@softbank220043138128.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 09:23:34 yeah... the problem is its suppose to be exact numbers... so the first 3 messes it up in a way i guess because it doesn't use the correct numbers to solve the latter 09:23:41 so for instance 09:24:13 instead of being 1 3 6 its spuposed to be 2 3 5 09:24:34 <_3b> for that matter, is there even more than 1 valid solution? 09:24:51 i guess not just 1 valid solution... 09:25:01 for the numbers i was creating 09:25:05 or testing 09:25:25 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 09:26:06 *_3b* would say find a better task for GA 09:26:50 <_3b> as it is, it seems like you just inefficiently pick random solutions and hope to get the right answer 09:26:54 IIRC, GAs aren't guaranteed to optimize for the global maximum. you shouldn't be surprised if you don't get "perfect" results. 09:26:55 lol indeed I guess the error is coming from it found a solution so why change since the fitness is lower than any other already 09:27:02 <_3b> (and don't even make an attempt to not pick the same wrong answer twice) 09:27:32 also, if you could use more punctuation, that would really help me parse your sentences. :) 09:27:44 lol 09:27:52 i'll do that. 09:28:33 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.34.250.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:28:40 -!- cheezus [~Adium@76-10-163-32.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:28:46 thanks guys you helped alot 09:29:02 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:29:12 good morning 09:29:49 -!- Jacke [jacke@valhalla.bofh.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:30:21 c_arenz [~arenz@dialin-145-254-253-090.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:30:21 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:30:34 morning 09:30:50 tcr [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 09:30:59 Edisto: I think everyone is wondering why you're using a GA when you could use an analytical method. are you just trying to learn about them? 09:31:24 -!- tcr [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has left #lisp 09:31:25 and, also, why you've brought your question to #lisp. :) 09:33:14 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-182-139.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:34:19 Jacke [jacke@valhalla.bofh.org] has joined #lisp 09:34:52 well, i'm using a GA because we're learning about them. Not only that, it would be quicker being that i'm going to expand to like 10 piles of 3 later 09:35:06 and again the c++ channel doesn't know abotu GA's =D 09:35:54 it might be worth focusing on a problem more suited to GAs. 09:35:56 i was there waiting on a miracle for like 4 days. and soon as someone said they knew a bit when i asked my question they got real quiet 09:36:47 -!- myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:36:56 myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:37:26 why don't you approach your lecturer? 09:38:03 lol he gave me this problem =D 09:38:23 <_3b> to solve with GA specifically? 09:38:26 show him your progress and explain that you are struggling. 09:38:46 it's his job to help you understand. 09:38:51 gaidal [~gaidal@116.21.230.32] has joined #lisp 09:39:27 yeah, the original problem was to make 10 cards split to 2 piles. The first pile added to 36 and the second multiplied to 360. 09:40:10 Aiwass [~Aiwass4@188.26.203.226] has joined #lisp 09:40:12 so i expanded it with 15 to 5 piles and the first 3 add and the rest multiply but chose to use addition to simplify it first 09:40:30 *_3b* doesn't see how it simplifies it 09:40:33 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 09:40:39 okay, so you basically want to fit the cards (which have values) into piles (which have a maximum sum) in an optimal way. 09:40:50 <_3b> zfx: exact sum 09:41:14 _3b: not assuming that there is a guaranteed perfect solution :) 09:41:19 *_3b* still thinks it is a dynamic programming problem, not a GA problem 09:41:26 it sounds quite like the bin packing problem to me. 09:41:51 <_3b> zfx: i think it /is/ assuming that, which seems like a pretty silly problem to me 09:41:52 anyway, I think you should approach your lecturer or a TA, and explain your progress. 09:42:33 _3b: possibly, but I think "your lecturer has given you an idiotic problem" is probably not terribly helpful to Edisto. :) 09:42:42 (even if it is true) 09:43:04 <_3b> right, but we aren't the ones being paid to be useful :) 09:43:15 nod, hence my final advice. 09:43:20 lol 09:43:30 Liera` [~user@113.172.49.252] has joined #lisp 09:44:20 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 09:44:26 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:44:45 *_3b* thought GA was supposed to evolve code to solve the problem, not evolve the solution directly though (assuming i'm understanding the code at all, which i probably am not) 09:44:56 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 09:45:02 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:45:16 GA is generally not guaranteed to give you an optimal solution to the problem. 09:45:31 -!- Liera [~user@123.21.161.118] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:45:36 i kinda see now the original problem was based on optimal. It was doing a random selection of 2 populations and selecting a winner and loser and then having hte probability to replace teh genes of the loser. 09:47:19 rudi [~rudi@1x-193-157-204-242.uio.no] has joined #lisp 09:49:14 but when i ran it... it only was able to get the correct number like 4 times with never repeating because it was so random. 09:49:23 damn that was a long lag spike 09:49:30 Yeah, life is so random! 09:49:40 What do you expect when you start simulating life? 09:49:52 lol 09:50:06 -!- sacho [~sacho@46.10.16.35] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 09:50:07 any of you guys develop games with lisp? 09:50:21 it happens. 09:50:52 *_3b* points at #lispgames 09:51:15 so mostly im guessing biology oriented computer programmers or in the real science field right 09:51:36 *_3b* has no idea if it is right that you are guessing that 09:51:47 lol 09:52:22 i was kinda wondering about using lisp past this class is why im asking 09:53:05 <_3b> haven't heard much about non-bio sciency stuff, and only a few doing bio... airline reservation stuff, lisp implementations, web stuff seem like popular tasks here 09:53:05 i couldn't really find a use for it after, unless I go into a field where i need to be able to manipulate data like dna or something 09:53:18 ahh... 09:53:48 web stuff eh? server side im guessing or do they have a lisp client side package? 09:53:57 <_3b> a few from a telecom startup, some CS academic types, etc 09:54:39 ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 09:54:41 <_3b> mostly server side, some people write client-side code in a lisp dialect (parenscript) and translate that to js 09:55:12 yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 09:55:50 -!- benny [~benny@i577A2DA7.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:56:46 total newb question here: can you get ASDF to load a system, but not compile it? 09:57:11 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@dialin-145-254-253-090.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:57:16 <_3b> some implementations compile things as they are loaded 09:57:17 groovy. i could see where it would be benficial for airlines maybe i will use it if i do some engineering or data driven work 09:57:31 _3b: using SBCL here. 09:57:39 zfx: (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-source-op 'system) 09:57:43 <_3b> sbcl compiles as it loads by default 09:57:53 Xach: thanks very much. 09:57:56 zfx: why do you want to do that? 09:58:03 _3b: but it doesn't write fasl files anywhere by default 09:58:05 ehu [~ehuels@109.35.189.147] has joined #lisp 09:58:10 Xach: I'm still learning and trying to explore macro behaviour pre and post compilation. 09:58:16 <_3b> ah, true, i guess that might make some difference 09:59:18 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 09:59:26 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:04:00 -!- QinGW [~wangqingw@60.247.26.3] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:07:00 -!- bjobae [4db05548@gateway/web/freenode/ip.77.176.85.72] has left #lisp 10:07:36 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 10:09:31 dmiles_akf [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 10:12:17 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:12:39 tcr [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 10:16:12 arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 10:16:56 orivej [~orivej@rk4015.ws.pu.ru] has joined #lisp 10:17:55 . 10:18:15 sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:18:32 seejay [~seejay@unaffiliated/seejay] has joined #lisp 10:20:52 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.35.189.147] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:22:15 -!- Aiwass [~Aiwass4@188.26.203.226] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:23:05 Aiwass [~Aiwass4@188.26.203.226] has joined #lisp 10:24:15 ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 10:26:03 youguy [~youguy@11.Red-193-152-132.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:32:16 Athas` [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 10:32:25 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 10:32:36 -!- longfin [~longfin@124.198.53.194] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:33:38 -!- youguy [~youguy@11.Red-193-152-132.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:33:58 youguy [~youguy@1.Red-79-158-63.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:35:16 Kleif [~Kleif@202.Red-81-37-78.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:39:04 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:40:38 tfb [~tfb@94.197.42.76.threembb.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:41:25 -!- tfb [~tfb@94.197.42.76.threembb.co.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 10:42:19 zfx: you may try clisp, which includes an interpreter and a compiler. (sbcl does too, but the interpreter is not active by default, you may consult the sbcl manual). 10:42:41 -!- Athas` is now known as Athas 10:42:48 zfx: IIRC, clhs *macroexpand-hook* has a good example of how to use it to trace macro expansions. 10:44:04 -!- youguy [~youguy@1.Red-79-158-63.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 10:44:53 -!- Kleif [~Kleif@202.Red-81-37-78.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:45:21 -!- skeptical_p [~rononovsk@bzq-79-181-184-222.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:48:27 WoW........ after tinkering with the thing come to find out something is going on with the mutation where if the fix is not on the outside even though its supposedly swapping and not mutating a number it actually works 10:49:31 what in the world.... if i swap 2 numbers how does it keep one number the same and just replace the value of the other.... when clearly the code is showing a swap 10:50:01 Edisto: are you modifying literal data? 10:50:35 yes 10:50:51 -!- orivej [~orivej@rk4015.ws.pu.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:51:00 Then why are you surprized if dragons get out of you nose? 10:51:23 Kenjin [~josesanto@83.240.225.146] has joined #lisp 10:51:42 perhaps he's just running into the delete bug 10:51:57 instead of (modify some-variable), do (setf some-variable (modify some-variable)) 10:55:01 orivej [~orivej@rk4015.ws.pu.ru] has joined #lisp 10:55:05 lol 10:55:16 *_3b* suspects it is still c++ code, so completely different set of possible bug causes 10:55:44 <_3b> 'still c++ code' being a particularly nasty bug, which really should be fixed at some point 10:57:16 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:57:27 *pjb* is sure that it's still C++ code, there's no humanly way to have read PAIP and rewritten it in Lisp in the elapsed time. 10:57:46 However, this is #lisp, so we will abound to CLHS and answer in the context of Lisp. 10:57:48 skeptical_p [~rononovsk@bzq-109-65-185-85.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 10:57:59 Edisto: lisppaste? 10:58:15 (set-dispatch-macro-character #\# #\i 'read-include nil) 10:58:38 <_3b> well, seems like 'help find a bug in this c++ code' would be a reasonable reason to point back to ##cwhatever, even if they don't know about GAs :) 10:58:54 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 10:59:14 notsonerdysunny [~chatzilla@121.243.182.185] has joined #lisp 10:59:53 thanks a mil man 11:01:10 bhyde [~bhyde@c-66-30-201-212.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:01:12 i got it working i mixed the children and gene array ^.^ but since they both look like arrays i didn't pay attention 11:01:26 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 11:01:26 -!- dmiles_akf [~dmiles@75-175-107-228.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:03:17 That can be a good argument for wrapping things with instances. 11:03:46 *_3b* would have used it as an argument for abstracting out a 'swap' operation instead of doing it by hand 11:06:22 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:09:30 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-146-88.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 11:10:32 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:10:50 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 11:13:14 -!- orivej [~orivej@rk4015.ws.pu.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:14:31 -!- lifeng [~lifeng@155.69.43.70] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:15:10 -!- Edisto [~IceChat7@c-67-169-114-235.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot.] 11:15:40 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 11:15:59 Yuuhi [benni@p5483C936.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:16:35 MoALTz [~no@92.8.227.230] has joined #lisp 11:16:43 SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] 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[~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:29:24 bozhidar [~user@212.50.14.187] has joined #lisp 14:30:27 hi, everyone 14:30:48 longfin [~longfin@211.187.37.46] has joined #lisp 14:31:33 I've been thinking these past few days about infinite sequences and I've been wondering of alternative implementation scenarios 14:31:55 for instance if you want the prime numbers as an infinite sequence 14:32:23 how would you do it in common lisp without using clazy or some custom made lazy macro 14:32:44 I want to convert a string into a floating point number, but don't want to generate any uncaught conditions. There doesn't seem to be a floating point equivalent to PARSE-INTEGER. 14:33:11 reb: there's a parse-number.lisp file floating around 14:33:19 minion: tell reb about parse-number 14:33:20 reb: have a look at parse-number: parse-number accepts an arbitrary string and attempt to parse it into one of the standard Common Lisp number types, if possible, or else it signals an error of type invalid-number. http://www.cliki.net/parse-number 14:34:17 tcr/fe[nl]ix: Thanks very much. I'll take a look at it. 14:34:39 bozhidar: LAMBDA does what you want 14:35:10 dlowe: what do you mean by that? 14:35:22 My initial approach was to write a small function to verify that a string contains a float ... then call READ-FROM-STRING if it contains no junk. 14:35:28 superflit [~superflit@72.42.68.162] has joined #lisp 14:35:48 bozhidar: (defun prime-number-generator () (let ((my-data-structures)) (lambda () (return prime)))) 14:36:22 bozhidar: (let ((generator (prime-number-generator))) (list (funcall generator) (funcall generator) (funcall generator))) 17:00:04 ccl-logbot [~ccl-logbo@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 17:00:04 17:00:04 -!- names: ccl-logbot gko kejsaren_ keyvan pnq Adamant Euthydemus` homie Amadiro kpreid mishoo daniel_ jewel tsuru pvaneynd beach danieljones McMAGIC-- morphling Spion_ Bronsa TheRealLongshot kejsaren Boriskr seangrove srolls juniorroy mrSpec milanj X-02 gffa Guest15211 tronador_ jimmy1980 _akimbo borkaman` madsenz tauntaun schoppenhauer LiamH msmith1 rme Patzy xan_ Kenjin iwillig dlowe rmarianski urandom__ dlila blackwol` longfin cfy Yuuhi pdelgallego cmatei Glert 17:00:04 -!- names: jweiss Jasko tritchey pds madnificent bozhidar myu2 HET2 silenius mathrick Tristam benny leo2007 stassats ezakimak am0c mnau insomniaSalt lonstein varjag levi` mdavadriansmith sigjuice cipher quasisane nome` BlankVerse splittist ltriant rbancroft omgz0r SpitfireWP pattern Phoodus chxane silentbicycle realitygrill ace4016 theBlackDragon AntiSpamMeta em qsun guaqua Adrinael ramus Fade deepfire jsnell faulevel fe[nl]ix froggey cods jabirali npoektop _dev0_ 17:00:04 -!- names: dcrawford prip churib Legooolas BrianRice ianmcorvidae meingbg nyef |3b| Bucciarati larva_ eno schmrkc Dodek billitch ineiros yan_ trigen kencausey sykopomp pchrist slyrus rtoym basho___ Onyxyte lemoinem amb007 Deltafire kleppari cmm The_Fellow1 abeaumont rdd rononovski_ aidalgol hramrach_ dRbiG katesmith bobbysmith007 xinming_ Fullma Xantoz quotemstr argiopeweb vsync kiuma Zeiris Ralith fihi09 joshe gnooth DrForr pp206 Krystof clog cYmen huehnts 17:00:04 -!- names: rsynnott ilmari carbocal` [df] peddie arbscht Buganini CrazyEddy s0ber ``Erik krappie__ hugod Yamazaki-kun tvaalen tenawa rien vert2 JuanDaugherty |nix|` ntd Nshag billstclair setmeaway chr` mcguitan83 guther timjstewart Odin- araujo sonnym froydnj tychoish seejay blitz_` eli sid3k pen marienz foom bfein rabite tomaw loke cnl kanru rootzlevel xristos CallToPower oconnore derrotebaron Posterdati algorist tty234 rvncerr snorble OliverUv egn kephas z0d 17:00:05 -!- names: mephistophocles Jacke naryl qebab mon_key easyE bzzbzz Pepe_ danlentz Quadrescence pavlvs johanbev Jabberwockey djinni` Xach incandenza mal__ lianj Kovensky Khisanth mpereira specbot colazero oGMo scode cpach thijso strlen _8david Obfuscate PissedNumlock aoh df_aldur ASau` lnostdal Ginei_Morioka jayne zakwilson albino rotty cibs antifuchs Tordek dostoyevsky ve luis shachaf Taggnostr2 p_l|backup johs derrida hohum minion lisppaste joast cpt_nemo clop nuba 17:00:05 -!- names: _2x2l srcerer zbigniew euphidime twem2 museun freiksenet elliottcable tessier herbie_ Zhivago micro _3b PuffTheMagic housel pok_ mgr erk kloeri ejohnson nullman` mtd antoszka acieroid ozzloy simontwo_ setheus hyko phadthai andreer akkartik Aisling mornfall fds jeekl cmbntr jamief ecraven galdor j_king pkhuong jrockway krl fmu felipe zfx yahooooo adeht timchen1` k9quaint koollman Borbus tic cataska 17:00:41 -!- cpach [~carl@h167n3-sde-a31.ias.bredband.telia.com] has quit [Quit: reboot] 17:00:51 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:00:58 pjb [~t@176.Red-81-43-149.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:01:22 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:01:55 cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.139.95.133] has joined #lisp 17:02:33 where can i get sbcl 1.0.46.17 17:02:39 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-20-53.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 17:02:42 from CVS or git. 17:03:21 You'll have to build it yourself; the easiest way is to use a prebuilt binary package of an earlier SBCL. 17:04:21 MoALTz [~no@92.18.84.193] has joined #lisp 17:04:34 is there a way to update my already installed sbcl 17:04:59 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:04:59 muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 17:05:18 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:05:34 Why .46.17 in particular? 17:05:35 tcr [~tcr@100.Red-88-6-12.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:06:16 well my weblocks apps don't run with my current one 17:06:30 unless i trace weblocks-dirty 17:06:33 which is dumb 17:06:45 46.17 seems to have fixed that 17:07:04 And you'd rather run that than .46.44, which is the current release-candidate? 17:07:37 i'll run whichever has that fixed 17:07:39 (And, honestly, if .46.44 doesn't work for you but .46.17 does, we'd really like to hear about it.) 17:08:04 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:08:12 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has quit [Quit: tronador_] 17:09:21 I just want to know how can i update it 17:10:27 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.236.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:10:39 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 17:11:09 Check out the source from cvs or git, build the source using your existing SBCL, uninstall your existing (old) SBCL, install the new SBCL. In theory, at least. 17:11:23 -!- longfin [~longfin@211.187.37.46] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:11:38 -!- blackwol` [~blackwolf@ool-45763541.dyn.optonline.net] has left #lisp 17:12:30 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 17:12:36 dabd [~dabd@194.210.231.31] has joined #lisp 17:14:20 blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-45763541.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 17:16:37 -!- pjb [~t@176.Red-81-43-149.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:16:40 clhs aref 17:16:41 sabalaba [~sabalaba@173-10-44-57-Michigan.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 17:16:41 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_aref.htm 17:17:29 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 17:22:08 -!- silenius [~silenus@p4FC2315D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:22:41 -!- mnau [~xc344@116.253.154.207] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:23:43 nyef annotated #120857 "More on event handling" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/120857#1 17:23:53 slyrus, beach: Ping? 17:26:17 Evious [~n_a@s64-180-62-209.bc.hsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 17:26:23 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-188-100.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:28:40 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-176-171.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:30:36 SidH__ [~SidH_@203.101.61.10] has joined #lisp 17:30:43 any elephant users here? 17:31:05 does bdb backend come as a separate install? 17:31:13 -!- gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [] 17:32:49 nyef: I'm here. 17:34:43 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-188-100.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:36:03 spilman [~spilman@ARennes-552-1-109-10.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:37:37 -!- Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: omghaahhahaohwow] 17:37:38 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-094-084.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 17:38:09 mnau [~xc344@116.253.154.207] has joined #lisp 17:39:28 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-188-100.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:40:12 psilord [~psilord@ppp-70-226-170-236.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 17:40:16 -!- psilord [~psilord@ppp-70-226-170-236.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has left #lisp 17:40:24 nyef: What does it mean for open-window-stream to "support" accept? 17:40:50 -!- msmith1 [~msmit297@adsl-190-140-153.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:41:07 beach: You can call ACCEPT on a stream returned from OPEN-WINDOW-STREAM. 17:41:22 OK. 17:41:31 ... can't you? 17:41:43 Hrm. 17:42:11 I think you are right. 17:43:26 Right, it's an extended-input-stream, and part of the accept machinery is defined to be specialized on standard-extended-input-stream. 17:44:10 Quadrescence [~Quad@c-24-131-149-41.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:44:13 -!- Quadrescence [~Quad@c-24-131-149-41.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 17:44:13 Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 17:44:56 rillo2 [~user@iqool.de] has joined #lisp 17:45:23 So, the argument boils down to a single thread supporting as many "toplevel" windows as it wants, provided that they share event queues, but only one can handle stream input at any given time. 17:47:07 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-094-084.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:47:36 nyef: I see, yes. I'll read it through a few more times. 17:47:43 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-094-084.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 17:47:46 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:48:29 -!- dabd [~dabd@194.210.231.31] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 17:48:53 I wrote a macro "foo" that I run as (foo (a b c d)), and it transforms (a b c d) to something else. Excellent! If I understand correctly, that's because foo receives the unevaluated form of (a b c d), or '(a b c d)... However, I need to modify it to take input from the -output- of a function or macro. But doing (defun gen () '(a b c d)) then calling (foo (gen)) doesn't work :'( Why? 17:49:56 What's the order of evaluation? Is foo receiving '(gen) as the input, or is gen being evaluated first and '(a b c d) is being received? 17:50:00 Evious: it's still receiving the unevaluated form passed to it 17:50:08 Evious: you expected something different? 17:50:26 Yeah, I thought it would evaluate the inner function or macro first. 17:50:28 Sorry, I'm new :p 17:51:05 Evious: should probably stay away from macros for a while, then :) 17:51:19 -!- SidH__ [~SidH_@203.101.61.10] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 3.6.16/20110319135224]] 17:51:38 -!- tauntaun [~icarus@64.134.102.125] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 17:51:45 they're easy to understand once you have a few weeks experience with the rest of lisp 17:52:25 dlowe, no way :p This piece of code, if it works, will untie a nasty knot in my Erlang project. 17:52:37 nowhere_man [pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-38-246.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:52:45 Evious: it has to be a macro? 17:52:46 *nyef* always found them easy to understand, but that's probably due to overuse of C preprocessor macros "back in the day". 17:53:16 ...Yes. I'm expanding a simple DSL at compile time, that defines a low level interface to a database. 17:53:23 (That, and having written C code generators in C.) 17:53:24 nyef: I think it's what Xach was mentioning in his blog about people conceptualizing the language as text 17:53:35 Quite possibly, yeah. 17:53:39 The macro will expand into 1. encoder function 2. type annotations, that Erlang will later use. It's quite lovely. 17:53:53 Evious: or would be if it worked :D 17:54:21 Evious: ok, fine. The macro takes a piece of lisp code and returns a piece of lisp code, right? 17:54:49 Yes. And macros are evaluated before functions, but what about macro-macro order of evaluation? (foo (bar)) if both foo and bar are macros? 17:54:59 Evious: outer is expanded first. 17:55:10 An outer macro is /always/ expanded first. 17:55:15 Interesting. 17:55:27 (Since it can change the inner forms arbitrarily.) 17:55:35 I was about to ask why, thank you :) 17:55:47 -!- kephas [pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-112-16.w90-13.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:56:02 tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has joined #lisp 17:56:50 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.180.252] has quit [Quit: Offline] 17:56:52 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:57:47 I'm having trouble running SBCL from gdb on Linux. I believe I've done the right signal passthough magic. I see memory faults, accesses to address #x40200066, (pc=0x100058ba6d, sp=0x7ffff6d59bb0), which seems to be Lisp code. 17:57:53 -!- Guest15211 is now known as reb 17:58:03 hey nyef, i'm not really around, but I'll try to follow the conversation later 17:58:18 It there a way to map an address to a Lisp function name? 17:58:43 ... in order to figure out which bit of Lisp is generating the faults? 17:58:54 -!- splittist [~splittist@245-160.3-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: splittist] 17:59:05 -!- mnau [~xc344@116.253.154.207] has quit [] 17:59:11 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:59:46 reb: It's possible, but the easy way is if you're running a cold-sbcl.core prior to the first GC. 17:59:55 In GDB I'm doing "handle noprint nostop" on signals SIGUSR1, SIGSEGV, SIGTRAP. 17:59:57 (Since then you just use the cold-sbcl.map.) 18:00:15 slyrus: That's fair. I was mostly just pinging to alert you to the paste annotation. 18:00:30 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has quit [Client Quit] 18:01:11 standard-extended ... talk about a lousy name 18:01:26 nyef: Interesting. How do I run the cold core? src/runtime/sbcl corename ? 18:01:40 reb: --core output/cold-sbcl.core 18:02:02 reb: But it's a rather basic environment, doesn't even have CLOS. 18:02:05 I'm basically trying to use macros to expand one form definition, into multiple top-level functions. What's the standard approach to doing that? Should I define the form as a function, or another macro, or what? 18:02:51 Evious: The standard approach is to expand to a PROGN form with the desired top-level function definitions inside. 18:03:20 That is, to have a macro that expands to such a progn form. 18:03:30 *Evious* goes googling. 18:04:47 -!- mcguitan83 [~user@negroni.enst.fr] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:04:53 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 18:05:36 nyef: Looks like my memory is in SB!KERNEL:%CLOSURE-VALUES 18:06:00 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:06:28 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.180.252] has joined #lisp 18:07:12 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:07:27 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:07:28 So a top-level element like (progn (defun f ((x) x)) (defun g ((x) x)) should define f and g? 18:09:08 Evious: yes, forms within a top-level progn are also considered top-level 18:10:08 -!- sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:10:16 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:10:23 Oh my god this is the best 18:10:39 :q 18:11:01 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:15:04 tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has joined #lisp 18:17:18 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-094-084.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:19:17 dkasak [~dkasak@dh207-100-181.xnet.hr] has joined #lisp 18:19:41 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:19:50 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:19:54 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 18:22:59 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.180.252] has quit [Quit: Offline] 18:23:44 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:23:51 -!- xan_ [~xan@155.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:24:41 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 18:26:06 xan_ [~xan@155.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 18:26:06 Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-54-177-186.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:26:06 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-54-177-186.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 18:26:06 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 18:28:10 oudeis [~oudeis@109.253.63.112] has joined #lisp 18:29:49 TDT [~user@74.115.254.25] has joined #lisp 18:31:16 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has quit [Quit: tronador_] 18:31:53 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-094-084.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 18:33:06 Hey all. getting some code pasted - but some background. I'm taking a 300-ish meg text file, doing some remapping, then outputting to a file. The issue I'm running into is it'll get so far, then will print out then stall a bit. The stalling, once I interrupt it, talks about refilling the input buffer. I've run into this issue in the past, but unsure..what does that mean, and is there a better way to write what I'm doing to prevent 18:33:06 the error? 18:33:12 TDT pasted "Issues with loop and read" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/120879 18:35:13 It seems to be getting further now, was stalling out at 30megs written. I also found, annoyingly so, the largest text file in sbcl seems to be 2 gigs. 18:35:46 There we go, died again at 37 megs. 18:36:35 systemaddict [~anonymous@208.74.177.139.static.etheric.net] has joined #lisp 18:36:39 die in what way? 18:36:47 Well, sorry not died, stalled. 18:38:12 TDT: the cleanup-fun means it's the cleanup clauses in an UWP in refill-input-buffer 18:38:50 don't have the sbcl source near but you might want to look into the source :-) 18:39:53 I may do that - first going to upgrade sbcl, and see if that's an issue 18:40:06 I was hoping it was just something stupid I was doing in code. 18:40:23 tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has joined #lisp 18:42:17 (object (is-a Person) (OBJECT ?PersonObject2) (hasName ?Person2) (hasMadePurchase $? ?Purch2 $?)) <--- why some of the lisp-related expert shells couldn't make a more normal syntax for rules?? >_> 18:43:25 p_l|backup: Seems perfectly readable to me, although I think it needs more "?"s 18:44:04 -!- tcr [~tcr@100.Red-88-6-12.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:44:31 it binds PersonObject2 based on the match rule, it seems 18:44:50 of course, it will become completely unreadable once you add the necessary URIs to work with Protege 18:45:47 MoALTz_ [~no@92.9.68.70] has joined #lisp 18:46:23 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:47:30 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host102-184-dynamic.6-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:47:44 enthymeme [~kraken@adsl-76-242-89-167.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:47:46 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-188-100.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:47:52 -!- MoALTz [~no@92.18.84.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:49:12 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-112-241.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 18:50:49 omgz0r_ [~mattl0ck@wi-secure-5184.cc.umanitoba.ca] has joined #lisp 18:50:55 -!- omgz0r_ [~mattl0ck@wi-secure-5184.cc.umanitoba.ca] has left #lisp 18:51:22 MoALTz [~no@92.8.229.177] has joined #lisp 18:52:36 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@92.9.68.70] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:58:16 -!- cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.139.95.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:58:47 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 19:00:02 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-188-100.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:02:02 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@109.253.63.112] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 19:04:03 EarlGray [~dmytrish@inherent.puzzler.volia.net] has joined #lisp 19:04:21 -!- borkaman` [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:06:46 l4ndfo [~l4ndfo@S0106001cf0520ea3.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:11:39 -!- X-02 [~kohei@pon036-189.kcn.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:12:19 oudeis [~oudeis@109.253.63.112] has joined #lisp 19:13:52 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-33-41-84.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: When there's nothing left to burn you have to set yourself on fire.] 19:21:34 emporas [~emporas@athedsl-169325.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 19:22:02 msponge [~msponge@149-169-172-195.nat.asu.edu] has joined #lisp 19:22:23 -!- xan_ [~xan@155.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:22:33 relcomp [~chatzilla@nat.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has joined #lisp 19:22:42 ivan4th [~ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has joined #lisp 19:24:18 weird, well my issue doesn't appear to be a version issue 19:24:27 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-193-241-28.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:24:36 -!- relcomp [~chatzilla@nat.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has quit [Client Quit] 19:26:01 Hello Lispers! 19:26:15 TDT: can you provide the file? 19:27:29 I'm back with more over complications... (: 19:27:32 snearch [~snearch@f053009210.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:28:03 Is it possible to define a type for lists of lenth N? 19:28:52 stassats: http://paste.lisp.org/display/120879 19:29:17 mon_key: no 19:30:05 mon_key: lists are untyped, though you *could* make a deftype that would check for it. Just don't expect poor implementation to actually be able to check for it 19:30:15 TDT: that doesn't look like 37 megabytes at all 19:30:17 now, if you have a known set length, you could try with an array 19:30:34 mattrepl [~mattrepl@204.14.152.118] has joined #lisp 19:30:38 tfb_ [~tfb@92.41.36.214.threembb.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:30:49 stassats: oh you mean the file itself. Honestly, no I can't. It's genomic data, not sure the privacy requirements on this data so it's best me not to share it 19:31:00 p_l|backup: a dynamic length e.g. (deftype list-o-len (&optional len) {...} 19:31:15 TDT: well, you'd better reduce your test-case in some way 19:32:06 p_l|backup: FWIW I got so far as using &aux with a closure over a length arg and then symbol-macrolet'ing the closure which doesn't work :) 19:32:21 adobriyan [~ad@vulture-nat-37.telecom.by] has joined #lisp 19:32:36 -!- tfb_ is now known as tfb 19:33:19 p_l|backup: Ah. so make an array of the list and then check it? 19:35:14 mon_key: make an array of the size you want and use array instead of list 19:35:27 I think the lesson needs to be drilled in that if you don't want precisely the behavior of a list, you should use an array 19:36:03 nyef: amazingly enough, SBCL head builds fine on that g4 with some crazy old 0.9.x.y I had lying around 19:36:11 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@109.253.63.112] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 19:36:30 stassats: I recall having this same issue on large files..but I should spend some time and try to really debug this issue. I'm looking into (force-output t), which from some reading may help the situation. 19:39:03 t? 19:39:22 you don't seem to be using standard-output 19:40:15 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@adsl-76-234-169-176.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:40:47 mon_key: (deftype list-of-len (&optional n) (if (zerop n) 'null `(cons t (list-of-len ,(1- n))))) ? 19:40:53 reading the documentation yet, but good catch. I somehow recall having to use this before. 19:41:34 oudeis [~oudeis@109.253.63.112] has joined #lisp 19:41:53 force-output takes a stream designator, and T is a designator for standard-output (in this case) 19:42:08 (well, for *terminal-io*, but it'll boil down to *standard-output*) 19:42:14 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:43:06 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:43:12 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.236.181] has joined #lisp 19:43:32 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.194.55] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:43:32 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 19:43:58 Ah ok, thanks., 19:47:23 stassats: Thanks. That does the trick. 19:47:31 which trick? 19:47:43 tauntaun [~icarus@ool-457c37c3.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 19:47:58 the stack blowing trick :) 19:48:06 (typep '(1 . 1) '(list-of-len -1)) 19:48:14 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:48:26 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 19:48:36 fantazo [~fantazo@178-191-166-136.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 19:50:57 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5B0C2938.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:53:09 jrope [~androirc@37.sub-174-253-192.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 19:54:21 i hope you understand the implications of using such type definition 19:54:28 (in short: don't use it) 19:54:39 stassats: Yes. Thank you for sharing it none the less ;) 19:56:24 replcated [~user@68.171.143.254] has joined #lisp 19:58:13 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 20:01:28 kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-80-9.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 20:02:05 jokoon [~eio@feu30-1-82-242-58-229.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 20:02:38 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 20:05:24 carlocci [~nes@93.37.213.63] has joined #lisp 20:08:20 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:09:08 -!- jrope [~androirc@37.sub-174-253-192.myvzw.com] has quit [Quit: Bye] 20:10:32 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-25.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:11:33 mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has joined #lisp 20:11:33 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has quit [Changing host] 20:11:33 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 20:15:26 Is there a portable implementation of read-write locks for Common Lisp? 20:16:27 -!- rononovski_ [~rononovsk@109.64.185.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:17:39 jet_efyhw [~jet_efyhw@c-75-72-244-165.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:19:48 -!- jokoon [~eio@feu30-1-82-242-58-229.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:21:50 minion: bordeaux-threads? 20:21:51 bordeaux-threads: Bordeaux-Threads lets you write multi-threaded applications in a portable way. http://www.cliki.net/bordeaux-threads 20:22:23 gabnet [~gabnet@136.63.193-77.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 20:22:37 <_8david> erm, bxthreads has read/write locks? 20:22:47 i don't know 20:23:16 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@178-191-166-136.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:23:16 <_8david> I don't recall any such thing in there. It would be implementable on top of it, of course. 20:25:56 <_8david> A higher-level threading abstraction library collecting this sort of thing would be pretty nice. 20:26:56 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-139-126.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:26:57 <_8david> Little things like read/write locks. And someone mentioned a Franz-style GATE implementation recently. sb-concurrency is also needlessly SBCL-specific; IIRC there's a similar portable library out there somewhere that only assumes a CAS abstraction. 20:27:33 the lispworks mp api is said to be pretty great; I believe we're busy picking the best raisins from it right now (: 20:28:32 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-234-169-176.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:28:32 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 20:28:52 glidesurfer [~rosario@77-64-171-36.dynamic.primacom.net] has joined #lisp 20:28:57 stassats: Ok, I'll use simple lock for now. 20:29:26 -!- tauntaun [~icarus@ool-457c37c3.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:30:14 antifuchs: I heard that the 6.0 mp api is th most complete and full-featured one among CL implementations, exposing both high-level mailboxes, as well as all low-level primitives necessary to build other algorithms... 20:30:18 <_8david> antifuchs: really? looks pretty basic to me. 20:30:40 <_8david> oh, wait. I didn't check 6.0 specifically. 20:30:44 I heard the same thing (: 20:31:04 Pascal Constanza was praising it pretty heavily a while back on pro@ 20:31:42 after reading a bit about modern mp constructs and skimming the LW docs I'd be willing to agree, though I'll need a more detailed look 20:32:27 <_8david> OK, definitely richer than some others. 20:33:29 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:35:15 Bronsa [~brace@host102-184-dynamic.6-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 20:36:43 naryl: what sort of workload are you looking at? 20:37:25 pkhuong: I was just asking :) 20:37:44 The workload is a read request in a few minutes and a write request in a few days. 20:38:06 Can qviklishp work with many lisps in parallel? 20:39:13 I would have pointed to some semi-portable spin-read-write-lock code, but clearly that's inappropriate. 20:39:50 _8david: read/write locks aren't as important as atomic operations, non-caching read/write, and good algorithms on top of those... 20:41:13 Quadrescence: If you mean quicklisp, yes. 20:41:19 fantazo [~fantazo@178-191-166-136.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 20:41:29 Yes I do 20:41:43 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@109.253.63.112] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:42:08 oudeis [~oudeis@109.253.63.112] has joined #lisp 20:43:32 p_l|home [~pl@213.5.11.129] has joined #lisp 20:45:15 -!- Phoodus [~foo@ip68-231-47-70.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:45:52 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 20:46:24 milkpost [~milkpost@75-175-207-75.cdrr.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:47:22 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@83.240.225.146] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 20:48:48 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:52:26 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:53:06 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@75-175-207-75.cdrr.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 20:54:07 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:56:30 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756893.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:59:31 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@109.253.63.112] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 21:00:28 mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has joined #lisp 21:00:28 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has quit [Changing host] 21:00:28 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 21:01:00 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d013d98.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 21:01:06 -!- seangrove [~user@c-98-234-242-172.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:02:17 Soulman1 [~knute@250.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 21:02:41 hi 21:04:06 . 21:07:00 -!- glidesurfer [~rosario@77-64-171-36.dynamic.primacom.