17:26:18 ccl-logbot [n=ccl-logb@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 17:26:18 17:26:18 -!- names: ccl-logbot marcoecc phadthai_ knobo grouzen balooga spradnyesh dnolen xinming gigamonkey stassats` alley_cat retroj araujo Adamant timor wakeup mattrepl addled1 Odin- ikki Guthur abeaumont parolang Sumpen lusory unicode prxq Alabaman Hun madnificent opt9` stepnem Edward__ cmeow Helheim dcrawford clop bfein kejsaren tychoish kefka morphling bobrown` herbieB_ konr jleija ThomasI Jasko Kenjin sepult bdowning ryepup billstclair sellout carlocci 17:26:18 -!- names: LiamH kpreid TDT dv_ qeb`away ski dlowe lukjad007 legumbre c|mell Jabberwockey splittist billitch osaunders potatishandlarn CrazyEddy ignas freiksenet silenius bill` blackened` Axioplase_ spoofy bittin| Nshag levente_meszaros reprore rdd daniel dmiles_afk djinni` Edico fiveop varjag seangrove attila_lendvai mishoo_ tcr mvilleneuve eno G0SUB pbusser |Soulman| galaxywatcher Madsy Demosthenes coyo lpolzer__ Sukoshi`` Modius pjb Dra`vi sledge 17:26:18 -!- names: keltor srcerer benny Xantoz TR2N chiiph lukego phadthai ams ASau Raptelan wlr xenosoz2 newfurniturey bipt jsoft adeht TJohn ennen fractali` antifuchs hypno rahul mgr moesenle nasloc__ swilde amaron hoeq hicx174 Fufie Adrinael emma lnostdal fgtech s0ber koning_robot skeptical_p ace4016 smithzv AntiSpamMeta thijso boyscared _3b` sytse retupmoca re-l nuba blast_hardcheese Yamazaki-kun kleppari danderson yahooooo schme partisan rsynnott cmatei 17:26:18 -!- names: mrSpec dfox nowhere_man neaer dto kiuma fihi09 Ri-|away whoppix drwho Taggnostr svaksha Wraithan spn mathrick ivan4th Holcxjo jamesstanley Intensity UnwashedMeme1 hohum tsuru mornfall prip weirdo chii lemoinem housel hdurer l_a_m ve kingdon p_l bunz setheus xristos Ginei_Morioka KatrinaTheLamia specbot Buganini nullman joshe minion yacin DrForr ramus Khisanth j0ni dym guaq_ _3b cupe ianmcorvidae REPLeffect_ cataska Patzy _deepfire Orest^bnc 17:26:18 -!- names: peterwang rootzlevel malsyned lichtblau jyujin ud mikezor spacebat_ xan sykopomp alexbobp Pepe_ fnordus borism tvaalen dalkvist wgl tltstc PuffTheMagic mle BrianRice manituuuu Xach kuwabara2 skeptomai|away felipe cpt_nemo defn djm cods rey_ gz kencausey anekos derefed aja frodef foom easyE erg nicktastic rbancroft Ober egn froydnj mtd Tordek Fade tic Soulman ecraven z0d EwS reb lupine_85 PissedNumlock rotty_ Tristam clog sjbach rullie wasabi___ 17:26:18 -!- names: joast pkhuong franki^ koollman lharc Legoolas Xof foom2 ironChicken p8m zbigniew pragma_ joga peddie guaqua Zhivago pok krappie dostoyevsky scode luis ineiros guenthr rlonstein ``Erik rapacity jsnell johs aking tarbo codemonkeyx bakkdoor Borbus 17:26:48 lukego: Many in #lisp are using it. Personally, I think libraries should try to minimize dependencies; "applications" should use whatever it takes to get the stuff done 17:27:07 tcr: yes. 17:27:13 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 17:27:14 sounds reasonable 17:27:25 it does seem like "everybody" is using alexandria these days. 17:27:47 but then 'everybody' was using darcs 17:27:58 lukego: For my own libraries, I just copy the ~5 utils I need from alexandria into a utils.lisp and be done with it. 17:28:15 Well I don't have darcs installed, but I do have alexandria installed. :p 17:28:16 splittist: right, which is interesting. It was known that it could just hang forever. 17:29:03 why such a bug was not considered critical is somewhat surprising, imo 17:29:23 s/why/that/ 17:29:27 tcr, that reminds me about the next big thing in version control and "library" management, namely doing it on a much fine grained level 17:30:04 -!- phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:30:09 *prxq* also fell for the "oh that rarely happens" line 17:30:22 The thing that I find somewhat irritating about libraries like alexandria is that since they aren't part of the lisp impl, they don't get the implementation-specific efficiency work done. 17:30:27 -!- hoeq [n=hoeq@h-66-64.A216.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit ["leaving"] 17:30:42 hoeq [n=hoeq@h-66-64.A216.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 17:30:43 But that's probably just me. :) 17:32:02 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 17:32:21 ah! ccl::array-data-and-offset...just what I wanted 17:32:38 -!- osaunders [n=osaunder@89.242.213.116] has left #lisp 17:33:49 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 17:34:05 redline6561 [n=redline@adsl-065-013-015-097.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 17:34:46 dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 17:35:10 my slime does not seem to have the ,load-system command. what do i need to do? 17:35:22 load slime-asdf contrib 17:35:41 thanks! 17:36:39 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 17:39:28 -!- dv_ [n=dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 17:39:44 gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:40:19 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [] 17:41:57 Dawgmatix [n=dman@c-76-124-8-39.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:45:15 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 17:47:34 http://common-lisp.net/project/rfc2388/ 17:47:42 whats 17:47:52 :( 17:47:55 ? 17:48:54 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Client Quit] 17:49:06 -!- parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:49:45 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 17:49:56 wakeup: typical values should be the two mentioned in the sentence right before the code 17:50:01 sayyestolife [n=jot_n@h-60-147.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 17:50:01 ah 17:50:12 vo 17:50:13 no 17:50:16 I dont think so 17:50:51 this doesnt even make sense 17:51:09 how the hell should parse-header know what where to parse 17:51:59 plus it does not work for me 17:52:40 ruediger [n=quassel@188-23-187-25.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 17:53:39 Have you watched the SICP lectures? There are the original ones (http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures/) and another set from Berkeley (http://academicearth.org/lectures/functional-programming-i) and I wonder if any of them is much better than the other 17:53:54 take the original ones they're just great 17:54:11 it's the authors of the book 17:56:27 <_3b> wakeup: looks like it should be (the contents of?) the content-type header 17:57:57 -!- Edward__ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-56-202.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:58:09 Edward [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-56-202.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:59:40 _3b: only thing I got, is a stream (stdin) 18:01:11 well, does that stream have anything in it that looks like "multipart/form-data; boundary=foo" then? 18:01:47 I cant say for sure, but I hope so 18:01:49 well 18:01:56 maybe I should just check it out 18:02:09 <_3b> seems like you should be looking at pasring headers first then 18:02:24 <_3b> (or finding an already written library to deal with all this stuff for you) 18:02:55 well, rfc2388 _is_ the library that parses the headers. From a string or a stream. 18:03:10 ECL comes with serve-event, but that its IO operation is not based on it 18:03:10 this 18:03:25 <_3b> ah, from the docs i thought it just parsed post bodies or something 18:03:26 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:03:29 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:03:43 so I'm not looking for the right place where SWANK would have to manually call serve-all-events 18:05:59 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:06:14 how do I print out *standard-input*? 18:06:38 (print *standard-input*)? 18:07:10 nope thats not it ;) 18:07:24 that definitely prints *standard-input*. 18:07:41 whatever :) 18:07:43 When are events implicitly served in SBCL? 18:07:50 <_3b> maybe he wanted (print "*standard-input*") ? 18:07:53 tcr: freaking everywhere 18:08:00 tcr: (what a pain in the ass.) 18:08:23 foom: not in sleep :-) 18:08:37 I'd appreciate any comment in that thread, btw 18:08:37 no I want to see whats in stdin 18:08:53 which thread? 18:09:08 foom: "deadlines, *periodic-polling-function*, sbcl-devel, few hours ago 18:09:15 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 18:09:32 ah, so you want to _read_ from *standard-input*. 18:09:39 yep 18:09:49 and print its contents 18:10:22 oh. 18:10:31 I forget how deadlines work. do they not use a signal? 18:10:33 SandGorgon_ [n=OmNomNom@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 18:10:59 They do. but it's not about deadlines (anymore) but serve-event 18:11:18 well, but, if they do, then open should be interruptible with a signal. 18:12:14 foom: Deadlines are explicit-computed timeouts, not async signals 18:12:20 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-252-1-29-106.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:12:48 foom: but I referred to my very first mail, not the stuff about named pipes 18:12:50 -!- Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:14:16 *tcr* bbl (~30min) 18:15:32 blygiss [n=jot_n@h-60-147.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 18:17:30 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-27-180.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:19:15 -!- marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:20:37 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:21:29 snearch_ [n=olaf@e179143031.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:22:51 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:25:39 -!- sayyestolife [n=jot_n@h-60-147.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:26:16 ok I'm ready to end my day with the usual ritual chanting of "okay NOW linux can't have any surprises left for me" 18:26:20 soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has joined #lisp 18:27:19 Ragnaroek [n=chatzill@p54A64820.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:25 -!- blygiss is now known as sayyestolife 18:28:41 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@193.174.12.194] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:32:45 *Xach* is a little sad his phrase search data structure took 3x more memory than he expected 18:33:01 Xach: :( why? 18:33:52 kenanb [n=kenanb@88.238.42.177] has joined #lisp 18:34:00 -!- snearch_ [n=olaf@e179143031.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 18:34:02 Xach: what's your current method? 18:34:11 snearch_ [n=olaf@e179143031.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:34:15 -!- snearch_ [n=olaf@e179143031.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Client Quit] 18:35:06 *splittist* is v interested in text search/information extraction at the moment... 18:35:13 each document gets a vector of term ids as they appear in the document, a sorted vector of unique term ids, and (corresponding to the last bit) a vector of vectors of term occurrence positions. i musta carried a two somewhere i shouldn'ta. 18:36:10 there are 1.7M terms 18:36:19 it's taking up maybe 40MB in memory though. 18:36:49 is it really faster/simpler than just shoving it through cl-ppcre or cl-irregsexp? 18:37:28 pkhuong: It's pretty fast. I haven't tried using those to compare. 18:37:43 Xach: are they stemmed or just unique words? 18:37:45 It's not simpler. 18:38:09 guaqua: "stemmed" is to charitable a word for what i do to clean up the words. but they are cleaned up a little. 18:38:14 too charitable, rather 18:38:42 you could say 'normalized' then, i guess :) 18:38:55 pkhuong: loading all the text of all the articles in memory would take up more space, i think, and leaving it on disk would take a lot of i/o. i'm happy with the current memory/speed tradeoff. 18:39:20 mmap ;) 18:40:05 saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:40:40 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 18:40:43 -!- malsyned [n=malsyned@adsl-75-35-185-146.dsl.wlfrct.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:41:54 if i was going to mmap something, i'd probably mmap the index structure instead of the raw articles. 18:42:57 *Xach* will add some kind of excerpt next 18:43:01 do you serialize the data in some way? 18:43:10 err, index 18:43:19 guaqua: yes. 18:43:21 -!- kenanb [n=kenanb@88.238.42.177] has left #lisp 18:43:44 Xach: related entries maybe? 18:43:49 well, mmapping is just quick serialization method then, i guess 18:44:26 foom: So I'm wrong in expecting an invocation of sleep to have my event handlers run? 18:44:37 pkhuong: that would be interesting, too 18:45:45 can I post to sbcl-general without subscribing? 18:46:41 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 18:46:43 -!- retroj [n=retroj@pdpc/supporter/active/retroj] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 18:47:09 retroj [n=retroj@pdpc/supporter/active/retroj] has joined #lisp 18:49:09 -!- SandGorgon_ [n=OmNomNom@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:49:45 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-pmpvukuryctfemvn] has joined #lisp 18:50:47 snearch_ [n=olaf@e179143031.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:51:41 -!- snearch_ 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[Firefox 3.5.7/20091221151141]"] 19:06:03 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:06:06 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.71.134] has left #lisp 19:08:24 -!- Edward [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-56-202.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["L'oignon fait la farce."] 19:09:33 rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-120-122.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:47:21 ccl-logbot [n=ccl-logb@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 08:47:21 08:47:21 -!- names: ccl-logbot stepnem bdowning mathrick Soulman ASau` Ralith mishoo_ smackarang Dodek splittist mvilleneuve Borbus bakkdoor codemonkeyx tarbo aking johs jsnell rapacity ``Erik rlonstein guenthr ineiros luis scode krappie pok Zhivago guaqua peddie joga pragma_ zbigniew p8m ironChicken Xof Legoolas lharc franki^ pkhuong joast wasabi___ rullie sjbach clog Tristam rotty_ PissedNumlock lupine_85 EwS z0d ecraven tic Fade mtd froydnj egn rbancroft 08:47:21 -!- names: nicktastic erg aja skeptomai|away kuwabara2 Xach manituuuu BrianRice mle PuffTheMagic tvaalen Pepe_ sykopomp mikezor ud jyujin lichtblau Orest^bnc prip Intensity jamesstanley Wraithan drwho skeptical_p Adrinael nasloc__ mgr hypno jsoft newfurniturey Raptelan ASau chiiph Xantoz Dra`vi dmiles_afk daniel Axioplase_ bill` ski qeb`away opt9` lusory phadthai b4|hraban lukego ignas foom2 Aisling antoszka sleepydog Stattrav dostoyev1ky koollman benny 08:47:21 -!- names: legumbre xenosoz2 dnm_ sepult Modius slyrus balooga jrockway Ober potatishandlarn spradnyesh peterwang tmh Adlai GrayGnome` Soulman__ addled Spaghettini abeaumont wlr galaxywatcher plage Khisanth OmniMancer1 konr lpolzer_ ace4016 Phoodus oconnore_ huangjs kpreid wakeup^ araujo billitch prxq arbscht stoop tsuru QinGW Tordek spacebat stassats redline6561 hicx174 p_l fe[nl]ix sellout madnificent a-s lisppaste Nshag Jasko plan9 reb raison TR2N 08:47:21 -!- names: plutonas svaksha saikatc hoeq knobo xinming Adamant ikki cmeow Helheim dcrawford clop bfein tychoish kefka herbieB_ ryepup billstclair lukjad007 CrazyEddy spoofy rdd djinni` varjag eno G0SUB Madsy Demosthenes pjb sledge keltor srcerer ams bipt TJohn ennen antifuchs rahul moesenle swilde Fufie emma lnostdal fgtech s0ber koning_robot smithzv AntiSpamMeta thijso boyscared _3b` sytse retupmoca re-l nuba blast_hardcheese Yamazaki-kun kleppari 08:47:21 -!- names: danderson yahooooo schme rsynnott spec[away] dfox nowhere_man neaer dto fihi09 Ri-|away whoppix Taggnostr spn ivan4th Holcxjo hohum mornfall weirdo frodef foom easyE derefed anekos kencausey gz rey_ cods djm defn cpt_nemo felipe tltstc dalkvist borism fnordus alexbobp xan rootzlevel _deepfire Patzy cataska REPLeffect_ ianmcorvidae cupe _3b guaq_ dym j0ni ramus DrForr yacin minion joshe nullman Buganini specbot KatrinaTheLamia Ginei_Morioka 08:47:21 -!- names: xristos bunz kingdon chii lemoinem housel hdurer l_a_m ve 08:47:24 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 08:47:41 <_deepfire> I follow, yes.. 08:49:56 If we think of new defuns and so on as being appended to the environment, then that's a 'higher environment' than the b 10 environment. 08:49:57 So, instead of doing that, what you could do is to remember the environment where you would have done the defun. 08:49:57 And then enter into that environment again where you would have done a function call, added the parameters into the environment, then expanded what would have been the body of the function out. 08:49:58 And that would be equivalent to doing a function call. 08:49:59 The main difference is that recursive functions would become infinitely large expansions. 08:50:13 ccl-logbot [n=ccl-logb@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 08:50:13 08:50:13 -!- names: ccl-logbot Athas stepnem bdowning mathrick Soulman ASau` Ralith mishoo_ smackarang Dodek splittist frodef foom easyE derefed anekos kencausey gz rey_ cods djm defn cpt_nemo felipe tltstc dalkvist borism fnordus alexbobp xan rootzlevel _deepfire Patzy cataska REPLeffect_ ianmcorvidae cupe _3b guaq_ dym j0ni ramus DrForr yacin minion joshe nullman Buganini specbot KatrinaTheLamia Ginei_Morioka xristos bunz kingdon ve l_a_m hdurer housel lemoinem 08:50:13 -!- names: chii weirdo mornfall hohum Holcxjo ivan4th spn Taggnostr whoppix Ri-|away fihi09 dto neaer nowhere_man dfox spec[away] rsynnott schme yahooooo danderson kleppari Yamazaki-kun blast_hardcheese nuba re-l retupmoca sytse _3b` boyscared thijso AntiSpamMeta smithzv koning_robot s0ber fgtech lnostdal emma Fufie swilde moesenle rahul antifuchs ennen TJohn bipt ams srcerer keltor sledge pjb Demosthenes Madsy G0SUB eno varjag djinni` rdd spoofy CrazyEddy 08:50:13 -!- names: lukjad007 billstclair ryepup herbieB_ kefka tychoish bfein clop dcrawford Helheim cmeow ikki Adamant xinming knobo hoeq saikatc svaksha plutonas TR2N raison reb plan9 Jasko Nshag lisppaste a-s madnificent sellout fe[nl]ix p_l hicx174 redline6561 stassats spacebat Tordek QinGW tsuru stoop arbscht prxq billitch araujo wakeup^ kpreid huangjs oconnore_ Phoodus ace4016 lpolzer_ konr OmniMancer1 Khisanth plage galaxywatcher wlr abeaumont Spaghettini 08:50:13 -!- names: addled Soulman__ GrayGnome` Adlai mvilleneuve tmh peterwang spradnyesh potatishandlarn Ober jrockway balooga slyrus Modius sepult dnm_ xenosoz2 legumbre benny koollman dostoyev1ky Stattrav sleepydog antoszka Aisling foom2 ignas lukego b4|hraban phadthai lusory opt9` qeb`away ski bill` Axioplase_ daniel dmiles_afk Dra`vi Xantoz chiiph ASau Raptelan newfurniturey jsoft hypno mgr nasloc__ Adrinael skeptical_p drwho Wraithan jamesstanley Intensity 08:50:13 -!- names: prip Orest^bnc lichtblau jyujin ud mikezor sykopomp Pepe_ tvaalen PuffTheMagic mle BrianRice manituuuu Xach kuwabara2 skeptomai|away aja erg nicktastic rbancroft egn froydnj mtd Fade tic ecraven z0d EwS lupine_85 PissedNumlock rotty_ Tristam clog sjbach rullie wasabi___ joast pkhuong franki^ lharc Legoolas Xof ironChicken Borbus bakkdoor codemonkeyx tarbo aking johs jsnell rapacity ``Erik rlonstein guenthr ineiros luis scode krappie pok Zhivago 08:50:13 -!- names: guaqua peddie joga pragma_ zbigniew p8m 08:50:16 But, you could do beta abstraction in the compiler and have the compiler figure out where to generate functions. 08:50:55 However without being able to say "I am dropping back to a higher environment" in many cases it wouldn't be able to do this easily. 08:51:03 <_deepfire> I.e. let the compiler itself decide at which points of dynamic contours to draw function boundaries? 08:51:07 Yes. 08:51:37 Well, not sure that dynamic contour is right. 08:51:59 Lexical contour is probably more correct. 08:53:08 <_deepfire> That sure sounds like a more generic approach in terms of implementation. 08:53:08 <_deepfire> But what does it offer in terms of abstraction? I think I have a feeling, but not much more than just that.. 08:53:24 <_deepfire> (By the way, I think I saw a related paper referenced on LtU) 08:53:30 Well, I have been pondering 'what does it mean to be lisp'? 08:53:36 Do you remember the title? 08:53:48 -!- TR2N [i=email@89-180-188-135.net.novis.pt] has left #lisp 08:53:50 Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp121-45-54-127.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:54:02 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f75514b.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:54:08 So far my best answer is 'everything is (potentially) a cut point' (in AoP terms). 08:54:28 mathrick, working on the bus to Italy (or rather, Malmö as the first stop) w/ my netbook and a 3G dongle. Remoting in to my work computer. Yay for screen. 08:55:11 <_deepfire> It was a long time ago, so no, but I sort-of remember the idea -- whole program optimisation which considers the global dynamic contours for the purposes of inlining/optimisation. 08:55:26 tic: oh, I see 08:55:27 freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 08:55:38 <_deepfire> I may still be able to find it.. 08:55:55 deepfire: Sounds interesting. If you do find it, please let me know. 08:58:45 Edward [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-65-128.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:58:45 _deepfire, Zhivago: that sounds like the opposite of what I'm pondering, how to take a LispOS and introduce modularisation, sandboxing, process separation etc., without losing what makes it a LispOS 08:58:52 deepfire: Anyhow, in my case I thought "wouldn't it be interesting to go back to the start of lisp when they wanted to do everything by substitution rather than application." 08:59:01 mstevens [n=mstevens@eris.etla.org] has joined #lisp 08:59:14 so that, if you really want, you can redefine the builtin bits, but in a way that makes it impossible to wedge your system 08:59:18 *accidentally 08:59:32 mathrick: Sounds like re-inventing unix. 08:59:47 Stick everything into virtual machines and connect with pipes. :) 08:59:51 Zhivago: except that unix has really poor primitives to work with 09:00:12 Lisp machines connected with pipes would be nice. 09:00:14 yeah, I can't find /bin/car 09:00:20 "bytestream" is such a low level of abstraction that it's impossible to get anything less crappy than /bin/sh 09:00:42 It's only impossible due to the lack of metadata support. 09:00:57 that's the level of abstraction 09:01:01 Telnet has some useful lessons here. 09:01:15 every abstraction you can think of has to be represent in terms of bytes eventually 09:01:22 it's all about metadata you have added 09:01:27 <_deepfire> Zhivago, "A Framework for Unrestricted Whole-Program Optimization" by Triantafyllis, Bridges, Raman, Ottoni and August 09:01:44 ohh, LispOS. Interesting. How many attempts are there now? :-) 09:02:09 Zhivago: but in essence, yeah, I'd like to have something that is as good as real LispM's, but doesn't lose the good bits of Unix 09:02:10 mathrick: Yes, but there are certain conventions that you can make obligatory. 09:02:14 I can't remember plage's attempt at a portable CL runtime, but that might be a good starting point. 09:02:16 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 09:02:23 tic: oh? 09:02:35 mathrick: With telnet they escape from the box by having a meta-protocol for negotiating capabilities. 09:02:39 plage: can I have a link for that? 09:02:48 mathrick, it's a word play, but I can't really not remember the name. 09:02:53 and I turned off my home computer. 09:02:57 mathrick: If you were to do something even simpler, like force every pipe to start in a capability negotiation ... 09:03:15 Zhivago: that's not the part I really think about 09:03:17 Ah, procedure boundary elimination. 09:03:21 Lovely :) 09:03:46 deepfire: Thanks, but I have access. :) 09:03:47 I was thinking of "how to retain the traditional image-centric environment of Lisp without giving up the resilience of sandboxed processes" 09:04:10 because you want to be able to modify bits and pieces when you want to modify them 09:04:44 Why image centric? 09:05:08 but also having to reboot because you happened to DEFCLASS something stupid while writing code is not what I'd expect from my OS 09:05:35 Zhivago: because Lisps aren't just compilers spitting out binaries 09:05:35 they center on the image, which is where the implementation and the client code can talk to each other and interact 09:05:45 that's a much richer model than "spit out an .o" 09:06:01 Sounds like 'process centric' in unix terms. 09:06:32 Zhivago: that's the point, there are no "processes" inside the current implementations' images 09:07:10 And there shouldn't be. 09:07:12 if I load hunchentoot into my SBCL, and then something else, they will have ample possibilities to step onto each other's toes 09:07:16 The images should be inside the processes. :) 09:07:27 Since the processes are virtual machines. 09:07:59 Zhivago: ćh, you pick one particular implementation and then jump to "this is the only possible solution and also the definition of the problem" 09:08:03 -!- chiiph [n=chiiph@190.1.21.180] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6.3"] 09:08:14 I don't know if they have to be VMs communicating with pipes 09:08:28 I think that they do, ultimately. 09:08:35 But pipes come in different sizes. 09:08:39 the image would be the OS environment 09:08:51 so if you modified the image itself, every process would see the result 09:09:05 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 09:09:05 but if you only did something within the process sandbox, it'd be localised 09:09:25 Sounds like shared memory. :) 09:09:59 Axius [n=oijhif@92.82.70.85] has joined #lisp 09:10:02 obviously, at some level it'd be shared 09:10:05 mathrick, http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/SICL/sicl.git ! 09:11:27 but the problem is, I haven't seen any sensible model, or even attempt at creating one, of making LispMs that aren't an invitation to be hacked 09:11:27 -!- plage [n=user@113.161.70.106] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:11:27 there's a pdf somewhere, I think at .../SICL/sicl.pdf 09:11:33 mathrick: you know, it could work very well with L4's "Address Spaces"... 09:12:05 levente_meszaros [n=levente_@apn-94-44-31-178.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 09:12:59 p_l: possibly, but still there's nothing I'm aware of where someone'd have tried to produce a coherent model (or maybe even implementation!) to start from 09:12:59 mathrick: Well, the problem is that you need to have protocols for communicating with the objects in the shared memory in order to respect their invariants. 09:12:59 mathrick: The simplest way to do that is to ... use a pipe :) 09:13:00 mathrick: But that doesn't need to be a pipe of bytes 09:13:07 amaron [n=amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 09:13:34 I should read the W7 paper to the end one day 09:14:42 it needs quite strict limits and some limits on how you can hack the central parts of the underlying lisp 09:14:56 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-hydlrzaaizywinav] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:15:06 Nah, it just needs you to talk to the underlying lisp and ask it nicely to modify itself. 09:15:07 means to guarantee stability 09:15:12 Then you can negotiate. 09:17:08 a proper security system would take care of that, but that's only the limitations part taken care of. You need the opposite, sharing, to work somehow too 09:17:08 i guess stability of interfaces is not that much of a technical thing as cultural and developmental 09:17:08 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:17:09 p_l: is there any paper about these address spaces? 09:17:50 guaqua: it's very important though, at least for me 09:18:24 if something is to be learnt from the PC revolution, it's that every successful idea will eventually have a larger audience than it bargained for 09:18:44 so you need things that scale to larger numbers before they collapse 09:19:30 stable interfaces are #1 or close to in making it happen 09:19:50 mathrick: or require endless contortions on the part of users forever cf Make 09:20:06 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-26-177.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:20:37 splittist: sure, but it's probably still better than making endless contortions to distribute the changes to everyone affected 09:20:55 and good interfaces can minimise this 09:21:44 tic: damn, I can't see that paper anywhere 09:22:28 wait, I fix. 09:22:56 It's directly under strandh, says irssi. 09:23:11 yeah, just googled that out 09:24:06 somecodehere [n=ingvar@77-233-95-4.televork.ee] has joined #lisp 09:25:40 mathrick: important, but if solved through technical means it might make it too rigid to get it flying 09:25:58 or too rigid to get it flying without extensive industry backing :) 09:27:18 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-79-119-35.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 09:28:50 "stable" at this point means "possible to define in a way that provides some notion of stability" as well as "built into the culture from the beginning" 09:28:51 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@eris.etla.org] has quit ["leaving"] 09:28:52 not "stable" as in "defined on pp. 194-196 of the first edition" 09:28:52 <_deepfire> Zhivago, the point is, I guess, that unless you have process boundary separation you can always SB-SYS:SAP-REF-* your way around any restrictions. 09:29:11 yup 09:29:22 and I'm SO not implementing a C runtime on top of such an OS 09:30:57 -!- oconnore_ [n=oconnore@c-24-61-119-4.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:31:30 mathrick: yes, it's better that way 09:31:32 kingdon_ [i=yebyen@irie-arch.rit.edu] has joined #lisp 09:31:38 FullMetalHarlot [n=root13@li130-87.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 09:31:38 emma_ [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 09:31:42 Carnegie [n=nn@studio25.org] has joined #lisp 09:31:42 -!- rahul [n=rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Broken pipe] 09:31:43 -!- kingdon [i=yebyen@irie-arch.rit.edu] has quit [Broken pipe] 09:31:43 -!- hohum [i=dcorbe@apollo.corbe.net] has quit [Broken pipe] 09:31:43 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Success] 09:31:43 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-170-198.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Broken pipe] 09:31:43 -!- ennen [n=nn@studio25.org] has quit [Broken pipe] 09:31:43 -!- KatrinaTheLamia [n=root13@li130-87.members.linode.com] has quit [Broken pipe] 09:31:43 s0ber_ [n=s0ber@118-160-170-198.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 09:31:45 ragnul [n=rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 09:32:23 hohum [i=dcorbe@apollo.corbe.net] has joined #lisp 09:33:04 anair_84 [n=anair_84@ip68-108-251-45.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 09:36:01 hmm, I guess the above was rather ambiguous 09:36:01 "such an OS" == without process boundaries now 09:37:10 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.166.152.212] has joined #lisp 09:41:01 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:41:47 -!- hoeq [n=hoeq@h-66-64.A216.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit ["leaving"] 09:42:01 hoeq [n=hoeq@h-66-64.A216.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 09:43:51 beaumonta [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 09:47:25 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:47:42 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined 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[n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 10:06:07 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-79-119-35.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:06:08 -!- smackarang [n=user@91.190.137.236] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:06:09 pjb [n=t@101.Red-88-30-120.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:07:39 -!- Edward [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-65-128.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:09:23 mathrick: read L4 documentation, for an implementation/version that uses the later process/thread API. But it boils down to the fact that L4 Address Spaces are hierarchical, so implementing a shared master image + per-process sub-images wouldn't be that hard 10:11:12 -!- Axius [n=oijhif@92.82.70.85] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:12:02 saba_ [n=saba@94.136.88.17] has joined #lisp 10:13:42 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-195-94-7.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:15:45 mathrick: the whole process structure in L4 is actually a tree (not a graph unless you tweak it a little in upper node), and instead of "processes" it has "Address Spaces" and "threads" 10:16:20 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:16:45 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f75514b.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:17:01 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f75514b.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 10:19:56 as_ [i=as@118-160-172-107.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 10:20:07 -!- ams [n=ams@94.246.125.191] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1"] 10:21:02 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f75514b.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:21:27 s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-170-196.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 10:24:20 -!- FufieToo [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:25:45 -!- TJohn [i=as@118-160-172-107.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:27:33 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:28:01 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-92-195-41-30.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:28:11 -!- rdd` is now known as rdd 10:29:27 attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-89-223-130-218.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 10:29:42 Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has joined #lisp 10:31:10 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:35:21 pbusser [n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 10:36:55 -!- s0ber_ [n=s0ber@118-160-170-198.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:37:48 -!- nowhere_man [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:38:30 Axius [n=oijhif@92.82.70.85] has joined #lisp 10:41:24 -!- konr`` [n=user@189.96.104.228] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:41:55 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 10:45:55 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.166.152.212] has left #lisp 10:49:38 this deadlocks (with-compilation-unit () (trivial-shell:shell-command "ls")) 10:49:57 just after loading trivial-shell 10:50:23 I think this is due to some PCL cache due to a generic function used in reading the standard output 10:50:29 done in a separate thread 10:50:34 billitch_ [n=billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 10:50:39 how would you fix that/ 10:50:41 ? 10:51:10 -!- billitch [n=billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:51:10 -!- billitch_ is now known as billitch 10:53:10 ASDF wraps operate in a with-compilation-unit 10:53:43 that effectively means that you can't call trivial-shell:shell-command from asdf:test-op 10:53:59 because it would deadlock (this is SBCL) 10:54:24 any idea? 10:55:29 the best I could come up so far is run (trivial-shell:shell-command "") before asdf:operate so PCL caches become up to date 10:58:04 -!- m4dnificent is now known as madnificent 10:58:45 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:58:51 but that is quite fragile 10:59:51 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 11:01:38 levente_meszaros: looks like an evil hack 11:01:41 nowhere_man [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 11:02:55 -!- unicode [n=user@95.214.52.56] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 11:03:24 madnificent, yes, but what else can I do? 11:04:27 unicode [n=user@95.214.52.56] has joined #lisp 11:06:39 I think ASDF is generally broken in that WITH-COMPILATION-UNIT wraps all PERFORM calls independently of the operation 11:10:06 levente_meszaros: the proper fix is to make the compiler vaguely threadsafe 11:10:07 kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 11:10:42 -!- Axius [n=oijhif@92.82.70.85] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:11:48 Krystof, that would certainly fix this, but unfortunately not going to happen soon... 11:12:12 I still think that ASDF is broken wrt to the above 11:14:20 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:14:46 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:15:06 levente_meszaros: I don't know how hard it is to make the compiler threadsafe 11:15:10 it would fix a whole heap of things, though 11:15:19 and it's probably not /that/ hard 11:15:49 I'd suggest asking nikodemus for an estimate 11:16:24 FufieToo [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 11:16:44 Krystof, I'm not experienced enough to fix the compiler and I guess Nikodemus has other things to do 11:17:26 I think I will need to find another workaround or just use that broken one above 11:17:45 hey wow I had a blog post cited in #lisp :) 11:19:22 levente_meszaros: if nikodemus doesn't get requests, he doesn't know what to prioritise 11:20:12 Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has joined #lisp 11:21:53 SBCL knowledgeable peoples: any idea how hard it'd be to update http://jsnell.iki.fi/blog/archive/2005-07-06.html to work with a modern SBCL? Ie. aside from the fact that SHAKE-LISP-AND-DIE obviously doesn't work right now, have the internals changed in a way that'd make it dramatically harder, or is it just a matter of tracking what the features are called right now and updating the references? 11:22:51 levente_meszaros: the with-compilation-unit around every operation is annoying, yes: https://bugs.launchpad.net/asdf/+bug/507378 11:23:14 I don't need it to be very good at all, if it can get me a starting image at 11MB instead of 40MB, I'm very happy already 11:24:58 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:27:39 what about stuff like bzexe, mathrick ? .. i have a large core that goes from 80MB to 13MB her 11:28:05 here* 11:28:08 lnostdal: I tried one of these before, SBCL didn't like it at all 11:28:42 hm, works here 11:28:49 but still I planned to apply compression afterwards, I just wanted to start with a smaller thing to compress :) 11:28:56 but yeah, i recall one of the compressable-executable thingies not working 11:29:20 (upx did not work IIRC) 11:30:48 I think that was upx 11:38:44 -!- mishoo_ [n=mishoo@79.112.112.195] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:44:11 marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has joined #lisp 11:47:27 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 11:47:30 lukego: you climate coward! 11:48:24 -!- beaumonta [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:49:40 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 11:51:23 splittist: pathetic I know :-) but I promise to come back with renewed enthusiasm for snow 11:51:52 with a shovel? 11:53:22 those damn $6 mangos 11:54:13 Hmm I wonder if there are better names than "make-waitqueue" as the constructor, and then "condition-wait" / "condition-notify" as the performers 11:54:34 Why isn't the constructor called make-condition-variable? 12:01:05 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229100037.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 12:06:33 Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 12:10:19 (let ((f (make-frobber))) (flet ((frob (&rest args) (apply f args)) ...) Is it safe to pass #'frob to multiple threads, assuming the closure resulting from make-frobber is thread-safe? 12:10:27 Or are there nasty surprises? 12:12:11 -!- Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:28:02 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:31:54 Guthur [n=Michael@host86-139-221-245.range86-139.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 12:34:19 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 12:39:39 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:40:04 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 12:41:40 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host86-139-221-245.range86-139.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 12:42:25 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:42:56 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 12:48:30 Jabberwockey [n=jens@193.174.12.194] has joined #lisp 12:48:33 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:48:50 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 12:49:40 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:50:48 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:55:22 demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-034-201.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 12:55:27 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@dslb-094-216-034-201.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 12:56:44 -!- Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:56:45 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:58:08 -!- Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-19-76.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:06:54 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 13:07:23 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:07:28 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 13:08:45 -!- OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@122-57-19-159.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:13:48 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-89-223-130-218.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:15:43 Axius [n=oijhif@109.97.40.228] has joined #lisp 13:16:28 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.166.152.212] has joined #lisp 13:17:58 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:20:33 -!- unicode [n=user@95.214.52.56] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:23:11 soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has joined #lisp 13:24:35 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-27-148.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:26:19 legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-58-174.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 13:27:09 -!- galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-45-83.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [] 13:28:46 Eleanore [n=el@h246n1.lunet.ias.bredband.telia.com] has joined #lisp 13:28:46 timor [n=martin@w4607.dip.tu-dresden.de] has joined #lisp 13:29:38 Harag [n=Harag@iburst-41-213-15-129.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:31:10 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:32:15 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 13:33:31 Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #lisp 13:33:54 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f75514b.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 13:34:22 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 13:34:48 unicode [n=user@95.214.53.212] has joined #lisp 13:35:49 lolatency [n=user@z65-50-0-4.ips.direcpath.com] has joined #lisp 13:36:53 -!- lolatency [n=user@z65-50-0-4.ips.direcpath.com] has left #lisp 13:37:48 Harag pasted "The value "LOAD-OP" is not of type SYMBOL." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93438 13:38:42 "LOAD-OP" is a string, not a symbol 13:38:59 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:39:19 Harag, it looks as though Cusp is calling (asdf:oos "LOAD-OP" 'somesystem) 13:39:48 yes 13:39:51 nowadays, you can just call asdf:load-system 13:39:54 *p_l* ponders why it can't just use asdf:load stuff 13:40:16 p_l, I think asdf:load-system is (relatively) recent 13:42:16 Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has joined #lisp 13:42:39 any know a way to make one Debian machine install all the packages that another one has installed? (I want to install every program that might be useful now while I'm on a fast connection) 13:43:08 dpkg --get-selections 13:43:17 pipe to dpkg --set-selections 13:43:20 approximately 13:43:33 well I dont think any body has looked at the cusp code that does this in ages ... so something else must have changed 13:44:08 Harag, I'm guessing that it used to use asdf:oos on a string, and that functionality became obsolete. 13:44:16 *Adlai* is just guessing, though 13:44:45 I don't think that ever would have worked. 13:45:17 the error comes from swank-asdf.lisp 13:45:18 tcr, memo from fe[nl]ix: try sending a message to the B-T list 13:45:47 *Krystof* wonders if anyone is going to say "it's not how ccl implements closures that we were all weeping about; it's the raw hexadecimal in the routine that does it" 13:47:04 k thanx ...I will investigate 13:47:08 Harag: Swank-asdf.lisp was updated not to use string literals because of allegro's modern mode 13:47:51 you have to replace those string literals by ":load-op" 13:48:01 tcr: thanx 13:48:15 and send a patch to Jasko 13:49:17 *tcr* wants M-. work on declarations 13:49:21 i am using ecusp but will send to both 13:50:41 So I changed handler-bind to be based on a maybe-inlined function call-with-handlers so it shows up in backtraces. Is that stupid for some reason? 13:51:14 Bushmills [n=nnnBushm@verhau.de] has joined #lisp 13:51:19 -!- Bushmills [n=nnnBushm@verhau.de] has left #lisp 13:53:37 attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-89-223-208-247.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 13:55:53 -!- unicode [n=user@95.214.53.212] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:56:35 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 14:02:35 -!- tmh [n=user@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 14:04:18 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-152-128.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:06:16 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-89-223-208-247.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:07:05 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@adsl-89-217-226-236.adslplus.ch] has quit [] 14:09:15 attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-89-223-196-196.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 14:12:26 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-89-223-196-196.vodafone.hu] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 14:12:58 attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-89-223-196-196.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 14:13:15 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 14:18:53 cavd [n=user@12.185.80.194] has joined #lisp 14:20:34 -!- Soulman__ [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:20:49 rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-152-128.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 14:23:26 -!- huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:24:46 fractalis [n=user@cpe-98-27-191-210.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:26:11 how can one inject a set of characters before each new line when formatting an unknown format text with format arguments? 14:26:52 I would like to avoid parsing the format control 14:27:57 in fact I have (apply 'format s c args) where c might contain ~% 14:28:12 and I'd like to indent the output in s according to the current line-column 14:31:11 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483CBEA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:31:52 -!- cavd [n=user@12.185.80.194] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 14:32:17 levente_meszaros: you can use ~? in s. 14:33:30 rrice [n=rrice@76.244.145.54] has joined #lisp 14:34:03 levente_meszaros: but for indenting, I don't know any other way than splitting the text... 14:34:06 levente_meszaros: or pprint-logical-block? 14:34:16 -!- opt9` [n=user@59.7.206.87] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:34:19 i have not used the pretty printer i must admit 14:34:36 p-l-b works with :per-line-prefix "" 14:34:37 -!- ineiros [n=itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:34:48 TDT [n=dthole@dhcp80ff865b.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 14:35:20 I'm not sure how slow that is 14:39:17 you specify per-line-prefix also with format, I think 14:39:20 +can 14:40:00 something like making the first ~; a ~@; out of my head 14:40:07 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 14:41:00 knobo`` [n=user@90.149.4.182] has joined #lisp 14:42:46 lukego [n=lukegorr@adsl-89-217-226-236.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 14:43:37 LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 14:45:55 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@174-17-22-62.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:46:54 (progn (format t "FOO") (format t "~@")) 14:47:00 almost works, except it doesnát 14:47:25 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.212.221] has joined #lisp 14:48:01 -!- FufieToo [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:48:59 looks better (progn (format t "FOO") (format t "~@<~@;BAR~%BAZ~@:>")) 14:50:11 heh I gotta learn more about advanced ways of using format. 14:50:24 I have the general use down, but there's a lot I haven't done yet with it. 14:50:30 ineiros [n=itniemin@dsl-hkibrasgw1-fe27f900-103.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 14:53:20 I must admit that after 3 years CL I did not get used to format 14:53:44 I dislike its crypticness 14:54:12 http://www.flickr.com/photos/xach/3384856473/ 14:54:32 (that is in response to a lightning talker who said "Macros can sense your fear and they will FUCK YOU UP!") 14:54:50 what was that talk about? 14:54:56 macros. 14:55:08 the history of them, not lisp-specific 14:55:18 it was a great lightning talk 14:55:29 -!- knobo` [n=user@90.149.4.182] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:55:47 "Michael Greenberg's talk on the TRAC macro language" is what i have in my notes, actually 15:00:36 -!- Axius [n=oijhif@109.97.40.228] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:02:54 Soulman__ [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 15:03:46 -!- somecodehere [n=ingvar@77-233-95-4.televork.ee] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:06:15 FufieToo [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 15:07:24 jmckitrick [n=user@adsl-176-73-108.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 15:07:25 felideon [n=user@12.228.15.162] has joined #lisp 15:07:33 -!- felideon [n=user@12.228.15.162] has left #lisp 15:09:53 HET3 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 15:10:36 knobo``` [n=user@90.149.4.182] has joined #lisp 15:10:43 jleija [n=jleija@adsl-91-0-201.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 15:11:17 When does it make sense to use '#' to not intern a symbol? 15:11:20 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:12:38 milanj [n=milan@79.101.204.29] has joined #lisp 15:13:35 You mean #:foo? 15:13:48 Exactly. 15:14:17 jmckitrick: when you're using a symbol primarily for its name 15:14:18 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 15:14:21 -!- timor [n=martin@w4607.dip.tu-dresden.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:14:29 jmckitrick: like in defpackage, in-package, defsystem, etc. 15:15:12 That's pretty much where I'm using it. When it's just the name you care about, and not binding a value to it, correct? 15:15:41 the name as a string, yeah. 15:16:34 setheus [n=setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:16:38 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:16:40 As a string, as opposed to... what else? 15:17:16 Does it have to be in opposition to something? 15:17:36 -!- Eleanore [n=el@h246n1.lunet.ias.bredband.telia.com] has quit [] 15:17:38 No, not really. 15:17:49 Just helps to clarify understand, I guess. 15:19:10 wgl [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has joined #lisp 15:21:03 jmckitrick, some other common uses for symbols are to name lexical variables, or to designate an object in a namespace, such as a function or a class. These uses all depend on symbol identity, rather than symbol names. 15:22:35 Ah, right. So using '#' always evaluates to a unique string, which does not have to be interned if it's only used for it's uniqueness, right? 15:23:24 jmckitrick: no. 15:23:43 (read#:foo 15:23:44 jmckitrick: First, the important part of the syntax is #: 15:23:45 blargh 15:24:12 (read-from-string "#:foo") returns a symbol which is not interned in any package, and is named "FOO" 15:24:13 jmckitrick: Second, it is not used for its uniqueness, it's used for the string that is its name. 15:24:24 Adlai: probably named "FOO". 15:24:44 Using #:foo can be a concession to the situation where it is named "foo" 15:25:00 if you used a string directly, you might get screwed up in that situation. 15:25:28 Xach, didn't I say named "FOO"? 15:25:34 -!- knobo`` [n=user@90.149.4.182] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:25:44 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 15:27:02 jmckitrick, when a symbol gets interned in a package, it can't get garbage collected unless you unintern it (or delete the package). If you use a symbol in a situation where you just need the name, but symbol identity doesn't matter, using an uninterned symbol is better because it can get GCed later. 15:27:04 I used to use package names as all-caps strings, then keywords, now I used the '#' because that's the one I see most often. 15:27:18 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:27:22 (and doesn't clutter up the keyword package, or whichever package is current) 15:27:58 Adlai: You did. That is not necessarily true (which is why I said "probably") 15:28:20 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:28:22 So since #:foo is always interned as "FOO" even if it is GCed it will still always be the same string. 15:28:31 right, there's always (readtable-case *readtable*) 15:29:12 jmckitrick, #:foo isn't interned anywhere 15:29:17 jmckitrick: Is your question regarding the syntax, that is literal uninterned symbols, or the general concept of uninterned symbols? 15:29:57 tcr: The general concept. 15:30:28 Adlai: In ABCL, uninterned symbols are kind of interned :-) 15:31:08 jmckitrick: Uninterned symbols are most often used for their uniqueness to prevent the name capture problem of macros 15:31:56 tcr, my experience with ABCL begins and ends with being unable to compile it or find a precompiled binary 15:32:30 Adlai: It's not conformant what it does :-) 15:33:01 tcr, where does it intern them? 15:33:01 I've been experimenting with stuff like #1# and #1= 15:33:11 Adlai: http://trac.common-lisp.net/armedbear/ticket/79 15:33:22 Adlai: Ha, I just finished building 0.18.0 from source, no binary found. 15:34:42 tcr: I guess I'm trying to understand how if a package name is not from the DEFPACKAGE form, it's then able to be found later in the IN-PACKAGE form. 15:34:58 tcr, wouldn't a quick fix be to create a new package for each uninterned symbol? 15:35:01 jmckitrick: packages are named by strings not by symbols 15:35:09 rather than a new package per file 15:35:33 Adlai: loading is slow already 15:35:55 it seems like ABCL still has many issues :\ 15:35:56 tcr: Ah. And the #: syntax is easier than using all-caps strings? 15:36:26 jmckitrick: a symbol with textual representation foo in a source file, does not necessarily become interned with a name "FOO" 15:36:27 jmckitrick: it also doesn't break when the symbol-name of #:foo turns out not to be "FOO" 15:36:35 jmckitrick, using all-caps strings breaks if (readtable-case *readtable*) isn't :uppercase 15:36:48 eh, :upcase 15:36:51 -!- stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:37:59 retroj [n=retroj@pdpc/supporter/active/retroj] has joined #lisp 15:40:58 *froydnj* takes some comfort in seeing that ccl has 512GB mapped on his x86-64 box 15:41:12 sbcl's 8GB looks paltry by comparison! 15:41:27 -!- knobo``` [n=user@90.149.4.182] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:41:27 ccl kicks some serious ass for high-memory machines 15:41:40 froydnj, it doesn't actually -use- most of that... runs just fine when I tell it to only reserve 1GB 15:41:56 Adlai: oh, sure, I know that 15:42:13 it freaked me out before I knew the difference between virt and res, though 15:42:28 froydnj: time for ironclad-rainbow-tables! 15:42:35 Adlai: on linux it acts though as if it actually allocated 512G 15:42:43 -!- FufieToo [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:43:39 Xach: indeed 15:44:02 yeah, where's my ironclad-gsm-encryption-crack class? 15:44:12 though I wouldn't want to do it in ccl until I figure out how to write LAP for some hashs and crypto algorithms 15:44:23 *p_l* was only dabbling with ironclad-skein-hash 15:44:51 Krystof: MORE CONTRIBUTED ALGORITHMS 15:45:11 froydnj: do you have any elliptic-curve stuff? 15:45:29 I have been reading number theory books on the trains 15:45:35 Krystof: no. those would be most welcome 15:46:07 thanks guys, back to work... 15:46:10 -!- jmckitrick [n=user@adsl-176-73-108.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 15:46:18 *p_l* would just like to achieve similar performance with a Skein hash in CL as was claimed by its creators, then he could blag that CL is *FAST* ;-) 15:46:59 froydnj: also, have you felt the need for different bignum multipliers? 