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2017-06-14T00:06:39Z plll: Hi, I'm trying to get set up with any of the HTTP clients on NixOS. All of them seem to rely on libssl. Any way to get around this?
2017-06-14T00:07:10Z Bike: i think there's a way to load hunchentoot without using any SSL
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2017-06-14T02:17:20Z diegs_: I'm pretty new to the whole swank thing -- can I have SBCL run in the background on login (or when i enter a given command) with a swank server at a specified port?
2017-06-14T02:17:31Z diegs_: cause that would be... cool
2017-06-14T02:17:54Z Xach: diegs_: yes
2017-06-14T02:18:10Z diegs_: Xach: what's the way to go about that? I'm having trouble finding examples
2017-06-14T02:18:27Z Xach: diegs_: i use screen with a specific config file to start up sbcl, and use a .lisp script to load and set up swank.
2017-06-14T02:18:36Z Xach: diegs_: there are many other options
2017-06-14T02:19:18Z Xach: diegs_: however, i only do that when i'm running a server for a long time. i more often swank from within emacs with M-x slime
2017-06-14T02:19:34Z Xach: diegs_: what prompts your interest in the former?
2017-06-14T02:19:58Z diegs_: hmm. could i just `sbcl --load swank-config.lisp &` . Also would you mind sharing the .lisp script?
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2017-06-14T02:20:37Z Xach: diegs_: I don't have one handy, it's something like (ql:quickload "my-project") where my-project depends-on swank, and then (swank:create-server 4010 :dont-close t)
2017-06-14T02:20:37Z diegs_: Xach: and well, i just found ScriptL https://github.com/rpav/ScriptL and while i'm not... exactly sure what the use case is, i thought i'd play around with it. I don't strictly speaking need what i was describing but something similar is mentioned in the README
2017-06-14T02:20:55Z diegs_: so i was curious
2017-06-14T02:21:19Z Xach: diegs_: you can't simply & the process as it normally reads and writes to the terminal. there is a sb-daemonize or something similar that will set it up properly for a background process.
2017-06-14T02:23:21Z diegs_: Ah, ill look into that. thanks!
2017-06-14T02:26:47Z Xach: no problemo
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2017-06-14T02:38:27Z diegs_: Xach: hmm, i'm trying some of what we discussed with the following: https://gist.github.com/therockmandolinist/123591a920b200ec6fa589b36a3db117 but getting "Cannot fork with multiple threads running"
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2017-06-14T02:42:08Z Xach: I guess maybe you have to daemonize first, then start swank.
2017-06-14T02:42:15Z Xach: i don't know how to do that, sorry.
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2017-06-14T03:18:07Z akkad: wasn't cl-bench in QL?
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2017-06-14T03:30:36Z drmeister: So we got a jupyter widget to work with CL
2017-06-14T03:30:47Z drmeister: http://i.imgur.com/KA3pdqR.png
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2017-06-14T03:32:16Z drmeister: I have two undergraduates working on implementing the two or so dozen standard jupyter widgets in Common Lisp.
2017-06-14T03:33:02Z drmeister: We are going to enhance the cl-jupyter system to support jupyter widgets so that it can be used by all standard Common Lisp's
2017-06-14T03:33:40Z drmeister: Jupyter notebooks are the new hotness: https://jupyter.org
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2017-06-14T03:42:56Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-06-14T03:47:55Z krwq: drmeister: how does debugging look like in jupyter (I don't know anything about it)
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2017-06-14T04:03:44Z drmeister: krwq: I hacked into the python code and log traffic between the kernel and the browser.  Then I added logging code to my code to generate similar data.  Then we compare what's being sent back and forth.
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2017-06-14T04:04:27Z drmeister: Secondly, I can start a swank server from the Jupyter notebook and use slime to inspect everything.
2017-06-14T04:05:21Z whoman2: why
2017-06-14T04:05:50Z drmeister: Why not?
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2017-06-14T04:09:55Z whoman2: i dunno. i want my emacs to be able to notebook
2017-06-14T04:10:15Z whoman2: swank is good for more purposes than lisp repl ?
2017-06-14T04:10:21Z diegs_: whoman2: just arrived say wat
2017-06-14T04:10:46Z whoman2: jupyter.org diegs_
2017-06-14T04:11:03Z diegs_: whoman2: EIN?
2017-06-14T04:11:08Z drmeister: slime/emacs is great for programming.
