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2018-01-15T00:02:42Z pillton: Probably. I don't know of any.
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2018-01-15T00:03:20Z pillton: Personally, I would just write everything to a temporary file and process the temporary file.
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2018-01-15T00:04:30Z pillton: It can be done with a single thread and there is no possibility of starvation/deadlock.
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2018-01-15T01:15:14Z White_Flame: in terms of wanting (defconstant +fixed-list+ '(a b c)), since the list value is not the clhs-same as the prior read list value, what's the preferred way around it?
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2018-01-15T01:15:52Z White_Flame: one would be to keep it in a file that isn't easily reloaded, another would be to wrap defconstant in a macro that tests if the constant is unbound before doing DEFCONSTANT
2018-01-15T01:16:37Z White_Flame: the problem being that when editing & recompiling, the constant differs in sameness and throws errors
2018-01-15T01:16:42Z Xach: White_Flame: alexandria:define-constant is a very very short macro that does that.
2018-01-15T01:16:49Z Xach: a check for boundp, that is
2018-01-15T01:17:03Z White_Flame: right, we wrote one, too.  Just hit it again, and polling what the preference is
2018-01-15T01:17:22Z White_Flame: smells like checking bound is the way to go, if it's common enough for alexandria (which we still haven't fully migrated to :-P)
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2018-01-15T01:19:30Z Xach: I personally use defvar instead.
2018-01-15T01:19:42Z White_Flame: but muh optimizations!!11 ;)
2018-01-15T01:20:20Z White_Flame: but srsly, I am working on very old code, so constraints are good
2018-01-15T01:20:22Z pierpa: just don't use defconstant for non-atomic values
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2018-01-15T01:20:34Z pagnol: has anyone here read "Object-Oriented Programming in COMMON LISP" by Sonya Keene?
2018-01-15T01:20:41Z Xach: pagnol: I have read it.
2018-01-15T01:20:53Z pagnol: do you recommend it? I'm wondering if I should get a copy
2018-01-15T01:21:07Z Xach: pagnol: it is a good tutorial introduction
2018-01-15T01:21:21Z pagnol: Does it discuss the MOP?
2018-01-15T01:21:40Z Xach: pagnol: I don't recall. I don't think so.
2018-01-15T01:23:00Z pagnol: Is AMOP really the only book that covers the MOP?
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2018-01-15T01:23:57Z Xach: pagnol: Hmm, I'm not sure. It's considered a kind of reference work.
2018-01-15T01:24:13Z Xach: I would someday like to try using MOP stuff but so far have skipped it.
2018-01-15T01:24:26Z Bike: i don't know of any books that cover it.
2018-01-15T01:25:01Z Bike: part of it is that amop isn't even a reference, it's written like "hey, we could design clos to work like this. wouldn't that be cool? still kind of a work in progress" but then it gets used as a reference anyway.
2018-01-15T01:25:24Z Xach: that sounds partly like the story of Self
2018-01-15T01:25:29Z pagnol: Self?
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2018-01-15T01:25:41Z Xach: pagnol: a programming language.
2018-01-15T01:25:44Z pagnol: ah
2018-01-15T01:26:05Z Xach: reminds me because the story of self is kind of like "here's what we want the language to be like, let's work relentlessly to make it fast enough to be practical"
2018-01-15T01:26:17Z Bike: lots of parts of mop are actually kind of loony, which more design probably could have worked out
2018-01-15T01:26:30Z Bike: the parts people actually use are mostly fine, though
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2018-01-15T01:28:01Z pagnol: Bike, which parts seem loony to you?
2018-01-15T01:28:12Z Bike: make-method-lambda is a big one
2018-01-15T01:28:16Z Bike: pcos even wrote a paper on it
2018-01-15T01:28:40Z Bike: But most of the reason people use mop is to interrogate classes, rather than methods or generic functions. and the metaclass stuff is pretty solid.
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2018-01-15T01:29:08Z Bike: i managed to write something that mimicked a python library with class annotations and such like in like, a day. pretty good
2018-01-15T01:30:44Z pagnol: Bike, is it on Github or somewhere else?
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2018-01-15T01:30:50Z Bike: the thing i wrote?
2018-01-15T01:30:52Z pagnol: yes
2018-01-15T01:31:03Z Bike: yeah it's... somewhere. let me see if i can't find it for you.
2018-01-15T01:31:16Z pagnol: I'm looking for some MOP sample code that I can study
2018-01-15T01:31:30Z Bike: https://github.com/clasp-developers/cl-jupyter/blob/master/src/cl-jupyter-widgets/iwidgets/widgets/traitlets.lisp here you go.
2018-01-15T01:31:34Z Bike: ignore the stuff with cljw:
2018-01-15T01:31:49Z Bike: the comment on top explains most of it... basically it adds some things to slot definitions
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2018-01-15T01:45:11Z pagnol: Bike, what does the #+(or) do?
2018-01-15T01:45:21Z Bike: makes the reader skip the nxt form
2018-01-15T01:45:24Z pagnol: I am new to Lisp in case that's not too obvious already
2018-01-15T01:45:26Z pagnol: ah
2018-01-15T01:45:28Z Bike: clhs #+
2018-01-15T01:45:28Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhq.htm
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2018-01-15T02:08:32Z White_Flame: (and) is true, (or) is false in computer-boolean speak
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2018-01-15T02:08:57Z White_Flame: AND keeps testing to see if it hits something false, so it can drop out, default to true if nothing tripped that test
2018-01-15T02:09:17Z White_Flame: OR does the opposite, early exiting if it hits something true, defaulting to false if none is found
2018-01-15T02:10:15Z White_Flame: the #+ and #- reader macros are sortakinda like IFDEF from C's preprocessor, including or excluding the following form based on the boolean expression
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2018-01-15T02:10:49Z White_Flame: so things like #+sbcl (sb-ext:something) #+clisp (something-else) will include a custom expression per implementation
2018-01-15T02:11:01Z aeth: Those aren't the only ones with defaults. (*) is 1 and (+) is 0
2018-01-15T02:11:19Z fiddlerwoaroof_: #+ and #- are a bit tricky when you're writing a reader macro
2018-01-15T02:11:27Z White_Flame: because the symbols SBCL and CLISP are in the variable *FEATURES* on their respective plaform. #+/#- searches that list
2018-01-15T02:11:29Z aeth: It's actually interesting to see things with 0 arguments that can only be 0-argument in a non-infix language
2018-01-15T02:11:44Z fiddlerwoaroof_: As far as I can tell, your reader macro function gets called but its output is ignored
2018-01-15T02:11:58Z Bike: indeed so.
2018-01-15T02:12:04Z fiddlerwoaroof_: So, if you depend on something system-dependent, you're in for a bad time
2018-01-15T02:12:06Z White_Flame: right, it has to know to consume the next form, hence it has to run the reader
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2018-01-15T02:12:18Z Bike: your reader macro function can check read-suppress and do jack shit properly
2018-01-15T02:12:20Z fiddlerwoaroof_: It makes sense, it's just surprising the first time you encounter it
2018-01-15T02:12:24Z White_Flame: so don't side effect in macros, reader or otherwise
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2018-01-15T02:13:36Z aeth: Writing a reader macro that returns a lambda is an interesting solution
2018-01-15T02:14:48Z fiddlerwoaroof_: In my case, the problem was ccl would complain when it tried to read SB-SYS:SYSTEM-AREA-POINTER
2018-01-15T02:15:24Z fiddlerwoaroof_: Hmm, that wasn't it, I wonder what it was...
2018-01-15T02:16:12Z fiddlerwoaroof_: Ah, yeah, I was using destructuring-bind on the result of read-delimited-list and getting nil
2018-01-15T02:16:16Z fiddlerwoaroof_: Which was surprising
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2018-01-15T03:25:39Z pillton: Bike: Why is make-method-lambda loony? I thought it was needed for call-next-method.
2018-01-15T03:26:07Z Bike: consider having a file with (defgeneric foo ...) and then (defmethod foo ...)
2018-01-15T03:26:29Z Bike: did you know that if you compile this file, the generic function will be defined by the defmethod at macroexpansion time, so that make-method-lambda can be used?
2018-01-15T03:26:45Z pillton: Yes.
2018-01-15T03:26:52Z Bike: well, that's loony
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2018-01-15T03:27:04Z Bike: and it's not the only possible solution to do call-next-method
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2018-01-15T03:29:17Z pillton: I don't really see the difference between that and a type being made available when compiling a defclass.
2018-01-15T03:29:29Z pillton: A generic function might disallow call-next-method.
