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2017-06-07T00:13:44Z borei1: hi all
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2017-06-07T00:14:02Z borei1: im a bit stuck with the following code - https://pastebin.com/DB4kqrnM
2017-06-07T00:14:27Z borei1: (defparameter *dr* (make-instance 'cqm-data-renderer :render-library "test")) - works fine
2017-06-07T00:14:30Z borei1: when i do
2017-06-07T00:14:38Z borei1: (main-loop *dr*)
2017-06-07T00:14:43Z borei1: im getting
2017-06-07T00:14:56Z borei1: Argument to :DEFAULT must be a string. [Condition of type LOAD-FOREIGN-LIBRARY-ERROR]
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2017-06-07T00:17:01Z Bike: define foreign library is a macro, it does not evaluate the slot-value form
2017-06-07T00:17:07Z pjb: malice: so store your methods in different files than your classes, and load them after all the class files are loaded.
2017-06-07T00:17:10Z Bike: and it should certainly not be in the defmethod
2017-06-07T00:18:09Z malice: pjb: Yes, that's what I have done.
2017-06-07T00:20:58Z borei1: hi Bike, "and it should certainly not be in the defmethod" - why ?
2017-06-07T00:22:06Z Bike: define-foreign-library is to tell the lisp implementation about where to find a library. you don't want to do that in a main loop. you don't really want to do it operationally at all
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2017-06-07T00:24:40Z borei1: ic your point
2017-06-07T00:25:04Z Bike: it's like a linker command
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2017-06-07T01:44:12Z John[Lisbeth]: has the common spec been ported to the lambda calculus
2017-06-07T01:45:43Z Bike: that doesn't make any sense for several reasons
2017-06-07T01:46:01Z Bike: it's a specification. there is no base implementation scheme implied.
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2017-06-07T01:52:22Z pjb: John[Lisbeth]: Nothing prevents you to implement it. It's funny and instructive.
2017-06-07T01:52:45Z pjb: John[Lisbeth]: I'd still advise to read first LiSP ( Lisp in Small Pieces   http://pagesperso-systeme.lip6.fr/Christian.Queinnec/WWW/LiSP.html  http://pagesperso-systeme.lip6.fr/Christian.Queinnec/Books/LiSP-2ndEdition-2006Dec11.tgz ).
2017-06-07T01:53:16Z pjb: John[Lisbeth]: and yes, actually implementing scheme on lambda-calculus and then Common Lisp on scheme will probably be easier and faster.
2017-06-07T01:53:50Z pjb: John[Lisbeth]: notice that part of that implementation will involve implementing the simulation of a physical computer and part of the universe.  Eg. to implement I/O.
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2017-06-07T03:16:51Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-06-07T06:44:11Z John[Lisbeth]: it seems like scheme is not implemented in the lambda calculus
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2017-06-07T06:52:03Z z0d: John[Lisbeth]: of course not. Lambda calculus doesn't have e.g. I/O
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2017-06-07T08:53:24Z tapioco: hi
2017-06-07T08:54:04Z tapioco: please is there a way to avoid compilation for iolib groveller?
2017-06-07T08:54:30Z tapioco: everytime I load a project with iolib it recompiles (ecl)
2017-06-07T08:55:18Z fe[nl]ix: what ASDF version are you using ?
2017-06-07T08:55:52Z fe[nl]ix: it's probably too old
2017-06-07T08:56:08Z tapioco: ok
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2017-06-07T08:56:16Z tapioco: (asdf:version)
2017-06-07T08:56:19Z tapioco: ?
2017-06-07T08:56:50Z fe[nl]ix: maybe (asdf:asdf-version)
2017-06-07T08:57:58Z tapioco: 3.2.1
2017-06-07T08:58:52Z tapioco: and latest release 3.2.1 on April 3rd 2017.
2017-06-07T08:59:04Z tapioco: it seems the latest
2017-06-07T08:59:31Z fe[nl]ix: I'm not sure what's happening, but this looks like an ASDF problem
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2017-06-07T09:00:15Z tapioco: could be a missing arch/cpu info in the groveller?
