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2017-06-04T00:03:17Z malice: Hi! I'm trying to figure out what I'm doing wrong. I am trying to use my own resolver in cl-ppcre.
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2017-06-04T00:04:08Z malice: When I am in repl, and I do (setf cl-ppcre:*property-resolver* #'my-resolver) and then try to do (cl-ppcre:all-matches-as-strings "my-regex" line), it works and returns the result that I want
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2017-06-04T00:04:32Z malice: Now when I put the same code in file, it does not work.
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2017-06-04T00:07:28Z malice: I tried putting it in eval-when but it doesnt work
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2017-06-04T00:18:18Z Bicyclidine: how do you do it in the file?
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2017-06-04T00:22:29Z malice: I have actually solved it
2017-06-04T00:22:44Z malice: turned out the problem was elsewhere. One-char error...
2017-06-04T00:23:10Z malice: Normal order works, no need for eval-when.
2017-06-04T00:23:36Z Bicyclidine: great
2017-06-04T00:23:46Z Bicyclidine: though using setf is probably not the way to do it
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2017-06-04T00:24:23Z malice: What would you recommend?
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2017-06-04T00:24:29Z malice: It's an external variable.
2017-06-04T00:25:22Z Bicyclidine: let binding
2017-06-04T00:25:31Z Bicyclidine: is your all-matches-as-strings in a function, or is this a script or something?
2017-06-04T00:25:35Z malice: I thought about it.
2017-06-04T00:25:42Z malice: It is in a function, I could use a let binding.
2017-06-04T00:26:04Z Bicyclidine: cos i mean, if someone else wants to set the resolver, and does so, and then calls your function, problems could occur
2017-06-04T00:26:26Z malice: Right. Fortunately this is a small and self-contained program
2017-06-04T00:26:38Z malice: but I will probably change it for the let binding.
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2017-06-04T02:07:02Z IamGoD_77: I have been trying to solve the Project Euler problem titled 'Even Fibonacci numbers' using common lisp. My (faulty) solution is at http://paste.lisp.org/+7GKZ . The question asks you to find the sum of all the even terms in the fibonacci sequence that are no greator then 4 million. If anyone could help me find the source of error in my code I would be very grateful. I am new to lisp so I apologize in
2017-06-04T02:07:08Z IamGoD_77: advance if I made a stupid mistake.
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2017-06-04T02:09:14Z Bicyclidine: In what sense is it faulty?
2017-06-04T02:09:37Z IamGoD_77: I am sorry I just found my mistake.
2017-06-04T02:09:49Z IamGoD_77: 4000000000 != 4 million
2017-06-04T02:09:55Z Bicyclidine: well, that's not four million for one
2017-06-04T02:09:55Z Bicyclidine: yeah
2017-06-04T02:09:57Z IamGoD_77: I am retarded
2017-06-04T02:10:12Z IamGoD_77: It works correctly now.
2017-06-04T02:10:30Z Bicyclidine: it's a simple mistake that doesn't impugn your intelligence, also please try to avoid that language.
2017-06-04T02:10:58Z IamGoD_77: Sorry
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2017-06-04T02:11:33Z IamGoD_77: I swear I looked at that for an hour wondering what could be wrong.
2017-06-04T02:12:30Z Bicyclidine: it happens.
2017-06-04T02:12:46Z IamGoD_77: Thanks anyways
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2017-06-04T02:12:51Z Bicyclidine: for an early lisp program this is pretty good, i must say. usually when ok well bye.
2017-06-04T02:13:00Z Bicyclidine: too bad it's not remotely what euler wants.
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2017-06-04T03:02:14Z sabrac: hello all
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2017-06-04T03:47:21Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-06-04T03:47:30Z beach: Hello sabrac.
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2017-06-04T06:46:21Z otwieracz: Is there some out-of-the-box „telnet server” for CL?
2017-06-04T06:47:00Z otwieracz: I am not in mood to implement all multi-threading things for little talk via netcat.
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2017-06-04T07:06:24Z beach: The Earley-based lambda-list parsing framework of the Concrete Syntax Tree (CST) library that I am working on is now able to parse ordinary lambda lists and generic-function lambda lists, or at least the unit tests for those cases all pass.
2017-06-04T07:06:31Z beach: Only the macro lambda list and the destructuring lambda list represent significant additional work, because they allow nested lambda lists, requiring recursive parsing.  The others are variations of what the framework is already able to do.
2017-06-04T07:06:32Z beach: Now, I am currently not using CSTs, but instead just ordinary lists.  I will change that once I have extensive tests for the ordinary lists.
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2017-06-04T08:53:09Z flip214: otwieracz: what do you need, exactly?
2017-06-04T08:53:53Z flip214: a simple accept/fork thread loop wouldn't be that hard?!
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2017-06-04T09:00:48Z kami: Good morning.
2017-06-04T09:00:55Z beach: Hello kami.
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2017-06-04T09:07:54Z beach: Wow, a lot of McCLIM activity.  This is very good!
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2017-06-04T09:33:43Z easye: minion: canonical mcclim?
2017-06-04T09:33:45Z minion: does torturing a poor bot with things beyond its comprehension please you?
2017-06-04T09:34:10Z easye TODO make minion more tolerant.
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2017-06-04T09:38:21Z beach: easye: You can ask me or jackdaniel if there is anything you would like to know.
2017-06-04T09:38:40Z easye: Just looking on how far ABCL gets with it now.  Will do, beach.
2017-06-04T09:39:43Z easye: beach: I should check out your housekeeping as 0.9.7 at https://github.com/robert-strandh/McCLIM as the place to patch where I need for ABCL, right?
2017-06-04T09:39:52Z beach: In case anyone would like to know: The activity I am talking about takes place in the "issues" of https://github.com/robert-strandh/McCLIM
2017-06-04T09:40:11Z easye nods. "Thanks for the ACK!"
2017-06-04T09:40:20Z beach: easye: I am afraid I don't know much about patches for ABCL.
2017-06-04T09:40:40Z beach: We are removing more and more implementation-specific code.
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2017-06-04T09:41:15Z easye: Theoretical, or that which might exist in the future, i.e. as the result of my implementation specific needs.  I think everything I need is in ABCL core.  Need to check...
2017-06-04T09:41:54Z beach: Instead, we try to use external libraries that already handle such code.  Like closure-mop, trivial-gray-streams, etc.
2017-06-04T09:42:07Z beach: er, closer-mop
2017-06-04T09:42:26Z easye: All that works well.
2017-06-04T09:42:50Z beach: It is possible that we are not yet using closer-mop.  There were some issues as I recall.
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2017-06-04T09:43:08Z easye: I should be able to help fix that.
