09:29:43 ccl-logbot [~ccl-logbo@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 09:29:43 09:29:43 -!- names: ccl-logbot badipod acieroid peterhil Krystof Yuuhi zophy xan_ slash_ daniel varjag Kenjin hugod123 Khisanth PuffTheMagic Ogedei hanDerPeder legumbre_ hlavaty attila_lendvai bobbysmith007 gravicappa bozhidar kushal Lis beach Guthur levente_meszaros pavelludiq slyrus_ stassats cmm jdz cmsimon trebor_dki jmbr akamaus Deesl hanneso kephas mcsontos mvilleneuve TeMPOraL MetalDust simplechat Kolyan johs jan247 mrSpec Beetny mudge SandGorgon ace4016 benny abend 09:29:43 -!- names: Adamant oconnor Ginei_Morioka dto zc00gii Modius _danb_ xyxxyyy1 ikki Tordek rahul neoesque _8david gz clog mbohun nuba Adlai``` krl araujo rpg e-future Jasko Taggnostr qbomb bgs000 sixpoint8 topo lucca ramus fe[nl]ix REPLeffect laynor Patzy cisticola fatblued` salva dmiles_afk egn mornfall specbot minion lisppaste Fare phadthai jajcloz antoszka metasyntax` billitch bzzbzz djm metasyntax sanjoyd jmcphers cataska blandest Xof stepnem kleppari boyscared 09:29:43 -!- names: younder luis pjb c|mell Hraban rlpowell cthuluh drewc s0ber lnostdal chiiph AntiSpamMeta potatishandlarn cpage_ arbscht DrForr steven_t zard1989 Amadiro Xantoz ASau` Buganini abeaumont spacebat nullman nipra Euthydemus christoph_debian atomx Anarch PissedNumlock lharc kuwabara az stettberger demopig mtd nixeagle seg_ BrianRice Odin- rootzlevel cinch eno slyrus ASau adeht scode mathrick m4thrick billstclair Axioplase djinni` OliverUv lemoinem yacin 09:29:43 -!- names: madnificent amontez derrida kvsari JuanDaugherty TDT lusory seejay Fade marienz Salamander rsynnott Tabmow pchrist cpt_nemo Yamazaki-kun ineiros codemonkeyx johanbev bougyman galdor MrWGW Madsy Obfuscate p_l cmeow p8m rtoym svitalnes TraumaPony leviathan lonstein levene__ koollman revolve deepfire prip clop herbieB Zhivago gonzojive ski Pepe_ sykopomp _3b` rdd xavieran Tasunteld Draggor setheus fda314925 ianmcorvidae zfx tessier_ erk__ Adrinael joast joga 09:29:43 -!- names: hc_e erg fmu jpanest qebab mal__ worldhlord hohum cods yahooooo z0d foom krappie Tristam pp206 xristos fualo cYmen jsnell kloeri [mzm] pkhuong_ felipe dcrawford bfein tomaw Bucciarati Eno_ Holcxjo Intensity nasloc__ rapacity Dodek housel froydnj tic_ qsun Aisling turbo24prg franki- andreer aoh l_a_m sid3k pr mqt sdkmvx antifuchs Dazhbog dym_ emma joshe vsync tltstc frodef Deltafire easyE zbigniew _3b tychoish golgotha amaron rotty tvaalen pok 09:29:45 -!- bgs000 [cheshire@gateway/shell/57o9.org/x-mvocagowihqkbozd] has quit [Quit: Free shells at 57o9.org] 09:29:52 ost [~user@217.198.9.4] has joined #lisp 09:30:49 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:32:15 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-095-223.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 09:32:21 Tanami [~markovic@150.101.97.171] has joined #lisp 09:32:27 jrockway [~jrockway@stonepath.jrock.us] has joined #lisp 09:32:42 Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:32:59 schmrkc [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 09:33:00 xinming [~hyy@122.238.74.13] has joined #lisp 09:33:05 albino [~albino@69.12.222.214] has joined #lisp 09:33:24 [df] [~df@163.8.187.81.in-addr.arpa] has joined #lisp 09:37:32 hi, I'm having problems compiling this code http://pastebin.ch/5900 . I can compile the forms by hand, with C-c C-c on slime but compile-file fails. any clue what's wrong? 09:37:55 galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@69.86.153.232] has joined #lisp 09:38:12 you are using a function before it is defined 09:38:15 inside a macro 09:39:08 to get the function at compile-time, wrap its definition inside (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) ...) 09:39:44 -!- dto [~user@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:41:44 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0AF24.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:42:13 slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0BACF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:43:24 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-27-82-248-27-252.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:44:23 oconnore [~eric@thingy.cs.umass.edu] has joined #lisp 09:46:54 lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 09:50:54 -!- nipra [~nipra@121.243.225.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:52:04 Edward [ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-80-119.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:53:42 relcomp [~chatzilla@pc92-e03-3.igf.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE] has joined #lisp 09:55:33 Spewns [~jake@97-92-222-240.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 09:56:48 ost` [~user@217.198.9.4] has joined #lisp 09:56:48 -!- ost [~user@217.198.9.4] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:56:53 -!- e-future [~e-future@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:57:10 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0BACF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:58:03 -!- xyxxyyy1 [~xyxu@58.41.12.72] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:58:07 e-future [~e-future@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #lisp 10:03:50 anyone knows anything about asdf-system-connections and asdf2? it seems to not honour the output translations... no idea why, but wants to write into ~/.cache when it shouldn't 10:03:55 *attila_lendvai* pokes Fare 10:06:06 a-s-c is an abomination 10:06:08 eliminate it 10:06:57 -!- Spewns [~jake@97-92-222-240.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:10:02 -!- jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:10:45 jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #lisp 10:13:37 hargettp [~anonymous@96.237.133.50] has joined #lisp 10:13:48 -!- Anarch [~olaf@c-67-171-37-107.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: WILL TROLL FOR FOOD] 10:14:13 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 10:15:56 -!- billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:16:10 ephcon [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:16:29 good morning 10:16:44 morning 10:16:48 agreed, kill asc with fire. 10:18:31 hi antifuchs :) 10:18:35 hi fe[nl]ix (: 10:19:52 is there an alternative for asc? is does have a use 10:21:42 yes, just add fixed deps 10:23:24 as in, separate packages that handle the integration of systems? makes sense 10:26:10 ehu [~ehuels@194.48.133.8] has joined #lisp 10:26:13 -!- ehu [~ehuels@194.48.133.8] has left #lisp 10:29:49 toni [~toni@87-194-44-133.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:30:05 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@96.237.133.50] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 10:32:07 fixed deps mostly work, although not always 10:32:16 the problem is that it's not out code, it's cl-graph and co 10:32:22 s/out/our/ 10:32:50 hello antifuchs 10:32:54 hi beach (: 10:32:57 antifuchs: Where are you these days? 10:32:59 I hear you're working on clim3 10:33:14 antifuchs: Yeah, I was going to talk to you about that. 10:33:17 hargettp [~anonymous@96.237.133.50] has joined #lisp 10:33:22 attila_lendvai: then fork it 10:33:23 antifuchs: if you are interested that is. 10:33:25 I'm in vienna for now, coming to Berlin on aug 9, learning about agraph (: 10:33:30 definitely! 10:33:33 attila_lendvai: or send gary a patch 10:33:53 although having 20 .asd file in our util lib is kinda... but it's at least deterministic. 10:34:24 fe[nl]ix: gwking is pretty much lost in the ether... something must have changed in his life, new job or kid... 10:34:28 Elench [~Elench@unaffiliated/elench] has joined #lisp 10:35:18 attila_lendvai: job (: 10:35:31 antifuchs: I am not ready to show any code quite yet, but I'll let you know as soon as I am. I am not counting on anybody else to be involved, but if you insist, I'll consider it. :) 10:36:11 antifuchs: And I'll definitely accept input and questions. 10:36:27 beach: awesome. since I'm now pretty much officially responsible for a clim, I'm very interested (: 10:36:48 antifuchs: Yes, I heard that! 10:37:01 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-63-160.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:37:09 wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-63-160.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:39:52 well, I'd love to see what you have, whenever you're ready 10:41:15 antifuchs: Sure. Essentially, I merged sheets, output records, and designs, and made output recording mandatory. I have an algorithm (not implemented yet) for optimally updating a display based on differences in the tree of such objects. 10:41:47 antifuchs: Large parts of the spec will go awa this way. No need to have both table layout and a table pane for instance. 10:42:16 antifuchs: I think I'll do away with mediums and perhaps text styles as well. 10:42:38 spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.166.144.168] has joined #lisp 10:42:40 antifuchs: I would like to modernize the command-table stuff so as to make internationalization easier. 10:43:13 awesome! 10:43:43 antifuchs: I'll keep stream panes (I already have an implementation of those) because they are so handy when it comes to displaying text. 10:43:53 how about backends being able to override display styles? e.g. the tab layout (with presentation/command translation on widgets) in gtkairo? 10:44:33 makes sense. output stream panes are a really useful feature 10:45:06 antifuchs: I haven't gotten that far yet. I do what we did for McCLIM, i.e., implement the totally-portable backend first, i.e., one that uses only a CLX framebuffer (client-side image object). 10:45:17 okay (: 10:47:07 I am hoping reality won't hit as hard in September as previous years, so that I can actually continue the work during the academic year. 10:47:46 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.166.144.168] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:48:18 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-btfxrbyqzeffhmpt] has joined #lisp 10:49:28 nipra [~nipra@121.243.225.226] has joined #lisp 10:51:59 -!- Edward [ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-80-119.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:53:26 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@84.76.48.250] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:58:44 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 10:59:52 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:01:19 -!- Nshag [user@lns-bzn-27-82-248-27-252.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:02:06 mgr [~mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 11:09:47 beach` [~user@ABordeaux-253-1-81-80.w81-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:11:03 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-36-82-251-35-173.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 11:11:40 Edward [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-5-128.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:11:56 -!- beach [~user@ABordeaux-253-1-159-36.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:12:38 abeaumont [~abeaumont@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 11:13:16 -!- badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPod touch - http://colloquy.mobi] 11:21:33 fiveop [~fiveop@dfn84.rz.tu-ilmenau.de] has joined #lisp 11:21:55 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.74.49] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:27:05 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:27:57 revel0 [~revel0@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 11:29:12 MagBo [~Sweater@195.114.56.71] has joined #lisp 11:33:17 -!- xan_ [~xan@65.141.165.83.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:35:46 pmd [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:daa8] has joined #lisp 11:37:01 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@96.237.133.50] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 11:38:40 -!- Edward [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-5-128.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 11:39:15 hargettp [~anonymous@96.237.133.50] has joined #lisp 11:39:47 slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0BACF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:41:44 spytheman66 [~delian@95.111.111.212] has joined #lisp 11:42:07 -!- beach` [~user@ABordeaux-253-1-81-80.w81-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:43:13 beach``` [~user@ABordeaux-253-1-155-141.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:43:34 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@84.76.48.250] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:45:08 ost`` [~user@217.198.9.4] has joined #lisp 11:45:08 -!- ost` [~user@217.198.9.4] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:49:21 jtza8 [~jtza8@dsl-242-22-74.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:50:22 -!- christoph_debian [christoph@cl-1281.dus-01.de.sixxs.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:56:14 HET2 [~diman@109.144.25.143] has joined #lisp 11:56:31 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 11:56:33 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:56:39 -!- blandest [~user@85.204.33.242] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:57:29 I'm wondering, is there a simple function I can use to put a value into the front of a vector and have the last value fall off automatically? 11:57:56 jtza8: no 11:58:02 jtza8: you can use replace to move the items. 11:58:06 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:58:19 Ah, well, thanks. 11:58:34 fsvo simple, that is 11:59:33 Why not use a queue? 11:59:34 jtza8: but really, being a (n) operation, you should probably use another datastructure, if you have to do that more than once. 12:02:54 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:05:50 -!- zard1989 [~user@Joe.m4.ntu.edu.tw] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 12:06:08 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@26.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 12:06:34 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 12:08:35 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-26-202.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:09:01 -!- kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-53-9.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:12:09 jmbr [~jmbr@26.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 12:14:04 Joreji [~thomas@68-228.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:14:36 -!- cmsimon [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:14:38 tcr [~tcr@115.134.196.80] has joined #lisp 12:15:08 -!