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2017-06-09T02:12:17Z IamGoD_77: I wrote a simple function to collect the lines from a file and return them using a loop. The function never ended up returning. I swear I have used code identical to this and it worked before. I have tried running it in sbcl and clisp on two different machines. http://paste.lisp.org/display/348369
2017-06-09T02:13:32Z IamGoD_77: Forgot to ask: Can someone check it out and tell me if I am crazy or not? :-) thanks!
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2017-06-09T02:14:27Z Bike: try replacing "when" with "while"
2017-06-09T02:16:38Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-06-09T02:17:10Z IamGoD_77: Bike: Thank you!! Silly me.
2017-06-09T02:17:50Z IamGoD_77: I have no idea how I did not catch that.
2017-06-09T02:18:39Z beach: I think I have a clue.  It is nearly impossible for the author himself/herself to see many errors.  That's why we have proofreaders.
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2017-06-09T02:21:42Z IamGoD_77: I guess your right, but it is frustrating that I couldn't catch such an obvious syntatical error.
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2017-06-09T02:23:50Z IamGoD_77: Time to reread Loop for blackbelts in practical common lisp. :D see ya!
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2017-06-09T03:23:50Z afidegnum: hello, on Emacs,  please how do i add a package file into my load-path? i did package-refresh but can't install a new package
2017-06-09T03:24:09Z afidegnum: i receive no answer on emacs and emacs-beginners channel that's why i m asking here,
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2017-06-09T03:35:05Z vtomole: afidegnum: What command did you do? Did you do add-to-list?
2017-06-09T03:36:34Z afidegnum: vtomole: i m removing it,
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2017-06-09T04:25:05Z flavio81: it's always so quiet here?
2017-06-09T04:25:26Z flavio81: lisp's IRC winter
2017-06-09T04:31:07Z beach: flavio81: No.
2017-06-09T04:31:23Z beach: flavio81: But people tend to utter things only when it is necessary.
2017-06-09T04:31:45Z beach: flavio81: If you have a question, you will get plenty of answers.  But it might depend on the time of day.
2017-06-09T04:32:28Z beach: flavio81: Right now it is around midnight in the US and early morning in Europe, so few people are active.
2017-06-09T04:32:38Z pillton: I think there is #lisp-cafe or #lispcafe too.
2017-06-09T04:32:48Z flavio81: i'm online at those channels right now too
2017-06-09T04:33:05Z flavio81: i haven't entered an IRC channel since year 2007 or so.
2017-06-09T04:33:15Z beach: flavio81: pillton is up because he is in Australia, and loke is up because he is in Singapore.
2017-06-09T04:33:39Z beach: I'm up because of a genetic defect in my family that makes us wake up early.
2017-06-09T04:33:45Z flavio81: but yesterday I met a fellow lisper in my country (which means now my country has *two* Common Lispers), and he suggested me to wander around here
2017-06-09T04:34:14Z flavio81: beach, consider yourself genetically blessed. I can't wake up before 8am without feeling like 50% of my brain has gone nil
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2017-06-09T04:34:23Z beach: flavio81: What country is that?
2017-06-09T04:34:30Z flavio81: PERU, south america
2017-06-09T04:34:42Z flavio81: the lisper is PuercoPop which I guess some of you know
2017-06-09T04:34:49Z beach: Indeed.
2017-06-09T04:34:56Z flavio81: it seems the CL community is really small, which is nice and sad at the same time
2017-06-09T04:35:50Z beach: It's the quality that counts.  This channel is known for being very helpful, very accurate, and very knowledgeable.
2017-06-09T04:35:57Z pillton: At least the CL community is nice.
2017-06-09T04:36:10Z flavio81: so PuercoPop said the same: the only other Peruvian i know that was a Lisper was Maynard Kong. (Maynard Kong was an university professor, my professor too, and indeed the first exposure i had to lisp was thanks to a book he wrote on AI)
2017-06-09T04:36:36Z flavio81: you are already being very nice to me
2017-06-09T04:36:53Z flavio81: i must confess it was exciting to find another peruvian that was very deep into CL
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2017-06-09T04:37:25Z flavio81: another exciting thing was that when i searched for a web framework for CL, the first one I found was implemented by a south-american, Fernando Borreti (eudoxia0)
2017-06-09T04:37:34Z flavio81: it was a nice thing to see
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2017-06-09T04:38:31Z flavio81: i was trying Lucerne (his framework) today, by default it launches Hunchentoot, and i guess that immediately i enjoyed the advantage of being able to recompile controllers/routers while the server was running and see how new requests are handled by the new versions of the request handlers
2017-06-09T04:39:05Z flavio81: that's something you can't easily have on other environments like, for example, python (w/werkzeug), etc
2017-06-09T04:39:50Z beach: flavio81: I am glad you found the right place.
2017-06-09T04:40:14Z flavio81: so what i'm doing now is trying to see which set of libraries can be a good combination for enabling quick web application prototyping, and find a way to convince my bosses that CL is the way to go for rapid prototyping.
2017-06-09T04:40:20Z flavio81: thanks beach !
2017-06-09T04:40:22Z flavio81: where're you from?
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2017-06-09T04:41:31Z beach: flavio81: That's a very tough question for me to answer.  I have lived in 5 countries on 4 continents.  I have spent the past 30 years near Bordeaux in France.