2017-06-04T09:43:22Z beach: No, wait.  The issues might have been with Bordeaux-threads.
2017-06-04T09:43:28Z beach: GAH, can't remember now.
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2017-06-04T09:43:52Z beach: It is best to check with jackdaniel.
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2017-06-04T09:44:56Z easye: mcclim is at least declaring BORDEAUX-THREADS as an ASDF dependency.
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2017-06-04T09:47:38Z easye: Hmm.  It seems ABCL has an error loading quicklisp/software/opticl-20170403-git as one of McCLIM's dependencies.  *sigh*  I'll get back to you, beach after squashing the associated bugs my side (compiler problems).
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2017-06-04T09:50:28Z easye: beach:  After bypassing the opticl problem, I definitely run into problems at not having your MOP shim loadable.  The package "CLIM-MOP" can't be found.
2017-06-04T09:51:02Z easye: I'll see what it takes to get your implementation running via CLOSER-MOP again.  Back in a bit.
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2017-06-04T10:05:30Z jackdaniel: im on phone
2017-06-04T10:05:46Z jackdaniel: we want, but dont have c2mop yet
2017-06-04T10:06:00Z jackdaniel: bt is already default
2017-06-04T10:06:46Z jackdaniel: another library with impl specific needs is clx at shaarplispers
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2017-06-04T10:07:29Z jackdaniel: easye: ^ if you have questions lmk on query or #clim
2017-06-04T10:07:31Z jackdaniel: bbl
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2017-06-04T10:22:09Z easye: jackdaniel: ACK.  I have half a hack going with a putative fix-abcl.lisp <https://github.com/armedbear/McCLIM/commit/14845b1eaaec35d11c0bbae6894a863457fb5f27>, but need to get on with my Sunday.  Talk soon.
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2017-06-04T11:04:32Z pillton: Where do you submit CCL bugs? Trac or Github?
2017-06-04T11:06:45Z phoe: pillton: trac
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2017-06-04T11:06:50Z phoe: and also let rme know at #ccl
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2017-06-04T11:08:44Z pillton: phoe: Thanks.
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2017-06-04T12:06:57Z argoneus: hello
2017-06-04T12:07:05Z argoneus: um, could someone explain to me how `(func ,@list) works?
2017-06-04T12:07:16Z argoneus: I found a bunch of stuff online but I don't get it :(
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2017-06-04T12:07:55Z argoneus: I get that '(1 2 3) makes it pass (1 2 3) directly
2017-06-04T12:08:06Z argoneus: but not sure what ` does or why ,@ seems to expand the list in place
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2017-06-04T12:13:06Z TMA: argoneus: ` is called backquote. inside the form quoted by the backquote there can be forms unquoted by a , (comma) ,@ (comma at-sign) or ,. (comma dot)
2017-06-04T12:13:51Z TMA: argoneus: in absence of those unquoted forms the `form is equivalent to 'form
2017-06-04T12:14:40Z argoneus: what's the difference between the three commas?
2017-06-04T12:14:50Z argoneus: and unquoted meaning
2017-06-04T12:14:56Z argoneus: if I unquote '(1 2 3) it will give 1 2 3?
2017-06-04T12:15:04Z TMA: wait
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2017-06-04T12:15:14Z Bicyclidine: unquoting only makes sense in the context of backquote.
2017-06-04T12:15:19Z TMA: I do not type at the speed of thought
2017-06-04T12:16:40Z TMA: argoneus: otherwise, the the bacquoted form is taken as a template, into which there are inserted values depending on the particular unquote form present
2017-06-04T12:17:49Z argoneus: hmm
2017-06-04T12:17:57Z argoneus: so it's kinda like printf formatting tokens?
2017-06-04T12:18:12Z argoneus: basically ` lets me know that I can use those special templates inside it
2017-06-04T12:18:14Z TMA: argoneus: the simplest case is the comma unquoting: `(a ,b c) is equivalent to (list 'a b 'c) -- you take the comma-unquoted form and insert its value in place of that unquoted form
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2017-06-04T12:19:21Z TMA: argoneus: ,@ and ,. are similar in their effect.
2017-06-04T12:20:00Z TMA: argoneus: both splice their form's result in their place
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2017-06-04T12:20:26Z argoneus: hmm, I see
2017-06-04T12:20:40Z TMA: argoneus: so `(a ,@(list 'b 'c 'd) e) => (a b c d e)
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2017-06-04T12:20:53Z argoneus: so if I (let ((x '(1 2 3 4 5)) `(my-fun ,@x))
2017-06-04T12:20:56Z TMA: argoneus: but `(a ,(list 'b 'c 'd) e) => (a (b c d) e)
2017-06-04T12:20:59Z argoneus: it will call (my-fun 1 2 3 4 5)
2017-06-04T12:20:59Z argoneus: ?
2017-06-04T12:21:20Z argoneus: ah
2017-06-04T12:21:22Z argoneus: that makes sense
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2017-06-04T12:23:20Z TMA: argoneus: you can happily forget about ,. for now (the difference between ,.form and ,@form is that the result of the form might be destructively modified by ,. but not by ,@)
2017-06-04T12:23:40Z TMA: argoneus: no, it would not call it.
2017-06-04T12:23:57Z TMA: argoneus: it would return the list (my-fun 1 2 3 4 5)
2017-06-04T12:24:48Z argoneus: oh, huh..
2017-06-04T12:25:10Z TMA: argoneus: as would (let ((x '(1 2 3 4 5)) (list* 'my-fun x))
2017-06-04T12:25:23Z argoneus: that's weird
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2017-06-04T12:25:25Z argoneus: it calls it in my code
2017-06-04T12:25:33Z argoneus: or rather, it returns the return value of the function
2017-06-04T12:25:52Z TMA: argoneus: you are probably using it in a macro
2017-06-04T12:26:17Z argoneus: so I want to do
2017-06-04T12:26:25Z argoneus: (my-fun `(,@list))?
2017-06-04T12:26:30Z TMA: argoneus: the fact, that the function is called is due to the macro workings
2017-06-04T12:26:37Z argoneus: a macro, huh
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2017-06-04T12:27:30Z TMA: a macro is a function that operates on its unevaluated arguments that returns CODE, that should be evaluated instead
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2017-06-04T12:28:20Z TMA: argoneus: `(,@list) is equivalent to just list
2017-06-04T12:28:47Z argoneus: how can I get the expected behaviour then?
2017-06-04T12:28:53Z argoneus: (my-fun (unquote list))
2017-06-04T12:29:10Z TMA: argoneus: (apply #'my-fun list)
2017-06-04T12:29:20Z argoneus: o
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2017-06-04T12:29:59Z TMA: argoneus: unless you are constructing the call in a macro, in which case `(my-fun ,@list) is the way to go
2017-06-04T12:30:19Z argoneus: hm
2017-06-04T12:30:21Z argoneus: doesn't work
2017-06-04T12:30:29Z argoneus: I get "requires at least x arguments" error
2017-06-04T12:31:26Z beach: argoneus: Time to show some real code.