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2017-06-14T04:11:32Z drmeister: For users I'll be delivering jupyter notebooks with widgets.
2017-06-14T04:11:43Z whoman2: drmeister, where are we again? i was asking about your useage of swank! =)
2017-06-14T04:12:05Z whoman2: ok, coolness.
2017-06-14T04:12:20Z drmeister: What is the question?
2017-06-14T04:13:01Z whoman2: dont worry about it. =)
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2017-06-14T05:03:11Z pjb: Eine Is Not Emacs.
2017-06-14T05:05:49Z beach: Drei Resembles Emacs Intentionally
2017-06-14T05:06:13Z beach: Vier Is Emacs Really
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2017-06-14T05:36:53Z flip214: Fünf üses Neovim fiercly
2017-06-14T05:37:02Z flip214: *fiercely
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2017-06-14T05:53:18Z beach: Aww!
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2017-06-14T05:57:36Z beach: As part of the CST (Concrete Syntax Tree) library, the Earley-based lambda-list parsers now seem to work, but in order to simplify my job, I made them work on ordinary Common Lisp S-expressions and not on CSTs.
2017-06-14T05:57:37Z beach: The next step is to change that so that they work on CSTs instead.  And I just figured that the classes that represent the different parts of the lambda list, such as the lambda-list keywords and the parameters, should just be subclasses of CST, as opposed to containing CSTs.
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2017-06-14T09:12:27Z John[Lisbeth]: common lisp editor
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2017-06-14T10:40:21Z Grue``: does anyone know how to avoid warnings like "could not optimize away %SAP-ALIEN: forced to do runtime  allocation of alien-value structure" in SBCL?
2017-06-14T10:40:37Z Grue``: happens when you compile e.g. (defun test-stat (name) (sb-posix:stat name))
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2017-06-14T10:44:02Z loke___: Grue`: It's because the STAT function is declared inline
2017-06-14T10:44:17Z loke___: that way, you are actually getting the warning from inside the stat implementation
2017-06-14T10:44:51Z loke___: I looked at it, and it's not entirely clear what happens. I think what happens is that there is effectively a malloc call to allocate the memory for the string
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2017-06-14T10:45:30Z loke___: I think, maybe you can work around it by declaring the pathname variable as DYNAMIC-EXTENT, but that's just speculation.
2017-06-14T10:45:50Z loke___: Anyway
2017-06-14T10:45:54Z loke___: I have to go now. Good luck :-)
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2017-06-14T10:46:47Z Grue``: well, clhs says that (defun g (x) (declare (dynamic-extent x)) ...) is essentially useless
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2017-06-14T10:55:03Z Grue``: https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/495044 hmm
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2017-06-14T11:25:56Z flip214: for the lisp-to-fpga people around here:  http://zipcpu.com/blog/2017/06/12/minimizing-luts.html
2017-06-14T11:26:12Z flip214: would be interesting to know what kind of optimizations the translator already does
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2017-06-14T11:28:53Z Cymew: Anyone know how planet lisp works? There seems to be very much about postgresql lately.
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2017-06-14T11:33:51Z Bike: what "translator"?
2017-06-14T11:35:01Z jackdaniel: Cymew: it fetches rss feeds from the blogs it is subscribed to
2017-06-14T11:35:26Z Cymew: jackdaniel: No parsing of tags or something?
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2017-06-14T11:38:16Z jackdaniel: I don't know exact details, but yes, it can subscribe to some specific tags on the blog
2017-06-14T11:38:37Z jackdaniel: Xach will know more as he is the creator
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2017-06-14T11:40:49Z flip214: Bike: there was "VeriLisp: turns Common Lisp into a frontend to Verilog." but it seems dead now.
2017-06-14T11:41:16Z Cymew: jackdaniel: Thanks!
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2017-06-14T11:43:29Z _user: seems nobody is on the clnoobs channel, so I I ask here, any good reccomendations on how to properly learn lisp, I've started with the practical common lisp book, but it has gone too deep too fast
2017-06-14T11:43:50Z Bike: minion: gentle
2017-06-14T11:43:50Z minion: gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/
2017-06-14T11:43:54Z Bike: there's that too
2017-06-14T11:44:05Z Cymew: That's a great start.