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:08:01 tauntaun [~icarus@64.134.102.125] has joined #lisp 21:08:54 -!- p_l|home [~pl@213.5.11.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:10:00 p_l|home [~pl@213.5.11.129] has joined #lisp 21:10:02 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:11:05 -!- emporas [~emporas@athedsl-169325.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:11:28 emporas [~emporas@athedsl-169325.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 21:11:44 -!- Fullma [~fullma@ram94-2-82-66-69-246.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:12:44 MrMC [~MrMC@91-65-179-6-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 21:12:45 xan_ [~xan@156.Red-83-35-102.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:12:59 hello 21:13:08 lispers 21:14:42 hello 21:15:14 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:16:32 I am trying to learn lisp 21:16:50 that's great 21:17:02 but those parenthesis 21:17:21 you'll learn to skim over them (: 21:17:25 pavlvs327 [pavlvs@231.56.143.24.cm.sunflower.com] has joined #lisp 21:17:38 the textual representation of source code vanishes once you know how it looks as data 21:17:48 no worse than semicolons, braces ,brackets, etc 21:18:02 I kind of parse all forms 21:18:08 everything you're not used to looks strange 21:18:12 where was that image about "paren panic"? 21:18:31 you're not supposed to be comfortable with a language you barely know 21:19:03 m4dnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 21:19:20 Well people around here are testimony its possible so I have to adapt 21:19:55 yes, the brains people are packing in their craniums are quite plastic 21:19:57 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053009210.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 21:19:59 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:19:59 -!- pavlvs [~pavlvs@231.56.143.24.cm.sunflower.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:20:00 -!- lisppaste [~lisppaste@common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:20:00 -!- museun [~what@c-98-252-140-73.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:20:40 MrMC: http://xkcd.com/224/ 21:20:47 MrMC: good indentation, different font for parens and editor that can match them, and you no longer even see them 21:21:05 Every lisper goes through this exact expirience once. :) 21:21:05 glidesurfer [~rosario@77-64-171-36.dynamic.primacom.net] has joined #lisp 21:21:35 milkpost [~milkpost@dhcpw80ff93d1.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 21:21:39 that's not true! 21:21:50 stassats: Maybe more! 21:22:38 -!- m4dnificent is now known as madnificent 21:22:45 that's a very cheap kind of smugness 21:23:42 MoALTz_ [~no@92.8.242.164] has joined #lisp 21:24:51 methinks you don't understand what smugness is. 21:25:38 rolando [~user@251.35.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 21:25:54 -!- MoALTz [~no@92.8.229.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:26:19 zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:26:21 naryl: haha I have this very awe for the language. and await enlightenment 21:26:25 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@dhcpw80ff93d1.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:27:01 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:27:37 stassats: MrMC: Ok, maybe not every lisper, but I clearly remember those moments when you stop noticing syntax. It happened with Lisp, Tcl and Haskell. 21:28:32 It has nothing to do with language or smugness. That's just how people read. 21:28:44 It happens with spoken languages too. 21:29:21 anyone here used ABCL with Java RMI? 21:29:46 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:30:07 you can program c in notepad. Not a great experience, but it works. Programming lisp without explicit editor support is very painful. 21:30:14 *stassats* doesn't like when lisp is advertised in such a way, with big expectations come big disappointments 21:32:07 prxq: Tab to indent current line is enough for me persnally 21:32:59 adobriyan: no paren matching? 21:33:44 you don't need to match them if you insert them in pairs 21:33:52 msponge_ [~msponge@149-169-172-195.nat.asu.edu] has joined #lisp 21:33:53 -!- msponge [~msponge@149-169-172-195.nat.asu.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:33:54 -!- msponge_ [~msponge@149-169-172-195.nat.asu.edu] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:34:16 -!- iwillig [~ivan@ool-18b944f4.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:34:18 francogrex [~user@109.130.192.99] has joined #lisp 21:34:21 prxq: highlighting maybe, but the bare minimum is very small 21:34:58 What kind of data structure do i need to represent a matrix 21:35:08 arrays 21:35:20 naturally 21:35:23 paren matching goes a long way, that is true. The idea that inserting them in pairs mitigates the pain is correct, but it doesn't mitigate it much 21:35:38 stassats: thanks 21:35:45 adobriyan: what impl do you work with? ...and with what editor? 21:35:59 I was tempted to use cons 21:36:03 prxq: i don't really think i care about paren highlighting with paredit 21:36:05 IMO, anyway. Pampered slime user here. :-] 21:36:11 Jerque [~Mool@i577B4DE3.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 21:36:22 stassats: that counts as explicit language support by the editor. 21:36:29 i guess i'll need to try turning it off 21:36:46 *prxq* used inferior-lisp-mode today 21:37:10 it's inferior! 21:37:18 and created one of those "standalone" thingies. No hassle at all, which really surprised me. 21:37:28 stassats: all is relative :-) 21:37:45 well, relatively to slime 21:38:18 -!- rillo2 [~user@iqool.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:38:32 that is true 21:39:13 (i speak as a pampered slime contributor) 21:39:28 -!- Glert [~Mool@i59F7EF64.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:40:03 what are the alternatives to slime if there are any? 21:40:28 excluding notepad 21:40:32 ceslopez86 [~cesar@190.87.53.172] has joined #lisp 21:40:36 proprietary IDEs, lispworks, allegro 21:40:36 MrMC: there seems to be a vi mode. It's a sad specter of slime, IIRC 21:40:56 well, scratch that. I've never used it. 21:41:07 fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-178-002-104-018.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:41:35 MrMC: emacs without slime is an alternative 21:42:01 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:42:10 jabberwocky used to be something like an alternative, but I've never used it either. 21:42:25 francogrex: is it? 21:42:30 prxq: I always use inferior lisp mode it's gereat 21:42:35 yes it is 21:42:42 frankly, learning enough emacs to use slime is worth it. 21:43:00 there's at least one SWANK client for Eclipse 21:43:01 I use slime AND inferior lisp mode 21:43:02 francogrex: i was thinking about sane alternatives 21:43:11 francogrex: out of curiosity - why not slime? 21:43:26 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:43:56 prxq I use both, depending on the mood. I don't find the inferior lisp mode repulsive, actually I think it's quite ok 21:44:21 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:44:38 MrMC: mclide is also a lisp gui. Never used that either :-) 21:44:53 it's not repulsive, it's... inferior 21:44:55 I split the emacs in two, the repl (inf lisp mode) on top panel and the lower panel my lisp file and CxCe doesn't great job 21:45:05 francogrex: I used it for a long time, but I still find slime a lot better. 21:45:33 but - but the inspector! 21:45:37 stassats: for what I use it for it's sufficient 21:45:45 I take it there is no other editor but emacs and slime is the Lisp plug in 21:46:03 MrMC: it's where most development happens. 21:46:06 francogrex: what does it have what slime doesn't? 21:46:18 MrMC: there are alternatives, but emacs + slime is kinda the best choice. 21:46:35 i'm completely baffled why anyone would use _both_ of them 21:46:41 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:46:56 stassats: I don't think it has anything special that slime doesn't have, it's a matter of habit (and taste) 21:46:58 i'd understand using only inferior because of some mumbo-jumbo simplicity, but both? 21:47:58 -!- McMAGIC-- [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--] has quit [Quit: McMAGIC--] 21:48:06 stassats: when I'm on windows I prefer inferior lisp, on linux I use slime 21:48:06 MrMC: slime is insanely powerful. IMO, anyway. What platform are you on? 21:48:07 *stassats* refuses to argue against tastes and habits 21:48:07 -!- jweiss [~user@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:48:33 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@92.8.242.164] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:48:40 stassats: don't remember anyone expecting that from you :-) 21:49:00 Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 21:49:10 i didn't expect anyone to expect either 21:49:30 -!- tauntaun [~icarus@64.134.102.125] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:50:39 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 21:50:51 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-193-241-28.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:51:40 *francogrex* pissed off because the weather is improving. Summer is drawing close. Good weather is very bad for good programming 21:53:03 msponge [~msponge@149-169-172-195.nat.asu.edu] has joined #lisp 21:53:05 -!- msponge [~msponge@149-169-172-195.nat.asu.edu] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:53:24 just jet between the hemispheres. october-march in europe, the rest in new zealand (: 21:54:47 well, winter sports aren't helpful for programming either 21:55:24 I heard in some parts of the British islands the weather is bad all year, and there isn't any snow either 21:55:27 hah, get enough failed ligaments and that becomes a non-issue (: 21:55:36 frodef [~frode@shevek.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 21:57:00 hah yes, would like to move to somewhere gray and cold (some rain is also helpful). I see all gettinge xcited about sunshine! I hate the sun 21:58:25 anyone here using abcl? 21:58:51 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5B0C2938.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:59:41 prxq: I am on FreeBSD and Mac OS X 22:00:27 -!- gabnet [~gabnet@136.63.193-77.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 22:01:01 p_l|home: ehu does, I think 22:01:08 MrMC: then maybe mclide is an option for you too. 22:01:09 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 22:02:35 -!- dkasak [~dkasak@dh207-100-181.xnet.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:03:01 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:03:02 I have aquamacs, slime and cmucl 22:03:37 dkasak [~dkasak@dh207-100-181.xnet.hr] has joined #lisp 22:03:41 cmucl? 22:03:46 sounds like a nice setup 22:03:46 why cmucl? 22:04:07 cmucl has a better debugger than sbcl, i've been told 22:04:39 clozure crushes when I run slime 22:05:18 I am on Leopard by the way 22:05:50 how does it crash? 22:06:01 prxq: i doubt that 22:07:12 I dont have the exact error but has the words Trap 22:07:30 I am in FreeBSD at the moment 22:08:18 even if clozure doesn't work and you don't want to sort it out, still, why cmucl, and not sbcl? 22:09:31 sbcl does the same cmucl snapshot works 22:09:41 so does clisp 22:10:22 MrMC: that sounds very weird. can you paste details from the crash, please? 22:10:35 (http://paste.lisp.org) 22:11:07 -!- tfb [~tfb@92.41.36.214.threembb.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:11:23 ok Let me switch OS's 22:11:33 brb 22:11:37 -!- MrMC [~MrMC@91-65-179-6-dynip.superkabel.de] has left #lisp 22:12:50 How do to specify to asdf that I want to load (e.g. not-compile) a source file with path located inside a component before compiling the remaining files of component? 22:14:38 why do you want to do that? 22:15:17 because I need the forms of that file present before the remaining ones. 22:15:17 hmmm, why does alexandria provide if-let, when-let and when-let* but not if-let*? what's the rationale? 22:15:37 mon_key: macros? 22:15:43 why do you want to load it and not compile? 22:15:48 and why _not_ compile? 22:15:51 right? 22:17:01 The compiled fasls are cached yeah? 22:17:17 -!- replcated [~user@68.171.143.254] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:18:12 mon_key: i still do not understand 22:18:19 i'll paste 22:18:42 yes, they are cached, but what of it? 22:19:10 I push the files forms values onto a special variable at loadtime. 22:19:53 cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.139.95.133] has joined #lisp 22:19:57 you better paste it, i can't make any sense 22:22:51 mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has joined #lisp 22:22:51 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has quit [Changing host] 22:22:51 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 22:23:09 MrMC [~Adium@91-65-179-6-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 22:24:02 mon_key: if you have things of the form (defparameter *foo-code* '(lambda (a b c) etc)) then you can safely compile things before loading 22:24:14 (just guessing) 22:24:49 i mean, guessing what you might mean 22:27:10 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.192.99] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:27:11 varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 22:28:17 tauntaun [~icarus@ool-457c37c3.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 22:30:42 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 22:30:51 iwillig [~ivan@rrcs-24-103-24-162.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:32:37 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-97-201.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:33:12 antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 22:33:18 -!- djinni` [~djinni`@li125-242.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:33:53 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 22:34:24 djinni` [~djinni`@li125-242.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 22:35:40 Kenjin [~josesanto@a89-155-149-57.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 22:35:40 pasted maybe it gets relayed if not: http://paste.lisp.org/+2L9Z 22:36:43 seangrove [~user@70-36-236-168.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 22:37:47 -!- glidesurfer [~rosario@77-64-171-36.dynamic.primacom.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:38:10 -!- ceslopez86 [~cesar@190.87.53.172] has left #lisp 22:38:29 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host102-184-dynamic.6-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:39:21 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:39:29 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:39:33 mon_key: i'm sorry, i still don't understand. 22:39:43 neither do i 22:40:15 and why are you not using MOP to add documentation? 22:41:11 Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has joined #lisp 22:41:44 Hi [~Adium@he190123.dsl.fsr.net] has joined #lisp 22:41:51 Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:41:55 I've got a bunch of big hairy class/class-slot docstrings, at loadtime I store these to an instance which pushes that instances value to a hashtable... When the subsequent files are loaded the defclass forms access the docstrings from the hash-table stored in the special variable.. 22:41:56 -!- Hi is now known as Guest89506 22:43:08 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@173-10-44-57-Michigan.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:43:13 that doesn't sound as if loading without compiling would make much difference. 22:43:21 stassats: Maybe I should, but I don't entirely understand how to do it.. FWIW I inquired how to frob SBCL's MOP on #sbcl on Monday/Tuesday and didn't get any response. Perhaps I should have asked here instead :{ 22:43:40 some impls compile by default and have no interpreter. So the difference isn't there to begin with 22:43:41 . 22:43:42 sbcl's mop is standard MOP 22:43:56 though you should use closer-mop if you want to be portable 22:44:01 stassats: then I'm not capable of doing it... 22:44:14 well, learning MOP first helps 22:44:43 Does the MOP specify a way to access class-slot documentation portably? 22:45:08 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:45:24 -!- spilman [~spilman@ARennes-552-1-109-10.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: .] 22:45:32 My impression is that to use the MOP i end up having to specify (:metaclass documented-class) for each class using the feature??? 22:46:03 is that unacceptable? 22:46:12 mon_key: yes, but you could create a macro to make that a bit easier on your eyes :) 22:46:20 but better don't 22:46:27 mon_key: I personally don't see the issue with it though 22:46:41 mon_key: 'it' being: specifying :metaclass documented-class 22:46:57 stassats: why shouldn't you? Just interested 22:47:03 Bronsa [~brace@host102-184-dynamic.6-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 22:47:16 because 22:47:20 stassats: I don't know. The question then becomes how to use multiple :metaclass'es? 22:47:31 mon_key: multiple inheritance? 22:47:55 stassats: (:metaclass meta-A meta-B)? 22:48:16 no 22:48:41 you define your metaclass to be a subclass of several classes 22:48:48 so a mixin of two supers where superA is (:metaclass meta-A) and superB is (:metaclass meta-B) 22:48:56 what idiom should one use to prevent macro from evaluating the passed argument more than once? this comes to mind: `(let ((a ,arg)) ; use a instead of arg) 22:49:05 is that the proper way? 22:49:23 kennyd: mostly, you could use a gensym for a though 22:49:36 kennyd: the name of the variable should be gensymmed 22:50:15 stassats: 'because' isn't really an argument btw ;) 22:50:18 and some like using ONCE-ONLY macro (i don't) 22:50:24 kennyd: there's a macro in PCL called something-once that does that for you 22:50:36 oh, what stassats said 22:50:38 what does gensym do that above let wouldn't? 22:50:47 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:50:51 kennyd: they're orthogonal 22:51:08 stassats: My concern (well placed or not) is that I will need these clasess to work with rucksack and potentially/probably LOL both of which have MOP frobbage as well... 22:51:18 with gensym you would introduce a name which wouldn't clash 22:51:27 kennyd: a gensym creates an unused symbol. It ensures you can't accidentally capture a variable. 22:51:57 mon_key: you can make it work, don't be scared of it :) 22:51:58 ok makes sense 22:52:27 madnificent: :) not so much scared as sceptical... 22:52:40 stassats why don't you like ONCE-ONLY? 22:52:58 grr [~grr@76.73.16.26] has joined #lisp 22:53:11 -!- prip [~foo@host68-133-dynamic.46-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:53:11 mon_key: the mop has been built to allow for these kind of things, it's built in a way that allows you to build extensible software. So it'll fit in there. 22:53:14 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:53:22 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 22:53:31 mon_key: MOP is something that will make you spin like crazy between "Hooray!, I get it! It's so simple yet beautiful" and "Holy Shit Batman how do I shot web???" ^_- 22:53:34 msponge [~msponge@149-169-172-195.nat.asu.edu] has joined #lisp 22:53:35 -!- msponge [~msponge@149-169-172-195.nat.asu.edu] has quit [Excess Flood] 22:53:36 never used it, so i don't know why i would like it, so i resort to not liking it 22:53:40 mon_key: clearly, it must still be possible ;) I'm assuming your functionality will not clash with theirs, but it probably won't 22:53:49 McMAGIC-- [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--] has joined #lisp 22:53:49 rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #lisp 22:53:57 stassats: that's cheap to give the advice not to do it 22:54:09 did i give advice? 22:54:16 msponge [~msponge@149-169-172-195.nat.asu.edu] has joined #lisp 22:54:17 -!- msponge [~msponge@149-169-172-195.nat.asu.edu] has quit [Excess Flood] 22:54:36 p_l|home: CLOS still makes my head twirl... 22:54:43 stassats: "but better don't" I may have misinterpreted it 22:55:06 Guys I am back with the crushing clozure and sbcl 22:55:23 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-178-002-104-018.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 22:55:41 mon_key: yeah, it seems to have that effect. Real brain teasers :) 22:55:57 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 22:56:08 -!- muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:56:12 madnificent: sorry, i keep up with discussions linearly 22:56:15 When starting slime I get Trace/BPT trap 22:56:27 stassats: never mind :) 22:56:33 "better don't create a macro for defclass" is an advice, not using ONCE-ONLY is not an advice 22:56:39 Its only in the last few weeks that I'm beginning to see CLOS from a defgeneric standpoint (as opposed to defclass)... 22:58:27 madnificent: ONCE-ONLY _does_ scares the holy hell out of me 22:58:41 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 22:59:18 mon_key: never used it, sorry 22:59:36 mon_key: and regarding accessing documentation portably: you use DOCUMENTATION on a slot definition 23:00:22 Odaym [~unix@212.36.209.4] has joined #lisp 23:01:24 stassats: e.g. (setf (documentation '???) "") 23:01:46 no, e.g. (documentation (find 'foo (c2mop:class-slots (find-class 'foo)) :key #'c2mop:slot-definition-name) t) 23:02:01 => "Witty docstring" 23:03:05 its setf'able? 23:03:06 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:03:13 sure 23:03:54 and you can specify it through :documentation option for slot definitions in defclass 23:04:06 -!- dkasak [~dkasak@dh207-100-181.xnet.hr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:04:42 i don't follow the "specify it through" who specializes? 23:05:22 i don't understand the question 23:05:36 malbertife [~marcoalbe@bl5-19-133.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 23:05:37 what i meant: (defclass foo () ((foo :documentation "Foo"))) 23:05:46 what's "who specializes", i don't know 23:06:04 -!- varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 23:06:14 stassats: how is that any differnt than the CLOS's standard-class? 23:06:24 prip [~foo@host62-124-dynamic.35-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 23:06:50 it's not, i guess because it is standard-class 23:07:29 stassats: I'm sorry maybe i'm communicatig poorly. 23:07:48 or maybe i am 23:08:03 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 23:08:07 What I mean to ask is if I do (setf (documentation 'foo 'function) "witty docstring") foo gets the docstring. 23:08:51 yes, the function hiding behind the symbol FOO gets the docstring 23:08:59 dkasak [~dkasak@dh207-101-71.xnet.hr] has joined #lisp 23:09:30 but there isn't a (setf (documentation {...} ) ...) for a class slot 23:09:31 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.236.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:09:42 there is, i just showed you! 23:10:17 :) I see that i can get the docstring its the setting I'm curious about. 23:10:28 (setf (documentation t) "Presumptuously witty docstring") 23:10:39 I'm loading c2mop now. 23:10:52 -!- seangrove [~user@70-36-236-168.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:11:01 setting is like getting, but the other way around 23:12:15 -!- rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:12:18 hargettp [~hargettp@96.237.121.111] has joined #lisp 23:13:03 nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has joined #lisp 23:13:03 -!- nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has quit [Changing host] 23:13:03 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 23:15:06 -!- adobriyan [~ad@vulture-nat-37.telecom.by] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:15:10 icbh [~icbh@ntszok076238.szok.nt.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 23:15:21 -!- icbh [~icbh@ntszok076238.szok.nt.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 23:15:37 (c2mop is a nickname for closer-mop, just in case) 23:16:12 -!- iwillig [~ivan@rrcs-24-103-24-162.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:16:25 stassats: Yes. So, in order to: (c2mop:class-slots (find-class 'tt--my-class)) the class must be finalized... 23:16:32 sure 23:16:37 well not sure. 23:17:14 now you know 23:17:18 Now i've got a similar problem... Where do i store those doctsrings until I can get a finalized class? 23:17:45 what's stopping you from finalizing it? 23:17:53 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has quit [Quit: tronador_] 23:18:14 :) Aside from not knowing what it means? 23:18:27 running c2mop:finalize-inheritance 23:18:51 -!- leo2007 [~leo@2402:f000:5:2901:225:4bff:fea9:b9e4] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.3.50.1] 23:19:02 minion: mop? 23:19:03 mop: Meta Object Protocol(MOP) is a protocol for describing CLOS itself as an extensible CLOS program. http://www.cliki.net/mop 23:19:18 that's the link i meant http://alu.org/mop/index.html 23:19:51 reading the whole AMOP probably helps, i never did 23:20:30 I periodically glance over the dead tree version... 23:20:45 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:21:39 so, do you understand how to set and get documentation of slots now? 23:21:44 so, here's MrMC's the crash results of ccl running swank on OS X 10.5: http://paste.lisp.org/display/120892 23:22:05 stassats: Not at all but I will and I appreciate your help. 23:22:06 I'm pretty much stumped by how swank starts up properly and then gets that trace/bpt trap 23:22:42 antifuchs: maybe it's after the connection is accepted? 23:22:53 yeah, I'm suspecting something like this 23:23:12 MrMC: what's happening after slime starts up? did you get to issue any commands? 23:23:39 I cant get a REPL 23:23:48 is corman common lisp dead? 23:23:49 http://alu.org/mop/concepts.html#class-finalization-protocol 23:24:15 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d013d98.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: good night] 23:24:20 yes, but you shouldn't really know it for your task 23:24:26 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:25:01 Fare: not utterly, I think... 23:25:12 there haven't been any new developement lately, though 23:25:32 stassats: at issue is my prior question w/r/t multiple metaclasses and when it is feasible to assign the docstring. 23:25:32 antifuchs: I am not getting a REPL prompt 23:26:17 mon_key: you don't need a custom metaclass for docstrings 23:26:38 MrMC: can you annotate that paste with the contents of *slime-events* buffer? 23:27:11 schell [~schellsci@70-36-199-232.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 23:27:48 mon_key: anyway, you can't have multiple metaclasses 23:28:33 -!- xristos [~x@2001:470:8859:cafe:20c:29ff:fe47:788] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:28:33 -!- tsuru [~charlie@adsl-87-47-213.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:28:50 stassats: Here is what I'm seeing. I'm sure its prob. short sighted but there you go... I have defclass forms in a file. I either inline the docstring with (defclass 'foo () ((slot :documentation "slot doc")) {...} ) or i delay that until later. and then (setf (MOP STUFF HERE) "slot doc") 23:28:57 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 23:29:17 -!- milanj [~milanj_@178-223-172-123.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:29:21 yes, that's two options 23:29:28 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 23:29:28 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Changing host] 23:29:28 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 23:29:30 -!- _8david [~user@port-92-195-17-116.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:29:38 I can't setf the (MOP STUFF HERE) until after the class is finalized. 23:29:48 well, finalize it 23:30:02 So, how at compile-time does one finalize the class??? 23:30:19 i told you! c2mop:finalize-inheritance 23:30:50 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:31:07 has anyone looked at xcvb? at evol? 23:31:21 xristos [~x@2001:4968:200:0:20c:29ff:fe47:788] has joined #lisp 23:31:36 -!- xristos is now known as Guest52100 23:31:45 antifuchs:Just updated the slime events buffer 23:33:11 antifuchs: I also get a Trap when I try to run the COCOA examples 23:33:38 so, it connects 23:33:54 i suspect that it might be with not running in the right thread 23:34:10 stassats: So finalize the class just prior to looking for a slot object to setf a docstring with? 23:34:33 mon_key: if that's what you need, yes 23:35:01 MrMC: try putting (setf swank:*communication-style* :fd-handler) into ~/.swank.lisp 23:35:10 stassats: And presumably that happes away from outside of the immediate definition of the class. 23:35:40 there is no such thing as a distance between definitions 23:35:56 order matters, but not distance 23:36:33 dmiles [~dmiles@c-71-193-241-28.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:36:43 fine, where order entails both compile-time/load-time sequencing? 23:37:10 MrMC: The usual cause of death via a Trace/BPT trap on Mac OS X is that you tried to load (directly or indirectly) CoreFoundation.dylib from a thread that is not the main thread. Instead of printing an error message to this effect, Apple decided it would be better to trap. 23:37:31 order entails having a class defined before it's used 23:39:38 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-97-201.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:39:54 rme: is there a fix for this? 23:39:56 rme: so, is that a question for implementations to sort this out? 23:40:42 OK. so my order is defclass foo then asdf:compile-more-stuff then just before completing the compile/load sequence I load a file full of docstrings for foo an friends and at the top of that file is a list of classes to finalize and once that is finished i can do the setf MOP-STUFF-HERE "my precious docstrings."?? 23:41:15 sure 23:41:32 but better include conditional finalization into MOP-STUFF-HERE 23:41:54 conditional? 23:42:04 We changed ccl:open-shared-library to load libraries on the initial thread on Mac OS X to try to avoid this problem. It looks like that made it into 1.6, so maybe that's not the issue here. 23:42:09 yes, after checking c2mop:class-finalized-p 23:43:24 stassats: That did the trick 23:43:35 now I get a REPL 23:43:43 MrMC: congrats! 23:44:20 yeah, it avoids creating new threads 23:47:52 mon_key: Getting the REPL to work is 0.03 of Learning Lisp but one hurdle done 23:48:30 blame Apple for wasting so much of your time 23:48:48 MrMC: ccl also runs on FreeBSD if you prefer that environment 23:49:01 MrMC: just don't get stuck editing Emacs Lisp for a few years while you struggle with Slime/CL intetgration (which is what happened to me...) 23:49:24 y 23:49:52 you should always have a good sense of not working on tools too much 23:49:59 -!- dmiles [~dmiles@c-71-193-241-28.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:50:57 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: zz] 23:51:06 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-193-241-28.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:51:09 is there a way to make foo-evaluate-once shorter? http://paste.lisp.org/display/120895 23:51:44 -!- Odaym [~unix@212.36.209.4] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:51:57 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host102-184-dynamic.6-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:52:06 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:53:32 use once only? 23:53:46 and using setq is wrong here 23:53:57 you should still use LET 23:54:02 I wanted to learn how to use gensym first 23:54:11 why is setq wrong? 23:54:24 rme: Yes ccl FreeBSD works great. On OS X i want to use the cocoa bridge 23:54:36 because you set a non-existent variable 23:55:30 it appears to work though? 23:55:40 by luck 23:57:28 so I should do something like this? (let ((garg (gensym))) `(let ((,garg ,arg)) 23:57:36 yes 23:58:23 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:59:33 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.87.99] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:59:55 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:59:57 lemoinem [~swoog@210-84-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 00:00:20 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-139-126.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:03:44 planetPlosion [~chatzilla@c-24-245-21-197.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:04:45 Is using 'eval' in Lisp as big a sin as it is in JS/Python/other dynamic languages? 00:05:14 yes 00:05:24 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 00:05:33 stassats: what does this mean src/pcl/defs.lisp slot-definition ;; KLUDGE: we need a reader for bootstrapping purposes, in COMPUTE-EFFECTIVE-SLOT-DEFINITION-INITARGS. :reader %slot-definition-documentation) 00:05:40 but when you understand that it's sinful, it's becomes less sinful 00:05:51 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483BF85.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:05:59 realitygrill [~realitygr@24.208.248.193] has joined #lisp 00:06:02 Yuuhi [benni@p5483BF85.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 00:06:25 Is eval sinful at compile-time as well? 00:07:14 -!- xan_ [~xan@156.Red-83-35-102.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:08:27 mon_key: i don't really know how PCL is bootstrapped, so i don't know 00:08:43 but why are you interested? 00:09:32 Evious: eval is acceptable as long as you know what you're doing 00:10:53 stassats: its one of the few KLUDGE notes in defs.lisp and it has applicability to slot documentation.... 00:11:11 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@24.208.248.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:11:20 it has no applicability as far as you're concerned 00:13:05 timepilot [~timepilot@c-98-227-187-219.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:13:14 Odaym [~unix@212.36.209.4] has joined #lisp 00:15:48 mon_key: my guess is: slot-value isn't implemented during bootstrapping phase, so you need a reader 00:17:02 what is bootstrapping? bootstrapping from the host lisp? 00:17:11 but, i don't really know pcl internals, and i don't see why you should learn them for this problem either 00:17:34 its where M . led me 00:17:48 well, the less you know, the better you sleep 00:18:02 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:19:08 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:19:10 -!- tauntaun [~icarus@ool-457c37c3.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 00:20:11 -!- tenawa [~user@adsl-75-53-123-94.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:20:56 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:21:47 Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-54-177-186.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:21:47 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-54-177-186.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 00:21:47 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 00:22:50 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-100-182.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:23:12 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 00:26:30 I'm having problems with once-only. can someone explain why? 00:26:31 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:26:57 paste bot seems to be down. here's the link: http://paste.lisp.org/display/120897 00:26:57 "you're doing it wrong" explains all problems 00:28:07 Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-54-177-186.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:28:07 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-54-177-186.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 00:28:07 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 00:28:08 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Quit: I'll see you on the dark side of the moon] 00:28:09 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:28:32 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-157-151.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 00:29:38 as far as I understood I could just stick once-only at the top of the macro and all should be well. that doesn't seem to be the case though 00:30:21 lisppaste is down? 00:30:31 minion: Are you okay? 00:30:32 no 00:30:41 ppc eieio 00:30:41 Enforce In-Order Execution of I/O: http://www.nersc.gov/vendor_docs/ibm/asm/eieio.htm#idx390 00:31:24 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:31:46 Adlai [~Adlai@89-139-23-228.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 00:31:50 kennyd: you understand it wrong 00:32:01 -!- Adlai [~Adlai@89-139-23-228.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:32:03 lisppaste [~lisppaste@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 00:32:21 Pastebot is back, if anyone cares. 00:32:27 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:32:39 Adlai [~Adlai@89-139-23-228.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 00:32:48 *nyef* disappears again. 00:32:51 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 00:32:58 so what am I doing wrong? it worked in simpler example 00:32:58 rononovski_ [~rononovsk@bzq-109-64-185-226.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 00:32:59 -!- Adlai [~Adlai@89-139-23-228.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Changing host] 00:32:59 Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 00:34:28 Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-54-177-186.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:34:28 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-54-177-186.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 00:34:28 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 00:34:46 -!- jet_efyhw [~jet_efyhw@c-75-72-244-165.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [] 00:35:09 mon_key: bootstrapping in this case means "building CLOS from minimal set of primitives" 00:35:23 kennyd: x, y, and step become bound to symbols returned by GENSYM 00:35:56 and you're trying to access them inside a macro, expecting them to be numbers 00:35:59 mon_key: the "P" in PCL comes from being made portable to common lisp before CLOS became part of the standard 00:36:10 and RANGE shouldn't be a macro at all 00:36:15 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.3.49] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:36:43 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:38:17 yeah I know I'm just learning about defmacro 00:39:00 how come I can use a a number in here? (defmacro foo (a) (once-only (a) `(+ ,a ,a))) 00:39:07 as a number* 00:39:13 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:39:17 and not related: UPTO (1- x) == BELOW X, and DOWNTO (1+ x) == ABOVE X 00:39:18 but not in range 00:39:32 tcr [~tcr@100.Red-88-6-12.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:39:34 kennyd: because you expand into it 00:39:42 and in the pasted code you use it at the macroexpansion time 00:40:49 okay 00:42:41 nice to know about downto. don't suppose there's a way to make loop count up/down depending if (< start end) or vice versa? or alternatively, if step is positive or negative 00:45:06 (loop for i = from then (+ i step) until (= i to) collect i) 00:45:31 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-193-241-28.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:45:38 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:46:14 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-193-241-28.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:47:05 ok thanks. i can't seem to figure out where I'm using it at macroexpansion time. can you give me a hint? 00:47:15 -!- MrMC [~Adium@91-65-179-6-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:47:19 x in range macro 00:47:36 (assert (> step 0)) (when (not y) (setf y x) (setf x 0)) 00:47:43 (if (< x y) `(upto ,(1- y)) `(downto ,(1+ y))) 00:48:07 tauntaun [~icarus@64.134.102.125] has joined #lisp 00:48:17 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 00:48:35 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:49:16 that's the most crucial part of macros to understand 00:50:53 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:51:07 -!- pds [~shelta@shpd-92-101-131-175.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:51:54 c|mell [~cmell@216.112.110.88.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #lisp 00:52:23 -!- schell [~schellsci@70-36-199-232.dsl.static.sonic.net] has left #lisp 00:53:35 mustapha [~mustapha@unaffiliated/mustapha] has joined #lisp 00:55:12 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 00:58:03 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:00:49 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@210-84-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:01:37 had no clue there's below in loop macro, I was always annoyed that end is inclusive. should have known there's exlusive version as well :) 01:03:01 MrMC [~Adium@91-65-179-6-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 01:04:35 grr: also, above (: 01:06:10 yeah same for above, though I didn't need to use that one as often 01:07:21 tenawa [~user@adsl-75-53-123-94.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:08:07 longfin [~longfin@119.192.175.113] has joined #lisp 01:08:07 -!- mustapha [~mustapha@unaffiliated/mustapha] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 01:10:41 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:12:03 -!- 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quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:47:29 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:48:08 -!- Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:48:30 Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has joined #lisp 02:50:18 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 02:50:50 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:52:46 jsoft [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 02:53:26 Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-54-177-186.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:53:26 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-54-177-186.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 02:53:27 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 02:53:46 joe999 [~root@cpe-24-93-163-134.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:53:49 -!- tauntaun [~icarus@64.134.102.125] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 02:53:58 how do I list all current clos instances? 02:54:22 Why do you want to do that? 02:54:47 because I am experimenting with hunchentoot and I want to change what it's serving 02:57:45 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:00:37 -!- longfin [~longfin@119.192.175.113] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:01:21 joe999: first solution, would be to patch the garbage collector to enumerate all the objects and filter out the clos instances. 03:01:28 joe999: some implementations provide such a feature. 03:01:38 joe: That doesn't make sense. 03:01:56 joe: You know that CLOS supports instance updating? 03:02:35 joe999: the second solution, 90/10, would be to track the instances of the classes you want to track, in a weak collection, either in a method of the meta-class or a method of the class (eg. initialize-instance). 03:03:01 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:03:25 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:03:34 joe999: notice that if you get a list of all the instances, then while you keep this list, these instances cannot be garbage collected no matter what. 03:03:42 Modius_ [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:03:49 joe999: and if you get instead a weak list, then any instance in it may disappear before you process it. 03:04:05 joe999: All this gives you a lot of hint that it's not something you want to do... 03:04:14 -!- Modius_ [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 03:04:14 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 03:04:26 Which brings us back to "why do you want this list?" 03:04:36 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:05:07 Objects are about modeling the real world. In the real world, you don't get a file with all the objects in the world in front of you. 03:05:11 *_3b* was guessing something along the lines of forgetting to save the server instance after starting it 03:05:18 In the real world, you get small meaningful groups. 03:05:45 stresstest5538 [foobar@95.69.9.219] has joined #lisp 03:07:25 -!- stresstest5538 [foobar@95.69.9.219] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:07:58 cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.78] has joined #lisp 03:08:05 -!- cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.78] has quit [Changing host] 03:08:06 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 03:09:36 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has joined #lisp 03:10:09 thanks for the replies. yes, I forgot to save server instance 03:10:39 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-094-084.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:11:26 *_3b* would expect HT to save it somewhere if you really don't want to restart, M-. on whatever function started the server might be a good place to start looking 03:13:22 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 03:14:30 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A698E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:14:36 <_3b> hmm, seems it may only be saved in a thread's stack 03:15:17 stresstest5646 [foobar@95.69.9.219] has joined #lisp 03:15:57 -!- stresstest5646 [foobar@95.69.9.219] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:16:55 *_3b* wonders if slime has a 'store presentation in a variable' somewhere that could be used to extract it from a backtrace 03:18:00 <_3b> worst case you could probably just kill the ht thread from slime's thread list 03:18:56 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-39-6-229.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:20:15 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@96.237.121.111] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 03:20:40 tauntaun [~icarus@ool-457c37c3.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:21:13 *_3b* supposes you could also grab the value of *acceptor* while a request is being handled 03:22:13 that sounds like a cool idea 03:22:17 I did this: 03:22:21 * (sb-thread:list-all-threads) 03:22:21 03:22:22 (# 03:22:59 <_3b> * ? not using slime i guess? 