2017-06-04T12:31:28Z TMA: I cannot help you further, unless I see the code
2017-06-04T12:32:42Z argoneus: oh wait
2017-06-04T12:32:47Z argoneus: the function I'm calling is a defmethod
2017-06-04T12:32:56Z argoneus: that's not a macro though is it
2017-06-04T12:32:58Z beach: argoneus: DEFMETHOD is not a function.
2017-06-04T12:33:04Z beach: It is a macro.
2017-06-04T12:33:07Z argoneus: oh!
2017-06-04T12:33:07Z beach: clhs defmethod
2017-06-04T12:33:08Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defmet.htm
2017-06-04T12:33:11Z argoneus: that's why then
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2017-06-04T12:36:43Z argoneus: this is all quite confusing, wew
2017-06-04T12:38:06Z beach: What seems to be the problem?
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2017-06-04T12:40:13Z argoneus: the whole "it behaves different inside a macro"
2017-06-04T12:41:07Z beach: It doesn't.
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2017-06-04T12:43:13Z beach: argoneus: But, as TMA explained, a macro returns a form, which makes it different from a function in that respect.
2017-06-04T12:43:38Z argoneus: hmm
2017-06-04T12:44:34Z beach: argoneus: Consider (defmacro my-macro (list) (cons '+ list))
2017-06-04T12:44:57Z beach: argoneus: You can call this macro like this: (my-macro (1 2 3 4))
2017-06-04T12:45:47Z White_Flame: scrolling back to the original question, backquoted lists work sort of like templates, where comma elements are substituted with an expression
2017-06-04T12:45:58Z White_Flame: data templates
2017-06-04T12:46:26Z beach: argoneus: Evaluation then happens in two steps.  First the "macro FUNCTION" is called with the unevaluated list (1 2 3 4) as an argument.  The macro function returns the FORM (+ 1 2 3 4), which is then evaluated in place of the original macro call.
2017-06-04T12:47:10Z beach: argoneus: So you see how the macro body builds a form.
2017-06-04T12:47:22Z beach: argoneus: That's where backquote comes in very handy.
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2017-06-04T12:48:37Z beach: argoneus: I could have written (cons '+ list) as `(+ ,@list) which looks more like the form I intend to return.
2017-06-04T12:50:06Z beach: argoneus: But if you evaluate (let ((list '(1 2 3 4))) (cons '+ list)) or (let ((list '(1 2 3 4))) `(+ ,@list)) at the REPL, you just get the form itself, i.e., (+ 1 2 3 4).
2017-06-04T12:50:46Z beach: argoneus: The reason for that is that the REPL only evaluates in one single step.
2017-06-04T12:51:23Z argoneus: hmmmmm
2017-06-04T12:52:50Z beach: argoneus: Does that make sense to you?
2017-06-04T12:52:54Z argoneus: kiind of
2017-06-04T12:52:59Z argoneus: and defmethod works the same as defmacro?
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2017-06-04T12:53:25Z phoe: argoneus: not really
2017-06-04T12:53:27Z phoe: clhs defmethod
2017-06-04T12:53:27Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defmet.htm
2017-06-04T12:53:29Z phoe: clhs defmacro
2017-06-04T12:53:29Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defmac.htm
2017-06-04T12:53:35Z beach: No, DEFMACRO creates macros.  DEFMETHOD creates generic-function methods.
2017-06-04T12:53:38Z phoe: defmacro defines a macro; defmethod defines a method
2017-06-04T12:53:42Z beach: heh.
2017-06-04T12:53:58Z White_Flame: the call to DEFMETHOD itself is a macro invocation, which was the confusion
2017-06-04T12:54:19Z White_Flame: ie, in the lisp source code, there's (defmacro defmethod ...) not (defun defmethod ...)
2017-06-04T12:54:26Z White_Flame: (ideally)
2017-06-04T12:54:43Z beach: White_Flame: Certainly in SICL it looks like that. :)
2017-06-04T12:55:25Z White_Flame: but what you create by calling defmethod is a function callable just like defun creates
2017-06-04T12:55:35Z beach: argoneus: Are you trying to solve a specific problem, or are you just trying to understand how Common Lisp works?
2017-06-04T12:55:42Z argoneus: a little bit of both
2017-06-04T12:55:55Z argoneus: I was working on an assignment that is now done, but I don't like to have lingering confusion
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2017-06-04T12:56:24Z argoneus: I think I get the generic gist of it now
2017-06-04T12:56:33Z argoneus: general*
2017-06-04T12:56:38Z argoneus: thanks a lot!
2017-06-04T12:56:55Z White_Flame: DEFGENERIC? ;)
2017-06-04T12:57:01Z argoneus: ;;
2017-06-04T12:57:29Z beach: argoneus: Sure.  Don't hesitate to ask again if you have more questions.
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2017-06-04T13:11:06Z SAL9000: What is the state-of-the-art when it comes to readtable case? I'm implementing a Lua-to-Lisp transpiler and Lua is case-sensitive -- of course, I can use |escapes| but I'd like to avoid that if there's an idiomatic way to do so.
2017-06-04T13:12:45Z beach: clhs 23.1.2
2017-06-04T13:12:45Z specbot: Effect of Readtable Case on the Lisp Reader: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/23_ab.htm
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2017-06-04T13:14:58Z SAL9000: beach: I understand that bit...but how do I make changes to readtable case in a way that affects my entire ASDF system and reduces potential compatibility problems (including across system boundaries)?
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2017-06-04T13:15:54Z beach: SAL9000: If you do it so that it affects all your files in your software, you are going to have a host of problems.
2017-06-04T13:16:06Z SAL9000: Hmm.
2017-06-04T13:16:17Z beach: You would then have to write all your Common Lisp symbols in all upper case.
2017-06-04T13:16:50Z beach: So my advice is to use :PRESERVE only for those files that are to be read as Lua source.
2017-06-04T13:16:56Z Bicyclidine: not sure i exactly understand the problem. you're doing lua to lisp. won't you just get your symbol names from the parser of lua? and you use intern or whatever and don't use read at all.
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2017-06-04T13:17:20Z SAL9000: My "problem" is that I'm writing the transpiler in the first place to get better lua-lisp interoperability than I would get from an FFI
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2017-06-04T13:18:03Z SAL9000: so my "special" files aren't lua source, they're lisp source which talks directly to the translated lua
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2017-06-04T13:18:26Z SAL9000: so I guess I'd have a named-readtable + a modified copy of "CL" package for that purpose
2017-06-04T13:19:29Z SAL9000: the latter is needed to deal with Lua's tri-state booleans (nil, false, true) -- both of the former should register as "nil-but-distinct" to Lisp's conditionals in this context.
