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2017-06-08T00:05:36Z Xach: I have been puzzling over it for a while. I think adding keyword args to standard functions could be the way to go.
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2017-06-08T00:43:24Z _death: I like to use import-from
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2017-06-08T02:46:04Z deba5e12: hey, anyone here familiar with the drakma library?
2017-06-08T02:46:23Z deba5e12: "The alien function "CRYPTO_num_locks" is undefined.
2017-06-08T02:46:43Z deba5e12: is the error I'm getting. I'm guessing this is because of a version incompatibility in the openssl library?
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2017-06-08T02:50:51Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-06-08T02:51:17Z beach: deba5e12: This problem was discussed a month or so ago.  Check the logs.
2017-06-08T02:51:51Z deba5e12: i'll take a look. thanks
2017-06-08T02:52:29Z beach: 11:49:39 <mazoe> Bike: FYI, downgrading openssl (1.1.0.e-1 => 1.0.2.k-1) fixed it
2017-06-08T02:52:59Z beach: deba5e12: I know nothing about the problem, but I know how to use grep.
2017-06-08T02:54:26Z deba5e12: thanks.
2017-06-08T02:54:37Z beach: Sure.
2017-06-08T02:54:38Z deba5e12: I was just wgetting the logs for grepping now.
2017-06-08T03:00:42Z vtomole: beach: How do i set up SICL so that i could "use" it? Does it have a REPL?
2017-06-08T03:03:59Z beach: vtomole: You can't use it right now.
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2017-06-08T03:04:32Z beach: I can run it inside SBCL, but it is only for testing purposes now.
2017-06-08T03:04:56Z Bike: i fixed up the hir interpreter so you could load and use cleavir, and i guess load in whatever sicl systems you're interested in
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2017-06-08T03:05:17Z beach: Great!
2017-06-08T03:05:42Z beach: When it runs inside SBCL, it then uses the SBCL memory allocator, compiler, and garbage collector.
2017-06-08T03:06:32Z vtomole: beach: Would you mind telling me how you run it since I am interested in contributing once i have enough experience?
2017-06-08T03:06:42Z vtomole: Bike: Ok i'll do that now
2017-06-08T03:07:01Z beach: vtomole: I haven't seen any particular use for such a thing, but if there is general interest, I might work on a more streamlined way of doing that.
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2017-06-08T03:08:10Z beach: vtomole: Right now, I get "encouragements" to continue my work on the Concrete Syntax Tree (CST) library, so that we can get source tracking in Cleavir, and so that I can use Cleavir in Second Climacs for incremental compilation.
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2017-06-08T03:08:53Z drmeister: Is there a way to convert a bit-vector to an integer?
2017-06-08T03:09:54Z drmeister: I need to figure out what endedness a Common Lisp implementation is using
2017-06-08T03:10:05Z beach: Speaking of which, my nephew turned down my offer of getting paid to help me with some of my projects.  I should go looking for someone else. :(
2017-06-08T03:11:12Z vtomole: beach: How many hrs a week are you expecting? Full time?
2017-06-08T03:11:25Z Bike: i guess you'd want to (quick)load cleavir-generate-ast, cleavir-ast-to-hir, and cleavir-hir-interpreter, then load Cleavir/Environment/Examples/sbcl.lisp, then you can do (cleavir-hir-interpreter:interpret-hir (cleavir-sbcl-environment::compile-cleavir (lambda () ...code...)))
2017-06-08T03:11:34Z Bike: a process that could, perhaps, be simplified
2017-06-08T03:11:38Z beach: vtomole: No, I can't afford that.
2017-06-08T03:12:04Z beach: Bike: Yeah, something like that.  I have been using the HIR compiler myself.
2017-06-08T03:12:16Z beach: But either way would work.
2017-06-08T03:12:37Z beach: There is in fact a function REPL somewhere that gets a very primitive REPL up and running.
2017-06-08T03:12:55Z beach: But it is really fragile.  It doesn't handle errors and such.
2017-06-08T03:12:59Z Bike: i mean hey, put that in a loop and there you go practically!
2017-06-08T03:13:04Z drmeister: Bit vectors are represented as bytes - is #*1 0x80 or 0x01
2017-06-08T03:13:10Z beach: Bike: Indeed.
2017-06-08T03:13:12Z Bike: drmeister: also, no way i'm aware of
2017-06-08T03:13:34Z Bike: i mean, nothing using underlying representations
2017-06-08T03:13:35Z pjb: drmeister: depends on your processor instructions to index bits.
2017-06-08T03:13:43Z pjb: drmeister: usually, it will be 0x01
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2017-06-08T03:14:21Z vtomole: beach where is that REPL located in the source?
2017-06-08T03:14:25Z drmeister: I think in ECL it's the other way around.
2017-06-08T03:14:57Z beach: Backends/Extrinsic-HIR-compiler/repl.lisp
2017-06-08T03:15:00Z vtomole: slime
2017-06-08T03:15:13Z vtomole: oops
2017-06-08T03:15:36Z beach: There is also one in Compiler/Extrinsic-environment/repl.lisp
2017-06-08T03:15:47Z beach: I think the latter one is the one I mean.
