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2018-01-12T00:03:21Z mfiano: jasom: You can connect to a weechat relay with weechat.el if you want to use/configure it with _a_ lisp.
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2018-01-12T00:20:10Z zhoujingrui: hi
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2018-01-12T00:32:37Z Xach uses css to hide a lot of noise in ql failure logs
2018-01-12T00:39:28Z Xach: http://report.quicklisp.org/2018-01-04/failure-report/cepl.html#cepl.perf is old and http://report.quicklisp.org/2018-01-11/failure-report/cepl.html#cepl.perf is new
2018-01-12T00:39:40Z Xach should tell baggers
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2018-01-12T00:42:30Z fiddlerwoaroof_: Xach: are you involved with vivace graph at all?
2018-01-12T00:46:57Z Xach: fiddlerwoaroof_: i added some features
2018-01-12T00:47:03Z Xach: fiddlerwoaroof_: but it was a few years ago
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2018-01-12T02:15:55Z pmc_: Does the book version of Practical Common Lisp have an index?
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2018-01-12T02:19:11Z jmercouris: pmc_: The website does, I assume the book would have a table of contents
2018-01-12T02:19:23Z jmercouris: pmc_: What do you mean by index anyway? a glossary?
2018-01-12T02:19:34Z bms_: Most books with chapters tend to have some sort of index.
2018-01-12T02:19:35Z pmc_: Like a listing of words and page numbers.
2018-01-12T02:20:08Z bms_: It's like a glossary, but instead of definitions, it gives you page numbers.
2018-01-12T02:21:31Z jmercouris: Ah right, yes, I've seen that in textbooks
2018-01-12T02:22:38Z bms_: Oh, jmercouris, after a day or two of work, I got nEXT running on Arch Linux. Most of that time was consumed by the Webkit2GTK build, which I later discovered was unnecessary. Anyway, I like it very much so far.
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2018-01-12T02:23:00Z jmercouris: bms_: Nice! I'm happy to hear that you got it running :)
2018-01-12T02:23:10Z jmercouris: and that you are enjoying it so far
2018-01-12T02:23:19Z jmercouris: there was a user attempting to make a pkgbuild for it, and was struggling
2018-01-12T02:24:19Z bms_: I really am. It works perfectly with my current setup. I've never written a pkgbuild from scratch, only done some editing.
2018-01-12T02:24:40Z jmercouris: Well, just wait until the next release, there's a lot of quite cool things in the works!
2018-01-12T02:24:54Z bms_: Alright, great.
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2018-01-12T03:10:26Z jmercouris: Is there a implementation agnostic way to get command line arguments, or OS?
2018-01-12T03:10:36Z jmercouris: I would like to adapt my build script to build differently on MacOS than on Linux
2018-01-12T03:10:38Z jasom: jmercouris: uiop
2018-01-12T03:10:56Z jmercouris: jasom: is there any documentation for UIOP that I can look at?
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2018-01-12T03:11:06Z jmercouris: last time I had to look through the source, is there an API at the least?
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2018-01-12T03:11:13Z jasom: jmercouris: it's all in the docstrings for the functions, so it's doable if you have it in the repl
2018-01-12T03:11:27Z jasom: or you could use one of a dozen tools to generate documentation from that
2018-01-12T03:11:39Z jmercouris: jasom: Ah, didn't know that, should have checked that, that's good
2018-01-12T03:11:50Z jmercouris: Nah, I'd rather not generate documentation
2018-01-12T03:11:57Z jmercouris: speaking of documentation generators, what do you reccomend?
2018-01-12T03:12:13Z jmercouris: s/reccomend/reccommend? not sure how to spell that word
2018-01-12T03:12:14Z jasom: (uiop:command-line-arguments)
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2018-01-12T03:12:38Z jasom: (uiop:operating-system)
2018-01-12T03:12:59Z jmercouris: (uiop:os-macosx-p)
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2018-01-12T03:13:14Z jasom: jmercouris: https://sites.google.com/site/sabraonthehill/test1
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2018-01-12T03:13:46Z jasom: oops: https://sites.google.com/site/sabraonthehill/lisp-document-generation-apps
2018-01-12T03:14:28Z jasom: jmercouris: depending on what you're looking for, you may go with one or another of those
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2018-01-12T03:15:20Z jmercouris: Yeah, read that before, there's some others not mentioned in that list though
2018-01-12T03:15:26Z jmercouris: or review rather
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2018-01-12T03:16:06Z jasom: I hate my users so I just don't have documentation
2018-01-12T03:16:13Z jmercouris: Lol :D
2018-01-12T03:16:46Z jmercouris: so uiop is just part of asdf right?
