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2018-01-11T04:32:57Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2018-01-11T04:33:05Z jmercouris: good morning
2018-01-11T04:33:16Z beach: jmercouris: What kind of help are you offering for ELS papers?
2018-01-11T04:33:29Z beach: I usually submit early versions here for people to comment on.
2018-01-11T04:33:29Z jmercouris: I'm no expert, so I can do just proofreading/sanity type checks
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2018-01-11T04:33:37Z jmercouris: maybe some research, demos, diagrams
2018-01-11T04:33:39Z beach: OK, good.
2018-01-11T04:33:46Z beach: Coming soon.  Not quite yet, though.
2018-01-11T04:34:08Z jmercouris: cool! I look forward to it
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2018-01-11T04:41:27Z jmercouris: anyone know a cl lib that provides functionality similar to: https://www.passwordstore.org or perhaps a wrapper for it?
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2018-01-11T04:46:47Z bms_: Good morning!
2018-01-11T04:47:00Z bms_: I'll be going to bed soon.
2018-01-11T04:50:31Z madpengu: bms_: It is always morning.
2018-01-11T04:50:51Z madpengu: jmercouris: That is a stupid simple wrapper around gpg. You could probably write in cl in 2 lines of code ;)
2018-01-11T04:52:46Z bms_: I guess so.
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2018-01-11T05:05:00Z jmercouris: madpengu: I don't know about 2 lines of code...
2018-01-11T05:14:02Z jmercouris: I'm hesitant to recreate it in CL because I think there are some users of pass already, and I'd like to integrate with their workflow rather than break it
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2018-01-11T05:43:56Z madpengu: jmercouris: I use pass all day erry day. And considering that it is just a bash script, I am not sure how you can find a cl library.
2018-01-11T05:44:10Z jmercouris: it was worth an ask
2018-01-11T05:44:14Z madpengu: It is 700 lines of bash, so about 70 lisp.
2018-01-11T05:44:16Z madpengu: :P
2018-01-11T05:44:17Z jmercouris: maybe I'll end up recreating it in CL then
2018-01-11T05:44:20Z madpengu: That is for sure.
2018-01-11T05:44:25Z jmercouris: the hard part will be understanding the bash
2018-01-11T05:44:30Z jmercouris: what a terrible language
2018-01-11T05:44:34Z madpengu: you know it
2018-01-11T05:44:43Z madpengu: it is basically a terrible algol
2018-01-11T05:44:50Z jmercouris: it's basically javascript
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2018-01-11T05:46:50Z madpengu: JavaScript is far better than bash.
2018-01-11T05:47:03Z madpengu: And JavaScript is not a great language.
2018-01-11T05:48:48Z beach: jmercouris: I consider it progress whenever some existing software can be rewritten in pure Common Lisp, or at least as pure as possible, depending on the task at hand.  It makes the software safer and easier to maintain for us.
2018-01-11T05:49:30Z jmercouris: yeah, this is definitely true, though I'd still have to rely on GPG
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2018-01-11T05:51:50Z jmercouris: Ironclad also looks like a nice library: https://github.com/sharplispers/ironclad
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2018-01-11T05:52:15Z jmercouris: maybe it's not necessary to bring in GPG at all
2018-01-11T05:52:27Z jmercouris: but you'd still probably want interop with Pass
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2018-01-11T05:59:41Z beach: jmercouris: There have been some issues with Ironclad.  I suggest you ask Bike and drmeister.
2018-01-11T06:00:54Z jmercouris: beach: Ok, I'll ask tomorrow morning when they'll probably be online
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2018-01-11T06:01:04Z jmercouris: thanks for the heads up
2018-01-11T06:01:06Z beach: Sure.
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2018-01-11T06:12:20Z raynold: ahh it's a wonderful day
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2018-01-11T06:26:43Z beach: Hmm, it might be time to extract the SICL reader into a separate repository.
2018-01-11T06:27:18Z beach: I have almost all the customization code in place.  I think only what backquote returns need to be customized.
2018-01-11T06:27:38Z beach: And for the CST reader, I need to make the source information possible to customize.
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2018-01-11T06:28:39Z beach: Extracting it would be the good opportunity to make sure it is truly implementation independent, and also the opportunity to document it properly.
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2018-01-11T06:36:32Z beach: ... and to write more tests.
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2018-01-11T06:41:29Z beach: Oh, wait.  The readtable protocol must first be in place.
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2018-01-11T07:13:43Z zhoujingrui: hi
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2018-01-11T07:21:54Z beach: Hello zhoujingrui.
2018-01-11T07:22:29Z beach: zhoujingrui: Are you new here?  I don't recognize your nick.
2018-01-11T07:23:44Z zhoujingrui: yeah
2018-01-11T07:23:51Z zhoujingrui: i am new
2018-01-11T07:23:58Z beach: OK, welcome then.
2018-01-11T07:24:03Z zhoujingrui: thanks
2018-01-11T07:24:05Z beach: What brings you to #lisp?
2018-01-11T07:24:16Z zhoujingrui:  i want to learn lisp programming'
2018-01-11T07:24:23Z beach: Sounds good.
2018-01-11T07:24:48Z zhoujingrui: so what lisp do you use
2018-01-11T07:25:22Z beach: Well, #lisp is dedicated to the Common Lisp dialect of Lisp.
2018-01-11T07:25:30Z beach: But there are several implementations of it.
2018-01-11T07:25:50Z beach: The most popular one is probably SBCL.  But CCL and ECL are common as well.
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2018-01-11T07:32:03Z beach: The fact that Common Lisp has several implementations can be confusing to "modern" programmers who are used to single-implementation languages, where the language and the implementation evolve together.
2018-01-11T07:32:09Z beach: But having a fixed standard like Common Lisp does, and having several possible implementations of that standard to choose from is actually a good thing.
2018-01-11T07:32:10Z beach: A commercial software project that chooses a single-implementation language is actually taking a great risk.
2018-01-11T07:33:09Z zhoujingrui: M-x package-install RET slime RET
2018-01-11T07:33:15Z zhoujingrui: what is this mean
2018-01-11T07:33:17Z zhoujingrui: RET
2018-01-11T07:33:27Z beach: It's the RETURN key on your keyboard.
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2018-01-11T07:34:06Z beach: I usually prefer to install SLIME using Quicklisp.
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2018-01-11T07:35:54Z zhoujingrui: ok
2018-01-11T07:35:58Z beach: If you want an easy start, you might want to try Portacle.
2018-01-11T07:36:57Z dmiles: zhoujingrui: paste an entire function to pastebin, RET is used in a certain dialect of lisp that i am very familiar with
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2018-01-11T07:37:30Z dmiles: oh sorry RET its not a operator? but some package?
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2018-01-11T07:37:33Z beach: dmiles: RET has nothing to do with Lisp.  It is the RETURN key on the keyboard.
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2018-01-11T07:38:09Z dmiles: hah i see now, i thought the refernce to the keyboard was a joke.. but now i see this is instructions
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2018-01-11T07:59:02Z ebrasca: Goodmorning
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2018-01-11T08:01:02Z beach: Hello ebrasca.
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2018-01-11T08:02:39Z ebrasca: I am integrating my fat32 to mezzano. ( like function open )
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2018-01-11T08:02:48Z ebrasca: beach: how are you?
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2018-01-11T08:04:21Z beach: ebrasca: I am fine thank you.  I am working on one the ELS submissions for this year.  What about yourself?
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2018-01-11T08:05:26Z ebrasca: beach: I am fine , I have good progress with my integration.
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2018-01-11T08:05:34Z beach: Great!
2018-01-11T08:06:17Z ebrasca: Is hard to make ELS submissions?
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2018-01-11T08:06:31Z beach: No.  It's a job like any others.
2018-01-11T08:06:52Z beach: You get better with experience.
2018-01-11T08:07:01Z beach: [usually]
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2018-01-11T08:08:58Z ebrasca: How is to go to ELS?
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2018-01-11T08:09:49Z beach: Quite nice.  There are usually almost 100 participants, and many of the same people come back every year, so it is good to see them again, and discuss what they are doing.  Many people here on #lisp are regular participants.
2018-01-11T08:10:00Z hajovonta: hi all
2018-01-11T08:10:13Z beach: Hello hajovonta.