03:23:09 not yet,from the sbcl repl 03:24:18 how would I have grabed *acceptor* hwile a request is handled? 03:24:53 -!- dlila [~dlila@CPE0014d1c9243c-CM001bd71cede2.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:25:04 <_3b> just moidify one of the pages it is serving, and store *acceptor* in some other variable 03:25:30 duh,thanks 03:25:53 <_3b> can't look at it elsewhere, since it is only bound dynamically 03:27:57 McMAGIC-- [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--] has joined #lisp 03:29:12 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-80-9.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:30:48 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:33:00 stresstest5793 [foobar@95.69.9.219] has joined #lisp 03:33:12 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-193-241-28.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:33:19 -!- stresstest5793 [foobar@95.69.9.219] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:33:59 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-39-0.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 03:35:49 gary-s [~gary@186.42.102.50] has joined #lisp 03:37:49 stresstest5880 [foobar@95.69.9.219] has joined #lisp 03:39:33 -!- timepilot [~timepilot@c-98-227-187-219.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: timepilot] 03:39:36 -!- xinming_ is now known as xinming 03:40:15 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:40:35 sellout [~Adium@adsl-199-19-168-189.dynamic.caneris.com] has joined #lisp 03:41:46 nowl [~nowl@c-71-233-2-216.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:42:23 -!- stresstest5880 [foobar@95.69.9.219] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:44:57 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:45:02 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.63.61] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:46:13 theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.80.190] has joined #lisp 03:47:15 st-6151 [foobar@95.69.9.219] has joined #lisp 03:47:50 fantazo_ [~fantazo@178-191-164-99.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 03:48:09 -!- st-6151 [foobar@95.69.9.219] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:48:35 -!- gary-s [~gary@186.42.102.50] has quit [Quit: gary-s] 03:49:34 st-6176 [foobar@95.69.9.219] has joined #lisp 03:50:56 -!- st-6176 [foobar@95.69.9.219] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:51:50 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@178-191-166-136.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:54:51 -!- jsoft [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:55:07 pkhuong: around? 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04:25:16 sb-cltl2 is an sbcl module to provide pre ansi let capabilities 04:25:38 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:26:41 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-99-89.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 04:27:00 st-6603 [foobar@95.69.9.219] has joined #lisp 04:28:11 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-99-89.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:14 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 04:31:56 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:35:23 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@204.14.152.118] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 04:36:30 -!- madsenz [~user@n122z215l236.bb122100.ctm.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:37:50 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@a89-155-149-57.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 04:37:51 longfin [~longfin@124.198.53.194] has joined #lisp 04:38:51 Good morning everyone! 04:40:30 joe999: Did you load it first? 04:41:32 joe999: The Common Lisp Controller is known to cause problems. I recommend you use quicklisp instead. 04:42:43 -!- pattern [~pattern@unaffiliated/pattern] has left #lisp 04:44:51 beach: have you seen this? https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B0ZnV_0C-Q7IOTRkNzVjZjMtMWE1NC00YzQ3LTgzMWEtM2UwY2I1YzdmNmM5&hl=en 04:45:08 "A Micro-Manual for LISP" 04:45:27 hey beach 04:45:51 p_l|home: Neat! 04:47:13 Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-54-177-186.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:47:13 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-54-177-186.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 04:47:13 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 04:48:14 I used require. I had installed slime with quicklisp on debian and got that error. switched to apt-get install cl-swank and that worked 04:51:08 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:51:22 joe999: Good for you! 04:52:31 Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-54-177-186.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:52:31 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-54-177-186.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 04:52:31 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 04:55:30 joe999: the sbcl that debian installed for you is very outdated 04:55:44 (currently, it's at 1.0.46 - you have 1.0.18) 04:56:00 joe999: if you install slime using quicklisp on a newer sbcl, this should also work 04:56:25 (I would recommend uninstalling all traces of common lisp software that debian installed; it's most likely outdated and will break stuff for you eventually) 04:57:25 beach: I found this paper from a blog post where a very minimal lisp system was defined in C 04:58:37 -!- Adamant 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[~levgue@xdsl-78-35-188-100.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:46:29 kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-160-203.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 05:47:31 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has joined #lisp 05:48:39 -!- nowl [~nowl@c-71-233-2-216.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:57:41 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:58:29 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 06:00:51 ... hahahahahahaha 06:01:17 apparently Oracle drops Itanium support 06:03:40 -!- cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.139.95.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:04:36 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:06:24 -!- joe999 [~root@cpe-24-93-163-134.neo.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 06:08:13 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:22:15 gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 06:25:12 Adamant 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[foobar@95.69.9.219] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:03:14 mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 08:03:14 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 08:03:14 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 08:04:46 rubydude [~rubydude@adsl-76-254-59-240.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:04:51 lisp sucks 08:04:56 ruby roxxorz 08:05:30 blahvant [~sam@adsl-76-254-59-240.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:05:59 why do you think so? 08:06:03 rubydude: it is true 08:06:04 That's a kind of felching variant, isn't it? 08:06:25 cauz lisp has no higher order functionz 08:06:28 and ruby doez 08:06:42 yeah i always wish lisp had high order functions 08:06:43 <_3b> no, your doing it wrong 08:06:51 Ok, my little retarded friend -- it's time for you to take a nap, now. 08:06:52 <_3b> your supposed to say 'lisp is slow and ruby isn't' :) 08:06:59 _3b: haha 08:07:13 beach` 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Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:57:08 -!- drdo` is now known as drdo 11:57:46 Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-54-177-186.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:57:46 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-54-177-186.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 11:57:46 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 11:59:16 -!- basho___ [~basho__@dslb-178-003-004-242.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:00:20 francogrex [~francogre@109.130.188.79] has joined #lisp 12:01:40 hi 12:02:41 Hello 12:02:51 hi 12:03:23 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:05:25 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@124-149-80-142.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:06:18 just testing connection to irc using my htc mobile. i don't have cll on it (only pocket scheme :( ) 12:06:26 ltriant [~ltriant@124-168-112-32.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 12:15:50 kpreid 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[~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 13:32:38 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 13:34:21 -!- cnl [~cnl@78.31.74.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:38:38 Ragnaroek_ [~chatzilla@p5B0C2CF2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:39:34 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-157-151.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:39:43 cnl [~cnl@78.31.74.25] has joined #lisp 13:40:51 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5B0C4846.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:41:05 -!- Ragnaroek_ is now known as Ragnaroek 13:45:11 cpc26 [~cpc26@66.87.7.46] has joined #lisp 13:45:47 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-51-60.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:48:43 -!- EarlGray [~dmytrish@inherent.puzzler.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:49:23 EarlGray [~dmytrish@inherent.puzzler.volia.net] has joined #lisp 13:50:22 -!- malbertife [~marcoalbe@bl5-19-133.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:51:13 hmmm... found Common Lisp for TOPS-20. 36bit rulz! ^_- 13:51:42 -!- Joreji [~thomas@85-183.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:53:03 Areil [~Areil@123.20.31.159] has joined #lisp 13:53:10 (well, pre-ANSI one - 1985) 13:53:58 -!- cpc26 [~cpc26@66.87.7.46] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 13:54:30 the next step is to find PDP-10 13:54:36 -!- EarlGray [~dmytrish@inherent.puzzler.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:56:02 malbertife [~marcoalbe@bl5-19-133.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 13:56:13 rexim: that's easy to do with emulators 13:56:42 though I'm unsure about availability of intermediate steps if I wanted to bootstrap CMUCL ;-) 13:56:55 basho__ [~basho__@dslb-178-003-004-242.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:57:42 -!- silentbicycle [~scott@99-55-246-143.lightspeed.gdrpmi.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 13:58:35 -!- Jacke [jacke@valhalla.bofh.org] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 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timeout: 248 seconds] 14:12:57 -!- francogrex [~francogre@109.130.188.79] has quit [] 14:13:59 McMAGIC-- [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--] has joined #lisp 14:14:32 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:15:23 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@41.56.57.134] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:16:57 Ragnaroek_ [~chatzilla@p5B0C36F3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:17:48 -!- EarlGray [~dmytrish@inherent.puzzler.volia.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 14:18:08 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 14:18:11 minion: are you there? 14:18:12 no 14:18:32 minion: why aren't you on #emacs? 14:18:32 does torturing a poor bot with things beyond its comprehension please you? 14:18:37 EarlGray [~dmytrish@inherent.puzzler.volia.net] has joined #lisp 14:18:45 tauntaun [~icarus@ool-457c37c3.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 14:18:49 Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-54-177-186.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:18:49 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-54-177-186.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 14:18:49 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 14:19:02 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5B0C2CF2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:19:09 -!- Ragnaroek_ is now known as Ragnaroek 14:19:46 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:21:03 anybody know of anything like movitz, especially if active? 14:21:57 (or in the category that would include it and, say, osicat) 14:22:15 Movitz is active. Only slow. 14:22:23 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:22:44 Other project in a similar category, and state of advancement, but perhaps not of speed, are sicl, sacla and xcl 14:23:01 really? I thought there was nothing with it in 3 years. 14:23:12 at what point does slow become inactive? 14:23:25 JuanDaugherty: when people lose interest entirely. 14:23:31 ah 14:23:42 JuanDaugherty: for example, I'm quite intereted in Movitz. I downloaded it once, and booted it once. 14:23:56 I'd love to work on it, and with it. Eg. I'd like to make it run on Xen. 14:24:05 yeah, me too 14:24:05 But I just don't have the time to do it. 14:24:12 So it's not dead, it's just inactive. 14:24:38 Ragnaroek_ [~chatzilla@p5B0C57DD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:24:56 -!- EarlGray [~dmytrish@inherent.puzzler.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:25:08 by that measure a huge slew of lisp packages that haven't been under active development for many years would still be "active" 14:26:07 Well, you must distinguish the packages that are not on active development because they're finished and just work, from those who aren't finished and haven't enough time. 14:26:07 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:26:25 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5B0C36F3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:26:35 -!- Ragnaroek_ is now known as Ragnaroek 14:27:17 (< (and (no active development) (not finished)) (active development) (and (no active development) finished)) 14:27:19 EarlGray [~dmytrish@inherent.puzzler.volia.net] has joined #lisp 14:27:25 yes was thinking of that 14:27:33 I assume (imply (active development) (not finished0)) :-) 14:27:56 dmytrish [~dmytrish@inherent.puzzler.volia.net] has joined #lisp 14:28:04 <_3b> could mean 'partially finished' 14:28:13 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 14:28:27 -!- kanru [~kanru@kanru-1-pt.tunnel.tserv15.lax1.ipv6.he.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:28:28 and I assume (imply (not finished) (not usable)) 14:28:28 <_3b> as in parts are finished 14:28:35 the category I asked about though is special in this regard 14:28:39 maybe use fuzzy logic? ;P 14:28:45 but it's not really true. 14:29:04 -!- EarlGray [~dmytrish@inherent.puzzler.volia.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:29:52 *_3b* would probably consider 'in use' a better indicator of 'udable' than 'finished' 14:30:00 <_3b> s/udable/usable/ 14:30:21 dmytrish_ [~dmytrish@inherent.puzzler.volia.net] has joined #lisp 14:30:43 JuanDaugherty: now, if you asked on the category of bare iron implementations, I guess you could have a look at the CADR emulator and its (original) software, Genera, and possibly even http://www.informatimago.com/linux/emacs-on-user-mode-linux.html which, if I had time for some more fun, I'd do for some CL implementation too. 14:31:08 thx, will chk out 14:31:12 <_3b> parts of sbcl have been run without OS i think 14:31:15 _3b: sometimes I write libraries that are finished and usable, but that I don't use. 14:31:16 -!- dmytrish [~dmytrish@inherent.puzzler.volia.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:31:44 the genera sources are available? 14:32:29 I don't know. Perhaps some level of introspection is available. I hear the whole system is accessible and modifiable. 14:32:51 Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-54-177-186.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:32:51 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-54-177-186.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 14:32:51 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 14:33:06 dmytrish__ [~dmytrish@inherent.puzzler.volia.net] has joined #lisp 14:33:33 -!- tauntaun [~icarus@ool-457c37c3.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 14:34:14 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:34:58 -!- dmytrish_ [~dmytrish@inherent.puzzler.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:37:30 jleija [~jleija@50.8.41.50] has joined #lisp 14:38:28 i guess I actually would be better server cobbling together packages from the systems programming category at cliki 14:38:37 *better served 14:39:11 <_3b> what are you trying to do? 14:39:40 Ragnaroek_ [~chatzilla@p5B0C6746.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:39:45 form a lisp backend to a rendering of the burroughs work flow language 14:40:02 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:40:38 so like a higher level OS abstraction over linux 14:41:20 *_3b* would have thought that to be pretty much the opposite of movitz 14:42:08 yes, movitz is just in the ball park 14:42:23 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5B0C57DD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:42:37 -!- Ragnaroek_ is now known as Ragnaroek 14:42:58 cl-event, iolib, etc. are more to my point 14:43:05 jsoftw [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 14:43:50 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 14:44:29 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 14:48:56 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:50:23 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:53:40 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:53:45 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@96.237.121.111] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 14:54:30 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 14:56:38 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5B0C6746.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:58:19 tauntaun [~icarus@64.134.102.125] has joined #lisp 14:59:24 gottesmm [~user@c-24-20-220-27.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:01:14 mateo [~mateo@user-0ccslg2.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 15:01:15 -!- mateo [~mateo@user-0ccslg2.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Client Quit] 15:01:25 Adlai [~adlai@89-139-23-228.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 15:03:12 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5B0C26C4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:03:36 -!- gottesmm [~user@c-24-20-220-27.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:04:41 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:05:03 Joreji [~thomas@85-183.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:05:59 and actually the llvm backend of sbcl would moot movitz, sozusprechen 15:06:28 (for me) 15:06:55 -!- hohum [dcorbe@apollo.corbe.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:07:50 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.65.210.62] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:08:40 http://vintage-digital.com/hefner/misc/lisp-programmers.jpg 15:09:32 -!- rillo2 [~user@p57B83768.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:10:45 lifeng [~lifeng@bb116-14-191-157.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 15:10:54 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.99.89] has joined #lisp 15:12:47 hohum [~dcorbe@apollo.corbe.net] has joined #lisp 15:13:22 adobriyan [~ad@vulture-nat-37.telecom.by] has joined #lisp 15:16:10 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-51-60.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 15:17:14 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:20:47 gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 15:20:58 "<_3b> parts of sbcl have been run without OS i think" -- It would perhaps be more accurate to say that the SBCL cross-compilation machinery was used to produce a small core which ran on a "bare iron" x86. 15:21:15 I don't believe I ever got to the point of trying to bring in a full cold-core. 15:21:30 <_3b> nyef: yeah, that was more or less what i meant 15:22:28 *_3b* doesn't know sbcl internals well enough to remember details of that sort of thing 15:25:50 -!- DrForr [~drforr@pool-98-112-230-87.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:27:06 -!- ec|detached is now known as elliottcable 15:27:17 spdr- [~spdr-@76.73.16.26] has joined #lisp 15:27:51 hello. can somebody explain how (/ 1 3) works? i am getting 1/3 in repl 15:28:04 <_3b> same as in math? 15:28:05 yeah 15:28:12 but how is it stored? 15:28:16 1/3 15:28:25 <_3b> CL has fractions, stores them however the implementation wants to 15:28:44 <_3b> or i guess 'rational' is the proper CL term 15:28:50 try (float (/ 1 3)) 15:29:16 ok. so as far as i can see, this can be used to perform floating point math operations without any loss in precision? 15:29:20 spdr-: ratios are usually stored as (amazingly enough) as pairs of integers. 15:29:22 <_3b> if you divide floating point numbers, you will get another floating point 15:29:31 spdr-: there's a trade-off with space and time usage. 15:29:33 spdr: Not floating point -- they're ratios. 15:30:18 Zhivago yeah. so there's no loss in precision at all, until (if) I want to convert them to float 15:31:13 is CL unique in supporting this? i haven't seen it in any other language 15:31:56 spdr-: most lisps (common, scheme or otherwise) support exact rationals. 15:32:01 spdr-: Exactly so. But it takes more memory to represent each number, and more time to compute with such numbers. 15:32:27 nyef yes of course, that's expected 15:32:48 -!- setmeaway [~setmeaway@118.45.149.204] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:33:54 setmeaway [setmeaway3@118.45.149.204] has joined #lisp 15:34:17 DrForr [~drforr@pool-98-112-230-87.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:35:05 they seem like a perfect fit for accounting application. what do you think? or could they be too slow? 15:36:05 there is no such thing as a third of a cent. People simply count in cents when it matters, I believe. 15:37:28 ok but say you're performing calculations in various currency. if you used floats to convert between one currency to another, and then did some more calculations, rounding errors would add up 15:37:39 ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 15:38:14 <_3b> you would probably need to limit the smallest amount represented to avoid using arbitrarily large amounts of storage 15:39:16 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-105-118-12.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 15:39:17 <_3b> so just use integral amounts of whatever smallest value you choose 15:39:42 <_3b> (floats are bad either way though) 15:39:45 yeah 15:40:46 what would be a good use case for rational numbers then? accounting app was the first thing that came to my mind 15:41:43 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 15:43:03 -!- mnau [~xc344@220.173.84.5] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:44:17 spdr-: they're good for math. ;-) 15:44:18 *_3b* does not use them much 15:44:20 . 15:44:36 :) 15:44:39 Ragnaroek_ [~chatzilla@p5B0C69D7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:45:00 <_3b> like a lot of CL features I don't use much, they are really nice when i do need them though :) 15:45:18 urandom__ [~user@p548A2D4C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:46:04 -!- dmytrish__ [~dmytrish@inherent.puzzler.volia.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 15:46:06 sigjuice [~sigjuice@c-71-198-22-233.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:46:19 dmytrish__ [~dmytrish@inherent.puzzler.volia.net] has joined #lisp 15:46:40 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5B0C26C4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:46:51 -!- Ragnaroek_ is now known as Ragnaroek 15:48:32 *_3b* could maybe see doing UI/page layout with rationals instead of floats, always annoying trying to get web pages divided nicely without stuff being a pixel off sometimes 15:48:48 lol 15:49:32 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:49:43 mnau [~xc344@220.173.84.5] has joined #lisp 15:50:34 -!- dmytrish__ is now known as dmytrish 15:50:46 morning 15:50:48 _3b: until you try to find the length of the diagonal of a 1x1 square. 15:50:56 <_3b> gigamonkey: true :) 15:52:00 <_3b> someone needs to write up a spec for irrationals for cltl3 15:52:13 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.93.59] has joined #lisp 15:52:22 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:52:49 At the other end of the spectrum, I sometimes find myself appreciating the choice in Javascript to just use double floats for everything. 15:53:15 paradoja [~paradoja@acceso-cmp174-55.lpa.idec.net] has joined #lisp 15:55:46 -!- rexim [~rexim@91.204.184.177] has quit [Quit:    ] 15:57:30 -!- dmytrish [~dmytrish@inherent.puzzler.volia.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:58:40 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.99.89] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 15:59:02 dmytrish [~dmytrish@inherent.puzzler.volia.net] has joined #lisp 15:59:57 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-99-89.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:01:23 danieljones [~danieljon@qld13-adsl-181.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 16:02:22 cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.139.95.133] has joined #lisp 16:02:40 Ragnaroek_ [~chatzilla@vpnsh0107.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 16:02:50 -!- tauntaun [~icarus@64.134.102.125] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 16:03:24 -!- setmeaway [setmeaway3@118.45.149.204] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:04:11 -!- silenius [~silenus@p4FC224F4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:07:57 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:12:18 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@180.172.53.36] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:14:57 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 16:15:02 -!- MrMC [~Adium@client199-22.wlan.hu-berlin.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:17:29 -!- Ragnaroek_ [~chatzilla@vpnsh0107.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:17:42 daniel__ [~daniel@p5082AC54.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:17:48 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 16:18:02 -!- mnau [~xc344@220.173.84.5] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:20:24 -!- Aiwass [~Aiwass4@188.26.203.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:21:06 -!- daniel_ [~daniel@p5B3273E6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:21:30 Raykon [~user@bl14-235-10.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 16:23:50 redline6561 [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:24:29 Ragnaroek_ [~chatzilla@p5B0C69D7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:25:11 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 16:27:53 -!- Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:28:05 for any windoze users in here, what CL implementation do you prefer? 16:28:38 if i were to use windows, i'd try clozure cl first 16:30:10 rme [~rme@pool-70-105-118-12.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:30:43 -!- zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:31:55 zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:37:10 TippenEin [~chatzilla@97.65.218.3] has joined #lisp 16:40:36 setmeaway [setmeaway3@118.45.149.204] has joined #lisp 16:43:35 spdr-: assume 9e9 people, involved in a commercial exchange with each other. That's 81e18 commercial exchanges, so you have to do 324e18 sums and 81e18 multiplications (assuming we compute taxes). With rationals that would take 16:44:24 ...followed by the Kalyanov/Kovalenko sbcl branches for win32 16:44:31 your message broke at "With rationals that would take" 16:44:41 speaking of, I should try to install that on my machine (: 16:45:20 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442099.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:45:38 psilord [~psilord@ppp-70-226-174-213.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 16:45:40 grr [~5d8d7754@ns1.smartcall.bg] has joined #lisp 16:50:20 pjb: That would take you to the correct result? :P 16:50:55 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279634070.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 16:51:43 -!- Raykon [~user@bl14-235-10.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:51:50 drdo: the trick is that for accounting, you always have ratios of the same number: 1, 100, 1000, and a few others. So the rationals don't grow big. 16:52:44 pjb: I missed spdr-'s question 16:55:30 SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 16:56:20 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 16:56:23 -!- astoon [~chatzilla@178-16-146-17.obit.ru] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.85 [SeaMonkey 2.0.4/20100402161724]] 16:57:32 -!- Ragnaroek_ [~chatzilla@p5B0C69D7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:59:07 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:01:47 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:02:02 mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:55 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-25.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:04:57 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5B0C69D7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:07:08 Soulman1 [~knute@250.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 17:08:46 cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-66-212-239.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 17:17:57 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 17:21:38 muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 17:22:06 -!- c|mell [~cmell@216.112.110.88.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:22:16 -!- gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [] 17:22:58 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 17:23:31 c_arenz [~arenz@p5B2CBA8C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:26:17 -!- Spion__ [~spion@77.29.250.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:26:57 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:28:49 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:29:47 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:32:16 Hey guys, I'm given a set of arrays of doubles (all of equal length). I'm trying to figure out a good way to hash them. Any ideas? (for example, given an array, I could sum up all its elements and then mod it by the number of elements in the hash table, but this would be a bad hash because addition is commutative). 17:32:39 -!- leo2007 [~leo@th041142.ip.tsinghua.edu.cn] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:32:44 Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:34:18 mippymoe: I'd use a hash function that works on bits. Depending on the strength you need, murmurhash or md4/md5 could be enough. 17:34:59 seangrove [~user@adsl-69-228-190-230.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:36:29 are there any potential security issues with reading a list from a text file with read function? i thought about having a simple config file as just a list list. for example (:nick "grr" :server "irc.freenode.net") in text file. (setf *options* (read in)) (getf *options* :nick) => "grr" 17:36:45 grr: you'll want to bind *read-eval* to nil. 17:36:46 as just a lisp list* 17:37:34 a priori, that's not any more of a risk that leaving the same write access to your executables. 17:37:40 gigamonkey it's t and reading something like (+ 2 2) just returns '(+ 2 2), it's not evaluated. can it be evaluated somehow? 17:37:42 *than 17:37:49 grr: with #. 17:37:54 #.(execute-rm-rf) 17:37:56 grr, no it stops things like #.(do-evil-stuff) 17:38:01 ah 17:38:13 But, do you really want to stop the evil stuff? 17:38:20 pkhoung: I actually have to create my own, so it can be fairly shitty. It's for an undergrad project 17:38:29 I mean, a user should be able to do whatever he wants in his config file 17:39:18 drdo: depends on your threat model, I suppose. 17:39:50 It would be like emacs telling me i can't run code in my .emacs 17:40:09 And whether it's a human written config file or a file created by the program. 17:40:14 -!- pnq [~nick@AC811F03.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:40:50 -!- The_Fellow [~spider1@glida.mooo.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:41:11 francogrex [~user@109.130.188.79] has joined #lisp 17:41:36 blackwol` [~blackwolf@ool-45763541.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 17:41:40 grr: here's a macro I use for reading sexps intended to be 'data': http://paste.lisp.org/display/120908 17:41:43 The_Fellow [~spider1@glida.mooo.com] has joined #lisp 17:43:12 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@p5B2CBA8C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:43:28 -!- redline6561 [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:43:39 nice thanks 17:45:38 -!- blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-45763541.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:45:49 hargettp [~hargettp@96.237.121.111] has joined #lisp 17:46:08 mippymoe: well, if it doesn't have to be good: (constantly 1) ;-) 17:46:26 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-128-38.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:46:34 gigamonkey: what for is *print-case* line 17:46:37 -!- mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:46:53 adobriyan: I use it for both input and output. 17:46:53 SO THAT IT LOOKS PRETTY 17:48:38 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-170-221.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:49:43 srolls [~user@c-76-126-212-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:50:17 orivej [~orivej@host-118-146-66-217.spbmts.ru] has joined #lisp 17:50:23 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:52:27 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:54:16 -!- pok_ [~pok@tarrant.klingenberg.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:54:42 -!- Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:54:42 -!- twem2 [~tristan@puma-mxisp.mxtelecom.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:55:08 -!- herbie_ [~herbie@u15287329.onlinehome-server.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:55:09 pok [~pok@tarrant.klingenberg.no] has joined #lisp 17:55:27 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:56:00 herbie_ [~herbie@u15287329.onlinehome-server.com] has joined #lisp 17:58:36 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:59:04 "There were arguments in the Scheme community that said, well the point of Scheme is to figure out the right way to do it whereas the point of Common Lisp was you put any old junk into it." --Hal Abelson. 18:02:33 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-99-89.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:03:21 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-99-89.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:03:45 twem2 [~tristan@puma-mxisp.mxtelecom.com] has joined #lisp 18:04:46 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:04:49 olivier [~olivier@dra38-2-82-233-106-39.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:05:00 -!- olivier [~olivier@dra38-2-82-233-106-39.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:05:46 olivier [~olivier@dra38-2-82-233-106-39.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:07:42 -!- dRbiG [drbig@unhallowed.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:07:50 tcr [~tcr@77.135.16.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:08:08 sonnym [~sonny@184.74.137.167] has joined #lisp 18:08:30 dRbiG [drbig@unhallowed.pl] has joined #lisp 18:09:03 -!- carbocal` [~user@38.99.165.166] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:12:22 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.188.79] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:13:19 Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:13:24 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:13:48 -!- Joreji [~thomas@85-183.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:15:48 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-128-38.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:16:18 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host102-184-dynamic.6-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:16:47 any ole junk in the trunk 18:17:23 *JuanDaugherty* discovered steatopygia yesterday. 18:18:58 -!- mornfall [~mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:19:28 -!- rootzlevel [~hpd@188-195-186-112-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:19:50 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@c-69-181-1-27.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 18:20:17 mornfall [~mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #lisp 18:20:20 -!- mornfall [~mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has quit [Changing host] 18:20:20 mornfall [~mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has joined #lisp 18:21:48 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 18:24:58 JuanDaugherty: genes are not your friends. 18:25:29 apparently 18:25:43 at least not all the time 18:26:08 JuanDaugherty: they're for the survival of the specie, not the survival of the individual. 18:28:17 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-128-38.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:31:19 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:33:57 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:36:14 akshally, pjb, from my perspective. they are neither, they just are 18:36:40 -!- borkaman` [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:36:56 borkaman` [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 18:37:07 rien 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[~spider1@glida.mooo.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:50:51 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:52:08 killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has joined #lisp 18:52:17 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:53:07 -!- muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:54:48 emporas_ [~emporas@athedsl-173648.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 18:55:09 aintme [~user@125.36.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:55:36 -!- emporas [~emporas@athedsl-169325.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:55:42 meandi [~meandi@dyndsl-178-142-051-038.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #lisp 18:56:03 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-99-89.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 18:56:32 -!- coryallegory [judyjenkin@net-e1-043.cc.umanitoba.ca] has quit [] 18:57:17 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-39-6-229.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:58:09 mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:59:56 muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 19:01:18 -!- tcr [~tcr@77.135.16.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:03:34 thom_logn [~thom@pool-74-100-140-188.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:06:53 pvaneynd1 [~pvaneynd@77.109.102.182] has joined #lisp 19:06:54 nixfreak [~nixfreak@mn-10k-dhcp1-3174.dsl.hickorytech.net] has joined #lisp 19:07:10 does anyone know how to enable threading using CLISP 19:07:27 -!- st-2451 [~st-2451@a89-154-147-132.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:07:34 tried running weblocks and got a msg saying , it won't run without threading turned on 19:08:16 nixfreak: as far as I know, clisp doesn't support threading 19:08:48 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-162-124.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:08:49 nixfreak: clisp supports threading, as a beta feature. 19:09:14 damn 19:09:18 st-7097 [~st-7097@a89-154-147-132.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 19:09:27 tcr [~tcr@116.134.16.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 19:09:27 nixfreak: you have to compile it explicitely with the threading option, and then, you have to be prepared to deal with bugs, and be careful with accessing implementation data structures. 19:09:30 and I have it setup for slime and quicklisp 19:09:32 -!- pvaneynd [~pvaneynd@109.236.139.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:09:50 nixfreak: You could consider using SBCL or Clozure CL instead. Both are free implementations of Common Lisp. 19:10:05 and support native threading (and I would assume, Weblocks) 19:10:10 nixfreak: if you really need threads in 2011, yes, ccl or sbcl would be better. 19:10:18 k thx guys 19:10:25 -!- adobriyan [~ad@vulture-nat-37.telecom.by] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:10:28 I guess after google summer, clisp multithreading will be closer to ready to use. 19:10:47 but who will need them in 2012? 19:10:49 surprised it doesn't have it sense sbcl does 19:11:03 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 19:11:27 -!- Yuuhi` [benni@p54839E03.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:11:34 Yuuhi` [benni@p54839E03.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:11:49 stassats: cockroaches. They'll probably be smarter to use lisp than us, globally, after 2012, I guess, if that's what you mean. 19:11:50 omgz0r_ [~omgz0r@S010600119502eca3.wp.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:12:41 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-163-46.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:14:18 -!- omgz0r [~omgz0r@S010600119502eca3.wp.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:14:18 -!- omgz0r_ is now known as omgz0r 19:15:44 i didn't really mean that, though i had it in mind 19:16:49 -!- meandi [~meandi@dyndsl-178-142-051-038.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Quit: meandi] 19:18:11 -!- st-7097 [~st-7097@a89-154-147-132.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:20:01 david` [~david@ec2-174-129-245-152.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 19:20:34 why does this not work: (let (text "blah blah")) 19:21:00 Because "blah blah" is not the name of a variable because it's not a symbol. 19:21:02 because "blah blah" is not a symbol 19:21:04 st-7523 [~st-7523@a89-154-147-132.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 19:21:26 what's the macro for a string "blah blah" 19:21:27 david`: You probably mean (let ((text "blah blah")) 19:21:31 -!- seangrove [~user@adsl-69-228-190-230.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:21:33 ahh 19:21:34 thanks 19:21:40 david`: the fundamental reason is that let allows you to define multiple variables, not a single one. 19:21:47 So it takes a list of bindings, not a single one. 19:22:07 pjb: thanks! 19:22:13 pjb: I'd say it's more than LET wants to let you have NIL-bound variables with minimal effort, so it can't just use a plist. 19:22:17 pjb: but it could very well take them in plist form 19:22:19 Since bindings can be lists, you must have a list of lists, even if there's a single binding. 19:22:33 that's fixed in Arc 19:22:41 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:22:53 drdo: it could but since we ant to skip the value when it's nil, it cannot. (let (a b c) (list a b c)) --> (NIL NIL NIL) 19:23:01 *sykopomp* kinda likes plist-let. 19:23:12 pjb: How often do you do that? 19:23:19 compared to how often you don't 19:23:23 there's your answer 19:23:24 *stassats* does that quite often 19:23:54 drdo: NIL-binding is pretty common for certain patterns. 19:24:07 iwillig [~ivan@ool-18b944f4.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 19:24:09 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.236.181] has joined #lisp 19:24:10 though i would be as happy to do (a) (b) (c) 19:24:14 sykopomp: But it is not the most common 19:24:29 and writing var nil isn't that bad 19:24:56 drdo: I don't know. Like I said, I like plist-let, but it's not like it's a crime against humanity to have LET as it is. May as well live with it. :) 19:25:06 drdo: it depends on the programming style. Personnaly, I tend to avoid procedural, so I only bind when I have a value. But in the old times they did more procedural and SETQ so it was useful. 19:25:29 sykopomp: Sure it's not horrible, i'm just arguing that the alternative is better 19:25:45 and it maps well to other constructs in Common Lisp that use var vs (var binding) -- such as &key/&optional/&aux. 19:25:51 drdo: no, it's not! 19:26:00 stassats: Why? 19:26:09 i don't like it 19:26:23 Oh that's a pretty good reason, i'm converted 19:26:31 if stassats says so! 19:26:48 drdo: as good as your reason 19:26:56 It's not that much important. But perhaps drdo may write a package for newbies. Perhaps a plist let would prove needing less explainations. 19:27:02 That's the beuty of Lisp. stassats likes imperative code, drdo likes functional one. And they both write it in Lisp. 19:27:11 pjb: It's not about newbies at all 19:27:13 Isn't the teacher friendly lisp called scheme? 19:27:13 ;) 19:27:32 what a bunch of baloney, i don't like imperative code 19:27:49 stassats: If you don't like imperative code, why do you like the current form of let? 19:27:58 yeah, scheme is teacher friendly, students can't cheat with LOOP ;-) 19:28:04 stassats: I was guessing. Guess I guessed wrong. 19:28:06 drdo: i don't understand how is it imperative? 19:28:17 -!- grr [~5d8d7754@ns1.smartcall.bg] has quit [Quit: CGI:IRC (EOF)] 19:28:32 stassats: The only advantage of the current syntax is being able to declare nil bound variables with a single word 19:28:46 stassats: If you do (let (a)...) you know a would be nil. Why do you give yet another name to a constant. 19:28:58 That's mostly used to write imperative code 19:29:01 Either that or you're going to modify it. 19:29:31 i can read it too 19:29:40 ? 19:29:42 But it will be nIL 19:29:51 i quite often do that for special variables 19:29:59 (let (*print-pretty*) ...) 19:31:02 -!- olivier [~olivier@dra38-2-82-233-106-39.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 19:31:06 -!- cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.139.95.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:31:34 -!