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2017-08-14T00:01:17Z yegortimoshenko: does uiop have a function for creating a (symbolic) link?
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2017-08-14T00:13:05Z pjb: yegortimoshenko: try: (apropos "LINK" "UIOP")
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2017-08-14T00:14:47Z yegortimoshenko: pjb: only uiop/filesystem:resolve-symlinks, unfortunately. what does one use to create a symlink, osicat?
2017-08-14T00:15:01Z pjb: yes, or some other POSIX API library.
2017-08-14T00:15:40Z pjb: (apropos "LINK" "OSICAT")
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2017-08-14T00:16:53Z yegortimoshenko: they do have make-link, it's just some stuff is absent from osicat and some stuff is absent from uiop...
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2017-08-14T02:22:06Z whoman: how do i make roswell use my existing sbcl (from git) ?
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2017-08-14T02:22:38Z whoman: "ros use sbcl/system" as recommended, still downloads a new copy of sbcl and quicklisp, which i do not need or want
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2017-08-14T02:51:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: From what I gather, the whole point of ros is to allow it to take care of such things.
2017-08-14T02:51:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: It works a bit like the various sandbox development environments for other langages (virtualenv, stack, etc.)
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2017-08-14T03:22:37Z whoman: fiddlerwoaroof, hmm, yeah.
2017-08-14T03:22:53Z whoman: ive installed roswell, cant get it to use my existing lisp implementation
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2017-08-14T04:49:52Z anticrisis: whoman: you've tried adding a symlink to your implementation's installation directory in ~/.roswell/impls/...?
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2017-08-14T04:53:20Z whoman: anticrisis, i will right now =)
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2017-08-14T05:21:23Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-08-14T05:21:39Z muzik: morning!
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2017-08-14T05:48:20Z phoe: Morning!
2017-08-14T05:49:03Z beach: Hello phoe.
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2017-08-14T05:49:55Z muzik: oh hay!
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2017-08-14T06:00:16Z axion: muzik: Are you new here?
2017-08-14T06:00:31Z muzik: yepper
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2017-08-14T06:08:49Z muzik: i changed to emacs from vi about a year ago, and thought the lisp channel might be interesting enough for me to follow :)
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2017-08-14T06:14:51Z beach: muzik: Notice, though, that this channel is dedicated to Common Lisp.
2017-08-14T06:16:30Z muzik: i understand. Emacs is elisp
2017-08-14T06:16:35Z muzik: i am curious none the less :)
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2017-08-14T06:58:24Z whoman: yes..emacs *is* elisp..
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2017-08-14T08:03:12Z beach: whoman: Is Emacs Lisp moving in the direction of Common Lisp?  And, what is the official FSF opinion about making Emacs Lisp more like Common Lisp?
2017-08-14T08:04:17Z whoman: feature parity gap is closing, at the least
2017-08-14T08:04:46Z axion: elisp would be halfway bearable with namespaces
2017-08-14T08:05:00Z beach: whoman: OK, thanks.
2017-08-14T08:05:56Z whoman: especially good news for important things. like ffi (dynamic modules), threading, web server, more realistic record types, lexical scope, and various small bits
2017-08-14T08:06:09Z whoman: oh yeah, namespaces... thats a big one
2017-08-14T08:06:43Z beach: I have told this story before, but it might be worth repeating in this context.  When RMS announced GNU Emacs (1983 was it?), I answered his email and said I think it was the wrong way to do it, and it would be better to first write a good Lisp system and then to implement Emacs in that Lisp system.  He answered "Sounds good.  Let me know when you have implemented it."
2017-08-14T08:06:44Z jackdaniel: aren't they graviting towards adopting guile and maintaining elisp for already written emacs software?
2017-08-14T08:07:02Z Shinmera: Wasn't it the case that RMS didn't want packages in it and that being the primary reason elisp still doesn't have them even now?
2017-08-14T08:07:23Z beach: jackdaniel: That was the reason for my question.
2017-08-14T08:08:37Z whoman: beach, reminds me of how GNU project began, read this morning; 198..7? "first we should make a kernel.." and then linux 1991
2017-08-14T08:09:05Z whoman: there is an elisp implementation in guile, but guile emacs development has stalled as far as i know (checked yesterday)
2017-08-14T08:09:25Z whoman: rust emacs (rusty macs) is progressing steadily however
2017-08-14T08:09:33Z jackdaniel: only thing I can say about "old school elisp" without CL layers is that dynamic scope is very tricky to get it right. I'm fixing bug in slime related to it
2017-08-14T08:10:40Z beach: whoman: Who said they should start making a kernel?  As I recall, when GNU started (around 1983), RMS explicitly started with everything else, like Emacs, GDB, GCC, GAS, etc.
2017-08-14T08:11:33Z dim: what they did is still impressive to this day
2017-08-14T08:11:43Z whoman: beach, yeah, sorry; it was slightly reversed situation - they began to make the tools to write a kernel with
2017-08-14T08:11:56Z dim: but elisp... I agree with beach that having a proper lisp implementation would have been nice
2017-08-14T08:13:24Z whoman: elisp is quite nice
2017-08-14T08:13:49Z whoman: well, i like it a lot. i should like to test some performance on simple things versus sbcl and rust emacs, though
2017-08-14T08:13:58Z beach: dim: Slightly off-topic, but what impresses me the most is that RMS was able to choose to clone a system (Unix) that he knew was worse than other systems he knew (Lisp machine OSes) in order to get as many people as possible to help with the project.  In his place, I would have been unable to do that, and I would thus have failed.
2017-08-14T08:14:06Z whoman: i cant find much else of what elisp is missing other than namespaces
2017-08-14T08:14:27Z beach: Does it have generic functions and classes?
2017-08-14T08:14:33Z whoman: hippies became hackers
2017-08-14T08:14:49Z Shinmera: beach: It has advice, at least. No CLOS, if I remember correctly.
2017-08-14T08:14:52Z whoman: nnnn... yes doesnt it? eieio ? hmm.
2017-08-14T08:16:07Z whoman: https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/eieio/CLOS-compatibility.html#CLOS-compatibility
2017-08-14T08:16:40Z beach: Nice.
2017-08-14T08:17:26Z whoman: hm, its missing a lot less features from CLOS than i remember
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2017-08-14T08:18:46Z Shinmera: From the wish list: "Method dispatch for multiple argument typing."
2017-08-14T08:18:56Z Shinmera: Does that mean it doesn't have multiple dispatch?
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2017-08-14T08:23:47Z schweers: Shinmera: it now has multiple dispatch, but it’s a little tricky for list based types, if I recall correctly
2017-08-14T08:24:07Z Shinmera: "list based types"?
2017-08-14T08:24:16Z schweers: but it’s a quite new feature.  also as far as I know EIEIO is not fully compatble with CLOS, let alone MOP
2017-08-14T08:24:27Z schweers: err, lists and conses
2017-08-14T08:24:40Z schweers: hm, how do I put this?
2017-08-14T08:24:53Z Shinmera: So does eieio dispatch on types rather than classes?
2017-08-14T08:25:08Z schweers: ah, I think one cannot dispatch on functions, as they are just lists which happen to have a particular structure
2017-08-14T08:25:12Z dim: beach: true that... and to this day I can see that I still failed to attract any pgloader contributor because of choosing CL, so I guess I see what you mean
2017-08-14T08:25:13Z schweers: at least is was that way
2017-08-14T08:25:21Z schweers: dunno if they changed that
2017-08-14T08:25:41Z schweers: Shinmera: I’m not really sure how emacs handles types/classes
2017-08-14T08:26:24Z jackdaniel: dim: it might be that it's just hard to find FOSS contributors
2017-08-14T08:26:30Z beach: dim: Oh, I thought pgloader was specifically meant for Common Lisp.  I guess I haven't followed the purpose of your project.  Sorry!
2017-08-14T08:26:33Z jackdaniel: minority of programmers do free labor outside their personal projects
2017-08-14T08:26:38Z schweers: multimethods are implemented in pure elisp, at least I think they are
2017-08-14T08:27:02Z Shinmera: What jackdaniel said
2017-08-14T08:27:27Z Shinmera: And a lot of programmers don't program outside of their work too.
2017-08-14T08:27:28Z dim: beach: no worries. the purpose is loading data into PostgreSQL, and now also to migrate whole data set from another RDBMS to PostgreSQL, with MySQL and SQLite and MS SQL already supported, and Sybase and Oracle to come apparently
2017-08-14T08:27:44Z beach: I see.
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2017-08-14T08:28:21Z dim: it makes pgloader somewhat different from lots of CL code talked about in here, in that its typical user doesn't care about CL and just uses the binary image shipped, and seldom build it locally
2017-08-14T08:28:39Z dim: jackdaniel: sure, might be that
2017-08-14T08:29:30Z dim: but really you don't get to use pgloader on a side personnal project, mostly, it's all enterprise time, so I would hope people can spend some time contributing to it to fix their immediate problem
2017-08-14T08:29:39Z dim: anyway
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2017-08-14T08:42:00Z beach: I started a SICL FAQ as shka and vtomole suggested: https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL/blob/master/FAQ.text
2017-08-14T08:42:12Z beach: I don't think it will help much, but hey.  It can't hurt.
2017-08-14T08:42:45Z beach: So if anyone has a question, I'll consider adding it.  I'll supply the answer, of course.
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2017-08-14T08:45:40Z dim: why do you work on this project, as in what does it provide (to whom) when finished? for how long have you been working on it?
2017-08-14T08:45:52Z anticrisis: beach: what does success look like? Is it intended to eventually be an alternative to other open source implementations? Will it eventually build executables? (Sorry if these are too basic, i'm not familiar with the history of this project.)
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2017-08-14T08:46:07Z beach: dim: Do you want an answer here, or are these items to add to the FAQ?
2017-08-14T08:46:32Z dim: I think they could be a good opening to the FAQ
2017-08-14T08:46:34Z beach: anticrisis: OK, I'll add those.
2017-08-14T08:46:42Z beach: dim: OK, thanks.
2017-08-14T08:47:01Z pjb: beach: FAQ should be extracted from the question database after enough of them have been asked enough time to have a clear statistically significant idea of their frequency…
2017-08-14T08:47:14Z pjb: Just saying…
2017-08-14T08:47:36Z beach: pjb: I see, yes.
2017-08-14T08:47:41Z anticrisis: right, i was just going to say that one question from a newbie does not necessarily meet the "F" criteria
2017-08-14T08:47:59Z pjb: Otherwise, how do you know they're Frequent Questions?
2017-08-14T08:48:03Z dim: beach: you might have heard about Readme Driven Development wherein the first thing you do is explain to a user how to use your code, and to what benefits, I like to do that and I think it helps designing a FAQ too
2017-08-14T08:48:16Z beach: pjb: OK.  It doesn't really have to be frequent.
2017-08-14T08:48:26Z dim: pjb: have you seen a *single* FAQ curated that way?
2017-08-14T08:48:51Z pjb: In the old times, when they were posted to usenet, they were asked frequently enough to be included in the FAQ…
2017-08-14T08:49:13Z pjb: The goold old times….