2017-06-14T11:44:50Z Bike: flip214: if you're targeting verilog your optimization options are limited to expanding your high level constructs into verilog constructs appropriate for whatever combination of synthesizer you're using, i would think
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2017-06-14T11:45:36Z _user: Bike: thanks for the reccomendation, I'd already come across that book, but I had dismissed it due to its age
2017-06-14T11:45:41Z _user: I'll give it another look
2017-06-14T11:46:01Z Bike: as far as i remember there's some stuff that's not the best style now, but it should all basically work
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2017-06-14T11:56:48Z flip214: Bike: yes, of course. I don't know about any other way to have Lisp as high-level language for FPGAs, though.
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2017-06-14T12:00:41Z Cymew: _user: Common Lisp is not that young any more. ;)
2017-06-14T12:03:06Z Bike: the only high level hw design things i'm aware of also output verilog. there's lots of vendor secrecy
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2017-06-14T12:07:04Z Bike: it's pretty annoying since, as you can see in that post, a lot of the lower optimization seems to be reconstructing high level blocks from the sequential logic that nobody actually wants to write anyway
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2017-06-14T13:05:29Z attila_lendvai: slick FPGA's, with competition among hw manufacturers, and good highlevel compilers would be a big liberation to computing
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2017-06-14T13:09:14Z Bike: too bad fabbing costs infinity dollars, huh
2017-06-14T13:10:16Z TeMPOraL: I wonder what's the cost breakdown, though
2017-06-14T13:10:39Z TeMPOraL: sure you won't fab a new 3GHz CPU, but maybe fabbing something that used to be commercially valuable in the 90s?
2017-06-14T13:10:44Z TeMPOraL: that's still enough compute for lots of applications
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2017-06-14T13:13:46Z Bike: a MOS successor opened their micrometer fab in the nineties, but they got shut down by the EPA on account of being an environmental disaster
2017-06-14T13:14:08Z Bike: maybe there are similar companies except for the last part. but then, fpgas are usually for super high performance crap anyway
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2017-06-14T13:54:44Z paule32: hello
2017-06-14T13:54:57Z paule32: i have following snippet code:
2017-06-14T13:55:03Z paule32: (if (= (src1)(src2)) T)(progn (print "OKK"))
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2017-06-14T13:55:21Z paule32: src1 is ("Tier")
2017-06-14T13:55:23Z dlowe: the if is redundant there.
2017-06-14T13:55:32Z dlowe: = is for numbers only
2017-06-14T13:55:43Z djh: so's the progn
2017-06-14T13:56:06Z dlowe: if src1 is a list, then you can't call it like a function
2017-06-14T13:56:24Z paule32: yeah
2017-06-14T13:56:28Z dlowe: OKK isn't a word :D
2017-06-14T13:56:48Z paule32: :-D
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2017-06-14T14:28:08Z paule32: i have (beer) and (("beer"))
2017-06-14T14:28:24Z paule32: how can i conver to string or compare of equal ?
2017-06-14T14:28:39Z dlowe: CL:EQUAL will compare them.
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2017-06-14T14:38:10Z paule32: http://paste.lisp.org/display/348720
2017-06-14T14:38:34Z paule32: line 56 will never reach
2017-06-14T14:44:08Z dlowe: ok, so src3 is never equal to src2
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2017-06-14T14:45:25Z dlowe: you can use string-downcase to convert beer to a string.
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2017-06-14T14:45:48Z dlowe: and first to get the first element of a list.
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2017-06-14T15:14:41Z Grue``: paule32: src3 is a list, src2 is a string, you need to join src3 back to string to be able to compare them
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2017-06-14T15:15:26Z dlowe: you can still compare them. It will just always be NIL.
2017-06-14T15:15:44Z dlowe: it pays to be clear about what you are comparing and why.
2017-06-14T15:17:50Z paule32: the input string is:
2017-06-14T15:17:58Z paule32: what is mouse
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2017-06-14T15:18:11Z paule32: mouse is in wordtable
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2017-06-14T15:21:01Z paule32: STRING-EQUAL: Argument must be a String, Symbol or Character, not ("mouse")
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2017-06-14T15:21:59Z Bike: yes, ("mouse") is a list, with one element which is a string.