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2017-06-07T09:07:23Z tapioco: I cleared the files in the .cache/common-lisp directory
2017-06-07T09:10:15Z tapioco: recompiling all
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2017-06-07T10:02:55Z tapioco: unusable, it always recompiles itself...
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2017-06-07T10:16:25Z tapioco: fe[nl]ix: only on mips it works ok
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2017-06-07T10:55:38Z tapioco: fe[nl]ix: is iolib/sysclass::pollfd-tclass the definition of pollfd structure?
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2017-06-07T11:04:52Z fe[nl]ix: tapioco: I'm surprised it works at all on mips
2017-06-07T11:05:15Z tapioco: yes
2017-06-07T11:05:21Z tapioco: me too, but it works
2017-06-07T11:05:32Z tapioco: compilation occurs only if I change the code
2017-06-07T11:05:48Z fe[nl]ix: see https://github.com/sionescu/iolib/blob/master/src/multiplex/backend-poll.lisp for an example
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2017-06-07T11:06:48Z Lcn: hi
2017-06-07T11:06:49Z tapioco: I didn't found pollfd
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2017-06-07T11:17:37Z impaktor: Hi! I wonder if CL has something as powerful as generated functions in Julia: https://docs.julialang.org/en/latest/manual/metaprogramming/#Generated-functions-1
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2017-06-07T11:18:29Z dim: compiler macros?
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2017-06-07T11:29:47Z axion: Xach: fixing that right now
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2017-06-07T11:33:26Z Xach has such difficulty sometimes mapping nicks to github names
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2017-06-07T11:34:31Z xificurC: (let ((x (intern (something-returning-a-string)))) (setf ??? 100))
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2017-06-07T11:35:09Z xificurC: in other words, as a question - how can I set the value of a symbol I need to generate at runtime?
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2017-06-07T11:36:00Z dim: ,clhs symbol-value
2017-06-07T11:36:25Z dim: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_symb_5.htm
2017-06-07T11:36:27Z xificurC: experimenting in the repl maybe I have a different issue
2017-06-07T11:37:54Z impaktor: dim: not sure it's the same thing. Can a macro see the run time types?
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2017-06-07T11:38:26Z xificurC: (let ((x (intern "aaa"))) (setf aaa 111) (list (symbol-value x) aaa))
2017-06-07T11:38:30Z dim: a compiler macro can, IIUC, impaktor
2017-06-07T11:38:36Z xificurC: this throws an unbound-variable error for |aaa|
2017-06-07T11:38:52Z dim: impaktor: https://www.pvk.ca/Blog/2014/08/16/how-to-define-new-intrinsics-in-sbcl/
2017-06-07T11:39:05Z xificurC: so (intern "aaa") is not the same as the symbol 'aaa ?
2017-06-07T11:39:17Z Bike: xificurC: (setf (symbol-value x) ...)
2017-06-07T11:39:40Z xificurC: Bike: I know why that will work but don't understand why is there a difference
2017-06-07T11:39:47Z Bike: well there's a few things
2017-06-07T11:40:06Z Bike: (intern "aaa") gets you a symbol named "aaa", but with the default reader configuration, aaa in source will be a symbol named "AAA"
2017-06-07T11:40:14Z Bike: which are distinct
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2017-06-07T11:41:02Z Bike: second, when you write (setf aaa 111) in source you're just, i mean, even if you had (intern "AAA") there's no point.
2017-06-07T11:41:17Z Bike: intern just makes the symbol exist, it doesn't make a binding or anything.
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2017-06-07T11:42:11Z xificurC: Bike: I understand an interned symbol from (intern "aaa") is still unbound, but don't understand why (setf aaa 0) doesn't use the same thing
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2017-06-07T11:42:32Z xificurC: in other words why is this false - (eq (intern "aaa") 'aaa)
2017-06-07T11:42:35Z dim: xificurC: reader time versus run time I think
2017-06-07T11:42:37Z Bike: because the reader upcases
2017-06-07T11:42:45Z Bike: (read-from-string "aaa") => AAA
2017-06-07T11:42:52Z Bike: clhs readtable-case
2017-06-07T11:42:52Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rdtabl.htm
2017-06-07T11:42:54Z axion: The default configuration of the reader is to upcase symbols, but not strings.