2017-08-14T08:49:23Z dim: nowadays they're Marketing material meant to help users figure out if they need to care about your “product”
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2017-08-14T08:49:42Z dim: well that's my understanding of a FQ anyway
2017-08-14T08:49:43Z Shinmera prefers FQAs
2017-08-14T08:49:47Z anticrisis: Usenet started going downhill when they let AOL users access it, right?
2017-08-14T08:50:01Z pjb: about.
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2017-08-14T08:51:43Z dim: eternal september?
2017-08-14T08:51:43Z phoe: beach: for readability, I'd suggest making an additional newline after each answer. This way, question-answer blocks will be more separate optically.
2017-08-14T08:52:20Z phoe: Or, even, I'd get rid of "Question:" and "Answer:" altogether - I'd ask a question starting with "==", like, "== How can I run SICL?", followed immediately by the answer.
2017-08-14T08:52:35Z phoe: I say this because I find it hard to read this way.
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2017-08-14T08:53:23Z phoe: Or use Markdown to put questions in ## headers. But, judging by what your documentation looks like, I think you're a plaintext kind of person. :)
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2017-08-14T08:55:01Z Shinmera: Markdown is plaintext, too
2017-08-14T08:55:16Z phoe: I know, but it renders as formatted text.
2017-08-14T08:55:36Z beach: phoe: I'll contemplate the format later.  Right now I want to concentrate on the questions and answers.
2017-08-14T08:55:45Z phoe: beach: Sure. Thanks!
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2017-08-14T09:09:24Z dim: I like markdown very much, but when you're not used to it, it's a distraction from the content...
2017-08-14T09:09:41Z dim: heck I like markdown to the point of using it to write a full sized book ;-)
2017-08-14T09:09:59Z Shinmera: I hate markdown very much, but it's better than writing HTML for simple stuff.
2017-08-14T09:10:37Z dim: the key thing in favor of markdown for me is the pandoc tool
2017-08-14T09:11:02Z dim: pandoc .md -o .pdf with latex in the middle and my own latex template, very easily
2017-08-14T09:11:04Z Shinmera: Isn't the point of pandoc that it can do any format, not just Markdown?
2017-08-14T09:11:27Z dim: it's supposed to be yes, but I've not found the support for other formats on par with .md
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2017-08-14T09:12:35Z dim: my understanding is that “markdown has won” much like git has won against darcs, mercurial and fossil and others, maybe not in being the best technical candidate around, but in sheer adoption and then, advanced tooling
2017-08-14T09:12:56Z Shinmera: Don't stop me from hating Markdown.
2017-08-14T09:13:37Z axion: This is why Shinmera and I hate Markdown and you should too...it's a regex mess (takes a while to load) https://johnmacfarlane.net/babelmark2/?text=a%0A++*+b%0A++*+c
2017-08-14T09:13:41Z TMA: Shinmera: no one would want that
2017-08-14T09:14:17Z TMA: Shinmera: the fact it has won is one more reason to hate it :)
2017-08-14T09:14:17Z Shinmera: axion: That's about the lowest on my list of reasons to hate markdown.
2017-08-14T09:14:34Z Shinmera: But anyway, O/T
2017-08-14T09:14:40Z Shinmera: I'll just snuff it
2017-08-14T09:15:22Z dim: I used to write .rst and would version control with darcs
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2017-08-14T09:15:31Z dim: nowadays I'm writing markdown and using git
2017-08-14T09:15:36Z dim: but still using CL at least ;-)
2017-08-14T09:17:15Z schweers: not trying to start a flame war, I’m honestly curious: does darcs have real advantages over git?
2017-08-14T09:18:02Z jackdaniel: given migration statistics? no. from practical point of view it probably has some, but none is crucial
2017-08-14T09:19:23Z schweers: it might have helped that git was introduced by someone famous.  Or should I have heard the name David Roundy before?
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2017-08-14T09:41:26Z dim: at the time (2005) darcs had version control semantics and git was a file system abstration layer
2017-08-14T09:41:46Z dim: then git grew some version control smarts and quickly was better than darcs at the job
2017-08-14T09:41:52Z dim: at least that's my memories of it
2017-08-14T09:42:17Z schweers: ah, thanks for clarifying
2017-08-14T09:42:22Z dim: to this day, I think git still lacks a formal specification of how it handles revision control, which darcs had, it was the first thing you'd read about it
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2017-08-14T09:44:24Z dim: http://darcs.net/Theory/MergersDocumentation
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2017-08-14T11:16:44Z shka: beach: nice!
2017-08-14T11:20:09Z shka: beach: perhaps you can add "Who is using SICL (or parts of it)?" section?
2017-08-14T11:20:28Z shka: because iirc clasp is using cleavir
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2017-08-14T11:22:10Z shka: beach: FAQ looks great, i learned a lot and my understanding is improved
2017-08-14T11:22:13Z kora9: http://paste.lisp.org/display/353452 - What's a better way to do this?
2017-08-14T11:22:14Z shka: thumbs up :-)
2017-08-14T11:23:45Z shka: kora9: i think that it is actually ok
2017-08-14T11:23:56Z shka: but you may want to use array instead of list
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2017-08-14T11:24:54Z kora9: shka: Cool. Yeah I used an array first but it seemed like the benefits of using an array for that small a list would be outweighed by having to use generic functions right?
2017-08-14T11:25:34Z shka: generic function?
2017-08-14T11:25:40Z shka: nah
2017-08-14T11:25:52Z shka: aref is not generic function
2017-08-14T11:25:53Z kora9: Hmm
2017-08-14T11:26:01Z kora9: But I can't nth that right?
2017-08-14T11:26:02Z shka: as for cost
2017-08-14T11:26:17Z shka: nth for lists, elt for sequences, aref for arrays
2017-08-14T11:26:21Z shka: also
2017-08-14T11:26:31Z shka: length on list has linear cost
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2017-08-14T11:27:10Z shka: it is unlikely that aref is generic function
2017-08-14T11:27:22Z shka: standard allows it, but i don't think anybody does that
2017-08-14T11:28:19Z dim: is the length of an array stored in the array's “metadata”, btw?
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2017-08-14T11:28:28Z kora9: shka: Yeah, I had something like (nth (random (length (aref i wordlist))) (aref i wordlist)) for the array
2017-08-14T11:29:15Z shka: anyway, program looks fine, if you want to make it better, you may perhaps add local function so this long inner form won't be so cryptic
2017-08-14T11:29:21Z shka: but even that is not criticial
2017-08-14T11:29:46Z shka: you can also make wordlist argument
2017-08-14T11:30:04Z shka: and split program into two functions
2017-08-14T11:30:15Z shka: but honestly, i think it is ok the way it is
2017-08-14T11:30:28Z shka: but lists are not any good
2017-08-14T11:30:38Z kora9: shka: Cool. First thing I've written that gets even a 'pass' :)
2017-08-14T11:30:50Z kora9: shka: local form?
2017-08-14T11:31:01Z shka: flet
2017-08-14T11:31:06Z shka: ,clhs flet
2017-08-14T11:31:10Z shka: grrr
2017-08-14T11:31:14Z shka: !clhs flet
2017-08-14T11:31:15Z kora9: Yeah I was thinking that I could split it up and provide wordlist as an argument
2017-08-14T11:31:26Z kora9: Oh, I know of that as a 'local function' :P
2017-08-14T11:31:34Z Shinmera: dim: It's implementation dependant, but not storing array dimensions in the metadata would be quite stupid.
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2017-08-14T11:31:50Z shka: oh, one more thing
2017-08-14T11:32:13Z TMA: clhs flet
2017-08-14T11:32:13Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_flet_.htm
2017-08-14T11:32:18Z shka: TMA: thanks
2017-08-14T11:32:32Z TMA: shka: you are welcome
2017-08-14T11:32:43Z shka: kora9: you can store arrays in other arrays
2017-08-14T11:32:54Z kora9: shka: Aye
2017-08-14T11:32:56Z shka: no need to make list of lists, list of arrays
2017-08-14T11:33:26Z kora9: So I'll make an array containing three arrays
2017-08-14T11:33:34Z kora9: and use aref instead of nth?
2017-08-14T11:33:42Z shka: that's what i would do
2017-08-14T11:33:48Z kora9: Yeah that makes sense
2017-08-14T11:34:15Z shka: ok, there is one last thing
2017-08-14T11:34:34Z shka: i didn't notice, but you are using symbols instead of strings
2017-08-14T11:34:42Z shka: you probabbly don't want to do that
2017-08-14T11:35:01Z shka: because symbols are interned into package
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2017-08-14T11:36:14Z TMA: kora9: I think using symbols is perfectly fine.
2017-08-14T11:36:58Z kora9: shka: Yeah, I read that it's a common practice for some things
2017-08-14T11:37:16Z kora9: To use symbols internally and then make them into strings if there's a need
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2017-08-14T11:48:54Z Shinmera: Symbols are there to name finite quantities of things. So they're fine if you control that set. If you're processing potentially random data from elsewhere, symbols are probably not the right format.
2017-08-14T11:51:52Z kora9: That makes sense
2017-08-14T11:53:34Z Shinmera: You can use uninterned symbols for arbitrary data, but at that point the advantage of using symbols (easy typing, fast comparison) goes away.
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2017-08-14T11:58:49Z schweers: I have a question for the more experienced folks here: do you miss the encapsulation and hiding mechanisms that other languages (for instance C++ and java) have?
2017-08-14T11:59:04Z _death: schweers: no
2017-08-14T11:59:05Z Shinmera: I think hiding is a mistake, so no.
2017-08-14T11:59:28Z _death: packages and documentation are sufficient
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2017-08-14T12:00:41Z schweers: I think so too, but I’m not that experienced yet, especially not with larger projects, so I wanted a second opinion.  Thanks for providing it, altough I would be interested in arguments for wanting such encapsulation
2017-08-14T12:01:07Z Shinmera: The argument is "so we don't have to potentially break code our customers made in error against our library"
2017-08-14T12:01:56Z phoe: schweers: hiding? eww
2017-08-14T12:02:09Z phoe: Lisp is a language where the most efficient mechanism is trust.
2017-08-14T12:02:17Z schweers: phoe: I’m with you, wanted to know if I’m missing something :)
2017-08-14T12:02:18Z Shinmera: I like to trust users to know what they're doing, so I don't want to hinder them from doing it. If they use stuff I didn't explicitly document, and I break it in the future, that's their fault though, and it's only right that it breaks.
2017-08-14T12:02:24Z phoe: you, as a programmer, expose an interface in form of exported symbols.
2017-08-14T12:02:37Z phoe: you', as another programmer, are expected to first and foremost use that.
2017-08-14T12:02:54Z phoe: but you' can freely poke around the package's internals, inspect them, debug them, change them.
2017-08-14T12:02:59Z phoe: It's just that you're on your own then.
2017-08-14T12:03:10Z phoe: But still - the programmer convenience that stems from this is insane.
2017-08-14T12:03:38Z phoe: And if someone wants to hack your code, they'll do it anyway, so why not make it easier for them? If they're hacking around, then they're going to have a good reason for doing it.