2017-06-08T03:15:53Z Bike: does that load the whole extrinsic system that crashed everything when i tried it...
2017-06-08T03:16:14Z beach: vtomole: The way you find things like that, is you do `git grep "defun repl "' at the top level.
2017-06-08T03:16:51Z beach: vtomole: That's what I had to do.  I don't remember things like that, so I have to do the same kind of digging that anyone else has to do.
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2017-06-08T03:17:28Z beach: Bike: I wouldn't think so.
2017-06-08T03:17:52Z Bike: oh ok.
2017-06-08T03:18:20Z beach: Bike: But I haven't tried it for a while.  Things have changed since.
2017-06-08T03:23:18Z vtomole: Bike:  (ql:quickload :cleavir-hir-interpreter) gives me a compile-file-error
2017-06-08T03:24:28Z Bike: what file? what error? i know asdf hides that stuff
2017-06-08T03:25:26Z vtomole: http://paste.lisp.org/display/348315
2017-06-08T03:26:23Z Bike: wait... oh hell, i didn't push that change yet
2017-06-08T03:26:46Z vtomole: I can wait :)
2017-06-08T03:27:13Z Bike: it'll be a while unless i do something exotic, it's in the middle of a bunch of big commits i haven't tested yet
2017-06-08T03:27:51Z vtomole: OK
2017-06-08T03:27:55Z Bike: it's https://github.com/Bike/SICL/commit/fac0823e54318b1af0a4769fe1d10d5d5801369f, most of the actual changes of are wiping those instructions
2017-06-08T03:28:08Z Bike: if you really want to get it i guess you could fetch the branch and cherry-pick
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2017-06-08T03:29:36Z Bike: i have lower standards than beach, so i try not to commit things to his repo unless i'm especially sure about them
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2017-06-08T03:31:34Z vtomole: I'll just clone your project. Seems easier than trying to dig through all of that.
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2017-06-08T03:34:03Z Bike: i guess that's fine, it's not like the formula i gave you calls the probably busted optimization phases
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2017-06-08T03:38:13Z vtomole: Something like this? (cleavir-sbcl-environment::compile-cleavir (lambda () (+ 2 3)))
2017-06-08T03:40:36Z Bike: yeah, that'll get you hir, then interpret-hir will run it
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2017-06-08T03:43:38Z vtomole: There is no applicable method for the generic function   #<STANDARD-GENERIC-FUNCTION CLEAVIR-AST:LAMBDA-LIST
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2017-06-08T03:45:48Z Bike: when called with what
2017-06-08T03:45:55Z Bike: oh, it needs to be '(lambda ...)
2017-06-08T03:46:10Z vtomole: For sure! haha
2017-06-08T03:48:35Z vtomole: Bike:  It evaluated my expression. So is Cleavir independent of SICL then? Is it it's own implementation?
2017-06-08T03:49:03Z beach: minion: Please tell vtomole about Cleavir.
2017-06-08T03:49:04Z minion: vtomole: Cleavir: A project to create an implementation-independent compilation framework for Common Lisp. Currently Cleavir is part of SICL, but that might change in the future
2017-06-08T03:49:53Z Bike: cleavir's a compiler, with basically no runtime, or definitions of standard functions and macros
2017-06-08T03:51:02Z beach: vtomole: Cleavir is meant to be used by any Common Lisp implementation who wishes to create a new compiler.  SICL is one such implementation.  Clasp is another.  And jackdaniel has plans to create a compiler for ECL using Cleavir.
2017-06-08T03:51:37Z beach: vtomole: These people do not necessarily want the SICL implementation of things like the reader, FORMAT, LOOP, CLOS, etc.
2017-06-08T03:51:44Z vtomole: ah.
2017-06-08T03:51:52Z beach: vtomole: That's why I extracted the compiler framework to a separate module.
2017-06-08T03:55:12Z vtomole: Cleavir has an implementation of LOOP. I just ran:(loop for x in '(a b c d e)       do (print x) ) on it
2017-06-08T03:55:27Z vtomole: How is that different from the SICL implementation of that macro?
2017-06-08T03:56:46Z beach: You need to ask Bike which LOOP you are getting since I am not exactly sure what his setup is.
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2017-06-08T03:57:04Z Bike: if you only loaded the cleavir systems, you're using sbcl's loop
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2017-06-08T04:00:16Z vtomole: Bike: Oh. I guess it's starting to make sense to me. So Cleavir compiles my code to an HIR, but how does the HIR intepreter work? Does it just call sbcl functions?
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2017-06-08T04:00:59Z beach: vtomole: LOOP is a macro.
2017-06-08T04:01:10Z beach: Long before it is compiled to HIR, it has been expanded.
2017-06-08T04:01:27Z beach: The expansion depends on the compile-time environment in use.