2018-01-12T03:16:54Z jasom: jmercouris: more or less
2018-01-12T03:16:56Z jmercouris: I don't ever remember having to install ASDF, does it just come with most implementations?
2018-01-12T03:17:08Z jasom: jmercouris: it comes with most implementations *and* it comes with quicklisp
2018-01-12T03:17:12Z bms_: Yes, generally.
2018-01-12T03:17:29Z jasom: cl:require just farms out to asdf on sbcl even
2018-01-12T03:17:51Z jmercouris: jasom: What do you mean by the "even" at the end of the sentence?
2018-01-12T03:18:06Z jasom: jmercouris: to indicate how tightly integrated it is with sbcl
2018-01-12T03:18:18Z jmercouris: I've noticed a few people on this channel end sentences with "even", never heard anyone in real life say that
2018-01-12T03:18:44Z jmercouris: jasom: Hmm, so it's like an emphasis thing, ok, just sounds a bit strange out of place
2018-01-12T03:18:49Z jasom: it's to indicate "not just X, but Y too!"
2018-01-12T03:19:10Z jmercouris: hmm ok, hopefully I won't start using it IRL :D
2018-01-12T03:19:18Z jasom: haha
2018-01-12T03:19:20Z jmercouris: anyways, thank you for the info about uiop
2018-01-12T03:19:33Z jasom: I'm pretty sure I heard it used in Indiana, and you're somewhere near there, right?
2018-01-12T03:19:39Z jmercouris: Yeah, Chicago
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2018-01-12T03:19:44Z jasom went to Purdue
2018-01-12T03:20:17Z jasom: could be a generational thing, there's lots of old farts like me in here
2018-01-12T03:20:33Z jmercouris: Hmm, maybe I should listen more closely and see if I can pick it up in conversation- it's not like I don't ever interact with old people
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2018-01-12T03:23:44Z bms_: It's more fun to talk like an early 20th century banker in a bowler hat anyway, old chap.
2018-01-12T03:24:03Z jmercouris: forsooth
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2018-01-12T03:25:06Z Timzi: anybody know a good way to time a function? I'm grabbing the *trace-output* with a `with-output-to-string`, around a (time ...) now
2018-01-12T03:25:33Z Timzi: but that involves appending that time data onto the output from what is being timed, and then the string manip...
2018-01-12T03:25:48Z Timzi: I'm looking for something a bit cleaner
2018-01-12T03:26:05Z rme: get-internal-real-time is useful for finding elapsed time
2018-01-12T03:26:14Z bms_: A snow day tomorrow, I expect. Snow should come in around 1:00 PM, leaving the school unable to get anyone home unless they dismiss at 11:00.
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2018-01-12T03:27:18Z Timzi: looks better, can that give me something finer than seconds?
2018-01-12T03:27:55Z rme: its resolution is internal-time-units-per-second
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2018-01-12T03:28:43Z Timzi: oh duh I see that in the describe now, thanks rme!
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2018-01-12T04:39:27Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2018-01-12T04:39:39Z beach: mfiano: I am never available at that time of day.  Now I am.
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2018-01-12T04:58:05Z jmercouris: good morning
2018-01-12T04:58:13Z beach: Hello jmercouris.
2018-01-12T04:58:37Z beach: jmercouris: To answer your question from yesterday: http://metamodular.com/partial-inlining.pdf
2018-01-12T04:59:06Z jmercouris: nice
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2018-01-12T04:59:10Z jmercouris: where should I send my notes?
2018-01-12T04:59:31Z jmercouris: or rather, how can I help?
2018-01-12T04:59:37Z jmercouris: I am just assuming proofreading is what you'd like
2018-01-12T04:59:56Z jmercouris: the email in the header fine?
2018-01-12T05:00:25Z beach: Yes, it is fine, but you can give comments here.
2018-01-12T05:01:27Z jmercouris: ok
2018-01-12T05:01:36Z beach: Or use my gmail address that I read more often:  robert.strandh@...
2018-01-12T05:01:41Z jmercouris: double negative "However, inlining does not have only advantages" can be simplified
2018-01-12T05:01:53Z jmercouris: "however, inlining also has disadvantages"
2018-01-12T05:02:06Z beach: OK.
2018-01-12T05:02:19Z jmercouris: I'll just write them in an email, I think that's easier
2018-01-12T05:02:27Z beach: OK, no problem.
2018-01-12T05:02:40Z beach: Also include how you would like to be acknowledged.
