21:41:18 ccl-logbot [n=ccl-logb@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 21:41:18 21:41:18 -!- names: ccl-logbot faux` dysinger ntd nvoorhies Shamwow erk kpreid roygbiv ace4016 Moop demmeln fe[nl]ix pavelludiq knobo` ``Erik eno__ dreish_ marioxcc Guthur varjag froydnj Athas Krystof AntiSpamMeta cods piso rbancroft antifuchs nicktastic lichtblau egn_ rlonstei1 rotty_ scode_ frontier1 rapacity beibmozoi codemonk1yx StanleyD Xof Borbus hohum wgl sytse deepfire xristos Orest^bnc minion phadthai smithzv aja guaqua Pepe_ tltstc spiaggia nareshov 21:41:18 -!- names: Adrinael mfo C-o-r-E hicx174 araujo lnostdal ianmcorvidae Elench jsnell majhool cmm abeaumont hdurer__ rread z0d fawxtin`` Retardedpope1 fihi09 xinming Spaghettini Yuuhi spec[away] ignas davazp LiamH rlarson82 hugod overdrive Maddas sellout kejsaren_ Guest69173 mattrepl tvaalen Zhivago tarbo_ rey_ lharc maskd nyef Draggor nullman p_l mncaudill mogunus blitz_ kleppari bdowning russell_ kiuma manituuuu milanj gz` Adamant slyrus_ saikatc mrsolo 21:41:18 -!- names: zbigniew sepult legumbre_ psc_bw dstatyvka gz Jasko myrkraverk` stassats billstclair nowhereman mikezor proq acrid faux grouzen wlr ikki Sumpen nipra_ pem luis` c|mell Fufie cvandusen bobbysmith007 rrice udzinari pkhuong Hun mishoo bgs100 ia Adlai daniel flatline spacebat trittweiler Summermute madnificent Edico serichsen Taggnostr eihrul mejja carlocci thatdavidmiller dmiles_afk yahooooo somnium rdd authentic anekos retupmoca Madsy |coyoes| 21:41:18 -!- names: ecraven billitch Bucciarati jyujin johs aking pragma_ ineiros highb qebab rootzlevel hoeq p8m joga lpolzer_ DrForr_ srcerer mtd rahul benny beach skeptomai sykopomp Vonunov Tordek rstandy plutonas thermal_ TR2N koollman dalkvist_ hypno lisppaste REPLeffect_ lemoinem Ginei_Morioka ironChicken hdurer_ wgl_ slather _3b dcrawford antoszka metasyntax weirdo kuwabara CrazyEddy stepnem Ralith stoop rullie koning_robot WhiteFlam yacin housel thijso 21:41:18 -!- names: mornfall pok EinarDogfin arbscht qsun fatalnix1995_ schme tsuru` tessier Xach holycow Computer mgr rares Dodek Lycurgus nasloc__ KatrinaTheLamia dek5 huangjs Khisanth robewald bfein sjbach fnordus nimred Aisling Buganini bakkdoor BrianRice kloeri chii prip _3b` vsync frodef pixel5 felipe specbot rsynnott krappie tic PissedNumlock ramus` herbieB Guest67387 guenthr foom esden cpt_nemo setheus_ bohanlon qidush_ clog_ acieroid mathrick dostoyev1ky 21:41:18 -!- names: blast_hardcheese emma fgtech metric jrockway vcgomes michaelw Patzy djinni` alexbobp rtoym zeroish joast dfox erg boyscared cataska r0bby j0ni l_a_m ski Fade Axioplase_ luis mle 21:42:35 Btw, how is a "double-tree" (as a reduction from octrees/quadtrees) called properly? 21:43:04 a binary tree 21:43:40 deepfire: that's what method combinations are for 21:43:58 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-92-209.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:44:17 segoe [n=sg@83.231.42.178] has joined #lisp 21:44:31 hi 21:44:54 hi 21:44:58 deepfire: most of the predefined non-standard combinations call all methods and combine the results using some aggregation function 21:46:58 rahul, my problem is at class hierarchy level, not gf-related. I get circularities in class precedence lists. 21:47:30 eh? 21:47:40 -!- knobo` [n=user@s0023-0003.dsl.start.no] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:48:02 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 21:48:06 deepfire: so you're trying to subclass a class that in turn subclasses you? 21:48:08 deepfire: So... you've got a class hierarchy that isn't a DAG? 23:25:34 ccl-logbot [n=ccl-logb@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 23:25:34 23:25:34 -!- names: ccl-logbot ASau hugod rme quek schaf sg roneau2005 michaeljaaka Nshag OmniMancer kidd dralston demmeln redline6561 lukjad007 Odin- dlowe m7d Soulman ltriant b4|hraban Jasko2 asdfasd gz` slash_ faux` dysinger ntd nvoorhies Shamwow erk kpreid roygbiv ace4016 fe[nl]ix pavelludiq ``Erik eno dreish_ marioxcc-AFK Guthur froydnj Krystof AntiSpamMeta cods piso rbancroft antifuchs nicktastic lichtblau egn_ beibmozoi rotty_ scode_ rlonstei1 frontier1 23:25:34 -!- names: rapacity codemonk1yx erg boyscared cataska r0bby j0ni l_a_m ski Fade Axioplase_ luis mle dfox joast zeroish rtoym alexbobp djinni` Patzy michaelw vcgomes jrockway metric fgtech emma blast_hardcheese dostoyev1ky mathrick acieroid clog_ qidush_ bohanlon setheus_ cpt_nemo esden foom guenthr Guest67387 herbieB ramus` PissedNumlock tic krappie rsynnott specbot felipe pixel5 frodef vsync _3b` prip chii kloeri BrianRice bakkdoor Buganini Aisling 23:25:34 -!- names: nimred fnordus sjbach bfein robewald Khisanth huangjs dek5 KatrinaTheLamia nasloc__ Lycurgus Dodek rares mgr Computer holycow Xach tessier tsuru` schme fatalnix1995_ qsun arbscht EinarDogfin pok mornfall thijso housel yacin WhiteFlam koning_robot rullie stoop Ralith stepnem CrazyEddy kuwabara weirdo metasyntax antoszka dcrawford _3b slather wgl_ hdurer_ ironChicken Ginei_Morioka lemoinem REPLeffect_ lisppaste hypno dalkvist_ koollman thermal_ 23:25:34 -!- names: plutonas rstandy Tordek Vonunov sykopomp skeptomai beach benny rahul mtd srcerer DrForr_ lpolzer_ joga p8m hoeq qebab highb ineiros pragma_ aking johs jyujin Bucciarati billitch ecraven |coyoes| Madsy retupmoca anekos authentic rdd somnium yahooooo dmiles_afk thatdavidmiller mejja eihrul Taggnostr serichsen madnificent Summermute trittweiler spacebat flatline daniel Adlai ia bgs100 Hun pkhuong udzinari rrice bobbysmith007 Fufie luis` pem nipra_ 23:25:34 -!- names: Sumpen ikki wlr grouzen acrid proq mikezor nowhereman billstclair stassats myrkraverk` gz dstatyvka psc_bw legumbre sepult zbigniew mrsolo saikatc slyrus_ Adamant milanj manituuuu tvaalen Zhivago tarbo_ rey_ lharc maskd nyef Draggor nullman p_l mncaudill mogunus blitz_ kleppari bdowning russell_ kiuma mattrepl kejsaren_ sellout Maddas overdrive rlarson82 LiamH davazp ignas mrSpec Yuuhi Spaghettini xinming fihi09 Retardedpope1 fawxtin`` z0d 23:25:34 -!- names: rread hdurer__ abeaumont cmm majhool jsnell Elench ianmcorvidae lnostdal araujo hicx174 C-o-r-E mfo Adrinael nareshov spiaggia tltstc Pepe_ guaqua aja smithzv phadthai minion Orest^bnc xristos deepfire sytse wgl hohum Borbus Xof StanleyD 23:26:28 konr [n=konrad@201.82.134.163] has joined #lisp 23:33:50 -!- milanj [n=milan@212.200.194.148] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:33:56 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:34:37 luis`: ping 23:35:13 -!- kidd [n=kidd@216.Red-88-16-64.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:35:58 -!- michaeljaaka [n=michael@167-mo6-7.acn.waw.pl] has quit [] 23:51:59 ccl-logbot [n=ccl-logb@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 23:51:59 23:51:59 -!- names: ccl-logbot whoppix rvirding Sikander konr ASau hugod quek schaf sg roneau2005 Nshag OmniMancer dralston demmeln redline6561 lukjad007 Odin- dlowe m7d ltriant b4|hraban Jasko2 asdfasd gz` slash_ faux` dysinger ntd nvoorhies Shamwow erk kpreid roygbiv ace4016 fe[nl]ix pavelludiq ``Erik eno dreish_ marioxcc-AFK Guthur froydnj Krystof AntiSpamMeta cods piso rbancroft antifuchs nicktastic lichtblau egn_ rlonstei1 beibmozoi rotty_ scode_ rapacity 23:51:59 -!- names: codemonk1yx frontier1 StanleyD Xof Borbus hohum wgl sytse deepfire xristos Orest^bnc minion phadthai smithzv aja guaqua Pepe_ tltstc spiaggia nareshov Adrinael mfo C-o-r-E hicx174 araujo lnostdal ianmcorvidae Elench jsnell majhool cmm abeaumont hdurer__ rread z0d fawxtin`` Retardedpope1 fihi09 xinming Spaghettini Yuuhi mrSpec LiamH rlarson82 overdrive Maddas sellout kejsaren_ mattrepl tvaalen Zhivago tarbo_ rey_ lharc maskd nyef Draggor nullman 23:51:59 -!- names: p_l mncaudill mogunus blitz_ kleppari bdowning russell_ kiuma manituuuu Adamant slyrus_ saikatc mrsolo zbigniew sepult legumbre psc_bw dstatyvka gz myrkraverk` stassats billstclair nowhereman mikezor proq grouzen wlr ikki Sumpen nipra_ pem luis` Fufie bobbysmith007 rrice udzinari pkhuong Hun bgs100 ia Adlai daniel flatline spacebat trittweiler Summermute madnificent serichsen Taggnostr eihrul mejja thatdavidmiller dmiles_afk yahooooo somnium 23:51:59 -!- names: rdd authentic anekos retupmoca Madsy |coyoes| ecraven billitch Bucciarati jyujin johs aking pragma_ ineiros highb qebab hoeq p8m joga lpolzer_ DrForr_ srcerer mtd rahul benny beach skeptomai sykopomp Vonunov Tordek rstandy plutonas thermal_ koollman dalkvist_ hypno lisppaste REPLeffect_ lemoinem Ginei_Morioka ironChicken hdurer_ wgl_ slather _3b dcrawford antoszka metasyntax weirdo kuwabara CrazyEddy stepnem Ralith stoop rullie koning_robot 23:51:59 -!- names: WhiteFlam yacin housel thijso mornfall pok EinarDogfin arbscht qsun fatalnix1995_ schme tsuru` tessier Xach holycow Computer mgr rares Dodek Lycurgus nasloc__ KatrinaTheLamia dek5 huangjs Khisanth robewald bfein sjbach fnordus nimred Aisling Buganini bakkdoor BrianRice erg boyscared cataska r0bby j0ni l_a_m ski Fade Axioplase_ luis mle dfox joast zeroish rtoym alexbobp djinni` Patzy michaelw vcgomes jrockway metric fgtech emma blast_hardcheese 23:51:59 -!- names: dostoyev1ky mathrick kloeri chii acieroid clog_ qidush_ bohanlon setheus_ cpt_nemo esden foom guenthr Guest67387 herbieB ramus` PissedNumlock tic krappie rsynnott specbot felipe prip _3b` vsync frodef pixel5 23:52:17 LiamH: is it there yet? Is it there yet? 23:52:27 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 23:52:32 Sikander: error: failed to push some refs to 'ssh://repo.or.cz/srv/git/gsll.git' 23:52:42 ! [rejected] master -> master (non-fast forward) 23:53:09 .. 23:53:20 Could it have something to do with the recent updates? 08:00:58 ccl-logbot [n=ccl-logb@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 08:00:58 08:00:58 -!- names: ccl-logbot srcerer_ Athas` _8david skeptomai|awa- Modius_ rread Adlai stassats splittist ganbold Axius ericjames serichsen nunb clog Original ASau huangjs mikezor_ manuel_ blandest ziga`` fgtech Reaver1 mishoo mogunus KatrinaTheLamia SandGorgon benny lnostdal sytse Kolyan mrSpec ztzg sohum H4ns khumba spradnyesh kleppari Retardedpope Vonunov antoszka envi^office QinGW Adamant legumbre Phoodus ace4016 OmniMancer redline6561 kpreid crink dang` 08:00:58 -!- names: oudeis aburrido stoop dstatyvka nullman Jasko colin__ Wombatzus loxs tmh coyo drewc lisppaste moocow luis` rlb3 ampleyfly kejsaren2 konr cipher ia rdd nowhere_man varjag Madsy mgr knobo blitz_ EinarDog1in jrockway daniel_ ecraven Fufie delYsid ljames Soulman naresh a-s r0bby vcgomes emma TR2N robewald_ dmiles_afk slyrus ski whoppix billstclair Axioplase yahooooo specbot minion majhool rbancroft C-o-r-E hohum_ ianmcorvidae rlonstein chrisdone 08:00:58 -!- names: Helheim Tordek Elench prip felipe esden foom yacin koning_robot koollman guenthr Demosthenes tufflax Patzy beach rullie fnordus PissedNumlock tic krappie rsynnott acieroid eihrul psc_bw spacebat_ bulibuta hicx174 rotty kloeri chii Ginei_Morioka lemoinem REPLeffect_ rey_ hdurer_ fatalnix1995 schme antifuchs thoolihan wlr araujo bakkdoor xinming ramus` s0ber scode jl_2 wgl rahul qed Adrinael_ Pavitra manituuuu djinni` wentbackward mathrick m4thrick 08:00:58 -!- names: antgreen Spaghettini gonzojive Computer cmatei liron holycow aja fihi09 herbieB udzinari lharc lukjad007 nyef CrazyEddy ve pixel5 alexbobp peddie sp0_of tessier gz j0ni Fade eno sykopomp mtd arbscht hoeq schaf froydnj AntiSpamMeta piso nicktastic egn rapacity codemonk1yx StanleyD Xof Borbus _deepfire xristos Orest^bnc guaqua Pepe_ tltstc spiaggia jsnell hdurer__ z0d Maddas tvaalen Zhivago tarbo_ maskd Draggor p_l mncaudill bdowning russell_ 08:00:58 -!- names: zbigniew myrkraverk` pkhuong madnificent authentic anekos retupmoca Bucciarati jyujin johs aking ineiros highb p8m DrForr_ dalkvist_ _3b dcrawford kuwabara housel thijso mornfall pok qsun Lycurgus nasloc__ dek5 Khisanth bfein sjbach nimred Aisling Buganini BrianRice dostoyevsky blast_hardcheese metric michaelw joast dfox erg boyscared cataska l_a_m luis mle 08:01:03 Original, hit up PCL and get yourself set up with CCL or a free trial of ACL or LispWorks, and you'll see soon enough (round about chapter 9 of PCL) that this is a powerful tool 08:01:04 minion, tell Original about PCL 08:01:04 Original: look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 08:01:06 if you want to write code, youcould be writing some now 08:01:06 -!- skeptomai|awa- is now known as skeptomai|away 08:01:11 im on closure site 08:01:13 although it could just be with the custom body-velocity method, so I don't know :\ 08:01:16 Original, you can find CCL at ccl.clozure.com 08:01:17 ``Erik [i=Here@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:01:19 sykopomp: i'm not sure, but it just feels so 08:01:25 stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 08:01:25 george__ [n=george@189.107.129.109] has joined #lisp 08:01:35 adn if you are on irc researching a language for a 'massive project' i'm starting to feel sorry for your funders 08:02:19 holycow: I get the impression he passed troll status a while ago now. 08:02:19 setheus [n=setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:02:23 joga [i=joga@rikki.fi] has joined #lisp 08:02:24 indeed 08:02:27 Original, CCL is much more than a hobby implementation, it has a company (Clozure Associates) that has been developing it for many years (over a decade, I think) 08:02:37 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-82-81-3-167.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 08:02:48 and it has roots in MCL 08:02:52 pragma_ [n=pragma@blackshell.com] has joined #lisp 08:02:53 qidush [n=qidush@c83-252-27-42.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 08:03:03 slather [n=slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has joined #lisp 08:03:04 cods [n=cods@tuxee.net] has joined #lisp 08:03:14 stassats, bear in mind that recordmydesktop has been screwy for sykopomp, so the recording isn't precise 08:03:15 qebab [i=finnrobi@caracal.stud.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 08:03:17 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.49.189] has joined #lisp 08:03:20 phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 08:03:20 -!- pragma_ is now known as Guest73595 08:03:22 stassats: does MCL have roots in MacLisp (other than just the CL root) 08:03:22 -!- rread [n=rread@72-254-98-222.client.stsn.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:03:24 ahaas [n=ahaas@c-71-59-145-125.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:03:42 sykopomp: i don't know, but i wouldn't think so 08:04:06 mac in maclisp didn't have anything to do with macintosh 08:04:27 sykopomp, no, it doesn't 08:04:31 MacLisp is from a project at MIT 08:04:40 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Excess Flood] 08:05:08 sykopomp: some history on the sidebar: http://www.clozure.com/clozurecl.html 08:05:10 Tristam [n=Tristam@cpe-72-226-127-57.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:05:14 stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 08:05:22 rread [n=rread@72-254-98-222.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 08:05:48 clisp looks interesting 08:06:25 Original, clisp is very nice and some people swear by it, but it's also less performant than CCL, which runs on Windows too. 08:06:44 clisp could be good for getting started, though 08:06:55 -!- cods [n=cods@tuxee.net] has quit [Killed by sagan.freenode.net (Nick collision)] 08:06:57 cods_ [n=cods@tuxee.net] has joined #lisp 08:06:57 -!- setheus [n=setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Killed by sagan.freenode.net (Nick collision)] 08:06:58 -!- qebab [i=finnrobi@caracal.stud.ntnu.no] has quit [Killed by sagan.freenode.net (Nick collision)] 08:06:58 -!- joga [i=joga@rikki.fi] has quit [Killed by sagan.freenode.net (Nick collision)] 08:07:01 cmm- [n=cmm@82.81.3.167] has joined #lisp 08:07:01 lpolzer_ [n=lpolzer@88.73.229.239] has joined #lisp 08:07:01 saikatc [n=saikatc@98.210.192.23] has joined #lisp 08:07:01 Modius [n=Modius@70.123.130.159] has joined #lisp 08:07:01 metasyntax [n=taylor@75.149.208.121] has joined #lisp 08:07:01 trittweiler [n=tcr@131.159.18.243] has joined #lisp 08:07:01 Drakeson [n=user@69.196.172.71] has joined #lisp 08:07:01 lichtblau [n=user@port-92-195-56-124.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:07:01 joga [i=joga@unaffiliated/joga] has joined #lisp 08:07:01 cpt_nemo [i=cpt_nemo@saga.ftbfs.de] has joined #lisp 08:07:01 setheus [n=setheus@70.116.140.134] has joined #lisp 08:07:01 Taggnostr [n=x@86.50.68.11] has joined #lisp 08:07:01 cods [n=cods@82.241.80.108] has joined #lisp 08:07:01 qebab [i=finnrobi@129.241.56.185] has joined #lisp 08:07:01 srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 08:07:01 ironChicken [n=nnrichar@mx.lurk.org] has joined #lisp 08:07:01 _3b` [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:07:02 joga_ [i=joga@rikki.fi] has joined #lisp 08:07:06 qeb`away [i=finnrobi@caracal.stud.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 08:07:07 -!- cpt_nemo [i=cpt_nemo@saga.ftbfs.de] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 08:07:07 -!- setheus [n=setheus@70.116.140.134] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 08:07:08 -!- qebab [i=finnrobi@129.241.56.185] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 08:07:08 -!- Guest73595 is now known as pragma_ 08:07:08 setheus [n=setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:07:38 -!- cmm- [n=cmm@82.81.3.167] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 08:07:45 I know usocket, and write-byte and write-line, exist. Is there a write-integer? which layer deals with things like network byte order? what string encoding does write-line use? is there some package on top of usocket that makes sending network data simpler? is there some crucial bit of info I'm missing? 