2017-06-09T04:41:45Z flavio81: are you the author of Bordeaux Threads ?
2017-06-09T04:41:49Z beach: I am not, no.
2017-06-09T04:42:12Z flavio81: that's an example of how impressed i was with the state of the lisp ecosystem
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2017-06-09T04:42:22Z beach: But it all started here, when I ran a get-together for Lispers some 15 years ago.
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2017-06-09T04:42:57Z flavio81: in node (to put just an example of something that is in fashion), there must be like 100,000 NPM packages, however for CL it seems that I can find at least two packages/ASDFsystems that do what I need
2017-06-09T04:43:09Z flavio81: wow
2017-06-09T04:43:20Z flavio81: so you're the one that is usually most often online here at #lisp ?
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2017-06-09T04:44:09Z beach: As I recall, there are hundreds of people here, dozens of which are very active.  I am one of the active ones, yes.
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2017-06-09T04:44:34Z beach: minion: memo for vtomole: I improved the SICL README https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL so that it now contains instructions for starting a REPL.  Please check it out and give me feedback.
2017-06-09T04:44:34Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell vtomole when he/she/it next speaks.
2017-06-09T04:45:10Z beach: Not restricted to vtomole, obviously.
2017-06-09T04:45:39Z flavio81: beach, do you think that with the emergence of WebAssembly will liberate the browsers from their submission to javascript, and thus, open a new opportunity for CL to have a little more usage ?
2017-06-09T04:45:55Z beach: I have no idea.  Sorry.
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2017-06-09T04:47:01Z flavio81: it is something that is getting me thinking a lot lately
2017-06-09T04:47:39Z flavio81: mozilla foundation is pushing for webassembly to become a standard on browsers. Webassembly is basically a specification for bytecode and a VM that runs said bytecode on the web browser
2017-06-09T04:48:02Z flavio81: thus you can compile from any language to webassembly bytecode (or use webassembly assembler to produce bytecode)
2017-06-09T04:49:06Z flavio81: even right now, if I understand correctly, you can write Common Lisp, compile it to LLVM bytecode, and then use the "emscripten" tool to translate it into Webassembly bytecode, which then can be executed by a Firefox browser
2017-06-09T04:49:34Z flavio81: to me, it sounds exciting that one could write CL and run it at the browser.
2017-06-09T04:49:47Z beach: flavio81: It is probably not that easy.
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2017-06-09T04:50:28Z beach: flavio81: Common Lisp needs a significant run-time environment, and it tends to be implementation-specific.
2017-06-09T04:50:47Z beach: So first, we would have to settle on a particular implementation to run in browsers.
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2017-06-09T04:51:10Z beach: That should keep the community busy for the next decade or so.
2017-06-09T04:51:14Z flavio81: lol
2017-06-09T04:51:49Z beach: Or else, you restrict the "any language" to a dumb subset of Common Lisp, which has it's own problems.  For one thing, someone would have to define such a subset.
2017-06-09T04:52:10Z beach: Then, someone would have to write a compiler for that subset.
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2017-06-09T04:52:58Z flavio81: i have not examined the opcodes of the webassembly's bytecode+VM specification
2017-06-09T04:53:20Z flavio81: but what you mean is that perhaps they are not powerful enough for implementing a full ANSI compliant CL environment ?
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2017-06-09T04:53:31Z beach: That sounds very likely.
2017-06-09T04:53:45Z flavio81: "Or else, you restrict the "any language" to a dumb subset of Common Lisp, which has it's own problems"
2017-06-09T04:53:56Z flavio81: but on the other hand, that's not such a bad idea, you know?
2017-06-09T04:54:42Z beach: Dumbing down Common Lisp?  Sounds bad to me.
2017-06-09T04:55:06Z flavio81: let me explain...
2017-06-09T04:55:15Z flavio81: of course sounds very bad
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2017-06-09T04:56:43Z flavio81: what i mean is that, perhaps it wouldn't be a bad idea to create a subset of Common Lisp that has a limited set of keywords, and also introduces easier to remember aliases or macros for common operations. That would be a subset implemented in CL as a CL package that can be :used. let's call it CL-small or something like that. The idea is that any C
2017-06-09T04:56:43Z flavio81: L-small program is automatically a CL program,
2017-06-09T04:57:04Z whoman: https://github.com/drmeister/clasp
2017-06-09T04:57:25Z flavio81: but CL-small is easy to teach, powerful enough for many tasks, and is small enough to be made to work into, for example, the mozilla firefox browser under webassembly
2017-06-09T04:57:51Z flavio81: so we write tutorials for CL-small and then people is able to also create programs that will also work under a serious CL compiler
2017-06-09T04:58:35Z beach: flavio81: I think "we" are busy with other things.  But if you want to take on such a task, then please go right ahead.
2017-06-09T04:58:46Z whoman: "Clasp is a new Common Lisp implementation that seamlessly interoperates with C++ libraries and programs using LLVM for compilation to native code. "
2017-06-09T04:58:46Z flavio81: :(
2017-06-09T04:59:23Z flavio81: yes, i mentioned the theoretical possibility of compiling CL to LLVM and then translating LLVM to Webassembly using emscripten
2017-06-09T04:59:29Z whoman: everything is already being done
2017-06-09T04:59:47Z flavio81: but i have not tried it, and if it works, i don't know how performant is it. Beach has a point, the CL environment is not a small thing
2017-06-09T04:59:59Z beach: whoman: So you are going to impose the Clasp run-time environment on every browser?