15:47:21 for really huge numbers 15:47:40 Krystof: no. but then again, I haven't really done much with really huge numbers 15:47:54 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 15:48:44 the other thing I want is something that can wrap ironclad a bit like edi's regex-coach wrapped cl-ppcre 15:49:03 so that I can do pretty guis which explain what's happening, to use as a teaching aid for computer security students 15:51:16 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Client Quit] 15:52:00 Krystof really wants the huuuuuge numbers for his Wigflip cut accounting 15:54:01 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 15:54:13 -!- ASau` [n=user@77.246.231.4] has quit ["off"] 15:55:33 I have to be able to subtract at least one meeeeeleeon dollars, yes 15:56:16 You missed my scheme to go into the superpremium book printing business, avoiding a Xof tax. 15:56:46 gilt-edged, leather bound CL standards 15:56:59 ah yes 15:57:11 you should be able to get a good profit margin on that 15:57:14 ... lol 15:57:15 "This language is dead sexy"? 15:57:48 minus the sexy? 15:57:56 :D 15:58:22 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 15:58:29 clop: more like "It's too sexy for life" 15:58:35 -!- balooga [n=00u4440@adsl-99-162-211-151.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:58:45 -!- l_a_m [n=nlamirau@194.51.71.190] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:00:32 surely there is some valley in Pakistan with 5 year olds just dieing to hand-stich draft ANSI CL specs... 16:00:45 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-79-119-35.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:01:07 parolang [n=user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 16:01:11 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:01:43 -!- soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:01:58 l_a_m [n=nlamirau@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 16:04:36 -!- varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 16:05:11 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-79-119-35.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:07:39 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:12:37 soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has joined #lisp 16:13:55 alley_cat [n=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 16:15:39 -!- dostoyev1ky [i=sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:16:32 -!- soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has quit [Client Quit] 16:17:41 -!- billitch [n=billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [] 16:18:07 soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has joined #lisp 16:19:09 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-89-223-196-196.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:21:20 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:26:29 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-62-75-81.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:27:12 claudia20100115 [n=user@mail2.siscog.pt] has joined #lisp 16:27:53 Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has joined #lisp 11:35:31 ccl-logbot [n=ccl-logb@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 11:35:31 11:35:31 -!- names: ccl-logbot Kolyan Beetny Joreji_ HET2 billitch pavelludiq potatishandlarn Zephyrus grouzen addled lypanov kejsaren borisc simplechat emma daniel_ freiksenet xinming Reaver1 Athas kwinz3 Edico Krystof s0ber dnm_ dys fractalis prxq milanj spradnyesh jtza8 tcr Foofie mrSpec koning_r1bot fiveop ace4016 lpolzer__ Ralith TJohn benny c|mell wakeup^ coyo pjb Sergio` chiiph konr` saikatc legumbre_ AntiSpamMeta kuwabara2 lemoinem fihi09 pkhuong mornfall 11:35:31 -!- names: jsnell_ stepnem Soulmann ve hdurer specbot bipt G0SUB sellout wgl @slyrus REPLeffect_ Ginei_Morioka sjbach xenosoz2 djinni` uouou Guest955` _3b minion joshe _deepfire Holcxjo lnostdal CrazyEddy redline6561 Khisanth spn dto dmiles Taggnostr mtd PissedNumlock OmniMancer foom z0d TR2N zbigniew Ri-|away lukjad007 rsynnott_ Trystam fgtech rdd KatrinaTheLamia schme skeptomai|awa- drwhat emouse ASau drwho foom2 bdowning eno kleppari tarbo svaksha0 11:35:31 -!- names: yahooooo dostoyev1ky addled1 ceineke_ dmm_ dfox_ hicx174_ Dodek cataska cobol000 derrida thijso fe[nl]ix kingdon Borbus bakkdoor codemonkeyx aking johs rapacity ``Erik rlonstein guenthr pok Zhivago guaqua peddie joga ironChicken joast ecraven tic froydnj rbancroft erg aja mle tvaalen sykopomp mikezor ud jyujin Orest^bnc prip Intensity jamesstanley Wraithan nasloc__ hypno Raptelan Xantoz Axioplase_ lusory Aisling sleepydog Stattrav koollman 11:35:31 -!- names: jrockway Ober ianmcorvidae blackened` UnwashedMeme slather frontiers wlr cmatei stassats Jasko2 setheus herbieB cupe rullie GrayGnome hohum kpreid BunzOfSteel hoeq__ danderso1 ajklfjadsf whoppix p_l housel Nshag Guest44084 weirdo_ DrForr tychoish nullman Patzy ramus j0ni guaq Buganini dym yacin boyscared nowhereman Phoodus tmh xan-afk Dra`vi Pepe_ plutonas drewc egn nicktastic claudia20100115 l_a_m ineiros Adrinael madnificent moesenle ragnul 11:35:31 -!- names: Carnegie frodef easyE derefed anekos kencausey gz rey_ cods djm defn cpt_nemo felipe tltstc dalkvist fnordus alexbobp rootzlevel chii ivan4th Yamazaki-kun blast_hardcheese nuba re-l retupmoca sytse _3b` smithzv swilde antifuchs srcerer keltor Demosthenes Madsy spoofy bfein clop dcrawford Helheim cmeow raison lisppaste spacebat Tordek arbscht Spaghettini peterwang antoszka phadthai qeb`away ski bill` newfurniturey skeptical_p PuffTheMagic BrianRice 11:35:31 -!- names: Xach Fade EwS lupine_85 rotty_ clog wasabi___ franki^ lharc Legoolas Xof luis scode krappie pragma_ 11:36:01 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.76.217] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:36:07 Hm, so that location may be some fixup place for the gc? 11:38:02 <_deepfire> Ok, my initial guess was idiotic, I see. 11:38:28 tcr: judging by addresses, it's some very close to code location, that contains apriopriate data prepared by compiler 11:39:49 <_deepfire> Actually, it's not necessary idiotic. 11:40:01 -!- djinni` [n=djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has quit [Client Quit] 11:40:07 p_l: hoh that makes perfect sense, because you see :bar as a constant in the code-component if you inspect the function :-) 11:40:11 djinni` [n=djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 11:44:00 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-252-1-29-106.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:44:28 p_l pasted "(disassemble '(lambda (x) (eq x :bar)))" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93485 11:45:47 I think it answers it nicely when you look at the whole function, don't you think? :) 11:46:00 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.76.217] has joined #lisp 11:46:21 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.76.217] has quit [Broken pipe] 11:46:28 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.76.217] has joined #lisp 11:47:28 did you proclaim some optimization settings? 11:47:45 nope, those are default settings in clbuild-built SBCL on x86-64 11:48:13 that seems an aweful lot of code 11:49:30 -!- billitch [n=billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:49:33 for some months now, SLIME's selector REPL key has gotten me to the bare REPL (SBCL), not SLIME's REPL 11:49:43 would anyone know how I can change that 11:50:02 tcr: most of it is prologues and epilogues of function 11:50:20 no wonder GHC strips them ;-) 11:50:45 nowhereman: do you use the slime-repl contrib? 11:51:58 -!- prxq [n=mommer@g226134045.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:52:12 prxq [n=mommer@g226134045.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 11:52:19 -!- addled [n=adl@77.208.113.137] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:54:37 nowhereman: what do you have in (slime-setup '())? 11:56:23 -!- jtza8 [n=jtza8@wbs-196-2-117-62.wbs.co.za] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 11:59:21 prxq: '(inferior-slime slime-autodoc slime-banner slime-xref-browser slime-references slime-presentations slime-presentation-streams slime-fancy-inspector) 12:00:04 Replace inferior-slime with slime-repl 12:05:24 sadiquea [n=sadiquea@122.172.7.83] has joined #lisp 12:06:53 guille_ [n=user@247.Red-81-35-175.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:06:59 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 12:09:28 great, thanks 12:11:02 -!- Joreji_ [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:13:55 -!- djinni` [n=djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has quit [Client Quit] 12:13:59 Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has joined #lisp 12:14:03 djinni` [n=djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 12:14:18 -!- dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:21:33 how can i change the default repository location (~/.asdf-install-dir) for asdf 12:22:37 derrida: asdf:*central-repository* 12:23:15 ah yes :) 12:23:19 p_l: thank you 12:29:13 is it an indication that something is wrong if i need to start ccl from my ~/ as $PWD for asdf to be able to find things? 12:29:30 i didn't use relative paths in my .ccl-init.lisp 12:29:34 derrida: possibly 12:29:48 minion: lisppaste 12:29:49 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 12:29:54 paste your ccl init:) 12:29:58 k 12:30:08 cobol000_ [n=r4y@p5496D17F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:30:26 derrida: asdf:*central-repository* should contain forms for evaluation, perhaps, you put there already evaluated paths 12:30:55 asdf:*central-registry* 12:31:00 http://sprunge.us/Tfbh 12:31:07 p_l confused us all 12:31:26 hehe 12:31:32 derrida: ccl doesn't understand "~" 12:31:41 omg 12:31:46 your right the relative paths are back! 12:31:49 so embarassing 12:32:04 common pitfall 12:32:09 unicode_ [n=user@95.214.60.65] has joined #lisp 12:33:00 (pushnew '(merge-pathnames ".asdf-install-dir/systems/" (user-homedir-pathname)) registry :test #'equal) 12:34:49 rajeshsr [n=rajeshsr@59.92.69.187] has joined #lisp 12:34:53 ccl doesn't understand ~? 12:34:57 *Xach* smells some hacking to be done 12:35:28 derrida: if you want tilde to work, install package tilde :) 12:35:43 only clisp understands them out of the box 12:35:44 stassats: it doesn't like registry 12:36:09 derrida: i was lazy to type asdf:*central-registry* 12:36:11 should that be asdf:*central-registry* 12:36:12 oh 12:36:14 sorry 12:36:21 i'm half braindead :> 12:36:43 stassats: untrue 12:36:52 stassats: lispworks at least does, and i think acl too. 12:37:06 <_deepfire> http://ccl.clozure.com/manual/chapter4.4.html#Pathanmes: 12:37:19 hm, i actually get the same error message 12:37:22 <_deepfire> '"~user/..." can be used to refer to an absolute pathname rooted at the home directory of the user named "user".' 12:37:25 stassats: ecl too 12:37:53 somecodehere [n=ingvar@75.186.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 12:39:33 Xach: making false statement occurred to be easier than testing it 12:40:02 story of humanity :-) 12:40:18 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 12:40:39 *Xach* has a special place for ~ in his heart, and cl pathnames 12:40:58 <_deepfire> Well, we can't recheck everything, we have use judgement-based fact caching. 12:41:09 <_deepfire> Well, we can't recheck everything, we have to use judgement-based fact caching. 12:41:10 *stassats* has a special place for ~ and cl format 12:41:21 -!- cobol000 [n=r4y@p5496C71D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:41:56 <_deepfire> Our productivity would grind to a halt if we were to cease using our memory. 12:43:07 I'm getting 404 errors from asdf for cl-opengl and lispbuilder-sdl 12:43:19 from asdf-install 12:43:27 derrida: they are perhaps not signed 12:43:30 asdf-install rather, is there anything i should do? 12:43:41 derrida: skip gpg check is one option 12:43:46 I think these are real 404s actually 12:43:56 using clbuild is another option 12:43:57 b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 12:44:11 > While executing: ASDF-INSTALL::DOWNLOAD-URL-TO-FILE 12:44:47 <_deepfire> derrida, do you feel like testing a bleeding-edge software delivery technology? 12:44:55 yes 12:45:01 :> 12:45:29 <_deepfire> Then wget http://www.feelingofgreen.ru/shared/src/desire/climb.sh 12:46:10 <_deepfire> and then 'sh climb.sh -m cl-opengl ~/desr' 12:46:10 i thought it will deliver bleeding-edge software 12:47:12 oconnore_ [n=oconnore@c-24-61-119-4.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:47:49 <_deepfire> derrida, oh, you need to have git installed 12:48:42 <_deepfire> And if you're not on linux/sbcl, sorry for distracting you, my solution is not working. 12:48:42 it's working :> 12:48:42 done! 12:49:02 should the script leave me inside of sbcl? 12:49:17 <_deepfire> yes 12:49:42 <_deepfire> derrida, you may want to read http://www.feelingofgreen.ru/shared/src/desire/doc/tutorial.html 12:50:02 cool i will thanks 12:50:46 How do test suites deal with errors in threads spawned in the test case? 12:51:27 <_deepfire> derrida, in that repl you can enter things like (lust :lispbuilder-sdl) to get more stuff 12:51:48 <_deepfire> derrida, and (apropos-desr 'clim) to query things in an apropos-like manner. 12:51:52 Presu mably they are equipped to handle a little indeterminacy. 12:53:10 If sbcl supported a default-specials variable, you could bind *debugger-hook* in there, I guess 12:53:47 <_deepfire> derrida, note that you may need to use (loadsys :foo) instead of (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op 'foo), because of the undeclared dependencies mess.. 12:56:04 varjag [n=eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 12:57:45 leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 13:00:44 pr [n=pr@p579CA485.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:00:56 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 13:03:42 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-252-1-29-106.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 13:06:37 -!- unicode_ [n=user@95.214.60.65] has quit ["leaving"] 13:08:37 gabnet [n=gabnet@226.23.67-86.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 13:10:04 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-72-228-72-196.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:12:20 xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.141.32] has joined #lisp 13:15:34 Axius [n=oijhif@92.84.25.79] has joined #lisp 13:19:14 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.76.217] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:19:34 Edward [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-62-8.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:24:44 dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:26:11 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@202.137.157.253] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:27:08 -!- oconnore_ [n=oconnore@c-24-61-119-4.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:27:24 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-194-241.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:28:57 -!- somecodehere [n=ingvar@75.186.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:29:40 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-72-228-72-196.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:30:59 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:31:24 freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 13:32:26 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 13:33:08 <_deepfire> Does anybody know how to obtain the backtrace on CCL in a printed form? 13:33:41 -!- legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-23-62.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:34:01 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 13:34:50 consult its swank backend? 13:35:24 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:35:52 <_deepfire> tcr, I doubted swank needs an unstructured backtrace.. 13:36:08 <_deepfire> tcr, I know about CCL::BACKTRACE-AS-LIST 13:36:12 Oh it doesn't, but M-. is your friend :-) 13:36:33 there's a swank-backend:print-frame 13:36:36 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:36:54 <_deepfire> tcr, I'm still in a shotgun-porting mode, no slime attached to CCL yet :-) 13:37:00 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:37:16 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 13:37:26 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 13:38:27 -!- xan-afk [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:38:40 (pprint-linear t (backtrace-as-list)) perhaps? 13:40:24 <_deepfire> Well, I was aiming at sb-debug:backtrace level of prettiness.. 13:43:10 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:46:47 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-152-128.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:47:57 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 13:48:03 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 13:49:19 freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 13:57:40 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:58:03 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 14:01:01 freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 14:01:19 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-194-241.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:02:30 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-194-241.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:03:01 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-194-241.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:06:56 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:08:21 Zephyrus__ [n=emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 14:08:35 pemryan [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has joined #lisp 14:09:20 -!- xinming_ is now known as xinming 14:09:41 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-194-241.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:11:18 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-194-241.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 14:11:39 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 14:14:48 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:15:38 Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 14:17:06 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-194-241.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:19:43 -!- Zephyrus [n=emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [No route to host] 14:20:18 _JFT_ [n=_JFT_@modemcable204.87-177-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 14:22:28 -!- chiiph [n=chiiph@190.1.21.180] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6.3"] 14:23:24 -!- ivan4th [n=ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1"] 14:24:38 ivan4th [n=ivan4th@212.1.228.48] has joined #lisp 14:26:03 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-159-209-174.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 14:28:35 abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 14:29:04 arbscht_ [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 14:29:32 -!- uouou [n=magnific@unaffiliated/uouou] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:31:16 Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 14:33:11 uouou [n=magnific@unaffiliated/uouou] has joined #lisp 14:33:12 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:34:28 Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-72-181.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:36:14 freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 14:43:07 -!- arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:49:58 jtza8 [n=jtza8@wbs-196-2-119-27.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:51:22 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 14:51:23 saba_ [n=saba@c213-89-102-144.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 14:51:33 -!- Edward [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-62-8.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:56:50 -!- easyE [i=[c+gHQQW@panix3.panix.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:57:39 freiksenet1 [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 14:58:47 galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-61-90-28-75.revip.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 14:59:26 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:59:39 -!- Axius [n=oijhif@92.84.25.79] has quit [Client Quit] 14:59:59 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:00:01 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-19-159.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:02:20 Edward [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-32-223.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:06:00 retroj [n=retroj@pdpc/supporter/active/retroj] has joined #lisp 15:07:30 plage [n=user@113.161.76.50] has joined #lisp 15:07:36 Good evening! 15:09:34 mishoo_ [n=mishoo@79.112.112.195] has joined #lisp 15:09:45 good evening, plage 15:10:37 how is your lecture series going? 15:10:54 hoeq_ [n=hoeq@c-35c8e455.016-475-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 15:12:44 Adlai: I finished everything. Now I am on the airport waiting to board. 15:13:10 Adlai: My 2 Lisp seminars went quite well with more people than I expected coming to listen. 15:13:48 -!- konr` [n=user@189.96.192.134] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:13:49 ah, good to hear. Have a safe trip! 15:13:49 konr`` [n=user@189.96.192.134] has joined #lisp 15:13:59 Adlai: Thanks! 15:14:11 mcspiff [n=user@142.68.78.64] has joined #lisp 15:18:11 -!- hoeq_ [n=hoeq@c-35c8e455.016-475-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 15:18:22 -!- Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-72-181.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:19:06 -!- abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:19:14 Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has joined #lisp 15:19:48 pbusser [n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 15:20:03 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:21:48 -!- Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:22:17 -!- bipt [i=bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:24:37 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.180.172] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:25:00 marioxcc [n=user@200.77.65.198] has joined #lisp 15:25:06 guille_` [n=user@247.Red-81-35-175.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:27:55 abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 15:28:29 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["work"] 15:31:06 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:31:11 Strange place this. At the airport, there are Wifi networks that require a password, but the password is the same as the name of the network (which was the first thing I tried). 15:36:12 plage: the one at Charles De Gaulle Airport has broken access controls - I managed to access google without logging in, assuming I used localized site (.pl) and Nokia MiniMap browser :D 15:36:54 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-141-156-235-91.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:37:19 p_l: Good to know I suppose. Last time, I paid for an hour, and never managed to access it :( 15:37:22 Joreji_ [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has joined #lisp 15:38:28 Boarding seems to be starting. Got to go. See you in later. 15:38:33 ikki [n=ikki@189.247.103.231] has joined #lisp 15:38:46 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 15:41:18 see you 15:42:01 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:42:04 -!- guille_ [n=user@247.Red-81-35-175.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:42:26 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.211.93] has joined #lisp 15:45:34 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@174-17-22-62.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:46:15 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:47:37 -!- Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-187-193.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:48:14 c|mell [n=cmell@202.137.157.253] has joined #lisp 15:49:42 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-159-209-174.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 15:50:13 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:51:33 -!- simplechat [n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:51:43 -!- guille_` is now known as guille_ 15:53:47 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:54:01 -!- Trystam is now known as Tristam 15:54:32 Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-25-223.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:57:15 -!- plage [n=user@113.161.76.50] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:57:42 -!- lupine_85 [n=quassel@unaffiliated/lupine-85/x-7392152] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:59:01 Ragnaroek [n=chatzill@p54A632D0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:59:50 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 16:02:56 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 16:03:14 rdd [n=user@c83-250-152-128.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 16:07:34 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 16:08:40 legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-36-52.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 16:09:28 parolang [n=user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 16:09:55 -!- Edward [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-32-223.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:09:56 Does substructuring have any overhead on the layout? 16:10:30 I mean I could easy just add a boolean slot instead of defining a new substructure 16:10:36 easily 16:12:28 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:13:50 <_deepfire> Ok, port to CCL was mostly a breeze. 16:14:23 <_deepfire> The client part, anyway. 16:14:41 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:15:18 reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:15:36 <_deepfire> I guess I'll take a stab at ECL and CLisp now. 16:21:12 kenanb [n=kenanb@88.238.179.200] has joined #lisp 16:21:39 <_deepfire> Does anybody know if CCL has timers? 16:22:03 easyE [i=[60h2hmy@panix3.panix.com] has joined #lisp 16:22:24 <_deepfire> That is, asynchronous scheduling of functions. 16:23:26 as in "happening at exact time"? 16:24:17 <_deepfire> p_l, as in, "fire this function x seconds later" 16:24:57 _deepfire: what are you porting? 16:24:58 <_deepfire> I grepped the source tree for "timer" and looked through the documentation to no avail. 16:25:07 <_deepfire> prxq, desire 16:25:37 <_deepfire> Anyway, timers are non-essential, just nice to have. 16:25:42 i have a certain reluctance to google for it... :-) is that a game? 16:25:45 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.88.124] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:26:10 <_deepfire> prxq, http://www.feelingofgreen.ru/shared/src/desire/doc/overview.html 16:27:04 <_deepfire> prxq, I don't know how to call it, actually, it's a soup of things which can act in several roles. 16:28:05 <_deepfire> This reminds me, I need to link the tutorial from the main overview.. 16:28:46 _deepfire: can you deal with posix signals? 16:29:25 If yes, I can gi ve you something that would deal with timers on posix systems 16:30:54 <_deepfire> p_l, you can throw it at me anyway -- I'm not sure what sort of dealership I may provide :-) 16:33:12 Modius [n=Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:34:23 _deepfire: you'd need to catch SIGALARM and have the handler check current time and run functions that "pass" their schedule, and use CFFI to access alarm() 16:34:44 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@213162066157.public.t-mobile.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:36:19 <_deepfire> p_l, I guess I'll pass then for now, I'm hoping to focus on essintial portability stuff. Thanks anyway! 16:36:31 <_deepfire> *essential 16:36:35 how is ccls supposed to be installed on a linux system? just copy the executable somewhere? 16:36:56 _deepfire: thanks. that looks impressive 16:37:24 i mean ccl 16:37:26 <_deepfire> prxq, I did it in two steps: 1. copy the ccl directory to /usr/local/src and 2. copy ccl/scripts/ccl{,64} to somewhere in $PATH 16:38:12 -!- abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:38:13 how do you tell it where the sources are? 16:38:37 <_deepfire> prxq, the ccl/scripts/ccl{,64} scripts default to /usr/local/src/ccl 16:38:49 ok, thanks 16:39:27 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/freenode/x-iylbvadiahbbmxlb] has joined #lisp 16:40:02 hi. I saw Sheeple. its project home page says "CLOS-like". What does that mean? Anybody here who knows? 16:41:08 -!- retroj [n=retroj@pdpc/supporter/active/retroj] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:41:43 <_deepfire> ehu, the #lisp contacts are sykopomp, Adlai and madnificent 16:41:57 retroj [n=retroj@pdpc/supporter/active/retroj] has joined #lisp 16:44:33 <_deepfire> maybe I'm wrong abuot madnificent 16:44:38 <_deepfire> *aobut 16:44:46 <_deepfire> heh 16:47:34 pestario [n=pestario@ool-43522f54.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 16:49:09 -!- rajeshsr [n=rajeshsr@59.92.69.187] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:49:11 Is there a lib function that identifies if a path represents a file or a directory? 16:49:15 ehu: It's CLOS-like because: 1. it has the same generic function/method abstraction (separate from classes/objects) 16:50:04 2. It has similar syntax for most of its functions/macros, and the library is named in a similar way, so it's fairly easy to guess what something does. 16:50:39 -!- rsynnott_ is now known as rsynnott 16:50:44 and I guess some other stuff, but that's the bulk of it. It used to sort ancestors the same way as CLOS does, but we use C3 to linearize now. 16:52:12 first thing and I crash ccl with a segfault 16:53:08 so much for stable and so on 16:53:24 you could consider it part of its commitment to stability. 16:53:28 prxq: was your first thing a call to (ccl::crash-with-segfault)? 16:53:51 prxq: did you use release or HEAD? 16:54:02 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 16:54:27 i used a release from svn and recompiled it 16:54:32 Xach: almost, it seems 16:54:36 prxq: Wasn't it a stable crash? 16:54:36 _deepfire: nope 16:54:39 _deepfire: we are not 16:54:48 <_deepfire> Modius, CL-FAD has an assorted set of related functions: PATHNAME-DIRECTORY-P, FILE-EXISTS-P and DIRECTORY-EXISTS-P 16:55:04 -!- xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:55:31 ehu: oh wait no, I should've read the question of ehu first. You should probably contact either sykopomp or Adlai. You'll have more luck in #sykosomatic though 16:55:37 xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 16:56:25 ehu: the CLOS-like part covers the naming of some methods and the way inheritance is handled. The mop is also inspired on CLOS's MOP 16:57:02 <_deepfire> madnificent, only inspired, not implemented using it, largely? :-) 16:57:10 i'm so utterly unimpressed 16:57:11 not anymore 16:57:28 <_deepfire> prxq, by what? CCL? 16:57:36 yeah 16:57:48 1s. I'll paste code 16:58:25 <_deepfire> prxq, the binary I downloaded went through bootstrapping desire/downloading some modules using it without a single crash.. 16:59:24 ruediger [n=quassel@93-82-7-85.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 17:01:03 <_deepfire> Not that it means much.. 17:01:19 prxq pasted "this crashes ccl" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93491 17:01:30 -!- freiksenet1 [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:02:34 -!- nowhereman [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:02:47 on the box I am testing this there are actually 8 cores 17:04:47 freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 17:05:00 <_deepfire> prxq, survives on a single-core, eventually killing some processes 17:05:12 <_deepfire> and landing into the REPL 17:05:36 -!- pestario [n=pestario@ool-43522f54.dyn.optonline.net] has left #lisp 17:06:32 _deepfire: does it kill them all? 17:06:43 i mean, the ones that are supposed to be killed 17:07:05 <_deepfire> prxq, it reliably kills seven of them 17:07:26 <_deepfire> So, all, yes. 17:07:35 <_deepfire> Survives on a dual-core as well. 17:07:58 <_deepfire> But it kills them after a seemingly random period of time -- 1-10 sec 17:08:13 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-252-1-29-106.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:08:40 prxq: What do you want to use multi-threading for? 17:09:23 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:11:11 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-152-128.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:11:21 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:11:44 rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-152-128.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 17:12:24 <_deepfire> Nice, ECL's RUN-PROGRAM supports all essentials. 17:12:44 tcr: number crunching 17:14:05 <_deepfire> ..except for environment. 17:14:56 _deepfire: if needed, you have fork()/execve() 17:15:20 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-159-209-174.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 17:16:06 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 17:17:30 <_deepfire> p_l, do you think that I need reminding that I do? :-) 17:17:43 prxq: do you see my privmsgs? 17:17:47 <_deepfire> p_l, besides, it'd be easier to patch ECL than to reimplement that stuff. 17:18:09 <_deepfire> Easier and more productive. 17:22:05 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 17:23:30 tcr: yes 17:24:56 <_3b> is there something like gitk for darcs? 17:25:30 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483D4A4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:25:51 -!- EwS [n=ews@c-76-102-249-234.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:28:52 *Xach* prods antifuchs for details about logical host pain 17:31:13 -!- _JFT_ [n=_JFT_@modemcable204.87-177-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [] 17:32:36 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@85.125.183.138] has joined #lisp 17:33:36 prxq: What version of CCL are you using? I have 1.2 on my machine. 17:34:40 <_3b> hmm, did clbuild --implementation get broken at some point? 17:35:25 Xach: since I haven't got round to commenting -- logical hosts are not terrible in that they potentially allow for only one conditionalization for an installation of some software 17:35:53 <_3b> doesn't seem to like using a separate ccl, or starting it directly by filename 17:35:54 pain comes in trying to portably refer to files that don't fit the least-common-denominator assumption 17:36:33 prxq: Just ran it on my machine, 8 cores, no problems. 17:36:46 and they're not optimal in that it's usually possible to get down to zero conditionalizations by using relative pathnames, explicit make-pathname (not namestring syntax) with :case :common, and using *load-pathname* or similar to make the software location-independent 17:36:54 It had to compete for 2 cores with a finite element analysis. 17:37:17 -!- sadiquea [n=sadiquea@122.172.7.83] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:37:44 without knowing what problem you're trying to solve, I'm not sure how to be more specific. My view is that if you use logical pathnames only to refer to files that the same lisp implementation has itself created, you're going to be OK; anything else and you might suffer 17:38:12 adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-250-90.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 17:39:35 Krystof: currently, for some applications, i need to refer to external files, and sometimes I set up something like myapp:*base-directory* and merge with that to produce pathnames. 17:40:02 the external files are things like html templates, data files, font files, etc. 17:40:29 (try referring to e.g. ~/.gnome2_private/foo or /etc/X11/xorg.conf.20070114121913) 17:40:53 that leads to things like (load-font (merge-pathnames "fonts/font.ttf" *base-directory*)) or (load-font (app-path "fonts/font.ttf")) 17:40:53 if you control the names of those files, you are on reasonably safe ground 17:41:04 now i think i can just use (load-font "app:fonts;font.ttf") 17:41:08 and i like that a lot more 17:41:27 if the names of those files are arbitrary, you are in for pain 17:41:42 No, they're my application files, and I control them fully. 17:42:45 so if you are exchanging one location of conditionalization (that the user has to edit) and another, and gaining a more compact syntax, that's fine 17:43:15 my ideal is effectively position-independent installation, where everything dispatches from *load-pathname*, and the user/installer doesn't have to edit anything 17:44:04 Well, I think I'm reducing it by one, because the application can set up an initial host based on *load-pathname* and I can override it during initialization if I need to. 17:44:49 i currently set up a special based on *load-pathname*; now i'll set up a translation. 17:46:02 i also like the potential for selectively overriding parts of the translation 17:46:09 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@93-82-7-85.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:46:40 if "app:db;" needs to point to a totally different path structure than "app:templates;" e.g. 17:46:58 not so easy with merging 17:48:07 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 17:48:30 -!- mrSpec is now known as spec[afk] 17:49:38 -!- Joreji_ [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:49:53 -!- gabnet [n=gabnet@226.23.67-86.rev.gaoland.net] has quit ["Quitte"] 17:51:37 Hmm, how many octets of memory would a simple-vector of length 100 take in sbcl on amd64? 17:52:18 Possibly something like 816 or 824 bytes, I'd guess. 17:52:20 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:52:37 or even 832. 17:53:15 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@85.125.183.138] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:54:22 jleija [n=jleija@adsl-91-0-201.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 17:57:18 -!- jleija [n=jleija@adsl-91-0-201.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:57:19 816 17:57:31 jleija [n=jleija@adsl-91-0-201.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 17:57:35 [header | length | data ...] 17:59:10 thanks 17:59:29 Krystof: do all simple arrays have the same header&length overhead size? 17:59:38 all one-dimensional simple arrays, yes 17:59:42 thanks 17:59:50 Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has joined #lisp 18:00:28 _Pb [n=pb@75.131.194.186] has joined #lisp 18:00:45 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@85.125.183.138] has joined #lisp 18:01:01 <_Pb> has anyone here been able to install asdf-install in ECL? 18:01:08 not sure if it counts to "up" the logical pathname stuff in CL but I really love the URI support in SCL for example. though admittedly, when my life turns miserable, it has so far only been my own incompetence and lack of unstandardized features. :) 18:01:32 tmh: I though 1.3. let me check. 18:02:09 prxq: I just downloaded the latest release, 1.4, but haven't installed it. The other thing is that I'm on RHEL x86_64, if that matters. 18:02:46 tmh: I'm using 1.4. 18:02:54 no idea if that matters :-) 18:02:58 Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 18:04:58 tmh: mind if we go the whole thing through step by step, to make sure I am not missing something? 18:05:47 tmh: I downloaded it with svn co http://svn.clozure.com/publicsvn/openmcl/release/1.4/linuxx86/ccl 18:06:04 -!- jleija [n=jleija@adsl-91-0-201.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit ["leaving"] 18:06:18 jleija [n=jleija@adsl-91-0-201.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 18:06:50 then I did run lx86cl64 and issued the (rebuild-ccl :full t) command 18:08:12 prxq: I just download the binary, I don't build it. I try not to build stuff unless I have a specific reason. 18:09:03 prxq: There are scripts for running ccl 18:10:38 tmh: right. I moved the src dir to another place, edited the path in the ccl64 script, and moved that to a place in the path. 18:11:37 prxq: Doing a little house cleaning on my files, I'll have 1.4 running in a minute. 18:11:59 prxq: You can just create a symlink from ~/bin/ccl to that script 18:13:32 i'm downloading the tarball to see how that goes 18:15:12 -!- _Pb [n=pb@75.131.194.186] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:16:30 prxq: (test-cores 7 #'consing-f) executes fine on 1.4. 18:17:05 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:17:20 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:17:48 that's odd 18:17:58 prxq: so you ran HEAD, not stable 18:18:13 ah, just rebuilt 18:18:13 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:18:20 *p_l* didn't rebuild CCL 18:18:25 well, they claim that's the best way to install ccl 18:19:02 gonzojive [n=red@171.66.109.141] has joined #lisp 18:19:26 rfh [n=holzi199@212.186.133.195] has joined #lisp 18:20:19 i get a segmentation fault with the ccl from the tarball too. 18:21:07 The subversion checkout includes binaries? 18:21:25 -!- ragnul is now known as rahul 18:21:32 Oh, the documentation states that. 18:22:18 freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 18:22:28 prxq: What platform are you running it on? 18:22:33 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7834325690816256399&hl=tr&emb=1#docid=8612534856516244040 18:22:53 kenanb: Description, please. 18:23:16 wait a sec please :) 18:24:19 prxq: I have ccl on amd x86-64 + linux 2.6.31 and your stuff doesn't segfault my machine. 18:24:24 only two cores, though. 18:24:54 tmh: something that apparently shows a lot of symbolics stuff at work 18:25:29 Xach: thanks, I just didn't want to be bothered by spam. 18:26:28 Eni [n=endy@064-090-158-071.plateautel.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:15 prxq: i just tested the tarball on "Red Hat Enterprise Linux AS release 4 (Nahant Update 8)" x86_64, with both the 32- and 64-bit binary. they both work fine for me. 18:27:28 in this video showing the symbolics s-graphics software, they use the similar style with software like nendo, wings3d and izware mirai for the commands, like ".Inset" ".Bevel" in menus, most of them starting with a dot, is that a convention of some purpose, or is mirai inspired from symbolics 3d graphic modeling system 18:28:04 i've never seen such a style in other modeling tools 18:28:08 <_3b> my understanding is that they are related 18:28:26 -!- Ragnaroek [n=chatzill@p54A632D0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:28:38 Heh, the 80's called, they want their video back. :-P 18:29:20 btw i didn't know symbolics had such a powerful 3d modeling system for its time 18:29:57 that ancestor of that system is still in use 18:30:08 tmh: jaunty on an i7 18:30:28 i have to go. bbl 18:30:51 report the segfault to the appropriate ccl list 18:31:44 rdad [n=rdad@cpe-24-193-112-99.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:31:56 -!- rdad [n=rdad@cpe-24-193-112-99.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 18:32:18 danlei [n=user@pD9E2CC92.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:33:57 is there something like FILE-DIRECTORY-P or DIRECTORY-PATHNAME-P in sbcl? 18:34:30 danlei: are you looking for whether something in the file system is a directory, or whether a pathname has the directory form? 18:35:17 wether something in teh file system is a directory 18:35:42 danlei: well, I would install cl-fad and use cl-fad:directory-exists-p 18:35:50 hm, ok 18:36:09 or you could look at its source and reach conclusions about how to do it in sbcl :-) 18:36:33 how about checking the pathname for directoryness? 18:36:42 same answer, different function :) 18:36:49 ok, ty :) 18:37:15 danlei: cl-fad is derived from code developed in a practical in the PCL book 18:37:24 if you want to explore the issues a bit. 18:37:31 -!- Kolyan [n=nartamon@93-80-220-249.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 18:37:35 Athas`` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 18:37:36 well. I looked, and: in sbcl, PROBE-FILE of a dir e.g. (probe-file ".") will return a directory pathname. and such a pathname is distinguished by the NAME and TYPE being nil 18:37:44 minion: tell danlei about PCL 18:38:06 Fade: thanks, I remember that chapter, but I've used CCL exclusively for sime time and didn't remember if there was somethink like d-p-p was in SBLC 18:38:13 *something 18:38:20 ah 18:39:06 -!- coyo [n=unf@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:39:21 rdd` [n=rdd@c83-250-152-128.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:40:17 -!- Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:40:17 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:40:17 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-152-128.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:40:17 -!- retroj [n=retroj@pdpc/supporter/active/retroj] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:40:17 -!- reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:40:17 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@202.137.157.253] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:40:17 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.247.103.231] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:40:17 -!- jtza8 [n=jtza8@wbs-196-2-119-27.wbs.co.za] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:40:17 -!- arbscht_ [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:40:17 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.141.32] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:40:17 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:40:17 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:40:17 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A7C1A.versanet.de] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:40:17 -!- wakeup^ [n=wakeup@koln-5d8154ee.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:40:17 -!- _3b [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:40:18 -!- joshe [n=joshe@opal.elsasser.org] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:40:18 -!- spn [n=spn@adsl-68-122-28-85.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:40:18 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:40:18 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-141-157-230-238.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:40:18 -!- minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:40:18 -!- Holcxjo [n=holly@home.sinclair-durer.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:40:18 -!- _deepfire [n=deepfire@80.92.100.69] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:40:18 -!- lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:40:18 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:40:18 -!- dmiles [n=dmiles@c-67-165-120-12.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:40:19 I've got a little function in ccl-init which pushes the dirs under asdf/site in *central-registry*, that's why I asked 18:40:25 xinming [n=hyy@218.73.141.32] has joined #lisp 18:40:36 wakeup [n=wakeup@koln-5d8154ee.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 18:40:42 (when I'm on windows) 18:40:59 Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has joined #lisp 18:41:02 danlei: why not patch asdf to use recursive search? 18:41:02 arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 18:41:08 ah.. cl-fad takes some pains to be cross implementation compatible, but I don't know how it works on windows. 18:41:10 jtza8 [n=jtza8@wbs-196-2-119-27.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:41:43 Funny that: I'm using adding calls to CL-FAD as we speak, on windows. Seems to be working. 18:42:04 p_l: you mean the "alternate sysdef search functionality" mentioned on the cliki page? 18:42:31 danlei: possibly 18:43:12 -!- galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-61-90-28-75.revip.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:43:14 I have some code for that in my sbclrc, but I haven't actually used it (but I switched it to search my project dir) 18:43:56 p_l: could you paste that code? 18:43:57 stoop [n=stoop@c-68-34-110-14.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:44:17 Fade: wait a while, I'm restarting my FF session 18:44:23 *nod* 18:44:31 p_l: I'll have a look at it, atm I was just looking for the q&d solution ;) 18:45:24 galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-48-26.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 18:45:26 emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 18:45:44 -!- mishoo_ [n=mishoo@79.112.112.195] has quit ["be back later"] 18:45:59 cools [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 18:46:14 rdad 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[verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:48:40 -!- retroj [n=retroj@pdpc/supporter/active/retroj] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:48:41 _deepfire_ [n=deepfire@80.92.100.69] has joined #lisp 18:48:42 _3b__ [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:48:49 ikki [n=ikki@189.247.103.231] has joined #lisp 18:48:49 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-141-157-230-238.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:48:52 b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 18:48:59 joshee [n=joshe@opal.elsasser.org] has joined #lisp 18:49:02 Holcxjo [n=holly@home.sinclair-durer.net] has joined #lisp 18:49:06 p_l pasted "subdirectory system search" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93504 18:49:06 retroj [n=retroj@pdpc/supporter/active/retroj] has joined #lisp 18:49:08 c|mell [n=cmell@202.137.157.253] has joined #lisp 18:49:14 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-67-165-120-12.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:49:24 lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has joined #lisp 18:49:26 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:49:40 pkhuong annotated #93485 "That's why the *specials* syntax is useful" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93485#1 18:50:13 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 18:50:34 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 18:51:26 kpreid: ah, you're right, just checking for pathname-name & pathname-type should do it 18:51:30 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.112.195] has joined #lisp 18:51:41 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 18:51:51 but with cl-fad you get portability to non-sbcl for free! 18:53:11 kpreid: it's just for my init file to get the dirs under asdf/site, If it were for something 'real' I'd use cl-fat. ty! 18:53:19 *cl-fad 18:54:39 p_l: ok, that's what's on cliki 18:54:53 p_l: I'll give it a try 18:58:16 pkhuong: hahaha 18:58:51 that's still an aweful lot of code :-) 18:59:15 I mean in the special case 19:00:16 pkhuong: thx for clarification 19:01:35 Joreji_ [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has joined #lisp 19:02:14 pixpop [n=pixpop@adsl-76-208-138-104.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:04:48 -!- pixpop [n=pixpop@adsl-76-208-138-104.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:04:54 pixpop [n=pixpop@adsl-76-208-138-104.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:05:26 -!- pixpop [n=pixpop@adsl-76-208-138-104.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:06:14 pixpop [n=pixpop@adsl-76-208-138-104.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:06:57 -!- pixpop [n=pixpop@adsl-76-208-138-104.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:10:01 hypno: how many cores does your machine have? 19:10:53 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:12:17 galaxywatcher_ [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-45-33.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 19:17:37 _Pb [n=pb@75.131.194.186] has joined #lisp 19:18:18 billitch [n=billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:18:22 -!- galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-48-26.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:18:23 -!- galaxywatcher_ is now known as galaxywatcher 19:18:24 prxq: 4 x "Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU 5160 @ 3.00GHz" 19:19:07 <_Pb> has anyone here had success using ECL and lispbuilder-sdl? 19:19:31 RaceCondition [n=erik@82.131.74.61.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 19:19:39 <_Pb> on the ECL wiki, it says it's supported, but you need CFFI to install it, which I don't think works well with ECL 19:20:04 CFFI worked for me 19:20:18 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2CC92.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:20:26 <_Pb> hmm, I'll try it, then 19:21:12 -!- rfh [n=holzi199@212.186.133.195] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:21:59 lispm [n=joswig@e177159135.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:23:08 <_Pb> how much trouble was installing CFFI under ECL? 19:23:39 installing? 19:24:05 why would it be any more difficult than anything else? 19:24:06 -!- saba_ [n=saba@c213-89-102-144.bredband.comhem.se] has quit ["ejfiwj"] 19:24:43 <_Pb> because it seems to have a bunch of dependencies? I can't install it through asdf-install 19:24:48 <_Pb> sorry, I'm new to all of this 19:25:34 I don't use asdf-install. I just clone the repositories (if you're on linux, clbuild can do that for you). 19:25:36 coyo [n=unf@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:26:21 <_Pb> I'll try using clbuild then, thanks 19:27:43 jgracin [n=jgracin@vipnet3382.mobile.carnet.hr] has joined #lisp 19:28:33 soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has joined #lisp 19:28:55 leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 19:30:01 _pb: it should install fine with asdf-install 19:30:15 WarWeasle [n=brad@c-98-220-147-93.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:30:43 <_Pb> Guest44084: asdf-install'ing cffi or lispbuilder-sdl? 19:30:57 Hello, I have a question about SBCL: when I do this (+ 1190.33 -375.00) I get this: 815.32996. Is this a bug or am I a newb? 19:31:00 <_Pb> it can't find cffi for some reason 19:31:01 cffi 19:31:04 <_Pb> ah 19:31:06 <_Pb> hmm 19:31:50 <_Pb> well, the thing is, I can't seem to get asdf-install to work properly, either 19:31:52 WarWeasle: you need to learn about computers... 19:31:54 -!- Joreji_ [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:31:58 Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has joined #lisp 19:32:03 WarWeasle: http://docs.sun.com/source/806-3568/ncg_goldberg.html 19:32:05 WarWeasle: floating point numbers do not behave arithmetically 19:32:30 WarWeasle: they're for numerical approximation, not for compuatation of stuff like accounts 19:32:32 Ok. so i need to create a rational? 19:32:43 WarWeasle: or use integers scaled by a fixed amount 19:32:47 floats are approximated. 19:33:07 Thanks. I didn't think something like this would slip by you people 19:33:09 WarWeasle: like, store account balances in integral pennies instead of fractional dollars 19:33:51 Is there a metric money system built in or do I need to make one... 19:34:10 -!- guille_ [n=user@247.Red-81-35-175.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 19:34:43 WarWeasle: just use pennies in all your monetary computations 19:35:05 rahul: THanks. I'm doing bills :( and was curious. 19:35:10 scale it down for user interface output 19:35:12 "If you program for a while, you could lose track of the variables that you set to values." .... i'm not sure what that means, but i lol'ed... c.l.l has its moments :) 19:35:12 bipt [i=bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:35:42 drewc: sounds like a reason to avoid global variables to me 19:35:44 *Fade* chuckles 19:36:14 -!- joshee is now known as joshe 19:37:24 -!- WarWeasle [n=brad@c-98-220-147-93.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has left #lisp 19:37:38 Oh, and in great c.l.l tradition they've given the guy the answer rather then take him to task for doing it wrong. 19:38:11 At least here on #lisp we call you an idiot, then lead you to the right solution. 19:38:41 -!- _Pb [n=pb@75.131.194.186] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:39:00 -!- jleija [n=jleija@adsl-91-0-201.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit ["leaving"] 19:39:56 where's Mr. Naggum when you need him... :( 19:40:27 rahul: 6 feet under :( 19:42:20 -!- _deepfire_ is now known as _deepfire 19:42:38 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@vipnet3382.mobile.carnet.hr] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:43:18 knobo [n=user@ti0073a340-0817.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 19:44:35 is there a way to make sure an array with content like :(60 63 120 109 108 32 118 101 114 115 ...) is convertet to an utf-8 string? 19:44:59 "to make sure"? 19:45:12 <_3b__> do you mean decode it into a string, interpreting the octets as utf-8 encoded characters? 19:45:17 konr``` [n=user@189.98.83.62] has joined #lisp 19:45:17 you mean to make sure that it's a valid utf-8 sequence of octets? 19:45:55 _3b__: yes 19:46:11 <_3b__> minion: tell knobo about babel 19:46:52 sbcl has a conversion function built in 19:47:01 <_3b__> oops, no minion... http://common-lisp.net/project/babel/ has babel:octets-to-string 19:47:08 but you can open the stream as utf-8 encoded in the first place if that's what is happening 19:50:36 it should be easy to open the stream as utf-8. The result is from drakma, but I have set external-format-out and external-format-in to utf-8 and force-bnary is not set. But I still get the list of octets. 