08:07:51 -!- metasyntax [n=taylor@75.149.208.121] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:07:55 lpolzer [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-229-239.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 08:07:58 -!- lpolzer_ [n=lpolzer@88.73.229.239] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 08:08:06 -!- cods [n=cods@82.241.80.108] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:08:10 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-92-195-56-124.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 08:08:11 -!- joga [i=joga@unaffiliated/joga] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:08:12 -!- srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 08:08:13 -!- Taggnostr [n=x@86.50.68.11] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:08:14 you tried newLISP? 08:08:17 -!- Drakeson [n=user@69.196.172.71] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:08:28 it's not a lisp implementation. It's a different language. 08:08:31 -!- Modius [n=Modius@70.123.130.159] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 08:08:33 Original, I think newLISP is far from what you want 08:08:36 Original: you are joking, right? 08:08:43 no why 08:08:45 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 08:08:51 it's a scripting language 08:08:51 *sykopomp* keeps falling into the troll's trap :( 08:09:02 it says its lisp 08:09:09 it seems to be that you'd find a compiled CL implementation such as CCL more appealing 08:09:09 Original: try BEE lisp or Allegro CL express edition 08:09:09 for mac linux and win 08:09:21 borism [n=boris@213-35-232-204-dsl.end.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 08:09:29 #lisp is about Common Lisp, Original .. there's #scheme for Scheme and #clojure for Clojure .. etc. etc. 08:09:31 i say stick with .net and go away 08:09:35 borism_ [n=boris@213-35-232-204-dsl.end.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 08:09:45 yoru entire endeavour here isn't even marginally usefull to your goal 08:09:47 Original, "Lisp" is a whole family of languages. We use Common Lisp, which is the best variant (if you ask us) 08:10:07 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Excess Flood] 08:10:27 -!- bulibuta [n=bulibuta@unaffiliated/bulibuta] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:10:34 stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 08:10:34 ugh, now theres a family of lisp languages ontop of a million different interperters thats all do different stuff 08:10:38 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 08:10:40 no 08:10:47 you know what lisp needs, uniformity 08:10:54 Original: and all that for just a handful of toe nail clippings 08:10:54 Original: remember that list of languages you spewed earlier? 08:10:55 there is just a windows coder that doesn't understand 08:11:01 that's basically "the C family of languages" 08:11:02 cpt_nemo [i=cpt_nemo@saga.ftbfs.de] has joined #lisp 08:11:02 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:11:03 Original: lisp really needs you to shut up and do some research 08:11:04 no, what you need is a clue 08:11:34 holycow is trolling because I offended his linux roots 08:11:37 whats your excuse? 08:11:43 please, go away 08:11:49 Original: complaining about lisp being a family of languages is like complaining that there are too many C derivatives because C and Python are too similar :) 08:11:58 good morning 08:12:10 careful, thats more words in a sentence than he can parse 08:12:15 python is far from being similar to c 08:12:24 Original: newLISP is far from being similar to CL. 08:12:28 holycow 1 more and your ignored 08:12:37 10 minutes of your crap is more than enough 08:12:39 thanks 08:12:40 Python is more similar to C than an old sock. 08:12:40 lol, awww, hurt your feelings? 08:12:45 These are not useful comparisons. 08:12:51 just isn't necessary 08:12:53 metasyntax [n=taylor@75-149-208-121-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 08:13:05 holycow: hey, be nice. nobody's perfect :) 08:13:15 all he has to do is try to understand 08:13:19 just 'try' 08:13:27 and indeed 08:13:34 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229081015.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:13:42 Original, actually, newLISP and CL are about as different as C and Python. Really. 08:13:45 If newLisp does what you want, then that's great. 08:14:47 lispworks looks good 08:15:14 -!- boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:15:27 if you can't handle simple facts or answers to your questions without having a mental overload (yes; the world _is huuuge_) then perhaps programming big projects isn't for you (and yeah, even linux; this is freenode, remember -- isn't for you either ..) :P 08:15:44 Original: in case it wasn't clear: #lisp talks about Common Lisp, which is a (well, the best, clearly) dialect of lisp. There are many lisps available, just as there are many algol-descendents. Besides that: most lispers write libraries as they go. You may win the time it took you to wrote the library back, when the language allows you to be much more expressive 08:16:24 there's no need to go all *wave arms* for this .. yes, most here use linux .. yes, there are several CL implementations (but a _single_ standard) .. yes there are several lisp dialects (but this channel is about common lisp) .. 08:16:31 minion: tell Original about Common Lisp Implementation 08:16:32 Original: please see Common Lisp Implementation: Free Common Lisp implementations and their *features*. http://www.cliki.net/Common%20Lisp%20Implementation 08:17:11 ha .. we said almost the same thing there, madnificent 08:17:20 A 32-bit 'Hello World' console application can be as small as 3-4MB on disk, depending on platform 08:17:21 wtf! 08:17:33 sigh... 08:17:37 Original, also, there are many libraries for Common Lisp that do INTERESTING things. Granted, if you want to speak .NET protocol xyz over an abc connection to a foo SOAP server, you might be shit outta luck. 08:17:43 that's madness 08:17:52 original: So, pick another implementation ... 08:17:56 Adlai: SOAP exists for common lisp, I think... drewc knew all about it :) 08:18:02 Original, Common Lisp is not for writing Hello World applications. 08:18:04 Common Lisp is for building organisms. 08:18:06 A 64-bit 'Hello World' console application can be as small as 6.5-7.5MB on disk 08:18:11 incredible 08:18:14 that's madness 08:18:20 Original: no, it is not... actually :) That is to say: your hello world application contains a repl, which allows you to calculate stuff :) 08:18:36 -!- Axius [n=ade@92.84.11.105] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:18:44 Original, did you even stop to consider why this is the case? .. please stop waving your arms; no one here consider this a real problem 08:18:58 I know what the reason is 08:18:59 madnificent, yes, but I'm not aware of a CL implementation of .NET protocol xyz... although maybe RDNZL supports it! 08:19:00 lol 08:19:06 original: So, what is the reason? 08:19:09 this is kind of entertaining 08:19:16 watching his brain explode like a bag of popcorn 08:19:17 hehe 08:19:21 Original, I'll say it again -- Common lisp is NOT for writing hello-world apps. 08:19:22 Original: besides that: haskell provides you with even bigger binaries, and most of the data is a fixed overhead. That means that you loose the first few megabytes, but the binary grows like in C-like languages for other things you do. 08:19:26 it tosses all its crap in ahead of time, kinda like delphi, the size doesnt increase incremently like that afterwards 08:19:33 but it still being that size is ridiculous 08:19:47 original: So, pick another implementation. 08:20:31 zhivago people say this the best one for windows 08:20:32 :( 08:21:01 welcome to the world of no one gives a fuck 08:21:02 lol 08:21:21 I told you once more didn't I? 08:21:24 goodbye holycow 08:21:33 *oooo* 08:21:44 heh 08:22:00 windows users, a little bellow retarded. hey, so tell us what happened, #efnet didn't want you either? 08:22:47 Original: tell me, why are you interested in CL? 08:23:21 because its the 1 language I haven't touched on, yet hear a lot about from geeks 08:23:31 like it's the greatest thing ever since slice bread 08:23:41 so i'm here to find out what makes it so great 08:24:05 Original: well, it is great because of the constructs the language gives you to express what your program is doing 08:24:05 unfortunately, there is no cure for dumbass 08:24:07 Original, check out http://piano.aero/ 08:24:13 yes, that's a URL :) 08:24:14 hm, haskell and erlang and many more is also missing from your previously mentioned list 08:24:56 Original: I think my favorite part of CL is the fact that you don't know it. 08:24:57 :D 08:25:08 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 08:25:10 haha 08:25:21 Original: so, it allows to define your application on a higher level. The low-level machine-stuff is possible (yes, really!) in lisp (it does everything, if you search a bit) but it generally is special because of its macro's. 08:25:31 the smugness; it's infinite :) 08:26:18 you guys written anything big in it? 08:26:53 did you see http://wiki.alu.org/RtL%20Highlight%20Film .. wrt. your question "what makes it so great", Original ? .. also the first chapter in the PCL book talks about this; http://gigamonkeys.com/book/introduction-why-lisp.html .. there really is no point wasting time on IRC wrt. this 08:26:54 Original: lisp allows you to constantly redefine the available constructs in the language, to fit your application's needs. That may sound a bit like an intoxicated coder, but it works really simple (and transparent!) whilst you're working in it 08:27:37 mad: Only until you compile a file :) 08:27:37 boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:27:49 Original: there are rather big projects written in lisp. Examples include control systems of nuclear power plants. I've written a POS system in it, there are many many other projects available 08:27:56 -!- setheus [n=setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:27:59 Zhivago: ? 08:28:17 Zhivago: oh, yeah well... if you have a repl, you can toy around :) 08:28:17 Haven't you read about the constraints upon redefinition that compile-file imposes? 08:28:29 Original, google for ITA 08:28:58 Zhivago: no, actually... I haven't. I didn't mean constantly redefine in that way anyways, but I guess I should read it 08:29:00 madnificent: repl on a nuclear power plant should be fun 08:29:23 I think that for a nuclear power-plant I'd prefer haskell. 08:29:40 isn't Ada used for stuff like that? 08:29:40 stassats, well they've had REPLs 100 million miles away on $100M hardware... 08:29:49 heh 08:29:50 dmiles pasted "found my merge of the lisp vm and prolog vm" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/90565 08:29:54 true enough 08:30:04 stassats: available restarts: [0] Continue meltdown [1] Restart meltdown [2] Shout out to lisp code [3] Alien power magick dust all-problem-solver 08:30:12 Or, maybe not, given its hard to predict latencies. 08:30:17 madnificent: hehehehe! 08:30:59 cool 08:31:04 unfortunately i don't have too much patience for windows coders 08:31:10 it takes them so long to unlearn so much 08:31:13 Zhivago: lisp's garbage collector may run too... however for all time-critical RT things, dedicated controllers are used (at least, I may hope so in a nuclear power plant) 08:31:26 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 08:31:29 madnificent, conforming programs are encouraged to make an ABORT restart available... 08:31:32 madnificent: Well, I wasn't going to suggest lisp, either. 08:31:50 I was thinking more along the lines of Coq generated assembly. 08:32:00 Original: if you're interested into languages (like I used to be) you may want to look at lisp... ensure you think you understand it all, believe it is crap. Come back a year later to learn it all again, and hopefully understand what you've been missing out on in the past 08:32:10 Adlai: condition MELTDOWN is a subclass of condition PROGRAM-ERROR 08:32:14 what now, bitch?! 08:32:19 UH UH 08:32:25 Anyhow, there are real-time GCs, so ... 08:32:59 dmiles: How is opencyc doing? 08:33:11 Zhivago: the problem is that you don't know when it will run (at least not if you don't know the implementation it will run on... which they probably know) 08:33:25 madnificent if its so great howcome google, microsoft etc haven't picked it up? most amazing languages that have with visual studios, google uses python alot, php obvious a biggy, c is without question by countless 08:33:26 -!- rread [n=rread@72-254-98-222.client.stsn.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:33:33 madnificent: Given a real-time GC, I know exactly when it will run. 08:33:44 Original: because of people like you. 08:33:46 clearly 08:33:53 people like me? 08:33:56 in any case, Peter Norvig works for Google. 08:33:57 Original: well, there has been the AI winter, for which lisp took the blame (not correct). And really, where are you going to find lisp programmers? 08:33:57 madnificent: Generally it is at the point of memory allocation. 08:34:16 Original: a stupid question about the same thing: Do you believe in God? 08:34:20 Zhivago: opencyc.. ok.. researchcyc.. better larkc.. even better 08:34:23 Original: you are an idiot. That was a non-sequitur. 08:34:28 Original, you have to invest a bit of time to learning CL before you can appreciate its power 08:34:41 The fact of the matter is that most of the people doing interesting work have moved to haskell or java or ... 08:34:43 Original: php is a 'biggy' at google? 08:34:47 Adlai: like a couple of years 08:35:01 Many of the advantages of CL have diminished as the rest of the world has caught up. 08:35:03 what's with the constant flaming? perhaps it's not people like me, but people like you, i'm asking legit questions 08:35:04 Zhivago: people do interesting work in haskell? I thought haskell was just for mathematicians and wankers. 08:35:05 Zhivago: i am working on making cyc store its rules in a ffi prolog database 08:35:09 Original: if you hope to learn don't say silly things, or at least, phrase them better! 08:35:15 Original: no you're not. 08:35:19 original: You are one of the people doing the flaming. 08:35:28 rread [n=rread@72-254-98-222.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 08:35:29 stassats, I don't think that's always true 08:35:32 original: Stop throwing tantrums, and ask sensible questions. 08:35:32 Original: I was serious: do you believe in god? 08:35:39 Zhivago: is it can hit prolog unification when needed 08:35:46 Original, how come Britney Spears sells more music than ..? 08:35:58 Original: python has unicorns, rails are strewn with roses. All we have is a dead horse that smells. It's not nice, is it? So go away. 08:36:02 lnostdal: isn't she virtually dead yet? or something like that? 08:36:02 Original, (i meant _good_ artist .. obviously) 08:36:08 i'm not flaming i'm asking questions about the language, and you're responding with personal attacks, you know what that says? alot 08:36:12 stassats: CL is the first language I really learned. I was quite happy with it after only a couple of months :) 08:36:12 dmiles: Cool. 08:36:18 nunb: :) the lisp defense-mechanism against.... 08:36:25 Original: I'm not giving you a personal attack! I'm trying to show something! 08:36:25 madnificient: depends.. how is the corn growing this year? 08:36:27 original: Stop whining and learn how to spell "a lot". 08:36:28 *holycow* refills the popcorn 08:36:32 you might need several years to know the hyperspec in and out, I guess, but you can most certainly build useful things way before that. 08:36:34 madnificent, one could hope .. heh :) 08:36:41 lnostdal: :P 08:37:01 Original: Beware of the newbs. 08:37:26 sykopomp: and in the meantime someone on irc will say "hey, it could be written in a one line instead of 10" 08:37:30 look you may all feel like you're superior to none lisp coders, that's fine, but what i'm saying is, if its so great how come it's not more readily backed by a heavyweight, keep in mind even 08:37:33 sykopomp, bullshit, Sheeple wasn't useful until I sprinkled magic mold dust all over it 08:37:36 dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:37:41 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 08:37:48 Original: again: do you believe in god... I'm going to show you why not 08:37:53 though I make a lot more money than you, know a lot more languages than you, are most likely a lot more educated, you're still apparently smarter than me 08:38:00 Adlai: screw you, it's still not useful. Your mold dust is also memory-leaky. 08:38:02 I don't know lisp, that's why i'm here askin questions 08:38:02 Original: but you need to answer, because it doesn't make sense otherwise :) 08:38:04 original: Oh, stop whining. 08:38:14 original: Your ego problems are of no interest. 08:38:27 it's not my ego that's in question 08:38:29 obviously 08:38:36 stassats, if the student has the right approach, he will embrace the learning opportunity... 08:38:36 hahahaha 08:38:40 original: Then stop talking about it, and start asking sensible questions. 08:38:41 Original: you're hilarious. 08:38:48 ah man, dumbass keeps on digging. hows it feel Original? 08:38:53 i know you are still reading 08:39:05 Original, I think ITA and Lyssys count as heavyweights 08:39:12 Original, face it; most people (programmers too) are stupid .. and in particular the ones making (backing type) decisions are even more stupid/clueless .. ref. my analogy it is harder to play jazz music (programmers), and it is harder to sell jazz music (decision makers/sellers) 08:39:19 why hasn't a heavyweight, who's picked up every other language on the planet hasn't touched lisp is a sensible question? 