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2018-01-11T08:10:57Z hajovonta: today morning I have this error message when starting SLIME: fatal error encountered in SBCL pid XXXX: can't find core file at ~/sbcl/lib/sbcl/sbcl.core
2018-01-11T08:11:18Z beach: ebrasca: The thing to know about academic conferences is that the presentations are nice, but secondary.  The primary interest is to meet the other participants and discuss with them face to face.
2018-01-11T08:11:42Z beach: hajovonta: Maybe you need to set SBCL_HOME.
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2018-01-11T08:12:10Z ebrasca: beach: I like to go , but I am bad moving 1 site to other.
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2018-01-11T08:12:11Z hajovonta: beach: in .emacs ?
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2018-01-11T08:12:33Z beach: hajovonta: No, it's a Unix shell variable.
2018-01-11T08:12:48Z beach: hajovonta: Maybe in the .bashrc or something.  I am not an expert.
2018-01-11T08:13:10Z beach: I usually install SBCL in /usr/local, so I don't have that problem.
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2018-01-11T08:14:10Z beach: ebrasca: What do you mean?  Do you have mobility problems?
2018-01-11T08:14:46Z hajovonta: it was more than a year when I installed sbcl, but as I remember, I couldn't write to that directory
2018-01-11T08:14:53Z hajovonta: that's why it ended up in my ~
2018-01-11T08:14:59Z ebrasca: beach: Probably more management
2018-01-11T08:15:35Z |3b|: hajovonta: does that .core file exist?
2018-01-11T08:15:52Z hajovonta: yes
2018-01-11T08:16:05Z hajovonta: it's there
2018-01-11T08:16:19Z beach: OK, very preliminary version of one of the submissions: http://metamodular.com/partial-inlining.pdf
2018-01-11T08:16:25Z ebrasca: beach: Like how to get here , where to sleep , how to make it cheap to go.
2018-01-11T08:16:39Z beach: ebrasca: I see.
2018-01-11T08:17:21Z hajovonta: beach: I had discussed it briefly with my wife last week, and it seems she's excited to go there for a few days.
2018-01-11T08:17:23Z beach: ebrasca: Take a flight to Malaga, then a bus to Marbella.  Use AirBnB to get a place to stay.
2018-01-11T08:17:26Z hajovonta: when will it be?
2018-01-11T08:17:53Z beach: http://www.european-lisp-symposium.org/2018/index.html
2018-01-11T08:18:39Z |3b|: hajovonta: have you reinstalled sbcl since then, or made any major changes to OS install?
2018-01-11T08:18:44Z hajovonta: thanks. I forward it to her :)
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2018-01-11T08:19:58Z ebrasca: beach: How much money I need to have?
2018-01-11T08:20:37Z beach: Not much beyond transportation, room and ELS fee.
2018-01-11T08:21:13Z beach: Lunch is typically included, and typically also the conference dinner.
2018-01-11T08:21:24Z hajovonta: |3b|: I don't think so. but the problem is only present when I start via M-x slime. If I open a terminal then I can start SBCL. I have a script that I use to set up an load certain lisp files into the image at start (with sbcl --load) and then load SLIME's swank-loader and connect to it in a separate step
2018-01-11T08:21:27Z hajovonta: and it works okay
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2018-01-11T08:22:04Z beach: hajovonta: Does your .emacs contain an explicit reference to the .core file?
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2018-01-11T08:22:59Z ebrasca: beach: google say only for 1 flights is PLN979
2018-01-11T08:23:02Z hajovonta: beach: no it doesn't
2018-01-11T08:23:05Z beach: ebrasca: The fee is very small, so your cost is going to be dominated by transportation.
2018-01-11T08:23:36Z ebrasca: beach: https://www.google.com/flights/#search;f=OSR;t=AGP,YJM;d=2018-01-28;r=2018-02-01
2018-01-11T08:24:22Z beach: ebrasca: Looks reasonable.
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2018-01-11T08:25:52Z beach: Quite reasonable in fact.
2018-01-11T08:26:06Z ebrasca: 2.5 months to pay 1 flight
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2018-01-11T08:26:22Z beach: I see your problem.
2018-01-11T08:26:37Z beach: ebrasca: Are you employed, or a student?
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2018-01-11T08:28:22Z ebrasca: beach: My father pays me. I am not employed or a student.
2018-01-11T08:28:52Z ebrasca: beach: I am working to start secure email server.
2018-01-11T08:29:02Z beach: I see.
2018-01-11T08:29:44Z |3b|: hajovonta: compare echo $SBCL_HOME in shell to M-x getenv SBCL_HOME in emacs
2018-01-11T08:29:54Z ebrasca: My mail server hardware need all my money.
2018-01-11T08:30:32Z |3b|: hajovonta: and if you specify a path to sbcl in .emacs, try specifying that path in shell
2018-01-11T08:30:36Z hajovonta: |3b|: it's the same (~/sbcl/lib/sbcl)
2018-01-11T08:30:46Z |3b|: (and/or compare to results of  which sbcl  in shell)
2018-01-11T08:31:12Z |3b|: do you start emacs from some graphical thing or from a shell?
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2018-01-11T08:31:47Z hajovonta: I clicked an icon (that I created back then) :)
2018-01-11T08:32:20Z hajovonta: ~/emacs-24.5/src/emacs --no-desktop --debug-init
2018-01-11T08:32:24Z hajovonta: that's the shortcut
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2018-01-11T08:33:53Z |3b|: yeah, that might give you different environment variables depending on where you set them, so make sure you are running same sbcl in both
2018-01-11T08:36:30Z |3b|: and if you get a version # in the error message from starting it in emacs, compare that to what you get from shell
2018-01-11T08:37:34Z hajovonta: maybe quicklisp gets in the way? I have that two lines that ql:add-to-init-file generated
2018-01-11T08:37:40Z hajovonta: in .sbclrc
2018-01-11T08:37:59Z |3b|: quicklisp shouldn't matter until the lisp system is running, which would need the core
2018-01-11T08:38:21Z hajovonta: I see
2018-01-11T08:38:49Z hajovonta: the full error message starts with this:
2018-01-11T08:39:01Z hajovonta: (progn (load "/home/_/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/slime-v2.19/swank-loader.lisp" :verbose t) (funcall (read-from-string "swank-loader:init")) (funcall (read-from-string "swank:start-server") "/tmp/slime.8992"))
2018-01-11T08:39:18Z hajovonta: then fatal error encountered in SBCL pid 8997(tid 140737353733888):
2018-01-11T08:39:18Z hajovonta: can't find core file at ~/sbcl/lib/sbcl/sbcl.core
2018-01-11T08:40:48Z |3b|: nothing in between?
2018-01-11T08:40:55Z hajovonta: nothing else
2018-01-11T08:40:59Z hajovonta: an empty line
2018-01-11T08:41:13Z phoe: hajovonta: how did you install sbcl?
2018-01-11T08:41:29Z hajovonta: compiled from source
2018-01-11T08:41:50Z phoe: M-x ielm, tell me what is the value of inferior-lisp-program
2018-01-11T08:41:53Z d4ryus1 is now known as d4ryus
2018-01-11T08:42:07Z hajovonta: "~/sbcl/bin/sbcl"
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2018-01-11T08:42:14Z phoe: is your core file present at ~/sbcl/lib/sbcl/sbcl.core ?
2018-01-11T08:42:20Z hajovonta: yes
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2018-01-11T08:42:45Z hajovonta: it's there
2018-01-11T08:42:47Z |3b|: in shell, what is printed by  which sbcl
2018-01-11T08:42:53Z hajovonta: and I can start sbcl from the terminal
2018-01-11T08:43:01Z hajovonta: but not via M-x slime
2018-01-11T08:43:23Z hajovonta: This is SBCL 1.3.14, an implementation of ANSI Common Lisp.
2018-01-11T08:43:30Z hajovonta: and other license stuff
2018-01-11T08:43:42Z phoe: hajovonta: what is printed by `which sbcl` in shell?
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2018-01-11T08:44:07Z hajovonta: ~/sbcl/bin/sbcl
2018-01-11T08:44:11Z |3b|: is slime-lisp-implementations set in emacs?
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2018-01-11T08:44:30Z hajovonta: |3b|: it's nil
2018-01-11T08:45:18Z |3b|: ~/sbcl/bin/sbcl is an executable and not a script?