19:51:11 then something is clearly broken 19:51:26 since integers are not subtypep character :) 19:51:58 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:52:02 Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has joined #lisp 19:52:51 If FLEXI-STREAMS doesn't know the external format, the body is returned as an array of octets. If the body is empty, Drakma will return NIL. 19:53:17 I have (defvar *utf-8* (flex:make-external-format :utf-8 :eol-style :lf)) 19:53:36 Then I pass *utf-8* as an argument 19:53:38 balooga [n=00u4440@99.162.211.151] has joined #lisp 19:54:41 -!- konr`` [n=user@189.96.192.134] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:55:09 so, is that a external-format that flexi-streams knows? 19:55:10 mjsor [n=mjsor@75-93-57-35.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 19:55:30 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:57:31 Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has joined #lisp 19:59:18 rahul: looks like it should be correct 20:00:17 > (setf *hunchentoot-default-external-format* (flex:make-external-format 20:00:18 > :utf-8 :eol-style :lf)) 20:00:20 maybe 20:01:10 nowhere_man [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 20:01:13 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 20:02:19 -!- mjsor [n=mjsor@75-93-57-35.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [] 20:02:34 gibsonf1 [n=user@c-76-126-33-113.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:04:11 aha... This sequence can't be decoded using UTF-8 as it is too short. 1 octet missing at then end. 20:04:16 "all kinds of brand shoes..." " Cheap wholesale Converse shoes..." "Paypal payment..." i think it would be a spam filtering solution with enough efficiency if google even only filters messages starting with strange characters :p 20:05:48 nope, that was not it. I'll go with octets-to-string for now. 20:05:58 kenanb: (setf *hunchentoot-default-external-format* (flex:make-external-format :ascii)) ;) 20:06:30 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 20:06:36 -!- Eni [n=endy@064-090-158-071.plateautel.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:08:27 ruediger [n=quassel@93-82-7-85.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 20:09:22 rahul: :D or maybe (switch-to 'eternal-september) 20:10:57 rahul: probably mine is a bit too straightforward 20:11:05 _Pb [n=pb@75.131.194.186] has joined #lisp 20:11:18 but i indeed should switch to eternal-september 20:11:54 opening a web stream as utf-8 is the wrong thing to do, http is a binary protocol! 20:12:56 abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 20:13:10 *drewc* would use octets-to-string if/when he needs a string 20:14:13 kenanb1 [n=kenanb@88.238.179.200] has joined #lisp 20:14:38 Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-187-193.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 20:14:46 JohnnyL [i=excellen@ool-182f0b98.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 20:14:47 where can I find a text format downloadable dictionary? 20:15:13 Not a word list? 20:15:17 drewc: well, true 20:15:32 JohnnyL: Look at gutenberg.org 20:15:33 drewc: didn't know it was from http at first :) 20:15:46 JohnnyL: Websters dictionary. 20:18:04 ? 20:18:26 jtza8 a word list would be fantastic 20:19:40 JohnnyL: Debian usually has one, but if you can't find one, have a look at the aspell english spell checker. 20:21:25 iirc you could try looking for a file named "words" in /usr/share/ but that's what I remembre and "words" might be the wrong name. 20:21:58 there's also dict 20:22:02 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/freenode/x-iylbvadiahbbmxlb] has left #lisp 20:25:12 yvdriess [n=Beef@94-224-246-138.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 20:25:13 -!- abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:25:53 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-17-208.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 20:26:42 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:26:45 How is the need for a GC usually determined? 20:28:02 -!- _Pb [n=pb@75.131.194.186] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:29:37 tcr: amount of consing since last GC 20:30:01 Anyone else as much in love with StumpWM as I am? 20:30:44 -!- retroj [n=retroj@pdpc/supporter/active/retroj] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:31:22 -!- kenanb1 [n=kenanb@88.238.179.200] has left #lisp 20:32:13 -!- Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-187-193.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 20:32:15 -!- kenanb [n=kenanb@88.238.179.200] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:32:31 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-17-208.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:32:46 Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-187-193.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 20:33:50 danlei [n=user@pD9E2CC92.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:34:04 balooga1 [n=00u4440@adsl-99-162-211-151.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:35:42 -!- gibsonf1 [n=user@c-76-126-33-113.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:36:36 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-195-48-129.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:37:54 balooga2 [n=00u4440@adsl-99-162-211-151.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:38:56 jfc. c.l.l is still a morass. 20:39:32 abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 20:39:45 with emphasis on the more and the ass 20:40:23 not that you'd expect it to become more signal rich over time. 20:41:02 tarleb [n=tarleb@e179236077.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:41:26 plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-195-48-129.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 20:41:26 timor [n=timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 20:41:39 One way to improve is to concentrate on signal, and introduce more of it. 20:42:54 Though I stopped reading a month ago after trying that 20:44:08 this xahlee@gmail character is hilarious. 20:44:17 *Xach* has been a satisfied customer for many years 20:44:27 Fade: I'm a big fan myself. 20:45:07 Xah is posting again? I thought he had found other interests. 20:45:22 -!- Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-187-193.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 20:45:31 Oh, a Xah parody? 20:45:33 -!- mcspiff [n=user@142.68.78.64] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:45:37 Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-187-193.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 20:46:24 *tmh* almost wants to go read cll. 20:46:32 my jnewrc was way out of date. I think i'm in October at the moment. 20:47:58 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.247.103.231] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:49:27 -!- TJohn [i=as@118-160-172-107.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:49:46 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 20:51:47 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:55:19 -!- balooga [n=00u4440@99.162.211.151] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:55:46 -!- balooga1 [n=00u4440@adsl-99-162-211-151.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:55:55 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2CC92.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:01:23 -!- parolang [n=user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:07:05 SLIME is telling me after compilation: "1 style-warning", but how do I see that warning? 21:07:27 By scrolling up? 21:07:59 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 21:08:59 RaceCondition: You can press M-n, M-p in the .lisp buffer 21:09:53 RaceCondition: And you can use C-x ` (M-x next-error) to pop up the *SLIME Compilation* buffer and show the location 21:10:05 -!- abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:10:14 oh 21:10:22 *SLIME Compilation* is the window, I see 21:10:55 I was looking in the *Messages* buffer 21:11:42 what's *slime events* for? 21:11:48 *slime-events*, I mean 21:12:14 that's a log of the RPC calls and returns 21:12:33 for debugging slime itself 21:13:07 but it looks more like Lisp code than a log 21:13:07 <_deepfire> CLisp's RUN-PROGRAM is more anemic than ECL's 21:13:14 oh, it logs in Lisp format 21:13:34 the protocol is based on sexprs 21:14:23 It's pretty much exactly what is sent over the socket 21:15:25 partisan [n=partisan@121.124.124.117] has joined #lisp 21:16:31 How can I send a message with a condition? 21:16:47 e.g. 21:17:28 (alert () 'some-condition :var ) 21:17:49 That looks like what ASSERT does already do 21:17:58 *type 21:18:00 o 21:18:07 *assert 21:18:10 not allert 21:18:20 Then I don't get what you mean 21:18:29 kwinz3_ [n=kwinz@85.125.183.138] has joined #lisp 21:19:07 So it's (just to be clear): (assert () 'some-condition :var ) 21:19:07 and 21:19:37 I mean, how would I be able to get a message akin to (error "Something went wrong") 21:20:08 (assert (foop x) (x) "Something went wrong. ~S is not a foo." x) 21:20:13 -!- lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Client Quit] 21:20:51 ... yes, but... 21:21:03 That's just a simple-error condition. 21:21:15 cond: Error: DEFINITION-SOURCE of macro TESTMACRO did not contain meaningful information. <-- what's that mean? 21:21:31 it works for function foo, but not testmacro 21:21:46 oh, it hadn't been compiled... 21:22:21 jtza8: Then you have to specify a condition reporter in the DEFINE-CONDITION form of SOME-CONDITION 21:22:39 lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 21:22:41 Ah, thanks! 21:22:45 jtza8: via the (:report ...) clause 21:23:27 RaceCondition: Yeah that error message comes from me and it's unnecessarily obtuse 21:23:47 It says what went wrong, but that's not interesting to the user 21:25:22 tcr: that error message comes from you? :P what do you mean 21:25:28 or you mean you wrote it? 21:25:55 The latter 21:26:29 anyway... I added a (format t "testmacro running") sentence to testmacro just for testing, but where I can see the output? does the compiler swallow it? 21:27:12 Paste your code using lisppaste 21:27:45 can I only use lisppaste in this channel? :P 21:27:49 not that I have anything against it 21:28:11 saikatc [n=saikatc@adsl-76-228-82-245.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:28:27 RaceCondition pasted "testmacro output" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93511 21:29:10 -!- balooga2 [n=00u4440@adsl-99-162-211-151.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:29:13 what keeps someone else from using my username there though? 21:29:16 RaceCondition: lisppaste is just preferred here, due to above output :) 21:29:16 You have to define macros before their uses 21:29:27 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@85.125.183.138] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:29:37 And what makes you think that the output is swallowed? 21:30:17 tcr: but why did I get no error then? 21:30:36 Probably because you had a definition of TESTMACRO already in your image 21:30:40 and I was just asking whether it got swallowed or I could see it somewhere 21:30:57 e.g. because you C-c C-c'd the definitions separately, and first wrote the macro 21:31:13 You can see it in the slime-repl buffer 21:31:51 oh, cool, now I see it 21:32:00 and I actually compiled the whole file, not just the def 21:32:32 If you try to C-c C-k that in a fresh image (after ,restart-inferior-lisp), you'll see that it fails 21:32:41 Think about it: Why do macros have to be defined before their uses? 21:32:42 damn, I could use a 2560x1920 resolution 21:33:07 tcr: I thought of that actually, I was just testing out to see how it works when I put it after :) 21:33:13 RaceCondition: go work for Morgan Stanley in London 21:33:14 heh 21:33:25 rahul: what do you mean? 21:33:33 *Fade* laughs 21:33:34 their center monitor has that resolution 21:33:41 in the standard setup for traders 21:33:50 rahul: I'll just buy a 27 inch iMac... 21:33:51 a lot of those trading stations use many heads with very high resolutions. 21:33:54 two others around it at some lower resoliution, not sure what 21:33:59 when working on a deployable CL app of size, do you often package up the sub-portions or subsystems for loading via ASDF, or is that something that's just used for shared libraries in practice? 21:34:08 RaceCondition: It's good test of understanding; why do macros have to be defined before their uses? 21:34:14 I have 3 at some decent resolution at my workstation 21:34:24 tcr: I know how macros work, don't worry 21:34:29 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@adsl-76-228-82-245.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 21:34:38 I hope to acquire a 4th some time in the next 6 months :P 21:34:48 tcr: and if you insist I answer: the compiler needs to know about them before they're used, because otherwise it will think it's a function 21:34:52 a guy who sits near me has 4 already 21:35:03 saikatc [n=saikatc@adsl-76-228-82-245.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:35:09 I only have a 23" cinema display at the moment; I'd like to get two more. 21:35:11 tcr: ...probably a non-existent function, too 21:35:13 one in portrait. 21:35:23 RaceCondition: Yup 21:35:32 tcr: as I said, I was just hacking 21:35:48 my home setup is just a single 20 inch widescreen 21:35:59 I should get a second monitor, I guess 21:35:59 rahul: so you guys use multiple graphics cards or what? 21:36:06 RaceCondition: yep two quadros 21:36:14 my current setup causes me to juggle a really improbably number of virtual desktops. 21:36:15 that's standard setup across the company 21:36:19 I'd probably be very satisfied with a 27" iMac + maybe an external 1920x1200 monitor 21:36:23 s/improbably/improbable. 21:36:32 rahul: what do you do? software? 21:36:36 RaceCondition: yeah 21:36:44 lisp? 21:36:48 Fade: I wish 21:36:48 rahul: so all developers in your company have 3 monitors? 21:36:56 RaceCondition: To be precise: Undefined-function warnings are defered until the end of a compilation unit; at the end of a compilation unit (usually a file is a compilation unit, but see with-compilation-unit) warnings are compared with the state at that point, and if the previously undefined function is defined, the warning won't be shown 21:36:58 RaceCondition: 2 or 3, usually 21:37:12 for some reason I had 3 right away 21:37:17 doing financial stuff in anything other than lisp sounds like a serious pain in the ass. 21:37:27 tcr: well that could be applied to macros as well, though :) it wouldn't be very complicated, or does it have some implications? 21:37:30 ditto here. Most people at work have 2-3 monitors. 21:37:33 Fade: why, specifically? 21:37:38 RaceCondition: No it does not make sense for macros 21:37:57 Fade: we're not really managing all the reams of data. mostly presenting information to traders 21:37:57 mostly because I don't really speak algol syntaxes natively any more. :P 21:38:02 I'm with my sister's 1280x800 MacBook because my 1920x1200 MacBook Pro was stolen and I can't use my external display because I don't have a mini-DVI converter... 21:38:10 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.91.2"] 21:38:11 Fade: s/financial// then ;) 21:38:19 yeah, well 21:38:28 does anyone feel my pain? 21:38:34 RaceCondition: What is the reason that the compiler thinks that an unknown form is a function call? 21:38:44 then there are the issues with how non-lisp languages handle numbers. 21:38:56 certainly, being condemned to use Apple computers is painful 21:38:57 tcr: because of what you just said moments ago :P 21:39:05 it's all just "good enough for rock and roll". 21:39:18 Fade: yeah, we have internal math libraries for dealing with monetary values 21:39:37 in fact, we have internal libraries for all kinds of crazy stuff 21:39:39 you're using java? 21:39:50 there's an in-house pub/sub system here 21:40:01 Fade: I am. C# is used for the GUI 21:40:19 the overlords/architects are all insanely conservative? 21:40:25 clojure is pretty sweet. :) 21:40:28 rahul: So you're "that Lisp guy"? 21:40:34 rahul: you do financial computing/apps? 21:40:42 -!- lypanov [n=lypanov@s5591e4de.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [] 21:41:16 milanj [n=milan@79.101.180.172] has joined #lisp 21:41:20 tcr: well, Vassil Nikolov or however you spell his name predates me at MS 21:41:22 lypanov [n=lypanov@s5591e4de.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #lisp 21:41:28 RaceCondition: yeah 21:42:00 currently working on their loan trading application but will transition to risk reporting across all of credit soon 21:43:08 which is pretty important, since they have a $50 billion portfolio of loans :P 21:43:22 how many of you actually work with lisp? 21:43:27 many of which can't be cleanly hedged 21:43:32 I mean, do lisp that their work 21:43:32 RaceCondition: none, officially 21:43:41 that=at 21:43:52 really? there are so few lisp jobs out there? 21:44:01 or only the real freaks get those? 21:44:11 oh I thought you meant at Morgan Stanley 21:44:18 no, in here, there are many 21:44:24 yeah, that's what I meant 21:44:27 I used to a couple years ago 21:44:35 I haven't heard of a single Lisp job in my country... 21:44:40 was a contractor for ITA 21:44:50 RaceCondition: where? 21:44:55 oh estonia? 21:44:57 Estonia, Northern-Europe 21:45:06 well, there's plenty in Northern Europe 21:45:12 maybe not specifically in Estonia 21:45:26 rahul: how did you know .ee was Estonia? most people wouldn't... 21:45:26 but Norway and Sweeden have quite a bit of lisp 21:45:36 rahul: yeah, that I know 21:45:54 probably there's some in Estonia, too, in the telecom/high-tech/academic etc sector 21:45:58 I know too many "crazy russians" hehe 21:46:14 gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:46:17 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-159-209-174.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 21:46:18 haven't heard anything about lisp in any of the baltic states myself 21:46:20 I assume you also live in Europe? 21:46:31 no, new york city 21:46:36 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-159-209-174.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 21:46:44 retroj [n=retroj@pdpc/supporter/active/retroj] has joined #lisp 21:46:51 -!- Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-187-193.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:46:55 many immigrant families from all over eastern europe 21:46:57 so how do you know about the baltics and northern europe? 21:47:03 oh, yeah 21:47:09 sadly 21:47:46 sure all americans are massively undereducated cowboys 21:49:14 eastern europeans are educated cowboys :P 21:49:20 Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-187-193.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 21:49:24 I can't even lasso, I'm just massively undereducated 21:49:59 pr_ [n=pr@p579CA89D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:51:08 francogrex [n=user@188.143-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 21:53:05 -!- francogrex [n=user@188.143-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:53:05 rahul: I think IT education in general is better the west you go 21:53:27 NNshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-37-82-253-45-49.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 21:53:29 also the software industry here is just child's play... 21:53:35 the way they teach math in north america is just awful. 21:53:43 until you get to university 21:53:45 Fade: you mean in high schools or universities? 21:53:47 yeah 21:54:17 do they actually teach anything anymore in schools? I thought all the teachers were afraid of being sued for harrassment... 21:54:32 er.. 21:54:34 -!- Nshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-53-82-65-38-59.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:54:39 blah. offtopic. 21:54:45 <_deepfire> RaceCondition, my guess was that scandinavian countries have pretty good CS 21:55:10 _deepfire: yes, I was referring more to ourselves here... 21:55:15 Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has joined #lisp 21:56:24 *_deepfire* watches git-cvsimport plowing through decades of clisp development history 21:56:30 -!- Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-187-193.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 21:57:16 abugosh [n=Adium@65-78-105-20.c3-0.drf-ubr1.atw-drf.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 21:57:56 _deepfire: did you know about git://sbcl.boinkor.net/clisp.git ? 21:58:22 <_deepfire> fe[nl]ix, no, that'd save me the effort, thanks! 21:58:25 CS in america is basically all theoretical crap 21:58:43 only a few programs even allow you to learn about practical software engineering 21:59:04 in Europe, there seems to be more availability of practical education in software 21:59:20 there's french people in europe, though 22:00:43 heh 22:01:22 probably as many in NYC as there are anywhere in eastern europe, actually 22:01:36 bill`: that's a fortunate thing 22:02:50 anton [n=Miranda@93.125.49.66] has joined #lisp 22:04:07 ikki [n=ikki@189.139.217.33] has joined #lisp 22:05:34 -!- jtza8 [n=jtza8@wbs-196-2-119-27.wbs.co.za] has quit ["Zzz"] 22:06:43 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:09:47 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:13:29 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 22:13:30 <_deepfire> Hmm, clisp's port seems to promise the most trouble. 22:14:08 SBCL son 22:14:18 reverse core dump say what 22:14:54 rahul: CS in america is disgustingly practical. 22:14:59 at least lately. 22:15:22 it's practical if you want to spend your days as a java programmer. :) 22:15:23 litherp2 [n=piratman@ool-182ff1c9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 22:15:27 exactly 22:15:45 it's all design patterns, java, and project management/software 'engineering' lately. 22:16:00 spits out more code monkeys than talented hackers, imo. 22:16:32 <_deepfire> The pythonisation of SICP could be regarded as being aligned to practicality I guess. 22:16:50 indeed. 22:17:02 and it wasn't just MIT 22:17:31 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177159135.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:17:34 UMass Amherst did the same thing -- it dropped its SICP course in favor of a "Programming Methodologies" course, which was, specifically 'learn how to use Java, Design Patterns, SVN, and Eclipse' 22:17:41 I wish I could speak more highly of it :\ 22:18:48 that's a bummer, all around. 22:19:05 it's almost insulting 22:19:12 i don't think any design patter book tells you to actually apply them verbatim. they're more of a way to identify patterns in your code. 22:20:22 Head First Design Patterns labels itself as being 'practical' 22:20:52 I know what I am going to ask on design patterns, if we come to those in my courses 22:20:58 design pattern books are the CS equivalent of "hooked on phonics" 22:21:07 it's quite possible that some people see bigger patterns in the design than others. 22:21:22 sure, they can be useful, but you have to know enough scope to see where and how. 22:23:04 i'm sure there's an aphorism in there somewhere.. 22:23:12 -!- pbusser [n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit ["Client Quit"] 22:23:13 "That is far too practical to be useful." , perhaps. 22:24:03 design patterns are frequently used in enterprise software. 22:24:22 mu 22:24:24 for some reason, I managed to make my REPL in Emacs read-only... 22:24:25 -!- varjag [n=eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:24:44 Eh yeah there's a stupid bug I've seen that too 22:24:56 You can try M-: (setq inhibit-read-only t) RET 22:25:11 then go the point-max of the buffer, press RET 22:25:15 varjag [n=eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 22:25:25 if a new repl prompt appears, do M-: (setq inhibit-read-only nil) RET 22:25:47 hmm, the first thing was enough 22:26:02 Only do that temporarily 22:26:08 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:26:21 OK 22:29:59 So I think a little pattern-based macro system would actually be useful 22:30:47 varjagg [n=eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 22:30:48 You actually specify your macro's syntax in a more fine-grained way that way, having positive effects on automatic arglist display 22:32:04 Has anyone implemented one in CL? 22:35:12 -!- spec[afk] is now known as mrSpec 22:35:17 -!- hypno [n=hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has quit ["leaving"] 22:36:06 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:36:54 i need some ellaboration on what you mean by 'pattern-based macro system' 22:36:55 :) 22:38:17 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 22:39:45 -!- yvdriess [n=Beef@94-224-246-138.access.telenet.be] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:40:12 tcr: as opposed to the destructuring lambda-list already in macros? 22:41:31 rahul: That's a) pretty primitive, and b) is hidden in the macro-function 22:42:44 hidden? 22:43:16 tcr: you want something like the ... in some schemes? 22:43:25 Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-187-193.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 22:43:27 or do you want a full BNF parser? 22:43:29 -!- konr``` [n=user@189.98.83.62] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:44:01 konr [n=user@189.98.83.62] has joined #lisp 22:44:08 i.e., do you want to be able to declare the syntax of defclass or loop directly in the lambda list? 22:44:32 clhs-style bnf parser would be nice, yes. But I didn't think that far 22:44:58 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 22:45:16 I'd support having a ... kind of thing 22:45:34 Just pattern matching, probably like what's in the scheme standard though I have never used it 22:45:36 full BNF is kind of overkill and useless for arglist 22:46:14 unless you want to show multiple possibilities as the arglist 22:46:20 -!- pr_ is now known as pr 22:46:24 -!- varjag [n=eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:46:25 destructuring-bind + typep in sequentially tried clauses 22:46:34 No, I want to do the right thing depending on the context 22:48:10 slash_ [n=drevil@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 22:48:12 well, then arglist display is going to be insane 22:48:24 that's basically BNF 22:48:37 you can't show BNF in one clear line 22:48:44 it's a decision tree 22:49:00 and if context matters, then you need backtracking, too 22:49:03 Sure and you traverse it with the already typed input 22:49:12 and then what do you display? 22:49:29 traversing it results in multiple possibilities 22:49:54 So you show multiple possibilities 22:50:00 and going forward you have a tree of possibilities from where you are now 22:50:17 kenanb [n=kenanb@88.238.179.200] has joined #lisp 22:50:46 you're basically asking for something like showing what partial C++ syntax could mean 22:51:21 well, C++ syntax is based on semantics as well as tokens 22:51:25 so it's even worse 22:51:36 although that actually reduces the possibilities 22:52:12 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-123-51.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:52:28 In Lisp, it's pretty easy because you mostly have to distinguish between "Is this a symbol or a cons" 22:52:50 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:54:02 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:55:15 Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has joined #lisp 22:55:44 -!- hicx174_ [n=hicx174@211.44.210.50] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:56:11 -!- Zephyrus__ is now known as Zephyrus 23:03:28 tcr: um not if you're going to be context-sensitive like loop's syntax 23:03:38 then the exact symbol matters 23:04:01 and then you need to add the special case of keywords even if you're not allowing BNF 23:04:42 You brought up BNF and LOOP 23:05:08 you haven't proposed any alternative description of what you want... 23:05:50 I did. 23:06:06 Anyway that was just a random thought I had while writing this macro I'm writing 23:06:27 -!- slash_ [n=drevil@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 23:06:42 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-194-241.netcologne.de] has quit [Success] 23:07:44 -!- varjagg [n=eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:08:53 weev [n=tomato@locke.rains.net] has joined #lisp 23:09:00 timothy [n=419king@pool-71-188-31-6.cmdnnj.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:09:27 kloeri [i=kloeri@freenode/staff/exherbo.kloeri] has joined #lisp 23:09:33 coicxerqvult [n=lnh@97-117-95-175.slkc.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:09:33 we have but small demands to stop flooding freenode please go here to view: http://gnaa.peoplesprimary.com/demands.txt IF THE DEMANDS ARENT MET THE FLOODS WONT STOP 1-360-215-1281 23:09:33 we have but small demands to stop flooding freenode please go here to view: http://gnaa.peoplesprimary.com/demands.txt IF THE DEMANDS ARENT MET THE FLOODS WONT STOP 1-360-215-1281 23:09:33 gvkrwwlvdve [n=ydhbyrgg@97-117-95-175.slkc.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:09:33 we have but small demands to stop flooding freenode please go here to view: http://gnaa.peoplesprimary.com/demands.txt IF THE DEMANDS ARENT MET THE FLOODS WONT STOP 1-360-215-1281 23:09:33 we have but small demands to stop flooding freenode please go here to view: http://gnaa.peoplesprimary.com/demands.txt IF THE DEMANDS ARENT MET THE FLOODS WONT STOP 1-360-215-1281 23:09:34 axpbebbefl [n=fdppdzq@97-117-95-175.slkc.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:09:34 we have but small demands to stop flooding freenode please go here to view: http://gnaa.peoplesprimary.com/demands.txt IF THE DEMANDS ARENT MET THE FLOODS WONT STOP 1-360-215-1281 23:09:34 we have but small demands to stop flooding freenode please go here to view: http://gnaa.peoplesprimary.com/demands.txt IF THE DEMANDS ARENT MET THE FLOODS WONT STOP 1-360-215-1281 23:09:34 we have but small demands to stop flooding freenode please go here to view: http://gnaa.peoplesprimary.com/demands.txt IF THE DEMANDS ARENT MET THE FLOODS WONT STOP 1-360-215-1281 23:09:34 we have but small demands to stop flooding freenode please go here to view: http://gnaa.peoplesprimary.com/demands.txt IF THE DEMANDS ARENT MET THE FLOODS WONT STOP 1-360-215-1281 23:09:35 we have but small demands to stop flooding freenode please go here to view: http://gnaa.peoplesprimary.com/demands.txt IF THE DEMANDS ARENT MET THE FLOODS WONT STOP 1-360-215-1281 23:09:36 -!- coicxerqvult [n=lnh@97-117-95-175.slkc.qwest.net] has quit [K-lined] 23:09:36 -!- gvkrwwlvdve [n=ydhbyrgg@97-117-95-175.slkc.qwest.net] has quit [K-lined] 23:09:36 -!- axpbebbefl [n=fdppdzq@97-117-95-175.slkc.qwest.net] has quit [K-lined] 23:09:45 naxnkasfkrp [n=lmz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 23:09:45 we have but small demands to stop flooding freenode please go here to view: http://gnaa.peoplesprimary.com/demands.txt IF THE DEMANDS ARENT MET THE FLOODS WONT STOP 1-360-215-1281 23:09:45 we have but small demands to stop flooding freenode please go here to view: http://gnaa.peoplesprimary.com/demands.txt IF THE DEMANDS ARENT MET THE FLOODS WONT STOP 1-360-215-1281 23:09:46 bywgclwe [n=uwqsnbvd@gprs-prointernet-ffe3c200-10.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 23:09:46 we have but small demands to stop flooding freenode please go here to view: http://gnaa.peoplesprimary.com/demands.txt IF THE DEMANDS ARENT MET THE FLOODS WONT STOP 1-360-215-1281 23:09:46 we have but small demands to stop flooding freenode please go here to view: http://gnaa.peoplesprimary.com/demands.txt IF THE DEMANDS ARENT MET THE FLOODS WONT STOP 1-360-215-1281 23:09:46 we have but small demands to stop flooding freenode please go here to view: http://gnaa.peoplesprimary.com/demands.txt IF THE DEMANDS ARENT MET THE FLOODS WONT STOP 1-360-215-1281 23:09:47 -!- naxnkasfkrp [n=lmz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [K-lined] 23:09:47 -!- gz [n=gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [K-lined] 23:09:47 we have but small demands to stop flooding freenode please go here to view: http://gnaa.peoplesprimary.com/demands.txt IF THE DEMANDS ARENT MET THE FLOODS WONT STOP 1-360-215-1281 23:09:47 whoa, the gnaa is still around. 23:09:48 -!- bywgclwe [n=uwqsnbvd@gprs-prointernet-ffe3c200-10.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [K-lined] 23:09:58 varjagg [n=eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 23:10:02 ugq [i=stryyke1@ppp118-208-216-105.lns20.hba1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:10:02 we have but small demands to stop flooding freenode please go here to view: http://gnaa.peoplesprimary.com/demands.txt IF THE DEMANDS ARENT MET THE FLOODS WONT STOP 1-360-215-1281 23:10:02 we have but small demands to stop flooding freenode please go here to view: http://gnaa.peoplesprimary.com/demands.txt IF THE DEMANDS ARENT MET THE FLOODS WONT STOP 1-360-215-1281 23:10:02 orhxcac [i=stryyke1@ppp118-208-216-105.lns20.hba1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:10:02 we have but small demands to stop flooding freenode please go here to view: http://gnaa.peoplesprimary.com/demands.txt IF THE DEMANDS ARENT MET THE FLOODS WONT STOP 1-360-215-1281 23:10:02 we have but small demands to stop flooding freenode please go here to view: http://gnaa.peoplesprimary.com/demands.txt IF THE DEMANDS ARENT MET THE FLOODS WONT STOP 1-360-215-1281 23:10:02 -!- ugq [i=stryyke1@ppp118-208-216-105.lns20.hba1.internode.on.net] has quit [Broken pipe] 23:10:02 -!- orhxcac [i=stryyke1@ppp118-208-216-105.lns20.hba1.internode.on.net] has quit [Broken pipe] 23:10:03 wehzace [i=stryyke1@ppp118-208-216-105.lns20.hba1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:10:03 we have but small demands to stop flooding freenode please go here to view: http://gnaa.peoplesprimary.com/demands.txt IF THE DEMANDS ARENT MET THE FLOODS WONT STOP 1-360-215-1281 23:10:03 we have but small demands to stop flooding freenode please go here to view: http://gnaa.peoplesprimary.com/demands.txt IF THE DEMANDS ARENT MET THE FLOODS WONT STOP 1-360-215-1281 23:10:03 -!- wehzace [i=stryyke1@ppp118-208-216-105.lns20.hba1.internode.on.net] has quit [Broken pipe] 23:10:09 xgubzfswy [n=ebsgpvx@slo13-3-88-186-199-8.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 23:10:09 we have but small demands to stop flooding freenode please go here to view: http://gnaa.peoplesprimary.com/demands.txt IF THE DEMANDS ARENT MET THE FLOODS WONT STOP 1-360-215-1281 23:10:09 we have but small demands to stop flooding freenode please go here to view: http://gnaa.peoplesprimary.com/demands.txt IF THE DEMANDS ARENT MET THE FLOODS WONT STOP 1-360-215-1281 23:10:10 we have but small demands to stop flooding freenode please go here to view: http://gnaa.peoplesprimary.com/demands.txt IF THE DEMANDS ARENT MET THE FLOODS WONT STOP 1-360-215-1281 23:10:10 -!- xgubzfswy [n=ebsgpvx@slo13-3-88-186-199-8.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [K-lined] 23:10:21 At its core - what does a FASL do? Does it represent just memory objects or does it represent load-time code as well? 23:10:37 I wonder what makes people tick that way 23:10:38 krrooyppgw [n=wgbgfibb@88.238.179.200] has joined #lisp 23:10:38 we have but small demands to stop flooding freenode please go here to view: http://gnaa.peoplesprimary.com/demands.txt IF THE DEMANDS ARENT MET THE FLOODS WONT STOP 1-360-215-1281 23:10:38 we have but small demands to stop flooding freenode please go here to view: http://gnaa.peoplesprimary.com/demands.txt IF THE DEMANDS ARENT MET THE FLOODS WONT STOP 1-360-215-1281 23:10:39 -!- krrooyppgw [n=wgbgfibb@88.238.179.200] has quit [K-lined] 23:10:39 -!- kenanb [n=kenanb@88.238.179.200] has quit [K-lined] 23:11:11 bigpresh [n=bigpresh@freenode/sponsor/shellium.bigpresh] has joined #lisp 23:11:14 Modius: Both 23:11:23 ruediger_ [n=quassel@93-82-1-161.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 23:11:35 tcr: How can I distinguish - is it a matter of eval-when compile vs not? 23:11:44 -!- 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please go here to view: http://gnaa.peoplesprimary.com/demands.txt IF THE DEMANDS ARENT MET THE FLOODS WONT STOP 1-360-215-1281 irc.gnaa.fr #gnaa 23:15:40 -!- lzgd [n=ikpzn@89.180.223.150] has quit [K-lined] 23:15:46 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Xach 23:16:05 xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 23:16:07 asxwgnlva [n=qndidav@5ad6b3eb.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 23:16:07 we have but small demands to stop flooding freenode please go here to view: http://gnaa.peoplesprimary.com/demands.txt IF THE DEMANDS ARENT MET THE FLOODS WONT STOP 1-360-215-1281 irc.gnaa.fr #gnaa 23:16:07 we have but small demands to stop flooding freenode please go here to view: http://gnaa.peoplesprimary.com/demands.txt IF THE DEMANDS ARENT MET THE FLOODS WONT STOP 1-360-215-1281 irc.gnaa.fr #gnaa 23:16:08 -!- asxwgnlva [n=qndidav@5ad6b3eb.bb.sky.com] has quit [K-lined] 23:16:21 tkzwgvv [n=olasffb@host-89-229-105-16.szczecin.mm.pl] has joined #lisp 23:16:21 we have but small demands to stop flooding freenode please go here to view: http://gnaa.peoplesprimary.com/demands.txt IF THE DEMANDS ARENT MET THE FLOODS WONT STOP 1-360-215-1281 irc.gnaa.fr #gnaa 23:16:21 we have but small demands to stop flooding freenode please go here to view: http://gnaa.peoplesprimary.com/demands.txt IF THE DEMANDS ARENT MET THE FLOODS WONT STOP 1-360-215-1281 irc.gnaa.fr #gnaa 23:16:21 -!- tkzwgvv [n=olasffb@host-89-229-105-16.szczecin.mm.pl] has quit [Excess Flood] 23:16:28 iguhz [n=obqcmgwb@host-89-229-105-16.szczecin.mm.pl] has joined #lisp 23:16:28 we have but small demands to stop flooding freenode please go here to view: http://gnaa.peoplesprimary.com/demands.txt IF THE DEMANDS ARENT MET THE FLOODS WONT STOP 1-360-215-1281 irc.gnaa.fr #gnaa 23:16:28 we have but small demands to stop flooding freenode please go here to view: http://gnaa.peoplesprimary.com/demands.txt IF THE DEMANDS ARENT MET THE FLOODS WONT STOP 1-360-215-1281 irc.gnaa.fr #gnaa 23:16:29 -!- iguhz [n=obqcmgwb@host-89-229-105-16.szczecin.mm.pl] has quit [K-lined] 23:16:54 *Adlai* thinks it may be time for a +R 23:16:59 ^ 23:17:03 What's that do? 23:17:03 tcr: I'm deploying a lispworks EXE - I'd like some things to be evaluated only after access to some flag ("loading for deployment") or something is true, vs at complie time of the original FASL, if possible. 23:17:07 o/ 23:17:10 Xach: only registered users may join #lisp 23:17:14 ugh 23:17:15 -!- Xach has set mode +R 23:17:19 not quite 23:17:27 Xach, it means that unidentified users can't talk 23:17:35 test 23:17:42 however, it sends a message to them, so real people can understand why they can't talk 23:18:03 nwutmmazuu [n=ygtpstuk@87-194-32-212.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 23:18:09 lvitkmixkppr [n=lfg@87-194-32-212.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 23:18:15 -!- lvitkmixkppr [n=lfg@87-194-32-212.bethere.co.uk] has quit [K-lined] 23:18:15 -!- nwutmmazuu [n=ygtpstuk@87-194-32-212.bethere.co.uk] has quit [K-lined] 23:18:18 -!- DarlaBoerup [i=l0nqDjcD@pool-173-57-170-7.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 23:18:22 Modius: then execute it from your toplevel function 23:18:27 Adlai: oh, wrong one, then. 23:18:30 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["leaving"] 23:18:33 xbtvu [n=fkocmxua@0x5da06bc2.cpe.ge-0-1-0-1104.sbynqu1.customer.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 23:18:36 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 23:18:37 sykopomp, you were thinking of +r 23:18:38 but yeah, this seems to be doing the trick. 23:18:40 weird, freenode didn't identify me properly 23:18:42 Adlai: yeah 23:18:44 Modius: or do you mean when you're building the executable? 23:18:46 rahul: I don't fully understand what you mean - what function where? 23:18:55 -!- xbtvu [n=fkocmxua@0x5da06bc2.cpe.ge-0-1-0-1104.sbynqu1.customer.tele.dk] has quit [Broken pipe] 23:19:04 rahul: I"m building an executable - it will tend to use FASLs that I'd want to do different things depending on if there's a deploy build 23:19:06 Modius: the function that you specify when creating the .exe... 23:19:27 Modius: you want to have a past action depend on a future action? 23:19:39 -!- PovAddict [n=nicolas@synecdoche/developer/povaddict] has left #lisp 23:19:41 or do you want something special to happen when you launch from a .exe? 23:19:51 rahul: I'd like to do something like defvar before loading anything else, if THAT would override the defvar in a fasl 23:19:59 qpwhfiroc [n=zscdimxy@81.147.31.93] has joined #lisp 23:19:59 -!- qpwhfiroc [n=zscdimxy@81.147.31.93] has quit [Broken pipe] 23:20:01 kue [n=biyaxdxw@81.147.31.93] has joined #lisp 23:20:01 -!- kue [n=biyaxdxw@81.147.31.93] has quit [Broken pipe] 23:20:04 (defvar mode t) (load-everything-else) from the deploy script 23:20:06 qiafzap [n=oihll@81.147.31.93] has joined #lisp 23:20:06 -!- qiafzap [n=oihll@81.147.31.93] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 23:20:08 Modius: I can't understand anything you're saying 23:20:45 tqynvfhaok [n=iofvlgko@cpc2-uddi8-0-0-cust812.uddi.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 23:20:46 sgrooyccccf [n=sbwcrre@cpc2-uddi8-0-0-cust812.uddi.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 23:20:46 qegocuzbr [n=ewmaunzs@cpc2-uddi8-0-0-cust812.uddi.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 23:20:47 lintfzbzh [n=tupvcna@cpc2-uddi8-0-0-cust812.uddi.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 23:20:58 Modius: saying "I want to use a hammer on a screw" doesn't explain why you're using a hammer in the first place 23:21:04 -!- sgrooyccccf [n=sbwcrre@cpc2-uddi8-0-0-cust812.uddi.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [K-lined] 23:21:04 -!- lintfzbzh [n=tupvcna@cpc2-uddi8-0-0-cust812.uddi.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [K-lined] 23:21:04 -!- qegocuzbr [n=ewmaunzs@cpc2-uddi8-0-0-cust812.uddi.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [K-lined] 23:21:04 -!- tqynvfhaok [n=iofvlgko@cpc2-uddi8-0-0-cust812.uddi.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [K-lined] 23:21:14 -!- xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:21:16 you're explaining what you want to implement, not what you want to happen 23:21:46 what actual effect are you trying to make? 23:21:47 vwcgm [n=wtoz@ppp118-209-102-251.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:21:47 -!- vwcgm [n=wtoz@ppp118-209-102-251.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [K-lined] 23:22:37 xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 23:22:54 trfqbbwxb [n=tog@247.Red-88-17-245.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:23:21 -!- trfqbbwxb [n=tog@247.Red-88-17-245.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [K-lined] 23:23:31 vwtrzeyogwk [n=mfdkavx@219-90-186-11.ip.adam.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:23:32 -!- vwtrzeyogwk [n=mfdkavx@219-90-186-11.ip.adam.com.au] has quit [K-lined] 23:23:34 flgcnfsricr [n=tvlsytmp@adsl-074-237-058-203.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 23:23:45 hngbxpzftmbg [n=xcrfgaga@pool-173-70-62-69.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:23:55 -!- hngbxpzftmbg 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[n=alawson@88.Red-80-26-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:41:34 addled [n=adl@77.208.161.58] has joined #lisp 23:43:53 quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242357571.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:44:40 -!- aidalgol [i=aidan@69.61.15.114] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:46:25 Phoodus [i=foo@174-17-22-62.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:46:37 -!- sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-123-51.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 23:46:50 prxq [n=mommer@f051178118.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 23:47:15 what a fuckup 23:48:16 chiiph [n=chiiph@190.1.21.180] has joined #lisp 23:48:35 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-123-51.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:50:04 p_l: sorry to bother you... so, in your example for raytracer, I should run clisp -c raytracer.asd to build... right? 23:50:23 jleija [n=jleija@adsl-91-0-201.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 23:51:52 -!- moesenle [n=moesenle@atradig124.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:55:31 -!- gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:55:54 how long does this k-line last? 23:56:51 seangrove [n=user@c-67-188-112-83.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:56:54 -!- tarleb [n=tarleb@e179236077.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:57:09 -!- quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242357571.dsl.bell.ca] has left #lisp 23:57:25 timor: no idea, but getting a new ip probably helps 23:58:07 prxq: is this now like a netsplit situation here? 23:58:26 fractali` [n=user@cpe-98-27-191-210.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:58:59 -!- knobo [n=user@ti0073a340-0817.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:00:05 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:02:24 freenode starts to resemble efnet. :P 00:02:49 -!- addled [n=adl@77.208.161.58] has left #lisp 00:02:51 I wonder what the reason is 00:03:58 there are enough people here to cause spammers and assclowns to concentrate on the network. 00:04:02 timor: it is not a netsplit, and I don't know what a 'similar' situation would look like 00:04:07 -!- litherp2 [n=piratman@ool-182ff1c9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.7/20091221164558]"] 00:06:04 chiiph: nope, read asdf documentation for that - basically, link *.asd files to one of the directories mentioned in asdf:*central-registry* then use (asdf:load-system 'raytracer) 00:06:06 in this case, it looks like javascript spam bots 00:06:33 if the server messages are to be believed. 00:07:12 -!- jleija [n=jleija@adsl-91-0-201.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit ["leaving"] 00:08:33 p_l: ok... but isn't there a way to quick-test the package? 00:08:50 *JohnnyL* has cygwin. Where can I get a free dict word list? 00:09:29 -!- Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:12:27 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@166.205.139.91] has joined #lisp 00:14:14 -!- lypanov [n=lypanov@s5591e4de.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has left #lisp 00:14:53 JohnnyL: from debian 00:15:04 :P 00:15:10 -!- Zephyrus [n=emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Client Quit] 00:15:25 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.112.195] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:15:28 JohnnyL: are you trying to get an online dictionary or what? 00:16:01 can a Lisp macro (or function?) access it's calling scope/code as well? maybe even modify it? 00:17:05 yep, play around with stuff like (let ((n 0)) (lambda () (incf n))) at the repl 00:17:27 um, how is that related? 00:17:46 oh, _calling_ scope. My bad >_> 00:17:55 :P 00:18:14 -!- anton [n=Miranda@93.125.49.66] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:18:18 setf expanders may be the type of thing you're looking for 00:18:37 I'm not looking for anything, I'm just exploring and getting familiar with Lisp :) 00:18:51 trying to get to know what, in general, I can do with it 00:18:55 (besides everything) 00:20:02 well, incf does modify the n in the "calling" scope 00:20:14 so yeah, setf expanders 00:20:31 well, I meant more like code 00:20:33 define-modify-macro is the simplest way to do this 00:20:41 the REPL's + is kinda like C's argv :) 00:20:55 erm, - 00:21:56 (statement1) (statement2) (statement3 (my-macro)) (statement4) <-- can my-macro add code, say, BEFORE statement3? or maybe even before statement2? 00:22:08 RaceCondition: no 00:22:10 no 00:22:15 never? 00:22:18 never 00:22:29 -!- prxq [n=mommer@f051178118.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:22:31 evaluation in lisp is left to right 00:22:37 I thought there was a way to do, say, caller.getCode.insertStuffAt 00:22:45 the evaluation rules can only be changed by a macro, within the macro's espansion 00:22:56 what is a "caller"? 00:23:15 macros are not "called", technically, they are expanded 00:23:31 well anyway, the point remains the same 00:23:45 I thought the compiler maybe passes more of the environmet to the macro for modification 00:23:52 not for modification 00:24:07 just to access stuff like local macro definitions 00:24:17 OK 00:24:53 and the environment doesn't include the surrounding code, just information about what is defined in that surrounding code 00:28:24 -!- cools [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:31:07 rahul I need a text format dictionary to extra words (for password creation). 00:31:17 rahul I am running windows, not linux. 00:31:48 JohnnyL: testing strength or creating combinations of words to create passwords? 00:32:08 rahul the later. 00:33:03 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@166.205.139.91] has quit [Client Quit] 00:34:03 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-141-156-235-91.res.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:34:33 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@166.205.139.91] has joined #lisp 00:37:36 JohnnyL: why is the default word list not enough for that? 00:38:16 gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:39:40 -!- macdice [n=user@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:40:04 http://wordlist.sourceforge.net/ 00:41:08 i couldn't find a dict in cygwin's /usr/share 00:41:43 zelig [n=zelig@189.60.42.13] has joined #lisp 00:41:52 rahul wow, thanks. 00:43:25 -!- Athas`` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:43:48 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-17-208.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 00:43:50 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 00:44:21 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 00:44:27 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 00:47:15 JohnnyL: thank debian's dpkg -S command, combined with the corresponding package's description :) 00:48:36 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.180.172] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:53:09 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.211.93] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 00:54:50 rahul good tip. :) 00:56:18 i recently saw a game created in lisp where the footprint ram image was 74 megs. And it had at least a magnitude less features than a game from , say, 1985 (ultima iv), which was written <40k. 00:57:40 1850 times bigger. thats crazy. 00:57:41 reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 00:57:42 JohnnyL: When the game contains the whole compiler, debugger etc., then no shit sherlock :> 00:57:43 what does the 'p' stand for in 'equalp'? 00:57:53 RaceCondition predicate. 00:58:06 rdd`` [n=rdd@c83-250-152-128.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 00:58:24 p_l I suppose what's needed is a lisp to c source generator. 00:58:41 JohnnyL: um... and how is 'predicate' related to coercing, say, a 3.0 and 3 so that they are equal? 00:59:12 RaceCondition: "P" is a generic suffix. 00:59:25 RaceCondition: it's not specific to the particular coercion rules of equalp 00:59:27 RaceCondition I just gave you the definition. I didn't write it! 00:59:28 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:59:29 RaceCondition: the equality operators are more and more lenient based on length of the name 00:59:34 Xach: yes, I know, I'm just trying to find out where it comes from "ethymologically" :) 00:59:53 JohnnyL: then you'll need all of GCC as well. 01:00:02 rahul i have it. 01:00:06 Guest48051 [n=Khisanth@pool-151-204-135-88.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:00:47 can any Lisp source file be compiled to a binary? or are there some restrictions as to what dynamic features can be used? 01:00:48 rahul Apart from all of the options, it's pretty good. 01:01:04 JohnnyL: ... but it adds 100MB to the "game" 01:01:17 rahul g++? or gcc? 01:01:19 RaceCondition: all computer data is "binary" 01:01:29 JohnnyL: gcc with all the dependencies 01:01:33 rahul the libs cost that much ram in g++? 01:01:37 headers and all that 01:01:48 rahul: a very helpful answer indeed :P 01:01:48 JohnnyL: what is needed is a good tree-shaker. Implementations that include such cost a lot 01:01:53 JohnnyL: oh, so now we compare apples to oranges 01:02:07 RaceCondition: the answer is a matter of perspective 01:02:11 headers are only for the linking and symbol references. 01:02:23 RaceCondition: a "binary" is just code that is interpreted by a different interpreter 01:02:48 RaceCondition: so you're asking if lisp code can be translated into some other language without restriction 01:02:52 rahul: how should I have formulated my question for you to not find it incorrect or possible to interpret in an unwanted perspective? :P 01:03:09 RaceCondition: how should I know what you really want to know? 01:03:22 nevermind 01:03:26 JohnnyL: ... which is needed if you want to compile something 01:03:38 p_l yeah, if haskell can do it, i don't see why a lisp compiler can match or beat footprints or speed. 01:03:52 JohnnyL: haskell can't compile at run time 01:03:56 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:04:09 rahul thats not my concern. 01:04:19 JohnnyL: haskell can't do anything in question here 01:04:33 rahul: surely whatever analysis need be performed can at worst-case be fully reexecuted for each call to compile. 01:04:36 JohnnyL: well, you're comparing disk footprint of a compiler with that of not-a-compiler 01:04:37 JohnnyL: GHC doesn't compile at run time unless you include the whole compiler, plus it has strict typechecking, which makes it easier to tree-shake due to lack of ambiguity 01:05:00 oh he's talking about binary size 01:05:03 who cares about binary size? 01:05:03 Ralith: analysis of what? 01:05:08 Ralith: newbies :) 01:05:09 rahul: nvm, didn't have context 01:05:17 yeah 01:05:39 *p_l* cares about binary sizes, because he might have few projects where small binaries will be necessary. But he already knows how to get them :D 01:05:40 JohnnyL: more importantly, it doesn't allow dynamic redefinition 01:05:45 -!- abugosh [n=Adium@65-78-105-20.c3-0.drf-ubr1.atw-drf.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:05:51 *dlowe* pokes lisppaste 01:05:59 JohnnyL: but if it did, you'd need the entire compiler at run time 01:06:18 JohnnyL: GHC in the form to run a program with dynamic redefinition can easily trump SBCL in size 01:06:19 Jumping in without knowing what I've missed but, JohnnyL if it's small binaries you're concerned with you might be interested in ECL. 01:06:19 JohnnyL: and then it would take up RAM 01:06:19 code snippet - is this a totally insane way to do this? http://paste.lisp.org/display/93522 01:06:20 JohnnyL: you have to realize that while SBCL's hello world might be orders of magnitude larger than C's, 30MB is *nothing* for a modern computer. Most large apps will have several times that at least in data, making the binary insignificant. 01:06:23 thats not my concern, i'm talking of a compiler that produces an c obj file. 01:06:43 Ralith that doesn't make it good. :) 01:06:54 JohnnyL: it makes it "not bad." 01:07:11 it means it's something you have no reason to care about 01:07:13 JohnnyL: so you mean a compiler that uses a 60s linker? 01:07:17 unless you're working on embedded systems 01:07:46 JohnnyL: In order to get the same functionality, in Haskell with GHC, I have to include 10x more code 01:07:54 JohnnyL: the only thing that is unique about c object files is that they can't be dynamically redefined only dynamically linked 01:08:06 xan-afk [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 01:08:17 I have a difference of SBCL = ~70MB and GHC = ~700 MB 01:08:26 rahul speed and footprint over mega useless interpreter footprint. yeah. 01:08:27 I would love to use a subset of CL for targeting AVRs 01:08:29 JohnnyL: so you'd need to write your own linker on top of the 100MB for gcc 01:08:40 but I'm not sure that's feasible 01:08:47 especially since my code needs to be more or less hard realtime 01:09:00 JohnnyL: do you know what an interpreter is? 01:09:02 JohnnyL: I haven't used interpreted CL except for short play with clisp and testing ECL internals 01:09:14 -!- timor [n=timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:09:20 anyway, Lisp is bo 01:09:24 anyway, Lisp is not bad. 01:09:34 JohnnyL: and do you understand how operating systems work as far as memory-mapped files? 01:09:39 It just needs an option for compiling to native code. 01:09:44 haha 01:09:46 hehehehe 01:09:52 Billy_Mayes [n=Oranguta@64.134.233.103] has joined #lisp 01:09:52 JohnnyL: when didn't it have one? 01:09:55 ltyphair [n=user@ppp-70-244-203-179.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 01:10:05 JohnnyL: the interpreter came later. 01:10:06 JohnnyL: every important implementation used by denizens of this channel by default compiles to native code with exception of ABCL :D 01:10:20 leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 01:10:26 and ABCL uses JIT (clisp is a minority.. :P) 01:10:33 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@166.205.139.91] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:10:46 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 01:10:52 -!- reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:10:57 [1]Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp121-45-54-127.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 01:11:09 and iirc, part of the reason why clisp is an interpreter was because of memory constraints etc. 01:11:10 -!- Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp121-45-54-127.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:11:22 -!- Billy_Mayes [n=Oranguta@64.134.233.103] has left #lisp 01:11:37 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 01:11:46 it wasn't because they needed something to interpret the comments from German into English? 01:11:49 *rahul* ducks 01:12:06 ah, well. never mind. I guess I'll work with it 01:12:48 I think though that Python saves a bit of typing compared to Lisp. () becomes : . Python has functional features like Lisp. I have no idea why I would want to use Lisp over Python, perhaps because Lisp is a bit faster? anyway. 01:12:56 JohnnyL: btw, ECL takes ~7MB for both runtime and compiler (it requires a C compiler for native code compiling, though). It can produce very small binaries 01:12:58 ("criminal" (lambda (ch) (criminalp ch))) 01:13:06 why not just #'criminal... 01:13:24 p 01:13:42 JohnnyL: two things - CLOS/MOP & Macros 01:13:55 syntax too 01:13:58 Yeah, I don't know if Macros are all too great. 01:13:59 and editor support 01:14:06 hah 01:14:21 dlowe: but it seems like a reasonable way to implement it 01:14:26 Like in c++ you have overloading of operators. It just leads to big question marks if you add new employees. 01:14:28 if I understand what it is 01:14:38 JohnnyL: I'll tell you, that even for a very simple project macros were great. Definitely saved me a lot of typing that would require comments to be understandable 01:14:53 -!- rdd` [n=rdd@c83-250-152-128.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:15:01 JohnnyL: well-written macros tend to drastically increase readability. 01:15:07 JohnnyL: macros help separate concerns so new employees don't have to learn 1000 patterns before they can write one line of code 01:15:20 JohnnyL: and operator overloading has nothing to do with this 01:15:26 Ralith If you look at the actual macro, it does not. 01:15:41 rahul predictably , no. 01:15:44 JohnnyL: operator overloading is object orientation forced into a fixed namespace 01:16:16 rahul in fact c++ operators change the way the context's symbols are interpreted. 01:16:41 as does Lisp's symbols. 01:16:42 Java programmer sees "concept" and thinks "Great! I'll use Design Pattern x, y & z!". Lisper sees a pattern and thinks "Shit, patterns, let's make them into macros so that they take one line instead of 15k across 40 modules" 01:16:46 JohnnyL: that's the case for ANY syntax in C++ 01:16:53 its easy to write hard to understand code in every language 01:16:59 JohnnyL: and no, macros do not change the way the context's symbols are interpreted 01:17:01 JohnnyL: in fact, it does. 01:17:09 *JohnnyL* waves to dmiles_afk. ltns! 01:17:12 JohnnyL: they change the way the CONTENT's symobls are interpreted 01:17:42 hi JohnnyL :) .. i looked in here cuz someone said "ABCL" 01:17:49 JohnnyL: how long have you been hanging around here? 01:17:50 rahul: thanks for the quick review. I'm basically back-chaining lambdas together 01:17:59 -!- ltyphair [n=user@ppp-70-244-203-179.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has left #lisp 01:18:00 dmiles_afk: that would be me, insinuating that ABCL is more used/useful than clisp :) 01:18:25 Why have you been unable to develop an articulated opinion in all that time? 01:18:26 dlowe: right 01:18:33 dlowe: kind of like cl-ppcre does 01:18:37 p_l: i think it is indded.. and a benchmark i did the otehr month shows ABCL can be alot faster than clisp at things 01:18:48 pkhuong why do you want to ask what's going outside of #lisp? 01:18:48 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:18:52 rahul: ok, glad to hear I'm not as crazy as it seems 01:18:57 -!- Guest48051 [n=Khisanth@pool-151-204-135-88.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:19:03 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-151-204-135-88.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:19:16 Anyone know of any good examples for doing very simple server programming with Lisp (eg: echo server, time server, etc..) 01:19:20 dmiles_afk: yeah, someone should put new benchmarks at cliki... (Seriously, #lisp should overtake lisp.org domain and put something better) 01:19:43 fractali`: don't know any examples, but usocket is probably where to start. 01:19:43 lisp.org is the ALU 01:19:54 rahul: I know 01:20:01 so macros are the only thing that Lisp has over Python? 01:20:09 so if you want to become involved in the ALU, go for it 01:20:17 JohnnyL: yes, so please leave 01:20:27 JohnnyL: macros are the only thing that matters 01:20:32 ?! 01:20:38 it's like the difference between regex and parsing. 01:20:40 crzuy i am runing some bechmarks on cyc ATM: C=2.6 @ 1.4g, Allegro=1.9 @ 2.4g, Java= 11.6 @ 3.6g 01:20:41 JohnnyL: no, but they are visible from the outside without delving into details that might seriously differ between implementations etc. Language advocacy is a tricky subject 01:21:14 -!- ivan4th [n=ivan4th@212.1.228.48] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:21:26 X @ Y .. X = bigger number = faster , Y = basic RAM it used 01:21:39 dmiles_afk: tried sbcl? 01:21:49 or has it not been fully ported yet? 01:21:55 not fully ported 01:21:58 and if not, what does it use that's not ANSI? 01:22:10 #+Allegro 01:22:15 :( 01:22:30 dmiles_afk: for what stuff? 01:22:33 -!- konr [n=user@189.98.83.62] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:22:36 konr` [n=user@189.98.83.62] has joined #lisp 01:22:45 i.e., what's after #+allegro? 01:22:52 *dmiles_afk* find a couple 01:22:54 in Python, caller decides whether arguments are passed by position or name. is anything like that possible in Lisp? (defun foo (x) ...) and (foo 4) or (foo :x 4) (which is normal in Python) 01:23:04 RaceCondition: no 01:23:13 OK 01:23:22 well, it's POSSIBLE 01:23:41 except for cases where it's ambiguous 01:23:49 since anything at all can be a keyword 01:24:07 it's not standard, though 01:24:09 RaceCondition: in Python there are actually two bins for arguments (thus the (*args, **kwargs) when you're writing forwarders); in Lisp, there is only a single list of arguments, and it is up to the callee to interpret them. 01:24:11 what about my example with foo(x)? 01:24:30 RaceCondition: for a single arg, it's doable 01:24:37 kpreid: in Python, if you have def foo(x), x can be passed either way 01:24:39 RaceCondition: but useless 01:24:39 it could be achieved fairly easily with a macro wrapping defun, couldn't it? 01:24:42 rahul: right now a little too much is .. sometimes a basdic funcall is 01:24:47 ivan4th [n=ivan4th@212.1.228.48] has joined #lisp 01:24:49 dmiles_afk: odd 01:24:56 RaceCondition: yes. I did not contradict that. 01:25:04 kpreid: oh, ok 01:25:11 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:25:13 rahul: about 10% aof applicatbel at most 01:25:20 Ralith: sure, for the cases where it's possible to tell what is a keyword and what is not 01:25:23 Ralith: Thanks, I'm using SBCL but figured usocket was the way to go instead of trying to use sbcl's internal sb-bsd-socket. 01:25:30 rahul: they more mean #+IsARealLisp 01:25:43 fractali`: it's not internal. 01:25:46 kpreid: but I see your point, yes: in lisp, even keyword arguments are "positional" arguments, they just come in doubles :) 01:25:48 so I get the point 01:25:59 dmiles_afk: oh, ok... so most of it can probably be #+(or sbcl allegro) 01:26:13 rahul: indeed. 01:26:23 RaceCondition: no, they're not positional 01:26:37 RaceCondition: however anything at all can be the name 01:26:39 rahul: they are together in the same list as positional ones, that's what I meant 01:26:48 RaceCondition: ok, right 01:26:57 RaceCondition: in Python the caller specifies whether something is a keyword or positional argument (at the syntactic level, using '='; at the protocol level, whether it's in args or kwargs); so the callee gets to use this information. In Common Lisp the information does not exist 01:26:59 rahul: but there is still excl:: to be anoying 01:27:14 dmiles_afk: right, that's the non-ansi stuff 01:27:17 kpreid: yes, that's what I think I just said :P 01:27:34 in a more newbie manner of course 01:29:36 kpreid: but theoretically speaking, I could use (foo :x = 3) or even (foo x = 3) in Lisp as well, no? 01:29:52 legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-1-175.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 01:30:08 RaceCondition: well, you'd get undefined variable for = 01:30:27 rahul: I mean, theoretically 01:30:39 RaceCondition: = would have to evaluate to some object which does not ever otherwise occur in an arglist 01:30:55 so if you want that to work in general, uh, how do you write the code for working with the = object? 01:31:00 kpreid: OK maybe := or '= then 01:31:10 doesn't matter. it's still a magic value 01:31:11 no, those can easily occur in arglists 01:31:29 (foo x := :=) 01:32:43 -!- kloeri [i=kloeri@freenode/staff/exherbo.kloeri] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:32:45 RaceCondition: seriously, this feature is really not as good as you think it is 01:33:03 rahul: I didn't say I thought it was good :P 01:33:05 it creates a lot of ambiguity 01:33:06 heh 01:33:18 I'm just wondering... learning by (theoretical) experiment 01:34:21 p_l GHC does *not* take up a 700MB RAM footprint. I'm not sure where you are getting this arbitrary information from. 01:35:29 (defun foo (x nil) (y nil) &key z w) ...) how would Lisp evaluate (foo :z 3)? 01:35:31 JohnnyL: I stated the footprint on disk... effective code loaded to ram isn't that much as well for SBCl 01:35:46 rahul: btw, it's not true that anything at all can be a keyword-argument-keyword. they have to be symbols (per 3.4.1.4) 01:35:51 It's about 24 megs of ram on my machine (with standard prelude + nothing else). 01:36:04 and at least one lisp implementation I've met enforces this 01:36:08 p_l we weren't talking footprint on disk. Who cares about that. 01:36:12 -!- [1]Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp121-45-54-127.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 01:36:12 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Excess Flood] 01:36:12 -!- clog [n=nef@bespin.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 01:36:16 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-72-228-72-196.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 01:36:23 clog [n=nef@bespin.org] has joined #lisp 01:36:26 -!- clog [n=nef@bespin.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 01:36:27 -!- skeptomai|awa- [n=nnnnnnnc@71.227.156.96] has quit [Excess Flood] 01:36:30 stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 01:36:35 clog [n=nef@bespin.org] has joined #lisp 01:36:37 -!- coyo [n=unf@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 01:36:40 milanj [n=milan@79.101.180.172] has joined #lisp 01:36:53 coyo [n=unf@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:36:59 skeptomai|awa- [n=nnnnnnnn@c-71-227-156-96.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:37:02 looks like someone is 'clog-hopping' 01:37:04 Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp121-45-54-127.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 01:37:36 -!- pemryan [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has quit [Excess Flood] 01:37:47 ah, didn't know they needed to be keywords, but I wouldn't use anything else myself 01:37:54 ah, damn, it wasn't even valid Lisp 01:38:02 pemryan [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has joined #lisp 01:38:17 RaceCondition: yeah. I have no clue what that is 01:38:31 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-36-52.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:38:40 if you mean &optional x y &key z w, then you've hit something that is highly frowned upon 01:38:51 combining &optional and &key is bad bad 01:39:22 rahul gcc is a compiler, it does not take up 100MBs of RAM for someone to write 'Hello World' to their terminal. 01:39:55 funny though how you mentioned linker from the 60's. I know that Lisp predates c by about 10 years or so. 01:40:11 JohnnyL: exactly 01:40:20 <_3b__> JohnnyL: so don't use SBCL? or pay someone to fix what you don't liek about it? 01:40:37 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Excess Flood] 01:40:39 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 01:40:41 JohnnyL: and it does not take 30 MB RAM for hello world in lisp either 01:40:49 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-72-228-72-196.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:40:54 _3b__: no, he's just assuming that his OS is a piece of crap 01:41:03 rahul: yeah, just saw the style warnings 01:41:34 JohnnyL: it took till the 70s for lisp linking to really be both efficient and correct at the same time 01:42:01 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-68-54-179-181.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:42:10 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@83.222.166.125] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:42:16 _3b__ as in AT&T 3b? Well, writing an eval/linked lists is easy enough. It's done in Abuse! :) But if something like Python or an existing Lisp can do it better than I'm game. 01:42:38 <_3b__> heh, i was going to say i can compile a tiny hello world in flash... but then i loaded it into the debug player and RES is 42MB :p 01:42:42 rahul yeah, early lisp was almost as scary as commodore 64 basic v2. 01:42:48 10 goto 10 01:42:51 -!- zelig [n=zelig@189.60.42.13] has left #lisp 01:42:51 ^ ahhhhhhhhh 01:43:01 or rather 10 GOTO 10 01:43:02 er.. 01:43:03 <_3b__> JohnnyL: at&t? not that i know of 01:43:07 sorry, I forgot the annoying caps. 01:43:31 _3b__ My buddy had an AT&T 3B, it was a sweet unix mainframe. 01:43:41 This was back in 1989. :) 01:44:04 <_3b__> JohnnyL: try ccl, corman, clisp, ecl, acl, probably pretty much anything else besides cmucl will be smaller than sbcl for hello world :p 01:44:24 JohnnyL: complete compiler, profiler etc. on my machine takes ~50MB of RAM. That's assuming everything is loaded. And that's SBCL, (in)famous for its huge core images 01:44:29 <_3b__> sbcl cares about speed, and not size... so it is fast but takes up some space 01:44:46 ECL otoh takes around 7MB 01:44:48 <_3b__> or grab one of the old DOS CLs, those should run in a few MB easily :) 01:45:07 -!- _3b__ is now known as _3b 01:45:08 use the VxWorks port of CCL 01:45:14 p_l yeah, i don't really want to program in c/c++ but it's one of the few languages that can keep up with OpenGL. 01:45:38 "keep up with"? 01:45:50 yes. 01:45:53 <_3b> so write better OpenGL code :p 01:46:04 I guess all those openGL programs in lisp are figments of the universe's imagination 01:46:10 Keep up with the (state machine). 01:46:19 <_3b> if host language matters, you are wasting GPU time anyway 01:46:51 rahul i have yet to try any of them. 01:46:58 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.180.172] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:47:21 is SBCL generally a superset of CMUCL? 01:47:27 <_3b> RaceCondition: no 01:47:31 I'm sure the garbage collection makes it puke every so often. 01:47:37 -!- djinni` [n=djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has quit [K-lined] 01:47:55 _3b: I read that in CMUCL it is possible to declare types, i.e. do static typing (to some extent). not so in SBCL? 01:47:59 jpbarrette [n=jpbarret@modemcable098.216-23-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 01:48:08 <_3b> RaceCondition: some features were dropped (some of those reimplemented differently later), some things were added to cmucl after the fork 01:48:28 <_3b> RaceCondition: the type inference stuff is still there 01:49:07 _3b: OK, cool, is it considered an "advanced" feature or does it kick in immediately? 01:49:08 RaceCondition: typing is part of ANSI CL spec, it's just not necessarily implemented in compiler 01:49:17 oh, OK 01:49:38 I'm just wondering if SBCL has been doing type inference and type validation already without me knowing it 01:49:46 probably 01:49:47 kloeri [i=kloeri@freenode/staff/exherbo.kloeri] has joined #lisp 01:49:48 RaceCondition: and type inference is enabled by default in SBCL, when you start compiling with optimization for speed settings it starts complaining about types it couldn't infer 01:49:49 cool 01:49:59 JohnnyL: I see, so if you haven't used something, then it must be impossible 01:50:18 -!- rdd`` [n=rdd@c83-250-152-128.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:50:31 rahul thats a statement i don't take note of. 01:50:34 JohnnyL: not everyone is dumb. other people know how to write correct code, even if you can't... 01:50:49 <_3b> JohnnyL: for that matter, javascript can even run GL decently these days :p 01:51:15 it's not a matter of being dumb rather that of being robost and mature. (with no hiccups like in Java based GL apps) 01:51:18 p_l: but does it also happen in an interactive REPL? I just did (defun x () 1) (defun y () "1") and defun (defun z () (+ (x) (z))) and it didn't complain 01:51:26 hah 01:51:40 -!- svaksha0 [n=svaksha@perrier.eu.org] has quit [Client Quit] 01:51:42 JohnnyL: well, java programmers are dumb :) 01:51:47 RaceCondition: because you didn't setup (optimize (speed 3) (safety 0)) etc. ;-) 01:51:48 what exactly is the point of this conversation? 01:51:49 JohnnyL: so no wonder they can't write correct code 01:51:51 jfc. 01:51:52 _3B, If you go on Dr Dobbs site, their main pages in JS will make firefox crawl. 01:52:06 p_l: OK, I'll try with that 01:52:09 I can write correct java code 01:52:14 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@adsl-76-228-82-245.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 01:52:15 just give me 1000x longer 01:52:23 <_3b> JohnnyL: i can write slow code in c/c++ too, so? 01:52:42 p_l: wait, so safety=3 means less type checks? how come? :D 01:53:01 RaceCondition: no, safety 3 means lots of safety 01:53:08 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229175223.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 01:53:08 <_3b> RaceCondition: the type inference is usually within functions, since it can't do as much for normal calls, since you could redefine the function 01:53:10 safety 0 tries to remove type checks etc. 01:53:39 _3b: why not just re-infer all relevant code when a function is redefined? 01:53:45 p_l: oh, so type inference is mostly to optimize out duck typing related inefficiencies, not for static validation? 01:53:49 <_3b> RaceCondition: for example you could redefine y before calling z and it would work (assuming z called y instead of itself) 01:54:14 _3b: but if I compile x, y and z all in one go, that wouldn't apply, would it? 01:54:20 <_3b> Ralith: ok, 'it is too lazy to' rather than 'it can't' :p 01:54:38 RaceCondition: no, compiling all in one go doesn't really matter 01:54:54 _3b i have seen an entire JS engine for a NES emulator at realtime on a 3 GigHrtz machine. Twas a small size however it was sweet and responsive. (robust if you had a shrunken human head) 01:54:57 <_3b> RaceCondition: sbcl treats type declarations as assertions under normal settings, so it is sort of like static typing 01:55:01 RaceCondition: this is the 70's linker technology that JohnnyL is unfamiliar with 01:55:18 _3b: :P 01:55:22 RaceCondition: 60s tech replaces references at link time 01:55:31 <_3b> JohnnyL: yeah, saw that :) 01:55:34 RaceCondition: 70s tech resolves references via a table 01:55:50 rahul: and 80s and 90s and 00s? 01:55:59 there are also some compilers that allow you to remove redefining abilities while dumping image, so after running tree shaker you get a small app :D 01:56:01 RaceCondition: nothing new 01:56:04 rahul Why are you flinging your own insecurities on me? :p 01:56:11 JohnnyL: mine? 01:56:20 JohnnyL: wat 01:56:29 JohnnyL: you're the one who thinks that your OS is dumb 01:56:35 among other silly things 01:56:37 <_3b> RaceCondition: for things compiled all at once, it is allowed to do that sort of optimization, so it might complain if you put ll 3 defs in a WITH-COMPILATION-UNIT form 01:56:38 I know what uses RAM and what doesn't 01:56:52 you assume that your OS designer is only as smart as you are 01:56:59 <_3b> isn't the new linker tech linktime inlining/recompilation stuff? 01:57:18 _3b: dynamic recompilation... I guess that's 90s 01:57:48 Is there anyone who could tell me how with cffi to get access to an C external variable? I'm playing with python C API and I want to access to global PyObject * Py_False pointer 01:57:53 _3b: new linker stuff is a very advanced variant of the old one, which might also use profiling data to better locate positions 01:58:02 <_3b> p_l: that too 01:59:07 -!- ruediger_ [n=quassel@93-82-1-161.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:59:34 I don't see in the documentation how to do that. 01:59:39 I'm missing something 02:00:12 jpbarrette: http://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/html_node/defcvar.html#defcvar 02:01:03 thank you very much. I really don't know how I missed that. 02:01:46 jpbarrette: you can also always grab a pointer (and work from there) with foreign-symbol-pointer 02:01:53 My beef isn't really with OS designers (who I feel bad for) but the poor souls who write everything from scratch when it's already there and tight (robust+loosely coupled). I can't see writing in C++ high level code, taking<1mb of RAM )(not 100mb)but I also can't see using a slow scripting engine taking 70mb/slow response time with easier coding/testing time/etc. I suppose it's all a tradeoff. 02:01:58 I am just contemplating the ifs. 02:02:03 at this point 02:02:51 JohnnyL: the big implementations (of CL) are the ones that compile everything to native code 02:03:02 JohnnyL: so get the best of both worlds with lisp 02:03:11 thats the trade off, cash. 02:03:19 a big part of SBCL's memory footprint is the compiler, which at the moment is nearly unremovable 02:03:21 and stop assuming that everyone else is dumber than you and hasn't figured out the problems 02:03:30 cash? 02:03:46 JohnnyL: who convinced you to pay for sbcl? 02:04:02 p_l: but it isn't in RAM if you don't use it 02:04:07 most people here don't have to deal with small binaries because they are writing server-side code. Those that do, either pay big money for ACL/LW or use ECL 02:04:10 except on the OS JohnnyL wrote :P 02:04:15 rahul sbcl is a 'big implementation' ala p_l? 02:04:19 rahul: well, SBCL will kinda use it :P 02:04:57 p_l: only if you have really complex OOP going on 02:04:59 JohnnyL: SBCL is a *big* implementation - it's feature-complete regarding spec (or at least I don't recall people complaining about missing stuff), contains optimizing compiler etc. 02:05:19 rahul: wasn't the compiler called somewhere in method specialization in runtime? 02:05:41 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:05:55 with possibility of replacing it with small code generator that only generated certain kind of stuff that was necessary 02:06:34 p_l: compiling effective methods, I think 02:06:51 p_l: so most of them should be compiled with a few calls 02:07:08 I will have to eval sbcl then and test it. Can you explicitely control it's gc? 02:07:08 unless you have a really complex system of OOP going on with lots of different classes 02:07:09 rahul: yes, but it will still pull the compiler from VM to ram :P 02:07:28 in which case all those different objects with different classses will take up far more memory than the compiler 02:07:58 JohnnyL: you mean, can you make it kill your OS? 02:08:15 JohnnyL: I'm not sure how specific the control over GC is - just remember, that so far, there weren't many people that had to deal with let's say, fast interactive apps, so don't expect nicely prepared GC controls 02:08:21 JohnnyL: it has options. you can't tell it exactly what to allocate and where 02:08:27 JohnnyL: lisp isn't C 02:08:33 ITA uses custom solutions for some of their codepaths where they know exactly what they want 02:08:36 (actually, you can't do that in portable C either) 02:08:50 yeah, well it's real time. that sux0rs. 02:09:14 JohnnyL: so GC after your real-time limit 02:09:17 even GL/DX hiccups in c. 02:09:38 though it's not always readably noticable. 02:09:39 JohnnyL: that's because malloc is slower than GC 02:10:01 don't create non-garbage and GC will be fast 02:10:05 larry65 [n=larry@d122-105-194-67.meb12.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 02:10:22 and don't create finalizers 02:11:48 i don't see how malloc is slower than gc. malloc goes in order of memory addresses in one direction assigning freepointers where the last free pointer was found. It's speed is mostly dependant on how fraged your memory is. But yes, those lags are usually malloc to RAM. 02:12:28 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-151-204-135-88.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:12:34 JohnnyL: actually, not really - many current malloc implementations don't use brk()/sbrk() 02:13:09 also, free() for proper work has to maintain a "free list" etc. 02:13:45 saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:14:03 -!- ivan4th [n=ivan4th@212.1.228.48] has quit [Excess Flood] 02:14:17 JohnnyL: you can't see how a linear search is faster than incrementing a variable? 02:14:35 now I'm even more convinced that I don't want you implementing my OS 02:14:43 I am install gsl for gsll. Generally, can I remove those .a files? 02:15:04 leo2007: well, if you don't plan on using static linking anywhere, then yes 02:15:58 -!- Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:16:36 cl doesn't use static linking, right? 02:17:21 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:17:54 leo2007: unless you use ECL 02:18:30 i see. Thanks ;) 02:18:40 -!- xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:18:55 leo2007: mind you, it should be possible to link statically SBCL, for example, just that I'm not sure if anyone tried :) 02:19:13 xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 02:20:34 JohnnyL, GC can mean many things. The argument isn't so much about managing freelists or whatever, GC can allow for more intelligent allocation and caching semantics. 02:22:29 Johnny: Then you don't understand the basic problem that malloc/free need to solve. 02:22:32 stoop okay, you caught my attention. But my somewhat limited experience has not found this to be true. 02:22:45 myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 02:22:47 -!- re-l [n=re-l@c-98-197-118-188.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:22:54 Johnny: malloc/free are essentially a search algorithm. 02:23:32 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 02:24:57 svaksha [n=svaksha@perrier.eu.org] has joined #lisp 02:25:51 Now I can see why some lisp implementations take up 70meg. Take a patch of contiguous RAM and allocate 'blocks' according to size. It would be fair to say that this would be faster then searching the OS's RAM. 02:26:25 Johnny: Then you're seeing incorrectly, again. 02:26:45 JohnnyL: SBCL for example will show as taking 8G on 64bit machine, because it will allocate a continuous address space of 8G and then manage it completely by itself 02:27:10 p_l yeah, it makes sense. 02:27:26 johnny: Do you understand the difference between 'ram' and 'address space'? 02:27:37 Appears not. 02:27:44 balooga [n=00u4440@adsl-99-162-211-151.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:29:35 -!- slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 02:29:44 slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has joined #lisp 02:29:49 -!- slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 02:29:58 slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has joined #lisp 02:30:24 Guest39611 [n=Khisanth@pool-151-204-135-88.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:30:45 yes address space can be randomly accessed in memory and randomly accessed memory can be allocated into address spaces. 02:30:56 galaxywatcher_ [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-45-33.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 02:31:17 is there anything I need to do to make emacs highlight the parentheses? 02:31:22 JohnnyL, no. 02:31:28 JohnnyL: addresses don't necessarily map to physical ram. 02:31:40 Johnny: I suggest that from now on you start from the basic assumption that you do not know anything about computers. 02:31:40 *rahul* facepalm 02:31:45 p_l: thanks 02:32:02 does ccl include libffi? 02:32:05 JohnnyL: I'd especially not assume I knew more than everyone else if I were you 02:32:22 rahul, but you aren't so you do? :P 02:32:23 pesonally i think you chaps need a dictionary, why are you asking me all of these basic questions? 02:32:26 leo2007: ccl has an ffi. no clue what libffi is 02:32:39 rahul: this http://sourceware.org/libffi/ 02:32:53 Because you are saying incredibly stupid things, and we want to find out why. 02:33:00 bleh, JohnnyL don't troll. 02:33:15 mle prove it. 02:33:24 felideon [n=felideon@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 02:33:36 JohnnyL: we aren't asking if YOU need a dictionary 02:33:36 mle you can't have addresses without 'physical ram'. 02:33:41 oh my god 02:33:46 JohnnyL: WRONG 02:34:00 JohnnyL: 99% of all addresses have no physical ram 02:34:00 johnny: Yes -- incredibly stupid things like that ... 02:34:03 I am happy as a clam. 02:34:10 ignorance is bliss 02:34:31 JohnnyL: the MMU was invented decades ago 02:34:39 JohnnyL: a clam that is about to be cooked 02:34:42 JohnnyL: stop using a 286 02:35:07 I swear if I find a GL library thats not full features (or abandoned in 2001) in a Lisp like language, I will forever swear at Lisp! 02:35:31 -!- slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 02:35:39 slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has joined #lisp 02:35:56 -!- NNshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-37-82-253-45-49.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:36:47 *drewc* walks in, *boggle* 02:36:50 rahul Yes, natural language has this tendency to redefine any word it comes across, and for a lack of many other things, you and Zhivago seem to be masters of this. 02:37:10 JohnnyL, no, you are just wrong. 02:37:20 JohnnyL, here, let me give you a good URL. 02:37:56 THIS_IS_THE_PURPOSE_I_SERVE: MOV EBX, %NO_IT_ISN'T. JMP THIS_IS_THE_PURPOSE_I_SERVE 02:38:12 -!- galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-45-33.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:38:13 -!- galaxywatcher_ is now known as galaxywatcher 02:38:22 Hrm, apparently you are not familiar with AT&T syntax either. :-P 02:38:34 Relax... 02:38:35 JohnnyL: your stupidity is not our manipulation 02:38:51 JohnnyL: you can't blame all your faults on us 02:39:08 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-252-1-29-106.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 02:39:13 rahul thats just a casual observation. 02:39:37 stoop who says I was using AT&T syntax? 02:39:59 see the game goes both ways. 02:40:06 playa haters! 02:40:19 JohnnyL: do you have anything real to talk about or are you going to keep asserting that you're correct because you don't know anything? 02:40:19 *JohnnyL* is the Original Playa... FROM THE HIMALAYA! 02:40:24 You're not funny. 02:40:35 wow, he's finally snapped 02:40:41 stoop if you don't like it go program in Lisp, or whatever it is you do. 02:40:41 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.89.195] has joined #lisp 02:41:30 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o drewc 02:42:12 drewc: DOITDOITDOITDOIT 02:42:22 lol 02:42:32 hey Zhivago 02:43:09 I just learned that nobody acceptsa Sapir-Whorf today 02:43:17 does SLIME support automated refactorings to an extent? like rename-local-variable? 02:43:28 or rename- 02:43:37 soupdragon: heh, ah well. 02:43:43 RaceCondition: not really, but yes, sorta 02:44:09 soupdragon: not the original formulation no. It's fairly simplistic. 02:44:10 drewc: smth like replace-string-in-form? 02:44:26 for some reason, I thought it was a widely accepted fact 02:44:45 RaceCondition: more succinctly put, emacs has search and replace, slime has cross-references, and redshank has some cool things for refactoring lisp code 02:45:14 drewc: and redshank is not in SLIME, right? 02:45:17 -!- Guest39611 [n=Khisanth@pool-151-204-135-88.ny325.east.verizon.net] has left #lisp 02:45:20 minion: redshank? 02:45:39 drewc: redshank is pretty good at letting you pretend CLOS class definitions aren't obnoxious to write out. 02:45:44 drewc: and how do I mix emacs' search/replace with SLIME's cross-references? 02:45:49 http://www.foldr.org/~michaelw/emacs/redshank/ 02:46:03 drewc: thanks, I'll check those out 02:46:06 soupdragon: programmers like simple and deterministic (in the social science sense) rules. 02:46:21 pkhuong hehe I can't say I'm not guilty 02:46:21 RaceCondition: M-% and C-M-% are _more_ then enough. 02:46:37 sykopomp: i don't think such features are a good idea myself 02:46:51 drewc: OK 02:47:10 sykopomp: if every slot has an accessor, and an initarg named after it, you have a different kind of class then a standard class, IMO 02:47:38 sykopomp: especially initargs... they are part of the interface and should not just be created willy-nilly. 02:48:12 especially if you're naming the with :keywords... which most tools (and programmers for that matter) do automatically. 02:48:12 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Excess Flood] 02:48:14 drewc: it makes sense to force you to write it out, until it turns out that the vast majority of CLOS code (that I have read), pretty much sticks to very limited parameters. 02:48:23 -!- galaxywatcher [n=galaxywa@ppp-58-8-45-33.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Excess Flood] 02:48:34 stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 02:48:42 sykopomp: what do you mean 'limited parameters' 02:49:30 sykopomp: then you don't need to use CLOS 02:49:32 as in, most slot definitions I've read go something like (foo :initarg :foo :initform [foo|foo-of]) 02:49:50 -!- jpbarrette [n=jpbarret@modemcable098.216-23-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [] 02:50:01 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Excess Flood] 02:50:39 sykopomp: you must not have read very much clos code then.... first off you made a typo that i will now brow-beat you for.... 02:50:49 drewc: considering how common that pattern is, I would think it makes more sense to allow you to declare -exceptions- to that pattern, than to force you to use tools like redshank. I don't use defclass*, but I sort of like its approach. 02:51:29 drewc: A lesson on typos from you would make me giggle more than anything. 02:51:32 sykopomp: i don't think it's as common as you'd have me believe. 02:51:49 sykopomp: ok... well that's a weird :initarg you've got there.... 02:51:54 err 02:51:59 :initform 02:52:01 see 02:52:06 drewc: I don't care :) 02:52:09 i can't even browbeat! 02:52:09 Krystof: would it be reasonably doable to extend structures with multiple inheritance of empty mixins? 02:53:15 sykopomp: do you really always use an initarg with every slot? to me, an initarg is a signal by the programmer that this slot is meant to be initialized by passing an argument to make-instance. 02:53:52 drewc: I've seen it as a common pattern. I do not always declare initargs for all slots, no, but it's very common for me to write entire class definitions that do follow that exact pattern. 02:54:10 -!- dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f735269.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 02:54:24 dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f735269.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 02:54:43 sykopomp: so, for me it's uncommon.. very much so. In the cases were i have classes that follow a common pattern.. lisp provides a facility for that... 02:54:58 yes, it's called a macro. 02:55:03 i use a metaclass that defines initargs and accessors automatically, and document that. 02:55:04 and you know what defclass is? a macro >:( 02:55:08 oh god, nevermind. 02:55:27 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441045.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 02:55:38 i'm not talking about macros here... but rather meta-protocols. 02:55:40 I guess going the metaclass way is fine too :| 02:55:49 I rarely have a whole class that has all its elements defined with initargs and accessors 02:56:02 macro/mop it doesn't matter, the point is the same. 02:56:15 especially, I don't always have accessors with the same name as the slot 02:56:18 if you have a pattern, give it a name, reifiy it, make it something you can hold. 02:56:19 well, there's advantages to going the MOP way, but yes :) 02:56:26 since accessors are interface and slot names are implementation 02:56:27 mischievous [n=mischief@unaffiliated/mischief] has joined #lisp 02:56:31 -!- dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f735269.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 02:56:32 accessors are protocol-property 02:56:38 I'm just of the opinion that I don't see why the default definition macro can't provide this convenience. 02:56:45 dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f735269.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 02:56:50 -!- dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f735269.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 02:57:00 this might be off topic, but anyone know why i cant use backspace under emacs+slime? 02:57:03 sykopomp: because it's bad design to have a default that is bad design 02:57:04 dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f735269.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 02:57:05 sykopomp: because that convenience only makes sense something like 10% of the time 02:57:08 -!- dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f735269.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 02:57:17 sykopomp: and if you want that, use defstruct 02:57:33 rahul: can you go run some statistical analysis on all the code in cliki and get back to me in a decade? 02:57:47 dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f735269.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 02:57:58 sykopomp: have you done so? how is it relevant? 02:58:10 mischievous, what do you mean? what happens when you press the key? 02:58:10 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-151-204-135-88.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:58:25 drewc: I haven't, I just speak from impressions. I think it would be interesting to see how common it is, though. 02:58:25 sykopomp: can you accept that maybe there are people who have seen more CLOS using code then you? where might they hang out? 02:58:36 sykopomp: I wouldn't use most of the crap code that's out there 02:58:42 Adlai, it seems to interpret it as C-h 02:58:49 rahul: I know, you NIH to the grave. 02:58:53 sykopomp: it would break the moment I tried to do anything interesting with it 02:59:06 drewc: If there's anyone who's seen more CLOS code here than anyone else, it's you, of course. 02:59:10 sykopomp: oh yeah, I'm the one who needs to implement his own object system to add a single feature :) 02:59:15 altohugh I sort of suspect most of that code might be yours or pascal's :P 02:59:17 -!- dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f735269.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 02:59:22 mischievous, I'm not sure; that sounds like it might be more of an Emacs configuration issue 02:59:31 mischievous: termcap issues. 02:59:31 dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f735269.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 02:59:32 -!- dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f735269.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 02:59:46 dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f735269.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 03:00:11 pkhuong, at my terminal and in other editors it seems to work like i expect 03:00:24 sykopomp: good hackers borrow, great hackers steal :P 03:00:29 that wasn't a nice thing to say, hehe 03:00:32 rahul 03:00:48 drewc: I'm not about to jump into a pissing contest about CLOS expertise with you -- I'm just saying that I think defclass could be a little less noisy. 03:00:50 -!- dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f735269.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 03:00:59 sykopomp: and i'm saying it's not : 03:01:04 dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f735269.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 03:01:04 -!- dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f735269.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 03:01:09 (defclass foo () (bar baz bat)) 03:01:13 dys could also be a little less noisy.. 03:01:18 dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f735269.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 03:01:18 -!- dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f735269.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 03:01:22 sykopomp: once you get more used to OOP, you'll realize that you shouldn't be doing those things that you think should be default 03:01:25 mischievous: most other implementation interpret C-h as backspace. 03:01:28 that's not very noisy at all. 03:01:32 dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f735269.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 03:01:32 -!- dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f735269.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 03:01:33 s/implementation/program/ 03:01:46 dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f735269.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 03:02:28 is there a real meaning to be able to pass 1152921504606846975 arguments to a function? 03:02:28 sykopomp: thinking in terms of protocols completely changed my view of how to design classes 03:02:34 RaceCondition: no 03:02:42 rahul: OK, good 03:02:57 pkhuong, yet, emacs interprets C-h as C-h. surprising -.- 03:03:00 RaceCondition: it just means that you can put all your values on the heap and pass them to the function as a list :P 03:03:11 drewc: (defclass foo () ((foo :initarg :foos-foo :accessor foo-of) (bar :initform (incf *yo-mama*) :reader mamacount) (baz :initarg :maybe-I-want-one :initform *otherwise-this* :reader awesome :writer (setf sauce)))) 03:03:27 ^ that's about the kind of class definition I'd expect. 03:03:30 rahul: :P will keep that in imnd 03:03:33 sykopomp: can i see what protocol you are implementing? 03:04:24 drewc: that's just a class with 3 slots. Nothing fancy going on there! 03:04:35 I didn't even use :allocation or :documentation! 03:04:55 -!- dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f735269.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 03:05:09 dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f735269.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 03:05:19 drewc, this is something still on the drawing board 03:05:19 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:05:37 drewc: so for accessing your internal to class slots would you use (with-slots...)? 03:06:05 i just find (slot-value ....) very obnoxious 03:06:15 (as far as I can tell) 03:06:41 probably not the right description, but awkward anyway 03:06:48 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:06:51 Guthur: it shouldn't matter... 03:07:03 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 03:07:04 the consumer of your protocol uses the generic functions provided. 03:07:14 the implementation details are just that. 03:07:19 well that was going to be the reason I would say I often implement an accessor or reader 03:07:27 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 03:07:48 reader for quite constant slots 03:08:16 implement/specify 03:08:22 i have used with-slots, slot-value and an accessor for that slot, all in the same function, and there was a good reason for it. 03:09:10 drewc: that doesn't sound very clean or straightforward, regardless of how good a reason you think you had... 03:09:14 Guthur: you're confusing implementation and interface 03:09:36 rahul not really thinking of interface, there may not be an initarg 03:09:40 sykopomp: you think polymorphism is bad? 03:09:45 or rather it is internal 03:09:47 Guthur: huh? 03:09:55 thats not interface 03:10:02 rahul: I think polymorphing is the work of satan and witches. 03:10:04 and 7 is not 10 03:10:04 as I understand it 03:10:04 sykopomp: have you ever used CAR and FIRST on the same cons in different contexts? 03:10:26 drewc: no. I would consider that a pretty retarded inconsistency. 03:10:31 Guthur: "slot" is not how you manipulate data 03:10:54 rahul: ? 03:11:03 Guthur: you never manipulate slots 03:11:05 although I've had more mixup in general of whether I prefer first/car depending on who I expect to read my code. 03:11:16 you implement in terms of slots, or not 03:11:29 rahul: but I talking about accessing their value 03:11:38 sykopomp: CAR is for CONSes, FIRST is for LISTS 03:11:43 Guthur: accessing a slot's value is not part of your interface 03:12:00 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 03:12:02 drewc: funny, I use CAR on lists all the time :) 03:12:04 SECOND is for LOSErs 03:12:07 :D 03:12:08 I know thats why I said I wasn't referring to interface 03:12:09 Guthur: an accessor may not access a slot at all 03:12:27 Guthur: then you don't need with-slots or acessors 03:12:37 sykopomp: i'm sure you do, that doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. 03:12:48 Guthur: and your slot name may not be the same as your accessor name 03:12:49 rahul: how would you store internal state then 03:12:55 is there now way to write functions with dynamic keyword arguments like Python's **kwargs? 03:12:56 Guthur: in the generic function! 03:13:04 Guthur: anywhere I can store state 03:13:08 drewc: I think cadddadadaddaddadr come off as more list-surgery-oriented than the first-tenth 03:13:10 slot? 03:13:11 Guthur: slots are but one option 03:13:24 so I don't really agree with what you're saying. 03:13:24 Guthur: methods are another 03:13:41 I mean, functions with BOTH dynamic and defined kw arguments 03:13:53 sykopomp: so you think of lists as things that have a car and a cdr? 03:14:01 RaceCondition: you can process a &rest list arbitrarily. 03:14:03 rahul: you don't? 03:14:04 sykopomp: and cons cells as things that have first and tenth? 03:14:07 RaceCondition, yes 03:14:10 sykopomp: no, I don't 03:14:14 clhs 3.4.1 03:14:20 sykopomp: what is the SECOND of a cons? 03:14:24 sykopomp: lists have firsts, seconds, and rests 03:14:25 rahul: you're silly, please learn lisp properly and come back in a decade. 03:14:32 haha 03:14:37 pkhuong: but if I have (defun foo (&rest rest &key a b c) ...), I can only pass :a, :b and :c, not random kw arguments 03:14:46 RaceCondition, the basic idea is you can do (&rest args &key foo bar &allow-other-keys) 03:14:59 *rahul* summons the ghost of Naggum to beat down sykopomp for willful ignorance 03:15:00 drewc: the car of whatever the cdr of a cons is :) 03:15:13 sykopomp: (cons 1 2) <---- ? 03:15:14 RaceCondition, this is very convenient in generic functions, where each method can handle a few different keywords. 03:15:23 RaceCondition: &allow-other-keys 03:15:23 Adlai: oh, &allow-other-keys, nice... PCL didn't tell me about that 03:15:30 sykopomp: conses are distinct from lists in may ways. 03:15:34 drewc: (second (list 1)) <---- ? 03:15:41 sykopomp: NIL 03:15:44 _|_ 03:15:57 o rly 03:15:58 urrite :D 03:16:02 sykopomp: what's your point? 03:16:03 Who let the haskeller in? 03:16:08 but why does Lisp bot a, b, and c in rest too? is there also a way to disable that? 03:16:16 sellout: heh 03:16:24 bot=put 03:16:25 RaceCondition: no 03:16:43 drewc: my point is that lists are composed of conses and I consider first->tenth to be more readable ways of doing the same thing. 03:16:54 sykopomp: i agree. 03:16:55 RaceCondition: because &rest gives you the actual tail of the list that is passed as the parameter list 03:16:56 RaceCondition, the &rest argument is collected separately from the keyword argument parsing 03:17:04 sykopomp: other things are made of conses too though 03:17:14 sykopomp: cons cells happen to be the way lists are implemented 03:17:21 rahul: can't I just put &rest AFTER &key? :P 03:17:29 RaceCondition: Nope. 03:17:30 RaceCondition, no 03:17:36 RaceCondition: no, because the keys can occur in any order 03:17:58 -!- tmh [n=user@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 03:18:10 RaceCondition: what is the tail that contains the keyword that is not x in (:y 1 :x 2)? 03:18:11 sykopomp: if i happen to use lists to make, say, structs... is it then 'correct' to use my struct accessors on any list? 03:18:12 RaceCondition, however, the spec says that the leftmost supplied argument is the one which gets bound for keywords; thus, it's possible to filter out just the values that you have in keyword arguments. 03:18:13 ah, well, in practice it doesn't probably matter at all anyway 03:18:19 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-151-204-135-88.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:18:32 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-151-204-135-88.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:19:07 RaceCondition: generally, you use something like REMF-PLIST (aka SANS) to remove what you don't want from the &rest plist 03:19:23 remove-property? what are we calling it these days? 03:19:25 drewc: OK 03:19:40 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 03:19:42 how about mixing positional and key arguments in rest? 03:20:30 RaceCondition: you are free to parse the &rest list however you want... however, if you want to use &key, you have to stick to the calling conventions it allows. 03:20:30 RaceCondition, what do you mean? 03:21:14 OK... I guess I'm just too used to what Python allows me to do with arguments 03:21:30 RaceCondition: look at LOOP 03:21:45 can't do that with python's calling conventions :) 03:21:57 of course, I'm not saying Python is better 03:22:25 -!- stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:22:33 RaceCondition: Python is indeed better than most things out there. 03:22:35 RaceCondition: you can do whatever you want with arguments... 03:22:43 perhaps not better than NX, though 03:22:45 Adlai: AMIRITE 03:23:12 RaceCondition: you're just not far enough along in your lisping to realise that what the language offers is only a default, and trivially changed. 03:23:23 *Adlai* laughacepalms 03:23:41 drewc: I know that, as I've said, I'm just exploring 03:23:41 RaceCondition: unlike python, we're not stuck with our function defining form! 03:23:44 :D 03:24:03 drewc: well, sometimes the lack of syntax shows it's slight shortcomings though 03:24:13 RaceCondition: i don't follow 03:24:22 RaceCondition, even lambda-lists are customizable. Macros in fact always take exactly two arguments; DEFMACRO works some "magic" 03:24:34 as is the case with argument passing which seems to be a bit more flexible in Python just because Python's function calls contain a bit more meta-information about the callee 03:24:39 to allow you to write macros with destructuring lambda-lists 03:25:08 Adlai: I don't know anything about lambda-lists yet, but I'll get there :) 03:25:11 RaceCondition: i don't understand how argument passing can be more flexible... 03:25:36 RaceCondition: you have a list of arguments... do what you want with them... that's pretty damn flexible. 03:25:43 drewc: well in Python I can more conveniently mix and match positional, kw, rest-kw and rest-positional stuff 03:25:59 drewc: yeah, but in Python you get an argument list PLUS the meta information about the intent of the caller 03:26:10 anyway, it's not important... I'm gonna continue reading PCL :P 03:26:23 RaceCondition: and you can in lisp too... it would be a fun first macro 03:26:30 I was told today python has no future, some guy's IT lecturer told him, I can't for the life of me think of a reason why it would be true 03:26:42 what meta information about the intent of the caller? It's been a while since i used python.. but... 03:26:57 i don't remember getting meta data along with my arguments... 03:26:59 drewc: well commas and equal signs, nothing more 03:27:27 foo(a, b, c=3, d=4) leaves no doubt for the callee as to whether c and d are positional or kw arguments 03:27:41 -!- rdad [n=rdad@cpe-24-193-112-99.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 03:28:01 in Lisp's (foo a b :c 3 :d 4) it is a matter of interpretation what the 4 last arguments mean 03:28:31 RaceCondition: not if you defined it with &key it's not.... 03:28:46 RaceCondition, also, I'm not sure if you're aware, but optional and keyword arguments have a more intricate syntax than just (&key a b c) 03:29:03 Adlai: you mean (a nil a-p) etc? 03:29:10 yeah 03:29:16 and ((:alpha a) nil a-p) 03:29:24 you can build up similar abstractions yourself 03:29:29 I know that, yes, and that's of course something in which Python is lacking :) 03:29:44 Adlai: no I'm not never trying to say Python is more flexible :P 03:30:05 I wasn't accusing you of that 03:30:46 RaceCondition: if you create a calling convention including more metadata and a macro that parses it, you can have what you want 03:31:11 assuming you can figure out how to actually make such a feature reliable 03:31:19 drewc: (foo :c 3 :d 4) <== Python would figure that out but Lisp would just map :c and 3 to first 2 positional args 03:31:25 and make it useful in the first place 03:31:30 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"] 03:31:53 RaceCondition: and what would it do with the values of the two positional args? 03:32:07 RaceCondition: is python's APPLY full of strange edge cases? 03:32:19 rahul: assuming they were optional, they would just get their defaults 03:32:38 drewc: not that I know 03:32:42 RaceCondition: how can you specify the second optional arg and not the first? 03:32:57 rahul: by passing it as a keyword argument 03:33:01 eh? 03:33:17 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-159-209-174.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 03:33:27 it's a positional arg, not a keyword arg 03:33:30 rahul, you can do foo(a=1, b=2) or foo(b=2, a=1) 03:33:33 def foo(a=0) can be called as foo() and foo(1) or foo(a=1) 03:33:34 RaceCondition: the python way seems horribly inconsistent and error prone to me... you keep calling them 'positional arguments'... but they're not qute, are they. 03:33:59 what if you do foo(1, a=2)? 03:34:03 i mean, if you can change the position of the arg... how positional can it be! 03:34:03 drewc: Python really doesn't distinguish between pos. and kw. args and it's not inconsistent at all, in fact it very consistent and intuitive 03:34:03 :D 03:34:15 rahul, then python gets angry and confused :D 03:34:16 rahul: it would be an error because foo only takes 0 or 1 args 03:34:21 RaceCondition: 'intuitive' eh? 03:34:23 RaceCondition: eh?? 03:34:36 RaceCondition: I only gave it 1 arg! 03:34:50 RaceCondition: (foo :a 1 :a 2) is perfectly legal lisp 03:34:50 you called foo(1, a=2), that's 2 arguments 03:35:00 RaceCondition: nope 03:35:12 RaceCondition: the only arg I've specified there is a 03:35:26 rahul, (foo :a 1 :a 2) is four arguments, which are interpreted as one by the standard keyword argument parsing code 03:35:50 Adlai: and in pythong 1, a=2 is one arg! 03:36:15 *drewc* tunes out 03:36:34 as I said... python gets angry and confused 03:36:44 so there's a strange edge case 03:37:00 and because it doesn't have a condition system, you get dumped with a backtrace and a "Come back soon!" card 03:37:06 haha 03:37:58 do I at least get 20% off on my next execution? 03:38:24 (failed execution, no less) 03:38:51 oh man... i looked up python's apply... 03:39:04 drewc: what do you mean Python's apply? 03:39:15 you don't need apply in Python, I believe it's deprecated 03:39:20 what?? 03:39:23 hahaha 03:39:37 well, no wonder, since their calling convention is so broken 03:39:51 rahul: do you think you are being wise right now? 03:39:59 RaceCondition: 'extended call syntax' is syntax over APPLY 03:40:09 drewc: well, yes 03:40:10 I've been pretty scared of Python ever since I saw Peter Norvig's brief exploration into its AST... 03:40:19 rahul: indeed, that's probably why they deprecated it in favour of syntax 03:40:19 RaceCondition: no, I am observing the results of the unwise 03:40:33 >>> parse("2 + 2") => ['eval_input', ['testlist', ['test', ['and_test', ['not_test', ['comparison', ['expr', ['xor_expr', ['and_expr', ['shift_expr', ['arith_expr', ['term', ['factor', ['power', ['atom', [2, '2']]]]], [14, '+'], ['term', ['factor', ['power', ['atom', [2, '2']]]]]]]]]]]]]]], [4, ''], [0, '']] 03:40:36 drewc: do I even want to know? 03:41:07 that's a parse tree though 03:41:09 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit ["leaving"] 03:41:15 rahul: do you work at USC? 03:41:19 like a BNF parse tree instead of a syntax tree 03:41:23 I prefer my lisp's parse tree 03:41:28 rahul:well, basically you pass the positional arguments as a sequence, and the keywords as the the third argument in a dictionary with strings as keys naming the parameters 03:41:29 eh? 03:41:39 what would working at USC indicate? 03:41:41 kinda interesting anyway 03:41:48 rahul: just asking 03:42:03 drewc, strings? 03:42:06 can't imagine anyone actually wanting to use that information (that parse gives you) 03:42:11 it doesn't even intern symbols? 