2017-06-08T04:01:37Z Bike: for each hir instruction it builds up a bit of common lisp code, which is put into a function, and then compiled using the implementation compiler (here sbcl)
2017-06-08T04:02:37Z vtomole: Bike: Allright
2017-06-08T04:03:03Z vtomole: beach: Sorry when i said functions,  i was implicitly lumping in macros.
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2017-06-08T04:03:43Z Bike: er, and when the hir instruction is a global function lookup instruction, it will look it up in sbcl's environment, so it'll call the functions ins bcl
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2017-06-08T04:04:19Z beach: OK, that's different from the REPL I have tested in the past.
2017-06-08T04:05:03Z beach: That one uses SICL first-class global environments so that it looks up global functions in such an environment.
2017-06-08T04:05:30Z vtomole: Bike So it goes: lisp->hir->lisp?
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2017-06-08T04:06:25Z Bike: vtomole: yes. of course in a more serious implementation hir will end up as machine code or whatnot
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2017-06-08T04:07:22Z Bike: beach: yeah, this is cheaper.
2017-06-08T04:09:13Z vtomole: Bike: How can i view the HIR that's been compiled?
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2017-06-08T04:12:08Z Bike: (cleavir-ir-graphviz:draw-flowchart hir pathname) will put a dot file in pathname, which you can view with graphviz
2017-06-08T04:13:58Z Bike: gotta sleep, will check logs tomorrow
2017-06-08T04:14:16Z vtomole: Thanks Bike
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2017-06-08T05:11:14Z flip214: who would like corrections to the ABCL 1.5.0rc0 manual? please pm me the email address.
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2017-06-08T05:25:03Z akkad: flip214: see #abcl
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2017-06-08T05:28:44Z flip214: akkad: ack, thank oyu
2017-06-08T05:28:46Z flip214: *you
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2017-06-08T08:56:50Z jackdaniel: where should I file cffi issues? on github 'issues' tab seems to be disabled
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2017-06-08T08:57:41Z dim: tempted to add a &key on-error-resume-next to a low-level api of mine
2017-06-08T08:57:53Z dim: it stinks refactoring, and I don't want to handle that right now
2017-06-08T08:58:01Z dim: error management is really hard
2017-06-08T08:58:06Z dim: on-error-resume-next, votes? ;-)
2017-06-08T08:58:44Z dim: jackdaniel: https://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/ mentions a mailing-list
2017-06-08T08:59:00Z dim: oh and http://bugs.launchpad.net/cffi for bug tracking
2017-06-08T08:59:12Z jackdaniel: ah, thanks
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2017-06-08T09:11:03Z dim: ok actually refactoring wins
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2017-06-08T09:46:34Z John[Lisbeth]: how does one do concurrency with lambdas?
2017-06-08T09:46:50Z John[Lisbeth]: or concurrency with immutable datastructures
2017-06-08T09:48:08Z shka: John[Lisbeth]: add lambdas: nothing out of ordinary here
2017-06-08T09:48:35Z John[Lisbeth]: so do sbcl lambdas already make use of concurrency?
2017-06-08T09:48:57Z shka: add immutable datastructures: return results and reduce
2017-06-08T09:49:33Z shka: John[Lisbeth]: lambda is not that complex, it is just a function in some enviorement
2017-06-08T09:49:41Z shka: which is not different from any other function in fact
2017-06-08T09:49:49Z shka: you can call it
2017-06-08T09:49:58Z shka: you can call it on different thread…
2017-06-08T09:49:59Z shka: voila
2017-06-08T09:50:12Z shka: here is your conccurency with lambdas
2017-06-08T09:50:48Z phoe: lambdas and concurrency are orthogonal concepts
2017-06-08T09:51:03Z shka: right
2017-06-08T09:51:25Z shka: that's a good starting point i guess
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2017-06-08T09:51:48Z John[Lisbeth]: when you call it on a differnet thread does it have sandboxed memory or do they share memory?
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2017-06-08T09:52:37Z shka: John[Lisbeth]: everything is shared, that's where immutable datastructures come in
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2017-06-08T09:55:20Z John[Lisbeth]: what function to you use to call it on a different thread?
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2017-06-08T09:58:20Z shka: https://common-lisp.net/project/bordeaux-threads/
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2017-06-08T09:58:25Z shka: John[Lisbeth]: use this
2017-06-08T09:59:09Z shka: and if you want something higher level, use this: https://lparallel.org/
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2017-06-08T10:00:25Z knobo: Is there any common lisp library that gives something like emacs defcustom?
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2017-06-08T10:03:26Z splittist: knobo: wouldn't that be too intimately linked to the application's interface to abstract into a library? (Although I guess that depends on what you mean by "like"...)
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2017-06-08T10:04:23Z dim: clhs remove-if-not
2017-06-08T10:04:23Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rm_rm.htm
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2017-06-08T10:04:59Z dim: (unless (remove-if-not #'index-primary (table-index-list table)) ...)