2017-06-09T05:00:47Z whoman: i me my what?
2017-06-09T05:00:59Z aeth: flavio81: I'd much rather have a cl-large that added some things that are currently nonportable so that they can be used portably.
2017-06-09T05:01:10Z whoman: webassembly has some s-expression going for it lets just code that
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2017-06-09T05:02:14Z flavio81: whoman: the s-expression language is for assembling (using webassembly). It is an extremely limited language with very specific, strict, limited, narrow datatypes like 64-bit int and the like
2017-06-09T05:02:30Z holycow: oh it does: https://auth0.com/blog/7-things-you-should-know-about-web-assembly/
2017-06-09T05:02:32Z whoman: http://google.com/search?q=common+lisp+webassembly   hmm quite a few leads from a few years ago even. have you searched?
2017-06-09T05:02:34Z flavio81: aeth: you are fully correct, and yes, that's something that i see is needed
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2017-06-09T05:02:53Z flavio81: gonna look at those links
2017-06-09T05:03:03Z whoman: also on that list, 'common lisp tooling for webassembly' which looks interesting
2017-06-09T05:03:16Z whoman: also some discussions and more leads etc.
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2017-06-09T05:04:10Z flavio81: beach: the idea is that if I want my company to use CL for RAD web development, i need to be able to quickly train the youngsters that have been led by the sadomasochistic path of Java into common lisp. And for this, CL-small could be helpful. Again, it would be an easy to learn subset, but at the same time CL-small programs would also be CL progra
2017-06-09T05:04:10Z flavio81: ms and the learner could then learn the whole of CL.
2017-06-09T05:04:25Z whoman: ocaml has been compiling to js since compiling to js
2017-06-09T05:04:54Z flavio81: eitaro fukamachi has already had a sort-of-similar idea with his "CL21" project. although he is not aiming to create an educational CL, but to have a new standard keyword set that is a bit more consistent and easy to use
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2017-06-09T05:05:27Z flavio81: whoman: looking at yer links , thank you very much
2017-06-09T05:05:42Z whoman: also clojurescript and elm
2017-06-09T05:06:19Z whoman: those two, and also ceramic
2017-06-09T05:06:44Z whoman: if you havent seen ceramic and parenscript. its one avenue
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2017-06-09T05:09:21Z flavio81: yes, i've seen parenscript
2017-06-09T05:09:34Z flavio81: but parenscript translates to javascript. I am interested in going straight to webassembly
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2017-06-09T05:09:52Z flavio81: let's wait and see what happens in the next year
2017-06-09T05:10:35Z flavio81: whoman: clojurescript also translates to javascript
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2017-06-09T05:10:57Z flavio81: by the way, there's Lispyscript which is javascript but using s-expressions
2017-06-09T05:11:15Z flavio81: i guess it's a nice stuff to have
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2017-06-09T05:11:36Z whoman: yes, but these are tools for right now. js will at least be webassembly if you have java coders in your company. just lookin out
2017-06-09T05:11:52Z whoman: yep=) lots of options.
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2017-06-09T05:13:08Z flavio81: no, i don't have java coders. I have no coders, I am in the process of hiring. But the thing is that most of them have been molded into the Java mindset. For example when they think of OO; they think of OO within the realms of Java, that is, in a very limited implementation of OOP, with very narrow possibilities
2017-06-09T05:13:20Z flavio81: very much unlike the CLOS way of OOP
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2017-06-09T05:14:11Z flavio81: or for example their minds have been tarnished by the ugly "software patterns" books of the GoF, so they start wanting to apply those patterns everywhere, even when most of them make no sense in CL
2017-06-09T05:14:19Z flavio81: so i need to re-educate them
2017-06-09T05:15:18Z whoman: yeah, smalltalk and cl object systems are great. (this also include objective-j, cocoa, amber, ..)
2017-06-09T05:15:22Z flavio81: for some of them even writing idiomatic Python of JS is hard, i mean, they don't know how to take advantage of, for example, being able of freely passing functions around as parameters or returning new functions as the result of other ufnctions
2017-06-09T05:15:33Z flavio81: *functions
2017-06-09T05:15:42Z whoman: hmm. so you are going to hire students or coders?
2017-06-09T05:16:02Z flavio81: this is because, at least in my country, programming education is too much into imperative, procedural, and java-style OOP. they are molded into that mindset
2017-06-09T05:16:19Z shrdlu68: Morning, folks.
2017-06-09T05:16:40Z flavio81: i am open to hiring talented people that can learn fast. I don't think too much in age or experience. That will only, perhaps, drive the wage that I will be able to pay them.