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2018-01-15T03:30:23Z Bike: the difference is that the definition still comes from the defclass
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2018-01-15T03:31:28Z Bike: anyway, that's just a weird tidbit, the actual problem is that make-method-lambda lets you control the exact form of the method functions, except nobody seems to really support that super well
2018-01-15T03:31:58Z Bike: like, you can have a method function that takes more than two arguments, but how do you call it? call-method? call-method already has contradictory definitions between the mop and clhs
2018-01-15T03:32:05Z Bike: and the mop's isn't very specific or explicit
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2018-01-15T03:32:38Z pillton: Oh wait. The defmethod creates another function object which may be different to the one specified by the previous defgeneric.
2018-01-15T03:32:41Z pillton: ?
2018-01-15T03:33:00Z Bike: yes, the defgeneric has to reinitialize the generic probably
2018-01-15T03:33:13Z pillton: Oh. That is dumb.
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2018-01-15T03:33:50Z Bike: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/38b2/39e630294c2020c1de7815e0bd1f9261e508.pdf here, just read this, cos does more mop shit than i ever will
2018-01-15T03:34:01Z Bike: though i'm not totally on board with his alternative either
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2018-01-15T03:35:35Z pillton: I made it an error in specialization-store to define "methods" for a non existent "generic" function.
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2018-01-15T03:36:00Z pillton: I'll have a read during the week.
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2018-01-15T03:36:15Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2018-01-15T03:36:19Z Bike: that seems like it's probably required by your less dynamic system
2018-01-15T03:36:28Z Bike: clos pretty much lets you redefine anything whenever you friggin want
2018-01-15T03:37:02Z beach: pillton: Are you planning to submit an article, perhaps about specialization-store, to ELS?
2018-01-15T03:38:11Z pillton: I was going to but I had a third child.
2018-01-15T03:38:23Z beach: Oh!
2018-01-15T03:38:27Z pillton: Well, my wife did.
2018-01-15T03:38:32Z beach: Congratulations, I guess!
2018-01-15T03:39:10Z pillton: Maybe next year. Who knows.
2018-01-15T03:40:15Z beach: Sure.  Never too late.  Barring disasters from global climate change, or course.
2018-01-15T03:40:57Z pillton: The other benefit you get for signalling an error for non existent generic functions is that the syntax layer can also become parameterised by the function object.
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2018-01-15T03:45:08Z pillton: For example, the processing of new class options to defclass should be done by the metaclass. I don't think that is the case at present.
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2018-01-15T03:45:51Z Bike: i think they're all quoted
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2018-01-15T03:46:01Z pillton: Yeah, which is silly.
2018-01-15T03:46:13Z Bike: which is a little annoying, it's true. i wanted to do something funny with methods but the extra initargs are all quoted and it stymied me
2018-01-15T03:46:19Z Bike: slot definitions are probably the messiest part though
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2018-01-15T05:23:32Z pillton: Bike: Could this be the reason you have to specify the method combinator as well?
2018-01-15T05:24:12Z Bike: hwhat?
2018-01-15T05:24:19Z Bike: what's a method combinator
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2018-01-15T05:24:55Z Bike: specify when
2018-01-15T05:24:59Z pillton: (defmethod foo append (...) ...)
2018-01-15T05:25:08Z Bike: those are qualifiers
2018-01-15T05:25:14Z pillton: Oh sorry.
2018-01-15T05:25:27Z Bike: i'm not sure what you mean by "have to specify"
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2018-01-15T05:26:02Z pillton: If you specify the append method combinator in the generic function, why do you need to do it again in the method definition?
2018-01-15T05:26:30Z Bike: oh, no, that's just because that's how the append method combination is defined.
2018-01-15T05:26:53Z Bike: the method qualifiers aren't really relevant until a method combination is actually done, and that might be as late as when youc all the generic function
2018-01-15T05:26:56Z Bike: anyway night
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2018-01-15T05:28:07Z pillton: Night.
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2018-01-15T05:43:29Z jmercouris: I'm trying to understand pathnames
2018-01-15T05:43:45Z jmercouris: and I don't get why nesting a merge pathname doesn't result in a longer path
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2018-01-15T05:45:02Z jmercouris: (merge-pathnames (merge-pathnames (uiop:xdg-config-home) #p"salmon") #p"lol")
2018-01-15T05:45:05Z jmercouris: #P"/Users/jmercouris/.config/salmon"
2018-01-15T05:45:14Z jmercouris: why wouldn't that produce .config/salmon/lol?
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2018-01-15T05:45:37Z pillton: (merge-pathnames #p"salmon" (uiop:xdg-config-home))
2018-01-15T05:46:01Z pillton: And it should be "salmon/"
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2018-01-15T05:46:26Z jmercouris: so the first arg gets appended?
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2018-01-15T05:47:20Z jmercouris: thank you, I had the order wrong for some reason
2018-01-15T05:47:27Z jmercouris: I was using it wrong for so many months now
2018-01-15T05:48:08Z jmercouris: it now makes sense why my first one wouldnt work, there is no root dir lol/
2018-01-15T05:48:08Z pillton: Read the paragraph starting with "Pathname merging treats a relative directory specially."
2018-01-15T05:48:11Z pillton: clhs merge-pathnames
2018-01-15T05:48:11Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_merge_.htm
2018-01-15T05:49:05Z jmercouris: ok, I just read it
2018-01-15T05:49:24Z pillton: You also have to remember that common lisp pathnames discriminate between files and directories regardless of what the OS thinks.
2018-01-15T05:50:31Z pillton: So #p"salmon" is equivalent to (make-pathname :name "salmon") which is not (make-pathname :directory '(:relative "salmon")).
2018-01-15T05:51:00Z jmercouris: why do we hvae make-pathname, and pathname?
2018-01-15T05:51:39Z pillton: Pathname accepts pathname-designators.
2018-01-15T05:51:57Z jmercouris: and make-pathname accepts strings it seems
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2018-01-15T05:56:05Z jmercouris: alright, so my function works: https://gist.github.com/bea205432895183d84e6a42f46215b28
2018-01-15T05:56:12Z jmercouris: but I feel like I did something dirty here
2018-01-15T05:56:40Z jmercouris: it's supposed to make a file relative to ~/.config/next/, so if you pass (xdg-data-home "fish") it will point to ~/.config/next/fish
2018-01-15T05:56:49Z jmercouris: and it works, but I feel as if I am abusing the functions
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2018-01-15T06:02:04Z pillton: I usually do (defvar *foo-data-directory* (merge-pathnames ...)) and then (defun foo-data-path (in) (merge-pathnames in *foo-data-directory*)).
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2018-01-15T06:04:34Z jmercouris: I see
2018-01-15T06:04:49Z jmercouris: Is there any advantage to that/
2018-01-15T06:04:59Z jmercouris: s/\/?
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2018-01-15T06:06:19Z pillton: Well, if you are nice, the variables would go in a foo-config.asd system which would allow the user to configure the pathnames before loading foo.asd.
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2018-01-15T06:06:38Z pillton: You are essentially hard coding.
2018-01-15T06:07:08Z jmercouris: wait a second, I didn't even know this was possible to set variables in an asd
2018-01-15T06:07:12Z jmercouris: this changes a lot of things
2018-01-15T06:07:47Z jmercouris: pillton: do you have an example I may look at?
2018-01-15T06:07:59Z jmercouris: I don't want to be mean to my users, believe me :D
2018-01-15T06:08:11Z pillton: The variables don't go in the asd. I meant that you create a foo-config system which loads a lisp file containing the variables.
2018-01-15T06:09:44Z jmercouris: and so what exactly? My system will depend on this system?
2018-01-15T06:09:50Z pillton: Yes.
2018-01-15T06:09:54Z jmercouris: what if this system does not exist on the user's machine?
2018-01-15T06:10:10Z pillton: You put it in the same directory as the system.
2018-01-15T06:10:17Z pillton: e.g. https://github.com/markcox80/specialization-store/blob/master/specialization-store.asd#L4
2018-01-15T06:10:36Z pillton: There are two asd files in that project.
2018-01-15T06:10:52Z pillton: ASDF supports multiple systems per asd file.
2018-01-15T06:11:08Z mfiano: except there is a bug currently regarding this
2018-01-15T06:11:09Z jmercouris: pillton: yeah, I have multiple systems in my asd file already
2018-01-15T06:11:23Z jmercouris: so specialization-store-features is your system for configuration
2018-01-15T06:11:31Z mfiano: https://bugs.launchpad.net/asdf/+bug/1739514
2018-01-15T06:11:34Z jmercouris: and you allow the user to set some startup specific variables basically?
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2018-01-15T06:12:22Z pillton: Yes. (Though the example I linked is a system for figuring out what an implementation supports.)