08:39:20 Original: also: #lisp has a strange way of interacting with people... we pose more exact questions than in most other channels. And discussions are rarely this far from CL... so expect to have a hard time... flaming back to users also doesn't help (even though we make fun of newcomers from time to time, that'll change as you go :)) 08:39:26 Original: you are not going to get answers to questions you don't research beforehand. go see cliki 08:39:39 calling the world stupid, isn't really a good response 08:39:40 This is entertaining, but will someone chuck Original out? I just read the backlog, he's trolling, pure and simple.. 08:39:41 :\ 08:39:42 original: And what is a 'heavyweight' here? The DARPA? 08:39:45 Taggnostr [n=x@dyn57-11.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 08:39:50 Original: why don't you respond to anyone asking you anything here? 08:40:03 seconding nunb 08:40:05 Original: afaict right now, you're just being pissed because you want to be pissed? 08:40:10 Zhivago: google, microsoft, ibm, intel, delphi etc... 08:40:12 *nunb* reaches for the Laphroaig, but it's a little early for entertainment 08:40:18 Original: has your wife left you or anything? child been killed... something like that 08:40:21 Original: are you bill gates? 08:40:46 so even you're trollin now? 08:40:50 -!- nunb [n=nundan@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has left #lisp 08:40:53 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 08:40:58 original: Interestingly, ibm did make a lisp. 08:40:59 MS has used Lisp and Haskell 08:41:01 Original: Mozilla? Yahoo? ITA? NASA? Your Mom? Any of those ring a bell? 08:41:01 Original: you don't respond to my questions... and you keep spamming... why shouldn't I troll back 08:41:04 Original: look what you did 08:41:13 IIRC so has Intel 08:41:15 this is where I am allowed to troll... I virtually live here :) 08:41:17 original: However, there's a simple answer -- lisp is not good for bad programmers. 08:41:18 What's new in the Lisp world? 08:41:18 ok, great, why couldn't you just say that the first 3 times I asked about it? 08:41:23 why you need to troll me? 08:41:32 Original: social questions (why is X popular? why did corporation Y do Z?) do not have technical answers. Why is Dan Brown popular? Why doesn't Google fix Google Groups? 08:41:34 Original: you're being a wanker :) 08:41:40 original: It gives too much help in writing extremely weird code. 08:41:45 Original: because you don't answer my question... and you keep asking the same question which I'm trying to answer :) 08:41:51 it's a lot easier just to give a reasonable answer to a reasonable question instead of trying to be funny with your nerd rage 08:41:52 Original: will we try again? 08:41:54 cause you're not. 08:42:02 original: As opposed to java, which is a lovely language for corporate developers. 08:42:03 -!- rread [n=rread@72-254-98-222.client.stsn.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:42:07 splittist++ 08:42:16 Original: will wy try to solve your question again? 08:42:20 Original: assembly is a pretty shitty language to write anything but tow strlens in. 08:42:22 in a humane manner :) 08:42:29 original: So, you've gotten over the screaming and rolling on the floor over binary sizes, then? 08:42:34 Original: seriously. What have you ever coded in assembly? A message box? 08:42:37 or better yet, incf :) 08:42:44 People give him a break. 08:42:50 (incf tcr) 08:42:54 and me too 08:42:59 tcr: but I am willing to honoustly answer his question 08:43:03 snr is crying 08:43:18 skyopomp that's a common misconception but entirely wrong, masm macro capabilities are insane, and considering all I need to do is include a dll, then call its function, on a single line, no defining 08:43:26 i'd say it's a lot easier than lisp atm 08:43:30 masm? I thought this was #lisp. 08:43:33 rread [n=rread@72-254-98-222.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 08:43:35 guess how large my executables on linux and win are? 1kb 08:43:38 Original: I don't believe you. ASM is garbage. Why doesn't everyone just write everything in ASM? 08:43:38 not 3mbs 08:43:38 nunb [n=nundan@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 08:43:51 I don't want to have to write 10k lines of code just so I can say hello world. 08:44:05 skyopomp cause they're scared of "low level" but masm provides lot of high level stuff 08:44:07 I don't think you actually know assembly, either. I think you'er full of it. 08:44:16 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 08:44:17 I'm not afraid of the low level. I just value my time. 08:44:19 Original: that has been answered before... don't keep talking about it... that is trolling :) 08:44:22 not only do I know it, i've created an entire SDK 08:44:32 you? 08:44:33 thought so 08:44:35 to do what? count to 10? 08:44:38 hahaha 08:44:38 (an SDK for ASM, isn't that like doing nothing?) 08:44:39 original: I guess that you haven't, yet. 08:44:43 ah man, this just gets better 08:44:52 the dude that created the masm sdk DOESN'T know about lisp 08:44:52 no full blow GUI applications with hybrid 32bit/64bit code 08:45:00 all these years later, he's never even googled it 08:45:02 wow 08:45:04 Original: full blown GUI? 08:45:05 drivers, directx, com, winsock etc... 08:45:08 original: How exciting for you. 08:45:08 yes 08:45:10 Original: so you wrote an SDK that pops up message boxes? 08:45:12 that sounds badass. 08:45:14 if he actually worked on windows, explains a lot 08:45:16 someone should just end this or something .. *sigh* .. this is just painful and funny to watch at the same time x) 08:45:16 it must have taken you an eternity. 08:45:20 original: Why should we care? 08:45:22 I bet my apps run a lot faster than anything you could write in lisp 08:45:25 and are smaller 08:45:35 lisp even support mmx? sse2+ 08:45:37 doubt it 08:45:37 so how do we get the attention of ops? this really has gone long enough? 08:45:39 Original: i bet the opposite. 08:45:40 Original, can you do Aspect-Oriented Programming in masm? 08:45:46 Do you want him banned? 08:45:46 probably 08:45:49 this calls for a /kick 08:45:51 Original: I heard ASM is for people that like to pretend they're programming, but really just want to type a lot to write very inane things. Is this true? 08:46:01 i'm not evil. i think a good kick is enough 08:46:02 Do I hear a second? 08:46:04 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:46:05 sigh, flames are not fun 08:46:08 *nunb* seconds 08:46:10 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Zhivago 08:46:12 why are you even considering lisp and other languages, then, Original ? 08:46:13 Original: please answer my question. I am honestly curious. 08:46:13 Original: social issues 08:46:17 nice, support the trolls 08:46:18 ban the winner 08:46:20 good plan 08:46:26 -!- Zhivago [n=zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has been kicked from #lisp 08:46:31 Notice that you people yourself made him so defensive. 08:46:32 damn. I was on a roll :( 08:46:45 tcr: nah, he was being a douchebag. 08:46:58 #lisp is cannot resist trolls 08:47:04 Original, SBCL supports SSE 08:47:05 it's true. They're too much fun. 08:47:09 well i fall into that category indeed 08:47:10 There was considerable immaturity from all directions. 08:47:13 -!- cods_ is now known as cods 08:47:14 Adlai: too late 08:47:25 Zhivago: Indeed. 08:48:50 i won't defend my self. someone of his supposed caliber should have easily slipped into sbcl and really asked some good questions 08:49:09 bleh, my connection had to be choppy just then. 08:49:14 I personally think he deserves points for trolling so well. 08:49:21 *Adlai* grumbles about wireless internet and fades away 08:49:39 he wasn't bad at all. somew 08:49:48 argh, premature C-m :( 08:50:06 considering that you still discuss him 08:50:10 -!- Retardedpope [n=Retarded@c-66-56-9-145.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 08:50:24 imagine what the follow-up would be; "Emacs!? ..are you insane! .. that's like, old!" 08:50:35 someone once told me, when you are arguing with 'retards', they will take you down to their level and kill you with exp 08:50:36 -!- _8david [n=user@port-92-195-56-124.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (devel) (IRC client for Emacs)"] 08:50:58 lichtblau [n=user@port-92-195-56-124.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:50:58 when you wrassle a pig, the pig has fun and you get dirty 08:51:12 clhs exp 08:51:12 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_exp_e.htm 08:51:16 ^ with that? 08:51:17 that's better 08:51:31 the psychology here is interesting 08:51:37 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-92-195-56-124.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:51:43 sykopomp: i'd guess exp in this context means experience collected in some mmorpg 08:51:45 stassats: I might have some time today for looking into slime-isearch-system / slime-query-replace-system 08:51:57 here == previous guest 08:52:03 lichtblau [n=user@port-92-195-56-124.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:53:04 tcr: i'll later commit a faster version of asdf-determine-system 08:55:31 social and technical issues, so hard distinguish from each other. it seems to be even harder to keep to one of those. and off course, regularly you run into people who have never even thought that social issues might even affect the language choice 08:55:56 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:56:34 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 08:56:53 Dodek [n=dodek@156.17.1.251] has joined #lisp 08:57:58 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590d2b20.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:58:06 -!- ljames [n=ln@unaffiliated/ljames] has quit [] 08:58:29 -!- khumba [n=khumba@S0106001e2ac2d18e.ok.shawcable.net] has left #lisp 09:01:14 It's pretty easy to convince if you do not immediately go havoc at them. 09:01:27 badipod [n=badipod@110.32.140.61] has joined #lisp 09:01:49 guaqua: i feel the sam way. that is an excellent point. 09:01:49 Original [i=187db297@gateway/web/freenode/x-zayhraybbrsgyimt] has joined #lisp 09:01:50 tcr: really, it wasn't that immediate. It's pretty easy to be treated with respect if you don't come into a channel picking a fight :) 09:01:54 -!- crink [n=crink@unaffiliated/crink] has quit ["Leaving."] 09:02:42 don't justify your trolling and personal attacks on me, for something I did, I asked simple questions 09:02:52 original: Please stop whining. 09:02:53 none the less those who helped me outside the channel, thankyou 09:03:03 it's refreshing to know not all are bad seeds 09:03:07 i really do love exploring this complexity and trying to understand it. in that context it is always simultaneously interesting and frustrating to run into those that only know monoculture and a singular perspective on a complex system (usually an emphasis on economics alone as the key motivator) 09:03:07 oh god the thing is back. 09:03:18 It's a human fallacy to associate popularity with quality. In general, that psychological shortcut works. 09:03:33 (except when it isn't, of course) 09:04:35 I wasn't asserting popularity equaled of higher quality, I was making a point that higher demand has merit and reasoning, which *can be based off quality, we're not talking about the general population 09:04:36 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181150041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 09:04:46 morning 09:05:00 but programmers who whether you want to accept it or not, could be more intelligent than you... 09:05:16 aaaand the trolling continues 09:05:26 aren't on this train, I was asking why 09:05:26 morning Xof. sbcl-10 a fabulous success? 09:05:30 original: Again, please stop whining. 09:05:40 Original: perhaps, if you're serious, you could adjust your approach to be a little more respectful. 09:05:41 well, I don't know yet. The registration list is looking good 09:05:42 Original: There was a time where Lisp was very popular. But the industry that used Lisp couldn't hold its (from our perspective, ridiculous) promises. 09:05:49 it would look better if the ditherers actually confirmed :-) 09:05:58 heh 09:06:04 what promises would that be tcr? 09:06:05 then of course I actually have to make it happen 09:06:14 Original: the AI winter happened. Well, both of them did. 09:06:16 Original: Strong AI, machine capable of human thinking 09:06:18 Xof: small matter of organizing! 09:06:22 and Lisp got blamed. 09:06:55 it's not so much the blaming, rather the funding cuts (: 09:06:58 afaict, if you were doing AI 20 years ago, it's pretty much a given that you know lisp. 09:07:06 tcr: thats generally the association I hear inregards to lisp, is AI, so is the lack of it due to the language or the programmers 09:07:17 antifuchs: well, my impression is that it got to be a bad word in academia. 09:07:17 Original: After the death of that industry, Lisp has had a very bad smell. 09:07:20 good morning 09:07:22 Xof: i'll be there 09:07:31 *Xof* adjusts the list 09:07:44 Original: The point is that they could have never come as far as they came (to even make such promises) without Lisp 09:08:10 anyone have tips on how to disable ,sayoonara for my production box but (perhaps) keep it enabled for the rest? 09:08:26 there is also another pespective tangential to the digital winter 09:08:32 nunb: it's pretty easy: don't type it? 09:08:38 when you have two competing populations in a petry dish 09:08:45 they usually develop a balance 09:08:47 nunb: Put something which overrides that function in your production box's .emacs 09:09:00 nunb: Look into def-slime-repl-shortcut in contrib/slime-repl.el 09:09:03 then an event happens to sway the economics in the favour of one population 09:09:04 so in 20 years they havent managed to pull off ai with lisp? 09:09:07 this is effectively what happened 09:09:12 imho anyway. 09:09:17 original: What is AI? 09:09:24 artificial intelligence 09:09:34 one popuplation ended up with the vast capitalization in a 'way of thinking' and their children are what we are left with 09:09:36 Original: And what does that mean? 09:09:36 Original: "They" went on 09:09:54 Artificial intelligence (AI) is the intelligence of machines and the branch of computer science which aims to create it. 09:09:56 which is of course, independent of technical merit 09:10:14 did you not understand that the goal of real (strong) AI turned out to be impossible to begin with? .. this was already mentioned, Original .. 09:10:26 -!- badipod [n=badipod@110.32.140.61] has quit [Client Quit] 09:10:26 original: And what determines if something is "intelligence" or not? 09:10:27 Original: There's that saying that as quick as something starts working, it ceases to be AI but becomes its own field 09:10:29 how is that impossible? 09:10:37 tcr: thanks, will do. 09:10:44 badipod [n=badipod@110.32.140.61] has joined #lisp 09:10:53 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:11:03 Original: it's a very ambitious thing to try to do. They got pretty damn far with Lisp, but they were too optimistic. 09:11:04 quantum gravity 09:11:09 first off the managed to translate signals the brain sends into binary code, e.g translate thoughts to words, and they're working on emotions, the brain is just a complicated computers 09:11:09 that's really what it came down to afaict. 09:11:12 sykopomp: indavertent, "fingers know better" situation :-( 09:11:12 ai is absolutely possible 09:11:32 original: So, how can you test for AI? 09:11:35 Original: have any? 09:11:44 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 09:11:48 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:11:56 what kind of question is that? 09:11:58 Original: perhaps you can code us a sample strong AI implementation in asm? We'll try to study it. I'm sure it's not too hard. 09:12:03 Zhivago: write a bot that enters #lisp and trolls, weed out the generations that learn not to get kicked? 09:12:06 Original: Perhaps. The choice of programming language probably won't matter 09:12:08 yes they have tests for ai, depending on what's being claimed 09:12:10 mwahahaha profit! 09:12:21 I could do A.I in asm, sure 09:12:24 wouldn't be hard either 09:12:31 hehehe 09:12:31 "strong" A.i 09:12:36 original: So, what is AI? 09:12:37 Original: could you go code that for me, please? 09:12:38 aaaaaaand we are dealing with a 16 year old 09:12:39 hehe 09:12:49 Original: the claim is "something posesses AI". 09:12:51 Original: please include unit tests. 09:13:06 Original: Anyway, that one of the explanations why Lisp isn't used widely anymore because of its stigmata. 09:13:12 everything in life is conditional statements, if then elseif, else 09:13:17 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 09:13:21 *nunb* feels special with stigmata 09:13:28 how those conditions are addressed is based off various other things 09:13:32 all which can be implemented 09:13:44 that's naive 09:13:45 Original: In the last decade, there has been some uprise in its adoption though, because of the uprise of dynamic languages 09:13:54 trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 09:13:57 how is that naive 09:14:20 Anyway I don't have the feeling you really want to listen, and cut out. 09:14:40 it's okay, he just doesn't understand anything :) 09:14:54 '(I could do A.I in asm, sure) - this is OT, naive, probably juvenile, and #lisp's SNR has always been high. I vote ban. 09:15:08 banlist is full 09:15:13 I could 09:15:24 Original: if you could you'd do 09:15:30 well, less talk MORE CODE 09:15:51 Original, you -could- implement AI programs in asm, but the semantics and program size would end up much easier to understand and smaller if you were to write in a language like CL 09:15:55 jdz I have no reason too, but you assuming I couldn't is amusing, you seem to think A.I is somehow impossible or even difficult 09:16:01 it's indepth sure, but not difficult 09:16:15 Original, let's see you tackle something simple first .. let's see if you are capable of learning something trivial like Lisp 09:16:18 Original: of course it is impossible. you cannot implement something you cannot define. 