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2017-08-16T01:37:18Z Fare: I have a bunch of PR with unresponsive maintainers :-(
2017-08-16T01:41:32Z fe[nl]ix: what projects ?
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2017-08-16T01:54:54Z Fare: fe[nl]ix, see github.com/fare-patches/
2017-08-16T01:55:12Z Fare: ignore the nixpkgs and gerbil, gambit
2017-08-16T01:55:20Z Fare: the rest is common lisp
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2017-08-16T02:06:51Z malice: Shouldn't I see all the variables during BREAK?
2017-08-16T02:07:08Z malice: I inserted break after some let, but I can only see one variable of this LET, and there should be three.
2017-08-16T02:07:25Z malice: Is it possible that compiler optimized out these variables and that's why they're missing?
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2017-08-16T02:12:43Z phoe: malice: yes, it is possible.
2017-08-16T02:12:53Z phoe: See https://www.reddit.com/r/Common_Lisp/comments/6kg0uo/good_guy_ccl/
2017-08-16T02:13:57Z phoe: Anyway
2017-08-16T02:14:01Z phoe clears throat
2017-08-16T02:14:04Z phoe: Good morning everyone!
2017-08-16T02:15:31Z malice: g'morning
2017-08-16T02:15:55Z malice: I'm still wondering. After adding log statements some variables appeared, but not all.
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2017-08-16T02:29:25Z phoe: malice: there was that trick some time ago
2017-08-16T02:29:32Z phoe: (setf x x) for each variable you want to see
2017-08-16T02:29:36Z phoe: but I have no idea if it still works
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2017-08-16T02:39:23Z malice: lol
2017-08-16T02:40:08Z malice: (with-sbcl-terrible-debugging (show-variables x))
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2017-08-16T03:00:20Z |3b| just does (break "foo" x y z ...) when i want to see variables in break, works for specials or expressions too :) (hit enter or middle click on "foo" at top of debugger window to see the values in inspector)
2017-08-16T03:03:17Z |3b|: well, usually i just try C-u C-c C-c on the function and try restarting the frame if i'm not doing something where that risks breaking state i want to keep (or repeating external side effects in a bad way)
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2017-08-16T03:37:11Z drmeister: Using Common Lisp (Cando) to design molecules:
2017-08-16T03:37:12Z drmeister: http://i.imgur.com/EUwtTt2.png
2017-08-16T03:37:57Z drmeister: (defmacro := (x y) `(defparameter ,x ,y))   to reduce the horizontal space necessary to defparameter.
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2017-08-16T03:41:15Z phoe: drmeister: but I heard Lisp is dead
2017-08-16T03:41:41Z phoe: I understand nothing from this screenshot, but it does look pretty impressive.
2017-08-16T03:42:13Z drmeister: It's a map of atoms on the top structure to atoms on the bottom.
2017-08-16T03:42:41Z drmeister: I'm putting together a demo
2017-08-16T03:42:46Z phoe: I see. It's a map, so does it mean these parts are connected in reality in atoms denoted by purple lines? What are *design-view* and *cagg*?
2017-08-16T03:43:12Z phoe: Oh wait, the parts on the bottom are identical.
2017-08-16T03:43:54Z phoe: So you're basically telling the reader, "and here are these identical ring structures"?
2017-08-16T03:45:40Z shka: phoe: i guess i'm not the only morning bird
2017-08-16T03:45:52Z shka: phoe: or you just did not sleep yet? :P
2017-08-16T03:46:05Z phoe: I slept, but only a bit.
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2017-08-16T03:58:46Z phoe: I'm off for about a week.
2017-08-16T03:58:49Z phoe: Time to travel.
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2017-08-16T04:03:06Z akkad: cffi is blowing up on this with lw.  Illegal car (OS-UNIX-P) in compound form ((OS-UNIX-P) "o").
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2017-08-16T04:37:08Z drmeister: Huh - as of July 11, 2017 officially only Julia has a jupyter widgets backend.
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2017-08-16T04:37:51Z drmeister: Common Lisp almost has one now - I need to switch to using Bordeaux threads from Clasp's threads to make it general.
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2017-08-16T04:40:06Z drmeister: I heard that at the end of a very looong talk on Jupyter widgets: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWzY2nGfkXk
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2017-08-16T04:42:18Z shka: drmeister: i guess python and R does not count? ;-)
2017-08-16T04:42:53Z shka: oh moment
2017-08-16T04:42:55Z drmeister: It is originally developed in Python - so I didn't count that.
2017-08-16T04:43:00Z drmeister: R has jupyter widgets?