2017-06-08T10:05:10Z dim: is it me or is it still strange to read that kind of code?
2017-06-08T10:05:59Z lieven: filter might be a better name
2017-06-08T10:06:09Z phoe: we've been discussing this over 9000 times now
2017-06-08T10:06:15Z lieven: indeed
2017-06-08T10:06:34Z phoe: remove-if-not is not the best name, but it's the one we are stuck with in idiomatic standard Common Lisp
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2017-06-08T10:07:31Z lieven: and the odds of a new version of the standard coming out to remove the obsolescent feature aren't great either :)
2017-06-08T10:07:38Z knobo: I don't know. Maybe I'd use envy.
2017-06-08T10:08:28Z easye: I still think that a lot could be done with the CDR process to codify Contemporary Common Lisp usage.
2017-06-08T10:08:50Z easye: Esp.  to coordinate compatibility between the active open source implementations.
2017-06-08T10:10:03Z phoe: ^
2017-06-08T10:10:22Z dim: phoe: it's just that I can't seemt to get used to it, I don't want to start the debate again, just check if that's common...
2017-06-08T10:10:48Z phoe: dim: AFAIK it is common. but I eventually got used to it.
2017-06-08T10:11:55Z dim: I'm at the stage where I can remember the name of it
2017-06-08T10:12:02Z dim: but then when I read the code I'm like WTF
2017-06-08T10:12:12Z dim: anyways
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2017-06-08T10:58:52Z John[Lisbeth]: how does one simulate mutable state with lambdas?
2017-06-08T11:00:31Z Xach: John[Lisbeth]: change behavior based on arguments given
2017-06-08T11:01:19Z Xach: mutate closed-over variables
2017-06-08T11:01:23Z Xach: It's not a simulation
2017-06-08T11:02:35Z John[Lisbeth]: are you saying to recurse over a lambda that has an if/then clause?
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2017-06-08T11:08:53Z dim: a closure is a lambda with internal state
2017-06-08T11:08:56Z dim: you can mutate that
2017-06-08T11:11:00Z _death: dim: in your example remove-if-not is not the right operator to use anyway
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2017-06-08T11:14:43Z dim: yeah?
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2017-06-08T11:16:59Z _death: it'd be better written as (when (notany ...) ...)
2017-06-08T11:17:34Z Xach:  
2017-06-08T11:18:02Z Xach: John[Lisbeth]: or a CASE, or a COND, etc.
2017-06-08T11:19:02Z jackdaniel: easye: I agree
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2017-06-08T11:38:04Z dim: _death: I think that's what was unpleasant to me in reading the code, thanks for good advice
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2017-06-08T11:49:30Z mrottenkolber: Should GET-INTERNAL-REAL-TIME return a monotonic time?
2017-06-08T11:50:06Z phoe: clhs GET-INTERNAL-REAL-TIME
2017-06-08T11:50:06Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_get_in.htm
2017-06-08T11:50:13Z phoe: afaik it does not have to.
2017-06-08T11:50:28Z phoe: _death had a monotonic clock implementation based on FFI
2017-06-08T11:53:23Z fe[nl]ix: mrottenkolber: it doesn't and probably won't
2017-06-08T11:53:59Z fe[nl]ix: everybody tends to use gettimeofday() for that
2017-06-08T11:54:18Z _death: I use clock_gettime
2017-06-08T11:54:33Z mrottenkolber: fe[nl]ix: yeah, but is that a bug? I mean it somewhat depends on how you interpret the standard
2017-06-08T11:54:49Z mrottenkolber: “The difference between the values of two calls to this function is the amount of elapsed real time (i.e., clock time)”
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2017-06-08T11:56:31Z mrottenkolber: hard to tell what’s meant by “elapsed real time (i.e., clock time)”, since its not in the glossary or otherwise specified
2017-06-08T11:57:25Z _death: mrottenkolber: likely what is meant by "real time" is wall-clock time.. i.e. the time as the system presents it to the user, which may be changed by the user, or NTP, or whatever
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2017-06-08T11:57:52Z mrottenkolber: _death: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wall-clock_time
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2017-06-08T11:59:22Z mrottenkolber: common sense tells me that they must have implied monotonic time as the distinction from get-universal-time makes no sense, and virtually all use cases seem to be about measuring elapsed time (i.e. in a benchmark)
2017-06-08T11:59:41Z fe[nl]ix: mrottenkolber: iolib has a wrapper for clock_gettime()
2017-06-08T11:59:52Z mrottenkolber: the status quo is that most implementations use system time and we probably have lots of buggy code
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2017-06-08T12:00:23Z _death: yes
2017-06-08T12:00:47Z mrottenkolber: fe[nl]ix: the issue is less about getting a monotonic time for me, I want to change implementations to make g-i-r-t useful (by making it monotonic)
2017-06-08T12:01:11Z mrottenkolber: i.e. obsoleting _death’s monotonic-time
2017-06-08T12:01:52Z mrottenkolber: I thought only CCL was in error, but seems I need a CDR and joint implementors effort ;-)
2017-06-08T12:01:53Z _death: hey it's not obsoleting, but incorporating it into an implementation :D
2017-06-08T12:02:38Z mrottenkolber: my question to this channel would be if I am making sense
2017-06-08T12:03:12Z _death: I don't know if the status quo is in violation of the standard, but I think the latter allows for a monotonic clock so why not
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2017-06-08T12:05:40Z _death: if it's not in violation of the standard, then code using it won't be portable though
2017-06-08T12:07:00Z mrottenkolber: Ergo a CDR / edit to the standard (looking at phoe)
2017-06-08T12:07:20Z _death: that's not how it works.. you first need to convince implementors
2017-06-08T12:08:43Z mrottenkolber: That’s why I am probing here, i.e. I convinced CCL already, and I would argue that a monotoic clock is a basic feature that you expect in a language implementation. Do you think I could convince other implementors?