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2017-06-14T15:22:45Z Reinisch: hi paule32, that error message seems like it's saying, "you gave me the list ("something") instead of a string "something""
2017-06-14T15:23:01Z paule32: yes
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2017-06-14T15:24:18Z Reinisch: you could use (car '("mouse")) or (first '("mouse")) to get "mouse" from '("mouse")
2017-06-14T15:25:10Z Reinisch: so if M is a symbol with the value ("mouse")
2017-06-14T15:25:33Z Reinisch: like (defparameter M '("mouse"))
2017-06-14T15:25:59Z Reinisch: then you could get "mouse" from M with (car M) or (first M)
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2017-06-14T16:31:23Z paule32: thank you Reinisch
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2017-06-14T16:58:52Z Shinmera: In an ASDF system definition, how would I make a file in a module depend on a file outside of the module? as in, :coponents ((:module "foo" :components ((:file "bar" :depends-on ("baz")))) (:file "baz"))
2017-06-14T16:59:07Z Shinmera: The above seems to fail with ASDF not being able to find the "baz" dependency.
2017-06-14T17:00:05Z Shinmera: Can't find anything in the manual on this either.
2017-06-14T17:00:42Z jackdaniel: you have to make a separate module for file baz (you can provide pathname for module I think)
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2017-06-14T17:01:09Z jackdaniel: (:module "bam" :pathname "bu" :components ((:file "baz"))) and then depend on "bam"
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2017-06-14T17:02:19Z Shinmera: That doesn't work either. From the source code it seems like find-component only ever searches within the current parent of a component and not any higher up.
2017-06-14T17:02:34Z Shinmera: So whether I wrap the outer baz within a module or not makes no difference.
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2017-06-14T17:07:44Z jackdaniel: http://paste.lisp.org/display/348726 works for me
2017-06-14T17:08:14Z jackdaniel: for non-sibling dependencies you'd have to provide method for asdf:find-component indeed
2017-06-14T17:08:38Z Shinmera: I don't want to make the entire module dependent on another.
2017-06-14T17:09:43Z jackdaniel: ah, if you don't want to, then you are out of luck, because imagine situation, where you have non-sibling dependency on "baz", but you have file "baz" at two different nodes (modules)
2017-06-14T17:10:14Z Shinmera: If there was a (:parent "foo") combinator that would be solved.
2017-06-14T17:10:21Z Shinmera: But I guess I have to add that myself, sigh
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2017-06-14T17:13:12Z Shinmera: Here we go: (defmethod asdf/find-component:resolve-dependency-combination (component (combinator (eql :parent)) args)   (asdf/find-component:resolve-dependency-spec (asdf:component-parent component) args))
2017-06-14T17:13:25Z varjag: what else's there among cl implementations for arm64 except sbcl
2017-06-14T17:13:31Z varjag: ecl?
2017-06-14T17:13:58Z jackdaniel: ecl doesn't work on arm64, possible to port though
2017-06-14T17:14:33Z jackdaniel: I think that abcl would work as well as clisp
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2017-06-14T17:15:58Z varjag: hmm clisp
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2017-06-14T17:23:16Z Reinisch: paule32: you are welcome! I'm glad I could help.
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2017-06-14T17:24:43Z paule32: Reinisch: thank you, now i am motivated to implement new free lisp derivate based on clisp
2017-06-14T17:25:05Z paule32: may be i translate lisp stuff
2017-06-14T17:25:36Z paule32: but i think, when i go deeper, i could learn more and understand lisp better
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2017-06-14T17:26:26Z paule32: i am a non-profit programmer, so you don't cry, it's all free
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2017-06-14T17:28:26Z Reinisch: best of luck to you paule32
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2017-06-14T17:42:12Z gigamonkey: I feel like this was discussed on comp.lang.lisp a long time ago but Google isn't helping me find it but is there some history about why CL:AND and CL:OR don't pass through multiple values?
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2017-06-14T17:42:58Z Bike: is it not just because that would be slightly difficult and maybe cons
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2017-06-14T17:45:48Z aeth: I'm guessing it's because of the latter (consing)
2017-06-14T17:46:14Z gigamonkey: Hmmm.
2017-06-14T17:46:37Z trinitr0n: I'm about to cons this fuckin' burrito
2017-06-14T17:47:06Z trinitr0n: looks like all my lispm survived the move
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2017-06-14T17:48:15Z gigamonkey: Actually AND does pass through multiple values.
2017-06-14T17:49:11Z aeth: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/m_and.htm
2017-06-14T17:49:20Z aeth: "and passes back multiple values from the last subform but not from subforms other than the last."
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2017-06-14T17:49:27Z gigamonkey: But OR doesn't, which I guess could be explained by the need to cons to save possible multiple values.
2017-06-14T17:49:27Z Bike: the obvious definition of and makes it easy
2017-06-14T17:49:32Z gigamonkey: aeth: which is what you'd expect.