2017-06-09T05:16:46Z flavio81: good morning
2017-06-09T05:16:54Z flavio81: (00:16h here)
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2017-06-09T05:17:26Z whoman: why not just hire what you need unless you plan to not only teach them but mentor them. re-education is not easy for someone to do on their own, let alone another person trying to do it to a person
2017-06-09T05:18:17Z flavio81: i will teach/or mentor them anyways, the thing is, i need to plan on how to teach in the most effective, quick way. That's why i thought of something like "CL-small"
2017-06-09T05:18:20Z whoman: if they are talented and learn fast, they can possibly not be stuck in one mode of thinking.
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2017-06-09T05:19:24Z flavio81: yes, that's true
2017-06-09T05:19:29Z flavio81: i'm a bit pessimistic sometimes
2017-06-09T05:19:45Z whoman: so how long does it take to make a new CL targeting webassembly and then teaching the people you hire, to selling product ..?
2017-06-09T05:19:50Z flavio81: beach: are you gone ? well
2017-06-09T05:19:55Z whoman: i was going to say, quite optimistic =)
2017-06-09T05:20:12Z beach: flavio81: No, I'm still here.
2017-06-09T05:20:24Z flavio81: whoman: no, when i spoke about webassembly it was just speculation about the future. I mean, i don't want to see client (browser) programming chained to javascript forever
2017-06-09T05:20:31Z beach: flavio81: But I have nothing to add in this discussion.
2017-06-09T05:20:47Z flavio81: beach: ok, i understand
2017-06-09T05:21:17Z whoman: webassembly is supported also in chrome and safari is also getting webrtc soon. the web platform is doing really well =)
2017-06-09T05:21:17Z flavio81: but from what i need at the company is RAD prototyping for web apps, and for that, i think i can use CL with, say, SBCL just fine.
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2017-06-09T05:21:37Z flavio81: whoman: didn't know it was already supported on safari
2017-06-09T05:21:38Z flavio81: wow
2017-06-09T05:22:30Z whoman: well. i just feel that Rapidly Developing Apps for prototyping will be more of a straight line from dev -> app. mixing in future CL implementation and teaching sounds more like an art project ^_^
2017-06-09T05:22:54Z flavio81: beach: what do you use CL for ? (i ask this nicely, i'm just curious to see a sample of what a real lisper is using CL currently for)
2017-06-09T05:23:08Z whoman: i am not sure if safari has webassembly - but that it is getting webrtc soon. as an example. we can do a lot in the web platform today right now
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2017-06-09T05:24:36Z beach: flavio81: I am trying to improve the Common Lisp tools.
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2017-06-09T05:26:04Z flavio81: beach: what projects are you currently in? (or can you tell me your GitHub url so i can take a look)
2017-06-09T05:26:33Z beach: Sure: https://github.com/robert-strandh
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2017-06-09T05:27:14Z flavio81: your name sounds famous to me. I think PuercoPop had told me about you yesterday (we were at a developer gathering and i had some beers, so my memory is not so good)
2017-06-09T05:27:44Z flavio81: (flavio takes a look at Beach's github page)
2017-06-09T05:28:36Z flavio81: (flavio is impressed!) So you're the creator of SICL !?
2017-06-09T05:28:42Z beach: Yes.
2017-06-09T05:28:45Z flavio81: i am not worthy, Mr. Strandh
2017-06-09T05:29:33Z beach: You'll get used to it.
2017-06-09T05:29:34Z flavio81: "well-specified-common-lisp". interesting !!
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2017-06-09T05:30:18Z flavio81: LispOS
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2017-06-09T05:31:06Z flavio81: so many interesting stuff to try!
2017-06-09T05:31:24Z beach: Most of it is work in progress, so can't be tried.
2017-06-09T05:31:28Z flavio81: haha
2017-06-09T05:32:13Z beach: Some things work, though.  McCLIM is doing quite well.  The Cleavir compiler framework is used by Clasp.
2017-06-09T05:32:31Z beach: Some libraries are quite functional.
2017-06-09T05:32:41Z flavio81: beach: so of course i understand that an idea like "CL-small" will not be something that you would like to work on, however, i do think that not only 'cleaning up' the CL implementations so they have standarized/common libraries for things that the ANSI spec lack (like for example, say, software transactional memory or threading),
2017-06-09T05:33:56Z beach: Threading is taken care of as far as I know.
2017-06-09T05:34:21Z flavio81: but on the other hand i think that the community needs to try to make newcomers to the CL language have an easy entry point. What i mean that, if in the near future, more interest into CL could be generated, then more people would eventually end up on the CL community and within a few years they will also be the ones who will be collaborating on th
2017-06-09T05:34:21Z flavio81: e serious projects for CL
2017-06-09T05:34:32Z flavio81: beach;: ok, wrong example then
2017-06-09T05:34:55Z flavio81: beach: sorry if i'm rambling too much. it's the caffeine.
2017-06-09T05:35:34Z beach: Don't worry about it.  As long as it's on topic, you are in good company.
2017-06-09T05:35:56Z flavio81: thanks beach !!
2017-06-09T05:35:56Z beach: Soon, you will find out that all these issues have been debated to death.
2017-06-09T05:36:01Z flavio81: LOL
2017-06-09T05:36:10Z flavio81: i shall keep quiet then
2017-06-09T05:36:12Z beach: ... which is why I am not intervening.
2017-06-09T05:36:28Z flavio81: the sounds of silence
2017-06-09T05:36:59Z beach: It is fine for you to figure out what other people think about these issues.