09:16:41 i've tackled very complicated things, by breaking them into smaller parts, its really not hard 09:16:59 what, like learning to punctuate? 09:17:01 heh I can define A.I. 09:17:12 Original: no you can't. 09:17:15 original: Then do so. 09:17:24 Original: at least you failed so far. 09:17:29 *Adlai* (push 'corn) 09:17:30 I can define an immovable object and an irresistable force. Doesn't mean I can implement both at once 09:17:32 all are free to POP 09:17:33 A.I in the most extreme level is the ability for computers to not only learn, but understand and comprehend 09:17:36 -!- loxs [n=loxs@85-130-35-10.2073285806.ddns.cablebg.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:17:42 -!- badipod [n=badipod@110.32.140.61] has quit [Client Quit] 09:17:52 *Xof* wonders if the channel ban list is in fact full 09:17:54 oh yes 09:17:55 -!- rread [n=rread@72-254-98-222.client.stsn.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:17:55 That's a description, not a definition 09:17:56 obviously simple 09:18:09 stassats: really? I don't know whether to laugh or cry. 09:18:17 Original: how do you tell if computer understands something? 09:18:18 badipod [n=badipod@110.32.140.61] has joined #lisp 09:18:30 Original: does computer understand "chess"? 09:18:59 not currently no, they go off calculations, percentages,even pseduo randomness 09:19:21 does brain understand chess? 09:19:24 Original: have you ever heard of Turing Test? 09:19:39 rread [n=rread@72-254-98-222.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 09:20:01 does anyone else except Original want to wrangle about definition of AI? 09:20:08 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@pD9E6FDF9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 09:20:15 original: Well, computers can learn without much difficulty. 09:20:34 original: So, what does it mean to "understand and comprehend"? 09:20:41 (Zhivago doesn't count, obviously...) :P 09:20:45 that is the definition, a computer that can think, comprehend, and understand, but the problem with that is to truely understand some things requires context 09:21:00 context requires reasoning/emotion 09:21:07 that's what's hard to implement 09:21:11 original: So, you can't define it? 09:21:15 Original: i'm sure it is possible to implement context as a bunch of if-then rules 09:21:22 that is the definition, you can't read? 09:21:27 nikodemus: It is a matter of housetraining, if you don't want to just ban it. 09:21:30 you don't speak the english? 09:21:37 -!- konr [n=konrad@201.82.134.163] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:21:45 -!- nunb [n=nundan@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has left #lisp 09:21:56 original: Ah, you're not a native speaker of English, then. 09:21:58 zhivago I told you before, i'll tell you again,you're are absolutely on the wrong network 09:22:00 Original: so AI is something that possesses emotion? 09:22:03 trolls like you live at efnet 09:22:07 original: Once again, stop whining. 09:22:15 jdz yes true ai will need emotion 09:22:16 so he knows efnet .. figures 09:22:19 ad hominem is always helpful 09:22:20 just ban him, nicktastic 09:22:24 nikodemus* 09:22:26 Original: so what is emotion? 09:22:38 emotion is based off experiences, environment, and various other factors 09:22:48 <_deepfire> he didn't ask what it's based off 09:22:49 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Xof 09:23:00 xof I heard about you 09:23:10 A slow learner. 09:23:10 wow, I am famous!! 09:23:13 -!- Xof has set mode +b *!i=187db297@*gateway/web/freenode/x-zayhraybbrsgyimt 09:23:22 -!- Zhivago has set mode -o Zhivago 09:23:43 Original: apparently you fail at simple "plain" intelligence, not to mention artificial... 09:23:47 -!- Original [i=187db297@gateway/web/freenode/x-zayhraybbrsgyimt] has left #lisp 09:24:04 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 09:24:06 and i still don't know what intelligence is... 09:24:08 When working on typexpand, I wondered why the deftype-expanders do only take the &whole but not an &environment 09:24:16 how do those web gateway addresses work? 09:24:24 and why don't bans work on them? 09:24:29 george [n=george@189.107.150.164] has joined #lisp 09:26:15 Seems like &environment in deftype always gets bound to NIL 09:26:36 tcr: yeah, our types don't know about environments 09:26:39 I should probably fix that, too, if I'm on the spot 09:26:45 loxs [n=loxs@85-130-35-10.2073285806.ddns.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 09:26:59 -!- kejsaren2 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:27:31 I remember a launchpad entry for that 09:27:44 -!- Xof has set mode -b *!i=187db297@*gateway/web/freenode/x-zayhraybbrsgyimt 09:29:09 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 09:29:14 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 09:29:15 What is the reason for flaky threads on mac os? 09:29:17 legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-47-215.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 09:29:20 -!- george__ [n=george@189.107.129.109] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:29:43 os x 09:30:12 tcr: the problem is that we don't have a place in the environment for local type definitions 09:30:18 has this been reported to them? 09:30:42 (I.e. is there some place were a friend of mine could say "I'd like to see this fixed, too") 09:30:57 it is our fault too -- and yes, slyrus has cooked up C-based test-cases for some of the issues 09:31:14 our fault: stuff which is de-facto signal safe on most unixes isn't on darwin 09:31:19 Xof: Local type definitions? 09:31:34 envi_office2 [i=envi@203.109.25.110] has joined #lisp 09:31:35 FufieToo [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 09:32:01 How would Lisp look like without garbage collection? 09:32:16 newlisp 09:32:36 serichsen, you could have sys:free 09:32:41 knobo` [n=user@90.149.4.182] has joined #lisp 09:32:46 our and their fault: the normal unix stuff isn't (or at least wasn't) robust enough, so we need to use the mach stuff for threads, and none of use really knows mach -- and those interfaces aren't properly documented 09:32:54 ASau` [n=user@77.246.230.247] has joined #lisp 09:32:55 Wombatzu` [n=user@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has joined #lisp 09:32:57 This is the bug entry: https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/309140 09:33:00 fihi09` [n=user@pool-71-190-74-115.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:33:13 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 09:33:13 -!- rread [n=rread@72-254-98-222.client.stsn.net] has quit [clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 09:33:13 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 09:33:13 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 09:33:13 -!- phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 09:33:13 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.49.189] has quit [clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 09:33:13 -!- ASau [n=user@77.246.230.247] has quit [clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 09:33:13 -!- mishoo 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irc.freenode.net] 09:33:13 -!- Maddas [n=mz@74.125.121.33] has quit [clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 09:33:13 mogunus` [n=user@173-9-7-10-New-England.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 09:34:33 moocow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has joined #lisp 09:34:40 I've been discussing with someone who claims that the developer always knows when a piece in memory can be freed, so it should be his responsibility, and that garbage collection just adds needless overhead and timing uncertainty. 09:35:08 nunb [n=nundan@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 09:35:11 Xof [n=crhodes@dunstaple.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 09:35:25 Xof: What did you mean with local type definitions 09:35:25 i know how to fix at least a subset of the threads/darwin issues: (1) implement userspace mutexes for darwin, so they don't have to use flaky-for-us syscalls (2) replace mutexes in the gc with realtime semaphores 09:35:34 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.49.189] has joined #lisp 09:35:48 at least i believe those two would fix some of the issues 09:35:51 Xof: I made up a test case for the &env stuff at: https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/309140 09:36:01 Pepe_ [n=ppjet@ram94-7-82-232-191-53.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:36:06 z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #lisp 09:36:09 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 09:36:12 jsnell [n=jsnell@vasara.proghammer.com] has joined #lisp 09:36:19 Borbus [i=borbus@borbus.kicks-ass.net] has joined #lisp 09:36:19 Douglish [i=dal@horinek.net] has joined #lisp 09:36:20 hoeq [n=hoeq@213-65-76-219-no91.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 09:36:23 Maddas [n=mz@74.125.121.33] has joined #lisp 09:36:26 tcr: we don't separate out the file compilation environment from the rest of the environments 09:36:30 guaqua [i=gua@xob.kapsi.fi] has joined #lisp 09:36:31 peddie [n=peddie@TEP.MIT.EDU] has joined #lisp 09:36:31 phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 09:36:39 nicktastic [n=nick@unaffiliated/nicktastic] has joined #lisp 09:36:47 Computer [n=Computer@unaffiliated/computer] has joined #lisp 09:36:49 I'm fairly sure your test case is nonconforming by clhs 3.2.2.3 09:36:51 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 09:36:59 clhs 3.2.2.3 09:36:59 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_bbc.htm 09:37:00 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 09:37:08 serichsen: people can do many tasks that computer can do 09:37:22 "subtype/supertype relationships of type specifiers must not change between compile time and run time" 09:37:50 well that's true 09:37:56 serichsen: and how well can be seen with all those memory leaks 09:38:31 the third issue i know about is that you cannot spawn new lisp-threads in child processes if you have ever spawned one in the parent -- even if it has been joined before forking 09:38:54 cmsimon [n=cms@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has joined #lisp 09:39:15 chrisdone [n=user@unaffiliated/chrisdone] has joined #lisp 09:40:13 djinni` [n=djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 09:40:16 rread [n=rread@72-254-98-222.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 09:40:22 Orest^bnc [n=Orest@81.169.174.192] has joined #lisp 09:40:24 vcgomes [n=vcgomes@li17-238.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 09:40:40 Helheim [n=helheim@93.186.169.24] has joined #lisp 09:40:50 jl_2 [n=jl_2@97-122-153-155.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 09:40:53 tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-95-39.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:41:04 Xof: What about the bit with separating out the file comp env? 09:41:10 Do we need to? 09:41:17 hdurer__ [n=hdurer@nat/yahoo/x-igtiklfrjndwutcm] has joined #lisp 09:41:17 I don't know 09:41:18 spiaggia [n=user@armadillo.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 09:41:25 mishoo [n=mishoo@86-124-79-066.iasi.cablelink.ro] has joined #lisp 09:41:33 it would give you a conforming way of testing for the &env parameter behaviour :-) 09:41:43 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:41:44 dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:41:47 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 09:41:47 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:41:55 You can easily do that by define-symbol-macro + macroexpand on the env in the deftype body 09:41:56 -!- rread [n=rread@72-254-98-222.client.stsn.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:41:58 -!- badipod [n=badipod@110.32.140.61] has quit [Client Quit] 09:42:05 I mean testing for it 09:42:13 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:42:16 xristos [n=nx@research.suspicious.org] has joined #lisp 09:42:21 stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has joined #lisp 09:42:27 if we did, file-compiling (deftype foo () 'fixnum) would not define FOO in the execution environment -- only load of the .fasl did 09:42:35 gonzojive [n=red@condi.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 09:42:39 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 09:42:45 -!- xristos is now known as Guest10190 09:42:47 rread [n=rread@72-254-98-222.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 09:42:54 tcr: yeah, true 09:43:05 it's harder to construct a "real" test case, though :) 09:43:21 which would be nice, but also probably break some of code... 09:43:22 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 09:44:15 Xof: Well, the issue gets a real-world flavor with an exported typexpand functionality 09:44:27 oo, should think about release plans. 09:44:38 to make me rush?? 09:44:44 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-42-24.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:44:47 no, so that we don't embarrassingly fail to release 09:45:08 I can do a release on the 27th, I think 09:45:31 I have a release script that I want to test 09:45:42 oh, that reminds me 09:46:00 i have a new-install.sh that needs testing as well 09:46:11 -!- Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:46:19 Would you be interested in being able to access launchpad from cl? 09:46:23 -!- cmsimon [n=cms@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has left #lisp 09:46:37 stassats: that's what I said, but the question is first, whether a garbage collector can be as good as good manual memory management, and second, how much more tedious good manual memory management would be. 09:46:40 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 09:47:07 one that installs as sbcl-, with a symlink as sbcl -- similarly for the stuff under lib 09:47:18 -!- sohum [n=sohum@unaffiliated/sohum] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:47:26 serichsen: there can be parallel garbage collecting 09:47:52 tcr: doesn't really matter to me. at least i can't think of an immediate use -- but maybe i just fail to see the obvious 09:48:08 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 09:48:27 serichsen: and as for delays, there are real time garbage collectors 09:48:43 serichsen: gc can be better than manual memory management -- it all depends on what you measure 09:48:46 <_3b> serichsen: seems like for any serious app, you will end up writing your own computer mediated memory management anwyay, so might as well do it right 09:48:58 tcr: less interested than in accessing launchpad from emacs 09:49:00 how do i portably get the current directory that an executable is run from? 09:49:07 nikodemus: I'd really like to see if the value of SBCL_HOME would be determined from the location a symlink to the sbcl binary links to 09:49:17 (except that I can actually do that now by e-mail) 09:49:25 _3b: a kind of greenspunning :) 09:49:39 nikodemus: I provided a patch for that, but I wouldn't like to commit it myself. 09:49:49 <_3b> serichsen: right, look at all the ref counting smart pointer things in c++ 09:49:53 Xof: Yeah that's probably true 09:51:05 tcr: you mean /usr/bin/local/sbcl -> /usr/local/lib/sbcl-1.0.42/sbcl hence the core is /usr/local/lib/sbcl-1.0.42/sbcl.core ? 09:51:14 nikodemus: yes 09:51:25 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 09:52:02 _3b, stassats: thanks for the ammunition! :) 09:52:33 dto: You cannot, methinks. The best you can do is probe `readlink $0', and then create symlinks from /usr/bin to your installation site 09:52:53 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 09:52:59 dto: (truename *default-pathname-defaults*) might work 09:53:04 (load-time-value (or #.*compile-file-truename* *load-truename*) 09:53:10 someone mentioned this on another channel 09:53:21 dto: (truename ".") 09:53:26 Ok I misunderstood you then 09:53:43 nikodemus, stassats, those don't work portably 09:53:59 they're pathnames, they're never portable... 09:53:59 -!- rread [n=rread@72-254-98-222.client.stsn.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:54:01 sometimes they just stay as the directory in which the lisp was started 09:54:22 and what was the question? 09:54:52 rread [n=rread@72-254-98-222.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 09:55:00 how to get getcwd() portably, i believe 09:55:24 cffi + getcwd() or a thin portability layer 09:56:52 the problem i have is shipping a binary that includes files the binary wants to look up 09:56:54 (truename *default-pathname-defaults*) is portable in the sense that it works on all implementations i've tested 09:57:03 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:57:54 unless *default-pathname-defaults* is set in .lisprc, or set to something interesting by the program... 09:58:34 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 09:58:40 dto: do you specify that you need to run the program from the install directory, or similar? 