2018-01-11T08:45:47Z phoe: `file ~/sbcl/bin/sbcl`
2018-01-11T08:46:18Z hajovonta: ~/sbcl/bin/sbcl: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), for GNU/Linux 2.6.18, dynamically linked (uses shared libs), not stripped
2018-01-11T08:47:42Z phoe: hajovonta: try replacing ~ with an expanded path to your homedir, in the inferior-lisp-program elisp variable.
2018-01-11T08:48:05Z hajovonta: it's actually expanded, I replaced it here to mask my username
2018-01-11T08:48:21Z |3b|: is it ~ in SBCL_HOME ?
2018-01-11T08:48:30Z phoe: oh, I see.
2018-01-11T08:48:35Z hajovonta: yes
2018-01-11T08:48:44Z phoe: then you might want to replace it there
2018-01-11T08:49:15Z hajovonta: yes, that was the problem. Thank you guys!
2018-01-11T08:49:19Z phoe: <3
2018-01-11T08:49:53Z |3b|: and it is same version when started from emacs?
2018-01-11T08:50:26Z varjag: the nearest airport to els locales is malaga?
2018-01-11T08:50:30Z varjag: right
2018-01-11T08:50:41Z |3b|: and (user-homedir-pathname) returns same thing from both?
2018-01-11T08:50:44Z varjag: should book the tickets..
2018-01-11T08:53:38Z hajovonta: the versions match
2018-01-11T08:53:59Z hajovonta: (why wouldn't they, I only have 1 sbcl on the system... )
2018-01-11T08:56:06Z |3b|: first rule of tech support, even if you know something is true, check anyway :)
2018-01-11T08:56:12Z hajovonta: :)
2018-01-11T08:56:59Z hajovonta: my brother who once worked in tech support, said that 40% of the problems was due to some power failure (not plugged in, not switched on, etc)
2018-01-11T08:57:11Z |3b|: yeah
2018-01-11T08:57:36Z |3b|: and probably 40% of the rest were not plugged in but the person just didn't tell them after figuring that out :)
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2018-01-11T09:20:11Z ebzzry: The slime docs say that to load a system, one can use `M-x slime-load-system`
2018-01-11T09:20:17Z ebzzry: However that function can’t be found.
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2018-01-11T09:22:10Z ebzzry: Am I missing something?
2018-01-11T09:22:16Z jdz: ebzzry: Make sure you have slime-asdf contrib loaded.
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2018-01-11T09:28:40Z beach: Slightly updated version of one ELS submission here: http://metamodular.com/partial-inlining.pdf
2018-01-11T09:30:19Z otwieracz: How to perform $ curl -F data=@my-file -X POST http://localhost:8080/restore with drakma?
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2018-01-11T09:31:09Z otwieracz: I believed something like: `(drakma:http-request (build-url "restore") :method :post :parameters `(("data" . ,(pathname file))))`, but it keeps running indefinitely with numerous weird TCP Window Something messags in wireshark.
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2018-01-11T09:33:14Z ebzzry: jdz: Ho
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2018-01-11T09:40:08Z ebzzry: jdz: thanks!
2018-01-11T09:40:10Z beach: Ho?
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2018-01-11T09:49:11Z |3b|: otwieracz: maybe :parameters `(("data" . (,(pathname file) :content-type ".../..." :filename "..."))) ?
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2018-01-11T09:50:09Z scymtym: beach: in the first paragraph of section 3, inlining of globally defined functions is discussed. i have two suggestions: 1) state explicitly (if it actually is the case) that the remainder of the paper will not be concerned with this kind of inlining 2) if possible, avoid "we simply incorporate the abstract syntax tree of F" since that sounds like the descriptions in other sources cited and criticized earlier
2018-01-11T09:51:53Z otwieracz: |3b|: same. *and* btw SBCL is frying CPU at 100%.
2018-01-11T09:52:20Z beach: scymtym: Thanks.
2018-01-11T09:53:07Z beach: I need to think about how to say that.
2018-01-11T09:53:42Z scymtym: beach: i have no idea either. that's why i didn't try to suggest an alternate formulation
2018-01-11T09:54:05Z orivej quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
2018-01-11T09:54:24Z beach: Yeah, that's my job. :)
2018-01-11T09:55:02Z flip214: minion: memo for sjl: thanks a lot for the vlime update.... (but) I'm currently looking at spacemacs.... let's see.
2018-01-11T09:55:02Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell sjl when he/she/it next speaks.
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2018-01-11T10:00:26Z beach: scymtym: I added a phrase that I hope clarifies the purpose of incorporating the AST.
2018-01-11T10:00:32Z beach: Thanks for pointing it out.
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2018-01-11T10:06:42Z scymtym: beach: sure. i think the addition clears it up
2018-01-11T10:08:49Z beach: Great!  Thanks again.
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2018-01-11T10:16:24Z |3b|: beach: in 3rd bullet list in 3.2 "...about ownership lexical variables.", missing "of"?
2018-01-11T10:19:14Z beach: Fixed!  Thanks!
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2018-01-11T10:20:20Z otwieracz: |3b|: semes like it works with :content-length t
2018-01-11T10:20:50Z otwieracz: |3b|: what means that I have to load few GB into memory…
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2018-01-11T10:21:43Z beach: otwieracz: What is your native language?
2018-01-11T10:21:55Z |3b|: :/
2018-01-11T10:22:42Z beach: I am asking because other people here also use "what" instead of "which" or "that", so I am wondering what languages might do that.
2018-01-11T10:23:09Z beach: otwieracz: I am not complaining.  I am just an amateur linguist. :)
2018-01-11T10:24:51Z otwieracz: beach: Polish, unfortunately. Sorry, my native language, forigve me for this advertisement. :)
2018-01-11T10:25:24Z beach: Not unfortunately at all.
2018-01-11T10:25:38Z beach: I would love to know Polish.
2018-01-11T10:26:38Z tazjin: I'd love to learn Russian, but it's very difficult to learn a language like that without living in the country
2018-01-11T10:26:59Z tazjin: and Russia is not the kind of place I'd like to live in :)
2018-01-11T10:27:17Z beach: Heh.
2018-01-11T10:27:38Z |3b|: beach: "As we can see in Figure 2, An ..." -> "... Figure 2, an ..." ?
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2018-01-11T10:28:46Z beach: Thanks.  Fixed.
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2018-01-11T10:31:18Z beach: scymtym: How would you like to be acknowledged?
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2018-01-11T10:35:40Z beach: Someone should write a document entitled "the making of an ELS submission" :)
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2018-01-11T10:47:19Z |3b|: beach: could be a bit more clear about how the 4 steps in 3.2 correspond to worklist items, in particular "the mapping" and similar in step 4 are for each of 2 output worklist items
2018-01-11T10:47:40Z beach: OK, I'll look into that.
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2018-01-11T10:48:23Z beach: It won't be right away.  It's almost lunch time.
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2018-01-11T10:51:31Z pjb: tazjin: use youtube for you linguistic bath: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuSx-lf2ft7hPceGVNHybOw https://www.youtube.com/user/starmedia https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K59KKnIbIaM https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC2D0dmLHKbIe9aACnlcTLPg
2018-01-11T10:52:36Z tazjin: pjb:  language learning is an interactive process for me, but maybe I could find myself a community of Russian expats ;-)
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2018-01-11T10:54:30Z |3b|: beach: are your refs #4 and 5 the same?
2018-01-11T10:55:00Z |3b|: beach: and 3,6
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2018-01-11T10:56:02Z |3b|: beach: actually possibly all 4 are same thing?
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2018-01-11T10:56:39Z |3b|: beach: same authors, titles, pages, similar publication
2018-01-11T10:57:19Z |3b|: beach: 1,2 are also similarly odd
2018-01-11T10:57:51Z |3b| doesn't do papers though, so maybe it is supposed to look like that :)
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2018-01-11T10:59:16Z mfiano: #1 and #2 look the same except volume/issue number
2018-01-11T10:59:21Z mfiano: Oh you had mentioned
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2018-01-11T11:05:13Z ebzzry: Why does loading quicklisp say this: https://pastebin.com/3ccPZtQY
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2018-01-11T11:06:07Z |3b|: ebzzry: might try (ql:update-client)
2018-01-11T11:07:03Z |3b|: (assuming you aren't trying to load quicklisp as part of loading something else)
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2018-01-11T11:09:32Z beach: |3b|: Different journals/conferences, so the papers might not be identical.
2018-01-11T11:10:32Z beach: Oh, maybe 3 and 6 are the same.
2018-01-11T11:10:45Z beach: and 4 and 5.