2018-01-15T06:12:34Z jmercouris: Sure, at any rate, is an interesting idea
2018-01-15T06:12:37Z jmercouris: I will have to think about it
2018-01-15T06:12:51Z jmercouris: already the users have enough freedom by being allowed to set xdg home$
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2018-01-15T06:13:12Z jmercouris: it's not like emacs lets you setup your configuration directory anyway :D
2018-01-15T06:14:10Z pillton: We need a defacto standard for configuration in my opinion.
2018-01-15T06:14:28Z pillton: The current situation with respect to shared libraries is ridiculous.
2018-01-15T06:15:01Z jmercouris: well yeah, thats the whole point of xdg
2018-01-15T06:15:21Z jmercouris: I didn't want to implement it as I'd rather have a nice ~/.next.d dir, but I think it is what users want
2018-01-15T06:15:24Z jmercouris: and it is the future
2018-01-15T06:15:40Z jmercouris: pillton: https://specifications.freedesktop.org/basedir-spec/basedir-spec-latest.html
2018-01-15T06:16:32Z pillton: Maybe. It seems Linux specific.
2018-01-15T06:17:31Z jmercouris: That it is, but I'm not targetting windows at the moment
2018-01-15T06:17:41Z jmercouris: it also works on MacOS
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2018-01-15T06:17:52Z jmercouris: I can't speak for all *nix
2018-01-15T06:17:54Z pillton: Anyway, I think this stuff should go in a separate system. That was my point.
2018-01-15T06:18:09Z jmercouris: It's a good point, I'll consider it for the future
2018-01-15T06:18:19Z jmercouris: btw I like your goat picture
2018-01-15T06:18:29Z pillton: It is a donkey I think.
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2018-01-15T06:19:15Z jmercouris: I've seen a lot of donkeys in my life, and that would surprise me if it is one
2018-01-15T06:20:52Z jmercouris: It's definitely a goat, the ears are all wrong for a donkey
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2018-01-15T06:58:27Z borei: hi all
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2018-01-15T07:00:56Z borei: quick question about :before method
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2018-01-15T07:02:12Z borei: i have several classes generic-vector (just vector) --> r-vector (vector with double-float components) and 3d-vector (vector in our 3D space)
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2018-01-15T07:02:43Z borei: i want that 3d-vector will be derivative from r-vector
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2018-01-15T07:02:55Z beach: A subclass you mean?
2018-01-15T07:03:02Z borei: yep
2018-01-15T07:03:10Z beach: What's stopping you?
2018-01-15T07:03:36Z phoe: (defclass generic-vector () ()) (defclass r-vector (generic-vector) ()) (defclass 3d-vector (r-vector) ()) - this is what I understand so far
2018-01-15T07:03:48Z borei: my question is will initialize-instance :before method be proper place to provide space dimension for 3d-vector
2018-01-15T07:03:56Z phoe: (aside from the class slots, obviously)
2018-01-15T07:04:04Z borei: so it will be passed down to r-vector
2018-01-15T07:04:30Z beach: borei: Is the space going to be stored in the instance?
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2018-01-15T07:04:35Z beach: borei: as a slot?
2018-01-15T07:04:37Z borei: yep
2018-01-15T07:04:45Z borei: space will go to generic-vector
2018-01-15T07:04:49Z beach: borei: Then just make it an :initarg in the most general class.
2018-01-15T07:04:51Z borei: space dimension
2018-01-15T07:05:02Z beach: .. and you are done.
2018-01-15T07:05:09Z beach: No need for any :BEFORE methods.
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2018-01-15T07:06:04Z borei: hmm, intersting approach
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2018-01-15T07:06:11Z phoe: I would rather define an INITIALIZE-INSTANCE :AFTER method on GENERIC-VECTOR with a key argument of :SPACE asking either for the vector size, or :VECTOR asking for the array itself.
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2018-01-15T07:06:33Z phoe: This way, you can either setf the vector to the slot, or construct a new vector based on :SPACE.
2018-01-15T07:07:18Z phoe: But that depends on how you want to initialize the generic-vector class, and may depend the most of the array element type of your vectors.
2018-01-15T07:07:49Z phoe: because if you only pass :SPACE, then you have no chance to modify the type of the vector.
2018-01-15T07:08:12Z phoe: so you may actually want to add :SIZE and :TYPE, or just :MAKE-ARRAY-ARGUMENTS for most generality.
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2018-01-15T07:08:51Z borei: wait wait
2018-01-15T07:08:53Z phoe: and (check-type size unsigned-byte) (apply #'make-array size make-array-arguments) in your constructor.
2018-01-15T07:08:59Z phoe: But I'm rambling. :P
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2018-01-15T07:09:23Z borei: don't solve my problem completely :-) left something for me :-)
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2018-01-15T07:09:46Z phoe: woops!
2018-01-15T07:09:48Z phoe: okay~
2018-01-15T07:09:54Z phoe runs off, real life is waiting
2018-01-15T07:10:45Z borei: i didn't get one item (sorry, a bit slow).
2018-01-15T07:11:37Z borei: when i do call make-instance 'vector-3d i don't want to supply space dimension, it's clear from the class type
2018-01-15T07:11:57Z borei: but how do i pass space dimension to parent class ?
2018-01-15T07:12:06Z borei: r-vector in my case
2018-01-15T07:12:26Z borei: that is why i was looking toward :before method
2018-01-15T07:14:33Z phoe: hmm, I see.
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2018-01-15T07:15:35Z phoe: You could try to define an INITIALIZE-INSTANCE method on VECTOR-3D that calls (call-next-method :size 3).
2018-01-15T07:15:42Z phoe: I *think* this should work.
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2018-01-15T07:16:47Z borei: interesting
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2018-01-15T07:17:35Z phoe: This should work since you are allowed to define custom methods on INITIALIZE-INSTANCE.
2018-01-15T07:18:06Z borei: ok, seems like i have several options how to solve my problem
2018-01-15T07:18:48Z phoe: or actually...
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2018-01-15T07:19:05Z phoe: (defclass 3d-vector (r-vector) () (:default-initargs :size 3))
2018-01-15T07:19:37Z phoe: this also appears that it should work, with the additional side effect of making it impossible for the user to supply their own :SIZE.
2018-01-15T07:20:10Z borei: for 3d-vector there is no other sizes other then 3
2018-01-15T07:20:12Z phoe: wait, scratch that side effect,.
2018-01-15T07:20:23Z phoe: I misunderstood the text. No, it doesn't prevent the user.
2018-01-15T07:23:31Z borei: seems like :default-initargs option is exactly what im looking for
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2018-01-15T09:07:56Z schweers: It seems my intuition is misguided here, maybe someone can clarify: how come SORT is marginally faster on a list than on a simple-array?  Both without any type declarations and initially filled with the same random fixnums.
2018-01-15T09:08:12Z schweers: I filled the list with (random most-positive-fixnum) and copied it over to the array
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2018-01-15T09:09:13Z beach: Just guessing, but mergesort is faster than quicksort, and mergesort is easy to implement on a list, but hard on a vector, so typically quicksort is used on vectors instead.
2018-01-15T09:09:42Z Shinmera: schweers: How big are we talking?
2018-01-15T09:10:10Z schweers: 1000000 elements
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2018-01-15T09:11:34Z schweers: okay, I get that different algorithms may be the reason, but, admitting to have quite the gap in my knowledge … is mergesort really faster than quicksort?  I guess not always, right?
2018-01-15T09:11:52Z beach: It is always at least as fast.
2018-01-15T09:12:13Z beach: It always divides the problem exactly in half, which is optimal.
2018-01-15T09:12:15Z Shinmera: If I remember correctly Quicksort has a big problem in choosing the pivot.
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2018-01-15T09:12:31Z beach: Quicksort can be arbitrarily bad depending on how the pivot element is chosen.
2018-01-15T09:12:31Z schweers: ah, I remember, it needs more memory
2018-01-15T09:12:55Z schweers: yes, now I remember.
2018-01-15T09:13:04Z schweers: thanks for the refresher
2018-01-15T09:13:16Z beach: mergesort needs O(n) additional memory (except for recent research that decreases that significantly, at the cost of more operations).
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2018-01-15T09:13:41Z Shinmera: Can't mergesort also be parallelised easily? Though I doubt any implementations do that currently
2018-01-15T09:13:45Z beach: But since the list already contains O(n) additional memory, no more memory is required to use mergesort on a list.
2018-01-15T09:15:23Z beach: The can both be parallelized, because they are both divide-and-conquer, so they both generate two separate problems of around half the size.
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2018-01-15T09:17:02Z beach: The interesting thing I plan to do is to implement mergesort on vectors by checking how much stack space is available and choosing an implementation that is good for that available space.  In the worst case, choose a slower version that uses only O(1) additional memory as recent research shows is possible.
