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2018-01-13T01:05:17Z babylisp: Why doesn't prog return the value of the last s-expr?
2018-01-13T01:05:57Z Bike: because it has a tagbody
2018-01-13T01:06:07Z Bike: you could have (prog (go label) label)
2018-01-13T01:06:12Z Bike: what value is there to return?
2018-01-13T01:07:28Z babylisp: `(prog ((result nil)) (dotimes .....) (result))`
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2018-01-13T01:08:33Z Bike: does that answer my question?
2018-01-13T01:08:42Z Bike: well, (prog () (go label) label)
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2018-01-13T01:09:00Z Bike: also, that calls the function called result, rather than returning the value
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2018-01-13T01:11:10Z babylisp: progn is what I want, not prog.
2018-01-13T01:11:18Z babylisp: stupid naming is stupid.
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2018-01-13T01:13:38Z jmercouris: rumbler31: must I watch this? :D?
2018-01-13T01:13:57Z rumbler31: Well I thought it was funny
2018-01-13T01:15:07Z babylisp: Something even funnier is asking a lisp programmer who stutters to read: (car (cdr (cddddr (cddddr list))))
2018-01-13T01:15:10Z rme: I'm always glad to see someone learning CL.  I could do without that sort of attitude, though.
2018-01-13T01:15:30Z jmercouris: rme: +1
2018-01-13T01:15:31Z babylisp: rme: Yeah, right.
2018-01-13T01:15:47Z jmercouris: babylisp: Stuttering is a real disability, they don't wish to stutter
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2018-01-13T01:16:24Z jmercouris: I don't think you'll offend somebody in this channel, as likely nobody here has a stutter, but just food for thought
2018-01-13T01:17:12Z babylisp: jmercouris: How is that offensive? I am sure anyone who stutters would find reading (car (cdr (cddddr (cddddr list)))) almost impossible.
2018-01-13T01:17:33Z jmercouris: I'm sure they might, what they may not like is you finding it funny that they have a problem
2018-01-13T01:17:43Z babylisp: jmercouris: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ERf6cUa_1k
2018-01-13T01:18:21Z jmercouris: babylisp: I've seen that, I'm not mad or anything, I'm just saying
2018-01-13T01:18:24Z babylisp: jmercouris: Don't be dense. Have a lil sense of humour.
2018-01-13T01:18:43Z babylisp: or humor, if you like.
2018-01-13T01:19:20Z babylisp: I think what is most patronizing is people "affording" more courtesy for people with disabilities. It is borderline contempt.
2018-01-13T01:19:31Z jmercouris: I'm sorry if I came across the wrong way, not trying to be a moral warrior, I'm just offering an opinion
2018-01-13T01:19:37Z babylisp: And it is not just people with disability, minority and women go in that list too.
2018-01-13T01:19:50Z jmercouris: I think this conversation belongs in lispcafe
2018-01-13T01:19:56Z babylisp: jmercouris: fair enough, just having a conversation. Maybe I should tune down a lil though.
2018-01-13T01:20:21Z Bike: you know what else is contemptuous? using someone as the butt of a joke
2018-01-13T01:20:40Z babylisp: Bike: No.
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2018-01-13T01:21:27Z babylisp: Excluding people from jokes IMHO is far more contemptuous and damaging.
2018-01-13T01:21:58Z jmercouris: There is no moral truth, so let's just please drop this topic, as I'm sure we won't come to resolution
2018-01-13T01:21:59Z babylisp: In fact, excluding people from anything is contemptuous. It is what makes people feel disenfranchised.
2018-01-13T01:22:32Z babylisp: jmercouris: I think you have a good point, good sir/madam.
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2018-01-13T01:23:48Z babylisp: Here is something funny on the topic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9n8Xp8DWf8
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2018-01-13T01:25:33Z Bike: So like, if you see a jock mocking a nerd for reading fantasy novels, say, you're like "ah, this is a healthy community interaction, these people are friends"
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2018-01-13T01:26:01Z babylisp: I actually introduce myself as "full time nerd".
2018-01-13T01:26:12Z babylisp: In work circles.
2018-01-13T01:26:27Z Bike: that's pretty normal, yes
2018-01-13T01:26:42Z Bike: but not actually the situation to which i was referring
2018-01-13T01:26:50Z babylisp: But then again, I am not exactly a typical nerd. I don't have exactly a type.
2018-01-13T01:27:08Z Bike: no, immediately linking george carlin makes you fit a type, i assure you.
2018-01-13T01:27:23Z babylisp: Bike: Please help me understand.
2018-01-13T01:27:39Z Bike: Has nobody ever made fun of you in a hostile fashion?
2018-01-13T01:27:47Z Bike: Like, back in high school, maybe? At any time?
2018-01-13T01:28:37Z babylisp: Everyone has.
2018-01-13T01:28:50Z babylisp: It is shit, but I find pity worst than that.
2018-01-13T01:29:02Z Bike: And you think not doing that is pity?
2018-01-13T01:29:24Z babylisp: Not exactly.
2018-01-13T01:29:58Z Bike: You said that if you DON'T mock people for stuttering, they'll feel left out and pitied.
2018-01-13T01:30:38Z babylisp: No, if we never have a joke about people who stutter while joking about just anyone else, it is patronizing.
2018-01-13T01:31:24Z Bike: We weren't joking about anything. You just spontaneously brought this up.
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2018-01-13T01:31:36Z babylisp: We were talking about being funny.
2018-01-13T01:31:53Z babylisp: And I was just reading the hyperspec on Accessors.
2018-01-13T01:32:09Z Bike: Good jokebook.
2018-01-13T01:32:14Z babylisp: Get the memo?
2018-01-13T01:32:22Z babylisp: You need to lightin' up buttercup.
2018-01-13T01:32:46Z Bike: Yeah, I used to get told that when people stole my backpack and shit.
2018-01-13T01:32:51Z Bike: It's just a joke, man. Have a sense of humor.
2018-01-13T01:33:05Z babylisp: I am sorry you had to deal with that.
2018-01-13T01:33:12Z Bike: You really aren't.
2018-01-13T01:33:14Z babylisp: That is terrible. Bullying is not on in my book.
2018-01-13T01:33:18Z babylisp: I actually am, trust me.
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2018-01-13T01:34:18Z Bike: You aren't, because you're doing the same thing. Some stranger makes a joke at the expense of nerds and fucks with me. You make a joke at the expense of stuttering strangers.
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2018-01-13T01:35:16Z babylisp: I think there is a fine line between being abusive and just whack.
2018-01-13T01:35:50Z babylisp: And I am not discounting your feelings about the topic, I understand you have a strong stand against anything that could constitute bullying, and that is fair.
2018-01-13T01:36:04Z Bike: Of course you're not being _abusive_. You're not the guy taking the backpack. You're the guy in the background making jokes at the expense of the guy being bullied.
2018-01-13T01:36:16Z babylisp: Nah. Never.
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2018-01-13T01:36:29Z babylisp: Quite the opposite.
2018-01-13T01:37:04Z jmercouris: Bike: I think you're assuming quite a lot from a short interaction
2018-01-13T01:37:04Z Bike: You're, what, making jokes at the expense of the bully?
2018-01-13T01:37:15Z babylisp: You need to see my point of view, I am not even for making people excluded or less than others, let alone leave them abused or worst yet make fun of that.
2018-01-13T01:37:21Z jmercouris: It is not so easy to judge a character so thoroughly from one comment
2018-01-13T01:37:47Z Bike: I know you aren't making a conscious effort to exclude people. You just do it anyway and conceptualize it as hilarious.
2018-01-13T01:37:51Z jmercouris: anyways, I have to go for now, guests are over, let's all be kind to each other
2018-01-13T01:38:47Z babylisp: Bike: Look, I won't make jokes at the expense of bully, someone being physically harassed is not funny. I have actually got myself in big trouble many times in school over that.
2018-01-13T01:39:07Z Bike: Verbal harassment is okay though. Is that the line?
2018-01-13T01:39:13Z babylisp: There is a line.
2018-01-13T01:39:28Z babylisp: words are just that, words, it is the intention that counts.
2018-01-13T01:39:44Z babylisp: Many many people tell you nice sounding things while screwing you over hard.
2018-01-13T01:39:51Z babylisp: And there are people who crack a joke but has your back.
2018-01-13T01:40:10Z babylisp: Human interactions are not super simple.
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2018-01-13T01:40:43Z Bike: of course they aren't simple. it's not as simple as intention counting.
2018-01-13T01:40:46Z babylisp: I think you're being quick to label me as a bully just for a joke.
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2018-01-13T01:41:03Z Bike: i said, you're not a bully. you're just contributing.
2018-01-13T01:41:35Z babylisp: So, are we getting to the whole idea of Bullying Culture? Cause I think that is total bullshit.
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2018-01-13T01:41:45Z Bike: i don't know what that is.
2018-01-13T01:41:48Z babylisp: But I am dropping it. No use for this conversation, this is #lisp.
2018-01-13T01:42:12Z Bike: fine. use some discretion and don't crack random jokes at unrelated groups' expense.
2018-01-13T01:42:28Z jmercouris: I'll leave with one final link: https://freenode.net/changuide
2018-01-13T01:42:52Z babylisp: So no joke about people who stutter, short people, white people, black people, kids, elders, people with short fingers, and no joke about humans.
2018-01-13T01:43:00Z babylisp: Man, that would make life so boring.
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2018-01-13T01:43:12Z babylisp: And mind you, I am in at least three or four of that categories.
2018-01-13T01:43:53Z Bike: as part of human relations not being simple, categories are not all the same.
2018-01-13T01:43:58Z babylisp: And oh, no Asian jokes, no Middle Eastern people joke, no Arab joke, no vegan joke, no joke.
2018-01-13T01:44:06Z rme: why not try talking about lisp?
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2018-01-13T01:44:38Z babylisp: rme: Is there a nice book on writing a lisp compiler?
2018-01-13T01:44:48Z babylisp: Or rather, a book on compilers, that implements a lisp compiler?
2018-01-13T01:44:52Z Bike: lisp in small pieces.
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2018-01-13T01:45:55Z babylisp: Bike: Noice, I am gonna grab that once I finish PCL.
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2018-01-13T01:46:36Z rme: I think Norvig has some material about compiling as well, and it's a great book for learning CL generally.
2018-01-13T01:47:12Z rme: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming (PAIP), I mean.
2018-01-13T01:47:19Z Bike: the one in paip is simplistic. probably good if you have noe xperience
2018-01-13T01:47:32Z babylisp: jmercouris: I have been using IRC forever and I have never come across that guide, learn many of those over time though, but good sauce.
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2018-01-13T01:48:05Z rme: I found Steele's thesis describing his RABBIT compiler to be a good read.
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2018-01-13T01:49:38Z babylisp: rme: This one? https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Rabbit:_A_Compiler_for_Scheme
2018-01-13T01:51:13Z rme: yes, but the version at that link is not very readably formatted
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2018-01-13T01:53:40Z babylisp: rme: I am still searching, have a link to a better version?
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2018-01-13T01:55:25Z rme: ftp://publications.ai.mit.edu/ai-publications/pdf/AITR-474.pdf
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2018-01-13T01:56:27Z rme: Curiously, there are few, if any, papers that implement any kind of lisp compiler that targets actual hardware.  Usually it's bytecode or C.
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2018-01-13T02:10:36Z babylisp: rme: Thanks!
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2018-01-13T02:30:56Z p_l: rme: what about CMU Spice Lisp papers?
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2018-01-13T02:31:33Z p_l: rme: mind you, those cover 3 different implementation in one go (CMUCL, SBCL, SCL) which afaik didn't change *that* much in compiler
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2018-01-13T03:05:16Z shaftoe: anyone tried a system-wide quicklisp init that points to per-user $HOME/quicklisp ?
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2018-01-13T03:47:45Z dmiles: I wouldnt be able to find SIZE or DIMENSIONS as functions would of applicable to ARRAY using CLOS would i?