2017-08-14T12:04:50Z schweers: debugging is a good point.  I once had to edit and recompile a C++ library in order to access some field which was private, of which I thought it may have been of some use to me.  Turn out it wasn’t, but that’s not the point ;)  It really was a hassle to go through
2017-08-14T12:04:51Z kora9: hmm
2017-08-14T12:05:01Z Shinmera: Anyway, in the industry you want to minimise support requests. So, in order to do that forwards and backwards compatibility is important. So, you want to prevent your users from "doing stuff" that isn't 100% intended.
2017-08-14T12:05:11Z kora9: How do programming languages interact with hardware when they are highly abstracted like CL?
2017-08-14T12:05:25Z Shinmera: kora9: What do you mean?
2017-08-14T12:05:30Z schweers: kora9: if you like, you can disassemble your code
2017-08-14T12:05:41Z schweers: (defun foo (...) ...) (disassemble 'foo)
2017-08-14T12:05:43Z Shinmera: If your implementation allows it, you can emit asm
2017-08-14T12:05:46Z kora9: Shinmera: Well, say you create a graphics engine or something, at some point you have to interact with the hardware right?
2017-08-14T12:05:47Z schweers: depends of course on the implementation
2017-08-14T12:05:51Z kora9: cool
2017-08-14T12:05:56Z Shinmera: kora9: Not for graphics, no
2017-08-14T12:06:07Z jackdaniel: kora9: ECL for instance allows you to inline C code
2017-08-14T12:06:08Z kora9: Shinmera: Oh.
2017-08-14T12:06:09Z Shinmera: kora9: For graphics you go through OS libraries that interact with the display drivers.
2017-08-14T12:06:22Z Shinmera: kora9: OpenGL or DirectX, for instance.
2017-08-14T12:06:29Z schweers: kora9: basically the same way other languages do it: calling libraries which---eventually---call the OS via syscalls
2017-08-14T12:06:29Z kora9: Do you use ECL for that, or can you do that directly through CL?
2017-08-14T12:06:38Z kora9: oh
2017-08-14T12:06:43Z jackdaniel: for inlining C? ECL is Common Lisp implementation
2017-08-14T12:06:43Z kora9: I always wondered about that
2017-08-14T12:06:44Z Shinmera: kora9: Most lisp implementations have CFFI support, so you can call any C library.
2017-08-14T12:06:56Z kora9: oh cool.
2017-08-14T12:06:57Z jackdaniel: because how it's build, you may inline C in it like you may inline assembly in C language
2017-08-14T12:07:16Z jackdaniel: so these is different feature from FFI
2017-08-14T12:07:21Z schweers: kora9: while it is not part of the standard, you can in practice poke around in “C data” and call “C functions”
2017-08-14T12:07:21Z kora9: It's too early for me to try and do any of that, but I was curious about how people who were experienced went about things like that
2017-08-14T12:07:25Z jackdaniel: (though may be used for static FFI of course)
2017-08-14T12:07:35Z kora9: schweers: Cool :)
2017-08-14T12:07:57Z Shinmera: You practically never talk to hardware directly from any language, unless you're in the sad and miserable position of having to write a driver or operating system.
2017-08-14T12:08:06Z Shinmera: In which case: good luck
2017-08-14T12:08:13Z kora9: Shinmera: Ah. Yeah that makes sense I suppose
2017-08-14T12:08:14Z jackdaniel: writing drivers is fun actually
2017-08-14T12:08:22Z jackdaniel: depends on the hardware of course
2017-08-14T12:08:29Z kora9: So you're still abstracted away, but on a slightly lower level interacting with whatever interfaces the drivers / API exposes?
2017-08-14T12:08:35Z Shinmera: If you think never having a spec that's actually true to the hardware is fun, ok
2017-08-14T12:08:36Z jackdaniel: but if it's well documented.. but I'm getting offtopic
2017-08-14T12:09:09Z jackdaniel: well, I've worked on writing drivers for documented hardware (like, with actual datasheets)
2017-08-14T12:09:31Z schweers: speaking of which: I have some code which uses FFI (I think CFFI, I have a really bad memory) which pokes around in a file I open via mmap.  I mostly operate on machine words, i.e. 8 byte integers and floats.  Is there any way to make at least the int part fast?  If I understand the warning correctly, sbcl has to convert types as 8 bytes is too much to fit into a fixnum.
2017-08-14T12:09:37Z Shinmera: ime having documentation that's actually accurate is exceedingly rare
2017-08-14T12:10:39Z Shinmera: schweers: A fixnum is going to have less than 64 bits (due to tagging), so it needs to convert across function boundaries.
2017-08-14T12:10:55Z Shinmera: schweers: The solution is to inline as much as possible, or avoid 64 bit numbers altogether.
2017-08-14T12:11:09Z schweers: Shinmera: I don’t call any C functions, I just use it to put data into a file and read said data from there
2017-08-14T12:11:10Z kora9: Shinmera: You had written a graphics engine right?
2017-08-14T12:11:20Z _death: you could also find a way to "blit" (unsigned-byte 64) arrays
2017-08-14T12:11:24Z Shinmera: schweers: So?
2017-08-14T12:11:34Z Shinmera: kora9: I'm working on a game engine that uses OpenGL.
2017-08-14T12:11:43Z schweers: uh, you’re right, I still have function calls.
2017-08-14T12:11:52Z kora9: Shinmera: Do you find that CL restricts the performance?
2017-08-14T12:12:12Z schweers: so the short answer is no?  accessing 8 byte memory words is expensive and will always be so (in sbcl)?
2017-08-14T12:12:14Z Shinmera: kora9: You can optimise if you want to, but I try not to focus on that at the moment.
2017-08-14T12:12:58Z Shinmera: kora9: I get acceptable performance for my current games, even without having spent any time optimising at all.
2017-08-14T12:13:07Z kora9: Cool
2017-08-14T12:13:18Z kora9: Shinmera: Is it hard making your own graphics engine?
2017-08-14T12:13:20Z Shinmera: kora9: I'm sure the time will come when I do need to optimise, but I got bigger fish to fry for a long time to come.
2017-08-14T12:13:37Z Shinmera: kora9: Depends on what you want to do with it.
2017-08-14T12:14:20Z joga: "yes"
2017-08-14T12:15:02Z Shinmera: If you want to make modern games with graphical fidelity and the kinds of things one would expect out of respectable titles, then the answer is: extremely so
2017-08-14T12:15:20Z kora9: Yeah I meant more simple things, not next-gen stuff which seems to be seriously complex
2017-08-14T12:15:26Z Shinmera: If you want to just make simple 2D sprite games or something like that, then the answer is: kinda, not really.
2017-08-14T12:15:36Z joga: fortunately there already exist very good engines for hi-fi stuff
2017-08-14T12:15:49Z kora9: Yeah but some day I want to try and write my own graphics engine :)
2017-08-14T12:15:57Z kora9: a simple one
2017-08-14T12:16:18Z schweers doesn’t even really know what a graphics engine does
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2017-08-14T12:16:26Z kora9: schweers: I'm kind of not clear on that either!
2017-08-14T12:16:27Z joga: for extra coolness you can write one for the vic-20 or so
2017-08-14T12:16:33Z kora9: schweers: Other than "it does graphics" :)
2017-08-14T12:16:48Z schweers: yeah, that’s about the amount I know about them too ;)
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2017-08-14T12:17:27Z Shinmera: Well, usually when one talks about a "graphics engine" it's about stuff like OpenGL or DirectX. Implementing a renderer yourself is fun, but won't be very practical for anything due to performance.
2017-08-14T12:17:59Z kora9: Shinmera: Ah yes. What sort of things does OpenGL do for you? I figure it kind of has some features to draw things?
2017-08-14T12:18:01Z schweers: I.e. if I use a rendering engine someone else wrote, I don’t have to call OpenGL or DirectX?
2017-08-14T12:18:02Z Shinmera: I assume kora9 means a "game engine" though. As in, something that manages assets and sets up the pipelining and whatever to allow you to build games by putting together objects and their interactions.
2017-08-14T12:18:25Z kora9: schweers: Yeah I think raytracing works like that?!
2017-08-14T12:18:52Z kora9: Shinmera: Hmm. I mean both I think
2017-08-14T12:18:56Z Shinmera: kora9: Modern opengl gives you a programmable pipeline on the GPU to render triangles to textures. It does a whole bunch of stuff that's really complicated to explain.
2017-08-14T12:19:07Z kora9: Shinmera: I'd like to build a game engine too, and I'd like to build a graphics engine (i.e. to show graphics in general)
2017-08-14T12:19:25Z kora9: Shinmera: Ah. Yeah I figure it's complex :) But thanks for trying to explain some at least
2017-08-14T12:19:29Z jackdaniel: kora9: you may be interested in hangout out with guys on #lispgames
2017-08-14T12:19:44Z kora9: jackdaniel: I am there from time to time! I am experimenting with dto's engine!
2017-08-14T12:20:08Z kora9: Very nice people there too :)
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2017-08-14T12:20:26Z jackdaniel: cepl is a nice project for working with 3d (written by baggers), there is also clinch (by warweasel), and dto's xelf
2017-08-14T12:20:38Z kora9: Yeah, xelf I've tried
2017-08-14T12:20:44Z Shinmera: And Shirakumo's Trial
2017-08-14T12:23:04Z _death: there was also that sketch project
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2017-08-14T12:26:05Z kora9: Are there any strong differences other than different authors?
2017-08-14T12:26:28Z Shinmera: I assume they're all very different.
2017-08-14T12:26:38Z kora9: Ah. I'll have to try each one :)
2017-08-14T12:26:40Z Shinmera: Simply because that's the nature of large projects.
2017-08-14T12:26:46Z jackdaniel: yes, cepl is for interactive programming from REPL and providing DSL for writing shaders in lisp
2017-08-14T12:27:17Z jackdaniel: clinch has nice abstraction for objects in world, so you are encouraged to reuse parts of it. it's also easy to write in
2017-08-14T12:27:19Z Shinmera: Right. CEPL is more low level than what one usually considers an "engine".
2017-08-14T12:27:50Z kora9: Oh, so it's an abstraction for building an engine rather than an engine in and of itself?
2017-08-14T12:27:51Z jackdaniel: xelf is more 2d thing providing nicities like GUI elements and physics
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2017-08-14T12:28:20Z Shinmera: kora9: CEPL is intended to make GPU programming accessible. You could build an engine on top of it, sure.
2017-08-14T12:28:42Z kora9: Ah, that sounds like a good starting point for me then, when the time comes that I'm good enough with CL to even attempt something like that!
2017-08-14T12:28:54Z kora9: I still have a long ways to go before that though :)
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2017-08-14T12:32:39Z kora9: Shinmera: The answer to this is probably very complex, but what's with graphics and triangles? I've noticed that there's a heavy emphasis on making triangles in engines
2017-08-14T12:33:57Z Shinmera: Triangles are the smallest geometric entity that has a surface. Thus anything else can be made out of triangles.