- revel0 [~revel0@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:15:26 revel0_ [~revel0@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 12:15:52 -!- revel0_ is now known as revel0 12:18:24 -!- Aisling [ash@blk-222-192-36.eastlink.ca] has quit [Quit: Changing server] 12:22:10 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:23:16 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 12:23:46 xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 12:25:47 pjb: There are only three elements in this particular vector. :) 12:26:33 dto [~user@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:27:52 jtza8: you can use shiftf in that case, probably 12:29:31 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:30:27 *rtoym* wonders what happened to CLUE (CL User-interface Environment) and CLIO (CL Interactive Objects) 12:31:06 went the way of dod? 12:31:08 *dodo? 12:32:36 smokecfh [~user@5ED1C224.cable.ziggo.nl] has joined #lisp 12:33:13 -!- xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:33:31 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:34:05 -!- Elench [~Elench@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:34:52 But why? Something inherently bad? Lack of exposure/mindshare? 12:35:25 -!- beach``` is now known as beach 12:35:48 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 12:36:08 thanks jdz 12:36:15 -!- Dazhbog [sampo@geek.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:36:49 Aferlak12 [~Aferlak12@64.120.233.114] has joined #lisp 12:37:03 Dazhbog [~sampo@geek.fi] has joined #lisp 12:37:15 -!- nasloc__ [tim@163.16.211.21] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:37:24 timchen1` [tim@163.16.211.21] has joined #lisp 12:41:00 -!- tcr [~tcr@115.134.196.80] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:41:31 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:41:44 rtoym: probably lack of contributions 12:42:20 commercial implementations had CLIM2 + proprietary toolkits, then AI Winter comes etc. 12:43:46 also, whatever I'd say about Kenny Tilton and his flaming attitude, one of his war stories concerning cells history mentioned that when faced with writing a GUI, he ended up using FFI to basic drawing routines and writing a one-off toolkit 12:43:54 Lisp sometimes is *too* powerful 12:50:42 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:50:55 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 12:52:44 I suspect that's a strawman. lisp isn't too powerful, just GUIs that are too complex and too foreign territory for programmers. 12:53:07 antifuchs: that's another thing... otoh, I still remember how easy it was to code using Borland's VCL 12:53:07 what 12:53:30 GUIs are not "too complex", and if it is foreign territory, that depends entirely on the programmer 12:53:50 ya know they have interface design master programs and such nowadays for comp-sci 12:53:51 oh, sure, you can easily create a GUI. it's just very hard to create one that can be understood and used by somebody who doesn't think like you do 12:54:01 yeah 12:54:07 as I said that depends on the programmer 12:54:20 being able to program does not make you unable to interface design 12:54:26 they are not mutually exclusive 12:54:34 OliverUv: I know that, thanks. it just doesn't seem like many people who graduate from these programs start working on their own GUI toolkit 12:54:39 it's just that people didn't know they were different skillsets in the past 12:55:03 OliverUv: yeah, and for more than two fucking chapters the textbook is about how important the subject is 12:55:12 antifuchs: I'd give them a few years more, takes some work experience to know what you want in a toolkit, too! 12:55:16 *p_l* has an exam on interface design next week 12:55:50 Human interface design really doesn't fit nicely into computer science 12:56:12 It's probably more product design 12:56:13 Guthur: non-neurology related psychology topics neither. I have both 12:56:19 OliverUv: that's a great development, and my point should have been it's too new to have had any large influence on GUI toolkits in the past. 12:56:38 antifuchs: i agree with that 12:56:51 Guthur: otoh, the UI/UX and design of the CS side interact quite heavily 12:56:54 so yeah, vast landscape that most programmers (me included) don't understand 12:56:59 p_l: It allows them to avoid putting too much programming and architecture stuff in CS 12:57:13 if they do that ~50% of the students will fail 12:57:26 Guthur: for example, Unix pipes and CLI also go into HCI 12:57:42 (in fact, there was some good psychological advantage of CLI, iirc) 12:57:53 Unix and HCI? example of what not to do? 12:57:57 (and look at me being in charge of a GUI toolkit!) 12:57:59 one that didn't benefit uneducated users, though 12:58:17 Guthur: actually no. You know that Unix partially got so popular because it was easy to use? :p 12:58:41 Microsoft won early OS wars on PC by adding Unix features to DOS, creating DOS 2.0 12:58:44 XIT seems to be missing. 12:58:50 Well if you start at 0 everything is better 12:58:52 p_l: heh, that's pretty ironic 12:58:57 shows us we've gotten pretty far now eh? 12:59:09 OliverUv: Microsoft sold Unix for quite a long time 12:59:25 (that said I still prefer cli ssh over any kind of remote-view stuff) 12:59:29 user interface software development depends on the outside world. for instance, wide acceptance of web browsers has changed things dramatically. before that, there was the acceptance of keyboards, mice and monitors as standard devices. 12:59:30 Unix has some ridiculously obfuscated naming though 12:59:35 anyway - if you make a thin layer of bindings to a tookit that's had input from people who do understand the landscape, and who know about accessibility and so on, of course that's preferable to starting from scratch with no understanding of what you're doing 12:59:37 and now they're creating their own powershell or whatever :/ 12:59:43 it's just not lisp's fault (: 12:59:43 and FreeBSD-related experience is behind major changes in Windows Server 12:59:55 and some commands have far too much overloaded functionality 13:00:02 Guthur: if you were working on ASR-33 you'd thank god for that terse naming 13:00:20 Guthur: that's GNU/BSD fault, though I recall GNU was worse in that manner 13:00:31 but now we have ergonomic keyboards and what not, not really relevant 13:00:40 Guthur: if you want to see what was the evolution of ideas used in Unix, look at Plan9/PlanB 13:02:34 -!- deepfire [~deepfire@80.92.100.69] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:07:15 -!- revel0 [~revel0@212.88.117.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:08:17 revel0 [~revel0@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 13:11:10 christoph_debian [christoph@cl-1281.dus-01.de.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 13:11:26 -!- ost`` [~user@217.198.9.4] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:14:41 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 13:15:07 Edward [ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-53-143.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:15:39 -!- HET2 [~diman@109.144.25.143] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 13:16:12 -!- MagBo [~Sweater@195.114.56.71] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:18:02 jbd [~user@fw1-aus1.rackspace.net] has joined #lisp 13:18:09 xan_ [~xan@183.139.165.83.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 13:26:53 TDT` [~user@dhcp80ff86f4.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 13:27:54 rrice [~rrice@adsl-76-253-140-91.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:30:40 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-63-160.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:30:43 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@dfn84.rz.tu-ilmenau.de] has quit [Quit: humhum] 13:30:54 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-63-160.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:32:46 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:35:31 MagBo [~Sweater@195.114.56.71] has joined #lisp 13:38:01 -!- xinming [~hyy@122.238.74.13] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:38:18 udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-gxdhjxvcbivgnywr] has joined #lisp 13:38:22 xinming [~hyy@122.238.74.168] has joined #lisp 13:38:43 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:40:23 revel0__ [~revel0@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 13:41:50 -!- TDT` [~user@dhcp80ff86f4.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:42:09 TDT` [~user@dhcp80ff86f4.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 13:42:25 -!- revel0 [~revel0@212.88.117.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:42:34 -!- Lis [~Lis@business-092-079-130-087.static.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 13:42:40 -!- [mzm] [~ziggy@92.98.165.122] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:44:40 How would I get a subset of bits from an unsigned number? 13:44:53 <_3b> clhs ldb 13:44:53 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_ldb.htm 13:44:54 ldb 13:45:23 thanks :) 13:46:44 [mzm] [~ziggy@92.98.14.230] has joined #lisp 13:47:10 revel0___ [~revel0@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 13:47:28 -!- revel0___ is now known as revel0 13:48:06 -!- TDT` [~user@dhcp80ff86f4.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:48:13 tsuru [~user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:48:32 -!- TDT [~user@173-30-32-53.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:48:51 -!- udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-gxdhjxvcbivgnywr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:49:26 udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-bvrjggpedtfuhjso] has joined #lisp 13:49:57 TDT [~user@173-30-32-53.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 13:50:09 -!- revel0__ [~revel0@212.88.117.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:52:38 -!- udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-bvrjggpedtfuhjso] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:53:53 -!- mudge [~nick@adsl-75-42-75-203.dsl.scrm01.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:54:14 -!- jajcloz [~jaj@pool-108-7-68-199.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: jajcloz] 13:55:12 -!- [mzm] [~ziggy@92.98.14.230] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:55:20 udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-wwfdqcqtcebbecni] has joined #lisp 13:55:33 <_3b> p_l: sacla is just a (partial) CL-in-CL, like sicl. it doesn't target any particular platform 13:57:17 -!- Guthur [~michael@host86-148-29-214.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:57:54 sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-49.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:59:12 something seems to be wrong with logbot :/ 13:59:40 syamajala [~syamajala@68-187-223-155.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 14:00:09 it doesn't compute logarithms? 14:01:00 -!- TeMPOraL [~user@erlang.pnet.com.pl] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:01:24 udzinari: What logbot? 14:01:35 wow. Our mutexes really suck on darwin. I have two threads that (dotimes (i (* 1024 1024)) (let ((x *global*)) (loop repeat 1024) (when (oddp i) (setf *global* (1+ x))))), with either a mutex around the LET, or my mini optimistic STM. Mutexes take 9 seconds real time at 160% CPU, STM 1.5 secs at 87% CPU, and a spinlock that reverts to STM instead of blocking 2 sec at 130% CPU. 14:02:06 stassats: :D it does not have sexp logs anymore? :( 14:02:21 9s at 160%! good utilisation! (: 14:02:26 that's a lot of looping per watt (: 14:02:36 beach: ccl-logbot I guess 14:02:45 antifuchs: with system *mutexes*. 14:02:51 -!- hugod123 is now known as hugod 14:02:54 Guthur [~michael@host86-148-29-214.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 14:02:58 Part of the blame goes to OS X here (: 14:03:33 udzinari: Use Tunes. 14:04:18 Vecklock [~Vecklock@adsl-163-37-28.hsv.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 14:05:42 antifuchs: and, as nikodemus discovered last year, pure spinlocks are on par with mutexes... 14:06:07 fiveop [~fiveop@erft-d932edc7.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 14:06:47 pkhuong_: I'm sure it does. I'm not questioning the wisdom of moving to a system-wide work queue service like grand central dispatch (: 14:08:23 (actually, pure spinlocks are around 2 sec as well) 14:09:21 -!- Guthur [~michael@host86-148-29-214.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:10:22 beach: thanks, forgot new stuff is logged there too. But no sexps there either.. anyway csv is simple, I will just rewrite my stuff 14:10:47 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0BACF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:11:22 ost` [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 14:12:30 rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has joined #lisp 14:13:53 -!- ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:13:57 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-23-78.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:14:38 hello 14:14:41 -!- ost` is now known as ost 14:14:46 hello ost 14:16:40 is there a function that works like UNIX join command? 14:17:29 ost: you'll have to write one yourself. 14:18:17 I did 14:18:44 Guthur [~michael@host86-148-29-214.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 14:21:03 -!- Guthur [~michael@host86-148-29-214.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:22:22 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-dcpqplucxjmurmuv] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:27:25 -!- rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:28:24 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:28:38 ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 14:28:53 rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has joined #lisp 14:29:22 -!- rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has quit [Client Quit] 14:29:56 ost: you mean, like zip ? 14:30:18 Guthur [~michael@host86-148-29-214.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 14:30:29 zip? 14:31:21 that's the traditional name for a function that joins n lists into one 14:31:27 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 14:31:33 http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-1/srfi-1.html 14:33:04 Fare: zip as in (apply 'mapcar 'list lists), right? I interpret "UNIX join command" as join(1), a DB-style join. 14:33:06 ecraven [~user@140.78.42.213] has joined #lisp 14:33:20 no, zip is not what I need. 14:34:31 oh, join by key. 14:35:02 ost: you're working on lists, right? 