2017-06-08T12:09:05Z jackdaniel: mrottenkolber: check out query
2017-06-08T12:12:27Z _death: there is also the problem of the interface defined in CL
2017-06-08T12:13:05Z _death: where internal-time-units-per-second is a constant.. we've been through this a few days ago
2017-06-08T12:13:22Z mrottenkolber: Initially, I would probably argue that the standard supports my claim but this is really tricky. I find the notion of a negative “elapsed real time (i.e., clock time)” non-sensical. But the terminology is less well defined than I would like, as we have seen with our differing definitions of wall-time.
2017-06-08T12:13:26Z mrottenkolber: _death: how so?
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2017-06-08T12:13:49Z mrottenkolber: oh yeah
2017-06-08T12:15:36Z mrottenkolber: I still don’t think that’s an issue. I.e. in CCL its a constant that differs on platorms (32/64 bit), but its not directly tied to the resolution of the OS interface we are using
2017-06-08T12:16:03Z _death: on Windows it may change every boot in theory..
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2017-06-08T12:16:47Z mrottenkolber: _death: no, the resolution of the OS clock may change, not CL’s i-t-u-p-s
2017-06-08T12:16:54Z _death: I suppose you could map it into a fixed frequency.. blah
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2017-06-08T12:17:53Z _death: mrottenkolber: no, I am talking about QueryPerformanceFrequency
2017-06-08T12:17:56Z mrottenkolber: The way I see it, CL’s i-t-u-p-s is mostly relevant in the way that an internal time unit value fits in a fixnum
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2017-06-08T12:18:44Z _death: it is relevant when you want to know the unit of measurement :)
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2017-06-08T12:19:58Z knobo: Dynamic space usage is:   503,805,584 bytes.  How can I find out what's eating up my memory?
2017-06-08T12:20:42Z flip214: knobo: try (room)
2017-06-08T12:20:56Z flip214: that'll tell you usage per type
2017-06-08T12:21:15Z knobo: the line I pasted is from (room)
2017-06-08T12:21:34Z knobo: 316,440,064 bytes for 9,858,276 closure objects
2017-06-08T12:22:16Z flip214: so, quite a few closures stored somehow
2017-06-08T12:23:13Z _death: knobo: you could use sb-vm::map-allocated-objects to find more
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2017-06-08T12:25:58Z _death: hmm, there are more convenient interfaces.. like print-allocated-objects
2017-06-08T12:28:13Z _death: which seems broken on 64-bit :)
2017-06-08T12:29:06Z _death: but changing the (unsigned-byte 32) declaration to (unsigned-byte 64) unbreaks it
2017-06-08T12:30:00Z knobo: _death: I'll try it.
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2017-06-08T13:41:23Z knobo: If my memory leak is closure objects, how do I debug that futher?
2017-06-08T13:42:31Z knobo: And could someone make sample code that would show how closure objects can accumulate like that?
2017-06-08T13:42:46Z Bike: meaning you accumulate closures and they don't get deleted?
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2017-06-08T13:43:25Z knobo: yes
2017-06-08T13:44:01Z jackdaniel: you may use metering and narrow it looking at the bytes consed per functions
2017-06-08T13:44:05Z jackdaniel: s/functions/function/
2017-06-08T13:44:19Z knobo: as I have about 300 mb of closures.
2017-06-08T13:44:40Z jackdaniel: note, that not all implementations have bytes consed implemented there (most have it though)
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2017-06-08T13:45:21Z knobo: with the sb-sprof package, then?
2017-06-08T13:45:34Z jackdaniel: knobo: I've meant metering (it's on quicklisp)
2017-06-08T13:45:58Z jackdaniel: here is some documentation: http://quickdocs.org/metering/
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2017-06-08T13:47:28Z beach: knobo: (defparameter *closures* '()) (loop for i from 0 to 1000000 do (let ((x i)) (push (lambda () x) *closures*))) would be one such way.
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2017-06-08T13:48:29Z phoe: ^
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2017-06-08T13:48:52Z phoe: generally you are preventing objects from being GCed which means that they are accessible from your program somewhere
2017-06-08T13:49:11Z phoe: so you need to track where they are accumulating.