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2017-06-04T13:22:14Z SAL9000: beach: would it be safe to use :INVERT everywhere, though?
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2017-06-04T13:23:40Z beach: I would be surprised if that didn't create even more problems.
2017-06-04T13:24:24Z SAL9000: How so? If I'm not uppercasing any CL or library symbols anywhere, it should be OK, no?
2017-06-04T13:24:25Z beach: A Lua symbol such as `hello' would be converted to HELLO, but `Hello' would remain unchanged.
2017-06-04T13:25:48Z beach: But since I don't know enough details of what kind of interoperability you have in mind, it is hard for me to say.  Plus that I don't know Lua.
2017-06-04T13:25:58Z SAL9000: I'm aiming for three things:
2017-06-04T13:26:11Z SAL9000: 1) Each unique Lua symbol (case-sensitive) has a unique Lisp symbol corresponding to it
2017-06-04T13:26:46Z SAL9000: 2) Writing the name of a Lua symbol in Lisp code (in a "lisp+lua" context) should result in the same symbol as if it was written in Lua code
2017-06-04T13:27:01Z SAL9000: 3) Not breaking CL-CL interoperability with my hacks
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2017-06-04T13:28:48Z beach: :INVERT might work then.
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2017-06-04T13:29:29Z SAL9000: OK, so I just define a named-readtable and use it at the top of every "lisp+lua" source file?
2017-06-04T13:30:44Z beach: Maybe so.  Hard for me to say.  I am a very slow thinker, and what I come up with a priori often has to be changed when I start actually implementing things.
2017-06-04T13:31:03Z beach: Some other #lisp participants may be quicker.
2017-06-04T13:31:38Z SAL9000: That's OK. I'm mostly worried about compile-time vs run-time shenanigans, which I assume named-readtable takes care of already
2017-06-04T13:32:05Z beach: Can't you try it on some small examples?
2017-06-04T13:33:37Z SAL9000: I'm not sure what you mean by that. Small examples of Lua? Sure -- I mean compile-time vs run-time of the Lisp code. I'm not expecting to put the Lua-to-Lisp compiled stuff anywhere other than main memory.
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2017-06-04T13:45:18Z SAL9000: beach: this might be kinda silly, but is it possible to translate (at Lisp read time) any symbols like lua::foo into (gethash "foo" lua::|_env|), but only if lua::foo is not already defined in the current lexical environment?
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2017-06-04T13:52:41Z Bicyclidine: .that's not really possible, no
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2017-06-04T13:56:05Z Bicyclidine: since this is a lua to lisp compiler, you presumably have control over the lisp output, so instead of outputting a symbol, output a gethash call
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2017-06-04T13:56:52Z beach: Bicyclidine: But there was also the requirement that typing any Lua symbol in Lisp source code should refer to that symbol.
2017-06-04T13:57:13Z beach: So that seems to require rewriting the Common Lisp compiler as well.
2017-06-04T13:57:44Z Bicyclidine: yeah, not happening
2017-06-04T13:58:47Z SAL9000: right. makes sense.
2017-06-04T13:59:19Z SAL9000: and I'm already doing code-walking and name-to-gethash translation in the lisp output of the Lua compiler
2017-06-04T13:59:20Z beach: If it were just a transpiler, lots of stuff would work, but the requirement that Common Lisp code can refer to Lua code in a convenient way makes many of those tricks unavailable.
2017-06-04T14:00:21Z SAL9000: CL code referring to Lua code in a convenient way is less of a requirement and more of a goal -- I'm prepared to sacrifice convenience in the name of efficiency (or, in this case, having an implementation at all :) )
2017-06-04T14:00:50Z Bicyclidine: you could have a read macro, have #!foo read in as (gethash "foo" lua::|_env|)
2017-06-04T14:01:23Z Bicyclidine: but it sounds more like you want a whole... like... lisp to lisp-that-refers-to-lua translation
2017-06-04T14:01:56Z SAL9000: if I need to code-walk arbitrary Lisp code, that means I'm (probably) going too far with the convenience
2017-06-04T14:02:46Z SAL9000: now that I think about it, I shouldn't need to refer to Lua globals all that much outside of defining the built-ins, and that can be done with a DEFUN/LUA or whatever
2017-06-04T14:05:14Z pjb: Remember, you can use symbol-macros.
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2017-06-04T14:06:13Z pjb: A reader macro would be indicated if you wanted to be able to create lua symbols from lisp. Otherwise, you could generate define-symbol-macros to give access to lua things from CL.
2017-06-04T14:07:08Z pjb: Use #l as reader macro: #lua:foo ;-)
2017-06-04T14:07:33Z whoman2: i use emacs as reader macro T_T
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2017-06-04T14:51:02Z frgo: clhs fle
2017-06-04T14:51:02Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for fle.
2017-06-04T14:51:06Z frgo: clhs flet
2017-06-04T14:51:06Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_flet_.htm
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2017-06-04T15:22:26Z Synchro: hi
2017-06-04T15:23:18Z Synchro: is there any general common lisp library to interface with linux os?
2017-06-04T15:23:28Z Synchro: please...
2017-06-04T15:23:30Z Synchro: :)
2017-06-04T15:30:11Z whoman2: posix ? what kind of interface
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2017-06-04T15:39:05Z frgo: Synchro: http://www.cliki.net/cl-posix-generalities ?
2017-06-04T15:39:43Z whoman2: i might have read something yesterday about some CL facility to interface with linux system calls
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2017-06-04T15:40:24Z Synchro: yes like poll, ioctl and so on
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2017-06-04T15:43:39Z whoman2: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Closix ?
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2017-06-04T15:44:57Z frgo: whoman2: This a no-code repo.
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2017-06-04T15:46:54Z frgo: clhs check-type
2017-06-04T15:46:54Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_check_.htm
2017-06-04T15:49:32Z beach: Synchro: Since that kind of stuff is not part of the Common Lisp standard, each implementation has its own interface.
2017-06-04T15:49:56Z Synchro: beach: yes
2017-06-04T15:50:05Z Synchro: beach: ok
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2017-06-04T15:50:48Z beach: So for instance with SBCL you have this: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#sb_002dposix
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2017-06-04T15:52:17Z phoe: Synchro: there are cross-implementation portability libraries for this.
2017-06-04T15:52:27Z phoe: What exactly part of POSIX you want to interface with?