- TippenEin [~chatzilla@97.65.218.3] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 3.6.13/20101203075014]] 19:31:55 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-20-53.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:33:38 in Arc, it's (let x 'y ...) 19:34:27 It has WITH 19:34:35 The equivalent of plist-let 19:34:45 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.236.181] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:34:47 I don't agree with that at all 19:34:52 I don't see the point 19:35:11 (let x 1 ...) and (let (x 1) ...) aren't very different at all 19:35:18 I'd even argue the second one is easier to read 19:35:38 (let ((x 1)) ...) is easy to read 19:35:57 but (let (x 1) ...) is easier 19:35:59 and easier to type too 19:36:16 i don't read parenthesis 19:36:17 If you have only one variable, then you're doing something wrong. 19:36:39 stassats: but you sure as hell type them 19:37:12 i can type them alright 19:37:20 milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 19:37:35 It's not a huge deal, but i prefer the plist form 19:37:44 iesahin [~user@88.240.88.14] has joined #lisp 19:37:45 and i don't! 19:37:55 and you are stupid and ugly! 19:37:56 -!- muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:38:16 oh well... 19:38:26 drdo: no, i still don't like it 19:38:30 :( 19:39:26 how about (progv (x y z) (1 2 3))? 19:39:27 hi, newbie here 19:39:34 what's the problem with http://pastebin.com/srp2CvKQ 19:39:50 I like this one in my backtracke: Nihil ex nihil. (can't set SYMBOL-VALUE of NIL) 19:39:56 well, quoted, in case of progv 19:40:06 -!- st-7523 [~st-7523@a89-154-147-132.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:40:11 I want to get the file contents, but it doesn't 19:40:15 carlocci [~nes@93.37.193.218] has joined #lisp 19:40:17 but i mean let in the vein of PROGV 19:40:39 iesahin: The result of that is "" 19:40:42 yep 19:40:44 iesahin, accu is not changed in your code. 19:40:53 iesahin: You never change it 19:40:57 concatenate doesn't destroy? 19:41:04 (setf accu (concatenate ...)) 19:41:14 ok, I see, thanks 19:42:19 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:42:50 st-7869 [~st-7869@a89-154-147-132.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 19:43:14 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@83.240.225.146] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 19:44:25 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-183-232.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 19:46:24 -!- st-7869 [~st-7869@a89-154-147-132.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:46:37 jokoon [~zonax@feu30-1-82-242-58-229.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:53:12 st-7943 [~st-7943@a89-154-147-132.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 19:53:54 iesahin: even functions that destroy don't do what you want. In general you will have to take the result. 19:57:33 -!- st-7943 [~st-7943@a89-154-147-132.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:59:40 st-8196 [~st-8196@a89-154-147-132.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 19:59:48 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-119-84.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:59:55 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:00:00 kennyd_ [~kennyd@93-138-241-248.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 20:00:00 -!- spdr- [~spdr-@76.73.16.26] has quit [Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout)] 20:00:20 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:03:35 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 20:05:04 s0ber_ [~s0ber@111-240-167-52.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 20:06:26 -!- azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:06:26 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-170-131.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:06:41 -!- s0ber_ is now known as s0ber 20:08:09 azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has joined #lisp 20:11:53 -!- spilman [~spilman@ARennes-552-1-109-10.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: .] 20:12:20 -!- kennyd_ [~kennyd@93-138-241-248.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:12:43 -!- Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: omghaahhahaohwow] 20:14:04 Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 20:14:34 pjb: thanks. is there an easier/faster for this common idiom? 20:14:53 *easier/faster way 20:14:56 -!- keyvan [~keyvan@ip68-5-13-232.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:15:53 -!- mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:17:59 kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-113-0.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 20:19:30 iesahin: in some cases, there's a macro to do the updating. Eg. (incf x n) for (setf x (+ x n)). You can use define-modify-macro to define other such macros. The clhs gives for example appendf so instead of writing (setf l1 (append l1 l2)) you can write (appendf l1 l2). 20:19:54 iesahin: but the easier way is NOT to modify your data. Adopt a functional programming style. 20:20:13 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-0-14.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 20:20:21 iesahin: it'll be all the more important in the coming years that processors multiply their cores. 20:20:28 pjb: I mean "reading text file" idiom 20:20:54 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 20:21:20 Oh! I've got a couple of such functions in my libraries too. 20:21:23 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-183-232.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:21:30 There's nothing easier or faster than calling a function. 20:21:31 pjb: mixing functional/imperative causes my mind to mix 20:21:47 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:24:43 pjb: Inlined functions are easier and faster! 20:24:56 (Well, faster, at least.) 20:24:57 but they're still called. 20:25:02 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 20:25:13 How is none of my concerns, I have compilers to deal with those details. 20:25:53 ... That must be nice. I distinctly remember messing with how function calling works in SBCL. 20:25:59 I would prefer ! at the end of functions with side effects 20:26:07 Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-99-105.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 20:26:12 iesahin: If you want scheme, you know where to find it. :-p 20:26:19 #scheme is that way 20:26:21 iesahin: side effect is in the eyes of the beholder. 20:26:23 gz [~gz@138.sub-75-192-5.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 20:26:23 that way, it might be easier to recognize :) 20:26:30 minion: tell iesahin about sicp 20:26:31 iesahin: look at sicp: The Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs, a CS textbook using Scheme. Available under the CC-BY-NC Licence at (HTML), (Texinfo), and (PDF). Video lectures are available under the CC-BY-SA licence at 20:26:54 I programmed in Scheme years ago 20:26:56 mattrepl [~mattrepl@99.13.242.166] has joined #lisp 20:26:57 iesahin: Besides, the convention is to prefix function names with #\n when they are permitted to side-effect their arguments. 20:27:00 iesahin: it's not about scheme. In sicp you may learn how mutation can be abstracted away. 20:27:18 nyef: that's not that. 20:27:26 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-0-14.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:27:34 pjb: I'll take a look at 20:27:38 pjb: I know, I know... NSUBST, though? 20:27:47 NREVERSE? 20:27:58 -!- psilord [~psilord@ppp-70-226-174-213.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has left #lisp 20:28:11 (defun nreverse (list) (reverse list)) is allowed. 20:28:13 NCONC is my favorite when pronounced 20:28:25 (Yes, the #\N really means "non-consing", but still...) 20:28:26 Quadrescence: how do you pronounce it? 20:28:31 n-konk? 20:28:35 yes 20:28:44 (loop ... nconcing ...) 20:30:09 spilman [~spilman@ARennes-552-1-109-10.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:30:42 beach: Do you have any papers or anything on your bit reversal? 20:33:14 Quadrescence: there's an article about efficient bit vector handling/implementing. 20:33:29 pjb: that's not the question. 20:33:58 on Henry Baker's web site, or http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=121991&dl=ACM&coll=DL&CFID=13337520&CFTOKEN=42497290 20:34:05 pjb: Beach specifically made a fast (the fastest (still?)) way to do bit reversal for fast Fourier transforms 20:34:12 ok. 20:34:44 I can do it in O(1) too... 20:35:04 pjb: Modulo cache effects, or for large values of 1? 20:35:09 pjb: that's a useless metric for FFT. 20:36:32 nyef: you could say cache effects, yes. My first thought is to go thru a table. 20:36:41 -!- gz [~gz@138.sub-75-192-5.myvzw.com] has left #lisp 20:36:44 That'd be the cache-effect version, yes. 20:37:12 Well, for bytes the table would take 4 L1 cache lines. 20:37:47 So, possibly not horribly expensive cache effects, but cache effects nonetheless. 20:38:11 On some processors, you could even keep the table in registers!!! 20:38:43 ... only processor that comes to mind where you could do that is the Raven CPU. 20:38:50 Quadrescence: I think is it. The bit-reversal is implicit, via recursive calls. 20:39:07 Hrm. Maybe some of the MCUs like the Z8 or PIC family... 20:39:09 and the MIIX too :-) 20:39:11 zonax9 [~zonax@feu30-1-82-242-58-229.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 20:39:16 milkpost [~milkpost@66.102.210.93] has joined #lisp 20:39:19 MMIX I mean. 20:39:23 tfb [~tfb@92.41.15.27.threembb.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:39:43 -!- Areil [~Areil@123.20.31.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:39:53 Of course, you /wouldn't/ do it on the Raven, as it has an ALU output control that bit-reverses the data. 20:41:39 tauntaun [~icarus@ool-457c37c3.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 20:42:37 LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-119-109.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:42:44 -!- spilman [~spilman@ARennes-552-1-109-10.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #lisp 20:43:03 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:43:20 Areil [~Areil@113.172.60.44] has joined #lisp 20:43:27 -!- jokoon [~zonax@feu30-1-82-242-58-229.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:45:25 gz_ [~gz@216.141.82.2] has joined #lisp 20:46:08 gz__ [~gz@216.141.82.130] has joined #lisp 20:46:17 paul0 [~user@187.112.88.214] has joined #lisp 20:46:21 jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-25.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:46:27 -!- gz__ [~gz@216.141.82.130] has left #lisp 20:46:42 -!- larva_ is now known as larva 20:47:03 -!- gz_ [Clozure@clozure-4F28F494.sub-75-192-5.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout] 20:47:36 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 20:49:32 -!- gz_ [~gz@216.141.82.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:49:43 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-112-50.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 20:51:46 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-25.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:51:53 -!- Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-99-105.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:51:57 -!- zonax9 is now known as jokoon 20:53:23 Quadrescence: I'm probably wrong, actually. ISTR the trick was to embrace recursion instead of relying on bit hacks. 20:54:16 -!- Boriskr [~Boriskr@95.104.243.255] has quit [] 20:54:34 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.236.181] has joined #lisp 20:55:42 (which actually looks like the way bx-fft changes the stride on recursive calls) 20:56:03 pkhuong: yeah clearly you know nothing about lisp and you should probably just give up 20:56:15 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:57:34 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-193-241-28.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:57:36 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 20:58:55 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-112-50.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:00:56 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 21:01:26 -!- euphidime [u178@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ywwlkxhurbsiswtr] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 21:02:12 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-113-0.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:02:58 euphidime [u178@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-umsexgavmqarlyxb] has joined #lisp 21:03:46 -!- aintme [~user@125.36.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has left #lisp 21:04:43 -!- azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:07:15 thanks for reminding me of that issue. I have one or two ideas to try on bx-fft now. 21:07:21 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@96.237.121.111] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 21:07:48 -!- tauntaun [~icarus@ool-457c37c3.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:07:59 azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has joined #lisp 21:10:40 -!- Yamazaki-kun [~bsa3@2001:ba8:1f1:f0ed:216:5eff:fe00:16b] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:11:00 kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-179-165.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 21:11:31 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-78-210.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 21:12:46 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.236.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:13:17 Why are unhygenic macros a good idea again? 21:13:27 Yamazaki-kun [~bsa3@2001:ba8:1f1:f0ed:216:5eff:fe00:16b] has joined #lisp 21:15:45 because you can do both 21:16:08 (the obvious problem being local functions) 21:16:43 -!- dmytrish [~dmytrish@inherent.puzzler.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:17:49 stassats: How can you do both in CL? 21:19:50 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-179-165.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:20:38 glidesurfer [~rosario@77-64-171-36.dynamic.primacom.net] has joined #lisp 21:20:55 oudeis [~oudeis@82.166.248.14] has joined #lisp 21:21:00 kennyd_ [~kennyd@78-0-246-229.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 21:21:22 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@66.102.210.93] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 21:21:31 milkpost [~milkpost@web30.webfaction.com] has joined #lisp 21:21:33 stassats: eagerly waiting for the answer! 21:22:32 francogrex [~user@109.130.188.79] has joined #lisp 21:23:49 hi 21:23:58 my circuit solver program is almost done! 21:25:00 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@82.166.248.14] has quit [Client Quit] 21:25:22 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl22-62-232.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 21:25:35 I've done a major release to include subcircuits handling. This was necessary to provide a way to describe electrical machines or electronic stuffs to the suer 21:26:01 drdo: by being careful 21:26:58 stassats: I don't see how you can fake hygienic macrolet. 21:27:03 stassats: How is that an advantage? 21:27:40 I have to read macro source to make sure i don't locally rebind functions it might use 21:27:48 Not to mention sources change 21:28:23 stassats: I'm very happy I was able to do it in lisp :) I was never successful in c/c++ :) because I never had time, Lisp is less time consuming than c/c++ to develop projects 21:30:14 drdo: you can always use global functions 21:30:17 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5B0C548D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:30:32 but i've never seen such problem coming up 21:30:35 stassats: I can always work around anything 21:30:45 seangrove [~user@adsl-69-228-190-230.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 21:30:47 The question is, why should i have to? 21:31:12 don't get too much caught up in theories 21:31:42 it's no theory 21:31:48 they exist :P 21:31:51 just not in CL 21:32:02 who exist? 21:32:08 hygenic macros 21:32:18 hargettp [~hargettp@96.237.121.111] has joined #lisp 21:32:30 i didn't call them theoretical 21:32:41 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:32:54 i say that the described problem with local function doesn't come up in practice 21:33:18 stassats: It hasn't come up to you by mere chance 21:33:28 And if it does come up, it can be extremelly hard to find 21:33:37 redefining already existing function functions locally isn't such a grand idea per se 21:34:01 redline6561 [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:34:14 stassats: So i should make sure i memorize every function in a package i'm using? 21:34:20 drdo: i choose not to get caught up in theories of what might go wrong 21:35:15 stassats: I was hoping you would make the case for cl macros 21:35:23 Because i honestly don't see any advantage 21:35:29 that's why using package isn't such a grand idea too 21:35:45 s/package/packages/ 21:36:18 of course i'm going to use packages 21:36:49 except in special cases 21:36:54 well, then you'd have to memorize every exported symbol 21:37:10 stassats: I know 21:37:14 The question i'm asking is 21:37:15 thus defeating the purpose of the package system 21:37:24 Why is having all this trouble a benefit? 21:37:56 a) there is no trouble b) sometimes you may want to do so on purpose 21:38:11 stassats: Sure you might 21:38:18 It's analogous to special variables 21:38:48 It's exactly the same kind of problem 21:40:02 But, that's why functions and macros have parameters 21:40:49 the problem with special variables is perfectly solve by using ear-muffs 21:41:03 sure 21:41:08 but the macro one isn't 21:41:47 not to mention that this problem is the primary reason why we have Lisp-2 21:42:22 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-39-6-229.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:42:31 i'm happy without it being solved 21:42:32 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@96.237.121.111] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com] 21:42:39 if you want scheme, you know where to find it 21:43:14 besides, not using macros much is a healthy thing 21:43:44 Well, sure, macros are mainly for syntax 21:43:47 Mococa [~Mococa@189.115.151.223] has joined #lisp 21:44:51 tauntaun [~icarus@64.134.102.125] has joined #lisp 21:48:28 -!- kennyd_ [~kennyd@78-0-246-229.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:52:00 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-102-210.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 21:53:08 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:54:24 Ragnaroek_ [~chatzilla@vpnsh0090.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 21:54:37 -!- st-8196 [~st-8196@a89-154-147-132.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:56:07 mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 21:56:07 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 21:56:07 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 21:57:15 -!- Ragnaroek_ [~chatzilla@vpnsh0090.fh-trier.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:05:08 -!- zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:08:30 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-102-210.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:11:20 zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:12:00 kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-174-241.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 22:13:06 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 22:14:38 hi again. now, (ccl:external-call "add" :integer 3 :integer 3 :integer) works 22:14:59 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.188.79] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:15:22 but (apply #'ccl:external-call "add" (:integer 3 :integer 3 :integer)) says it can't find external-call 22:15:53 it's a macro 22:15:59 (describe 'ccl:external-call) will probably say it's a macro or similar. 22:16:38 then, should I put a lambda there? 22:17:29 what do you want to do? 22:17:53 -!- |nix|` [~user@66-194-253-20.static.twtelecom.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:18:08 Ye gods, how did -anyone- think that nevermore was an exemplar of well-written code? 22:18:20 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-174-241.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:18:48 I'm trying to write a defun/macro that takes method-name arg-list and return-type and calls external call 22:19:30 ccl:external-call is such a macro, isn't it? 22:20:11 it is, but I need splicing, and writing a macro it complained 22:20:13 ... what do you do about argument types, though? 22:20:30 about second argument not being a list 22:20:45 let me put somewhere and get back 22:20:52 lisppaste: url? 22:21:12 -!- seangrove [~user@adsl-69-228-190-230.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:21:21 *nyef* sighs. 22:21:36 Didn't take long for lisppaste to get booted again, did it? 22:21:52 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5B0C548D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:22:22 lisppaste [~lisppaste@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 22:22:41 it's here: http://pastebin.com/EFqhvxxL 22:22:43 lisppaste: url? 22:22:44 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 22:22:48 Much better. 22:23:00 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-61-150.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 22:23:23 ... did you try ,arg-list instead of ,@arg-list? 22:23:50 Or even (,@arg-list ,return-type) ? 22:24:33 but external-call expects (external-call name &rest args) 22:24:44 iesahin: and what's wrong with old? 22:24:48 Hrm. 22:25:06 Okay, I give up, beyond the comment that MACROEXPAND-1 is possibly your friend. 22:25:12 what's wrong with ccl:external-call itself that you need to wrap it into something else? 22:25:26 trigen_ [~ray@87.209.144.213] has joined #lisp 22:25:27 st-8942 [~st-8942@a89-154-147-132.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 22:25:43 -!- trigen_ [~ray@87.209.144.213] has left #lisp 22:25:45 -!- borkaman` [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:26:06 borkaman` [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:27:47 Let me show the context: http://pastebin.com/GmWnMkF5 22:28:39 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-61-150.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:29:08 why do you need that? 22:29:31 stassats: argument types of functions are read from somewhere 22:29:53 being :integer or :float 22:30:17 they are zipped together with values 22:30:27 the problem is trivial 22:30:45 but it says arg-list is needed to be list 22:31:23 it would be more trivial if you understood how macros work 22:31:50 stassats: sure 22:33:00 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-41-189.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 22:33:31 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-157-151.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 22:33:56 rootzlevel [~hpd@188-195-186-112-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 22:35:24 iesahin: How is the information defined for get-method-name-arity-hash to retrieve it? 22:35:27 -!- pds [~shelta@shpd-92-101-131-212.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:36:18 tcr: it's a hash table of plists 22:36:27 if your ffi facility of choice doesn't provide a functional interface, you might be forced to use EVAL 22:36:35 iesahin: You might have to store a closure instead which calls external-call instead 22:37:06 I can probably do these in a rather ugly way 22:37:25 tcr: plists are of the form: (:id 123 :filename "mydll.dll" :method-name "add" :return-type :integer :arity 2 :argument-types '(:integer :integer)) 22:38:41 tcr: zip-list works fine, it returns lists 22:39:28 -!- st-8942 [~st-8942@a89-154-147-132.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:40:12 how about (defun zip-list (list-1 list-2) (mapcan #'list list-1 list-2)) ? 22:41:09 -!- azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:41:42 rolando [~user@56.121.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 22:41:53 stassats: that's better for sure, it's my first week so I'm still naive about map varieties 22:41:59 or (defun zip-list-2 (list-1 list-2) (loop for i1 in list-1 for i2 in list-2 collect i1 collect i2)) 22:42:05 could be faster 22:45:09 i had a typo in my asd file which unsurprisingly caused 'failed to find the TRUENAME of /tmp/package.lisp: no such file or directory' (i specified "package.lisp" instead of "package")... so, i fix the typo but unless i restart sbcl i keep getting that truename error. Is there a way to handle this from the repl? 22:45:47 derrida: (asdf:clear-system 'system-name) 22:45:58 did you do C-c C-c on the defsystem form? 22:46:18 stassats: yes 22:46:32 well, don't do that 22:46:52 Xach: awesome, thanks! :) 22:47:00 stassats: hehe, why is that though? 22:47:37 C-c C-c creates a temporary file in /tmp, which is then fed to COMPILE-FILE, and it gets asdf confused 22:47:37 -!- ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 22:47:56 argh, i always forget that! it's bit me before 22:47:58 a7p [a7p@9.83.238.89.in-addr.arpa.manitu.net] has joined #lisp 22:49:22 just write defsystem instead of asdf:defsystem, then it just wouldn't get compiled 22:49:55 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-163-46.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:50:05 assuming that you're not creating a package for an .asd file, which you shouldn't really do 22:50:39 that's a good idea, (no, i'm not) 22:53:26 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-41-189.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:55:47 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:56:30 kennyd [~kennyd@93-136-52-105.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 22:58:46 EarlGray [~dmytrish@inherent.puzzler.volia.net] has joined #lisp 23:06:03 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755f2b.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:06:15 francogrex [~francogre@109.130.188.79] has joined #lisp 23:08:47 spilman [~spilman@ARennes-552-1-109-10.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 23:09:23 Ah, I'm so glad to see that another of Marty Hall's out-of-date pages is the top hit when you Google "best lisp book": 23:10:21 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:14:39 -!- francogrex [~francogre@109.130.188.79] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:15:06 Areil` [~Areil@123.21.161.210] has joined #lisp 23:16:16 -!- glidesurfer [~rosario@77-64-171-36.dynamic.primacom.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:16:38 -!- Areil [~Areil@113.172.60.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:21:49 gigamonkey: aw man. that site deserves to die 23:22:30 mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:25:46 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@99.13.242.166] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:26:06 mattrepl [~mattrepl@99.13.242.166] has joined #lisp 23:26:20 antifuchs: yeah. 23:27:02 you know, we *could* do some gray/blackhat seo stuff 23:27:23 antifuchs: some kind of reverse Google bomb? 23:27:42 well, things like setting up sites that talk about lisp and link to current books 23:27:43 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-51-60.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:28:02 The "lisp tutorial" google bomb was reasonably effective. 23:28:08 google bombs are hard to do nowadays without pages in multiple domains, with unique content each 23:28:24 since then they have updated their ranking twice (: 23:28:34 Which is why the "lisp tutorial" bomb worked--lots of folks from all over linked to PCL. 23:28:37 that is, fundamentally changed their ranking algorithms (: 23:28:40 right 23:28:59 Though ~hall is still #3 for "lisp tutorial" 23:29:43 It's kind of an interesting problem: there must be a whole bunch of stale pages about Lisp, most of which link to ~hall. 23:29:54 How to drain the Google juice away from that whole dead network of pages. 23:30:16 there is no way to do that 23:30:23 they all have original content that has been around for ages 23:30:26 Is it simply a matter of there not being enough non-stale Lisp pages in existence? 23:30:28 google /loves/ these pages 23:30:40 all we can do is provide new content that links to new pages 23:30:44 google loves those even more (: 23:30:59 Okay, so newer is better, all other things being equal. 23:31:08 /original/ is better 23:31:22 google does a lot to find out which page was there first and rank that up 23:31:34 so repeated phrases in multiple pages are a no-no 23:31:53 (god, what things you pick up working in a content mill for a year) (: 23:32:09 you can translate it with google translate several times back and forth! 23:32:20 nope 23:32:26 mechanical turk will work, though 23:32:33 it's so clever? 23:32:35 and I believe several content mills use that 23:32:43 Though I suppose part of the problem is that there aren't a ton of better pages to link to. (I.e. lisp.org is still a wasteland.) 23:32:44 you don't think they are? 23:32:52 indeed 23:33:10 Oh, hey, lisp.org isn't pee-yellow anymore! 23:33:21 (fun fact: google will also consider the age of the domain handle in whois) (: 23:33:29 whoa 23:33:48 Though speaking of stupid, stale pages, look at the first item on: http://lisp.org/alu/res-lisp-education 23:33:54 wow, franz is nowhere on the list of sponsors (: 23:34:05 god help us 23:34:18 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:34:23 hahaha, it links to "practical lisp programming" 23:34:29 gigamonkey: yeah, reworking that would be a really good idea 23:34:33 So that's an argument for someone forcibly taking over the ALU to get the lisp.org domain into competent hands. 23:35:02 I wonder if elliott has control over that server 23:35:04 The plan was floated 23:35:05 antifuchs: though to be fair (?) part of the reason the lisp.org content is so stale is due to the "evil person deleting the server" thing that happened a few years ago. 23:35:26 yeah. I hear all sorts of horrible tales about ALU web hosting 23:35:32 it all seems very awful 23:36:31 Though anybody thinking of trying to take over an organization by force should listen to the This American Life Episode about the Amalgamated Order of Real-Beared Santas. 23:36:34 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:39:40 heh, I will (: 23:41:10 gadek [~konrad@62.121.148.46] has joined #lisp 23:44:04 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:44:06 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 23:44:44 mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 23:44:44 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 23:44:44 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 23:45:20 drdo: Try as I might, I'm unable to comprehend the value proposition of so-called, preposterously-named "hygienic" macros. :( 23:46:14 You were talking about local functions earlier... What's hard about gensym?? 23:46:17 -!- malbertife [~marcoalbe@bl5-19-133.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: malbertife] 23:46:18 Hexstream: they have some value in Scheme because they lack split namespaces and gensym 23:47:13 codelurker [~codelurke@66.71.230.192] has joined #lisp 23:47:13 Oh yeah, someone mentioned that "unhygienic" macros "is the reason we have a lisp-2". I thought it also had a lot to do with being able to call a list LIST and stuff? 23:47:23 Hexstream: drdo was talking about (flet ((fancy-function ())) (macro-which-expands-into-a-fancy-function-call)) 23:47:30 -!- nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:48:07 stassats: That's the reason you can't locally shadow CL operators... (as you know) 23:48:53 i don't know that it's specifically is the reason 23:48:53 I wrote tons of macros and somehow never had that problem, as far as I can remember... 23:49:19 Hexstream: But you can shadow any other function that's not in the CL package 23:49:41 stassats: Also that compiler-macros and such being able to test for (and (consp form) (eq (car form) 'constantly)) and such is another reason. 23:49:43 It has nothing to do with gensym 23:50:20 drdo: Yeah, I see what the issue is now. 23:51:06 I still think the simplicity and power of "unhygienic" macros is preferable over that more complicated hygienic facility. 23:51:37 They aren't more powerful 23:51:39 Just simpler 23:52:08 drdo: Intentional capture is sometimes useful. Can you do that with "hygienic" macros? 23:52:15 sure 23:52:18 *stassats* saw that discussion somewhere already 23:52:41 stassats: Then you'd better point me to it? 23:53:51 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-128-38.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:54:16 Kernel's fexprs seem to give a best-of-both-worlds-and-more approach to hygiene. 23:54:35 kernel's fexprs are really nice 23:54:53 The problem is that you pay the cost in runtime 23:55:11 except you don't necessarily! 23:55:16 -!- codelurker [~codelurke@66.71.230.192] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 23:55:42 sykopomp: I maybe be overlooking something, but how would you write a compiler that can do that? 23:55:52 drdo: partial evaluation. 23:55:56 -!- jokoon [~zonax@feu30-1-82-242-58-229.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:56:21 Isn't that the definition of compilation? ;) 23:56:35 drdo: afaict, in all cases where you could macroexpand, you could inline an fexpr. 23:56:35 sykopomp: Please continue, i'm really interested 23:56:40 i know the most hygienic macro system: no macros at all 23:56:44 so the cost ends up being the same as macros. 23:57:00 macros are only confusing things 23:57:08 sykopomp: The problem is not the cost of calling it 23:57:18 drdo: Ah, I get it now. Local functions usually have small clashy names that are not exported from the package, and usually you'll either have the macro and the macrocall in different packages (so no capture conflict), or you're in the same package so you know not to shadow the function (so no conflict either). That's why it's such a non-issue. 23:57:20 drdo: You have to expand macros, too, you know. 23:57:24 sure 23:57:33 but the function doing the expansion runs at compile time 23:57:40 so is partial evaluation. 23:57:58 the compiler inlines the 'expansion' of the fexpr, just like macroexpansion, when it knows it can. 23:58:03 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-128-38.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:58:07 sykopomp: Care to give an example? I'm not getting it 23:59:00 Hexstream: It's not an issue most of the time, but it can be, and when it is, it might be an extremelly hard to find bug 23:59:09 ($define! reverse ($vau expression env (eval (reverse expression) env))) 23:59:31 drdo: That seems pretty hypothetical. 23:59:53 Certainly not worth a bulky system to "fix". 23:59:54 if the compiler sees (reverse 1 2 3 4 +), it can statically rewrite that to (+ 4 3 2 1) at *compile* time, because the form is static. 23:59:54 *stassats* loves to find hard bugs 00:00:22 preferably the ones which take at least a week to find and a week to fix 00:00:33 sykopomp: pretty sure that's infinite recursion actually :S 00:00:39 stassats: How many of those have you been involved in? 00:00:42 err, sorry 00:00:57 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-119-109.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:00:58 I noticed the recursion bit. ($define! postfix ..) instead, please. 00:01:04 ye, i get it 00:01:07 Hexstream: i remember only one 00:01:28 point is, a partial evaluator can, at -compile- time, treat that the same as if you'd written (defmacro postfix (&body body) (reverse body)) 00:01:39 drdo: basically, you pre-execute code that depends only on data known at compile time, and fexprs are almost always operating on source code, which is almost always known at compiletime. 00:01:47 at least when you have fexprs that behave like Kernel's. 00:02:08 the neat thing, though, is that in the latter, 'reverse' is simply a symbol. 00:02:37 So why aren't we all using kernel? 00:02:40 errrgh 00:02:48 this is not a great example! 00:02:59 reverse is lexical in both, here. *blush* 00:03:05 Where can I read about that Kernel fexprs stuff? I have a feeling I'll find it quite pointless but I'd like to see it nonetheless ;P 00:03:05 let me guess, there's no compiler for it? 00:03:09 drdo: because it's not as nice as Common Lisp as a general language. :) 00:03:15 and no, there's no compiler. 00:03:23 sykopomp: In what aspects? 00:03:25 there's an incredibly slow interpreter for not-quite-kernel. 00:03:51 *stassats* writes it off as just another theoretical rambling 00:03:53 drdo: to be blunt, it's academic wankery vs CL's practical powerhouse std library. 00:04:06 -!- eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has quit [Quit: eugu] 00:04:12 sykopomp: That doesn't mean anything, what matters are the ideas there 00:04:20 No one is saying you have to adhere to the entire spec 00:04:57 and the improvements seem to be marginal, too much complication with little returns 00:04:58 drdo: if you want to use Kernel, that assumes you're sticking to the rest of the kernel report. 00:05:27 sykopomp: Not necessarily 00:05:29 Nevermind, I forgot we live in a Google World. 00:05:40 drdo: If you don't stick to the CL standard, you aren't using Common Lisp. 00:05:49 you can have something 'kinda like' Kernel. 00:05:50 I liked a lot of ideas from there 00:06:00 That doesn't mean i have to implement the standard it defines 00:06:10 but honestly, the fexprs are the only thing I really really like about it. 00:06:27 drdo: I could call it 'Kernel', but that would be dishonest! 00:06:42 sykopomp: You wouldn't call it kernel obviously 00:06:48 in any case, we have Common Lisp, and the problem is really not as big as some people (read: Schemers) would like you to think it is. 00:07:21 sykopomp: functional programming is awkward in CL 00:07:28 I would certainly be interested if there were a mature, optimizing compiler for a language that shares a lot of CL's benefits, as -well- as having these fexprs, of course. 00:07:37 and there are lots of issues with extending CL 00:07:52 drdo: Sure, whatever. Write a compiler and get back to me! 00:08:03 -!- tfb [~tfb@92.41.15.27.threembb.co.uk] has quit [Quit: gone] 00:08:03 call it colonel 00:08:11 heh 00:08:34 sykopomp: I'm not saying that CL is bad a language, it's certainly very useful and has mature implementations 00:08:45 drdo: you asked why we're not using Kernel. 00:08:45 ;) 00:09:12 That wasn't meant to be taken literally :P 00:10:51 *stassats* isn't using it because he's too conservative and caught up in traditions 00:12:16 The_Fellow [~spider1@glida.mooo.com] has joined #lisp 00:12:23 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 00:12:46 basho__ [~basho__@dslb-092-076-086-059.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:13:53 -!- The_Fellow1 [~spider1@glida.mooo.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:14:37 -!- basho___ [~basho__@dslb-178-003-004-242.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:14:47 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has quit [Quit: bye] 00:16:49 -!- dlila [~dlila@CPE0014d1c9243c-CM001bd71cede2.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:17:00 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@dynamic-78-8-139-191.ssp.dialog.net.pl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:17:12 mathrick [~mathrick@dynamic-78-8-139-191.ssp.dialog.net.pl] has joined #lisp 00:19:24 -!- basho__ [~basho__@dslb-092-076-086-059.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:20:21 -!- elliottcable is now known as inglip 00:20:29 *inglip* HAS SPOKEN 00:20:51 -!- inglip is now known as Guest58090 00:22:44 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:23:08 -!- Guest58090 is now known as elliottcable 00:25:10 marienz [~marienz@freenode/staff/marienz] has joined #lisp 00:27:10 youguy [~youguy@157.pool85-56-97.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 00:29:45 -!- youguy [~youguy@157.pool85-56-97.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:31:01 fitting 00:39:41 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 00:52:44 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.193.218] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 00:52:54 -!- rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:55:04 rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 00:57:42 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:57:47 -!- tauntaun [~icarus@64.134.102.125] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 00:58:12 -!- iesahin [~user@88.240.88.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:59:29 -!- Fullma [~fullma@ram94-2-82-66-69-246.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Fullma] 01:00:58 Fullma [~fullma@ram94-2-82-66-69-246.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 01:04:24 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:08:00 skeptical_p [~rononovsk@109.64.185.226] has joined #lisp 01:08:17 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:11:47 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-39-6-229.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:13:55 -!- mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:16:30 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-128-38.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:17:52 sepult [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-128-38.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:18:46 -!- sepult [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-128-38.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:19:11 is there a counterpart nth-value, that will return more than one value? something like (nth-values '(1 2 3) values) 01:19:20 +of 01:21:10 so say (nth-values '(0 2) (values 0 1 2 3)) should return (0 2) 01:21:16 -!- rolando [~user@56.121.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has left #lisp 01:22:02 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-128-38.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:23:35 pnq [~nick@ACA35779.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 01:27:43 kennyd: no 01:30:16 can i use something to skip some entries in multiple-value-bind then? what i'm trying to do is just extract date, month and year entries from (get-decoded-time) 01:33:13 what would be the cleanest way? 01:33:59 -!- spilman [~spilman@ARennes-552-1-109-10.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: .] 01:34:13 mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:41:02 -!- iwillig [~ivan@ool-18b944f4.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:42:41 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-128-38.netcologne.de] has left #lisp 01:44:43 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 01:47:00 kennyd: bind the intervening values, then (declare (ignore ...)) them 01:50:41 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-157-151.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:55:48 neoesque [~neoesque@220-133-153-203.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 01:56:00 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 01:58:10 xxxyyy [~xyxu@180.172.53.36] has joined #lisp 01:58:26 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@220-133-153-203.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:59:12 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has joined #lisp 01:59:55 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A2D4C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:00:12 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl22-62-232.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 02:00:13 thanks Ralith, but that's even more verbose. i'd rather not have to name the values that i won't be using. I guess the only way is to roll my own version of multiple-value-bind? 02:01:17 curse, then deal with it 02:01:30 alternatively, hack your compiler to support 02:01:36 (declaim (ignore _)) 02:03:20 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@99.13.242.166] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 02:03:31 lolwut, is this legal? it works in clisp 02:03:42 (multiple-value-bind (- - - date month year) (get-decoded-time) 02:04:06 - is a special variable 02:04:30 am I doing something there that can bite me back? i like the look of it 02:04:31 whether binding that one twice inside the same m-v-b might be disputable 02:05:22 kennyd: binding special variables make any call in scope not tail calls. 02:05:36 also it *establishes* a dynamic binding yeah what pjb said 02:05:43 -!- mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:05:45 also it comes with overhead 02:05:51 in effect, this disable TCO (which is why the standard doesn't require it, because it can't be applied most of the time). 02:05:59 I can change - to i or whatever, would that make it ok? 02:06:05 yes. 02:06:30 -!- tcr [~tcr@116.134.16.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:06:44 btw, as far as I know TCO is not guaranteed in CL? so is it not considered bad pratice to write code that depends on it? 02:06:54 has anybody extended "smug" to allow for parsing error messages? is it even a library or is it just the explanation on the page? 02:07:48 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-128-38.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 02:07:49 kennyd: the standard doesn't specify any limit on the stack space either. 02:08:14 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:09:14 I've typed out all of "smug" and I'm trying to somehow change (fail) to allow me to report messages, but unsuccessful so far 02:09:23 WarWeasle [~brad@c-98-220-113-143.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:11:40 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 02:12:17 -!- 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[~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:34:51 -!- lonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:35:19 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:36:02 seangrove [~user@user-64-9-235-29.googlewifi.com] has joined #lisp 02:36:47 -!- sigjuice [~sigjuice@c-71-198-22-233.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:36:47 -!- froydnj [~froydnj@gateway.codesourcery.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:36:53 sigjuice [~sigjuice@c-71-198-22-233.