2018-01-15T09:18:51Z schweers: beach: you mentioned that this comes at the cost of more operations.  do you know off the top of your head how much more?
2018-01-15T09:19:21Z beach: I don't remember.  The complexity is still the same as I recall.
2018-01-15T09:19:33Z beach: I can point you to the relevant paper is you are really interested.
2018-01-15T09:20:21Z schweers: only if it’s no trouble.  Don’t invest more than 30 seconds for me.
2018-01-15T09:20:22Z schweers:  
2018-01-15T09:21:08Z beach: Fast Stable Merging and Sorting in Constant Extra Space, by Bing-Chao Huang and Michael A. Langston.
2018-01-15T09:22:06Z schweers: thanks
2018-01-15T09:22:53Z beach: Also: Practical In-place mergesort, by Jyrki Katajainen, Tomi Pasanen, and Jukka Teuhola.
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2018-01-15T09:23:28Z beach: And of course, the references of those articles.
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2018-01-15T09:23:56Z schweers: hmm.  that seems to be from 1992, is that correct?
2018-01-15T09:24:02Z beach: Could be.
2018-01-15T09:24:17Z beach: There might be something more recent.  Go to dl.acm.org and do a forward search.
2018-01-15T09:25:27Z beach: Do you know how to do that?
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2018-01-15T09:25:44Z schweers: found something from 1998, but can’t read it, as I don’t have an acm subscription.
2018-01-15T09:26:13Z beach: It is well worth getting one.  It is not expensive and you get a discount on conferences, sometimes even on ELS.
2018-01-15T09:26:13Z schweers: I have to admit that I’m not quite sure what you meant by “forward search”.  I just used the search bar.
2018-01-15T09:26:40Z beach: For each article entry, there is a "cited by" list.  You find the entry for the article you know about, then you click on that list.  That way you go forward in time.
2018-01-15T09:28:05Z schweers: huh.  up to 136$ … per year, I guess?
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2018-01-15T09:33:58Z TMA: http://akira.ruc.dk/~keld/teaching/algoritmedesign_f04/Artikler/04/Huang88.pdf
2018-01-15T09:35:09Z TMA: funny that this come up a few days ago so that I still had it open
2018-01-15T09:35:16Z TMA: *came
2018-01-15T09:35:19Z beach: schweers: Sounds right.
2018-01-15T09:35:25Z schweers: TMA: I found that one, but still, thanks :)
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2018-01-15T09:35:41Z beach: schweers: One espresso per week.
2018-01-15T09:35:41Z schweers: beach: I first thought it was per month and was a little shocked
2018-01-15T09:35:57Z beach: No, no.  It is not very expensive at all.
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2018-01-15T09:36:31Z schweers: Well, as they ask 15$ for the paper itself, I first assumed the worst.
2018-01-15T09:37:06Z beach: That's what I mean by the membership being worth it.  You win after just a few articles.
2018-01-15T09:37:26Z beach: And it saves time.  Just log in and download the PDF.
2018-01-15T09:37:47Z beach: If you don't want to be a member, sometimes you find PDFs on Google Scholar.
2018-01-15T09:37:50Z Shinmera: There's also sci-hub.
2018-01-15T09:38:28Z beach: I personally like the ACM, so I don't mind supporting them.
2018-01-15T09:38:56Z Shinmera: Sure
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2018-01-15T09:41:17Z jackdaniel: I'm not very impressed by paywalls for articles (given they don't pay scientists for whose papers they charge and which are usually written for money collected in form of taxes)
2018-01-15T09:41:44Z schweers: I wonder how sci-hub can be legal
2018-01-15T09:41:59Z jackdaniel: it isn't
2018-01-15T09:42:06Z jackdaniel: just a matter of jurisdiction
2018-01-15T09:42:07Z beach: It could be worse.  Now, many journals make the authors pay to have the article published, and it is not cheap either.
2018-01-15T09:42:48Z schweers: As I’m not an academic I surely lack insight, but I do wonder how this model could ever arise, let alone stay alive in the digital age
2018-01-15T09:42:49Z beach: I consider the ACM membership fee as paying for the entire digital library service (in addition to getting CACM on paper).
2018-01-15T09:43:40Z beach: schweers: Inertial.  On-line journals need to acquire the same prestige as the established journals owned by the publishing houses.
2018-01-15T09:43:46Z beach: Inertia.
2018-01-15T09:44:50Z schweers: beach: that’s not what I meant (the ACM).  But what I’ve heard from other publishers is that they ask for money left and right (and quite substantial amounts at that) without /seeming/ (am I wrong here, I’d love to know) to provide any real benefit.
2018-01-15T09:44:57Z schweers: Am I completely mistaken here?
2018-01-15T09:45:22Z jackdaniel: imho we have a broken model with this regard
2018-01-15T09:45:22Z beach: No, you are right.  People feel forced to pay for the prestige.
2018-01-15T09:45:28Z beach: Totally.
2018-01-15T09:45:59Z beach: It is only a matter of time.  This is probably why they try to extract as much money as possible before they disappear.
2018-01-15T09:46:00Z TMA: schweers: well, originally it was a journal subscription -- a printed, bound object containing the articles. then there was a service that mailed you a single article. boom, the world went digital -- but the inertia and inflation means you pay for it even though the costs have bottomed.
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2018-01-15T09:47:08Z jackdaniel: schweers: you may be interested in Aaron Swartz story (especially his Guerilla Access Manifesto)
2018-01-15T09:47:09Z schweers: Yes, but aparantly universities pay obscene amounts of money to access their own research.  Anyways, I should be doing other stuff than complaining online ;)
2018-01-15T09:47:27Z schweers: I’ve heard the name before, just can’t pinpoint what he did.
2018-01-15T09:47:54Z jackdaniel: he did many things but sadly he is no longer alive
2018-01-15T09:48:04Z schweers: I know :/
2018-01-15T09:48:10Z schweers: That’s the one thing I remember
2018-01-15T09:48:20Z schweers is reading the wikipedia page on him right now
2018-01-15T09:49:05Z jackdaniel: ftr: https://archive.org/stream/GuerillaOpenAccessManifesto/Goamjuly2008_djvu.txt (sorry for the offtopic)
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2018-01-15T09:51:59Z hajovonta: hi all
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2018-01-15T09:54:25Z beach: Hello hajovonta.
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2018-01-15T10:32:09Z chenbin: can somebody help this sbcl on windows issue? https://pastebin.com/raw/3gAPvJQr     thanks
2018-01-15T10:32:12Z chenbin: https://pastebin.com/raw/3gAPvJQr
2018-01-15T10:33:04Z Shinmera: chenbin: Make sure the SBCL_HOME environment variable isn't set.
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2018-01-15T10:41:35Z beach: Wow, not even a "thank you".
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2018-01-15T10:44:58Z knobo: Which documentation generation system do you use, and which do you think I (or other) should use?
2018-01-15T10:45:29Z beach: Documentation can't be generated.  It has to be written.
2018-01-15T10:45:36Z Shinmera: Documentation isn't generated, you write it. But you can assemble the documentation into a single file with systems like Staple.
2018-01-15T10:45:50Z TMA: beach: the thanks were paid in advance
2018-01-15T10:46:49Z Shinmera looks in his thanks account and finds it empty
2018-01-15T10:46:59Z knobo: sorry... Documentation builder
2018-01-15T10:47:02Z beach: knobo: Perhaps you are thinking of generating documentation from documentation strings?  That technique has the unfortunate consequence that there is no place to put a section about goals, concepts, philosophy, etc.  As a result, the documentation often becomes incomprehensible.
2018-01-15T10:47:23Z Shinmera: beach: Most systems do allow such a place.
2018-01-15T10:47:28Z knobo: beach: Of course I do.
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2018-01-15T10:47:36Z beach: TMA: What do you mean?
2018-01-15T10:47:47Z knobo: I'm not a native english speaker.
2018-01-15T10:47:54Z knobo: But I'm not stupid.
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2018-01-15T10:48:11Z knobo: I know that documentation is not generated by it self from the code.
2018-01-15T10:48:14Z beach: Shinmera: Good.  Now it has to be used as well.
2018-01-15T10:48:54Z Shinmera: knobo: It's not about being stupid or not, some people genuinely believe that dumping out function signatures counts as documentation.
2018-01-15T10:49:30Z beach: knobo: I think both me and Shinmera object a bit to the term "documentation generation system" and I also think we both encourage more effort into writing good documentation as opposed to collecting it from documentation strings that are often inadequate, partly because they represent noise in the source code.