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2017-06-07T11:43:41Z xificurC: axion: ahhh, ok
2017-06-07T11:44:03Z xificurC: (eq (intern "AAA") 'aaa) is indeed t
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2017-06-07T11:45:05Z _death: with the default readtable-case, (eq (intern "aaa") '|aaa|) => t
2017-06-07T11:45:31Z Bike: eh?
2017-06-07T11:45:36Z Bike: oh, yes.
2017-06-07T11:45:39Z xificurC: yes
2017-06-07T11:45:41Z xificurC: not for 'aaa though
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2017-06-07T11:46:10Z xificurC: that's phenomenal
2017-06-07T11:46:57Z xificurC: makes sense when you understand the internals. Makes no sense when trying to explain to a newcomer (like my colleague) :)
2017-06-07T11:47:44Z xificurC: one more question for bonus points
2017-06-07T11:47:50Z _death: (actually it should work with any readtable-case..)
2017-06-07T11:48:16Z xificurC: if I have a macro called def that is a wrapper around defparameter
2017-06-07T11:48:42Z xificurC: is there a way to call that macro with a runtime-generated symbol?
2017-06-07T11:48:54Z xificurC: (def (intern "foo") 100)
2017-06-07T11:48:55Z _death: eval
2017-06-07T11:49:45Z xificurC: I know eval will work. So there's no way around it
2017-06-07T11:49:47Z Bike: i mean, avoid that though
2017-06-07T11:50:38Z xificurC: well the only way to avoid that is to *not* use package symbols for a dynamic amount of values
2017-06-07T11:51:31Z xificurC: e.g. for input (list 0 2 10) generate something like (defvar x-0 0) (defvar x-1 2) (defvar x-2 10), for any input list
2017-06-07T11:52:38Z xificurC: I understand this is not recommended
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2017-06-07T11:52:57Z xificurC: thank you for the help :)
2017-06-07T11:53:13Z Bike: i don't think i understand what you're doing, why does the list have to be a runtime thing?
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2017-06-07T11:55:08Z _death: you can use an array (or perhaps a persistent structure) instead
2017-06-07T11:56:59Z _death: an alist is idiomatic for shadowing
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2017-06-07T12:02:15Z xificurC: sorry was afk
2017-06-07T12:03:55Z xificurC: bike: well the use case is (a bit simplified) - there's a runtime parameter called SCALE that is a positive integer and my colleague wants to create SCALE many variables called foo-1, foo-2, ..., foo-SCALE
2017-06-07T12:04:15Z Bike: why
2017-06-07T12:04:27Z xificurC: I tried to explain he should just use a hash table
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2017-06-07T12:05:02Z Bike: at runtime there are not "variables" exactly, lexical variables have ceased to be and dynamic variables are just symbols with their value slots in use
2017-06-07T12:08:10Z xificurC: basically he wants to write foo-1 instead of something like (car (gethash "foo" ht))
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2017-06-07T12:11:39Z dlowe: (destructuring-bind (foo-1 foo-2 foo-3 foo-4...) (gethash "foo" ht) ...) works
2017-06-07T12:12:09Z dlowe: if he really wanted to, he could write a macro that builds the foo list, but he'd have to specify the number of elements
2017-06-07T12:12:30Z dlowe: easier to just (elt (gethash "foo" ht) x)
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2017-06-07T12:22:07Z _death: (foo 1)
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2017-06-07T12:23:19Z dlowe: true. (flet ((foo (x) (elt (gethash "foo" ht) x))) ...) will solve all the problems
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2017-06-07T12:42:16Z mrottenkolber: What was the emacs command for going back to where you jumped from using ;-. again?
2017-06-07T12:42:21Z mrottenkolber: eh, M-.
2017-06-07T12:44:00Z Xach: mrottenkolber: M-,
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2017-06-07T12:45:42Z mrottenkolber: Xach: duh, thanks!