14:35:37 more like a relational db join, ok. 14:35:41 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-23-78.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:35:53 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-23-78.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:35:57 Fare: I wrote the function, I just asked to know if I missed a standard function that does the same thing 14:36:21 not that I know of. 14:37:28 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-095-223.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:38:21 -!- Vecklock [~Vecklock@adsl-163-37-28.hsv.bellsouth.net] has left #lisp 14:39:57 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.163.38.6] has joined #lisp 14:42:07 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@26.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:44:28 lexa_ [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 14:44:56 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest63433 14:47:06 -!- Guthur [~michael@host86-148-29-214.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:49:50 Guthur [~michael@host86-148-29-214.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 14:50:19 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:53:02 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-63-160.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:53:04 wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-63-160.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:53:57 bgs100 [~ian@h66.32.186.173.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #lisp 14:54:10 -!- bgs100 [~ian@h66.32.186.173.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has quit [Changing host] 14:54:10 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 14:55:57 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 14:57:55 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:59:29 ehu [~ehuels@194.48.133.8] has joined #lisp 14:59:34 -!- ehu [~ehuels@194.48.133.8] has left #lisp 15:00:08 deepfire [~deepfire@80.92.100.69] has joined #lisp 15:00:14 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.163.38.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:18:13 ccl-logbot [~ccl-logbo@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 21:18:13 21:18:13 -!- names: ccl-logbot mrSpec galdor tessier bobbysmith007 mal__ LiamH jsoft Salamander_ kpreid_ TomJ pizzledizzle Amadiro_ _danb_ hadronzoo petercoulton ace4016 legumbre_ pchrist beach DocOnDev eugu_ rvirding Mesh HET3 ignas abugosh quodlibetor mstevens drewc ry509 gravicappa delYsid dialtone danlei tcr Toekutr zophy Nshag astalla urandom__ SegFaultAX lichtblau varjag mbohun lnostdal-android mega1 bgs100 PuffTheMagic mathrick m4thrick_ retroj peterhil claint 21:18:13 -!- names: carlocci hohoho zomgbie hargettp pdelgallego antifuchs Taggnostr pavelludiq e-future jmcphers Xach serichsen G0SUB daniel_ timor Beetny rdd stis Ralith HET2 kleppari Fox MetalDust Yuuhi` mrfredconcklin Tril CrazyEddy salva madnificent hugod slyrus_ s0ber Tordek mjonsson_ tankrim dstatyvka tsuru abeaumont konr` araujo Euthydemus Demosthenes billitch nuba gzip4 skv Adamant Krystof parser Jasko ianmcorvidae specbot lisppaste sonnym ramus Buganini lolsuper_ 21:18:13 -!- names: Guest34549 Quadrescence Lycurgus sid3k marienz billstclair Aferlak12 tychoish christoph_debian lnostdal skyw00lker_ muddyferret trebor_home phadthai Modius stepnem sanjoyd rootzlevel PissedNu1lock johanbev Onyxyte turbo24prg aoh AntiSpamMeta erk__ gonzojive Madsy nullman qsun jrockway p_l zfx erg_ Borbus kooll pok tvaalen amaron golgotha _3b zbigniew Deltafire vsync joshe emma froydnj housel rapacity Holcxjo Bucciarati dcrawford felipe pkhuong_ fda314925 21:18:13 -!- names: Obfuscate bougyman codemonkeyx ineiros Fade seejay mtd spacebat steven_t arbscht chiiph Patzy lucca clog johs Khisanth albino deepfire reb djinni` krl slyrus cthuluh OliverUv ASau` c|mell Odin- quasisane boyscared Tabmow tomaw dostoyevsky fmu brickhazel schmrkc [df] rahul symbole dym Tasunteld acieroid yacin Adrinael fe[nl]ix nowhere_man bzzbzz scode eno Tristam xavieran_ jgrant Aisling setheus clop Ginei_Morioka mornfall potatishandlarn rotty ASau easyE 21:18:13 -!- names: _3b`` l_a_m_ metasyntax joast derrida egn_ pr_ z0d Axioplase_ pjb ``Erik vinnana franki^ fualo Pepe_ djm dmiles_afk gz` rtoym @Zhivago devon zeroish lusory Xof ecraven nasloc__ Dazhbog hanneso Xantoz amontez rsynnott cpt_nemo Yamazaki-kun leviathan lonstein levene__ herbieB Draggor kloeri jsnell cYmen xristos pp206 krappie foom yahooooo cods hohum worldhlord jpanest hc_e joga 21:19:24 -!- billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:20:40 -!- kpreid_ [~kpreid@32.173.176.128] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:20:41 derrida: I don't think there are any tools available that do any real refactoring. What are you trying to do exactly? 21:21:12 madnificent: i'm cleaning up a project ive been working on and i wanted to rename a bunch of slot-names :( 21:22:04 I doubt it, but if it's available somewhere, I'm interested. 21:22:53 billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 21:23:17 madnificent: if i find anything, i'll let you know. otherwise, i might mess around a bit with cedet. 21:25:54 I think I used cedet for java in emacs 21:26:50 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@h19n4c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:27:34 lemoinem [~swoog@126-74-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 21:27:52 rvirding [~chatzilla@h19n4c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 21:30:47 kpreid_ [~kpreid@166.190.35.150] has joined #lisp 21:33:18 sykopomp [~user@c-66-41-249-30.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:34:55 sykopomp: mostly anything benefits from arm-twisting freedom... 21:35:22 madnificent: not always. I think in this case, it might. 21:35:23 sykopomp: the combination of tigers and monkeys in a cage is an exception 21:37:57 benny [~user@i577A1FC5.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 21:39:15 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:42:37 -!- abugosh [~Adium@pool-74-103-38-231.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:44:10 badipod [~badipod@d110-32-131-107.sun800.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:44:10 -!- badipod [~badipod@d110-32-131-107.sun800.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Changing host] 21:44:11 badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 21:44:22 derrida: see M-x slime-query-replace-system 21:46:42 symbole_ [~symbole@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 21:47:59 hadronzoo_ [~hadronzoo@adsl-71-158-175-227.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:48:06 sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-49.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:48:42 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:48:42 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@adsl-75-17-124-50.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:48:42 -!- hadronzoo_ is now known as hadronzoo 21:49:32 kwbeam [~gandalf@ip98-168-252-218.om.om.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:52:47 -!- quodlibetor [~user@ool-18baa8f1.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:53:28 -!- kwbeam [~gandalf@ip98-168-252-218.om.om.cox.net] has left #lisp 21:54:12 -!- retroj [~retroj@unaffiliated/retroj] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:55:16 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 21:56:42 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-23-78.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:59:38 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 22:02:39 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@adsl-71-158-175-227.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: hadronzoo] 22:06:06 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:08:23 jil [~user@41.189.55.55] has joined #lisp 22:08:32 hello (()) 22:09:05 hello 22:09:49 Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has joined #lisp 22:10:30 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@h19n4c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:14:35 -!- eugu_ [~eugu@213.141.157.147] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:17:04 -!- petercoulton [~petercoul@cpc4-midd16-2-0-cust402.midd.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:17:08 tayloj [~tayloj@cpe-67-248-22-159.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:22:44 rvirding [~chatzilla@h19n4c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 22:24:52 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:26:25 HET4 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 22:30:04 -!- HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:31:59 peterhil_ [~peterhil@a91-153-120-132.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 22:34:47 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@h19n4c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 22:35:20 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:35:46 ldunn [~user@d110-32-131-107.sun800.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:36:03 redline6561 [~redline@user-24-214-18-208.knology.net] has joined #lisp 22:37:18 -!- badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:37:46 Avisch [~Avisch@cpe-74-67-177-141.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:37:56 Heh, found a funny comment on ccls numbers.lisp source in 5-to-e: (* (5-to-e 335)(5-to-e (- e 335))) ; for the dude who types 200 digits and e-500 22:42:41 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-168-177.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:43:05 -!- devon [~devon@xyzzy.csail.mit.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:43:25 wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-168-177.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:45:54 -!- astalla [~astalla@net-188-153-5-247.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has quit [Quit: Sto andando via] 22:47:41 -!- billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has left #lisp 22:48:08 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:48:10 billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 22:49:26 -!- redline6561 [~redline@user-24-214-18-208.knology.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:49:47 holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 22:49:55 tcleval [~funnyguy@187.114.112.218] has joined #lisp 22:50:18 hi, on CL is there conditional compilation? something like #ifdef #ifndef in C 22:51:01 tcleval: conditional reading is more common 22:51:15 tcleval: it's done with #+ and #- and cl:*features* 22:51:41 tcleval: for example, this code will be skipped if :SBCL is not present in *features*: #-sbcl (sb-ext:frobbity 42) 22:51:52 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A4EA6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:53:37 oh I see. Well I was thinking about the THREAD implementation on CLISP SBCL and others. It seams they dont "agree" how a thread library and its components should be, so if I wanted to code something using threads, I should worry about conditional compilation 22:54:04 tcleval: many people just use the bordeaux-threads compatibility library for that 22:55:11 Yeah I am reading its page right now :-) 22:57:48 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-138-23.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 22:58:25 Okay so what are auxilliary variables for..? 22:59:13 davazp [~user@84.122.72.152.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 22:59:18 BOA 23:00:38 clhs 3.4.6 23:00:39 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_df.htm 23:01:03 -!- tcr [~tcr@81-233-246-97-no37.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:07:00 abugosh [~Adium@pool-74-103-38-231.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:07:50 redline6561 [~redline@user-24-214-18-208.knology.net] has joined #lisp 23:08:41 adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-51-224.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 23:09:43 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-51-141.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:12:55 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:13:50 -!- Amadiro_ [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1747.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:22:33 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:22:56 -!- Avisch [~Avisch@cpe-74-67-177-141.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:23:17 Avisch [~Avisch@cpe-74-67-177-141.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:23:56 -!- davazp [~user@84.122.72.152.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:24:38 Is there a way to refer to current lisp implementations extension library in conditional execution? Ie. ccl: or sb-ext: 23:25:18 Or do I just use #+(or ccl sbcl) (...) 23:25:20 ? 23:26:14 I want to adapt the ruan interval arithmetic library to work with ccl 23:27:02 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-78-229-186.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:28:42 From what you are writing, I see no reason that you could not do that with #+ etc.. 23:29:06 peterhil_: #+ and #- are designed for that purpose 23:29:20 Amadiro_ [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1747.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 23:30:01 -!- varjag [~eugene@84.118.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 23:31:32 -!- kpreid_ [~kpreid@166.190.35.150] has quit [Quit: Offline] 23:34:24 drewc: thank you, slime-query-replace-system is pretty much just what i was looking for. in the meantime i played with M-x grep which is also pretty helpful 07:11:07 ccl-logbot [~ccl-logbo@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 07:11:07 07:11:07 -!- names: ccl-logbot kleppari nullman relcomp timor mrSpec HET2 hohoho antoszka rbarraud_ Jabberwockey Athas tcr waif pdelgallego Davsebamse rootzlevel aidalgol SandGorgon slyrus_ sharps` spradnyesh gzip4 akimbo Demosthenes tcleval Plazma ikki navigator danlei Elench atomx sykopomp metasyntax jan247 coyO retroj sbahra jxonas larry65 pchrist sonnym tankrim Madsy Adamant jmcphers konr lichtblau jbd Jasko udzinari redline6561 MetalDust s0ber holycow fda314925 legumbre 07:11:07 -!- names: rtoym ramus Krystof benny ASau drewc dstatyvka gz Euthydemus metasyntax`` peterhil_ wubo NNshag lemoinem housel bzzbzz mathrick m4thrick arbscht cods rotty Yamazaki-kun Blkt mulander billstclair christoph_debian tvaalen luis ineiros eldragon araujo fe[nl]ix daniel marienz Salamander_ TR2N jmbr ASau` c|mell ace4016 Obfuscate joast Lycurgus steven_t cataska_ lnostdal Taggnostr krl sixpoint8 TraumaPony Draggor sellout fatblueduck billitch1 dto mgr CrEddy 07:11:07 -!