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2018-01-15T10:50:12Z Shinmera: Colleen: tell knobo look up staple
2018-01-15T10:50:12Z Colleen: knobo: About staple https://shinmera.github.io/staple#about_staple
2018-01-15T10:50:27Z TMA: beach: the chenbin's question was ended with some five spaces and a "thanks" --- an inadequate expression of gratitude, granted, but not absent altogether
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2018-01-15T10:50:37Z knobo: Ok. I just tried staple. Looks good so far.
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2018-01-15T10:50:43Z beach: TMA: Ah, OK.
2018-01-15T10:51:14Z beach: Take this one for instance (SBCL): (documentation 'car 'function) => "Return the 1st object in a list."
2018-01-15T10:51:24Z knobo: Would be good if I could write documentation in a seperate file, and include documentation from docstrings.
2018-01-15T10:51:33Z beach: knobo: You can.
2018-01-15T10:51:36Z Shinmera: Colleen: tell knobo look up documentation-utils
2018-01-15T10:51:36Z Colleen: knobo: About documentation-utils https://shinmera.github.io/documentation-utils#about_documentation-utils
2018-01-15T10:51:46Z beach: clhs documentation
2018-01-15T10:51:46Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_docume.htm
2018-01-15T10:51:47Z knobo: Like when referencing a class, documentation of slots and methods get's included.
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2018-01-15T10:51:58Z beach: knobo: Notice that documentation can be used with SETF.
2018-01-15T10:52:43Z beach: knobo: Slots should not be part of client-visible documentation.  They are implementation details that may change over time.
2018-01-15T10:52:48Z knobo: beach: right.. I forgot about that. But simple inline docstrings can be useful. So I'll not use setf.
2018-01-15T10:53:17Z knobo: beach: Yes api change. But there should be an api documentation also.
2018-01-15T10:53:18Z beach: knobo: Document initargs and accessors, but not slots.
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2018-01-15T10:53:58Z knobo: ah. right.
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2018-01-15T10:55:04Z beach: Documentation strings that are physically near code represent noise to the maintainer of the code, because, presumably he or she already knows the external interface before attempting to modify the code.  I think that is the reason (the noise factor) why many documentation strings are so skimpy; you don't want to mess up the code too much.
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2018-01-15T10:57:02Z knobo: I sometimes find it useful to document the format of arguments in a function.
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2018-01-15T10:57:51Z knobo: Though it is often easy to read it from the code. If the argument is an alist or a plist or something else.
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2018-01-15T10:59:33Z knobo: Any project that is so good that it could be used as a reference case for writing documentation?
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2018-01-15T11:00:44Z Shinmera: Edi's stuff is usually documented pretty well, I think.
2018-01-15T11:00:58Z Shinmera: People also tell me they like my docs, but I don't know if it's great.
2018-01-15T11:01:20Z knobo: Shinmera: but Edi's stuff is just written documentation in a separate file?
2018-01-15T11:01:28Z beach: knobo: I am fairly proud of Cluffer: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Cluffer
2018-01-15T11:01:35Z makomo: hi everyone
2018-01-15T11:01:43Z beach: Hello makomo.
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2018-01-15T11:02:04Z Shinmera: knobo: ... yeah so? Are you asking about the act of writing documentation, or the literal way in which the strings are put into source code?
2018-01-15T11:02:27Z Shinmera: Because for the former I fail to see how the place where you put your documentation matters at all
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2018-01-15T11:02:53Z beach: knobo: http://metamodular.com/cluffer-documentation.pdf
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2018-01-15T11:05:12Z makomo: beach: does that mean you're robert?
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2018-01-15T11:05:24Z beach: makomo: I certainly am.
2018-01-15T11:05:29Z makomo: hah wow, i didn't know :-)
2018-01-15T11:05:43Z makomo: good stuff indeed
2018-01-15T11:06:00Z beach: Do I know you?
2018-01-15T11:06:24Z makomo: nope, i'm a CL newbie, i've only joined the community around a month or so ago
2018-01-15T11:06:28Z knobo: So just writing the documentation in a separate latex or html file is the best.
2018-01-15T11:06:34Z beach: Right, I see that in the logs.
2018-01-15T11:06:40Z makomo: beach: but i've seen your work when i was looking at clasp
2018-01-15T11:06:52Z beach: Oh, I see.
2018-01-15T11:07:02Z makomo: thought i might see a nickname like "rstrandh" or something on irc. i always wondered who that guy was :-)
2018-01-15T11:07:10Z knobo: In javascript I use jsdoc. I just thought maybe people used a similar strategy in lisp.
2018-01-15T11:07:14Z makomo: nice to meet you ;-)
2018-01-15T11:07:56Z knobo: I'll use org-mode then.
2018-01-15T11:07:58Z Shinmera: knobo: I write the documentation overview, concepts, etc into the README.md . This then gets combined with the docstrings into an about.html file that contains the entire documentation for a project.
2018-01-15T11:08:17Z makomo: knobo: i use org-mode for literally everything, it's great
2018-01-15T11:08:26Z beach: makomo: Thanks, you too.  For the record, my nick is just a literal translation into English of my last name.
2018-01-15T11:09:17Z makomo: beach: oh, interesting
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2018-01-15T11:13:41Z makomo: beach: ah, now i remember your page also (it has a unique look). i've read your essay on lisp a few months back i think, when i was just starting out.
2018-01-15T11:14:05Z beach: Yes, some of those are somewhat popular.
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2018-01-15T11:49:59Z phoe: beach: I'd like a review of my review.
2018-01-15T11:50:01Z phoe: https://github.com/phoe/clus-data/pull/36#issuecomment-357661119
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2018-01-15T11:50:20Z phoe: I want to make sure that I'm not making some errors while explaining Lisp.
2018-01-15T11:50:54Z phoe: Please take a look at it when you have a while.
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2018-01-15T11:51:06Z phoe: #lisp is obviously invited, too. (:
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2018-01-15T11:51:46Z shka: hello
2018-01-15T11:51:50Z phoe: hey shka
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2018-01-15T11:52:11Z makomo: hi
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2018-01-15T11:52:39Z shka: what is the cool's kid web framework nowdays?
2018-01-15T11:52:43Z shka: caveman2?
2018-01-15T11:53:03Z phoe: I used lucerne some time ago, if that matters
2018-01-15T11:53:10Z Shinmera: I use Radiance.
2018-01-15T11:53:20Z Shinmera: I'm not a cool kid though, so I guess that disqualifies it
2018-01-15T11:55:07Z shka: Shinmera: well, needless to say you are not very good at marketing :-)
2018-01-15T11:55:45Z phoe: he writes decent code though
2018-01-15T11:57:39Z shka: well, let's try radiance
2018-01-15T11:57:52Z shka: it does not look half bad
2018-01-15T12:00:16Z beach: phoe: I will.
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2018-01-15T12:01:28Z phoe: beach: thanks!
2018-01-15T12:02:13Z osune_: I have two questions: Is it possible (without CFFI) to pass (c-)structs between embedded ecl and c? And: how valid is ECL as replacement for LuaJit as plugin language on ARM (Cortex A9 / Cortex A53) ?
2018-01-15T12:02:58Z beach: phoe: The function does not do what NTH does, it does NTHCDR does.
2018-01-15T12:03:39Z phoe: beach: yes, I noted this in my review.
2018-01-15T12:03:48Z beach: Oh, I should read further.  Heh.
2018-01-15T12:03:59Z phoe: A valid remark though. (:
2018-01-15T12:05:22Z pjb: I wonder why would anybody want to do the same as cool kids.  They're the adult losers in general.
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2018-01-15T12:05:24Z beach: Looks good.
2018-01-15T12:05:33Z phoe: beach: thanks!
2018-01-15T12:05:37Z pjb: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3181611/The-curse-cool-Kids-popular-school-losers-adults-claims-study.html
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2018-01-15T12:06:40Z pjb: osune_: CFFI is only a portability layer over each implementation specific FFI API.  So the answer to your question is yes, but you would be silly to do that.
2018-01-15T12:06:42Z schweers: sounds pretty intuitive, they had to conduct a study for that? ;-P
2018-01-15T12:07:13Z pjb: ecl is very valid, it's designed to be a plug-in language.
2018-01-15T12:07:34Z pjb: e = embedded in ecl.
2018-01-15T12:16:27Z jackdaniel: osune_: you may inline C in ECL programs and call CL functions from C, passing structs verbaitm is possible too of course
2018-01-15T12:16:54Z jackdaniel: ECL doesn't do JIT though (unless you call that way built-in compiler, but its not the same in my eyes)
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2018-01-15T12:35:50Z osune_: jackdaniel: thanks for this information. I've understood by reading the examples in the ecl directory and the manual how to convert from and to cl_object primitive types. But I miss an example of how to pass arrays and structs. I tried to look at EQL but I don't know QT and it's quite big. Can you point me to an example?