2017-06-04T15:53:07Z Synchro: phoe: I need ioctl, poll, open, close, read and write stuffs
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2017-06-04T15:54:11Z phoe: Synchro: got it. What are you attempting to do here?
2017-06-04T15:54:45Z Synchro: I did a general spi library fo linux spidev
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2017-06-04T15:55:06Z Synchro: I did a general i2c library for linux i2x device
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2017-06-04T15:55:25Z Synchro: and I'm implementing a library for gpio linux device
2017-06-04T15:55:47Z phoe: Got it - so it seems that you need low-level stuff indeed.
2017-06-04T15:56:38Z Synchro: I did ioctl, open and close using cffi foreign-funcall
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2017-06-04T16:43:32Z PuercoPop: In Compiling with Continuations Appel says that Lisp doesn't (which means didn't for us) have first class functions. The book was published in 1991, didn't CL have first class functions? What other Lisp were common at the time that didn't. (The author doesn't count Scheme as a Lisp)
2017-06-04T16:43:56Z phoe: WTF?
2017-06-04T16:43:58Z Bicyclidine: it did.
2017-06-04T16:44:00Z phoe: Lisp doesn't have first class functions?
2017-06-04T16:44:18Z Bicyclidine: he might be referring to namespaces. hard to guess without text
2017-06-04T16:44:39Z phoe: PuercoPop: can you give us a wider quote? a photo/scan of the page?
2017-06-04T16:44:57Z jackdaniel: maybe he was just spreading fear uncertain and doubt due to lack of knowledge?
2017-06-04T16:47:30Z phoe: PuercoPop: http://ns.synrc.com/publications/cat/CPS/Andrew%20W.%20Appel-Compiling%20with%20Continuations%20%20-Cambridge%20University%20Press%20(1992).pdf
2017-06-04T16:47:52Z phoe: I cannot see the quote you are referring to after a brief scan and looking for all instances of "lisp" in the text.
2017-06-04T16:48:07Z whoman2: i thought lisp *is* a first class function
2017-06-04T16:48:23Z Bicyclidine: appel shouldn't be one for FUD.
2017-06-04T16:49:15Z PuercoPop: http://imgur.com/a/S25Kh
2017-06-04T16:49:22Z PuercoPop: That is the full text
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2017-06-04T16:50:13Z Bicyclidine: well... god knows, then
2017-06-04T16:50:15Z _death: maybe he means Lisp before lexical scoping
2017-06-04T16:51:15Z PuercoPop: _death: it seems likely, as when he mentions lexical scope ('statically determined') he doesn't include Lisp as well. But I found it weird because the book was published in '91
2017-06-04T16:51:16Z Bicyclidine: i thought pascal has them too, actually
2017-06-04T16:51:21Z jackdaniel: if it's from 91, then many descendants of LISP had lexical scoping and CL standard was underway (
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2017-06-04T16:51:22Z phoe: ...I can see it in the PDF, page 17
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2017-06-04T16:51:54Z _death: Bicyclidine: Pascal has local functions but they're not first-class
2017-06-04T16:52:20Z Bicyclidine: huh. thought that's what the man or boy test was about
2017-06-04T16:52:36Z _death: Bicyclidine: I thought the test involved quiche
2017-06-04T16:52:42Z phoe: >start the functional programming paradigm
2017-06-04T16:52:53Z phoe: >seemingly don't have functions as first class objects
2017-06-04T16:52:56Z phoe: #justlispthings
2017-06-04T16:53:01Z Bicyclidine: quiche?
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2017-06-04T16:53:54Z _death: https://duckduckgo.com/html?q=pascal+quiche
2017-06-04T16:54:51Z Bicyclidine: is this a mostly unironic "real programmer" thing
2017-06-04T16:55:26Z phoe: obligatory "real programmer" xkcd https://xkcd.com/378/
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2017-06-04T16:56:43Z PuercoPop: Bicyclidine: when I read it as a teenager I thought it was unironic, when I read it as an adult it is clearly sarcasm mocking 'real programmers'TM
2017-06-04T16:57:00Z PuercoPop: jackdaniel: yeah, that is why I found it a weird claim.
2017-06-04T16:57:27Z Bicyclidine: seems unpleasant either way
2017-06-04T16:57:43Z Bicyclidine: anyway, i'd guess appel was mistaken, since/and he probably doesn't care about CL
2017-06-04T16:57:46Z Bicyclidine: no big
2017-06-04T17:01:59Z PuercoPop: So far the book seems pretty good (as in understandable). I'm in the denotational semantics chapter and unlike LiSP, which I barely understood anything from that chapter, CwC does a super job at explaining them in words
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2017-06-04T17:02:43Z whoman2: >in words
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2017-06-04T17:04:25Z TruePika: I've noticed something interesting
2017-06-04T17:04:55Z Bicyclidine: just quoting a fragment by itself is usually incomprehensible, you know
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2017-06-04T17:05:13Z whoman2: interesting things are noticed
2017-06-04T17:05:42Z TruePika: whenever I'm doing work in the Factorio bug forum, whenever someone complains about a particular inconsistancy with a couple of circuit-network functions (which are just about identical to #'EVERY and #'SOME), I just show how the two Lisp functions work
2017-06-04T17:06:04Z TruePika: basically, because #'EVERY defaults to T when SEQUENCE is empty, and #'SOME defaults to NIL
2017-06-04T17:06:23Z TruePika: https://forums.factorio.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=49125#p285449 is one such response, including a CLHS quote
2017-06-04T17:06:46Z TruePika: these Lisp-based replies seem to always end the particular discussion
2017-06-04T17:07:19Z TruePika: I think it's possibly sad that not enough people use languages which support e.g. a zero-argument AND statement
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2017-06-04T17:08:18Z Bicyclidine: i'm getting flashbacks to arguments about 0 exponents
2017-06-04T17:08:34Z TruePika: (I've also used Lisp in a few other places in the forum, mainly to show floating point behaviour)
2017-06-04T17:08:41Z TruePika: (#'RATIONAL is fun to use)
2017-06-04T17:09:32Z TruePika: It's amazing how much I've learned from Lisp that applies to other languages
2017-06-04T17:09:37Z _death: TruePika: it's just ordinary convention from formal logic
2017-06-04T17:09:41Z TruePika: (and the theory in general)
2017-06-04T17:10:23Z TruePika: _death: I know, but it's easier to show that the same "inconsistancy" is present in other software than it is to argue the formalities
2017-06-04T17:11:04Z TruePika: One of my earlier arguments was about how "AND" defaults to true and "OR" to false, like how addition defaults to 0 and multiplication to 1
2017-06-04T17:11:16Z TruePika: (ofc also quoting the relevant Lisp expressions)
2017-06-04T17:11:55Z TruePika: many people nowadays haven't heard of anything like a zero-argument addition or multiplication
2017-06-04T17:12:18Z TruePika: but you can't really represent such a think with infix notation
2017-06-04T17:12:22Z TruePika: *thing
2017-06-04T17:13:00Z TruePika: you need either prefix or postfix notation with scope; Lisp uses prefix and parens for scope
2017-06-04T17:13:16Z _death: TruePika: I had similar difficulty some time ago, explaining the possibility of n>2-arity XOR
2017-06-04T17:13:35Z TruePika: that's basically applying an XOR via #'REDUCE, correct?