2017-06-07T12:45:49Z Xach: No problem
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2017-06-07T12:48:46Z xificurC: dlowe: yeah, I know you're right but this is a lost battle for me :) Once it gets too complex for him I can say the always-so-pleasing "i told you so"
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2017-06-07T13:49:47Z arademaker: Hi all, shebang in SBCL (http://sbcl.org/manual/index.html#Shebang-Scripts) is not working for me on MacOS, any idea?
2017-06-07T13:50:07Z Xach: arademaker: what happens when you try?
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2017-06-07T13:50:25Z Bike: If I want to define my own slot definition class, do I (a) have to have classes for both direct and effective slots, and (b) subclass standard-foo-slot-definition or just foo-slot-definition?
2017-06-07T13:50:38Z arademaker: I got "/Users/arademaker/Temp/hello.lisp: line 2: write-line: command not found"
2017-06-07T13:50:57Z dlowe: arademaker: how are you executing it?
2017-06-07T13:50:59Z Xach: arademaker: can you paste hello.lisp to paste.lisp.org?
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2017-06-07T13:53:46Z arademaker: Hi @Xach, http://paste.lisp.org/display/348285
2017-06-07T13:55:40Z Xach: arademaker: the file is in ~/Temp, not ~/ ???
2017-06-07T13:55:58Z Xach: Or is your home directory /Users/arademaker/Temp/?
2017-06-07T13:56:30Z arademaker: No, this is a paste mistake. I edited the address. I tried in the ~/Temp too.
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2017-06-07T13:58:36Z arademaker: See the annotation http://paste.lisp.org/display/348285#1
2017-06-07T13:59:13Z Xach: arademaker: Sorry, I don't know. It works all right for me.
2017-06-07T13:59:34Z dlowe: sbcl --version?
2017-06-07T13:59:47Z dlowe: if you have an old one, it may not have --script
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2017-06-07T14:00:29Z dlowe: it seems to think that it's a shell script.
2017-06-07T14:00:39Z arademaker: Version `SBCL 1.3.17`
2017-06-07T14:01:04Z dlowe: I think this is an environment problem
2017-06-07T14:01:13Z dlowe: does sbcl --script hello.lisp work?
2017-06-07T14:01:40Z arademaker: Yes, `sbcl --script hello.lisp` works!
2017-06-07T14:02:11Z dlowe: for some reason, it's thinking that .lisp is a shell script and ignoring #!
2017-06-07T14:02:32Z dlowe: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/9988125/shebang-pointing-to-script-also-having-shebang-is-effectively-ignored
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2017-06-07T14:03:13Z dlowe: is /usr/local/bin/sbcl a binary?
2017-06-07T14:03:27Z madrik: Greetings.
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2017-06-07T14:06:16Z oleo: what is your SBCL_HOME ?
2017-06-07T14:06:21Z oleo: try using the right one
2017-06-07T14:06:37Z oleo: otherwise it might find the wrong .core file
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2017-06-07T14:21:28Z Bike: the answer to my earlier question seems to be that you should subclass the standard- whatever, because otherwise i get an error about no method for compute-slot-location or something.
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2017-06-07T15:00:26Z beach: Bike: You may have to supply a method on SLOT-DEFINITION-LOCATION if your new slot class is not a subclass of standard-effective-slot-definition.
2017-06-07T15:00:26Z Colleen: beach: Bike said 1 hour, 15 minutes, 19 seconds ago: your metamodular page for "Initialization of Slot Definition Metaobjects" has a repeated paragraph near the bottom
2017-06-07T15:00:59Z beach: Indeed, thanks.
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2017-06-07T15:02:33Z beach: Bike: And I think the answers to your first questions are that you don't have to create both a new direct slot definition class and a new effective slot definition class, as long as you supply the correct method compute-effective-slot-definition.
2017-06-07T15:04:10Z beach: Bike: I think you need to do all this stuff in a subclass of the metaclass, like a subclass of standard-class.
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2017-06-07T15:05:04Z beach: Bike: Because you need to supply a method on effective-slot-definition-class, and you are allowed to do that if your method is specialized to your own classes.