2018-01-12T05:03:16Z jmercouris: I'll try to think of a funny title then :D
2018-01-12T05:03:31Z beach: Your name would be best.
2018-01-12T05:04:21Z jmercouris: Ok
2018-01-12T05:08:17Z jmercouris: beach: It might be easier if you give me the latex sources, I edit them and you can then do an ediff or something
2018-01-12T05:09:22Z beach: Hmm, that assumes that I agree with your comments, no?
2018-01-12T05:09:54Z beach: Anyway, the sources are in [SICL]/Papers/Partial-inlining.
2018-01-12T05:10:09Z jmercouris: Well, you don't have to agree with my changes, but it'll make it easier for you to accept/reject them
2018-01-12T05:10:15Z beach: The repository is here: https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL
2018-01-12T05:10:17Z jmercouris: I have an easier time with ediff at least
2018-01-12T05:10:24Z jmercouris: Ok, thanks
2018-01-12T05:11:25Z jmercouris: I won't make a PR or anything, I'll just email you the diff'd file
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2018-01-12T05:11:34Z beach: Sounds good.
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2018-01-12T05:15:41Z jmercouris: the voice in this paper sounds so much like you on IRC
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2018-01-12T05:24:14Z jmercouris: the only thing I am worried about is that the diff will show changes when I type in M-q to limit the width of the paragraphs showing false changes
2018-01-12T05:24:17Z jmercouris: maybe I shoulc compile the dog
2018-01-12T05:24:23Z jmercouris: s/dog/doc :D
2018-01-12T05:24:31Z beach: I'll figure it out.
2018-01-12T05:24:38Z jmercouris: ok
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2018-01-12T05:48:58Z jmercouris: beach: Did you get my email?
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2018-01-12T06:03:13Z beach: I did.  Thanks!
2018-01-12T06:03:52Z beach: I'll process them during the day.
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2018-01-12T06:04:08Z beach: s/them/the suggested improvements/
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2018-01-12T06:14:14Z mfiano: beach: I recall you once had a great argument against using the :TYPE slot option for DEFCLASS slots. I can't seem to find that in my logs. Care to repeat your view on that matter?
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2018-01-12T06:16:05Z beach: mfiano: I think it was just the ordinary argument against manifest typing, i.e., that it forces the programmer to provide information early in the life of some software, and this information is often incorrect later on, so it creates a lot of maintenance later on.
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2018-01-12T06:17:00Z mfiano: That is fair. I think that much more applies to documentation, though. I have seen docstrings that don't agree with the following code much more often.
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2018-01-12T06:18:02Z beach: Absolutely.
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2018-01-12T06:18:51Z beach: And comments too, where the programmer thinks that more comments always provide more information.  But then they have to be kept in sync with the code.
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2018-01-12T06:21:39Z mfiano: I agree a little too much on the matter, that it sometimes hurts me. Until my software is release-ready, which is takes a long time if ever, I don't provide documentation anymore. I do however maintain offline Orgmode outlines for larger projects to help me organize my thoughts and prepare for the future when I will write real documentation -- and by real, I mean offline documentation with examples, diagrams,
2018-01-12T06:21:41Z mfiano: etc.
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2018-01-12T06:24:43Z beach: I see, yes.
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2018-01-12T06:29:15Z beach: Does the word "boclus" suggest any associations (positive or negative)?  I am thinking of using it as a name for a library.
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2018-01-12T06:32:23Z mfiano: Perhaps. Is it associated with the CLUS project?
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2018-01-12T06:32:30Z beach: No.
2018-01-12T06:32:40Z jasom: it's sulcob spelled backwards
2018-01-12T06:32:54Z mfiano: It's 'bogus' if you aren't paying attention.
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2018-01-12T06:33:26Z beach: Sure.  I don't mind that. :)
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2018-01-12T06:33:38Z beach: Maybe I'll continue thinking...
2018-01-12T06:33:41Z rme: "bolus" is the name for the wad of chewed food that goes down the esophagus after swallowing.  that's what I originally read, fwiw.
2018-01-12T06:33:52Z mfiano: Ha
2018-01-12T06:33:56Z beach: Heh.
2018-01-12T06:34:00Z jasom: okay, someone as a larger vocabulary than I
2018-01-12T06:34:56Z beach: OK, back to the drawing board.  Thanks.
2018-01-12T06:35:10Z jasom: I think it's fine as a name
2018-01-12T06:35:31Z beach: We'll see.  It is not *that* important.
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2018-01-12T06:50:03Z pillton: Have you exhausted all names starting with C?