2017-06-04T17:13:36Z _death: where in the interpretation I gave it was possible to have short-circuiting
2017-06-04T17:14:02Z TruePika: and now I'm curious, since I didn't think short-circuiting is possible in an XOR
2017-06-04T17:14:03Z _death: TruePika: that is one interpretation, the one I intended _not_ to use
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2017-06-04T17:14:37Z _death: TruePika: https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/5tnst2/the_three_ways_of_xor/ddo3gvo/?context=3
2017-06-04T17:14:41Z TruePika: any argument can change the result of the XOR, so short-circuiting shouldn't be possible
2017-06-04T17:14:51Z TruePika gets link, makes it np, and goes
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2017-06-04T17:15:14Z Bicyclidine: i guess xnor is equality, so n-ary xor would intuitively be inequality, i.e. not "all true" and not "all false"
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2017-06-04T17:15:27Z TruePika: heh, I see, clever
2017-06-04T17:15:55Z Bicyclidine: maybe that's wrong
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2017-06-04T17:16:09Z Bicyclidine: yeah, 1 xor 0 xor 1 is 0
2017-06-04T17:16:54Z Bicyclidine: holy hell this goes on so long
2017-06-04T17:17:01Z TruePika: I mean, as my nick might imply, I have some electrical engineering experience
2017-06-04T17:17:16Z whoman2: ...PikaChu?
2017-06-04T17:17:20Z Bicyclidine: what does your nick have to do with EE?
2017-06-04T17:17:25Z TruePika: ...though I don't think I've ever had any multi-input XOR ICs
2017-06-04T17:17:34Z TruePika: whoman2: correct
2017-06-04T17:17:48Z Bicyclidine: i don't think what pikachu does constitutes engineering
2017-06-04T17:18:03Z TruePika: but _electrical_
2017-06-04T17:18:05Z TruePika: anyway
2017-06-04T17:18:20Z TruePika: multi-input AND is the same as chaining AND together
2017-06-04T17:18:23Z phoe: this pun is shocking
2017-06-04T17:18:31Z TruePika: multi-input OR is the same as chaining OR together
2017-06-04T17:18:47Z Bicyclidine: i wonder if pikachu could have, like, some kind of freaky biological marx generator
2017-06-04T17:18:49Z whoman2: ~______~\
2017-06-04T17:19:02Z TruePika: so it would ofc stand to reason that multi-input XOR is chaining as well, which leads to the "upvoted" side of that discussion
2017-06-04T17:19:20Z whoman2: some low impedence  associations there
2017-06-04T17:19:22Z TruePika: Bicyclidine: I don't think any of the 'dex entries ever went into the actual means of production
2017-06-04T17:19:29Z Bicyclidine: psh naw, it's for kids
2017-06-04T17:19:40Z Bicyclidine: though some of the new pokes are pretty freaky
2017-06-04T17:19:48Z TruePika: I mean, at least for e.g. the Shinx line, it was stated that electricity is generated by movement IIRC
2017-06-04T17:20:16Z Bicyclidine: 1 xor 1 xor 1 is also true
2017-06-04T17:20:18Z TruePika: Platinum: "The extension and contraction of its muscles generates electricity. It glows when in trouble. "
2017-06-04T17:20:26Z Bicyclidine: maybe it's true if the number of true inputs is odd
2017-06-04T17:20:33Z TruePika: Bicyclidine: (1x1)=0, (0x1)=1
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2017-06-04T17:20:53Z TruePika: the general consensus that I've seen is multi-input XOR basically being odd parity
2017-06-04T17:21:02Z Bicyclidine: right. makes sense.
2017-06-04T17:21:06Z TruePika: versus exactly one input being true
2017-06-04T17:21:21Z TruePika: and then XNOR being even-parity
2017-06-04T17:21:50Z Bicyclidine: i don't think you can short circuit then, though.
2017-06-04T17:22:11Z Bicyclidine: which, incidentally, is a slightly confusing term given the proximity to electrical work
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2017-06-04T17:23:25Z Bicyclidine: so death uses a definition that doesn't match the associative behavior, which i'd say is unfortunate, but i guess it depends on what you're doing
2017-06-04T17:23:27Z _death: TruePika: well, my interest in logic did not come from engineering or programming (though I've been programming from an early age).. it was more from philosophy.. since there are many logics it's easy to accept different interpretations
2017-06-04T17:23:31Z TruePika sees if he can find any sort of formal definition for the multi-input form of XOR
2017-06-04T17:24:18Z TruePika: At least Wikipedia (lol "formal") implies that the name only applies to the two-argument form
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2017-06-04T17:24:33Z TruePika: exclusively one argument true out of two
2017-06-04T17:24:33Z Bicyclidine: xor is a social construct
2017-06-04T17:24:43Z _death: I think wikipedia is lacking in many ways...
2017-06-04T17:25:29Z Bicyclidine: it is, but the venn diagrams are pretty sickkkkk.
2017-06-04T17:26:03Z TruePika: heh, the Common Lisp designers avoided this argument entirely; there is no native 3+ argument form of XOR in the language from what I can tell
2017-06-04T17:26:16Z Bicyclidine: plus it says NOR is also called "ampheck". good to know.
2017-06-04T17:26:30Z _death: TruePika: I did link to alexandria in one of my posts :)
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2017-06-04T17:26:58Z Bicyclidine: logxor takes a &rest list
2017-06-04T17:27:17Z _death: logxor uses the chaining interpretation
2017-06-04T17:27:22Z TruePika: hm, I didn't see logxor
2017-06-04T17:27:29Z TruePika: I checked the permutated index of CLHS for X
2017-06-04T17:28:19Z TruePika: heh, no X3J13 issues on the page for logxor etc.
2017-06-04T17:30:04Z TruePika: I mean, I agree that there can be some use for the alternative 3+ argument XOR definition
2017-06-04T17:30:49Z _death: it has been discussed in the cl-su-ai list, by the way
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2017-06-04T17:32:43Z TruePika: _death: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XOR_gate#More_than_two_inputs
2017-06-04T17:32:54Z TruePika: "Strict reading of the definition of exclusive or, or observation of the IEC rectangular symbol, raises the question of correct behaviour with additional inputs. If a logic gate were to accept three or more inputs and produce a true output if exactly one of those inputs were true, then it would in effect be a one-hot detector (and indeed this is the case for only two inputs). However, it is rarely implemented this way in practice."