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:38:14 oconnore1 [~Eric@ip68-225-113-244.mc.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:38:46 -!- oconnore1 [~Eric@ip68-225-113-244.mc.at.cox.net] has left #lisp 02:39:43 -!- redline6561 [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:40:30 redline6561 [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:41:30 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:41:45 -!- lediable [~chacrasse@212.203.98.114] has left #lisp 02:42:36 msponge [~msponge@149-169-131-50.nat.asu.edu] has joined #lisp 02:42:37 -!- msponge [~msponge@149-169-131-50.nat.asu.edu] has quit [Excess Flood] 02:44:06 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.63.94] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:45:13 theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.63.186] has joined #lisp 02:46:07 -!- redline6561 [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:48:11 longfin [~longfin@211.187.37.46] has joined #lisp 02:50:27 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.93.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:50:48 Reccomended xml parser library? 02:51:57 -!- WarWeasle [~brad@c-98-220-113-143.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:51:58 jsoft: do you need validation? 02:52:23 Erm... not even sure what you mean by that 02:52:36 IVe jsut got these bank statements which for some reason are in xml format 02:52:40 ok, then use s-xml 02:52:47 k, thanks. 02:52:48 http://common-lisp.net/project/s-xml/ 03:03:17 omgz0r_ [~omgz0r@S010600119502eca3.wp.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:04:37 x86blackboy [~X86blackb@cpe-071-076-043-015.sc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:04:55 tauntaun [~icarus@ool-457c37c3.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:05:09 I'd recommend cxml if your input is valid. 03:05:48 redline6561 [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:06:03 -!- omgz0r [~omgz0r@S010600119502eca3.wp.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:06:03 -!- omgz0r_ is now known as omgz0r 03:10:00 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.81.108] has joined #lisp 03:10:52 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-193-241-28.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:13:25 -!- redline6561 [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:13:30 b3gott3n [~begotten@184-8-167-251.dr03.blfd.wv.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 03:17:07 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:19:57 -!- x86blackboy [~X86blackb@cpe-071-076-043-015.sc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:20:49 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:22:34 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-39-6-229.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:23:37 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-112-241.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:29:41 -!- b3gott3n [~begotten@184-8-167-251.dr03.blfd.wv.frontiernet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:30:02 Kenjin [~josesanto@a89-155-149-57.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 03:30:20 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:40:13 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:41:10 Good morning everyone! 03:41:16 mornin'! 03:41:56 morning beach 03:42:55 b3gott3n [~begotten@184-8-164-156.dr03.blfd.wv.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 03:46:12 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp2364.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 03:51:39 -!- tauntaun [~icarus@ool-457c37c3.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 03:54:57 fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.100.226.227] has joined #lisp 03:56:22 -!- Areil` [~Areil@123.21.161.210] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:57:39 st-6308 [foobar@92.250.11.202] has joined #lisp 04:03:55 lonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has joined #lisp 04:04:53 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.81.108] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:04:56 symbole [~user@ool-182ff693.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 04:05:59 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.75.166] has joined #lisp 04:07:20 -!- dkasak [~dkasak@dh207-101-71.xnet.hr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:09:23 cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.139.95.133] has joined #lisp 04:09:26 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 04:10:56 -!- jsoft [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:12:46 -!- gffa 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04:57:48 joe999 [~root@cpe-24-93-163-134.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:58:13 how to port allegro apps which use package common-graphics-user to sbcl? 05:00:43 -!- Adlai [~adlai@89-139-23-228.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:01:41 SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-248-241-85.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:02:03 *_3b* would guess either reimplement common-graphics in portable CL (+ some ffi or ffi-based libraries), or replace it with something like commonqt, cl-gtk2, mcclim, etc 05:02:36 thanks 05:03:08 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:06:19 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:07:40 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 05:10:49 psilord2 [~psilord@ppp-70-226-174-213.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 05:10:51 -!- psilord2 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joined #lisp 09:11:45 -!- danieljones [~danieljon@qld13-adsl-181.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:12:10 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 09:12:24 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755b76.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:12:29 extra11 [~extra11@c-24-125-178-151.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:13:37 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:17:38 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 09:19:04 -!- extra11 [~extra11@c-24-125-178-151.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has left #lisp 09:19:36 extra11 [~extra11@c-24-125-178-151.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:19:54 I come to troll...please ban me 09:20:19 -!- lifeng [~lifeng@bb116-14-191-157.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 09:20:38 -!- extra11 [~extra11@c-24-125-178-151.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has left #lisp 09:20:53 That's a new one. 09:25:16 lifeng [~lifeng@bb116-14-191-157.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 09:25:40 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.237.174] has joined #lisp 09:26:00 Gmind [~Nevermind@113.190.173.150] has joined #lisp 09:26:33 did he just leave? 09:27:55 Looks that way. 09:28:33 -!- guther [guther@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-wnwlhsstoheicrrb] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:28:38 guther [guther@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-ohjsplyvpzegiqwt] has joined #lisp 09:31:19 i think I confused ghc with sbcl; sbcl doesn't have a llvm "back-end" other than cl-llvm? 09:31:59 (i.e. a working one) 09:32:03 <_3b> i think someone started experimenting with it at one point, don't think it went very far 09:32:25 thx, _3b 09:35:06 minion: cl-llvm? 09:35:06 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``cl-llvm''. 09:35:33 well, it's not a compiler backend 09:35:37 -!- rootzlevel [~hpd@188-195-186-112-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:36:02 borkaman` [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 09:39:16 begotten_ [~begotten@184-8-168-193.dr03.blfd.wv.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 09:41:08 -!- begotten_ [~begotten@184-8-168-193.dr03.blfd.wv.frontiernet.net] has quit [Client Quit] 09:41:17 afaik there was some code that allowed SBCL to compile some stuff with LLVM 09:41:27 begotten_ [~begotten@184-8-168-193.dr03.blfd.wv.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 09:42:42 -!- b3gott3n [~begotten@184-8-164-156.dr03.blfd.wv.frontiernet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:48:25 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:50:03 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:51:16 begotten__ [~begotten@184-8-164-156.dr03.blfd.wv.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 09:54:20 -!- begotten_ [~begotten@184-8-168-193.dr03.blfd.wv.frontiernet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:55:29 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 09:57:24 -!- Kenjin 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12:06:39 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-037-083.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 12:14:04 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-78-36-178-121.static.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:15:17 hargettp [~hargettp@96.237.121.111] has joined #lisp 12:17:29 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-78-36-178-121.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 12:24:49 mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.255.252] has joined #lisp 12:24:49 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.255.252] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:27:05 -!- iesahin` [~user@85.103.245.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:29:30 <[df]> do I need to do something special to build clisp executables that can use dynamic modules? 12:29:34 <[df]> http://paste.lisp.org/display/120926 12:30:25 -!- b3gott3n [~begotten@184-8-164-156.dr03.blfd.wv.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:33:41 sellout [~Adium@adsl-199-19-168-189.dynamic.caneris.com] has joined #lisp 12:39:56 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 12:40:12 gz [~gz@216.141.82.130] has joined #lisp 12:52:05 LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-119-109.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:56:17 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-157-151.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:57:14 -!- gz [~gz@216.141.82.130] has left #lisp 12:58:57 -!- sellout [~Adium@adsl-199-19-168-189.dynamic.caneris.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:59:16 G'morning all. 12:59:38 hello nyef 12:59:58 since when have has #lisp required ops to change the topic? 13:00:20 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:00:50 jsnell: Quite a while now, as some spammers had taken it upon themselves to advertise there. 13:01:06 It's been months, at least. 13:02:28 ok. I guess that kind of kills the custom of announcing software releases there 13:02:50 (but if some op wants to add sbcl 1.0.47 there, that'd be great) 13:03:46 nyef: can you disable that ? 13:04:10 fe[nl]ix: Nope, you need an op for that. 13:04:15 -!- pen [u854@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fqqbyqldoxegunwz] has quit [Disconnected by services] 13:04:18 It's the +t in the channel mode, IIRC. 13:04:28 nyef: I thought you were one :D 13:04:40 Not I, sir. 13:04:44 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:05:21 katesmith [~katesmith@75-138-209-215.dhcp.snfr.nc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 13:05:21 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@75-138-209-215.dhcp.snfr.nc.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 13:05:21 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 13:05:49 paradoja [~paradoja@acceso-cmp174-55.lpa.idec.net] has joined #lisp 13:06:26 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:07:29 dkasak [~dkasak@dh207-101-71.xnet.hr] has joined #lisp 13:09:47 cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.139.95.133] has joined #lisp 13:11:06 fihi09` [~user@pool-96-224-47-137.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:11:09 -!- fihi09 [~user@pool-96-224-47-137.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:11:41 sellout [~Adium@adsl-199-19-168-189.dynamic.caneris.com] has joined #lisp 13:12:09 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-037-083.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:13:36 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 13:14:04 -!- MoALTz [~no@92.8.251.108] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:16:42 -!- spilman [~spilman@ARennes-552-1-109-10.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: .] 13:17:07 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 13:18:11 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 13:19:02 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 13:19:47 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:20:19 MoALTz [~no@92.8.243.247] has joined #lisp 13:23:45 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.75.166] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:24:11 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.80.199] has joined #lisp 13:25:06 -!- tcr [~tcr@116.134.16.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:30:40 -!- McMAGIC-- [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:31:18 drewc, xach, zhivago, and nikodemus iirc. 13:31:46 jokoon [~eio@feu30-1-82-242-58-229.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 13:35:34 madsenz [~user@122.100.215.236] has joined #lisp 13:37:16 This is one of those "ask chanserv" questions. 13:37:21 -!- cnl [~cnl@78.31.74.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:38:36 Tippenein [~chatzilla@97.65.218.4] has joined #lisp 13:39:14 aye 13:40:55 Aj, aj... 13:40:57 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-186-178.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:43:26 -!- cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.139.95.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:45:24 we could get topic change permissions for specific, trusted users 13:46:14 (+t in channel's user flag) 13:46:27 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:46:27 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Krystof 13:46:30 tell me what I have to do 13:46:53 "/mode #lisp -t", I think? 13:46:58 -!- Krystof has set mode -t 13:47:01 try that 13:47:09 for per-user topic change flag? 13:47:12 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-186-178.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:47:26 Mmm. Hadn't quite caught up with that part of the conversation. 13:47:27 well, for now for SBCL advertising 13:47:43 there's usually someone around who can tighten up policy if it starts being abused 13:48:39 -!- nyef changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: SBCL 1.0.47, usocket 0.5.0, ABCL 0.25, mega1 p0wns hordes of C++ and Java programmers using his mad AI skillz (http://ai-contest.com/), Bordeaux-Threads 0.8.0 13:48:57 cfy [~cfy@122.228.135.218] has joined #lisp 13:49:16 -!- cfy [~cfy@122.228.135.218] has quit [Changing host] 13:49:16 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 13:50:52 McMAGIC-- [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--] has joined #lisp 13:56:32 -!- schmrkc [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:56:44 -!- nixfreak [~nixfreak@mn-10k-dhcp1-3174.dsl.hickorytech.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:57:04 killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has joined #lisp 13:59:51 -!- Tippenein [~chatzilla@97.65.218.4] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 3.6.16/20110319135224]] 14:00:52 tippenein [~chatzilla@97.65.218.4] has joined #lisp 14:01:59 Gmind1 [~Nevermind@113.190.173.150] has joined #lisp 14:03:24 -!- Gmind [~Nevermind@113.190.173.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:08:01 nyef annotated #120857 "Single-threaded event handling" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/120857#2 14:08:38 nyef annotated #120857 "Winapi event handling" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/120857#3 14:12:51 nyef: sounds interesting. It's a hugely annoying kludge in the other backends that a central event processing thread is needed to relay events to actual CLIM threads. 14:12:52 lichtblau, memo from fe[nl]ix: ping 14:13:29 minion: memo for fe[nl]ix: pong 14:13:29 Remembered. I'll tell fe[nl]ix when he/she/it next speaks. 14:14:38 lichtblau: I'm finding that the CLIM 2 specification is -horrible-, with event handling being one of the sections of deep nastiness. 14:16:13 tcr [~tcr@116.134.16.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 14:16:36 lichtblau: I would also point out that, modulo OPEN-WINDOW-STREAM, it can make quite a bit of sense to use single-threaded CLIM on a multi-threaded lisp with one PORT per thread. 14:20:00 i upgraded all packages with quicklisp and now commonqt mocks it can't load or recompile 14:20:13 homie: too bad. What does it say exactly? 14:20:31 CPP:SO something 14:21:16 maybe i need a shared lib ? 14:21:17 paul0`` [~user@200.146.60.228.dynamic.dialup.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 14:21:26 or one of the shared libs symlinks changed on my system ? 14:21:29 don't know 14:21:38 homie: run qmake && make clean && make in the commonqt directory explictly to get actually helpful output 14:21:45 ok 14:22:13 the .asd attempts to run make for you on non-windows, but that's only for the cases where things happen to just work out without further customization 14:22:28 -!- paul0` [~user@189.26.131.39.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:23:13 -!- dmytrish [~dmytrish@inherent.puzzler.volia.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:23:41 timack [~tim@hlfx50-2-142177100216.ppp-dynamic.dial.ns.bellaliant.net] has joined #lisp 14:24:04 -!- sellout [~Adium@adsl-199-19-168-189.dynamic.caneris.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:26:39 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:27:11 moah [~gnu@dslb-084-061-241-110.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:27:17 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 14:27:36 lol 14:27:36 fe[nl]ix, memo from lichtblau: pong 14:27:41 i even purged the dirs and removed the package.txt files from the dists/quicklisp/installed/releases or systems folders, and tried reinstalling package qt but no go 14:29:17 -!- CrazyEddy [~corporify@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:29:48 that's what i got now http://pastie.org/1722159 14:30:10 with lichtblau's qmake && qmake clean etc... 14:31:36 but it seems i have all qt libs already insalled on my system, so i don't get why it can't find the so's 14:32:44 <_3b> do you have -dev packages installed? 14:32:54 yes 14:34:22 Joreji [~thomas@85-183.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 14:34:38 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:34:52 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@58.63.64.230] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:35:23 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 14:37:59 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 14:39:31 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 14:43:22 MoALTz_ [~no@92.8.247.246] has joined #lisp 14:44:23 -!- MoALTz [~no@92.8.243.247] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:45:24 anybody familiar with Peter Naur's recent thesis on psychology? 14:46:05 ( http://www.naur.com/Nauranat-ref.html ) 14:47:26 I just built common-qt. install libsmoke-dev, then purge the fasls in ~/.cache/common-lisp 14:47:40 then the quickload just completes... 14:47:49 now, if you're not on linux, ignore me. 14:48:31 sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:48:46 iwillig [~ivan@cpe-24-90-154-250.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:50:03 ubuntu 10.10 on amd64, here. 14:50:10 sbcl 1.0.47 14:50:15 -!- Joreji [~thomas@85-183.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:52:51 Rukowen [~Rukowen@222.253.88.110] has joined #lisp 14:54:41 that's not released yet is it? 14:55:17 ah see that it apparently just is 14:55:25 antoni [~user@221.pool85-53-19.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 14:58:31 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 14:58:41 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:58:57 -!- leo2007 [~leo@2402:f000:5:2901:225:4bff:fea9:b9e4] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:00:01 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.118.101] has joined #lisp 15:00:39 CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 15:02:17 -!- madsenz [~user@122.100.215.236] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:02:18 Bronsa [~brace@host102-184-dynamic.6-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 15:03:31 gonzojive [~red@pool-96-255-78-59.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:03:37 tauntaun [~icarus@64.134.69.191] has joined #lisp 15:04:05 -!- antoni [~user@221.pool85-53-19.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:04:22 silenius [~silenus@p4FC22136.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:04:31 antoni [~user@221.pool85-53-19.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 15:04:52 -!- gonzojive [~red@pool-96-255-78-59.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:05:49 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host102-184-dynamic.6-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Client Quit] 15:06:26 rme [~rme@pool-70-105-118-12.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:07:11 -!- antoni [~user@221.pool85-53-19.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:07:38 antoni [~user@221.pool85-53-19.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 15:08:52 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-33-41-84.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 15:08:53 Atomsk [ace4016@adsl-33-41-84.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 15:09:26 hum. teh openNI middleware for the kinect is all done in C++ :/ 15:09:32 ^t 15:09:35 -!- azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:10:45 What are the expected audiences for a specification, specifically a specification for computer software? 15:11:28 I'm thinking that, at the very least, there are implementors and users, but there are probably other audiences to cater to as well. 15:11:56 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:12:10 -!- jsoftw [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:12:53 industry pundits? 15:13:14 comparative literature experts? 15:13:28 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-56-74.iburst.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:13:31 translators to exotic languages? 15:13:42 I'm more sympathetic to the literature experts than to the pundits... 15:14:04 -!- tcr [~tcr@116.134.16.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:14:42 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:14:58 -!- dkasak [~dkasak@dh207-101-71.xnet.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:15:12 hell, I'm _married_ to one 15:15:29 Pundit or literature expert? 15:15:55 dkasak [~dkasak@dh207-101-71.xnet.hr] has joined #lisp 15:16:09 azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has joined #lisp 15:16:58 the latter 15:18:21 How about compliance-testers? 15:18:22 I have no evidence of the former even existing, come to think about it. industry punditry must pay less than actual practice, so the available output is probably from various AIs 15:19:16 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 15:19:48 -!- jokoon [~eio@feu30-1-82-242-58-229.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:20:04 Umm... technical writers, particularly those who write documentation for the resulting system and those who write future specifications (either for the same system, a related system, or an unrelated system but using an existing specification as an exemplar of good style)? 15:21:21 And "auditors", such as those performing a security analysis of a system. 15:21:41 That's some six major audiences already. 15:21:59 With, of course, some overlap of needs. 15:24:29 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:27:04 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:27:43 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:28:12 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 15:29:00 -!- Rukowen [~Rukowen@222.253.88.110] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:30:27 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:31:52 StrmSrfr [~storm@adsl-32-177-233.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:26 Fade: i can't find libsmoke-dev 15:36:46 koning_robot [~user@50-208.ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #lisp 15:38:08 Fade: oh ok it's named libsmokekde-dev libsmokeqt4-dev etc.. 15:38:27 libsmokeqt4-dev 15:38:30 etc 15:38:37 *nod* 15:38:50 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:39:33 -!- antoni [~user@221.pool85-53-19.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:39:47 do i need ldconfig before ? 15:39:56 I didn't 15:40:08 the setup scripts probably handle that 15:40:10 -!- azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:40:22 what system are you using? 15:40:42 *_3b* notes that the earlier paste had -I.../qt3 and wonders if that should match the qt4 in the lib names 15:40:55 hmm, the libsmoke libs didn't change anything for the qmake && make etc...command line, wait i'll try to load within sbcl with quicklisp 15:41:10 I just used quicklisp 15:41:12 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:43:47 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:44:29 rexim [~rexim@91.204.184.177] has joined #lisp 15:46:59 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 15:47:12 -!- [df] [~df@163.8.187.81.in-addr.arpa] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:47:52 now i got a failure with the makefile for commonqt.pro thing 15:48:08 what failure? 15:49:09 this one http://pastie.org/1722448 15:50:01 that's not a very helpful paste 15:50:37 you'd rather go to the directory where commonqt resides and issue qmake and make there 15:50:57 -!- iwillig [~ivan@cpe-24-90-154-250.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:51:41 It would be nice if ASDF were more verbose in this situation. 15:51:58 it would 15:52:26 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 15:52:54 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Client Quit] 15:52:54 -!- sonnym [~sonny@184.74.137.167] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 15:53:01 sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:55:07 <_3b> homie: does qmake -v list qt 3 or qt 4? 15:55:26 seangrove [~user@c-98-234-242-172.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:56:07 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 15:56:25 3 15:56:45 i have to have 4 ? 15:56:51 yes 15:56:53 ah ok 15:56:57 <_3b> maybe see if you have a qmake-qt4 or something 15:57:00 that's it then i think, thank you 15:57:07 ok 15:57:09 But I have my own verbosity problem. I'm doing "ecl -eval '(asdf:make-build :usocket :type :program :move-here t)'", which seems to work, but when I run the generated program it says 'There exists no package with name "USOCKET-SYSTEM"' and I have no idea why that would be happening. 15:58:00 Worse, I don't know if it's a problem with usocket, ecl, or asdf 15:58:23 i'd bet on "with ECL" 15:59:20 Does anyone know how I can get ECL to tell me more about what it's doing? 15:59:35 s|k|a [~s|k|a@89.108.143.248] has joined #lisp 15:59:39 read the source code? 15:59:43 run gdb? 16:00:19 I was hoping maybe I could get it to not delete the C files, so I could look at those. Although gdb or strace might be a way to go. 16:00:56 i doubt C files would be where helpful 16:01:02 but you can get them from compile-file 16:01:19 danieljones [~danieljon@qld13-adsl-181.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 16:01:23 azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has joined #lisp 16:01:46 morning 16:01:58 [df] [~df@163.8.187.81.in-addr.arpa] has joined #lisp 16:02:43 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:03:01 -!- rexim [~rexim@91.204.184.177] has quit [Quit:    ] 16:05:14 *stassats* has troubles even building ECL... 16:05:34 got it all well now, thanks again 16:05:55 The latest version built fine for me. I haven't really used it before. 16:06:35 stassats: it has failed here in the past as well, seems to be better with later releases though 16:06:45 when i was playing with ECL, I had enough problems that I put it in the pile of 'not ready for primetime' implementations. 16:06:51 i'm using the latest git usually 16:06:52 rexim [~rexim@91.204.184.177] has joined #lisp 16:06:59 hi! 16:07:44 Fade: I did that a few years ago, now I'm giving it another try. 16:07:54 hi 16:08:19 i use ECL only for testing my code, and when I do, I have to fix a couple of bugs in ECL first 16:08:21 I liked its potential as a delivery vehicle for various stand alone systems. 16:08:31 which is fun 16:08:35 but never got it really working well enough to do that. 16:09:31 You'd think it could compile and load usocket.... 16:09:49 StrmSrfr: what version of ECL do you have? 16:09:55 11.1.1 16:10:17 -!- s|k|a [~s|k|a@89.108.143.248] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com] 16:10:38 I should be clear, usocket (0.5.0) works fine if I load it the normal way 16:11:03 But if I try to build an executable, I get that error when I start it. 16:12:28 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:12:32 that is clear 16:13:08 Well, I hadn't mentioned that it works if I load it interactively. 16:17:14 Mococa [~Mococa@186.214.240.145] has joined #lisp 16:17:32 Heh, ecl does some really weird things with signals. 16:17:46 it's not ecl, it's boehm-gc 16:18:22 -!- daniel__ [~daniel@p5082AC54.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:19:13 daniel_ [~daniel@p5B32691D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:19:53 Oh. 16:20:10 mattrepl [~mattrepl@c-69-181-1-27.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:21:12 anyway, you can ignore them in gdb 16:22:42 ok, one step further to building ECL 16:25:10 well, latest git just builds with the standard configure/make incantation, on my system. 16:25:39 inconceivable! 16:25:47 cue shock 16:26:13 perhaps my C compiler is less forgiving at referencing undefined functions 16:26:28 What C compiler do you have? 16:26:42 i'm just using a vanilla gnu compiler collection toolchain 16:26:43 GCC 4.5.2 16:26:45 <[df]> I usually use a release if I want ecl to reliably build, git head seems to be a bit unstable 16:26:56 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:27:00 -!- azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:27:00 <[df]> the current head builds for me though 16:27:07 4.4.5, here 16:27:09 spilman [~spilman@ARennes-552-1-109-10.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:27:11 well, I don't use ECL, I only like fixing bugs in it 16:27:21 exu0 [~u@dslb-188-105-126-035.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:27:29 I have 4.3.2 and 4.2.1 Apple 16:27:30 -!- exu0 [~u@dslb-188-105-126-035.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 16:27:32 both seemed to work 16:27:36 first one's on linux 16:27:55 that's not the first difference with regards to gcc 4.5 and ECL i encounter 16:27:57 heavens to betsy. hunchentoot successfully quickloads /w the resulting ECL. 16:28:14 Does it work? 16:28:23 oh, i have gcc-4.4 here, let me try it 16:28:36 I'd have to further plumb it into my setup to find out. 16:29:02 Can you build a standalone with asdf:make-build? 16:29:31 eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has joined #lisp 16:29:52 no, the same thing with gcc-4.4 16:29:57 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:30:35 oh weird, the ecl I built on OS X doesn't seem to have an asdf:make-build 16:30:43 this bug better be good, because here i come 16:31:12 mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:31:17 oh, nevermind, my shell decided to switch from /usr/local/bin/ecl to /sw/bin/ecl even though I remember checking which one it was using 16:31:39 -!- benny [~benny@i577A30DE.versanet.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:32:43 well, it fails to load the system I have that depends on hunchentoot because UCW doesn't load with a compilation failure in trivial-garbage 16:32:59 Best system name ever :) 16:33:15 tcr [~tcr@116.134.16.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 16:33:24 I don't think I ever got UCW to work... but maybe it was a different TLA. 16:34:03 Fade: you can test it with (hunchentoot-test:test-hunchentoot "http://localhost:4242") 16:34:15 Oh... it might be quicklisp related. 16:34:20 and the other system I'd like to use it in is rejected /w an error expanding a loop tht works in ccl and sbcl. 16:34:25 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-25.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:34:41 -!- danieljones [~danieljon@qld13-adsl-181.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:34:42 ccl's and sbcl's loops are quite permissive 16:34:43 -!- longfin [~longfin@211.187.37.46] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:35:11 hum 16:35:23 now it crashed silently. 16:35:23 OK, same result on OS X as linux. 16:35:32 Mmm. SBCL is uncharacteristically permissive with its LOOP. 16:41:23 sakekasi [~sakekasi@99-28-149-24.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:41:32 how do I append a values to an array? 16:41:53 what kind of array? 16:42:14 stassats, a vector 16:42:46 a) concatenate b) make an extensible array c) use a list insead 16:43:46 something about not loading the init file maybe 16:43:59 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-119-109.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:44:13 You may also be looking for vector-push-extend 16:44:29 MrMC [~Adium@91-65-179-6-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 16:45:23 MoALTz [~no@92.18.160.129] has joined #lisp 16:45:43 I'm giving up on ecl for the moment. 16:46:38 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@92.8.247.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:49:55 srolls [~user@c-76-126-212-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:51:08 hrm, ECL now seems to a separate thread for some stuff 16:51:17 that explains why i get all the output mingled 16:51:52 -!- MoALTz [~no@92.18.160.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:53:07 MoALTz [~no@92.9.82.120] has joined #lisp 16:53:39 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@a89-155-149-57.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 16:54:22 -!- tauntaun [~icarus@64.134.69.191] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 16:54:35 -!- Atomsk is now known as ace4016 16:54:50 Bronsa [~brace@host102-184-dynamic.6-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:55:01 sellout [~Adium@CPE00222d129d84-CM00222d129d80.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 16:56:07 -!- Fullma [~fullma@ram94-2-82-66-69-246.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:57:21 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 16:58:08 azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has joined #lisp 17:00:09 -!- koning_robot [~user@50-208.ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:01:03 Looks like there's also a unicode-related bug. 17:03:07 -!- sakekasi 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quit [Quit: dnolen] 17:20:00 azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has joined #lisp 17:20:23 adobriyan [~ad@vulture-nat-38.telecom.by] has joined #lisp 17:21:08 LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-119-109.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:24:17 sakekasi [~sakekasi@99-28-149-24.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:26:02 -!- MoALTz [~no@92.9.82.120] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:26:55 -!- mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:27:46 leo2007 [~leo@2402:f000:5:2901:225:4bff:fea9:b9e4] has joined #lisp 17:30:17 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:30:37 -!- _dev0_ [~dev@c-24-16-28-215.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:34:02 -!- sakekasi [~sakekasi@99-28-149-24.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:37:08 _dev0_ [~dev@c-24-16-28-215.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:37:18 hm perhaps I should write a blog post before I get deleted any time soon by Xach :-) 17:39:23 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 17:39:44 -!- sellout [~Adium@CPE00222d129d84-CM00222d129d80.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:43:01 -!- Gmind1 [~Nevermind@113.190.173.150] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:43:29 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 17:45:13 josemanuel [~josemanue@108.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 17:47:31 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA35779.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:51:27 -!- dmytrish [~dmytrish@91.145.223.69] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:52:32 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:56:06 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 17:58:51 -!- MrMC [~Adium@91-65-179-6-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:03:23 -!- rexim [~rexim@91.204.184.177] has quit [Quit:    ] 18:05:27 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 18:13:46 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:15:52 Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:18:47 mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:18:57 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-119-109.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:20:22 -!- silenius [~silenus@p4FC22136.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:21:31 MoALTz [~no@92.18.162.215] has joined #lisp 18:28:08 basho___ [~basho__@dslb-188-108-062-025.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:28:43 -!- basho__ [~basho__@dslb-092-076-086-059.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:29:22 *tcr* blogs 18:29:36 http://trittweiler.blogspot.com/2011/03/use-case-for-restart-bind.html 18:31:41 -!- josemanuel [~josemanue@108.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 18:31:56 basho__ [~basho__@dslb-188-108-004-007.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:32:50 -!- basho___ [~basho__@dslb-188-108-062-025.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:33:04 -!- Boriskr [~Boriskr@95.104.243.255] has quit [] 18:33:28 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:34:59 tcr: excellent FORMATTER usage there 18:35:15 i've never seen that done before, but it's readable and obviously correct 18:35:31 I think that :report-function should take a string and expand to that 18:36:31 there should really be :report-control and :report-arguments :) 18:37:56 :report taking a static lambda expression instead of also a function is silly too :-) 18:38:04 in restart-case's case 18:38:24 that's a nice post, thanks to Xach's draconian purging polices 18:38:38 carlocci [~nes@93.37.220.163] has joined #lisp 18:38:42 policies 18:38:42 If only SBCL was an implementation-only kind of thing 18:39:28 Thanks :-) Did some more cool stuff but some is not appropriate for public consumption 18:39:29 slyrus: While you're waiting for that download, did you see the annotations I made to that paste on CLIM event handling? 18:39:53 no, not yet 18:40:37 minion: Paste 120857? 18:40:37 Paste number 120857: "The CLIM event-handling disaster" by nyef in #lisp. http://paste.lisp.org/display/120857 18:42:44 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@186.214.240.145] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:44:28 -!- leo2007 [~leo@2402:f000:5:2901:225:4bff:fea9:b9e4] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:48:47 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:49:17 HG` [~HG@dslb-178-001-126-061.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:50:39 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl14-66-149.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 18:51:25 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:51:34 killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has joined #lisp 18:51:47 cmm- [~cmm@bzq-79-176-209-182.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:53:38 sakekasi [~sakekasi@99-28-149-24.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:54:13 LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-119-109.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:55:05 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-66-212-239.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:55:20 jkraw [~jkraw@pc-212-191-78-200.p.lodz.pl] has joined #lisp 18:55:22 -!- ramus [~ramus@adsl-108-76-78-229.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 18:55:22 nyef: do you want to send that to mcclim-devel? 18:55:37 I'm not particularly bothered either way. 18:55:43 Not subscribed to mcclim-devel, either. 18:56:53 ramus [~ramus@adsl-108-76-78-229.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:57:32 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 241 seconds] 18:58:00 -!- sakekasi [~sakekasi@99-28-149-24.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:59:03 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 19:00:37 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:04:09 The_Fellow1 [~spider1@glida.mooo.com] has joined #lisp 19:04:10 IdealLove1 [~Adium@89.114.131.141] has joined #lisp 19:05:10 -!- moah [~gnu@dslb-084-061-241-110.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 19:05:23 tauntaun [~icarus@64.134.69.191] has joined #lisp 19:05:23 Okay, finally coming to some conclusions here. First, the CLIM 2 specification fails to meet any of the needs of any appropriate audience. Second, the main interesting things in CLIM are the adaptive toolkit, stream I/O for user interfaces, presentations based on the stream I/O, the command-line based interface paradigm based on streams and presentations, and finally updating-output. 19:05:47 -!- The_Fellow [~spider1@glida.mooo.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:05:54 Third, the better parts of the CLIM 2 spec are precisely these areas. 19:07:16 Fourth, as soon as you attempt to leave the "reading commands from a stream" model of user interface, the system starts fighting you. The further away you get, the more it fights. 19:08:05 A lot of stuff simply -stops working- if you don't have an interactor-pane or application-pane in your frame. 19:08:37 And there's no defined model for how to handle events in an application frame other than by reading gestures from a stream. 19:09:47 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-163-46.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:09:51 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.118.101] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 19:10:27 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-118-101.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:12:39 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-159-187.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:13:14 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-159-187.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:14:14 nyef: combined with iolib or #+clisp socket:socket-status, you can recover a unique event loop polling the various streams easily. 19:14:17 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@vpnsh0116.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 19:14:27 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host102-184-dynamic.6-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:14:43 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-186-178.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:14:44 Umm... No, because they're gray streams, not fd-streams. 19:14:51 schell [~schellsci@c-76-103-111-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:14:56 Bronsa [~brace@host102-184-dynamic.6-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 19:15:00 then perhaps CL:LISTEN? 19:15:15 -!- IdealLove1 [~Adium@89.114.131.141] has left #lisp 19:15:28 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host102-184-dynamic.6-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Client Quit] 19:16:26 pjb: Does that work on multiple streams simultaneously? 19:16:28 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-118-101.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:16:45 listen doesn't hang. Normally. 19:17:08 So what if you want to sleep until one of the streams has input? 19:17:25 So you can (loop for event = (loop for s in stream until (listen s) finally (return s)) for ev = (read event) do ...) 19:17:28 No, the entire event-handling setup is far too underspecified to use. 19:17:54 Agh! My poor CPU! A -busy wait-?!? 19:17:54 Bronsa [~brace@host102-184-dynamic.6-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 19:18:18 Well, you can use a system:poll or system:select function if you want. 19:18:29 Again, these aren't fd-streams. 19:18:45 What I mean, is that it's easier to go stream -> event loop than event loop -> streams. The later involves implementing gray streams (ok, we have them in CL, but still). 19:19:04 I mean, you can integrate gray-streams into a select or poll API. 19:19:10 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@c-69-181-1-27.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 19:19:21 Yes, it may require implementation level works. 19:19:39 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-136-158.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:19:51 Meanwhile, as a user, the entire infrastructure is insufficiently specified. 19:19:57 mattrepl [~mattrepl@c-69-181-1-27.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:20:07 And, as an implementor, precisely the same! 19:20:30 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-33-41-84.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 19:20:31 Atomsk [ace4016@adsl-33-186-44.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 19:20:37 -!- Atomsk is now known as ace4016 19:21:19 does 'load not like spaces in directory names? 19:21:23 -!- basho__ [~basho__@dslb-188-108-004-007.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:21:31 it doesn't care 19:22:45 i'm trying to load asdf.lisp but ecl is telling me it doesn't exist - i've tried loading it with an absolute pathname to no avail 19:23:06 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@124-168-112-32.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 19:23:11 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-175-171.