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2018-01-12T07:02:25Z beach: pillton: No.  Just thinking of some variations.
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2018-01-12T07:28:39Z phoe: Good morning
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2018-01-12T07:39:21Z beach: Hello phoe.
2018-01-12T07:39:56Z beach: phoe: Are you planning any ELS submissions this year?
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2018-01-12T07:55:39Z crsc: Hi
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2018-01-12T07:57:43Z beach: Hello crsc.
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2018-01-12T08:41:08Z phoe: beach: I don't.
2018-01-12T08:41:32Z phoe: I need to finish CLUS instead of writing new papers.
2018-01-12T08:47:05Z beach: I see.
2018-01-12T08:47:55Z phoe: I'll work on new stuff after finishing the old one. (:
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2018-01-12T09:51:00Z hajovonta: hi all
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2018-01-12T09:51:10Z beach: Hello hajovonta.
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2018-01-12T09:52:14Z hajovonta: hm
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2018-01-12T10:10:55Z phoe: hey hajovonta
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2018-01-12T10:23:30Z hajovonta: hi phoe
2018-01-12T10:24:54Z hajovonta: it turns out that my automation framework written in CL is so useful that I have to deploy it to other colleagues
2018-01-12T10:25:00Z phoe: >have to
2018-01-12T10:25:03Z phoe: what do you mean?
2018-01-12T10:25:09Z hajovonta: manager says.
2018-01-12T10:25:18Z phoe: xD
2018-01-12T10:25:22Z phoe: that's good news!
2018-01-12T10:25:47Z hajovonta: yes, good news. I will ask stupid questions in the channel in the near future :)
2018-01-12T10:25:57Z Shinmera: Oh boy
2018-01-12T10:26:00Z phoe: go ahead, #lisp and #clnoobs are here to help
2018-01-12T10:26:10Z mfiano: Be prepared. Perfect software with no bugs suddenly becomes fragile and time consuming to maintain once you incf its users :)
2018-01-12T10:26:16Z phoe: though judging by the fact that you've already written a useful thing, it's more #lisp than #clnoobs
2018-01-12T10:26:41Z Shinmera: If software exists with no one to use it does it have any bugs?
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2018-01-12T10:27:08Z phoe: #lispzen
2018-01-12T10:27:49Z phoe: hajovonta: what exactly does it automate? is it a test framework of sorts?
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2018-01-12T10:33:37Z pjb: hajovonta: yes, what does it automate?
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2018-01-12T10:44:47Z hajovonta: phoe: yes, it helps in manual (system) testing
2018-01-12T10:45:10Z hajovonta: some tests are running for days, and at certain points, an interaction is needed
2018-01-12T10:45:46Z hajovonta: the setup of the test is usually the same every time, and I quickly got tired of repeating the same task
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2018-01-12T10:47:47Z hajovonta: at the heart of the thing is a basic CLI wrapper for SBCL which I put on github, https://github.com/hajovonta/cl-expect
2018-01-12T10:48:02Z hajovonta: it's not 100% up to date though, it got better in the last month
2018-01-12T10:48:08Z hajovonta: but you get the idea
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2018-01-12T10:55:53Z pjb: hajovonta: do you create pty/tty pairs? (like expect(1))
2018-01-12T10:56:34Z pjb: oh, it's sbcl specific.
2018-01-12T10:56:46Z hajovonta: yes
2018-01-12T10:57:04Z pjb: But in anycase, congratulation, you've got lisp's foot in the door! :-)
2018-01-12T10:57:22Z hajovonta: that's exactly what I feel, too! :)
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2018-01-12T11:09:30Z phoe: hajovonta: gratz!
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2018-01-12T11:16:42Z hajovonta: thanks
2018-01-12T11:17:16Z hajovonta: as for usefulness, I already started using it as soon as it became usable - first half of the last year
2018-01-12T11:17:33Z hajovonta: at this point, it is proven to be useful
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2018-01-12T11:19:18Z hajovonta: and it just feels good that I don't have to be in the office to do work because I have a loyal servant :)
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2018-01-12T11:21:11Z phoe: that's properly done test automation!
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2018-01-12T11:40:47Z hajovonta: how can I declare a function definition ignorable? I have some created with flet, that I don't use in a particular macroexpansion, and SBCL style-warns about deleting unused functions
2018-01-12T11:41:32Z _death: (declare (ignorable #'foo))
2018-01-12T11:42:14Z hajovonta: very cool, thanks
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2018-01-12T15:28:11Z mitc0185: I am starting a side project using GNU Common Lisp -- part of the fun is using something that's a bit dated. Any words of caution before I go too far down this road? Should I use a different distribution?