09:59:00 you don't have to run it from the install directory, but that's what i'm expecting people to do 09:59:02 it's a game 09:59:13 badipod [n=badipod@110.32.140.61] has joined #lisp 09:59:14 (or have a shell-script that cds into the directory, etc) 09:59:18 and in order to ship it the same way on windows, mac, and linux, 09:59:19 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:59:27 i need to get the directory where everything opens. 09:59:41 s/opens/was untarred 09:59:53 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1167.versanet.de] has quit [No route to host] 10:00:16 I would guess that you need to configure the installation place as part of the installation process 10:00:41 Adlai: Did you read that predicate dispatch report? 10:00:57 for example, (car ccl:*command-line-argument-list*) => "/home/stas/lisp/impl/ccl/lx86cl64" 10:00:59 right now it looks for ~/.rlxrc and expects you to configure the pathname there. *default-pathname-defaults* is in there, but doesn't work 10:01:18 for example when the executable is clicked on from nautilus 10:01:28 (car sb-ext:*posix-argv*) => "/home/stas/lisp/impl/sbcl/src/runtime/sbcl" 10:01:35 -!- sp0_of [n=spoof@78.31.74.25] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:01:44 dto: given that it's pathnames, i would not promise any non-tested solution to be portable. if you want it to be robust, you really have to test across the implementations 10:01:57 -!- badipod [n=badipod@110.32.140.61] has left #lisp 10:02:09 i could just use sb-ext for now. it's really a minor problem. 10:02:34 tcr, the really long one? I read parts of it. Thank you for pointing it out. 10:02:45 kmc [n=keegan@206-71-236-70.c3-0.nyw-ubr5.nyr-nyw.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 10:03:17 i've used (make-pathname :name nil :type nil :defaults (truename (asdf:system-definition-pathname (asdf:find-system :my-system)))) but that doesn't really work for executable delivery... 10:03:22 Adlai: Is it based on MOP? 10:03:23 -!- rread [n=rread@72-254-98-222.client.stsn.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:04:04 oh, oh. i've misunderstood the whole thing *blush* 10:04:24 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 10:04:33 levente_meszaros [n=levente_@apn-94-44-8-243.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 10:04:44 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:05:02 rread [n=rread@72-254-98-222.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 10:06:05 I wondered this morning if it made sense to take that predicate dispatch stuff, write a good test suite for it, and include it as a contrib for sbcl, so Xof has a hopefully non-trivial application test for his future MOP changes 10:06:55 -!- lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:07:05 if you're willing to maintain it :) 10:07:38 lukjad007 [n=lukjadOO@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 10:07:38 What about ContextL and AspectL ? 10:08:26 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 10:08:27 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 10:08:56 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:10:51 demmeln [n=Adium@188.104.85.104] has joined #lisp 10:12:17 nikodemus: How bad does (interrupt-thread *thread-to-be-suspended* #'(lambda () (signal 'suspend))) sound? So threads can add customized suspension behaviour via handlers. 10:15:12 -!- EinarDog1in [n=plyryan@pool-71-113-49-75.sttlwa.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:15:30 How does interrupt-thread relate to uwp protection forms in the interrupted thread? 10:15:38 tcr: i've commited an order of magnitude faster and less consing asdf-determine-system 10:15:47 -!- envi_office2 [i=envi@203.109.25.110] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:16:02 stassats: cool I'll check it out 10:18:02 tcr: it sounds bad 10:18:03 -!- rread [n=rread@72-254-98-222.client.stsn.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:19:01 How would you implement interprocess messaging with real-time concerns? 10:19:04 only thing suspend handler can really safely do is set a flag and continue normal execution -- which tests the flag at regular intervals 10:19:07 rread [n=rread@72-254-98-222.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 10:19:45 write the code so that it checks for "urgent messages" at predictable intervals 10:20:01 is mailboxes or queues or similar for communication 10:20:25 never use interrupt-thread or with-timeout 10:21:37 if i was in a hurry, i'd use with-deadline. if i had time, i'd add missing :timeout arguments to with-mutex &co, and add per-stream deadlines (see hans' design in ccl) 10:22:10 s/is mailboxes/use mailboxes/ 10:22:15 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:22:52 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 10:22:56 which reminds me, i still have sb-mailbox to clean up and commit 10:23:46 I may in fact do that. Could you write up an extensive proposal for me? Something which outlines the steps, and explaining use cases/benefits? 10:23:56 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 10:24:15 i could, but i'm not sure i have the time 10:24:26 I may do that in paid time, I think an extensive proposal would help 10:25:08 funny, fuzzy-completion does not complete NIL 10:25:22 I'd be also interested in a discussion why the interrupt-thread is so bad. I know you're always talking about it, but I think it's not extensively explained in the manual. 10:25:51 I'd be especially interested in explanatory comments on what everything could go wrong 10:26:02 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:26:28 I'm planning to build a touchscreen UI for a somewhat embedded home media player. This will run on X. What toolkit would you suggest I dig into for creating a simple, large-buttoned interface? (no window manager) 10:26:32 tcr: http://random-state.net/log/3386927147.html 10:26:46 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 10:27:30 Right I remember that, I'll read it again 10:27:33 -!- loxs [n=loxs@85-130-35-10.2073285806.ddns.cablebg.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:28:24 antoszka: mcclim? 10:28:38 nikodemus: Are there more areas that should heed deadlines? 10:29:00 stassats: Will look, thx. 10:29:13 though, mcclim isn't very button-friendly 10:29:32 Xach [n=xach@unnamed.xach.com] has joined #lisp 10:29:33 Is there one that is? 10:29:44 i.e. it's not very its power is unleashed 10:29:49 nikodemus: I does not seem there's an exported check-for-deadline that I can use at application level 10:29:54 s/very/where/ 10:30:01 I suppose possibility of bitmapped buttons would be a plus. 10:30:17 antoszka: there's commonqt for Qt 10:30:22 -!- Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:30:43 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 10:30:43 tcr: decode-timeout sleazily does that for you 10:30:51 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@188.104.85.104] has quit ["Leaving."] 10:31:08 kiuma [n=kiuma@93-62-254-109.ip25.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 10:31:52 tcr: basically, all potentially blocking operations should come with a :timeout argument, except for stream operations where streams should have associated deadlines 10:31:57 -!- joga_ is now known as joga 10:32:56 stassats: Qt is humongous, and that won't be a very powerful machine... How about the state of gtk2 support? Last time I looked it seemed either unfinished or abandoned (depending on where I looked). 10:33:03 nikodemus: The problem are foreign calls 10:33:53 antoszka: i haven't used anything besides commonqt and mcclim, but some people here are fond of LTK if you fancy Tk 10:34:09 hello lispers 10:34:29 there's been some recent work on cl-gtk2 ( http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-gtk2/ ) .. i don't know how complete it is 10:34:47 stassats: Yeah, I like Tk, I'll at it, thx. 10:34:52 tcr: i don't see how they're different from any third-party code 10:34:53 if you use a library with blocking calls without timeout arguments, you're sol -- be that code lisp or c 10:34:54 s/at/look at/ 10:34:58 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 10:35:07 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 10:35:18 wrong key 10:36:04 nikodemus: The Lisp stuff is used for high-level reasoning, I don't think it does use much Lisp IO; it more likely talks to the robot io via ffi 10:37:02 I have to learn more about the system. 10:37:04 *tcr* afk 10:37:34 tcr: presumably the ffi calls already have necessary realtime guarantees 10:37:47 if they don't, it's the C that needs fixing :) 10:40:17 sp0_of [n=spoof@78.31.74.25] has joined #lisp 10:40:29 c|mell [n=cmell@91.151.140.4] has joined #lisp 10:41:10 loxs [n=loxs@85-130-35-10.2073285806.ddns.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 10:45:36 antoszka: cl-gtk2 was easy enough for me to get working on both linux and windows although i don't know about bitmapped buttons 10:52:00 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.216.165] has joined #lisp 10:52:36 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@93-172-204-211.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 10:53:03 attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-7-1.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 10:54:43 aerique: thx. 10:57:41 ejs2 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 11:00:35 -!- rread [n=rread@72-254-98-222.client.stsn.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:00:50 rread [n=rread@72-254-87-23.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 11:01:44 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@91.151.140.4] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:02:17 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #lisp 11:03:36 ecraven [n=nex@octonex.swe.uni-linz.ac.at] has joined #lisp 11:04:11 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:07:16 -!- borism [n=boris@213-35-232-204-dsl.end.estpak.ee] has quit [Client Quit] 11:07:20 pavelludiq [i=c28d2f82@gateway/web/freenode/x-brkzetakfculzeec] has joined #lisp 11:08:19 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:10:05 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 11:11:48 stassats: I wonder if slime-open/browse-system should be synchronous, too 11:13:42 (apply (lambda (&rest rest) (declare (dynamic-extent rest)) (reduce #'+ rest)) (make-list 100000 :initial-element 1)) fails for me on sbcl because of dynamic-extent 11:13:52 is usage of dynamic-extent safe? 11:14:45 fails in what way? 11:14:59 CORRUPTION WARNING in SBCL pid 32041(tid 140737354004208): Memory fault at f4d25960 (pc=0x1002c38d4a, sp=0x7ffff4d25960) 11:15:12 holy crap 11:15:13 tcr: i like asynchronous because it doesn't freeze the whole emacs when it, for example, retrieves lisp from swap 11:15:47 stassats: what is the difference between slime-read-system-name with default-value being nil and calling out to swank:asdf-determine-system? 11:16:18 ah ok I guess I see 11:16:44 uhm 11:18:12 hmm, and this dynamics extent seems to fail only on x86-64 11:18:41 -!- rread [n=rread@72-254-87-23.client.stsn.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:18:43 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-jpnwxrzukamsqwml] has left #lisp 11:18:57 rread [n=rread@72-254-87-23.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 11:19:49 poet [n=tim@unaffiliated/poet] has joined #lisp 11:20:31 stassats: perhaps the behaviour of default-value should also call out to asdf-determine-system? 11:21:15 it's called most of the time from the repl, so i don't think it'd be useful 11:21:26 ,load-system etc. i mean 11:21:29 -!- poet [n=tim@unaffiliated/poet] has quit [Client Quit] 11:21:56 oudeis [n=oudeis@62.219.154.220] has joined #lisp 11:22:04 i _guess_ so 11:22:36 Yes makes sense 11:23:23 I think this should be somewhat refactored though 11:23:38 slime-read-system-name should be able to do both 11:23:41 depending on its arguments 11:26:25 dv_ [n=dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 11:27:05 stassats: something no-right with &rest list handling, it seems it should "just" blow the stack in worst case, but obviously that is not happening 11:27:21 stassats: can you put that on launchpad, please 11:27:39 nikodemus: i'm in the middle of doing it right now 11:27:49 thanks! 11:27:49 thanks! 11:27:57 oops 11:28:16 ruediger [n=quassel@188-23-89-215.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 11:28:48 it blows stack when increasing the length further 11:29:04 stassats: Would mind sharing your improved M-. hack for elisp never mind how bad it is 11:29:36 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 11:30:14 _deepfire [n=deepfire@80.92.100.69] has joined #lisp 11:35:59 -!- ejs2 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:36:08 stassats pasted "M-. for elisp" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/90573 11:36:24 only for functions 11:38:03 find-lisp-object-file-name 11:38:08 I don't seem to have that 11:39:30 it's in emacs-23 at least 11:39:57 I'm on emacs-23 11:40:03 23.0.60.1 11:40:19 where is it defined? 11:40:48 i'm on 23.1.50.1, it was introduced at Mon Sep 1 08:04:40 2008, in lisp/help-fns.el 11:42:00 ah well 11:42:21 I have a built from cvs too but I don't want to restart my instance 11:42:25 build 11:42:52 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:43:19 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 11:43:46 -!- rread [n=rread@72-254-87-23.client.stsn.net] has quit [] 11:45:47 -!- dang` [n=daniel@S0106001a704b7fbe.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:45:53 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 11:50:43 bulibuta [n=bulibuta@unaffiliated/bulibuta] has joined #lisp 11:51:18 I got sbcl working on OpenBSD-amd64, yay! 11:51:50 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:52:44 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 11:55:10 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit ["leaving"] 11:55:52 oh great, nor slime's profiler, neither ccl's advice-profiler are willing to work for me on ccl 11:56:33 stassats: What's not working? 11:57:00 Error: Can't resolve foreign symbol "clock_gettime" on advice-profiler 11:57:52 stassats: Which version of CCL? 11:58:30 sellout: 1.5-dev-r13204M-trunk (LinuxX8664) 11:59:15 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590d2b20.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:01:22 Axius [n=ade@92.82.91.1] has joined #lisp 12:03:05 basically, (#_clock_gettime 'foo 'bar) doesn't work 12:03:40 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:04:57 -!- pavelludiq [i=c28d2f82@gateway/web/freenode/x-brkzetakfculzeec] has quit ["Page closed"] 12:05:26 Yeah, sorry, not sure why. Hans or #ccl might be helpful. 12:05:40 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@62.219.154.220] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 12:07:21 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 12:09:15 Reaver2 [n=Data_Ent@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 12:11:09 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 12:13:05 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 12:15:39 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:17:05 tcr: the predicate dispatch in Ucko is lame; it sticks all sorts of random stuff into method qualifiers 12:17:19 I don't think allowing it to work is a design goal 12:17:31 banisterfiend [n=little_b@202-89-134-2.ue.woosh.co.nz] has joined #lisp 12:17:41 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:17:50 -!- banisterfiend [n=little_b@202-89-134-2.ue.woosh.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:19:47 ok 12:20:05 as I remember the report, anyway 12:20:31 segv [n=mb@p4FC1B2BE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:20:40 now, if someone were to take the Costanza / lichtblau protocol for call-applicable-method-using-specializers and stick it in somewhere, then we'd be talking gravy 12:26:38 speaking of protocols, does anyone know an implementation with a protocol / hooks into their lambda-list parsing? 12:27:54 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:30:19 konr [n=konrad@201.82.134.163] has joined #lisp 12:31:02 flatline [n=flatline@z166195.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 12:31:15 mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has joined #lisp 12:35:15 'No results found for "call-applicable-method-using-specializers".' 12:35:23 Google sux! 12:36:31 demmeln [n=Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 12:37:43 mvillene1ve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:37:59 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 12:38:03 -!- mvillene1ve is now known as mvilleneuve 12:38:38 hmh, how did i tell sbcl that some file is to be loaded only for a given implementation? 12:39:29 -!- Axius [n=ade@92.82.91.1] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:39:56 http://www.doc.gold.ac.uk/~mas01cr/talks 12:40:02 http://www.lichteblau.com/git/?p=specializable.git;a=summary 12:41:47 splittist: see above. Don't know whether Pascal's superior proposal is available anywhere except in Xof's INBOX. 12:42:15 lichtblau: thanks! 12:43:18 Guthur [i=c13dbf14@gateway/web/freenode/x-gqhzrvcnlspuumpl] has joined #lisp 12:43:48 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483AE98.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:45:28 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 12:46:54 talking to Original about AI is somewhat cruel... people that don't know the difficulties of the description of AI alone think they know what it means 12:50:30 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 12:52:36 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 12:53:53 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:54:47 ia [n=ia@89.169.161.244] has joined #lisp 12:55:09 OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@219-89-107-44.