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:23:21 ecl comes with asdf, why don't you just (require 'asdf) 19:23:48 Joreji [~thomas@85-183.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 19:24:23 i'm using version 10.4.1, which after running (require 'asdf) i get "don't know how to require asdf" - which makes me think ecl 10.4.1 doesn't include asdf 19:24:40 nyef: I'd agree that it's unfinished. 19:25:01 you could mess up its installation 19:25:08 and 10.4.1 is rather old 19:25:24 nyef: I really have the impression that everybody went to holidays in the 1990's after completing the standard. 19:25:32 i know, i'm hacking around with ecl on iphone 19:25:50 After completing which standard? 19:25:53 Things started to move again around 2000, and only now they're visibly better. 19:26:01 i guess maybe i should spend my time getting the newest ecl ported to iphone, but that's one more step i'd like to avoid 19:26:01 CLHS. 19:26:11 Ah, right. 19:26:33 Arguably, they -did-. Moving to sunnier climes during the AI winter! 19:26:33 schell: isn't clozure cl working on iphone already? 19:27:03 -!- ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 19:27:36 i don't know, is that a better implementation? 19:28:01 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 19:28:13 schell: it doesn't rely on gcc to compile to native code. 19:28:29 schell: with ecl you'd be restricted to interpreting or bytecompiling code generated on the iPhone. 19:28:51 can't you install gcc on it? 19:28:52 varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 19:29:23 mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 19:29:23 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 19:29:23 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 19:29:25 You can jailbreak it. But I'm not sure Apple would validate gcc on the AppStore. 19:29:42 Apple spreads a lot of incertainty... 19:29:46 s/in/un/ 19:29:47 i doubt an app that uses gcc would pass 19:30:24 -!- zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:30:35 So you can use a language other than Objective-C now? 19:30:44 ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 19:31:09 yes - though it's a little bit of a grey area 19:31:20 Neat. 19:31:33 I hadn't heard. 19:31:49 platforms like Unity are acceptable 19:32:12 with Unity you write most of your game logic in JS, Boo or C# 19:32:16 So, anything that's not Flash? 19:32:24 You can use it, but not to download and run programs, but it seems you can let the user write programs (there's a basic and a scheme). 19:32:34 This whole thing with apple is just painful to watch. I shudder to think how it must be for those actually involved. :-/ 19:32:38 Apple's really strange. 19:32:41 you can even write in as3, adobe has a compilation tool 19:32:46 They used to be cool. 19:33:09 gtg 19:33:09 Well, the next Gassé will probably take over soon. 19:33:11 thanks for the info 19:33:21 a game called Alchemy was written in flash for iphone - seems good enough 19:33:32 adios 19:33:39 they even broke SBCL with the new Xcode, i bet it's on purpose! 19:34:12 the new Xcode is weird, everything is in a new place, navigation is funny 19:34:53 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@c-69-181-1-27.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 19:34:54 i can't seem to find much on clozure cl for ios 19:35:55 basically just links to their wiki 19:36:18 seelenquell [~seelenque@p5DD34938.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:36:28 do linkers really need to hold everything in memory? /me watches as ld is taking 3.5G of memory 19:36:29 zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:37:18 gabnet [~gabnet@136.63.193-77.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 19:38:57 Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-54-177-186.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:38:57 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-54-177-186.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 19:38:57 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 19:40:24 jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-25.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:41:36 schell: is there anything special to consider? I thought you'd just check out the ARM binary and are good to go. ICBW though; my ARM isn't recent enough to run the port, so I haven't tried. 19:42:29 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host102-184-dynamic.6-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:44:21 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:45:07 nevermind; I read iOS and was thinking ARM, and mailing list discussion sounded to me like (jailbroken) iOS would work. 19:45:09 So there's not actually a release for iOS? 19:45:34 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:46:08 -!- tcr [~tcr@116.134.16.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:46:42 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 19:47:07 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:48:52 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@vpnsh0116.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:49:24 Bronsa [~brace@host102-184-dynamic.6-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 19:52:41 dmytrish [~dmytrish@inherent.puzzler.volia.net] has joined #lisp 19:58:17 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-119-109.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:04:53 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-159-187.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:05:54 francogrex [~user@109.130.188.79] has joined #lisp 20:06:55 zmv [~daniel@c934ad95.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 20:08:48 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.188.79] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:09:13 -!- tauntaun [~icarus@64.134.69.191] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 20:12:16 -!- gabnet [~gabnet@136.63.193-77.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 20:19:32 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:19:42 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host102-184-dynamic.6-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:20:52 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-25.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:21:57 -!- zmv [~daniel@c934ad95.virtua.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:21:58 basho__ [~basho__@dslb-188-108-011-225.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:22:42 zmv [~daniel@c934ad95.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 20:23:02 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 20:30:07 -!- tippenein [~chatzilla@97.65.218.4] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100401080539]] 20:31:33 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 20:31:52 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Client Quit] 20:33:28 Mococa [~Mococa@186.214.240.145] has joined #lisp 20:34:02 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:34:13 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 20:34:59 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Client Quit] 20:36:50 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 20:38:00 -!- spilman [~spilman@ARennes-552-1-109-10.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: .] 20:42:16 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 20:42:20 -!- zmv [~daniel@c934ad95.virtua.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:42:20 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 20:42:30 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Client Quit] 20:43:36 zmv [~daniel@c934ad95.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 20:44:09 st-5426 [~st-5426@a89-154-147-132.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 20:44:27 La0fer [~Laofers1@64.120.233.114] has joined #lisp 20:45:04 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 20:48:29 -!- varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:50:29 -!- myu2 [~myu2@w177040.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:53:40 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-33-186-44.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:56:02 -!- HG` [~HG@dslb-178-001-126-061.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: HG`] 20:58:24 -!- rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:58:56 *Xach* looks around for the next purge victim 20:59:09 ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-32-125-145.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 20:59:15 Edler [~Edler@184.175.0.246] has joined #lisp 20:59:39 hey guys i'm just here by curiosity. Can you program any good web app with list ? 21:00:25 -!- mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.255.252] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:02:07 yes 21:02:13 *lichtblau* is safe! -- still one visible dot left 21:04:20 (That should give me a month or so to make it spark again, right?) 21:05:03 *stassats* is lucky to not have a blog 21:05:05 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:05:35 I'd blog more, but... then I'd have to kill you all 21:06:11 we'll sign the NDA! 21:06:35 Krystof: when are you going to write for CQ. Or would that entail killing me too? 21:07:07 I just filled in the UK census 21:07:18 one of the questions was "are you actively looking for more work?" 21:07:23 hahaha 21:07:30 is there a "hahaha" option? 21:07:33 strangely none of the available multichoice answers was "O dear god no please please no" 21:07:34 -!- seelenquell [~seelenque@p5DD34938.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:08:40 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-193-241-28.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:08:43 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:08:59 -!- JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Exeunt IRC] 21:09:06 Do any of you international/multilingual types know of anyway to search across multiple Amazons? 21:09:06 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:09:26 I'm trying to figure out how many languages Coders at Work is available in. 21:11:02 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:11:35 varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 21:12:01 haha, the restart-bind thing broke my brain. 21:12:25 I think I knew how it behaves, but I never made the dynamic-flet connection 21:12:34 gigamonkey: add Russian (no amazon, though) 21:12:50 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:13:01 restart functions /usually/ perform non-local transfers of control. Turns out that "usually" is the case 21:15:15 -!- dmytrish [~dmytrish@inherent.puzzler.volia.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:18:34 adobriyan: thanks. 21:19:19 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:19:30 gigamonkey: judging by my experience of working in the Software Industry, I can see an interesting article series on probability and statistics 21:19:40 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-136-158.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:19:49 the "when", though... well, maybe soon I will be a gazillionnaire! 21:19:56 (or maybe not) 21:20:48 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-193-241-28.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:20:56 Krystof: yeah, I really want someone to write something about R. 21:21:02 I actually had some folks signed up but then they flaked. 21:21:52 FareWell [~Fare@64.119.159.126] has joined #lisp 21:22:12 -!- Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:22:52 -!- FareWell is now known as Fare 21:23:28 huh, I could do that now 21:23:37 given more hours in the day 21:23:45 as opposed to the fewer that today has brought 21:23:52 Houl [~Miranda@unaffiliated/houl] has joined #lisp 21:25:12 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:27:02 myu2 [~myu2@w177040.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 21:28:01 -!- adobriyan [~ad@vulture-nat-38.telecom.by] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:28:02 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:28:07 -!- bonobol [~soenke@aul93-7-88-180-83-248.fbx.proxad.net] has left #lisp 21:29:02 mcspiff [~user@142.68.204.68] has joined #lisp 21:29:28 -!- Joreji [~thomas@85-183.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:29:35 Landr [Hraban@78-22-145-87.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 21:30:14 -!- mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:31:56 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-148-187.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:33:55 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@186.214.240.145] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:34:15 Mococa [~Mococa@186.214.240.145] has joined #lisp 21:34:41 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-51-60.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:42:55 TippenEin [~chatzilla@c-24-245-21-197.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:45:53 LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-119-109.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:47:11 mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:47:17 csquared1 [~Adium@65-36-72-203.dyn.grandenetworks.net] has joined #lisp 21:49:53 fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-178-002-104-018.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:51:48 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A33A6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:51:58 -!- ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 21:52:48 Xach: herep 22:01:12 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-178-002-104-018.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 22:01:40 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:02:40 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-175-171.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:04:23 scryer [~metonym@c-24-91-98-38.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:06:13 -!- mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:06:57 -!- setmeaway [setmeaway3@118.45.149.204] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:08:05 I swear #lisp has magic powers. Half the time I solve my problem merely by logging on... 22:08:17 -!- nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:08:35 mcspiff: it's the rubber duck debugging methodology 22:08:43 nust 22:08:45 bah 22:08:58 heh thats exactly it I bet 22:09:04 just formulating the question makes you think about it in a different way and often spot the mistake 22:10:35 its also easy to forget how much information a decent lisp enviroment gives you access to. I start collecting bits and pieces in a buffer or a pastebin and next thing its staring me in the face 22:11:51 yep 22:12:40 MoALTz_ [~no@92.8.224.244] has joined #lisp 22:12:57 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:13:22 setmeaway [setmeaway3@118.45.149.204] has joined #lisp 22:14:39 youguy [~youguy@157.pool85-56-97.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 22:14:44 -!- myu2 [~myu2@w177040.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:15:39 mcspiff: Reminds me of this: http://twitter.com/#!/dbrady/status/28206937510252544 22:15:46 -!- Edler [~Edler@184.175.0.246] has left #lisp 22:15:56 -!- MoALTz [~no@92.18.162.215] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:17:18 I have an emacs function called "my-run" which does (slime-load-file "foo.lisp") (slime-interactive-eval "(test-foo)"). The problem is that it gets intermittently out of sync. Sometimes I have to call my-run two or three times in order to see the change. Sometimes it works on the first try. 22:17:30 antoszka: thats perfect 22:17:34 -!- david` [~david@ec2-174-129-245-152.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has left #lisp 22:17:43 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 22:17:51 -!- basho__ [~basho__@dslb-188-108-011-225.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:18:05 mcspiff: Took me about five minutes to google out :) Glad I got the search-engine thing figured out, too :) 22:18:14 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 22:20:34 mon_key` [~user@209.12.98.224] has joined #lisp 22:20:44 Hello Lispers! 22:21:19 -!- mcspiff [~user@142.68.204.68] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:21:24 hello mon_key` 22:21:25 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755b76.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:23:23 mcspiff [~user@142.68.204.68] has joined #lisp 22:23:40 lo 22:24:17 when building SBCL the file make.sh sets LANG=C and LC_ALL=C this seems to have the annoying effect on my slightly out of date slackware dist of causing the resulting build to have its sb-impl::*default-external-format* as :latin-1 which in turn causes me some grief when working with SBCL's on other machines with more UTF-8 friednly locales 22:24:55 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-148-187.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 22:25:31 So, the question is: Should i set LANG and LC_ALL in make.sh or instead add (setf sb-impl::*default-external-format* :UTF-8) to my .sbclrc ??? 22:25:33 the default external format is determined at runtime, the compile time locale has no effect 22:25:46 neither, you should set the locale correctly when you start sbcl 22:26:26 I'm not adept with such things. how 22:26:52 export LANG=blah LC_ALL=blah in some bash or so 22:26:58 LC_CTYPE=whatever 22:27:09 Real simple emacs key binding: load a file, run a test. Can't get it to work. https://gist.github.com/889706 22:27:09 *> set e LANG=en_US.UTF-8 22:27:46 What happens is that I have to hit the key several times before it reflects the change I made to my-test.lisp. 22:28:08 jsnell: How does this interact with affect slime/swank/emacs ? 22:28:11 plus, it doesn't give me the output of (test-all). It always shows the pathname instead. 22:28:52 -!- CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:29:46 this is with ccl 22:30:44 I'll test with another lisp -- I can't imagine what's wrong with such a simple case. 22:30:52 scryer: why don't you use slime-load-file? 22:31:36 mon_key`: no idea. LC_CTYPE is the correct way to set the charset, feel free to do it or not 22:31:56 -!- dkasak [~dkasak@dh207-101-71.xnet.hr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:32:31 mon_key`: I do use slime-load-file. That's in the link. 22:32:46 jsnell: I don't want to set the global LC_CTYPE 22:33:27 using a different LC_CTYPE for your lisp process does not sound like a good idea 22:33:46 but if you want to shoot yourself in the foot, write a wrapper script that sets it 22:34:03 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:34:08 but trying to set environment variables at compile time will have no effect 22:34:26 and poking at unexported internal SBCL variables is not supported 22:38:14 jsnell: OK. If the default external format is determined at runtime then whats the problem with setting *default-external-format*? 22:38:33 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 22:39:08 sbcl developers reserve the right to change the implementation of that variable 22:39:47 also, there are in fact multiple internal default external format variables, you'd only be changing one 22:39:59 gigamonkey: what's up? 22:40:19 and then complaining when sbcl reads your utf-8 encoded filenames wrong, or something 22:41:49 any closure-html/cxml experts know why a call to dom:map-document with a chtml:make-string-sink fails but cxml:make-string-sink works fine? 22:42:13 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-148-187.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:44:24 jsnell: :) sbcl exposes stream-external-format and AFAIK is shipping with :SB-UNICODE by default. I'd just like my SBCL slime/swank/emacs setup on this one machine to play nice. Maybe I'm doing something wrong but setting LC_CTYPE globally seems heavy handed... 22:45:02 Is there a way to see the value of the last expression in a file loaded via slime-load-file? 22:45:47 scryer: use slime-eval-region, not slime-load-file (: 22:46:01 load-file doesn't have any repl-like effects at all 22:47:09 mon_key`: Setting the system locale is the supported interface. I'm sorry that you don't like that answer (and that I wasted time supplying it). Please feel free to do whatever you want 22:47:19 antifuchs: the purpose of this is to reload a file automatically in a key bind. https://gist.github.com/889706 22:47:29 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:47:29 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:47:47 I've tried moving the (test-all) to the end of the loaded file, but then I don't have access to the result. 22:47:52 scryer: yeah. 22:47:55 that's what happens 22:48:05 dkasak [~dkasak@dh207-101-71.xnet.hr] has joined #lisp 22:48:21 actually it doesn't work at all (fails intermittently), but that's a different problem I assume. 22:48:30 scryer: slime-load-file uses LOAD, which just ignores the value of the last top-level form 22:49:08 Is there any method of doing what I want? Load a file. Call a function. Sounds easy. Can't do it. 22:49:41 Or load a file with a function called at the end. Can't do that either. 22:50:14 jsnell: Thanks for your help. The answer was fine. I'm simply trying to understand how to interact with that interface. 22:50:57 in the file, you could do (defparameter *test-result* (test-all)) then inspect that variable 22:53:12 mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:55:50 *mcspiff* should learn to save his scratch buffers. Trawling through a months worth of #lisp logs isn't exactly fun 22:56:27 -!- Buganini [~buganini@security-hole.info] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:56:36 antifuchs: that has the same problem. replacing (slime-interactive-eval "(cl-user::test-all)") with (slime-interactive-eval "(print *test-result*)"), it still prints the pathname of my-test.cl rather than the test result (from the gist https://gist.github.com/889706) 22:56:42 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.220.163] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 22:56:45 -!- varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:56:58 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-136-52-105.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:57:12 my-test.lisp, that is 22:58:26 I guess slime-load-file is happening on a separate thread? 22:58:40 That's why these results are indeterminate and generally useless? 22:58:54 -!- eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has quit [Quit: eugu] 22:59:02 scryer: um. it just might, yeah 22:59:33 Buganini [~buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 22:59:50 redline6561 [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:01:24 kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-168-65.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 23:02:08 scryer: as a really dirty hack you could call print from the file and write the results to a tmp file and then have Emacs and/or slime read that files contents as a return value 23:02:40 yes I was just thinking about giving the contents of the file to slime-interactive-eval 23:02:54 also whats in *slime-events*? 23:03:35 -!- youguy [~youguy@157.pool85-56-97.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 23:04:51 mon_key`: there's no errors, if that's what you mean. :write-string appears before the :ok for the slime-load-file, confirming that it's probably on a separate thread. 23:05:47 scryer: I was wondering if there was maybe output going there... e.g. maybe you could save point prior to the eval and then just grab the region... 23:06:46 -!- dkasak [~dkasak@dh207-101-71.xnet.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:08:21 MoALTz__ [~no@92.8.224.244] has joined #lisp 23:08:41 dkasak [~dkasak@dh207-103-204.xnet.hr] has joined #lisp 23:09:13 tcr [~tcr@92.58.136.182] has joined #lisp 23:09:52 Is there a trivial library for command line arguments? 23:09:54 I'm puzzled regarding why this is apparently an uncommon operation, given that it doesn't work. How else do people test, other than: (1) add a test (2) smack the run-test key. 23:10:24 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@92.8.224.244] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:10:38 mon_key`` [~user@209.12.98.224] has joined #lisp 23:10:41 scryer: run the test from the repl 23:11:16 -!- mon_key` [~user@209.12.98.224] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:11:37 mcspiff: well of course -- too bad it can't be automated with a keystroke. 23:11:42 drdo: obtaining them, or processing them? 23:12:07 -!- mon_key`` [~user@209.12.98.224] has quit [Client Quit] 23:12:08 pjb: gassé wasn't _so_ bad, it was sculley, sindler and amelio that were truly awful 23:12:11 spindler 23:12:21 drdo: i know of several for the latter, but offhand i only know of cl-launch as a portability library for the former. 23:12:48 cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.139.95.133] has joined #lisp 23:13:04 well I'll do the brute-force way of giving the file contents to slime-interactive-eval. I'm rather amazed that I have to do this. 23:13:46 scryer: (setq last-kbd-macro 23:13:47 [?\C-x ?b ?r ?e ?p ?l return ?\( ?r ?u ?n ?- ?t ?e ?s ?t return]) 23:13:47 23:14:13 scryer: You're amazed that Lisp habits differ from non-Lisp habits? 23:14:54 Xach: obtaining 23:14:55 Xach: are you saying that testing is not a lisp habit? It should be. 23:15:21 And making things automatic should also be a habit. 23:15:24 It's really only to pass off to gstreamer 23:15:45 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 23:15:50 scryer: It's up to you to lead by example. 23:15:53 For some reason these libraries of the gnome family insist on this 23:16:19 scryer: if you're not familiar with emacs, that binds a keyboard macro that switches to the repl, and runs the (run-test) function. Repeat with C-x e. Can be turned into a function and bound to a key as needed. 23:18:16 scryer: also, if you want to look more into lisp testing, check out https://svn.sift.info:3333/trac/nst/wiki 23:19:33 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:19:53 mcspiff: my (test-all) is a stefil suite. I tried a few other frameworks, but liked how stefil integrated with emacs for test failures, etc. 23:19:56 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has joined #lisp 23:21:07 -!- mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:21:30 it has some good restarts, too 23:21:30 mcspiff` [~user@142.68.204.68] has joined #lisp 23:21:35 -!- mcspiff [~user@142.68.204.68] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:21:47 -!- mcspiff` is now known as mcspiff 23:22:02 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Quit: Adamant] 23:28:52 slyrus: Yes. That's my point. It's Gassé who made the MacII, the open Mac. 23:29:17 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-148-187.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 23:30:47 -!- Houl [~Miranda@unaffiliated/houl] has quit [Quit: weil das Wetter so schön ist] 23:31:00 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:31:37 -!- cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.139.95.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:32:29 -!- borkaman` [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:34:53 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-119-109.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:35:18 -!- xinming [~hyy@122.238.77.112] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:35:33 nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has joined #lisp 23:35:34 -!- nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has quit [Changing host] 23:35:34 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 23:37:23 Is there an emacs function which brings point to top level directly after the current form? That would be the best way to implement auto-retest. 23:37:37 -!- mcspiff [~user@142.68.204.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:38:22 CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 23:38:23 then it would just be (slime-eval-last-expression) (slime-interactive-eval "(test-all)") 23:38:30 borkamaniac [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 23:39:03 C-M-u C-M-f ? 23:39:21 yes but the number of levels is unknown 23:42:27 Well one could do (paredit-forward-up) say 20 times. Crude but effective. 23:44:49 slime-end-of-defun 23:44:58 C-M-e 23:46:41 gonzojive [~red@pool-96-255-78-59.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:46:56 Yo Xach. 23:47:08 hello 23:47:10 You've used VirtualBox on a Mac host. 23:47:16 ? 23:48:11 gigamonkey: I have 23:48:14 incandenza: thanks. I didn't realized that worked for any form. (sorta misnamed in that regard). 23:49:00 And it's not unbearably slow? 23:49:25 I have a fairly late-model MBP and starting a VM with Windows 7 in it takes many tens of seconds. 23:49:31 gigamonkey: it was pretty fast for ubuntu on my 2008-era macbook 23:49:36 gigamonkey: never tried windows 23:49:56 Hmmmm. Maybe I should try Ubuntu just to seee 23:50:21 gigamonkey: performance on my ubuntu virtualbox host was pretty awful. i think the disk was the bottleneck. 23:50:34 windows xp was quite sluggish. 23:51:41 You have a regular mechanical disk in your macbook? 23:52:45 I have a 2007 mac which runs ubuntu well in VirtualBox. I imagine a fixed-sized virtual disk file helps. 23:53:44 Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-54-177-186.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:53:44 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-54-177-186.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 23:53:44 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 23:54:13 -!- tcr [~tcr@92.58.136.182] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:02:23 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-148-187.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:04:18 It looks like slime-interactive-eval is on a separate thread (either instead or in addition to slime-load-file). The newly evaled expression is not reflected in test-all: (slime-eval-last-expression) (slime-interactive-eval "(test-all)") 00:04:23 -!- zmv [~daniel@c934ad95.virtua.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:05:00 Or maybe the other way around. This is strange. 00:05:34 MoALTz [~no@92.18.15.88] has joined #lisp 00:06:06 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:06:24 -!- MoALTz__ [~no@92.8.224.244] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:06:28 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-78-36-178-121.static.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:15:15 barthaj [~mandelio@ool-457c37c3.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 00:15:30 mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:15:32 -!- barthaj [~mandelio@ool-457c37c3.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:16:02 tauntaun [~mandelio@ool-457c37c3.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 00:19:37 MoALTz_ [~no@92.18.13.118] has joined #lisp 00:19:56 -!- MoALTz [~no@92.18.15.88] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:22:40 -!- lifeng [~lifeng@bb116-14-191-157.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 00:23:17 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has joined #lisp 00:23:17 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has quit [Client Quit] 00:23:45 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:30:17 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has joined #lisp 00:33:09 LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-119-109.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:34:42 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-148-187.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:36:17 realitygrill [~realitygr@24.208.248.193] has joined #lisp 00:37:27 cmm [~cmm@109.65.203.181] has joined #lisp 00:38:02 Right now I've concluded that the evaluation of (slime-call-1) (slime-call-2) has no guarantee that slime-call-1's effects will be reflected in slime-call-2. 00:38:20 -!- csquared1 [~Adium@65-36-72-203.dyn.grandenetworks.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:39:43 Presumably this problem is not normally encountered because there is a human-interaction pause between the two calls. 00:39:52 -!- cmm- [~cmm@bzq-79-176-209-182.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:40:22 But when they are tied together with an emacs function, the result is indeterminate. 00:40:38 Perhaps you should evaluate (progn (slime-call-1) (slime-call-2))? 00:40:43 yeah tried that 00:40:48 no difference 00:41:31 Tried moving the PROGN "inward", towards the inferior-lisp? 00:41:55 -!- jkraw [~jkraw@pc-212-191-78-200.p.lodz.pl] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:42:09 Tried looking to see if it's an asynchronous eval and if so either how to wait for an asynchronous eval to complete or how to perform a synchronous eval? 00:42:49 yes, my next step was to delve into the slime/swank code. Maybe there is a synchronizer. 00:43:43 Good luck, then. 00:44:15 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:45:00 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:45:28 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-39-6-229.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:50:57 What's the best way to do generic programming in Lisp? 00:51:19 Not polymorphic --- general in the C++ sense, where we generate appropriate functions at compile time for certain operations. 00:52:02 TippenEin_ [~chatzilla@c-24-245-21-197.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:52:18 Say I have a grammar structure, a parser structure, and a grammar-compile function that takes a grammar, a set of stream operations, some compilation options, and produces a parser. 00:52:50 I'd like the stream passed to the compile function to be any arbitrary type that supports certain options: get next symbol, tell, rewind, and so on. 00:53:06 Granted, I can do this trivially at runtime. 00:53:10 -!- TippenEin [~chatzilla@c-24-245-21-197.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:53:11 -!- TippenEin_ is now known as TippenEin 00:53:38 But I'd like to use the proper operations directly at *compile* time, and because CLOS is so dynamic, the compiler can't directly inline the various stream functions. 00:54:39 bah, sleep-for 0 100 is good enough. the poor man's race condition avoidance strategy. 00:54:44 So my thought was to supply another structure to the grammar compilation function, say, (defstruct stream-ops get-next tell rewind), and then have the code generated by the parser (which it then compiles) use the slot values of this structure as function names to call. 00:54:53 That'll work fine, but it seems kind of ugly and ad-hoc. 00:54:59 Is there a more idiomatic way of doing what I want? 00:59:03 msponge [~msponge@149-169-131-50.nat.asu.edu] has joined #lisp 00:59:03 -!- msponge [~msponge@149-169-131-50.nat.asu.edu] has quit [Excess Flood] 01:01:03 lifeng [~lifeng@155.69.43.70] has joined #lisp 01:02:07 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:02:49 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-119-202.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:03:52 dlila [~dlila@CPE0014d1c9243c-CM001bd71cede2.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 01:04:33 quotemstr: cl-ppcre has an interesting approach to runtime compilation without using cl:compile 01:04:38 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@24.208.248.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:04:39 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 01:04:50 Xach: Bytecode? 01:05:13 Xach: Well, in this environment, the compiler will be available regardless. 01:05:59 quotemstr: chains of closures 01:06:31 Xach: That's what I had in mind too, but each closure still needs to be compiled. 01:06:50 quotemstr: it's compiled in the distant past. 01:06:58 Xach: *Either* a system has to execute indirectly using some set of pre-compiled building blocks or it has to be compiled on the fly. 01:07:12 Xach: Fair enough. 01:07:29 that is, when cl-ppcre was compiled and loaded 01:07:36 not when the regex scanner was created 01:08:28 pnq [~nick@AC824D5E.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 01:08:53 quotemstr: why aren't get-next, tell, rewind available at compile-time? Is this just a matter of eval-when? 01:09:08 They are available at compile time. 01:09:10 THe grammars aren't. 01:09:13 cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.139.95.133] has joined #lisp 01:10:09 This is elisp. Elisp is quite slow (only about 6 million conses per second on my Core 2 machine), so I want to minimize the amount of indirection involved. 01:10:24 The best way to do that seems to pay for it all up front by compiling each grammar state into its own function. 01:10:34 elisp! 01:10:53 And if I'm doing that, I might as well compile in the stream functions as direct references instead of runtime-polymorphic calls. 01:10:57 killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has joined #lisp 01:11:19 (That way, something like (stream-tell) could compile directly down to (point), which is a single bytecode instruction.) 01:11:45 Xach: The one, the only. 01:11:56 Xach: Did you hear that we're getting true lexical scope, by the way? 01:12:03 quotemstr: why doesn't eval-when solve it, as long as the functions are defined first? 01:12:33 Hmm. I'm working a bit on cxml and all. I'm trying to parse an rest-response from a server (ebongo). The code I'm using is here: https://gist.github.com/889837 - The child nodes portion is the really confusing part. Looking through the documentation I'm unsure of how to pull out attributes out of the child nodes. 01:12:38 scryer: Hrm. Think of it this way. 01:12:49 *Xach* regrets squandering a moment's brainpower on the question 01:13:00 Xach: Why? It's as much a Lisp as any other. 01:13:00 Has anyone used cxml and knows perhaps a way of parsing this? 01:13:40 csquared [~Adium@71.22.111.81] has joined #lisp 01:13:55 quotemstr: This channel is for Common Lisp, and I find trying to think solutions in the context and constraints of elisp not a good use of my time here. What works fine in CL will not work fine in elisp. 01:13:56 -!- csquared [~Adium@71.22.111.81] has left #lisp 01:14:09 scryer: Say we have a stream type S, known at compile time. We have three options on S: (get-next-symbol (s S)), (tell (s S)) [yielding a position P_S), and (rewind (s S) (p P_S)) 01:14:35 I also just added a comment to my gist that gives what I'm getting for the child nodes. 01:14:45 Xach: I've found the languages similar enough that techniques readily transfer. They're mutually intelligible. 01:16:39 I don't use the subset of CL where that makes sense. 01:16:45 scryer: We have three contexts: 1) when we compile the whole module (compile time), 2) grammar compilation time, when we take a grammar g and a stream type S and create a parser, and 3) runtime, when we use the generated parser on an instance of S. 01:17:30 scryer: S and g aren't known at compile time. S is known at grammar compilation time, but the particular stream instance is not. 01:18:43 scryer: The grammar compilation function uses the Lisp compiler at grammar compilation time to generate the parser, so with respect to the parser itself, grammar compilation time is compile time. 01:18:49 quotemstr: your grammar isn't known at compile time? 01:19:23 g is unknown? 01:19:25 scryer: The challenge is the best way to communicate information about S to the grammar compilation function so that the generated code can be as efficient as possible. 01:19:44 scryer: g is not known at module compile time; it's only known at grammar compile time. 01:20:14 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:20:51 Xach: Besides packages, I don't miss much. 01:21:29 scryer: The problem is that we don't have any good way to represent S as a *value*. Sure, we can give the grammar-compiler a type predicate. 01:22:12 scryer: But a type predicate alone isn't enough information to fully resolve calls to S' stream functions even in an environment as good as SBCL's. 01:22:23 -!- Buganini [~buganini@security-hole.info] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:22:36 so S is basically a monad, hence the chain of closures thing. 01:23:04 scryer: If S is a CLOS class, then, because we're allowed to change method implementations after a parser is compiled from a grammar, we're not allowed to fully inline operations on S. 01:23:30 Buganini [~buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 01:23:49 scryer: In a sense, sure, but I don't see how that helps. In the monad construction, we'd just lazily compile operations on S at runtime. 01:24:26 well it only help in the sense of me categorizing what the thing is. 01:24:41 Ah, I see. 01:25:46 So my best approach now is to represent S as a set of symbols referring to macros. The grammar compiler would then use these symbols in call positions in the code passed to the compiler during grammar compilation. 01:25:59 The only problem with that approach is that it's pretty ad-hoc. 01:27:10 AFAIK, there's no CLOS mechanism to resolve a generic function early given explicit type information. 01:28:09 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:31:05 quotemstr: so S accumulates a bunch of operations-as-state, and then you go back and make them operations-as-functions. That doesn't sound particularly ad hoc to me. 01:32:08 I should have said operations-as-accumulated-data-representing-state 01:32:42 Hrm. 01:32:44 msponge [~msponge@149-169-131-50.nat.asu.edu] has joined #lisp 01:32:48 I *could* represent it as a real monad. 01:34:35 I thought we were talking about "real" monads, i.e., the lisp greenspunning of them. 01:34:48 or reverse-greenspunning, as the case may be 01:34:49 -!- mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:34:53 -!- dlila [~dlila@CPE0014d1c9243c-CM001bd71cede2.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:36:38 Heh. You can think of it that way, but I figure that using simple, concrete monad composition would create too many indirect calls. 01:37:25 And yes, every sufficiently complex backtracking algorithm implementation contains an ad hoc, informally-specified, bug-ridden slow implementation of half of Haskell. :-) 01:37:39 (Or Prolog) 01:38:43 -!- TDT [~user@74.115.254.25] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:38:46 Why would there be any indirect calls? Are you saying the replacement would be too complex? 01:39:27 scryer: It's complicated by the whole system being written using CPS because we need to save intermediate parser state every so often, and we have no call/cc. 01:42:05 -!- tauntaun [~mandelio@ool-457c37c3.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 01:42:30 -!- gonzojive [~red@pool-96-255-78-59.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 01:42:43 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:44:23 c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 01:46:48 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 01:48:08 Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.143.74.32] has joined #lisp 01:50:21 quotemstr: is the replacement with CPS really much more difficult? It doesn't seem like a barrier to me. 01:50:30 -!- malbertife [~marcoalbe@bl5-19-133.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:51:29 antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 01:51:39 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:52:22 lusory [~bart@bb219-74-100-75.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 01:52:40 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-76-254-45-145.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:52:46 michael_lf [~michael@117.32.153.145] has joined #lisp 01:54:13 gary-s [~gary@186.42.102.50] has joined #lisp 01:55:04 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:55:43 malbertife [~marcoalbe@bl11-212-207.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 01:56:33 gigamonkey might want to try giving his VM more or less RAM, and seeing if the VT stuff is enabled in the BIOS, although it's probably nothing that obvious. 01:58:58 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-76-254-45-145.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:59:34 aliudalius [~user@c-75-72-166-36.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:05:57 -!- zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:07:00 -!- gary-s [~gary@186.42.102.50] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:07:26 gary-s [~gary@186.42.102.50] has joined #lisp 02:07:55 -!- gary-s [~gary@186.42.102.50] has quit [Client Quit] 02:08:17 gary-s [~gary@186.42.102.50] has joined #lisp 02:09:17 madsenz [~madsenz@n11z181l194.static.ctm.net] has joined #lisp 02:17:43 -!- paradoja [~paradoja@acceso-cmp174-55.lpa.idec.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:19:25 -!- aliudalius [~user@c-75-72-166-36.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:20:32 -!- tenawa [~user@adsl-75-53-123-94.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:23:17 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 02:23:53 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@92.18.13.118] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:24:24 Yuuhi``` [benni@p54839C83.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:26:00 -!- Yuuhi`` [benni@p5483B1D4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:28:58 -!- timack [~tim@hlfx50-2-142177100216.ppp-dynamic.dial.ns.bellaliant.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:31:02 -!- lusory [~bart@bb219-74-100-75.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:34:11 JuniorRoy [~Work@ns.nkmk.ru] has joined #lisp 02:34:48 *JuniorRoy* wave hello 02:35:01 *pjb* particule hello 02:36:28 :-D 02:39:00 mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:39:18 madsenz1 [~madsenz@n11z181l194.static.ctm.net] has joined #lisp 02:39:53 -!- madsenz [~madsenz@n11z181l194.static.ctm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:40:43 rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 02:43:09 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@nat/cisco/x-drzsegnakjjixwcc] has joined #lisp 02:43:13 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@nat/cisco/x-drzsegnakjjixwcc] has quit [Changing host] 02:43:13 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@fsf/member/vu3rdd] has joined #lisp 02:44:23 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.84.148] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:44:30 scryer: what does grenspunning a monad mean? 02:45:03 Haskellspuning? 