2018-01-12T15:28:25Z beach: Yes.
2018-01-12T15:28:40Z beach: SBCL, CCL, and ECL are the most common choices here.
2018-01-12T15:28:43Z random-nick: GCL is not an implementation of ANSI Common Lisp
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2018-01-12T15:30:12Z pjb: random-nick: not YET.
2018-01-12T15:30:19Z beach: mitc0185: We call them "implementations" of Common Lisp.
2018-01-12T15:30:31Z mitc0185: doh
2018-01-12T15:30:36Z mitc0185: my bad ;)
2018-01-12T15:30:46Z pjb: if you're on macOS, I would strongly advise ccl.
2018-01-12T15:31:12Z pjb: then you may use sbcl or ecl (or clisp or abcl etc) depending on the deployment platform.
2018-01-12T15:31:17Z mitc0185: I'm actually on OpenBSD, and part of the reason I found GCL first was my inferior pkg_info skills
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2018-01-12T15:31:47Z mitc0185: I will look at these options -- thanks for your help
2018-01-12T15:32:09Z tazjin: I've been trying (and failing) to use ironclad to verify RSA signatures generated using the openssl command line utility, does anyone have experience with that?
2018-01-12T15:32:09Z beach: mitc0185: The OS package managers tend to be behind compared to the latest versions.
2018-01-12T15:32:39Z pjb: Well, ccl runs on freebsdx86; I don't know about openbsd; ask in #ccl
2018-01-12T15:32:47Z beach: mitc0185: It is probably best to install SBCL directly from SourceForge, if that is what you decide to do.
2018-01-12T15:32:53Z pjb: mitc0185: https://ccl.clozure.com/download.html
2018-01-12T15:33:14Z pjb: mitc0185: you may have more luck with sbcl, indeed: http://www.sbcl.org/platform-table.html
2018-01-12T15:33:21Z beach: mitc0185: Then, it is recommended that you use Quicklisp to install the rest, including SLIME.
2018-01-12T15:33:34Z pjb: mitc0185: check http://cliki.net/Getting+Started
2018-01-12T15:33:54Z pjb: assuming you've installed emacs as a prerequisite to being a programmer anyways.
2018-01-12T15:34:09Z pjb: ^W^W computer user anyways.
2018-01-12T15:34:29Z pjb: Yes, I know, I'm old-school.
2018-01-12T15:34:30Z Shinmera: mitc0185: If you have access to a Windows, Mac, or Linux system, the easiest way would be to use http://portacle.github.io
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2018-01-12T15:35:03Z jdz: tazjin: My (successful) experience with ironclad has been decrypting DSA-encrypted content.
2018-01-12T15:35:07Z Shinmera: Could also try to compile a portacle distribution on your own, but I can't say I have high hopes of that working.
2018-01-12T15:36:22Z tazjin: @jdz unfortunately DSA doesn't help me much, the end-goal is verifying a JWT RS256 (RSA + SHA256) signature. Fukamachi's jose library implements code (using ironclad) that looks like it should do the right thing, but it doesn't seem to work
2018-01-12T15:36:56Z tazjin: and I can't get any kind of RSA-verification (or message decryption!) to work with ironclad, unless the encryption/signing was also performed using ironclad (in which case it doesn't verify/decrypt in other tools)
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2018-01-12T15:39:44Z jdz: tazjin: In my case I was decrypting data encrypted with other tools, and it worked.
2018-01-12T15:39:59Z tazjin: jdz: algorithms other than RSA work fine
2018-01-12T15:40:28Z Shinmera: You sure there isn't some kind of salting going on?
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2018-01-12T15:42:29Z jdz: Or proper padding.
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2018-01-12T15:43:58Z tazjin: Shinmera: no salting, so I'm currently investigating padding as jdz mentioned, but I'm not sure if the padding is relevant for signing?
2018-01-12T15:44:29Z tazjin: at least the ironclad API doesn't explicitly expose padding parameters for signing functions, but there are some OAEP functions that could be called manually, I'll try that
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2018-01-12T15:45:07Z jdz: tazjin: Just in case, my code is here: https://gist.github.com/jdz/fcc8c33904001468d6ce8c23e90cfb76
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2018-01-12T16:09:55Z shrdlu68: tazjin: Take a look at cl-tls, it implements PKCS1 and others.