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2017-08-14T12:34:18Z kora9: Oh, that makes sense actually
2017-08-14T12:35:09Z Shinmera: Higher polygons also have the problem that if their edge points are not on a plane, the way the shape is formed in 3D is not inherently clear.
2017-08-14T12:35:19Z Shinmera: Requiring you to use triangles fixes this.
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2017-08-14T12:37:52Z kora9: Shinmera: So everything is tesselated?
2017-08-14T12:38:12Z Shinmera: You have to tesselate, yes.
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2017-08-14T12:40:25Z Shinmera: Usually you don't have models that require tesselation anyway, so it's not a big deal.
2017-08-14T12:41:41Z kora9: ah
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2017-08-14T12:44:52Z kora9: Shinmera: I'm watching the youtube videos of CEPL and it seems absolutely awesome (provided you know what you're doing) :)
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2017-08-14T12:45:54Z Shinmera: Well if you know what you're doing you can make anything look great.
2017-08-14T12:46:43Z Shinmera: Baggers does CEPL streams every saturday.
2017-08-14T12:46:54Z Shinmera: Usually announces them on /r/lisp, if you want to catch one live sometime.
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2017-08-14T12:49:11Z shka: CEPL is super cool
2017-08-14T12:50:19Z kora9: Shinmera: Cool, I'll do that!
2017-08-14T12:50:36Z kora9: It's kind of neat to see how experienced devs are doing things even if I don't understand all of it
2017-08-14T12:50:57Z Shinmera: Why did I say Saturday, I meant Wednesday
2017-08-14T12:51:06Z shka: ofc
2017-08-14T12:51:15Z Shinmera knocks on his noggin
2017-08-14T12:52:09Z kora9: :)
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2017-08-14T13:16:14Z phoe: Guys - I'll need some proofreading. I've answered the recently posted Lisp Expert Questions and I need to know if I haven't said something stupid in there. https://gist.github.com/phoe/bd2f30d33c75f265ba61453dc84d8f15
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2017-08-14T13:17:32Z shka: phoe: Are there any efforts to bring innovative libraries from the Clojure (or elsewhere) community into Common Lisp?
2017-08-14T13:17:34Z shka: this one
2017-08-14T13:17:39Z shka: i don't like your answer
2017-08-14T13:17:51Z phoe: Shit! Correct!
2017-08-14T13:17:53Z Shinmera: phoe: Quicklisp does not compile dependencies. ASDF still does that.
2017-08-14T13:18:19Z phoe: Shinmera: I actually wanted to write much more in here. This was meant to be the first paragraph. Thanks for pointing it out.
2017-08-14T13:18:24Z phoe: Shinmera: d'oh, that's correct. Thanks for pointing it out.
2017-08-14T13:18:27Z Shinmera: ASDF is a build tool like make. That's all.
2017-08-14T13:18:27Z shka: phoe: you could point transactional memory implementatation, monadic parsers, lparallel
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2017-08-14T13:18:35Z shka: and ofc, cl-data-structures :P
2017-08-14T13:18:59Z shka: instead you are just trolling
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2017-08-14T13:19:47Z phoe: shka: can you give me some links?
2017-08-14T13:20:35Z dlowe: shka: phoe has been doing a lot of good stuff over the years, and for you to dismiss him as trolling is just pathetic.
2017-08-14T13:20:44Z shka: https://lparallel.org/ https://github.com/cosmos72/stmx
2017-08-14T13:20:48Z phoe: dlowe: oh come on, I know I'm trolling there.
2017-08-14T13:20:50Z phoe: :D
2017-08-14T13:20:53Z shka: dlowe: not exactly ovre the years :P
2017-08-14T13:20:58Z phoe: over two years perhaps.
2017-08-14T13:21:00Z shka: and he can be trollish at times
2017-08-14T13:21:02Z dlowe: that's plural
2017-08-14T13:21:15Z phoe: dlowe: smallest possible plural, but okay.
2017-08-14T13:22:00Z phoe: shka: the monadic parsers?
2017-08-14T13:22:31Z shka: there are more then one
2017-08-14T13:22:39Z phoe: shka: gimme them
2017-08-14T13:22:46Z shka: https://github.com/drewc/smug
2017-08-14T13:22:55Z shka: https://github.com/VincentToups/parseltongue
2017-08-14T13:23:19Z phoe: So these two that I've found on Google. Okay.
2017-08-14T13:23:25Z shka: yeah
2017-08-14T13:23:35Z shka: anyway, we have cool toys as well
2017-08-14T13:24:04Z shka: could have nicer data structure lib, but that's what i am working at
2017-08-14T13:24:20Z kora9: What if Zach Beane turns out to be a villain in the end!
2017-08-14T13:24:32Z phoe: Xach: ^
2017-08-14T13:24:38Z phoe: what do you think of such a twist plot?
2017-08-14T13:24:40Z shka: that would be quite nice plot twist i would say
2017-08-14T13:24:45Z kora9: :)
2017-08-14T13:25:02Z shka: "NOW I CONTROL WORD WITH LISP, BUAHAHAHA!"? ;-)
2017-08-14T13:25:06Z shka: *world
2017-08-14T13:25:20Z kora9: We need a Christian Bale, or a Frodo
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2017-08-14T13:25:47Z phoe: to take the secretly forged pair of parens into Mount Lisp?
2017-08-14T13:25:52Z kora9: Yes
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2017-08-14T13:26:24Z phoe: shka: Shinmera: https://gist.github.com/phoe/bd2f30d33c75f265ba61453dc84d8f15 updated. Please keep on bashing the stupidity out of this text.
2017-08-14T13:26:45Z Shinmera: phoe: I don't have time to read it thoroughly right now, sorry.
2017-08-14T13:27:01Z phoe: Shinmera: No problem - the issue is not burning. Thanks!
2017-08-14T13:27:34Z edgar-rft: shka: in the beginning there was the word, and it was controlled by Lisp
2017-08-14T13:28:06Z phoe: edgar-rft: and John said, "let there be parens to delimit lists, let there be an opening paren and a closing paren"
2017-08-14T13:28:26Z phoe: and then he saw that (GOODP IT)
2017-08-14T13:28:53Z phoe: and there came line feed and carriage return, line 1
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2017-08-14T13:31:52Z edgar-rft: let's try (GODP <irc-nick>) on everyone
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2017-08-14T13:44:31Z whoman: in der beginning atom/adam , symbol
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2017-08-14T13:52:00Z schweers: God wrote in LISP code: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-OjTPj7K54
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2017-08-14T13:56:04Z edgar-rft: whoman is right, lists make not really much sense without atoms :-)
2017-08-14T13:56:04Z edgar-rft: phoe: Why can't Google search find many good resources? Beause there are *very little* good resources of anything at all in the internet. Most other things are much shittier than Common Lisp, so nobody there notices. That's the only difference. It's a perceptional illusion.
2017-08-14T13:57:48Z shka: phoe: Why do so few libraries use GitHub? I don't understand this
2017-08-14T13:58:04Z schweers: do people really ask that question?
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2017-08-14T14:00:39Z zulu_inuoe: Good morning every one!
2017-08-14T14:00:46Z kora9: Moring :)
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2017-08-14T14:01:16Z schweers: ah, timezones
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2017-08-14T14:02:05Z zulu_inuoe: It's morning to me, so it's morning to everyone else, too. Obviously
2017-08-14T14:02:25Z kora9: zulu_inuoe: Well, the earth is flat after all.
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2017-08-14T14:02:32Z shka: phoe: perhaps you could remove this question alltogether?
2017-08-14T14:02:34Z schweers: oh dear.  does this mean that I have to start my work day all over again?
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2017-08-14T14:02:38Z shka: it has no sense imho
2017-08-14T14:02:56Z kora9: I should probably add that I'm joking, sadly :D
2017-08-14T14:03:31Z zulu_inuoe: schweers: Primer style. Avoid yourself at all times. Invest in stock market. Become rich. Move to France. Build bigger time machine.
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2017-08-14T14:05:45Z zulu_inuoe: In more serious news: Logging. I'm using log4cl, it's very fancy, very sleek. But I noticed it hasn't been updated since 2013. Is this a case of "It's perfect don't break it" or has it been superseded by something else?
2017-08-14T14:06:37Z axion: Shinmera has a very nice logging library, verbose.
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2017-08-14T14:08:53Z shka: zulu_inuoe: if you are happy with it, just keep using it?
2017-08-14T14:09:14Z shka: seriously, code has no half life time
2017-08-14T14:09:29Z shka: it does not just break because of entropy
2017-08-14T14:09:38Z zulu_inuoe: axion: Thank you. I'm checking it out now.The immediate casual glance shows me that it doesn't have slime integration, which is pretty great in log4cl
2017-08-14T14:09:41Z shka: (unless you are in land of python)
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2017-08-14T14:10:07Z zulu_inuoe: shka: I fully understand, and that's why I'm trying to understand the situation rather than asking for a replacement.
2017-08-14T14:10:37Z shka: well, i would just keep using log4cl if it is good
2017-08-14T14:10:45Z zulu_inuoe: shka: I also believe in community involvement, so I like to keep track of what projects are getting focused on, etc.
2017-08-14T14:12:17Z zulu_inuoe: Seems like I likely will :)
2017-08-14T14:12:57Z shka: btw, thanks
2017-08-14T14:13:09Z shka: i will take a look at log4cl once i will need logger
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2017-08-14T14:15:20Z zulu_inuoe: absolutely. It was definitely a nice gold nugget for me
2017-08-14T14:16:07Z kora9: One thing in Land of Lisp that's completely insane to me, is that the author uses a short url service for all links. One that happens to not be up.
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2017-08-14T14:16:49Z schweers: umm … I can control and view logging from SLIME?  What have I been doing with my life?
2017-08-14T14:17:11Z oleo: how do you use logging ?
2017-08-14T14:17:15Z jackdaniel: log4slime the extension is called
2017-08-14T14:17:23Z schweers: I never understood why people do such a thing.  I blame twitter.
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2017-08-14T14:17:45Z schweers: oleo: you don’t want to know.  I hardly do it, but this seems like it could be useful for debugging
2017-08-14T14:17:51Z oleo: ya
2017-08-14T14:18:06Z oleo: i switched to logging my sessions from within bash tho....
2017-08-14T14:18:21Z oleo: all image creation image start phases etc....
2017-08-14T14:18:24Z phoe: shka: I don't want to remove the question. If it was asked, it should be answered. In the worst case, it's a silly question.
2017-08-14T14:18:25Z dTal: kora9: and the worst of that is, it's gone forever - archiving services don't help
2017-08-14T14:18:34Z oleo: i need those to see some stuff....
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2017-08-14T14:18:41Z oleo: others will not be so easy.....
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2017-08-14T14:19:27Z shka: phoe: well, for starter, redmonk graph says that we are above the curve in github repos
2017-08-14T14:19:30Z yegortimoshenko: why (pathname (osicat:open-temporary-file)) doesn't work, at least in sbcl? osicat returns a stream
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2017-08-14T14:23:28Z kora9: dTal: Yeah
2017-08-14T14:23:48Z kora9: dTal: It seems like such an obviously bad idea, from a programmer no less.