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2017-06-07T15:09:49Z beach: Bike: Fixed the page!  Thanks again!
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2017-06-07T15:14:39Z Bike: beach: i was defining another initarg for slots, so i think i need both direct and effective
2017-06-07T15:14:44Z Bike: and i did do a metaclass for that reason
2017-06-07T15:14:45Z Bike: it seems to work
2017-06-07T15:15:22Z Bike: though i have compute-effective-slot-definition side effecting, which seems wrong somehow
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2017-06-07T15:15:51Z Bike: another initarg/slot, rather
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2017-06-07T15:33:38Z beach: Bike: I suppose that depends on what kind of side effect.  But, yeah, it looks like you got it.
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2017-06-07T15:35:52Z Bike: well, basically i need the effective slot definition to have this slot in it, but the actual object is made by the primary method on compute-. so i have to have an :around method and set the slot myself
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2017-06-07T15:39:58Z beach: Sounds entirely acceptable.
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2017-06-07T15:40:45Z beach: Sometimes, if I don't want the slot to have a slot writer, I only define a :reader, and then I use REINITIALIZE-INSTANCE instead in order to fill in the slot.
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2017-06-07T15:41:40Z beach: Using :ACCESSOR gives the impression that client code has the right to change the value, which I often want to avoid.
2017-06-07T15:41:48Z Bike: can't you use slot value?
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2017-06-07T15:42:04Z beach: I never use SLOT-VALUE.
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2017-06-07T15:42:12Z beach: It bypasses all defined protocols.
2017-06-07T15:42:32Z beach: I consider :INITARGs and accessors to be part of the protocol(s), but not slots.
2017-06-07T15:42:51Z beach: I know it's a bit extreme, but hey.
2017-06-07T15:43:53Z Bike: well, i can understand that, yeah.
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2017-06-07T15:46:28Z SAL9000: beach: why not use a separate :writer which is not exported?
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2017-06-07T15:46:50Z beach: SAL9000: Yes, that's another possibility.
2017-06-07T15:47:03Z shka: what's extreme about that?
2017-06-07T15:47:36Z beach: I find REINITIALIZE-INSTANCE quite workable, though.  It needs no other functions to work, and it uses only the defined protocol.
2017-06-07T15:47:47Z shka: i thought that it is consesus around the whole OO programming community
2017-06-07T15:48:13Z shka: from C++ to common lisp
2017-06-07T15:48:16Z beach: shka: SLOT-VALUE is kind of acceptable to use internally.
2017-06-07T15:48:39Z SAL9000: plenty of C++ programmers (myself included) use member variables directly from a class's own methods
2017-06-07T15:48:42Z beach: shka: Just like a C++ method can access the data members directly.
2017-06-07T15:48:49Z shka: the only time i use slot-value is when i define my one reader or writer
2017-06-07T15:48:58Z shka: *my own
2017-06-07T15:49:58Z beach: shka: Why would you do that "manually"?
2017-06-07T15:50:21Z shka: because i wanted just one mutex in this place
2017-06-07T15:50:40Z beach: Can't you use :AROUND methods for that?
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2017-06-07T15:51:21Z shka: i could, but what about exception safety?
2017-06-07T15:51:42Z shka: well ok
2017-06-07T15:51:47Z shka: that would work
2017-06-07T15:51:59Z beach: A secondary reason I don't use SLOT-VALUE, even internally in a module, is that, since I have this nasty habit if naming my slots with the `%' prefix, it would look quite ugly to then use such a slot name in SLOT-VALUE.
2017-06-07T15:52:02Z shka: honestly, i didn't think about that
2017-06-07T15:52:11Z beach: shka: Now you know. :)
2017-06-07T15:52:27Z shka: well, yeah
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2017-06-07T15:53:15Z shka: oh, btw
2017-06-07T15:53:38Z shka: anybody happens to know utility that can help me format docstrings?
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2017-06-07T15:54:12Z beach: "format" in what way?