03:42:15 Adlai: what, do you expect symbols? 03:42:18 haha 03:42:20 well I guess it's just part of the implementation? 03:42:21 Ruby has symbols 03:42:24 Adlai: I believe Python's strings are all interned 03:42:27 Adlai: python doesn't have namespaces 03:42:29 rahul: i think he's stalking you at teh google! 03:42:39 *Adlai* shudders and bolts 03:42:42 Adlai: you mean packages or a separation of variables/functions? 03:42:51 drewc: apparently he's stalking someone else, tho :P 03:43:04 RaceCondition, I mean interning of strings into symbols 03:43:32 rahul: there is a rahul at USC with some lisp related papers, but it was hard to find him as you're a little more prominent when i search with the expected keywords 03:43:32 Adlai: yeah, I'm pretty sure strings are always interned in python 03:43:35 Adlai: I mean, 'foo' and 'foo' in Python are the same object 03:43:42 oh, ok 03:43:46 drewc: interesting 03:44:03 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:44:15 RaceCondition: is that only for literal strings? 03:44:18 drewc: is this that rahul who was trying to write a lisp for .NET? 03:44:27 drewc: I'm not sure, I'll see 03:44:32 RaceCondition: and if not, does that not completely break garbage collection? 03:44:50 um 03:45:04 drewc: that wouldn't be the first thing breaking python's gc 03:45:10 drewc: a = 'foo'; b = 'f' + 'oo'; id(a) == id(b) 03:46:20 drewc: but there are exceptions, as far as I remember, regarding the building of strings using some other methods... 03:46:22 drewc: at least they were smarter than perl and realized that they should actually GC 03:46:54 drewc: but they only GC under some specific circumstances 03:47:06 RaceCondition: that is scary... you mean i cannot use more strings in the lifetime of my program than i have memory, or is pythons concept of object identity broken? 03:47:17 dys` [n=andreas@krlh-5f72ec61.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 03:47:22 hopefully you don't get stuck in a situation where you need a GC but python decides that you're not worthy of one 03:47:39 i thought people told me python was a good language? are these just implementation issues or is the design as frail as it seems? 03:47:49 drewc: I really don't understand the question, but I'm also not seeing why the bashing 03:48:09 RaceCondition: he's not bashing python. python is bashing itself. 03:48:22 whatever 03:49:19 RaceCondition: i'm trying to learn... i've been offered python work and have always though i'd enjoy the language.... but this is not good news. 03:49:56 drewc: you are serious that string interning internals make Python a good or a bad language? 03:50:01 RaceCondition: when does a string get garbage collected if they are all interned? 03:50:01 python is basically perl designed by a teacher 03:50:17 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:50:18 a teacher who doesn't understand tail call optimisation or the value of functions as data 03:50:22 :-( 03:50:24 drewc: weak hash table would work. 03:50:27 drewc, maybe they're weakly interned 03:50:35 drewc: are you trying to say that a language such as Python does not GC strings? cmon.. 03:50:47 RaceCondition: no, you said that :) 03:50:49 RaceCondition: he's asking hwther they are. 03:51:04 I really don't know how Python's GC works 03:51:17 since you call it a GC, you clearly don't 03:51:28 pkhuong: i suppose... but are there not massive performance implications? 03:51:39 drewc: I don't see why. 03:52:11 rahul: being funny? 03:52:17 RaceCondition: no 03:52:21 RaceCondition: s/funny/a dick/ 03:52:21 good 03:52:43 RaceCondition: learn what a GC is and learn how python manages memory 03:52:56 rahul: you do that for me 03:53:13 RaceCondition, you don't need to; you're in the land of lisp now! (so learn what a GC is and learn how your CL implementation manages memory) 03:53:19 once you've recovered from boggling at python, you'll understand why you can't use the term gc with python without reservation 03:53:35 Adlai: I was just about to say that I'm gonna continue reading PCL :P 03:53:42 RaceCondition: um, I can't inject knowledge into your mind 03:53:51 rahul: I don't see how python's GC isn't a GC. 03:53:56 especially when your "cup" is already full 03:54:33 pkhuong: how does python decide when you should get a GC or not? 03:54:56 wait.. are python strings mutable? 03:55:03 drewc: no, immutable 03:55:08 ah ok! 03:55:12 I don't see how a cycle detector can be enabled or disabled without having a cycle detector 03:55:32 that's where i was confused as hell with the interning bit. 03:55:35 rahul: what's the difference with generational GCs? 03:55:44 drewc: I should have mentioned that detail 03:55:51 pkhuong: generational GCs will GC at one point or another 03:56:05 rahul: a major GC? Might never happen. 03:56:07 pkhuong: python needs to somehow be convinced that there is a need for GC 03:56:31 python's GIL is more problematic than its GC 03:57:02 bill`: oh, I forgot about that farce 03:57:22 -!- JohnnyL [i=excellen@ool-182f0b98.dyn.optonline.net] has left #lisp 03:57:23 RaceCondition: yeah, i can live with a funky apply and calling conventions... mutable interned string OTOH, i couldn't figure out for the life of me. 03:57:51 drewc: just curious: what's wrong with the calling conventions? 03:58:01 wakeup^ [n=wakeup@koln-5d819027.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 03:58:18 and apply... 03:58:21 rahul: so would a generational gc. 03:58:25 -!- dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f735269.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [No route to host] 03:58:44 It's the same thing... Something to handle most of the workload and something else for correctness. 03:58:44 RaceCondition: the 'argument list' is no such thing. this complicates APPLY and a lot of other functional idioms 03:59:02 drewc: complicates for the interpreter/compiler or the programmer? 03:59:24 RaceCondition: both 03:59:46 drewc: you mean that there are two lists, one for positional and one for kw args? 03:59:47 Or you could RTFM if you're really worried about the details: "the collector keeps track of the number object allocations and deallocations since the last collection. When the number of allocations minus the number of deallocations exceeds threshold0, collection starts." 04:00:03 RaceCondition: be careful... the kw args don't come in a list. 04:00:17 drewc: yes, a dictionary 04:00:44 drewc: but what functional idioms does it complicate? I'd just like to know because I do Python almost every day 04:02:20 any gsll users here? 04:02:56 pkhuong: except that the correctness is enabled in python based on ... well, I don't know what 04:03:18 rahul: neither do you know with a "generational gc". 04:03:44 and if you've read the snippet I just quoted, you do know now. 04:04:16 oh ok 04:04:31 so it's kind of like bytes consed 04:04:42 seems reasonable enough 04:05:00 *rahul* is a little less scared by python's GC now 04:05:09 but the lack of threadability is pretty lame 04:05:32 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 04:05:48 RaceCondition: well, is not pretty much any combinator made more complex by the fact that there are multiple mechanisms by which a function may get its agruments? 04:06:12 and some of those mechanisms forbid others 04:06:16 drewc: no, unless you use *args and/or **kwargs catch-alls 04:06:20 for that specific case 04:07:02 RaceCondition: foo(1, a=1) being an error is a major problem 04:07:18 rahul: not really, unless you bring me a real life example 04:07:23 (apply foo :a 1 args) is a common idiom in lisp 04:07:25 RaceCondition: so, the feature is not a problem if you don't use it .... 04:08:30 drewc: can't you use it when it's appropriate and doesn't cause problems? besides, we were initially talking about the flexibility of being able to mix kw and pos. args... and that can be done with any function without it even knowing it 04:08:34 RaceCondition: providing defaulting in different ways for different call pathways 04:08:47 RaceCondition: trivial in lisp, apparently impossible in python? 04:09:00 rahul: maybe you think too much in terms of what you usually do in Lisp 04:09:15 rahul: well, doesn't that apply to most things about most non-Lisp languages? 04:09:38 RaceCondition: um python has keyword args 04:09:42 -!- wakeup [n=wakeup@koln-5d8154ee.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:09:50 rahul: oh 04:09:53 RaceCondition: this has to do with calling convention 04:10:01 not to do with macros or anything like that 04:10:09 it seems to be fundamentally broken 04:10:17 well whatever you say 04:10:52 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has quit [Client Quit] 04:11:01 RaceCondition: i'm not sure you and i are on the same page. 04:11:02 I guess you can manipulate the kwargs directly 04:11:12 oh wait you can't 04:11:19 drewc: what do you mean? 04:11:26 you need to figure out what is in the positional args, too 04:11:56 rahul: are you even familiar with Python at all? 04:12:08 oh, is foo(x=1, 5) allowed in python? 04:12:20 benny [n=benny@i577A83ED.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 04:12:21 rahul: no 04:12:35 ok, that kind of makes sense 04:12:37 i thought it was? 04:12:55 so you're not free to mix keyword and positional args freely. 04:13:11 yeah 04:13:16 of course not, but you can choose whether you pass an argument as a positional or as a kw argument 04:13:16 RaceCondition: didn't you want to do that in lisp? 04:13:22 rahul: no 04:13:24 drewc: Maybe Guido used CLIM at some point in the past ;) 04:13:30 um, you asked how to do it in lisp 04:13:37 rahul: maybe you misunderstood me 04:13:50 -!- Madsy [n=madsy@fu/coder/madsy] has quit ["leaving"] 04:14:15 -!- Dodek [i=dodek@wikipedia/Dodek] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:14:17 sellout: from what i've learned, i'd be surprised if Guido used more than QBASIC before setting out to do python, but maybe RaceCondition is only confusing me. 04:14:42 drewc: well, the point of python was to be the next generation of BASIC 04:14:51 same goal 04:15:07 well, what the hell were Norvig and Graham on about then? 04:15:09 the current crop of contempory language designers seem to think that originality comes form not knowing the origins of any of the current languages that are hip 04:15:45 drewc: coping with their lot in life 04:15:48 like you learn to make websites in ruby or write something in C then make a new language that's exactly the same but with different keywords 04:15:59 i heard python was an acceptable lisp... but i guess my acceptance tests are stricter :) 04:16:05 drewc: it's easier to lie to yourself than to realize that you're stuck with something inferior 04:16:20 drewc: neither of the two need to actually write any code any more, anyway 04:17:05 that's true... and only one of them was any good in the first place. 04:17:42 yeah, the other one is still trying to follow soupdragon's guide to conteporary language design 04:18:12 funny 'cause it's true! 04:18:27 (if that moniker sticks, people will blame soupdragon for arc's existence) 04:20:18 RaceCondition: does python have the ability to introspect the argument names of a function it's calling? 04:20:55 wait... in python you can pass the _same_ arg as a positional or a keyword? 04:21:11 drewc: no, it causes your program to crash, apparently 04:21:21 now i'm really confused. 04:21:27 i'm going to go play with haskell 04:21:30 oh no 04:21:39 I mean you can't pass it as both 04:21:46 you can pass it as one or the other 04:21:59 rahul: yes, you can choose 04:22:10 but if it's passed positionally, you have to remove it from the keyword args 04:22:11 drewc heh what 04:22:18 but either/or... it's not in the specification of the interface but rather arbitrary? 04:22:23 rahul: what do you mean remove it from kw args? 04:22:25 but I fully expect that there's no way of knowing 04:22:32 soupdragon: i _love_ haskell for playing. 04:22:35 RaceCondition: if it's already in the keyword args 04:22:42 drewc check out linear implicit parameters if you like haskells uniformity and all that 04:22:47 drewc: exactly 04:22:58 soupdragon: you mean currying? 04:23:02 rahul: what does "in keyword args" mean for you? 04:23:05 soupdragon: i learn something in haskell, translate it to scheme, and then if it's useful it comes to work with me in CL form :) 04:23:11 RaceCondition: in the kwargs 04:23:17 rahul no it's this insane feature that I think beats python in terms of 'wtf' 04:23:18 rahul: what is kwargs?? 04:23:31 ?? 04:23:46 you mean the catch-all-kwargs-argument a function can define? 04:23:51 drewc that's a nice idea.. scheme as language-designers quarantine 04:23:55 what? 04:24:00 you can't pass it? 04:24:04 oh my god 04:24:09 this gets worse and worse 04:24:10 rahul: I can't pass what?? 04:24:17 rahul: you can. 04:24:21 ok 04:24:23 rahul: you get the kwargs as a dict 04:24:25 whew 04:24:37 drewc: yuo get only those that didn't match the define arg list 04:24:39 right, and you can pass it down to another function right? 04:24:52 of course you can 04:25:19 but if you pass both positional and a kwargs dict, you have no clue if your program is going to blow up or not 04:25:30 rahul: yeah, it's a real dict.. this is why APPLY takes 3 args 04:25:42 rahul: how come? 04:25:45 (APPLY FN ARGS KWARGS) basically 04:26:01 RaceCondition: because you don't know if you violated the calling convention 04:26:18 rahul: can you bring an example? 04:26:42 um, the first one I ever gave to you 04:26:46 foo(1, a=1) 04:26:57 is there an inferior-python mode? I have some questions and i don't think RaceCondition can answer them. 04:26:59 poof! server dies. 04:27:07 well that's crap because if you know what foo takes, you're not going to call it that way 04:27:07 drewc: I believe so 04:27:13 M-x run-python, right? 04:27:28 rahul: brilliant, cheers! 04:27:59 RaceCondition: how do you know what an arbitrary function pointer's arglist is? 04:28:17 rahul: as I said, you think too much in terms of what patterns you usually use in lisp 04:28:19 in lisp, you just need to know the shape of the arglist 04:28:35 in python you need to know the exact names and order 04:28:54 rahul: of course you don't, you need to know just the number 04:28:56 RaceCondition: saphir whorf... you'd use these 'patterns' too if you knew them 04:28:57 RaceCondition: and there's no comparable pattern in python 04:28:59 RaceCondition: wrong 04:29:07 RaceCondition: you need to know the names and the order 04:29:12 no you don't 04:29:26 RaceCondition: you do if you care about reliability of your program 04:29:40 if it's ok for it to crash, then you don't need to know 04:29:51 you're talking crap, sorry 04:30:00 RaceCondition: foo(1, a=1) 04:30:08 tell me, what is wrong with that syntax? 04:30:29 rahul: give up already 04:30:30 because it causes python to crash depending on what foo is 04:30:56 rahul: you are saying that Lisp doesn't crach when you call a function with a wrong number of arguments?? 04:31:00 crash* 04:31:03 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:31:04 RaceCondition: it doesn't 04:31:07 but that's a different story 04:31:14 I know what you mean, but still 04:31:37 RaceCondition: it's not a wrong number of args 04:31:45 it's a wrong _combination_ of args 04:32:00 and it's the calling convention that creates this 04:32:07 so how would Lisp handle it?? 04:32:17 the problem doesn't exist in lisp 04:32:17 other than throwing you into the debugger 04:32:24 um 04:32:49 23:31 < RaceCondition> I know what you mean, but still <--- ok, you don't know 04:32:55 if you do (foo 1 :a 1) in Lisp for a function (defun foo (a) ...), there wouldn't be a problem? 04:33:05 . . . 04:33:41 RaceCondition: no, if you do (defun foo (&key a) ...) (foo :a 1 :a 1) there's no problem 04:33:55 23:32 < rahul> the problem doesn't exist in lisp 04:34:03 hrm... 04:34:05 lisp has a clear calling convention 04:34:05 rahul: but it's a different example 04:34:13 RaceCondition: no, it's not 04:34:18 it's a function with one arg called a 04:34:28 RaceCondition: I think rahul means to say that def foo(a=1, b=2): print a, b ... foo(5, b=6) works, foo(5, a=6) doesn't 04:34:33 rahul: you're just arguing for the sake of arguing 04:34:40 explicit return? is there a statement/expression dichotomy in python as well? 04:34:49 drewc: of course there is 04:34:51 *drewc* doesn't like it! 04:35:02 RaceCondition: the problem is that an argument is *both* positional and named, and you need to know the order of the arguments to see how whether a given call is correct. 04:35:13 i don't mind the syntax, strangely. 04:35:17 pkhuong: but why is having to know that a bad thing? 04:35:46 pkhuong: of course you cannot do tricky stuff like you probably can in Lisp, but isn't that trivial that Python is different? 04:36:06 RaceCondition: because BOTH order and name matter in python 04:36:07 -!- mischievous [n=mischief@unaffiliated/mischief] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:36:14 in lisp EITHER order or name matters 04:36:22 and, in fact, name doesn't matter at all 04:36:34 just the externally visible "name" 04:36:47 drewc: Guido wanted to teach, not learn! 04:36:53 RaceCondition: more stuff to keep track of. 04:36:56 if he wanted to learn, he would have used lisp 04:37:19 pkhuong: I've never hit that problem really 04:37:50 RaceCondition: using "different" as a synonym for "less" is very cute :) 04:37:55 but at least now you understand what rahul meant. 04:37:56 pkhuong: you're probably seeing this from a FP point of which in which case, yes, it's probably bad how Python does things, but you don't really do a lot of FP in Python anyway 04:38:12 RaceCondition: because you've been scared of using things that might trigger that problem 04:38:20 rahul: if you're trying to prove that Python is inferior to Lisp, then why bother? I know that already 04:38:28 RaceCondition: scared of having functionality that would trigger it, even 04:38:29 rahul: you mean FP? 04:38:38 RaceCondition: no, I mean using apply 04:38:51 rahul: I use apply all the time without problems 04:38:57 This isn't related to functional programming. I don't even have an opinion on the topic. At least now you understand what rahul means. 04:39:12 pkhuong: yes, but he could still be less of a dick 04:39:23 RaceCondition: how many times have you passed both pos and kw args to it? 04:39:40 rahul: I don't keep count 04:39:50 RaceCondition: you've done it once? 04:39:57 *rahul* facepalm 04:40:05 RaceCondition: then you have a problem if you try to pass arguments positionally 04:40:07 -!- Guest44084 [n=x@research.suspicious.org] has left #lisp 04:40:16 xristos [n=x@research.suspicious.org] has joined #lisp 04:40:28 RaceCondition: you should NEVER EVER pass both pos and kw args to apply in python 04:40:45 how often do you mix positional and kw args in Lisp, btw? I mean with apply 04:40:46 just like optional and rest in lisp 04:41:00 RaceCondition: any time you use OOP 04:41:11 RaceCondition: all the time.... 04:41:13 rahul: but now think about redefinition where the once non-key parameters turn into key-parameters 04:41:16 RaceCondition: make-instance has 1 positional arg and any number of kw args 04:41:27 (apply #'make-instance class initargs) 04:41:42 adeht: that's a change in api 04:41:58 -!- Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:42:12 rahul: python will let you get away with it, as long as you don't pass the same argument both ways 04:42:27 adeht: your example with foo(a, b) previosly, how does that work in Lisp?? 04:42:28 adeht: and you don't know if you are passing it both ways 04:42:59 RaceCondition: lisp draws a distinction between kw and pos args! 04:43:05 RaceCondition: that is the whole point 04:43:06 RaceCondition: it doesn't work in Lisp, because you can't pass key parameters positionally 04:43:28 you choose one or the other, otherwise, you end up with this mess you have in python 04:43:39 well, but that was my origianl point -- it doesn't work in Lisp and does work in Python (irrespective of the problems caused by it) 04:44:01 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 04:44:12 if "works" means "can't figure out whether your program will crash or not" ok 04:44:12 rahul: can't you choose one or the other in Python? if you just pass *args or just **kwargs to apply 04:44:13 wait.... you never know if your arg is in the dict or in the list right? 04:44:32 drewc: as the callee? 04:44:41 I don't think you can tell 04:44:42 rahul: yeah 04:44:48 lpolzer_ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-238-023.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 04:44:56 RaceCondition: no 04:45:01 the caller gets to choose, it could differ at each call site? 04:45:15 drewc: right 04:45:23 RaceCondition: it's not my choice to make 04:45:49 rahul: apply(fun, [], {...}) or apply(fun, [...], {}), now? what am I missing? 04:45:58 now=no 04:46:02 RaceCondition: have you ever used a library? 04:46:11 rahul: no, it's my first day programming 04:46:20 apparently 04:46:27 great, I'll continue with PCL now 04:46:28 OK? 04:46:44 RaceCondition: if you've ever used a library, you've violated your rule 04:47:14 because you've clearly called a function in it differently than someone else in the world has 04:48:14 rares [n=rares@174-26-125-138.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 04:48:18 rahul: I don't know why you are wasting your time on me 04:48:37 -!- rares [n=rares@174-26-125-138.phnx.qwest.net] has left #lisp 04:48:40 rahul: you should start charging for private tuition 04:48:41 RaceCondition: I don't see how you think it's rational to provide both choices and then dictate that everyone only use one choice 04:49:07 xristos: people don't pay to learn 04:49:16 they pay to get grades 04:50:12 and any grades I give will be ignored, and anything I teach won't help them do the crap they need to do to get grades in classes :P 04:50:26 e.g., write python code :) 04:50:37 rahul: you definitely need teaching in how to teach and generally treat people 04:50:57 RaceCondition: who said I was trying to teach you anything? 04:51:02 RaceCondition: don't bother, it's a lost cause. 04:51:10 I was trying to find something out 04:51:22 sykopomp: he keeps highlighting my name and I don't like ignoring people :P 04:51:27 and the answer was worse than I imagined 04:51:53 sykopomp: don't you have gerd-pcl to reimplement? :) 04:51:54 trying to pretend rahul can ever be a functional, empathic member of society won't get you anywhere. That much, I've figured out. 04:52:04 haha 04:52:15 I tend to ignore what he says unless he tries to communicate it in a way that doesn't make him seem like a douche. 04:52:32 he starts sounding like a broken record after a while. 04:52:56 well, I've wasted 2 hours now, I'll finally get to something meaningful... 04:52:58 sykopomp: your bruised ego is showing... 04:53:12 see? 04:53:20 it goes on like this :P 04:53:20 kids... please! i'll turn this car around! 04:53:42 sykopomp: you attacking rahul's personality is somehow better then him attacking a wrong idea? 04:53:43 drewc, why? I think they both enjoy these chitchats. 04:54:02 drewc: rahul never attacks wrong ideas, he attacks people. 04:54:12 and I criticize him directly for that. 04:54:21 RaceCondition: the thing is.. in CL if you have foo (&key a) and do (foo :a 3 :a 5) you get a sensible result 04:54:25 Adlai: i don't. i was enjoying the learning and the discussion, but sykopomp appears to prefer to talk about rahul than lisp or python 04:54:51 python was barely on topic, rahul is definitely not! 04:54:53 ._________ 04:54:53 (--[ .][ .] / #lisp! 04:54:53 (______O__) 04:55:19 adeht: in reality, you only need that, I think, when passing on kw-args and merging them, right? you wouldn't literally be calling foo(a=1, a=2) 04:55:21 what the hell was that? 04:55:55 RaceCondition: i'm thinking of the simplest case : implementing FUNCALL in terms of APPLY. 04:56:11 RaceCondition: . . . so you were just being intentionally obtuse... 04:56:21 RaceCondition: you would, because you can.. in Python you'd have to fudge the arglist to make something sensible happen 04:56:22 adeht: so in Pyton, you kwargs={'a': 1}; kwargs.update({'a': 2'}); foo(**kwargs) 04:56:24 RaceCondition: you DID understand the use case I was presenting 04:56:44 adeht: you'd have to fudge the arglist in ways you wouldn't be able to predict 04:56:45 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Client Quit] 04:56:55 well, if you eliminated positional args from the language 04:56:58 RaceCondition: in lisp it's a simple (defun funcall (fn &rest args) (apply fn args)) ... i can't figure out how do to this in python without a lot of work 04:57:09 rahul: oh right.. it's dicts, can you even do that? :) 04:57:37 adeht: I don't know. RaceCondition got all emotional when I asked him. 04:57:43 drewc: you get a set of kw args in, and you want to pass those on to foo while defining/overriding a key -- is that what you mean? 04:58:36 RaceCondition: no... kw or positional... how do i apply a function directly to the arglist of another function. 04:58:40 RaceCondition: can dicts have multiple identical keys? and do they maintain their order?... ;) 04:58:51 adeht: no and no 04:58:55 heh 04:59:07 adeht: but that's why there's two separate arglists to apply 04:59:11 drewc: why is that important? for the sake of shortness of the syntax? 04:59:21 wait a second 04:59:41 RaceCondition: nvm, i don't think you're the person i should be asking. 04:59:48 how do you get a list of both positional and keyword args passed to you? 04:59:55 -!- kwinz3_ [n=kwinz@85.125.183.138] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:00:05 def foo(*args, **kwargs), if you mean catch-all 05:00:06 oh, drewc: is that ^ what you are asking? 05:00:24 madsy [n=madsy@ti0207a340-0191.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 05:00:35 what about def foo(fn, *args, **kwargs) ? 05:00:36 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 05:00:38 rahul: no, i'm asking if you can implement funcall in terms of apply without jumping through a lot of hoops. 05:00:47 oh, I guess I can just pull a value from args 05:00:52 -!- lpolzer__ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-196-235.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:01:09 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 05:01:09 rahul: foo(fn, *args, **kwargs) is totally OK 05:01:10 but how do I get the arglist of fn? 05:01:22 -!- larry65 [n=larry@d122-105-194-67.meb12.vic.optusnet.com.au] has left #lisp 05:01:25 so that I can put the arg in the right place 05:01:44 and possibly remove from args or move them all to kwargs? 05:02:21 you know, there's only one other language that has this feature, by the way... 05:02:53 at least only one other that I know of 05:03:20 personally, i think haskell gets it pretty close to right... functions only take one argument... live with it. :) 05:03:27 heh 05:03:33 (And then pile on syntax to make it less painful...) 05:03:52 drewc: functions only take one arg in lisp, too :) 05:04:02 (and pile on syntax to make it less painful) 05:04:12 *araujo* points lambda calculus functions only takes one arguments 05:04:24 rahul: that's hard to argue against. 05:04:44 i think it is the same for lisp 05:04:46 macros take two, however 05:04:48 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441045.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 05:04:49 ;) 05:04:51 hicx174 [n=hicx174@211.44.210.50] has joined #lisp 05:05:18 (whole and env) 05:05:48 tolstoy [n=tolstoy@c-98-246-158-241.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:06:45 no, i'm going to argue against it! Lisp functions take multiple arguments, not a list of arguments, in opposition with VALUES. which is not a LIST of values... 05:07:06 you pretty much can decompose multi-args notation into single-args , because that is how mathematically works , i think several arguments functions are just a notation thing 05:07:09 one can get the args as a list, and one can turn the VALUES into a list ...but ... 05:07:17 drewc: they return multiple args 05:07:19 they only take one 05:07:24 blah... this is a boring argument already. 05:07:36 :D 05:07:45 drewc: &rest is syntax to get back at the one true arg to the function :) 05:09:09 damnit... i know i can make a point about (Defun foo (a b) ...) (foo a) being an error and not returning a curried function, i'm just not sure where i can go from there. 05:09:19 as far as i know lisp does like this internally??? , i guess some implementations could work like this, i wouldn't be surprised, i mean, just taking one single argument 05:09:39 drewc: the arg passed to foo in that call is (list a) 05:10:01 drewc: which the syntax layer determines doesn't match the structure of (a b) 05:10:23 araujo: most implementations work that way 05:10:45 araujo: but they allocate the arg list on the stack 05:10:53 rahul, yeah, this highly reduce complexity in the implementation 05:11:01 that's wrong 05:11:15 araujo: however, they maybe have an optimized entry point as well 05:11:50 CCL has "multiple arguments" -- it passes three arguments in registers. 05:12:05 (when there are more that three arguments, yes, it uses the stack) 05:12:09 *than 05:12:23 but that's implementation layer. What's the "logical" model of what a function takes? I'm not sure anything says either way 05:12:28 rahul: you are talking about implementation details, i'm talking about the semantics of the language. 05:12:53 Adlai: does that mean that apply pops args to fill registers and then calls the function? 05:12:53 Phoodus, "logical" model as in "mathematically model" ? 05:13:04 Phoodus: the "logical" model of CL is that a function can receive multiple parameters 05:13:05 i don't get three stack frames when i call a 3-ary function 05:13:06 drewc: I'd say vice versa :) 05:13:24 drewc: no, you get one stack frame with a 3-element list 05:13:27 araujo: semantic would be a better word, as drewc used 05:13:33 Phoodus, mathematically lambda calculus functions just take 1 argument , and any lambda language should follow that 05:13:44 rahul: there is no list unless i ask for it 05:14:01 rahul: you are confusing &rest with how the implementation actually passes arguments 05:14:02 drewc: for apply to exist, there is a list 05:14:08 rahul: bullshit 05:14:21 I think also keywords back the list side of the argument 05:14:29 Phoodus, multiple arguments are just syntax sugar 05:14:36 for lambda calculus 05:14:56 araujo: thinking lisp is lambda calculus is the wrong tack, IMO. 05:14:58 araujo: are you saying that lisp functions == lambda calculus? 05:15:08 drewc, lisp is based on lambda calculus 05:15:13 araujo: no, it's not 05:15:17 Phoodus, ^^ 05:15:35 araujo: you need to read a little history my friend.... otherwise the taste of sock had better be a favorite. 05:15:46 McCarthy didn't understand lambda calc 05:15:56 never really even tried 05:15:59 rahul, what is based then? , as far as i know , lambda is the whole model lisp is based 05:16:03 (until later) 05:16:07 I know enough lambda calculus to know that lisp ain't it 05:16:16 basic lambda calculus is not that hard :P 05:16:20 araujo: no, lisp is based on lists and symbols 05:16:31 -!- Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-25-223.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 05:16:49 and integers, if you're a fan of PicoLisp :P 05:16:50 araujo: basic lambda calculus was way beyond the conception of practical CS at the time 05:16:52 saying that functions only take one parameter is like saying that C programmers use monads all the time, or that the capitalists do their share, knowingly or unknowingly, to further the inevitable social revolution 05:17:13 rahul, you do nothing with simple lists and symbols , lambda calculus help you to work around the lists and symbols 05:17:16 araujo: lisp needed to be understood before they could do lambda calc in software 05:17:16 it's looking for confirming instances of your theory and finding them everywhere 05:17:36 araujo: you don't need lambda calc to compute 05:17:58 rahul, if you remove lambda calculus out of lisp , i doubt you will end up with lisp as it is now 05:18:14 araujo: right. you end up with lisp as it was originally 05:18:17 adeht: that was a very reasoned argument... unfortunately, now i don't know what i believe! :P 05:18:39 rahul, you talking about 57 lisp? 05:18:58 araujo: what were you talking about? 05:18:59 araujo: how do keywords fit in your lambda calculus model? 05:19:02 that only mccarthy knew , and wrote the implementation in a piece of paper? 05:19:03 I am not sure what 'lambda calculus' means exactly 05:19:07 I don't see lambda calculus in lisp, just a symbol named "LAMBDA" 05:19:10 because lisp does have lambda in it.. so what's the issues? 05:19:36 Phoodus, lambda calculus don't define keywords , i guess there could be some way of getting such a thing with lambda calculus though 05:19:42 soupdragon: wave mechanics also has lambda in it 05:20:03 araujo: might that be a hint that lisp isn't lambda calculus? :) 05:20:11 Phoodus: no 05:20:14 drewc: was it the monads analogy? :) 05:20:15 rahul I don't know what you mean there 05:20:17 Phoodus, read again, i never said lisp is lambda calculus 05:20:23 evidently is not 05:20:29 adeht: yeah :D 05:20:34 though it is based for function application 05:20:35 -!- chiiph [n=chiiph@190.1.21.180] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:20:51 anyway, I've got to replace a failing HD. I'll let you guys continue splitting hairs :) 05:20:57 araujo: is but not was 05:21:21 well, mccacrthy 57 piece of paper doesn't count here 05:21:23 :P 05:21:30 araujo: does MacLISP count? 05:21:31 chiiph [n=chiiph@190.1.21.180] has joined #lisp 05:21:32 lambda calculus is a formal system for function definition and application... lisp is a programming language ... 05:21:47 :| 05:21:55 drewc, but they're both turing complete so uh uh 05:21:56 drewc, if you can't see relation man ... :P 05:22:01 isn't lambda calculus turing complete ? 05:22:11 TR2N: yes 05:22:54 araujo: are you saying that using the same letter means that one thing is based on another? 05:23:00 once could compile lisp to lambda calculus, but where would you run it? 05:23:14 rahul, not talking about an implementation here, but about the language 05:23:17 araujo: does that mean that Java is based on APL because they both have a? 05:23:42 djinni` [n=djinni`@adsl-71-142-227-255.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:23:48 araujo, CL as a language can do things that the lambda calculus can't 05:23:51 i think this is not difficult to understand or find out there, that lisp is a lambda calculus based language 05:23:53 araujo: the language in what year? 05:24:00 Adlai: that's not true 05:24:04 Adlai, mm.. evidently, but i don't argue that 05:24:07 (get-internal-real-time) => 9005117016 05:24:14 Adlai: lambda calc cal do anything a computer can 05:24:24 rahul, why you need year? 05:24:29 Adlai: you can describe that in lambda calc 05:24:33 what's the lambda calc for get-internal-real-time? or for drakma:http-request? 05:24:35 ah...this is the original paper: http://www.cs.nccu.edu.tw/~chenk/Courses/PL/Papers/Mccarthy-Lisp60.pdf 05:24:38 the lisp language as originally spread 05:24:44 araujo: because it's different in different years 05:24:58 drewc: it's great to have another way of interpreting something.. but rather sad to claim it's the only way when there's obviously a competing interpretation that fits the bill 05:25:31 adeht: you talked about how to implement funcall with apply in python? 05:25:39 RaceCondition: no 05:26:06 araujo: McCarthy himself said that lisp is not based on lambda calc 05:26:21 RaceCondition: that was me... but i gave up.. why, have you a link or some code? 05:26:22 araujo: and McCarthy didn't know lambda calc when he invented lisp 05:26:46 araujo: so I can't see how you think that McCarthy is wrong about how he designed his own language 05:26:58 drewc: well, now I see what funcall means in Lisp, why would you ever want to do that in Python? it's built in to the syntax 05:27:09 -!- djinni` [n=djinni`@adsl-71-142-227-255.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:27:10 TR2N, that paper already uses lambda calculus 05:27:15 rahul, ^^ 05:27:21 araujo: wrong 05:27:29 rahul, it is there 05:27:31 djinni` [n=djinni`@adsl-71-142-227-255.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:27:32 araujo: nope 05:27:38 drewc: but if you need it, def funcall(fn, *args, **kwargs): return fn(*args, **kwargs) 05:27:41 i am reading it now 05:27:41 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.139.217.33] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:27:49 araujo: then you are reading it incorrectly 05:28:06 rahul, so lisp doesn't use lambda calculus? 05:28:18 "use"? 05:28:23 araujo: what do you mean "use" 05:28:25 what does that even mean? 05:28:32 drewc: is that what you meant? or did I misunderstand you? 05:28:37 rahul: Alonzo Church's "The Calculi of Lambda-Conversion" is the 3rd bibliographic reference on 1958 McCarthy original LISP paper. (check page 195/12) 05:28:39 where does lisp use anything? 05:28:43 TR2N, hehehe 05:28:54 TR2N, no point to argue with him about this ... 05:28:59 TR2N: he didn't understand the paper 05:29:01 *araujo* guesses he should get more caffeine 05:29:06 rahul, (defpackage #:lisp (:use :cl)) right there! :D 05:29:07 RaceCondition: yeah, that's what i'm looking for, and that's what i thought. 05:29:12 heh 05:29:13 RaceCondition: thanks! 05:29:30 drewc: so does this change any of your opinions? 05:29:49 TR2N: he didn't learn lambda calc, he just read the paper 05:29:59 drewc: I couldn't really follow what people were saying/meaning before 05:30:00 RaceCondition: no, it's exactly the hack i thought it had to be 05:30:17 drewc: but why is it a hack? what should it be instead? 05:31:08 drewc: * and ** are just sort of splat/collect operators depending on syntactic context 05:31:16 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@174-17-22-62.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:31:31 RaceCondition: you have two argument lists, and no way to know which one your argument is in! 05:31:43 RaceCondition: this doesn't matter for the most part, 05:31:44 kenanb [n=kenanb@88.238.35.158] has joined #lisp 05:31:59 but when you have functions that manipulate and return functions, 05:32:02 (until you try to modify the args) 05:32:06 it's nice to be able to reason about them. 05:32:15 and what rahul said. 05:32:24 -!- tolstoy [n=tolstoy@c-98-246-158-241.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has left #lisp 05:32:29 drewc: what I was asking before was a real life example of a situation in which the foo(5, a=6) etc problem would show itself 05:32:31 then you have no clue what to modify because you don't know where it is 05:32:53 RaceCondition: CL's make-instance 05:33:04 rahul: no, not you again 05:33:07 wrapping it to create a constructor 05:33:14 RaceCondition: I am not make-instance 05:33:36 why would you need CL's make-instance in Python? 05:33:52 oh, python eschews the factory pattern? 05:34:12 RaceCondition: but there was another issue, that of overriding an argument 05:34:14 rahul: I don't really know what you mean by that, but in Python, classes are functions which you can call in any way you like 05:34:15 make-instance is just a factory. any factory has this problem. 05:34:27 -!- keltor [n=keltor@unaffiliated/keltor] has left #lisp 05:34:37 RaceCondition: it's as if a blind person is asking me what use i have for colour... it's not that i don't want to tell you, it's just that i can't figure out how to frame it in a way that would make sense to you... 05:34:55 drewc: maybe you think too much in terms of Lisp? 05:35:03 RaceCondition: opening a file, then? 05:35:21 RaceCondition: lol, non. 05:36:04 (defun open-log-file (file &rest options) (apply #'open file :direction :append :if-not-exists :create options)) 05:36:41 oh, OK, I get it now 05:36:44 lol 05:37:06 RaceCondition: perhaps you think to much in terms of the insular world you program in, as to assume i know nothing but lisp is a big mistake. 05:37:51 drewc: maybe this is just a problem of miscommunaction? it's a bit arrogant of you to think I program in some insular word 05:37:57 drewc: many people make that mistake, so he's not very lonely ;) 05:38:21 RaceCondition: um, you've demonstrated that you program in an insular world 05:38:25 haha 05:38:41 RaceCondition: it's not arrogant for you to assume i 'think too much in terms of lisp'? 05:38:46 I guess I have to change my world to match what you say, rahul 05:38:58 adeht: fair enough :D 05:39:12 RaceCondition: no, you just choose to define the world as not containing what you haven't seen 05:39:29 and then you argue with anyone else who has seen and done more than you 05:40:16 wtf is this guy's problem 05:40:28 I think I've never seen anybody that hostile on IRC 05:40:32 at least not from day 1 05:40:49 RaceCondition: no offense but you are also saying arrogant things and being hostile 05:41:06 soupdragon: maybe you weren't here before... 05:41:10 (from day 1 at that) 05:41:12 RaceCondition: also your inability to get this basic stuff about argument lists kinda seems unbelievable to me 05:41:13 RaceCondition: I don't bend over backwards to be nice to people who are being hostile 05:41:23 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 05:41:43 rahul: you don't bend over backwards to be nice to anybody :P 05:41:49 RaceCondition: you're new here, and supposedly trying to learn 05:41:53 drewc: well, ok :) 05:42:17 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 05:42:20 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 05:42:40 RaceCondition: you don't earn too many points by claiming that everything they do is somehow flawed and you know better 05:43:24 and when there is something you accept as being better, you claim that it's useless 05:43:34 just because you haven't used it before 05:43:46 of course you've never used something you haven't had access to before! 05:44:38 RaceCondition: also, do you know the one other language that has a calling convention like python's? 05:44:38 rahul: I don't know where you draw your conclusions from 05:45:00 RaceCondition: no conclusions there... those are things you actually said 05:45:15 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.77.65.198] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:46:07 rahul: maybe you should scroll up to where this started and realize you were being aggressive right from the start without me even trying to prove antyhing 05:46:39 RaceCondition: oh, so I said something to you before you even said anything? 05:46:53 come on, you can't be real... 05:47:14 what language are you using to interpret my sentences? 05:48:21 -!- djinni` [n=djinni`@adsl-71-142-227-255.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:48:38 RaceCondition: rahul may have a certain way of communicating with people, that doesn't mean his points were not valid 05:49:17 22:33 < rahul> what if you do foo(1, a=2)? 05:49:23 RaceCondition: was that me being aggressive? 05:49:35 it's not what you said, it's the way you said it 05:50:08 or was me answering no to your question about call-args-limit aggressive? 05:50:37 note that you still haven't answered that question 05:50:48 this is #lisp, not #love...... we're discussing technical issues here... if an idea is stupid it's allowed to be called so... that does not mean the person who came up with the idea is stupid.... 05:50:49 you just claimed it was stupid 05:50:58 sometimes, the flipside of what xristos says applies -- valid points don't make a difference when attitude gets in the way. 05:51:15 we all know rahul can be abrasive, but RaceCondition is not helping matters either. 05:51:23 he's baiting him! 05:51:24 :D 05:51:26 Adlai: so something is wrong because you don't like the person who said it? 05:51:37 that's not what I said. 05:51:39 drewc: cmon, I wasn't even talking to him the last time he kicked in again... 05:52:07 RaceCondition: you mean when you called me arrogant? 05:52:42 drewc: after you stated that I program in an insular world 05:52:53 00:32 < rahul> RaceCondition: CL's make-instance 05:52:53 00:33 < RaceCondition> rahul: no, not you again 05:53:02 THAT was an attack on you? 05:53:34 RaceCondition: did you not say the same to me first, only in different words? 05:54:04 djinni` [n=djinni`@adsl-71-142-227-255.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:54:20 drewc: no, he said that about the whole lisp community :) 05:54:45 " drewc: maybe you think too much in terms of Lisp?" <--- is what i'm specifically remembering 05:54:46 05:54:48 we're all stuck on using apply because we're too limited to think about other things 05:55:37 RaceCondition: if you learned before opining, you'd know that apply is the core of any languge that has first-class functions 05:55:50 drewc: yes, but I wasn't trying to be in any way arrogant when I said that 05:56:09 RaceCondition: and, why do you assume i was? 05:56:15 where was that w3c emotion spec again 05:56:18 (can't spell assume without ....) 05:56:43 drewc: oh, so me programming in an insular world is not going personal? 05:56:53 RaceCondition: you do, don't you? 05:57:07 surely this discussion is going to resolve itself in a few minutes 05:57:18 (we all do, of course) 05:57:32 RaceCondition: you insist that passing functions and args separately is somehow not relevant to programming? 05:58:06 RaceCondition: it's only relevant in lisp terms? 05:58:32 how do you believe this stuff? 05:59:01 RaceCondition: assuming i only know how to think in lisp... is that personal? I think there is some ego in this room, and i don't feel like playing with it tonight. 05:59:18 -!- ChanServ has set mode -o drewc 05:59:45 drewc: let's just forget it... 05:59:49 05:59:57 -!- xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:00:29 xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 06:00:59 adeht: typical w3c fuckuppedness 06:01:23 you define your content possibilities in a parameter to your enclosing tag? 06:02:23 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:02:26 I've not read that spec yet, so I can't say much about it. 06:02:28 that's not _real_ is it? 06:02:33 adeht made that up right? 06:02:37 drewc: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/emotion/XGR-emotionml-20081120/ 06:03:08 The names of dimension elements which may occur as valid child elements are defined by the set attribute. 06:03:17 that look a little too elaborate to be a joke..... 06:03:29 holy crap, it explicitly says that it's designed by a retard 06:03:52 drewc: it's not a joke (in intention, at least).. there's a big field about emotion markup languages 06:05:54 drewc: it can be useful to have a standardized language for communicating about these things... for example, studying advertising effectiveness 06:06:07 or psychoactive drugs 06:06:16 adeht: millions of works of art, music, drama, dance, and culture have been created in an attempt to communicate emotion...... 06:06:17 ok well this has been entertaining as well as educational. :) good night. 06:06:47 felideon: saturday night's all right for fightin! 06:07:40 this is neat though.. 06:07:43 drewc: indeed. I like to say that a song is an emotion bottled up and served to you 06:07:54 rahul: music sounds how feelings feel. 06:07:58 hehe 06:08:03 -!- soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:08:03 -!- kenanb [n=kenanb@88.238.35.158] has left #lisp 06:08:08 *Adlai* (push *corn*) ; all are free to pop 06:09:20 I think this view is too narrow. irrationalists always stress the signaling/expressive functions of language while downplaying the descriptive/argumentative functions 06:09:30 I really don't get what value these emotion sets have 06:09:47 mostly because they're specified as an attribute! 06:09:50 emotionml [n=kenan@88.238.35.158] has joined #lisp 06:09:59 but it's 08:10 so not such a good time debating philosophy ;) 06:10:29 adeht: fair enough, it's 22:10 here and i'm about to have a drink... it would be the perfect time :) 06:10:32 language is pretty bad at expressoin 06:10:47 -!- emotionml [n=kenan@88.238.35.158] has quit [Client Quit] 06:10:53 it's designed for description as far as I can see 06:11:09 adeht: is there some reading material you can point me at? I am actually interested :) 06:11:14 -!- felideon [n=felideon@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 06:11:19 I meant to saysignaling/communicating 06:11:58 oh 06:12:32 are you talking about communication being directed at the general public vs. directed at a specific consumer 06:12:43 no 06:12:54 adeht: well, i'm of the opinion that language was never meant as ea signaling/expressive medium 06:12:56 "ISSUE: How to specify dates before christ?" This actually really confused me for a moment until I read the context. 06:13:26 -!- lusory [n=bart@bb119-74-197-254.singnet.com.sg] has quit ["leaving"] 06:13:33 drewc: I'm a big Popper fan 06:14:33 he took and developed Bühler's theory about the functions of a language 06:15:00 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:15:28 I don't remember if the explanations I have in mind were in "Conjectures and Refutations" or "Objective Knowledge" 06:17:47 adeht: ok, i'm deep in the wikipedia now... seems right up my alley. 06:18:52 drewc: argumentative use always implies descriptive use always implies communicative use always implies signaling use 06:20:17 of course yeah... that's very true 06:20:21 hrm 06:21:44 drewc: but it doesn't go in the reverse direction.. in art there's a lot of talk about self-expression (signal) and such, downplaying feedback (communication), describing something on a rational level, or even making an argument 06:22:27 the same in programming.. I cringe when people talk about "expressivity" 06:22:41 when they actually mean "descriptivity".. programs describe processes! 06:23:04 but programmers express programs 06:23:07 adeht: ^ 06:23:14 drewc beat me to it :\ 06:23:16 drewc: yes, description always implies expression 06:23:26 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.112.195] has joined #lisp 06:23:40 but expression does not always imply description.. 06:23:51 right, gotcha 06:24:06 that's important.... 06:24:38 so they downplay important parts.. kind of like talking about "readability" instead of "understandability" 06:25:03 -!- konr` [n=user@189.98.83.62] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:25:19 konr` [n=user@189.98.83.62] has joined #lisp 06:26:08 and so many Python people care about their "clean" syntax but don't care about syntactic abstractions 06:26:36 the ability for a language to describe processes is much more important than the ability of a programmer to express programs in that language. 06:27:00 but I'm saying too much w/o making explicit my reasons for saying it.. so 06:27:29 gibranian [n=gibrania@88.238.36.87] has joined #lisp 06:28:53 drewc: expression is the stuff for turing equivalence.. communication and description are the stuff for high-level languages 06:29:42 yeah, makes a lot of sense. 06:30:54 -!- smithzv [n=smithzv@c-24-9-11-34.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 06:33:50 kwinz3_ [n=kwinz@85.125.183.138] has joined #lisp 06:34:15 python people think of their syntax as clean? O.o 06:34:22 -!- slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 06:34:30 slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has joined #lisp 06:35:09 Ralith: have you not heard the claim that Python is executable pseudocode? even Norvig makes it 06:35:26 of course, pseudocode is usually fairly low level, so it fits python ;) 06:36:06 "Pseudocode is a compact and informal high-level description of a computer programming algorithm" from wiki 06:36:15 -!- slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 06:36:16 *Norvig* made that claim? 06:36:19 that doesn't sound right 06:36:20 RaceCondition: yes, in the sense that it's not assembly 06:36:24 slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has joined #lisp 06:37:02 Ralith: http://www.archive.org/details/scipy09_day1_03-Peter_Norvig 06:37:43 I guess he was playing to the audience? 06:38:41 Ralith: he's been "playing" that for a while now.. I have way too much respect for him to assume insincerity 06:39:59 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 06:41:01 -!- gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:46:32 adeht: well, in a world where C-derivatives are dominant, I suppose it's a perfectly reasonable statement. 06:46:43 Pascal is executable pseudocode 06:46:52 BASIC is executable pseudocode 06:46:59 -!- slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 06:47:07 slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has joined #lisp 06:47:12 but only if your pseudocode has the structure of algol 06:47:38 lisp is executable pseudocode for any language structure :) 06:47:47 -!- slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 06:47:54 slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has joined #lisp 06:48:11 cools [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 06:48:37 -!- slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 06:48:46 slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has joined #lisp 06:48:51 -!- slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 06:48:58 slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has joined #lisp 06:49:03 -!- slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 06:49:10 slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has joined #lisp 06:49:15 -!- slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 06:49:23 slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has joined #lisp 06:49:23 litherp2 [n=piratman@ool-182ff1c9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 06:49:28 -!- slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 06:49:36 slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has joined #lisp 06:49:41 -!- slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 06:49:48 slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has joined #lisp 06:50:11 -!- derrida [n=derrida@unaffiliated/deleuze] has quit ["leaving"] 06:50:24 -!- cmeow [i=cmeow@happy.happy.vhost.shellium.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 06:50:25 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Excess Flood] 06:50:42 stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 06:50:54 -!- pemryan [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:50:54 cmeow [i=cmeow@happy.happy.vhost.shellium.org] has joined #lisp 06:52:12 ok, does tonights flood cause this registration request? 06:52:27 hmm, they seem to be still flooding 06:52:51 gibranian: yeah. 06:53:03 konr`` [n=user@189.98.61.161] has joined #lisp 06:53:08 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Excess Flood] 06:53:10 -!- cmeow [i=cmeow@happy.happy.vhost.shellium.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 06:53:24 cmeow [i=cmeow@happy.happy.vhost.shellium.org] has joined #lisp 06:53:36 stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 06:54:45 -!- slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 06:54:48 sykopomp: btw, are you the author of sheeple 06:54:52 slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has joined #lisp 06:55:00 gibranian: partially, yes. 06:55:01 -!- slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 06:55:08 slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has joined #lisp 06:55:16 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.112.195] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:55:17 -!- slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 06:55:25 slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has joined #lisp 06:55:33 -!- slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 06:55:38 *Adlai* is the other part 06:55:42 slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has joined #lisp 06:55:51 s/other part/cancerous tumor/ 06:55:51 -!- slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 06:55:53 >_> 06:55:58 slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has joined #lisp 06:56:00 hey now 06:56:04 -!- fractalis [n=user@cpe-98-27-191-210.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:56:05 Adlai: :D 06:56:07 -!- slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 06:56:12 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:56:14 slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has joined #lisp 06:56:23 -!- slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 06:56:30 slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has joined #lisp 06:56:39 -!- slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 06:56:46 slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has joined #lisp 06:56:52 gibranian: any particular reason? :P 06:56:55 -!- slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 06:57:02 slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has joined #lisp 06:57:12 -!- slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 06:57:18 slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has joined #lisp 06:57:27 -!- slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 06:57:34 slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has joined #lisp 06:57:43 -!- slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 06:57:50 slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has joined #lisp 06:58:11 sykopomp: it seems to be a pretty good work, i watched the videos, but i haven't find time to try it 06:58:21 fractalis [n=user@cpe-98-27-191-210.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:59:04 gibranian: :D 06:59:43 gibranian, there's a mailing list, if you're interested in getting (occasional) updates about it 07:01:10 Adlai: i remember reading an hypertext documentation on sheeple but i can't find it now, there is only the pdf manual 07:01:24 did you change the project homepage? 