2018-01-11T11:10:48Z beach: I'll look into that.
2018-01-11T11:11:50Z beach: It used to be current practice to "publish" both in SIGPLAN notices (no peer review) and in a conference (with peer review).
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2018-01-11T11:12:11Z |3b|: ah
2018-01-11T11:12:50Z beach: But, yeah, there are definitely duplications.  Odd.
2018-01-11T11:12:52Z _death: perform some Same-Paper Coalescing Optimization
2018-01-11T11:13:38Z beach: It's OK to include both references in case of SIGPLAN+conference.  They may be slightly different, and one could be easier to get hold of.
2018-01-11T11:14:22Z |3b|: also odd that 3 and 6 sorted differently (assuming it is sorted automatically)
2018-01-11T11:14:34Z beach: Yeah, I need to figure that one out.
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2018-01-11T11:14:55Z beach: It should be automatic.  Alphabetical order.
2018-01-11T11:15:02Z |3b|: though presumably related to whatever caused duplication in the first place
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2018-01-11T11:16:19Z Lithp: Good day Lispers.. So is it possible to have an object (B) be the slot-value of another object (A) and then modify the print-slot-value of (A) to print the values of (B) under the (A) slot when calling print-object on (A)?
2018-01-11T11:16:43Z p_l: ... I don't see why not?
2018-01-11T11:16:50Z Lithp: Maybe the meta-question is should i be putting object instances in another instances slots?
2018-01-11T11:17:17Z p_l: Lithp: there's nothing saying you shouldn't. They are just objects, like any other value
2018-01-11T11:17:21Z |3b|: everything you would put in a slot is an instance of some object
2018-01-11T11:17:35Z p_l: just not everything is a CLOS class
2018-01-11T11:17:40Z Lithp: I just had an aha moment.
2018-01-11T11:17:57Z phoe: but everything is an instance of *some* class
2018-01-11T11:18:18Z |3b| isn't sure what you are asking though. do you want to modify the printing of As to show B? or somehow cause the printing to change due to containing a B without explicitly modifying the printing of As?
2018-01-11T11:18:35Z Lithp: Exactly
2018-01-11T11:18:42Z |3b|: yeah, instance of some class, not some object
2018-01-11T11:18:46Z phoe: can do that
2018-01-11T11:19:03Z phoe: define a print-object method on A that somehow prints the contents of B
2018-01-11T11:19:14Z Lithp: So a print-onject would nest an object instance under the holder instance slot
2018-01-11T11:19:34Z Lithp: I have an idea and will post back asap
2018-01-11T11:19:55Z phoe: this is pretty commonly done, actually, when you want to print-unreadable-object with some details about this object
2018-01-11T11:20:04Z phoe: and the details are usually fetched from this object's slots
2018-01-11T11:20:35Z phoe: so you can have #<PERSON "John Doe" (01-04-1980) #x12345678>
2018-01-11T11:20:52Z phoe: instead of a nameless #<PERSON #x12345678>
2018-01-11T11:21:04Z Lithp: Thats where my problem is arising.. print-unreadable to afile needs to be able to print the nested object
2018-01-11T11:21:21Z phoe: Lithp: and what's the problem with that?
2018-01-11T11:21:38Z phoe: Wait, to a file? What do you mean?
2018-01-11T11:22:57Z |3b|: just print the contents of the slot, and the print-object method for whatever is there will be used :)
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2018-01-11T11:27:02Z ebzzry: |3b|: I got `The most up-to-date client, version 2017-03-06, is already installed.`
2018-01-11T11:28:28Z |3b|: ebzzry: what are you trying to load? the message seems to be saying that whatever it is you are loading has a bad .asd :)
2018-01-11T11:28:40Z ebzzry: |3b|: Yes, I’ll check.
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2018-01-11T11:29:25Z ebzzry: |3b|: the bug was loading quicklisp via another asd
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2018-01-11T11:45:43Z ebrasca: beach: partial inlining sound good
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2018-01-11T12:17:19Z solene: hello, I'm stuck at something that seems simple.. I'm trying to loop over a list of values and call a macro with each value, like this example : https://zerobin.net/?ed147d5ef76b1dda#sFl8qUYx6UOztDsm6871VWCEa5pp1jFdWe8+tzkcEvc=
2018-01-11T12:17:35Z solene: but all I get is hello NAME because name is taken as a symbol
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2018-01-11T12:22:30Z |3b|: solene: macros are expanded before it starts evaluating the loop (for example during compilation), so it can't see the value of variables inside the loop when it is expanded
2018-01-11T12:23:09Z solene: |3b|, is there a way to do it ?
2018-01-11T12:23:22Z |3b|: what are you trying to do?
2018-01-11T12:23:40Z |3b|: (as in what motivated you to write a macro instead of just use a function)
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2018-01-11T12:24:51Z |3b|: possibly you wanted ,(getf parameters :name) in the macro, but then it would break if you stored the parameters in a variable
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2018-01-11T12:25:46Z |3b|: or maybe you just wanted a function with keyword arguments, (defun hello (&key name) (format t "hello ~a~%" name)) (loop for name in '(...) do (hello :name name))
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2018-01-11T12:26:47Z solene: this example is a reduced version of a macro I use in a piece of code I wrote. It's hard to explain... but it's a "config file" for non lisp people. I found it easier to write (f name1 test-this (:param1 "hello")) instead of (f 'name1 'test-this '(list :param1 "hello")))
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2018-01-11T12:29:54Z p_l: what's the current status on web frameworks? Something more complete than bare-bones HTTP handling + templates, for example seaside style?
2018-01-11T12:30:44Z pjb: solene: macros are called this way: (funcall (macro-function 'm) `(m …) nil)
2018-01-11T12:31:28Z pjb: so: (loop for name in '("martin" "sheley") collect (funcall (macro-function 'hello) `(hello (:name ,name)) nil)))
2018-01-11T12:31:31Z |3b|: solene: well, that example has all quoted values and no variables, which would work with your macro
2018-01-11T12:31:43Z pjb: this is how you call a macro at run-time.
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2018-01-11T12:32:39Z solene: |3b|, the real world example : https://pastebin.com/NJAyz98G
2018-01-11T12:32:48Z |3b|: if you want a more complicated not-quite-lisp DSL that interacts with lisp variables, you may need to do more work in your code/macros
2018-01-11T12:33:48Z |3b|: possibly you want a functional API you can call from code that is used by the "non-lisp-user" macro
2018-01-11T12:33:51Z pjb: solene: (loop for partition in '("/" "/home/" "/var/") collect (funcall (macro-function '=>) `(=> mail disk-usage (:path ,partition :limit 90)) nil))
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2018-01-11T12:34:24Z |3b|: so you could do (=> whatever) or (function-=> 'whatever)
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2018-01-11T12:34:56Z pjb: solene: when you call a function, you pass the parameters in number, type and order that are required by the function. It's the same with a macro function.
2018-01-11T12:35:08Z solene: i see, sadly it get too much complicated for non lisper. I may write a wrapper for passing a list maybe
2018-01-11T12:35:31Z pjb: It should make you think!
2018-01-11T12:35:35Z pjb: You have two ways out.
2018-01-11T12:36:03Z pjb: And when I say "think", it should be obvious if you run my code examples…
2018-01-11T12:37:12Z |3b|: consider for example distinguishing (=> mail disk-usage (call-some-function)) from what you have, like if you wanted to look up the mount-point and usage from a DB
2018-01-11T12:38:18Z |3b|: at some point you end up adding back in the ' to distinguish which things should be evaluated or not, and are back to just having a function
2018-01-11T12:39:25Z |3b|: there is also the option of writing a macro that expands to a bunch of (=> ...) forms, if the cases where you want variables are limited enough
2018-01-11T12:39:40Z solene: pjb, I understood your examples, I may build something with it maybe
2018-01-11T12:39:48Z solene: i thank you for your answers
2018-01-11T12:39:57Z |3b|: though possibly still had to do cleanly without parsing the forms manually, for same reasons
2018-01-11T12:40:24Z pjb: solene: well no!  |3b| listed the correct options: - modify your macro to evaluate arguments at run-time, or - write a macro to expand to multiple macro calls!
2018-01-11T12:40:37Z pjb: or of course, use a function, not a macro.
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2018-01-11T12:40:45Z pjb: How can you justify a macro here?
2018-01-11T12:42:31Z pjb: What funcall macro-function demonstrate is that a macro generates CODE.  Therefore there's almost always no point in calling it at run-time.