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2017-06-09T05:38:34Z beach: flavio81: I wasn't trying to discourage you from discussing.  I am just explaining why I have nothing to say.
2017-06-09T05:39:16Z flavio81: is SICL a fully conforming ANSI common lisp already ?
2017-06-09T05:39:37Z beach: No, it is very much work in progress.
2017-06-09T05:40:49Z flavio81: i did read about SICL some days ago, i was interested by the part that said " It is intentionally divided into many implementation-independent modules that are written in a totally or near-totally portable way, so as to allow other implementations to incorporate these modules ..."; sounds really like something that could be a big step for the CL ec
2017-06-09T05:40:49Z flavio81: osystem,
2017-06-09T05:41:09Z flavio81: but i had that very same question --- how close to fully-implemented is SICL? that's why i asked.
2017-06-09T05:41:19Z beach: Currently, I am working on the Concrete Syntax Tree library that Cleavir will use to keep track of source locations.  And Second Climacs will use the same library as well to do incremental compilation of editor-buffer contents.
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2017-06-09T05:42:08Z beach: Pretty much all the code is in there.  I am working on the bootstrapping process.
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2017-06-09T05:42:59Z flavio81: i am just reading the introduction to your Cleavir paper...
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2017-06-09T05:47:37Z flavio81: my head will asplode
2017-06-09T05:49:06Z flavio81: so SICL is built using Cleavir as the core for converting the source into an AST and then such AST into the final compiler output?
2017-06-09T05:49:40Z beach: Correct.  ASTs are converted to HIR (High-level Intermediate Representation).
2017-06-09T05:49:57Z flavio81: and cleavir applies optimizations once the code is in HIR form ?
2017-06-09T05:49:57Z beach: A lot of transformations are done on HIR (path replication, type inference, etc).
2017-06-09T05:50:02Z beach: Yes.
2017-06-09T05:50:04Z flavio81: i see
2017-06-09T05:50:37Z beach: Some of them.  The ones that manipulate Common Lisp objects (as opposed to machine numbers and addresses).
2017-06-09T05:50:46Z flavio81: the final step where the transformed/massaged HIR is turned into machine language opcodes, is also done using Cleavir?
2017-06-09T05:51:39Z beach: HIR->MIR is implementation specific because it depends on how objects are represented.  But we will supply optimizations traditionally done in MIR as well.
2017-06-09T05:51:50Z flavio81: interesting
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2017-06-09T05:52:01Z beach: MIR exposes address calculations, so there is stuff to be done there too.
2017-06-09T05:52:25Z flavio81: so the final HIR->MIR step is done using a different tool/module that of course i understand that in SICL such modules will be "plugabble" to have one compiler being able to target many platforms
2017-06-09T05:52:40Z flavio81: i see i see
2017-06-09T05:53:10Z beach: Cleavir uses generic functions a lot, so implementation add methods to those generic functions in order to customize its behavior.
2017-06-09T05:53:23Z beach: Different steps require different degrees of customization.
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2017-06-09T05:54:53Z flavio81: well, again, i'm not worthy... I'm just a :cl-user, for me the compilers are black boxes that do magic stuff, and people who write compilers live in another plane of existence, the compiler hacker lives in "a more beautiful world where great spirits make fun of him and set him difficult tasks"
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2017-06-09T05:55:09Z flavio81: (by the way, the last quote is part of a beautiful quote by Ludwig Van Beethoven)
2017-06-09T05:55:27Z beach: Nice.
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2017-06-09T05:56:25Z beach: flavio81: There are all kinds of people hanging out here on #lisp.  You will feel right at home.
2017-06-09T05:56:36Z flavio81: sorry for the off topic quote !
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2017-06-09T05:59:41Z flavio81: beach: thanks for the patience, it has been such a nice place
2017-06-09T06:00:12Z flavio81: need to go back to SLIME now and keep learning
2017-06-09T06:00:29Z flavio81: see you tomorrow !! thanks !!
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2017-06-09T07:59:36Z AndreasO: Problem: installed CCL locally in the user account, downloaded quicklisp and run lx86cl --load quicklisp.lisp. Then when I run the install it says already installed and (ql:add-to-init-file) doesn't work because ql not installed. What's wrong?
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2017-06-09T08:01:30Z phoe: AndreasO: (load "~/quicklisp/setup.lisp")
2017-06-09T08:01:34Z dim: you're missing the setup step
2017-06-09T08:01:38Z phoe: (ql:add-to-init-file)
2017-06-09T08:02:17Z AndreasO: phoe: do I run that inside CCL?
2017-06-09T08:02:35Z phoe: AndreasO: yes.
2017-06-09T08:02:43Z phoe: actually
2017-06-09T08:02:58Z AndreasO: Missed that.
2017-06-09T08:03:04Z phoe: if you load the quicklisp quickstart, after it errors
2017-06-09T08:03:10Z phoe: you should have a restart available.
2017-06-09T08:03:21Z phoe: that will autoload the installed quicklisp's setup for you.
2017-06-09T08:03:48Z dim: it is not always obvious how to call a restart interactively from the console, I've seen plenty reports about that about pgloader build failures
2017-06-09T08:04:21Z phoe: dim: yep.