07:01:35 gibranian, http://sykosomatic.org/sheeple/ 07:01:43 ^ 07:01:50 there's an HTML work-in-progress manual at http://sykosomatic.org/sheeple/documentation/ 07:02:10 wtf it's still using 3.0.2 07:02:16 *sykopomp* updates that. 07:03:07 the other day I was talking about the terrible UI for google groups but couldn't show an example.. here is one: http://i.imgur.com/viMjC.png 07:03:45 manual updated :P 07:05:24 ah ok, thanks guys, i'll dive deeper within the docs before asking any particular questions ;) 07:05:47 feel free to ask anyway :P 07:06:08 the docs aren't quite complete yet >_> 07:07:30 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-123-51.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:08:04 -!- slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 07:08:11 slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has joined #lisp 07:08:27 -!- slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 07:08:34 slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has joined #lisp 07:08:38 -!- slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 07:08:45 slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has joined #lisp 07:08:49 -!- slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 07:08:58 slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has joined #lisp 07:09:04 -!- slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 07:09:10 slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has joined #lisp 07:09:12 -!- slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 07:09:19 slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has joined #lisp 07:09:21 -!- slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 07:09:28 slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has joined #lisp 07:09:31 -!- slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 07:09:38 slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has joined #lisp 07:09:41 -!- slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 07:09:48 slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has joined #lisp 07:09:51 -!- slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 07:09:58 slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has joined #lisp 07:10:01 -!- slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 07:10:08 slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has joined #lisp 07:10:11 -!- slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 07:10:18 slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has joined #lisp 07:10:20 Xach, slyrus, maybe it's time for +r 07:10:21 -!- slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 07:10:24 -!- konr` [n=user@189.98.83.62] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:10:28 slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has joined #lisp 07:10:31 -!- slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 07:10:31 -!- xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:10:38 slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has joined #lisp 07:10:41 -!- slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 07:10:45 what's he doing? 07:10:46 xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 07:10:48 slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has joined #lisp 07:10:51 -!- slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 07:10:59 slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has joined #lisp 07:11:02 -!- slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 07:11:08 I'm guessing it's part of #gnaa's clonebot attack 07:11:09 slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has joined #lisp 07:11:11 -!- slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 07:11:18 slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has joined #lisp 07:11:21 -!- slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 07:11:25 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-123-51.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 07:11:29 slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has joined #lisp 07:11:30 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Zhivago 07:11:32 -!- slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 07:11:33 -!- Zhivago has set mode +i 07:11:47 damn channel ban list 07:11:53 hm 07:11:54 l 07:12:15 thanks Zhivago 07:12:30 ah good idea Zhivago, thank you. 07:13:09 -!- Zhivago has set mode -b %Bacta!*@* 07:13:26 -!- Zhivago has set mode +b slather!*@* 07:13:31 -!- Zhivago has set mode -i 07:14:27 is deepfire a flooder or a lisper? 07:14:44 depends on the weather. 07:14:56 but he actually contributes to discussion here at times :) 07:15:06 bitflip [n=user@ip98-184-186-177.tu.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:15:24 you mean _deepfire ? He's the guy behind https://launchpad.net/desire 07:15:46 he sent a private message saying he is making a mental map of lispers and if i am offended to his previous message, but i didn't get any previous message :) 07:16:04 Let me know if you come up with a more appropriate ban. 07:21:56 drewc: http://www.ditext.com/popper/lbp.html .. ('spose my use of `signal' was misplaced, he uses it for the communicative function) 07:25:20 isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-226-227.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:30:50 pemryan [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has joined #lisp 07:31:00 -!- Dra`vi [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:38:35 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.112.195] has joined #lisp 07:38:37 adeht: "We do not argue with a thermometer." 07:45:05 -!- skeptical_p [n=rondev@109.67.7.24] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:47:22 ;) 07:48:59 -!- madsy [n=madsy@fu/coder/madsy] has quit ["leaving"] 07:49:40 pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has joined #lisp 07:49:46 -!- cools [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["sleep"] 07:50:18 -!- pemryan [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:52:28 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit ["work"] 07:54:29 mjsor [n=mjsor@75-93-57-35.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 07:56:19 mathrick [n=mathrick@eiy66.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 07:58:19 sadiquea [n=sadiquea@122.172.47.65] has joined #lisp 08:05:07 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 08:10:21 CBro2007 [n=manukaul@c-ac98e253.026-209-73746f13.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 08:11:09 was wondering if anyone here uses an editor other than emacs and uses Macosx? 08:11:28 or is emacs the way to go 08:11:51 emacs is the way to go 08:13:20 k 08:13:34 I am just wondering about doing a course in Functional Programming 08:13:41 and they seem to be using ML 08:14:03 I had done some SCHEME ages ago ... so wondering if Common Lisp would be a good language to learn and use 08:14:28 that depends on what you want to achieve 08:14:39 I mean how does Common Lisp compare to languages like Haskell, ML etc? 08:14:40 common lisp is not particularly focused on functional programming 08:14:48 ah ok 08:14:49 Seeing SCHEME in all caps and Lisp with regular capitalization is a novel experience for me. 08:14:51 I didn't know that 08:15:03 CBro2007: that does not mean that you can not program in a functional style 08:15:12 common lisp is multiparadigm 08:15:38 xristos: what I meant was that do the other languages like ML and Haskell then force you to only using the functional paradigm? 08:15:53 pretty much 08:16:16 So you would say that common lisp is complete in many ways? 08:16:28 like its a complete programming language and you can code anything in it 08:16:31 i would say common lisp is more practical 08:16:32 yes 08:16:34 or does it have limitations? 08:16:40 k 08:17:00 and learning common lisp... would that help me understand languages like ML too? 08:17:19 I mean the functional aspects of it 08:17:39 just learn haskell 08:18:11 CBro2007: if you want to understand ML, learn ML 08:18:36 well here is the thing... 08:18:47 the type system is very different 08:19:08 there is a prof with whom I want to do some research work who has written an OO database in Common Lisp 08:19:14 and he loves Common Lisp :) 08:19:33 and the closest I get to that language is scheme I would say 08:19:59 so he keeps getting students who write Java extensions to his code but don't help him alter it in a major way 08:20:21 well if you want to do that, learn common lisp 08:20:51 CBro2007: i think being multiparadigm is not about completeness. 08:20:53 I always was under the impression that common lisp is a functional style language 08:21:09 you can program in a functional style 08:21:18 so the functional programming course uses ML though 08:21:24 but you can also do imperative or OO 08:21:34 Yeah I heard 08:21:42 I got the book called "Practical common Lisp" 08:21:50 because I think someone here on the channel recommended it 08:21:59 will go through that in my break and learn from there 08:22:07 thats a good resource to start with yeah? 08:22:09 that is a good way to proceed 08:23:08 ok just that I am not familiar with Emacs either 08:23:25 so I figure as long as there is some editor that can do bracket matching that would be a great help 08:23:30 madsy [n=madsy@ti0207a340-0321.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 08:23:32 since you are on osx, have a look at http://trac.clozure.com/ccl 08:23:57 it has a cocoa ide that you can use to get up to speed quickly and try the examples in the book 08:24:15 you don't need to dive into emacs immediatelly if you are not already familiar with it 08:24:28 ok 08:24:36 there are apparently some neat things about using Emacs though 08:24:48 like being able to execute pieces of code right from the editor? 08:25:04 can I do that in Clozure too? 08:25:06 yes 08:25:27 cool 08:25:28 CBro2007: emacs is not really hard to learn, and believe me, you will eventually switch to emacs if you use cl 08:25:33 there are many more neat things about emacs that you can learn later on 08:25:44 k 08:25:55 its just the matter of spending time with it 08:26:40 just wondering how easy or difficult it is to write a DBMS using Lisp? 08:26:59 are there lisp frameworks available out there to do such things? 08:27:12 or something similar to Perl's CPAN? 08:27:19 for reusable modules etc 08:27:20 have a look at cliki.net and cl-user.net 08:27:36 k 08:27:45 if you are looking for something specific, ppl here can point you to frequently used libraries 08:28:03 xristos: you think writing a DBMS is hard in C lisp? 08:28:06 Common Lisp 08:28:28 i have no idea 08:28:56 k 08:31:32 if DBMS falls within your domain, then programming language won't be that important 08:32:18 if it doesn't, common lisp is an excellent choice due to it's interactive nature and support for rapid exploratory programming 08:32:53 CBro2007: some of the libraries you will find on cliki will probably be unmaintened, so it is really a good idea to look at the time of last updates and ask here about the alternatives you think are relevant 08:33:25 I was reading somewhere online that "Common Lisp is powerful but ugly, Scheme is small and clean" 08:33:36 ok thanks gibranian 08:34:02 pbusser [n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 08:34:17 xristos: yeah some of the stuff we are looking involves a lot of exploratory type problems and AI programming 08:34:23 CBro2007: that is like asking someone if he prefers blondes to brunettes, language beauty is subjective 08:34:28 so I thought Common Lisp might be a good one to learn 08:34:35 true 08:34:39 I mean I like Perl :) 08:34:53 so then every other language in comparison looks CLEAN 08:35:31 well then you'll be pleasantly surprised at how CLEAN lisp is 08:35:38 Is Ansi common lisp a good book? 08:35:56 it is ok, written in a more functional style 08:36:04 i suggest you read PCL first though 08:36:58 -!- mjsor [n=mjsor@75-93-57-35.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [] 08:37:16 ok 08:37:36 Is lisp used in companies? 08:37:51 I mean do you know of any major implementations solely done in lisp? 08:38:11 or is it mostly used in purely academic circles 08:38:53 common lisp is a practical language developed for real world applications and industry 08:39:04 scheme has the academic focus 08:39:22 autodesk used a variant of it in thier CAD apps; i think orbitz used it as the backend; naughty dog used it in some games; mario team used it on the n64 in the past or so...i'm sure some people use lisp here in hteir jobs as well 08:39:27 now excuse me i have to go to sleep :p 08:39:32 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 08:39:52 ok thanks 08:40:02 thanks for all the help 08:40:14 hopefully I can start writing some lisp code soon 08:41:45 ace4016: orbitz uses QPX for their backend, which is a product of ITA software. 08:42:02 CBro2007: are you asking all lisp dialects in general or common lisp in particular? 08:42:09 Kolyan [n=nartamon@95-25-18-12.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 08:42:15 ace4016: ITA also has a reservation system that also contains a lot of CL code 08:42:34 gibranian: common lisp 08:42:48 ah 08:43:35 -!- retroj [n=retroj@pdpc/supporter/active/retroj] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:46:41 xristos: where's that CCL Cocoa IDE you mentioned? 08:46:53 CBro2007: if what you are asking is "not academic" reddit is a good example (but thay switched to python for some unrelated reasons recently) 08:47:38 gibranian: I hear Python is somewhat similar to Lisp in many ways? 08:49:11 CBro2007: it is true, it is not truely a lisp since it has a syntax :) but it got many useful ideas from lisp. 08:49:22 mjsor [n=mjsor@75-93-57-35.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 08:50:08 gibranian: which ideas, for example? 08:51:50 CBro2007: i think norvig can answer this question better than me: http://norvig.com/python-lisp.html 08:52:40 oops, wrong person. 08:53:01 i should've sent it to RaceCondition 08:53:06 sorry 08:57:37 -!- adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-250-90.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 08:59:21 RaceCondition: "Efficiency: Lisp, About 1 to 2 times slower than C++. Python, About 2 to 100 times slower than C++" ok, i don't know if these statements are still true since i couldn't find the date this essay is written, but date won't matter for most of the essay, i can't really tell more, i didn't use python before. 09:02:24 gibranian: yeah, I'm aware of the performance difference 09:02:58 the fact that Lisp is comparable to C++ is amazing actually 09:04:12 It's more a "can be" rather than "is" relationship 09:06:05 nowadays gcc can do some amazing things and the best Lisp compilers (i.e. cmucl/SBCL) are not really keeping up 09:06:32 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@eiy66.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:08:50 ah, I've read that Norvig's article, gibranian 09:09:13 -!- konr`` [n=user@189.98.61.161] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:09:20 mathrick [n=mathrick@109.243.181.16] has joined #lisp 09:09:28 konr`` [n=user@189.98.61.161] has joined #lisp 09:10:34 RaceCondition: i remember test results showing that for some rare cases, cl does much slower than C++ and some rare cases that cl is faster, but usually can be (i think this can be points the dependency to the coder and the implementation) very close in speed but i don't really know if these kind of comparison are really useful in practice. since the conclusion is "be a better coder, and keep being if you already are" 09:11:22 yeah, but still, even very good Python code can never cope with C++ code :) in almost all cases, I think 09:11:34 -!- mjsor [n=mjsor@75-93-57-35.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [] 09:13:12 i personally choose trying to write good cl code, trying to learn c++ was a unpleasant teenage experience for me :) 09:13:58 I think C++ was the first language I ever got involved with, after C that is 09:14:15 not that I ever learn to program in it... 09:14:20 learned* 09:15:27 Dra`vi [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 09:17:32 me, too. and my second unpleasant teenage programmer experience was learning that java and javascript are unrelated :p 09:22:01 What happens when you call (THREAD-YIELD) while holding a lock? 09:24:52 Ah ok I somehow had the idea that a thread-yield is similar to a non-local exit, but actually that's nonsense 09:25:05 freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 09:26:08 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 09:26:31 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 09:31:55 -!- RaceCondition [n=erik@82.131.74.61.cable.starman.ee] has quit [] 09:39:25 dr_maligno [n=dr_malig@95.214.28.127] has joined #lisp 09:43:52 -!- konr`` [n=user@189.98.61.161] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:43:52 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 09:44:03 konr`` [n=user@189.98.61.161] has joined #lisp 09:45:06 -!- GrayGnome [n=MuneNoKa@user-11fa52h.dsl.mindspring.com] has quit [Client Quit] 09:49:27 -!- sadiquea [n=sadiquea@122.172.47.65] has quit [Client Quit] 09:55:02 plutonas` [n=plutonas@port-92-195-18-167.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 09:57:58 I have a philosophical question, why did XML become so popular when s-exp are so much cleaner and easier to work with? 09:58:25 RaceCondition [n=erik@82.131.74.61.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 09:59:20 Your question is incorrect. 09:59:52 fractalis: because parens scare people and brackets don't. 10:00:00 No. 10:00:06 Zhivago: No. 10:00:08 For many purposes xml is a better choice. 10:00:27 Until you can accept that you will not be able to talk about it in any vaguely intelligent fashion. 10:00:46 in short, if you don't agree with Zhivago, you are wrong about everything. 10:00:54 You'll just be recycling regurgitated propaganda. 10:01:08 see above. 10:01:10 Much like adamant is now -- not one relevant thought. 10:01:25 So, think about why you think s-exps are superior rather than assuming that they are. 10:01:41 then come to my conclusion or you are wrong. 10:01:48 on the Internet. 10:02:03 Please be quiet until you have something intelligent to say. 10:02:25 Zhivago: let's both take your advice. 10:02:29 -!- pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:02:36 I have been. :) 10:06:28 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 10:06:37 Zhivago: i really think s-exps are better because tag style requires writing everything twice :) but it is just the impression i got from the html 10 years ago, i didn't use xml much. 10:06:59 Well, it depends on what you're doing. 10:07:30 If you are marking up documents, then tracking parentheses can be difficult. Tags are clearer to see. 10:07:48 But I think that's one of the least interesting arguments to make here. 10:07:48 -!- fractali` [n=user@cpe-98-27-191-210.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:08:32 Although if you want to go down that path, you can talk about the cost of needing to quote all non-tag content in s-exps. 10:09:09 Zhivago: In what ways is XML a better choice for representing data? 10:09:42 Zhivago: but usually indentation takes care of the tracking part for both, it would be a pain to track down a tagged style if it is not properly indented. 10:09:53 Well, it's a lot better for marking up text due to the burden of quoting being shifted to the mark-up rather than the text. 10:10:17 okay 10:10:19 but how about 10:10:25 everything that is NOT text markup? 10:10:30 Text still needs to be quoted depending on the context of the data within a mark-up document. 10:10:31 Another important difference to me is that xml has a provision for separating attributes and content. 10:10:38 which is the use case most programmers care about. 10:10:40 every time people use XML for data storage or configuration... 10:11:03 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-195-48-129.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:11:41 Another important difference is that in xml you know what ... means. 10:11:55 Whereas the meaning of (tag ...) is completely context dependent. 10:13:00 Well, aside from the aesthetics of mark-up versus parens, I was thinking more along the lines of actual parsing. Wouldn't you say that parsing an sexp is a bit easier than an xml document? 10:13:01 Zhivago: i'm sorry, i couldn't get what you mean by the last statement. 10:13:54 fractalis: It's actually quite complicated to parse s-exps, if you're talking about what CL uses. 10:14:01 gib: What does (a b c) mean in CL? 10:14:42 fractalis: But, yeah, it's probably simpler than doing xml right. 10:14:50 Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 10:14:58 Zhivago: don't get me wrong, i'm not in a position to argue on the subject, i simply literally ask questions right now. 10:15:04 fractalis: On the other hand, once you have libraries to do it ... why do you care? 10:15:16 gib: I am trying to answer your question. 10:15:45 gib: Is that a function call? Is it a macro invocation? Is it a literal list? 10:16:12 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 10:17:22 Zephyrus [n=emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 10:17:25 Zhivago: but i think (a b c) in XML would probably mean something else from (a b c) in CL, i didn't think it as the means of evaluation, but in means of style while saying s-exp style would be better. 10:17:37 So it seems that (on Linux) SBCL implements its condition variables directly on top of futexes; what are the advantages over reusing what pthreads provides? I guess you get a higher degree of introspectiveness and customizability (e.g. I see that DEADLINEs are heeded in condition-wait which may not be possible if the whole business was passed to C code.) 10:17:56 gib: Try rephrasing that without using a word like 'better'. 10:18:26 jtza8 [n=jtza8@iburst-41-213-56-227.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:18:56 Zhivago: ok, we can replace better with "less duplicated", as i stated before 10:19:25 dmiles [n=dmiles@c-67-165-120-12.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:19:38 Zhivago: True, once the libraries are there it isn't as much of an issue - but it seems even using a library to parse xml is a difficult endeavour, at least the ones I've used. But, we could even extend the argument to why something like JSON or YAML is easier to deal with than XML. 10:19:46 gib: Ok, s-exps provide less redundancy in the case where you have few escapes needed. 10:20:12 -!- balooga [n=00u4440@adsl-99-162-211-151.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 10:21:45 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:21:53 Sumpen [n=Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 10:22:15 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-67-165-120-12.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:22:35 gif: The "man" looked at the "dog". -- (... "The " (em "\"man\"") "looked at the " (i "\"dog\"") ".") 10:22:57 gib: I'm not sure why anyone would think the second form is preferable to the first here. 10:23:26 jtza8_ [n=jtza8@iburst-41-213-20-155.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:25:01 -!- Zephyrus [n=emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Client Quit] 10:25:33 Zephyrus [n=emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 10:26:59 tfb [n=tfb@restormel.cley.com] has joined #lisp 10:28:32 Zephyrus: I'm not sure why anyone would use sexps like that, either. 10:28:44 er 10:28:46 Zhivago: ^ 10:29:00 -!- tfb is now known as tfb|away 10:29:01 -!- tfb|away is now known as tfb 10:29:04 People who think that s-exps are superior to xml should. :) 10:29:09 ragflord [n=Owner@71.92.98.86] has joined #lisp 10:29:09 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@202.137.157.253] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:29:15 I think they both have different strengths. 10:29:21 or you could just use sxml. 10:29:28 And you can see why format doesn't use s-exps. 10:29:37 What do people recommend for global lexical variables? I've come across http://www.tfeb.org/programs/lisp/glex.lisp, and I've seen that CCL, SBCL, and CLISP each have their own native "static" variables. Any other options I should consider? 10:30:00 what "static" variables? 10:30:20 Zhivago: My complaint against XMLand I imagine that I'm not aloneis not against its use in markup, but its use for things like config files. 10:30:24 Zhivago: would we really need the escaped double quotes in an xml file, can't we just write it as (.. The (em "man") looked at the (i "dog") .) 10:30:35 tcr, defglobal on SBCL, defstatic on CCL 10:30:47 gibranian: you would if you were using straight CL expressions 10:30:59 I also think that, as you suggest, sexps could be adapted to be a decent markup language 10:31:05 Ralith: that's most people's complaint about it, and it's usually inappropriate, especially when you want to hand edit stuff. 10:31:12 Adamant: indeed. 10:31:17 gib: If anything, you would have to do (em (quote "man")) looked at the (i (quote "dog")), since we want the words "man" and "dog" to be quoted. 10:31:20 which is why I don't understand why Zhivago is going on about how markup is reasonable. 10:31:34 Adamant: I suggest that you write out my example in sxml. :) 10:32:00 gibranian: Because those quotes are part of the text. 10:32:10 Adlai: defglobal, at least, is something else 10:32:13 sxml seems to be the mutated off-spring of sexp and xml 10:32:19 Zhivago: it should be obvious that gibranian is suggesting that the outermost quotes be implicit. 10:32:26 tcr, I've looked at what it does. 10:32:42 fractalis: nope, this way occurs a problem in usage of quote and real double quotes 10:32:43 I'm just wondering about the various alternatives to defvar/defparameter 10:32:47 brandelune [n=suzume@pl571.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:33:07 So, how would you write symbols? 10:33:27 fractalis: or maybe not :) 10:33:55 -!- wasabi___ [n=wasabi@nttkyo377073.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:33:55 tcr, CCL static variables are http://ccl.clozure.com/manual/chapter4.6.html 10:33:58 "looked at the" (i animal-name), for example. 10:34:07 Adlai: I'm confused, are you looking for global lexicals, or global misc. bindings? 10:34:16 Phoodus [i=foo@174-17-22-62.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 10:34:17 You have to pay the piper in one direction or the other. 10:34:24 Zhivago: if we're discussing markup, then there is no such thing. 10:34:42 tcr, I'm looking at the alternatives to global dynamic bindings; the description of CCL's defstatic is closest to what I want. 10:34:59 Ralith: Well, if you want to give up symbols in order to use symbolic-expressions ... 10:35:16 Zhivago: i think you brought the whole power of cl to xml while we just try to change thy syntax ;) 10:35:28 Adlai: apropos global lexicals there is Ron Garret's stuff, which may be better than mine 10:35:29 Zhivago: if you're transitioning from XML, then you're not giving up anything but verbosity. 10:35:37 gib: I'm just asking questions. 10:35:37 although I have not really looked iat it 10:35:44 tfb: No it's not better 10:36:00 I think Ron Garret's thing is a whole new framework intended to replace packages 10:36:06 No, not that 10:36:10 he has that too 10:36:11 waut 10:36:13 wait 10:36:15 Use Rob Warnock's deflex that's semantically sound 10:36:22 Zhivago: posing it as a question doesn't make it any more relevant :P 10:36:29 This: http://rondam.blogspot.com/2009/08/global-variables-done-right.html 10:36:32 I think 10:36:37 Zhivago: ehehe, that was a nice one :) but you know what i mean 10:36:45 Well, if you want symbolic expressions without symbols, then knock yourselves out. 10:37:01 Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has joined #lisp 10:37:34 -!- pbusser [n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:37:37 Adlai: DEFGLOBAL, and DEFSTATIC seem to be the same thing 10:37:38 Adlai: anyway, I'd be interested in hearing what you end up using (esp if it's my stuff of course, and if you make any changes/improvements) 10:37:39 in this case, what we "want" is something more practical than XML 10:37:48 Dodek [i=dodek@wikipedia/Dodek] has joined #lisp 10:38:00 Of course, you might want to consider "the (old) man looked at the (new) dog." 10:38:16 I guess you could switch ()'s for <>'s or something less common in text ... 10:38:46 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 10:38:48 unless you're looking at text with a bunch of <>'s in it 10:38:54 Zhivago: i didn't really question if we can directly use symbolic expressions in xml from the beginning, i just think a syntax derived from s-exp style may fit to xml. 10:39:06 tcr, do you have a link to Rob Warnock's deflex? Should I search c.l.l? 10:39:18 in which case you're back to the same problem as your examples. 10:39:31 Adlai: Yeah c.l.l; make sure it's a recent posting, his old definition had a bug 10:39:33 gib: Then the question I would ask is -- how do you clearly differentiate between attribute and content? 10:40:22 Adlai: But to me it sounds like you should (defmacro define-global-variable ... #+sbcl defglobal #+ccl defstatic #-(or sbcl ccl) defparameter) 10:40:29 -!- weirdo_ [i=w@rodney.ltd.pl] has left #lisp 10:40:36 Zhivago: the first element in the form being attribute and others being content? 10:40:38 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-123-51.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 10:40:53 weirdo [i=w@rodney.ltd.pl] has joined #lisp 10:41:01 -!- jtza8 [n=jtza8@iburst-41-213-56-227.iburst.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:41:09 gibranian: I think Zhivago means stuff like content 10:41:10 tcr, I'm planning on using defstatic on CCL, setq on clisp, probably defglobal on SBCL, but I'm still looking for a default for other lisps. 10:41:13 gibrian: Ok, so now you need (em () "man")? 10:41:24 Ralith: hmm, sorry. 10:41:35 leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 10:41:39 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 10:41:54 Zhivago: "if the first element is not a list, then it is assumed to be content" 10:42:01 was that really so hard to conceive :P 10:42:19 Zhivago: an alternative has been to say either (em "man") or ((em :att val) "man") 10:42:31 Sure, there are ways to do it. 10:42:33 even if you *did* use that unwieldly syntax, it would *still* be less typing than XML. 10:42:35 This requires less typing 10:42:53 which was my consideration when I did it 10:43:01 compare (em () "man") with "man" 10:43:09 varjag [n=eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 10:43:12 By this time you've pretty much re-invented xml with lousy quoting. 10:43:17 Ralith: yes, I wrote documents in that syntax (by typing them I mean) 10:43:23 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-60.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 10:43:26 No, you've let out the quotes. 10:43:26 Zhivago: you must not know much about XML :P 10:43:31 gicen [n=gicen@adsl-ull-45-190.47-151.net24.it] has joined #lisp 10:43:35 You mean (em () "\"man\"") :) 10:43:38 no 10:43:39 I did not. 10:43:45 Adlai: You cover sbcl, and ccl; I don't think you actively use any other implementation; just default to defparameter. (What do you want to use this for anyway?) 10:43:46 because we're not writing CL functions here. 10:43:54 Yeah, you're not writing s-exps. 10:44:03 Are you? :) 10:44:13 they're good enough for me 10:44:22 lighten up on the straw man a bit. 10:44:27 As you wish, but I think we've demonstrated the basic point here. 10:44:30 -!- gicen [n=gicen@adsl-ull-45-190.47-151.net24.it] has left #lisp 10:44:48 My conclusion was that they are better than XML (based on a fairly large document), but there are syntaxes which are better than them 10:44:51 that it's trivial to do decent markup in something derived from sexprs? 10:44:52 certainly. 10:45:21 tcr, it's for the bindings created in defproto; they should be global variable bindings, but not have the shadowing effect that dynamic variables have with threads in lisps nowadays 10:45:49 would it be better to call them something else, g-exps maybe?(gibrarian expression :) ) that seems to be the real conflict 10:46:05 Which is that s-exps aren't clearly superior for cases where xml is appropriate. 10:46:12 Zhivago: nobody ever said that. 10:46:15 again with the straw man. 10:46:31 Adlai: What values do the bindings hold? 10:46:32 Ralith: I wish you the best of luck with your reading disorder. 10:46:37 in fact, that statement is a truism. 10:46:46 i typed my own nickname wrong :) 10:46:59 Adlai: If you have an explicit reference operator, you can also use defconstant 10:47:13 tcr, prototype objects 10:47:19 if you're more interested in being "right" than meaningful discussion, though, I guess it's to be expected 10:47:19 what do you mean by explicit reference operator? :\ 10:47:28 gib: Well, I won't argue that you couldn't find something better than xml for most of the cases that it is used in. 10:47:42 ralith: The problem is that you appear to have missed the original question. 10:47:42 Really, mark-up isn't representing data - its representing how to display data. What I was originally trying to get at, is doing something like (man (age 50) (name "The Man")) or even (man :age 50 :name "The Man") is a letter better than saying 50 The Man 10:47:55 Zhivago: non-rhetorical question: where is XML appropriate? 10:48:05 s/display/interpret/ 10:48:20 Adlai: When you do not want to use (setf (symbol-value 'binding) ...), but have (setf (proto-binding 'binding) ...) 10:48:21 My answer: where it is already used so you need to be compatible / there is already infrastructure for it 10:48:30 fractalis: hell, you'd've got off easy of your XML data was formatted that simply. 10:48:32 tfb: Well, I think it's appropriate where you're marking up text with information on how to interpret it. 10:48:35 (which I am fine with) 10:48:39 the other problem is that you interpreted the original question as a global statement and not a general bitch about XML. 10:48:41 Adlai: (And of course do not want (setf binding ...) to work either 10:49:00 Adamant: You've forgotten to be quiet when you have nothing intelligent to say. 10:49:09 Ralith: I know, wouldn't that be grand? 10:49:13 Zhivago: I don't agree with that *other than that it is already widely used there* because I think there are just less painful and richer markup languages 10:49:18 fractalis: it'd almost be usable! 10:49:22 Zhivago: get over yourself. 10:49:24 almost. 10:49:27 but the "other than that is is already widely used" is a big deal 10:49:36 Adamant: not gunna happen :P 10:49:39 so, actually, I do agree 10:49:40 anyway guys, this discussion is enlightening for me, but i should go now, thanks for the brain storm :) 10:49:41 :-) 10:49:51 -!- isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-226-227.sd.sd.cox.net] has left #lisp 10:49:52 gib: Have a good night / morning 10:49:54 tfb: Well, the context was "compared with s-exp". I am not going to argue that xml is the best possible markup mechanism. 10:50:06 gib: Good luck. 10:50:22 Adlai: I'll go now, have to get something done. 10:50:25 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 10:50:55 bleh, no minion. no memos. 10:51:07 Zhivago: well, I think I probably disagree with that as well, based on having written a document in a sexp-based syntax because it was easier than XML, but one could differ there 10:51:08 prxq [n=mommer@f051178118.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:51:32 I need the latest cffi from darcs. But 'darcs get http://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/darcs/cffi' gives me 'HTTP error (404?)'. Ideas? 10:51:40 c|mell [n=cmell@202.137.157.253] has joined #lisp 10:52:15 -!- gibranian [n=gibrania@88.238.36.87] has left #lisp 10:52:40 tfb, any specific reasons why glex-value uses the symbol-plist? 10:53:32 unicode [n=user@95.214.70.162] has joined #lisp 10:53:33 *Adlai* is never sure when it's appropriate to use that vestigial limb 10:53:39 *tfb* has only the most vague memory of that code 10:54:26 ok. It's very short code, if you feel like glancing at it. 10:54:46 Adlai: Based on comments in there I'm guessing it used to use a hashtable but for some reason I changed it 10:55:19 the source code repository currently only exists on backups (the machine died a few months ago) so I can't check just now 10:55:25 sorry... 10:55:36 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 10:55:48 it's ok, thank you for your help :) 10:56:31 Adlai: such as it was ... 10:56:54 *Adlai* is very clueless about this issue, so all advice is helpful 10:57:12 I need to revive all that stuff now I actually use CL again after all this time... 10:57:39 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:57:41 good to hear that! what has made you pick it up again? 10:58:57 Adlai: having time I think (for ages I was working away from home etc and there was just too much else going on) 11:01:50 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.89.195] has left #lisp 11:01:58 pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has joined #lisp 11:02:18 -!- tfb is now known as tfb|away 11:02:25 -!- tfb|away is now known as tfb 11:03:45 leo2007: your darcs may be too old 11:06:04 -!- tfb is now known as tfb|away 11:07:25 -!- tfb|away [n=tfb@restormel.cley.com] has quit ["sleeping"] 11:09:45 fe[nl]ix: that seems so. I am using wget to mirror the dir but it takes a long time. 11:09:52 -!- dr_maligno [n=dr_malig@95.214.28.127] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:10:14 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 11:13:16 -!- RaceCondition [n=erik@82.131.74.61.cable.starman.ee] has quit [] 11:13:31 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:15:06 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 11:16:00 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:19:06 -!- jtza8_ [n=jtza8@iburst-41-213-20-155.iburst.co.za] has left #lisp 11:19:34 jtza8 [n=jtza8@iburst-41-213-20-155.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:28:25 pavelludiq [n=quassel@83.222.166.125] has joined #lisp 11:29:25 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@202.137.157.253] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:30:44 c|mell [n=cmell@202.137.157.253] has joined #lisp 11:31:08 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 11:32:46 -!- Zephyrus [n=emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Client Quit] 11:37:11 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:39:03 soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has joined #lisp 11:45:58 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:48:02 Zephyrus [n=emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 11:48:33 -!- unicode [n=user@95.214.70.162] has quit [Client Quit] 11:51:43 -!- fractalis [n=user@cpe-98-27-191-210.neo.res.rr.com] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 11:51:54 ,lisppaste 11:52:02 lisppaste? 11:52:08 lisppaste: url 11:52:12 yeah 11:52:28 timor [n=timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 11:52:50 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:54:24 i got it. 11:56:17 _mathrick [n=mathrick@eiy66.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 11:56:32 kenjin2201 [n=kenjin@220.120.43.80] has joined #lisp 11:56:59 -!- Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp121-45-54-127.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:01:31 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@109.243.181.16] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:01:56 grouzen_ [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 12:01:56 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:03:07 tarleb [n=tarleb@g224096179.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 12:07:50 _icecube_ [n=icecube@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 12:08:02 TJohn [i=as@114-45-234-250.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 12:08:44 -!- ajklfjadsf [i=ddd@119.198.74.70] has quit [Client Quit] 12:09:10 varjagg [n=eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 12:10:33 -!- _icecube_ [n=icecube@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Client Quit] 12:11:19 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 12:16:28 yvdriess [n=Beef@94-224-246-138.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 12:18:20 -!- drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:24:08 pr [n=pr@p579CA89D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:24:17 -!- varjag [n=eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:25:10 cobol000 [n=r4y@p5496E98B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:25:24 erjag [n=eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 12:26:14 -!- cobol000_ [n=r4y@p5496D17F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:26:50 -!- varjagg [n=eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:33:28 addled [n=adl@77.208.196.122] has joined #lisp 12:34:38 -!- erjag [n=eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Client Quit] 12:35:36 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:37:16 -!- litherp2 [n=piratman@ool-182ff1c9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:43:17 -!- Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:43:20 wentbackward [n=wentback@pcd653118.netvigator.com] has joined #lisp 12:44:15 Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has joined #lisp 12:45:36 snearch [n=olaf@g225049242.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 12:45:57 -!- CBro2007 [n=manukaul@c-ac98e253.026-209-73746f13.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [] 12:46:59 Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 12:51:11 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 12:53:34 What's the excitement this A.M.? 12:54:02 A.M.? 12:54:05 -!- kwinz3_ [n=kwinz@85.125.183.138] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:55:01 That doesn't sound exciting. 12:55:26 oh 12:55:28 almost 5am; time for sleep. 12:55:49 *Adlai* saw an "about" before "this" for some reason and was very confused 12:56:25 it's not fair to through acronyms at me right after a large late lunch on an unusually hot afternoon 12:56:31 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-159-209-174.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 12:56:52 *Xach* throughs a large fish at Adlai 12:57:49 it's 15am and i haven't wrote a line of lisp code 12:57:56 kwinz3_ [i=kwinz@213142123106.public.telering.at] has joined #lisp 12:58:16 not surprised with flying fish around 12:58:25 quite a distraction, heh 12:58:42 you are on a boat too? 12:59:21 hehe, ya, sure wasn't that the world domination plan 12:59:26 Probably sailing the seas of Uranus. 12:59:32 Given that it's 15am. 12:59:40 or did it change to planes 12:59:55 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229076065.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 13:00:58 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-60.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 13:00:59 argh, s/ough/ow/ 13:00:59 minion, memo for minion: thwap Adlai whenever you get back in here. 13:00:59 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:01:17 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 13:03:26 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-60.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 13:04:28 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:06:58 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@174-17-22-62.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [] 13:08:31 -!- addled [n=adl@77.208.196.122] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:12:33 -!- _mathrick [n=mathrick@eiy66.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:14:32 -!- Zephyrus [n=emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:15:28 Zephyrus [n=emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 13:18:43 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-17-208.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:25:20 -!- tarleb [n=tarleb@g224096179.adsl.alicedsl.de] has left #lisp 13:31:24 -!- legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-1-175.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:37:17 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 13:43:24 lichtblau [n=user@port-92-195-41-30.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 13:49:06 -!- dys` is now known as dys 13:49:51 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 13:50:25 -!- grouzen_ [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:52:03 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-252-1-53-213.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:52:10 -!- wentbackward [n=wentback@pcd653118.netvigator.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:52:24 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 13:54:21 Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 13:58:20 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441045.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 14:00:49 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 14:06:41 -!- yvdriess [n=Beef@94-224-246-138.access.telenet.be] has quit [Client Quit] 14:07:58 grouzen_ [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 14:09:13 -!- potatishandlarn [n=potatish@c-4f6629d4-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Client Quit] 14:11:58 -!- kwinz3_ [i=kwinz@213142123106.public.telering.at] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:17:47 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:23:13 -!- swilde [n=wilde@aktaia.intevation.org] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 14:26:03 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 14:30:38 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@85.125.183.138] has joined #lisp 14:33:12 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:33:36 gabnet [n=gabnet@226.23.67-86.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 14:36:20 -!- seangrove [n=user@c-67-188-112-83.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:38:27 mathrick [n=mathrick@188.33.176.254] has joined #lisp 14:49:55 RaceCondition [n=erik@82.131.74.61.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 14:50:38 ikki [n=ikki@189.139.217.33] has joined #lisp 14:51:36 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:56:41 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:59:10 b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 15:02:18 -!- Guest955` [n=user@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has left #lisp 15:02:33 tsuru [n=user@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:09:03 blandest [n=blandest@79.112.118.97] has joined #lisp 15:09:32 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 15:09:54 beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-51-118.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:09:58 Good afternoon! 15:10:39 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 15:12:14 specbot: where's minion? 15:14:26 welcome back beach, long time no see 15:15:25 does anyone use happen to use the Clozure CL IDE on Mac? 15:16:02 Guthur: Thanks! (I was on as plage some). 15:16:17 thats you? 15:16:21 never realised that 15:16:35 Guthur: Er, beach, spiagga, plage; they all mean the same thing. 15:16:44 hehe 15:17:02 Keeping us on our toes 15:17:02 RaceCondition, no, but if you are, you may find http://tclispers.org/news/cocoalisp-tutorial interesting. 15:17:44 Adlai: cool, thanks 15:18:11 I get it that it can also be used with SLIME? or that's just when I use Emacs + CCL not the IDE? 15:19:21 Adlai: How did you settle? 15:19:30 RaceCondition, I'm not sure; you may want to ask in #ccl 15:19:45 oh, OK, I didn't know there were chans for different compilers 15:21:22 tcr, bookmarked the pages, and I'll discuss them with sykopomp whenever he shows up. I'm still at work right now. 15:21:58 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:22:16 b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 15:22:21 Does anyone know what's with citeseer? I've been getting "Service unavailable" since days, perhaps even weeks. 15:23:48 funny story: my boss asked me to help him plan out a slideshow, so I took notes in org-mode while we discussed it. When I was done, I emailed him the generated HTML, and he couldn't believe that I had created a webpage with a table of contents, links, and all so quickly. 15:23:48 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:31:05 potatishandlarn [n=potatish@c-4f66571e-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 15:31:08 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Client Quit] 15:32:14 _mathrick [n=mathrick@109.243.27.90] has joined #lisp 15:35:27 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 15:36:43 blahgh, ERC has been very fussy today 15:41:54 gilberth [n=gilbert@c220178.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #lisp 15:43:31 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:49:27 cobol000_ [n=r4y@p5496C892.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:49:59 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f755649.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 15:50:22 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:50:49 -!- hoeq__ [n=hoeq@94.254.66.64] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:51:07 software wants to be anthropromorphized 15:51:22 the word I would use would be "buggy as hell" 15:51:50 hi beach, welcom back in yerp! 15:52:38 tcr: no idea, same thing here. OTOH, it has had this kind of problems on and off for as long as I know it. 15:53:00 I think there are other servers, but google does not index them somehow. 15:53:23 Adlai: that's a nice story about org-mode, though 15:53:54 oh, I didn't realize it got through before ERC had its fit. Thanks :D 15:54:18 are there CL libraries for frobbing org-mode files? 15:54:47 -!- gilberth [n=gilbert@c220178.adsl.hansenet.de] has left #lisp 15:55:15 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.219.213] has joined #lisp 15:55:52 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [No route to host] 15:55:55 -!- Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-187-193.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:56:19 b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 15:57:56 *Adlai* finds http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-org-mode/ 16:00:25 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@188.33.176.254] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:00:35 gibranian [n=gibrania@88.238.36.87] has joined #lisp 16:00:56 mstevens [n=mstevens@81.2.103.24] has joined #lisp 16:01:11 tfb [n=tfb@restormel.cley.com] has joined #lisp 16:02:17 ryepup1 [n=ryan@216.155.105.115] has joined #lisp 16:02:35 hoeq [n=hoeq@c-35c8e455.016-475-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:02:54 -!- ryepup1 [n=ryan@216.155.105.115] has left #lisp 16:02:57 -!- cobol000 [n=r4y@p5496E98B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:06:25 _Fury [n=Fury@p57904A3E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:08:27 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@81.2.103.24] has quit [] 16:09:54 alley_cat [n=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 16:11:58 JohnnyL [i=excellen@ool-182f0b98.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 16:12:19 -!- tfb is now known as tfb|away 16:15:19 prxq: used to work reliably for me 16:20:47 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:21:55 -!- _Fury [n=Fury@p57904A3E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:27:17 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 16:28:52 sellout [n=greg@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:31:24 stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has joined #lisp 16:33:27 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@202.137.157.253] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:33:45 c|mell [n=cmell@202.137.157.253] has joined #lisp 16:33:57 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 16:36:07 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:37:01 -!- JohnnyL [i=excellen@ool-182f0b98.dyn.optonline.net] has left #lisp 16:37:52 -!- ragflord [n=Owner@71.92.98.86] has left #lisp 16:39:01 -!- _mathrick [n=mathrick@109.243.27.90] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:39:39 -!- tfb|away is now known as tfb 16:41:18 -!- tfb [n=tfb@restormel.cley.com] has quit ["sleeping"] 16:42:23 -!- potatishandlarn [n=potatish@c-4f66571e-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:44:18 potatishandlarn [n=potatish@c-4f66571e-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 16:44:29 Alabaman_ [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 16:45:37 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@202.137.157.253] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:45:55 c|mell [n=cmell@202.137.157.253] has joined #lisp 16:52:05 In the standard or in CL-FAD is there anything standardized in lisp that's known as a "Current Directory"? Or would that be something implementation-specific with deployables? 16:52:45 Modius, I think the closest in the spec is *DEFAULT-PATHNAME-DEFAULTS* 16:52:48 clhs d-p-d 16:52:53 Modius: there's *default-pathname-defaults*, but that's not kept in sync with what unix thinks is the cwd. 16:53:07 clhs *d-p-d* 16:53:13 -!- stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:53:17 YEah, and I'm in windows-world. Guessing this is going to go implementation-specific 16:53:42 Modius: not more so than in unix. 16:54:25 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 16:56:05 -!- Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:56:31 -!- gabnet [n=gabnet@226.23.67-86.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:56:44 -!- prxq [n=mommer@f051178118.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:57:08 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Client Quit] 16:57:22 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 16:59:49 rswarbrick [i=rupert@molotov.compsoc.warwick.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 17:01:53 sellout- [n=greg@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:02:25 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:02:34 -!- sellout- is now known as sellout 17:07:14 -!- konr`` [n=user@189.98.61.161] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:09:30 konr [n=user@189.98.61.161] has joined #lisp 17:09:46 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:16:43 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:16:49 sellout [n=greg@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:20:26 legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-7-157.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 17:21:07 -!- gibranian [n=gibrania@88.238.36.87] has left #lisp 17:24:28 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 17:29:52 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 17:34:59 -!- rswarbrick [i=rupert@molotov.compsoc.warwick.ac.uk] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 22.2.1"] 17:35:06 sellout- [n=greg@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:36:56 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:36:58 -!- blandest [n=blandest@79.112.118.97] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:40:55 can anyone think of any programming language that has an analogue to sbcl's modular arithmetic 17:41:56 knobo [n=user@ti0073a340-0817.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 17:42:50 Any known trix to compile ele-bdb on ubuntu 10.09? 17:43:35 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 17:43:57 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:45:31 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:46:46 10.09? is that a dev version 17:47:34 IHM 9.10 17:47:47 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:47:48 -!- sellout- is now known as sellout 17:49:02 10.09 is the next major release though 17:49:07 just reading about it 17:49:16 addled [n=adl@77.208.59.82] has joined #lisp 17:49:26 not due until october this year 17:49:27 i thought 10.04 is the next release 17:49:50 09.10 is the version. I mixed up the numbers 17:50:34 canonical has a at least 3 tier release strategy 17:50:55 and the next next should be 10.10 17:51:03 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:51:29 the minor ones, then biggish ones like karmic and then long term support release like 10.09 17:51:59 apparently, would need to read another article to confirm this all though 17:51:59 -!- potatishandlarn [n=potatish@c-4f66571e-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:52:07 where did you get this information? 17:52:19 the register 17:52:21 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:52:29 Help! 11 nested errors. SB-KERNEL:*MAXIMUM-ERROR-DEPTH* exceeded. 17:52:32 oldish article 17:52:33 argh! 17:52:39 http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/04/20/ubuntu_9_04_released/ 17:52:52 hi, I'm using sb-bsd-sockets and making a TCP connection based off of this example http://jsnell.iki.fi/tmp/echo-server.lisp it works fine, but I'm wanting to push data to the client instead of just connect-the-socket->send-a-string->get-reply , any clues or examples of how to do this? 17:52:55 can't see the strategy having changed if that is correct though 17:53:25 the register, oh well 17:53:33 when I run (open-store '(:BDB "(/tmp/db")), I get that error 17:53:40 qbg [n=chatzill@74.33.104.154] has joined #lisp 17:53:40 egn: send-a-string is pushing data. what did you have in mind that is different? 