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 12:55:54 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 12:56:14 madnificent: on the other hand, Skynet teaches us that AI comes about when people aren't even trying to achieve it. 12:57:14 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:58:35 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:58:43 i think skynet is a little bit of the problem, people have a view of AI that is tainted somewhat by science fiction 12:59:52 though emergent behaviour is pretty interesting, they recently did some robotic experiences at my uni with gap transversal, getting a robot to got through a gap 13:00:01 .oO( Are we still trying to write sentient AI in lisp? ) 13:00:02 it end up the robot was right handed 13:01:27 lichtblau: isn't it in your inbox too? 13:01:44 but the thing was that the operator that trained it, most likely had a tendency towards right handed gap traversal 13:02:53 when i questioned the professor about it he wasn't to forthcoming though 13:04:06 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:04:11 -!- Guthur [i=c13dbf14@gateway/web/freenode/x-gqhzrvcnlspuumpl] has quit ["Page closed"] 13:07:22 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:07:35 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:09:29 Fare [n=Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:09:54 *Fare* is experiencing an interesting case of appearing-disappearing common-lisp-controller on CLISP. 13:10:10 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-94-1.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:10:10 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 13:11:08 *Fare* traces it to his use of no-asdf 13:11:28 *Fare* wonders how things ever worked on other compilers... 13:11:29 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:11:36 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 13:13:13 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 13:13:25 Krystof [n=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 13:13:49 longkid [n=lisp@113.22.177.216] has joined #lisp 13:14:11 hello all 13:14:17 hi longkid 13:15:24 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-146-194.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 13:17:07 ska` [n=user@ppp-58-8-127-155.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 13:18:19 *_deepfire* is utterly amazed by how effectively cheap TN TFT panels murder colors. 13:21:35 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-37-148.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 13:21:43 if i want to print a integer number to screen, i use (format t "~S" number)??? 13:21:53 is it right? 13:22:38 if that's what you want, yes 13:22:38 _deepfire, TN ? 13:22:56 (princ 10) would work to 13:22:58 longkid, I'd add in a ~% at the end 13:23:13 but that's just me 13:23:27 Fare: to add a new line. Right? 13:23:34 clhs ~R 13:23:34 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cba.htm 13:23:35 *Adlai* would use that! 13:23:48 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-82-81-3-167.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:23:49 maybe throw in a ~:@R for good effect 13:23:52 *stassats* would use ~a 13:23:56 *Xach* likes ~:D 13:24:21 Or you could just write it in assembly language! 13:25:00 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 13:25:05 Phoodus, yes but only if your assembly language is in parenthetized syntax. We have standards, here. 13:25:34 Xach, you win the contest for the smiliest smiley 13:25:48 Fare: or wrapped in parentheses, to follow LOOP's lead. 13:26:18 Fare, like CCL LAP? 13:26:48 <_deepfire> Fare, the cheapest TFT technology, "twisten nematic" 13:26:52 <_deepfire> *twisted 13:26:58 Adlai, or Lisp Machine LAP 13:27:01 -!- george [n=george@189.107.150.164] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:28:00 pkhuong, well then, we must accept an assembly syntax based on one-letter instructions with a ~ prefix and numeric and boolean modifiers 13:28:35 george [n=george@189.107.157.39] has joined #lisp 13:28:44 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-218-0-98.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 13:29:18 mov rax, (8*rbx+rcx)145 ==> ~0,145,2,1,8@M 13:29:34 my eyes! 13:29:38 ouch 13:30:15 is there differences when using ~A or ~S to print a number? 13:30:23 you're touchy, that's relatively harmless control-string 13:32:06 longkid: don't thinks so, no. 13:32:14 *Fare* tracked down his problem with using no-asdf on the master but not on the slave. Sigh. 13:32:38 *Fare* would prefer for implementations to all be upgraded to a recent ASDF, but that won't happen any time soon. 13:33:09 longkid, I find http://l1sp.org/pcl/format helpful 13:35:08 Adlai: thanks 13:35:51 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 13:36:26 -!- Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:37:23 <_deepfire> Fare, that's why desire's bootstrap pulls, compiles and loads fresh ASDF as step #0. 13:38:41 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:41:02 billstclai [n=billstcl@dsl-74-209-25-128.taconic.net] has joined #lisp 13:42:09 Fare: mixing at&t and intel, are you? (: 13:42:51 benny [n=benny@i577A1167.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 13:44:08 pkhuong, I haven't written assembly code in ages. Not done it in 64-bit ever. 13:44:33 _deepfire, do you compile your own CL implementation, too? 13:44:57 _deepfire, because otherwise, on debian, you'll have problems, as the new ASDF causes errors when loaded on top of an old one. 13:45:04 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:45:10 (which is the reason why I wrote no-asdf.lisp to begin with) 13:45:15 lexa_ [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 13:45:38 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest14597 13:47:24 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:48:01 <_deepfire> Fare, ouch! 13:48:57 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [] 13:50:22 ah, that's a great name for an extensible binding form a la BIND: LET*! 13:50:31 *Xach* stumbles across http://github.com/ks/X.LET-STAR 13:51:18 (and the old one is included by c-l-c) 13:51:33 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 13:52:10 *splittist* wonders if unicode has asterisk-likes with different numbers of points... 13:52:21 _deepfire, and I just bit myself by including in the xcvb test suite a test that runs on top of xcvb (using no-asdf) that tries to load the hello world example (using cl-launch compiled while not using no-asdf) 13:55:42 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:55:47 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Boot me gently"] 13:55:50 Unicode 2700 - 274B, FWIW. Let #x4b LET-STAR's bloom! 13:56:06 (or #x4C, I guess) 13:56:44 No, from 2721.. 13:56:55 *splittist* gives up. #lisp sighs with relief 13:57:20 <_deepfire> Fare, how do you unload it: delete-package? 13:57:21 let 13:57:42 _deepfire, see in xcvb/no-asdf -- not *just* delete-package 13:58:35 ejs2 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 13:58:36 <_deepfire> Fare, I once tried to make ASDF systems reloadable, my naive approach was to delete-package. Of course it leaked memory (IIRC pkhuong said it was due to symbols not being deleted..) 13:59:08 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 13:59:22 delete-package basically works, except that other packages use yours, and are used, etc. 13:59:27 -!- Guest14597 [n=lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 13:59:34 plus there is some "magic" cleanup to be done for SBCL 14:00:05 once again, utsl 14:01:03 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 14:01:12 <_deepfire> minion, what does utsl stand for? 14:01:12 Unloverly Transponible Streltzi Limitlessly 14:01:26 <_deepfire> Hmm :-) 14:01:26 Use The Source, Luke 14:01:31 <_3b> splittist: what, no let-airplane or -scissors? 14:02:25 _3b: that's for advanced use. YOu shouldn't run with -scissors (: 14:02:27 Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.154.148.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 14:02:49 run-with 14:02:51 <_deepfire> Fare, I knew about other packages -- I deleted packages in proper, linearised reverse order. 14:03:14 <_deepfire> So it appears I lacked the SBCL-specific magic you mentioned.. 14:04:04 <_deepfire> (Maybe you even cannot delete a package if it's used by others, in SBCL, I don't remember..) 14:05:01 or maybe you can, and then "interesting" things happen afterwards 14:06:04 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:08:23 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:09:21 Haplo_ [n=ihatchon@LPuteaux-156-14-10-37.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:10:16 -!- OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@219-89-107-44.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:12:54 bobbysmith007 [n=russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 14:16:15 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 14:16:25 If only there were some sort of document to give us canonical guidance on the topic. 14:17:26 Geralt [n=Geralt@vpn-cl-161-130.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has joined #lisp 14:18:37 Meanwhile, any SBCL developer who's ever looked at this shudders at the thought of trying to make it work "right", but knows that the issue is that the symbols are held by the infodb. 14:19:10 You -might- be able to fmakunbound the symbols first, which should reduce though probably not eliminate the memory load. 14:20:19 (Using fmakunbound clears the references from the fdefinition objects to the code components, which would be a start.) 14:21:21 hi everyone 14:21:41 <_deepfire> nyef, sounds like a plan.. too bad I did rm -rf ~/source/reloadable.. 14:22:26 <_deepfire> Aha, apparently I still have it elsewhere.. 14:27:14 nyef: so first, fmakunbound and makunbound all these symbols, then unintern them, then delete the package? 14:27:30 (but first, recurse on using packages) 14:30:11 setheus [n=setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:31:57 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:33:29 cvandusen [n=user@12.185.80.194] has joined #lisp 14:34:40 any sbcl hackers around here? 14:36:31 yes, lots 14:37:31 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 14:37:57 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:38:01 I have quite a bunch of patches after the last commit of sbcl on the OpenBSD ports tree 14:38:10 was wondering if some of those could go upstream 14:38:19 so that they don't have to be maintained 14:39:01 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:39:03 they probably could. are they easily viewable on the web? 14:39:47 -!- ska` [n=user@ppp-58-8-127-155.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:39:53 yes they are, but not at this very moment as there was an AC outage a few hours ago and stuff had to be turned off and restarted 14:40:08 http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/ports/lang/sbcl/patches/ 14:40:18 this is where you can see them 14:45:15 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483AE98.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 14:45:19 the makefile changes are probably ok, though I'm not sure I understand the point. 14:45:40 I'm not an expert on the runtime path bits, but they look ok-ish 14:46:47 the contrib changes need to be reworked or subjected to external discussion 14:46:49 which makefile? GNUmakefile 14:46:53 ir1util has already been merged. 14:47:19 GNUmakefile + Config.x86-openbsd 14:47:54 pkhuong: in the .32 release, right? 14:48:33 1.0.32.14 14:48:49 yes, that's not ported yet. 1.0.31 version is the latest that works at the moment 14:49:25 but if its upstream that means one more patch to go when 1.0.32 will be ready, yay 14:49:57 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.80.202] has joined #lisp 14:50:05 rrice [n=rrice@adsl-99-51-212-135.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:50:50 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 14:50:52 I'm quite happy that the all the regression tests pass too 14:51:13 whoa, macrolet on keywords??? I'm stumped. 14:52:04 -!- ejs2 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 14:52:24 anyway, I'm out for now, be back later tonight 14:52:32 Fare: it's legal, like flet on keywords 14:52:46 ejs2 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 14:52:47 not a good idea in most situations tho 14:52:51 Or defun and defmacro. 14:53:36 any CLX hackers around here ? 14:53:52 I'm looking for a serialization library for CL. My needs are fairly simple, though i need to serialize some objects by reference (as opposed to by value). Candidates from cliki seem to be cl-store or cl-serializer. Does anyone have experience with both/either? 14:54:11 (few dependencies are a plus) 14:55:01 demmeln: do you serialize for transmitting, or do you simply need a store? 14:55:02 -!- r0bby is now known as r0bby|android_ 14:55:12 store/read 14:55:17 Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has joined #lisp 14:55:35 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.80.202] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:55:41 demmeln: I'm experimenting with rucksack right now; it might fit 14:55:53 -!- r0bby|android_ is now known as r0bby|android__ 14:55:53 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.118.48] has joined #lisp 14:56:41 -!- r0bby|android__ is now known as r0bby 14:58:39 serichsen: I saw that as well on cliki, you are right. 14:58:52 according to clbuild rucksack and cl-store have no dependencies 14:59:01 demmeln, i'm just working on lowering the deps for hu.dwim.serializer (formerly cl-serializer). source available at http://dwim.hu/darcsweb/darcsweb.cgi 14:59:29 it supports fine-grained control on what keeps identity (for runtime memory/speed price) 15:00:08 attila_lendvai: Oh I need to have a look at it. Thanks 15:00:25 although we don't have a far-fetched strategy to keep binary compatibility. so if you are planning to use the data long-term then that's some minus points in the decision 15:01:19 on how to keep, that is. we gave some thoughts to it, but not that much. although, maybe i say that because levy was mainly working on it not me... 15:01:33 *attila_lendvai* needs to leave 15:01:44 attila_lendvai: ok thank. bye 15:04:35 Haplo_: I occasionally hack on CLX, why? 15:04:58 (setf j (random 9)) 15:04:59 (loop 15:04:59 do (setf k (random 9)) 15:04:59 while (= k j)) 15:05:11 minion, lisppaste 15:05:12 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 15:05:37 *attila_lendvai* waves bye 15:05:39 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-7-1.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit ["..."] 15:05:51 -!- ejs2 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:06:39 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has left #lisp 15:06:49 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-71-163-162-204.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:08:10 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 15:09:17 nyef: using the latest cmucl 20a version, leads to change in the -equal functions. They now requires that both arguments are of the proper type. Thus (window-equal nil ) raises a type error nil is not an XLIB:WINDOW. Even if this is logical reading the source, it does not seem obvious to me that a predicate should behave like that. 15:09:29 :-s 15:10:16 longkid pasted "lambda expression" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/90580 15:10:41 That does seem odd. And it's also not the branch of CLX that I hack on, so I really don't know anything about that change. 15:11:40 longkid: are you sure you don't have parentheses around the two forms you pasted? 15:12:16 *Fare* realizes that the patch he sent to the mailing-list uses #+unix instead of #!+unix and that causes compilation failure of SBCL 15:12:19 of course, I have 2 parentheses around those forms 15:12:40 so much for testing compilation of the file with C-c C-k 15:13:01 Fare: Better than silently working. 15:13:12 pkhuong, certainly. 15:13:25 though the error message could be more explicit 15:13:45 as in "You used #+unix, you probably meant #!+unix! 15:13:46 nyef: well this is an import of the latest TELENT version 15:14:13 pkhuong: so where is the problem? 15:14:22 Haplo_: From Krystof's repository? 15:14:28 also, I suppose there should be a standard sbcl-guts-hacking-mode for SLIME. Or is there already? 15:14:29 longkid: in the surrounding parentheses. 15:14:37 brown [n=user@72.14.228.129] has joined #lisp 15:14:38 Fare: what would that do? 15:15:03 pkhuong: but I've already put parentheses around them 15:15:04 allow me to compile code from sbcl innards in the same language variant as SBCL 15:15:05 -!- brown is now known as Guest39654 15:15:30 so I detect this kind of error interactively (and also, can waive package locks, infodb overrides, etc.) 15:15:44 longkid: and that's the problem. 15:15:58 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:16:38 nyef: I would say yes according the cvs log message: Import portable clx version from Christophe Rhodes darcs repository as of 2009-06-16. 15:17:08 _deepfire: I have a possibly-more-complete "solution" for package destruction. For each symbol to be destroyed, and each non-nil element in the array sb-c::*info-types*, (sb-c::clear-info-value ). 15:17:40 serichsen: any reason you preferred rucksack over cl-store? 15:18:04 pkhuong: b/c those forms are in the body of a loop, so i have to put parentheses around 15:18:28 longkid, progn? 15:18:29 minion: tell longkid about pcl 15:18:30 longkid: look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 15:18:37 longkid: read a book. 15:19:17 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 15:19:53 minion: thanks, i'll read it 15:19:53 np 15:20:24 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 15:20:50 -!