02:46:28 theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.63.148] has joined #lisp 02:48:52 slyrus: I gave the option of calling it reverse-greenspunning, for those concerned about direction 02:50:18 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 02:52:18 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:54:56 msponge_ [~msponge@149-169-138-163.nat.asu.edu] has joined #lisp 02:56:47 -!- msponge [~msponge@149-169-131-50.nat.asu.edu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:56:47 -!- msponge_ is now known as msponge 02:57:00 It means making a monad in lisp. 03:00:34 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:00:42 -!- dkasak [~dkasak@dh207-103-204.xnet.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:02:07 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-eefjadvsmoymqqox] has joined #lisp 03:03:05 -!- azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:04:41 -!- msponge [~msponge@149-169-138-163.nat.asu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:10:02 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@186.214.240.145] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:14:46 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@96.237.121.111] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 03:17:44 -!- gary-s [~gary@186.42.102.50] has quit [Quit: gary-s] 03:26:11 -!- c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:27:04 leo2007 [~leo@th041068.ip.tsinghua.edu.cn] has joined #lisp 03:28:54 Speaking of reverse Greenspunning --- I'd love a destructuring-case. 03:29:05 *quotemstr* ports the common-idioms code. 03:29:23 Hrm. The Cliki link is broken. 03:30:56 quotemstr: Isn't that in alexandria? 03:31:03 *quotemstr* checks. 03:31:16 mcspiff [~user@142.68.204.68] has joined #lisp 03:31:22 destructuring case? would pattern matching be a better term to google for? 03:31:42 Yep it is 03:31:49 pkhuong: Sure, but destructuring-case would be the expected name of the Lisp macro implementing it, I'd think. 03:31:59 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@web30.webfaction.com] has quit [Quit: out] 03:32:07 But you're right: there's cl-match. 03:32:26 kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-dvtwnapatzbpktbp] has joined #lisp 03:32:26 -!- kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-dvtwnapatzbpktbp] has quit [Changing host] 03:32:26 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 03:32:29 milkpost [~milkpost@web30.webfaction.com] has joined #lisp 03:33:22 -!- mcspiff [~user@142.68.204.68] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:35:28 Thanks for the Alexandria tip. It looks good. 03:37:22 or fare-matcher 03:38:54 Ah, no it's not. 03:38:57 SidH__ [~SidH_@203.101.61.10] has joined #lisp 03:39:03 enthymeme [~kraken@cpe-76-171-245-75.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:39:15 Upon closer inspection, its destructuring-case decides which clause to use like a normal case, *then* destructures. 03:39:32 echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 03:39:36 Fare: No relation, I'm sure. :-) 03:40:04 I just don't quite understand why something like cl-match has to be so complex: can't you just try destructuring-bind until it works? 03:40:51 (Granted, it's not quite as general, but sometimes you don't need generality.) 03:43:08 -!- mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:43:12 nixfreak [~nixfreak@mn-10k-dhcp1-3174.dsl.hickorytech.net] has joined #lisp 03:43:15 Fare: The fare-matcher git repository is broken. 03:44:35 -!- albino [~albino@69.12.222.214] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:45:45 -!- StrmSrfr [~storm@adsl-32-177-233.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:46:25 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-119-109.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:46:57 Good morning everyone! 03:47:11 Fare: Though fare-matcher looks super-neat, I must say. 03:47:41 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: "Object-oriented design" is an oxymoron] 03:48:10 oops, it's broken? how so? 03:48:29 Fare: fatal: http://common-lisp.net/gitweb?p=users/frideau/fare-matcher.git/info/refs not found: did you run git update-server-info on the server? 03:49:14 myu2 [~myu2@v051158.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 03:50:30 weird. There's a hook to do that. What now? 03:50:51 Ask #git? 03:52:20 I mean - does it work for you now? 03:52:37 Same issue. 03:52:55 -!- myu2 [~myu2@v051158.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:56:31 ok, try again 03:56:39 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@cpe-76-171-245-75.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 03:56:57 TheRealLongshot_ [~longshot@180.184.8.3] has joined #lisp 03:57:22 what are you trying to do, already? 03:57:50 git clone git://common-lisp.net/users/frideau/fare-matcher.git 03:58:19 -!- cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.139.95.133] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.16/20110319135224]] 03:58:29 -!- Onyxyte [~Onyxyte@r75-110-112-109.rmntcmtc02.rcmtnc.ab.dh.suddenlink.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:58:55 Yep. 03:59:11 It works now. Thanks! 04:00:23 enthymeme [~kraken@cpe-76-171-245-75.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:00:53 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: sbahra] 04:00:54 -!- TheRealLongshot [~longshot@207.204.232.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:01:05 -!- TheRealLongshot_ [~longshot@180.184.8.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:01:06 you should now be able to match patterns like `(constant ,variable ,@rest) 04:04:46 -!- pvaneynd [~pvaneynd@77.109.103.112] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:05:27 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:05:35 mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:07:47 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:09:15 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 04:10:19 Onyxyte [~Onyxyte@r75-110-112-109.rmntcmtc02.rcmtnc.ab.dh.suddenlink.net] has joined #lisp 04:13:38 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.63.148] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:16:36 -!- symbole [~user@ool-182ff693.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:17:08 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 04:17:09 theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.84.192] has joined #lisp 04:25:39 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-51-60.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 04:26:20 -!- TippenEin [~chatzilla@c-24-245-21-197.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has left #lisp 04:36:38 xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.12.183] has joined #lisp 04:45:03 -!- naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:45:16 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:46:04 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.100.226.227] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:46:07 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 04:47:21 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@vpnsh0041.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 04:48:10 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@vpnsh0041.fh-trier.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:53:02 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:55:01 naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has joined #lisp 05:00:28 McLeopold [~Scott.Bri@c-98-247-248-39.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:01:18 -!- leo2007 [~leo@th041068.ip.tsinghua.edu.cn] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.3.50.1] 05:01:53 TheRealLongshot [~longshot@207.204.232.138] has joined #lisp 05:04:34 could someone tell me how to prevent read-char from waiting for a newline before returning? I assume it is some buffering? I'm using clisp. 05:05:31 read-char doesn't wait. 05:05:39 -!- pnq [~nick@AC824D5E.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:05:43 (for a new line) 05:05:56 It is probably your terminal -- man termios, and look at your posix support. 05:06:25 Actually, with clisp it might be using readline, so ymmv. 05:06:35 Well, I've got a read-char.lisp file with "(read-char)", and run "clisp read-char.lisp" and I can type a bunch without the program ending 05:06:45 In the worst case you could open /dev/stdin or equivalent. 05:07:08 man stty and turn off canonical mode manually, then repeat. 05:07:16 I'm in windows 05:07:33 You are being punished for your unnatural behaviour. 05:07:37 :) 05:07:45 still, is there some buffer options I can set? 05:07:51 I do not know. 05:07:53 Or is this really an os issue? 05:08:56 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 05:08:57 it's os damnation 05:09:20 I think the same was happening to me in my ubuntu box 05:09:37 It's really an os issue, but since windows has weak terminal support it is more complicated -- the implementation might be emulating the temrinal for you ... 05:09:47 In ubuntu, use stty as I suggested to diagnose the problem. 05:10:43 -!- JuniorRoy [~Work@ns.nkmk.ru] has quit [Quit: Out] 05:11:47 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:14:41 Although I know nil is identical to the empty list, I somehow expected that a function-type slot could hold nil. Unless there is some canonical way to handle this, I'll just make my own nil-function constant. 05:15:34 what are you talking about? 05:16:24 scryer: Maybe you want to think about 'unbound' rather than 'nil'. 05:16:50 Or maybe you want to think about a type like (or function null) 05:16:51 stassats: (defstruct foo (thing nil :type function)) is an error 05:17:16 it is? 05:17:17 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-51-60.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:17:46 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-51-60.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 05:18:01 HG` [~HG@dslb-188-109-170-222.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 05:18:05 yes, because nil isn't a function, it's a list 05:18:08 It is not correct, yes. 05:18:29 So pick an appropriate type like (or function null). 05:19:34 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:19:49 no, the slot definition is correct 05:20:18 -!- HG` [~HG@dslb-188-109-170-222.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:22:06 -!- billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:22:21 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-51-60.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:23:26 clhs defstruct 05:23:27 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defstr.htm 05:23:43 is there a run-time overhead for (thing nil :type (or function null)), as opposed to (thing do-nothing :type function)? 05:23:50 "The slot-initform is not evaluated unless it is needed in the creation of a particular structure instance. If it is never needed, there can be no type-mismatch error, even if the type of the slot is specified; no warning should be issued in this case." 05:24:46 scryer: There is run-time overhead for both ... 05:25:07 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:25:16 oh, slot types are not an optimization? 05:25:56 Fundamentally they are a promise to the compiler. 05:26:09 Making it undefined behaviour to violate that promise. 05:26:20 That promise might be used for optimization by the compiler. 05:26:28 though, arguably, (defstruct foo (thing (error "`thing' slot is required!") :type function)) would be better than NIL 05:26:32 quicklisp seems to have broken my maxima install 05:26:40 whenever I run maxima I get errors like: can't create directory /home/juergen/ 05:26:52 (no such user exists on my system) 05:26:56 any idea how I can suppress these? 05:27:04 change your name 05:27:14 (or function null) is likely to be more expensive than function. 05:27:15 tenawa [~user@adsl-75-53-123-94.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:27:22 a real solution would be preferable 05:27:27 why would there be overhead for :type function? If anything, overhead should be removed. 05:27:27 So, the question remains -- why do you want to be able to have nil there? 05:27:59 debugging might be bigger because of an explicit check 05:28:08 Well, why? 05:28:20 meanwhile, it doesn't break paktahn at all 05:31:20 if you don't want the overhead, don't specify a type 05:31:25 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-219-94.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 05:31:34 I guess CCL is technically non-conforming, then, because I'm not referencing the thing function. 05:31:52 scryer: Why do you want to be able to have nil there? 05:32:23 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-ckrpuwwkdbguybve] has joined #lisp 05:32:28 -!- mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:32:49 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-173-220.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:32:59 Zhivago: because it sometimes has to (temporarily) be nil during construction of bigger stuff. 05:33:13 scyer: No, it doesn't. 05:33:16 It's not nil in the end. 05:33:17 -!- srolls [~user@c-76-126-212-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:33:23 scryer: It doesn't need to be nil at the start, either. 05:33:43 right, it can be some do-nothing const, like I originally suggested. 05:33:52 scryer: Make a function of the appropriate interface that raises a condition, and initialize it to this. 05:34:08 Or use a standard-class intance which supports unbound slots. 05:35:04 how do I get maxima to disregard ~/.sbclrc? 05:35:08 -X --no-userinit doesn't work :/ 05:35:23 "bad runtime option" 05:35:28 try --userinit /dev/null 05:35:29 what's -X? 05:35:47 --no-userinit is relatively (1.5-2 years IIRC) new 05:35:49 scryer: Why do you think CCL is non-conforming? 05:36:01 -X means pass to underlying lisp 05:36:04 antifuchs: same error 05:36:11 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 05:36:20 antifuchs: if I omit -X, it is simply ignored 05:36:48 beach: because as stassats quoted, "The slot-initform is not evaluated unless it is needed in the creation of a particular structure instance. If it is never needed, there can be no type-mismatch error, even if the type of the slot is specified; no warning should be issued in this case." 05:36:50 mnau [~xc344@116.253.155.129] has joined #lisp 05:36:55 mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:37:06 scryer: CCL does exactly as described here 05:38:44 stassats: (make-foo) is an error for (defstruct foo (thing nil :type function)). The thing slot isn't used. What am I not getting? 05:39:12 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:39:20 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.84.192] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:39:31 scryer: The slot initform is needed when you do that. 05:40:22 scryer: The quotation of stassats didn't say anything about using the slot. 05:41:09 "The slot-initform is not evaluated unless it is needed in the creation of a particular structure instance." When is it needed? When is it not needed? 05:41:26 Not referencing "thing" at all, I categorized as "not needed". 05:41:27 scryer: So if you do (make-foo :thing ) every time, and the value of is a function, you won't get an error. 05:41:56 scryer: you have to distinguish between the slot and the initform. 05:42:03 scryer: the initform is nil. 05:42:04 ah ok 05:42:31 scryer: The initform is not needed if you always explicitly initialize the slot. 05:42:37 -!- mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:42:37 alright, so the "not needed" condition means "always supply :thing in make-foo" 05:42:51 k, thanks 05:43:11 no problem. 05:43:46 theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.63.28] has joined #lisp 05:44:10 I was thinking that it could totally ignore the :thing slot until someone paid attention to it. 05:45:08 But if ever that did happen, it obviously wouldn't be a requirement. 05:48:47 -!- scryer [~metonym@c-24-91-98-38.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host 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-!- gavin0 [~g@pool-74-111-197-135.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:17:36 _6502_ [~agriffini@88.149.154.87] has joined #lisp 10:18:03 can one specialize generic methods on types defined by deftype? 10:18:16 no 10:18:23 <_6502_> hello... what is the best way to transform a list into a vector? I think that formally using (apply #'vector x) can have problems with long lists... 10:18:28 you specialize on classes 10:18:38 (coerce list 'vector) 10:18:44 <_3b> _6502_: coerce or make-array :initial-contents 10:18:57 <_6502_> oh.. ok; i' 10:19:01 (map 'vector #'identity list) 10:19:46 <_6502_> i'll look up coerce... i'm using make-array but I didn't like the idea to traverse the list twice (one just for getting the length) 10:20:15 <_6502_> make-array :initial-contents still requires me to provide the exact length 10:20:17 you'd have to in any case 10:20:22 <_6502_> hmmm 10:20:31 <_6502_> true 10:20:32 Or you could pass the length along - just add it up when generating the list 10:20:40 but why do you worry about it? 10:20:42 Or don't generate a list in the first place 10:21:24 <_6502_> ok... i just felt bad doing something of this kind in my code... if it's inside the standard library then it becomes a CL problem :-) 10:21:51 _6502_: O(2N) is O(N) -- the only way to even try to avoid traversing twice would be to guess the length and and if it's long enough truncate the vector after the elements have been copied over (using implementation internal magic) -- but if you guess wrong, you end up copying twice 10:21:59 <_6502_> yeah... probably the best thing is just generating a vector in the first place 10:22:02 if you don't want some kind of non-simple array, just use COERCE 10:22:38 <_6502_> nikodemus: O(N) is O(1) given that an real computer has finite memory anyway 10:22:39 ehu` [~ehuels@109.33.196.128] has joined #lisp 10:22:50 <_6502_> an=any 10:22:56 it's not defined like this 10:23:58 <_6502_> stassats: O(n) doesn't require n growing indefinitely? 10:23:59 <_3b> only if you implement it to iterate over the entire ram no matter how long the list is :p 10:24:13 mathrick [~mathrick@83.1.168.198] has joined #lisp 10:24:28 _6502_: O(N) means that time taken scales linearly with N 10:24:50 <_6502_> _3b: i'd do anything... i can get a constant-time operation... wouldn't this be wonderful? ;-) 10:25:11 so O(2N) is O(N) -- changing the slope doesn't make it non-linear 10:25:43 <_6502_> nikodemus: the problem is with the meaning of the world "scales" 10:25:51 not to sneer at constant factors, but unless you have a thing you can benchmark and measure, worrying about constant factors is useless 10:26:09 taking a length of a 100000000 element list takes 0.175 sec 10:26:39 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.34.99.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:26:50 it takes about 1.5G of memory 10:27:13 -!- madsenz1 [~madsenz@n11z181l194.static.ctm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:27:26 and if you can benchmark and measure--and you have a fair idea of the size of input--then you can mostly forget about big-Oh analysis and just start at the code and profiling results and think clever thoughts 10:27:44 s/start/stare/ 10:28:01 <_6502_> i was just wondering what's the best way... i felt bad calling (length x) and then passing x to someone that has to traverse it because I didn't consider that the implementation has to do that anyway 10:28:02 c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-gyavwuvlmewyfbop] has joined #lisp 10:28:27 madsenz [~madsenz@n11z181l194.static.ctm.net] has joined #lisp 10:28:34 -!- ehu` [~ehuels@109.33.196.128] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:28:37 <_6502_> the correct solution is to use a vector in the first place 10:28:47 <_6502_> ok thanks buys, back to coding 10:28:59 <_6502_> buys=guys 10:29:04 -!- _6502_ [~agriffini@88.149.154.87] has left #lisp 10:30:13 interestingly, on CCL, it takes 0.543 seconds to allocate 100000000 with MAKE-LIST, while on SBCL it uses 7 seconds 10:31:05 cnl [~cnl@78.31.74.25] has joined #lisp 10:31:06 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@96.237.121.111] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 10:32:57 Gmind [~Nevermind@113.190.173.150] has joined #lisp 10:33:23 ehu [~ehuels@109.33.196.128] has joined #lisp 10:33:29 -!- Gmind [~Nevermind@113.190.173.150] has quit [Client Quit] 10:35:02 stassats`: hard to believe. Do you mean that it takes 7 seconds to print the result? 10:35:36 *lichtblau* notes that CCL defaults *print-pretty* to NIL 10:36:26 -!- madsenz [~madsenz@n11z181l194.static.ctm.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:36:49 hargettp [~hargettp@96.237.121.111] has joined #lisp 10:37:03 -!- aoh [~aki@80.75.102.51] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:37:14 aoh [~aki@80.75.102.51] has joined #lisp 10:39:40 -!- e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-hgxjeemllpodydzf] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:39:40 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 10:39:48 damn disconnect 10:39:49 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:39:56 lichtblau: of course no 10:40:13 below 2^16 elements they both use the same algorithm, consequently calling CONS, but after that CCL uses some assembly code 10:40:20 see (disassemble #'ccl::%allocate-list) 10:44:12 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.33.196.128] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:44:25 simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 10:44:25 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Changing host] 10:44:25 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 10:44:58 st-9554 [~st-9554@a89-154-147-132.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 10:45:11 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 10:45:39 -!- st-9554 [~st-9554@a89-154-147-132.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 10:46:15 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-umsgacgqalbasqii] has left #lisp 10:46:41 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:48:24 -!- youguy [~youguy@11.Red-193-152-132.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 10:48:41 youguy [~youguy@11.Red-193-152-132.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:49:42 -!- lifeng [~lifeng@155.69.43.70] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:49:55 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@fsf/member/vu3rdd] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:50:05 silenius [~silenus@p4FC22282.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:51:05 concave [~concave@c-24-118-48-38.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:53:16 and i wonder why does it do so only after 2^16 10:53:45 Joreji [~thomas@85-183.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 10:54:00 e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-xfozmykvadarzguk] has joined #lisp 10:54:07 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-168-138.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:56:15 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:56:31 cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.78] has joined #lisp 10:56:38 -!- cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.78] has quit [Changing host] 10:56:38 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 10:58:45 ehu [~ehuels@109.33.196.128] has joined #lisp 10:59:02 st-9828 [~st-9828@a89-154-147-132.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 11:01:28 -!- st-9828 [~st-9828@a89-154-147-132.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 11:03:14 slyrus: you blog seems down 11:05:15 tauntaun [~mandelio@208.252.23.2] has joined #lisp 11:05:39 stassats`: can you paste? I tried it before making my suggestion, and SBCL takes 0 seconds for me ("1,040 processor cycles"). 11:06:02 -!- malbertife [~marcoalbe@gw-e-U-EdII.nat.fct.unl.pt] has quit [Quit: malbertife] 11:07:13 aha, which obviously is too low to include any initialization at all, so the compiler had optimized it away. Fooled by eval being implemented using COMPILE again. 11:08:55 ehu` [~ehuels@109.33.19.180] has joined #lisp 11:10:02 st-10005 [~st-10005@a89-154-147-132.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 11:10:26 that's quite a lot of memory being allocated there actually 11:11:21 1.5G on 64-bit system 11:11:45 killerboy [~mateusz@pc-212-51-221-162.p.lodz.pl] has joined #lisp 11:12:03 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.33.196.128] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:13:08 -!- st-10005 [~st-10005@a89-154-147-132.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 11:14:12 benny [~benny@i577A84FE.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 11:14:44 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 11:14:56 -!- The_Fellow [~spider1@glida.mooo.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:16:55 -!- leo2007 [~leo@114.249.26.81] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.3.50.1] 11:17:09 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:18:34 -!- youguy [~youguy@11.Red-193-152-132.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 11:21:49 st-10104 [~st-10104@a89-154-147-132.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 11:22:14 xxxyyy [~xyxu@180.172.53.36] has joined #lisp 11:22:16 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7565b1.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 11:24:32 -!- Joreji [~thomas@85-183.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:25:51 -!- concave [~concave@c-24-118-48-38.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [] 11:27:10 waaaaargh [~waaaaargh@agsb-d9bd9571.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 11:30:12 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:31:03 -!- michael_lf [~michael@117.32.153.145] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:33:31 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 11:36:03 -!- st-10104 [~st-10104@a89-154-147-132.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: Quiting...] 11:38:41 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:40:16 -!- ehu` [~ehuels@109.33.19.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:40:41 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 11:43:38 G'morning all. 11:44:36 hello nyef 11:44:36 good morning 11:45:08 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:45:19 nyef: I have some comments about your paste the other day. 11:45:42 [if you are up to it] 11:46:08 beach: Certainly. Did you read the annotation about winapi event handling? 11:46:28 No, I didn't see that one. 11:46:45 Got it now. 11:47:10 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@96.237.121.111] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 11:47:24 ehu [~ehuels@109.33.19.180] has joined #lisp 11:47:26 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:47:36 nyef: Let me start with annotation 1. 11:47:47 The_Fellow [~spider1@glida.mooo.com] has joined #lisp 11:47:50 Fair enough. 11:48:18 sykopomp [~sykopomp@crlspr-24.233.190.221.myacc.net] has joined #lisp 11:48:22 nyef: first paragraph: "this event queue tends to be shared by all of its panes (thus sheets) associated with the frame". That doesn't seem right to me. 11:48:29 cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.78] has joined #lisp 11:48:36 -!- cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.78] has quit [Changing host] 11:48:36 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 11:48:47 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@crlspr-24.233.190.221.myacc.net] has quit [Changing host] 11:48:47 sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 11:48:58 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:49:13 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:49:20 beach: That was interpretation 2 from the main post, restated. 11:49:30 First, gadgets are panes, so pointer events, exposure events and such don't use the common queue. (I think). 11:50:05 Oh, wait, you are talking before distribution? 11:50:18 cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.78] has joined #lisp 11:50:20 -!- cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.78] has quit [Changing host] 11:50:20 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 11:50:21 Possibly after distribution. 11:50:39 Gadgets are panes, too, and possibly use standard-sheet-input-mixin. 11:50:56 In fact, the example implementation for a gadget in the spec doesn't even -mention- a sheet-mixin. 11:51:09 But some events are not queued, but handled directly. 11:51:29 flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:20c:6eff:feb5:e2d0] has joined #lisp 11:51:29 -!- flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:20c:6eff:feb5:e2d0] has quit [Changing host] 11:51:29 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 11:51:41 Can be, yes. 11:52:06 But the example gadget implementation in the spec -doesn't-. 11:52:33 nyef: And there are sheets that aren't panes, so "panes (thus sheets)" seems misleading. 11:52:53 There are no panes that are not sheets, though. 11:53:03 True. 11:53:11 And you can't associate a sheet to a pane other than by sharing the event queue. 11:53:36 At least, not in any way that affects event handling. 11:53:47 Err... a sheet to a -frame-. 11:54:17 I can believe that. But your phrase sounds like "this event queue tends to be shared by all of the panes, thus by all of the sheets, associated with the frame" which is not correct. 11:55:09 I'm not sure that it isn't correct in this context. 11:55:41 Hmm. 11:55:43 Would it not being correct invalidate the rest of the analysis? 11:56:21 I don't know. I tend to get stuck on minor things like that. 11:56:27 Why does (AND) return t? 11:57:06 (other than its defined that way). 11:57:24 easyE: Because none of its parameters are false. 11:57:39 easyE: Likewise, (OR) returns NIL because none of its parameters are true. 11:58:10 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has joined #lisp 11:58:36 MoALTz_ [~no@92.18.28.33] has joined #lisp 11:59:08 This comes from Boolean algebra or popositional logic? I'm curioius to connect this with the mathematical basis. 12:00:03 nyef: Next remark. If the event queue is common for all panes in the frame, at which point does an event get associated with a particular pane, so that accept can only take pane-specific events into account? 12:00:42 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 12:01:27 rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 12:01:31 The event is associated to a pane during distribution, it is then distributed to the pane, the pane puts it into the shared queue, and when it is read from the queue the associated pane is still recorded as a slot on the event. 12:01:53 -!- tauntaun [~mandelio@208.252.23.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:02:12 -!- MoALTz [~no@92.18.28.33] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:02:40 But ACCEPT must then skip events that are not meant for the pane in its argument, right? 12:03:25 Sort-of. 12:03:41 A stream-pane has its own input buffer for gestures as well as the event queue. 12:04:24 OK, so ACCEPT reads gestures rather than events? 12:04:27 ACCEPT uses WITH-INPUT-EDITING uses READ-GESTURE checks the input buffer and then checks the event queue if the input buffer is empty. 12:04:44 Yeah, OK. 12:05:02 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:05:25 This is actually covered partway through annotation 1. 12:05:42 The bit about STREAM-INPUT-WAIT. 12:05:50 Yep, saw it. Thanks. 12:08:21 I guess you could argue AND from set theory: x is and member of A and B iff (x is a member of A) and (x is a member of B) is true if both A and B are the empty set. 12:08:26 easyE: AND returns true if and only if all its arguments are true. if there are no arguments, the two statements "All arguments are true" and "No arguments are true" are true 12:09:44 adhet: ok, I'll buy that line of reasoning. 12:10:45 easyE: OR returns true if and only if there exists an argument which is true. 12:12:00 Can we rephrase that to "OR returns true IIF there exists an argument to it which is true, AND returns false IIF there exists an argument to it which is false."? 12:12:29 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 12:13:27 nyef: (x)Tx :: ~(Ex)~Tx 12:14:32 adeht: Something like that. 12:14:43 nyef: What is a "message-handling thread"? 12:15:02 is "(x)T" to be read "for every x in statement T"? 12:15:05 nyef: i.e., how is "message" related to "event", "input", and "gesture"? 12:15:12 leo2007 [~leo@th041112.ip.tsinghua.edu.cn] has joined #lisp 12:16:07 beach: event-handling thread, sorry. 12:16:29 I keep getting mixed up due to winapi influence. 12:16:37 sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-75-105.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 12:16:39 OK. 12:16:44 easyE: the T is a predicate.. it reads for every argument x, x is true 12:17:24 The official term is something like "global input processing loop". 12:17:56 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-75-105.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has quit [Excess Flood] 12:18:05 and "::"? 12:18:12 easyE: logical equivalence 12:18:20 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.167.224.93] has joined #lisp 12:18:23 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.167.224.93] has quit [Changing host] 12:18:23 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@fsf/member/vu3rdd] has joined #lisp 12:18:27 "if and only if"? 12:18:33 sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-75-105.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 12:18:34 nyef: OK, thanks for clearing things up. I'll continue reading and thinking. 12:18:48 easyE: no, that would be material equivalence 12:19:15 So, "(x)Tx" means for every x, x is true, and it is equivalent to "~(Ex)~Tx" meaning there does not exist an x that is not true. 12:19:23 beach: So, my turn? 12:19:30 nyef: thanks. 12:19:54 nyef: Your turn? What do you mean? 12:20:00 beach: What are the main things that CLIM "brings to the party" as it were that other UI systems don't? 12:20:33 nyef: inversion of control, streams, presentation types. 12:20:46 My short-list is basically the adaptive toolkit, the abstract gadget formalism, and then text stream based interface and all that's built on top of it. 12:21:00 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:21:22 adaptive toolkit = stratified design? Yeah! 12:21:40 adaptive toolkit = MAKE-PANE and WITH-LOOK-AND-FEEL-REALIZATION. 12:22:01 Oh, that. Sure. 12:22:09 Plus the abstract gadget formalism to make a good part of it usable for portability. 12:22:49 nyef: The concept of a command loop. I think that makes client code more modular. 12:22:52 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:23:30 nyef: Commands are very declarative with the typed arguments that can be acquired independently of how the command was written. 12:23:42 The problem is, the specification breaks down as soon as you try to move away from applications with stream-based UI. 12:23:56 The further you try to get from the model, the worse it breaks. 12:24:20 That might be true. But that sounds fixable. 12:24:53 nyef: what exactly do you mean by "stream-based UI" in this context? 12:25:07 jdz: "Command: " 12:25:22 -!- The_Fellow [~spider1@glida.mooo.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:25:35 There is one simple thing we can do to make Lisp better. 12:25:40 Lately, I have been trying to imagine different "typical" applications to make sure they all fit into some layer of the spec. 12:26:00 Insert a mention of named-readtables into every reader-macro book, article and tutorial we can reach :) 12:26:06 well, i'm here kinda making my own clim-inspired web toolkit 12:26:38 so far CLIM seems very very MVC 12:26:46 The spec doesn't even have a mechanism for handling events in the context of an application-frame without using STREAM-INPUT-WAIT. 12:26:55 i mean, the MVC layers are quite isolated 12:27:36 nyef: So there is a layer or two missing. 12:27:42 Mmm. 12:28:07 What I'm thinking at this point is to take the stream stuff and graft it on top of some more typical UI substrate. 12:28:16 nyef: What do you need the application frame for if you don't use a "stream-based UI"? 12:28:48 It's a convenient hook for event handling, to start with. 12:29:17 Plus, there's the frame-manager, and all of the unspecified things that it deals with. 12:29:22 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has left #lisp 12:29:24 There's the layout protocol. 12:29:56 urandom__ [~user@p548A4B9C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:30:01 nyef: I actually think the application frame is doing too many things, and its different responsibilities should be divided up. 12:30:11 It possibly is. 12:31:00 What makes you think the layout protocol is associated with the application frame? (you might be right, but it doesn't ring a bell for me). 12:31:41 Part of my point, though, is that the specification is horrible pretty much anywhere other than gadgets, streams, and the whole port/graft/mirror/medium bit, and even that last has its horrors with the event-handling and much of the drawing protocols. 12:32:30 clim 29.3.4 12:32:30 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for 29.3.4. 12:32:43 says that layout is triggered by layout-frame. 12:32:44 tauntaun [~mandelio@ool-44c7e46c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 12:33:04 First 3/8 of a sentence in the section. 12:33:09 OK. But that's just an example of my previous remark then. 12:33:47 Quite possibly. 12:34:51 -!- silenius [~silenus@p4FC22282.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:34:57 nyef: I feel like I have a grip on output (sheets, designs, output records, repainting etc), but you clearly are much further along when it comes to input. 12:36:12 Mmm. I am also seriously considering ignoring most of the spec, and building my own thing based on the parts that I like and can find use for. 12:36:21 nyef: Should we try to put together a slightly more formal document in which we clean up and define all terminology and try to be as precise and detailed as possible, so that other people like me can understand it? 12:36:40 The_Fellow [~spider1@glida.mooo.com] has joined #lisp 12:38:08 nyef: I am not attached to the CLIM II spec in that if it turns out to be wrong or useless in some area, then I am willing to modify it. 12:38:37 Are you looking for a commentary on the CLIM II spec, or a new spec entirely? 12:38:54 nyef: Ultimately, I would like a new spec. 12:39:09 -!- SidH__ [~SidH_@203.101.61.10] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 3.6.16/20110319135224]] 12:39:35 That implies possible more immediate goals. 12:39:56 I am sure that's true. Which ones are you thinking of? 12:41:17 longfin [~longfin@211.187.37.46] has joined #lisp 12:41:23 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 12:41:24 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Excess Flood] 12:43:40 Implementations of various parts of a proposed spec to see how they work in practice, a commentary on what is good and bad about the existing spec, an explicit consideration of project scope. 12:43:51 Not sure what else might be useful. 12:43:59 Sounds right. 12:44:39 Even to get as far as I did in the event-handling analysis, I had to treat examples as normative and appeal to linguistics. 12:44:49 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 12:44:53 nyef: I am very close to a detailed spec and an implementation of a new output model in which sheets, designs, and output records have been merged, and many other simplification have been made. 12:45:15 Mmm... Right. I don't like general transformations, and I don't like designs. 12:45:53 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-172-43.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 12:46:04 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 12:46:07 At the same time, a design is -almost- like an output-record, which I do like. 12:46:07 I have nothing against general affine transformations, but they just don't work in the presence of "rectangular" output records. 12:46:20 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 12:47:09 And WTF is up with the whole use of transformations to alter child window placement? 12:47:44 It would have been fine if it had worked in the general case, but it doesn't. 12:48:18 Yeah, exactly. 12:48:36 Plus, it yields a two-step process for moving and resizing a sheet. 12:48:54 Right. 12:49:26 -!- myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:50:16 And the whole "regions are designs" thing... Ugh. Same again with ink... 12:50:40 Gmind [~Nevermind@113.190.173.150] has joined #lisp 12:51:58 So what I have simplifies all that, and specifies in detail when the repaint protocol is invoked and what it does. 12:52:38 But then I got stuck when I got to input, so I was glad to see that you are trying to sort it out. 12:54:00 Mmm. 12:54:32 My thought was that the minimum viable UI toolkit implementation is the event-handling. 12:54:44 slash_ [~unknown@pD955FC06.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:54:44 ltriant [~ltriant@124-168-112-32.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 12:54:51 Given that, I can use raw XLIB calls to do output and whatever else. 12:55:09 Then migrate to a more principled system over time. 12:55:39 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-172-43.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:55:39 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@124-168-112-32.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Client Quit] 12:57:06 gor[e] [U2FsdGVkX1@79.165.187.105] has joined #lisp 12:58:18 -!- gor[e] [U2FsdGVkX1@79.165.187.105] has quit [Client Quit] 12:58:41 Oh, something else that's wrong with the CLIM spec is that SILICA was the first part specified and implemented, and then it turned out not to be used the way they had thought it would be used... And it looks like they never went back and simplified it. 12:59:43 gor[e] [U2FsdGVkX1@79.165.187.105] has joined #lisp 12:59:59 -!- gor[e] [U2FsdGVkX1@79.165.187.105] has quit [Client Quit] 13:00:32 nyef: I think it would be very valuable to define a low-level layer that can be used by event-driven applications without the entire arsenal of command loops, application frames, etc. 13:01:07 I don't disagree. 13:01:44 gor[e] [U2FsdGVkX1@79.165.187.105] has joined #lisp 13:01:54 But in a very real way, that's the uninteresting bit: Virtually every UI toolkit has that. 13:01:55 TheRealLongshot_ [~longshot@180.184.8.3] has joined #lisp 13:02:24 *_3b* could use one of those, preferably one that doesn't conflict too badly with flash/js 13:02:38 nyef: Im I reading you correctly that you are mainly interested in a toolkit that works for you, and that you are willing to build and design it as you go along and feel the need for additional functionality? 13:02:51 Yes, absolutely. 13:03:22 I'm willing to work to a spec, implementing whichever parts I need as I go, so long as I like the spec. 13:03:59 nyef: How much work would you be willing to put into a spec that you like? 13:04:09 -!- TheRealLongshot [~longshot@207.204.232.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:04:09 -!- TheRealLongshot_ is now known as TheRealLongshot 13:04:15 That's the question, isn't it? 13:05:12 nyef: I wouldn't mind *writing* such a spec, but I don't know the details of what to put in. 13:06:17 -!- gor[e] [U2FsdGVkX1@79.165.187.105] has quit [Client Quit] 13:07:12 billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 13:08:18 youguy [~youguy@11.Red-193-152-132.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:09:34 pen [u854@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-phwobhflbdviqjhs] has joined #lisp 13:09:37 jo 13:09:38 hi 13:09:46 I have a question for forward chaining 13:09:59 Sounds like AI rather than Lisp. 13:10:05 Just put my current implementation bits-and-pieces (something like three separate phases of work, not all particularly coherent, and pre-dating this current investigation into input handling) at http://www.lisphacker.com/temp/nq-clim-2011-03-28.tgz 13:10:14 oh well, isn't lisp best for AI programmers? 13:10:16 lol 13:10:29 or give me the name then 13:10:39 pen: Lisp is best for pretty much everything. That doesn't mean they can all come here and ask :) 13:10:49 beach: :\ 13:11:06 Still, forward chaining? I bet google knows something about that. 13:11:31 just a small question, I don't know how to type this in google 13:12:23 like for forward chaining does it handle the case where KB contains non equal number of implication sentence and facts for the same predicate? 13:12:39 don't know if this make any sense to you guys 13:12:47 what is "it"+? 13:12:53 lifeng [~lifeng@bb116-14-191-157.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 13:13:00 it => forward chaining algorithm 13:13:29 nyef: I'll take a look at the code at some point. 13:13:59 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:14:31 for example I might have father($x, $y) => parent($x, $y) and then I have 3 facts something like father(peter, marie), father(peter, isabella), father(gumb, peter) 13:14:31 pen: I don't see how numbers are relevant. Combinations are generated and selected. 13:14:44 so forward chaining uses combinations? 13:14:58 Yes, it combines all the facts with all the applicable rules. 13:15:18 jweiss [~user@nat/redhat/x-njwjgsxmbkkkrmjs] has joined #lisp 13:15:19 well, how about unification? how does it generate the appropriate bindings? 13:15:28 From what you give, it chains forwardly to (parent peter marie) (parent peter isabela) and (parent gumb peter). 13:15:51 Unification will filter out facts. It's part of the selection phase. 13:15:54 for the example above? because this requires some knowledge that you have to keep track of the need to rename variable for each facts 13:16:26 Unification is done with pattern matching. 13:16:53 in the code provided from aima site, their unify doesn't handle that it seems 13:17:08 Ie. you compare the two structures, and when you have a variable on one side, and a value on the other, you unify them, creating a binding, or you check that the existing binding has the same value. 13:17:17 beach: Okay, I'll think about writing some more about the existing spec, possibly in a more formal style. 13:17:45 but 13:17:53 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-157-151.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:18:11 there are less number of variable than facts 13:18:27 like x might map to peter or gumb 13:18:29 nyef: Great! 