2017-06-09T08:05:05Z AndreasO: Can't see that the setup stage is mentioned on the quicklisp install page. Installed everything on win without hiccups.
2017-06-09T08:05:37Z phoe: AndreasO: the setup stage is what the (ql:add-to-init-file) does automatically.
2017-06-09T08:05:53Z phoe: it adds loading the quicklisp setup file to your Lisp's init file, so it happens automatically.
2017-06-09T08:07:00Z AndreasO: phoe: but I can't run that line after the CCL --load... but I'll try it again.
2017-06-09T08:07:45Z phoe: AndreasO: don't load it.
2017-06-09T08:07:52Z phoe: run just the CCL executable.
2017-06-09T08:07:56Z dim: AndreasO: just run interactively, that is enter ccl (or ccl64) then at the ? prompt you can enter (load "~/quicklisp/setup.lisp") and hit RET to execute
2017-06-09T08:08:03Z phoe: ^
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2017-06-09T08:08:36Z AndreasO: Ok, I'll do it. When I get to the laptop.
2017-06-09T08:08:37Z dim: (but then ^D doesn't quit, you have to do (quit) RET)
2017-06-09T08:09:53Z AndreasO: I've been stuck in Racket, it's time to dig deep into CL now. And I like parallelism so I need lparallel.
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2017-06-09T08:11:48Z AndreasO: Thanks for helping out!
2017-06-09T08:14:52Z dim: I'm using lparallel in pgloader and I like it very much
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2017-06-09T09:40:46Z jdz: I've opted for ChanL in my application (fits my thinking better).
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2017-06-09T13:12:28Z madrik: Greetings.
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2017-06-09T13:19:39Z phoe: hallo
2017-06-09T13:19:48Z beach: Hello madrik.  Hello phoe.
2017-06-09T13:20:04Z madrik: beach: hello
2017-06-09T13:20:59Z madrik: A concentrated session of programming in Lisp makes days of C bearable.
2017-06-09T13:21:20Z phoe: weeks of programming can save you hours of planning
2017-06-09T13:21:30Z phoe: but yes, I have the same feeling except I'm doing Java
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2017-06-09T14:13:24Z flip214: phoe: do you prototype in lisp?
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2017-06-09T14:34:49Z phoe: flip214: not really.
2017-06-09T14:34:56Z phoe: but I write my own tiny tools and apps in Lisp.
2017-06-09T14:35:20Z phoe: my most finished one right now is https://github.com/phoe/raptor-launcher - a launcher and account manager for a game.
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2017-06-09T14:36:14Z phoe: but the work stuff - not really. The corporate project I'm in is rather hostile towards anything that is not Java.
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2017-06-09T14:37:11Z _death: heh, I thought it was about Raptor: Call of the Shadows
2017-06-09T14:37:33Z phoe: aah, that's a good day
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2017-06-09T14:49:19Z whoman: beach, are you writing code in McCLIM , or Second Climacs ?
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2017-06-09T15:05:42Z beach: whoman: Yes, both.
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2017-06-09T15:14:42Z dim: phoe: use ABCL and deploy .jar written in Common Lisp?
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2017-06-09T16:38:20Z phoe: dim: that might be an option. I need to figure out how to do it.
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2017-06-09T17:27:25Z whoman: beach, ok
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2017-06-09T19:02:12Z akkad: phoe: I used jruby @ibm for years. they just assumed it was a dsl
2017-06-09T19:02:18Z akkad: "here is your jar"
2017-06-09T19:03:24Z akkad: although gambit has targets for java/php/c so you could do a CL-esque compat layer on top
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2017-06-09T19:11:29Z akkad: have there been any efforts to support CL on a scheme?
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2017-06-09T19:15:41Z Bike: like a CL implementation written in scheme? or scheme with a CL library?
2017-06-09T19:22:14Z Bike: Anyone happen to know about POIU?
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2017-06-09T19:33:21Z aeth: Easiest way to have a Scheme with a CL library would probably be to write a Scheme in CL and have a CLFFI.
2017-06-09T19:34:17Z aeth: Next easiest way, and perhaps more practical, would probably be to use Guile's elisp compatibility as a starting point for a full CL. elisp and CL are close languages.
2017-06-09T19:34:42Z aeth: It'd be much harder than the first way, though.
2017-06-09T19:34:46Z _death: elisp is a much more complicated language
2017-06-09T19:36:41Z dlowe: heh. I wonder if the guile vm could support a CL implementation. That'd be pretty amusing.
2017-06-09T19:37:02Z shka_: yes, this should be possible
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2017-06-09T19:38:50Z aeth: If you want a *full*, popular Scheme with CL compatibility, Guile would be the way to go. If you want a technically-a-Scheme Scheme with *extremely fast* CL compatibility, writing a Scheme in CL would be the way to go.
2017-06-09T19:39:55Z aeth: There's going to be a performance hit somewhere, either on the Scheme side or on the CL side.
2017-06-09T19:42:13Z aeth: Although I suspect running a Scheme on top of SBCL or CCL could be performance-competitive with major Schemes.
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2017-06-09T19:46:18Z aeth: (The main issue with that approach would be that you wouldn't be able to interface with a meaningful ecosystem of Scheme programs without some porting, anyway.)