2017-08-16T04:43:08Z shka: uh, actually i don't know
2017-08-16T04:43:15Z shka: i thought it has
2017-08-16T04:43:19Z shka: but not sure now
2017-08-16T04:43:36Z shka: as for python
2017-08-16T04:43:43Z shka: not counting python is a good idea
2017-08-16T04:44:09Z shka: especially if we are not counting python as programming language
2017-08-16T04:46:09Z shka: drmeister: anyway, can i also have link to your awesome, super cool demo?
2017-08-16T04:46:19Z shka: please?
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2017-08-16T04:53:21Z drmeister: Sorry afk for a few min
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2017-08-16T04:57:31Z drmeister: Which demo is that?    There is this:  dockerhub.com/drmeister/cando   - but it's not yet set up as a demo.
2017-08-16T04:57:47Z shka: well, phoe was talking about something
2017-08-16T04:58:02Z drmeister: Meaning - there are no convenient demos installed on it yet.
2017-08-16T04:58:23Z shka: perhaps i had wrong impression
2017-08-16T04:58:30Z drmeister: It does host a jupyter notebook and you can run Common Lisp on it.
2017-08-16T04:58:46Z shka: not right now
2017-08-16T04:58:48Z shka: 404
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2017-08-16T04:59:04Z shka: well
2017-08-16T04:59:19Z shka: anyway
2017-08-16T04:59:43Z shka: can you please, not forget about posting your cool stuff on blog?
2017-08-16T05:00:23Z shka: because the last entry is from 2016 :-)
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2017-08-16T05:18:37Z drmeister: Oh - it's https://hub.docker.com/r/drmeister/cando/
2017-08-16T05:18:53Z drmeister: I shouldn't try to put those together in my head.  They aren't like github.
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2017-08-16T05:19:21Z drmeister: I'm building another one overnight - the demos will be easier to find.
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2017-08-16T05:20:59Z drmeister: beach: I'm thinking more about implementing first class global environments for sandboxing.
2017-08-16T05:22:57Z shka: drmeister: yay!
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2017-08-16T05:23:17Z shka: awesome
2017-08-16T05:23:23Z shka: thanks
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2017-08-16T06:31:06Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-08-16T06:34:20Z shka: beach: good morning beach!
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2017-08-16T06:47:49Z daemoz: morning :)
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2017-08-16T06:59:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: Every time I compile something to be run on another computer, I wish ASDF could statically link C libraries for things like osicat
2017-08-16T07:00:12Z fiddlerwoaroof wishes we could program against a better abstraction layer than CFFI for inter-language communication
2017-08-16T07:00:51Z Shinmera: On SBCL you can statically link libraries.
2017-08-16T07:01:02Z Shinmera: Or with SBCL, rather.
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2017-08-16T07:01:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: Really? Is there a way to get quicklisp to do that automatically?
2017-08-16T07:01:37Z Shinmera: No, because it requires building a new SBCL binary, obviously.
2017-08-16T07:02:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: Ah, I see, I was hoping that there was some way for the dumper to link in the object files
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2017-08-16T07:03:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: Couldn't sbcl do what the linker does on an as-needed basis?
2017-08-16T07:03:45Z Shinmera: Well in theory you could do anything
2017-08-16T07:03:53Z Shinmera: The problem is that it's far from trivial.
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2017-08-16T07:04:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, this is one area I'd like to learn more about
2017-08-16T07:04:51Z Shinmera: Linkers are one of those classic hard problems.
2017-08-16T07:05:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: What makes them difficult?  (I barely know anything about how they work under the hood)
2017-08-16T07:05:44Z Shinmera: Just google around for it. There's a lot of literature out there about it.
2017-08-16T07:05:53Z Shinmera: I don't know how to summarise it.
2017-08-16T07:05:59Z |3b|: save-lisp-and-die only rebuilds the lisp part, it doesn't rebuild the runtime (written in C)
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2017-08-16T07:06:36Z Shinmera: |3b|: I didn't want to say because I'm not sure about it: does it basically just attach a memory block to the existing C binary that is loaded on boot?
2017-08-16T07:06:47Z |3b| isn't even sure C tools could relink an executable
2017-08-16T07:06:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, but I'm talking about doing something to prevent things libraries like osicat from making your dumped image have a runtime dependency on a shared library
2017-08-16T07:07:04Z |3b|: Shinmera: yeah, pretty much
2017-08-16T07:07:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: s/things libraries/libraries/
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2017-08-16T07:07:39Z |3b|: not that i'm 100% sure either, but at least in the 90% range :)
2017-08-16T07:07:39Z Shinmera: Well, again, if you need to deploy, you can set up static linking in the SBCL build.