- longkid [n=lisp@113.22.177.216] has left #lisp 15:22:13 Someone familiar with memory allocators? 15:22:24 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-218-0-98.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:22:48 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:23:19 -!- nowhere_man [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:23:31 nowhere_man [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:24:06 dostoyevsky, what kind of memory allocators? 15:24:10 like GC innards? 15:25:00 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["Changing server"] 15:25:10 Haplo_: I found the commit in my copy of the repository. 15:25:27 Dated Oct 6, 2008. 15:25:48 I think its quite correct 15:26:16 pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 15:26:21 the only question is shouldn't it accept other typed arguments 15:26:22 It's using a declare type on the arguments, which is reasonable as far as it goes. 15:27:22 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 15:27:27 It possibly should, but that raises the question of what to do if neither argument is a window/pixmap/cursor? 15:27:49 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:27:57 Fare: I just notice that I am in the wrong #. It's a C memory allocator (the easiest) I've written and I end up with a too large list of free blocks because allocation requests just get bigger.. 15:29:01 nyef: I know, the old equality problem ... 15:29:19 dostoyevsky, suffering from memory leaks through impossibility of compaction? 15:29:32 dostoyevsky, look for buddy allocation algorithms. 15:29:40 Fare: sounds more like a lack of buddying. 15:29:46 or welcome to the world of moving / compacting collectors. 15:29:51 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 15:29:51 Fare: Yes... I wonder how modern malloc implementations do it... 15:29:55 nyef: I'll probably patch it for my own purpose in Eclipse 15:29:56 (If only one argument is a window, then they obviously aren't window-equal, but if neither is a window then they are both equally as far as windowness is concerned.) 15:30:29 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:30:30 dostoyevsky, and/or you can have pools by size, taking advantage of a large address space... 15:30:42 You doing anything with GLX in Eclipse? 15:31:29 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 15:31:29 (buddies are kind of automatic size-pooling, at the code of a rather coarse size classification) 15:32:25 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 15:33:10 Fare: Thanks for your thoughts. ;-) 15:34:03 -!- george [n=george@189.107.157.39] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:35:52 at long last, a clean test of xcvb-master on clisp, past that ASDF package madness! 15:37:49 lupine_85 [n=quassel@unaffiliated/lupine-85/x-7392152] has joined #lisp 15:39:27 dostoyevsky, go look at a modern malloc implementation 15:40:12 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 15:41:27 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:42:10 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 15:42:16 dostoyevsky: glibc's malloc uses a buddy allocator 15:43:16 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:43:36 nyef: no nothing with GLX at the moment, it would be a great idea but I've never start anything in that direction so far. 15:43:38 dostoyevsky: and remember, you can always steal space from a buddy region that is for objects smaller than yours 15:45:07 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:45:11 tobetchi [n=tobetchi@p296ba7.sagant01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:45:52 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 15:46:38 rahul, thief! 15:46:58 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 15:48:20 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:48:55 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-215-18.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:49:22 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 15:49:41 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit ["leaving"] 15:50:57 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:51:12 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 15:51:46 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 15:52:04 -!- ganbold [n=ganbold@202.131.232.87] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:52:49 ejs [n=eugen@250-46-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 15:54:30 -!- ASau [n=user@77.246.230.247] has quit ["off"] 15:56:06 -!- jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:58:27 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 15:59:11 Haha, I just realized the line at the top of the page: 15:59:21 "that book is dead sexy \u2014Xach on #lisp" 15:59:33 milanj [n=milan@93.86.187.145] has joined #lisp 16:00:11 Of the practical common lisp book 16:01:34 \u2014, eh? 16:01:50 -!- nunb [n=nundan@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:01:51 that would be a - 16:02:10 firefox seems to do that 16:02:20 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 16:02:26 with a lot of things, actually 16:03:18 In fact, I'm not eve 100% sure its firefox because sometimes it doesnt, but in most cases it does, but whenever I paste into a terminal it imediately becomes that, and I've seen it happen other places too. I'm guessing it might just be aterm 16:03:22 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:04:02 -!- myrkraverk` [n=johann@157-157-75-2.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:06:49 -!- trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 16:07:04 what if you copy to an emacs window? 16:08:20 comes out normal 16:08:24 fatalnix1995: that gets interpreted by the shell as a dash 16:08:34 ah 16:08:45 so terminals paste non-7-bit characters that way 16:08:49 Paraselene__ [n=None@79-68-173-7.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 16:09:10 echo "that book is dead sexy \u2014Xach on #lisp" at a shell prompt to see 16:09:41 the comment I was aiming for was not "let's talk about Unicode for ages", but more "please proofread what you paste into your IRC client" 16:09:52 it just returns \u2014 16:10:16 fatalnix1995: hmm. works fine with zsh in rxvt 16:10:32 fatalnix1995: could be that your font doesn't support unicode, also 16:10:43 zsh says character not in range 16:10:52 and cuts it off at sexy 16:10:54 maybe you have an old zsh version 16:11:06 I wouldnt doubt it 16:11:09 I have 4.3.10 16:11:12 with the distro I use 16:11:16 zsh 4.3.10 (i486-slackware-linux-gnu) 16:11:33 shrug, maybe it's just slackware's miscompilation of it 16:11:51 could be 16:13:41 how long do sbcl tests take, already? (order of magnitude, say on a 1.2GHz PC) 16:14:24 yeah it doesnt work on xterm, rxvt or aterm, and if it works on rxvt it should work on aterm lol 16:14:25 10 minutes 16:14:42 it might work on urxvt 16:14:55 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:15:02 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:15:36 or maybe he's using the zsh option BSD_ECHO 16:16:40 *Fare* runs tests before to re-submit patch 16:16:46 thats very possible 16:16:56 seems how Slackware sticks close to BSD like operation 16:17:47 -!- Guest10190 is now known as xristos 16:18:14 is it normal to see backtraces in the log of run-tests.sh ? 16:18:18 yes 16:18:31 not many but some, around the threads tests 16:18:43 yup, was around the threads tests. 16:18:47 even some "zillions of nested errors, died horribly" are normal 16:19:29 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:20:14 /apparent success (reached end of run-tests.sh normally) ---- yay! 16:20:16 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 16:21:45 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 16:21:45 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:22:00 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 16:22:37 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 16:23:53 in sbcl, is it faster to :adjustable t + vector-push-extend, or (coerce (reverse collected-list) sequence-type)? 16:24:47 harag [n=Harag@196.2.113.79] has joined #lisp 16:24:52 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit ["leaving"] 16:25:17 i was under the impression that vector-push-extend is faster, but they're just about the same for '(unsigned-byte 8) elements; doesn't matter whether I collect the elements one by one into a list and coerce that to a vector, or do everything as a vector right from the start. 16:26:10 fuss: Don't you add work for a later GC when you cons ? 16:26:12 Axius [n=ade@92.85.27.164] has joined #lisp 16:26:13 fusss: do the fill pointer bit yourself and keep a list of exponentially growing vectors, then blit it into a single vector of exactly the right size. 16:26:25 it's just one line of code, in 500, and it's the choke point were 40% of the run time is spent (another 50% goes to TCP/IP connection creation and tear down per function call, but I can remove that with thread pooling) 16:26:55 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-590d2b20.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:27:10 adjustable arrays are total crap in sbcl in general 16:27:26 kuwabara: yes, consing incurs GC penalty, but for the next iteration of the test; that's why one run of 1M requests takes 5 seconds, and the other takes 50 ;-) 16:27:29 For extra points, use a pool for the temporary vectors (and store them in a dx fixed length (e.g. 20ish entries) vector). 16:27:30 vector-push-extend is particularly crap 16:27:50 pkhuong: acronymexpand-1 dx 16:27:55 dynamic extent. 16:28:32 what kind of data are you processing? 16:28:44 pkhuong: I got that 20ish entries bit from arnesi:parse-csv-string as well, is that a magic number or something? 16:28:58 jsnell: database protocol for Redis 16:29:21 one line of control in ascii, followed by a variable length octet array 16:29:33 it would be nice to make them less crap; what would it take? MORE WIDETAGS? 16:29:34 ok. is there a "typical" length for one of these arrays? 16:29:48 Xof: and type system hacking 16:29:50 If you start with buffers of ~1KB and double at each iteration, 20 entries is enough to fill a 32 bit address space. 16:30:05 probably just making v-p-e not go through full make-array? 16:30:12 acrid [n=mckay@204.126.146.202] has joined #lisp 16:30:14 how much memory is needed to recompile sbcl? my vps server kills off the compile 16:30:14 I can do the type system hacking. I can't magically make appear more widetag space 16:30:15 Xof: or CSE. 16:30:19 Haplo_ pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/90582 16:30:24 pkhuong: do you mean LIH? 16:30:41 huh 16:30:44 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:30:45 urxvt has embedded perl 16:30:49 I can never remember how compilers work 16:30:51 why not embedded lisp? 16:30:51 Xof, froydnj: the problem is that there's no way to express a "non-simple but not displaced" array 16:30:55 Xof: right, more like loop invariants. 16:31:01 nyef: would this look appropriated ? 16:31:08 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 16:31:21 Xof: What's the problem with more tags? 16:31:21 probably by parsing and converting to assembly 16:31:26 thats the easy way 16:32:23 oh, there's more space than I remember 16:32:39 we have 7 spare tags on x86-64 16:32:40 jsnell: oh, you want to go all the way to inlining v-p-e? 16:32:46 fusss: could also just be that I'm a confounding variable here. 16:33:08 Xof: I've got my mittens on one already (: 16:33:08 pkhuong: no worries :-) 16:33:10 Xof: huh, I thought we had less than that too 16:33:21 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:33:25 pkhuong: people who don't commit stuff in a timely fashion may lose their widetags 16:33:51 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 16:33:51 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@93-62-254-109.ip25.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 16:33:51 froydnj: no, but for v-p-e to be useful the basic accessors for adjustable arrays should not suck 16:34:01 If you find some use for all of them, I'll just pun complex double floats ;) 16:34:24 froydnj: who knows, maybe someone's been deleting code while we weren't watching 16:34:25 right now we can't usefully inline a aref or (setf aref) on a non-simple array 16:35:04 whereas if it's a non-displaced array it should be just fetch-data-vector, grab cell? 16:35:25 right 16:36:27 danlei [n=user@82.113.106.145] has joined #lisp 16:37:55 -!- ejs [n=eugen@250-46-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:38:21 ok, there is a way to express non-simple but not displaced: (and array (not (satisfies array-displacement))) 16:38:25 the rest is a SMOP 16:38:30 meh, forgot to thank nikodemus, sydney and xof in my commit message. 16:38:51 that's (and array (not simple-array) (not (satisfies array-displacement))) 16:39:07 and when I say "SMOP" I don't actually mean that 16:39:30 is AI a SMOP? 16:39:33 yeah, ILTWYS"S" 16:39:48 or is SMOP "anything easier than AI" ? 16:39:57 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1167.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:40:21 after the P=NP? challenge, the SMOP=AI? challenge! 16:40:33 "step 1: teach python to do something useful with certain satisfies types" 16:41:27 we already do that 16:41:40 in order to support keywordp 16:41:50 oh, really? cool 16:42:06 this is not as hard as all that, at least the type system hacking 16:42:22 I predict, having said that, that I will try to implement it and get confused because the last time I did anything in this area was 5 years ago 16:42:35 step 1: teach python that t is not the same as :maybe 16:42:39 step 2 is your step 1 16:43:59 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 16:44:44 I OTOH would've said that the runtime and non-type-system compiler parts are really not all that hard ;-) 16:44:52 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 16:45:18 -!- aburrido [n=eldragon@84.79.67.254] has left #lisp 16:45:54 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 16:46:06 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 16:46:09 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@122.173.249.152] has joined #lisp 16:46:09 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 16:46:10 jsnell: well, obviously those bits are easier :) 16:46:27 *Xof* doodles some more 16:47:59 leo2007 [n=leo@soup.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 16:49:09 Krystof [n=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 16:49:25 benny [n=benny@i577A1167.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 16:54:28 sellout [n=greg@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:55:22 Fare: I would say SMOP is anything easier than AI 16:55:59 because AI is, by definition, not a simple matter, the first time through... and probably not even the second 16:56:14 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 16:56:27 maybe we could say an SMOP is non-trivial to do the first time. AI is non-trivial to do the second time. 16:56:37 beauty [n=beauty@83.231.45.206] has joined #lisp 16:56:49 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:56:56 evening 16:57:23 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 16:59:04 beauty in #lisp? When I first tried Lisp, I thought I'd find beauty, but I mostly found a lot of ugly kluges. 16:59:57 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 17:00:08 ugly hacks? 17:00:09 reality is a lot of ugly kluges. 17:00:29 Fare: are we your ugly kluges? 17:00:42 thus any program that deals with reality will mirror those kluges 17:00:43 like government types: worst, except for all the others 17:00:50 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:01:58 *madnificent* hates that argument about governments. Foolishly incorrect and yet people take it 17:02:01 -!- beauty [n=beauty@83.231.45.206] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:02:57 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 17:03:18 beauty [n=beauty@83.231.78.132] has joined #lisp 17:03:23 wb beach 17:03:26 wb beauty 17:03:35 apologies beach 17:03:37 hi madnificent :)) 19:20:35 ccl-logbot [n=ccl-logb@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 19:20:35 19:20:35 -!- names: ccl-logbot acieroid luis foom schme peddie_ qebab gruseom Nshag antoszka billitch Dodek rsynnott drewc puchacz syamajala ASau jleija |Soulman| Guest48442 voidpointer Jasko2 gonzojive_ liron` ErikaHayley lhz fiveop dnolen coyo Odin- moah ahaas loxs dysinger ziga` kejsaren Davidbrcz Lycurgus xristos sayyestolife ruediger slyrus_ grouzen snearch_ pr trittweiler ikki Sumpen legumbre bobbysmith007 ryepup drwho Athas hugod kuwabara borism_ pavelludiq 19:20:35 -!- names: c|mell plan9 blackened` TDT LiamH dmiles_afk ignas benny dlowe arabesca 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[n=herbie@u15287329.onlinehome-server.com] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:33:35 perhaps interesting for 2d math expressions.. 15:33:41 xristos [n=nx@204.8.46.227] has joined #lisp 15:33:43 housel` [n=nnnnuser@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has joined #lisp 15:33:52 Madsy [n=Madsy@ti0207a340-0138.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 15:33:55 -!- robewald_ [n=robert@105.81-167-153.customer.lyse.net] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:33:55 -!- nyef [n=nyef@pool-71-161-71-17.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:33:55 -!- Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:33:55 -!- fatalnix1995 [n=Fatalnix@spirit.georgix.info] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:33:55 -!