2018-01-12T16:10:16Z tazjin: @shrdlu68 thanks, I'll take a look
2018-01-12T16:11:49Z shrdlu68: https://github.com/shrdlu68/cl-tls/blob/master/src/pkcs/pkcs1.lisp
2018-01-12T16:12:57Z tazjin: I think https://github.com/froydnj/ironclad/pull/93 may be related to my issue
2018-01-12T16:13:17Z tazjin: presumably the ironclad on quicklisp is froydnj's, and not the sharplisper's version
2018-01-12T16:13:30Z tazjin: or well, lets not presume anything, checking now :)
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2018-01-12T16:14:39Z shrdlu68: Ironclad's RSA is fine, it just doesn't do the encryption-block formatting in PKCS#1, which other tools may do.
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2018-01-12T16:18:14Z tazjin: shrdlu68: ah, your rsassa-pkcs1.5-verify looks like exactly the thing I need, thanks again
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2018-01-12T16:21:30Z shrdlu68: tazjin: I'm gladdened.
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2018-01-12T16:36:04Z Xach: Shinmera: does maiden-lookup do dns resolution during the build?
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2018-01-12T16:36:31Z Xach: Shinmera: my build host was off the network last night, and there were a number of interesting failures due to the network being down...that one surprised me a little
2018-01-12T16:36:32Z Shinmera: It fetches a couple of github pages to build a documentation index.
2018-01-12T16:37:02Z Shinmera: I could expand it into the file directly but that would mean having to update the file whenever the docs change, and having a gigantic index file.
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2018-01-12T16:37:38Z Shinmera: If it's a big deal I guess I can try to figure out a way around it being needed during build?
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2018-01-12T16:39:31Z Xach: Not a big deal
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2018-01-12T16:42:21Z Shinmera: Allows things like this:
2018-01-12T16:42:30Z Shinmera: Colleen: look up harmony extending
2018-01-12T16:42:30Z Colleen: Extending harmony's segments https://shirakumo.github.io/harmony#extending_harmony's_segments
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2018-01-12T17:07:26Z mfiano: Shinmera: hello. I got a cl-opengl question for you if you got a sec
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2018-01-12T17:09:11Z tazjin: shrdlu68: your code actually works for my use-case! Considering your license, I suppose you're fine with me selectively copying some of it into an open-source project with proper attribution?
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2018-01-12T17:10:42Z shrdlu68: tazjin: I am! I wrote that code a while back, and I believe you're the first to find it useful.
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2018-01-12T17:11:05Z beach: mfiano: So nobody else is allowed to answer, even if they know it?
2018-01-12T17:11:11Z mfiano: If I'm using the raw bindings %gl package, how should I pass in an argument that shouls be NULL as far as C is concerned? Do I have to make a null pointer with cffi or can I give it a 0 or something instead?
2018-01-12T17:11:25Z mfiano: Sure they can, if they happen to know the answer.
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2018-01-12T17:11:52Z tazjin: shrdlu68: I'm actually mildly surprised by that, do people not interface with APIs using JWTs for authentication, and if they do - don't they validate their tokens? ;-)
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2018-01-12T17:12:36Z shrdlu68: Few people, if any, do such things in CL.
2018-01-12T17:13:31Z tazjin: I think people do call APIs, but they probably just skip token verification
2018-01-12T17:13:39Z tazjin: "if it doesn't respond with 401 it's probably fine"
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2018-01-12T17:24:09Z Shinmera: mfiano: Depends on how the argument is declared in the bindings
2018-01-12T17:24:19Z Shinmera: mfiano: It should type error if you pass it the wrong thing.
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2018-01-12T17:24:39Z mfiano: Ok
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2018-01-12T17:47:28Z Xach: In sbcl, if you get STYLE-WARNING: Undefined alien: "blah", does that portend runtime failure? Or is it not predictive?
2018-01-12T17:47:50Z Xach: Will it always fail if some part of the code tries to use that alien?
2018-01-12T17:48:03Z Shinmera: The library might be loaded at a later point
2018-01-12T17:48:40Z Shinmera: If it is already loaded then it is a safe bet that a call to that function is going to fail.
2018-01-12T17:49:57Z Xach: I wonder why find-package accepts a package object.
2018-01-12T17:50:39Z Shinmera: Probably so that it can be used as an "ensure-package" operation
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2018-01-12T17:51:21Z Xach: Shinmera: How do you mean?
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2018-01-12T17:51:51Z Shinmera: Well, in any case where you need a package object, you can simply call find-package on whatever the user supplies to you to be sure you get a package object in the end.