2017-06-14T17:49:34Z Bike: for OR you have to, yeah
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2017-06-14T17:50:17Z Bike: huh, OR specifically says if it hits the last form it does return all values, but otherwise it only returns the one, that's a bit confusing (i mean, makes perfect sense, just hard to explain)
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2017-06-14T17:51:48Z dlowe: I think returning extra values is an allowable extension
2017-06-14T17:52:51Z dlowe: eh, maybe not.
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2017-06-14T18:01:56Z jackdaniel: shiftf is non-conformant in sbcl with this regard
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2017-06-14T18:02:08Z shka_: is there common lisp equivalent of https://www.postgresql.org/docs/9.0/static/plpython.html ?
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2017-06-14T19:22:03Z dim: shka_: not that I know of, but I would like to have one
2017-06-14T19:22:19Z shka_: well, same here
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2017-06-14T19:22:36Z dim: nowadays we have background workers so the main CL kernel could be started on the side, and then triggers could execute in a “private” CL thread, if that's meaningful
2017-06-14T19:22:56Z dim: you could have a central CL state shared n the triggers and all
2017-06-14T19:23:40Z dim: even better would be to expose PostgreSQL C internals too so that you could prototype core code and extensions in CL ;-)
2017-06-14T19:24:46Z dim: for that either ECL or clasp might be real good
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2017-06-14T21:14:22Z s3a: Hello, everyone. :) In Common Lisp, using the time macro ( http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/m_time.htm ), it seems that this higher-order function ( http://dpaste.com/2FJADD5 ) is faster than this non-higher-order (recursive) function ( http://dpaste.com/0XJ5820 ). Why is that? Doesn't the higher-order function also (implicitly) use recursion?
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2017-06-14T21:39:43Z phoe: s3a: the APPLY is much more likely to be optimized.
2017-06-14T21:40:02Z phoe: also, it is actually much more likely to use iteration rather than recursion.
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2017-06-14T21:40:25Z phoe: Common Lisp is iterative and not recursive by default, which might be surprising at first, especially compared to Schemes or Clojure.
2017-06-14T21:41:03Z phoe: CL is not required to optimize tail calls and some implementations explicitly won't do it, either always, or in some situations like compiling functions with high debug values.
2017-06-14T21:41:57Z phoe: you can try compiling the second function with (declare (optimize (speed 3) (safety 1) (debug 0))) on a decently optimizing implementation like SBCL and tell me if it becomes any faster.
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2017-06-14T21:44:01Z phoe: oh wait
2017-06-14T21:44:07Z phoe: this second function is not tail-recursive
2017-06-14T21:44:19Z phoe: so it'll bind stack frames for each element of the list
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2017-06-14T21:44:53Z phoe: so no doubt it will be slower
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2017-06-14T22:01:35Z s3a: phoe, sorry for the delay; I'm about to try to process it all
2017-06-14T22:01:44Z s3a: it=what you said
2017-06-14T22:04:18Z phoe: s3a: no problem
2017-06-14T22:04:29Z phoe: fling questions at us if you have any more problems
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2017-06-14T22:07:13Z s3a: thanks. :)
2017-06-14T22:07:39Z s3a: phoe, why isn't the non-higher-order function ( http://dpaste.com/0XJ5820 ) not tail recursive?
2017-06-14T22:08:07Z phoe: s3a: read up about tail recursion a little bit.
2017-06-14T22:08:10Z phoe: basically:
2017-06-14T22:08:16Z s3a: it's calling itself at the end of the if
2017-06-14T22:08:20Z phoe: s3a: not really
2017-06-14T22:08:25Z phoe: it's calling the function +
2017-06-14T22:08:32Z phoe: with itself as one of the arguments to that function.
2017-06-14T22:10:12Z phoe: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/33923/what-is-tail-recursion seems like a good SO answer
2017-06-14T22:11:17Z phoe: basically - if function FOO is meant to be tail-recursive, then its return value must be either something that does not involve FOO, or a direct call to FOO with different arguments
2017-06-14T22:11:49Z phoe: and not a call to a different function with a call to FOO as one of its arguments.
2017-06-14T22:13:53Z s3a: phoe, ok, well that cleared that up :), so back to the main problem
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2017-06-14T22:20:20Z s3a: phoe, Okay, so the non-higher-order function will bind stack frames for each element of the list, and the higher-order function will instead deal with its computation in an iterative manner. That's the answer to my question? So, would the non-higher-order one have no optimizations whatsoever? How would the optimized version of the higher-order function look, approximately or exactly?