2017-08-16T07:07:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: It would be nice if you could somehow convince dlopen to treat a bunch of memory as a .so
2017-08-16T07:08:10Z Shinmera: Loading a file really is not the issue of dynamic linking.
2017-08-16T07:08:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: Sure, it's easier just to build on the server, at that rate.
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2017-08-16T07:08:32Z |3b| doesn't think C tools can statically link a .so/dll either :)
2017-08-16T07:08:41Z Shinmera: The issue with dynamic linking and all of that is the version mismatch  possibilities.
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2017-08-16T07:09:22Z |3b|: you could theoretically include the .so in the directory, but then you still need all of its dependencies (possibly even to libc depending on what you build on and care about running on)
2017-08-16T07:09:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: Sure, that's why I'd like (ql:quickload :osicat) to load the contents of the dependent .so files into memory in such a way that it can find them again when the image is run
2017-08-16T07:10:02Z Shinmera: For the C libraries I have in Quicklisp, I always ship prebuilt binaries and try to minimise dependencies as much as possible.
2017-08-16T07:10:05Z |3b|: probably easier to convince people to give you build scripts for their package manager of choice to include a dep on the shared library
2017-08-16T07:10:11Z Shinmera: And then I just pray to god that it works on most systems.
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2017-08-16T07:10:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: Perhaps, one way might be to bundle the libraries as constants and then to "unpack" them to a well-known location on first run
2017-08-16T07:10:53Z Shinmera: fiddlerwoaroof: If deployment of .so s is your issue, just use something like the Deploy library.
2017-08-16T07:11:38Z |3b|: including libs (particularly in memory as opposed to just in dir with executable) will annoy people when you include a version with security vulnerabilities (or other bugs) that are fixed upstream in the lib but not in your copy
2017-08-16T07:12:33Z Shinmera: I find having to dig for the library and installing the required version annoys a lot more people than the problem you outlined.
2017-08-16T07:12:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, but that's one of the well-known trade offs between static-like linking and dynamic linking
2017-08-16T07:12:45Z |3b|: there are various installers outside normal distro package managers that try to deal with libraries etc
2017-08-16T07:13:10Z |3b|: maybe one of those would help, hopefully without annoying your users too much when you don't pick the one they like :)
2017-08-16T07:13:42Z Shinmera: If someone really cares about security / being up to date, they can just remove or replace the included .so file.
2017-08-16T07:14:07Z |3b|: yeah, not quite as bad for separate .so
2017-08-16T07:14:17Z Shinmera: Which is something they'd probably know how to do, whereas someone uninitiated knowing to install the correct library and how is much less likely.
2017-08-16T07:15:22Z Shinmera: Anything to do with deployment is such a pain in the ass I sometimes wish I hadn't gotten into software at all.
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2017-08-16T07:16:21Z beach: It is not too late to get out.
2017-08-16T07:16:38Z |3b|: but can you find something else without comparable annoyances? :)
2017-08-16T07:16:55Z Shinmera: Nothing that I've tried so far.
2017-08-16T07:17:01Z beach: Good question.
2017-08-16T07:17:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: :)
2017-08-16T07:18:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: My common lisp deployment problems are nothing compared to the deployment issues of the gigantic Java/Scala/Groovy/etc. code base I deal with at work
2017-08-16T07:20:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: One thing I've learned about large software projects is that half-completed attempts to improve code quality are worse than useless
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2017-08-16T07:28:21Z beach: How can that be?
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2017-08-16T07:30:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: Because then someone else comes along behind you trying to get something done, they have to think about both your new way and the old way
2017-08-16T07:30:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: This is mostly an issue when you have a half-finished architecture change or other wide-reaching changes
2017-08-16T07:30:55Z beach: I see.
2017-08-16T07:31:28Z Posterdati: hi
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2017-08-16T07:34:09Z kami: Good morning
2017-08-16T07:37:02Z Arnot: Hi kami
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2017-08-16T07:46:11Z beach: Arnot: Are you new here?  I don't recognize your nick.
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2017-08-16T07:51:10Z Arnot: beach, yeah I mostly just read this channel a bit
2017-08-16T07:51:14Z Arnot: not very active
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2017-08-16T07:55:32Z beach: OK, welcome then.  Do you use Common Lisp?
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2017-08-16T07:56:50Z Arnot: Thanks! I've used it for a bit, mostly just for working through Practical Common Lisp to be honest
2017-08-16T07:57:22Z Arnot: Really like it so far, and it's a good escape from my java-focussed job :)
2017-08-16T07:59:43Z beach: I can see that.