2017-08-14T14:24:30Z beach: kora9: What do you have against generic functions?
2017-08-14T14:24:40Z kora9: beach: Nothing
2017-08-14T14:24:48Z schweers: yegortimoshenko: what happens when you try it?
2017-08-14T14:25:05Z beach: kora9: Oh, OK.  I must have misunderstood.
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2017-08-14T14:26:01Z kora9: beach: I was asking more to gain some level of insight if generic functions in that specific scenario might impact the speed more than using an array helps (as I thought I had to use generic functions for that, then)
2017-08-14T14:26:58Z shka: hehe
2017-08-14T14:27:20Z shka imagines beach with baseball bat
2017-08-14T14:27:28Z shka: "What do you have against generic functions?"
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2017-08-14T14:28:05Z zulu_inuoe: ahaha
2017-08-14T14:28:20Z kora9: As an enforcer to Zach Beane, the villain? :)
2017-08-14T14:28:50Z phoe: I'd say beach has more style than that. A golf club, not a baseball bat. :)
2017-08-14T14:28:56Z shka: you know what happens when you are neglecting generic functions?
2017-08-14T14:29:01Z shka: people get HURT!
2017-08-14T14:29:06Z kora9: :D
2017-08-14T14:29:08Z phoe facepalms.
2017-08-14T14:29:17Z schweers: I’m trying to figure out what’s wrong with the what yegortimoshenko asked and it is weird.  I have the return value of open-timporary-file in a global variable.  So I can inspect it.  It is an fd-stream.  Yet, when I pass it to PATHNAME, it says that NIL is not a pathname!?
2017-08-14T14:29:23Z shka: phoe: that makes it better
2017-08-14T14:29:53Z oleo: err
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2017-08-14T14:30:42Z oleo: the fd-stream is devoid of any pathname associated with it ?
2017-08-14T14:30:51Z oleo: rather there is no such thing ?
2017-08-14T14:30:57Z oleo: it's a stream
2017-08-14T14:31:02Z oleo: fd or not
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2017-08-14T14:31:26Z schweers: I supposed that would be the case, that is why I tried it.  I find the error a little confusing though.  But ok, I understand now.
2017-08-14T14:31:35Z oleo: why would pathname know anything about the stream, until the stream was yelling i'm the file located blabla
2017-08-14T14:32:20Z oleo: you have to capture information of the path additionally, at the time you are opening it....
2017-08-14T14:32:30Z oleo: and pass it around to stuff that needs it
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2017-08-14T14:49:45Z yegortimoshenko: schweers: https://gist.githubusercontent.com/yegortimoshenko/445aa9c7e8d61790eb3cead3240c7903/raw/e1d7918fc1002362ae6d18e0f6416fe08d451a72/osicat.log
2017-08-14T14:50:17Z schweers: yegortimoshenko: see what oleo said on the subject
2017-08-14T14:51:47Z yegortimoshenko: well, there's no way to capture this information on stream creation.
2017-08-14T14:53:09Z schweers: btw: if you’re on linux you might find out where the file lies by checking the contents of /proc/self/fd/
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2017-08-14T14:55:10Z yegortimoshenko: schweers: thanks, nice hack. really perplexed what/why pathname on fd-streams is so broken
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2017-08-14T14:58:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: fg
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2017-08-14T15:13:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: phoe: as far as the "extend the standard" question goes, my sense is that the Python community has discovered that the standard library is where libraries go to die
2017-08-14T15:13:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: Once a library gets incorporated into a "standard", it can no longer develop at its own pace, but only at the pace of the various implementations of the standard
2017-08-14T15:14:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: Whereas, if you implement the library in terms of other language features and maintain it, it can evolve as necessary
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2017-08-14T15:18:38Z phoe: fiddlerwoaroof: thanks!
2017-08-14T15:19:42Z shka: oh, i hate python ecosystem so much
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2017-08-14T15:19:45Z shka: :/
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2017-08-14T15:20:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: phoe: http://www.leancrew.com/all-this/2012/04/where-modules-go-to-die/
2017-08-14T15:20:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: Supposedly rust people have also found this... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12177545
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2017-08-14T15:21:44Z loke: I know nothing about the python ecosystem, but it cannot possibly be any worse than the Javascript one.
2017-08-14T15:22:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: Javascript is an ok language, if you're using Clojurescript :)
2017-08-14T15:22:33Z phoe: Javascript is an OK language if you're not touching it.
2017-08-14T15:22:59Z whoman: javascript is an ok language;
2017-08-14T15:23:54Z oleo: ok
2017-08-14T15:24:00Z oleo: that's your opinion
2017-08-14T15:24:03Z oleo: lol
2017-08-14T15:24:18Z phoe: whoman: why the semicolon
2017-08-14T15:24:21Z phoe: it's optional nowadays
2017-08-14T15:24:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: except when it's not
2017-08-14T15:24:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: like return\n12333 turns into return;12333
2017-08-14T15:24:59Z whoman: cliffhanger! i grew up on C, didnt like JS for the longest time, then seen some functional stuff, played with its "hackable" ways, and i like it now. if there wasnt lisp or haskell or erlang or ocaml (in that order) i would be in JS land
2017-08-14T15:25:11Z whoman: suspense*
2017-08-14T15:26:08Z loke: fiddlerwoaroof: wait what? It does?
2017-08-14T15:26:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think so, I forget all the details, but there are a couple weird edge cases for automatic semicolon insertion
2017-08-14T15:26:52Z phoe: ^
2017-08-14T15:27:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Reference/Statements/return#Automatic_Semicolon_Insertion
2017-08-14T15:27:08Z loke has been using Kotlin recently, and while it's overall a better language than Java (and Javascript), it also has the same "optional semicolon" rule, and I'm not sure what will happen if you do return\n123 in it.
2017-08-14T15:27:39Z loke: Since you have to declare the return value from a function, I guess it could infer the intent (which wouldn't be out of place given the language as a whole)
2017-08-14T15:27:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: The general rule of Javascript is that you can't implement any feature in the expected way: you have to implement it in the "Javascript" way.
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2017-08-14T15:35:48Z dim: http://webassembly.org/ --- there's hope
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2017-08-14T15:37:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: I don't understand why webassembly didn't start out with a DOM integration story
2017-08-14T15:37:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: For now, it's basically only good for the algorithmic side of things
2017-08-14T15:38:42Z whoman: oh mein gott. emacs lisp : 14 seconds. sbcl: 0.094 seconds
2017-08-14T15:39:28Z phoe: whoman: :)
2017-08-14T15:39:50Z whoman: that is so bad lol!
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2017-08-14T15:40:10Z phoe: whoman: what did you run?
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2017-08-14T15:40:37Z whoman: the first two forms from: https://kratofragments.wordpress.com/2014/04/26/defstruct-vs-defclass-a-2x-difference/
2017-08-14T15:41:01Z whoman: could be #random
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2017-08-14T15:41:54Z whoman: well it saves 0.5 seconds without random. still, that is too much
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2017-08-14T15:50:00Z edgar-rft: whoman: defstruct and defclass are no Elisp built-ins, they are implemented in Elisp libraries, what is known for not being really fast
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2017-08-14T16:31:14Z whoman: edgar-rft, that is quite true, hmm.
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2017-08-14T16:44:06Z axion: If you're using defstruct like that, it can be made much much much faster, too.
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2017-08-14T16:48:33Z kora9: warweasle: No not MIT
2017-08-14T16:48:42Z kora9: Why?
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2017-08-14T17:04:56Z kora9: loke: What about Scala?
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2017-08-14T17:23:36Z gremdrus: yesterday someone was talking about bootstrapping sicl, and I really didn't understand their argument. Was it that host-based clos could be used instead of a proto one?
2017-08-14T17:24:22Z jackdaniel: gremdrus: it is simple
2017-08-14T17:24:33Z kora9: Is anyone using SICL? What's it like?
2017-08-14T17:24:34Z jackdaniel: you need at least one conforming CL compiler to bootstrap SICL
2017-08-14T17:24:45Z jackdaniel: then you may compile SICL with the previosu version of SICL
2017-08-14T17:24:46Z vtomole: kora9: Its not finished yet
2017-08-14T17:24:52Z kora9: oh
2017-08-14T17:25:00Z jackdaniel: fwiw that's the same what GCC does – it is compiled with the previous version
2017-08-14T17:25:17Z jackdaniel: first version was compiled with some other compiler (or bootstrapped from assembly, it doesn't matter)
2017-08-14T17:25:18Z kora9: jackdaniel: I've always had issues wrapping my head around that stuff. It's very chicken and egg for me :)
2017-08-14T17:25:43Z kora9: Though I hear the egg came first ^^
2017-08-14T17:25:57Z jackdaniel: kora9: right, I get the sentiment. For instance ECL is bootstrapped from C code
2017-08-14T17:26:20Z vtomole: kora9: Me too. I've been writing a toy compiler and its starting to make sense now.
2017-08-14T17:26:28Z Bike: well, when you compile-file you get a fasl file. you can then load the fasl file in a (slightly) different lisp implementation. sicl does the same thing writ large. or will.
2017-08-14T17:26:29Z jackdaniel: but imagine situation: you have ECL bootstrapped from C (assuming you have C compiler), and using ECL you compile SICL
2017-08-14T17:26:32Z kora9: jackdaniel: Yeah I understand it on a basic level, that it makes sense that at some point, with any language that's not machine code you're going to have to compile it using something else the first time
2017-08-14T17:26:39Z jackdaniel: so in fact SICL is bootstrapped indirectly from C
2017-08-14T17:26:41Z gremdrus: jackdaniel: okay I think I get it.
2017-08-14T17:27:00Z jackdaniel: kora9: exactly
2017-08-14T17:27:06Z jackdaniel: gremdrus: great :-)
2017-08-14T17:27:10Z kora9: jackdaniel: What I have issues wrapping my head around is how there can be performance improvements and not performance degradation when you just layer things like that
2017-08-14T17:27:27Z gremdrus: jackdaniel: thank you for explaining it
2017-08-14T17:27:31Z jackdaniel: kora9: because you are confused about abstraction level
2017-08-14T17:27:43Z kora9: jackdaniel: Yeah I probably am :)
2017-08-14T17:27:46Z jackdaniel: you may compile *compiler* with some other (i.e not optimizing) compiler
2017-08-14T17:27:56Z jackdaniel: but the result may be a compiler which does optimizations
2017-08-14T17:28:05Z jackdaniel: and code compiled with this new tool is optimized better
2017-08-14T17:28:19Z kora9: jackdaniel: Here's where I'm lost, because I don't get how the new compiler can produce better machine code than the one that compiled it
2017-08-14T17:28:27Z Bike: do you know what a compiler does?
2017-08-14T17:28:29Z jackdaniel: compiler doesn't have to compile to the language it was bootstrapped from, it may produce native code
2017-08-14T17:28:35Z kora9: Bike: Vaguely
2017-08-14T17:28:40Z Bike: it outputs machine code. what the compiler itself is written is doesn't matter
2017-08-14T17:28:58Z kora9: Oh wait.