2017-06-14T22:21:34Z Bike: the "higher order" one is the one that just calls apply right
2017-06-14T22:22:37Z s3a: Bike, yes.
2017-06-14T22:22:45Z Bike: it will just immediately pass to the + function
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2017-06-14T22:24:53Z Bike: that is what it disassembles as on sbcl, yes
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2017-06-14T22:30:22Z s3a: Bike, (Technically, I'm using clisp.)
2017-06-14T22:30:32Z s3a: Not that I'm against SBCL
2017-06-14T22:30:34Z s3a: .
2017-06-14T22:30:59Z Bike: sbcl is just what i happen to have open, i would be surprised if clisp was any different
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2017-06-14T22:32:14Z phoe: s3a: the recursive function that is not tail-recursive will bind stack frames, yes.
2017-06-14T22:32:22Z s3a: did you use the disassemble function?
2017-06-14T22:32:38Z Bike: i did
2017-06-14T22:32:44Z phoe: AFAIK, apply #'+ will pass control to #'+ which accepts a variable amount of arguments anyway, so what Bike said, yes.
2017-06-14T22:32:46Z s3a: phoe, is the other part of what I said wrong?
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2017-06-14T22:33:04Z Bike: (disassemble #'sum-list2), try it urself
2017-06-14T22:33:10Z s3a: ah!
2017-06-14T22:33:13Z phoe: the optimized version of the higher-order function, well
2017-06-14T22:33:16Z s3a: the #' was what I needed
2017-06-14T22:33:22Z s3a: it kept giving me errors
2017-06-14T22:33:27Z s3a: ;)
2017-06-14T22:34:05Z phoe: (loop with acc = 0 for elt on list do (incf acc elt) finally (return acc))
2017-06-14T22:34:18Z phoe: that's the simplest iterative version that I can think of
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2017-06-14T22:34:48Z phoe: you can substitute (incf acc elt) with something like (setf acc (funcall fun acc elt)) where FUN is your higher order function
2017-06-14T22:34:58Z Bike: that is what sbcl does
2017-06-14T22:35:08Z Bike: with some stuff for doing rest lists faster
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2017-06-14T22:35:29Z phoe: and optimizations when you have a fixed amounts of arguments
2017-06-14T22:35:37Z phoe: and more optimizations when you know the number types
2017-06-14T22:36:11Z Bike: i meant for a full call, yes.
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2017-06-14T22:38:16Z s3a: What's incf?
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2017-06-14T22:38:48Z Bike: increment field
2017-06-14T22:38:57Z Bike: (incf x y) = (setf x (+ x y))
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2017-06-14T22:42:53Z s3a: how would one increment a counter?
2017-06-14T22:43:01Z s3a: wait
2017-06-14T22:43:08Z s3a: i meant
2017-06-14T22:43:12Z s3a: keep track of the sum
2017-06-14T22:43:37Z s3a: wait. let me re-read the above.
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2017-06-14T22:45:12Z Bike: the sum's just a variable?
2017-06-14T22:45:54Z s3a: Bike, i believe so.
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2017-06-14T22:46:09Z s3a: (loop for x in L (setf acc (incf x acc))  ) ? how would acc be 0 from the start?
2017-06-14T22:46:21Z phoe: s3a: you got the loop wrong
2017-06-14T22:46:37Z phoe: (loop with acc = 0 ...) <- here you have a variable ACC that is initialized to 0 in the beginning.
2017-06-14T22:46:40Z Bike: s3a: you just... bind it beforehand
2017-06-14T22:46:51Z Bike: do you know other programming languages?
2017-06-14T22:47:24Z s3a: yes. it's just that the functional/functional-like paradigm messes with my mind since i'm still new to this
2017-06-14T22:47:37Z phoe: also, you do not need to (setf acc (incf x acc)) - INCF is a destructive macro, it modifies the place passed to it as its first element.
2017-06-14T22:47:41Z s3a: Bike, so (setf acc 0) outside the loop?