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2017-08-16T08:01:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: axion: your blog doesn't have a feed ...
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2017-08-16T08:01:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: Anyways, I'm done for the night
2017-08-16T08:01:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: Have fun everyone
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2017-08-16T08:49:31Z schweers: has anyone here ever used sly?
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2017-08-16T09:03:17Z loke: schweers: Yes. I didn't like it.
2017-08-16T09:04:18Z schweers: why?
2017-08-16T09:04:38Z schweers: I just realized it exsist, so I know next to nothing about it, hence my question
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2017-08-16T09:10:46Z Posterdati: phoe: added a pull request
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2017-08-16T09:11:00Z Posterdati: phoe: for iolib and openbsd
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2017-08-16T11:23:21Z farthVader91: erm
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2017-08-16T12:25:13Z zulu_inuoe_: 3b: this is way late in the conversation, as far as including the shared library in the image, I played around with that and got the file saved as a lisp vector, then allocated room for it and did all the memory loading steps for it
2017-08-16T12:28:57Z zulu_inuoe_: It was a fun experiment, but I think at the end of the day I think that any time you're distributing a software package of any significant importance, shared libraries etc are the least of your worries, especially if you're willing/able to package them together with your own package
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2017-08-16T12:40:33Z thetabit: Good morning, just wanted to ask if are any libraries for working with creating linux daemons?
2017-08-16T12:40:49Z thetabit: for Common Lisp that is
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2017-08-16T12:42:01Z antoszka: thetabit: Creating linux daemons is not really different from launching any other program.
2017-08-16T12:42:15Z jackdaniel: thetabit: writing daemon definition is something you do for your init script system
2017-08-16T12:42:39Z antoszka: thetabit: If you need the daemon to listen on TCP sockets, yes, there are libraries going to help you with that.
2017-08-16T12:42:53Z antoszka: thetabit: If you need a nice thread abstration – just as well.
2017-08-16T12:42:54Z jackdaniel: CL allows you to produce binaries, you may write service definition file (be it systemd's service, or initd shell script) and put it in appropriate directory
2017-08-16T12:43:00Z antoszka: Yep.
2017-08-16T12:43:19Z thetabit: Hmm, okay
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2017-08-16T12:43:54Z jackdaniel: poor man's daemon is running repl in tmux session and starting whatever you like there
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2017-08-16T12:44:39Z antoszka: That'd be good for quick development and testing.
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2017-08-16T12:46:35Z antoszka: And yeah, proper integration with your init system later on would be recommended.
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2017-08-16T12:53:39Z dlowe: I found using systemd with sbcl to be a surprisingly easy task.
2017-08-16T12:54:19Z dlowe: and you can open a swank port to connect while developing
2017-08-16T12:54:26Z jackdaniel: systemd service files are easy to write, I can confirm that
2017-08-16T12:54:38Z antoszka: dlowe: nice, got it documented/annotated somewhere?
2017-08-16T12:55:53Z dlowe: hm. no.
2017-08-16T12:56:04Z dlowe: I guess I should start blogging again or something.
2017-08-16T12:56:54Z zulu_inuoe_: swank saves lives
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2017-08-16T12:58:28Z schweers: I have a question regarding packages.  I am a little fed up with having to include a certain set of dependencies into every package I create.  such as metabang-bind and iterate.  I wanted to create a "base" package which depends on said packages and exports all symbols exported from any of its dependencies and of course from "COMMON-LISP".  This is the package I created: http://paste.lisp.org/display/353574
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2017-08-16T12:59:36Z jackdaniel waits impatiently for the question :-)
2017-08-16T12:59:46Z schweers: when I try to quickload another package which depends on it, and :USEes it (and nothing else, not even :CL) I get an error claiming that <PACKAGENAME>::NIL is not defined
2017-08-16T12:59:55Z schweers: sorry, unbound
2017-08-16T12:59:59Z schweers: any ideas?
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2017-08-16T13:02:51Z zulu_inuoe_: My immediate guess would be you need an eval-when to make sure that export loop runs at the right time
2017-08-16T13:03:30Z schweers: oh, right.  sounds like a good guess
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2017-08-16T13:05:02Z schweers: I added (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) ...) around the loop, didn’t help.  Even restarted the lisp process
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2017-08-16T13:07:09Z Bike: well, forget about compile time side effects for a minutes. if you just load the code one form at a time, does the package export everything it's supposed to?