2017-06-07T15:54:54Z shka: basicly i want something that accepts key arguments with lists and strings along with symbol to document, processes arguments to produce docstring and set it as docstring of symbol
2017-06-07T15:55:21Z shka: i'm doing it to ensure that all doctstrings use the same template
2017-06-07T15:55:44Z beach: You can use any utility, including FORMAT to produce docstrings.
2017-06-07T15:55:50Z shka: well, i know
2017-06-07T15:56:02Z shka: in fact that's what i'm doing right now
2017-06-07T15:56:24Z shka: i started to implement small library for docstring formatters
2017-06-07T15:56:48Z shka: but after a moment, i realised that there is potential to do more
2017-06-07T15:57:25Z shka: for instance, since many docstrings contain examples section, i could even automaticly test if those examples are correct
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2017-06-07T15:57:57Z shka: and this left me wondering if somebody already did this
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2017-06-07T15:59:34Z shka: ok, i will get this as a "NO"
2017-06-07T15:59:44Z beach: Not me, that's for sure. :)
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2017-06-07T16:00:10Z shka: well, at the very least it is usefull for me and does not require crazy amount of work
2017-06-07T16:00:25Z shka: ok, i have to go
2017-06-07T16:00:32Z shka: have a nice evening!
2017-06-07T16:00:36Z beach: Take care, shka.
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2017-06-07T16:00:40Z SAL9000: \o
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2017-06-07T16:17:50Z dim: Fatal error in "buildapp" : Fault during read of memory address #x7F80E7A27668
2017-06-07T16:17:52Z dim: https://hub.docker.com/r/dimitri/pgloader/builds/bb3cwsfkffbkzpwvsoghkjf/
2017-06-07T16:18:05Z dim: I guess there's not so much we can do from buildapp or otherwise?
2017-06-07T16:18:41Z dim: well it looks like a CCL problem
2017-06-07T16:18:54Z dim: I don't know what to do about it, sadly
2017-06-07T16:19:23Z Xach: eek
2017-06-07T16:19:28Z Xach: i don't think i've seen that before
2017-06-07T16:19:59Z dim: my DockerHub integration is all broken as a result ;(
2017-06-07T16:20:09Z dim: https://hub.docker.com/r/dimitri/pgloader/builds/
2017-06-07T16:20:13Z dim: it's been quite some time, too
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2017-06-07T16:23:31Z akkad: hey dim. great tool btw.
2017-06-07T16:23:56Z dim: thanks!
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2017-06-07T16:25:46Z akkad: still learning from it, as if it crashed in Roswell in 1947.
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2017-06-07T16:38:10Z madrik: How is the optional RESULT form in a DOLIST used well?
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2017-06-07T16:40:03Z madrik: I have used it as an alternative to a (loop with foo = ...)
2017-06-07T16:40:11Z madrik: But is there a more fitting use?
2017-06-07T16:41:34Z Xach: madrik: If I have a variable that is accumulating stuff from action in the dolist body, I often use the result to return it.
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2017-06-07T16:44:09Z madrik: Xach: Do you have a LET around the DOLIST?
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2017-06-07T16:45:09Z Xach: madrik: yes, or something with the same effect
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2017-06-07T16:56:01Z madrik`: Xach: Thanks.  And the same idiom for a DOTIMES also?
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2017-06-07T16:56:47Z Xach: madrik`: yes
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2017-06-07T17:05:16Z arademaker: Hi all, it works with `#!/usr/bin/env /usr/local/bin/sbcl --script` nice! thank you @dlowe
2017-06-07T17:06:43Z arademaker: Indeed, /usr/local/bin/sbcl is a script, not a binary. My sbcl was installed with homebrew!
2017-06-07T17:07:39Z Xach: aha!!
2017-06-07T17:11:57Z arademaker: thank you @dlowe and @Xach for helping.
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2017-06-07T17:12:34Z Xach: No problem
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2017-06-07T17:16:30Z foom: arademaker: On most OSes, you can't have #! with more than a binary and a single argument, either.