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2018-01-15T12:37:55Z osune_: I figured I would compile a lisp plugin file on startup to fasl once and would load the fasl?
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2018-01-15T12:52:21Z jackdaniel: you can build whole library as shared_object
2018-01-15T12:52:32Z jackdaniel: I'd poke examples/ directory for same useful snippets
2018-01-15T12:56:03Z osune_: jackdaniel: I could do that but, this would mean I need an compiler on the device. Which I don't have. I'll try to find more examples thanks so far.
2018-01-15T12:57:17Z jackdaniel: you may compile to shared object beforehand, that's not a problem
2018-01-15T12:58:14Z jackdaniel: fasl files are (in reality) disguised shared objects (don't confuse that with fasc, which are bytecode)
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2018-01-15T13:02:18Z schweers: do people here actually use template systems in an editor for lisp?  like yasnippet in emacs?
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2018-01-15T13:03:51Z osune_: jackdaniel: maybe I'm missing something or we missunderstood: I want to embedd ECL in a embedded C application on ARM. I create my Linux Image with buildroot. Currently I'm assuming ECL will just build fine. Now users can write a plugin for my application by: a) write lisp code which gets just loaded (do I get here an fasl or fasc?)  b) write lisp code, compile it on their machine to C with the ECL compiler , which gets  compiled to an
2018-01-15T13:03:51Z osune_: *.so via gcc crosscompiler, the result can be loaded via dlopen on runtime.    The goal here is that users of the device don't need access to the crosscompilation toolchain to write and load Plugins. Which eliminates option b)
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2018-01-15T13:05:14Z jackdaniel: if you don't have gcc compiler and you can't compile sources beforehand you end up with fasc files indeed
2018-01-15T13:05:56Z osune_: which can be compiled from *.lisp files on the embedded device via the embedded ecl code right?
2018-01-15T13:06:08Z jackdaniel: yes
2018-01-15T13:07:24Z jackdaniel: keep in mind though that bytecode is much slower than native binary (put that on top of the fact that ECL isn't a speed champion anyway *and* that you run on a slow arm box) – so I wouldn't put serious computations in these plugins if I were you
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2018-01-15T13:15:58Z pjb: serious computation = deep loops.  Anything a user can write can be interpreted or byte-compiled without ill-effects.  Just provide the fast primitives the user wants.
2018-01-15T13:16:12Z osune_: Thanks for the heads up. The plugin code will process some binary data mostly. I currently don't expect heavy load computations. But I have the option to embedd ECL alongside to luaJit. Even if ECL will prove as an ill fit for the plugins it might come handy for configuration tasks.
2018-01-15T13:17:20Z jackdaniel: cool
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2018-01-15T14:22:30Z shka: Shinmera: i like docs for radiance
2018-01-15T14:22:36Z shka: really good job
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2018-01-15T14:33:16Z Shinmera: Glad to hear!
2018-01-15T14:35:33Z Shinmera: shka: If you're confused about anything, or find anything lacking, don't hesitate to let me know
2018-01-15T14:39:07Z shka: Shinmera: thanks, i will, I will read reader application, it seems to be elaborate example
2018-01-15T14:39:27Z Shinmera: shka: The tutorial linked in the docs goes through writing an entire application (plaster)
2018-01-15T14:39:40Z shka: i missed it
2018-01-15T14:40:17Z Shinmera: Colleen: tell shka look up radiance in-depth
2018-01-15T14:40:17Z Colleen: shka: A lengthy and in-depth example https://shirakumo.github.io/radiance#a_lengthy_and_in-depth_example
2018-01-15T14:40:48Z shka: well, yeah
2018-01-15T14:40:53Z shka: i see the tutorial
2018-01-15T14:41:06Z shka: i will go trough it, thanks!
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2018-01-15T14:53:19Z zukunf: hei
2018-01-15T14:53:45Z zukunf: what accounts for lisp high latency in this chart?? --> https://danluu.com/input-lag/
2018-01-15T14:57:40Z lieven: not enough data to tell. If his terminal on the symbolics is a CLIM listener, it is doing far more work than just putting a character on the screen.
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2018-01-15T15:55:50Z shka: is there a way to ensure that lisp file is always loaded from scratch and never cached in FAS?
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2018-01-15T15:56:48Z flip214: shka: "touch *.asd"
2018-01-15T15:56:59Z shka: more automatic?
2018-01-15T15:57:00Z flip214: or touch the source file
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2018-01-15T15:57:09Z shka: yes, yes, i know about that
2018-01-15T15:57:22Z flip214: I'm sure there's some kind of ASDF hook you can use right after parsing
2018-01-15T15:57:24Z shka: but there has to be better way to do that
2018-01-15T15:57:42Z rumbler31: why does there have to be a better way?
2018-01-15T15:57:50Z shka: ok, i will try to figure this out later
2018-01-15T15:57:59Z Shinmera: Define a custom ASDF component that just does LOAD on both COMPILE-OP and LOAD-OP
2018-01-15T15:58:03Z shka: rumbler31: because i am optimist! :D
2018-01-15T15:58:39Z rumbler31: well is there some behavior you are trying to avoid?
2018-01-15T15:58:41Z Shinmera: There's nothing built into ASDF to do this, unless you want to just LOAD everything, in which case there's load-source-op, if I remember correctly.
2018-01-15T15:58:57Z flip214: shka: have only :serial dependencies and do something with the first component
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2018-01-15T15:59:33Z shka: not critical
2018-01-15T15:59:47Z flip214: shka: https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.html#Output-Configuration-DSL
2018-01-15T15:59:53Z flip214: has a     :disable-cache |
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2018-01-15T16:00:32Z rumbler31: there certainly are "gotchas" that you can run into if you expect that a file will get recompiled when it will in fact not be
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2018-01-15T16:01:20Z flip214: shka: linux-only is good enough?
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2018-01-15T16:02:18Z flip214: if it is, have the first source file "/proc/uptime" (which consists of two floats only) and use :serial T
2018-01-15T16:02:34Z flip214: files in /proc are defined to have NOW as mtime, always
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2018-01-15T16:08:12Z rumbler31: I would say that if you're trying to fight optimized loading, you're actively doing work to throw away a free optimization.  which I would be wary of advocating unless you had a good reason, but ^ that /proc/uptime trick is cool
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2018-01-15T16:09:11Z shka: flip214: funny trick
2018-01-15T16:09:31Z shka: i will use it to impress ladies
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2018-01-15T16:10:12Z flip214: shka: I should've sold you that one over a beer at some ELS, I guess ;)
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2018-01-15T16:11:45Z shka: i will not be at ELS this year (or next year i think)
2018-01-15T16:11:52Z shka: sooo :(
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2018-01-15T16:28:07Z Xach: flip214: that is a very amusing trick! can you tell me more about how you thought of it?
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2018-01-15T16:32:59Z pjb: Unfortunately /proc is not always available.
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2018-01-15T17:13:39Z lexa_: I'm looking for a library for parsing some text (Linux device treese to be specific). But most of the libraries mentioned on cliki http://cliki.net/parser%20generator are either dead or in alpha-stage.
2018-01-15T17:14:10Z lexa_: Can somebody advice me on the library to use for that kind of parsing?
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2018-01-15T17:16:19Z beach: lexa_: It depends a bit on the style of parser you want.  For combinator parsing that is cl-parser-combinators, and also (I hear esrap).
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2018-01-15T17:16:37Z beach: As I recall esrap supports other parsing techniques as well.
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2018-01-15T17:18:54Z lexa_: Is that ok that esrap wasn't updated for 5 years?
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2018-01-15T17:19:19Z beach: Perhaps you should ask drmeister.  I know he has used it recently.
2018-01-15T17:19:23Z fe[nl]ix: lexa_: yes
2018-01-15T17:20:21Z pjb: Why? Is there new legislation that renders esrap caducous?
2018-01-15T17:20:37Z shka: lexa_: it is very ok
2018-01-15T17:20:48Z shka: it did not stop working
2018-01-15T17:21:14Z pjb: Incredible! Software that didn't stop working!
2018-01-15T17:21:24Z pjb: Bring the champagne!
2018-01-15T17:21:31Z shka: pjb: novel idea, i know
2018-01-15T17:21:32Z beach: lexa_: Since the Common Lisp language is not moving, libraries that used to work still do.
2018-01-15T17:21:55Z beach: It's an unusual situation these days, but that's the way it is.
2018-01-15T17:22:08Z lexa_: Sorry, I just came from the world of C/C++, and there if software is not updated to recent changes in OS/Libraries it has a tendency to fall apart.
2018-01-15T17:22:29Z pjb: Well, now you understand why we use lisp.
2018-01-15T17:22:55Z pjb: http://informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/wang.html
2018-01-15T17:23:00Z lexa_: I guess it is not the only reason.