2017-08-16T13:07:18Z jackdaniel: export takes designator for a list of symbols
2017-08-16T13:07:20Z jackdaniel: nil is an empty list
2017-08-16T13:07:30Z zulu_inuoe: !
2017-08-16T13:07:30Z jackdaniel: (export NIL package) ; will export nothing
2017-08-16T13:07:35Z schweers: oh
2017-08-16T13:07:38Z jackdaniel: (export '(NIL) package) will export NIL
2017-08-16T13:07:40Z zulu_inuoe: Hahahaha. That's a nice catch
2017-08-16T13:07:53Z jackdaniel: thanks :)
2017-08-16T13:08:19Z schweers: so (export (list ext) ...) instead of (export ext ...) should do the trick?
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2017-08-16T13:08:38Z Bike: wow, that's a trick
2017-08-16T13:08:41Z schweers: yeah! that did it!
2017-08-16T13:08:52Z schweers: thanks, it was a great catch
2017-08-16T13:08:58Z jackdaniel: \o/
2017-08-16T13:09:17Z schweers praises jackdaniel for his all-seeing eyes!
2017-08-16T13:10:32Z zulu_inuoe: Is that... praise the sun?
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2017-08-16T13:11:09Z zulu_inuoe: Please tell me there's another lisper that's into Dark Souls. I'd have found my soul mate then
2017-08-16T13:11:30Z schweers: I had to google the phrase and landed on dark souls sites xD
2017-08-16T13:11:38Z jackdaniel: quick recipe: grab dark souls gamer and teach him lisp
2017-08-16T13:11:51Z Shinmera: Ain't like dark souls is a niche game.
2017-08-16T13:11:54Z schweers: yeah, right, because that always goes well
2017-08-16T13:12:34Z zulu_inuoe: Yeah it'd be finding a niche person (who may not even be a programmer) and teaching them lisp. That's sure to work great
2017-08-16T13:13:14Z schweers: zulu_inuoe: you might have more luck with non-programmers.  they have not yet been conditioned to believe that lisp is evil
2017-08-16T13:13:14Z uint: a lisp crash course as the first date? hmm
2017-08-16T13:13:49Z schweers: “say, how do you feel towards parentheses?”
2017-08-16T13:13:59Z zulu_inuoe: "LET me buy you a drink"
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2017-08-16T13:14:16Z schweers: let me SIGNAL the waiter
2017-08-16T13:15:29Z jackdaniel: LET me HANDLE that CASE? huh, this channel gets creepy, I'll be back ;)
2017-08-16T13:15:35Z schweers: lol
2017-08-16T13:16:08Z dlowe: Quote: It was Bernie Greenberg, who discovered that it was. He wrote a version of Emacs in Multics MacLisp, and he wrote his commands in MacLisp in a straightforward fashion. The editor itself was written entirely in Lisp. Multics Emacs proved to be a great success  programming new editing commands was so convenient that even the secretaries in his office started learning how to use it. They used a manual someone had written which showed how to extend Em
2017-08-16T13:16:19Z schweers: I recently stumbled across the claim that every site is a dating site if you’re creepy enough ;)
2017-08-16T13:16:35Z dlowe: haha
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2017-08-16T13:16:54Z schweers: those must have been the golden days of our trade
2017-08-16T13:17:59Z zulu_inuoe: schweers: It's actually just interfacing with people, I think. My experience has been that dating sites are some of the worst places to find people to date. More effective to join a group and just mingle naturally
2017-08-16T13:18:05Z dlowe: as much as I love that anecdote, there should be a disclaimer: "These secretaries were MIT secretaries"
2017-08-16T13:18:47Z schweers: zulu_inuoe: people seem to often use such sites with the wrong expectations, but that wasn’t my point.  I was just joking a little.
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2017-08-16T13:19:20Z zulu_inuoe: Oh yeah absolutely
2017-08-16T13:22:36Z schweers: dlowe: do you think that MIT only hired especially smart secretaries?
2017-08-16T13:24:14Z dlowe: schweers: I don't know how "especially smart" you are saying, but I'm saying that the sample is probably skewed towards high capacity to deal with 1970s computers
2017-08-16T13:24:42Z schweers: hm.  dunno
2017-08-16T13:25:25Z schweers: don’t know that much about MIT, so I don’t know how their secretaries are.  or were.  I’m too young for such stories ;)
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2017-08-16T15:04:51Z oleo: evening
2017-08-16T15:05:03Z beach: Hello oleo.
2017-08-16T15:05:08Z oleo: hello beach :)
2017-08-16T15:05:14Z oleo: how is it going ?
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2017-08-16T15:05:30Z beach: Fine.  How about yourself?