2018-01-11T12:42:47Z solene: pjb, it's only to skip quoting the names mail and disk-usage in the example case
2018-01-11T12:43:17Z pjb: Again, no point in skipping quoting.  As you've seen, you want to pass the result of expressions and variables!
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2018-01-11T12:48:14Z solene: I see, using a function instead of a macro would just requires using (=> 'mail 'disk-usage ) and everying would works
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2018-01-11T12:49:16Z pjb: solene: you can also use keywords: (=> :mail :disk-usage) so no need for quotes then.
2018-01-11T12:49:49Z solene: pjb, : or ' that doesn't change that much
2018-01-11T12:50:15Z pjb: or also extend your language: (defconstant mail 'mail) (defconstant disk-usage 'disk-usage)  then: (=> mail disk-usage)
2018-01-11T12:50:38Z solene: ahh, good. I have a macro to create the defun of disk-usage etc...
2018-01-11T12:50:50Z pjb: But the point is that you can write (=> *where* *what*)
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2018-01-11T12:55:12Z ecraven: with correct definitions, you can even write (*where* => *what*) :P
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2018-01-11T13:44:17Z solene: pjb, thank you for your help. I've been able to use a function instead of a macro, this makes everything easier, and so I've been able to use a &rest parameter. So  (=> mail disk-usage (:path "/" :limit 90)) becomes  (=> mail disk-usage :path "/" :limit 90)
2018-01-11T13:44:57Z solene: using (defparameter disk-usage 'disk-usage) when disk-usage is created :)
2018-01-11T13:47:11Z lieven: if you want self evaluating symbols, you could just use :disk-usage
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2018-01-11T13:51:21Z solene: lieven, I aim at non lisper as this is a configuration file, I prefer avoid most of syntax is possible
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2018-01-11T13:52:16Z ebzzry: What library provides good list comprehensions?
2018-01-11T13:52:40Z solene: I'm working on a monitoring tool that check user defined things and use some user defined alerts when the check fails, it should be really easy to use
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2018-01-11T13:54:03Z pjb: solene: if you aim non-lispers, perhaps you should write your own interpreter for your configuration files.  As it is, I assume you use LOAD, and any lisp is available. This will be confusing to naive users when they'll enter the debugger for incorrect lisp code.
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2018-01-11T13:59:41Z solene: pjb, I want that the config file allow to use code in it, and the config is really easy. It's a personal project that I share to people so it should be improved with time or if people contribute
2018-01-11T14:00:21Z solene: but at the moment, I aim at something with a relative ease of use and easy to develop (it's only 200 lines)
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2018-01-11T14:09:26Z beach: ebrasca: Thanks!
2018-01-11T14:09:47Z beach: |3b|: I think I fixed both issues (worklist items and references).
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2018-01-11T15:22:57Z rumbler31: good morning
2018-01-11T15:23:15Z kark: morning
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2018-01-11T15:24:11Z beach: Hello rumbler31.  Hello kark.
2018-01-11T15:24:40Z oleo: evening
2018-01-11T15:24:48Z beach: kark: Are you new here?  I don't recognize your nick.
2018-01-11T15:25:08Z kark: hiya
2018-01-11T15:25:10Z kark: yeah, I'm new
2018-01-11T15:25:23Z beach: OK, welcome then.  What brings you to #lisp?
2018-01-11T15:25:47Z kark: just here to listen :)
2018-01-11T15:26:06Z beach: Fair enough.
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2018-01-11T15:26:56Z oleo: weird, all of a sudden 2Gb dynamic space size does not suffice anymore and i get into the debugger telling the control stack overflow
2018-01-11T15:27:16Z beach: oleo: The control stack is not in the dynamic space.
2018-01-11T15:27:18Z oleo: i hope the kernel update didn't botch anything
2018-01-11T15:27:34Z oleo: ya, but it worked yesterday and today it is telling that
2018-01-11T15:27:37Z oleo: i don't get it
2018-01-11T15:27:43Z beach: oleo: It is more likely that you have a runaway recursion.
2018-01-11T15:27:50Z oleo: i built a mcclim image
2018-01-11T15:28:22Z oleo: and i'm running that and when i open some .lisp file to edit in climacs, i get thrown into the debugger with that control stack stuff
2018-01-11T15:28:37Z oleo: the thing is yesterday it was working ok
2018-01-11T15:28:45Z beach: Strange indeed.
2018-01-11T15:28:52Z oleo: and i only updated the kernel along with libc
2018-01-11T15:29:08Z beach: Wow, yes I see why you are baffled.
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2018-01-11T15:30:52Z oleo: ok, what should i do ?
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2018-01-11T15:31:23Z oleo: i didn't specify control stack size, neither at compile time of my local sbcl nor at the time of making the mcclim image
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2018-01-11T15:31:54Z oleo: and normally i use 2Gb for dynamic space size
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2018-01-11T15:32:15Z oleo: recompile ?
2018-01-11T15:32:27Z oleo: well, i'll just recompile sbcl
2018-01-11T15:32:36Z oleo: and see if stuff works afterwards as expected
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2018-01-11T15:44:16Z oleo: wth, it doesn't go away
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2018-01-11T15:48:22Z rumbler31: when you land in the debugger, does the backtrace make sense?
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2018-01-11T15:49:38Z oleo: CL-USER> INFO: Control stack guard page unprotected
2018-01-11T15:49:38Z oleo: Control stack guard page temporarily disabled: proceed with caution
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2018-01-11T15:50:19Z oleo: that's all i get, and it throws into the debugger obviously cause the file doesn't get displayed actually and it all goes unresponsive at that moment, so i don't get a real backtrace either
2018-01-11T15:50:42Z rumbler31: hmm
2018-01-11T15:50:54Z oleo: when i press C-c again a debugger frame pops up but then that's only because of my interrupt
2018-01-11T15:51:01Z rumbler31: what happens if you load things outside of climacs
2018-01-11T15:51:12Z oleo: hmm, didn't test that
2018-01-11T15:51:14Z oleo: wait a bit
2018-01-11T15:51:36Z oleo: i was suspicious that my drive went bad and am fscking it
2018-01-11T15:51:52Z oleo: will take a few minutes
2018-01-11T15:52:08Z beach: Watching drmeister struggle with debugging, I had an idea for a great project.  The GraphViz algorithms are quite well documented.  An implementation in Common Lisp of those algorithms would make it possible to whip up a CLIM window with some graphs corresponding to things like ASTs, HIR instruction graphs, discriminating automata, etc.
2018-01-11T15:52:10Z Shinmera: the debugger is being invoked in another thread. Run it with slime to catch it.
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2018-01-11T15:53:22Z beach: Currently, we have to generate a dot file, then apply GraphViz to it, and finally, start some image viewer to view it.
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2018-01-11T15:54:16Z Shinmera: beach: Writing a native flow chart editor has been on my "not so far in the future" todo. I don't think I'm going to emulate graphviz, but that could be used instead too for your purposes.
2018-01-11T15:54:31Z beach: Yes, indeed.
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2018-01-11T15:54:42Z Shinmera: Well, I already have a prototype, but it doesn't draw connections between elements nicely or know how to distribute nodes automatically.
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2018-01-11T15:54:52Z beach: I was just thinking of GraphViz because it is well documented, and they did the required research.
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2018-01-11T16:00:10Z beach: Shinmera: So do you plan to come up with layout algorithms yourself?
2018-01-11T16:00:25Z Shinmera: Might be an interesting problem to think about, but I don't know yet.
2018-01-11T16:00:40Z beach: As I recall, it's a hard problem.
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2018-01-11T16:00:55Z Shinmera: The domain may also be different for my application (flow charts) than for graphviz (general graphs)
2018-01-11T16:01:08Z beach: Yes, I see.
2018-01-11T16:01:24Z Shinmera: Anyway, I'm sure I'll do some research into existing systems when I  get to it.
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2018-01-11T16:01:39Z beach: Of course.
2018-01-11T16:03:42Z Bike: well most of the stuff in cleavir is flow charts.
2018-01-11T16:04:00Z beach: True.
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2018-01-11T16:06:22Z Shinmera: You could probably get pretty far by doing a primitive thing like: on split, move one line down by the height of an element and continue the other on the same line. Would just have to know at which point a loop happens so you can avoid the recursion.