2017-06-07T17:16:54Z foom: (if it works on your OS, great, but it usually doesn't)
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2017-06-07T17:39:26Z arademaker: hum.. good to know. Thank you @foom
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2017-06-07T17:48:45Z andrzejk_: hi people :)
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2017-06-07T17:57:55Z beach: Hello andrzejk_.
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2017-06-07T17:58:25Z andrzejk_: beach i heard that lisp programmers has that "something" what make them smarter
2017-06-07T17:58:58Z beach: You shouldn't listen to everything you hear.
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2017-06-07T18:06:07Z S1ohy: andrzejk_: Perhaps it's that smart people are attracted to Lisp.
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2017-06-07T18:12:37Z andrzejk_: what about Haskell it is more popular
2017-06-07T18:13:11Z andrzejk_: I read many things that better to learn it as Lisp is old
2017-06-07T18:13:19Z White_Flame: is haskell more popular?
2017-06-07T18:13:38Z White_Flame: if one assumes "lisp" as a family and not just "common lisp", I'd say lisp is
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2017-06-07T18:16:49Z andrzejk_: White_Flame I am asking because I am more C++ guy but I had started to learn templates and I just think how these all people which implement some C++ cool functional features take ideas from Lisp and Haskell
2017-06-07T18:17:21Z ARM9: haskell is beginning to show its age as well
2017-06-07T18:17:43Z White_Flame: andrzejk_: yep, also see Greenspun's 10th rule
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2017-06-07T18:18:25Z White_Flame: C and C++ keep their language design intentionally limited to not allow hidden runtime computation cost
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2017-06-07T18:18:54Z White_Flame: so they're always going to be more limited in what the base language can do than other languages, and any importation of ideas is going to be strangely bolted on like those templates, or as libraries
2017-06-07T18:19:30Z White_Flame: that really doesn't have much to do with smart people, but more the difference between very flexible languages/runtimes vs what C++ offers
2017-06-07T18:20:13Z White_Flame: although you can throw in some sapir-whorf and claim that the language you use influences your variety of thinking
2017-06-07T18:20:46Z Bike: sapir whorf is dumb though.
2017-06-07T18:21:06Z White_Flame: that's why I said "claim"
2017-06-07T18:21:25Z Bike: right.
2017-06-07T18:21:32Z White_Flame: but practically speaking, most programmers I've seen think within the box of their toolkits, instead of building better tools
2017-06-07T18:21:59Z andrzejk_: White_Flame yeah thats true
2017-06-07T18:22:21Z andrzejk_: White_Flame but this not matter of programming language but our goverment and social structure
2017-06-07T18:22:44Z White_Flame: most people work with what they're given
2017-06-07T18:22:44Z andrzejk_: people are scared to make revolution
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2017-06-07T18:22:54Z White_Flame: regardless of government or social structure
2017-06-07T18:23:00Z White_Flame: design takes effort
2017-06-07T18:23:07Z White_Flame: and challenging prior-held thought
2017-06-07T18:23:11Z andrzejk_: yeah I know that
2017-06-07T18:23:32Z White_Flame: so that's the fundamental inertia, I don't think it's trained
2017-06-07T18:24:10Z andrzejk_: the government obeys obedience
2017-06-07T18:24:39Z andrzejk_: and hate when people want to change matrix
2017-06-07T18:25:08Z andrzejk_: so people feel it in all surfaces
2017-06-07T18:25:21Z andrzejk_: wherever they are
2017-06-07T18:25:34Z andrzejk_: whatever they do
2017-06-07T18:26:33Z White_Flame: as I said, I think there's enough human behavior history that it's broader than that
2017-06-07T18:26:43Z White_Flame: and political discussion is pretty off-topic here
2017-06-07T18:27:01Z andrzejk_: White_Flame it is social problem not political
2017-06-07T18:28:15Z White_Flame: it's not even a social problem
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2017-06-07T19:04:48Z dlowe: I think dissatisfied people are more likely to explore the fringes of the norm, and people can be dissatisfied for many reasons.
2017-06-07T19:05:15Z dlowe: I don't know about smarter, but being dissatisfied will definitely take you more places.