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2017-08-16T15:05:51Z oleo: fine too, I'm getting better health wise too :)
2017-08-16T15:06:16Z beach: Great!
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2017-08-16T15:06:21Z oleo: only little setbacks left, from time to time but overall i'm really getting better
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2017-08-16T15:06:26Z oleo: ya
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2017-08-16T15:35:02Z thetabit: How do I format a number as a string and if the number is less than 10 place a zero on the front. I am trying to print datetime so that it will be compliant with mysql datetime
2017-08-16T15:35:14Z thetabit: I am reading PCL right now about format recipes
2017-08-16T15:35:32Z thetabit: but not sure how to put it together
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2017-08-16T15:37:50Z thetabit: I've got something like (format nil "~[00~;01~;02~;03~;04~;05~;06~;07~;08~;09~]" <input>)
2017-08-16T15:37:50Z Shinmera: ~2,'0d
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2017-08-16T15:42:24Z thetabit: lol
2017-08-16T15:42:27Z thetabit: that was easy
2017-08-16T15:42:29Z thetabit: thanks
2017-08-16T15:43:01Z dlowe: thetabit: you might want to check out local-time which has formatting for stuff just like this
2017-08-16T15:43:39Z thetabit: I did see that package
2017-08-16T15:44:02Z thetabit: I'm just playing around for now getting a feel for how it all works :)
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2017-08-16T16:16:53Z ebrasca: phoe: hi
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2017-08-16T16:39:14Z jasom: is there a version of ASDF that has a package named "ASDF/PACKAGE"?
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2017-08-16T16:43:52Z Shinmera: There's ASDF/PACKAGE-INFERRED-SYSTEM
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2017-08-16T16:57:24Z Fare: jasom: all of them, since ASDF 2.27 (2013)
2017-08-16T16:57:34Z Fare: it's the old name of UIOP/PACKAGE
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2017-08-16T16:58:31Z Fare: jasom: ok, so between 2013 and early 2017 --- I removed the name recently. Is anyone using it directly?
2017-08-16T16:58:38Z Fare: instead of via UIOP?
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2017-08-16T17:53:11Z _user: hello everyone, I'm looking for a good reccomendation for a unit test framework
2017-08-16T17:53:18Z _user: I see a lot of options online and am a bit overwhelmed
2017-08-16T17:53:42Z _user: one of them that looks pretty good to me is this one: https://github.com/fukamachi/prove
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2017-08-16T17:56:33Z rpg: _user: We have used FiveAM happily.
2017-08-16T17:56:49Z rpg: I also hear good things about Fiasco, but have no personal experience.
2017-08-16T17:57:00Z _user: I see a lot of reccomendations for FiveAm as well, but I haven't seen active dev on it
2017-08-16T17:57:54Z rpg: _user: I thought it had been recently overhauled to remove its ancient arnesi dependency.  But TBH, I haven't been tracking it that carefully.
2017-08-16T17:58:25Z _user: rpg: interesting, thank you for the feedback though, Fiasco looks promising as well
2017-08-16T17:59:00Z rpg: For reasons of stability, we use a local copy, and haven't had much time to pull changes from upstream.  Which is actually a good sign that it isn't broken!
2017-08-16T17:59:22Z dlowe: My favorite thus far is Stefil
2017-08-16T17:59:39Z rpg: I would avoid RT, which is interesting, but crude (e.g., doesn't take well to multiple bits of testable software sharing the same image).
2017-08-16T18:00:06Z _user: yeah, I was going to avoid RT, based on your feedback I'm now considering prove/fiasco
2017-08-16T18:00:31Z rpg: we also have a "FiveAM ASDF" system that provides the ability to use 5AM to supply the TEST-OP for ASDF systems.
2017-08-16T18:05:34Z Shinmera: _user: There's also this. https://shinmera.github.io/parachute/
2017-08-16T18:07:52Z _user: Shinmera: nice work! looks pretty cool
2017-08-16T18:08:27Z _user: Shinmera: aren't you also the author of some common lisp web framework as well?
2017-08-16T18:08:36Z Shinmera: Radiance, yes.
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2017-08-16T18:08:49Z _user: ah yes, that looked very cool when I saw it
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2017-08-16T18:08:54Z rpg: Indeed!  One question: do you have a notion of nesting (test suites in the 5AM jargon)?
2017-08-16T18:08:55Z Shinmera: Glad to hear!
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2017-08-16T18:09:35Z Shinmera: rpg: You can do (define-test foo (define-test bar)) which is the same as (define-test foo) (define-test bar :parent foo)
2017-08-16T18:09:52Z rpg: Shinmera: ah, neat!