2018-01-13T03:48:07Z dmiles: (here is what i am doing .. https://pastebin.com/dn1Lub14 )
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2018-01-13T03:49:03Z dmiles: gotta scrool to line 139
2018-01-13T03:49:27Z jmercouris: I think the log is broken on ccl
2018-01-13T03:49:34Z jmercouris: https://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/lisp-2018-01.txt only includes until yesterday
2018-01-13T03:50:05Z jmercouris: the other log also appears to be broken
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2018-01-13T03:51:17Z 
2018-01-13T03:51:17Z names: ccl-logbot red-dot jmercouris Oladon ahungry heurist nowhere_man brandonz orivej jameser wxie damke turkja d4ryus1 nullniverse dy ebzzry fouric deba5e12 eschatologist wigust rumbler31 fortitude fittestbits nullman raynold zotan pierpa hexfive vutral quazimodo DeadTrickster milanj em justinmcp xristos brucem eMBee _death jurov dmh catern samebchase michalisko ksool pacon jackdaniel clog whaack Shinmera aijony Ziemas cyberlard lieven kjeldahl renard_
2018-01-13T03:51:17Z names: hvxgr stux|RC-- sveit Mandus dwts runejuhl Aritheanie gingerale AeroNotix uint tokenrove larsen dlowe pok stux|RC-only gko bend3r minion tokik cess11 guaqua swflint SlashLife alphor GGMethos zagura nikivi eschulte specbot mood cess11_ Fade gorgor Lord_Nightmare kini SAL9000 rotty peccu3 trn elts HDurer saemcro rjeli vsync koenig aoh jsnell malcom2073 lonjil shenghi galdor ecraven copec christoph_debian mulk flazh ft Tordek le4fy d4gg4d_ johs splittist
2018-01-13T03:51:17Z names: danlentz gendl devlaf gz_ joeygibson tobel XachX jeremyheiler trig-ger mbrock gbyers drmeister billstclair l1x CEnnis91 jerme_ Meow-J_ aaronjensen terrorjack banjiewen ggherdov mfiano luis TMA arrdem crazyeddy ramus dilated_dinosaur joast isoraqathedh Elite-Epochs drot Olgierd borodust chocolait White_Flame koisoke phoe nhandler butterthebuddha sukaeto DrPete flip214 beaky cross Firedancer sword osune_ gabot nyef`` whartung failproofshark tessier fluxit
2018-01-13T03:51:17Z names: anon_ anaumov mgsk MetaYan weltung z0d spacepluk alandipert cibs drdo sebastien_ djh norserob djinni` Xof sigjuice philosaur asedeno tfb kilimanjaro theBlackDragon GreaseMonkey malm guna_ leo_song _whitelogger benny hjudt froggey dxtr AntiSpamMeta Posterdati ym aeth nicdev kozy Lord_of_Life alms_clozure nimiux convexferret bailon funnel giraffe gilberth beach _krator44 ikopico xantoz wladz_ Poeticruel dotcra jself_ abbe rgrau akkad salva mtd
2018-01-13T03:51:17Z names: fiddlerwoaroof_ CharlieBrown les pchrist Riviera- kammd[m] mhitchman[m] Jach[m] kfdenden[m] hdurer[m] plll[m] hiq[m] katco[m] dirb ArthurAGleckler[ gigetoo Zhivago pillton rme tkd equalunique[m] gabiruh zkat ssake easye zooey eagleflo harmaahylje mnoonan manualcrank davsebamse lugh Blkt p_l jack_rabbit sellout creat kushal libreman razzy peterhil lxpz argoneus reu Kevslinger crsc terpri bitch nydel omilu tomaw grumble moei antoszka itruslove
2018-01-13T03:51:17Z names: groovy2shoes |3b| esthlos felideon RichardPaulBck[m cryptomarauder lemoinem ircbrowse Patzy misv pankracy mathrick larme otwieracz Cthulhux vhost- broccolistem paratox mrSpec MrBusiness tazjin jfb4 ebdreger Xach arbv dvdmuckle bkst Kaisyu7 cromachina micro cgay zmt00 kolb impulse yeticry __main__ jibanes drcode adulteratedjedi cods solene dcluna ninegrid vibs29 arrsim Arcaelyx vaporatorius dan64- Tristam QualityAddict khisanth_ bgardner elones azrazalea
2018-01-13T03:51:17Z names: Intensity zymurgy TeMPOraL raydeejay troydm zacts tripty aindilis schoppenhauer voidlily zaquest epony jsambrook jdz cpape pfdietz mingus pmden pjb ryanbw thinkpad tonton Oddity dmiles rvirding loke shaftoe phadthai ebrasca stylewarning JoJoen oleo drewc scymtym dim` sbryant @fe[nl]ix ericmathison cmatei jyc mjl Princess17b29a rann PyroLagus angular_mike presiden mitc0185 ckonstanski chens` vyzo tmc Rovanion askatasuna akash47 foom2 cpt_nemo borei
2018-01-13T03:51:17Z names: Nikotiini Xal
2018-01-13T03:52:27Z Xach: dmiles: http://l1sp.org/cl/size
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2018-01-13T03:53:41Z dmiles: Not found - /cl/size .. hthm
2018-01-13T03:54:14Z Xach: http://l1sp.org/cl/dimensions
2018-01-13T03:54:22Z Xach: if it's not found, it's not a CL symbol
2018-01-13T03:56:22Z dmiles: hrrm yet i am able to find non CL symbols in Lisp classes
2018-01-13T03:56:35Z rme: I just bounced ccl-logbot, but it's still not logging.  I don't know what the problem is right off hand.
2018-01-13T03:57:17Z dmiles: like  (:CI "CONDITION-CLASS" COMMON-LISP:SIMPLE-ERROR "slot" SB-KERNEL:FORMAT-CONTROL :INITARGS (:FORMAT-CONTROL))
2018-01-13T03:58:36Z Xach: That's not a slot that is accessible through standard ways.
2018-01-13T03:58:47Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2018-01-13T03:59:16Z Xach: or rather
2018-01-13T03:59:31Z Xach: there are defined, standard accessors that do not (and do not need to) match the slot name
2018-01-13T04:00:07Z Xach: in that case, SIMPLE-CONDITION-FORMAT-CONTROL is the reader (not accessor)
2018-01-13T04:00:33Z dmiles: ah yeah// that makes sense
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2018-01-13T04:01:40Z jmercouris: rme: Can you just turn it on and off again?
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2018-01-13T04:36:24Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-01-13T04:49:14Z jmercouris: beach: Good morning
2018-01-13T04:49:22Z jmercouris: the irc log system is down, did you get my email?
2018-01-13T04:49:29Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2018-01-13T04:49:46Z beach: Yes, thanks.  I have processed about half if your comments.
2018-01-13T04:50:50Z red-dot quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com))
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2018-01-13T04:57:41Z 
2018-01-13T04:57:41Z names: ccl-logbot fikka red-dot krasnal bkst shifty eli vancan1ty jasom schoppenhauer _sebbot jmercouris Oladon ahungry heurist nowhere_man brandonz orivej jameser damke turkja d4ryus1 ebzzry fouric deba5e12 eschatologist wigust rumbler31 fortitude fittestbits nullman raynold zotan pierpa hexfive vutral quazimodo DeadTrickster milanj em justinmcp xristos brucem eMBee _death jurov dmh catern samebchase michalisko ksool pacon jackdaniel clog whaack Shinmera
2018-01-13T04:57:41Z names: aijony Ziemas cyberlard lieven kjeldahl renard_ hvxgr stux|RC-- sveit Mandus dwts runejuhl Aritheanie gingerale AeroNotix uint tokenrove larsen dlowe pok stux|RC-only gko bend3r minion tokik cess11 guaqua swflint SlashLife alphor GGMethos zagura nikivi eschulte specbot mood cess11_ Fade gorgor Lord_Nightmare kini SAL9000 rotty peccu3 trn elts HDurer saemcro rjeli vsync koenig aoh jsnell malcom2073 lonjil shenghi galdor ecraven copec christoph_debian
2018-01-13T04:57:41Z names: mulk flazh ft Tordek le4fy d4gg4d_ johs splittist danlentz gendl devlaf gz_ joeygibson tobel XachX jeremyheiler trig-ger mbrock gbyers drmeister billstclair l1x CEnnis91 jerme_ Meow-J_ aaronjensen terrorjack banjiewen ggherdov mfiano luis TMA arrdem crazyeddy ramus dilated_dinosaur joast isoraqathedh Elite-Epochs drot Olgierd borodust chocolait White_Flame koisoke phoe nhandler butterthebuddha sukaeto DrPete flip214 beaky cross Firedancer sword osune_
2018-01-13T04:57:41Z names: gabot nyef`` whartung failproofshark tessier fluxit anon_ anaumov mgsk MetaYan weltung z0d spacepluk alandipert cibs drdo sebastien_ djh norserob djinni` Xof sigjuice philosaur asedeno tfb kilimanjaro theBlackDragon GreaseMonkey malm guna_ leo_song _whitelogger benny hjudt froggey dxtr AntiSpamMeta Posterdati ym aeth nicdev kozy Lord_of_Life alms_clozure nimiux convexferret bailon funnel giraffe gilberth beach _krator44 ikopico xantoz wladz_ Poeticruel
2018-01-13T04:57:41Z names: dotcra jself_ abbe rgrau akkad salva mtd fiddlerwoaroof_ CharlieBrown les pchrist Riviera- kammd[m] mhitchman[m] Jach[m] kfdenden[m] hdurer[m] plll[m] hiq[m] katco[m] dirb ArthurAGleckler[ gigetoo Zhivago pillton rme tkd equalunique[m] gabiruh zkat ssake easye zooey eagleflo harmaahylje mnoonan manualcrank davsebamse lugh Blkt p_l jack_rabbit sellout creat kushal libreman razzy peterhil lxpz argoneus reu Kevslinger crsc terpri bitch nydel omilu tomaw
2018-01-13T04:57:41Z names: grumble moei antoszka itruslove groovy2shoes |3b| esthlos felideon RichardPaulBck[m cryptomarauder lemoinem ircbrowse Patzy misv pankracy mathrick larme otwieracz Cthulhux vhost- broccolistem paratox mrSpec MrBusiness tazjin jfb4 ebdreger Xach arbv dvdmuckle Kaisyu7 cromachina micro cgay zmt00 kolb impulse yeticry __main__ jibanes drcode adulteratedjedi cods solene dcluna ninegrid vibs29 arrsim Arcaelyx vaporatorius dan64- QualityAddict khisanth_
2018-01-13T04:57:41Z names: bgardner elones azrazalea Intensity zymurgy TeMPOraL raydeejay troydm zacts tripty aindilis voidlily zaquest epony jsambrook jdz cpape pfdietz mingus pmden pjb ryanbw thinkpad tonton Oddity dmiles rvirding loke shaftoe phadthai ebrasca stylewarning JoJoen oleo drewc scymtym dim` sbryant @fe[nl]ix ericmathison cmatei jyc mjl Princess17b29a rann PyroLagus angular_mike presiden mitc0185 chens` vyzo tmc Rovanion askatasuna akash47 foom2 cpt_nemo borei
2018-01-13T04:57:41Z names: Nikotiini Xal
2018-01-13T04:58:10Z aeth: Those lines were unlogged :o
2018-01-13T04:59:15Z beach: jmercouris: I use the logs at tunes: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/18.01.??
2018-01-13T04:59:35Z beach: jmercouris: And I just download them all so that I can use `grep'.
2018-01-13T04:59:53Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2018-01-13T05:00:10Z jmercouris: beach: It was a good paper yeah, but I was also very sleepy when I read it
2018-01-13T05:00:16Z jmercouris: so I didn't absorb all of it
2018-01-13T05:00:24Z beach: I understand.
2018-01-13T05:01:09Z jmercouris: very interesting concept
2018-01-13T05:01:46Z jmercouris: I didn't even realize that was a thing within lisp, on some level i know lisp is a compiled language, but mentally I am always still thinking of it as evaluated, so I don't think of the same techniques being applied
2018-01-13T05:02:00Z beach: Thanks!
2018-01-13T05:02:26Z stylewarning: Hey friends
2018-01-13T05:02:31Z jmercouris: also hello
2018-01-13T05:02:38Z beach: Hello stylewarning.
2018-01-13T05:03:03Z beach: jmercouris: Oh, the same techniques are definitely applied.  But they can become messier than what is documented in the literature, simply because the traditional languages used in the compilation literature are simpler, C-like, languages.
2018-01-13T05:03:24Z beach: And of course, we need a few more, like type inference.
2018-01-13T05:03:39Z jmercouris: beach: Yes, I imagine there is a much more straightforward path, especially because already so much time has been invested in c compiler development for example
2018-01-13T05:03:57Z beach: Indeed.
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2018-01-13T05:05:29Z rme: It beats me why ccl-logbot is not working. When I'm over the flu, I'll try to investigate more.
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2018-01-13T05:05:59Z jmercouris: rme: Feel better!
2018-01-13T05:06:12Z beach: jmercouris: One purpose of the SICL project is to implement as many of the documented optimization techniques as possible.  For that, we use an intermediate representation called HIR.  Many of those techniques need to be adapted to the special case of Common Lisp, hence my research.
2018-01-13T05:06:41Z jmercouris: beach: So basically is SICL a demonstrator project or do you intend to turn it into a full fledged implementation?
2018-01-13T05:06:55Z beach: The latter.  But it is not imminent.
2018-01-13T05:07:05Z SaganMan: Good Morning!
2018-01-13T05:07:09Z beach: I am also attempting a very novel bootstrapping technique.
2018-01-13T05:07:14Z beach: Hello SaganMan.
2018-01-13T05:07:20Z jmercouris: beach: Yeah I saw it bootstrapping off of sbcl, that confused me
2018-01-13T05:07:26Z jmercouris: What is the reasoning for that?
2018-01-13T05:07:34Z jmercouris: SaganMan: guten morgen
2018-01-13T05:07:37Z beach: Yes, it confuses many people, and I have no idea why.
2018-01-13T05:07:58Z jmercouris: beach: Well, it seems strange to me that CL should boot off of CL, I'd expect a lower level language
2018-01-13T05:08:13Z beach: Many people do, and I have no idea why.
2018-01-13T05:08:15Z jmercouris: The difference being that in CL we have multiple implementations, so it makes sense
2018-01-13T05:08:28Z beach: jmercouris: GCC is written in C.
2018-01-13T05:08:36Z SaganMan: jmercouris: ach desutch eh, Guten Morgen
2018-01-13T05:08:37Z beach: I don't see why a Common Lisp implementation can't be written in Common Lisp.
2018-01-13T05:08:37Z jmercouris: to boot another implementation off another, I guess this luxury is not afforded in other languages, which is why it seems so strange
2018-01-13T05:08:53Z beach: jmercouris: It happens all the time.
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2018-01-13T05:09:00Z beach: jmercouris: Pascal was written in Pascal.