2017-06-14T22:47:51Z phoe: so (let ((x 10)) (incf x 10) x) ;=> 20
2017-06-14T22:47:58Z phoe: where (let ((x 10)) (+ x 10) x) ;=> 10
2017-06-14T22:48:09Z phoe: but hey hey
2017-06-14T22:48:16Z phoe: you were asking about tail recursion
2017-06-14T22:48:23Z phoe: and now you're learning the DSL that is loop
2017-06-14T22:48:39Z phoe: good luck :D
2017-06-14T22:48:43Z phoe drops to sleep
2017-06-14T22:49:13Z s3a: goodnight. :)
2017-06-14T22:49:27Z s3a: what's DSL, though? I'm assuming it's not dick-sucking lips as urban dictionary says, lol.
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2017-06-14T22:51:41Z Bike: domain specific language
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2017-06-14T22:52:19Z emaczen: where or when do classes get "finalized?
2017-06-14T22:52:39Z Bike: emaczen: some time between being defined and having an object instantiated
2017-06-14T22:52:59Z Bike: s3a: it's nothing to do with functional programming really, the loop increment version is the same idea as you'd do writing it in java
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2017-06-14T22:54:29Z aeth: CL isn't functional. It's functionalish.
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2017-06-14T22:56:07Z s3a: aeth, actually, i knew that. :)
2017-06-14T22:56:13Z aeth: What seems to work well in CL is lots of tiny, pure functions feeding into larger functions or methods that work on mutable data structures.
2017-06-14T22:56:18Z aeth: At least ime.
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2017-06-14T22:56:58Z s3a: What's wrong with (defun some_function (L) (setf acc 0) (loop for x in L (incf acc x))) ?
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2017-06-14T22:57:21Z emaczen: Alright, I'm trying to create some persistent objects and I wish to create a persistent linked-list. I want to make this a subclass of an already existent linked-list I have defined. This new persistent linked-list would therefore have a metaclass that is "persistent" but would inherit from a class with metaclass "standard-class" -- the error I am getting is that my class is not yet finalized.
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2017-06-14T22:57:34Z aeth: In terms of style, you should use - instead of _ and write using lower case alone (which is then internally upper cased due to historical compatibility)
2017-06-14T22:57:36Z emaczen: I already overrode validate-superclass with the different metaclasses
2017-06-14T22:57:40Z Bike: s3a: acc is not defined. setf is setting, not defining/binding/declaring.
2017-06-14T22:57:45Z aeth: setf shouldn't be used on something that's not defined, use let for that instead.
2017-06-14T22:57:55Z Bike: and the loop is wrong, you meant (loop for x in L do (incf acc x))
2017-06-14T22:58:16Z Bike: emaczen: the error you get when you do what?
2017-06-14T22:58:20Z aeth: and, in fact, loop is complicated enough that you can (I forget how) just put a temporary variable directly inside of it
2017-06-14T22:58:30Z aeth: so you can define acc in the loop body.
2017-06-14T22:58:34Z Bike: "with acc = 0" as mentioned
2017-06-14T22:58:37Z emaczen: Bike: define this new persistent class
2017-06-14T22:59:11Z Bike: so you do (defclass persistent-linked-list (linked-list) ... (:metaclass persistent-class)) and get an error about persistent-linked-list not being finalized?
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2017-06-14T23:00:11Z emaczen: Bike: I have not finished overriding the methods for the persistent class.
2017-06-14T23:00:44Z Bike: i just want to know what, precisely, you do to trigger the error, and what that error precisely is
2017-06-14T23:00:44Z emaczen: Bike: I wanted to test it out on this class though... maybe I'll try a simpler class first
2017-06-14T23:01:52Z emaczen: Bike: Yes, your form is what I have
2017-06-14T23:01:55Z emaczen: evaluated
2017-06-14T23:02:00Z s3a: Bike, why is (some_function '(4 5 6)) returning NIL? http://dpaste.com/2VCTGG2
2017-06-14T23:04:28Z Bike: because you don't actually return acc.
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2017-06-14T23:06:01Z Bike: emaczen: and what class is it that's not finalized
2017-06-14T23:06:17Z Bike: and is that the form that actually triggers the error, or is it something else
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2017-06-14T23:16:02Z emaczen: Bike: I have even simpler example
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2017-06-14T23:16:21Z emaczen: (defclass serializable-class (standard-class) ())
2017-06-14T23:16:53Z emaczen: (defclass serializable-employee () (...) (:metaclass serializable-class))
2017-06-14T23:19:10Z emaczen: Bike: Sorry I'm having more issues... I'm trying to simplify my examples down but I'm over-simplifying...
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2017-06-14T23:39:04Z s3a: Bike, what exactly is being shown when I do something like (disassemble #'some_function)? I don't even pass parameters to the function that should have parameters, yet the disassemble function knows how to disassemble the passed function. I guess I don't fully understand what disassembly is (in this context, at least).