- names: Beetny DrForr rread kephas clop ineiros_ l_a_m rrice REPLeffect MikeSeth TomJ hlavaty stokachu prip frodef Tordek lharc rdd kvsari stettberger BrianRice ski rahul billitch samo dmiles_afk djm Amadiro adeht galdor tessier bobbysmith007 mal__ beach delYsid PuffTheMagic antifuchs Xach Ralith mrfredconcklin Tril madnificent hugod tsuru abeaumont nuba abend ianmcorvidae specbot lisppaste Buganini Quadrescence Aferlak12 tychoish muddyferret trebor_home phadthai 07:11:07 -!- names: Modius stepnem PissedNu1lock johanbev turbo24prg aoh AntiSpamMeta erk__ qsun jrockway p_l zfx erg_ Borbus kooll pok amaron golgotha _3b zbigniew vsync joshe emma froydnj rapacity Holcxjo Bucciarati dcrawford felipe pkhuong_ bougyman codemonkeyx Fade seejay mtd spacebat Patzy lucca clog johs Khisanth albino deepfire reb djinni` slyrus cthuluh OliverUv Odin- quasisane boyscared Tabmow tomaw dostoyevsky fmu brickhazel schmrkc [df] dym Tasunteld acieroid yacin 07:11:07 -!- names: Adrinael scode eno xavieran_ jgrant Aisling setheus Ginei_Morioka mornfall potatishandlarn easyE _3b` pr_ z0d Axioplase pjb ``Erik vinnana Pepe_ gz` @Zhivago zeroish lusory Xof ecraven nasloc__ Dazhbog hanneso amontez rsynnott joga hc_e jpanest hohum yahooooo foom krappie pp206 xristos cYmen jsnell kloeri herbieB levene__ lonstein leviathan cpt_nemo 07:12:33 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-110-87.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 07:12:43 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-91-47.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 07:12:45 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:14:39 vandemar [nonserviam@2001:470:1f10:56b::4] has joined #lisp 07:24:32 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-67-161-117-56.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:24:47 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-67-161-117-56.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:26:24 aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:31:00 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 07:31:24 -!- aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 07:33:32 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 07:37:00 zomgbie [~jesus@212095007030.public.telering.at] has 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[~leo@r190-135-40-164.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 08:06:29 elderK [~elderK@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has joined #lisp 08:07:46 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-22-199.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:08:51 -!- rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-92-1-24.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:08:55 MagBo [~Sweater@mpe-2-170.mpe.lv] has joined #lisp 08:09:06 rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-92-1-24.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 08:09:57 -!- albino [~albino@69.12.222.214] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:10:44 albino [~albino@69.12.222.214] has joined #lisp 08:11:16 (defun foo (function) #'(lambda (arg1 &rest args) (declare (ignore arg1)) (apply function args))) 08:11:26 Can anyone think of a good name for it? 08:12:02 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-94-44-6-174.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 08:13:00 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-94-44-6-174.vodafone.hu] has quit [Client Quit] 08:13:03 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-94-44-6-174.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 08:14:37 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-94-44-6-174.vodafone.hu] has quit [Client Quit] 08:14:39 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@apn-94-44-6-174.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 08:14:41 -!- attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 08:17:14 tcr: "call-tail"? It calls your function with the tail of the arguments list 08:17:25 tcr: looks like curry without the curry 08:17:40 co-curry? 08:17:41 call-with-tail 08:19:00 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@apn-94-44-6-174.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 08:19:10 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-94-44-6-174.vodafone.hu] has quit [Disconnected by services] 08:20:13 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-91-47.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:21:29 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-94-44-7-76.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 08:21:32 -!- attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@apn-94-44-6-174.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:24:11 aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 08:28:33 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:29:35 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:30:18 mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 08:30:24 serichsen [~user@g228197050.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:30:28 Good morning! 08:32:45 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.56.37] has joined #lisp 08:32:47 tcr: yrruc, given that it's the inverse of currying (-: 08:33:55 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 08:33:56 ehu [~ehuels@77.86.30.139] has joined #lisp 08:34:56 antifuchs: how about curry^-1 ? 08:35:06 -!- Holcxjo [~holly@pdpc/supporter/active/hdurer] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:35:19 anything starting with call- looks very misleading to me (as the function won't actually be called) 08:35:25 -!- ehu [~ehuels@77.86.30.139] has left #lisp 08:35:56 -!- sharps` [~user@ip-118-90-28-76.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:36:59 jsnell: right. 08:37:25 uncurry-with-ignored-first-arg 08:37:49 ncurry. Without the first letter, to remind that it ignores the first arg. 08:38:13 ah, that would be the destructive curry operation 08:38:22 of vital importance on slow machines of the 80s 08:38:39 It doesn't actually undo a prior currying, so uncurry is not so good. 08:39:05 <_3b> uncurry was my first thought, but it apparently already means something else :p 08:40:48 to-drop-first, ignore-first, no-better-name-for-it, foo, make-call-with-tail 08:41:09 -!- larry65 [~larry65@d122-105-194-245.adl8.sa.optusnet.com.au] has left #lisp 08:41:13 These are my last words. Procrastination will not take over my day. 08:41:20 *Axioplase* vanishes 08:42:41 Xantoz [~hejhej@c83-251-227-152.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 08:45:37 -!- aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 08:46:17 -!- CrEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:46:19 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440781.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:47:04 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 08:50:14 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440822.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 08:54:09 -!- MagBo [~Sweater@mpe-2-170.mpe.lv] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:55:38 -!- kvsari [~kvsari@203.171.93.21.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:56:23 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 08:57:03 simoncpu [~soulfury@120.89.47.9] has joined #lisp 08:57:07 lisp sucks 08:57:10 *simoncpu* waits for it 08:57:42 -!- simoncpu [~soulfury@120.89.47.9] has left #lisp 08:59:14 What a bad troll. 08:59:49 His troll mother must be so embarrassed. 09:00:21 indeed 09:00:51 he could at least have waited so we could have the time to react on his trolling 09:01:13 he waited whole 30 seconds 09:01:29 -!- Elench [~Elench@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 09:02:01 yes, that is far to short if you want to troll someone 09:06:15 xan_ [~xan@59-124-113-6.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 09:07:31 OliverUv_ [~gandhi@34.81-167-250.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 09:08:56 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:09:42 pavelludiq [~user@87.246.30.76] has joined #lisp 09:10:43 -!- OliverUv [~gandhi@34.81-167-250.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:10:51 daniel_ [~daniel@p5082B63D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:13:46 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5B3265B1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:16:58 kuwabara [~kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.fr] has joined #lisp 09:24:22 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 09:30:27 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 09:31:38 -!- danlei [~user@unaffiliated/danlei] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:32:03 zomgbie [~jesus@212095007035.public.telering.at] has joined #lisp 09:35:03 -!- jxonas [~jxonas@187.106.53.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:35:48 ehu [~ehuels@77.86.30.139] has joined #lisp 09:36:52 Dodek [~xyzzyz@213-238-72-241.adsl.inetia.pl] has joined #lisp 09:37:46 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@212095007035.public.telering.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:41:01 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 09:42:37 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 09:46:37 zomgbie [~jesus@212095007096.public.telering.at] has joined #lisp 09:50:04 -!- rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-92-1-24.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:50:14 rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-93-161-254.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 09:50:18 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-94-44-7-76.vodafone.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:55:21 simoncpu [~soulfury@120.89.47.9] has joined #lisp 09:55:26 MikeSeth: no they didn't 09:55:29 :p 09:55:30 -!- simoncpu [~soulfury@120.89.47.9] has left #lisp 09:55:50 ...troll 09:57:41 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 10:07:35 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-181-149.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:09:02 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@212095007096.public.telering.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:09:42 MagBo [~Sweater@195.114.56.71] has joined #lisp 10:10:02 -!- jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:13:20 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-rpxuynmzomtpezfd] has left #lisp 10:22:09 ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 10:28:51 or a very very very confused person 10:29:07 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:31:54 silenius [~silenus@p4FC230A0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:32:13 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-181-149.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 10:36:42 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-181-149.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:38:53 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-94-44-2-184.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 10:40:40 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:40:43 Bronsa [~bronsa@host124-117-dynamic.60-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 10:41:14 aidalgol [~user@114-134-6-5.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #lisp 10:41:50 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 10:42:36 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0A6A6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:44:13 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-94-44-2-184.vodafone.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:44:47 slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0A6A6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:46:30 HET3 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[~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-38-3.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:15:06 -!- peterhil_ [peterhil@a91-153-120-132.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:15:24 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 12:15:42 -!- revel0___ [~revel0@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Quit: ~ Trillian Astra - www.trillian.im ~] 12:19:53 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0A6A6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 254 seconds] 12:21:12 can someone recommend a good lisp doc generator 12:21:21 one that is actually maintained 12:22:15 -!- silenius [~silenus@p4FC230A0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:23:21 spearalot [~spearalot@192.165.126.74] has joined #lisp 12:24:59 carlocci [~nes@93.37.219.5] has joined #lisp 12:27:06 I've never seen such a system that works well... outside Don Knuth's stuff. 12:28:16 but if you're religious abut doc strings and :documentation tags in your defgenerics, I think there's some native support for same in common lisp. I don't know much about it. 12:29:27 PuffTheMagic: I'm no expert, but Edi Weitz maintains documentation for CL-PPCRE, Hunchentoot, Drakma, et al. with a custom package http://weitz.de/documentation-template/ 12:30:11 well, that's what he uses to make the skeleton 12:30:18 he uses emacs and html to maintain it. 12:30:27 *Xach* uses emacs and html also 12:30:33 Xach: eh, never used it myself :) 12:30:52 that dont work with ccl it looks like 12:31:10 so there is no good tex based doc tool? 12:31:50 PuffTheMagic: I don't think there is a widely-used tool for that. 12:32:08 doesnt look like any of the tool are widely used ;) 12:32:15 Several smart authors have tools for it, but you can count the users on one half-hand. 12:32:29 Rearden [~John@209-217-211-155.northland.net] has joined #lisp 12:35:38 slash_ [~unknown@p5DD1D3CF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:36:02 what does tex-based mean to you? 12:37:09 PuffTheMagic: perhaps build something on top of cl-typesetting 12:38:01 lichtblau: outputs LaTeX 12:38:07 instead of html 12:38:13 or in addition to 12:38:36 Do you want the program to generate an entire document LaTeX document for you (like atdoc does) or help you when writing a document yourself, by writing small snippets that you can incorporate into that hand-written document (like texinfo-docstrings does for texinfo, albeit not LaTeX)? 12:38:40 is lispdoc still around 12:38:44 This is going to sound cynical, but I spent a bunch of time on this and eventually ended up deciding that meta-. and good comments was the answer (which is sad) 12:39:06 texinfo-docstrings is one of those libraries which I highly recommend but have never used 12:39:06 I'd much prefer a proper system though 12:40:40 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-181-149.