2018-01-15T17:23:05Z pjb: (- 2018 1960) #| --> 58 |#
2018-01-15T17:23:08Z shka: luckly, in lisp land you can sometimes even run 80s software after few changes to port it to the common lisp standard
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2018-01-15T17:23:41Z shka: which is astonishing in some way…
2018-01-15T17:23:41Z pagnol: can this be written more compactly using some special loop-macro foo? https://gist.github.com/anonymous/8eed8669312072879c451f5b3de550a4
2018-01-15T17:24:01Z shrdlu68: Well, if a backwards-incompatible change is made to a project's dependencies...
2018-01-15T17:24:30Z shka: that's another story
2018-01-15T17:24:50Z pjb: I don't know if it's more compact, but (loop for x in '(1 2 3) for foo = (+ x 2) for bar = (* foo 3) for baz = (+ bar 4) collect baz) #| --> (13 16 19) |#
2018-01-15T17:25:36Z pjb: alternatively: (mapcar (lambda (x) (+ (* (+ x 2) 3) 4)) '(1 2 3)) #| --> (13 16 19) |#
2018-01-15T17:25:49Z pagnol: pjb, the former was what I was looking for, thank you
2018-01-15T17:26:07Z shrdlu68: Isn't that generally what makes software stop working?
2018-01-15T17:26:13Z pjb: the point of mapcar here is that you don't have to introduce variables: just use subexpressions.
2018-01-15T17:26:21Z pjb: Fewer names, less burden.
2018-01-15T17:29:04Z shka: shrdlu68: yes, but the point is that language is standardized, so it is not like conservative library that depends on other conservative library will stop working because lisp has changed and dependency was not updated
2018-01-15T17:29:36Z shka: for instance, i don't think alexandria will become obsolete anytime soon
2018-01-15T17:32:57Z scymtym: lexa_: quicklisp's version of esrap comes from https://github.com/scymtym/esrap
2018-01-15T17:33:24Z Shinmera: beach: Just booked the flight and hotel for Till & myself.
2018-01-15T17:33:36Z shka: cool
2018-01-15T17:33:50Z beach: Shinmera: Out early as usual.  Great!
2018-01-15T17:36:09Z osune: jackdaniel: I'm sorry but I searched the EQL and ECL examples for how to translate c-structs to lisp forth and back, but in the ECL examples I found nothing and the EQL internals are really not easy to follow for me. I can see how with ffi:clines a struct can be declared, and that with ffi:c-inline I can declare the types of the arguments. But what is still unclear to me is what should be the c-type given to fii:c-inline for the struct
2018-01-15T17:36:09Z osune: (eg struct foo { int a;};) . Currently I can only imagine to create where I provide explicit conversion functions, where I build a up a c-struct by accessing one slot after the other via cl_slot_value, and vice versa. Can you provide some more hints please?
2018-01-15T17:38:13Z jackdaniel: if you want to introduce some C structure as a native type to ECL, you need to add it in src/h/object.h (and a few other places) and I doubt you want that. If you want to simply pass it around as an opaque object, check out src/lsp/ffi.lsp. That said, your best choice is to use CFFI which has a well-written ECL backend
2018-01-15T17:38:34Z jackdaniel: C structures are not the same thing as CL structures
2018-01-15T17:39:20Z jackdaniel: you can inline access to C structures with c-inline of course
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2018-01-15T17:45:30Z osune:  So to get this working without CFFI I will need quite some callbacks into C. Thank you, that cleared this up to me.
2018-01-15T17:46:14Z jackdaniel: osune: you may check out how ECL support is implemented in CFFI as well to find some hitns
2018-01-15T17:46:17Z jackdaniel: hints*
2018-01-15T17:46:26Z jackdaniel: why don't you want to use CFFI though?
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2018-01-15T17:51:53Z osune: I'm on a small embedded ARM system and have to fit with some pretty big binary blobs on a 32MByte SPI Flash.
2018-01-15T17:53:29Z osune: So if I can I wouldn't want any dependencies
2018-01-15T17:54:48Z jackdaniel: oh, then remember to not use sstrip with ECL fasl's and libecl.so (strip is fine though)
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2018-01-15T17:55:34Z jackdaniel: as of cffi, you can get down to 3.3M to have it all in one fasl (dependencies included)
2018-01-15T17:56:58Z osune: using the :monolithic t :LIB  build options ?
2018-01-15T17:57:42Z jackdaniel: http://hellsgate.pl/files/500c6b9c there for fasl which may be `load'-ed from ECL
2018-01-15T17:58:17Z jackdaniel: :type :shared-object / :static-object would be less abingous than :LIB
2018-01-15T17:58:24Z jackdaniel: I've got to go, good luck :)
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2018-01-15T18:05:12Z osune: minion: memo for jackdaniel: the :type :shared-object / :static-object is not mentioned in the Documentation? Thanks again for the hints :)
2018-01-15T18:05:12Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell jackdaniel when he/she/it next speaks.
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2018-01-15T19:33:01Z flip214: Xach: well, I already knew about :serial, so I only needed something that "always" changes...
2018-01-15T19:33:26Z flip214: pjb: "linux-only", but there it'll even work in a container.
2018-01-15T19:33:47Z flip214: if it doesn't, do a bind-mount of /proc/uptime _only_ into the chroot/jail/container etc.
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2018-01-15T19:35:56Z Xach: flip214: so you put two and two together and got a wonderful treat like that?
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2018-01-15T19:39:57Z Xach: flip214: So it seems this delight is only conceptual, as you can't have an absolute pathname as a :file component...
2018-01-15T19:40:10Z Xach: flip214: or is there some other way to do it? i tried (:file "/proc/uptime")
2018-01-15T19:47:54Z shrdlu68: symlink?
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2018-01-15T19:59:13Z varjagg: shrdlu68: do you use your own fork of ironclad with cl-tls?
2018-01-15T19:59:44Z shrdlu68: varjagg: Nope, I use sharplispers/ironclad
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2018-01-15T20:02:52Z varjagg: oh
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2018-01-15T20:03:22Z varjagg: where's quicklisp version coming from?
2018-01-15T20:03:28Z varjagg: sharplispers i suppose
2018-01-15T20:03:50Z varjagg: "Symbol "DESTRUCTURE-PRIVATE-KEY" not found in the IRONCLAD package."
2018-01-15T20:04:07Z Xach: sharplispers ironclad latest release, not master
2018-01-15T20:04:22Z varjagg: ah
2018-01-15T20:04:31Z Xach: i think it's 0.37 or 0.38
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2018-01-15T20:06:36Z varjagg: going with master helped, thanks
2018-01-15T20:11:00Z drmeister: lexa_: esrap has been working fine for me
2018-01-15T20:11:52Z drmeister: I’ve written some nontrivial parsers with it and will be writing another soon.
2018-01-15T20:16:33Z varjagg: hm
2018-01-15T20:16:59Z varjagg: shrdlu68: any idea where on osx could one find the certs bundle?
2018-01-15T20:17:12Z varjagg: trying secure-sockets:connect now
2018-01-15T20:17:37Z varjagg: there's /etc/ssl/cert.pem, but it is invalid
2018-01-15T20:18:30Z shrdlu68: varjagg: There will likely be warnings about some of the certificates in the bundle having issues, they'll just be skipped.
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2018-01-15T20:20:22Z varjagg: no, i get handshake error
2018-01-15T20:20:31Z varjagg: this could be brew's own cert
2018-01-15T20:20:49Z shrdlu68: Ah, something else's wrong then.
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2018-01-15T20:27:34Z shrdlu68: varjagg: You could try using curl's bundle: https://curl.haxx.se/docs/caextract.html
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2018-01-15T20:33:18Z varjagg: shrdlu68: that got me a bit further, now it throws x509-decoding-error from x509-decode
2018-01-15T20:34:57Z shrdlu68: Hmm, is it an uncaught error or does it proceed?
2018-01-15T20:35:05Z varjagg: uncaught
2018-01-15T20:36:03Z shrdlu68: What site did you try to connect to? Let me try to reproduce it, and get curl's ca bundle as well.
2018-01-15T20:36:08Z varjagg: google.com
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2018-01-15T20:39:22Z shrdlu68: varjagg: Got it as well. Let me see...
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2018-01-15T20:47:12Z sjl: Anyone know of anything that looks at the :source-control slot in ASDF systems?
2018-01-15T20:47:12Z minion: sjl, memo from flip214: thanks a lot for the vlime update.... (but) I'm currently looking at spacemacs.... let's see.
2018-01-15T20:47:57Z sjl: According to the ADSF manual the only correct value for this slot is (keyword string), but I see systems on Github using all kinds of things there, like:
2018-01-15T20:48:11Z sjl: :source-control :git, :source-control "http://..."