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2017-06-08T13:53:34Z knobo: jackdaniel: thanx.
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2017-06-08T13:53:45Z dlowe: I have long wished for some way to a tool to assist in this tracking.
2017-06-08T13:53:56Z dlowe: er, some tool
2017-06-08T13:53:57Z knobo: beach: that's what I thought. But I was looking for a more non-obvious way though.
2017-06-08T13:57:54Z Bike: it's kind of hard to come up with an example that is both simple and obfuscated
2017-06-08T13:58:10Z phoe: Bike: unless you are writing perl
2017-06-08T13:58:17Z Bike: just look at where there are closures in your program. flet, labels, lambda
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2017-06-08T14:13:22Z theseb: Quote question....I'm trying to implement a for loop with recursion as a teaching exercise....I'm passing in the "program" with a quote but not working out....Please see https://philfour.com/static/wow.png .  I want it to display "works" every loop.
2017-06-08T14:13:43Z phoe: theseb: racket might be better to ask in #scheme
2017-06-08T14:13:48Z theseb: (Uses Racket but basically subset of common lisp)
2017-06-08T14:13:59Z phoe: or #racket
2017-06-08T14:14:35Z phoe: theseb: I see what you are doing there
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2017-06-08T14:15:33Z phoe: where do you actually execute PROG?
2017-06-08T14:15:48Z phoe: you pass the list (display "works") and you return it - but you never execute it
2017-06-08T14:16:09Z phoe: you might have more luck with (lambda () (display "works")) and then calling it by means of (prog)
2017-06-08T14:16:12Z antoszka: theseb: you'd need to EVAL the code passed by 'prog' or create a macro.
2017-06-08T14:16:22Z phoe: or use EVAL as antoszka said
2017-06-08T14:16:47Z phoe: or use a macro like all CL iteration constructs do.
2017-06-08T14:16:51Z antoszka: yeah
2017-06-08T14:17:04Z pjb: So of course, you can use macros to create the thunk:
2017-06-08T14:17:21Z pjb: (defmacro repeat (n &body body) (repeat* n (lambda () ,@body)))
2017-06-08T14:17:29Z antoszka: yep
2017-06-08T14:17:43Z theseb: phoe: the "prog" line executes no?
2017-06-08T14:17:46Z pjb: (defun repeat* (n thunk) (if (< 0 n) (progn (funcall thunk) (repeat* (- n 1) thunk))))
2017-06-08T14:17:50Z phoe: theseb: no
2017-06-08T14:18:13Z antoszka: theseb: no, prog just „collects” forms, like { foo(); bar(); baz(); } in C-tyle syntax
2017-06-08T14:18:15Z theseb: phoe: (eval prog)
2017-06-08T14:18:15Z theseb: ?
2017-06-08T14:18:18Z phoe: (let ((prog '(display "works"))) prog) ;=> (DISPLAY "works")
2017-06-08T14:18:21Z phoe: oh, eval would do it, yes
2017-06-08T14:18:22Z antoszka: theseb: prog is the equivalent of {}
2017-06-08T14:18:27Z theseb: YEAH!
2017-06-08T14:18:30Z phoe: antoszka: what is {}?
2017-06-08T14:18:35Z antoszka: …
2017-06-08T14:18:40Z phoe: oh, I see
2017-06-08T14:18:49Z phoe: antoszka: and he does not mean the operator prog
2017-06-08T14:18:53Z phoe: he has a variable called prog in thre
2017-06-08T14:18:55Z phoe: there
2017-06-08T14:18:58Z antoszka: ah, okay
2017-06-08T14:19:01Z phoe: and it's prog, not progn
2017-06-08T14:19:31Z antoszka: well, CL has prog, too
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2017-06-08T14:20:10Z phoe: yes, but prog is really weird to me
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2017-06-08T14:20:13Z antoszka: theseb: so your PROG would just evaluate to a value, you could have just as well put 42 in your code in that place ;)
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2017-06-08T14:20:31Z phoe: it's basically let + tagbody + block nil
2017-06-08T14:21:03Z scymtym: knobo: http://paste.lisp.org/display/348337
2017-06-08T14:21:17Z antoszka: theseb: in other words, it'd do nothing much
2017-06-08T14:21:18Z shka: hm
2017-06-08T14:21:23Z shka: what exactly is prog?
2017-06-08T14:21:29Z shka: i never ever seen it
2017-06-08T14:21:32Z antoszka: clhs prog
2017-06-08T14:21:32Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_prog_.htm
2017-06-08T14:21:40Z antoszka: shka: ↑
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2017-06-08T14:22:54Z shka: (let (()) (tagbody nil?
2017-06-08T14:22:58Z theseb: antoszka: i sometimes get confused between eval's quote's, etc.