2018-01-13T05:09:23Z jmercouris: beach: How could pascal be written in pascal? surely some code must exist in binary somewhere to load this pascal
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2018-01-13T05:09:28Z beach: In fact, it is standard practice, just to demonstrate the power of a new language to write the compiler in itself.
2018-01-13T05:10:04Z beach: jmercouris: Some initial steps may require some simpler language, but once you have a first compiler, you are set for life.
2018-01-13T05:10:55Z jmercouris: beach: What if this first compiler introduces some performance penalties of a sort that require a rewrite of the language or vice versa?
2018-01-13T05:10:59Z SaganMan: how is common lisp written beach?
2018-01-13T05:11:09Z beach: jmercouris: I am planning an article on bootstrapping Common Lisp, and it will contain an analysis of this strange thinking that you need to write a Common Lisp system in something other than Common Lisp.
2018-01-13T05:11:37Z jmercouris: beach: I look forward to it, it's a question I've actually been wondering for a while
2018-01-13T05:12:04Z copec: learn x86 assembly with the art of assembly level programming
2018-01-13T05:12:07Z beach: jmercouris: Performance is not a problem.  It can be fixed.  Code generation bugs are more delicate.
2018-01-13T05:12:27Z copec: It uses a language invented by the author... "high level assembly"
2018-01-13T05:12:34Z jmercouris: copec: x86 is like tears in rain, hopefully we'll be rid of it when windows provides an arm build
2018-01-13T05:12:37Z copec: it's really easy to see how you could build up  to common lisp
2018-01-13T05:12:57Z rme: x86 is more like tar on your shoe
2018-01-13T05:13:09Z jmercouris: copec: I already know assembly, I don't see how that explains building cl in cl
2018-01-13T05:13:14Z beach: SaganMan: Like I said, many people self-impose strange constraints which influences the way they write their Common Lisp systems.
2018-01-13T05:13:18Z jmercouris: rather, I know A assmebly
2018-01-13T05:13:21Z beach: SaganMan: So it varies a lot.
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2018-01-13T05:14:02Z jmercouris: rme: I guarantee it, in 50 years, we will no longer use ARM
2018-01-13T05:14:03Z copec: jmercouris, well when I learned HLA it made the path to bootstrap higher and higher level languages in the language itself clear
2018-01-13T05:14:19Z copec: lisp style
2018-01-13T05:14:42Z jmercouris: copec: human leukocyte antigen?
2018-01-13T05:14:59Z copec: "High Level Assembly"
2018-01-13T05:15:15Z beach: copec: That's typical thinking in implementing Common Lisp, i.e. that one has to start with a low-level language.  But that is absolutely not necessary.
2018-01-13T05:15:21Z aeth: jmercouris: ARM will definitely be disrupted by somethign cheaper, e.g. RISC-V
2018-01-13T05:15:32Z copec: well, no
2018-01-13T05:15:35Z aeth: s/somethign/something/
2018-01-13T05:15:59Z jmercouris: aeth: My vote is on powerpc making a comback :D
2018-01-13T05:16:09Z copec: If you have a running CL then of course you could build all the compilation in CL
2018-01-13T05:16:20Z beach: And we do.
2018-01-13T05:16:36Z jmercouris: copec: I've also implemented Lisp in both Python and CL, so I'm aware of how making languages work, I don't see how learning another assembly language will help me conceptualize this
2018-01-13T05:16:39Z beach: ... have a running Common Lisp.
2018-01-13T05:16:47Z jmercouris: copec: s/cl/c
2018-01-13T05:17:07Z copec: perhaps it is just how I think then
2018-01-13T05:17:22Z copec: I got used to seeing lisp defined in lisp, etc.
2018-01-13T05:17:36Z jmercouris: maybe it just needs time to sink in or something
2018-01-13T05:20:52Z beach: What I find amusing is that a person who wants to implement a Common Lisp, presumably wants to do that because he or she thinks that Common Lisp is a good language, but then often that same person goes right ahead and writes the system in some other language.
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2018-01-13T05:21:33Z jmercouris: that is pretty funny isn't it, they end up spending so much time in the other language
2018-01-13T05:21:40Z beach: Exactly.
2018-01-13T05:21:49Z jmercouris: I don't see how it would be possible for something like ecl though to not be written in C
2018-01-13T05:21:51Z aeth: I'm guessing the reason is that they think they can get better performance from C or C++ as the implementation language
2018-01-13T05:22:00Z jmercouris: is ECL written in C?
2018-01-13T05:22:18Z beach: jmercouris: Partly, yes.
2018-01-13T05:22:22Z pjb: About half of it. Like clisp.
2018-01-13T05:22:42Z beach: jmercouris: It would be foolish to attempt to write the Common Lisp compiler in anything other than Common Lisp, for instance.
2018-01-13T05:23:04Z beach: But even the SBCL compiler is written without using generic functions and standard classes.
2018-01-13T05:23:20Z jmercouris: so I assume the basic stuff is in C? Like reading tokens from a file?
2018-01-13T05:23:22Z copec: SBCL still uses C for the bottom layer
2018-01-13T05:23:27Z beach: It must be like working with one hand tied behind one's back.
2018-01-13T05:23:38Z aeth: copec: Afaik, the C is mostly the GC in SBCL
2018-01-13T05:23:43Z pjb: Actually, a typical step in bootstrapping a language written in itself, is to implement an interpreter of that language (in another language).
2018-01-13T05:24:04Z pjb: On the assumption that implementing an interpreter is simplier than a compiler, so using a lesser language may be doable.
2018-01-13T05:24:10Z aeth: pjb: CL doesn't need bootstrapping, though, except I guess to target other architectures? Although maybe you can cross-compile?
2018-01-13T05:24:13Z beach: pjb: Only for the first implementation.
2018-01-13T05:24:17Z jmercouris: pjb: So you mean you implement none of the standard libs, just the core features?
2018-01-13T05:24:20Z aeth: How would someone go about porting CL to RISC V?
2018-01-13T05:24:31Z pjb: And indeed, bootstrapping only occurs once for ever.
2018-01-13T05:24:43Z copec: It compiles a skeleton in C as the first phase binary
2018-01-13T05:24:44Z pjb: aeth: cross-compilation.
2018-01-13T05:24:52Z copec: essentially that is how they implement the ABI
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2018-01-13T05:24:53Z jmercouris: So theoretically, since ECL should run anywhere C can run
2018-01-13T05:25:03Z copec: then that loads the core
2018-01-13T05:25:04Z aeth: pjb: Then CL never needed to bootstrap since it predates pretty much everything except Fortran, and was never written in Fortran
2018-01-13T05:25:05Z jmercouris: you should be able to boostrap any CL onto any system that can run C?
2018-01-13T05:25:22Z pjb: I would argue that a compiler that doesn't include cross-compilation in its core is necessarily of lesser quality than one that does.
2018-01-13T05:25:22Z aeth: pjb: You would just write CL in its direct predecessor Lisp
2018-01-13T05:25:46Z pjb: aeth: yes, LISP was implemented in 7090 assembly
2018-01-13T05:25:59Z jmercouris: pjb: at least it's not x86
2018-01-13T05:26:00Z beach: jmercouris: It is much more complicated than that.  It is not about porting the system, but about retargeting the code generator.
2018-01-13T05:26:14Z jmercouris: beach: code generator? what does that mean?
2018-01-13T05:26:16Z beach: jmercouris: ECL generates C so that is fairly straightforward.
2018-01-13T05:26:23Z beach: jmercouris: What the compiler generates.
2018-01-13T05:26:31Z aeth: (Okay, CL itself doesn't predate most languages, but it's mostly compatible with historic Lisps, so it shouldn't be hard to bootstrap CL from an historic Lisp. I should clarify before someone corrects me.)
2018-01-13T05:26:31Z jmercouris: ah, ok, so the actual binary
2018-01-13T05:26:45Z copec: SBCL generates its own object code segments
2018-01-13T05:26:55Z copec: but it gets there from the compiled C skeleton
2018-01-13T05:26:58Z beach: jmercouris: Sort of.  What the compiler generates when you type a form at the REPL.
2018-01-13T05:27:15Z rme: Historically, it has taken 3 or 4 wizard-months to add a compiler backend for a new architecture to CCL.
2018-01-13T05:27:15Z jmercouris: Okay, so the representation changes on a per system basis?
2018-01-13T05:27:18Z jmercouris: Why would that be?
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2018-01-13T05:27:31Z beach: jmercouris: Different processors.
2018-01-13T05:27:35Z rme: Other implementations may, of course, differ.
2018-01-13T05:27:39Z beach: jmercouris: Different system calls.
2018-01-13T05:27:46Z jmercouris: so you tailor the representation to the instruction set?
2018-01-13T05:27:51Z jmercouris: or to the system calls available?
2018-01-13T05:27:52Z pjb: I mean, it is way easier to write a generator for a binary file format to be loaded on a new system, than to try to bootstrap on that new system.
2018-01-13T05:28:03Z beach: jmercouris: Er, yes.  The compiler often generates native code.
2018-01-13T05:28:21Z jmercouris: maybe I should try writing a simple compiler
2018-01-13T05:28:24Z jmercouris: instead of just an interpreter
2018-01-13T05:28:28Z pjb: and writing a compiler backend for a new processor still remains easier than bootstrapping on that new processor.
2018-01-13T05:29:11Z pjb: jmercouris: actually, IMO writing an interpreter for a high level language is more difficult than writing a compiler!
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2018-01-13T05:29:52Z jmercouris: pjb: that's interesting, doesn't it take more time to write a compiler though?
2018-01-13T05:30:07Z pjb: jmercouris: but you're right, the key word is "simple" here.  Writing a simple compiler is simple.  Writing a highly optimizing compiler is more difficult.
2018-01-13T05:30:40Z aeth: pjb: Fortunately, there's lots of room for improvement.
2018-01-13T05:30:54Z pjb: An easy solution is to write a simple compiler targetting a VM specially designed for the language.
2018-01-13T05:31:07Z aeth: As long as the fastest language is C or C++ or Fortran with only Rust coming close, there's lots of room for compilers to catch up.
2018-01-13T05:31:08Z pjb: VM are simple to write, simple compilers are simple to write.  Win-win.
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2018-01-13T05:37:04Z copec: beach: What I was trying to communicate is not that I would write a CL implementation starting in HLA, but that the HLA language itself uses a lot of elegant abstractions for writing assembly that all could easily map into CL
2018-01-13T05:37:38Z beach: OK.
2018-01-13T05:37:55Z copec: So instead of a traditional compiler that lex's, parses, intermediate, etc.
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2018-01-13T05:38:26Z copec: I could imagine a building up to CL written in CL
2018-01-13T05:38:29Z copec: If that makes sense
2018-01-13T05:39:03Z beach: Not quite, but it's early in the morning and I am not quite awake yet.
2018-01-13T05:43:17Z beach: In a Common Lisp system, the machine code would be processed by Common Lisp code, so there would be no need to write much assembly at all.
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2018-01-13T05:46:12Z beach: I guess I don't know what abstraction that "map into CL" means.  Nor do I understand what "building up to CL written in CL" means.
2018-01-13T05:46:42Z aeth: Afaik, pretty much every abstraction can be expressed in CL, that's what makes it so great.
2018-01-13T05:46:50Z aeth: In other languages, syntax gets in the way.
2018-01-13T05:47:20Z beach: But I am notorious for having difficulties understanding what other people mean.
2018-01-13T05:49:50Z loke: beach: It's not just you. I read the scrollback, and I'm not entirely sure myself.
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2018-01-13T05:54:54Z beach: loke: Ah, OK.  Thanks!
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2018-01-13T05:57:50Z aeth: copec: Could you provide an example in a pastebin?
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2018-01-13T06:11:49Z jmercouris: I have a hash-table that uses a struct as a key. I use equalp comparison as the test for my hash table. My struct is composed of a field "character" which has a value of a character that may be upper or lowercase. Currently, my hash-table cannot distinguish between an upper and lower case character, how can I fix this?
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2018-01-13T06:16:51Z loke: jmercouris: Yes. You have discovered one of the worst parts of CL.
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2018-01-13T06:17:23Z loke: jmercouris: What you want to do can't be done with hashtables as defined by the spec. Most CL implementations however implement support for custom hashes. You can use those.
2018-01-13T06:17:42Z loke: jmercouris: Or, you can use an alternative hashtable implementations. There are several on QL.
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2018-01-13T06:18:35Z rme: can't you use an equal hash table instead of an equalp hash table?
2018-01-13T06:19:22Z loke: rme: EQUAL on structs acts as EQ
2018-01-13T06:19:30Z loke: I.e. identity comparison
2018-01-13T06:19:33Z loke: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_equal.htm
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2018-01-13T06:21:25Z jmercouris: loke: That's too bad
2018-01-13T06:21:35Z jmercouris: I was hoping to avoid something like that, but it may be necessary it seems
2018-01-13T06:22:01Z loke: jmercouris: If you're OK with sticking to a given implementation of CL, you can always use vendor extensions
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2018-01-13T06:22:11Z loke: Otherwise, the third-party implementations are good.