2018-01-15T20:48:57Z sjl: Ideally I'd like to be able to specify *multiple* entries there, e.g. :source-control ((:git "github.com/...") (:hg "bitbucket.org/..."))
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2018-01-15T20:49:18Z sjl: I'm wondering how badly this is going to break someone's code somewhere.
2018-01-15T20:51:38Z Xach: If you use something contrary to the ASDF manual, it might stop working and break in the future just out of spite.
2018-01-15T20:51:46Z Xach: Even if no other software looks or cares.
2018-01-15T20:52:05Z Shinmera: I also don't understand the appeal of multiple vcs in the first place
2018-01-15T20:53:16Z Xach: sjl: I dig through system file forms but I don't do anything with source-control, personally.
2018-01-15T20:53:40Z sjl: Shinmera: I use mercurial because git's ui is a shitshow, but want to still provide a github mirror to accept PRs.
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2018-01-15T20:54:08Z jackdaniel: osune: I mean :shared-library and :static-library, for some complementary doc see: https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/static/ecldoc/Extensions.html#System-building
2018-01-15T20:54:08Z minion: jackdaniel, memo from osune: the :type :shared-object / :static-object is not mentioned in the Documentation? Thanks again for the hints :)
2018-01-15T20:54:22Z sjl: Xach: yeah that's what I figured.  I'll just leave it blank, I think.  The README lists the repos anyway.
2018-01-15T20:54:34Z shrdlu68: varjagg: There are non-ascii characters in the ca certificate, which is throwing off a function that tries to distinguish between DER and PEM files by the fact that PEM files are supposed to be ASCII (base64-encoded): https://github.com/shrdlu68/cl-tls/blob/master/src/utils.lisp#L125
2018-01-15T20:55:09Z Shinmera: sjl: Too bad you're not using Emacs. Magit makes git pretty nice.
2018-01-15T20:56:05Z shrdlu68: So changing :encoding :ascii to :encoding :utf-8 should get it working...
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2018-01-15T20:56:48Z sjl: Shinmera: Vim has fugitive which makes it tolerable, but I don't like using a TUI for version control.  I want shell commands with a sane syntax.
2018-01-15T20:57:02Z sjl: but anyway, git/hg is offtopic for this
2018-01-15T20:57:05Z sjl: channel
2018-01-15T20:57:34Z osune: jackdaniel: uhm what is the difference between https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/static/manual/ and https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/static/ecldoc ?
2018-01-15T20:57:45Z sjl: and orthogonal to the question of wanting to provide more than one VCS in defsystem
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2018-01-15T21:00:24Z jackdaniel: osune: manual is complete to some degree, ecldoc is wip (but has some chapters expanded)
2018-01-15T21:01:30Z osune: oh I didn't knew about that.
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2018-01-15T21:03:03Z jackdaniel: well, I'm not advertising half-baked cake ;)
2018-01-15T21:04:05Z osune: well I'm glad I get to have a peak anyway :)
2018-01-15T21:04:53Z osune: *peek
2018-01-15T21:05:11Z shrdlu68: varjagg: I pushed changes to fix this, but that bundle still doesn't work.
2018-01-15T21:06:28Z varjagg: shrdlu68: thanks
2018-01-15T21:06:36Z varjagg: yep it gets the handshake error still
2018-01-15T21:06:45Z varjagg: should try it on a linux box tomorrow
2018-01-15T21:07:18Z shrdlu68: Path validation fails, meaning the certificate chain is invalid or something.
2018-01-15T21:07:33Z varjagg: yep
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2018-01-15T21:15:27Z shrdlu68: varjag: It seems to work with other sites: twitter.com, facebook.com, github.com...
2018-01-15T21:17:30Z varjag: hmm you are right
2018-01-15T21:17:48Z varjag: some other sites don't work too
2018-01-15T21:18:27Z varjag: e.g. www.bitstamp.net
2018-01-15T21:18:31Z varjag: bizarre
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2018-01-15T21:19:33Z varjag: ssl is tricky
2018-01-15T21:19:42Z shrdlu68: Might have something to do with OCSP.
2018-01-15T21:20:12Z varjag: some of the certs are revoked?
2018-01-15T21:20:18Z shrdlu68: i.e cl-tls might be too stringent when it's unable to contact OCSP responders.
2018-01-15T21:20:41Z varjag: ah
2018-01-15T21:21:08Z shrdlu68: It chooses to fail in that case rather than go on.
2018-01-15T21:21:31Z varjag: "Error encountered while checking the certificate status. Details: Response status: unauthorized"
2018-01-15T21:21:40Z varjag: that's a new one
2018-01-15T21:22:23Z shrdlu68: That's OCSP. The OCSP server responded with "unauthorized", so cl-tls couldn't verify the revocation status.
2018-01-15T21:22:23Z varjag: the ocsp thing i guess?
2018-01-15T21:22:26Z varjag: right
2018-01-15T21:22:36Z Xach: hmmmmmm
2018-01-15T21:22:54Z Xach ponders replacing system-index.txt with system-index.cdb for insanely large system-index.txt files
2018-01-15T21:23:57Z jackdaniel: ECL used this format for its help.doc file
2018-01-15T21:24:29Z Xach: jackdaniel: CDB?
2018-01-15T21:24:34Z jackdaniel: contrib/ecl-cdb/ if you are interested
2018-01-15T21:24:45Z Xach: The hash table format?
2018-01-15T21:25:02Z Xach: (Surely there can't be a name clash in a global three-letter system...)
2018-01-15T21:25:20Z jackdaniel: yes, you'll find even in ecl-cdb.lisp file a comment:
2018-01-15T21:25:21Z jackdaniel: ;;;; This file implements the CDB specification, which you find here
2018-01-15T21:25:21Z jackdaniel: ;;;; http://cr.yp.to/cdb/cdb.txt and is reproduced below, replicating
2018-01-15T21:25:21Z jackdaniel: ;;;; the interface developed by Zach Beane under the name ZCDB.
2018-01-15T21:25:30Z jackdaniel: so I think we talk about the same format ;)
2018-01-15T21:25:43Z Xach: phew!
2018-01-15T21:26:03Z jackdaniel: s/used/uses/
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2018-01-15T21:47:29Z rpg: sjl: The source control metadata aren't used for anything. An issue in ASDF is that on the one hand one wants to encourage people to provide useful information, of just about any sort, but on the other hand, one wishes to provide useful error-checking to help people debug their system declarations.
2018-01-15T21:48:02Z rpg: Perhaps I should have said "ASDF itself doesn't use the source control metadata for anything."
2018-01-15T21:49:24Z shrdlu68: varjag: cl-tls validated every single certificate in the chain upto the root found in the trusted CA certificates. In the case of Google, it doesn't find a matching root at the last step of the chain.
2018-01-15T21:49:32Z shrdlu68: s/validated/validates
2018-01-15T21:49:43Z shrdlu68: Now I have to figure out why.
2018-01-15T21:52:31Z shrdlu68: The last certificate presented by the server says it's issued by "Equifax Secure Certificate Authority"
2018-01-15T21:53:25Z varjag: *that* equifax?
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2018-01-15T21:53:38Z shrdlu68: Haha, I don't think so.
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2018-01-15T21:55:31Z shrdlu68: There's no certificate identifying itself as "Equifax Secure Certificate Authority" in the curl ca bundle, that's why validation is failing.
2018-01-15T21:55:53Z varjag: i see
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2018-01-15T21:57:32Z shrdlu68: It seems most clients are configured to validate up to just below the final level (a "depth" argument). If I do that with cl-tls, it works in this case.
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2018-01-15T21:59:25Z varjag: aha
2018-01-15T22:00:10Z varjag: i could hack that in for my specific case, or are you going to push that to the repo?
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2018-01-15T22:01:52Z shrdlu68: I'm not sure yet, I have some more research to do.
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2018-01-15T22:03:35Z shrdlu68: https://github.com/shrdlu68/cl-tls/blob/master/src/x509/validate.lisp#L54 Changing (length chain) to (1- (length chain)) makes it work.
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2018-01-15T22:05:30Z varjag: thanks
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2018-01-15T22:07:44Z varjag: shrdlu68: it does in the case of google.com now, www.bitstamp.net still fails
2018-01-15T22:08:01Z varjag: just another factoid to your research :)
2018-01-15T22:08:11Z varjag: sorry for giving you some extra headache
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2018-01-15T22:15:02Z shrdlu68: www.bitstampt.net fails because of OCSP. If you disable revocation checking, it'll work: https://github.com/shrdlu68/cl-tls/blob/master/src/x509/validate.lisp#L84
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2018-01-15T22:18:19Z varjag: cool thanks
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