- Wombatzu` [n=user@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:33:55 -!- z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net 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[n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 15:43:01 z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #lisp 15:43:18 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-147-207.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:44:04 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Client Quit] 15:44:07 c|mell [n=cmell@79.126.200.181] has joined #lisp 15:45:22 alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 15:45:25 -!- Madsy [n=Madsy@ti0207a340-0138.bb.online.no] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:45:52 Madsy [n=Madsy@fu/coder/madsy] has joined #lisp 15:46:14 does anyone have any spare time today to look at the sbcl HEAD windows build failure? 15:46:20 ejs [n=eugen@27-98-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 15:47:10 The tools-for-build/grovel-target-whatever thing? 15:47:27 pragma_ [n=pragma@blackshell.com] has joined #lisp 15:47:40 schaf [n=6adameit@rzdspc10.informatik.uni-hamburg.de] has joined #lisp 15:47:45 rvirding [n=chatzill@192.165.65.245] has joined #lisp 15:47:55 -!- pragma_ is now known as Guest76009 15:48:23 *_deepfire* ponders a powerful cpu/watt -effective machine for buildslavery purposes 15:48:34 -!- nyef_ is now known as nyef 15:49:02 <_deepfire> a win32 buildslave would be rather nice 15:49:12 Sumpen [n=Sumpen@78-72-33-106-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 15:49:41 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 15:50:05 <_deepfire> are there organisations donating VMs to opensource projects? 15:50:06 nyef: no, I think it's simpler than that: a header defines boolean, and so do we 15:50:10 Yes. 15:50:35 But it's patched around in the runtime, so it's just the groveller that needs "fixing". 15:50:37 yacin [n=yacin@tyr.gtisc.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 15:50:47 Alternately, perhaps we shouldn't define boolean? 15:50:58 if someone can get me a plausible patch in the next couple of hours, I can release sbcl-1.0.33 today; if not, it won't happen until Wednesday 15:51:30 I'm bringing up a build-capable win32 vm now. 15:52:04 thanks 15:52:12 minimal patches preferred for now 15:52:18 we should probably clean up our boolean act after 1.0.33 15:52:34 Hrm. Okay, can't use this tree, it's got interrupt damage all over it. 15:53:04 jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-31-53-58.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:54:44 -!- KingNato [n=patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [] 15:58:20 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:59:11 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-106-111.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:00:37 moocow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has joined #lisp 16:02:03 <_deepfire> Hmm, looks like hitting C-c when the core is within WITHOUT-GCING isn't such a good idea in 1.0.32.14 16:02:31 pok [i=pok@tarrant.klingenberg.no] has joined #lisp 16:02:38 <_deepfire> Gets me into ldb on x86-32/linux. 16:02:44 Reliably? 16:02:47 <_deepfire> Yes.. 16:03:00 <_deepfire> Shall I update? 16:03:38 <_deepfire> nyef, heavy lh-usb hammering is the context.. 16:03:54 Probably, especially given that we're due for a release either in a few hours or on Wednesday. 16:04:13 *_deepfire* obeys 16:06:14 demmeln1 [n=Adium@129.187.176.158] has joined #lisp 16:06:55 _deepfire pasted "for 1.0.32.14" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91163 16:07:14 <_deepfire> ..while it builds 16:07:18 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 16:07:47 arabesca [n=arabesca@83.231.112.123] has joined #lisp 16:07:55 Okay, trying a win32 build again, this time without sb-thread enabled via c-t-f. 16:09:00 _deepfire: Hunh. You're entering the debugger, which pulls a backtrace, which conses, which runs out of memory because it can't GC. 16:09:07 afternoon 16:10:12 (Really, this is an argument against running your debugger in the same heap.) 16:10:43 Why do you even have GC disabled? 16:10:55 <_deepfire> nyef, ioctl.. 16:11:15 What host platform? 16:11:21 Oh, x86-32. 16:11:21 <_deepfire> linux/x86-32 16:11:39 Just bloody pin the objects if you're worried, don't lock out the GC. 16:12:23 -!- Soulman [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:12:39 <_deepfire> The problem is that it needs to be realtime-ish -- if I send a read request to a USB device, but won't read it out soon after that, I lose. 16:13:35 Oh, you're worried about the device timing out over a sequence involving multiple requests? 16:14:15 <_deepfire> Basically, yes. 16:14:16 -!- demmeln [n=Adium@001cb3c457d3.dfn.mwn.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:14:24 <_deepfire> Taking away GC lockout breaks it. 16:14:40 Okay, in that case, lock out interrupts as well? 16:15:07 -!- plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:15:19 ... There's some dependency here that I'm forgetting, I just know it. 16:16:36 <_deepfire> Won't locking out interrupts take away the ability to C-c from the user? 16:17:12 <_deepfire> Or they are just queued until after they are reenabled? 16:17:23 They're queued. 16:17:34 <_deepfire> Thanks! 16:17:44 It's like a CLI / STI pair in ASM. It just masks, and the interrupts are level-triggered. 16:17:58 <_deepfire> So it's not a bug? 16:18:22 It's user error, but there might be a bug that the error highlighted. 16:18:32 I'm going to have to think about it a bit. 16:18:59 -!- maus [n=maus@222.253.99.233] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:20:00 <_deepfire> On the good news, I got an ack from my boss to opensource the JTAG debugger I wrote. 16:21:20 Xof: Build failure reproduced, proceeding to testing a possible fix. 16:24:09 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@192.165.65.245] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.5/20091102152451]"] 16:24:13 -!- colin_ [n=colin@118-169-47-198.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:26:50 First smoke test completed: grovel-headers compiled without incident. 16:26:52 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 16:26:57 Waiting on full build. 16:27:52 <_deepfire> Ok, with (without-interrupts (without-gcing it doesn't blow up on 32.38. 16:27:57 nyef pasted "For Xof: The win32 build fix I'm trying" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91167 16:28:05 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-98-217-241-153.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:28:23 <_deepfire> But the delay after C-c takes action is about a second. 16:28:44 How long is your USB transaction sequence? 16:28:47 -!- SIMONA-PC [n=SIMONA-P@92.27.0.110] has quit [Client Quit] 16:28:57 <_deepfire> Whereas the protected sections run in about less than a millisecond. 16:28:58 And you can explicitly poll for interrupts if you want. 16:29:46 <_deepfire> Ok, it still breaks. 16:30:19 <_deepfire> Further C-c interruptions were taking progressively more time, with the last taking ~5 sec 16:30:21 How about without-interrupts but not without-gcing? 16:31:01 I'm tempted to suggest "don't do that then" as a solution for your SIGINT woes. 16:31:38 _deepfire annotated #91163 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91163#1 16:32:31 Something seems -odd- about that backtrace. 16:33:32 <_deepfire> it's recurrent, for one 16:34:40 <_deepfire> Also, it appears that C-c events are sometimes (%30) missed. 16:34:41 I'd actually wonder if they're the same frame address... 16:35:30 Oh, good. host-two already. 16:36:29 Ah, and an easy way to speed up compilation: Minimize the emacs window running the build. 16:36:48 snearch [n=olaf@g225055198.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:37:57 -!- adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-48-219.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:38:31 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 16:38:43 didi [n=user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 16:38:50 byef, and run compilation on a memory disk 16:38:52 <_deepfire> The progressive elongation of the time SBCL takes to react to C-c is present when I disable both of WI-GC and WI-IN 16:39:17 <_deepfire> (But then at some point the device barfs on me due to violated timeouts, so I cannot lead it to ldb) 16:39:53 <_deepfire> Hmm. 16:40:15 *_deepfire* looks at cffi:with-pointer-to-vector-data 16:40:21 Younder: Having trouble with your #\n key? 16:41:04 nyef, yes sorry nyef, that is the second time 16:41:50 <_deepfire> Hmm, just a W-P-O, as expected. 16:42:19 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 16:42:19 -!- jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-31-53-58.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:42:28 <_deepfire> So why the progressive elongation? I assume it is a sign of a growing heap. 16:42:47 -!- snearch [n=olaf@g225055198.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 16:43:13 -!- ejs [n=eugen@27-98-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:43:14 At this point I'd consider asking on the list. 16:43:41 dnolen [n=dnolen@ppp-70-249-156-223.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 16:44:01 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:44:35 jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-29-255-118.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:45:45 look.. to speed up compilation run SBCL on a memory disk and redirect output to /dev/null. Much of the time is spendt outputting irrelevant drivel 16:46:04 snearch_ [n=olaf@g225055198.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:46:39 -!- varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 16:46:41 <_deepfire> Younder, if you were to to read the log, the output was actually a required component of testing the build itself. 16:46:50 Sure, except that I'm looking for build errors. 16:46:55 wakeup^ [n=wakeup@koln-5d814f71.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:46:57 hiho 16:47:18 So merely eliminating the realtime display update while still recording the output is sufficient. 16:47:24 how do I create a directory in common lisp, does not have to be portable, only work on linux/unix 16:47:27 ? 16:47:50 And since this is a win32 build dumping to cygwin emacs on cygwin X, minimzing the emacs window provides a -huge- speedup, since it's not waiting for rendering time. 16:47:55 _deepfire, and if you encounter a problem output it. But not for every library 16:48:00 wakeup^, sb-posix:mkdir on sbcl. 16:48:02 <_deepfire> I with I could produce a backtrace without disabled gc and interrupts, but the device won't let me. 16:48:07 -!- demmeln1 [n=Adium@129.187.176.158] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:48:20 clhs e-d-e 16:48:31 jtza8 [n=jtza8@iburst-41-213-65-18.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:48:33 Must be on target-2, getting a bunch of redefinition-with-defgeneric style-warnings. 16:48:55 i meant ensure-directory-exist 16:49:05 specbot: wake up! 16:49:06 nyef: sounds good 16:49:12 Right, the bots disappeared over the irc server reboot. I'll deal with it. 16:49:25 tic: thx, any idea what it is in clisp? 16:49:33 wakeup^: ensure-directories-exist is portable 16:49:33 wakeup^: ensure-directory-exist 16:49:35 -!- lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:49:50 sounds cool :> 16:50:47 ah 16:50:48 wtf 16:51:00 trailing "/" ? 16:51:06 this is a perfectly fine function why dont I get this in google 16:51:07 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has quit [] 16:51:18 Xof: Okay, build done. Only failed contrib is sb-simple-streams, as usual. Anything in particular I should test, or is this "good enough"? 16:52:03 akamaus [n=maus@78.31.79.185] has joined #lisp 16:52:14 that's good enough for me 16:52:17 thank you 16:52:25 would you like to commit it? 16:54:17 metawilm [n=user@e179149199.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:54:48 I can't "overload" a generic function, right? 16:55:10 you can define methods on gfs 16:55:25 <_deepfire> jtza8, what do you want, precisely? 16:56:22 I'd like to define two methods with the same name on separate objects with differing arguments. 16:57:06 Would I have to name them differently then? 16:57:08 Krystof: Okay, prepping the commit now. 16:57:09 lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 16:57:18 jtza8: the number of required arguments should be the same 16:57:25 Ok 16:57:30 and learn you some CLOS 16:57:38 Thought so, thanks. 16:57:46 Yep 16:57:50 minion: Keene? 16:57:52 Nope, can't (or shouldn't attempt to) do it. Functions that do different things should have different names. One of the tradeoffs of subtle dynamic typing. 16:58:09 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 16:58:18 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@93-62-254-107.ip25.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 16:58:44 minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 16:58:51 specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 16:59:01 hefner, except methods pehaps? 16:59:03 clhs e-d-e 16:59:04 ENSURE-DIRECTORIES-EXIST: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_ensu_1.htm 16:59:14 Right, that's working. 16:59:37 Krystof: committed. 17:00:11 <_deepfire> jtza8, you can have different keyword arguments used by different methods. 17:00:25 <_deepfire> jtza8, you can also have optional arguments 17:01:00 Younder: if it isn't clear, I'm implying that methods on a generic function should do related things. Not the exact same thing, obviously, but it shouldn't be a random grab bag coincidentally related because they happened to have compatible lambda lists. 17:01:39 hefner, agreed 17:03:01 hefner, like print or read, not parse-ardwark-file 17:04:18 _deepfire: Yep, thanks for being helpful. :) 17:05:52 hefner, except it's print-object and there is no euivalent for read... 17:06:50 equivalent 17:06:51 jtza8: for different arguments you could probably define the gf so that it would have keyword or &rest arguments 17:07:19 it's just that all methods on generic function must have the same signature 17:07:56 And you can't dispatch on keyword argument types. 17:08:39 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 17:08:46 katchaFire [n=katcha@bas33-4-88-180-245-209.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:09:54 -!- katchaFire [n=katcha@bas33-4-88-180-245-209.fbx.proxad.net] has left #lisp 17:10:18 nyef: well, I got an image where he wanted something like (method args-for-object1) and (method args-for-object2) :) 17:10:40 Well the keywords are all in :keyword so you could 17:10:46 Yeah, just figured it was worth mentioning. 17:12:20 jtza8: if you have problems transitioning to CLOS from "typical" object systems, like I had, for some reason I found that Haskell typeclasses are great learning tool 17:13:41 Tordek_ [n=tordek@host103.190-137-185.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 17:14:03 sctb [n=sctb@S01060016cbc2d41a.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:14:18 After a while CLOS seems to have got it right. The rest have got it wrong. I love the seperation of methods from classes. 17:14:56 adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-48-219.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 17:15:57 Thanks p_l, I'll have a look at those. 17:16:10 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-216-21-95.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:16:12 makes things more 'friend'ly 17:16:22 Hehe 17:17:07 I wonder if someone wrote a CLOS/MOP tool to check if a given type implements a "protocol" (as in CLIM protocols etc.) 17:17:27 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host137.190-231-49.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:19:26 timor [n=martin@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 17:22:32 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-71-163-162-204.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:25:28 -!- jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-29-255-118.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:25:34 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@72-255-3-76.client.stsn.net] has quit [] 17:25:39 -!- sacker [n=sacker@c-69-180-204-126.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:27:02 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.106.70] has left #lisp 17:27:26 Joreji [n=thomas@46-247.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 17:28:03 jewel [n=jewel@vc-41-29-166-16.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:29:03 ejs [n=eugen@231-80-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 17:29:06 -!- ejs [n=eugen@231-80-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:33:06 Elench [n=jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has joined #lisp 17:33:54 dv___ [n=dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 17:34:25 -!- m4thrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:34:34 m4thrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 17:38:41 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-552-1-40-235.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:39:04 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [] 17:39:36 -!- Guest65372 is now known as xristos 17:40:48 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has quit ["leaving"] 17:40:56 -!- pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:42:01 -!- didi [n=user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:43:03 -!- spec[away] [n=Spec@89.74.179.78] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:44:06 pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 17:44:34 -!- pkhuong is now known as Guest50434