2017-06-14T23:40:33Z s3a: Bike, http://dpaste.com/12DNANW and http://dpaste.com/34FN0N6
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2017-06-14T23:41:40Z s3a: Bike, does fewer byte code instructions always mean an algorithm is more efficient?
2017-06-14T23:43:20Z s3a: (sorry for asking so many probably-stupid questions)
2017-06-14T23:43:35Z Bike: don't worry about asking questions
2017-06-14T23:43:55Z Bike: i'm not sure i understand why you expect disassembly should need arguments. could you explain what you think disassembly is?
2017-06-14T23:44:12Z Bike: and no, fewer instructions does not mean more efficiency, it just means the algorithm is shorter to write. same as code
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2017-06-14T23:45:54Z s3a: Bike, I felt that disassembly would require that the function passed to it has its arguments passed to it. so, the disassembly function should have, say, some_function passed to it and some_function should have, say, arg passed to it, and I thought disassembly was going over every single step the algorithm would have taken.
2017-06-14T23:46:04Z s3a: :)
2017-06-14T23:46:54Z Bike: ah. no.
2017-06-14T23:47:28Z Bike: when you compile a function it is translated into some kind of format that is easier to do quickly. on sbcl it's machine code, on clisp it's virtual machine bytecode.
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2017-06-14T23:47:35Z Bike: disassemble just shows you that representation of the function.
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2017-06-14T23:49:20Z s3a: oh, that makes sense. (not that I fully understand the specifics of its output)
2017-06-14T23:49:40Z Bike: me neither.
2017-06-14T23:49:47Z s3a: oh. :P
2017-06-14T23:49:58Z Bike: but the one for sum-list2 is pretty clearly short and has some kind of "apply".
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2017-06-14T23:50:56Z s3a: but how do we know that that is more efficient? couldn't apply be "beautifully" abstracting away something even less efficient?
2017-06-14T23:51:39Z s3a: basically, what's a reliable way to compare two algorithms? whether theoretically or using some kind of tool
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2017-06-14T23:51:45Z s3a: i prefer theoretically
2017-06-14T23:52:14Z s3a: well, i mean specifically comparing non-higher-order to higher-order
2017-06-14T23:52:19Z s3a: functions
2017-06-14T23:52:36Z Bike: we don't know it's more or less efficient, i am thinking heuristically based on my experience as a programmer and compiler developer
2017-06-14T23:52:49Z Bike: well, no, we do know it's more efficient, you timed it. that's empiricism that is
2017-06-14T23:53:21Z Bike: you want to compare "non-higher-order" to "higher-order" but the problem is that you leave too many degrees of freedom
2017-06-14T23:53:59Z s3a: Bike could we just focus on the two functions I gave, as a starting point?
2017-06-14T23:54:16Z Bike: I know, I mean, there are underlying properties that are ambiguous
2017-06-14T23:54:18Z s3a: higher-order: http://dpaste.com/2FJADD5 non-higher-order: http://dpaste.com/0XJ5820
2017-06-14T23:54:44Z Bike: the iterative implementation will probably be faster on a computer based on sequential execution of instructions, but that's not the only kind of computer there is, you know?
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2017-06-14T23:55:12Z s3a: Bike, are you talking about non-x86 processors?
2017-06-14T23:55:23Z Bike: nah, more exotic
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2017-06-14T23:55:58Z Bike: there are other issues as well, for example i can imagine a reasonable compiler design in which sum-list1 could be compiled more efficiently sometimes
2017-06-14T23:57:04Z Bike: or, a more reasonable example, with apply #'+, that could hypothetically be compiled by splitting up the problem into a binary tree and adding in parallel (not with standard +, but in general), whereas sum-list1 is rather forced to be sequential and eliminates this possiblity
2017-06-14T23:57:09Z Bike: there's just... a lot of stuff that can be done.
2017-06-14T23:57:30Z Bike: usually when you compare algorithms you just compare number of steps, in some sense, but that sense is not defined here, yeah?
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2017-06-14T23:59:13Z s3a: Bike, I'm getting exhausted, lol. :P
2017-06-14T23:59:25Z Bike: i'm verbose sometimes
2017-06-14T23:59:34Z s3a: :D
2017-06-14T23:59:44Z ebrasca: Bike: I like parallel but I don't know how to do it good.
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