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2017-06-07T19:09:59Z zshclyg: Could you make ASDF work with literal programming (or transpiling), and are there any successful precedents?
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2017-06-07T19:14:22Z Bike: "literate programming"?
2017-06-07T19:14:41Z Bike: and transpiling is just compiling so sure. maybe you can do that with parenscript.
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2017-06-07T19:20:16Z zshclyg: Bike: Yes Literate! :) I would then need to hook into ASDF's compile method?
2017-06-07T19:21:46Z Bike: it has a compile-op you can subclass and stuff, i think. i don't know the details.
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2017-06-07T19:25:50Z zshclyg: Bike: I'll look into that! I would also need to hook into slime-compile-defun to support incremental development.
2017-06-07T19:26:56Z Bike: for literate programming?
2017-06-07T19:28:15Z zshclyg: Bike: Yes
2017-06-07T19:29:42Z Bike: ...right, it's not just comments, there's all that include stuff. been a while
2017-06-07T19:29:52Z mrottenkolber: Is there a way to READ without interning?
2017-06-07T19:31:13Z Bike: don't think so
2017-06-07T19:32:00Z _death: maybe there are reader implementations that can do soft-interning
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2017-06-07T19:55:59Z pjb: mrottenkolber: you could use com.informatimago.common-lisp.lisp-reader.reader
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2017-06-07T20:08:52Z drmeister: If I have an algorithm that recursively subdivides a long list into two pieces and then again - is it acceptable to split the list by setting the CDR of the middle CONS to NIL?
2017-06-07T20:09:01Z drmeister: I'm certain that it is - I don't use the list after the subdivision.
2017-06-07T20:09:23Z drmeister: This way I avoid copying the first half of the list with subseq.
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2017-06-07T20:10:38Z drmeister: Destructive manipulation of lists makes me a little nervous.
2017-06-07T20:12:15Z pjb: As long as your conses are "yours" (that you have created them yourself, and not from a literal list or some code that kept a reference to them to use them otherwise).
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2017-06-07T20:24:11Z shka_: drmeister: well, if you have to use list, that's fine. Usually i'm trying to use vector when i need destructive operations, though.
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2017-06-07T20:38:20Z pjb: vectors are more difficult to split in two. But you may do it virtually with indexes. (recursive function with start end parameters).
2017-06-07T20:39:31Z knusbaum: Or with displaced arrays.
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2017-06-07T22:27:48Z yegortimoshenko: hi, which package names are better: fully qualified with a domain (like com.gigamonkeys.json) or the usual ones?
2017-06-07T22:28:14Z |3b|: depends on your definition of "better"
2017-06-07T22:29:06Z |3b|: (and once you have a concrete definition, it is probably obvious)
2017-06-07T22:29:25Z yegortimoshenko: well, i really like fully qualified package names, but due to the fact that common lisp doesn't support local nicknames they are unwieldy
2017-06-07T22:29:57Z |3b|: yeah, that's one of the reasons there isn't an obvious 'better' :/
2017-06-07T22:30:35Z yegortimoshenko: most people use shorter package names, correct?
2017-06-07T22:30:51Z |3b| hasn't done a survey, but seems that way
2017-06-07T22:31:06Z yegortimoshenko: thank you!
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2017-06-07T22:31:35Z |3b|: and some of the ones who use long names add a short global nickname as well
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2017-06-07T22:34:09Z pjb: yegortimoshenko: depends on your purpose.
2017-06-07T22:34:46Z pjb: if you name a package in a library that you publish in quicklisp and that will be used in random user lisp images, you better name it with a unique name, ie. a fully qualified domain.
2017-06-07T22:35:18Z pjb: On the other hand, if you name a package in an application that you will never merge with another application in the same lisp image, then you can use simple short package names.
2017-06-07T22:37:51Z yegortimoshenko: pjb: thanks. i'd rather be consistent and choose the longer option. i'd like to note that it looks like most packages on quicklisp are not domain qualified: https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects/tree/master/projects
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2017-06-07T23:58:30Z pillton: yegortimoshenko: Rallying implementations to support package local nicknames would be a good thing to do.