2018-01-13T06:22:15Z jmercouris: I have to support sbcl and ccl, so that adds some complexity
2018-01-13T06:22:29Z loke: I think cl-containers has one
2018-01-13T06:22:40Z jmercouris: I may have to use a third party implementation, or add a struct slot "uppercase-p" or something
2018-01-13T06:23:45Z loke: jmercouris: You'd need one mer character. :-)
2018-01-13T06:23:48Z loke: per
2018-01-13T06:24:03Z loke: You could also save the strings as UTF-8 encoded byte arrays
2018-01-13T06:24:09Z loke: (horrific, I know)
2018-01-13T06:24:31Z jmercouris: loke: I'd need one more character? what do you mean?
2018-01-13T06:24:57Z loke: jmercouris: You' dneed to store the upper/lowercase state for each character.
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2018-01-13T06:25:18Z loke: You can't distinguish between FOO Foo and foo using only one bit.
2018-01-13T06:25:31Z jmercouris: loke: My struct only supports a single char
2018-01-13T06:25:37Z loke: I see
2018-01-13T06:25:40Z jmercouris: so I can distinguish between a and A using only one bit
2018-01-13T06:25:49Z loke: jmercouris: Store it as a numeric code (CHAR-CODE) then.
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2018-01-13T06:26:38Z loke: The thing is, upper/lowercase is actually a uch more complicated concept than you might think, and the CL spec is so weak on the subject that you can't rely on it.
2018-01-13T06:26:51Z loke: (mainly because CL was designed before Unicode)
2018-01-13T06:26:54Z jmercouris: I think char-code is good actually
2018-01-13T06:27:10Z jmercouris: I'll actually truly have to convert to a char, then a char code, but that makes sense
2018-01-13T06:27:27Z jmercouris: it is actually a string of length 1 currently, but char-code it is
2018-01-13T06:27:28Z rme: loke: thanks; you're quite right
2018-01-13T06:27:39Z jmercouris: what's the reverse of char-code?
2018-01-13T06:27:46Z jmercouris: (code-char?)
2018-01-13T06:27:55Z jmercouris: wow, it actually is that
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2018-01-13T06:28:05Z jmercouris: thank you for your help
2018-01-13T06:28:14Z jmercouris: do I have your permission to repost this in my github issue?
2018-01-13T06:28:18Z jmercouris: loke: that is
2018-01-13T06:30:28Z loke: jmercouris: Permission? WHat? I don't know what you need permission for, but whatever it is you want, you have it :-)
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2018-01-13T06:33:11Z jmercouris: I meant the chat transcript; here: https://github.com/nEXT-Browser/nEXT/issues/58#issuecomment-357413238
2018-01-13T06:33:26Z jmercouris: loke: Thank you once again, I'd forgot about char-code, and wouldn't have thought of it
2018-01-13T06:33:39Z jmercouris: though, code-char is new to me, it seems obvious now
2018-01-13T06:33:55Z jmercouris: are there any functions in the spec that use the arrow operator like code->char ?
2018-01-13T06:34:28Z rme: nope
2018-01-13T06:34:33Z loke: No
2018-01-13T06:35:07Z loke: You can create your own (defun code→char (c) (code-char c))
2018-01-13T06:35:45Z loke: We have Unicode. Why not use it? (that said, I have only used non-ASCII characters in symbols once... and that code has been subsequently removed)
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2018-01-13T06:36:23Z jmercouris: are you saying we could write emoji functions?
2018-01-13T06:36:27Z loke: I used it in a reader macro to add special syntax to the ≡ symbol
2018-01-13T06:36:38Z loke: jmercouris: That is exactly what I'm saying
2018-01-13T06:36:50Z jmercouris: this could be a great way to get teenagers into common lisp instead of other languages
2018-01-13T06:37:06Z jmercouris: "javascript is great and all for unifying server/client side, but can you make emoji functions?"
2018-01-13T06:37:18Z loke: Unfortunately... someone is way ahead of you: http://www.emojicode.org/
2018-01-13T06:37:28Z jmercouris: I mean you can use that as a follow up on literally anything "yeah, that's great, but can you use emojis for X"?
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2018-01-13T06:38:29Z jmercouris: loke: What a waste of human intellect
2018-01-13T06:39:11Z loke: 😀 🔤Howdy, pThis is a string🔤
2018-01-13T06:39:17Z aeth: jmercouris: emoji encourages people to support Unicode
2018-01-13T06:39:37Z aeth: which is a good thing for nearly every language that isn't English
2018-01-13T06:39:39Z loke: 🔤 is apparently used for strings, and 😀 is print
2018-01-13T06:39:47Z loke: That is hillarious :-)
2018-01-13T06:39:49Z reinuseslisp: #x01F524
2018-01-13T06:39:53Z reinuseslisp: language?
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2018-01-13T06:40:26Z jmercouris: aeth: I'm not interested in supporting non-english programming languages, I like that everything is unified in one language
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2018-01-13T06:40:35Z loke: aeth: Even English speakers sometimes needs to talk about € or ¥. Or they might was to say it's 20° outside.
2018-01-13T06:40:40Z jmercouris: the last thing we need is programming languages in every language, that sounds like a nightmare
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2018-01-13T06:41:05Z jmercouris: I know non-english programming languages exist, thankfully they are not well adopted
2018-01-13T06:41:17Z reinuseslisp: as a non-english speaker I support jmercouris
2018-01-13T06:41:32Z loke: jmercouris: If I recall correclty, Microsoft VBA used to be language-deendent... In the swedish version of VBA you'd wrote SKRIV "Test" to print something.
2018-01-13T06:42:05Z loke: And of course, if you had Swedish VBA in a document, that document wouldn't work right if loaded into an English version of Office... Because of course... This is Microsoft we're talking about.
2018-01-13T06:43:08Z jmercouris: reinuseslisp: Can you imagine editing source code written in Mandarin?
2018-01-13T06:43:28Z jmercouris: that would be something :D
2018-01-13T06:43:47Z reinuseslisp: I would have to decode it first
2018-01-13T06:43:47Z aeth: This sounds fairly trivial to do in Lisp
2018-01-13T06:43:52Z loke: jmercouris: Take a look at code written by Japanese programmers some day
2018-01-13T06:44:07Z reinuseslisp: when you get out of words, Mandarin works like a charm though
2018-01-13T06:44:22Z jmercouris: I'm sure it would make for very compact source code
2018-01-13T06:44:34Z jmercouris: I guess then, why not program in emojis, since that is also a glyph language
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2018-01-13T06:44:49Z aeth: You should be able to write translations of Common Lisp that can run portably on Unicode-supporting implementations.
2018-01-13T06:44:51Z jmercouris: imagine trying to keep in mind symbols for every variable
2018-01-13T06:44:54Z beach: Multics Pascal had an option for using French keywords.
2018-01-13T06:45:03Z loke: I recall way back in the 90's when I was working for Sun, I was supporting Java. We had a bug report where one developer couldn't compile his code on Windows... Turns out all his class names were in Japanese, and Windows doesn't use unicode to store files (they use some weird mash-up of encodings based on the language of the Windows installation)
2018-01-13T06:45:08Z jmercouris: literally how would you make up variable names in a language with no alphabet
2018-01-13T06:45:12Z loke: None of that worked in the Java compiler
2018-01-13T06:45:33Z reinuseslisp: aeth: something like #:common-lisp-es #:common-lisp-jp packages
2018-01-13T06:45:37Z reinuseslisp: ?
2018-01-13T06:45:45Z aeth: reinuseslisp: exactly
2018-01-13T06:45:51Z aeth: reinuseslisp: and the best part is you can mix them!
2018-01-13T06:46:00Z aeth: Your French Lisp could use both "and" and "et"
2018-01-13T06:46:11Z jmercouris: but why?
2018-01-13T06:46:11Z aeth: They'd both ultimately be "and"
2018-01-13T06:46:13Z loke: jmercouris: What do you mean? Nothing prevents you from naming a variabe 大
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2018-01-13T06:46:39Z jmercouris: loke: Wouldn't that be confusing using variable names that may not be representable by a character that doesn't exist?
2018-01-13T06:46:45Z reinuseslisp: 「大」と
2018-01-13T06:46:49Z jmercouris: Think about new concepts that need to be represented
2018-01-13T06:47:04Z jmercouris: In english, you'd invent a name, write it down, document it, and it would be pronouncable
2018-01-13T06:47:16Z loke: jmercouris: right. Why can't you do it in other languages?
2018-01-13T06:47:16Z jmercouris: in chinese, the reader would know literally nothing about the meaning of a character
2018-01-13T06:47:19Z jmercouris: NOR could they even look it up
2018-01-13T06:47:26Z jmercouris: if it was said out loud for example
2018-01-13T06:47:27Z loke: jmercouris: that's not how Chionese works.
2018-01-13T06:47:35Z jmercouris: I know chinese dictionaries exist
2018-01-13T06:47:37Z jmercouris: but they are a joke
2018-01-13T06:47:47Z aeth: jmercouris: If you can't express a concept as a word in one language, you can just use a phrase instead
2018-01-13T06:48:08Z loke: jmercouris: You don't invent new characters. Each symbol has a specific pronounciation in the given dialect, and is a single syllable. You make multi-syllable words by stringing them togteher.
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2018-01-13T06:48:31Z jmercouris: loke: I'm familiar with this, but that doesn't mean anything, there are inconsistencies all over the place
2018-01-13T06:48:51Z jmercouris: and MANY words are single symbols
2018-01-13T06:49:32Z loke: jmercouris: yes, of course. Just like there are many words in English that are single syllables.
2018-01-13T06:49:35Z jmercouris: I think as a rule from most to least acceptable english -> language with alphabet -> language with pseudoalphabet -> language with glyphs
2018-01-13T06:49:58Z loke: I mean, I can write "wen", or I can write "文".
2018-01-13T06:50:20Z jmercouris: loke: And which one is easier to distinguish on a small display? which one can be looked up in a dictionary?
2018-01-13T06:50:22Z aeth: jmercouris: I want to write a programming language in Egyptian hieroglyphs now
2018-01-13T06:50:24Z reinuseslisp: Japanese is not in your categories
2018-01-13T06:50:29Z loke: jmercouris: No. You are using thw wrong terminilogy here. "gryphs" are just the things you write. 文 is a glyph, but A is a glyph too.
2018-01-13T06:50:46Z jmercouris: loke: Okay, I mean glyphs with a 1:1 word glyph mapping
2018-01-13T06:51:01Z reinuseslisp: jmercouris: you are talking like if you can't copy and paste it to read it
2018-01-13T06:51:05Z loke: You are thinking of logographic languages, but there are no true logographic languages in use today.
2018-01-13T06:51:10Z jmercouris: reinuseslisp: Can you copy and paste in real life?
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2018-01-13T06:51:21Z loke: Chinese is mostly syllabic
2018-01-13T06:51:24Z jmercouris: If I give you a document can you physically copy and paste a sheet of paper?
2018-01-13T06:51:33Z loke: All logograph languages evolved to be syllabic
2018-01-13T06:51:36Z reinuseslisp: well, we were talking about programming, didn't we?
2018-01-13T06:51:48Z jmercouris: reinuseslisp: Lots of times programming docs are printed out
2018-01-13T06:52:07Z jmercouris: loke: and yet, some of them are more sucky than others
2018-01-13T06:52:22Z jmercouris: I believe there are better and worst languages for given applications
2018-01-13T06:52:26Z aeth: Things aren't set in stone enough to print out these days
2018-01-13T06:52:40Z jmercouris: I don't pretend that english is suitable for all applications, but for programming certainly
2018-01-13T06:52:40Z aeth: Language specs are pretty much it
2018-01-13T06:52:43Z loke: jmercouris: How many languages with non-latin writing systems do oyu know?
2018-01-13T06:52:50Z reinuseslisp: this is like a 80-column discussion
2018-01-13T06:52:51Z jmercouris: loke: depends on your definition
2018-01-13T06:52:58Z jmercouris: what is a non-latin writing system?
2018-01-13T06:53:06Z jmercouris: my first language has a non latin alphabet
2018-01-13T06:53:11Z loke: jmercouris: You calearly haven't studies russian if you think that English is ideal for programming.
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2018-01-13T06:53:32Z loke: jmercouris: Cyrillic is significantly better than Latin.
2018-01-13T06:53:38Z jmercouris: loke: Is it though? I don't think so
2018-01-13T06:53:48Z jmercouris: I speak Greek, and I don't for a second think it is more suited
2018-01-13T06:53:57Z loke: jmercouris: It has a much better mapping between sounds and symbols.
2018-01-13T06:53:58Z jmercouris: and the cyrillic alphabet is just modified Greek alphabet
2018-01-13T06:54:02Z aeth: loke: English is ideal for programming... because in UTF-8, it's (almost) entirely ASCII
2018-01-13T06:54:03Z jmercouris: the same is true in greek
2018-01-13T06:54:11Z jmercouris: any written word is literally pronouncable as written
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2018-01-13T06:54:15Z aeth: loke: Spanish has a really good mapping between sounds and symbols and uses the Latin alphabet
2018-01-13T06:54:27Z reinuseslisp: así es
2018-01-13T06:54:34Z loke: jmercouris: Right. It's likely greek is even better. I don't want to discuss that since I don't speak a word of greek... (wait, no. I know one word: efharisto)
2018-01-13T06:54:37Z aeth: loke: The problem is that languages evolve and certain languages (especially English and French) don't like doing reforms to their spelling.