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 12:40:48 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:41:08 does texinfo-docstrings have a webpage 12:41:11 all i see is a gitrepo 12:41:31 -!- metasyntax`` is now known as metasyntax` 12:43:29 Joreji [~thomas@94-103.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:43:42 Anyone have a good example or hint for using cl-containers to make a key-value sorted container? Inherit it from red-black-tree + Key-Value-Iteratable-Container-Mixin? 12:43:59 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-181-149.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:44:16 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:45:43 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 12:46:25 PuffTheMagic: no real webpage I'm aware of, but its code is derived from SBCL's manual, which has given it some visibility and a modicum of popularity even without a proper homepage. 12:46:40 (BTw, get the original ~loliveira, not the github one.) 12:47:27 is there any example of it being use floating around anywhere 12:48:52 -!- Joreji [~thomas@94-103.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:51:28 Interesting, never knew about texinfo-docstrings, but: README = "Very preliminary stuff built upon SB-TEXINFO. Still very ad-hoc. Document later." Ironic. 12:52:05 yeah i downloaded that a few days ago and stopped about there 12:52:12 examples are, I believe, SBCL, alexandria, iolib, babel, osicat 12:52:39 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@chello212186106204.11.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:53:01 zomgbie [~jesus@chello212186106204.11.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 12:53:39 and it hasn't been changed in >3 years 12:54:00 that was the main reason i didnt go farther 12:54:02 Like much Lisp software, perfect at birth. 12:54:08 its hard to tell with these lisp libs 12:54:13 if they are still in use 1/2 the time 12:54:27 lnostdal-android [~androirc@77.19.147.16.tmi.telenormobil.no] has joined #lisp 12:55:50 with a few exceptions, we're at an interesting point where the number of libraries and the number of developers working in the language pretty much assures that if you're using some pretty narrow-focus library, you're probably the only one at any given time. 12:56:08 things like iolib and alexandria and hunchentoot being obvious exceptions. 12:57:00 yeah i've come to notice that 12:57:12 I sent a patch to get mel-base compiled on modern sbcl to their dev list almost a month ago, and I've never heard anything about it. :) 12:57:14 Fade: seems "narrow focus" is vague enough to make that always true 12:57:18 its a shame, i wouldnt have gotten into lisp if it were not for ACT-R 12:57:26 and now its becoming a fav lang 12:57:43 which surprised me, inasmuch as it seemed 'mail' was something that somebody somewhere almost always had to deal with. 12:58:28 jxonas_ [~chatzilla@201.82.4.152] has joined #lisp 12:58:34 Fade: I think that might fall into the "easier to roll your own than find someone else's" bucket in some respects. 12:58:42 *Fade* nods 12:58:59 The last time I had to send mail, I made with-output-to-mail. a dozen or so lines to pipe to sendmail. 12:59:07 mail is something I've had to deal with, and mel-based certainly helped me with, but even though it's comprehensive I didn't feel that mel-base is the code base I'd want to invest in 12:59:20 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 12:59:27 Fade: I'd say iolib is in the "narrow focus on very common use" 12:59:31 i thought mel-base was a pretty decent foundation that hadn't been finished. 12:59:35 the code is well organised. 12:59:51 -!- jxonas [~chatzilla@201.82.4.152] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:59:53 -!- jxonas_ is now known as jxonas 13:02:22 well, I had to make several changes to make it work for me (and work speedily), and felt that my changes didn't fit in, because of assumptions hidden in its design (that was around the IMAP code though, which is always tricky). I think broken-down, carefully layered special-purpose library pieces would make that sort of thing easier. 13:02:55 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@chello212186106204.11.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:03:08 yeah. it doesn't support poking the imap server to, forex, get a list of the new messages on the account. 13:03:27 and I have a patch to add that functionality, but I'm not sure how it fits with what's already there. 13:03:42 I figured when I had it combed out, I'd submit it to the list and see if anybody was awake. 13:04:33 it could definitely stand for some refactoring. 13:10:26 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-110-87.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:10:58 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:12:49 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:14:24 zomgbie [~jesus@chello212186106204.11.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 13:15:12 evantravers [~evan@204.15.48.178] has joined #lisp 13:17:46 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 13:18:07 -!- rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-93-161-254.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:19:18 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Quit: Adamant] 13:22:56 mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:25:10 -!- Aferlak12 [~Aferlak12@64.120.233.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:25:46 -!- evantravers [~evan@204.15.48.178] has quit [Quit: evantravers] 13:29:32 -!- spearalot [~spearalot@192.165.126.74] has quit [Quit: -arividerchi] 13:30:58 btw, I've got a reliable way to programmatically generate Dalvik bytecode, which might be a good first step toward Lisp on Android :) 13:31:47 that's be _awesome_ 13:32:00 Do an android lisp500 :) 13:32:11 heh 13:32:17 Phantom_Hoover [~phantomho@92.233.174.117] has joined #lisp 13:32:37 -!- Phantom_Hoover [~phantomho@92.233.174.117] has left #lisp 13:32:39 I know there was some effort to get clojure on dalvik, but I dunno what state that is in. 13:32:55 I hope to start by writing a subset of CL that will work on both CL implementations and compile into dalvik assembly (to be assembled by the library I found) 13:33:33 clojure works on DVM, but without runtime code generation 13:34:58 Yuuhi [benni@p5483C09C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:35:02 mmmmm clojure 13:35:15 kenjin2201 [~kenjin@163.152.125.18] has joined #lisp 13:35:21 speaking of Android.. there are chinese ipad clones w/Android 1.7 for $100 13:35:25 should I buy one? 13:35:34 I'm not going now for full CL on android, but it could be used to bootstrap one 13:35:45 MikeSeth: it's 1.6, and graphics are kinda slow 13:36:01 yeah I've read some reviews to that effect 13:36:13 *p_l* knows someone who bought it to use as ebook reader 13:36:46 MikeSeth: well, it *has* to be slow... ~300 MHz ARM cpu without any real GPU and getting a *much* bigger resolution to fill? 13:37:13 I won't know the hardware specs 13:37:19 but, it looks nice :P 13:38:11 MikeSeth: well, you mentioned China, iPad clone and $100. My friend bought his from Hongkong for $100 and it had ~300 MHz ARM without many fancy things :) 13:39:25 Bah, just get one of the zillions of cheap android tablets coming out. 13:39:41 Zhivago: that's one of those :D 13:40:14 the $100 one is quite nice, and I suspect it has capacitive touchscreen (given certain funny troubles my friend's father had with it) 13:40:17 Also, look into K Lambda which a google engineer is developing for lisp on android. 13:40:34 p_l: http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.42070 something like this? 13:40:39 that's HK 13:41:41 looks familiar. I heard there's a slightly more expensive model with a better cpu inside 13:42:53 yeah there's a bunch of them 13:43:12 ARM926 sounds like the chip I had in my ooold phone :) 13:43:42 yeah well it's china.. cloning other people's designs takes time :> 13:44:13 there are windows ce gadgets with 500MHz chips.. but they usually cost around $180+ 13:44:46 revel0___ [~revel0@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 13:45:12 http://www.lambdassociates.org/blog/klambda.htm 13:45:23 -!- Davsebamse [~davse@82.103.143.161] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:45:38 -!- vsync [~vsync@24.173.173.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:46:17 Fade: clojure works on android devices, I thought 13:46:45 I haven't been following it too closely. Im waiting for my aging razr to die before I buy a new device. 13:46:51 p_l: I keep forgetting who was trying to modify abcl to get it running on android, your work will most likely interest him 13:47:05 *madnificent* now wants lisp on WebOS :) 13:47:05 Elench [~Elench@unaffiliated/elench] has joined #lisp 13:47:35 josemanuel [~josemanue@80.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 13:47:44 *madnificent* does a happy dance for palm/hp 13:47:50 Joreji [~thomas@94-103.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:51:06 webos has a pretty standard linux/gnu userland, no? 13:51:43 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:51:51 no idea, frankly speaking, I want more iPaq devices than WebOS ones :D 13:52:50 i'm not particularly charmed by the whole "web as interface to everything" trend. 13:52:58 I am. I think it's great. 13:53:22 Hurrah for the DOM. Finally an introspectable bloody UI layer that people can largely agree on. 13:54:41 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:54:55 plus, extensibility through things like greasemonkey 13:55:19 Fade: yup, basically you can go through the PDK and just run a normal lisp in there 13:56:02 Fade: the main things are generating the javascript code to hook into the model webos tries to impose on applications for the displaying part (applications are based on cards) 13:56:22 parenscript should aid with that. 13:56:26 -!- Joreji [~thomas@94-103.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:56:40 *madnificent* dislikes parenscript, but yes, it would spit out the correct javascript code 13:57:22 I'm currently planning on following a slightly different route, but ECL+parenscript is certainly on the list 13:57:38 (I pick ECL due to the memory-constraints on a mobile device) 13:58:04 however, any lisp that runs on arm should do 13:59:19 pixpop [~pixpop@166.205.138.116] has joined #lisp 13:59:43 interesting 13:59:56 -!- pixpop [~pixpop@166.205.138.116] has quit [Client Quit] 14:00:24 rme [~rme@pool-70-106-132-29.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:01:28 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.10.152] has joined #lisp 14:02:35 -!- revel0___ [~revel0@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Quit: ~ Trillian Astra - www.trillian.im ~] 14:02:46 why don't you just write the javascript yourself? it's not that painful. 14:03:03 -!- ehu [~ehuels@77.86.30.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:03:03 antifuchs: perfectly possible 14:03:14 antifuchs: in fact, I may end up doing that anyways 14:04:04 antifuchs: you'd still need to implement the connection WebOS provides from C to the PDK app. So you'd still need to write the CFFI bindings 14:05:23 antifuchs: as as added benefit, it may well be that the applications become fairly light, as the code is compiled for the specific machine. Maybe js is light-weight too, I don't know how Palm handled the javascript interpreter 14:05:54 either case, the PDK isn't officially available yet for linux 14:10:08 -!- navigator [~navigator@p54897A25.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:42:46 ccl-logbot [~ccl-logbo@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 10:42:46 10:42:46 -!- names: ccl-logbot kuwabara araujo loxs dym jmbr homie wbooze jmcphers ignas TraumaPony elderK beach tfb antoszka hargettp attila_lendvai varjag daniel_ Dodek lnostdal-android cataska mbohun lemoinem retroj bzzbzz_ nha dmiles legumbre_ Davidbrcz serichsen kiuma fiveop scode Xantoz puddingpimp Adamant pdelgallego gravicappa jdz Deesl Kenjin kleppari mega1 MetalDust aerique rdd tcr gemelen Salamander_ em trebor_dki leviathan spaceface Raynes SandGorgon vu3rdd 10:42:46 -!- names: nullman spradnyesh stassats ikki kephas franki^ Quadrescence debiandebian tcleval lolsuper_ fatblueduck pjb sykopomp clop coyo ianmcorvidae l_n salva sonnym Nshag sellout 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[~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:52:13 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-181-149.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:54:03 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:56:43 xan_ [~xan@59.5.2.219] has joined #lisp 11:56:48 -!- puddingpimp [~dave@118-92-20-145.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:57:15 -!- holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:57:49 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Quit: astoon] 12:00:07 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 12:04:11 jhalogen [~jake@customer-74.203.304.pdchawaii.com] has joined #lisp 12:06:41 Blkt [~user@93-33-132-244.ip44.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 12:07:34 Yuuhi [benni@p5483BA73.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:09:13 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:09:52 *Xach* tries to remember if attending an ILC awards 1 year or 2 years of ALU membership 12:10:11 is alu expensive? 12:10:59 dto: registration fee is $465 for non-members and $390 for members 12:11:24 dto: for ILC, that is. but going to ILC grants you membership for a certain time. i think it's just for one year, though. 12:12:17 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-177-178.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:13:11 Is there something like a macroexpand-n ie. expands n levels of macro? 12:13:57 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-168-107.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 12:14:18 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:14:36 Jabberwockey [~Jens@port-14408.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 12:15:12 wubo [80f40909@gateway/web/freenode/ip.128.244.9.9] has joined #lisp 12:15:41 I only know of macroexpand and macroexpand-1, which could be applied n times 12:17:13 Oh yeah.. didn't think to apply macroexpand-1 again... 12:17:41 zophy [~sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 12:19:05 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-168-107.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:19:27 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0B840.