2017-08-16T18:09:59Z Shinmera: rpg: I implemented the 5Am compat layer so I should know what it means exactly in terms of 5Am, but I don't anymore.
2017-08-16T18:10:05Z jasom: minion: memo for Fare: quux-hunchentoot uses asdf/package and it appears to still be present in the most recent QL version
2017-08-16T18:10:05Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Fare when he/she/it next speaks.
2017-08-16T18:10:32Z rpg: PS one suggestion: for ASDF I also added a test count, so that you can check and make sure that the  expected number of checks is run.  After being burned by that before.
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2017-08-16T18:11:09Z rpg: :-(  have to leave this interesting discussion because I'm getting temporarily evicted from my office by cleaners....
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2017-08-16T18:20:08Z ebrasca: phoe: hi
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2017-08-16T18:24:09Z jasom: in doing ql2nix I have come up with a number of patches for various projects; it will be interesting to see if any of them are accepted upstream
2017-08-16T18:24:23Z Shinmera: jasom: Anything for me?
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2017-08-16T18:26:36Z jasom: Shinmera: I don't think so; the list so far (I'm about 70% of the way through all systems in QL) is here: http://paste.lisp.org/+7KTZ
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2017-08-16T18:27:11Z Shinmera: 3d-vectors is mine :(
2017-08-16T18:27:17Z jasom: it's mostly projects that write out to the source-directory at load-time
2017-08-16T18:27:30Z Shinmera: I... don't think 3d-vectors does anything like that
2017-08-16T18:27:39Z jasom: which isn't *wrong* but is also usually unnecessary since asdf has an output directory
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2017-08-16T18:28:18Z Shinmera: In fact I don't see anything special whatsoever about the 3d-vectors ASD
2017-08-16T18:28:20Z jasom: oh, the other mistake is an (in-package #:cl-user) which breaks ASDF bundling
2017-08-16T18:28:24Z jasom: in the .asd file
2017-08-16T18:28:40Z Shinmera: Ah. I think I have that in most of my projects.
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2017-08-16T18:28:46Z jasom: which is what 3d-vectors does.
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2017-08-16T18:29:30Z Shinmera sighs
2017-08-16T18:29:35Z Shinmera: Time to go through all my projects
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2017-08-16T18:30:29Z jasom: IIRC it's something like load-asd sets up a specific package for .asd files to be executed in and then the various fancy features added recently can be confused by it.  This is all stuff I only slighty understood 6 months ago and have now forgotten, so may be 100% wrong now.
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2017-08-16T18:32:09Z Bike: so asdf-user would also be wrong?
2017-08-16T18:32:22Z Shinmera: Time to go through like 270 ASD files.
2017-08-16T18:34:05Z Fare: asdf-user uses asdf and uiop
2017-08-16T18:34:06Z minion: Fare, memo from jasom: quux-hunchentoot uses asdf/package and it appears to still be present in the most recent QL version
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2017-08-16T18:34:21Z Fare: I'll fix quux-hunchentoot. Oops.
2017-08-16T18:34:51Z axion: Why is that bad?
2017-08-16T18:35:01Z axion: (in-package #:cl-user) that is
2017-08-16T18:35:35Z Shinmera: Aight, so, yeah, every one of my asd files has the in-package
2017-08-16T18:35:47Z Shinmera: I guess I'll have a high commit count today
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2017-08-16T18:38:02Z Fare: fixed
2017-08-16T18:38:10Z Bike: i mean, does in-package asdf-user break bundling or whatever
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2017-08-16T18:42:47Z Fare: asdf-user is better defined and more portable than cl-user
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2017-08-16T18:43:10Z Fare: on the other hand, it kind of does evolve faster.
2017-08-16T18:43:49Z Bike: based on what jasom said the actual package used isn't the issue?
2017-08-16T18:43:58Z Fare: Shinmera: in any case, .asd files are loaded from package asdf-user.
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2017-08-16T18:45:31Z Shinmera: Sure, it's not like I usually do much in the ASD file anyway.
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2017-08-16T18:45:48Z Shinmera: I just had it in my template, so it's in pretty much every single ASD I've ever written
2017-08-16T18:47:29Z jasom: Shinmera: it's very nearly a non-problem; I think I can handle it now with ql2nix (bundling was broken on enough packages that now I fall back to a more traditional load structure).