2017-06-08T14:23:08Z phoe: shka: let + block nil + tagbody
2017-06-08T14:23:19Z theseb: antoszka: scopes...etc.  lots to hold in the brain
2017-06-08T14:24:08Z shka: ok
2017-06-08T14:24:12Z shka: that's cute
2017-06-08T14:24:30Z shka: no idea how it is usefull, looks like relic from old times
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2017-06-08T14:24:46Z antoszka: probably
2017-06-08T14:25:12Z phoe: back when bytes were expensive
2017-06-08T14:26:11Z antoszka: theseb: yeah, it's actually mostly just symbols referring to values, unless you start playing with code generation, when you need to wrap your brain more around what gets evaluated and what not.
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2017-06-08T14:46:42Z knobo: thanx
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2017-06-08T16:00:07Z ebrasca: Someone understand colleen irc bot?
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2017-06-08T16:02:28Z Bike: ::help
2017-06-08T16:02:29Z Colleen: See 'help about' for general information. Try 'help X' to search for or retrieve information about a command.
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2017-06-08T16:03:22Z presiden: ::help about
2017-06-08T16:03:23Z Colleen: I'm an installation of the Maiden 3.0.0 chat framework. The core is running 27 consumers, with 129 commands registered. I have been running for approximately 2 days, 2 hours, 13 minutes, 42 seconds.
2017-06-08T16:04:08Z ebrasca: I am making my own bot. I have find what I miss.
2017-06-08T16:04:42Z ebrasca: "irc.freenode.org" -> (server :freenode)
2017-06-08T16:05:23Z pjb: ebrasca: check: botihn: I'm an IRC bot forwarding HackerNews news to #hn; under AGPL3 license, my sources are available at <https://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/tree/master/small-cl-pgms/botihn/>.
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2017-06-08T17:11:12Z learning: i'm trying to do: (defmethod to-string ((object boolean)) (if object "true" "false"))  but I get Error: Class named BOOLEAN not found.
2017-06-08T17:11:21Z learning: is there a way to do what I'm trying to do
2017-06-08T17:11:40Z dim: what are you trying to do?
2017-06-08T17:11:41Z Bike: boolean is not a class, just a type.
2017-06-08T17:11:56Z learning: see i thought a class was a type
2017-06-08T17:11:59Z Bike: nope.
2017-06-08T17:12:01Z Bike: But on the bright side, boolean only has two elements, so you can use eql types.
2017-06-08T17:12:05Z Bike: eql specializers, i mean.
2017-06-08T17:12:21Z learning: so i need to make my own class for boolean?
2017-06-08T17:12:21Z Bike: (defmethod to-string ((object (eql t))) "true") (defmethod to-string ((object (eql nil))) "false")
2017-06-08T17:12:23Z Bike: voila.
2017-06-08T17:12:26Z Bike: no. you cannot do that.
2017-06-08T17:13:32Z learning: so i can define my own test for a generic method?
2017-06-08T17:13:42Z learning: how does that (eql t) part work
2017-06-08T17:15:16Z Bike: it's not a test. when you define a method you can specialize either on classes, or on eql specializers.
2017-06-08T17:15:32Z Bike: the first method is only selected if object is eql to T (i.e., is T)
2017-06-08T17:15:35Z learning: oh its a type specifier
2017-06-08T17:15:54Z learning: oh ok
2017-06-08T17:16:12Z learning: so it doesnt work with types, unless the type specifier is an eql specializer?
2017-06-08T17:17:48Z Bike: eql specializers are technically distinct from eql types, even though they're pretty close to the same
2017-06-08T17:17:53Z Bike: but yeah, you've basically got it
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2017-06-08T17:21:32Z pjb: Well cyou can do that, but it's not equivalent to the first thing.  The methods you want are (defgeneric to-string (o) (:method ((_nil null)) "false") (:method ((o t)) "true")) (to-string 423) #| --> "true" |#  (to-string nil) #| --> "false" |#
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2017-06-08T17:25:12Z Bike: pjb: boolean is (member t nil)
2017-06-08T17:26:25Z pjb: but people want generalized boolean in general.
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2017-06-08T17:26:55Z pjb: for (member t nil):   (defgeneric to-string (o) (:method ((_nil null)) "false") (:method ((o (eql t))) "true"))
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2017-06-08T17:28:21Z Bike: usually you're pretty literal about questions, how odd
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2017-06-08T17:58:38Z learning: lisp is such a neat language
2017-06-08T17:59:13Z learning: i like how i get rewarded for learning little things, because they piece together with other things later
2017-06-08T17:59:28Z learning: like i couldn't get my macro to work
2017-06-08T17:59:51Z learning: so i ended up doing a (cons 'progn *) on the front and bam it worked
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2017-06-08T18:23:00Z _death: classes are types.. but not all types are classes
2017-06-08T18:23:04Z jackdaniel: `(progn ,*)
2017-06-08T18:23:16Z jackdaniel: tfu, `(progn ,@*)
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2017-06-08T18:23:37Z jackdaniel: _death: right, this is a nice summary of that: http://sellout.github.io/2012/03/03/common-lisp-type-hierarchy/
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2017-06-08T18:25:22Z _death: jackdaniel: I don't think it's accurate
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2017-06-08T18:26:48Z jackdaniel: what do you mean?