2018-01-12T17:52:10Z Shinmera: Instead of having to do (etypecase thing ((or string symbol) (find-package thing)) (package thing))
2018-01-12T17:52:38Z Xach: That sort of just pushes the weirdness (to me) up a level?
2018-01-12T17:52:56Z Shinmera: Well, it should be called ensure-package or coerce-package, in my opinion
2018-01-12T17:53:19Z Shinmera: But I can see why one would want that sort of behaviour in general.
2018-01-12T17:54:53Z selwyn: hello everyone, i have a question about closures
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2018-01-12T17:56:09Z selwyn: in my code <https://pastebin.com/shYiVPhp> i have a function that takes various parameters as arguments and returns a lambda function that depends on them
2018-01-12T17:57:19Z selwyn: it is working fine, though sbcl tells me that this lambda function is in fact a closure, and i don't see how the lambda function 'closes over' any of the parameters
2018-01-12T17:57:56Z Xach: Shinmera: I feel like I understand the general ensure-foo paradigm, but I tend to think of it as "either find one by this name or create one with this name and return it". I am having a hard time picturing having an object that might be a string or a package, and not knowing/caring, in the first place.
2018-01-12T17:57:56Z Shinmera: It references the arguments, so it's a closure.
2018-01-12T17:58:25Z selwyn: ok thanks
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2018-01-12T17:58:47Z Shinmera: Xach: Well, think of say EXPORT &co. They all perform an operation on a package object, but accept package designators.
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2018-01-12T17:59:54Z raynold: Good morning
2018-01-12T17:59:55Z Shinmera: For another example of the same thing, in a lot of my applications where I have identifiers for objects I often want to have a function that performs some operation on it, but want to also let the user have convenience by allowing them to pass the function either the object directly, avoiding duplicate lookup, or the identifier.
2018-01-12T18:00:11Z Xach: Thanks - that's a sensible situation.
2018-01-12T18:00:24Z selwyn: so if i do something like (let ((x 1)) (lambda (y) (+ x y))) then x is closed over?
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2018-01-12T18:00:51Z Xach: I think package designators in import/export/shadow/etc can lead to poor understanding of what the operations are doing.
2018-01-12T18:00:56Z Xach: sorry, string designators.
2018-01-12T18:02:51Z Xach: Maybe I just need a mnemonic, like "only shadow supports strings" or something.
2018-01-12T18:02:52Z shrdlu68: selwyn: Don't know what you mean by "close over", but it does capture part of the environment where it's created, so it's a closure.
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2018-01-12T18:06:00Z Shinmera: selwyn: A sufficiently smart compiler could notice that the referenced variable is never changed and fold it in at closure creation time, but that's probably quite tricky to do.
2018-01-12T18:06:12Z selwyn: ah i see thanks
2018-01-12T18:06:19Z selwyn: that's what i was getting at
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2018-01-12T18:08:40Z shrdlu68: selwyn: See the "Lexical Variables and Closures" section here: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/variables.html
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2018-01-12T18:10:43Z selwyn: thanks shrdlu
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2018-01-12T18:11:39Z shka: good evening
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2018-01-12T18:14:03Z shrdlu68: Evening, shka
2018-01-12T18:14:19Z Metabox every lisper in the room
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2018-01-12T18:14:27Z Metabox greets every lisper in the room
2018-01-12T18:14:42Z oleo: evening
2018-01-12T18:15:08Z Metabox: Hello. Lispers. I would like to learn LISP. Therefore, I would like suggestions of books to learn from.
2018-01-12T18:15:17Z Metabox: Anyone, have some suggestions?
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2018-01-12T18:15:54Z random-nick: Practical Common Lisp is pretty good
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2018-01-12T18:16:10Z random-nick: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/
2018-01-12T18:16:28Z shrdlu68: http://landoflisp.com/
2018-01-12T18:16:59Z Metabox: Thank you for the suggestions! Very nice of you.
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2018-01-12T18:18:35Z selwyn: metabox, i am learning right now, 'practical common lisp' and 'on lisp' are good to start with
2018-01-12T18:19:10Z Metabox: selwyn: The book is called "on lisp"?
2018-01-12T18:19:14Z selwyn: 'common lisp recipes' and 'let over lambda' are also great, but more advanced
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2018-01-12T18:19:28Z selwyn: yes 'on lisp' by paul graham
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2018-01-12T18:20:06Z Metabox: selwyn: Much thanks.
2018-01-12T18:20:31Z selwyn: last i checked, it was out of print but you can order it <http://www.lulu.com/gb/en/shop/paul-graham/on-lisp/paperback/product-22430842.html>
2018-01-12T18:20:41Z Metabox: I think I will start with Land of Lisp and take into consideration the latter books you have suggested for further study.