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:21:57 ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 12:22:30 lexa_ [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 12:22:33 In the book practical common lisp, the author writes a macro with-gensyms which binds variables to gensym'd symbols, but in the downloadable version he replaces (gensym) with (make-symbol ,(string n)) Why is this? 12:22:35 -!- lexa_ [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 12:23:02 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:23:38 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 12:23:46 -!- e-future [~e-future@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:24:06 e-future [~e-future@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #lisp 12:24:48 Darn, it's one year. 12:25:36 just let cliki go under already 12:25:59 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 12:26:10 hah. no, my ALU membership from last May only lasted one year. So I have to pay the extra $75 to register for the conference. 12:27:16 any link to that conference? 12:27:22 -!- TomJ- is now known as TomJ 12:27:34 Blkt: http://xach.livejournal.com/264631.html has some info and links 12:27:51 thanks 12:27:53 HG` [~HG@xdsleq179.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 12:28:32 jgracin [~jgracin@dh111-186.xnet.hr] has joined #lisp 12:28:53 Does make-symbol perform some kind of disambiguation is a symbol already has that name? 12:28:57 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:29:50 Borbus: no. make-symbol always makes a new symbol. 12:32:54 bohunm [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 12:33:29 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:33:49 -!- bohunm [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:34:09 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 12:34:21 What is the point of gensym then? What happens if two symbols do have the same name? 12:34:56 gensym makes them somewhat visually distinct. 12:35:15 it adds the value from an increasing counter to the end of the name. 12:37:15 slash_ [~unknown@p5DD1CD28.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:45:15 Hmm. The hotel says there are no more OOPSLA discounted rooms available. That is a crock. 12:45:26 *Xach* will have to call and see what's up 12:47:56 nyef [~nyef@pool-71-255-129-229.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 12:48:15 G'morning all. 12:54:21 Xach: I believe the standard trick for hotels is to discount rooms from an extremely notional price in any case -- i.e. "discount" rooms often end up more expensive than if you book without mentioning any conferences at all 12:54:41 this may be different in the highly-regulated commercial environment of Reno, of course 12:56:04 Stay at the Nugget  I think that's the good one. 12:56:18 *sellout* had to visit Reno way too often when he worked at Amazon. 12:58:20 does Amazon live in Nevada?! 12:59:09 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host223-189-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:59:24 rsynnott: It's the closest major warehouse to Seattle, so we'd go there to test out new procedures, and to "debug" things. 12:59:46 You headed to Reno for ILC? 13:00:11 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-91-47.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:01:11 Bronsa [~bronsa@host223-189-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 13:01:30 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.9.128] has joined #lisp 13:01:54 I dunno. Have to ask the powers that be  but I haven't been much of a lisper lately (but SPLASH would also be cool). 13:02:26 Maybe I could stay at my in-laws' Lake Tahoe house. 13:02:31 I think that's close. 13:02:31 -!- dym [~dym@217.20.175.226] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:03:03 *Xach* enjoyed OOPSLA 2007 in montreal very much, but it helped to have a local guide 13:03:54 *sellout* liked OOPSLA Nashville, but the only thing my "local guide" showed me was a climbing gym (which was just fine by me). 13:04:24 Xach: In Reno there's not much outside the casinos. 13:04:31 *Xach* is reminded of the completely off-topic http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6TtACF2VCs 13:04:49 isn't there a charming atom bomb test site nearby? 13:05:12 sellout: Yannick Gingras (who hacked fractal stuff in CL but now mostly uses python) showed me around town. Very nice guy. 13:05:29 *Xach* wonders how many all-night poutine places are in reno 13:06:01 ooh, they actually do tours! 13:10:56 Xach: hahaha 13:11:12 Xach: perspective and moves remind me of various free-running games like assassin's creed (: 13:11:52 or, motion-captured animation ones, more like. 13:14:21 Xach: will your kids ever collaborate on a 1001 nights-themed jump and run? 13:14:35 *Xach* can't bet against it 13:14:44 I would hope they do 13:16:16 puddingpimp [~dave@118-92-157-222.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 13:17:20 dym [~dym@217.20.175.226] has joined #lisp 13:23:25 navigator [~navigator@p5489555C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:24:57 mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:26:00 -!- Salamander_ is now known as Salamander 13:31:47 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-bftzfhvdyvrlsnpw] has left #lisp 13:31:54 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:36:27 -!- sellout [~greg@64.134.240.57] has quit [Quit: sellout] 13:40:18 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-207-180.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:42:08 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:43:30 -!- Raynes [~macr0@unaffiliated/raynes] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:45:31 Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 13:46:35 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsleq179.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:46:46 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 13:47:53 tritchey [~tritchey@205.233.9.181] has joined #lisp 13:47:58 level300 [~some@purpletree.org] has joined #lisp 13:53:19 sellout [~greg@c-24-128-49-113.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:54:26 jleija [~jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 13:54:56 -!- jgracin [~jgracin@dh111-186.xnet.hr] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 13:58:03 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host223-189-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:00:16 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 14:00:23 -!- loxs [~loxs@213.169.45.106] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:00:31 Raynes [~macr0@unaffiliated/raynes] has joined #lisp 14:00:44 Xach: BTW, that Isaac video is great :) 14:03:20 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-91-47.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 14:07:26 mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has joined #lisp 14:07:36 loxs [~loxs@213.169.45.106] has joined #lisp 14:09:52 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440822.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: hugod] 14:09:55 -!- retroj [~retroj@unaffiliated/retroj] has quit [Disconnected by services] 14:10:13 retroj [~retroj@unaffiliated/retroj] has joined #lisp 14:10:47 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 14:14:17 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.9.128] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:17:23 I think Isaac is a parkour afficionado in the making. 14:17:36 -!- xan_ [~xan@59.5.2.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:17:45 david belle better watch out. :) 14:18:00 xan_ [~xan@59.5.2.162] has 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17:01:11 -!- names: ccl-logbot ramus gigamonkey abugosh sonnym mjonsson kami francogrex antivigilante tritchey Krystof jmbr udzinari cisticola nikodemus zomgbie mathrick Edward_ antoszka ASau gonzojive m4thrick gravicappa RaceCondition rrice SegFaultAX beach` Yuuhi` sbahra zophy manic12 _s1gma jaiball wbooze homie stepnem Kenjin peterhil bgs100 ace4016 Aferlak12 stassats Zephyrus dfox yrgd dreish e-future fiveop ikki z0d peterhil` rbarraud lemonade` Xach hargettp urandom__ 17:01:11 -!- names: stis jewel ignas Athas vsync jmcphers pdelgallego serichsen aceluck morphling legumbre_ timor rdd kleppari mrSpec emacs-dwim simplechat bozhidar zc00gii Salamander_ derrida kpreid_ lisppaste MetalDust Tordek christoph_debian gds mulander Nshag redline6561 CrEddy sellout Euthydemus rich_holygoat Plazma Buganini khrum42 daniel tankrim lolsuper_ psilord1 dmiles_afk cinch TomJ Kae cpt_nemo dfkjjkfd weirdo cow-orker salva lusory pchrist cmm BrianRice kephas 17:01:11 -!- names: incandenza bobbysmith007 hohum sykopomp lnostdal rpg Jasko heaumer deepfire rread dstatyvka Adamant srolls ianmcorvidae rootzlevel scode eldragon arbscht franki^ Borbus trebor_dki rsynnott levene fda314925 angavrilov Modius lemoinem eno phadthai Anarch sabalaba bzzbzz rtoym schmrkc naiv billstclair s0ber hypno Aisling metasyntax Amadiro Madsy dnm acieroid adeht Tasunteld HarryS TraumaPony Khisanth quasisane gonzojive1 [df] prip PuffTheMagic debiandebian 17:01:11 -!- names: mornfall tsuru madnificent metasyntax` delYsid yacin stokachu slyrus araujo rahul Demosthenes djinni` rapacity Dousan seejay tychoish hugod Lycurgus Tabmow eli Ralith Dodek srcerer micro`` samo albino foom fe[nl]ix OliverUv erg felipe stettberger AntiSpamMeta Pepe_ kooll tessier Patzy bougyman galdor zbigniew kuwabara vinnana jsnell andreer gz xristos chris___1 p_l ski bfein ecraven baley emma dboswell PissedNumlock ineiros_ Xantoz minion Quadrescence 17:01:11 -!- names: johanbev yahooooo Obfuscate Holcxjo joshe starseeker dcrawford zfx mapour leviathan nullman pjb clop Deltafire Davsebamse marienz erk__ pkhuong_ Fade spacebat clog tomaw easyE turbo24prg brickhazel fmu` Adrinael Yamazaki-kun antifuchs _3b` xavieran_ boyscared reb mtd Bucciarati Xof mal__ nuba ``Erik lonstein kloeri pp206 rotty tvaalen hanneso qsun MikeSeth Dazhbog @Zhivago amontez cYmen jpanest hc_e aoh johs herbieB l_a_m pr krappie_ housel cods luis 17:01:11 -!- names: ineiros ASau` joast Draggor frodef djm Tril abend jrockway potatishandlarn Ginei_Morioka setheus dostoyevsky Odin- codemonkeyx _3b amaron pok 17:01:38 jleija [~jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 17:04:30 slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0B34E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:04:44 Spewns [~jake@97-92-222-240.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 17:07:58 -!- gonzojive [~red@128.12.169.254] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 17:08:14 gonzojive [~red@128.12.169.254] has joined #lisp 17:09:00 hi nikodemus 17:12:49 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.159.110] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:13:23 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:14:51 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-131-138.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 17:18:11 -!- abugosh [~Adium@207-172-111-88.c3-0.tlg-ubr4.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:19:22 krl [~krl@port-87-193-235-133.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 17:23:36 -!- antivigilante [~antivigil@184-98-134-85.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:25:25 -!- Spewns [~jake@97-92-222-240.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:27:08 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 17:28:33 Joreji [~thomas@77-066.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 17:28:37 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@87.112.73.103.plusnet.ptn-ag2.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 17:32:09 mrbug [~user@unaffiliated/mrbug] has joined #lisp 17:32:57 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-131-138.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:33:58 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-131-138.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 17:36:36 -!- Holcxjo [~holly@home.sinclair-durer.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 17:37:18 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-066.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:37:28 Holcxjo [~holly@home.sinclair-durer.net] has joined #lisp 17:37:30 postamar [~postamar@x-132-204-34-3.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 17:38:08 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:42:09 silenius [~silenus@p54946615.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:43:31 red1ynx [~Dzmitry@91.149.140.201] has joined #lisp 17:43:59 "I am sick to death of knee-jerk anti-LOOPism and I am beginning to irrationally regard it as a plot to disable me as a programmer by excommunicating my most useful tools." --Alan Baldwin, 1982 17:44:09 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:44:48 eh ? 17:44:59 is LOOP lisp or not ? 17:45:21 hi Xach 17:48:14 gigamonkey: LOOP is evil, just like sex and alcohol, and should be, like those two, avoided. 17:49:04 stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 17:50:17 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-131-138.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:50:20 sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:51:00 aceluck: Or combined! 17:51:25 don't drink and loop! 17:52:50 I don't link and doop. Whatcha talkin' about!?! 17:54:24 what is it supposed besmirch FP? 17:55:19 *supposed to 17:56:33 (loop (and drink sex)) 18:01:49 -!- mrSpec [spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:05:04 -!- aceluck [~aceluck@175.144.254.120] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:05:26 aceluck [~aceluck@175.144.254.120] has joined #lisp 18:05:46 drinking causes me loop. 18:06:29 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.163.134] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:08:22 Joreji [~thomas@77-066.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:12:39 ccl-logbot [~ccl-logbo@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 18:12:39 18:12:39 -!- names: ccl-logbot rvirding Joreji aceluck sonnym stepnem red1ynx silenius postamar Holcxjo mrbug ziarkaen krl gonzojive slash_ jleija ramus gigamonkey mjonsson kami Krystof jmbr udzinari cisticola nikodemus zomgbie mathrick Edward_ antoszka ASau m4thrick gravicappa RaceCondition rrice SegFaultAX beach` Yuuhi` sbahra zophy manic12 _s1gma jaiball wbooze homie Kenjin peterhil bgs100 ace4016 Aferlak12 stassats Zephyrus dfox yrgd dreish e-future fiveop z0d peterhil` 18:12:39 -!