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2018-01-11T16:10:34Z Xach: I think Luke Gorrie uses a smalltalk environment to visualize things like that in his language development.
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2018-01-11T16:11:15Z beach: Are you saying Smalltalk already has the layout software?
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2018-01-11T16:11:41Z Xach: beach: I think the environment he uses lends itself to developing new visualizations. That is just a guess, though.
2018-01-11T16:11:49Z beach: I see.
2018-01-11T16:11:55Z Xach: I don't know if he is reusing existing capability or developing new capability.
2018-01-11T16:12:05Z Xach: I do know that the screenshots look pretty.
2018-01-11T16:12:21Z Xach: And he is doing low-level work in a non-mainstream environment and is productive.
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2018-01-11T16:13:06Z beach: Might be worthwhile asking him.  Thanks for pointing it out.
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2018-01-11T16:18:55Z Xach: alvy ray smith has a nice set of memos and papers that are kind of about the sprite model of compositing graphics, but indirectly illustrate the power of carefully-chosen primitive data structures and operations as a solid foundation for efficient work
2018-01-11T16:20:15Z beach: Isn't that an orthogonal issue compared to graph layout?
2018-01-11T16:20:58Z Xach: Yes...I guess the connection there is that a good foundation allows you to experiment with different layout algorithms quickly rather than a slow batch process where you are reluctant to discard the (unnecessarily) hard work that got you to an unsatisfactory solution
2018-01-11T16:21:17Z beach: Sure, yes.
2018-01-11T16:21:19Z Xach: And I think the smalltalk environment may offer that
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2018-01-11T16:25:33Z scymtym_: http://pharo.org/ (in case anyone wants to have a closer look)
2018-01-11T16:25:37Z oleo: ok
2018-01-11T16:25:41Z oleo: i don't get the file fd somehow
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2018-01-11T16:34:26Z rumbler31: oleo: what?
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2018-01-11T17:36:56Z dmiles: does anyone have code for printing back the defclasses say out of clisp?
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2018-01-11T17:38:20Z dmiles: to give an idea of what i am talking about.. https://pastebin.com/UcULHXzP
2018-01-11T17:39:16Z dmiles: mostly what i am after though is the initarg and initforms
2018-01-11T17:40:27Z beach: Did you type that code, or was it generated?
2018-01-11T17:40:59Z dmiles: i typed it .. but made it square so i could cut/paste it into repl easier
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2018-01-11T17:43:08Z beach: It is not clear what you mean by "printing back the defclasses".  There is no such thing as "a defclass".  There is such a thing as "a class" and such a thing as "a DEFCLASS form".
2018-01-11T17:43:24Z beach: And it is not clear what "printing back" is supposed to mean.
2018-01-11T17:43:50Z beach: There are a bunch of problems with the code you pasted, and it is not clear how it is related to your question either.
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2018-01-11T17:44:12Z beach: Is this the code you would like to see "printed back"?  Is it code that you think might do the "printing back"?
2018-01-11T17:44:14Z dmiles: " to give an idea of what i am talking abou"
2018-01-11T17:44:20Z pjb: Anyways, the MOP provides all the information. You can extract it and build a  defclass form.
2018-01-11T17:44:48Z dmiles: i am looking to print out the defclass forms.. even if they are not perfect or complete
2018-01-11T17:45:13Z beach: How can you print a form that is not complete?
2018-01-11T17:45:16Z pjb: dmiles: this is easy: (pprint (defclass-form-for-class (find-class 'foo)))
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2018-01-11T17:47:54Z Bike: why do you want to do this?
2018-01-11T17:48:19Z Bike: this code kinda blows.
2018-01-11T17:50:51Z ebdreger: "why" +1
2018-01-11T17:51:15Z ebdreger: I mean... someone could use some MOP-fu to build a metaclass that stores * in some special location... but... why?
2018-01-11T17:51:41Z dmiles: why: at that point i wrote that I was translating some things to another language.. now that i have my class compiler working .. i am going back to grovel the defclass forms
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2018-01-11T17:52:08Z ebdreger: dmiles: ah. and you have many a class?
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2018-01-11T17:52:15Z ebdreger: what might be easier:
2018-01-11T17:52:40Z ebdreger: write your own fu-grovel-whatever::defclass macro that shadows cl:defclass
2018-01-11T17:52:53Z dmiles: combing over the sources of ECL and CLISP i am dont seeing certain builtin classes
2018-01-11T17:53:10Z dmiles: (after all not all of them are defined the same ways)
2018-01-11T17:53:18Z ebdreger: invoke cl:defclass as appropriate, but munch on the form as you see fit from within your local DEFCLASS
2018-01-11T17:55:05Z ebdreger: (errr... dangling modifier in my wording above... "use your local DEFCLASS to munch on the form as you see fit")
2018-01-11T17:55:42Z dmiles: right now there are not classes defined in my lisp impl.. well except for a could few builtins
2018-01-11T17:55:55Z dmiles: couple few*
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2018-01-11T17:56:18Z dmiles: so i am pulling out of other impls .. it looks like cl-annot is sort of helpfull
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2018-01-11T17:56:30Z ebdreger: ahhh
2018-01-11T17:56:39Z ebdreger thought you wanted to examine your own code
2018-01-11T17:56:56Z dmiles: hoping to pull initargs, documentation etc
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2018-01-11T17:58:05Z ebdreger: definitely ignore my prior metaclass suggestion :)
2018-01-11T17:58:19Z ebdreger: ditto my defclass idea
2018-01-11T17:58:57Z dmiles: cl-annot i think almost has pjb's  defclass-form-for-class
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2018-01-11T17:59:26Z dmiles: (thats what i am after at least)
2018-01-11T18:00:15Z dmiles has to go AFK to give one of the kids a ride to school..back in an hour
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2018-01-11T18:09:26Z Xach: oh right!
2018-01-11T18:09:38Z Xach: i found myself wishing for defsystem-form-for-system some time ago
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2018-01-11T18:11:40Z Bike: dmiles: you can use mop accessors to get information directly, rather than reproducing a defclass form.
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2018-01-11T18:21:37Z _death: I think AMOP actually contained an example for printing back defclass forms
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2018-01-11T19:09:43Z dmiles: _death: yeah i figured there would exist such examples
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2018-01-11T19:11:21Z dmiles: Bike: *nod*, yeah i dont need the "original" defclass forms
2018-01-11T19:11:47Z Bike: i mean, you don't need defclass forms at all. if you want, like, the list of valid slot initargs, you can just get that directly.
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2018-01-11T19:12:15Z dmiles: beach: what i meant by "incomplete" are cases the :documentation is gone
2018-01-11T19:13:30Z dmiles: Bike: *nod* thats is exactly what my orignal code did.. but i forgot to glean out initarg and initforms
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2018-01-11T19:13:39Z Bike: well, do that too then
2018-01-11T19:13:44Z Bike: still no need for defclass forms
2018-01-11T19:13:54Z Bike: you'd just be getting information, putting it in a form, and then re parsing the form
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2018-01-11T19:18:12Z ebdreger: dmiles: wb
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2018-01-11T19:21:40Z ebdreger nods at Bike.  Unless dmiles has need for :metaclass and specific :metaclass-option forms, it sounds like a few quick MOP queries can answer the questions.
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2018-01-11T19:32:18Z dmiles: ebdreger: yep tyhat is what i did to generate https://github.com/TeamSPoon/wam_common_lisp/blob/24c112af9edb97c0a5033d35dd369f876725fa9d/prolog/wam_cl/clstructs.pl#L283-L551   (from https://github.com/TeamSPoon/wam_common_lisp/blob/24c112af9edb97c0a5033d35dd369f876725fa9d/t/reference/clisp.info  )
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2018-01-11T19:34:45Z dmiles: which ends up making https://github.com/TeamSPoon/wam_common_lisp/blob/master/prolog/wam_cl/ci.data
2018-01-11T19:35:43Z dmiles: (last file is big)
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2018-01-11T19:43:49Z dmiles: today i am working on grabbing the bare minimum
2018-01-11T19:44:21Z dmiles: which is not SBCL this time:P
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2018-01-11T19:46:14Z dmiles: not that it was too big, i just seek to define what a minimum will be for bootstrapping
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2018-01-11T20:18:44Z dmiles: i am kind of used to it by now, that whatever i am doing is a horrible idea
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2018-01-11T20:28:47Z ebdreger: dmiles: Meh. Sounds like you just want your Lisp environment to be fully reflexive. ;-)
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2018-01-11T20:31:42Z dmiles: that was supposed to be a /msg to friend .. and what is funny is it applies much better for my channel history in #lisp
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2018-01-11T20:34:48Z dmiles: but yeah, i am working on making sure in my impl that whatever datastructures are there that they can be viewed and altered from multiple programing paradymns  (either by prolog predicates/assertions or by MOP)
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2018-01-11T20:37:52Z dmiles: (as in, right now, the class system is based on what the predicates had "asserted" (which created the data at the last link))
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2018-01-11T20:59:28Z jmercouris: Bike: beach said there were some issues with ironclad and you might be able to shed some light on that, do you know anything about that?