13:18:38 and y can map to marie or isabella or peter 13:18:40 -!- youguy [~youguy@11.Red-193-152-132.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:19:11 since forward chaining assumes mapping from one clause to another fact I guess 13:19:18 pen: each couple of rule and fact are considered independently. That's why I'm talking of combinations. 13:19:33 oh 13:19:48 you mean, for each rule including all conjuncts are paired with a fact? 13:19:56 I mean a combination of rules 13:20:00 or conjuncts 13:20:08 paried with a combination of facts 13:20:09 hmm 13:20:23 Isn't this covered in either PAIP or AIMA, if not both, and numerous other textbooks as well? 13:20:31 aima doesn't have forward chaining 13:20:34 only backward chaining 13:21:08 textbook only describe with a very ambiguous pseudo code 13:21:31 didn't mention anything about combinations 13:21:52 Well, you presented a single rule above, so {r}x{f1,f2,f3} = {(r f1) (r f2) (r f3)} then unification is applied on each couple, ((=> (father $x $y) (parent $x $y)) (father peter marie)) --> (($x peter) ($y marie)) => (parent peter marie) 13:22:47 And of course if the antecedent of the rules is a conjunct, then you have to build combinations of facts too. 13:23:09 Of course, you can optimize it avoiding to enumerate combinations that cannot unify because the terms cannot match. 13:23:22 hmm, let me think about this 13:24:16 -!- tauntaun [~mandelio@ool-44c7e46c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 13:24:34 tauntaun [~mandelio@ool-44c7e46c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 13:24:39 pen: I don't remember, does AIMA speak of prolog? 13:24:40 i still don't quite understand what you mean there 13:24:49 PAIP does and present a prolog implementation. 13:24:53 oh, I don't know I am using lisp 13:25:32 PAIP too. 13:25:46 what is {r}? and {f1, f2, f3} 13:25:49 ? 13:25:59 oh 13:26:12 nvm, so r is rule and f1 f2 are facs 13:26:13 facts 13:27:15 Yes. 13:27:44 hmm, this is a little bit harder to grasp but I think I am getting it. however, you meant the combination of the facts which will applied to the rules right? 13:27:56 like maybe (r f1 f2) and (r f2 f3) etc 13:28:59 For each rule r = (=> (and a1 a2 ... an) c), you combine it with the tuples of n facts, and unify the antecedents ai with the facts fi. If there's a unification, then you substitute the variable values in the consequent c. 13:29:24 In the rule you gave above, n=1. 13:29:25 -!- tauntaun [~mandelio@ool-44c7e46c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:29:40 tauntaun [~mandelio@ool-44c7e46c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 13:30:54 Rukowen [~Rukowen@113.162.162.53] has joined #lisp 13:31:15 I see. so that's why it is called "pattern matching" 13:31:43 Harag [~Harag@wbs-196-2-111-210.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:31:44 -!- tauntaun [~mandelio@ool-44c7e46c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:32:04 but then 13:32:42 since you will add the bindings incrementally to the KB you need to have a rename of the variables for the r for each unification 13:32:45 hmm 13:33:15 the unification is done only within the couple (rule tuple-of-facts) 13:33:26 then it's redone for the other couples independently. 13:33:52 yes 13:34:36 If you have two parents, John and Paul, each having their own child Jane and Paulette, you must unify them independently: (($parent John) ($child Jane)) (($parent Paul) ($child Paulette)) 13:34:42 but how about the variable reuse? 13:34:50 What about it? 13:34:56 from lisp 13:35:00 it is only $x and $y 13:35:08 you need to rename those for each unification 13:35:17 or the bindings might conflict each other 13:35:19 right? 13:35:25 (let ((i 42)) (/ i 2)) (let ((i "Index")) (subseq i 0 3)) ; what conflict is there? 13:35:52 what is i? 13:35:53 -!- Onyxyte [~Onyxyte@r75-110-112-109.rmntcmtc02.rcmtnc.ab.dh.suddenlink.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:36:00 oh 13:36:01 A variable. I thought you said you used lisp. 13:36:08 well, i'm still learning 13:36:19 ok, aima does provide a method to rename variable 13:36:22 so that's not a problem 13:36:33 PAIP is a companion book to AIMA teaching Lisp to implement AI algorithms. 13:36:38 minion: tell pen about PAIP 13:36:39 pen: look at PAIP: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming: Case Studies in Common Lisp by Peter Norvig. http://www.cliki.net/PAIP 13:36:39 oh 13:37:00 well, don't have this book around 13:37:06 I recommend it! 13:37:17 sure I will get it asap 13:37:20 Them, both AIMA and Paip. 13:37:23 thanks for the suggestions 13:37:35 you mean AIMA the code right? 13:37:38 I already downloaded 13:37:39 it 13:37:56 Both books. 13:38:19 Is there AIMA code? There's PAIP code, but I don't remember if there's code in AIMA. I thought it was codeless. 13:38:27 oh wait. you mean Artificial Intelligence a modern approach? 13:38:31 yea, I have that 13:38:31 Yes. 13:38:35 definitely 13:38:41 ok, now I will get paip 13:39:06 pjb: yes, peter wrote all the code for the aima book and hosted online on his website 13:39:13 or aima.berkely.edu something like that 13:39:52 anyway, back to unification 13:40:02 (($parent John) ($child Jane)) (($parent Paul) ($child Paulette)) 13:40:09 in your example, you reuse variables 13:40:21 and that would probably won't work with the query 13:40:31 since I can map $parent to John but also Paul 13:40:39 Nice, AIMA code. 13:40:42 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 13:40:46 I wouldn't map into two different query but only one 13:40:50 I mean solution 13:40:55 yea AIMA did have code online 13:41:19 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@112.224.3.13] has joined #lisp 13:41:22 You may (bind $parent to John) XOR (bind $parent to Paul). 13:41:26 You cannot do both at the same time. 13:41:51 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:42:05 I mean I can't return this back to the asker though 13:42:09 in aima code 13:42:45 You may return a set of set of bindings. 13:42:50 i'm practicing implementing forward chaining in for aima under dir logic/algorithm 13:42:53 ( (($parent John) ($child Jane)) (($parent Paul) ($child Paulette)) ) 13:42:59 hmm 13:43:11 ok, let me try 13:44:33 because I"m worried about variable reuse 13:44:40 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 13:44:40 serichsen [~user@switch1.elmi.uni-bonn.de] has joined #lisp 13:44:47 Hello! 13:44:49 because I suspect that's what kept holding me back from passing the test in aima 13:45:25 pen: Well, we don't use lisp variables here. Also, the notion of binding is very different from the usual programming language notion of "variable" and "variable assignment", or "value stored in a variable". 13:45:37 pen: a binding is just a couple (name object) 13:46:10 -!- Rukowen [~Rukowen@113.162.162.53] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:46:14 So we may consider several bindings, with the same name: ($parent John) and ($parent Paul), and put them in lists: (($parent John) ($parent Paul)) 13:46:36 tcr [~tcr@92.58.136.182] has joined #lisp 13:46:37 as long as we don't mean that those bindings are valid at the same time. 13:46:57 So you can return a list of list of bindings, to mean that you have several solutions. 13:48:01 malbertife [~marcoalbe@193.136.122.17] has joined #lisp 13:48:04 -!- emporas_ [~emporas@athedsl-173648.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:48:40 pjb: oh. hmm 13:53:21 ok, I will try both ways 13:53:41 woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 13:53:58 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-010-015.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:55:42 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-jugaknfmecwznuuk] has joined #lisp 13:59:01 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-75-105.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:01:53 azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has joined #lisp 14:02:05 btw, in lisp if I have a list a how do I encapsulate into another list ? like (a)?? 14:02:08 sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:02:11 but it doesn't seem to work 14:02:39 (list a)? 14:03:05 ohh 14:03:35 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 14:06:59 -!- tcr [~tcr@92.58.136.182] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:07:22 thanks 14:08:22 serichsen pasted "copy-array*" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/120951 14:09:09 -!- blackwol` is now known as blackwolf 14:09:21 muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 14:09:58 I think that :displaced-index-offset should allow nil when :displaced-to is nil. Is that right? 14:10:36 stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 14:13:07 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.33.19.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:13:19 xinming_ [~hyy@115.221.13.166] has joined #lisp 14:13:34 artifact [~pyrrhic@c-24-60-190-97.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:13:58 weird 14:14:06 serichsen: displaced-index-offset: "This option must not be supplied unless a non-nil displaced-to is supplied." 14:14:22 aima unify can't take a list of bindings to another vairable 14:14:28 Not "must not be set to anything other than NIL", "must not be supplied". 14:15:17 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@pc-212-51-221-162.p.lodz.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:15:34 serichsen: (apply #'make-array ... (when keep-displacement-p `(:displaced-index-offset ,displaced-index-offset))) or two code-paths, maybe? 14:16:03 ehu [~ehuels@109.33.19.180] has joined #lisp 14:16:12 -!- xinming [~hyy@115.221.14.131] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:16:37 Is paredit the norm for emacs users? I haven't seen an advantage yet. When I want to jump to a particular spot, say, deep within a function, getting there via paredit-forward / paredit-forward-down is less efficient. 14:16:45 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has joined #lisp 14:17:05 Maybe there's something I'm missing. 14:17:17 nyef: two code-paths are ugly. Your first proposal seems right, thanks. 14:17:19 artifact: Navigation is not the only thing that paredit provides. 14:17:38 serichsen: It's not "right", as the compiler can't optimize it quite so well. 14:17:42 udzinari [~user@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 14:18:10 nyef: so what? I'm asking about navigation. 14:18:25 mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:18:27 hargettp_ [~hargettp_@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has joined #lisp 14:19:13 it also provides killing / slurping / barfing /etc. Not exactly navigation, but that's beside the point. 14:19:59 artifact: You say that "you haven't seen an advantage yet", and quote a navigation example. What I said was that there's more than just navigation to paredit. If the other features are also not advantageous to you, that's one thing, but you only -mentioned- navigation as a specific example. 14:20:28 what's wrong with C-M-left/right/bottom/up ? 14:20:44 uh s/bottom/down 14:20:44 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:20:47 artifact: you still have the normal emacs navigation, in addition to the navigation paredit provides. I use both. 14:21:02 I usually don't use the paredit navigation, but some of the other features are nice. 14:21:11 cfy [~cfy@122.228.135.218] has joined #lisp 14:21:16 My question is how people use paredit. Do one really navigate with paredit-forward / paredit-forward-down, or does one use more direct means? 14:21:20 -!- cfy [~cfy@122.228.135.218] has quit [Changing host] 14:21:20 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 14:21:31 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@58.63.64.230] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:21:40 Who the fuck cares about whatever uses it has. I'm asking about the navigation part. 14:21:58 artifact: please watch your language. 14:22:07 offs 14:22:19 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A4B9C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:24:54 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.33.19.180] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:24:55 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp2364.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 14:24:57 http://mumble.net/~campbell/emacs/paredit.html 14:25:03 paredit looks nice actually 14:26:49 silenius [~silenus@p4FC22282.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:28:36 -!- mnau [~xc344@116.253.155.129] has quit [] 14:29:58 That link has been my main reference. It seems alright thus far except that the navigation seems to be for small-scale rather than large-scale use. Which may be as intended, I don't know. 14:30:52 carlocci [~nes@93.37.197.96] has joined #lisp 14:31:15 thanks fe[nl]ix 14:31:16 -!- sacho [~sacho@90.154.220.91] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 14:31:24 tcr [~tcr@92.58.136.182] has joined #lisp 14:31:24 ehu [~ehuels@109.35.55.10] has joined #lisp 14:31:27 sacho [~sacho@90.154.220.91] has joined #lisp 14:31:37 iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-150-188.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 14:32:29 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp2364.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:33:53 What's the appropriate term for a programmer who uses a library/environment which has a specification, from the perspective of the specification author? 14:34:10 More specifically, a user-interface library. 14:34:39 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:35:16 client? 14:35:47 or user 14:35:49 Mmm... Doesn't seem to have the right connotation. 14:36:16 application programmer 14:36:17 nyef: CLIM II section 2.1 has an example. 14:36:46 Ah! Yes, thank you beach. 14:37:18 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 14:37:30 Clearly, I'm going to have to re-read the entire first part of the spec again. 14:38:03 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.35.55.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:38:17 -!- echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:38:26 ehu [~ehuels@109.35.55.10] has joined #lisp 14:39:22 Actually, section 2.1 covers precisely what I'm currently thinking about. Wonderful. 14:39:45 -!- tcr [~tcr@92.58.136.182] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:40:10 ... and I didn't point slyrus to the nq-clim snapshot I posted a link to earlier, did I? 14:41:53 -!- TheRealLongshot [~longshot@180.184.8.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:41:58 No I don't think you did. 14:42:00 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.35.55.10] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:43:49 TDT [~user@74.115.254.25] has joined #lisp 14:46:49 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:46:58 tcr [~tcr@92.58.136.182] has joined #lisp 14:47:01 tsuru [~charlie@adsl-87-47-213.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 14:47:15 hey all. I asked this last night, but will try again today. Has anyone used cxml to traverse a REST-based response? I have some code, here, https://gist.github.com/889837 Essentially I'm pulling from the developer api for bus route information. When I start traversing through the children nodes, I'm at a loss about how to deal with them. The documentation isn't very helpful in terms what to do with RUNE-DOM:TEXT elements. It does 14:47:15 give the stop list, just the objects of it, and I'm unsure how to actually get the name. 14:47:39 any lispworks user? Is there way to execute code at startup in lwper? 14:47:55 -!- lifeng [~lifeng@bb116-14-191-157.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 14:48:44 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-196-2-111-210.wbs.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:49:29 Fare: the personal edition ignores ~/.lispworks? 14:50:24 TDT: I think you want dom:data for the text of text-nodes 14:50:48 sykopomp, looks like it does 14:50:59 they might be weary of cheaters like me 14:51:08 ehu [~ehuels@109.35.55.10] has joined #lisp 14:51:21 the docs mentions config/.lisp files, but it's unclear relative to what directory 14:52:04 Fare: strace, see which directories it looks for? 14:52:51 tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has joined #lisp 14:53:05 -!- mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:53:10 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-ckrpuwwkdbguybve] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:53:19 bobbysmith007: Thanks, you gave me a bit of a boost in the right direction. I have both TEXT elements, and route objects. Thoguht they were all TEXT ones. 14:53:36 ... Oh! The CLIM spec isn't an implementation spec, it's a -customization guide- for an existing implementation. 14:53:49 TDT: http://paste.lisp.org/display/120954 I just added this paste that is an iterate driver for cxml dom, might give you a booste 14:55:57 TDT: fyi: you have dom:elements with the tag name "route" and dom:text nodes 14:56:00 bobbysmith007: Fantastic, I'll be sure to read through that. Found a harder time trying to find a good code example, this will help. Thanks. 14:56:05 nyef: bingo 14:56:19 Fare: what's the final answer? 14:56:36 Doesn't help that the user guides are primarily reiterations of the supposed spec, either. 14:57:40 somewhere in the docs I see (sys:lispworks-file "config/siteinit.lisp") 14:57:49 dkasak [~dkasak@dh207-103-204.xnet.hr] has joined #lisp 15:01:24 gary-s [~gary@186.42.102.50] has joined #lisp 15:01:38 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:02:25 not loaded in lwper either 15:02:31 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 15:03:29 serichsen annotated #120951 "copy-array* fixed" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/120951#1 15:03:53 urandom__ [~user@p548A4B9C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:03:54 (thought I'd share) 15:04:52 By the way, should this perhaps replace alexandria:copy-array, or is there some drawback in comparison? 15:05:30 Alexandria:copy-array has the disadvantage that its result is never a simple-array. 15:06:50 strace reveals no attempt to do anything interesting in /home or /usr/local -- no cigar 15:07:15 well, no automated testing on lispworks, then 15:07:44 Fare: Redirect stdin or /dev/tty ? 15:08:05 nyef: more like emulate X events... not 15:08:19 Ah, right. Let's not go there. 15:09:15 <|3b|> serichsen: might want to handle keep-displacement-p being set when the array isn't displaced 15:11:06 milanj [~milanj_@178-223-172-123.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 15:11:18 <|3b|> serichsen: also, maybe array-total-size instead of multiplying array-dimensions 15:11:42 |3b|: ah, yes. 15:11:45 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:12:01 rme [~rme@pool-70-105-118-12.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:13:22 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@180.172.53.36] has left #lisp 15:15:46 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:16:00 myu2 [~myu2@v051158.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 15:17:36 mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:19:01 lifeng [~lifeng@bb116-14-191-157.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 15:19:08 -!- reb [~user@nat/google/x-rduxxptirdcudnvf] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:20:45 relcomp [~chatzilla@nat.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has joined #lisp 15:20:55 pnq [~nick@ACA2367D.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 15:21:09 serichsen annotated #120951 "copy-array* improvement" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/120951#2 15:22:57 -!- paul0`` [~user@200.146.60.228.dynamic.dialup.gvt.net.br] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:24:04 jmckitrick [~user@adsl-152-73-60.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 15:24:07 I ran into the following issue, but the solutions given there do not solve the problem. Has paredit changed since? http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4288339/how-do-you-comment-out-all-or-part-of-a-lisp-s-exp-using-paredit 15:24:21 How do I comment out a multiline sexp? 15:24:27 besides #+nil 15:24:52 #| ... |# ? 15:25:05 #+(or) 15:27:02 well there is still the issue of wanting to place a few semicolons. behavior seems to have changed since that stackoverflow post. 15:27:03 stassats`: Hey, are you planning to work on slime-cover some more? Maybe integrate the backend into sbcl now? 15:27:12 -!- sacho [~sacho@90.154.220.91] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:27:47 yes-yes, maybe the this week-end 15:28:37 so much stuff, i'll turn off #lisp as a distraction 15:28:40 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has left #lisp 15:29:06 sacho [~sacho@87-126-43-104.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 15:29:51 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:30:22 Mococa [~Mococa@186.214.240.145] has joined #lisp 15:30:53 brown [~user@nat/google/x-lrnqpwjsbxveldej] has joined #lisp 15:30:56 -!- brown is now known as reb 15:31:22 -!- jmckitrick [~user@adsl-152-73-60.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:33:06 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 15:33:20 bohanlon [~bohanlon@TUBERIUM.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #lisp 15:38:11 -!- gary-s [~gary@186.42.102.50] has quit [Quit: gary-s] 15:39:34 udzinari` [~user@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 15:41:03 -!- udzinari [~user@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:42:33 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.35.55.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:45:09 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-51-60.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 15:45:49 ehu [~ehuels@109.35.55.10] has joined #lisp 15:46:09 Bronsa [~brace@host217-174-dynamic.10-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 15:47:28 -!- udzinari` [~user@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:49:22 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 15:51:37 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has left #lisp 15:52:31 mcspiff [~user@DC1AE.WPA.Dal.Ca] has joined #lisp 15:52:37 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:55:37 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:56:01 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-jugaknfmecwznuuk] has left #lisp 15:56:14 can i do print with variables? like in c? 15:56:30 pen: "do print"? 15:56:41 how do I (print "%s" "hi")?? 15:57:03 is it possible? 15:57:07 mcspiff pasted "Closure DOM oddities" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/120961 15:57:09 (format t "~S" "hi")... Or ~A instead of ~S. Or there's a PRINT function... 15:57:44 Anyone familiar with cxml-dom want to take a look at that paste and tell me why im crazy... 15:57:52 -!- schell [~schellsci@c-76-103-111-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: schell] 15:57:55 yeah, there's a bazillion ways to output stuff in CL 15:59:53 -!- longfin [~longfin@211.187.37.46] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:59:54 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@186.214.240.145] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:00:36 mcspiff: I think the "title" tag might need a namespace there 16:00:51 mcspiff: but I have no idea if that is the real source of your problem 16:01:04 -!- leo2007 [~leo@th041112.ip.tsinghua.edu.cn] has quit [Quit: sleep] 16:01:09 lichtblau might be able to tell for sure, thoug 16:01:45 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:01:55 -!- malbertife [~marcoalbe@193.136.122.17] has quit [Quit: malbertife] 16:02:33 kamikaza [~kamikaza@79.126.175.87] has joined #lisp 16:02:34 antifuchs: thats an easy one to test, and would kind of make sense, maybe... back to the lab! 16:04:15 antifuchs: nailed it, thank you 16:04:21 awesome 16:04:51 I'm not too happy that in order to generate html, you have to specify a namespace, but it does make sense in the general-xml handling scheme of things 16:05:52 albino [~albino@69.12.222.214] has joined #lisp 16:06:17 Heh. "Difficult mathematical type exercise: Find a list e such that /value/ e = e." Umm... #1=(QUOTE #1#). Done. 16:06:44 antifuchs: agreed 16:07:36 mcspiff: if you're doing serious things with it, I guess you should make a create-html-element function and use that exclusively (: 16:07:38 but from what i've poked around the code base, it makes sense and may be more correct internally 16:07:42 () would be simpler. 16:07:55 -!- e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-xfozmykvadarzguk] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:08:23 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:08:42 antifuchs: exactly what I've done. I'm actually half considering a port of cl-who that generates a proper dom as opposed to edi's write-string calls 16:08:45 koning_robot [~user@s5597d50c.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #lisp 16:08:52 mmmh 16:08:55 that would be nice (: 16:09:13 pmd [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:ddfc] has joined #lisp 16:09:20 is cl-who BSD? 16:09:33 could check myself I suppose 16:09:39 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 16:09:50 -!- pmd [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:ddfc] has left #lisp 16:10:51 youguy [~youguy@157.pool85-56-97.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 16:11:28 seems to be. Could lift some code from that, combine with the closure-dom stuff, shouldn't be too too bad right? ;-) 16:13:07 I suppose there's some confusion going on there with the namespace being NIL. (as opposed to "") 16:13:10 -!- hargettp_ [~hargettp_@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:13:17 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.35.55.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:13:44 *lichtblau* notes that the same serialization done with STP instead of DOM works just fine, even without giving title the XHTML namespace 16:14:31 hmmm perhaps i should look into STP. Was just familiar with dom from client side stuff and ran with it 16:14:43 -!- billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:15:03 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA2367D.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:15:45 -!- kamikaza [~kamikaza@79.126.175.87] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:16:26 -!- albino [~albino@69.12.222.214] has quit [Quit: real men don't quit, they flee] 16:16:40 albino [~albino@69.12.222.214] has joined #lisp 16:17:06 lichtblau: since you're here... something else i just noticed, with chtml:make-string-sink, the :include-doctype :full-internal-subset arguement to dom:map-document doesn't add the doctype to the output like it does with cxml:make-string-sink. 16:17:11 any ideas? 16:17:40 kamikaza [~kamikaza@79.126.175.87] has joined #lisp 16:17:59 daniel__ [~daniel@p5082AE0A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:20:27 hmm, does it accept those keywords? (and if so, why? :-)) 16:20:54 HG` [~HG@dslb-188-109-170-222.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:21:00 -!- daniel_ [~daniel@p5B32691D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:21:16 I think a doctype is written if a system id is specified in the hax event. 16:22:43 pmd [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:ddfc] has joined #lisp 16:22:50 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-119-202.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:22:55 lichtblau: it does..hmmm... 16:23:58 lichtblau: ideally im aiming to have the html5 doctype, which is simply 16:25:42 fake it with (hax:unescaped sink "") between sink creation and serialization 16:26:07 mcspiff: what are you working on? 16:26:38 lichtblau: easy enough fix, thanks. 16:26:56 Fade: yet another web framework 16:27:21 doesn't everyone need their own? ;-) 16:27:41 i'd be very interested in an html5 framework. 16:28:34 I'll throw something on github when I get something half usuable 16:28:35 -!- youguy [~youguy@157.pool85-56-97.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:28:44 M-. in slime no longer accepts dspecs other than symbols, since this change: http://bit.ly/dWJiDp 16:29:15 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-39-6-229.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:29:39 I have a couple ideas I haven't come across yet in other frameworks that I think a framework based on the DOM could do. Might be too slow for anything usuable, but hey people use ruby on rails right? 16:30:35 fast is a positive feature. :) 16:31:23 AFAICT, that change was made only to accommodate this complaint: http://bit.ly/fZLIxl 16:32:40 lichtblau: that works, thanks 16:33:54 -!- Gmind [~Nevermind@113.190.173.150] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:34:37 schell [~schellsci@70-36-199-232.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 16:34:42 mcspiff: rails' slowness has several causes, many of which a lisp-based framework shouldn't suffer from (I hope) (: 16:35:53 antifuchs: I'm thinking so as well. I'm not planning anything comprehensive as rails yet, just html generation + a few other html5 goodies so there's no reason it can't be fast. 16:37:39 I have a defclass that might as well be a defstruct. It would be nice if defclass had a "no-clos" flag which created raw defstruct behind the scenes. Of course use of polymorphism and so forth would be an error. 16:37:46 Maybe someone has already done that. 16:37:58 -!- _dev0_ [~dev@c-24-16-28-215.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:38:11 artifact: why not make it a defstruct? 16:38:19 defstruct with defclass syntax. 16:38:28 ah gotcha 16:38:33 just because I'm lazy and lisp should do the work for me. 16:38:49 (with-no-bugs ...) 16:38:50 then let me ask the inverse: why do you want a defstruct? (: 16:39:22 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.215.77] has quit [Quit: Offline] 16:39:25 because this thing has no polymorphic behavior. it's more like raw data. 16:39:33 -!- reb [~user@nat/google/x-lrnqpwjsbxveldej] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:39:55 holy crap, just realized artifact and antifuchs are two different people. Thought someone was losing their mind... 16:40:02 ahaha 16:40:14 artifact: defstructs are a performance thing. they support polymorphism also (: 16:40:56 that is to say, I am not aware of any built-in or library way that lets you define defstructs using defclass syntax 16:41:00 is there a performance benefit to using structs over clos obects? 16:41:05 but I'm also not sure your use case warrants the effort (: 16:41:21 Fade: sometimes? accessors can be inlined more easily, AIUI 16:41:29 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 16:41:40 ah 16:41:45 there should be one syntax and two options for implementation: clos and no-clos. 16:41:54 imo 16:42:42 artifact: if you care about that, you can define an object protocol to describe the behaviour. 16:42:56 crack AMOP 16:43:11 I don't think I agree... the main difference between structures and classes is that you can safely redefine classes. 16:43:30 Fade: but that uses CLOS (heads will explode) (: 16:43:37 :) 16:44:06 ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has joined #lisp 16:44:49 -!- McMAGIC-- [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:44:52 well there would be no downside of an optional shared syntax between the two, for converting existing code. 16:46:28 -!- Bronsa is now known as Bronsa[nigga] 16:46:57 are we about to recieve an invite to the chimpout forum? 16:47:19 hyperboreean [~none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has joined #lisp 16:49:16 -!- mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.255.252] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:50:30 given the myriad of defstruct options, I'm surprised there's no option for the slot-accessor name. 16:51:22 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.80.199] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:51:36 spilman [~spilman@ARennes-552-1-109-10.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:51:38 artifact: Presumably, the :conc-name was deemed sufficient. If you want a different accessor-name, use a different slot name. 16:52:04 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.68.242] has joined #lisp 16:53:16 ... or write a new structure macro 16:54:18 mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.255.252] has joined #lisp 16:54:36 nyef: aha, conc-name does exactly what I need. A conc-name of "" gives me pseudo-methods for the struct. 16:54:46 thanks 16:55:38 artifact: "If :conc-name is nil or no argument is supplied, then no prefix is used." 16:55:56 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-64-222-180-202.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has left #lisp 16:56:00 nyef [~nyef@pool-64-222-180-202.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 16:56:15 Oops. Closed the current window in the wrong application. :-/ 16:56:22 ok, that's cleaner 16:56:51 -!- lifeng [~lifeng@bb116-14-191-157.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:57:41 lifeng [~lifeng@bb116-14-235-180.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 16:58:41 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-gyavwuvlmewyfbop] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:59:30 malbertife [~marcoalbe@bl4-143-67.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 17:00:42 -!- waaaaargh [~waaaaargh@agsb-d9bd9571.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: WTF? leaving!] 17:01:51 McMAGIC-- [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--] has joined #lisp 17:04:20 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:04:49 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has quit [Quit: tronador_] 17:05:03 is there a haskell to lisp translator using type erasure? 17:05:10 christop` [~user@oteiza.siccegge.de] has joined #lisp 17:05:49 -!- Bronsa[nigga] is now known as Bronsa 17:06:02 hm is there some library to parse yaml files in common lisp? 17:06:03 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-179-241.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:08:08 emporas [~emporas@athedsl-173648.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 17:08:30 christop`: may I ask why you want to parse yaml? 17:08:45 Do you already have yaml files? Or is this a format you want to use for some other thing? 17:10:11 I have yaml files from $source and I need to get their content 17:10:18 waaaaargh [~waaaaargh@agsb-d9bd9571.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:10:22 jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-25.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:12:48 christop`: I personally am not aware of any YAML parsers. In Lisp, people usually use S-expressions to format their data and whatever, since it's immediately readable. 17:13:07 ramtop [~guest@85.175.6.48] has joined #lisp 17:13:53 I have a parser for the Racket Scribe syntax 17:14:10 (and a Bigloo Scribe/Skribe syntax, too) 17:14:12 if that helps 17:15:24 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@fsf/member/vu3rdd] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:15:36 Fare: Time for cmucl to take asdf 2.014? 17:15:53 rtoym: yes, please 17:16:05 No problem. 17:16:14 thank you 17:16:19 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 17:16:20 hm don't know these 17:16:21 clisp seems to ship asdf < 2.x :/ 17:16:34 killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has joined #lisp 17:16:35 Fare: Another question. What is asdf::subdirectories supposed to do? Just return a list of all subdirectories? 17:16:49 only unresponsive maintainers: lispworks, gcl, corman 17:16:55 maybe I'll do the glue layer a bit differently and keep the yaml intern to the ruby part 17:17:08 yes, if possible not resolved wrt truenames 17:17:40 Fare: GCL has a maintainer? 17:17:41 i.e. we're recursing by hand because **/*.asd isn't portable, and won't exclude large irrelevant trees 17:17:46 Fare: Does asdf work with gcl? Never tried that. 17:17:49 sellout, dunno. It used to. 17:18:08 rtoym, it used not to, but now mostly does 17:18:10 elb0w [~gtsafas@38.112.182.36] has joined #lisp 17:18:17 There is still a gcl maintainer. I think he's busy with other stuff. 17:18:29 but gcl has no active maintainer, and somewhat broken conditions 17:18:31 There any good conceptual books on Lisp someone can recommend? 17:18:41 conceptual? 17:18:49 systemaddict [~anonymous@208.74.177.139.static.etheric.net] has joined #lisp 17:19:06 Fare: Ok. I think it might be related to a the test failure on cmucl for test-configuration. asdf can't find foo1.asd because the list of directories doesn't include dir3 (or whatever). 17:19:07 I have never used Lisp, I want to learn about the language more than how to use it 17:19:18 how it runs etc 17:19:19 elb0w: gentle introduces the concepts of lisp gently. 17:19:25 minion: tell elb0w about gentle 17:19:25 elb0w: please look at gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 17:19:37 ok ty 17:19:54 elb0w: if you mean, how lisp is implemented, then LiSP is for you. 17:20:01 rtoym, I don't have a 32-bit system on which to run cmucl anymore 17:20:02 minion: tell elb0w about LiSP 17:20:03 elb0w: please see LiSP: "Lisp in Small Pieces". This book covers Lisp, Scheme and other related dialects, their interpretation, semantics and compilation. To sum it up in a few figures: 500 pages, 11 chapters, 11 interpreters and 2 compilers. 17:20:06 rtoym, could unearth one. 17:20:11 patches welcome 17:20:18 pjb, yeah thats awesome ty 17:20:41 Fare: I'll look into it, now that I know what subdirectories is supposed to do. Shouldn't be too hard. 17:20:42 Fare: Not even a 32-bit chroot? 17:21:01 nyef: should be findable 17:21:04 have to unearth it 17:21:12 *nyef* keeps a 32-bit chroot around for SBCL/x86/linux. 17:21:15 *rtoym* runs 64-bit opensuse with the 32-bit libraries added. 17:22:01 man why do they never have these ported to kindle :( 17:22:03 I have an object of type simple-error. how do I call error with this error? 17:22:09 why would anyone _not_ install the 32-bit libraries is beyond me. 17:22:09 -!- tcr [~tcr@92.58.136.182] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:22:26 artifact: By passing it as a parameter? 17:22:35 clhs error 17:22:35 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_error.htm 17:23:13 elb0w: Some university teachers are not paid much, they have to make a living with books. 17:23:27 mattrepl [~mattrepl@204.14.152.118] has joined #lisp 17:24:17 I did look at the clhs page before, but it's unclear where it says that I can pass in an error object. Is that a "designator"? 17:24:25 pjb, yeah but they could expand their market if they had conversion for ereaders 17:24:38 Hello Lispers! 17:25:02 its rare I buy something nowadays I cant get on kindle, just takes up too much space 17:25:12 every error example I've seen gives a string (error "foo") 17:25:23 What do the FS-SEGMENT-PREFIX annotations in SBCL's disassembly mean? 17:25:29 elb0w: you could send an email to the author, see if he would be interested in electronic publication. 17:25:34 clhs 91.2.1 17:25:35 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for 91.2.1. 17:25:37 clhs 9.1.2.1 17:25:37 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/09_aba.htm 17:25:43 artifact: Try that page. 17:26:04 pjb, yeah I think amazon does that when you click the button 17:26:20 (Yet another suboptimal reference choice in the spec.) 17:26:44 -!- Fare [~Fare@64.119.159.126] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:26:52 nyef: but is simple-error of type condition? 17:27:31 ... Yes. You might want to read all of chapter 9, at this rate. 17:28:04 jtza8 [~jtza8@41.56.12.65] has joined #lisp 17:28:23 pnq [~nick@AC812216.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 17:28:25 EarlGray [~dmytrish@inherent.puzzler.volia.net] has joined #lisp 17:28:27 rtoym pasted "asdf test error with cmucl" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/120963 17:28:28 artifact: check out http://paste.lisp.org/+2JQD/1 17:28:44 artifact: this is a decent introductory tutorial on the lisp condition system: http://vimeo.com/21221157 17:29:19 Fare: That's the error I'm getting. I think subdirectories is wrong in returning dir3/foo1.asd and dir4/foo2.asd. Should be just dir3/ and dir4/, right? 17:29:19 -!- malbertife [~marcoalbe@bl4-143-67.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:29:35 malbertife [~marcoalbe@bl4-143-67.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 17:29:46 aha, this was the diagram I was looking for: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node346.html#CONDITIONHIERARCHYTABLE 17:30:06 -!- Guest89506 [~Adium@he190123.dsl.fsr.net] has left #lisp 17:30:24 I know about conditions, but somehow I thought "error" was at the top, not "condition" 17:31:51 a condition is more general than an error. 17:31:52 :) 17:32:42 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 17:34:25 artifact: Also, if your using emacs/slime: (slime-describe-symbol "error") may present some nice details w/r/t the C-P-L 17:35:17 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has joined #lisp 17:38:51 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-181-199.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 17:42:11 -!- relcomp [~chatzilla@nat.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has left #lisp 17:44:56 -!- ramus [~ramus@adsl-108-76-78-229.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:45:15 ramus [~ramus@adsl-99-115-64-248.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:52:02 schme [~marcus@c83-254-205-76.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 17:52:02 -!- schme [~marcus@c83-254-205-76.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Changing host] 17:52:02 schme [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 17:52:54 Fare: Patch sent to asdf-devel to fix this issue. 17:53:05 -!- mcspiff [~user@DC1AE.WPA.Dal.Ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:53:41 killerbo1 [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has joined #lisp 17:53:41 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has quit [Disconnected by services] 17:55:18 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 17:56:05 -!- killerbo1 is now known as killerboy 17:57:13 Fare [~Fare@63.115.78.49] has joined #lisp 17:58:59 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:59:02 -!- malbertife [~marcoalbe@bl4-143-67.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 17:59:06 killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has joined #lisp 17:59:17 malbertife [~marcoalbe@81.193.143.67] has joined #lisp 18:01:10 -!- ramtop [~guest@85.175.6.48] has quit [] 18:05:52 -!- artifact [~pyrrhic@c-24-60-190-97.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:08:48 lanthan [~ze@p54B7F66D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:10:59 codelurker [~codelurke@66.71.230.192] has joined #lisp 18:12:52 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-32-125-145.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:13:21 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:16:16 -!- kamikaza [~kamikaza@79.126.175.87] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:16:47 kamikaza [~kamikaza@79.126.175.87] has joined #lisp 18:18:16 Evious [~n_a@s64-180-62-209.bc.hsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 18:18:21 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:19:35 adobriyan [~ad@vulture2-nat-42.telecom.by] has joined #lisp 18:20:43 -!- schell [~schellsci@70-36-199-232.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: schell] 18:25:50 -!- pnq [~nick@AC812216.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:28:37 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:29:11 I'm gettring ready to build SBCL 1.47.x, curious what enabling sb-show-assem in customize-target-features.lisp will do 18:29:20 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:29:59 -!- peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:31:59 why 1.47.x ? my sbcl shows a version number of 1.0.47 18:32:34 homie: Just a forgotten .0, that's all. 18:32:43 homie: b/c i added an extra .0 :) 18:33:12 er dropped 18:33:40 mon_key: Looks like it's specific to SYS:SRC;COMPILER;ASSEM.LISP. 18:34:06 nyef: yes. but i couldn't really gather what it does 18:34:07 -!- Areil [~Areil@123.21.161.210] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:35:31 Looks like it's for debugging the instruction scheduler? 18:36:11 :) was wondering if it had some impact on *show-entry-point-details* or some such 18:36:21 Don't think so, no. 18:36:48 So, just dumps some more info to *trace-output* 18:37:18 Hello! Could you tell me if I could write this function better?  18:37:20 mrSpec pasted "push-in-place" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/120964 18:37:37 Onyxyte [~Onyxyte@r75-110-112-109.rmntcmtc02.rcmtnc.ab.dh.suddenlink.net] has joined #lisp 18:38:16 billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:38:32 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:39:44 *|3b|* would drop the (length word) from second subseq call, or maybe allocate a string and copy the pieces into that rather than concatenating subseqs 18:39:47 peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has joined #lisp 18:41:00 with-output-to-string? 18:41:02 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.220] has joined #lisp 18:41:42 -!- codelurker [~codelurke@66.71.230.192] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 18:42:19 <|3b|> that would be one way to copy the pieces (i'd probably still allocate it by hand though, to avoid extra copies) 18:43:08 -!- Evious [~n_a@s64-180-62-209.bc.hsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:44:15 <|3b|> actually, w-o-t-s doesn't seem to have any benefit over concatenate that i can think of 18:44:17 Evious [~n_a@s64-180-62-209.bc.hsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 18:44:36 Probably not for this case, no. 18:45:03 codelurker [~codelurke@66.71.230.192] has joined #lisp 18:45:15 -!- hyperboreean [~none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has left #lisp 18:45:23 I'm trying upgrade this function to make it faster. So I'll try allocate string and copty pices into it :) 18:46:31 <|3b|> should produce less garbage if nothing else (unless concatenate is smarter than i'd expect it to be) 18:46:45 -!- em is now known as emma 18:47:46 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""]