- names: rbarraud lemonade` Xach hargettp urandom__ stis jewel ignas Athas vsync jmcphers pdelgallego serichsen morphling legumbre_ timor rdd kleppari emacs-dwim simplechat bozhidar zc00gii Salamander_ derrida kpreid_ lisppaste MetalDust Tordek christoph_debian gds mulander Nshag redline6561 CrEddy sellout Euthydemus rich_holygoat Plazma Buganini khrum42 daniel tankrim psilord1 dmiles_afk cinch TomJ Kae cpt_nemo dfkjjkfd weirdo cow-orker salva lusory pchrist cmm 18:12:39 -!- names: BrianRice kephas incandenza bobbysmith007 hohum sykopomp lnostdal rpg Jasko heaumer deepfire rread dstatyvka Adamant srolls ianmcorvidae rootzlevel scode eldragon arbscht franki^ Borbus trebor_dki rsynnott levene fda314925 angavrilov Modius lemoinem eno phadthai Anarch sabalaba bzzbzz rtoym schmrkc naiv billstclair s0ber hypno Aisling metasyntax Amadiro Madsy dnm acieroid adeht Tasunteld HarryS TraumaPony Khisanth quasisane gonzojive1 [df] prip 18:12:39 -!- names: PuffTheMagic debiandebian mornfall tsuru madnificent metasyntax` delYsid yacin stokachu slyrus araujo rahul Demosthenes djinni` rapacity Dousan seejay tychoish hugod Lycurgus Tabmow eli Ralith Dodek srcerer micro`` samo albino foom fe[nl]ix OliverUv erg felipe stettberger AntiSpamMeta Pepe_ kooll tessier Patzy bougyman galdor zbigniew kuwabara vinnana jsnell andreer gz xristos chris___1 p_l ski bfein ecraven baley emma dboswell PissedNumlock ineiros_ 18:12:39 -!- names: Xantoz minion Quadrescence johanbev yahooooo Obfuscate joshe starseeker dcrawford zfx mapour leviathan nullman pjb clop Deltafire Davsebamse marienz erk__ pkhuong_ Fade spacebat clog tomaw easyE turbo24prg brickhazel fmu` Adrinael Yamazaki-kun antifuchs _3b` xavieran_ boyscared reb mtd Bucciarati Xof mal__ nuba ``Erik lonstein kloeri pp206 rotty tvaalen hanneso qsun MikeSeth Dazhbog @Zhivago amontez cYmen jpanest hc_e aoh johs herbieB l_a_m pr krappie_ 18:12:39 -!- names: housel cods luis ineiros ASau` joast Draggor frodef djm Tril abend jrockway potatishandlarn Ginei_Morioka setheus dostoyevsky Odin- codemonkeyx _3b amaron pok 18:12:39 gigamonkey: Don't you mean link and droop? 18:14:37 Odin-: dunno. I'm too lrunk to say. 18:15:15 Ah. Looking for the optimum productivity spot, I take it? 18:15:17 :D 18:15:32 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 18:16:55 tcr [~tcr@81-233-246-97-no37.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 18:17:05 stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 18:17:15 -!- aceluck [~aceluck@175.144.254.120] has quit [Quit: aceluck] 18:18:06 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:19:36 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 18:19:52 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 18:19:54 -!- gz [Clozure@clozure-93943513.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout] 18:20:03 -!- beach` is now known as beach 18:26:02 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-97-238.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:26:08 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-97-238.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:31:30 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-066.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:35:15 lukego [~lukegorri@81-233-246-97-no37.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 18:37:41 atomx [~user@93.112.81.240] has joined #lisp 18:40:32 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 18:43:10 ikki [~ikki@189.139.217.3] has joined #lisp 18:43:46 Joreji [~thomas@77-066.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:45:09 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:46:00 "C purists (I count myself one), who know the difference between prefix ++ and postfix ++, observe that the name C++ may be loosely paraphrased as 'improve C, then throw the result away and use the old language'." --Guy Steele 18:46:15 (On topic only because I found it while reading old Common Lisp design email archives.) 18:47:09 hah :) 18:48:18 So, C++ is a side-effect only programming language? :p 18:48:59 howdy nikodemus 18:49:04 how's life? 18:50:08 _death [void@91.121.18.93] has joined #lisp 18:50:22 -!- adeht [void@91.121.18.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:51:24 gigamonkey: I like that! 18:52:28 daniel_ [~daniel@p5082A52B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:53:05 mrSpec [spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 18:55:49 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 18:55:49 gigamonkey: It has been proved that it is impossible to write correct C++ programs, but is it possible to write a correct program in the C-compatible subset of C++? 18:56:04 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082ACB5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:56:51 sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 18:57:04 stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 18:59:45 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-066.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:00:08 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-12-143.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:03:52 -!- mrbug [~user@unaffiliated/mrbug] has left #lisp 19:08:28 -!- ramus [~ramus@99.23.140.250] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:09:17 -!- mrSpec [spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:12:03 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.67.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:13:02 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:13:48 ramus [~ramus@99.23.140.250] has joined #lisp 19:14:20 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@erft-4d07f053.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 19:15:41 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:17:07 Joreji [~thomas@77-066.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 19:17:19 homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-97-238.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:19:11 sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:19:17 wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-97-238.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:19:38 -!- silenius [~silenus@p54946615.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:20:35 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:20:37 sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:21:15 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:21:49 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 19:22:02 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-066.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:23:06 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 19:23:54 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:24:42 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:24:46 francogrex [~user@109.130.163.134] has joined #lisp 19:26:13 sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:26:26 gz_ [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 19:26:35 -!- gz_ [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has left #lisp 19:26:59 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.78.42] has joined #lisp 19:29:49 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:30:30 sonnym1 [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:30:37 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 19:32:21 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.78.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:33:12 emacs-dwim: I am not sure it is impossible to write correct C++ programs, but I usually come up with a provocative statement similar to this when I teach programming classes to my students: "It is impossible to write a C++ application that is both efficient and modular". 19:33:17 Joreji [~thomas@77-066.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 19:33:26 -!- z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:35:28 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.78.42] has joined #lisp 19:36:40 -!- salva [~salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Quit: salva] 19:38:37 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7570d5.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:38:37 Isn't the same true for Common Lisp? 19:39:31 Or, put differently, an universal truth? 19:40:50 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:41:04 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:41:07 Seems to me that modularity comes from extra level of indirections, and the compiler is hardly ever clever enough to get away with those 19:44:15 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-066.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:46:48 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:47:06 sykopomp [~sykopomp@c-66-41-249-30.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:47:25 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@c-66-41-249-30.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 19:47:25 sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 19:48:49 -!- postamar [~postamar@x-132-204-34-3.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [Quit: postamar] 19:49:34 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 19:52:35 stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 19:53:03 aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #lisp 19:53:50 -!- lemonade` [~lemonade`@pool-71-178-51-180.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:53:57 lemonade` [~lemonade`@pool-71-178-51-180.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:54:55 -!- Edward_ [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-28-63.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:54:59 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-18-242.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 19:57:50 pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-49-182.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:58:26 -!- emacs-dwim [~user@cpe-67-249-221-115.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:58:43 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:59:17 emacs-dwim [~user@cpe-67-249-221-115.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:59:32 tcr: That statement specifically refers to the observation by Paul Wilson: "liveness is a global property" meaning without GC, you can't really write modular code. 20:00:20 On the other hand, you can write a garbage collector in C++, and restrict yourself to objects instanciated in such a way as they can be garbage collected with it. 20:00:35 I like Greenspun. 20:02:20 Has anyone tried a garbage collection scheme that works "in reverse", i.e. by keeping all strong references bidirectional, so that objects' liveness can be determined directly? 20:02:28 He was recently on national radio here in the USA, identified only as "a Boston-area helicopter instructor". 20:02:35 No mention at all of his tenth or other laws! 20:02:53 that's sort of cool :) 20:03:08 Xach: He has other laws? 20:05:33 wait, you have national radio in the USA? 20:05:38 upward [~upward@modemcable004.209-80-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 20:05:48 national public radio, even! 20:05:51 that sounds dangerously socialist 20:05:58 very much so 20:06:17 Xach: are you still looking for a minion for the quicklisp task ? 20:07:37 upward: kind of. 20:07:46 upward: join ##quicklisp if you'd like to talk about it 20:08:16 Alright 20:08:54 Krystof: it is known as NPR (National Public Radio), and yes, it is considered very dangerous to the political health of the citizens. 20:09:11 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 20:09:43 serichsen: What is that supposed to mean? 20:10:33 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@87.112.73.103.plusnet.ptn-ag2.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:11:29 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-132.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:11:46 beach: Garbage collection needs to answer the question "is this object needed any more?" 20:12:33 beach: Traditionally, this has been answered by going through all other objects, checking whether they need that object. 20:12:34 serichsen: I know that. What does it mean to "keep strong reference bidirectional"? 20:12:41 Joreji [~thomas@77-066.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 20:13:30 beach: My idea (although it is probably an "idée fixe") is to let an object know which other objects refer to it. 20:14:20 serichsen: But that might keep that object alive unnecessarily, because it can't know whether objects referring to it are themselves referred to. 20:14:36 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-215-37.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:14:36 Isn't NPR funded by the public (as opposed to the state) though? 20:14:41 pledge drives, and all that 20:14:48 oh, that may be the TV channel, actually 20:14:58 Krystof: it's paid for by a mix of private donations and government funding. it's opponents, and even some fans that don't agree with it's general slant on news, call it "National People's Radio", and not flatteringly 20:15:32 Adamant: ah, that's traditional; people have been claiming that the BBC has a left-wing bias since Thatcher 20:15:53 s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-205-100.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 20:15:57 (at the time, not actively worshipping the ground Thatcher walked on was how one identified a Communist) 20:15:59 rsynnott: I just listen to the classical and jazz bit 20:16:52 I think our state radio channels in Ireland are generally considered too boring to have any sort of bias 20:16:56 rsynnott: from my perspective, the BBC is clearly left-wing, if moderate left for Britain, but #lisp doesn't need political debate that doesn't involve parens 20:17:00 :P 20:17:07 "classical jazz"? Jazz from the Greek and Roman times? 20:17:14 heheh 20:17:18 lol 20:17:33 you have a tendency towards opening parens! 20:17:33 Jelly Rolly Victus Morton 20:17:57 gah, Roll 20:18:22 fiveop [~fiveop@erft-4d07f053.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 20:18:25 (ok, that sounded better in my head) 20:18:33 eh, wasn't bad 20:18:40 beach: Yes, but imagine how the garbage collector would work. It would walk through memory, looking for objects that are not being referred to. If it finds such an object, it will destroy it, and eliminate the references from it (also at the target object). 20:18:49 beach: That solves the acyclic case. 20:20:02 would have been better if I could somehow put in a reference to a crypto-mccarthyist opening paren agenda. 20:20:14 beach: For the cyclic case, there is an advantage in comparison to reference counts, namely that the cycle is followable. 20:20:56 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-066.