2018-01-13T06:54:52Z aeth: French preserves some spellings that last made sense in the time of *Latin*
2018-01-13T06:55:03Z jmercouris: I'm trying to remember, there is this southeast asian language where the spelling is completely unrelated to the pronouncation because it is just so old
2018-01-13T06:55:22Z jmercouris: maybe it is cambodian I am thinking of
2018-01-13T06:55:40Z loke: jmercouris: You're thinking of Tibetam
2018-01-13T06:55:42Z loke: Tibetan
2018-01-13T06:55:49Z aeth: I know a word of Greek. και
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2018-01-13T06:56:10Z reinuseslisp: I know some dated names
2018-01-13T06:56:33Z jmercouris: aeth: lol nice, I'll teach you one more πατατα
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2018-01-13T06:56:49Z jmercouris: it means potato
2018-01-13T06:56:58Z aeth: I guessed
2018-01-13T06:57:11Z aeth: I can *read* Greek, I just don't know what it means.
2018-01-13T06:57:19Z aeth: I know the full alphabet
2018-01-13T06:57:53Z beach: To get back to the topic: Would anyone be interested in implementing the GraphViz algorithms in Common Lisp?
2018-01-13T06:58:10Z beach: I think it would be great to have such an implementation, and the algorithms are well documented.
2018-01-13T06:58:38Z jmercouris: aeth: alright, here's a string guess the following words: τηλέφωνο. σούπα. τηλεόραση. σουβλάκι. πόλη. πολύ.
2018-01-13T06:58:58Z aeth: telephono (telephone?)
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2018-01-13T06:59:11Z aeth: ugh, the new antialiasing is terrible for non-Latin so I might miss a few of these
2018-01-13T06:59:13Z beach: Shinmera has plans to implement some graph-layout algorithms, but for the specific case of flow charts.
2018-01-13T06:59:18Z aeth: soupa? soup?
2018-01-13T06:59:43Z loke: I jits thought of a good reason why cyrillic would be great for programming. There is as far as I know no confusables. In Latin, l and I look very similar.
2018-01-13T06:59:53Z loke: I can't think of any such issues in Russian
2018-01-13T07:00:05Z aeth: loke: l and I look very different if you use a monospace font designed by and for programmers
2018-01-13T07:00:30Z loke: You can't always control the font somehting is displayed in
2018-01-13T07:00:32Z jmercouris: aeth: yeah, that is: telephone, soup, tv, kebab (kind of), city, a lot
2018-01-13T07:00:34Z aeth: I will look like H turned on its side and l will look strange, but distinct from I and 1. In my case, it looks like a lambda but without the left / at the bottom
2018-01-13T07:00:50Z beach: Can we *please* try to get back on topic?
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2018-01-13T07:01:14Z loke: И and л are very different.
2018-01-13T07:01:30Z reinuseslisp: Graphviz is what is used to represent inheritance in GTK+ (for example)?
2018-01-13T07:01:38Z aeth: This? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphviz
2018-01-13T07:01:52Z jmercouris: Seems to be a very big project
2018-01-13T07:01:57Z loke: beach: Are you referring to the layout algorithm is particualr?
2018-01-13T07:02:08Z loke: Or all the fancy graphic stuff
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2018-01-13T07:02:34Z loke: also, is the algorithm documented anywhere?
2018-01-13T07:02:43Z aeth: Drawing trees and graphs in OpenGL would be fun.
2018-01-13T07:03:08Z beach: loke: The layout algorithms.
2018-01-13T07:03:26Z beach: http://204.178.9.49/Documentation/EGKNW03.pdf
2018-01-13T07:03:32Z aeth: It looks like it's Eclipse PUblic License. https://gitlab.com/graphviz/graphviz/blob/master/LICENSE
2018-01-13T07:03:43Z beach: loke: It is quite well documented.
2018-01-13T07:04:08Z loke: Looks like a fun project
2018-01-13T07:04:19Z beach: It would be immensely useful.
2018-01-13T07:04:35Z loke: I'll read this PDF when I come back
2018-01-13T07:04:42Z loke: I need to go grocery shopping now
2018-01-13T07:04:48Z beach: Good luck!
2018-01-13T07:06:26Z beach: For example, in SICL and Clasp, there are many representations that are best understood in the form of a graphic representation (ASTs, HIR, MIR, generic-dispatch automata, etc).  Currently, we generate a `dot' file, then turn that into PDF, then start a viewer, with varying degrees of success.
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2018-01-13T07:07:16Z beach: It would be great to just open a window with the graphic representation directly from the Common Lisp REPL.
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2018-01-13T07:07:49Z reinuseslisp: maybe a shell call?
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2018-01-13T07:08:45Z beach: reinuseslisp: My long-term plan is to have as much software as possible in Common Lisp, so having a Common Lisp implementation of the GraphViz algorithms would be a step in the right direction.
2018-01-13T07:10:12Z beach: reinuseslisp: Also, if we do this in Common Lisp, then I could draw it in McCLIM so that the graphic elements would be presentations that are clickable.
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2018-01-13T07:36:49Z beach: In fact, the graph-layout project was already suggested here: http://metamodular.com/Common-Lisp/suggested-projects.html
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2018-01-13T07:37:00Z beach: It is the last line in the "Libraries" section.
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2018-01-13T09:56:45Z pjb: loke: depends on the font, but in cyrilic, А and Д are often very close.
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2018-01-13T13:09:33Z asarch: 26 years ago, HAL computer became operational
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2018-01-13T14:12:24Z pjb: asarch: however, the HAL/1 programming language is much older.
2018-01-13T14:12:57Z pjb: Sorry, I mean HAL/S: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL/S
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2018-01-13T14:13:49Z pjb: Exercice for a lazy week end: write a CL reader macro to read expressions from such ascii-art representations.
2018-01-13T14:14:44Z pjb: If you've finished by this evening, follow up tomorrow (assuming it'll be a raining Sunday) with a reader macro to interpret ascii-art graph diagrams into state machine functions.
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2018-01-13T14:16:41Z pjb: Bonus points for combining it with https://github.com/dhobsd/asciitosvg to generate nice documentations.
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2018-01-13T14:23:49Z mo`: Hi #stumpwm is not active so I will ask here
2018-01-13T14:23:51Z mo`: is there a way to prevent emacs from blocking stumpwm when I call emacsclient for the mode-line, is there a way to do a timeout for the stumpwm:run-shell-command function ?
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2018-01-13T14:24:31Z mo`: I have (:eval (string-trim '(#\Newline #\") (stumpwm:run-shell-command "emacsclient -e \"(emms-track-description (emms-playlist-current-selected-track))\"" t))) for my mode-line
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2018-01-13T14:35:49Z asarch: pjb, I mean https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_9000
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2018-01-13T14:40:17Z tazjin: is there a built-in macro for using `(in-package)` in a limited scope? Something like `(with-package ...)`? Failing to google for it.
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2018-01-13T14:41:49Z mfiano: (let ((*package* ..)) ..) ?
2018-01-13T14:42:33Z tazjin: is that all in-package does? I guess that makes sense, thanks!
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2018-01-13T14:44:10Z Shinmera: It won't change the package of the symbols read in the expression however.
2018-01-13T14:44:20Z Shinmera: Because the reader needs to read a full expression, long before things are evaluated.
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2018-01-13T14:45:34Z Shinmera: So a "with-package" cannot possibly work, unless the package change should only influence package and read operations at run time.
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2018-01-13T15:17:31Z Bike: you could have a reader macro that does something similar. a couple implementations allow package::(form...) syntax which i think basically just binds *package*
2018-01-13T15:17:38Z Bike: but it's nonstandard
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2018-01-13T15:17:54Z puchacz: hi, is it a good idea, guys? (setf (symbol-function 'alphanumericp) (symbol-function 'lispworks:unicode-alphanumericp))
2018-01-13T15:18:15Z puchacz: it works, for example now I can query (alphanumericp (code-char 322)) and it returns T
2018-01-13T15:18:34Z puchacz: without the "fix" it would incorrectly return false
2018-01-13T15:19:04Z phoe: clhs alphanumericp
2018-01-13T15:19:05Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_alphan.htm
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2018-01-13T15:19:23Z Bike: oh, it's standard? you can't modify it then
2018-01-13T15:19:41Z Bike: kind of unfortunate that lispworks doesn't just use unicode alphanumericp as regular alphanumericp
2018-01-13T15:19:42Z phoe: "alphabetic n., adj. 1. adj. (of a character) being one of the standard characters A through Z or a through z, or being any implementation-defined character that has case, or being some other graphic character defined by the implementation to be alphabetic[1]. "
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2018-01-13T15:19:47Z phoe: clhs glossary/alphabetic
2018-01-13T15:19:47Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_a.htm#alphabetic
2018-01-13T15:19:50Z puchacz: well, 322 is a letter, "this is what sbcl says" (TM)
2018-01-13T15:20:24Z Bike: "LATIN SMALL LETTER L WITH STROKE" sounds pretty alphabetic, it's true.
2018-01-13T15:20:31Z puchacz: so sbcl falls into "or being some other graphic character"
2018-01-13T15:20:32Z phoe: this actually sounds like an inconsistency in LispWorks.
2018-01-13T15:20:47Z Bike: it sounds like lispworks restricts alphanumericp to be only ascii or something
2018-01-13T15:20:52Z phoe: yep.
2018-01-13T15:20:58Z Bike: maybe for some weird backwards compatibility reason
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2018-01-13T15:21:11Z phoe: (setf (symbol-function 'alphanumericp) ...) is undefined behaviour though.
2018-01-13T15:21:15Z Bike: oh, i see unicode-alphanumericp has an extra keyword argument
2018-01-13T15:21:26Z Shinmera: Never rely on CL's character set tests if you're working against any kind of specification.
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2018-01-13T15:21:32Z Shinmera: It's almost never what you want.
2018-01-13T15:21:41Z phoe: I'd rather go for #+lispworks unicode-alphanumericp #-lispworks alphanumericp if anything
2018-01-13T15:22:11Z puchacz: yeah. but cl-ppcre fails to recognise some letters because of this (it uses alphanumeric-p), and hell knows what else does not work with unicode
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2018-01-13T15:22:27Z puchacz: so instead of rewriting the whole quicklisp, I wanted to try this hack
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2018-01-13T15:23:02Z puchacz: (setf (symbol-function 'alphanumericp) ...) may be undefined but it works under current LW
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2018-01-13T15:23:55Z puchacz: however it asks me to continue (it uses restart)
2018-01-13T15:24:18Z puchacz: how can I always use restart and put it into .lispworks file pls?
2018-01-13T15:24:21Z Bike: does ppcre recognize it? i can imagine that function being inlined or suchlike
2018-01-13T15:24:30Z Bike: you can use a restart automatically with handler-bind
2018-01-13T15:24:41Z Bike: also, you should consider asking lispworks support about this
2018-01-13T15:25:01Z puchacz: if I put it into .lispworks and remove my .cache/common-lisp, it should recompile cl-ppcre with new function
2018-01-13T15:25:04Z phoe: puchacz: either ask lispworks for a workaround or file a bug on CL-PPCRE asking for special-casing LispWorks.
2018-01-13T15:25:34Z Bike: i kind of thought ppcre already special cased lispworks by using some regex engine lispworks provides
2018-01-13T15:26:03Z puchacz: I already asked them and they told me they have very close equivalents for the functions I need: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw70/LW/html/lw-198.htm
2018-01-13T15:26:37Z puchacz: so if I re-assign these functions and recompile, do some testing, it should work
2018-01-13T15:26:42Z puchacz: "like sbcl" ;)
2018-01-13T15:27:02Z Bike: okay. just be aware that this reassignment is undefined behavior and lispworks could change it without warning (though they're probably not that mean)
2018-01-13T15:27:27Z puchacz: of course. if they do, I will kindly ask them to restore or merge these functions :-)
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2018-01-13T15:28:04Z puchacz: thanks :)
2018-01-13T15:28:39Z phoe: puchacz: you can link their answers to a ticket on CL-PPCRE.
2018-01-13T15:28:56Z phoe: and possibly write a LispWorks-specific test case in CL-PPCRE's unit test suite to make sure it works and keeps on working later.
2018-01-13T15:30:31Z puchacz: ok - I will have a look. test case is simple, anything like this (scan "\\w" (format nil "~a" (code-char 322)))
2018-01-13T15:30:53Z puchacz: either gives match (correct) or gives no match (incorrect)
2018-01-13T15:31:02Z puchacz: by the way, I thought I could coerce character to string
2018-01-13T15:31:04Z |3b|: does (char-upcase (code-char 322)) return a different character?
2018-01-13T15:31:21Z Bike: the ppcre docs already include a note that \w has different behavior by implementation on superascii characters, so they might not care
2018-01-13T15:31:29Z phoe: ...this is interesting
2018-01-13T15:31:34Z puchacz: |3b|no. another problem
2018-01-13T15:31:39Z phoe: "or being any implementation-defined character that has case..." - so says the spec.
2018-01-13T15:31:47Z |3b|: nah, no problem in that case
2018-01-13T15:31:50Z phoe: So if unicode characters have case, they *should* be alphabetic.
2018-01-13T15:31:52Z Bike: no lowercase numbers allowed
2018-01-13T15:32:05Z Bike: phoe: if char-upcase doesn't work, as reported, it's still consistent
2018-01-13T15:32:10Z Bike: just with a kind of daft idea of "case"
2018-01-13T15:32:15Z phoe: oh, it doesn't work.
2018-01-13T15:32:27Z |3b|: they defined their implementation characters to not have CL case, so consistent with not being alphabetic
2018-01-13T15:32:28Z phoe: then LispWorks is weird with its unicode support.