2017-08-14T17:29:05Z Bike: you could get a lot of paper and run gcc by hand
2017-08-14T17:29:08Z jackdaniel: what Bike said, compiler is just ordinary program, which takes as input program, and outputs machine code
2017-08-14T17:29:17Z kora9: I didn't think about that. I figured that the machine code produces would somehow be derived from the machine code used in the original compiler used to compile the new one
2017-08-14T17:29:20Z oleo: the functionality of optimizing is writ into the source of the new compiler....
2017-08-14T17:29:28Z kora9: s/produces/produced
2017-08-14T17:29:33Z oleo: so when it emits machine code, it will also emit the optimizing part
2017-08-14T17:29:45Z kora9: Yeah.
2017-08-14T17:29:46Z jackdaniel: kora9: for instance cross-compilers produce machine code, which is most probably impossible to run on host machine
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2017-08-14T17:29:56Z kora9: jackdaniel: I've wondered about that too!
2017-08-14T17:30:07Z kora9: jackdaniel: I've cross-compiled, but I can't say I really get how that works
2017-08-14T17:30:16Z Bike: once you understand a compiler is just a program it really helps a lot of stuff.
2017-08-14T17:30:18Z kora9: other than "something emulation"
2017-08-14T17:30:31Z jackdaniel: compiler is just a program, it takes program and outputs something executable
2017-08-14T17:30:32Z kora9: Bike: Yeah I am probably making this more complicated in my head than it is.
2017-08-14T17:30:47Z jackdaniel: it doesn't matter what you compile your program (compiler) in, because what you are interested is input and output
2017-08-14T17:30:54Z kora9: Yeah I kind of get it now
2017-08-14T17:31:04Z jackdaniel: of course, if you compile your compiler with non-performant compiler, than compilation process may be slow
2017-08-14T17:31:10Z jackdaniel: but that won't influence the result
2017-08-14T17:31:24Z kora9: What about operating system kernels?
2017-08-14T17:31:29Z jackdaniel: because it doesn't matter what you compile in statement "print 'hello world'", it will always have the same result
2017-08-14T17:31:32Z kora9: At some point there, you have to write some portion in machine code right?
2017-08-14T17:31:47Z phoe: kora9: depends
2017-08-14T17:31:50Z jackdaniel: not necessarily, you may have compiler which accepts C and outputs machine code
2017-08-14T17:31:54Z phoe: the compiled code needs to be machine code
2017-08-14T17:32:01Z kora9: Oh, right.
2017-08-14T17:32:04Z phoe: but the source code can be anything that you have a compiler for
2017-08-14T17:32:05Z oleo: so think of it as that
2017-08-14T17:32:07Z oleo: it's both C
2017-08-14T17:32:14Z oleo: one uses more functionality one less.....
2017-08-14T17:32:19Z jackdaniel: I think I've said everything I know about compilers, so I'm going to take a break, have a nice evening :-)
2017-08-14T17:32:33Z kora9: I've mainly used Java and Lisp and so I kind of think of programs as not being compiled in that sense
2017-08-14T17:32:51Z phoe: Java and Lisp programs are compiled though
2017-08-14T17:32:58Z phoe: in case of Java, into JVM bytecode
2017-08-14T17:32:59Z kora9: jackdaniel: Have a nice evening, and thanks for explaining. I'm learning, gradually :)
2017-08-14T17:33:01Z TMA: kora9: it was done previously (in the sixties) -- an assembler was written in assembly language, then a high level language (fortran) compiler was written in assembly...
2017-08-14T17:33:04Z phoe: in case of Lisp, it's implementation-dependent
2017-08-14T17:33:07Z kora9: phoe: Yeah! That's true
2017-08-14T17:33:24Z kora9: TMA: Oh
2017-08-14T17:33:55Z phoe: kora9: TMA: that process is called bootstrapping
2017-08-14T17:33:55Z TMA: kora9: the first lisp was written by translating the interpreter (as written on paper) to assembly by hand
2017-08-14T17:34:15Z phoe: you need A to build B, you need B to build C
2017-08-14T17:34:51Z TMA: kora9: the first LISP, it was customary to name languages with uppercase names then (as is the case with e.g. FORTRAN)
2017-08-14T17:34:56Z phoe: I remember the fun I had when compiling GCC once; I think I had GCC 4.3, I needed to compile GCC5 with GCC4, then GCC6 with GCC5, then GCC7 with GCC6, oh boy
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2017-08-14T17:35:02Z kora9: phoe: I didn't know that! I've heard the term bootstrap a lot, but I never knew what it meant
2017-08-14T17:35:22Z phoe: kora9: you want to compile SBCL for example.
2017-08-14T17:35:23Z kora9: TMA: Oh, yeah I've noticed that old languages are WRITTEN WITH VERY LARGE LETTERS :)
2017-08-14T17:35:29Z Bike: it's from stories about munchausen, also known for the mental illness
2017-08-14T17:35:36Z phoe: SBCL needs a working Common Lisp to bootstrap itself from.
2017-08-14T17:35:38Z Bike: he pulled himself out of a swamp by his bootstraps
2017-08-14T17:35:42Z Bike: which makes no sense, so it's a joke
2017-08-14T17:35:44Z jackdaniel: I imagine how beach is glad that he doesn't have to explain this stuff *once again* ;-)
2017-08-14T17:35:47Z kora9: Bike: Really?
2017-08-14T17:35:55Z Bike: really what?
2017-08-14T17:35:59Z TMA: kora9: originally it's from a tale about a man that pulled himself from a swamp by pulling on the straps on his boots :)
2017-08-14T17:36:03Z kora9: Bike: Is that about munchhausen and bootstrap true?
2017-08-14T17:36:07Z Bike: sure
2017-08-14T17:36:09Z kora9: Cool
2017-08-14T17:36:12Z phoe: So either you grab an already compiled SBCL, or you need another Common Lisp implementation.
2017-08-14T17:36:14Z Bike: i only lie when it's funny, and this channel is not very funny
2017-08-14T17:36:16Z kora9: I have to read about that, I love stories like this :)
2017-08-14T17:36:21Z phoe: Such as ECL or CLISP, which bootstrap from C.
2017-08-14T17:36:26Z kora9: phoe: Oh.
2017-08-14T17:36:29Z phoe: But you need a C compiler for that.
2017-08-14T17:36:38Z phoe: What do you compile a C compiler with?
2017-08-14T17:36:42Z phoe: :)
2017-08-14T17:36:48Z kora9: phoe: The previous C compiler? :P
2017-08-14T17:36:56Z phoe: kora9: that's how it works, yes.
2017-08-14T17:37:03Z kora9: I'm learning :)
2017-08-14T17:37:06Z TMA: kora9: it is impossible to do that in reality. but the existence of that story about Munchhausen is a fact :)
2017-08-14T17:37:07Z jackdaniel: I'm reading C source code and rewrite it to assembly
2017-08-14T17:37:20Z kora9: TMA: Haha, yeah I understand that you can't really do that in reality :)
2017-08-14T17:37:42Z oleo: jackdaniel: what for ?
2017-08-14T17:37:46Z kora9: TMA: Though when I was younger I always wondered if it would work to jump in an elevator that was crashing, to survive :)
2017-08-14T17:38:06Z jackdaniel: oleo: to not depend on C compiler of course!
2017-08-14T17:38:33Z oleo: err, yes but that will only work on your puter ?
2017-08-14T17:38:51Z jackdaniel: I'm writing portable x86 assembly ;-)
2017-08-14T17:38:56Z jackdaniel: but seriously, I"m jsut joking
2017-08-14T17:39:00Z kora9: TMA: Cool thing about that, did you know that actually works?
2017-08-14T17:39:08Z oleo: ah ok
2017-08-14T17:39:13Z jackdaniel: I don't have all time in the world to translate C to assembly
2017-08-14T17:39:24Z kora9: TMA: That if you jump close to when the elevator crashes, you'll decrease your velocity. Probably not enough, but some :)
2017-08-14T17:39:41Z phoe: (ql:quickload :trivial-velocity-decrease)
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2017-08-14T17:40:01Z oleo: kora9: you don't know the impact time, there's the timing issue
2017-08-14T17:40:03Z TMA: kora9: well, in theory it might (as it is the rapid deceleration that kills you. if you jumped just right you would be decelerating slower) but the timing is tricky, and you probably do not jump fast enough
2017-08-14T17:40:33Z kora9: Yeah its theoretical but I asked the physics guy tetro, and he said it works
2017-08-14T17:40:38Z oleo: kora9: and even if, the height would not allow much jumping
2017-08-14T17:41:06Z oleo: kora9: and even if you jumped high enough, the rest kinetic energy would very probably still be too high.....
2017-08-14T17:41:27Z kora9: Apparently if you jump too early you'll fall higher
2017-08-14T17:41:46Z oleo: kora9: if you spared 10km/h from 50 km/h you'd still be jammed with 40 km/h on the ground
2017-08-14T17:42:02Z kora9: Yeah as I said 'probably not enough' :)
2017-08-14T17:42:09Z kora9: I'm just surprised it works even a little bit!
2017-08-14T17:42:55Z kora9: Kind of as surprising as what he said about lift and airplanes. That the theory that planes fly because of airflow being different speeds over and under the wing is wrong. They taught that at my school!
2017-08-14T17:45:03Z oleo: orly
2017-08-14T17:46:01Z kora9: Yeah :)
2017-08-14T17:46:19Z oleo: and why is it wrong ?
2017-08-14T17:46:24Z dlowe: yeah, airplanes fly because the wings are slanted with respect to the direction of force
2017-08-14T17:46:34Z TMA: I vaguely recall that the pressure is different, not the airflow speed
2017-08-14T17:46:38Z dlowe: it has nothing to do with the bournoulli effect
2017-08-14T17:46:42Z kora9: I don't understand it exactly, because tetro said it was wrong, wait I have the link he said
2017-08-14T17:47:08Z kora9: hmm
2017-08-14T17:47:12Z kora9: How do I paste in emacs?
2017-08-14T17:47:19Z dlowe: WITH A PASTEBIN SITE
2017-08-14T17:47:52Z dlowe: oh, just pasting a link :D it's C-y (yank) (I know it's dumb)
2017-08-14T17:48:02Z kora9: Ahh :D
2017-08-14T17:48:04Z TMA: https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/CopyAndPaste
2017-08-14T17:48:21Z kora9: https://www.grc.nasa.gov/www/k-12/airplane/wrong1.html
2017-08-14T17:48:36Z kora9: He gave me this, I don't understand it, he tried explaining it but I'm not good with physics things :)
2017-08-14T17:49:10Z kora9: TMA: Ah that's where I got from google too :)
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2017-08-14T17:49:20Z Bike: with java... tragic.
2017-08-14T17:50:45Z vtomole: kora9: Are you a new programmer?