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:21:07 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.57.94] has joined #lisp 20:21:21 serichsen: I am afraid I have no idea what you are talking about, and my GC knowledge is pretty much up to date. 20:21:49 beach: Sorry, then the fault is most likely on my side. :) 20:22:21 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@erft-4d07f053.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:22:48 serichsen: The GC determines that an object is alive by making sure it can be reached from some roots (usually registers and stack). I don't see how it is going to help thing to have objects point to other objects that refer to them. 20:23:44 holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 20:23:58 beach: every time a pointer is created, it would be registered in a (very big) global table 20:23:58 <_3b> serichsen: seems like that would use up a lot of space, and make it expensive to break links between objects 20:24:03 then GC would be very easy 20:25:01 serichsen: In fact, it is going to create memory leaks. Consider an object A referring to an object B, but A is not reachable by any application. By putting a reference to A in B you keep A alive (since B is alive) even though application code can't reach it. 20:25:05 beach: Yes. Now, the usual technique is to look from the roots. That requires to stop the world in some way, so that nothing keepworthy slips through the net. 20:26:02 beach: There would be a "to" and a "from" end in a reference. 20:26:12 serichsen: It definitely does *not* require the world to be stopped. There are techniques where the youngest generation is thread-specific. 20:26:32 fe[nl]ix: How is that remark related? 20:27:07 -!- ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-32-117-5.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire.] 20:27:39 serichsen: So how does it help things that the dead object A is referred to by B, and thus artificially being kept alive that way? 20:28:04 <_3b> beach: presumably the GC is smart enough not to treat the pointers created by the GC as keeping things alive :p 20:28:08 -!- legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-30-162.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:28:43 _3b: Presumably, yes, but wait! That's exactly what GC is about isn't it? 20:28:50 I'd like to actually setup a swank server for slime to connect to 20:29:02 and a remote one on my VPS. 20:29:08 Anyone with experience on the subject? 20:29:40 beach: When A is referencing B, there is a reference /from/ A /to/ B. B knows that it is referenced /from/ A, but A is not referenced /from/ B. 20:30:25 fe[nl]ix: iirc smalltalk 80 at had a global table of pointers 20:30:48 serichsen: How is "B knows that it is referenced from A" different from "A is not referenced from B"? 20:31:11 serichsen: And how does the GC exploit this difference? 20:31:22 nikodemus: lol. did it work well ? 20:31:29 but smalltalk has lots of craziness, like putting non-zero lowtags on fixnums and zero lowtags on pointers! 20:31:38 and using 0 for nil! 20:31:48 craziness! :) 20:32:30 fe[nl]ix: i'm pretty sure it did what it was supposed to do, but i've no idea if eg. squeak or other modern smalltalks do that 20:32:51 serichsen: I should have said: How is "B knows that it is referenced from A" different from "B refers to A". 20:33:25 legumbre [~leo@r190-135-34-46.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 20:33:33 beach: The first does not keep A alive. 20:34:02 serichsen: In other words, how does the GC exploit the fact that B knows that it is referenced by A.? 20:34:03 beach: Sorry for evolving this idea "live" here. The garbage collector would not start from the root objects, but from the object it is probing. 20:34:23 -!- lukego [~lukegorri@81-233-246-97-no37.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: lukego] 20:34:25 serichsen: Why would it be probing dead objects? 20:35:05 beach: It would simply walk the entire memory sequentially. 20:35:29 serichsen: That doesn't tell whether the object is dead or alive. 20:36:23 serichsen: My question was: what could be the benefit from having the GC probe an object that is dead? 20:37:00 beach: That it can destroy it? 20:37:28 serichsen: How does it know that it is dead? 20:37:48 beach: By following the references to it backwards. 20:38:04 serichsen: That's not the definition of dead. 20:38:21 beach: Sorry, telephone. I shall try to write this down in a more coherent manner. 20:38:53 serichsen: Again, if A refers to B, but A is dead, probing A might incorrectly keep A alive. 20:41:12 g'night 20:41:14 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:41:29 brnhack [~hrk@ntsitm087073.sitm.nt.ngn4.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 20:41:45 -!- brnhack [~hrk@ntsitm087073.sitm.nt.ngn4.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 20:42:18 rfg [~rfg@client-80-5-175-177.glw-bng-011.adsl.virginmedia.net] has joined #lisp 20:43:30 carlocci [~nes@93.37.209.39] has joined #lisp 20:46:04 Edward_ [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-17-54.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:46:45 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:47:25 I'm looking for a library that deals with dates (example transform from one (string) format to another dd/mm/yy to dd-mmm-yyyy etc) and to universal time). I can do transformation when needed but would be quicker if someone has already written something similar (recycling)... 20:49:52 minion: tell francogrex about local-time 20:49:53 francogrex: look at local-time: local-time is a development library for manipulating date and time information in a semi-standard manner. http://www.cliki.net/local-time 20:50:53 -!- kami [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:50:59 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:55:02 serichsen: Let's make this a bit more concrete. I do (defparameter *b* (make-instance ...)) then (defparameter *a* (make-instance ... :whatever *b*)). So know *a* refers to *b*. You suggest *b* refer to *a* as well, but now I do (setf *a* nil) so *a* no longer refers to *b*. What does your GC do when it encounters *b*? 20:56:32 thanks 20:56:37 serichsen: The object that used to be the value of *b* is now dead according to the agreed-upon definition of "dead", i.e., it cannot be referred to by application code. How does the GC know that when it encounters the object that is the value of *a*? 20:58:08 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-18-242.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:59:26 beach: (defclass reference () (from to)) 20:59:27 serichsen: Make that last thing: The object that used to be the value of *a* is now dead, according to agreed-upon definition of "dead", i.e., it cannot be referenced to by application code. How does the GC know that when it encounters the object that is the value of *b*? 20:59:48 serichsen: You are not answering my question. 21:00:32 beach: Sorry, I am still on telephone with my wife. 21:00:35 serichsen: The object that used to be the value if *a* is dead. How does the GC know that when referring to *a*. 21:02:37 rtra [~rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #lisp 21:03:02 serichsen: OK, while you are talking to your wife, let's make it even more concrete. You have a graph, and there is a node which is the value of *b*, obtained by doing (defparameter *b* (make-node ...)). 21:03:33 serichsen: Now we do (defparameter *a* (make-node ... :successors (list *b*))). 21:03:51 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:04:01 MagBo [~Sweater@87.246.131.149] has joined #lisp 21:04:39 serichsen: If I understand you correctly, now the object referred to by *b* would contain a back pointer to the object referred to by *a*, right? 21:06:32 serichsen: But now I do (setf *a* nil) so that the object that used to be referred to by *a* is no longer accessible by application code. Of course, the object referred to by *b* doesn't know that so it still contains a reference to the object that used to be the value of *a*. 21:07:22 Reav_ [~Sarge@h3f04.n1.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 21:08:03 serichsen: What happens to the (dead) object that used to be the value of *a* when the GC looks at the object referenced by *b*? 21:09:31 beach: (defclass object () (#|...|# references)) 21:09:42 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:09:52 fiveop [~fiveop@erft-4d07f053.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 21:10:58 serichsen: You really aren't addressing my questions? Is the object that used to be referred to by *a* alive? In which case you have a memory leak, or is it considered dead? In which case you have to tell me by what mechanism the GC is able to determine that. 21:11:01 beach: When the GC encounters the node that was named by *a*, it looks at the references that /end/ at it, doing a tree search on those until it encounters a root node. 21:11:28 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-115-236.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:11:43 beach: If it does not encounter a root node, it throws away all encountered objects. 21:11:45 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@erft-4d07f053.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:12:12 serichsen: So you are suggesting a quadratic algorithm to replace current linear ones? I.e., for each reference, search the entire object graph? 21:12:16 beach: The reference to *b* is irrelevant, because it is the wrong direction for that search. 21:13:23 beach: No, because the GC does not need to search the entire graph. It only needs to search the objects directly referred from, and those are stored with the target object. 21:13:53 serichsen: I am beginning to thing that you are seriously confused. I suggest you go read the Lins & Jones book and come back when you know a bit more. 21:14:24 serichsen: Your argument is equivalent to a circular definition of liveness. 21:14:49 beach: I think that you have some false preconception about my idea. I do not know which. 21:16:08 serichsen: Again, in my example, when the GC encounters the object that is the value of *b*, what does it do about the object that used to be the value of *b*, which it has a back pointer to? 21:17:11 serichsen: Does it consider it live? If so, you have a memory leak. If now, how does it know that it's dead? 21:17:20 beach: I think one of those names is meant to be *a*, no? 21:17:41 serichsen: Indeed. 21:18:02 serichsen: Again, in my example, when the GC encounters the object that is the value of *b*, what does it do about the object that used to be the value of *a*, which it has a back pointer to? 21:19:20 serichsen: The only way you can determine that it's dead is to search the entire object graph. If you do that, you have a quadratic algorithm. 21:19:32 seangrove [~user@c-71-198-44-87.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:20:04 <_3b> well, if you have back links, wouldn't you know as soon as you hit a dead object? 21:20:06 beach: No, because the object that used to be the value of *a* has itself a collection of all references that end in it. 21:20:29 <_3b> circlular links might require searching the entire graph though 21:20:31 _3b: You can't hit a dead object, because by definition, they can't be hit. 21:20:39 beach: If this collection is empty, it is dead. 21:20:40 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 21:21:00 <_3b> beach: you look at *b*, see a back link to *a*, see *a* has no back links, so *a* is dead 21:21:01 serichsen: so you don't handle circular references? 21:21:05 _3b: There are marking strategies for resolving circularities. 21:21:36 <_3b> beach: or just doing a linear search of the heap, see *a* is dead, then break the back link in *b* while collecting *a* 21:22:03 *_3b* still thinks it would be too expensive (in time and ram) to do the bookkeeping though 21:22:12 serichsen: You could have told us that you are advocating a reference-counting scheme. The Lins & Jones book probably has an entire chapter on that. 21:22:30 beach: No, explicitly not reference counting. 21:22:48 serichsen: Sure, but with a 1/0 reference count. 21:22:50 <_3b> beach: i think it is more 'exploring the problem space' than 'advocating' also 21:22:54 beach: My objects would know where their references come from, not just count them. 21:23:18 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.163.134] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:23:55 bandu [~coyotama@unaffiliated/bandu] has joined #lisp 21:24:16 serichsen: It sounds like a great idea! I suggest you write a paper on it and submit it to one of the conferences specialized in memory management. 21:24:31 beach: Oh come on. 21:25:14 (because when you do, you'll have to be specific about the details, and it will likely en up on my desk, and I'll be able to debunk it fairly quickly) 21:27:17 <_3b> beach: i think the original question was more 'would this work, and if not, why not' than an assertion that it would work 21:28:17 diwr [diwr@unaffiliated/diwr] has joined #lisp 21:28:17 _3b: Yes, thank you. 21:28:41 _3b: I am sure this is true, but the way this is usually done is for the person who claim that it works to write a proof that it does, which would then be reviewed by peers, as opposed to making vague statements in an IRC channel. 21:28:49 francogrex [~user@109.130.163.134] has joined #lisp 21:28:54 *beach* goes to bed. 21:28:59 <_3b> beach: that would require someone to claim it works though 21:29:12 beach: I am not a computer scientist. I just had an idea, and wanted to talk about it. 21:29:22 Before anyone goes to bed! :) Error: The form '(INTEGER 0 999999999) was not evaluated successfully. 21:29:25 <_3b> (and if someone has, that would answer the original question) 21:29:43 why? 21:29:54 <_3b> francogrex: because the code is broken? 21:30:12 <_3b> francogrex: random guess says you have an extra ' somewhere in a typespec that shouldn't be there 21:30:18 Apiman [~aitor@89.130.203.127] has joined #lisp 21:30:34 <_3b> not a very useful error message either way though 21:31:40 that's the part of the code: (push `(type (integer 0 999999999) ,nsec) types) 21:31:55 -!- bandu is now known as coyo 21:32:28 In the same vein as funcallable in the MOP, is there something that would allow a class to be the equivalent of a variable symbol? 21:32:56 hmm there is no function (integer... is there? 21:33:10 built in i mean 21:33:35 me345 [~me345@adsl-75-15-177-134.dsl.bkfd14.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:34:35 <_3b> INTEGER is just a type 21:34:47 <_3b> or 'system class' i guess 21:35:12 <_3b> what do you do with TYPES? 21:35:20 _3b: yes sorry