2018-01-11T20:59:44Z Bike: "some issues" in what context?
2018-01-11T20:59:59Z jmercouris: I can gist the conversation one moment please
2018-01-11T21:00:29Z jmercouris: Bike: https://gist.github.com/4a487d378efe8e7ae2e42ebfb75fdd4e
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2018-01-11T21:01:17Z Bike: we had some issues with ironclad in clasp, but that's probably not of concern to you.
2018-01-11T21:01:44Z jmercouris: I see, ok
2018-01-11T21:01:47Z jmercouris: Thank you
2018-01-11T21:02:14Z jmercouris: While you are here, do you know what it would take to integrate GPG into something like ironclad?
2018-01-11T21:02:29Z jmercouris: I don't know much about the technology, but I assume it's probably a big project
2018-01-11T21:02:31Z Shinmera: ironclad does some heavy macro optimisation stuff that clasp & cleavir choke on because they're pretty new compilers.
2018-01-11T21:02:57Z Shinmera: Nothing inherently bad about Ironclad itself.
2018-01-11T21:03:25Z Bike: do you mean the actual software gpg, or just whatever it does? i don't think ironclad does foreign calls.
2018-01-11T21:03:31Z jmercouris: Wow, this is a long RFC: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4880
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2018-01-11T21:08:15Z jmercouris: Bike: I mean the actual software, so that pass users could use it
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2018-01-11T21:16:04Z shrdlu68: jmercouris: Almost as long as the TLS 1.2 RFC. Shouldn't be too hard too implement GPG from scratch, though.
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2018-01-11T21:25:28Z mfiano: beach: Hello, do you have a minute free?
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2018-01-11T21:39:29Z jasom: One should also be suspicious of ironclad for online encryption and hashing, since making algorithms with data-independent is hard, and I don't know how much effort was put into it
2018-01-11T21:42:33Z shrdlu68: What do you mean "with data-dependent"?
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2018-01-11T21:44:54Z rme: crypto operations need to take the same time to complete no matter what the input data is.  otherwise information can be leaked via side-channel attacks (cf. spectre)
2018-01-11T21:45:13Z rme: I don't believe ironclad was designed with this in mind.
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2018-01-11T21:47:18Z shrdlu68: rme: Is this a shortcoming with CL, or CL implementations?
2018-01-11T21:48:03Z shrdlu68: i.e does it take special effort to prevent side-channel attacks in CL than in, say, C?
2018-01-11T21:48:23Z Bike: dealing with timing attacks in a world of hardware caches must be hard
2018-01-11T21:48:41Z aeth: Afaik SBCL should be perfectly capable of doing the same crypto that C can do, even with 64-bit integers (put them into arrays).
2018-01-11T21:48:55Z aeth: Obviously it depends on the implementation
2018-01-11T21:49:15Z Bike: did you miss the concern
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2018-01-11T21:50:16Z aeth: Is C unable to handle that issue? Or does garbage collection somehow interfere?
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2018-01-11T21:50:52Z Shinmera: Xach: I've decided to go with V4 after all. Time to write some more libraries!
2018-01-11T21:51:00Z Bike: a lot of things interfere. the compiler, for one
2018-01-11T21:51:25Z Bike: garbage collection would be one with certain algorithms, though it doesn't seem like it would usually be important
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2018-01-11T21:55:38Z aeth: CL does not yet have compilers that do advanced optimizations to the degree of C compilers afaik. A lot of the time people assume optimizations that don't happen, just disassemble with (speed 3) or even disassemble with all the optimizations set in favor of speed over everything else (but safety at 1) to see a lot of optimizations that don't happen
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2018-01-11T21:58:09Z aeth: e.g. this is not optimized to constantly return NIL in any implementation afaik: (defun foo () (declare (optimize (speed 3))) (dotimes (i 100) (+ 1 1)))
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2018-01-11T21:58:39Z shrdlu68: Even in C, it takes special effort to prevent side-channel attacks sometimes. Blinding is one such technique.
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2018-01-11T22:00:45Z shrdlu68: One could say that Ironclad's implementation of RSA is vulnerable to side-channel attacks, but all it takes to mitigate this is implement blinding. Same thing Openssl does: https://wiki.openssl.org/index.php/Manual:RSA_blinding_on(3)
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2018-01-11T22:02:11Z aeth: (what I mean is constantly return NIL while skipping the loop that does nothing, both SBCL and CCL do the loop and they're considered the most optimized compilers)
2018-01-11T22:02:21Z dmiles: aeth: i belive dwim.hu.partial-eval is supposed to do things liek that
2018-01-11T22:03:23Z shrdlu68: I doubt anyone is doing serious crypto in CL anyway, even the few that are are using Openssl bindings.
2018-01-11T22:04:47Z dmiles: aeth: dwim.hu.partial-eval is a lisp to lisp translator
2018-01-11T22:05:05Z aeth: interesting
2018-01-11T22:05:20Z dmiles: its what i been reading my compiler for
2018-01-11T22:05:27Z dmiles: ready-ing
2018-01-11T22:06:48Z Bike: i would guess that most dotimes forms do involve side effects.
2018-01-11T22:07:28Z aeth: Yes, and probably 100% of the non-accidental uses of dotimes that does not fill in the optional return form
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2018-01-11T22:07:34Z aeth: It's like map nil
2018-01-11T22:07:37Z dmiles: heh Bike has a good point, it it should be optiizaed away, the programmer should have not written it
2018-01-11T22:07:46Z dmiles: it it/if it
2018-01-11T22:08:05Z Bike: mainly it just doesn't seem like an important thing to focus effort on.
2018-01-11T22:08:20Z aeth: dmiles: yes, although to be fair, SBCL *does* warn me about "deleting unreachable code" a lot of the time, and with the exception of some local functions (flet or labels) it's always an error and I'm always glad to have been notified
2018-01-11T22:08:36Z aeth: This could simple be yet another case of that, if SBCL did check for that
2018-01-11T22:08:40Z aeth: s/simple/simply/
2018-01-11T22:09:02Z aeth: s/always an error/always my mistake/
2018-01-11T22:09:18Z Bike: the fact that it's unreachable code deletion doesn't mean that it's another case, ie that the compiler would do the same thing either way
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2018-01-11T22:10:07Z aeth: I guess what's different here is that it's reachable, just useless (unless it's being done for timing for some reason... although simply setting speed 0 and debug 3 would probably reenable that if the compiler optimized it away... and why do that for timing?)
2018-01-11T22:10:07Z Bike: on sbcl it does optimize out the addition, so it's just a brief spin
2018-01-11T22:11:42Z aeth: Bike: brief depends on the duration, e.g. change the dotimes to 100000000 and to me it takes 45175.404710144925d0 times as many cycles as a function that just returns NIL
2018-01-11T22:12:20Z Bike: i have basic numeracy, yes
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2018-01-11T22:13:36Z dmiles: (doloop (i 100000000 i) ) just returns 100000000 i assume
2018-01-11T22:13:53Z dmiles: (if aditions is not used)
2018-01-11T22:14:30Z Bike: all i'm saying is that eliminating side-effect-less code is one thing, but eliminating an empty loop is another matter. you'd have to search for basic blocks that immediately reenter themselves based on a condition, determine that the condition can't be affected by other threads etc. it is not really "another case" of other dead code elimination
2018-01-11T22:14:57Z Bike: and, for real code it doesn't seem very useful. it could come up with a dumb code generator, i guess, but then it would probably be able to special-case.
2018-01-11T22:15:10Z aeth: Bike: I was bringing it up as an example of an advanced optimization that people might assume that compilers already do
2018-01-11T22:15:15Z aeth: I'm sorry if I was unclear
2018-01-11T22:15:55Z aeth: and I probably shouldn't have said "simply"
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2018-01-11T22:16:11Z pmc_: Is there a #lisp FAQ?  What are the relative merits of SBCL, CMUCL, ECL and CCL?