17:54:22 potatishandlarn [n=potatish@c-4f661a91-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 17:54:28 I used to read the register all the time when i was working 17:54:28 marioxcc [n=user@200.77.65.198] has joined #lisp 17:54:43 funnily I stopped reading it when I stopped working 17:54:43 Guthur: only two tiers. ordinary ones have 18 months's support; "long time support" (LTS) releases have longer (3? 4 years?) 17:54:47 funny how it goes 17:55:02 krystof i was counting patches as well 17:55:22 -!- Dra`vi [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:55:50 probably don't really count though 17:56:10 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.91.2"] 17:57:53 Xach: sorry, I'm currently sending a string from the client->server, so I'm pushing data there. but after the connection is made, I want to be able to push a string from the server->client 17:58:22 gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:58:35 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-141-156-235-91.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:18 egn: It's about as simple as that. Write the data to the socket on the server side. 18:00:09 just got vol 1 of knuths are of programming, some bedtime reading hehe 18:00:56 -!- brandelune [n=suzume@pl571.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [] 18:01:16 Xach: ok, I guess where I got confused was that for the server side, I had to use sb-impl::add-fd-handler and sb-impl::serve-all-events to catch the string the client is pushing, so would I have to set up the same thing for the client? 18:02:18 egn: You don't have to do anything like that if you don't want to. 18:02:19 Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-187-193.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 18:02:40 egn: But I'm afraid I don't know anything about serve-event, so I can't help if that's how you want to do it. 18:03:47 Xach: ok, cool. I would rather not use it, but I didn't know what to use instead. The only thing I could think of is just waiting for read-line client-side 18:04:13 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/freenode/x-fiynyzqclamcxzha] has joined #lisp 18:05:41 -!- hoeq [n=hoeq@c-35c8e455.016-475-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Client Quit] 18:05:54 egn: I'd use threads. 18:05:55 -!- TJohn [i=as@114-45-234-250.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:06:05 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:07:37 pkhuong: you're the kind of person who would know: is there anything even analogous to sbcl's modular arithmetic as a programming language construct that I can use as an analogy or reference? 18:08:02 I'm asking around. Not sure. 18:08:29 Ada, sort of. 18:09:17 Dawgmatix_ [n=dman@c-76-124-8-39.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:09:23 someone wrote a macro in scheme that does modular arithmetic and other folks did type directed modulo arithmetic in haskell but maybe thats not really what you meant 18:10:09 soupdragon: the haskell hack is probably comparable. Do you still have a link? 18:10:18 also you get this sort of thing in prolog with constraint programming over finite domains but you'd have to replace all the normal ops with mod tacked on too 18:10:32 dto1 [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:10:50 I know of one thing that's kind of the opposite: "Widening Integer Arithmetic" by Redwine and Ramsey 18:10:58 freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 18:11:14 implementing 32-bit + for the jvm as a 64-bit + a mask 18:11:14 soupdragon: that's what SBCL's hack avoids. You write normal arithmetic, and if you wrap the result in a mod/logand, the modularity propagates into the operands. 18:11:35 sorry, not the jvm, in a java compiler 18:18:11 hoeq [n=hoeq@c-35c8e455.016-475-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:18:28 I get: Compilation finished: 7 warnings 50 style-warnings 710 notes [10.77 secs], when I compile elephant. Should I consider that OK? 18:19:50 with high speed number, notes are ok 18:20:18 sorry I can't find it anywhere 18:20:19 -!- xan-afk [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:23:20 knobo: the warnings may be a bad thing... 18:23:32 knobo: since there are only 7, might as well check into them 18:23:47 Probably is, since the thing does not work :( 18:24:02 maybe the warnings will inidcate why it's not working 18:24:49 rahul: Do you use logical pathnames? 18:24:58 Xach: I rarely use files :) 18:25:13 files are so... 1960 18:25:31 Xach: but no, I haven't used LPNs seriously yet 18:25:44 they scare me very much 18:26:24 the really annoying part is that different implementations don't translate them to physical pathnames the same way 18:26:42 -!- Kolyan [n=nartamon@95-25-18-12.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 18:27:27 but as long as you only ever create the files via LPNs and only use one implementation for all the access, you'll be ok 18:27:52 (this is one major reason why asdf never used LPNs) 18:28:49 *Xach* is going to use them seriously starting today 18:29:20 good luck 18:29:28 (:MESSAGE "COMPILE-FILE warned while performing # on 18:29:28 #." 18:29:28 :SEVERITY :WARNING :LOCATION (:ERROR "No error location available") 18:29:28 :REFERENCES NIL) 18:30:01 knobo: that's a second-order warning. ignore it. 18:30:19 knobo: you're loading it through slime? 18:30:53 yes 18:31:11 there should *SLIME Compilation* buffer with warnings 18:31:25 should be 18:31:40 stassats`: there is something wrong with it. 18:33:08 -!- hoeq [n=hoeq@c-35c8e455.016-475-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Client Quit] 18:33:09 Berkeley DB error #T: Unknown error 1048615 (when I do: (open-store '(:BDB "/home/knobo/temp/contentdb/db"))) 18:33:21 hoeq [n=hoeq@h-66-64.A216.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 18:33:21 -!- hoeq [n=hoeq@h-66-64.A216.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Client Quit] 18:33:43 hoeq [n=hoeq@h-66-64.A216.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 18:34:20 knobo: are you sure your versions of bdb and elephant are compatible? 18:34:53 I have 4.6 18:38:30 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:39:40 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 18:40:24 rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-120-122.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:42:00 ; caught WARNING:; undefined variable: ELEPHANT::WRAPPER 18:42:01 18:42:15 ; caught WARNING:; undefined variable: ELEPHANT::MAP-FN 18:42:32 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Client Quit] 18:43:57 how about these once: ; caught STYLE-WARNING:; The function was called with eleven arguments, but wants exactly fourteen. 18:44:13 -!- Xantoz [n=user@c-e9b6e253.01-157-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:44:57 CORRUPTION WARNING in SBCL pid 13332(tid 3048913776): Memory fault at 100020 (pc=0x9c14963, sp=0xb5b974c0) The integrity of this image is possibly compromised. Continuing with fingers crossed. 18:45:23 ffi problem? 18:45:33 probably 18:45:35 Is that a release or something from VC? 18:45:36 14 arguments? that's something 18:45:51 from clbuild 18:46:59 maybe update sbcl unless 1.0.31.32 is good enough 18:47:09 Xantoz [n=hejhej@c-dab0e253.01-157-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:47:12 Hmm, all my backtraces have gotten useless on darwin. a bunch of foreign functions and system internals only. 18:47:17 online documentation says it supports only bdb 4.5 18:47:40 Xach: yup. 18:47:47 hmmm.. ;; Berkeley 4.5 or 4.6 are valid as set by berkeley-db-version, each 18:47:53 says config.sexp 18:48:09 ubuntu does not have 4.5 :( 18:48:37 you could probably build the source package from an older pool. 18:48:39 i remember building it myself for elephant 18:48:46 pkhuong: Is it the normal state of affairs or is there something I can easiliy do to improve it? 18:49:20 I think that's expected. I don't have any idea how to fix this. nikodemus or slyrus might. 18:49:36 sometimes i'd like to drive a garden fork through my foot, to stop the mental pain of compiling different things 18:55:20 bitflip` [n=user@ip98-184-186-177.tu.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:56:12 nope. 4.5 did not work either 18:56:29 did you recompile? 18:56:58 yes, but maybe 4.5 was not probably not properly installed. I'll have to check 18:57:00 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:57:04 and you should have better luck on the elephant mailing list 18:58:02 -!- soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:00:11 grkz [n=qsvans@c-1dfce255.010-54-6f72652.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 19:02:39 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 19:02:40 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 19:05:21 soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has joined #lisp 19:06:02 |Soulman| [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 19:06:17 Maybe I'll escape.. hahah! 19:06:18 -!- xristos [n=x@research.suspicious.org] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:06:24 -!- defn [i=code@powerprecision.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:06:44 I'm lerning haskell these days. 19:07:05 -!- addled [n=adl@77.208.59.82] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:07:30 Jabberwock [n=jens@port-12970.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 19:07:33 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 19:08:14 addled [n=adl@77.208.184.202] has joined #lisp 19:08:22 xristos [n=x@research.suspicious.org] has joined #lisp 19:08:32 bitflip`` [n=user@ip98-184-186-177.tu.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:08:48 -!- xristos is now known as Guest81866 19:08:55 defn [i=code@powerprecision.com] has joined #lisp 19:09:17 tfb [n=tfb@restormel.cley.com] has joined #lisp 19:09:40 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-60.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:10:10 -!- cmeow [i=cmeow@happy.happy.vhost.shellium.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 19:10:14 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Excess Flood] 19:10:24 stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 19:11:03 cmeow [i=cmeow@happy.happy.vhost.shellium.org] has joined #lisp 19:11:03 macros and dynamic types completely change the way that you can approach monads 19:11:08 -!- cmeow [i=cmeow@happy.happy.vhost.shellium.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 19:11:22 rahul: how so? 19:11:33 cmeow [i=cmeow@happy.happy.vhost.shellium.org] has joined #lisp 19:11:42 it's a tradeoff, sometimes you need to be more explicit because of less type inference 19:12:03 knobo: if you used a source package, make sure you installed the -dev packages, too. 19:12:09 tcr: the good news is that the sb-synchronised still makes sense 6 months later. 19:12:19 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:12:26 however, you can make your transformations more generic and you can write macros that generate both the simple function and the um what's it called... M version of the operator at once 00:07:27 ccl-logbot [n=ccl-logb@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 00:07:27 00:07:27 -!- names: ccl-logbot leo2007 Jasko abugosh quidnunc Odditus happycube mattrepl ruediger_ marioxcc _3b` Phoodus Edward Raptelan ace4016 AntiSpamMeta pr_ _8david` timor tomaw Dominian clog niko Adamant fe[nl]ix DeusExPikachu ikki REPLeffect digms SandGorgon saikatc ASau sepult parolang Dawgmatix bgs100 stoop Guthur ivan_chernetsky Yuuhi Ginei_Morioka Beetny mrSpec yates mrsolo fmu kleppari kejsaren2 wlr kpreid Odin- carlocci zophy-ng slyrus blitz_` gruseom 00:07:27 -!- names: redline6561 Soulman amnesiac dialtone nha abeaumont Sumpen cools hefner Harag Madsy Sergio` grouzen rrice Lithos mathrick dys reprore Spaghettini Xof moesenle ignas legumbre Stattrav wasabi billstclair easyE cmm- coyo rdd daniel benny blast_hardcheese mishoo tarbo NNshag Fufie fihi09 lnostdal adeht GrayGnome potatishandlarn mle TR2N lpolzer_ beach partisan ianmcorvidae Draggor JonSmith Adlai pragma_ tltstc raison c|mell Xach borism dejones 00:07:27 -!- names: specbot minion lisppaste erk DrForr_ yahooooo emma skeptomai|away ivan4th drewc Vonunov nyef eno peterwang johs tic alexsuraci scode krappie lharc rotty qeb`away phadthai ineiros j0ni p_l schme zbigniew jsnell pkhuong arbscht _deepfire weirdo danderson rullie rapacity Zhivago peddie Axioplase_ guaq dmiles_afk Guest53408 koning_robot Soulmann lukjad007 jamesstanley xenosoz2 Holcxjo addled prip alexbobp mornfall aking guaqua PuffTheMagic_ bobrown` 00:07:27 -!- names: Khisanth kloeri kuwabara2 Terminus Patzy slather_ chii wgl hdurer fnordus reb ironChicken dfox_ tychoish PissedNumlock mgr lemoinem disturbance svaksha BrianRice ecraven tvaalen cupe Tabmow nuba xinming pjb p8m Aisling borisc madnificent KatrinaTheLamia jyujin_ sykopomp spiaggia xan Taggnostr foom Ri-|away dostoyev1ky yacin boyscared nicktastic rahul Carnegie Helheim dcrawford bfein srcerer rootzlevel dalkvist anekos kencausey cods djm egn 00:07:27 -!- names: Fade stepnem antifuchs felipe cpt_nemo Tordek housel blackened` Legooolas Pepe_ dto spacebat cmeow_ kingdon_ Orest^bnc rbancroft Wraithan rsynnott cmatei pok rlonstei1 Yamazaki-kun setheus erg djinni` foom2 bdowning hohum fractalis luis dym Tristam herbieB l_a_m Adrinael ramus hoeq z0d koollman whoppix frodef mtd Buganini vsync cataska retupmoca codemonkeyx bakkdoor guenthr clop kom_ fgtech nowherman sjbach joast CrazyEddy slyrus_ ve thijso 00:07:27 -!- names: nullman` trittweiler mikezor joga defn _3b ski dsop antoszka Dodek sytse ``Erik spoofy jrockway nasloc__ Intensity 00:08:55 we are 2 hours into saturday, be patient :) 00:09:07 still 4pm Friday where I am :p 00:09:51 I'm flexible. Any good hack in a 42-hour window works for me. 00:10:03 http://paste.lisp.org/display/93712 hack of yesterday 00:11:32 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.112.195] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:16:01 -!- abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:17:12 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["brb"] 00:18:11 -!- timor [n=timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:18:39 -!- Sumpen [n=Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 00:20:15 another recent hack http://paste.lisp.org/display/93588 <- it's a lolhack, I saw, I loled, I hacked (vidi, loli, hacki) 00:20:56 erm, that's the ugly version. lemme annotate 00:21:19 oh, already annotated :) 00:24:09 -!- Madsy [n=madsy@fu/coder/madsy] has quit ["leaving"] 00:26:03 -!- ramus [n=ramus@adsl-99-23-150-32.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:27:26 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 00:27:53 Only thing I've hacked today is documentation. 00:28:35 ramus [n=ramus@99.23.136.43] has joined #lisp 00:30:41 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:30:50 -!- JonSmith [n=jon@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has left #lisp 00:26:24 ccl-logbot [n=ccl-logb@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 00:26:24 00:26:24 -!- names: ccl-logbot xenosoz2 lithper2 tltstc slyrus_ abeaumont alec trittweiler carlocci bdowning DrForr emma Xof _3b__ Xantoz_ gz ve PuffTheMagic nullman dsop_ joga_ j0ni_ [df]_ rvirding kpreid oconnore_ blackened` Ralith je ivan_chernetsky bgs100 BrianB04_ heyhey sepult Blkt gonzojive Adamant quotemstr rajesh fe[nl]ix Jasko pr rdd proq nyef Guthur jleija nitor ramus legumbre_ myrkraverk seangrove kejsaren marioxcc bipt` jsfb Dodek Beetny koning_r1bot 00:26:24 -!- names: rares anton_v leo2007 slyrus gigamonkey snorble gmdjm1959 mrsolo xan Legooolas Khisanth dejones blast_hardcheese johs stepnem fihi09 potatishandlarn dnm_ anekos Hun benny lichtblau gruseom alexsuraci Orest^bnc rbancroft Wraithan rsynnott cmatei rlonstei1 Yamazaki-kun setheus erg dto Pepe_ luis dym Adrinael kom_ kuwabara2 aking mrSpec pok_ spacebat_ austinh guaqua mornfall yahooooo fmu tensorpudding Phoodus kiuma coyo Tristam cools amnesiac Adlai 00:26:24 -!- names: TR2N bobbysmith007 Modius Fufie grouzen drewc kloeri blandest ikki sykopomp DeusExPikachu blitz_` marcoecc cupe claudia20100125 ryepup1 froydnj wlr reb` djinni` hefner prip G0SUB Sergio` boyscared knobo` Soulman__ Demosthenes delYsid daniel_ addled Madsy saikatc qebab l_a_m NNshag frodef varjagg timchen119 qed ASau ud_ fractalis lpolzer__ cmeow dys araujo lnostdal sellout p8m aidalgol knobo porcelina rahul p_l wgl slather eno Spaghettini ecraven 00:26:24 -!- names: mathrick borism_ Stattrav mikezor_ chillywi1ly beach lemoinem ianmcorvidae _3b` adeht hdurer fnordus ironChicken dfox_ Holcxjo specbot wasabi mgr REPLeffect Guest48615 tvaalen disturbance tychoish PissedNumlock nowhere_man Draggor GrayGnome Tordek UnwashedMeme Xach cmm Fade Krystof arbscht svaksha clog Ri- minion Raptelan AntiSpamMeta tomaw easyE tarbo mle pragma_ raison c|mell lisppaste erk skeptomai|away tic scode krappie lharc rotty phadthai 00:26:24 -!- names: ineiros schme zbigniew jsnell pkhuong _deepfire weirdo danderson rullie rapacity Zhivago peddie Axioplase_ guaq dmiles_afk lukjad007 alexbobp bobrown` Terminus Patzy chii Tabmow nuba Aisling borisc madnificent KatrinaTheLamia jyujin_ Taggnostr foom dostoyev1ky nicktastic Carnegie Helheim dcrawford bfein srcerer rootzlevel kencausey cods djm egn antifuchs felipe cpt_nemo housel foom2 hohum herbieB hoeq z0d koollman whoppix mtd Buganini vsync 00:26:24 -!- names: retupmoca codemonkeyx bakkdoor guenthr clop fgtech Intensity jrockway spoofy ``Erik sytse CrazyEddy joast sjbach 00:27:51 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 00:28:48 heh, it works! IT'S ALIVE! 00:28:50 *drewc* is happy 00:29:13 your humanity-enslaving super robot? 00:29:51 my UNTANGLE feature for my org based literate programming system 00:29:53 abugosh [n=Adium@206.225.102.84] has joined #lisp 00:30:16 dalkvist [n=cairdaza@hd5e24dca.gavlegardarna.gavle.to] has joined #lisp 00:30:16 antoszka [n=antoszka@lemongrass.antoszka.pl] has joined #lisp 00:30:24 so you can modify the .lisp files directly if you like, and untangle them back to the source text in the org file 00:31:10 based around the DESCTRUCTURING-DIFF utility i lisppasted yesterday 00:32:15 ski [n=slj@c-0611e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 00:32:25 thijso [n=thijs@83.98.233.115] has joined #lisp 00:33:14 which is here, only imagine the subseq's are not there anymore : 00:33:16 http://paste.lisp.org/display/93823 00:33:27 *drewc* is obviously quite pleased with himself 05:32:17 ccl-logbot [n=ccl-logb@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 05:32:17 05:32:17 -!- names: ccl-logbot cmeow spradnyesh OmniMancer clog alexsuraci housel fmu QinGW kcxvm stassats apv uzteku kmns hccwqtxra ignas huangjs werdan7 potatishandlarn Phoodus Dawgmatix lpolzer_ ericklc ruediger araujo REPLeffect porcelina_ DeusExPikachu koning_robot dnm_ impulse32 rahul Quadrescence Mezner-athome billstclair Buganini Yamazaki-kun svaksha mtd myrkraverk ceineke_ fatblueduck Adlai cmatei NNshag mathrick Jasko2 xristos Pepe_ antoszka fe[nl]ix 05:32:17 -!- names: wlr Modius c|mell Krystof TR2N dstatyvka boyscared xan kwinz3 legumbre drewc Xof parolang spec[away] rootzlevel hicx174 jsfb Borbus whoppix ski srcerer Taggnostr dcrawford hohum foom bfein fgtech nicktastic tarbo djm nuba ennen foom2 borisc dostoyev1ky FullMetalHarlot jyujin Axioplase_ tomaw Legooolas Khisanth dejones johs fihi09 anekos lichtblau abeaumont fractalis cataska Helheim l_a_m dfox daniel kiuma TJohn Spaghettini ud_ cods madnificent 05:32:17 -!- names: Aisling_ CrazyEddy blast_hardcheese Patzy spacebat yacin tensorpudding fda314925 dmiles lemoinem Ginei_Morioka slather Holcxjo fnordus cmm wasabi ianmcorvidae mgr_ dmm_ gigamonkey cpt_nemo madsy Xantoz hdurer eldragon arbscht herbieB austinh nyef ASau` jroes lnostdal Ri- thijso dalkvist tltstc slyrus_ alec trittweiler bdowning DrForr _3b__ gz ve PuffTheMagic dsop joga j0ni_ [df]_ Ralith pr nitor ramus bipt` Dodek Orest^bnc rbancroft rsynnott 05:32:17 -!- names: rlonstein setheus luis dym Adrinael kom_ aking pok_ guaqua mornfall yahooooo coyo Tristam kloeri sykopomp cupe claudia20100125 reb` djinni` prip Soulman__ delYsid addled frodef varjagg nasloc__ qed ASau p_l eno mikezor_ chillywi1ly beach tvaalen disturbance tychoish PissedNumlock Tordek Xach Fade Raptelan AntiSpamMeta easyE pragma_ erk tic scode krappie lharc rotty phadthai ineiros schme zbigniew jsnell pkhuong _deepfire weirdo danderson 05:32:17 -!- names: rullie rapacity Zhivago peddie guaq lukjad007 alexbobp bobrown` chii Tabmow felipe hoeq z0d koollman vsync retupmoca codemonkeyx bakkdoor guenthr clop jrockway ``Erik sytse sjbach 05:32:17 -!- clog [n=nef@bespin.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 05:32:17 -!- housel [n=nnnuser@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 05:32:18 -!- alexsuraci [n=alexsura@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 05:32:19 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Excess Flood] 05:32:19 -!- fmu [i=root@unaffiliated/fmu] has quit [Excess Flood] 05:32:22 fmu [i=root@unaffiliated/fmu] has joined #lisp 05:32:23 holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 05:38:04 ccl-logbot [n=ccl-logb@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 05:38:04 05:38:04 -!- names: ccl-logbot Intensity alexsuraci xenosoz2 dto1 kencausey joast Draggor nowhereman wgl skeptomai|away dto spradnyesh antifuchs gibranian holycow QinGW kuwabara2 clog cmeow sadiquea UnwashedMeme raison OmniMancer ivan_chernetsky housel fmu gmdjm1959 kcxvm hccwqtxra ignas huangjs werdan7 potatishandlarn Phoodus Dawgmatix lpolzer_ ericklc ruediger araujo REPLeffect porcelina_ DeusExPikachu koning_robot dnm_ impulse32 rahul Quadrescence Mezner-athome 05:38:04 -!- names: billstclair Buganini Yamazaki-kun svaksha mtd myrkraverk ceineke_ fatblueduck Adlai cmatei NNshag mathrick Jasko2 xristos Pepe_ antoszka fe[nl]ix wlr Modius c|mell Krystof TR2N dstatyvka boyscared xan kwinz3 legumbre drewc Xof parolang spec[away] rootzlevel hicx174 jsfb Borbus whoppix ski srcerer Taggnostr hohum dcrawford foom bfein fgtech nicktastic tarbo djm nuba borisc ennen foom2 dostoyev1ky FullMetalHarlot jyujin Axioplase_ tomaw Legooolas 05:38:04 -!- names: Khisanth dejones johs fihi09 anekos lichtblau abeaumont fractalis cataska Helheim l_a_m dfox daniel kiuma TJohn Spaghettini ud_ cods madnificent Aisling_ CrazyEddy blast_hardcheese Patzy spacebat yacin tensorpudding fda314925 dmiles lemoinem Ginei_Morioka slather Holcxjo fnordus cmm wasabi ianmcorvidae mgr_ dmm_ gigamonkey cpt_nemo madsy Xantoz hdurer eldragon arbscht herbieB nyef ASau` jroes lnostdal Ri- thijso dalkvist tltstc slyrus_ alec 05:38:04 -!- names: trittweiler bdowning DrForr _3b__ gz ve PuffTheMagic dsop joga j0ni_ [df]_ Ralith pr nitor ramus bipt` Dodek Orest^bnc rbancroft rsynnott rlonstein setheus luis dym Adrinael kom_ aking pok_ guaqua mornfall yahooooo coyo Tristam kloeri sykopomp cupe claudia20100125 reb` djinni` prip Soulman__ delYsid addled frodef varjagg nasloc__ qed ASau p_l eno mikezor_ chillywi1ly beach tvaalen disturbance tychoish PissedNumlock Tordek Xach Fade Raptelan 05:38:04 -!- names: AntiSpamMeta easyE pragma_ erk tic scode krappie lharc rotty phadthai ineiros schme zbigniew pkhuong _deepfire weirdo danderson rullie rapacity Zhivago peddie guaq lukjad007 alexbobp bobrown` chii Tabmow felipe hoeq z0d koollman vsync retupmoca codemonkeyx bakkdoor guenthr clop sjbach sytse ``Erik jrockway 05:38:12 stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 05:38:26 -!- huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:39:27 yup 05:39:49 ironChicken 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@drewc Xof parolang spec[away] rootzlevel hicx174 jsfb Borbus whoppix ski srcerer Taggnostr hohum dcrawford foom bfein fgtech nicktastic tarbo djm nuba borisc ennen foom2 dostoyev1ky FullMetalHarlot jyujin Axioplase_ tomaw Legooolas Khisanth dejones johs fihi09 anekos lichtblau abeaumont fractalis cataska Helheim 05:50:28 -!- names: l_a_m dfox daniel kiuma TJohn Spaghettini ud_ cods madnificent Aisling_ CrazyEddy blast_hardcheese Patzy spacebat yacin tensorpudding fda314925 dmiles lemoinem Ginei_Morioka slather Holcxjo fnordus cmm wasabi ianmcorvidae mgr_ dmm_ gigamonkey cpt_nemo madsy Xantoz hdurer eldragon arbscht herbieB nyef ASau` jroes lnostdal Ri- thijso dalkvist tltstc slyrus_ alec trittweiler bdowning DrForr _3b__ gz ve PuffTheMagic dsop joga j0ni_ [df]_ Ralith 05:50:28 -!- names: pr nitor ramus bipt` Dodek Orest^bnc rbancroft rsynnott rlonstein setheus luis dym Adrinael kom_ aking pok_ guaqua mornfall yahooooo coyo Tristam kloeri sykopomp cupe claudia20100125 reb` djinni` prip Soulman__ delYsid addled frodef varjagg nasloc__ qed ASau p_l eno mikezor_ chillywi1ly tvaalen disturbance tychoish PissedNumlock Tordek Xach Fade Raptelan AntiSpamMeta easyE pragma_ erk tic scode krappie lharc rotty phadthai ineiros schme zbigniew 05:50:28 -!- names: pkhuong _deepfire weirdo danderson rullie rapacity Zhivago peddie guaq lukjad007 alexbobp bobrown` chii Tabmow felipe hoeq z0d koollman vsync retupmoca codemonkeyx bakkdoor guenthr clop sjbach sytse ``Erik jrockway 05:50:28 xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 05:50:30 skeptomai|away [n=nnnnnnnn@c-71-227-156-96.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:50:31 raison [n=raison@70.90.182.149] has joined #lisp 05:50:31 -!- alexsuraci [n=alexsura@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:50:32 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 05:50:32 kencausey [n=ken@67.15.6.88] has joined #lisp 05:50:34 spradnyesh 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potatishandlarn Phoodus Dawgmatix lpolzer_ ericklc araujo REPLeffect porcelina_ DeusExPikachu koning_robot dnm_ impulse32 rahul Quadrescence Mezner-athome Buganini Yamazaki-kun 05:56:22 -!- names: svaksha mtd myrkraverk ceineke_ fatblueduck Adlai cmatei NNshag mathrick Jasko2 xristos Pepe_ antoszka fe[nl]ix wlr c|mell Krystof TR2N dstatyvka boyscared xan kwinz3 legumbre @drewc Xof parolang spec[away] rootzlevel hicx174 jsfb Borbus whoppix ski srcerer Taggnostr hohum dcrawford foom bfein fgtech nicktastic tarbo djm nuba borisc ennen foom2 dostoyev1ky FullMetalHarlot jyujin Axioplase_ tomaw Legooolas Khisanth dejones johs fihi09 anekos 05:56:22 -!- names: lichtblau abeaumont fractalis cataska Helheim l_a_m dfox daniel kiuma TJohn Spaghettini ud_ cods madnificent Aisling_ CrazyEddy blast_hardcheese Patzy spacebat yacin tensorpudding fda314925 dmiles lemoinem Ginei_Morioka slather Holcxjo fnordus cmm wasabi ianmcorvidae mgr_ dmm_ gigamonkey cpt_nemo madsy Xantoz hdurer eldragon arbscht herbieB nyef ASau` jroes lnostdal Ri- thijso dalkvist tltstc slyrus_ alec trittweiler bdowning DrForr _3b__ 05:56:22 -!- names: gz ve PuffTheMagic dsop joga j0ni_ [df]_ Ralith pr nitor ramus bipt` Dodek Orest^bnc rbancroft rsynnott rlonstein setheus luis dym Adrinael kom_ aking pok_ guaqua mornfall yahooooo coyo Tristam kloeri sykopomp cupe claudia20100125 reb` djinni` prip Soulman__ delYsid addled frodef varjagg nasloc__ qed ASau p_l eno mikezor_ chillywi1ly tvaalen disturbance tychoish PissedNumlock Tordek Xach Fade Raptelan AntiSpamMeta easyE pragma_ erk tic scode 05:56:22 -!- names: krappie lharc rotty phadthai ineiros schme zbigniew pkhuong _deepfire weirdo danderson rullie rapacity Zhivago peddie guaq lukjad007 alexbobp bobrown` chii Tabmow felipe hoeq z0d koollman vsync retupmoca codemonkeyx bakkdoor guenthr clop sjbach sytse ``Erik jrockway 05:56:32 -!- drewc has set mode +i 05:56:41 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:56:48 drewc: You might try +R 04:08:41 ccl-logbot [n=ccl-logb@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 04:08:41 04:08:41 -!- names: ccl-logbot ivan_chernetsky antifuchs skeptomai|away Draggor kencausey redline6561 raison alexsuraci stepnem joast cmeow clog housel bpalmer urantherz Darxus Dorian SandGorgon gtab2 urnthr araujo Adlai oconnore_ Beetny dmiles_afk G0SUB tltstc sjbach ramus madsy hohum_ bipt` spoofy sledge borisc fmu cupe jyujin_ egoz fe[nl]ix stassats` Demosthenes billstclair fatblueduck cmm davazp lithper2_ pkhuong Phoodus DeusExPikachu_ snorble__ drwho moocow 04:08:41 -!- names: Krystof Ralith Kenjin abeaumont Jasko antoszka sepult marioxcc mathrick Fufie konr legumbre pizzledizzle ace4016 proq Modius sykopomp NNshag jsfb cools @drewc myrkraverk koning_robot wlr fihi09 bulibuta ianmcorvidae madnificent spiaggia adeht hypno daniel ASau` Spaghettini Soulmann rullie stoop pjb yahooooo Tordek Buganini nitor prip joga egn felipe holycow Yamazaki1kun Sergio` tychoish phadthai beach tobetchi ClaudiaS Quadrescence qebab jsnell 04:08:41 -!- names: Helheim nalioth werdan7 rahul mtd cmatei xristos Pepe_ boyscared Xof rootzlevel hicx174 Borbus whoppix ski srcerer Taggnostr dcrawford foom bfein fgtech nicktastic tarbo djm ennen nuba foom2 dostoyev1ky Axioplase_ tomaw Khisanth dejones johs anekos lichtblau l_a_m dfox ud_ cods Aisling_ CrazyEddy blast_hardcheese Patzy spacebat yacin tensorpudding lemoinem Ginei_Morioka slather Holcxjo fnordus wasabi mgr_ dmm_ cpt_nemo Xantoz eldragon arbscht 04:08:41 -!- names: herbieB jroes lnostdal Ri- thijso dalkvist slyrus_ alec trittweiler bdowning DrForr _3b__ gz ve PuffTheMagic [df] dsop pr Dodek Orest^bnc rbancroft rsynnott rlonstein setheus luis kom_ aking pok_ guaqua mornfall Tristam kloeri reb` djinni` addled frodef qed ASau p_l eno hoeq z0d koollman retupmoca codemonkeyx bakkdoor guenthr clop sytse ``Erik jrockway Tabmow chii bobrown` alexbobp lukjad007 guaq peddie @Zhivago rapacity danderson weirdo _deepfire 04:08:41 -!- names: zbigniew schme ineiros rotty lharc krappie scode tic erk pragma_ easyE AntiSpamMeta Raptelan Fade @Xach PissedNumlock disturbance tvaalen chillywi1ly mikezor_ 04:08:44 pinterface [n=pinterfa@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 04:08:46 dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:08:48 -!- moocow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 04:08:51 ryepup [n=ryepup@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 04:08:51 LoRez [i=lorez@freenode/staff/lorez] has joined #lisp 04:08:59 saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:09:00 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@222-154-176-179.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 04:09:05 dto1 [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:09:13 moocow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 04:09:13 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 04:09:23 rares [n=rares@174-17-94-251.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 04:09:29 -!- oconnore_ [n=oconnore@c-24-61-119-4.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 04:09:41 holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 04:09:48 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.92.23.60] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:09:49 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.178.72] has quit [Client Quit] 04:09:49 oconnore_ [n=oconnore@c-24-61-119-4.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:10:20 joast [n=rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #lisp 04:10:32 I need to make a reverse function in lisp without a helper function. Limited to these functions (if,endp, car, cdr, rev,cons, nil) 04:10:46 and ofcourse my paste didnt work so gimme a sec 04:10:59 Adlai: Hah, thanks. Yeah, Arc does seem rather incomplete. But.. do you think it's going in a good direction, and will get there? 04:11:34 -!- davazp [n=user@76.Red-88-25-186.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 04:11:52 Forth is the Unibomber?? 04:12:11 un_a_ 04:13:28 is paste form down? 04:13:46 lisppaste isn't in the channel. just paste the URL of your paste. 04:15:43 well it goes to submit but never gives me the url 04:16:06 ironChicken [n=nnnnnric@mx.lurk.org] has joined #lisp 04:16:12 _3b` [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:17:26 lukego [n=lukegorr@246.250.48.60.klj03-home.tm.net.my] has joined #lisp 04:17:42 hey is there a nice way in lisp (or sbcl) to import all _unexported_ symbols from a package? 04:17:59 or (b) to export all symbols in a nice way 04:18:00 JonSmith [n=jon@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:18:09 http://paste.lisp.org/display/94132 04:18:36 oops: http://paste.lisp.org/display/94129 04:19:15 the code works for empty, and > 2 element lists not 1 element list 04:19:20 Any reason I shouldn't begin by reading On Lisp by Graham? 04:21:09 -!- urnthr [n=James@c-98-222-201-170.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:21:12 Darxus: I have both On Lisp and Practical Common Lisp and I'm about 1/2 through PCL and 1/4 through On Lisp... 04:21:35 Darxus: I find both useful but like Practical Common Lisp best 04:21:46 Thanks. 04:22:05 On Lisp is available free from Graham's website... 04:22:05 davazp [n=user@76.Red-88-25-186.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 04:22:45 -!- egoz [n=Egoz@118.96.226.201] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:22:53 It kind of occurred to me today I lack the problems that keep other people from using lisp - I work by myself on much of what I do. 04:23:04 lots of things are available free :-) 04:23:14 Yes. 04:23:17 I'm probably on the 'slow' learning side and I find that On Lisp is better because of the 'assignments' it gives at the end of chapters 04:23:26 And having perl regex capability in common lisp is... good. 04:23:38 PCL is very dense with information and I've had to re-read a few chapters 04:23:46 Heh. 04:24:29 My entire job has basically been perl for 7 years :( 04:24:47 I can't really claim to be able to program in any other languages at this point. 04:26:40 Darxus: why have you decided to learn Lisp? 04:27:10 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:27:20 -!- alexsuraci [n=alexsura@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:27:22 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 04:28:26 cfckbuskevun [n=apmceg@pool-173-65-93-189.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:28:27 -!- cfckbuskevun [n=apmceg@pool-173-65-93-189.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [K-lined] 04:28:36 alexsuraci [n=alexsura@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:28:41 hqfakbdcrwio [n=kgobecrh@c-24-63-130-124.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:28:41 -!- hqfakbdcrwio [n=kgobecrh@c-24-63-130-124.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit [Broken pipe] 04:28:51 fatblueduck: ESR's comments on LISP... affected me, years ago. 04:28:56 -!- JonSmith [n=jon@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has left #lisp 04:29:07 Everything I hear about it excites me. 04:29:14 Today I read a bunch of Graham's stuff. 04:29:41 Makes me wonder why it isn't a lot more common. 04:30:01 Darxus: you have a romanticised interest in Lisp... 04:30:09 Darxus: do you like math? 04:30:18 Today I asked a coworker how familiar he was with Lisp, suspecting that he might be. He wrote a thesis or something on it. Has never written any lisp for the company we work for. 04:31:13 fatblueduck: That's a hard question. I.. had an unfortunate experience with all of academia, including my math teachers. So it's hard to say. But some of it, yes, definitely. 04:31:27 Darxus: I understand 04:32:09 Anyone interested in trying to solve: (Reverse w/o Append) http://paste.lisp.org/display/94131 (issue lies with single element lists) 04:32:23 -!- davazp [n=user@76.Red-88-25-186.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 04:34:34 Dorian: I think you should try a recursive function 04:34:45 Dorian: what are the parameters you must stay within? 04:35:02 fatblueduck: it is recursive. and i give it a True List and return a True List 04:35:21 fatblueduck: I wrote the code to what I think is right and it works, but it doesn't work with single element lists 04:35:25 oh gosh sorry 04:35:27 yes 04:35:58 btw writing the code this way sucks :(. its annoying 04:36:04 reading it is probably just as bad. 04:36:37 but my teacher is trying to challenge us show us code is completely broken down to basic functions in list 04:36:41 lisp* 04:37:04 Man I wish I took lisp in college. Probably wasn't even offered. 04:37:27 I signed up for x86 assembler, but it was cancelled because not enough people signed up :( 04:37:31 So I never learned assembler. 04:38:12 im not really taking lisp in college, im just taking ACL2 which runs lisp files to verify theorems 04:38:31 Dorian: are you 'allowed' to use eql? 04:38:31 urnthr [n=James@c-98-227-36-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:38:32 I understand the business sense of hot-pluggable java coders, but I'm really disappointed that, say, google isn't constantly developing its own language(s). 04:38:57 fatblueduck: unfortunately no :(. 04:39:07 fatblueduck: and yes this question is solvable. 04:39:28 It's funny, a few days ago I was thinking (yet again) that I should learn java for marketability, and the stuff I've read in the last couple days has made me think I want to *avoid* the kind of jobs that would want me to know java. 04:40:46 viz [n=hxswy@206-251-43-87.directcom.com] has joined #lisp 04:40:47 -!- viz [n=hxswy@206-251-43-87.directcom.com] has quit [K-lined] 04:40:47 benny [n=benny@i577A3451.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 04:43:19 RaceCondition [n=RaceCond@82.131.66.125.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 04:43:35 Darxus: Google started its own language, though (and they got a rather good team on it IMHO) 04:44:58 Dorian: I think I'm getting close... :) 04:45:35 zunss [n=ram@74-129-230-140.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 04:45:36 -!- zunss [n=ram@74-129-230-140.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit [K-lined] 04:46:03 Learning s-expressions and macros helps with your wider language understanding 04:46:19 Most programmers have to work in C# or Java. Take C# 04:46:25 fatblueduck: interesting. yeh i smashed my head against a wall till i got that 04:47:04 C# and Java started out equal; but in C# you can explore closures etc., Java is more limiting. 04:47:34 -!- Kenjin [n=josesant@242-71.dial.nortenet.pt] has quit ["Computer has gone to sleep"] 04:47:57 Java has a certain sense of closures, but C# adds in lambdas (delegates) 04:48:38 The short syntax lambda makes a significant difference in using higher-order functions 04:48:39 but I agree, C# took Java and moved forward. Java is trying to play catchup without actually breaking anything internally and thus is more clunky 04:48:56 We're talking a high factor of difference between a C#3 lambda and - whatever you're calling a closure in Java. 04:49:01 i never want to do java, ever 04:49:04 ever again 04:49:25 p_l: Cool, thanks. http://googlesystem.blogspot.com/2009/11/go-googles-programming-language.html 04:49:27 Most of the kinds of people who work in Java and C# program the same way. But in C# you can choose to use certain higher features. 04:50:23 java has "closures" in the sense that an object created within a scope can reference the variables of the scope 04:50:28 For "Go" they should have added: "Has to generally look like C++ so people will use it" 04:50:44 The difference in verbosity will impact the degree to which you will use them. 04:50:49 whereas true closures would have s/object/function/ 04:51:30 The difference means that in C#3 you may pile up a bunch of selects (map), where (filter) etc. etc. in one expression where in Java you - would do something with loops and not use lazy-lists. 04:52:02 One is a clumsy callback assist the other is something you can write most of your program in. 04:53:00 java requires an interface for every place you want to use a lambda 04:53:09 and creating an anonymous inner class 04:53:28 so it's technically functionally equivalent, though a real pain to write 04:53:40 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@246.250.48.60.klj03-home.tm.net.my] has quit [] 04:54:06 In C# now you can do stuff like x => x + 1 - clobbering even the verbose delegate (int x) { return .... } . It's not just a matter of pain - it's enough pain that you just won't do it. 04:54:47 Even without linq you could write a stack of higher-order-functions in a library and do the same (passing in lambdas etc). The same code in Java would be a horror story (probably not possible with the interfaces). It just wouldn't be done. 04:55:09 When something has a factor of 10 more boilerplate, and some of it has to be outside the calling function, it's no longer really equivalent. 04:55:27 vs new IntLambda() { @override public int work(int x) { return x+1;}} :) 04:55:58 (or equivalent; haven't coded Java in a while for obvious reasons) :) 04:56:01 Can you even write map with that? 04:56:05 yeah 04:56:19 For any type? Or does it have to be typed to one type in the interface? 04:56:20 and the IntLambda body still can reference the outer lexical environment 04:56:27 it has to be typed for the interface 04:56:31 No - I mean can I write a map which takes and emits a lazy-list. 04:56:34 Of any type 04:56:35 -!- urantherz [n=James@c-98-227-36-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:56:35 well, you can use generics or Object casting 04:56:57 and of course I'm talking pure hackery, not something that Java intends to be used that way 04:57:04 -!- Zhivago [n=zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:57:07 It's not equivalent. You won't code that way. 04:57:23 it's "technically functionally equivalent", like I said 04:57:37 So's cracking out my assembler if we're going there. 04:57:42 right 04:57:42 Too verbose. It will not be used. 04:57:52 it's not that Java can't do it, it's that you don't want to do it in Java :) 04:57:55 My position stands - you work in C# you will have the chance to write code you won't be in Java. 04:58:23 I mention the choice as that's what most people who push buttons for a living will be cornered into coding for (well, and maybe some sql) 08:35:07 ccl-logbot [~ccl-logbo@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 08:35:07 08:35:07 -!- names: ccl-logbot boyscared Sergio` rullie billstclair lichtblau l_a_m kami` Xof johs alexsuraci Kolyan ianmcorvidae|alt koning_robot kencausey tomaw wasabi TR2N housel stepnem Draggor guaqua Ralith pok Jasko sepult` Reaver Taggnostr antifuchs djm joga Orest^bnc fihi09 setheus Beetny Modius oconnore_ snorble__ drewc rares ttt-- rbancroft gz arbscht Demosthenes luis aking kom_ mornfall Quadrescence Athas NNshag cmatei fmu fda314925 lnostdal pavelludiq clog cmeow 08:35:07 -!- names: dto araujo qebab proq dmiles_afk moocow ryepup lukjad007 mrSpec 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[ac@c-68-34-160-227.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:39:01 ud [ud@ud.net.ru] has joined #lisp 08:39:01 qed [code@powerprecision.com] has joined #lisp 08:39:01 Axioplase_ [~Axioplase@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #lisp 08:39:01 Darxus [~darxus@panic.chaosreigns.com] has joined #lisp 08:39:02 Buganini [~buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 08:39:04 sytse [sytse@speedy.student.utwente.nl] has joined #lisp 08:39:05 Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:39:05 alexbobp [~alex@66.112.249.238] has joined #lisp 08:39:06 egn [~egn@li101-203.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 08:39:06 phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 08:39:08 alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:39:13 -!- alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 08:39:17 xristos [~x@research.suspicious.org] has joined #lisp 08:39:21 tobetchi [~tobetchi@p923e60.sagant01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 08:39:22 ClaudiaS [~user@mail2.siscog.pt] has joined #lisp 08:39:28 alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:39:29 -!- xristos is now known as Guest428 08:39:31 ceineke_ [~chris@24.235.36.231] has joined #lisp 08:39:33 spiaggia` [~user@armadillo.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 08:39:33 when will this end? 08:39:34 -!- alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 08:39:48 alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:39:51 nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 08:39:53 -!- alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 08:40:01 PuffTheMagic [~quassel@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has joined #lisp 08:40:18 alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:40:23 -!- alexsuraci 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[~hicx174@211.214.227.235] has joined #lisp 08:42:18 alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:42:24 -!- naresh is now known as nareshov 08:42:28 -!- alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 08:42:43 alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:42:44 stassats`: no idea. Freenode is transitioning to a new server software; I presume that that is the explanation 08:42:46 actually it looks like the joins are done and now it's just flooding :\ 08:42:49 -!- alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 08:43:02 -!- tvaalen [~r@terminal.se] has quit [Changing host] 08:43:02 tvaalen [~r@unaffiliated/tvaal] has joined #lisp 08:43:03 alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:43:08 -!- alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 08:43:12 right, maybe banning alexsuraci would be a good idea 08:43:23 alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:43:27 -!- alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 08:43:37 Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-151-205-123-229.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:43:47 emma_ [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 08:43:53 alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:43:59 -!- alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 08:44:00 Fade [fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has joined #lisp 08:44:00 ``Erik [~erik@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:44:00 mgr [~mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 08:44:00 p_l [plasek@gateway/shell/rootnode.net/x-igwzuylvcefojbgi] has joined #lisp 08:44:01 pr [~pr@li151-63.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 08:44:01 -!- pr [~pr@li151-63.members.linode.com] has quit [Changing host] 08:44:01 pr [~pr@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 08:44:23 alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:44:28 -!- alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 08:44:53 vsync [~vsync@24.173.173.82] has joined #lisp 08:45:05 nicktastic [~nick@unaffiliated/nicktastic] has joined #lisp 08:45:13 alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:45:18 mikezor [~mikael@c-e3e970d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 08:45:19 -!- alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 08:46:01 yacin [~yacin@tyr.gtisc.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 08:46:03 alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:46:09 -!- alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 08:46:22 -!- Tabstar [~terry@freenode/staff/tabmow] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:47:12 -!- rapacity [~prwg@li30-188.members.linode.com] has quit [Changing host] 08:47:12 rapacity [~prwg@unaffiliated/rapacity] has joined #lisp 08:47:23 alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:47:29 -!- alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 08:47:44 anyone here with op privileges? 08:48:03 jyujin [~mdeininge@vs166245.vserver.de] has joined #lisp 08:48:23 alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:48:29 -!- alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 08:48:48 alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:48:52 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Krystof 08:48:53 -!- alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 08:49:09 CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 08:49:31 Vinnipeg [~sa1vador@95.84.9.167] has joined #lisp 08:49:33 alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:49:36 -!- milanj- [~milan@109.93.76.169] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:49:38 -!- alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 08:49:39 -!- Krystof has set mode +b *!alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net 08:49:39 -!- Vinnipeg [~sa1vador@95.84.9.167] has left #lisp 08:49:49 Krystof: thanks :-) 08:50:07 alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:50:13 -!- alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 08:50:30 Ginei_Morioka [irssi_log@78.114.188.207] has joined #lisp 08:50:31 alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:50:38 -!- alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 08:50:47 lemoinem [~swoog@66.51.248.210] has joined #lisp 08:51:00 guaq [gua@82-128-221-166-Karjasilta-TR1.suomi.net] has joined #lisp 08:51:18 alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:51:21 ok, clearly I didn't get that right 08:51:23 -!- alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 08:51:29 -!- Krystof has set mode -b *!alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net 08:51:29 Dodek [dodek@sh.8px.pl] has joined #lisp 08:51:30 rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 08:51:50 that, or the new ircd is buggy 08:51:58 or just different 08:52:08 alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:52:09 maybe it has an unlimited-size ban list 08:52:13 -!- Krystof has set mode +b *!*@*.aubnin.fios.verizon.net 08:52:14 -!- alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 08:53:42 -!- G0SUB [~ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:54:30 lithper2_ [~chatzilla@ool-182ff1c9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 08:54:43 G0SUB [~ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 08:55:36 mburrows [~mburrows@host86-128-230-9.range86-128.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 08:56:01 myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 08:56:04 Did that last oen work? 08:56:33 saikatc [~saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:57:54 raison [~raison@70.90.182.149] has joined #lisp 08:58:04 ironChicken [~nnnnnnric@mx.lurk.org] has joined #lisp 08:58:14 kwinz3 [kwinz@d83-187-168-23.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 08:59:02 splittist [~bc3ef51e@gateway/web/freenode/x-bzdyrwobeclpgtzw] has joined #lisp 08:59:13 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 08:59:23 I think so 08:59:35 it might have banned all of some american county in the process, of course 08:59:39 -!- Krystof has set mode -o Krystof 08:59:50 -!- nus [~nus@81.24.80.233] has quit [Changing host] 08:59:50 nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has joined #lisp 08:59:57 -!- ironChicken [~nnnnnnric@mx.lurk.org] has quit [*.net *.split] 08:59:57 -!- Dodek [dodek@sh.8px.pl] has quit [*.net *.split] 08:59:57 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@66.51.248.210] has quit [*.net *.split] 08:59:57 -!- Ginei_Morioka [irssi_log@78.114.188.207] has quit [*.net *.split] 09:02:13 Krystof: you can't make omlettes... 09:02:20 ironChicken [~nnnnnnric@mx.lurk.org] has joined #lisp 09:02:21 Dodek [dodek@sh.8px.pl] has joined #lisp 09:02:21 lemoinem [~swoog@66.51.248.210] has joined #lisp 09:02:21 Ginei_Morioka [irssi_log@78.114.188.207] has joined #lisp 09:03:49 Krystof: in #slate I just banned his exact nick host combo and that seemed to be fine, as he's not moving around 09:04:29 I mean, I literaly cut and paste it, the tilde is relevant now 09:04:33 blast_hardcheese [~blast_har@dsl092-043-124.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 09:05:05 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Krystof 09:05:30 -!- smanek [~smanek@c-98-216-105-88.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 09:05:34 -!- Krystof has set mode -b *!*@*.aubnin.fios.verizon.net 09:05:35 srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 09:05:36 -!- Krystof has set mode +b *!~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net 09:05:47 watch me be proved wrong now ;) 09:07:43 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:07:44 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-151-205-123-229.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:07:55 -!- TR2N [email@89-180-236-85.net.novis.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:08:01 Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-151-205-123-229.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:08:18 felipe [~felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has joined #lisp 09:08:19 TR2N` [email@89-180-144-225.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 09:08:46 Fufie [~innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 09:09:16 -!- lacedaemon [~algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:10:10 kencausey: interesting. He seemed to only join #lisp 09:10:46 I'm not sure what you mean, he was joining at least 2 other channels I'm in 09:10:57 -!- TR2N` is now known as TR2N 09:11:32 kencausey: i did a /whois on that nic and there only #lisp appeared. 09:12:14 maybe he was already banned everywhere eles :-) 09:12:16 Vinnipeg [~innocentb@95.84.9.167] has joined #lisp 09:12:44 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755e64.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:14:19 maybe he was joining each channel and dropping out one at a time 09:14:24 -!- mburrows [~mburrows@host86-128-230-9.range86-128.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:14:35 -!- hicx174 [~hicx174@211.214.227.235] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:15:31 prip [~foo@host168-121-dynamic.42-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 09:19:57 hicx174 [~hicx174@211.214.227.235] has joined #lisp 09:21:26 potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f66120c-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 09:21:32 lacedaemon [~algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 09:25:08 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:26:04 nostoi [~nostoi@243.Red-79-147-213.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:26:11 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 09:26:13 kiuma [~kiuma@93-35-252-126.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 09:28:20 ejs [~eugen@94-248-40-209.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 09:30:22 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@243.Red-79-147-213.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Client Quit] 09:30:50 does anyone end predicate function names with ? 09:31:11 scheme programmers do 09:31:25 it seems like it is valid in CL 09:31:40 just convention to use -p? 09:31:42 anything is valid as a name in CL 09:32:45 -!- demmeln [~Adium@dslb-094-216-053-039.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:32:54 brennanc, you can include any character in a symbol's name using the single escape #\\ or the multiple escape #\| 09:33:29 (symbol-name '|(foo bar)|) => "(foo bar)" 09:33:43 Hun [~hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:33:57 since the question mark has no predefined syntax, you don't need to escape it 09:34:13 any compatibility reason why I shouldn't use my-predicate-function? 09:34:32 it just seems much cleaner and easier on the eye than my-predicate-function-p 09:34:47 it's just a matter of convention. There are some CL libraries that use foo? 09:35:05 gotcha 09:35:34 ? often confuses me when not in code 09:35:49 look at your question, you didn't end it with two ?, but with one 09:36:17 lol 09:36:18 plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-14-166.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 09:39:31 -!- Vinnipeg [~innocentb@95.84.9.167] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:41:21 das64 [~das@adsl-67-124-39-87.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 09:44:03 Edico [~Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 09:44:05 Hali_303 [~Hali_303@5400CCFC.dsl.pool.telekom.hu] has joined #lisp 09:44:33 Good morning! 09:44:38 clisp strikes again, doesn't like (make-pathname :directory "/foo/bar/") 09:45:00 *beach* doesn't like the word `clean' when referring to programming. 09:45:01 -!- tvaalen [~r@unaffiliated/tvaal] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:45:53 Yamazaki-kun [~bsa3@2001:ba8:1f1:f0ed:216:5eff:fe00:16b] has joined #lisp 09:45:53 nor "hygienic", "pure", "natural", "intuitive" 09:46:07 hi beach 09:46:14 stassats`: it looks like it's allowed to not want this 09:46:14 hello prxq 09:46:16 stassats`: neither does SBCL, at least not in the sense the caller might be expecting 09:46:42 antifuchs: i know, but it doesn't make life easier 09:46:50 stassats`: make-pathname's :directory allows a string, a list of strings, nil, :wild, :unspecific, or some other object defined by the implementation to be a valid directory component 09:47:07 "The only intuitive interface is the nipple" 09:47:22 stassats`: using lists of strings (and :up) is what makes life /really/ easy (: 09:47:39 antifuchs, is :up like ../ ? 09:47:48 Hi! How to jump to a certain function in slime? Ideally I'd press a shortcut and then it would display a list of functions and as I type, the list gets smaller. Is there something like this? 09:47:57 Hali_303: M-. 09:48:19 tab from the repl, Esc-Tab from editing a .lisp file 09:48:26 and the second part is a description of completion? 09:48:52 stassats`: thank, you very cool 09:48:53 (the tab stuff is for completion, not preview) 09:48:54 M-. is to jump to a definition of a function, M-TAB is to complete a name 09:49:01 tvaal [~r@unaffiliated/tvaal] has joined #lisp 09:49:46 antifuchs tcr lukego: booked 09:50:03 Adlai: yeah. see http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/19_bbdc.htm for an explanation of the different things in there 09:50:14 another long time slime question of mine: in OO language IDE-s, when I start typing something and this something is available in another package and I choose to use it, it automatically inserts the import at the top. how to do that in slime? 