2017-06-09T19:47:00Z loke___: aeth: Are schemes slower than, say, SBCL in general?
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2017-06-09T19:47:13Z aeth: loke___: Much.
2017-06-09T19:47:35Z aeth: loke___: But think about what microbenchmarked SBCL is. It doesn't look very much like idiomatic CL, either. You have type declarations, for instance.
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2017-06-09T19:49:03Z aeth: Type declarations are more important in CL than in Scheme, though, because with Scheme you'd have foo-map, taking in foos and returning foos, while in CL you have map 'foo, which can take in any sequence.
2017-06-09T19:49:38Z aeth: You still have some very key things, though, like arithmetic.
2017-06-09T19:49:48Z akkad: gambit is usually faster than sbcl
2017-06-09T19:50:27Z aeth: Schemes afaik seem to be split between fast Schemes and popular Schemes.
2017-06-09T19:50:38Z aeth: This might change, particularly with Racket, in the near future, though.
2017-06-09T19:50:50Z akkad: racket with a jit is quite fast. but a memory hog
2017-06-09T19:50:50Z dlowe: Racket has been around for a long time now.
2017-06-09T19:51:13Z aeth: Iirc, Racket is moving its backend.
2017-06-09T19:51:21Z akkad: right to chez
2017-06-09T19:52:52Z aeth: In CL, there is much more of a focus on portability and compatibility, so the popular implementations are the fast ones (for the most part).
2017-06-09T19:53:24Z Xach: that focus is somewhat recent
2017-06-09T19:53:50Z akkad: aeth: like how do you call (exit) portably in CL? :P
2017-06-09T19:54:11Z akkad: what is not covered by the clhs could about fit in the grand canyon
2017-06-09T19:55:07Z aeth: akkad: There definitely needs to be another standard. De facto, at least. Don't pay the $M required to make it official.
2017-06-09T19:55:52Z aeth: There already is a new de facto standard. Wherever SBCL, CCL, ECL, ABCL, etc., all agree.
2017-06-09T19:56:37Z aeth: (Or, at least, mostly agree.)
2017-06-09T19:57:19Z akkad: yeah I mean the r7rs is a great example
2017-06-09T19:57:24Z aeth: e.g. byte arrays are definitely a thing even though the standard only calls for bit arrays. Same with single-float and double-float arrays. CLISP is the only implementation I've tested on that doesn't have single-float or double-float arrays.
2017-06-09T19:57:32Z akkad: setup a voting process, and name it something
2017-06-09T19:57:56Z aeth: And the fixnum minimum size for 64-bit implementations *is* 60, except on CLISP, where (iirc) 48 is clearly an outlier, and not conforming with the de facto reasonable standard.
2017-06-09T19:58:31Z aeth: A de facto standard would do a good job shaming CLISP into raising its fixnum size and adding support for single-float and double-float arrays, ideally.
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2017-06-09T19:58:52Z aeth: I'm sure there's some other implementation that is rogue alone against the others in other areas that I haven't happened to test. I didn't mean to single out CLISP.
2017-06-09T20:00:24Z aeth: Another minimum that would be very useful to establish in portable code is the minimum for array-total-size-limit and related constants. http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/v_ar_tot.htm
2017-06-09T20:00:43Z aeth: 1024 is hilariously low, and it's probably much higher than that in practice in all implementations.
2017-06-09T20:01:03Z aeth: If you have strings longer than 1024 in your program that you think is conforming, it's actually not.
2017-06-09T20:01:12Z Xach: implementations get updated when people are motivated to do so. there are many different motivations in progress in CLs currently.
2017-06-09T20:01:52Z Xach: well perhaps not "many". but each one is different.
2017-06-09T20:03:06Z Xach: what is persuasive enough to someone with the skill and capacity to update sbcl will not work the same for clozure cl or clisp.
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2017-06-09T20:16:42Z dim: is clisp still maintained at all?
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2017-06-09T20:17:58Z dim: I was happy to play with it for its capability to handle the terminal directly without any library support, but then it can't output utf-8 ; and then I failed to output utf-8 in the terminal with curses too because of wchar_t API not being exposed in the lisp world IIUC
2017-06-09T20:18:00Z dim: UURC
2017-06-09T20:18:06Z dim: arf, if I remember correctly
2017-06-09T20:18:25Z dim: (defvar *mine* "♣") (defvar *flag* "⚑")
2017-06-09T20:18:54Z dim: anyway, that was my opportunity to rant it seems ;-)
2017-06-09T20:19:09Z rpg: AFAICT clisp is *maintained*, but no one can figure out how to make a release.
2017-06-09T20:19:14Z akkad: ,clhs uiop
2017-06-09T20:19:38Z rpg: akkad: UIOP is a foundational library for ASDF: it won't be in the hyperspec
2017-06-09T20:21:20Z akkad: yeap
2017-06-09T20:21:25Z akkad: I use it all the time
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2017-06-09T20:22:34Z _death: you asked for a portable way.. it's distinct from a standard way
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2017-06-09T20:23:58Z rpg: akkad: I was just responding to your "clhs"
2017-06-09T20:24:13Z akkad: right. the point being common items often require n number libs to provide
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2017-06-09T20:41:28Z prxq: rpg: no one can figure out how to make a release?