2018-01-11T22:16:47Z aeth: I'm not aware of anyone who uses CMUCL. I'd be interested in hearing from people who use CMUCL instead of SBCL.
2018-01-11T22:17:02Z aeth: This channel seems to mostly be SBCL, ECL, and CCL users/developers.
2018-01-11T22:17:43Z aeth: (Sometimes Allegro or LispWorks or CLISP come up, too.)
2018-01-11T22:17:46Z pmc_: oh I see that cliki.net has a chart. cool.
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2018-01-11T22:18:20Z aeth: This? http://www.cliki.net/Common%20Lisp%20implementation
2018-01-11T22:18:29Z aeth: I'm confused to why things are sorted in an arbitrary order there
2018-01-11T22:20:26Z pmc_: yeah, that is the one
2018-01-11T22:21:36Z aeth: The table does match my own experience, though. The only two additional entries I track are Clasp (still incomplete so I understand why it's not in that table) and Mezzano (afaik, that is its own implementation as well as an OS)
2018-01-11T22:22:22Z aeth: The only ones I don't have at least one working copy of are Mezzano, Clasp, and MKCL.
2018-01-11T22:22:31Z pmc_: ok
2018-01-11T22:24:29Z aeth: I use roswell to get access to the most recent versions of ABCL, CCL, CLISP, CMUCL, ECL, and SBCL. (I develop on an older version of SBCL outside of Roswell, and I also have access to several other CLs outside of Roswell.)
2018-01-11T22:24:50Z aeth: I can't get roswell's Clasp to compile and roswell doesn't have mkcl afaik.
2018-01-11T22:25:01Z aeth: https://github.com/roswell/roswell
2018-01-11T22:25:34Z Shinmera: There's also XCL
2018-01-11T22:25:43Z Shinmera: And of course the commercial ones (SCL, ACL, LW)
2018-01-11T22:26:46Z aeth: Commercial implementations are more difficult to decide if they're alive. Allegro and LispWorks are obviously alive. Scieneer is and mocl are probably alive. I think even Genera is "alive" because some entities have support contracts with Symbolics or something? I could be wrong, though.
2018-01-11T22:27:03Z aeth: s/is and/and/
2018-01-11T22:27:38Z aeth: I'm not aware of XCL
2018-01-11T22:27:47Z Shinmera: I never could get it compiled, so
2018-01-11T22:28:19Z aeth: 2010.... http://armedbear.org/
2018-01-11T22:28:30Z Shinmera: Anyway, I'm not surprised Roswell's Clasp script fails. It's probably out of date and even if it weren't, Clasp is kinda difficult to get compiled still.
2018-01-11T22:29:26Z aeth: Shinmera: What I think is happening is that the make file is failing (not surprising; fail, install another dependency, retry is a common workflow) and then all I'm getting is the Lisp backtrace instead of something useful
2018-01-11T22:30:54Z aeth: I primarily am trying to track living implementations for this table: https://gitlab.com/zombie-raptor/zombie-raptor/blob/11f211c812a396e5e05bcd27a900995ddd68c586/INSTALL.md#cl-implementations
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2018-01-11T22:31:46Z aeth: Obviously, the specifics on that table are just me trying to get my engine to work on other implementations. I want to have all relevant implementations as rows, though.
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2018-01-11T22:32:49Z aeth: I cannot get cl-sdl2 to work on ABCL (not surprising), CLISP (not surprising), and CMUCL (fairly surprising). I don't think cl-sdl2 officially lists what it supports or doesn't support, though.
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2018-01-11T22:36:36Z aeth: I will probably put together similar implementation support tables on everything I write. I'm tired of having to go through the ASDF and source files and hoping to find out what something supports.
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2018-01-11T22:46:20Z wladz_: Does anybody use Roswell? I'm trying to figure out how to evaluate an expression from command line arguments
2018-01-11T22:46:31Z wladz_: like: ros '(print "Hello")'
2018-01-11T22:46:54Z Xach: wladz_: My impression is that the main body of people using roswell aren't here, but there are a not-small number of users out there.
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2018-01-11T22:47:11Z White_Flame: you could try ##lisp, as that's lisp in general, not Common Lisp
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2018-01-11T22:47:37Z Xach: White_Flame: roswell is a common lisp implementation manager (i think)
2018-01-11T22:47:49Z White_Flame: oops, my bad
2018-01-11T22:48:07Z White_Flame: can't keep track of all the other non-CLs :)
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2018-01-11T22:48:14Z aeth: I don't know of any advanced uses of Roswell, I mostly use it for "ros use foo && ros emacs &", where I then run tests in SLIME. I think it can run tests in a more automated way, though, so I don't even use Roswell to its full extent for my use case.
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2018-01-11T22:50:25Z jasom: wladz_: it doesn't appear to support that
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2018-01-11T22:50:37Z jasom: wladz_: at least it's not mentioned at all in the readme
2018-01-11T22:51:21Z Shinmera: wladz_: Use the -e flag
2018-01-11T22:51:25Z wladz_: Thanks I'll check it out
2018-01-11T22:51:25Z wladz_: So far the only solution I have to evaluate lisp on the command line is Emacs
2018-01-11T22:51:25Z wladz_: emacsclient --eval '(print "Hello")'
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2018-01-11T22:52:25Z Xach: Shinmera: Interesting backtrace today: http://report.quicklisp.org/2018-01-11/failure-report/qtools.html#qtools-titter
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2018-01-11T22:52:53Z Shinmera: Xach: oh joy
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2018-01-11T22:53:54Z wladz_: Shinmera: Thanks that works
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2018-01-11T22:54:06Z Shinmera: Xach: Ah- I was being a dingus
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2018-01-11T22:57:19Z Xach: #'dingus-emoji?
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2018-01-11T22:58:01Z Shinmera: Xach: Fixed
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2018-01-11T23:00:31Z Xach: Thanks!
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2018-01-11T23:13:40Z bms_: I've set up StumpWM, Emacs, and nEXT-Browser on Arch Linux and I'm loving it. The last piece I need is a Lisp-based IRC client.
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2018-01-11T23:18:13Z Shinmera: Emacs has a couple
2018-01-11T23:18:48Z jasom: wladz_: most lisp implementations have an eval option (--eval on sbcl -e on ccl)
2018-01-11T23:18:56Z Shinmera: Maiden has an example that uses IRC and presents a rather shitty REPL client. https://github.com/Shirakumo/maiden/tree/master/examples/circ
2018-01-11T23:19:23Z Shinmera: And at some point I'll hopefully finally manage to motivate myself enough to rewrite Lionchat to use Maiden and thus be protocol-agnostic.
2018-01-11T23:19:32Z Shinmera: (which means it'll be an IRC client)
2018-01-11T23:21:12Z Shinmera: Alternatively if you're impatient you can write your own. All the pieces are there.
2018-01-11T23:21:23Z bms_: I know about ERC and I think I might switch from Hexchat to that, I was just wondering if anyone knew of others. I found Beirc on Github, but it doesn't like to find my init-file and it breaks easily. Then there's KIRC on Github, which is more recent, but less full-featured.
2018-01-11T23:21:33Z bms_: I was thinking about writing my own.
2018-01-11T23:22:45Z bms_: Also, by less full-featured, I mean completely unsatisfactory. Like, worse than the Mezzano IRC client (which didn't even have /msg functionality until I added it last year).
2018-01-11T23:23:08Z bms_: Of course, the Mezzano IRC Client is still quite a sad case that I need to work on.
2018-01-11T23:23:20Z Shinmera: Well, if you're interested, /I/ would be very interested to find someone else to either change or rewrite Lionchat to Maiden.
2018-01-11T23:23:36Z jasom: I use weechat, which is not lisp-based
2018-01-11T23:23:53Z Shinmera: https://github.com/Shirakumo/lionchat
2018-01-11T23:24:05Z bms_: Shinmera, I'll look into it. Thanks.
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2018-01-11T23:28:34Z Shinmera: Maiden is a bit of a big thing to get into. If you have any questions, I'd be happy to try and address them.
2018-01-11T23:30:01Z bms_: Thank you.
2018-01-11T23:30:17Z Shinmera: For now though I should probably head off to snooze. Good night!
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2018-01-11T23:32:44Z bms_: Goodnight!
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