2018-01-12T18:21:27Z shrdlu68: First few chapters of Norvig's PAIP, Paul Graham's ACL, Let Over Lambda, and about a dozen more. Have fun!
2018-01-12T18:22:04Z Shinmera: Let Over Lambda is terrible and I don't recommend it.
2018-01-12T18:22:47Z Metabox: Thank you all. Very kind of you.
2018-01-12T18:23:28Z selwyn: what is wrong with let over lambda?
2018-01-12T18:23:34Z shrdlu68: Beholder of the eye. I also enjoyed reading CLTL.
2018-01-12T18:23:38Z random-nick: let over lambda is more a book about common lisp macros than a book about common lisp
2018-01-12T18:23:47Z Shinmera: The code it presents is broken and the amount of self-flagellation in it is reprehensible
2018-01-12T18:24:07Z Shinmera: It is written by the exact kind of person that puts other people off of lisp because they look like a douchebag
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2018-01-12T18:24:55Z Bike: lol, welp. is that the one with defmacro/g!
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2018-01-12T18:25:04Z Shinmera: Yes
2018-01-12T18:25:13Z Bike: right.
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2018-01-12T18:49:53Z loli: the book has some nice macros one can learn from
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2018-01-12T18:50:01Z loli: it showed me a subtle error in some of my macros as well
2018-01-12T18:50:13Z loli: from what I can recall, it gets less preachy later in the book
2018-01-12T18:50:38Z Shinmera: It also has a lot of macros that in my opinion are awful style
2018-01-12T18:50:44Z loli: oh?
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2018-01-12T18:51:00Z loli: are you talking about macros like alambda and what not?
2018-01-12T18:51:06Z Shinmera: Anaphoric macros in general.
2018-01-12T18:51:21Z loli: I rather enjoy alambda for parsing lisp syntax
2018-01-12T18:51:23Z Shinmera: And things that try to be too smart, doing non-obvious code-transforms.
2018-01-12T18:51:30Z loli: I tend to do (mapcar (almabda ....))
2018-01-12T18:52:01Z loli: and a pattern match inside as I don't see the need to give those ones a name
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2018-01-12T18:54:24Z loli: I also enjoyed the insight of pointer-* and pointer-& which I used to make a better graph structure
2018-01-12T18:54:42Z loli: at least at the time
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2018-01-12T19:41:30Z rumbler31: The Machine - Bert Kreischer: THE MACHINE - YouTube
2018-01-12T19:41:32Z rumbler31: oops
2018-01-12T19:41:37Z rumbler31: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwij8PqVl9PYAhXjT98KHbSnA3wQyCkIKjAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DpaG1-lPtIXA&usg=AOvVaw0xexiSUig1wpI3puwW8dcZ
2018-01-12T19:41:38Z rumbler31: damnit
2018-01-12T19:41:46Z rumbler31: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paG1-lPtIXA
2018-01-12T19:41:51Z rumbler31: 13 minutes long you must watch this
2018-01-12T19:42:11Z rumbler31: and this whole serries
2018-01-12T19:42:13Z rumbler31: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzToNo7A-94&t=1s
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2018-01-12T19:47:34Z jasom: I consider LoL as a "not bad" source for learning macrology, but not a good source of macros to actually use
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2018-01-12T19:52:55Z rumbler31: oh i'm sorry this was the wrong window....
2018-01-12T19:53:14Z shrdlu68: Fatwa!
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2018-01-12T20:22:27Z phoe: There was this trick in X Windows that switched parentheses and brackets. Some obscure config option.
2018-01-12T20:22:30Z phoe: Does anyone remember it?
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2018-01-12T20:26:50Z Xach: phoe: I don't know specifically, but I think xmodmap is the tool to achieve it.
2018-01-12T20:28:50Z phoe: I know, manually replacing the keybindings.
2018-01-12T20:29:03Z phoe: But there was some really weird config option in X server AFAIK that achieved the same effect.
2018-01-12T20:29:14Z phoe: I saw it mentioned on #lisp once, I think.
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2018-01-12T20:30:00Z random-nick: also, emacs has keyboard-translate
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2018-01-12T20:33:22Z random-nick: phoe: is this the post you're looking for? https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/78tx8f/typing_parentheses_the_lisp_machine_way/
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2018-01-12T20:36:23Z phoe: random-nick: YES
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2018-01-12T20:36:55Z phoe: thank you so very much!
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