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2017-06-09T21:11:45Z aeth: akkad: I have no problem with relying on portability libraries. The issue is things that libraries cannot provide.
2017-06-09T21:13:25Z akkad: given x, how do you get the n element of x? elt? nth? aref? getf?
2017-06-09T21:13:39Z aeth: If CL is to have a future 20 years from now, I think there would need to be a focus on types and data structures in the implementation-level.
2017-06-09T21:13:48Z akkad: right
2017-06-09T21:14:43Z aeth: A general accessor for indexable things (not just elt/aref, also gethash/getf/etc., would be fairly easy
2017-06-09T21:15:10Z aeth: Doing so efficiently, and potentially including user-defined data structures no
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2017-06-09T21:17:32Z aeth: It basically all revolves around types and data structures
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2017-06-09T21:26:45Z foom: It seems to me its future will look very much like its present. I'm really not really sure what would convince the people still using CL to abandon it and use something else.
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2017-06-09T21:34:02Z aeth: Based on trends in other, similar languages, things that future CLs will have (or at least major ones like SBCL) will probably be optional type annotations (SBCL, at the very least, has something like this for how it treats its type declarations)...
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2017-06-09T21:35:15Z aeth: And probably more of a focus on pure functional programming.
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2017-06-09T21:43:25Z shka_: type declarations are part of the standard
2017-06-09T21:43:43Z shka_: as for functional programming, we need libs, not another language
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2017-06-09T21:46:31Z aeth: how type declarations are treated varies
2017-06-09T21:46:41Z shka_: yes
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2017-06-09T21:52:34Z aeth: as for libs vs. language, we need language features that make libs possible
2017-06-09T21:55:20Z aeth: This is a good example. It only works on a few implementations. https://github.com/markcox80/specialization-store
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2017-06-09T21:56:18Z aeth: I suspect that the only core parts that need updating are related to types and data structures, with libraries being able to take care of the rest.
2017-06-09T21:56:36Z shka_: aeth: i have no idea what this is
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2017-06-09T21:57:07Z aeth: Anyway, afaik implementation updates are only needed to do something not at runtime and efficiently.
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2017-06-09T21:57:23Z Grue`: is there a common lisp http client that supports SOCKS proxies?
2017-06-09T21:57:43Z shka_: uh, dunno
2017-06-09T21:57:53Z aeth: shka_: Specialization-store is dispatch based on types, not too unlike + or elt in CL itself
2017-06-09T21:58:05Z aeth: iirc and afaik
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2017-06-09T21:58:31Z Grue`: http://drakma-devel.common-lisp.narkive.com/7iXRdL4u/socks5-proxy-support this looked promising, but looks like it was never merged
2017-06-09T21:59:04Z shka_: aeth: ok, i have no idea why i would want to use it
2017-06-09T22:00:05Z shka_: right, it may avoid runtime dispatch
2017-06-09T22:00:16Z shka_: it is kinda useful… i guess
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2017-06-09T22:00:39Z shka_: there are also inlined generic functions which serves the same purpose
2017-06-09T22:00:40Z aeth: if you want to define something like + or elt
2017-06-09T22:01:26Z shka_: how does that work?
2017-06-09T22:02:11Z aeth: inline generics won't help you with arrays
2017-06-09T22:02:14Z aeth: or numbers
2017-06-09T22:03:06Z shka_: ok, it is very late
2017-06-09T22:03:11Z shka_: i need to sleep
2017-06-09T22:03:45Z shka_: this looks like a nice hack, but personally i just don't need it
2017-06-09T22:04:23Z shka_: honestly i think that 99% persons around does not need it
2017-06-09T22:04:29Z aeth: I'm just holding it up to an example of something that can be done when implementations support something extra
2017-06-09T22:04:43Z aeth: instead of putting it directly in the language
2017-06-09T22:05:04Z aeth: I think the desired approach should be along those lines. Think about things that libraries could do, but can't currently.
2017-06-09T22:05:24Z shka_: well, those extra features put additional strain on implementations
2017-06-09T22:05:29Z aeth: And I supect it would almost entirely revolve around types and data structures.
2017-06-09T22:06:01Z aeth: shka_: Even if you don't use a feature directly, if it greatly simplifies a library, you might use it directly. That library can greatly simplify certain kinds of libraries, e.g. vector math ones.
2017-06-09T22:06:11Z shka_: riiiight
2017-06-09T22:06:12Z shka_: ok
2017-06-09T22:06:38Z shka_: i think that better examples would be first class envs
2017-06-09T22:07:17Z aeth: Well, it would mostly revolve around providing more information to macros, so, yes, that's a good example.
2017-06-09T22:09:12Z shka_: honestly, i don't think that this is dire need
2017-06-09T22:09:45Z shka_: but eventually should be addressed
2017-06-09T22:10:04Z shka_: anyway, good night
2017-06-09T22:12:34Z aeth: One thing I'd like to see is a little more of the niceness of CLOS ported over to structs. I understand that structs are sort of legacy compared to CLOS, but they've sort of developed a niche as a less dynamic (i.e. less runtime) CLOS.
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2017-06-09T22:19:45Z aeth: As for dire need? No. 10 year need? Maybe.
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2017-06-09T23:16:42Z raynold: ahh it's a wonderful day
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