2017-06-04T17:33:38Z _death: look.. the topic of logic is a bit older than wikipedia or the source to which the "strict reading" pertains to
2017-06-04T17:33:56Z Bicyclidine: with one citation
2017-06-04T17:34:00Z Bicyclidine: (lol)
2017-06-04T17:34:25Z TruePika: yeah, I was mainly seeing if I could find any sort-of-formal (read: non-forum) opposition to the common form of multi-arg XOR
2017-06-04T17:35:02Z TruePika: and I came across the term one-hot which aptly describes the theoretical gate
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2017-06-04T17:36:43Z TruePika: but I never thought of that possible definition of XOR before, so thanks for enlightening me
2017-06-04T17:37:42Z _death: ;)
2017-06-04T17:41:35Z Bicyclidine: looking at TI's listings, multiple input XOR is so uncommon to begin with nobody particularly cares i imagine
2017-06-04T17:41:45Z Bicyclidine: so it turns into one of those bike shed situations
2017-06-04T17:42:52Z Bicyclidine: in fact that one cited is the only one
2017-06-04T17:43:33Z _death: it's not really bike-shedding, just the operation that makes sense for a given task
2017-06-04T17:44:06Z _death: usually the "odd-parity" one make sense, but sometimes the "only one" makes sense
2017-06-04T17:44:08Z Bicyclidine: yeah so it's bike shedding when there is no task because you're just taking issue to something on reddit :p
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2017-06-04T17:45:41Z _death: well, it was a post about XOR and no one mentioned it.. many people are unaware of that interpretation, so I was just trying to give another perspective
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2017-06-04T17:46:10Z Bicyclidine: sure
2017-06-04T17:46:42Z Bicyclidine: digikey only lists two-input ones too. now i'm just wondering what the TI chip is intended for
2017-06-04T17:46:48Z _death: but nowadays there's too many people and too little care for subtle arguments or differing views
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2017-06-04T17:49:01Z phoe: there's too many men
2017-06-04T17:49:04Z phoe: too many people
2017-06-04T17:49:21Z phoe: making too many problemssssss
2017-06-04T17:49:49Z phoe ♪ this is the world we lisp in ♪
2017-06-04T17:50:06Z _death: this is the fate of the internet.. cancerous growth :)
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2017-06-04T20:18:44Z nosefouratyou: could someone help me figure out this inheritance issue? https://gist.github.com/nosefouratyou/b7a07eea5f7c5f55f366621cb807e06a
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2017-06-04T20:19:45Z nosefouratyou: I am able to access the currentstate slot from the fsm class, but I can't access anything from the agent class
2017-06-04T20:20:33Z Bicyclidine: You mean, in fsmagent?
2017-06-04T20:21:20Z Bicyclidine: well and subclasses thereof.
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2017-06-04T20:29:28Z pjb:     :initarg recipientslist
2017-06-04T20:29:28Z pjb:     :initarg :recipientslist
2017-06-04T20:29:28Z pjb:  
2017-06-04T20:29:48Z pjb: Try with name:
2017-06-04T20:29:48Z pjb: (setf (name *a1*) "A One")
2017-06-04T20:29:48Z pjb: (print (name *a1*))
2017-06-04T20:29:48Z pjb:  
2017-06-04T20:30:17Z pjb: ie, it's not an inheritance issue. Just try to read the actual code!
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2017-06-04T20:30:42Z pjb: and thrust your implementation error messages!
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2017-06-04T20:31:54Z nosefouratyou: pjb: thank you!
2017-06-04T20:32:22Z pjb: s/h//
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2017-06-04T20:37:34Z nosefouratyou: is there a way to get a line number for an error?
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2017-06-04T20:41:09Z pjb: nosefouratyou: short answer no.
2017-06-04T20:41:22Z pjb: nosefouratyou: use slime and type v on the backtrace line in sldb.
2017-06-04T20:42:08Z pjb: It would be possible in practice with implementation dependent extensions (such as used by slime), but you should not care.
2017-06-04T20:42:57Z pjb: If the error line number is useful to you, then you're not using lisp as you should (not enough macro, not enough lisp ide, etc).
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2017-06-04T20:54:34Z nosefouratyou: pjb: what do you mean by that last part about not enough macro/lisp ide?
2017-06-04T20:55:16Z pjb: What is the line number of a source form generated by a macro?
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2017-06-04T21:02:46Z nosefouratyou: pjb: ah, that makes sense now
2017-06-04T21:04:21Z _death: but this kind of information is available.. it is utilized when you type 'v'
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2017-06-04T21:12:52Z nosefouratyou: how do I get a substring of a string? like in python I would do asdf[2:5] or something
2017-06-04T21:13:02Z _death: a string is a sequence.. so you can use subseq
2017-06-04T21:13:13Z nosefouratyou: _death: thanks!
2017-06-04T21:14:23Z _death: many times you can avoid it and pass :start/:end arguments.. there's also displaced arrays but you don't need to know about that for now ;)
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2017-06-04T21:18:04Z nosefouratyou: I am getting an error that says "Unbound variable: PAT::YYYY" but I don't have a variable in my code called YYYY
2017-06-04T21:18:14Z nosefouratyou: I mean I used to, but I deleted it
2017-06-04T21:18:23Z nosefouratyou: should I delete the fasl or something?
2017-06-04T21:18:43Z _death: you can try recompiling the whole file (C-c C-k)
2017-06-04T21:21:01Z nosefouratyou: I did that and I got this error: https://gist.github.com/nosefouratyou/779e84ab1c4bd1105349af23067cfa56
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2017-06-04T21:21:28Z _death: good, seems you have a typo then
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2017-06-04T21:24:48Z nosefouratyou: yeah it looks like it was an issue with ccl, not my code
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2017-06-04T21:25:11Z nosefouratyou: I think, I mean I am an idiot and ockhams razor points to me
2017-06-04T21:25:44Z _death: https://trac.clozure.com/ccl/ticket/1134
2017-06-04T21:25:46Z _death: looks like it
2017-06-04T21:26:05Z _death: are you using the latest ccl
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2017-06-04T21:47:02Z nosefouratyou: _death: I think so
2017-06-04T21:47:30Z nosefouratyou: now I am getting this error with sbcl: https://gist.github.com/nosefouratyou/8177b63611b3b8ed6799dd8d01b22caf
2017-06-04T21:49:25Z nosefouratyou: _death: I am using Clozure Common Lisp Version 1.11-r16635  (LinuxX8664)
2017-06-04T21:49:36Z _death: well, did you make sure the slot L contains a number?