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2017-06-08T18:27:11Z _death: I mean that it has inaccuracies.. I think I discussed some of them in the past
2017-06-08T18:28:00Z jackdaniel: I had to miss it, do you remember them?
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2017-06-08T18:30:57Z _death: for example, CONDITION is not a class (but there was contention about this here).. another example is that, say, BIT, is a subtype of FIXNUM.. and it doesn't distinguish between different kinds of types, like representational types vs. declaration types etc.
2017-06-08T18:32:12Z jackdaniel: mhm, thanks
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2017-06-08T18:33:01Z jackdaniel: yet it is a very handy diagram and illustrates distinction between types and classes
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2017-06-08T18:34:07Z _death: sure, as long as you don't take it as gospel :)
2017-06-08T18:34:43Z jackdaniel: fwiw the spec isn't perfect either :p
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2017-06-08T18:35:36Z _death: neither is gospel hehe
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2017-06-08T18:37:00Z _death: the CL package doesn't even contain a symbol beginning with J
2017-06-08T18:37:18Z Bike: mmajor weakness in the spec
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2017-06-08T18:38:48Z _death: would be interesting to see the letter frequency discrepancies from ordinary english
2017-06-08T18:41:53Z _death: ETA-ROINSLPCDMUHGFBYV*KWXQZ1=J/2&+<>
2017-06-08T18:43:36Z loke___: Hmm.. J more rare than = ?
2017-06-08T18:44:00Z _death: ETAROINSLPCDMUHGFBYVKWXQZJ vs. ETAOINSHRDLCUMWFGYPBVKJXQZ (classic ordering)
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2017-06-08T18:47:52Z _death: loke: they have the same frequency
2017-06-08T18:48:06Z _death: (list (length (apropos-list "=" "CL")) (length (apropos-list "J" "CL")))
2017-06-08T18:48:07Z knobo: scymtym: sbcl crashes when I run your paste.
2017-06-08T18:48:46Z _death: loke: (although that apropos-list check may miss multiple occurrences of a letter in a symbol)
2017-06-08T18:49:54Z _death: loke: but it's right in that case.. (#\= . 12) (#\J . 12)
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2017-06-08T18:51:30Z loke___: Yeah. I noticed
2017-06-08T18:51:54Z loke___: I didn't realise there were that many symbols with =. What's even more surprising is the lack of J's...
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2017-06-08T18:52:42Z _death: interesting that - is so high on the list, given that CL tends to use full words
2017-06-08T18:54:24Z _death: 549/978 of the symbols use it at least once
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2017-06-08T19:04:57Z flip214: don't forget about the long version of "=", EQUAL  ;)
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2017-06-08T19:05:49Z sherab: i am confused about how to instal latest sbcl on debian jessie
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2017-06-08T19:07:01Z _death: flip214: also interesting is how P moved up the ladder due to predicates..
2017-06-08T19:07:55Z benny: sherab: I would recommend roswell to manage sbcl
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2017-06-08T19:08:16Z sherab: benny hmm that means little to me
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2017-06-08T19:08:31Z benny: google roswell sbcl
2017-06-08T19:08:38Z sherab: benny: cheers
2017-06-08T19:09:10Z sherab: bend3r, even if I already installed the sbcl from the apt ?
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2017-06-08T19:09:35Z sherab: benny: even if I installed the sbcl from the apt repository?
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2017-06-08T19:15:18Z Bike: well, debian isn't going to be "latest"
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2017-06-08T19:32:50Z knobo: so, djula and parser-combinators are the memory eater sinners.
2017-06-08T19:33:25Z knobo: The compile-string function in djula.
2017-06-08T19:34:36Z knobo: and the execute-chocie in parser-combinators
2017-06-08T19:34:53Z Bike: where do they keep closures around?
2017-06-08T19:36:42Z knobo: I'm not sure yet.
2017-06-08T19:37:47Z shka_: most likely in another closures :D
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2017-06-08T19:44:12Z knobo: back. just needed to ditch gnome-terminal....
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2017-06-08T19:54:46Z knobo: (let ((closures (mapcar 'make-a-lot-of-cosures some-list))) (return (lambda (stream) (dolist (f cosures) (funcall f...))...
2017-06-08T19:54:49Z knobo: Something like that..
2017-06-08T19:56:08Z knobo: the closures are stored in the template object
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2017-06-08T19:57:38Z knobo: ;; If :djula-prod is not enabled, recompile templates when they change on disk
2017-06-08T19:57:54Z knobo: I guess it's recompiling every time even it's not changed on disk.
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2017-06-08T20:36:28Z deba5e12: join #plan9
2017-06-08T20:36:34Z deba5e12: whoops.
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2017-06-08T21:48:39Z fade: good choice, though :)
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