2018-01-13T15:32:52Z puchacz: well, (char-upcase (code-char 322))  returns different character on SBCL
2018-01-13T15:33:03Z puchacz: #\LATIN_CAPITAL_LETTER_L_WITH_STROKE
2018-01-13T15:33:06Z Bike: because on sbcl the functions are all unicode consistent
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2018-01-13T15:33:24Z Bike: on lispworks they're only good for whatever more basic repertoire
2018-01-13T15:33:46Z puchacz: I will try to overwrite functions and see how it works
2018-01-13T15:34:35Z puchacz: for what I understand, CL should be able to support almost all unicode, except for cases where a small letter has more than one capital equivalents, or a capital letter more than one small equivalents
2018-01-13T15:34:35Z |3b|: yeah, both seem like reasonable choices to me... sbcl gives you something that probably works well enough to trick you into filling over some edge case, while lw makes you do the extra work to start with (assuming the other API would actually handle the edge cases better)
2018-01-13T15:35:04Z puchacz: |3b| - why trick me?
2018-01-13T15:35:28Z Bike: there's stuff like unicode characters that don't round trip through case conversions, i think
2018-01-13T15:35:52Z |3b|: puchacz: ok, maybe just trick me (and other people who don't use those characters with odd up/downcase rules) :)
2018-01-13T15:35:53Z puchacz: I thought SBCL philosophy is to treat unicode incompatibilities as bugs, except for these roundtrips myself and Bike mentioned
2018-01-13T15:35:56Z Bike: "There are different case mappings for different locales" okay yeah
2018-01-13T15:36:38Z puchacz: Bike: what is the quote from? I am interested in "proper" unicode support
2018-01-13T15:36:55Z Bike: "case mapping can change the number of code points and/or code units of a string," "is context-sensitive (a character in the input string may map differently depending on surrounding characters)" jesus
2018-01-13T15:37:02Z Bike: some library. let me find the actual unicode guidance
2018-01-13T15:37:35Z puchacz: about changing of code points, it is true even for German
2018-01-13T15:37:53Z puchacz: and hard to implement
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2018-01-13T15:39:19Z Bike: http://unicode.org/faq/casemap_charprop.html
2018-01-13T15:39:28Z puchacz: heh. Lispworks has no unicode char-upcase :(
2018-01-13T15:41:21Z puchacz: I guess I can write my own upcase / downcase :(
2018-01-13T15:41:26Z puchacz: exporting data from SBCL
2018-01-13T15:41:31Z puchacz: O-M-G
2018-01-13T15:41:45Z puchacz: can I iterate through all characters...?
2018-01-13T15:42:03Z Shinmera: Sure, will just take a while
2018-01-13T15:42:20Z puchacz: Shinmera: only once on SBCL, to generate a function for LW
2018-01-13T15:42:28Z puchacz: how do I do it pls?
2018-01-13T15:43:03Z |3b|: cl-unicode seems to have some functions for case
2018-01-13T15:43:23Z Bike: iterate up to char-code-limit, maybe?
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2018-01-13T15:44:07Z Bike: and then define your upcase as (aref very-long-vector (char-code char)), i guess
2018-01-13T15:44:20Z puchacz: cl-unicode:uppercase-mapping is what I wanted
2018-01-13T15:44:36Z puchacz: just need to rename standard CL function
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2018-01-13T15:44:41Z porky11: when I use hunchentoot, can I get the uri as variable instead of automatically dispatching?
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2018-01-13T15:46:01Z Shinmera: porky11: You can add a function to hunchentoot:*dispatch-table*. It should get the request object as an argument, from which you can get the URI.
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2018-01-13T15:48:23Z puchacz: FYI: this is working hands-off: (let ((lispworks:*handle-warn-on-redefinition* :quiet)) (setf (symbol-function 'alphanumericp) (symbol-function 'lispworks:unicode-alphanumericp)))
2018-01-13T15:48:51Z Bike: and there's no more particular warning for redefining a cl function? huh.
2018-01-13T15:50:44Z Shinmera: Overriding existing bindings in the CL package is ub though, so
2018-01-13T15:51:06Z puchacz: Shinmera: any dangers you see?
2018-01-13T15:51:19Z Shinmera: Well with ub anything goes.
2018-01-13T15:51:27Z puchacz: what is ub
2018-01-13T15:51:31Z Shinmera: undefined behaviour
2018-01-13T15:51:47Z Bike: basically just what i said, lispworks can change the behavior with no warning.
2018-01-13T15:51:49Z puchacz: I just hope unicode-char-equal does not fall back to char-equal internally :)
2018-01-13T15:51:53Z Shinmera: Could mean it steals your credit card information
2018-01-13T15:52:10Z puchacz: but actually what it does internally does not matter, as it is already compiled
2018-01-13T15:52:25Z puchacz: am I right?
2018-01-13T15:52:58Z Shinmera: Some internal machinery could depend on the previous behaviour of the function and then do very bad and hard to debug things if you change it
2018-01-13T15:53:01Z Bike: what was does internally
2018-01-13T15:53:19Z Shinmera: So no, you are wrong.
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2018-01-13T15:53:45Z puchacz: grep/find/replace textually in quicklisp....?
2018-01-13T15:54:38Z Shinmera: Submit PRs to the affected systems to special-case LW behaviour.
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2018-01-13T15:55:30Z puchacz: Shinmera: yes, but I still need to do it myself first (i.e. #+lispworks replacements)
2018-01-13T15:55:53Z Shinmera: Sure.
2018-01-13T15:56:50Z pjb: tazjin: Please read: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/PS/Ambitious.html
2018-01-13T15:57:47Z puchacz: slime who-calls shows functions usage - unless somebody passes it as 'alphanumericp instead of #'alphanumericp, so again it is not reliable way to find
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2018-01-13T15:59:11Z pjb: puchacz: there are also the case where one lower case letter is upcased to two uppercase letters.
2018-01-13T15:59:20Z pjb: puchacz: and also notice that this capitalization may change with time!
2018-01-13T15:59:30Z pjb: (and of course may depend on the language).
2018-01-13T15:59:31Z pjb: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_ẞ
2018-01-13T15:59:33Z pjb: Have fun.
2018-01-13T15:59:41Z puchacz: pjb: yes, but I can't do anything about that. exactly - the German example I mentioned
2018-01-13T16:00:19Z puchacz: pjb: I want as good multilingual support as I can get, but if I can't, well, I skip this case
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2018-01-13T16:00:51Z pjb: puchacz: well then first skip CL functions.  Use packages such as babel etc.
2018-01-13T16:01:05Z pjb: And be prepared to implement your own.
2018-01-13T16:01:25Z puchacz: pjb: I can use them :) it is the rest of quicklisp and lisp itself that might not play well
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2018-01-13T16:01:49Z pjb: And people rarely think about this history problem…
2018-01-13T16:02:02Z pjb: Things change!
2018-01-13T16:02:37Z pjb: And we have to deal with objects that have been created or defined in the past, that still exist and need to be processed now (and in the future).
2018-01-13T16:03:22Z pjb: So either the program remains neutral (don't try to process the data fields), or it has to include a lot of complexity.
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2018-01-13T16:23:19Z puchacz: how can I coerce string designator to a string pls?
2018-01-13T16:23:29Z Bike: clhs string
2018-01-13T16:23:29Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_string.htm
2018-01-13T16:23:51Z puchacz: Bike, tks
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2018-01-13T17:13:51Z porky11: how do I parse url in hunchentoot?
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2018-01-13T17:16:33Z phoe: porky11: hm.
2018-01-13T17:16:41Z phoe: https://edicl.github.io/hunchentoot/#reference
2018-01-13T17:16:41Z porky11: ok i post them myself
2018-01-13T17:16:53Z porky11: *parse
2018-01-13T17:17:04Z porky11: that's what I already found
2018-01-13T17:17:07Z porky11: *use
2018-01-13T17:18:00Z phoe: Yep. You may want to use one of the frameworks on top of Hunchentoot that parse URLs for you.
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2018-01-13T18:47:15Z fiddlerwoaroof_: Or use quri/puri
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2018-01-13T18:55:12Z jmercouris: my vote is for puri, quri has a dependency on asdf
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2018-01-13T19:00:04Z phoe: jmercouris: you're going to load ASDF anyway in most cases
2018-01-13T19:00:13Z phoe: for example, when building your application
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2018-01-13T19:15:06Z fiddlerwoaroof_: I like puri just because it uses CLOS
2018-01-13T19:15:44Z fiddlerwoaroof_: But, I think it has some issues with edge-cases
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2018-01-13T19:19:54Z jmercouris: phoe: not if you have a compiled ecl app
2018-01-13T19:20:01Z jmercouris: phoe: it was causing problems for me
2018-01-13T19:21:17Z phoe: jmercouris: oh. I SEE.
2018-01-13T19:21:20Z phoe: gah, caps.
2018-01-13T19:21:26Z phoe: jmercouris: oh. I see.*
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2018-01-13T20:13:12Z flip214: re puri: http://www.cliki.net/Puri says http://puri.b9.com/, but this doesn't exist any more.
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2018-01-13T20:19:29Z shrdlu68: Good evening, fellow vertebrates.
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2018-01-13T20:23:36Z flip214: shrdlu68: are you sure everyone here has a spinal cord?
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2018-01-13T20:24:26Z fiddlerwoaroof_: flip214: yeah, I think it's this: http://git.kpe.io/?p=puri.git;a=summary
2018-01-13T20:24:29Z fiddlerwoaroof_: minion doesn't
2018-01-13T20:26:07Z shrdlu68: Pretty much. I have nothing against invertebrates, though.
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2018-01-13T20:31:33Z flip214: fiddlerwoaroof_: well, I can argue that the northbridge-southbridge connection connects the "thinking" parts with the "change the environment" parts, so there's not that much difference
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2018-01-13T20:33:35Z Bike: other chordates in the room look away in disgust
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2018-01-13T20:48:12Z yomanwazap: I had a dream last night
2018-01-13T20:48:59Z yomanwazap: It had a green alien with multiple eyes in it that was holding a sign calling "Lern Lisp" with his trunk.
2018-01-13T20:49:04Z yomanwazap: Is it a sign?
2018-01-13T20:49:24Z fiddlerwoaroof_: Yes
2018-01-13T20:49:57Z yomanwazap: I would be blessed by their holliness (eval) now?
2018-01-13T20:50:10Z yomanwazap: On the path of (car)?
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2018-01-13T20:52:56Z phoe: yomanwazap: (eval) is an error
2018-01-13T20:52:59Z phoe: so is (car)
2018-01-13T20:53:05Z phoe: wake up, this is a fake Lisp alien
2018-01-13T20:53:34Z yomanwazap: I knew I were misguided by the forces of eval i  mean evil
2018-01-13T20:53:51Z phoe: EVAL expects an argument, so does CAR
2018-01-13T20:55:16Z yomanwazap: I have commied a sacrilage!
2018-01-13T20:55:22Z yomanwazap: *commited
2018-01-13T20:55:46Z yomanwazap: I deserve a flogging with all my parenthesis
2018-01-13T20:56:17Z phoe flogs yomanwazap all the way to #lispcafe
2018-01-13T20:56:26Z phoe then flogs self there as well
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2018-01-13T21:15:40Z tetrachlorides: "I'd like to learn Russian but I have no time to memorize this funny alphabet." - Someone wrote a blog post complaining about that remark. :/
2018-01-13T21:16:35Z Bike: wrong channel?
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2018-01-13T21:18:52Z tetrachlorides: the original commenter was on #lisp, and he had a point too.
2018-01-13T21:18:55Z tazjin: Bike: there was some very brief talk about eastern european languages yesterday, maybe tetrachlorides is referring to that.
2018-01-13T21:19:11Z Bike: i see.
2018-01-13T21:19:23Z Bike: i think learning the alphabet is probably not the longest time investment of learning any language?
2018-01-13T21:19:31Z tazjin: unless you're talking about mandarin ...
2018-01-13T21:20:00Z Bike: well technically han characters don't constitute an "alphabet", therefore
2018-01-13T21:20:11Z tazjin: tetrachlorides: do you have a link to that post? I'm not sure if you're referring to my remark about learning Russian (which wasn't about the alphabet) but it sounds interesting anyways
2018-01-13T21:21:28Z tetrachlorides: i thought some of you guys were oversensitive, but people really do complain http://blog.roberthahn.ca/articles/2006/02/09/lisp-first-impressions/
2018-01-13T21:23:40Z phoe: the lack of a complete and featureful Lisp editor that isn't emacs or vi has been a topic of many debates on #lisp so far
2018-01-13T21:24:04Z yomanwazap: since when vi is a lisp editor? :P
2018-01-13T21:24:10Z phoe: yomanwazap: slimv, vlime.
2018-01-13T21:24:16Z tazjin: evil ;-)
2018-01-13T21:24:46Z tetrachlorides: vi has an "-l" option for lisp mode, parenthesis matching
2018-01-13T21:24:54Z phoe: plugin for atom is incomplete and buggy, plugins for other editors don't exist afaik. I remember that jasom has been working on a geany plugin AFAIR
2018-01-13T21:25:22Z tazjin: has paredit ever been fully ported to anything else?
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2018-01-13T21:27:48Z phoe: I think that Clojure has an IDEA plugin with paredit.
2018-01-13T21:27:51Z phoe: Surprisingly.
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2018-01-13T21:29:15Z Shinmera: tetrachlorides: I don't know if I want to take someone to heart that unironically calls themselves "a darn good web developer" on their website.
2018-01-13T21:30:24Z yomanwazap: If he develops those webpages in assembly he probably is
2018-01-13T21:30:28Z yomanwazap: or she
2018-01-13T21:30:31Z yomanwazap: or they
2018-01-13T21:30:35Z yomanwazap: or whatever
2018-01-13T21:30:52Z shka: i don't understand the point
2018-01-13T21:30:57Z tetrachlorides: good point. emacs is a pain at first but a cheat sheet would do
2018-01-13T21:31:05Z Shinmera: Portacle has a cheat sheet
2018-01-13T21:31:11Z Shinmera: included and always open
2018-01-13T21:31:47Z yomanwazap: to think havinf cheat sheets was shamed during all my school years
2018-01-13T21:32:04Z tetrachlorides: i actually couldn't figure out how to install add-on...
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2018-01-13T21:58:18Z tetrachlorides: hey @dmiles is here in #lisp! tell us how you ported lisp500 to prolog
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2018-01-13T21:59:44Z mo`: is there a way to prevent emacs from blocking stumpwm when I call emacsclient for the mode-line, is there a way to do a timeout for the stumpwm:run-shell-command function ?
2018-01-13T22:10:37Z tetrachlorides: i'm not sure, does this help? https://stumpwm.github.io/git/stumpwm-git_7.html search: *mode-line-timeout*
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2018-01-13T22:11:46Z dmiles: Hi tetrachlorides, yup I am #lisp and ##prolog all the time.
2018-01-13T22:12:09Z mo`: tetrachlorides: thank you. someone replied to me on #stumpwm (which is not very active)
2018-01-13T22:12:56Z mo`: tetrachlorides: as he said the mode-line code is synchronous so I have to spawn a new thread to solve this I think
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2018-01-13T22:14:34Z dmiles: Well I switched from Lisp500 do to problems with it's definitions of things liek incf/rotatef and it was not fully Common Lisp
2018-01-13T22:14:45Z tetrachlorides: dmiles: as far as i can tell lisp500 used integer tags on "iref" boxed objects, but init500.lisp extends that with bit twiddling! that seems like cheating
2018-01-13T22:14:59Z dmiles: so now i am using a hybrid of ECL, SBCL, ABCL
2018-01-13T22:15:41Z dmiles: Well I get to cheat quite a bit as well .. i use a  Object/Prop/Value store
2018-01-13T22:16:40Z tetrachlorides: i saw wam-cl had a full object model and everything and was impressed! but there was some other prolog/lisp something in there... *shrug*
2018-01-13T22:16:54Z dmiles: in the asserta database  (normal to prolog) but for allow modification of Conses and other objects i use the Prolog blackboard
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2018-01-13T22:18:13Z tetrachlorides: i keep daydreaming of replacing iref integer tags with a pointer to a slot-descriptor table of some sort lol
2018-01-13T22:18:29Z dmiles: yeah.. the object system stuff was actually the easiest to write
2018-01-13T22:19:14Z dmiles: say easier than the immediate value system
2018-01-13T22:19:39Z tetrachlorides: that way if you invent a new builtin type, the garbage collector instantly knows how to find internal references ;)
2018-01-13T22:20:31Z dmiles: well one modification i been making is that for every "place" i am making a base-porter with is a refernce to a prolog compound .. then also an offset that i can use getarg/3 , b_starg/3 or nb_setarg/3
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2018-01-13T22:20:56Z dmiles: base-porter/base-pointer
2018-01-13T22:21:47Z dmiles: how i do GC, yes does work with this notion of compound+offset
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2018-01-13T22:22:47Z dmiles: though the compound+offset sometimes adds an extra indirection when i use it for immediate values
2018-01-13T22:23:13Z dmiles: so i been putting off going to compound+offset fully
2018-01-13T22:23:36Z tetrachlorides: is there a good way to do builtin function/interpreted function?
2018-01-13T22:23:41Z borei: hi all
2018-01-13T22:24:05Z borei: i have 2 definitions
2018-01-13T22:24:18Z borei: (defgeneric add (la-object &rest la-objects)
2018-01-13T22:24:19Z borei: and
2018-01-13T22:24:32Z borei: (defmethod add ((matrix matrix-r) &rest matricies)
2018-01-13T22:24:49Z borei: but lisp is not happy about them
2018-01-13T22:24:55Z dmiles: right now i take the rought if one adds an interpreted function i compile it .. but i might keep the original source with it and let the user pretend its interpreted until they compile
2018-01-13T22:25:16Z dmiles: route*
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2018-01-13T22:25:41Z phoe: borei: what is the error message? Use pastebin if necessary.
2018-01-13T22:25:41Z borei: ADD (2)> takes 2 required arguments; was asked to find a method with specializers (MATRIX-R)
2018-01-13T22:25:52Z borei: it's only one line
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2018-01-13T22:26:03Z tetrachlorides: i hate how you can iref a symbol and crash the boot interpreter because the function pointer segfaults
2018-01-13T22:26:05Z phoe: borei: obviously your defgeneric accepts two arguments, not one.
2018-01-13T22:26:17Z dmiles: oh though in this case i treate macros as special functions
2018-01-13T22:26:22Z borei: even if it with &rest ?
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2018-01-13T22:27:09Z tetrachlorides: so, i thought instead of overlaying function pointer on a cons, turn the car of cons into a tag!
2018-01-13T22:27:28Z tetrachlorides: been too lazy to try it yet... :/
2018-01-13T22:27:46Z dmiles: (i mean i suppose the differnce between an interpred function and a compiled function for me is whether or not i have used macroexpand on the body of the function)
2018-01-13T22:27:52Z phoe: borei: works on my machine.
2018-01-13T22:27:53Z phoe: https://pastebin.com/fz5TqtvJ
2018-01-13T22:28:11Z phoe: Try (fmakunbound 'add) and reevaulating the DEFGENERIC.
2018-01-13T22:28:50Z dmiles: tetrachlorides: you are using lisp500 right?
2018-01-13T22:29:14Z dmiles: tetrachlorides: what would be so awesome is if it was made to be a true CL
2018-01-13T22:29:31Z borei: ohh, ic ic
2018-01-13T22:29:41Z tetrachlorides: i play with it sometimes but hard to make sense of the whole thing. lisp800 helps
2018-01-13T22:30:08Z dmiles: oh is 800 slightly fuller than lisp500 ?
2018-01-13T22:30:21Z borei: need to reload asdf system completely there will be a lot of such
2018-01-13T22:30:27Z dmiles: I had assumed it was just slightly more comment
2018-01-13T22:30:40Z tetrachlorides: it's documented to a degree but not fully...
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2018-01-13T22:31:20Z dmiles: i wonder if incf doent double evalute places
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2018-01-13T22:32:54Z dmiles: oops i meant  (incf (aref foo (incf i)) 3) will increment i twice
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2018-01-13T22:33:32Z dmiles didnt need to add that 3
2018-01-13T22:34:24Z borei: odd, reloaded everything - no luck
2018-01-13T22:35:04Z dmiles: it be a nice project to have a lisp500/800/5000 that used ideal setf expanders and real CLOS (like from PCL)
2018-01-13T22:35:12Z phoe: borei: specifically, if you already have methods on a GF, you can't change the GF's arity.
2018-01-13T22:35:41Z phoe: (defgeneric foo (bar baz)) (defmethod foo (bar baz) 3) ;; at this point (defgeneric foo (bar baz quux)) is an error.
2018-01-13T22:36:37Z borei: you mean that i have situation that defmethod was executed first ?
2018-01-13T22:37:19Z dmiles: though by the time i am done is sorta expect to have that but it'll be a hodgepodge of ECL,SBCL,ABCL,GCL,SICL etc
2018-01-13T22:37:57Z dmiles: ( all in one giant file called lisp5000.lisp  :P )
2018-01-13T22:38:30Z borei: seems like i found
2018-01-13T22:38:39Z tetrachlorides: i'm kind of a lisp newbie though interested, setf expanders?
2018-01-13T22:38:59Z aeth: dmiles: GCL?
2018-01-13T22:39:00Z borei: i have one more defmethod add with explicit 2 args
2018-01-13T22:39:45Z aeth: dmiles: The ones that appear to be alive (ish) are SBCL, CCL, ECL, ABCL, Clasp, CLISP, CMUCL, MKCL
2018-01-13T22:40:17Z dmiles: tetrachlorides: setf expanders is sort of a institionalized hack to ease the use of trampolines (host C functions) on places
2018-01-13T22:40:59Z dmiles: aeth: why i liked GCL is it isnt as alive and sometimes straighter forward
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2018-01-13T22:41:47Z dmiles: ( aeth: since i am many pilfering lisp code )
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2018-01-13T22:42:35Z aeth: Careful, not every license is compatible with the GPL
2018-01-13T22:43:26Z dmiles: ( GCL claims to be well moderated ECL but i dont think its better than ECL )
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2018-01-13T22:44:19Z Shinmera: GCL isn't even ANSI compliant so
2018-01-13T22:44:29Z Shinmera: It's one of the worst choices out there, really
2018-01-13T22:44:55Z dmiles: Shinmera: mainly GCL is good to find a defmacro that didnt use loop
2018-01-13T22:45:41Z dmiles: but yes a poor choice to do anything other than cherry pick a handfull of functiuons
2018-01-13T22:45:46Z aeth: dmiles: loop is just so convenient for "loop ... collect ..." or "loop ... append ..." when generating lists
2018-01-13T22:46:06Z aeth: You can go without using loop, but you're probably going to get something that's both slower and less readable
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2018-01-13T22:46:15Z aeth: And I say this as someone who usually avoids loop
2018-01-13T22:47:11Z dmiles: *nod* well my thing agaist loop is when sometimes it was totally done by someone who looks for every reason to use loop
2018-01-13T22:48:08Z aeth: I've seen some loops that are essentially 20+ lines with no parentheses in sight
2018-01-13T22:48:11Z aeth: scary things
2018-01-13T22:49:31Z dmiles: but also of course my avoidance is sometimes it makes it harder to decompile my code afterwards.. since prolog vars and not be written more than once i have to make lots of helpers
2018-01-13T22:49:34Z tetrachlorides: i was researching lisp500 history earlier, i can't find when it was first shared (on irc?) your name comes up as interested in it
2018-01-13T22:50:47Z dmiles: "avoidance is sometimes it makes it harder to decompile my code afterwards.."  /  "sinc eprolog variables once a value is stored cannot be changed"
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2018-01-13T22:52:21Z dmiles: tetrachlorides: yeah every once i a while i ask if there is a minimalist primordial CL someplace other than lisp500 :P
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2018-01-13T22:54:11Z tetrachlorides: CL is pretty complicated so hard to figure out what elements required :/
2018-01-13T22:54:13Z rme: By modern standards, CL is tiny, but it's still a big language.
2018-01-13T22:54:16Z dmiles: SICL is is close to that at least according to everyone, though as beach once explained its a bit over circular to be considered that
2018-01-13T22:54:43Z Shinmera: SICL needs a CL to run, so
2018-01-13T22:56:11Z dmiles: yeah i wish that there was some 185 or some 387 or so trampolines that get us all the way to the level of doing what SBCL does
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2018-01-13T22:56:39Z dmiles: (emphases on *wish)
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2018-01-13T22:57:57Z aeth: You could build CL from a subset of CL, ignoring loop and CLOS and format and other things that seem mostly added on
2018-01-13T22:58:18Z dmiles: that wouild allow  hostlang.[c|pl|js|java|hs|scala|etc] + libs.lsip
2018-01-13T22:58:22Z aeth: (Although ignoring loop in macros would make it harder to generate lists because, as I said, collect is pretty much it)
2018-01-13T22:58:54Z Shinmera: aeth: Yeah but beach discovered that doing so is immensely painful and stopped.
2018-01-13T22:59:13Z aeth: Shinmera: I think it probably depends on your programming style
2018-01-13T22:59:30Z tetrachlorides: should NIL be a NULL pointer, or a symbol, or a special cons cell with both halves pointing to self?
2018-01-13T22:59:34Z Shinmera: Bootstrapping is not going to make any code look pretty
2018-01-13T22:59:53Z Shinmera: Or make it in any way easy to maintain.
2018-01-13T23:00:03Z Shinmera: tetrachlorides: NIL is a symbol.
2018-01-13T23:00:39Z Shinmera: clhs glossary/nil
2018-01-13T23:00:39Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_n.htm#nil
2018-01-13T23:00:58Z aeth: Shinmera: It's easy to avoid FORMAT and CLOS just in normal Lisp
2018-01-13T23:01:10Z aeth: CLOS offers a lot of nice things, of course. And format is more concise than alternatives.
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2018-01-13T23:01:26Z aeth: You could probably come up with a macro that just does the subset of loop that's hard to do elsewhere (e.g. collect)
2018-01-13T23:01:34Z Shinmera: aeth: Get back to me when you've written a system as large and involved as CL
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2018-01-13T23:01:49Z phoe: CLHS somewhere has a list of all symbols exported from the CL package. Does anyone know where exactly to find it?
2018-01-13T23:01:53Z aeth: Shinmera: I'm writing a game engine, it's extremely large and involved.
2018-01-13T23:01:55Z dmiles: tetrachlorides: historically everyone jsut loves to comendeer NIL to mean lots of things.. NULL,0,:FALSE .. about 70% of their way in they decide it was a bad idea
2018-01-13T23:02:15Z Shinmera: aeth: I'm aware, so am I. It still doesn't compare to a CL implementation.
2018-01-13T23:02:16Z dmiles: tetrachlorides: but felt soo good their first 69%
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2018-01-13T23:02:26Z rme: But there are tons of CL implementations to build on.  What's the benefit of implementing a limited subset of CL for bootstrapping given that you could use an existing CL for bootstrapping?
2018-01-13T23:02:44Z aeth: Shinmera: I don't use format, I use CLOS in ways that make things simpler but could be avoided if I had to, and I only use loop when alternatives are much uglier (primarily loop collect)
2018-01-13T23:02:50Z Shinmera: Colleen: tell phoe look up clhs 1.9
2018-01-13T23:02:50Z Colleen: phoe: Clhs: section 1.9 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/01_i.htm
2018-01-13T23:02:59Z aeth: Well, I think I might use format in a few places that don't matter
2018-01-13T23:03:16Z pjb: When you write C compiler, you don't bootstrap them with B anymore!
2018-01-13T23:03:18Z Shinmera: aeth: Good for you
2018-01-13T23:03:18Z phoe: (incf Shinmera)
2018-01-13T23:03:34Z pjb: You just use full C to write C compilers.   Even perhaps you implement them in C++ or in Common Lisp!
2018-01-13T23:03:41Z aeth: Shinmera: I don't think a game engine is easier than a language implementation because a game engine has to implement half of a language, several times over, in order to be efficient.
2018-01-13T23:03:54Z aeth: Although, yes, I'm only about 5% in
2018-01-13T23:03:55Z Shinmera: Whatever you say
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2018-01-13T23:04:41Z Xach: how embarrassing!
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2018-01-13T23:05:28Z Xach has said multiple times that there are 976 symbols, though he should have remembered it as 978 because it is massachusetts's second area code
2018-01-13T23:05:52Z aeth: One day, kids will learn all 978 symbols in school.
2018-01-13T23:06:06Z Shinmera: It's less than the standard 2'000 Kanji for Japanese.
2018-01-13T23:06:17Z dmiles: oops eralier i said 378 i meant  978
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2018-01-13T23:06:43Z aeth: pjb: I don't think C is a good example because of how different C is from CL.
2018-01-13T23:06:43Z Xach: I think it would be interesting to be a lisp company with 978-796-2657 as the number
2018-01-13T23:06:59Z Xach: 978-SYM-BOLS
2018-01-13T23:07:06Z rme: heh
2018-01-13T23:07:11Z dmiles: hehe
2018-01-13T23:07:12Z tetrachlorides: maybe NULL pointers could redirect to symbol NIL... :/
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2018-01-13T23:07:51Z aeth: Xach: You might be able to get that with Google Voice
2018-01-13T23:08:01Z aeth: (if Google Voice still lets you pick a number)
2018-01-13T23:08:33Z Shinmera: tetrachlorides: Pointers are a separate concept.
2018-01-13T23:08:42Z Shinmera: tetrachlorides: They should have their own type.
2018-01-13T23:08:46Z Xach: Hmm, it's a standard exchange in Ayer, MA
2018-01-13T23:08:55Z flip214: +978 is not allocated yet
2018-01-13T23:09:14Z flip214: +978 – unassigned – originally assigned to Dubai, now covered under 971
2018-01-13T23:09:37Z flip214: perhaps you could get that from UAE
2018-01-13T23:09:42Z Xach: flip214: I am speaking only of the united states in this case
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2018-01-13T23:09:54Z aeth: flip214: Xach is talking about 1-978-796-2657
2018-01-13T23:10:35Z flip214: I understood as much, but why not think globally?
2018-01-13T23:10:55Z aeth: So what you're saying is claim Antarctica for Lisp and take the country code 978?
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2018-01-13T23:11:21Z aeth: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terra_nullius#Antarctica
2018-01-13T23:11:55Z aeth: Only problem is that by treaty the US or the Soviet Union have the right to claim parts of Antarctica, so if you build a town there the US or Russia might try to claim it.
2018-01-13T23:12:03Z flip214: well, there are quite a few small islands, one of them might be cheaper
2018-01-13T23:12:11Z aeth: Every single island is claimed by a country
2018-01-13T23:12:16Z dmiles: rme: the reason i am not using an existing CL impl to bootstrap is that i dont compile to x86
2018-01-13T23:12:19Z aeth: And if you build an island, it will be claimed by the nearest country
2018-01-13T23:12:25Z flip214: well, wait a bit, perhaps Catalan needs a new phone code
2018-01-13T23:12:42Z flip214: aeth: Mars has no phone number registry yet!
2018-01-13T23:13:14Z aeth: If #lisp officially backs Catalonian independence, can Common Lisp be the official programming language of Catalonia? And does that mean we'd need to do the whole Lisp localization thing where Catalan words are used instead of English words in symbols?
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2018-01-13T23:13:38Z flip214: aeth: top-level-domains can be bought nowadays, so I guess that a (now unused) phone prefix should be available too
2018-01-13T23:13:45Z dmiles: rme: i sorta wish that there was a compiler that translated lisp to say javascript and had no missing parts
2018-01-13T23:14:24Z aeth: dmiles: https://jscl-project.github.io/
2018-01-13T23:14:28Z aeth: dmiles: missing parts, though? Many.
2018-01-13T23:14:32Z dmiles: rme: (i mentioning that since even with existing lisp systems that still cannot be done)
2018-01-13T23:15:08Z dmiles: aeth: *nod* its the missing parts thang
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2018-01-13T23:17:04Z dmiles: i am not sure if in the end i will have actualyl acomplished things without totally cheating as much as possible
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2018-01-13T23:18:42Z rme: dmiles: Your new implementation (written using CL running in the bootstrapping implementation) can generate whatever code it wants.  It doesn't matter if the bootstrapping CL generates x86 or 68000 code.
2018-01-13T23:19:51Z dmiles: though technically the source of the wam_cl could be able to be translated from prolog to lisp.. meaning i could then gernate my system on SBCL
2018-01-13T23:20:20Z dmiles: rme: so you might be right
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2018-01-13T23:24:49Z dmiles: oh, the benefit of implementing a limited subset of CL for bootstrapping is that you your initial subset (say hosted as python)  would allow the rest of CL to be a translation of that python code
2018-01-13T23:25:14Z aeth: dmiles: counterargument time
2018-01-13T23:25:30Z dmiles: (so if you can compile your python code you can compile trhe rest)
2018-01-13T23:25:58Z aeth: dmiles: the disadvantage of implementing a small subset for portability in targeting very different platforms is that the way to write efficient code varies wildly depending on the platforms, especially if the platforms are so different (like source-to-source compilation between languages)
2018-01-13T23:26:34Z aeth: Even efficient CL is written completely differently than efficient Emacs Lisp
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2018-01-13T23:27:21Z aeth: Almost all of my CL code is "portable", but it's not really portable if it's unusably slow in many environments where it could theoretically run
2018-01-13T23:27:32Z aeth: And I'm not writing things like CLOS
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2018-01-13T23:27:55Z dmiles: aeth: yeah anohte rexample of what you are saying.. is actualy i run collector loops must slower than i run compleetly recursive function spiting out (values .. ) as a collector
2018-01-13T23:28:18Z jmercouris: how do you guys feel about (defparameter) setting performing calculations in a top-level form?
2018-01-13T23:28:28Z jmercouris: like (defparamaeter fish (calculate-fish-default-value))
2018-01-13T23:28:48Z jmercouris: is there a valid reason to not do it?
2018-01-13T23:28:52Z aeth: Threads.
2018-01-13T23:29:06Z jmercouris: aeth: Can you elaborate what you mean?
2018-01-13T23:29:09Z aeth: defparameter and defvar might not behave as you think they should when threads are involved
2018-01-13T23:29:32Z jmercouris: What if none of my defparameters depend on any others?
2018-01-13T23:29:40Z jmercouris: they only depend on one function that has a constant return value
2018-01-13T23:30:10Z aeth: Have you tried using alexandria:define-constant?
2018-01-13T23:30:21Z jmercouris: aeth: I have not, why might I use that instead?
2018-01-13T23:30:39Z aeth: If it's really a constant
2018-01-13T23:31:01Z rme: why write a few lines of code when you can import a library?  it's the modern programming way!
2018-01-13T23:31:08Z jmercouris: aeth: It is a constant, but I'd like the user to be able to change it, so it's kind of not a constant...
2018-01-13T23:31:22Z jmercouris: basically the defparameters represent configuration file paths
2018-01-13T23:31:31Z jmercouris: and 99.99% of the time, the user will not change them after startup
2018-01-13T23:31:32Z yomanwazap: what would be an effect of taking LSD and browsing LISP code? Dancing parens?
2018-01-13T23:31:36Z aeth: rme: some libraries don't count because you probably are indirectly using them even if you have just one dependency
2018-01-13T23:31:37Z jmercouris: but if for some strange reason, a user wishes to, they might
2018-01-13T23:31:54Z jmercouris: I believe one of my dependencies is already pulling in alexendria
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2018-01-13T23:32:03Z jmercouris: I only have like 3 dependences or so
2018-01-13T23:32:09Z phoe: yomanwazap: #lispcafe please
2018-01-13T23:32:26Z jmercouris: I take that back, I have 8 dependencies
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2018-01-13T23:32:59Z jmercouris: aeth: Anyways, do you think I will still encounter issues with threads if it is as I described?
2018-01-13T23:33:01Z aeth: jmercouris: where is this value used?
2018-01-13T23:33:20Z jmercouris: aeth: The value is used anywhere a function requires access to a configuration file
2018-01-13T23:33:30Z aeth: jmercouris: and, yes, I wouldn't rely on a user setting *foo* to actually be realized in another thread
2018-01-13T23:33:32Z jmercouris: like I said 99% of times at startup it will be set, and that will be it
2018-01-13T23:34:01Z aeth: what's the type of this value?
2018-01-13T23:34:06Z jmercouris: aeth: it is a path
2018-01-13T23:34:12Z jmercouris: let me just link you to github so you can see
2018-01-13T23:34:31Z jmercouris: https://github.com/nEXT-Browser/nEXT/pull/63
2018-01-13T23:34:36Z jmercouris: please refer to my comment where I point to lispkit
2018-01-13T23:34:40Z jmercouris: and how things are cal'd
2018-01-13T23:34:51Z jmercouris: here's the function: https://github.com/AeroNotix/lispkit/blob/master/user.lisp#L4
2018-01-13T23:35:01Z jmercouris: and here's the top level form defparameter: https://github.com/AeroNotix/lispkit/blob/master/settings.lisp#L3
2018-01-13T23:36:32Z aeth: Personally, I'd put them in a struct or object and would not directly expose them, so you can check that the proposed new value is valid
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2018-01-13T23:37:15Z aeth: That has the added advantage that if defparameter doesn't work, you can change where they're stored
2018-01-13T23:37:38Z jmercouris: hmm, sure, but I'd like to give my users the opportunity to mess things up, it is an emacsy like program after all
2018-01-13T23:37:46Z jmercouris: I would be limiting their freedom in a way
2018-01-13T23:38:01Z jmercouris: I can always change it in the future
2018-01-13T23:38:10Z aeth: Yeah, but later on you could e.g. create a closure
2018-01-13T23:38:23Z jmercouris: I mean we are not at even version 1.0 yet, so people should not expect their configs to work forever
2018-01-13T23:38:24Z aeth: Nothing's stopping you from putting a let over defuns
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2018-01-13T23:39:13Z jmercouris: aeth: true true... instead of solutions, just more questions
2018-01-13T23:39:15Z rme: just do it. you are making a huge fuss over a totally trivial problem.
2018-01-13T23:39:24Z aeth: jmercouris: If you just expose an accessor (calling it returns the value, setf'ing it changes the value) then you have a lot more flexibility with the API and can change it to be pretty much anything
2018-01-13T23:39:26Z jmercouris: rme: The way I proposed?
2018-01-13T23:39:28Z aeth: I love accessors
2018-01-13T23:39:43Z rme: yeah, just stick it in there and carry on.
2018-01-13T23:39:57Z aeth: jmercouris: but I would personally test modifying it at runtime in another thread, if your browser runs in a background thread from SLIME like a lot of graphical CL apps do
2018-01-13T23:39:57Z jmercouris: ok, your approval is good enough for me :D
2018-01-13T23:40:07Z jmercouris: I'm only single threaded at the moment
2018-01-13T23:40:09Z aeth: ah
2018-01-13T23:40:20Z jmercouris: when that time comes, that will be a big change, and the UI will live in its own thread
2018-01-13T23:40:22Z jmercouris: but we are not yet there
2018-01-13T23:40:30Z aeth: well, don't overcomplicate it, then
2018-01-13T23:40:31Z jmercouris: there's a lot of work to be done first in the internal API
2018-01-13T23:40:45Z aeth: Just make it clear that you might have to change that part if you go multithreaded
2018-01-13T23:40:48Z aeth: imo
2018-01-13T23:40:54Z jmercouris: I'll make a note, yes
2018-01-13T23:41:03Z jmercouris: thank you for explaining the pitfalls
2018-01-13T23:41:12Z aeth: I should have asked first, I just assumed your web browser would be multithreaded
2018-01-13T23:41:12Z jmercouris: I'm sure you've saved future me a ton of time :D
2018-01-13T23:41:39Z jmercouris: it is asynchronous, but not yet multithreaded
2018-01-13T23:41:51Z jmercouris: the transition will hopefully be not too painful
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