09:50:21 sometimes :back is more useful (in SBCL, it changes the behavior w.r.t. symlinks, I believe) 09:50:24 splittist: awesome! 09:50:27 -!- cupe [~cupe@mein.eigensex.org] has quit [*.net *.split] 09:50:27 -!- PissedNumlock [~resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has quit [*.net *.split] 09:50:27 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [*.net *.split] 09:50:27 -!- djinni` [~djinni`@adsl-71-142-225-118.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 09:50:27 -!- ramus [~ramus@adsl-99-23-144-19.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 09:50:27 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 09:50:27 -!- Patzy [~something@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 09:50:27 -!- koollman [~samson_t@ns301422.ovh.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 09:50:27 -!- jrockway [~jrockway@stonepath.jrock.us] has quit [*.net *.split] 09:50:30 cupe [~cupe@mein.eigensex.org] has joined #lisp 09:50:30 jrockway [~jrockway@stonepath.jrock.us] has joined #lisp 09:50:31 Patzy [~something@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:50:34 ace4016 [ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:50:35 koollman [~samson_t@ns301422.ovh.net] has joined #lisp 09:50:40 djinni` [~djinni`@adsl-71-142-225-118.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 09:50:43 PissedNumlock [~resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 09:50:43 sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 09:50:43 ramus [~ramus@99.23.144.19] has joined #lisp 09:51:15 Hali_303: what would you want it to do, complete "funcname" into "package:funcname"? 09:51:25 so, is (make-pathname :name "foo" :defaults #P"/foo/bar/") the way to go? 09:51:44 Phoodus: no, insert an import at the top that imports the given thing 09:51:45 stassats`: it's (make-pathname :name "foo" :directory '(:absolute "foo" "bar")) 09:52:02 antifuchs: but i get directory name from somewhere else 09:52:08 Hali_303: the only means of "import" is the package system 09:52:26 -!- brennanc [~brennanc@cpe-76-166-156-65.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: brennanc] 09:52:27 then you could use merge-pathname with that namestring 09:52:33 -!- proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:52:55 wouldn't :defaults do the same? 09:53:28 ski [~slj@c-0611e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 09:53:28 p8m [~dmm@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 09:53:29 S11001001 [~sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 09:53:30 tensorpudding [~user@99.148.206.229] has joined #lisp 09:53:30 bulibuta [~bulibuta@unaffiliated/bulibuta] has joined #lisp 09:53:39 konr [~user@189.96.98.23] has joined #lisp 09:53:42 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 09:53:50 Spaghettini [~Spaghetti@vaxjo3.132.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 09:53:51 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 09:53:51 Phoodus: actually I'm using clojure and what I'd like emacs to do is that in case I type str-join, then it inserts (use '[clojure.contrib.str-utils :only (str-join)]) at the top 09:53:52 whoppix [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0832.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 09:53:53 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:53:58 xenosoz2 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 09:53:58 dalkvist [~cairdazar@hd5e24dca.gavlegardarna.gavle.to] has joined #lisp 09:54:11 oh, I have no idea about clojure. This is a common lisp channel 09:54:12 oh, actually, i have this: i have a pathname and want to change its directory 09:54:38 Vinnipeg [~innocentb@95.84.9.167] has joined #lisp 09:54:44 Phoodus: isn't there something similar for CL? 09:55:00 antifuchs, thanks 09:55:48 bdowning [~bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 09:55:49 clhs use-package 09:56:00 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/CLHS/Body/f_use_pk.htm 09:56:10 though I've really never seen it in use 09:56:24 it's generally part of the defpackage 09:56:40 stassats`: then you can make a new pathname by supplying an altered pathname-directory component 09:56:42 since it has nothing to do with your file scope, but with your package definition 09:56:45 -!- zbigniew [~zb@3e8.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:57:05 Phoodus: thanks, I'll look into that 09:57:09 (make-pathname :defaults that-pathname :directory (modified-directory-of (pathname-directory that-pathname)) 09:57:10 Hali_303: no. I know what you mean, because Java IDEs do it that way. But that's not how CL and CL programmers do. 09:57:15 (make-pathname :directory (pathname-directory new-directory) :defaults original-pathname) seems to do the right thing 09:57:27 Hali_303: I wouldn't. You should keep your package imports with your package definition 09:57:30 -!- plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-14-166.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:57:36 you'll end up with weird file load ordering issues 09:57:45 even on clisp 09:57:46 zbigniew [~zb@3e8.org] has joined #lisp 09:57:56 I do this for all sorts of things, like switch out some parent dir components and other things. as the directory is just a list, you can do all sorts of neat things with it (: 09:58:11 lichtblau: ok, what do they do? :) 09:58:24 Phoodus: you mean that I should list all imports manually at the top and that's it? 09:58:44 you should list what package your current package is :use'ing once in the defpackage 09:58:51 this isn't a per-file declaration 09:59:12 -!- bdowning [~bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 09:59:13 -!- Vinnipeg [~innocentb@95.84.9.167] has quit [*.net *.split] 09:59:13 -!- xenosoz2 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has quit [*.net *.split] 09:59:13 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [*.net *.split] 09:59:13 -!- bulibuta [~bulibuta@unaffiliated/bulibuta] has quit [*.net *.split] 09:59:13 -!- Yamazaki-kun [~bsa3@2001:ba8:1f1:f0ed:216:5eff:fe00:16b] has quit [*.net *.split] 09:59:15 Hali_303: they have fewer namespaces with shorter names so they don't have this problem 09:59:16 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 09:59:17 bulibuta [~bulibuta@unaffiliated/bulibuta] has joined #lisp 09:59:31 Vinnipeg [~innocentb@95.84.9.167] has joined #lisp 09:59:35 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 09:59:36 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 09:59:40 frontiers [~frontiers@139.79-160-22.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 09:59:45 xenosoz2 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 09:59:58 (the namespaces being called packages) 09:59:58 lukego [~lukegorri@246.250.48.60.klj03-home.tm.net.my] has joined #lisp 10:00:21 as opposed to Java, where the class is also one of the important namespaces 10:00:27 -!- zbigniew [~zb@3e8.org] has quit [Client Quit] 10:00:29 and where imports are per-file 10:00:35 Phoodus: ok, but how do I know what package contains the given function? Ok I can look it up in the docs, but that's kind of slow, when I exactly know that I want to use str-join 10:00:36 bdowning [~bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 10:01:08 Hali_303: the point being, your question as a clojure question, not a CL question. We can't answer it. 10:01:30 c|mell [~cmell@cpc3-colc5-0-0-cust808.colc.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 10:01:41 zbigniew [~zb@3e8.org] has joined #lisp 10:02:14 right. I have no idea how to solve your issue in Clojure 10:02:15 sure, I'm just a bit confused because I'm learning emacs and lisp style programming at the same time 10:02:22 thank you guys 10:03:15 plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-167-29.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 10:03:30 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 10:03:38 -!- zbigniew [~zb@3e8.org] has quit [Client Quit] 10:03:54 zbigniew [~zb@3e8.org] has joined #lisp 10:05:42 -!- das64 [~das@adsl-67-124-39-87.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:08:48 Unhammer [~user@c28374BC1.dhcp.bluecom.no] has joined #lisp 10:09:15 -!- Unhammer [~user@c28374BC1.dhcp.bluecom.no] has left #lisp 10:10:06 Vinnipeg1 [~sa1vador@95.84.9.167] has joined #lisp 10:10:06 nice to see another .de-based CL-focused company 10:10:12 -!- Vinnipeg1 [~sa1vador@95.84.9.167] has left #lisp 10:10:13 *lichtblau* didn't know about limedrive.de 10:10:30 Hali_303, if you exactly know that you want to use str-join, you know exactly what package it's in, don't you ?-) 10:10:40 -!- Guest12365 [w@rodney.ltd.pl] has left #lisp 10:10:57 weirdo [w@rodney.ltd.pl] has joined #lisp 10:12:46 -!- bdowning [~bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 10:12:56 -!- lithper2_ [~chatzilla@ool-182ff1c9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:13:31 bdowning [~bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 10:13:45 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 10:14:40 lichtblau, "high quality gamefun in browserbased online games"? 10:15:18 Jabberwockey [~jens@port-13460.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 10:15:34 Yamazaki-kun [~bsa3@2001:ba8:1f1:f0ed:216:5eff:fe00:16b] has joined #lisp 10:15:41 -!- Vinnipeg [~innocentb@95.84.9.167] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:16:33 oh, they acquired some one for "PHP/SQL". not exactly CL focused, I guess. 10:16:48 s/some one/someone/ 10:17:05 nus: well maybe this is the way in lispland, however in OO editors, I just start typing the name of a type and it presents me a list of matching types and if I select one, it automatically inserts an import statement at top. This way I don't have to remember the package name and also, don't have to insert the import statement itself 10:17:54 well, the lispjobs ad is asking for SBCL skills and team leading experience, so it sounds more like they're expanding a game server team considerably or something 10:18:00 lispm [~joswig@g224126203.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:18:22 Hali_303, "OO editors"? :-) 10:18:29 Hali_303: the difference is that import statements are only related to namespace, which is file-specific in the languages usually used for "OOP" 10:18:37 "OO editors?" 10:18:37 lpolzer must have the inside scoop 10:18:38 ahahaha 10:18:38 tic: expand that to OO language editors 10:18:41 Hali_303, chant "dynamically typed" 10:18:56 Hali_303, you do know Lisp (and CLOS) is very much object-oriented? 10:19:05 *nus* browses lispjobs 10:19:29 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:19:58 tic: yes I know about CLOS but until now I had no chance to use it in practice 10:20:06 lichtblau, nus: I'm busy with another job right now so we're looking for someone to jump in as lead developer for our lisp game 10:20:09 Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has joined #lisp 10:20:56 lpolzer, lisp game? 10:22:18 tcr1 [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 10:22:31 araujo, http://www.thanandar.de/ 10:24:44 lpolzer, I don't speak foreign too good :\ 10:25:30 seems nice, i don't know german either ... 10:25:31 the latest company blog post saying essentially "oops, we don't have raid" sounds a bit like you should hire a sysadmin first ;-) 10:26:55 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755e64.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:27:29 *nus* doubts anyone "..with powerful skills in Steel Bank Common Lisp" would have "..strong grip" over PHP 10:27:31 lichtblau, it's mainly a question of expenses ;) 10:27:38 though, chances might be 10:27:59 noo, lpolzer, noo! :) 10:28:25 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755e64.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 10:29:22 also "expertise as Server-Administrator" in the job description hints someone going to lead the devs would have to deal with the problem too :-) 10:30:24 anyway, good luck with applicants :-) 10:30:46 yeah you can really see how much I've been occupied as all-hands tech guy there ;) 10:32:24 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755e64.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:33:58 Adlai, can you file a github ticket for the paktahn bug you're seeing? 10:34:38 lpolzer, sure, let me try and reproduce it 10:34:41 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755e64.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 10:35:15 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 10:36:59 lpolzer, is there any easy way to log an interactive shell session to a file? 10:37:06 something like CL:DRIBBLE 10:37:46 "script" 10:38:02 script(1), that is 10:39:17 -!- lukego [~lukegorri@246.250.48.60.klj03-home.tm.net.my] has quit [Quit: lukego] 10:39:18 lpolzer: if you're going to bother to put a (c) notice on your site/blog, do remember to keep it updated (e.g. '(c) 2007-2009 All Rights Reserved Limedrive') (: 10:40:13 -!- ejs [~eugen@94-248-40-209.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 10:40:18 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755e64.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:40:34 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:40:57 splittist, thanks -- I relayed it to the guy responsible for it 10:42:16 it's 2010 already? oh 10:43:18 lpolzer, I can't reproduce the bug right now... do you want a vague and useless bug report anyways? 10:43:43 (it happened to me earlier today and I deleted the local cache file... maybe clearing that out fixed something?) 10:44:22 daniel [~daniel@p5082B427.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:44:23 lpolzer: i'm in augsburg :) 10:44:32 LukeL_ [nobody@unaffiliated/lukel] has joined #lisp 10:44:40 though i already have an offer and am just about to sign the contract 10:45:04 Adlai, it'd be good to know what exactly is wrong of course... 10:45:26 Hun, you could apply anyway and compare the offers ;) 10:45:50 i could come by next week and visit the company :) 10:47:30 sounds good, you could meet with our ceo 10:47:31 -!- daniel_ [~daniel@p5082BB28.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:48:20 Hun, just write to contact@limedrive.de to arrange a meeting with him 10:49:10 i'll do that once i hand in my thesis 10:49:48 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755e64.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 10:51:27 Vinnipeg [~Vinnipeg@n1.jabber.d6.hsdnsrv.net] has joined #lisp 10:53:01 is the behaviour of LDB affected by big/little-endian? 10:53:16 no 10:53:43 so (LDB (BYTE 8 0) B) always returs 8 of the least significant bits from B? 10:53:50 yep 10:54:17 great 10:55:36 but (SETF (LDB ... B) ...) does not actually modify the *value* inside B but creates a new value and assigns that to B? 10:55:56 lpolzer, not the most helpful bug report, but you asked for it! http://github.com/skypher/paktahn/issues#issue/18 10:56:12 I can reproduce it in fact 10:56:24 just installed and removed madwifi, and it's still listed as installed 10:56:50 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 10:56:52 awesome. I mean oh no! 10:57:11 RaceCondition: right 10:57:38 lpolzer, ever since I deleted .paktahn/cache/local.contents, I haven't had this bug again. 10:57:46 stassats`: so CL handles values still as objects and just keeps references to them and never modifies them in place like C/C++ 10:57:52 haven't done lots of package frobbing since then, though 10:58:03 no 10:58:11 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 10:58:40 Adlai, I'm pretty sure there's a bug in the code 10:58:46 stassats`: I mean, conceptually... not necessarily technically... 10:59:02 looks that way 11:00:34 RaceCondition: i don't know how C or C++ modify objects, but you can modify objects in CL 11:00:47 numbers are immutable objects 11:00:52 stassats`: I mean modify integers and bytes etc, not objects 11:00:56 yes, that's what I meant 11:01:57 -!- Vinnipeg [~Vinnipeg@n1.jabber.d6.hsdnsrv.net] has left #lisp 11:02:34 and some numbers are immediate, so modifying them wouldn't make much sense 11:03:06 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:04:40 maybe it would make, but i wanted to say that it doesn't keep references to them 11:05:11 RaceCondition: in lisp, it doesn't make sense to say "i mean , not objects." every value is an object. 11:05:41 Xach: I know that, yes :) i was just being lax with my wording 11:05:59 value-objects, if you will 11:06:10 literal objects? 11:07:02 i won't. 11:07:09 Hun: you stop with your bachelor? 11:07:11 values as opposed to entities, so normally immutable vs mutable, it's just that in C/C++ value-objects are also mutable, which is why I asked -- to make sure 11:07:28 beh someone stole my nick 11:07:34 entities? 11:07:37 tcr1: diploma thesis. do you want to read it? i still have time for corrections :) 11:07:47 Xach: nevermind, it's not important 11:07:51 Hun: when is it due, what's it about? 11:07:55 RaceCondition: CL says "you can't modify this", so it can't be implemented as anything 11:08:03 it's a port of the GCC to a new processor 11:08:03 -!- tcr1 is now known as tcr 11:08:15 it's due on march 22nd, but i want to hand it in some time this week 11:08:47 wow awesome 11:08:58 s/can't/can/ 11:09:17 Hun: It's exam time for me, I'd prefer reading it in end of february 11:09:49 that's okay. i could just send it to you, but i'll still hand it in this week :) 11:09:51 Vinnipeg [~Vinnipeg@n1.jabber.d6.hsdnsrv.net] has joined #lisp 11:10:18 ah well perhaps I'll read it nontheless 11:10:43 I haven't started doing anything for exams anyway even though I've meant doing so over the past week ;) 11:10:52 :) 11:11:12 what's your email again? my gmail doesn't seem to remember 11:11:29 Hun: trittweiler at c-l dot net 11:14:12 it's out :) 11:18:35 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 11:18:45 Reaver1 [~Joachim@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 11:19:32 marcob [~marco@host99-5-dynamic.0-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 11:19:55 -!- Reaver [~Joachim@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:20:37 -!- LukeL_ [nobody@unaffiliated/lukel] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 11:21:16 hi all 11:23:16 LukeL_ [nobody@unaffiliated/lukel] has joined #lisp 11:24:25 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:24:27 timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 11:24:40 hello marcob 11:24:40 Anyone can comment on contrib/experimental-thread.patch? Is that still somewhat relevant? Perhaps it should get deleted.. 11:25:16 is this book of any use anymore? http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/cltl2.html 11:25:34 how much of what that book has still holds? at least for a beginner 11:26:15 -!- spoofy [~spoof@78.31.74.25] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:26:28 pretty much 11:26:45 RaceCondition: lots of it. Almost all. It is extremely well written. I think it is well worth reading, bearing in mind it is /not/ the spec. 11:27:17 splittist: perfect :) seems to be a good book for reference 11:27:38 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/0e9aced3bf023d86 "How do I alter CLTL2 to note ANSI changes?How do I alter CLTL2 to note ANSI changes?" 11:27:49 but once 11:28:03 Anyone use "iterate" in clozure cl? It seem to be a name conflict for "iterate:terminate"? 11:28:39 marcob: don't use it in cl-user? 11:29:36 stassats`: is it the only way? 11:30:21 RaceCondition: it's not a good book for reference, exactly. the reference is a good reference. cltl2 has nice, readable prose. 11:33:46 rdd` [~rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 11:33:49 marcob: shadow terminate in cl-user? 11:34:41 myrkraverk` [~johann@85-220-122-114.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has joined #lisp 11:35:36 somecodehere [~ingvar@75.186.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 11:35:52 weird... I downladed the PS version of that book, Preview.app converted it to PDF, but the quality looks really bad... maybe it'd look better printed... 11:37:12 -!- myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:37:52 there's html 11:38:50 and there were tex sources? 11:39:21 stassats`: ok, thank you 11:40:32 oh, great, TeXShop did a far better job than Preview.app 11:40:39 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 11:40:58 -!- marcob [~marco@host99-5-dynamic.0-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: marcob] 11:41:28 with the DVI format file, that is 11:45:34 DrunkTomato [~DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 11:47:34 -!- Reaver1 [~Joachim@212.88.117.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:48:52 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:49:37 dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:49:55 Reaver [~Joachim@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 11:50:07 smanek [~smanek@c-98-216-105-88.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:53:27 15SAAAD9Q [~nandan@59.178.177.197] has joined #lisp 11:57:30 -!- lacedaemon [~algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:00:52 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-138-21.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 12:02:05 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 12:05:46 -!- kwinz3 [kwinz@d83-187-168-23.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:07:36 -!- smanek [~smanek@c-98-216-105-88.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 12:08:12 -!- prxq [~mommer@f051068080.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:09:34 lacedaemon [~algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 12:09:53 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:11:02 -!- 15SAAAD9Q is now known as nunb 12:11:08 mburrows [~mburrows@host86-128-230-9.range86-128.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 12:12:20 -!- nunb [~nandan@59.178.177.197] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:12:41 nunb [~nandan@59.178.177.197] has joined #lisp 12:13:14 -!- nunb [~nandan@59.178.177.197] has quit [Client Quit] 12:13:36 nunb [~nandan@59.178.177.197] has joined #lisp 12:13:46 spearalot [~spearalot@41.130.58.97] has joined #lisp 12:15:04 -!- nunb [~nandan@59.178.177.197] has quit [Client Quit] 12:15:25 nunb [~nandan@59.178.177.197] has joined #lisp 12:24:03 leo2007 [~leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 12:24:03 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 12:24:24 -!- lacedaemon [~algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:25:44 -!- nunb [~nandan@59.178.177.197] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:26:29 -!- mburrows [~mburrows@host86-128-230-9.range86-128.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:28:23 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-138-21.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:30:22 spoofy [~spoof@78.31.74.25] has joined #lisp 12:31:57 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:32:57 nunb [~nandan@59.178.177.197] has joined #lisp 12:35:42 -!- Krystof has set mode -o Krystof 12:36:54 lacedaemon [~algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 12:38:08 blackened` [~blackened@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 12:41:07 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 12:41:44 carlocci [~nes@93.37.194.88] has joined #lisp 12:42:35 -!- spoofy [~spoof@78.31.74.25] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:43:57 marcob [~marco@host99-5-dynamic.0-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 12:44:51 dlowe [~dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:45:42 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp121-45-32-142.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:45:42 -!- nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has quit [Quit: .] 12:45:45 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 12:46:15 -!- konr [~user@189.96.98.23] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:47:38 -!- lacedaemon [~algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:49:16 -!- madsy [~madsy@ti0207a340-1441.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:49:43 Alabaman [~badgerfac@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 12:51:09 Guthur [~Michael@host81-132-171-8.range81-132.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 12:51:50 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 12:52:42 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:53:58 rsynnott [rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has joined #lisp 12:54:59 who can make lisppaste rejoin? 12:55:55 http://paste.lisp.org/display/94144 <-- is this a bug in SBCL, or did I do something not kosher? 12:59:08 kwinz3 [kwinz@213142121086.public.telering.at] has joined #lisp 13:00:02 lacedaemon [~algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 13:00:29 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:01:03 tankrim [~qsvans@c-eefce255.010-54-6f72652.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 13:01:31 -!- fatblueduck [~chris@71.104.235.97] has left #lisp 13:03:11 -!- Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:03:24 Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 13:03:36 kenjin2201 [~kenjin@220.120.43.80] has joined #lisp 13:04:27 -!- kwinz3 [kwinz@213142121086.public.telering.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:04:42 -!- lacedaemon [~algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:08:29 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 13:08:58 gabnet [~gabnet@7.23.67-86.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 13:11:28 Edward [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-7-51.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:11:35 Edward_ [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-7-51.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:11:48 madsy [~madsy@ti0207a340-0495.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 13:13:05 benny [~benny@i577A33C1.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 13:13:13 -!- Reaver [~Joachim@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Killed (NickServ (GHOST command used by [reaVer]!~reaver@unaffiliated/reaver))] 13:15:37 .. 13:15:45 -!- kenjin2201 [~kenjin@220.120.43.80] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:16:48 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:17:11 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 13:17:31 lacedaemon [~algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 13:17:34 kenjin2201 [~kenjin@220.120.43.80] has joined #lisp 13:17:35 Reaver1 [~Joachim@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 13:18:22 mathrick: For your yesterday's use case, I think the ideal sync. datastructure would be gates which you can open, close, and wait-until-opened 13:18:50 so the workers wait-until-open, and the dispatcher closes when source becomes unavailable 13:19:02 so new workers won't try to access the source 13:20:04 once the gate is closed 13:20:33 CyberBlue [~yong@111.167.14.202] has joined #lisp 13:21:45 kwinz3 [kwinz@securewlan-236-051.pns.univie.ac.at] has joined #lisp 13:22:00 -!- marcob [~marco@host99-5-dynamic.0-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: marcob] 13:28:17 konr [~user@187.88.144.14] has joined #lisp 13:30:07 -!- emma_ is now known as emma 13:31:46 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 13:33:44 -!- Edward [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-7-51.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 13:34:11 tcr: did you see you've made me go to WienLisp? 13:34:29 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:35:26 no :-) 13:35:35 nice to hear though 13:36:56 can this be considered a calendar-worthy meeting that complete strangers can crash? 13:37:53 I'm not sure 13:38:28 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:38:35 marcob [~marco@host189-71-dynamic.2-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 13:38:49 *Xach* will attend, gauge reaction, travel back in time and decide 13:40:13 -!- Reaver1 [~Joachim@212.88.117.162] has left #lisp 13:40:31 Xach: I'm assuming there will be t-shirts, live-streaming, banners along the Ringstrasse, airport greeters etc. 13:41:34 splittist: for some reason, I started contemplating how much such a thing would cost, just to see faces of attendees 13:41:52 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:42:34 p_l: city dressing (banners on lightpoles etc.) usually works the other way - the city does it as a condition of being awarded the prestigious event/conference/whatever... 13:45:25 lisppaste [~lisppaste@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:47:01 minion [~minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:47:08 specbot [~specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:49:04 Xach: I think you can calendarize it 13:49:16 I certainly will blog about it and announce it on local channels 13:49:48 European Lisp and Maker Meetup/OPEC Edition ? 13:50:21 more like IAEA 13:51:18 -!- marcob [~marco@host189-71-dynamic.2-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: marcob] 13:51:25 ramalamadingdong [~ramalamad@auf186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 13:52:29 -!- Vinnipeg [~Vinnipeg@n1.jabber.d6.hsdnsrv.net] has left #lisp 13:54:32 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 13:57:41 macdice [~user@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:58:04 -!- ramalamadingdong [~ramalamad@auf186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:59:18 marcob [~marco@host189-71-dynamic.2-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 13:59:21 -!- Edward_ [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-7-51.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:59:54 -!- c|mell [~cmell@cpc3-colc5-0-0-cust808.colc.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:00:11 -!- Xantoz [~hejhej@c-8db4e253.01-157-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:00:44 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:02:07 hi, i'm playing with cl-gtk2-gtk under clisp, and i find that it works nicely when i do stuff in the repl, but when i create an executable with ext:savememinit, the gtk stuff doesn't work anymore. is there something special i need to do for cffi dynamically linked libraries to work when an image is revived in an executable? 14:02:51 -!- CyberBlue [~yong@111.167.14.202] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:03:13 doesn't work -> any gtk call blocks, not returning 14:03:34 CyberBlue [~yong@111.167.14.202] has joined #lisp 14:03:50 splittist: you can always pay for it too - I doubt we would manage to get a sufficiently hi-profile event to get such treatment from the city 14:06:46 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 14:08:15 jleija [~jleija@adsl-243-224-252.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 14:08:50 macdice: not very helpful i guess and i dont know gtk, but i guess it uses some sort of event loop? did you set up that properly if so? 14:09:08 macdice: i have been "locked out" with other libraries when such things are not handled properly at least. 14:09:16 varjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 14:09:48 gz_ [~gz@216-220-228-58.midmaine.com] has joined #lisp 14:10:00 yeah it has a main loop, but i'm calling that in my 'main' function (ie the one that the executable runs on startup, and that's definitely being called as it prints a hello world message) 14:10:51 i'm working on a pretty unusual platform, a nokia n900 phone :-) the reason may have something to do with the fact that it's a brand new port of clisp to maemo linux (done by 'fionbio') 14:11:52 well, that is definely one possible source of brutal fuck up, yeah. i've had many of those on "obscure" platforms. 14:11:57 c|mell [~cmell@cpc3-colc5-0-0-cust808.colc.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 14:12:01 *_deepfire* tries to make org-jekyll carry tags through 14:12:02 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:12:39 -!- marcob is now known as marcob_ 14:13:01 p_l: yes, you can always pay. OTOH, it is surprising how modest an event has to be to appeal to the ego of city bureaucrats/politicians. (It would take a lot of groundwork [in The Sting sense] for a lisp event to qualify...) 14:13:24 -!- marcob_ is now known as marcob 14:13:52 p_l: you coming, too? (: 14:14:28 also, oh great, now I have the Entertainer playing in my head. 14:15:33 Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 14:16:26 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 14:17:02 hypno: what obscure platforms were you working on? 14:18:07 How obscure is maemo? Isn't it just relatively stock debian/arm? 14:18:12 i'm researching the options for writing a mostly crossplatform (ie mostly the same source) app for maemo, android and iphone in lisp 14:18:32 yeah maemo is a pretty standard debian environment (well, it ships pretty light but you can install more) 14:18:41 it's quite an obscure platform when it comes to setting it up 14:18:52 and very patched from the standard debian 14:19:14 but it's probably relatively easy to set up a toolchain for it 14:20:25 -!- Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:20:44 macdice: i've had SBCL/CMUCL/CLISP/ECL blow up in all sorts of more or less spectacular way on just about anything except linux/i386, unfortunatley. not all times related to FFI tho (but that too). 14:21:42 -!- spearalot [~spearalot@41.130.58.97] has left #lisp 14:21:54 well i'm just at the hello world stage right now but so far, developing on the n900 is great fun, using SLIME from my mac, and interacting with the GUI which I can test and tinker with on the n900 device, it's really interactive and fun 14:22:56 cool 14:23:16 Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 14:24:00 <_deepfire> Does anybody use jekyll for blogging here? 14:24:16 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:24:34 oh, i bet it is! keep hacking away! i have the same experience with opengl and lisp - i've not have this much fun in years with programming! 14:29:36 -!- tankrim [~qsvans@c-eefce255.010-54-6f72652.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:30:06 tankrim [~qsvans@c-eefce255.010-54-6f72652.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 14:30:28 as for lisp hacking on iphones, i see that there is at least one scheme app that was approved by apple -- but that was compiled to C with the gambit compiler, so i guess that was able to pass apple's "doesn't contain an interpreter" test (pure speculation). to do the same with cl could make ecl the best choice, maybe? 14:31:04 i think ECL is your only chooice, actually. 14:31:14 well, build an SBCL w/o EVAL? :-) 14:31:20 dabd [~dabd@a85-139-104-2.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 14:31:27 macdice, you'd just need to sufficientnly castrate your app to the point where Apple was convinced that the user couldn't use it as an interpreter or compiler 14:32:22 -!- dabd [~dabd@a85-139-104-2.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:32:26 -!- marcob [~marco@host189-71-dynamic.2-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: marcob] 14:33:00 yeah. sounds like tricky business. mail them and figure out more exactly what is the requirement? i've heard life can become very depressing if not. :/ 14:33:33 -!- sepult` [~levgue@xdsl-87-78-171-212.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:34:20 -!- CyberBlue [~yong@111.167.14.202] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:34:33 CyberBlue [~yong@111.167.14.202] has joined #lisp 14:36:16 sepult [~levgue@xdsl-87-78-171-212.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:36:30 or don't do business with the beast that is apple 14:37:02 marioxcc [~user@200.92.23.60] has joined #lisp 14:37:20 -!- Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:39:03 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 14:39:16 antifuchs: no, no money, no time etc - but I'd be happy to attend one day :) 14:39:52 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-78-36-181-6.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 14:40:49 antifuchs: though, if there was an organised group from UK... 14:42:14 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 14:42:26 you talking about the lisp symposium in lisbon? 14:44:00 p_l: and Gmail was just showing me a relevant ad http://www.lunajets.com/en/ (; 14:45:58 in my attempt to find out how to ask apple about how a lisp app could be accepted i have encountered a $99 paywall to 'join the develop program'. i think i'll give up and focus on maemo for now :-) 14:46:00 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440502.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 14:46:18 LiamH [~nobody@pool-141-156-235-91.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:46:39 macdice: you can use ECL 14:47:07 splittist: haha 14:47:24 Orange1 [ircap@186.140.90.225] has joined #lisp 14:48:57 another option - not so often argued for perhaps - would be to write your own proto-lisp that compiles down to machine code for the iphone? perhaps a bit excessive, but if you can use the language for many products, it might be a very fun way to about it. :) 14:51:21 gemelen_ [~shelta@shpd-78-36-181-6.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 14:51:42 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:51:59 sounds like fun, but one of my goals is to find a way to use the same source (at least mostly) for android, iphone and maemo -- so sticking to either cl or scheme seems like a good way to keep options open (abcl on android, ecl (?) on iphone, ecl or clisp on maemo OR sisc on android, gambit on iphone and maemo) 14:53:32 I've written an sexpression->C++ that could do macros that could partially expand outside of themselves (and via that, limited type inference and closures). But a model to look at here may be parenscript - knock up an s-expression=>language converter for some garbage-collected language, give it macros, then you can code in s-expressions for some known language. 14:53:45 Dynamic garbage-collected language that is. 14:55:13 The problem is that you have to debug your target-language. 14:55:29 So that approach doesn't scale 14:55:39 If it's a dynamic gced language on the iphone there's a good chance you can't really "debug" it anyway. 14:55:46 We don't exactly singe-step thru lisp either. 14:56:02 The alternative is to implement CL over any other PL, but this doesn't scale well either, because of performance leaks. 14:57:02 Modius: You do see a Lisp backtrace though 14:58:17 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-78-36-181-6.static.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:58:51 -!- gemelen_ [~shelta@shpd-78-36-181-6.static.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:59:09 macdice: I think clozure may have investigated lisp-on-arm options a while back. but the developer terms&conditions for the iphone pretty much exclude every implementation of a programming language environment on the platform 15:00:14 So the conclusion is to make an killer application for another platform, and drive Apple out of business... 15:00:23 there was discussion on openmcl-devel@clozure.com recently about CCL on the iPad 15:00:28 this has been the conclusion for a while now 15:00:32 :-) 15:00:37 all that's left to do is for somebody to actually do it! 15:00:43 what are you waiting for, people? 15:00:51 SBCL on Arm! 15:01:03 (incf adlai) 15:01:15 SBCL on Leg! 15:01:15 nyef started a port 15:01:32 hehe just ARM 15:02:08 *Adlai* is tired, goes to sleep. 15:02:36 with advent of more powerful arms into mobile devices sbcl port might make more sense 15:03:08 -!- LukeL_ [nobody@unaffiliated/lukel] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 15:03:21 maxalwings [~user@196.12.155.152] has joined #lisp 15:03:27 there is thumbEE which is gear towards interactive languages 15:03:59 Given that Macintosh Common Lisp was the development for a tablet computer at Apple already 15:04:31 which turned into dylan, and the tablet was canceled (: 15:04:35 MCL had a cross compiler for 'Ralph' (a Lisp language) to ARM 15:04:49 MCL was the compiler for Dylan 15:05:00 MCL was the remote debugger for Dylan 15:05:11 MCL was the build tool for it, too 15:05:19 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 15:05:50 -!- Guest3692 is now known as pkhuong 15:06:01 the tablet was cancelled, because it approached $10000 15:06:14 or something in that range 15:06:20 hehe sure Apple products are always overpriced anyway 15:06:24 heh. way I heard it, there was a different root cause (: 15:06:40 but it was a long time ago, etc. 15:06:44 what you heard was why Dylan was cancelled 15:06:51 but Dylan was not the tablet 15:06:51 possibly 15:07:32 Dylan was also thought to run on the smaller thing, like the MessagePad, but it was too large 15:07:43 took 4 MB RAM 15:07:47 instead of 2 15:07:58 MB! 15:08:49 but even then the development environment for the Newton got written in MCL, too 15:09:16 i had one of those newton messagepads. it was a really nice user interface, but it was *really* slow. maybe that was running dylan code? 15:09:25 no 15:09:35 it was a tiny machine 15:09:36 i dont think so 15:09:39 with a VM 15:09:45 written in C++ 15:09:51 running Newtonscript 15:09:59 which was compiled to byte code 15:10:16 NewtonScript is a mix of Self, Smalltalk and Lisp - mostly 15:10:33 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:10:43 but what was slow was the hardware 15:10:53 one of the early ARM processors 15:11:02 slow and few memory 15:11:25 20 Mhz 15:11:35 ruediger [~quassel@188-23-189-57.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 15:11:35 640 KB RAM 15:11:43 4 MB ROM 15:11:48 lispm: the table was canceled because it was hot and had short battery life (the original mac tablet, I mean) 15:11:55 Mhz is crap measure of performance though 15:12:16 there were many tablet projects at Apple 15:12:36 legacy of intel marketing department probably 15:12:36 after my messagepad died i got an early palm device -- it was so minimalist that you could hardly compare the two devices, but somehow... it was more useful :-) 15:13:15 Guthur: well, intel got burned on marketing based on MHz :P 15:13:15 at one point there were tablet computers running some kind of Lisp and with MCL as their development environment 15:13:36 and they got killed because the tablet they were working on was going to be too expensive 15:13:55 so they scaled it down and Lisp did not ran on the small version anymore 15:14:24 but the market killed the small one years later 15:14:25 is that when apple ditched mcl itself? 15:14:56 Apple ditched all this stuff when Steve came back 15:15:12 MCL was already ditched or about when all the related projects got killed 15:15:20 like the Apple research lab 15:15:42 the Newton had its transition into a product before Steve came back 15:16:03 and the second generation (the MessagePad 2000) was pretty cool 15:16:43 but with killing the Newton, the whole 'dynamic language' was killed and Objective-C came in 15:16:52 C + Smalltalk 15:16:58 = Objective C 15:17:58 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-78-36-181-6.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 15:18:16 perhaps obj-c 2 (which now has GC built-in, right?) would be an interesting target language for a Lisp compiler 15:18:54 I'm pretty sure the MessagePad 21000 could have run the Dylan OS - it had a better CPU and more memory (4 Megabytes RAM) 15:19:23 2100 15:19:40 when i used to carry my newton around back in the early 90s, the main reaction i got from people was 'yes but what is it for?!'; the iphone, on the other hand, is a phone, and everyone needs a phone, so it's just a matter of convincing people that they need a fancy one 15:20:24 there is lots of fancy phones though 15:20:25 I took notes with it, had my calendar and address book on it and had it attached to the phone line 15:20:41 the 'personal organizer' 15:20:58 stuff which I moved around over various platforms 15:21:12 like 'Microsoft Office with its calendar and Notes' 15:21:14 my newton, i am quite sad to say, was smashed to smithereens when my friend left it on the roof of his car by mistake, and drove off at high speed 15:21:29 I still have two MessagePad 2100 15:21:50 but there is also an emulator which runs quite nicely 15:24:28 Xantoz [~hejhej@c-8db4e253.01-157-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 15:24:29 my iphone was also destroyed, when my daughter drowned it. all this gadget destruction at least causes me to buy a lot of new gadgets, hence my interest in software portability 15:24:48 ruediger_ [~quassel@188-23-177-109.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 15:24:55 I'm interested in floating and water proof gadgets 15:26:02 outdoor and sports use is the natural enemy of many modern gadgets 15:27:06 -!- ruediger [~quassel@188-23-189-57.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:27:30 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 15:29:29 -!- maxalwings [~user@196.12.155.152] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:32:11 -!- CyberBlue [~yong@111.167.14.202] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:32:35 tsuru [~user@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:33:09 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:33:19 -!- Orange1 [ircap@186.140.90.225] has left #lisp 15:34:29 lispm: yes - read your iBooks in the bath, if you dare! 15:35:03 ha, audio books maybe 15:36:26 the age of powerful PDAs came afaik with iPaq and StrongARM, didn't it? 15:37:38 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:37:51 the Strongarm was already in the MessagePad 2x00 15:38:00 and that was a huge win 15:38:43 -!- sepult [~levgue@xdsl-87-78-171-212.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:39:15 but the iPaq was a bit more powerful 15:39:27 newer Strongarm, more memory 15:40:41 joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #lisp 15:40:53 pity that we got WinCE instead of Linux, like the original project suggested (at least from what I dug up) 15:41:11 sepult [~levgue@xdsl-87-78-171-212.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:41:48 compaq afaik even had a linux rom image somewhere on FTP 15:42:28 -!- lacedaemon [~algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Quit: Valete!] 15:42:56 fe[nl]ix [~algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 15:43:41 -!- fe[nl]ix [~algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Client Quit] 15:45:42 fe[nl]ix [~algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 15:45:49 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-78-36-181-6.static.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:46:42 -!- c|mell [~cmell@cpc3-colc5-0-0-cust808.colc.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:47:06 hello 15:47:49 -!- antifuchs [~foobar@baker.boinkor.net] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 15:47:57 So are we going to see a new sbcl release today? 15:48:58 stassats`: You should include the reason for your change in the ChangeLog entry, like what kind of bug it addresses 15:49:07 %unary-round derive-type must be fixed. 15:49:23 tcr: what change do you mean? 15:50:02 i usually try to do so 15:50:12 the most recent one 15:50:37 antifuchs [~foobar@baker.boinkor.net] has joined #lisp 15:50:50 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 15:50:56 well, "/foo/bar" wasn't treated like a directory name 15:51:00 slyrus_ [~slyrus@207.189.195.44] has joined #lisp 15:51:14 I have no idea how you triggered that bug 15:51:31 i don't think it's a bug, actually 15:51:56 just it would be nicer this way 15:52:28 pkhuong: What is usually used to add a blocking operation to lock-free algorithm? Case du jour: sb-queue 15:52:38 leo2007 [~leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 15:53:24 I think we want a semaphore. 15:53:41 how many bits does SBCL use for tags? 15:53:52 Java's "event" class is what we want, and the best thing I can think of is semaphores, or maybe pipes if your OS sucks. 15:54:06 -!- fe[nl]ix [~algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:54:09 Dodek: up to 3/4 bits on 32/64 bit platforms. 15:54:18 pkhuong: ok, thanks 15:54:19 And then some more in the headers if appropriate. 15:54:36 Dodek: read the new sbcl-internals 15:55:00 pkhuong: Really? I don't particularly like semaphores: they're too powerful -- you have to look at actual usage to deduce what kind of semaphore it is. Also it seems overly expensive. 15:55:43 I think sun's JVM uses a pair of lock & condvar. 15:56:00 Dodek: But with fixnums, and especially the potential 31-bit-fixnum-hack on 32 bit platforms, the concept of # of tag bits doesn't really make that much sense. 15:56:10 stassats`: I think you should have mentioned slime-compile-file-options (which btw. should probably become a defcustom) 15:57:02 pkhuong: Well, I just implemented gates (two states, open closed, with operations open-gate, close-gate, wait-open-gate) -- at the moment using mutex, and cvar; but I do want to make it based on futexes on Linux because that's all you need 15:57:08 tcr: binary semaphore, wrap it in something and win. It's not like it's really performance sensitive: you'll only switch to scheduler-assisted waiting after a spin-looping period. 15:57:33 tcr: right, it doesn't seem to be documented at all 15:57:34 pkhuong: 31-bit-fixnum-hack? 15:57:41 pkhuong: where can i read about it? 15:57:52 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:58:00 Dodek: in nyef's mind. 15:58:08 stassats`: It seems totally ad-hoc; shouldn't it rather be an option for slime-lisp-implementations? 15:58:23 So you can have different fasl directories per implementation? 15:59:04 i don't now, i use it for all implementations, it recompiles each time anyway 15:59:17 demmeln [~Adium@dslb-094-216-053-039.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:59:24 the problem is if you're using implementations with the same fasl file extension 15:59:39 which I thought this is supposed to address in the first place ... 16:00:09 prxq [~mommer@f051068080.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:00:11 stassats`: Isn't this the place where C-c C-k stores fasls? 16:00:28 i understood, but i don't think this is a problem 16:00:44 tcr: it is 16:00:57 I don't follow you. What did you mean with "recompiles each time", and what's "this"? 16:01:36 -!- kwinz3 [kwinz@securewlan-236-051.pns.univie.ac.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:01:44 pkhuong: There's no winnage for me. There are waitqueues (god knows why they're named like that), then there's queue, and now I'm supposed to introduce another thing called queue... uhm 16:02:11 tcr: packages (: 16:02:13 tcr: it's not a problem that some implementations have the same extension, because C-c C-k will overwrite it anyway 16:02:15 -!- sepult [~levgue@xdsl-87-78-171-212.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:02:45 pkhuong: Really, I think sb-queue should support blocking itself; if you want it to use as some kind of mailbox/msg-queue you often need to wait for a new msg 16:02:59 please don't commit to sbcl-cvs, it's already enough of a pain already, I don't want to have to deal with conflicts too. 16:03:23 and swank:*fasl-pathname-function* would be more appropriate place to conditionalize on implementation 16:03:27 -!- madsy [~madsy@ti0207a340-0495.bb.online.no] has quit [Changing host] 16:03:27 madsy [~madsy@fu/coder/madsy] has joined #lisp 16:03:29 pkhuong: Was that to me? 16:03:39 no, just to everyone with commit access (: 16:03:42 c|mell [~cmell@cpc3-colc5-0-0-cust193.colc.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 16:04:32 stassats`: The problem is when you C-c C-k a file, then later reload the system with asdf 16:04:44 stassats`: it'll reload the fasl of the other implementation 16:04:48 -!- slyrus_ [~slyrus@207.189.195.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:04:54 ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 16:05:09 well, i have ABL for that 16:05:28 Yeah I wait for sbcl merging asdf again 16:05:52 stassats`: How does *fasl-p-fn* relate to slime-compile-file-options? 16:06:06 fe[nl]ix [~algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 16:06:13 howdy fe[nl]ix 16:06:23 tcr: if you want blocking, you can spin and then wait with a time-out. 16:06:34 hello tcr 16:06:41 It's gonna be hard to avoid race conditions that'd make unconditional timeouts correct. 16:06:47 tcr: it's called (funcall *fasl-pathname-function* input-file slime-compile-file-options) 16:06:59 instead of default processing of slime-compile-file-options 16:07:06 I *think* I had something with queue-based spin-locks and events, but it wasn't pretty. 16:07:38 tcr: will you come to the Berlin meeting in March ? 16:07:42 pkhuong: "wait" by what means? 16:07:53 i use a different directory for compilation to not clobber source trees 16:08:04 fe[nl]ix: There's a #lisp Wien meeting at 27th feb 16:08:04 tcr: semaphore, pipe, mutex/condvar... 16:08:19 futexes sort of fix that, but portability isn't, and I mainly develop on OS X (: 16:08:44 kwinz3 [kwinz@securewlan-236-051.pns.univie.ac.at] has joined #lisp 16:08:54 tcr: I know, but I'm undecided whether to go to both 16:09:55 pkhuong: Well I was looking for a kind of canonical data structure that can be used for that, and that can be implemented with futexes and lutexes. 16:10:08 lightweight 16:10:13 tcr: "events". 16:10:32 Right, I'll read up on those 16:10:37 -!- macdice [~user@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:11:10 lacedaemon [~algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 16:11:18 pkhuong: How do pthread-futexes.c and -lutexes.c relate, btw.? 16:11:43 -!- fe[nl]ix [~algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Killed (NickServ (GHOST command used by lacedaemon))] 16:11:49 -!- lacedaemon is now known as fe[nl]ix 16:13:48 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 16:13:54 -!- ChanServ [ChanServ@services.] has quit [shutting down] 16:13:56 tcr: re events, there's something in java's "ThreadSupport" class or something like that. 16:14:14 fe[nl]ix: I will just go to vienna; I don't have the money for both :-/ 16:14:26 hmmm 16:15:05 tcr: one implements futexes, the other lutexes. 16:15:06 I wonder in how far a Lisp meeting must be sponsored 16:15:32 pkhuong: Well, duh 16:16:03 Is sb-futex used anywhere at all? If so why? Is it supposed to replace lutexes? 16:16:32 -!- kwinz3 [kwinz@securewlan-236-051.pns.univie.ac.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:17:45 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-78-36-181-6.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 16:18:49 given a function object in CL, do I have access to its source code, i.e. the forms that make up the definition/body of the function? 16:18:52 -!- fe[nl]ix [~algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:19:01 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:19:26 RaceCondition: Not reliably; see function-lambda-expression 16:19:58 RaceCondition: You can shadow DEFUN, and store the source code somewhere else 16:19:59 sepult [~levgue@xdsl-87-78-171-212.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:20:00 tcr: ISTR some people running with emulated futexes instead of the default lutexes on fbsd. 16:20:25 tcr: the latter is a good idea 16:20:55 tcr: but where should I see function-lambda-expression? 16:20:58 RaceCondition: Well, that depends. What do you need it for? 16:21:09 RaceCondition: CLHS 16:21:14 well, I had a weird idea I thought whether I could implement or not 16:21:18 Geralt [~Geralt@p5B32DA11.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:21:18 -!- Geralt [~Geralt@p5B32DA11.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Changing host] 16:21:18 Geralt [~Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has joined #lisp 16:21:51 CLHS is the standard place to look for everything? 16:22:00 yes] 16:22:12 RaceCondition: For stuff defined in the ANSI standard yes 16:22:21 great 16:22:28 RaceCondition: for implementation-specific stuff, refer to your implementation's documentation 16:22:56 -!- c|mell [~cmell@cpc3-colc5-0-0-cust193.colc.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:24:08 OK, so function-lambda-expression is just... a toy, not for reliable stuff 16:24:53 it might be not a toy 16:25:43 RaceCondition: Largely depends on your implementation 16:26:04 I mean, for cross-platform purposes, it's not reliable 16:26:09 or is it? 16:26:21 It's meant for interactive uses. 16:28:27 ikki [~ikki@189.247.73.234] has joined #lisp 16:28:30 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 16:30:50 kwinz3 [~kwinz@115-198.swlan.wu-wien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 16:31:44 -!- urnthr [~James@c-98-226-156-13.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:31:59 mejja [~user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:32:43 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:32:50 fe[nl]ix [~algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 16:35:55 -!- housel [~nnnnnnnnn@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:35:57 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 16:36:18 austinh [~austinh@c-24-21-81-46.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:36:48 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@115-198.swlan.wu-wien.ac.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:37:21 c|mell [~cmell@cpc3-colc5-0-0-cust193.colc.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 16:40:07 -!- nunb [~nandan@59.178.177.197] has left #lisp 16:40:37 -!- myrkraverk` [~johann@85-220-122-114.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:41:13 myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp