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(Or its fork, at least.) 2017-06-16T02:20:43Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-06-16T02:22:24Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-06-16T02:23:12Z p9s quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-06-16T02:23:22Z p9s joined #lisp 2017-06-16T02:24:50Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-06-16T02:27:20Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-06-16T02:27:44Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-06-16T02:28:00Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-06-16T02:28:13Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-06-16T02:28:41Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2017-06-16T02:29:38Z Merv_ joined #lisp 2017-06-16T02:30:14Z setheus quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-06-16T02:31:32Z p9s quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-06-16T02:31:52Z setheus joined #lisp 2017-06-16T02:32:01Z p9s joined #lisp 2017-06-16T02:32:50Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-06-16T02:36:25Z p9s quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-06-16T02:42:39Z ebrasca: random_numbers: what do you mean with "Plan 9"? 2017-06-16T02:44:37Z zdsjqzrlbo: plan 9 sucks 2017-06-16T02:44:39Z zdsjqzrlbo: just use unix 2017-06-16T02:45:23Z ebrasca: mezzano is better 2017-06-16T02:46:15Z White_Flame: the 2 biggest complexity bottlenecks of Unix are streams-of-bytes and heirarchical filesystems. Plan 9 doubles down on those 2017-06-16T02:46:40Z ebrasca: what is "Plan 9"? 2017-06-16T02:46:41Z zdsjqzrlbo: huh 2017-06-16T02:46:47Z zdsjqzrlbo: hierarchical fs is ont complex 2017-06-16T02:46:59Z White_Flame: ebrasca: google it. it's basically a research project to re-do Unix 2017-06-16T02:47:12Z White_Flame: zdsjqzrlbo: it is. You ahve to choose a singular parent, for cases where there are legitimately multiples 2017-06-16T02:47:21Z zdsjqzrlbo: example plz 2017-06-16T02:47:23Z White_Flame: and that complects designs 2017-06-16T02:47:26Z zdsjqzrlbo: also 2017-06-16T02:47:28Z zdsjqzrlbo: hard links bro 2017-06-16T02:47:32Z zdsjqzrlbo: u can have multiple parents 2017-06-16T02:47:32Z White_Flame: organize your photographs by date or location? 2017-06-16T02:47:43Z zdsjqzrlbo: that's what a database is for 2017-06-16T02:47:47Z White_Flame: simple stuff like that starts to get horrible 2017-06-16T02:47:55Z White_Flame: except Unix doesn't have a database; it has a filesystem 2017-06-16T02:48:08Z zdsjqzrlbo: if only there was a way to run a database on unix 2017-06-16T02:48:12Z White_Flame: sure 2017-06-16T02:48:15Z White_Flame: but it's a poor model 2017-06-16T02:48:23Z teggi joined #lisp 2017-06-16T02:48:27Z White_Flame: same problems in OO, bringing in the new thinking of composition over inheritance 2017-06-16T02:48:33Z zdsjqzrlbo: it would be 1000x worse to try to put a database into the operating system 2017-06-16T02:48:59Z Zhivago: Given that the heirarchical file-system is a database, I don't see why. 2017-06-16T02:49:01Z White_Flame: any super tight coupling always breeds problems of overcommitment to a linkage and bad scope creep 2017-06-16T02:49:34Z zdsjqzrlbo: i can't believe i'm listening to people in #lisp hate on unix 2017-06-16T02:49:36Z Zhivago: The only interesting questions are how to uniquely identify things, and how to identify sets of things given constraints. 2017-06-16T02:49:39Z zdsjqzrlbo: of course unix is bad, we should just have lisp machines 2017-06-16T02:49:41Z zdsjqzrlbo: that would be much better 2017-06-16T02:49:44Z zdsjqzrlbo: resurrect symbolics 2017-06-16T02:49:52Z zdsjqzrlbo: oh wait, we already tried that 2017-06-16T02:50:59Z Zhivago: The important quality of hierarchy for unix is that it ensures every file exists on a single device -- and if you remove that restriction you'll need to solve that in another way. 2017-06-16T02:51:02Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2017-06-16T02:52:01Z White_Flame: zdsjqzrlbo: some of my ranting on the subject: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13779293 2017-06-16T02:52:27Z ebrasca: zdsjqzrlbo: mezzano is good 2017-06-16T02:52:32Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-06-16T02:52:42Z ebrasca: zdsjqzrlbo: it start on my computer 2017-06-16T02:54:32Z teggi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-06-16T02:55:34Z whoman quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-06-16T02:56:03Z White_Flame: I especially stand by my response at the bottom of the page, against ad-hoc text files 2017-06-16T02:56:29Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-06-16T02:56:44Z teggi_ joined #lisp 2017-06-16T02:56:45Z Zhivago: So you want formal schema for all files? 2017-06-16T02:57:19Z White_Flame: The only "real" solution is for AI to be the OS of a personal computer, so it "understands" and can work with whatever 2017-06-16T02:58:11Z Zhivago: Or to reconsider the question of what 'work with whatever' means. 2017-06-16T02:58:16Z White_Flame: heck, even plain JSON config files are way better to work with programmatically, because the machine can make sense of it, as opposed to an ad-hoc pile of magic white space and punctuators 2017-06-16T02:58:40Z Zhivago: Why is ad hoc JSON better than ad hoc not-JSON? 2017-06-16T02:58:41Z White_Flame: there's only 1 decision to make: Which common standard does it conform to? And then everything else is clear 2017-06-16T02:59:06Z White_Flame: because at least while the information is ad-hoc, the formatting is standardized 2017-06-16T02:59:06Z Zhivago: Conforming to JSON isn't going to give you any useful semantic properties. 2017-06-16T02:59:23Z Zhivago: So, why are you concentrating on the least interesting aspect -- formatting? 2017-06-16T02:59:51Z White_Flame: because it's an impedance mismatch barrier and the source of many bugs when pursuing automation and interoperability 2017-06-16T03:00:15Z White_Flame: again, it's the difference between single-program perspective and ecosystem perspective. individual programs work with their own data, fine 2017-06-16T03:00:40Z Zhivago: All it saves is writing a parser. Now you've picked a common parser -- rework your argument in this context and see that you've solved no interesting problem. 2017-06-16T03:00:43Z White_Flame: but no 1 program does everything for you; we need general tools 2017-06-16T03:01:16Z White_Flame: even above, if you dumped all your photos into a database, then your image viewer can't access it, because computers are based on commonly-accessed files. Once you leave that realm, you lose more interoperability 2017-06-16T03:01:58Z Zhivago: And using JSON won't help, because it won't understand what "id" means in this context. 2017-06-16T03:02:10Z White_Flame: and without interoperability, you lose the ability to actually command your machine 2017-06-16T03:02:34Z White_Flame: Zhivago: yes, but you can usually _simply_ link things together once they're in that state 2017-06-16T03:02:38Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-06-16T03:02:49Z White_Flame: and it's just a rough example. There is no true solution until the magic AI appears 2017-06-16T03:02:53Z Zhivago: How can you link things together when you don't know what they mean? 2017-06-16T03:03:05Z Merv_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-06-16T03:03:18Z Zhivago: And this is the fundamental problem, which you've missed, and which makes most of these objections irrelevant. 2017-06-16T03:03:24Z whiteline_ joined #lisp 2017-06-16T03:03:43Z Zhivago: Your image viewer and the files it understands are in a relationship of shared semantics -- they can interoperate with those semantics. 2017-06-16T03:03:53Z White_Flame: I'm not talking about reverse engineering unknown data. I'm talking about cases of putting my data somewhere, and now I can only interact with it through one application. Or, I can't easily configure an application because its ocnfiguration data is not exposed, or is difficult to process, or isn't rescanned at runtime, etc 2017-06-16T03:04:06Z Zhivago: Your file browser and the filesystems it understands are in a relationship of shared semantics -- they can interoperate with those semantics. 2017-06-16T03:04:14Z White_Flame: yep 2017-06-16T03:04:34Z Zhivago: How the hell those files are represented just doesn't matter, which is why using JSON doesn't fix anything. 2017-06-16T03:04:37Z White_Flame: but, it's a coursely-permissioned, single-parent heirarchy, which ends up being weaker when used as a primary organization structure 2017-06-16T03:04:48Z Zhivago: That's also irrelevant. 2017-06-16T03:04:52Z White_Flame: grokking and automating config files is a separate problem than organization 2017-06-16T03:05:08Z White_Flame: (especially when you get into Windows) 2017-06-16T03:05:14Z Zhivago: Then think of the semantics that are significant to helping with those problems. 2017-06-16T03:05:37Z White_Flame: there's 2: the magic all-encompassing schema of everything, or the magic all-encompassing AI running everything 2017-06-16T03:05:46Z Zhivago: Nonsense. 2017-06-16T03:06:01Z Zhivago: There are many overlapping domains of mutual semantics. 2017-06-16T03:06:27Z Zhivago: A understands B, C understands A, D understands A and B. B understands B. 2017-06-16T03:06:31Z White_Flame: but really, one of the coufnounding factors is that people don't write applications that are capable of being driven externally 2017-06-16T03:06:58Z whiteline quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-06-16T03:07:11Z White_Flame: and so we can't use "unix philosophy" to tack together interesting little tools to accomplish new workflows easily 2017-06-16T03:07:27Z emma__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-06-16T03:07:28Z White_Flame: it's a many-faceted annoyance 2017-06-16T03:08:03Z Zhivago: Well, they're all capable of being driven externally -- it's more a question of the convenience and lack of well defined semantics. 2017-06-16T03:08:32Z White_Flame: obviously, the Lisp machine model does tackle a lot of this, because everything shares an object system, functions are exposed as callable functions, and serialization is not necessary to communicate across domains 2017-06-16T03:09:05Z White_Flame: obviously, there's still some object heirarchy impedance, and security is difficult 2017-06-16T03:09:21Z Zhivago: The lisp machine model doesn't tackle any of these problems, to be honest. 2017-06-16T03:09:39Z Zhivago: It does make some things less inconvenient. 2017-06-16T03:10:13Z Zhivago: But if you take a CLIM application that wasn't designed to be used as a library, good luck using it as a library. 2017-06-16T03:10:31Z Zhivago: It you pass an s-exp that isn't in the form expected, good luck with that. 2017-06-16T03:10:59Z ebrasca: Zhivago: better is better 2017-06-16T03:11:03Z White_Flame: right, that ontological issue will always remain as long as computers are programmed by rote 2017-06-16T03:11:41Z Zhivago: Even when they aren't. 2017-06-16T03:12:07Z Zhivago: When you have AIs, you'll have the problem of determining if you share the same understanding of things. 2017-06-16T03:12:09Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-06-16T03:12:27Z ebrasca: Zhivago: Lisp machine model have 1 sintax 2017-06-16T03:12:27Z Zhivago: I'd say that the fundamental problem here is simple economics. 2017-06-16T03:12:34Z Zhivago: ebrasca: That's complete bullshit. 2017-06-16T03:12:43Z ebrasca: Zhivago: why? 2017-06-16T03:12:46Z Zhivago: ebrasca: What does (a b c) mean? 2017-06-16T03:12:59Z White_Flame: sure, but in that hypothetical, tools exist to tackle the mismatched ontologies. it's not just a total complete unworkable situation 2017-06-16T03:13:04Z ebrasca: Zhivago: function a with b c arguments 2017-06-16T03:13:11Z Zhivago: ebrasca: Wrong. 2017-06-16T03:13:28Z White_Flame: (he did say syntax (well, "sintax")) 2017-06-16T03:14:05Z Zhivago: ebrasca: What it means depends on the context. 2017-06-16T03:14:36Z Zhivago: ebrasca: That might well be a macro invocation, or involve symbol-macros, or have imported symbols from another package, or have a divergent reader, or ... 2017-06-16T03:15:03Z Zhivago: ebrasca: It might be a parameter of something that doesn't evaluate it, such as quote. 2017-06-16T03:15:33Z ebrasca: S-expressions 2017-06-16T03:15:39Z Zhivago: What lisp gives you here is a heirarchical textual structure -- which makes some things more convenient -- but is still essentially just arbitrary text. 2017-06-16T03:16:01Z Zhivago: s-expression doesn't mean anything other than being form of atoms or forms. 2017-06-16T03:16:02Z White_Flame: unless you're fiddling with reader macros, it tends to be objects, not just character streams 2017-06-16T03:16:18Z White_Flame: and that's already a huge step up for interop 2017-06-16T03:16:53Z teggi_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-06-16T03:17:02Z Zhivago: Except that you still need to serialize them, at which point you'll find exciting problems with disagreements on representation, e.g., of floats. 2017-06-16T03:17:41Z White_Flame: but in any case, my main thrust is that it's good to realize the problems and limitations even of your preferred systems. "I can't believe people diss Unix!" etc, isn't really useful. Everything has problems and limitations, and being aware of them helps shape useful ideas moving forward 2017-06-16T03:18:16Z teggi joined #lisp 2017-06-16T03:18:48Z Zhivago: Certainly. 2017-06-16T03:18:57Z Zhivago: Everything sucks, and it's useful to understand why. 2017-06-16T03:19:23Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2017-06-16T03:19:59Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-06-16T03:20:04Z Zhivago: Personally, I've come to think that the unix model isn't particularly terrible -- files, filesystems, processes -- but these should ideally be details the user isn't exposed to. 2017-06-16T03:20:15Z Zhivago: I think android comes closest to realizing that. 2017-06-16T03:20:31Z random_numbers: At the expense of becoming a terribly hard to customize and explore system. 2017-06-16T03:20:52Z random_numbers: The curiosity to learn more comes from being able to pull at the seams and see what lurks beneath. 2017-06-16T03:20:56Z Zhivago: I don't think that's true -- there are lots of exploration tools for android. 2017-06-16T03:21:12Z Zhivago: And you have the option to do that as well if you like -- install a shell. 2017-06-16T03:21:17Z enzuru quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-06-16T03:21:35Z Zhivago: But since things are designed for people who don't do that, there are common protocols for communication between things. 2017-06-16T03:21:38Z random_numbers: Without rooting you won't get far. 2017-06-16T03:22:06Z Zhivago: It's this consensus that is really needed to address what white flame was complaining about. 2017-06-16T03:22:25Z ebrasca: I don't like android. 2017-06-16T03:22:36Z ebrasca: You can't work with it. 2017-06-16T03:23:17Z White_Flame: when my navigation program broke with an update, there was no way for me to reasonably extract my stored locations 2017-06-16T03:23:18Z Zhivago: And while the file-system is hierarchical, no-one notices, because there is generally no need to interact with it in that matter. 2017-06-16T03:23:36Z random_numbers: I can agree with objects. But the difference is hackability. Hacking Lisp is easy. Android is pretty opaque in comparison. 2017-06-16T03:23:46Z White_Flame: android has interop on contacts & such, but not really on general information 2017-06-16T03:24:04Z Zhivago: white: That's because there is no economic solution to the general problem. 2017-06-16T03:24:10Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-06-16T03:24:28Z Zhivago: white: How would you do it? Get everyone to agree on how to represent locations? 2017-06-16T03:24:30Z White_Flame: well, I could get started on my other rant on how silicon valley is destroying computing ;) 2017-06-16T03:24:30Z brandonz joined #lisp 2017-06-16T03:25:10Z White_Flame: Zhivago: no, I wouldn't mind converting it from an accesible format. But I don't know where it is, how it's stored, etc. 2017-06-16T03:25:15Z Zhivago: bbiaw 2017-06-16T03:25:18Z White_Flame: I'm sure I could pull it off with lots of reverse engineering 2017-06-16T03:25:48Z White_Flame: and I might, as there are dozens of locations of places I travel to on about a yearly basis that a super convenient/important to have on hand 2017-06-16T03:25:57Z White_Flame: s/a/are/ 2017-06-16T03:26:33Z White_Flame: but that's only half the problem. Programmatically injecting that data into another program is harder than just a read-only extraction task 2017-06-16T03:26:39Z random_numbers: White_Flame: I would be curious. 2017-06-16T03:27:09Z White_Flame: especially if I just have name/latitude/longitude, that's not really enterable from the UI of a gps nav program 2017-06-16T03:27:31Z White_Flame: but, on a hypothetical Lisp machine, these sorts of things would be at least a bit more exposed 2017-06-16T03:27:57Z White_Flame: and the ability for a user to bridge information between programs becomes much more practical 2017-06-16T03:31:22Z mejja quit (Quit: \ No newline at end of file) 2017-06-16T03:31:56Z whiteline_ is now known as whiteline 2017-06-16T03:33:10Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-06-16T03:34:24Z ebrasca: Can someone here understand mezzano Lisp system? 2017-06-16T03:34:39Z eschatologist: I've been thinking about writing some Lisp code to talk to a web service that uses OAuth2. I've found OAuth 1 through 1.0a libraries, but is there any simple OAuth2 solution? 2017-06-16T03:34:53Z eschatologist: ebrasca: What's your question? Some of us here understand Mezzano. 2017-06-16T03:35:00Z eschatologist: (And Lisp machines.) 2017-06-16T03:36:21Z ebrasca: I like Lisp machines but I can find any with good text editor and org-mode. 2017-06-16T03:36:42Z mhd joined #lisp 2017-06-16T03:38:34Z ebrasca: Is there some easy path to have good editor in mezzano? 2017-06-16T03:42:36Z S1ohy joined #lisp 2017-06-16T03:45:08Z teggi quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-06-16T03:45:08Z ebrasca: How to run ansi-test on mezzano? 2017-06-16T03:47:25Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-06-16T03:59:53Z Merv_ joined #lisp 2017-06-16T04:00:11Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2017-06-16T04:00:56Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2017-06-16T04:01:07Z eschatologist: The path to having a good editor in Mezzano is to write one. 2017-06-16T04:01:13Z eschatologist: There's already the start of an emacs-like editor. 2017-06-16T04:01:39Z eschatologist: Figure out how it's structured and start adding to it. 2017-06-16T04:03:36Z ebrasca: eschatologist: I try to run ansi-test on mezzano because froggey say I can find with it how to help. 2017-06-16T04:04:21Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-06-16T04:04:36Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-06-16T04:05:06Z eschatologist: froggey suggested that you obtain ansi-test and then use it to find bugs to fix. 2017-06-16T04:05:58Z ebrasca: eschatologist: I try to load it to mezzano. But I can't load it. 2017-06-16T04:06:14Z eschatologist: What did you try? 2017-06-16T04:06:31Z ebrasca: (load "ansi-test/symbols/load.lsp") 2017-06-16T04:07:21Z ebrasca: it give "Undefined function COMPILE-AND-LOAD." 2017-06-16T04:09:28Z eschatologist: Why did you do that, rather than (load "doit.lsp") 2017-06-16T04:10:30Z ebrasca: Your load give "Undefined function COMPILE-AND-LOAD." 2017-06-16T04:10:57Z pjb: And use a fuzzer! 2017-06-16T04:11:15Z karswell` joined #lisp 2017-06-16T04:12:13Z ebrasca: pjb: fuzzer ? 2017-06-16T04:13:02Z S1ohy left #lisp 2017-06-16T04:20:12Z pjb: eg. https://github.com/aoh/radamsa 2017-06-16T04:20:32Z pjb: https://fuzzing-project.org 2017-06-16T04:21:25Z onehrxn joined #lisp 2017-06-16T04:22:11Z eschatologist: I think just getting any tests working to start is a better strategy. 2017-06-16T04:24:11Z ebrasca: eschatologist: Now it load thanks to "(load "/home/ebrasca/quicklisp/local-projects/MBuild/Mezzano/ansi-test/compile-and-load.lsp")" 2017-06-16T04:25:01Z ebrasca: Now whait for mi output of mezzano. 2017-06-16T04:25:47Z eschatologist: I wonder if anyone's attempted to run ansi-test on Genera. 2017-06-16T04:26:00Z eschatologist wouldn't even bother to try on Explorer or LMI 2017-06-16T04:27:13Z vtomole joined #lisp 2017-06-16T04:31:05Z brendyn quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-06-16T04:34:00Z Harag1 joined #lisp 2017-06-16T04:34:16Z Merv_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-06-16T04:35:10Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-06-16T04:35:11Z Harag1 is now known as Harag 2017-06-16T04:41:30Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-06-16T04:41:38Z nocaberi is now known as Sauvin 2017-06-16T04:57:44Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-06-16T05:01:57Z segmond joined #lisp 2017-06-16T05:02:20Z dec0n joined #lisp 2017-06-16T05:07:20Z daemoz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-06-16T05:07:39Z daemoz joined #lisp 2017-06-16T05:09:42Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-06-16T05:10:43Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-06-16T05:10:53Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-06-16T05:13:52Z Guest67551 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-06-16T05:14:02Z anon joined #lisp 2017-06-16T05:14:25Z anon is now known as Guest38463 2017-06-16T05:20:22Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-06-16T05:22:44Z onehrxn quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-06-16T05:23:23Z onehrxn joined #lisp 2017-06-16T05:24:36Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-06-16T05:27:55Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-06-16T05:30:00Z rk[ghost]: anyone know if cl-readline has a functino to clear the screen? 2017-06-16T05:31:06Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-06-16T05:32:38Z Guest38463 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-06-16T05:34:27Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-06-16T05:38:49Z anon_ joined #lisp 2017-06-16T05:39:49Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2017-06-16T05:47:20Z vtomole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-06-16T05:49:58Z adolf_stalin quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-06-16T05:52:59Z bugbug quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-06-16T05:53:42Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-06-16T05:58:01Z casper_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-06-16T05:58:47Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-06-16T05:59:08Z gingerale joined #lisp 2017-06-16T05:59:11Z slyrus_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-06-16T06:01:53Z pjb: rk[ghost]: the answer is yes: somebody knows. 2017-06-16T06:01:55Z oleo quit (Quit: irc client terminated!) 2017-06-16T06:02:43Z pjb: This is really the wrong question to ask. You're asking about people when you have a technical problem. You're asking about a specific library (a specific solution), when you want to solve a specific problem. 2017-06-16T06:03:00Z pjb: This is very irritating, and probably why you don't get any answer. 2017-06-16T06:04:00Z pjb: Furthermore, if the question is whether cl-readline provides it, then you could answer yourself trivially (just scan the f... list of functions provided by cl-readline). 2017-06-16T06:04:15Z pjb: So try to ask a good question instead. 2017-06-16T06:07:20Z Harag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-06-16T06:07:22Z Harag1 joined #lisp 2017-06-16T06:10:08Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2017-06-16T06:11:58Z Harag1 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-06-16T06:12:25Z rk[ghost]: -.- 2017-06-16T06:13:10Z diegs_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-06-16T06:13:22Z rk[ghost]: if the answer to my first question is 'no it doesn't have the function' then my question of 'what is it?' is irrelevant 2017-06-16T06:13:40Z onehrxn quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-06-16T06:13:52Z rk[ghost]: i find it more irritating when people understand me, but pick at my semantics. 2017-06-16T06:14:19Z rk[ghost]: i tried to read through the docs of functions and none of them /seemed/ like they do it. 2017-06-16T06:14:19Z onehrxn joined #lisp 2017-06-16T06:15:06Z rk[ghost]: when i asked a specific question before: i was pointing to a list of 10 or so libraries 2017-06-16T06:15:18Z rk[ghost]: s/pointing/pointed 2017-06-16T06:15:22Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-06-16T06:17:21Z rk[ghost]: so i suppose this question would then be, does gnu readline have the cability to clear a screen or is this handled on another layer? 2017-06-16T06:21:12Z rk[ghost]: but then such question doesn't seem to have relevance in #lisp 2017-06-16T06:22:56Z rk[ghost]: and i believe i understand your friction with 'asking about a particular solution', but from my perspective it is more about asking about a particular environment which ones happens to be in. if the answer is 'in such environment you cannto do that.. pick a different one... then i can aceept that. but often environments are inherited and one is forced to mold a compromise of a solution. 2017-06-16T06:25:12Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-06-16T06:26:06Z shka_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2017-06-16T06:28:33Z rk[ghost]: does anyone around do any tui applications in common lisp? what libraries do ya'll use and how do you feel about them? 2017-06-16T06:29:27Z random_numbers: https://common-lisp.net/project/cl-ncurses/ Haven't used it for Lisp yet but I do use it for basically every other language I use. 2017-06-16T06:30:11Z random_numbers: Though that one seems to be from 2007, probably a better choice somewhre. 2017-06-16T06:30:59Z jackdaniel: cl-charms is often recommended ncurses interface for cl (https://github.com/HiTECNOLOGYs/cl-charms) 2017-06-16T06:31:21Z random_numbers: jackdaniel: Thanks. 2017-06-16T06:31:43Z shka joined #lisp 2017-06-16T06:32:12Z random_numbers: http://www.cliki.net/CL-Ncurses Ah, the wiki does recommend it too. 2017-06-16T06:32:57Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2017-06-16T06:33:08Z random_numbers: Hi. 2017-06-16T06:33:18Z rk[ghost]: so, have ya'll used those libraries yourselves, or just heard them as recommended? 2017-06-16T06:33:29Z beach: random_numbers: In your opinion, what is the role of a "file manager"? 2017-06-16T06:34:26Z rk[ghost]: i haven't learned all the details of ncurses, but doing some investigations it doesn't seem like the greatest framework 2017-06-16T06:34:54Z rk[ghost] would like to see someone rewrite 'ranger' in CL ;P 2017-06-16T06:34:59Z random_numbers: beach: Allow easy access and management of files. Remote server access if a feature I like too (browsing ftp/ssh/webdav/etc). 2017-06-16T06:35:07Z random_numbers: rk[ghost]: That'd be pretty neat. 2017-06-16T06:35:42Z rk[ghost]: i suppose ranger has the ability to call python functions which one could technically set up a foriegn interface to CL bindings.. 2017-06-16T06:35:42Z random_numbers: beach: I'd be inclined to say it should either directly allow modifying metadata or closely integrate with software that does it in its stead. 2017-06-16T06:36:07Z random_numbers: There's also Hy-lang, if you don't mind the similarities it has with clojure. 2017-06-16T06:36:23Z random_numbers: (I like em but not everyone does.) 2017-06-16T06:37:04Z rk[ghost]: one usually likes what one is used to. i am more familiar with CL stylez 2017-06-16T06:37:17Z beach: random_numbers: To me a "file" is just a special case. At least for Unix-style files, it is just a vector of bytes. 2017-06-16T06:37:44Z beach: random_numbers: So there would be no need to have a particular file manager, separate from any other "manager". 2017-06-16T06:38:22Z random_numbers: beach: Hm. I see. I just tend to see them as units more like one would get in say... a database-filesystem. It just reflects my use more closely. 2017-06-16T06:38:43Z random_numbers: Despite the whole "everything is a stream to pipe somewhere" thing inherent to unix. 2017-06-16T06:38:54Z rk[ghost]: a file manager is more of a filesystem displayer. 2017-06-16T06:39:33Z beach: rk[ghost]: The point here is that the document that was the origin of random_numbers's question specifically says that there is no file system. 2017-06-16T06:40:00Z rk[ghost]: right-o. sorry i didn't have context. 2017-06-16T06:40:28Z random_numbers: I must admit that was earlier-enough I was lost for a moment. 2017-06-16T06:41:16Z rk[ghost]: everything as a file is a nice abstraction, but it is curious to ask if it is appropriate for all things computer 2017-06-16T06:41:51Z beach: rk[ghost]: "Everything is a file" is a lousy abstraction. It has ridiculous restrictions that make it very hard to write collaborating applications. 2017-06-16T06:42:14Z beach: rk[ghost]: It was a restriction that was necessary because of the computers at the time. It is anything but "nice". 2017-06-16T06:42:40Z beach: rk[ghost]: The computers being much more powerful these days means that this restriction is no longer necessary. 2017-06-16T06:43:00Z jackdaniel: beach: btw, did you see zeitgeist framework? (it's not lisp, but it acts on similar premises, that file is a lousy abstraction) 2017-06-16T06:43:08Z beach: rk[ghost]: Strangely, many generations of software developers still assume it is a necessary restriction for intrinsic reasons. 2017-06-16T06:43:23Z jackdaniel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeitgeist_(free_software) (reference) 2017-06-16T06:43:27Z random_numbers: Honestly, besides the collision issue and a few usabilities questions (difficulty imagining it), I would say the LispOS file model seems more reasonable from a programmatic and user side. 2017-06-16T06:43:42Z beach: jackdaniel: I did not see it (or maybe a long time ago). I'll have a look. Thanks. 2017-06-16T06:43:57Z random_numbers: Not knowing where my files are is weird if I don't have a fuzzy way to find them incrementally. 2017-06-16T06:44:15Z random_numbers: Having to memorize all the relevant tags would get in the way. 2017-06-16T06:44:19Z Zhivago: It's closer to 'everything is a device', and 'make all devices visible in the filesystem', which aren't particularly terrible ideas. 2017-06-16T06:44:57Z beach: random_numbers: Since it is a strict generalization, I don't see the problem. Anyone who wants to continue to live with those restrictions can do so. Just like you can program in a C style in Common Lisp. 2017-06-16T06:45:29Z jackdaniel: random_numbers: that could be done in the following way: you select one tag you are interested in and "file manager" shows other tags connected with this one 2017-06-16T06:45:33Z random_numbers: beach: I know and I'm trying to understanding. Not quite groking yet. 2017-06-16T06:45:36Z jackdaniel: you don't have to memorize whole tagset 2017-06-16T06:45:46Z beach: random_numbers: And I have no idea what "collision issues" or "usabilities question" you have in mind. 2017-06-16T06:45:47Z random_numbers: s/understanding/understand/ 2017-06-16T06:46:06Z random_numbers: beach: Files with similar or near-identical tags and how to find them quicky and in a practical manner for use. 2017-06-16T06:46:33Z slyrus_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-06-16T06:46:34Z Zhivago: More flexible meta-data support for files would be nice. 2017-06-16T06:46:52Z beach: random_numbers: If you want to, you can have a "directory" object that has a single tag. It can then contain other objects, such as directories and vectors of bytes. 2017-06-16T06:46:58Z salv0 joined #lisp 2017-06-16T06:47:05Z rk[ghost]: beach: aye the stack has a rotten core.. and people keep piling up on top. backwords compability.. finally should be abandoned for a move forward. quit making stuff specifically for x86 running POSIX ;P 2017-06-16T06:47:05Z random_numbers: jackdaniel: With usage tracking a bit ala Zeitgeist, I could see that working very nicely. 2017-06-16T06:47:08Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2017-06-16T06:47:21Z Zhivago: Yes, the apple solution of having directories that look like files was a reasonable approach. 2017-06-16T06:47:26Z rk[ghost]: what are thoughts then on better abstractions for today's machines? 2017-06-16T06:48:01Z beach: rk[ghost]: *sigh* http://metamodular.com/lispos.pdf 2017-06-16T06:48:22Z rk[ghost]: i have only scraped that document.. i really need to read it in full 2017-06-16T06:48:43Z rk[ghost]: i am pretty fond on the idea of 'antikernel' 2017-06-16T06:48:55Z random_numbers: About the cl-readline, readline has a clear-screen command. Not sure if the CL bindings allow access to it. 2017-06-16T06:49:00Z rk[ghost]: which doesn't technically require FS at all :P 2017-06-16T06:49:10Z Zhivago: Still nothing there about distribution? 2017-06-16T06:49:36Z Zhivago: rk: Once you view the kernel as a provider of virtual machines ... it gets a lot simpler. 2017-06-16T06:49:42Z rk[ghost]: random_numbers: aye good to know. if it is jus tthe bindings lacking, i can dive deeper knowing not in vain.. add the binding myself. 2017-06-16T06:50:03Z random_numbers: rk[ghost]: https://cnswww.cns.cwru.edu/php/chet/readline/readline.html#fn_C It's about 10th in that list. 2017-06-16T06:51:29Z random_numbers: Given what I think I got out of LispOS, there's no reason the system-level commands couldn't be redundant Actors on a distributed network. 2017-06-16T06:51:44Z random_numbers: Or any command, for that matter. 2017-06-16T06:52:57Z Zhivago: Well, you'd need some kind of multi-process semantics for that to work, unless you're proposing distributed shared memory. 2017-06-16T06:52:59Z random_numbers: rk[ghost]: Seems like the CL library indeed lacks the access. 2017-06-16T06:52:59Z rk[ghost]: random_numbers: grreat. thanks! i will start peeling away the layers of the cl-readline source. 2017-06-16T06:53:14Z rk[ghost]: aye, time to add it then:) 2017-06-16T06:53:28Z Zhivago: And if you're proposing distributed shared memory, it's probably time to look into why it's not really a workable option. 2017-06-16T06:54:00Z rk[ghost]: interprocess communication. may as well isolate memory 2017-06-16T06:54:22Z rk[ghost]: i imagine that there will be distinct chips (open too!) soon enough for any given service.. 2017-06-16T06:54:24Z Zhivago: In which case you need VM or process semantics. 2017-06-16T06:55:04Z rk[ghost]: aye, i think process semantics (adopting OTP principles of the actor model) seems like the right path forward. 2017-06-16T06:55:08Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-06-16T06:55:11Z random_numbers: Need to get going. I'll check by the logs later. 2017-06-16T06:55:21Z random_numbers quit (Quit: gtg) 2017-06-16T06:57:59Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-06-16T06:59:28Z Merv_ joined #lisp 2017-06-16T07:01:29Z larme joined #lisp 2017-06-16T07:03:38Z Merv__ joined #lisp 2017-06-16T07:06:17Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-06-16T07:06:35Z Merv_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-06-16T07:13:36Z watersoul_ joined #lisp 2017-06-16T07:17:07Z watersoul quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-06-16T07:27:30Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-06-16T07:39:26Z daemoz quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.7.1) 2017-06-16T07:44:53Z maarhart joined #lisp 2017-06-16T07:45:04Z Cymew joined #lisp 2017-06-16T07:47:17Z maarhart quit (Client Quit) 2017-06-16T07:51:45Z maarhart joined #lisp 2017-06-16T07:55:08Z krasnal joined #lisp 2017-06-16T07:57:28Z damke joined #lisp 2017-06-16T07:58:10Z maarhart quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-06-16T08:00:04Z nirved joined #lisp 2017-06-16T08:00:28Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-06-16T08:04:00Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-06-16T08:05:02Z phoe: rann: bindings are bindings, you can always hack around it if you can read the TERM variable and issue the proper escape command yourself. 2017-06-16T08:05:30Z jameser quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-06-16T08:05:38Z phoe: this is hackery, but is only worse than a pull request to cl-readline that implements the missing functionality 2017-06-16T08:05:55Z rann: ? 2017-06-16T08:06:04Z phoe: good lord 2017-06-16T08:06:10Z phoe: I wanted to call random_numbers and not rann 2017-06-16T08:06:12Z phoe: sorry 2017-06-16T08:06:28Z rann: hahah no worries, thanks for the tip though :-) 2017-06-16T08:06:53Z phoe: today exclusively on #lisp: unexpected tips and how they can affect your life (more on page 7) 2017-06-16T08:07:28Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-06-16T08:07:33Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-06-16T08:11:35Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-06-16T08:24:44Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-06-16T08:26:27Z yeticry_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-06-16T08:27:15Z ebrasca: phoe: Hi 2017-06-16T08:27:22Z phoe: ebrasca: Hey 2017-06-16T08:27:27Z yeticry joined #lisp 2017-06-16T08:27:53Z ebrasca: phoe: How are you wiki? 2017-06-16T08:28:38Z ebrasca: phoe: how are you doing with Common Lisp UltraSpec? 2017-06-16T08:30:46Z phoe: ebrasca: On hiatus for now - I'm doing other things that my real life requires to be done first. 2017-06-16T08:31:01Z X-Scale quit (Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Now with extra fish!) 2017-06-16T08:32:53Z ebrasca: phoe: I try to help in mezzano. :) 2017-06-16T08:33:23Z phoe: ebrasca: wonderful! 2017-06-16T08:34:19Z ebrasca: phoe: how to find where is my error? 2017-06-16T08:34:33Z phoe: ebrasca: error in what? 2017-06-16T08:37:12Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-06-16T08:37:28Z ebrasca: phoe: I am runing ansi-test and some failed. 2017-06-16T08:37:51Z phoe: ebrasca: I'm not familiar with ansi-test but it should give you some sort of list of what tests failed. 2017-06-16T08:39:16Z ebrasca: phoe: http://ix.io/xzG 2017-06-16T08:39:19Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-06-16T08:40:15Z test1600 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-06-16T08:40:41Z test1600 joined #lisp 2017-06-16T08:41:07Z phoe: ooh 2017-06-16T08:41:27Z phoe: SETF is required to return its second argument as its only return value 2017-06-16T08:41:41Z loke___ joined #lisp 2017-06-16T08:41:43Z phoe: and from what I see, F and (setf (symbol-function sym) F) are distinct 2017-06-16T08:41:58Z phoe: it looks like the function is copied or something, where it should be the same object at the same memory address. 2017-06-16T08:42:28Z ebrasca: but is not in same address. 2017-06-16T08:42:34Z phoe: but it should be. 2017-06-16T08:42:38Z phoe: and this is where the test fails. 2017-06-16T08:42:48Z damke joined #lisp 2017-06-16T08:43:03Z ebrasca: phoe: I don't know where to find it. 2017-06-16T08:43:54Z phoe: ebrasca: ask around for help on #mezzano - this looks complicated and might need changes in either what SETF does or in compiler or some other place. 2017-06-16T08:44:06Z phoe: I don't have enough of a Mezzano beard to help you with that. 2017-06-16T08:44:31Z damke quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-06-16T08:44:52Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-06-16T08:45:01Z damke joined #lisp 2017-06-16T08:45:22Z ebrasca: phoe: Thanks you. 2017-06-16T08:50:50Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-06-16T08:58:05Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-06-16T09:01:30Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-06-16T09:03:52Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-06-16T09:03:59Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-06-16T09:07:41Z onehrxn quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-06-16T09:15:21Z chat_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-06-16T09:16:14Z chat_ joined #lisp 2017-06-16T09:32:19Z nowhereman_ joined #lisp 2017-06-16T09:40:46Z mathrick quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-06-16T09:44:15Z mathrick joined #lisp 2017-06-16T09:52:20Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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Systems in ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ shadow those in quicklisp/dist. 2017-06-16T10:51:44Z onehrxn quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-06-16T10:51:44Z rk[ghost]: i suppose i am unaware what you mean by 'shadow' hence the confusion 2017-06-16T10:52:29Z pjb: like when a variable in an inner scope is shadowed by another of the same name in an outer scope. 2017-06-16T10:54:11Z pjb: well, the opposite. 2017-06-16T10:54:20Z pjb: like when a variable in an OUTER scope is shadowed by another of the same name in an INNER scope. 2017-06-16T10:55:10Z rk[ghost]: ah! okay, understood 2017-06-16T10:55:22Z rk[ghost]: my first interpretation of shadow was mimic 2017-06-16T10:55:48Z rk[ghost]: thanks! 2017-06-16T11:02:40Z onehrxn joined #lisp 2017-06-16T11:05:12Z onehrxn quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-06-16T11:06:08Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-06-16T11:13:53Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2017-06-16T11:15:42Z onehrxn joined #lisp 2017-06-16T11:20:21Z raynold quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-06-16T11:21:07Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-06-16T11:22:54Z daniel-s joined #lisp 2017-06-16T11:23:19Z onehrxn quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-06-16T11:29:45Z onehrxn joined #lisp 2017-06-16T11:30:04Z onehrxn quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-06-16T11:30:08Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-06-16T11:32:23Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-06-16T11:32:56Z onehrxn joined #lisp 2017-06-16T11:32:57Z rk[ghost]: wahoo! my intuition was correct and i was able to break out a function of gnu readline as expecterd 2017-06-16T11:33:10Z rk[ghost]: now my copy has a (rl:clear-screen) function. 2017-06-16T11:33:47Z onehrxn quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-06-16T11:34:31Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-06-16T11:44:09Z onehrxn joined #lisp 2017-06-16T11:48:11Z pjb: Great. 2017-06-16T11:52:18Z onehrxn quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-06-16T11:55:07Z rk[ghost]: thanks for pointing the way pjb and random_numbers 2017-06-16T11:57:04Z daniel-s quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-06-16T12:02:00Z damke joined #lisp 2017-06-16T12:04:03Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-06-16T12:05:26Z zooey quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-06-16T12:06:47Z zooey joined #lisp 2017-06-16T12:07:34Z onehrxn joined #lisp 2017-06-16T12:07:53Z onehrxn quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-06-16T12:10:51Z onehrxn joined #lisp 2017-06-16T12:10:55Z onehrxn quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-06-16T12:15:00Z sbodin joined #lisp 2017-06-16T12:15:05Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-06-16T12:17:23Z onehrxn joined #lisp 2017-06-16T12:17:27Z slyrus_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-06-16T12:18:01Z onehrxn quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-06-16T12:18:51Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-06-16T12:20:17Z onehrxn joined #lisp 2017-06-16T12:21:02Z onehrxn quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-06-16T12:22:19Z onehrxn joined #lisp 2017-06-16T12:22:54Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-06-16T12:23:27Z onehrxn quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-06-16T12:25:26Z thinkpad joined #lisp 2017-06-16T12:26:47Z phoe: rk[ghost]: quicklisp distros are changed once a month AFAIK. you're better off cloning the newest version from github and PRing to it in most cases. 2017-06-16T12:26:50Z phoe: also congrats! 2017-06-16T12:27:22Z rk[ghost]: what is a "distro" wrt quicklisp 2017-06-16T12:27:25Z rk[ghost]: ? 2017-06-16T12:27:34Z rk[ghost]: and i did clone the newest github version 2017-06-16T12:27:49Z rk[ghost]: so i will PR here soonly 2017-06-16T12:28:10Z phoe: (defun rl:clear-screen () (uiop:run-command #+windows "cls" #-windows "/usr/bin/clear")) 2017-06-16T12:28:14Z phoe: I'm so going to hell with this 2017-06-16T12:28:47Z phoe: rk[ghost]: a quicklisp dist is basically a list of all offered systems along with their version. 2017-06-16T12:29:00Z phoe: and the only dist I use is, well, the "quicklisp" dist. 2017-06-16T12:29:26Z phoe: (but I might be very wrong here, this description is based on 50% intuition 50% accidental overhearing) 2017-06-16T12:31:47Z mazoe joined #lisp 2017-06-16T12:31:49Z onehrxn joined #lisp 2017-06-16T12:32:28Z sbodin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-06-16T12:32:38Z onehrxn quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-06-16T12:33:02Z Xach: quicklisp provides a set of libraries that build together, and they are updated on a server once per month. if you call the update function, it will fetch those updates to your computer. otherwise it never locally updates. 2017-06-16T12:33:31Z Xach: if you have a system in an asdf directory somewhere, it will always be loaded before a quicklisp-provided system is loaded 2017-06-16T12:35:13Z Xach: ql:quickload can load anything asdf can load, mostly 2017-06-16T12:35:29Z Xach: but it also adds some special sauce to fetch missing things 2017-06-16T12:35:35Z rk[ghost]: phoe: ha. however, i like the abstraction layer of having gnu readline, such that it only requires that gnu's readline is on a system and not various other x, y, or z userspace tools 2017-06-16T12:35:41Z onehrxn joined #lisp 2017-06-16T12:35:46Z onehrxn quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-06-16T12:36:05Z rk[ghost]: phoe: Xach: thanks much for the clarificaton 2017-06-16T12:37:34Z rk[ghost] *loves* special sauce 2017-06-16T12:37:34Z phoe: rk[ghost]: ;D 2017-06-16T12:38:44Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-06-16T12:39:24Z TDT joined #lisp 2017-06-16T12:40:08Z pve joined #lisp 2017-06-16T12:40:59Z onehrxn joined #lisp 2017-06-16T12:41:21Z onehrxn quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-06-16T12:41:38Z Murii: so what's exactly the deal with ' or QUOTE ? 2017-06-16T12:41:53Z phoe: clhs quote 2017-06-16T12:41:53Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_quote.htm 2017-06-16T12:42:03Z phoe: Murii: do you know the basic rules of evaluation in Lisp? 2017-06-16T12:42:20Z phoe: (+ 2 2) evaluates to 4 2017-06-16T12:42:28Z onehrxn joined #lisp 2017-06-16T12:42:29Z phoe: '(+ 2 2) evaluates to (+ 2 2) 2017-06-16T12:42:42Z phoe: or (quote (+ 2 2)) evaluates to (+ 2 2) 2017-06-16T12:43:20Z onehrxn quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-06-16T12:45:39Z Murii: ah 2017-06-16T12:45:41Z Murii: I think I get it 2017-06-16T12:45:47Z phoe: in other words 2017-06-16T12:46:07Z phoe: let's say that you have a variable called *foo*, it has a value 42 2017-06-16T12:46:16Z phoe: so typing *foo* in the repl will get you 42. 2017-06-16T12:46:30Z phoe: but what if you actually want THE symbol *foo* and not its value as a variable? 2017-06-16T12:46:50Z phoe: (quote *foo*) or '*foo*, when typed into the REPL, will return *FOO* 2017-06-16T12:46:54Z phoe: which is a symbol. 2017-06-16T12:46:58Z phoe: which is what we want here. 2017-06-16T12:47:13Z onehrxn joined #lisp 2017-06-16T12:47:36Z Murii: ah 2017-06-16T12:47:37Z onehrxn quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-06-16T12:47:59Z phoe: and if you want a literal list instead of a function call - just like above. 2017-06-16T12:48:02Z phoe: (+ 2 2) ;=> 4 2017-06-16T12:48:08Z phoe: '(+ 2 2) ;=> (+ 2 2) 2017-06-16T12:48:13Z phoe: in the first case you get a number 2017-06-16T12:48:21Z phoe: in the second case you get a three-element list. 2017-06-16T12:48:31Z rogersm joined #lisp 2017-06-16T12:48:40Z onehrxn joined #lisp 2017-06-16T12:48:46Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2017-06-16T12:48:53Z oleo joined #lisp 2017-06-16T12:49:00Z onehrxn quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-06-16T12:50:16Z phoe: quote is pretty unique to Lisp because it's only really useful in places where you can directly manipulate code as data. 2017-06-16T12:50:18Z dmiles quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-06-16T12:51:11Z phoe: but that's because a majority of other languages don't have the code-is-data trait. 2017-06-16T12:51:18Z beach: Murii: It is similar to the rule in natural languages such as English. So air is something you can breathe, but "air" is a one-syllable word. In the first case, air gets "evaluated" to mean the substance. In the second case, because it is quoted, it refers to the word itself. 2017-06-16T12:51:32Z onehrxn joined #lisp 2017-06-16T12:51:33Z phoe: beach: oh 2017-06-16T12:51:41Z phoe: ...I actually did not realize this before 2017-06-16T12:51:58Z _death: it's also useful for manipulating data as data 2017-06-16T12:52:15Z beach: phoe: Many people don't. Which is why I pointed it out. 2017-06-16T12:52:23Z phoe: beach: today I learned. Thanks! 2017-06-16T12:53:46Z onehrxn quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-06-16T12:59:07Z dmiles joined #lisp 2017-06-16T13:00:50Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-06-16T13:03:50Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-06-16T13:06:20Z onehrxn joined #lisp 2017-06-16T13:07:34Z onehrxn quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-06-16T13:08:06Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-06-16T13:10:35Z mazoe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-06-16T13:11:07Z onehrxn joined #lisp 2017-06-16T13:11:48Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-06-16T13:12:03Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-06-16T13:12:59Z onehrxn quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-06-16T13:14:10Z gingerale quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-06-16T13:15:34Z onehrxn joined #lisp 2017-06-16T13:15:54Z p9s joined #lisp 2017-06-16T13:16:00Z gingerale joined #lisp 2017-06-16T13:16:08Z onehrxn quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-06-16T13:16:24Z p9s quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-06-16T13:17:10Z marvin2 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-06-16T13:18:38Z onehrxn joined #lisp 2017-06-16T13:19:16Z onehrxn quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-06-16T13:20:16Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2017-06-16T13:20:19Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-06-16T13:20:54Z warweasle joined #lisp 2017-06-16T13:20:54Z onehrxn joined #lisp 2017-06-16T13:21:54Z onehrxn quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-06-16T13:23:52Z onehrxn joined #lisp 2017-06-16T13:24:42Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-06-16T13:28:21Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-06-16T13:28:35Z damke_ joined #lisp 2017-06-16T13:31:37Z damke quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-06-16T13:31:45Z damke__ joined #lisp 2017-06-16T13:34:05Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-06-16T13:41:53Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-06-16T13:45:07Z slyrus joined #lisp 2017-06-16T13:46:02Z Xach: mcclim is broken :( 2017-06-16T13:47:59Z rippa joined #lisp 2017-06-16T13:48:26Z Xach: i don't really understand it though. http://report.quicklisp.org/2017-06-16/failure-report/mcclim.html 2017-06-16T13:49:23Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-06-16T13:49:51Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-06-16T13:50:52Z rk[ghost]: err, are quit/exit apart of cl-user? 2017-06-16T13:51:03Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2017-06-16T13:51:32Z slyrus: Xach: this is after a (ql:register-local-projects) ? 2017-06-16T13:51:42Z rk[ghost]: or rather what package are quit/exit in? 2017-06-16T13:53:04Z rk[ghost]: aha found it! :sb-ext (using sbcl) 2017-06-16T13:54:44Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-06-16T13:54:57Z Xach: slyrus: it's a slightly idiosyncratic indexing system, but it has never failed on mcclim before 2017-06-16T13:55:09Z cromachina quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-06-16T13:56:24Z Xach: slyrus: aha, i think i see the problem 2017-06-16T13:56:43Z slyrus: I added a new ASDF .asd file down in Backends/PostScript. I'm wondering if that's what messed things up. So... zapping your fasls and running (ql:register-local-projects) are the two things that come to mind. 2017-06-16T13:56:51Z slyrus: but maybe you've got some more complex system going. 2017-06-16T13:56:56Z slyrus: it works for me he. 2017-06-16T13:57:09Z Xach: It clim-postscript-font.asd is in two places? 2017-06-16T13:57:24Z slyrus: whoops! 2017-06-16T13:57:27Z slyrus: that's a bu 2017-06-16T13:57:29Z slyrus: g 2017-06-16T13:57:43Z Xach: which one is canon? 2017-06-16T13:58:44Z slyrus: thanks! good question. probably the one in PostScript. 2017-06-16T13:58:49Z slyrus: will confirm shortly. 2017-06-16T13:58:50Z diegs_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-06-16T14:02:05Z slyrus: bah. ldb on recompiling. 2017-06-16T14:02:36Z slyrus: on a freshly launched SBCL with no fasls :( 2017-06-16T14:04:21Z Xach: boo 2017-06-16T14:04:24Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-06-16T14:08:23Z _rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-06-16T14:08:57Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-06-16T14:09:39Z slyrus: Xach: thanks for the report. fix committed. 2017-06-16T14:10:53Z dec0n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-06-16T14:11:29Z onehrxn quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-06-16T14:13:11Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2017-06-16T14:15:10Z phinxy joined #lisp 2017-06-16T14:16:38Z oleo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-06-16T14:19:06Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-06-16T14:20:07Z onehrxn joined #lisp 2017-06-16T14:21:42Z onehrxn quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-06-16T14:26:55Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2017-06-16T14:28:25Z onehrxn joined #lisp 2017-06-16T14:28:38Z Cymew quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2017-06-16T14:29:16Z onehrxn quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-06-16T14:29:20Z oleo joined #lisp 2017-06-16T14:31:34Z onehrxn joined #lisp 2017-06-16T14:35:47Z pjb: Murii: the important point wrt. quote, is that lisp programs are written using the format defined for lisp DATA. 2017-06-16T14:36:34Z pjb: Murii: actually, there's a (preliminary) syntax defined for lisp programs. Stuff like: label[subst;λ[[x;y;s];[null[s]->nil;atom[s]⟶[y=s->x;1->s];1->combine[subst[x;y;first[s]];subst[x;y;rest[s]]]]]] 2017-06-16T14:37:23Z pjb: Murii: in this syntax, there's no need for quote, since data is simply written with parentheses and uppercase, instead of brackets and lowercase: subst[(WATER;WINE;(MIX WATER AND WINE INTO (MIXED WATER AND WINE))]; 2017-06-16T14:39:28Z pjb: Murii: but the thing is that: 1- there's a direct mapping of the lisp syntax to lisp data; 2- we can easily define an eval function that will take lisp data representing a lisp program, and interpret it; 3- a young student was impulsive and implemented this eval function in assembler before the syntax for lisp program was entirely finalized. The rest is history. 2017-06-16T14:39:53Z pjb: Murii: in this context, quote is used to indicate that its argument must not be interpreted as lisp code. 2017-06-16T14:40:21Z pjb: subst[(WATER;WINE;(MIX WATER AND WINE INTO (MIXED WATER AND WINE))]; translates to (subst (quote (water wine (mix water and wine into (mixed water and wine))))) 2017-06-16T14:41:26Z onehrxn quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-06-16T14:42:24Z pjb: Murii: notice that this let an important invention (which existed entirely since the origin, but was embryonic) of macros: ie. functions transforming some lisp data into lisp code, embedded in the code, and called at compilation time. 2017-06-16T14:42:44Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-06-16T14:43:11Z onehrxn joined #lisp 2017-06-16T14:44:24Z pjb: Timeframe: AIM-8 specifies lisp and eval in Mars 1959; Russel implemented it in assembler 7090 from 1959-1960 (next version 1.5 in 1962); macros were invented in 1964. Until then, people still used the M-expressions (lisp code syntax) in papers; they only use S-expressions (lisp data syntax) on puched cards and listings. But once macros were introduced everybody flew with them and they forgot about M-expressions. 2017-06-16T14:45:50Z bigos_ joined #lisp 2017-06-16T14:46:01Z pjb: Murii: http://informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/aim-8/aim-8.html http://informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/m-expression/index.html 2017-06-16T14:47:22Z onehrxn quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-06-16T14:48:11Z beach quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-06-16T14:49:20Z onehrxn joined #lisp 2017-06-16T14:49:59Z onehrxn quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-06-16T14:51:52Z onehrxn joined #lisp 2017-06-16T14:52:54Z onehrxn quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-06-16T14:57:05Z brendyn quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-06-16T14:59:26Z rogersm quit (Quit: rogersm) 2017-06-16T15:01:47Z gko quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2017-06-16T15:02:12Z rogersm joined #lisp 2017-06-16T15:03:46Z onehrxn joined #lisp 2017-06-16T15:04:55Z X-Scale joined 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joined #lisp 2017-06-16T17:03:06Z argoneus quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2017-06-16T17:03:50Z amerlyq quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-06-16T17:04:14Z argoneus joined #lisp 2017-06-16T17:05:03Z amerlyq joined #lisp 2017-06-16T17:06:41Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-06-16T17:08:06Z fade: good explanation. 2017-06-16T17:10:47Z Brucio-87 joined #lisp 2017-06-16T17:11:08Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-06-16T17:11:25Z kmb joined #lisp 2017-06-16T17:12:23Z damke_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-06-16T17:14:25Z Brucio-87: Test message 2017-06-16T17:15:18Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-06-16T17:15:18Z _death: Test failed: cannot produce failure. 2017-06-16T17:16:57Z MrBusiness quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-06-16T17:17:45Z onehrxn_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-06-16T17:17:51Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-06-16T17:18:10Z slyrus_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-06-16T17:20:13Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2017-06-16T17:20:18Z prole 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(Remote host closed the connection) 2017-06-16T18:00:35Z knusbaum: fail failed: fail 2017-06-16T18:00:58Z Bike: jackdaniel: never let anyone tell you what you can't fail! 2017-06-16T18:01:33Z random_numbers joined #lisp 2017-06-16T18:01:56Z jackdaniel: :-) 2017-06-16T18:03:39Z TDT joined #lisp 2017-06-16T18:06:33Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-06-16T18:08:22Z random_numbers: phoe: Read up the logs. 2017-06-16T08:05:02Z Touché. Though that's a fair bit lower-level than desirable. 2017-06-16T18:12:09Z vtomole joined #lisp 2017-06-16T18:13:22Z segmond quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-06-16T18:15:22Z mhd quit (Ping timeout: 180 seconds) 2017-06-16T18:15:26Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-06-16T18:17:08Z mhd quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-06-16T18:21:24Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2017-06-16T18:23:08Z p9s quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-06-16T18:26:38Z knusbaum quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-06-16T18:26:52Z knusbaum joined #lisp 2017-06-16T18:27:57Z Posterdati quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2017-06-16T18:31:05Z Sauvin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-06-16T18:32:26Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-06-16T18:33:51Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-06-16T18:34:43Z hhdave quit (Client Quit) 2017-06-16T18:37:57Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2017-06-16T18:38:31Z jcloud is now known as jyc 2017-06-16T18:45:20Z slyrus_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-06-16T18:49:12Z rogersm quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-06-16T18:49:30Z rogersm joined #lisp 2017-06-16T18:50:48Z Grue`` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-06-16T18:54:27Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-06-16T18:55:27Z RichardPaulBck[m quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2017-06-16T18:56:10Z thorondor[m] quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-06-16T18:57:37Z loke___ joined #lisp 2017-06-16T18:59:37Z Jach[m] quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2017-06-16T18:59:40Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-06-16T19:00:05Z Sovereign_Bleak quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-06-16T19:00:19Z ArthurAGleckler[ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-06-16T19:00:28Z rogersm quit (Quit: rogersm) 2017-06-16T19:03:40Z diegs_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-06-16T19:05:13Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-06-16T19:12:24Z aeth_ joined #lisp 2017-06-16T19:13:08Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-06-16T19:13:38Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2017-06-16T19:16:38Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-06-16T19:22:14Z p9s joined #lisp 2017-06-16T19:24:43Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-06-16T19:27:09Z p9s quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-06-16T19:27:39Z p9s joined #lisp 2017-06-16T19:28:35Z pey quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-06-16T19:29:42Z _paul0 joined #lisp 2017-06-16T19:33:06Z __paul0 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-06-16T19:34:15Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-06-16T19:38:47Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-06-16T19:42:10Z ober2 joined #lisp 2017-06-16T19:43:54Z ober2 left #lisp 2017-06-16T19:45:08Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-06-16T19:47:59Z salv0 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-06-16T19:51:08Z faraco joined #lisp 2017-06-16T19:51:12Z faraco: hi 2017-06-16T19:52:29Z faraco: question, as a beginner to functional programming paradigm, which language do you recommend to learn. Haskell or Lisp (cl, scheme, etc)? 2017-06-16T19:52:43Z sbodin quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-06-16T19:53:30Z faraco: I have some programmig background in Perl and C, and would love to expand my knowledge area to untouched territory in my career. 2017-06-16T19:53:34Z knusbaum: You may get a biased answer in this channel. 2017-06-16T19:54:13Z faraco: I expect it will be, but I wish it comes with explanation at least in my case. 2017-06-16T19:54:41Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-06-16T19:55:17Z knusbaum: Both are good. Haskell is basically purely functional, while in CL you can program however you like. Both have good reading resources for beginners. 2017-06-16T19:55:31Z knusbaum: I find lisp a bit more fun, but that's subjective. 2017-06-16T19:56:36Z knusbaum: Haskell is almost certainly going to be more challenging. 2017-06-16T19:57:08Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-06-16T19:57:47Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-06-16T19:57:56Z salv0 joined #lisp 2017-06-16T19:59:37Z faraco: I just want to grasp my head with these functional stuff. I realized when writing code in another language, using functions like the popular map and reduce is really great and it really make the code concise. However, despite of my lack of experience in the usage area, doing Lisp might be a good idea since it seems much more expressive than the language I primarily use. 2017-06-16T19:59:51Z faraco: wrap my head* 2017-06-16T20:00:50Z loke___: faraco: Lisp is indeed more expressive, but not because of functional reasons. 2017-06-16T20:01:21Z loke___: faraco: Lisp is multi-paradigm, which menas that you can mix imperative, functional, object-oriented etc. techniques in the same functions. 2017-06-16T20:03:09Z diegs_ joined #lisp 2017-06-16T20:05:24Z faraco: I see. Maybe I could read documentation somewhere to see why it is different, and why it is fun to you guys. Last question if you don't mind, if anything, what Lisp is really suited for and great at? I like to use a programming language for its out of the box features and design focus. 2017-06-16T20:06:15Z Posterdati joined #lisp 2017-06-16T20:06:51Z loke___: faraco: It's useful for a lot of things. Like I said, it's multi-paradigm, so there are really few things is doesn't do. 2017-06-16T20:07:04Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-06-16T20:07:04Z knusbaum: It's about as general-purpose as general-purpose can be. Since it has the features to alter and add to its own syntax and semantics, you can basically make it do anything. 2017-06-16T20:07:06Z loke___: Well, of course, I wouldn't use it to write a client-side web applciation. 2017-06-16T20:07:17Z loke___: ,clhs 2017-06-16T20:07:41Z loke___: faraco: I recommend you read this: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ 2017-06-16T20:07:53Z knusbaum: I second that book. 2017-06-16T20:09:15Z faraco: oh thank you very much. I'll gonna take a look at box. 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Is there a name for the inverse of the reduce function? 2017-06-16T21:25:26Z nirved quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-06-16T21:26:28Z rumbler31: question 2, I'm writing my own. I've ended up making a function that defines two inner functions with labels, one is supposed to be a closure (or mock closure) that calls the subject function with the initial varible arg and a supplied arg, which is used in the inner expand recusively 2017-06-16T21:27:07Z rumbler31: q2 is how can I tell/is it even possible for the compiler to make a recursive function defined with labels tail recursive? 2017-06-16T21:28:01Z segmond joined #lisp 2017-06-16T21:28:16Z rumbler31: like I want to say, call something like (expand 3 #'+ :count 5) and it will return a list of (3 6 9 12 15) 2017-06-16T21:29:31Z easye quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-06-16T21:31:20Z rumbler31: http://paste.lisp.org/display/348863 2017-06-16T21:31:33Z oleo: 3+5=8, does the list make even sense ? 2017-06-16T21:31:35Z rumbler31: cheap trick if you want to supply an initial value just supply a nonempty list of one element 2017-06-16T21:31:48Z rumbler31: count is expand 5 times 2017-06-16T21:31:50Z oleo: aah wait count was the length 2017-06-16T21:31:53Z oleo: yah 2017-06-16T21:31:58Z rumbler31: reduce knows that the list is over, expand doesn't 2017-06-16T21:31:58Z Jach[m] joined #lisp 2017-06-16T21:32:30Z rumbler31: I can trace the toplevel but that doesn't show me that the inner function is tail recursive. 2017-06-16T21:32:32Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-06-16T21:33:53Z rumbler31: note, the function I posted doesn't take count as a keyword, that was just to disambiguate the idea of the function call's args 2017-06-16T21:34:14Z easye joined #lisp 2017-06-16T21:36:04Z pjb: rumbler31: when would the inverse of the reduce function stop? 2017-06-16T21:36:13Z rumbler31: with a count param 2017-06-16T21:36:25Z pjb: So it's not an inverse. 2017-06-16T21:36:43Z rumbler31: not in the pure sense 2017-06-16T21:37:10Z rumbler31: there is no pure inverse of the reduce function 2017-06-16T21:37:11Z pjb: (reduce f) in general is a surjection. 2017-06-16T21:37:54Z pjb: and not an injection. 2017-06-16T21:38:39Z pjb: You could call it climb: https://programmingpraxis.com/2017/06/13/climb-to-a-prime/ 2017-06-16T21:40:37Z RichardPaulBck[m joined #lisp 2017-06-16T21:40:37Z ArthurAGleckler[ joined #lisp 2017-06-16T21:40:37Z thorondor[m] joined #lisp 2017-06-16T21:40:37Z Sovereign_Bleak joined #lisp 2017-06-16T21:40:55Z pjb: You don't need the rest argument. If the function needs additionnal information, you just pass a closure. 2017-06-16T21:41:05Z Merv_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-06-16T21:41:28Z pjb: (Oh, unless you use it for an accumulator pattern; you can do that internally, but don't expose it on the public function signature). 2017-06-16T21:41:52Z rumbler31: I don't quite understand what you mean 2017-06-16T21:42:17Z pjb: you may take a :to-end parameter to implement left or right clim or unfold. 2017-06-16T21:42:26Z pjb: Since reduce = fold, you could call it unfold. 2017-06-16T21:43:07Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-06-16T21:43:12Z pjb: I mean that the accumulator pattern should not be visible in a public API. 2017-06-16T21:43:36Z White_Flame: (reverse (maplist (lambda (sublist) (reduce #'+ sublist)) (make-list 5 :initial-element 3))) 2017-06-16T21:43:37Z pjb: If you implemented your function with a loop or otherwise, you wouldn't have this accumulator anymore. It's an implementation detail. 2017-06-16T21:44:00Z p9s quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-06-16T21:44:33Z White_Flame: presumably, this is reducing '(3 3 3 3 3) with #'+, collecting each intermediate result? 2017-06-16T21:45:23Z White_Flame: the reversed maplist is a little convoluted in order & reclaculation, but + is nice and transitive/commutative 2017-06-16T21:45:34Z White_Flame: and pure functional 2017-06-16T21:46:21Z rumbler31: White_Flame: yes but also why not #'* or some other function. I think pjb's mention of the accumulator pattern sounds like what I was trying to acheive, and I haven't walked through your example yet 2017-06-16T21:46:52Z White_Flame: maplist turns that list into (3) (3 3) (3 3 3) etc, which is then subsequently reduced with #'+ 2017-06-16T21:47:01Z rumbler31: pjb: I don't know what you mean by passing a closure if the function needs more information. Rather, I know what you mean about making a closure but not how to apply it in this case 2017-06-16T21:47:07Z White_Flame: *each of which is reduced 2017-06-16T21:47:41Z rumbler31: White_Flame: I seee 2017-06-16T21:48:15Z White_Flame: but yeah, an accumulator version makes a ton more sense, especially when efficiency or side effects are in the picture 2017-06-16T21:48:25Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-06-16T21:48:30Z White_Flame: just code golfing :) 2017-06-16T21:48:59Z pjb: rumbler31: for example, if you want to call the function + with N and each element of a list, you don't have a mapcar function that takes as argument N like: (let ((N 3)) (mapcar* (function +) N list)) ; instead, mapcar takes a closure: (let ((N 3)) (mapcar (lambda (x) (+ N x)) list)) 2017-06-16T21:49:23Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-06-16T21:51:06Z rumbler31: pjb: I was intending for the second example in your sentence, did I not do that? With the rest param I leaked out to the user that you can supply an initial value, but I don't see how to make a closure to supply such 2017-06-16T21:51:19Z White_Flame: I don't know what you want un-reduce for, but it would seem that it also might want a separate starting value, in addition to the parameter given to the accumulator function 2017-06-16T21:53:32Z pjb: rumbler31: you don't. 2017-06-16T21:53:59Z pjb: Then I realized you had an accumulator pattern, and I said that it's a big no-no to leak it from high level user-facing functions. 2017-06-16T21:54:43Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-06-16T21:55:14Z pjb: Notice that some CL function expose such a low-level parameter, eg. nreconc or revappend. Those are low-level functions used to implement eg. nreverse or reverse. But for a function such as reverse, it would be very bad to have an &optional accumulator! 2017-06-16T21:55:42Z pjb: White_Flame: this is the first arg. 2017-06-16T21:56:16Z vydd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-06-16T21:56:18Z White_Flame: I mean, the given example basically adds 3 five times 2017-06-16T21:56:37Z White_Flame: is there a starting value, or is the 3 included in the list of numbers to be accumulated? 2017-06-16T21:56:44Z White_Flame: depends on the situation 2017-06-16T21:57:47Z White_Flame: (loop for acc = 3 then (funcall #'+ acc 3) 2017-06-16T21:57:47Z White_Flame: for i upto 5 collect acc) 2017-06-16T21:57:51Z rumbler31: pjb: so you mean that if I am writing something that intends to accumulate values in a list and return that to the user, I shouldn't expose the "destination" list as an input to my function that does such? 2017-06-16T21:58:17Z rumbler31: like a recuse and recurse-inner, where inner takes the &rest param and the recurse doesn't? is that what you mean? 2017-06-16T22:01:54Z salv0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-06-16T22:04:34Z knusbaum quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-06-16T22:06:14Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2017-06-16T22:07:15Z pillton quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.2.1)) 2017-06-16T22:09:23Z pjb: rumbler31: yes. 2017-06-16T22:10:34Z prole` quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.2.1)) 2017-06-16T22:10:47Z prole joined #lisp 2017-06-16T22:13:55Z p9s joined #lisp 2017-06-16T22:14:47Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-06-16T22:18:04Z xaotuk quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-06-16T22:19:01Z p9s quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-06-16T22:19:02Z hyero joined #lisp 2017-06-16T22:19:19Z hyero left #lisp 2017-06-16T22:20:29Z pillton joined #lisp 2017-06-16T22:21:17Z kmb quit (Quit: kmb) 2017-06-16T22:21:39Z safe joined #lisp 2017-06-16T22:21:50Z slyrus_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-06-16T22:24:59Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-06-16T22:32:07Z d4ryus4 joined #lisp 2017-06-16T22:35:33Z d4ryus3 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-06-16T22:37:05Z loke___ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-06-16T22:37:06Z Merv_ joined #lisp 2017-06-16T22:37:34Z ExcelTronic joined #lisp 2017-06-16T22:38:01Z ExcelTronic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-06-16T22:44:50Z sbodin joined #lisp 2017-06-16T22:45:27Z KongWubba quit (Quit: Yaaic - Yet another Android IRC client - http://www.yaaic.org) 2017-06-16T22:46:01Z KongWubba joined #lisp 2017-06-16T22:48:26Z troydm joined #lisp 2017-06-16T22:51:08Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2017-06-16T22:55:12Z whoman joined #lisp 2017-06-16T22:56:54Z vtomole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-06-16T22:57:23Z casper_ joined #lisp 2017-06-16T23:01:23Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-06-16T23:11:46Z prole quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-06-16T23:11:54Z Merv_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-06-16T23:14:15Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-06-16T23:14:44Z p9s joined #lisp