2017-08-14T17:51:20Z kora9: vtomole: Yeah
2017-08-14T17:52:25Z kora9: vtomole: I'm mid-way through Land of Lisp :)
2017-08-14T17:53:55Z vtomole: kora9: I was a new programmer over a year ago. #lisp is a very helpful and friendly place and the people here have helped me grow a lot :)
2017-08-14T17:54:42Z vtomole: kora9: There is a lisp newbie channel for beginners, but that is usually quiet
2017-08-14T17:55:04Z vtomole: #clnoobs
2017-08-14T17:55:08Z kora9: vtomole: Yeah, people here are great. I'm very happy that people who are very knowledgable has the patience to put up with some of my questions. I know that sometimes they're stupid. :-P But i'm trying and I'm learning every day.
2017-08-14T17:55:13Z kora9: Oh, cool. I'll join anyways
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2017-08-14T17:59:40Z dlowe: there's some small value in having a specialized channel
2017-08-14T18:02:04Z Shinmera: Problem is, most people just join #lisp, and saying >>#clnoobs is pretty rude.
2017-08-14T18:02:40Z dlowe: well, "You might want to additionally join #clnoobs" seems like a common-sense suggestion
2017-08-14T18:02:41Z kora9: Personally I don't take offense in being called a noob unless it's being used in a derogatory fashion. I /am/ a noob
2017-08-14T18:03:03Z Shinmera: dlowe: Sure, but I mean, that's only after the question has already been addressed in here, heh
2017-08-14T18:05:09Z phoe: #clnoobs has value when there's high traffic.
2017-08-14T18:05:58Z kora9: I think I'll ask my questions there first before bothering this channel. That seems like the polite thing to do
2017-08-14T18:06:01Z dlowe: Has value anyway, just because the people in there are a) beginners or b) experienced lispers who are there specifically to help
2017-08-14T18:06:27Z Shinmera: Right. It's just not as good at segregating traffic as one might desire it to be is all I'm saying.
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2017-08-14T18:06:50Z kora9: Shinmera: Maybe it would work better to make #lisp the noob channel and #lisp-notnoobs the not noobs channel :D
2017-08-14T18:07:10Z Shinmera: That'll work as well as trying to make #lisp about all dialects and not just common lisp
2017-08-14T18:07:26Z Shinmera: Which is to say, not at all
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2017-08-14T18:07:35Z kora9: That /was/ confusing for me when I first joined! I didn't even know the difference between Lisp/Common Lisp
2017-08-14T18:07:44Z dlowe: ##lisp is about all dialects
2017-08-14T18:07:53Z kora9: I also didn't know that freenode used ##
2017-08-14T18:07:58Z dlowe: it turns out that there isn't much to say about all dialects
2017-08-14T18:08:10Z dlowe: "So, how about them parens?"
2017-08-14T18:09:19Z Shinmera: Have you heard about the parens in that other language? They have edges. What do you think?
2017-08-14T18:09:46Z raynold: ahh it's a wonderful day :D
2017-08-14T18:11:12Z vtomole: Some lisps use brackets for sexprs  *gasp*
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2017-08-14T18:11:43Z shka: syntax does not matter
2017-08-14T18:12:14Z shka: i like (()) but there is little point in discussing syntax
2017-08-14T18:12:21Z dlowe: only life matters
2017-08-14T18:12:25Z Shinmera: dlowe: debatable
2017-08-14T18:12:49Z dlowe: Shinmera: what isn't?
2017-08-14T18:12:51Z Shinmera: Have you considered solipsism?
2017-08-14T18:13:02Z shka: in the end, syntax is one of less significant features of language
2017-08-14T18:13:07Z dlowe: Shinmera: yes.  It's not about lisp.
2017-08-14T18:13:10Z shka: unless it is complicated
2017-08-14T18:13:34Z Shinmera: shka: Well, now you're just pushing the question to what counts as complicated.
2017-08-14T18:14:23Z shka: well, if you can't construct fully deterministic parser, it is certainly a problem
2017-08-14T18:14:29Z shka is looking at C++
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2017-08-14T18:18:35Z zulu_inuoe: I graduated school as an idealistic Computer Scientist, demanding everything be perfect. It's not until a year later that I became a "This is good enough" practical Engineer. I think you need a little of both!
2017-08-14T18:20:39Z Bike: did you not have to do projects in school?
2017-08-14T18:21:47Z zulu_inuoe: Unfortunately, no. I learned all my source control, working with teams, devops, etc at my first job. My school did not have a very good focus on real-world projects, and at that time I was not smart enough to reach out for myself.
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2017-08-14T18:22:13Z jsjolen: I had to re-install roswell, how the heck do I set up sbcl source locationsnow again :-/?
2017-08-14T18:23:18Z zulu_inuoe: That's not the ideal, but I was lucky to land a job at a -very- practical company, so the contrasting viewpoints between me and my colleagues I think really helped me grow.
2017-08-14T18:23:55Z zulu_inuoe: ^I mean to say, a lot of the people I worked with went to schools (one school in particular) that was pretty much all hands-on, and very little theory
2017-08-14T18:24:19Z Bike: jsjolen: sb-ext:set-sbcl-source-location?
2017-08-14T18:25:39Z jsjolen: Bike: Right, I was scavenging the manual for that!
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2017-08-14T18:30:24Z sukaeto: zulu_inuoe: fwiw, a degree in computer science isn't meant to prepare you for work as a software developer (though some departments are expanding their program in that direction these days)
2017-08-14T18:32:05Z zulu_inuoe: sukaeto: Yes. That is 100% correct and a thing some people often misunderstand. I don't regret the school not giving me more hands-on experience, I regret not going out and getting it myself. But again, it all worked out well for me
2017-08-14T18:32:48Z jsjolen: What kind of hands-on experience are you thinking about? zulu_inuoe
2017-08-14T18:34:43Z zulu_inuoe: jsjolen: A lot of schools (including the one I went to, -after- I graduated) will have a "Senior Project", which is a big, open-ended development project. You get aquainted with source control, working in a team, documentation, setting goals, dealing with third-party libraries and tools, etc.
2017-08-14T18:35:13Z zulu_inuoe: I don't mean to derail the #lisp channel, by the way. Sorry all.
2017-08-14T18:35:37Z jsjolen: zulu_inuoe: Nice. We had the same in 2nd year, with the addition of working with a company to produce some sort of product/deliverable
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2017-08-14T18:59:39Z ptdel: hello, could somebody tell me why when I run this, only the second make-instance is returned? I think I am misunderstanding how to use defmethod, my understanding was i could redefine the method multiple times http://sprunge.us/FgiY
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2017-08-14T19:01:43Z phoe: ptdel: what do you mean, only the second make-instance is returned?
2017-08-14T19:02:07Z phoe: oh, wait a second - you're using PROGN method combination.
2017-08-14T19:02:29Z phoe: Oh wait a second. It doesn't matter.
2017-08-14T19:02:39Z Bike: both methods are specialized on the same class, so the second overrides the first
2017-08-14T19:02:41Z phoe: You define the method, and then redefine it, so the first definition is lost.
2017-08-14T19:02:56Z phoe: You got the order wrong.
2017-08-14T19:03:07Z phoe: (query list-named-query)
2017-08-14T19:03:09Z Bike: even if you didn't, it's a progn method combination, you're only getting one thing out of it
2017-08-14T19:03:52Z phoe: Yes, use LIST method combination if anything.
2017-08-14T19:04:13Z Bike: encode-object-slots might be for effect, i dunno
2017-08-14T19:04:17Z ptdel: ah ok, I was looking at the yason example code and it defines a few classes and then makes multiple defmethods from yason:encode-object
2017-08-14T19:04:29Z ptdel: so i just misunderstood
2017-08-14T19:04:30Z Bike: well both your methods specialize on the QUERY class
2017-08-14T19:04:48Z Bike: kind of seems like you meant them to specialized on LIST-NAMED-QUERIES and LIST-QUERY-EXECUTIONS
2017-08-14T19:05:04Z ptdel: yeah i rewrote them to be the case, but i still get the same result
2017-08-14T19:05:09Z ptdel: if i get rid of inheritence
2017-08-14T19:05:13Z ptdel: inheritance*
2017-08-14T19:06:22Z Bike: if encode slots has two methods, one on list-named-queries and one on list-query-executions, and neither of those classes inherits from the other, and you call encode-slots an object of type list-named-quries
2017-08-14T19:06:29Z Bike: obviously it's not going to call the list-query-executions method.
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2017-08-14T19:07:25Z ptdel: thanks, it's not obvious to me yet :)
2017-08-14T19:07:31Z ptdel: what you said makes sense
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2017-08-14T19:10:16Z oleo: progn either/or
2017-08-14T19:10:17Z oleo: lol
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2017-08-14T19:12:41Z ptdel shrugs trying to bootstrap myself into the language i still dont know the full spec of most keywords offhand
2017-08-14T19:12:48Z ptdel: guess that means i need to read more :)
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2017-08-14T19:48:39Z gremdrus: what does this mean:   Required argument is not a symbol: (&KEY ((:PATH PATH)))
2017-08-14T19:49:09Z gremdrus: this is my horrible code: https://gist.github.com/gremdrus/7b03dad2fdaffe472d3d978700bb2a5f
2017-08-14T19:49:25Z _rumbler31: I bet the function you're calling is expecting to see the symbol :path "somepath" and you're not giving it that
2017-08-14T19:49:31Z dlowe: gremdus: you have too many parens there
2017-08-14T19:49:45Z dlowe: way too many
2017-08-14T19:49:50Z Bike: syntax is wrong. (defun (url (&key ((:path path))))
2017-08-14T19:49:57Z Bike: should be (defun (url &key path)
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2017-08-14T19:50:45Z _rumbler31: or (defun (url &key (path defaultpath)) ...) right?
2017-08-14T19:50:46Z gremdrus: I thought that might be it, but I'm going from gigamonkeys
2017-08-14T19:50:47Z gremdrus: (defun foo (&key ((:apple a)) ((:box b) 0) ((:charlie c) 0 c-supplied-p))   (list a b c c-supplied-p))
2017-08-14T19:51:14Z _rumbler31: (&key here ^ starts the beginning of the arg list for defun
2017-08-14T19:51:54Z _rumbler31: er
2017-08-14T19:52:28Z gremdrus: now I am getting:   Required argument is not a symbol: (&KEY :PATH PATH)
2017-08-14T19:52:43Z sjl: technically (&key ((:path path))) should *work*, it's just needlessly obtuse
2017-08-14T19:53:02Z sjl: aha
2017-08-14T19:53:04Z sjl: the problem is (defun parse-year (url (&key ((:path path))))
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2017-08-14T19:53:12Z sjl: you don't need the parens around &key ...
2017-08-14T19:53:29Z sjl: it shoudl just be (defun p-y (url &key ((:path path)) ...)
2017-08-14T19:53:40Z sjl: or just (defun p-y (url &key path)
2017-08-14T19:53:46Z Xach: that is way better
2017-08-14T19:53:48Z _rumbler31: additionally, isn't a keyword argument to a function exposed by the name, not the keyword?
2017-08-14T19:53:55Z Xach uses ((:x y) z) from time to time
2017-08-14T19:54:32Z Xach: in the s3 library, it's &key ((:credentials *credentials*) *credentials*) iirc
2017-08-14T19:54:43Z Xach: I suppose that's ((:x y) y)
2017-08-14T19:55:12Z sjl: ... does that dynamically bind *credentials* based on the kwarg?
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2017-08-14T19:57:04Z sjl: huh, apparently it does
2017-08-14T19:57:06Z sjl: TIL
2017-08-14T19:57:39Z Xach: it can be helpful to propagate a temporary setting into the dynamic environment
2017-08-14T19:57:57Z gremdrus: now I am getting: odd number of &KEY arguments https://gist.github.com/gremdrus/aed0062155d44b48286d15bedcfca084
2017-08-14T19:58:08Z Xach: a little easier than binding around the call all the time, to me
2017-08-14T19:58:35Z Xach: but the lambda list is a little uglier
2017-08-14T19:58:49Z sjl: gremdrus: it would help if we had the full error, like where is it complaining about an odd number of key args?
2017-08-14T19:59:14Z gremdrus: sjl: https://gist.github.com/gremdrus/0646a8ed596921b24547cae16c4ce5e2
2017-08-14T19:59:46Z gremdrus: the main function I believe cl-gaincapital-download
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2017-08-14T20:00:51Z sjl: gremdrus: you're calling the main function as (cl-gaincapital-download some-string)
2017-08-14T20:01:00Z sjl: but you've said it takes a keyword argument
2017-08-14T20:01:02Z sjl: of path
2017-08-14T20:01:06Z sjl: (defun cl-gaincapital-download (&key path)
2017-08-14T20:01:17Z gremdrus: sjl: you're right! I am an idiot today.
2017-08-14T20:01:19Z sjl: so you need to call it like (cl-gaincapital-download :path ...)
2017-08-14T20:01:25Z sjl: or make it a normal arg
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2017-08-14T20:06:17Z gremdrus: thank you guys!
2017-08-14T20:06:40Z shka: sjl: ofc it does
2017-08-14T20:06:58Z shka: everything that establishes binding behaves the same way
2017-08-14T20:07:15Z sjl: yeah I guess I just never thought to try that
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2017-08-14T20:17:33Z phoe: gosh
2017-08-14T20:17:50Z phoe: I'm working on a ｍａｓｓｉｖｅ chunk of text
2017-08-14T20:18:10Z phoe: and the first thing I'll do after publishing it is posting it to /r/lisp and hackernews
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2017-08-14T20:19:42Z axion: Yay CLUS
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2017-08-14T20:22:49Z phoe: axion: not CLUS
2017-08-14T20:22:58Z phoe: but yes, I remember about it ;)
2017-08-14T20:23:00Z axion: Yay Expert Questions
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2017-08-14T20:25:21Z phoe: axion: god damn it, you and your lucky self
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2017-08-14T20:37:42Z phoe: There: https://gist.github.com/phoe/d93f968f22bbcc87070cdc5831762021 <- this is a non-public preview.
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2017-08-14T20:38:12Z phoe: tl;dr: I grabbed all the comments I found and reparsed them into something more readable, and also added mine.
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2017-08-14T20:44:13Z phoe: Proper link: https://blog.teknik.io/phoe/p/365
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2017-08-14T20:45:02Z Ellenor: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqlsFuZwesI
2017-08-14T20:45:49Z phoe: Ellenor: why do you post this on #lisp?
2017-08-14T20:46:14Z phoe: how is it related to Lisp?
2017-08-14T20:46:38Z Ellenor: it's not
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2017-08-14T20:47:32Z phoe: Ellenor: so please take it to #lispcafe if anywhere.
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2017-08-14T20:49:59Z pjb: phoe: re: github, one problem is that github is github.COM and is located in the USA ; gitlab on the other hand was gitorious.ORG and was located in Europe.  At a time when network or github failures meant that European workers were stuck half a day without being able to push to the central repository, and considering that most CL libraries are freedom software, and not privative COMmercial software, it would seem more logical to 
2017-08-14T20:49:59Z pjb: gitorious.ORG than github.COM.
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2017-08-14T20:50:26Z pjb: phoe: on the other hand, nowadays, gitorious has been bought by gitlab.COM, but there's framagit.ORG which is located in France.
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2017-08-14T20:51:44Z pjb: phoe: there are also licensing restrictions that were imposed by github with some self generated FUD. (It seems they're cleared it up, but still, the point remains that if you use only one such repository, you're at the mercy of the US enterprise and their shareholder).
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2017-08-14T20:55:07Z phoe: pjb: added. Thanks!
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2017-08-14T21:02:53Z phoe: (I'll gladly accept some HN upvotes, too. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15012678)
2017-08-14T21:04:08Z akkad: (fboundp 'swank-repl:create-repl)
2017-08-14T21:04:25Z akkad: so much easier
2017-08-14T21:04:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: phoe: cool, I'm an expert now :)
2017-08-14T21:04:43Z phoe: fiddlerwoaroof: so am I. swag
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2017-08-14T21:15:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: This is a bit naïve, but I think it solves most of my html sanitization problems:
2017-08-14T21:15:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://github.com/fiddlerwoaroof/html-sanitizer
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2017-08-14T21:17:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: Shinmera: I'm using a variant of TeMPOraL's code in this issue: https://github.com/Shinmera/plump/issues/7  I'm not sure what the best way to add an html-compliant serialization mode is.
2017-08-14T21:17:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://github.com/fiddlerwoaroof/html-sanitizer/blob/master/html-sanitizer.lisp#L6
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2017-08-14T21:20:25Z sukaeto: fiddlerwoaroof: fwiw, that looks similar to approaches I've applied in the past (except I just changed tags not on the whitlelist into <div>s or some such)
2017-08-14T21:21:10Z sukaeto: just in case validation from some dude on the internet, who's presented no credentials, and who hasn't particularly considered/researched in depth the security implications of such an approach means anything to you at all :-D
2017-08-14T21:21:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: :)
2017-08-14T21:21:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, with this sort of things the best thing is to get a bunch of eyes on it
2017-08-14T21:22:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: And, hopefully other users :)
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2017-08-14T21:52:28Z Posterdati: seems that iolib won't work on openbsd due to differences in errno.h
2017-08-14T21:52:35Z Posterdati: with linux
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2017-08-14T21:54:03Z pjb: Yeah, C macros are bitches.
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2017-08-14T21:54:22Z pjb: You could use my cpp parser to read errno.h and get the values at run-time.
2017-08-14T21:54:46Z Posterdati: I already patched and submitted time ago, but still no change in iolib
2017-08-14T21:54:50Z pjb: Unless you can ensure that they won't change between compilation-time and run-time.
2017-08-14T21:55:05Z Shinmera: fiddlerwoaroof: The best way would be to do what I mention in the OP, I guess.
2017-08-14T21:55:28Z Shinmera: fiddlerwoaroof: Though I'm not sure myself, hence why I haven't resolved the issue yet.
2017-08-14T21:57:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I don't really want to depend on the server's configuration for proper operation.  It might be a good idea to add an optional serializer argument to the serialize function?
2017-08-14T21:57:19Z Posterdati: I do not know why lispers don't like openbsd as develop platform... For certain things is far superior to linux
2017-08-14T21:57:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: That way, if you defined a protocol for such objects, users could add whatever features they need.
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2017-08-14T21:58:30Z Shinmera: fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, that's another option and I don't know if it's better.
2017-08-14T21:58:39Z Shinmera: I'll try to devote some brain cells to the problem in the coming days
2017-08-14T21:58:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: Thanks
2017-08-14T21:58:51Z Shinmera: right now it's midnight and doing any coding work would just result in bad stuff.
2017-08-14T21:59:20Z Posterdati: Shinmera: :) right!
2017-08-14T22:00:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: Also, I don't know if anyone here is in the LA / Santa Barbara area, but it would be great to have some more lispers at https://www.meetup.com/codecraftgroup/events/242348019/
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2017-08-14T22:13:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: Every once in I while, I wish I had the ability to create anonymous generic functions
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2017-08-14T22:16:08Z _rumbler31: how?
2017-08-14T22:17:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: I don't know :)  I suspect one could create a generic function metaobject and then add methods to it using the MOP
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2017-08-14T22:36:56Z phoe: fiddlerwoaroof: d'oh
2017-08-14T22:37:00Z phoe: of course you can do that
2017-08-14T22:37:02Z phoe: exactly using the MOP
2017-08-14T22:37:23Z phoe: instantiate anonymous generics, instantiate anonymous methods, add methods to generic
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2017-08-14T22:45:22Z phoe: ...is there a macro that eases this process?
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2017-08-14T22:45:56Z Bike: not really.
2017-08-14T22:46:01Z phoe: there should be one
2017-08-14T22:46:32Z Bike: usually you use defgeneric, and that's kind of oriented in a different way since it can reinitialize existing functions.
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2017-08-14T22:47:50Z phoe: I kind of wish there was a (make-generic) that creates a new generic function object, ready to funcall
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2017-08-14T22:48:39Z phoe: that you can then extend with (add-anonymous-method generic-instance ((foo string) (bar integer)) (print string) (* 2 integer))
2017-08-14T22:48:49Z phoe: that is the simplest API that I can think of
2017-08-14T22:48:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm throwing together something...
2017-08-14T22:49:15Z phoe: then (funcall generic-instance "dsksjdh" 42)
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2017-08-14T23:10:46Z dim: phoe: what's the problem with defgeneric/defmethod that you want to solve?
2017-08-14T23:11:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's just a lot of boilerplate on the repl
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2017-08-14T23:11:46Z dim: then don't do it at the repl
2017-08-14T23:11:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: That's not very lispy :)
2017-08-14T23:12:07Z dim: with SLIME it's really easy to type in a .lisp file and C-M-x your expressions to load them in the running image
2017-08-14T23:12:17Z dim: then you can switch to the REPL and play with the function
2017-08-14T23:12:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: Sure, but anonymous functions can be useful anyways
2017-08-14T23:12:33Z dim: you even have C-c C-y to write a function call on the REPL for you from your source file
2017-08-14T23:12:40Z dim: they're called lambdas
2017-08-14T23:12:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: Sure, but those don't have multiple dispatch
2017-08-14T23:13:05Z dim: nope for that you need to define a protocol with defgeneric
2017-08-14T23:13:12Z dim: I don't understand what you're trying to achieve ;-)
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2017-08-14T23:15:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: Think of a generic function that maps a callback over a tree containing nodes of different classes: the callback could be something you define with defgeneric but, in some cases, but (a) that requires giving the generic function a name, which isn't always easy and (b) it adds a lot of boilerplate for a "throwaway" function
2017-08-14T23:15:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, also, (c) anonymous generic functions are a great excuse to play with the MOP
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2017-08-14T23:30:58Z Bike: http://sprunge.us/jicE think that works.
2017-08-14T23:31:08Z Bike: probably missing some subtletites.
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2017-08-14T23:42:10Z Bike: oh, forgot to actually do anything with the methods. eh.
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