2017-08-16T18:47:43Z Shinmera: I'm already in the process of fixing it so
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2017-08-16T18:48:08Z jasom: s/packages/systems
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2017-08-16T18:50:32Z jasom: however the architecture for ql2nix that was 90% complete when I stopped working on it last fall appears to be a good choice; There is one nix package for each "project" (I think that's the term quicklisp uses for a single source tarball) that just installs the source, and then each ASDF system gets its own nix package, which depends on the project package (and possibly other things).
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2017-08-16T19:31:18Z Shinmera: 108 commits! Wow! I sure must have been productive today.
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2017-08-16T19:38:28Z jasom: :)
2017-08-16T19:38:33Z jasom: -108 lines of code?
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2017-08-16T19:39:09Z Shinmera: There was some other stuff, but pretty much
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2017-08-16T19:40:07Z Shinmera: Did some work on this too https://filebox.tymoon.eu//file/TVRRd05BPT0=
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2017-08-16T19:42:25Z jasom: new gui library?
2017-08-16T19:42:40Z Shinmera: Yeah, GL UI stuff for my game engine
2017-08-16T19:43:20Z Shinmera: I realised that i need to go back and rework some lower systems though, so I've been kinda stuck on that and progress is painfully slow
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2017-08-16T20:05:20Z copec: This is what I have completed of my first real CL program: http://paste.lisp.org/display/353593
2017-08-16T20:05:46Z copec: I would appreciate any feedback and/or shooting down of things that anyone could offer.
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2017-08-16T20:06:51Z Shinmera: copec: Usage of capitalisation and underscores in names is usually frowned upon.
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2017-08-16T20:07:55Z Shinmera: Not to mention things like |NFA+begin+A-in+A-out+B-in+B-out+end|
2017-08-16T20:10:28Z copec: I know I could have just kept lexically binding the same names over, I was trying to make it readable for when I come back to it at some arbitrary future date
2017-08-16T20:11:04Z Shinmera: If you're going to go ahead and use ||, why use + instead of spaces?
2017-08-16T20:11:30Z copec: It is the NFA with the "begin" state pushed on/in it
2017-08-16T20:11:35Z Shinmera: As for making it more readable, the nesting of m-v-b/push-fragment screams for a macro.
2017-08-16T20:12:19Z jackdaniel: I scream, you scream, we all scream for an abstraction cream.
2017-08-16T20:12:35Z copec: My goal is to go back after I completed a useful whole and then abstract with macros
2017-08-16T20:12:43Z copec: since I haven't really messed around making macros yet
2017-08-16T20:12:47Z pillton: Are the return values of COMPILE supposed to be affected by WITH-COMPILATION-UNIT?
2017-08-16T20:13:28Z pillton: clhs compile
2017-08-16T20:13:28Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_cmp.htm
2017-08-16T20:13:56Z pillton: The CLHS entry for COMPILE says "is false if no conditions of type error or warning were detected by the compiler, and true otherwise."
2017-08-16T20:14:12Z pillton: clhs 3.2.5
2017-08-16T20:14:13Z specbot: Exceptional Situations in the Compiler: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_be.htm
2017-08-16T20:14:23Z pillton: But CLHS 3.2.5 says "Both compile and compile-file return three values, the second two indicating whether the source code being compiled contained errors and whether style warnings were issued."
2017-08-16T20:15:00Z copec: thanks Shinmera
2017-08-16T20:16:03Z Shinmera: copec: Anyway, if you really want the plus in the names, you still don't need to use ||. nfa+begin+a-in+a-out is a valid variable name.
2017-08-16T20:17:03Z copec: yeah, that came about from me experimenting with reading it when I wasn't in "the mode"
2017-08-16T20:17:06Z Shinmera: I'm too tired to give a more in-depth review of your code, so that's all the advice I can give. Sorry.
2017-08-16T20:17:07Z copec: heh
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2017-08-16T20:19:24Z copec: FWIW I used caps to emphasize acronyms, Sets, and Capital Greek letters, with that other ugly symbol |NFA+begin+A-in+A-out+B-in+B-out+end| to help me keep track of where I was at when I was writing it.
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2017-08-16T20:20:58Z Shinmera: To my eyes it's more distracting than helpful, but that might just be me.
2017-08-16T20:22:05Z copec: If I ever want to write code for more than just myself then I'll defer to your experience
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2017-08-16T23:21:02Z White_Flame: if I load stuff through quicklisp, save an image, and run that image on another machine, will quicklisp have problems between the homedir being "/home/user1" on the first box, and "/home/user2" ont he second?
2017-08-16T23:21:26Z White_Flame: specifically, with intent to load new quicklisp systems after the image has been saved & moved
2017-08-16T23:22:16Z White_Flame: application server platform situation, installed via executable binary image
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