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2017-06-04T21:51:06Z nosefouratyou: err... no. but I added ":initform 0" to it and still get that error
2017-06-04T21:51:38Z _death: adding that will not change the already existing instances
2017-06-04T21:52:00Z _death: you can do it using the inspector
2017-06-04T21:52:21Z _death: (or using code..)
2017-06-04T21:53:05Z nosefouratyou: _death: jeez that sounds way out of my abilities. what do you mean?
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2017-06-04T21:53:50Z _death: are you able to easily get a hold of the instance?
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2017-06-04T21:54:38Z _death: you can type `C-c I' then provide it, and from there you'll find your way ;)
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2017-06-04T21:58:51Z |3b|: probably can get it from the backtrace in slime debugger too, hit enter on the line corresponding to that function to show local variables, then hit enter on the value of A (if it doesn't show A, you might be able to get it by recompiling the function with higher debug setting and triggering the error again)
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2017-06-04T22:06:06Z nosefouratyou: shouldn't the init form take care of this issue? why is not adding :initform 0 fixing it?
2017-06-04T22:06:55Z TMA: it won't change instances already existing
2017-06-04T22:07:03Z _death: to do that you'd want to implement the method update-instance-for-redefined-class
2017-06-04T22:07:08Z _death: *for
2017-06-04T22:07:44Z _death: updating automatically may break things
2017-06-04T22:07:53Z _death: so there's a protocol for doing that
2017-06-04T22:08:15Z nosefouratyou: I don't understand. I mean I've restarted my lisp instance, shouldn't that clear it out?
2017-06-04T22:08:30Z _death: yes, it should
2017-06-04T22:08:43Z |3b|: hard to say what is wrong without a full example
2017-06-04T22:10:13Z nosefouratyou: I mean this is my code basically: https://gist.github.com/nosefouratyou/fe73ffd30812bc3ba5bb939acfe7fcb4
2017-06-04T22:10:52Z |3b|: that sounds like SUB-LIST is a broken (or misused) macro
2017-06-04T22:11:41Z pjb: nosefouratyou: you could change it automatically, perhaps using (change-class instance (class-of instance)) or using an intermediate class.
2017-06-04T22:12:02Z nosefouratyou: I added the sublist definition: https://gist.github.com/nosefouratyou/fe73ffd30812bc3ba5bb939acfe7fcb4
2017-06-04T22:12:16Z pjb: nosefouratyou: but while learning and developping it's probably easier to just reload or even reboot your lisp image.
2017-06-04T22:12:32Z Bicyclidine: why is that a macro?
2017-06-04T22:12:53Z _death: your macro assumes end-index is a number, but it is actually the form (- L 1)
2017-06-04T22:12:56Z Bicyclidine: also, is it just subseq?
2017-06-04T22:12:57Z nosefouratyou: Bicyclidine: I am working with an existing code base
2017-06-04T22:13:12Z Bicyclidine: in lisp?
2017-06-04T22:13:16Z nosefouratyou: yup
2017-06-04T22:13:19Z pjb: You would bother modifying the image and implementing what is needed to update the image only if had important data (requiring a lot of time to recompute), or if the image had to keep running (like, if it was running on a space sonde billions of kilometers from here.
2017-06-04T22:13:20Z pjb: ).
2017-06-04T22:13:25Z Bicyclidine: well, the macro's bad
2017-06-04T22:13:53Z pjb: indeed, this is not a macro, it's a function.
2017-06-04T22:13:54Z nosefouratyou: Bicyclidine: wait, it's a defun not a macro. My mistake.
2017-06-04T22:13:58Z Bicyclidine: there you go then
2017-06-04T22:14:00Z pjb: You should use defun.
2017-06-04T22:14:05Z Bicyclidine: probably could still be replaced by subseq tho
2017-06-04T22:14:12Z pjb: As a newbie, don't use defmacro.
2017-06-04T22:14:31Z pjb: You need to be at least green-belt lisper for defmacro.
2017-06-04T22:15:10Z nosefouratyou: pjb: that's good advice, thanks
2017-06-04T22:15:33Z nosefouratyou: also you've made a lot of suggestions that I don't even comprehend (the image stuff I mean)
2017-06-04T22:16:33Z _death: it's also a good idea to better name your slots
2017-06-04T22:16:40Z phoe: a Lisp image is basically your Lisp process and everything that is inside it
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2017-06-04T22:16:59Z pjb: When you boot a lisp, usually you start a little unix program (lisp "kernel"), and it loads a lisp image that contains all the lisp objects (functions, variables, documentation, data, etc)
2017-06-04T22:17:11Z phoe: pjb explained it better
2017-06-04T22:17:26Z pjb: When running in a process, you modify the lisp image by using operators such as defparameter, defun, defmacro, setf, etc.
2017-06-04T22:18:00Z pjb: And then you can save the lisp image, copying the process memory back into an image file, (that can be "executable", meaning the little unix program "kernel" is concatenated), or not.
2017-06-04T22:18:17Z pjb: So then you can boot it later, and go on working with all your modified lisp data and programs.
2017-06-04T22:18:46Z nosefouratyou: pbj: right, I understand the general principle about images. I just don't understand how to inspect values or that complicated stuff you were mentioning.
2017-06-04T22:18:48Z pjb: In that way of working, you would want to update the lisp objects inside the lisp image when you change the source.  This would require some work to track them, and to update them.
2017-06-04T22:18:55Z _death: this is for at least blue belts
2017-06-04T22:19:04Z nosefouratyou: pjb: yeah that last part is beyond me
2017-06-04T22:19:11Z pjb: There are operators like change-class that do it more-or-less automatically and that you could use to that effect.
2017-06-04T22:19:28Z phoe: _death: no, wait, Lisp inspector for blue belts?
2017-06-04T22:19:43Z phoe: I wouldn't rate it that high, inspector is a very useful tool, especially in friendly environments like slime
2017-06-04T22:19:59Z phoe: r-click, inspect, boom - suddenly you know stuff about your objects
2017-06-04T22:20:03Z _death: phoe: no, explanation about saving images and such
2017-06-04T22:20:08Z phoe: ooh, this.
2017-06-04T22:20:10Z phoe: correct.
2017-06-04T22:20:14Z pjb: The usual work flow, on unix systems, is to always boot the same default lisp image (provided by the implementation), and to load programs and data from fasl files (compiled and managed with quicklisp/asdf).
2017-06-04T22:20:42Z pjb: So when you have a bug, you modify the source, compile the fasl file in the unix system, and reload them, or you can reboot the vanilla lisp image, and reload everything.
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2017-06-04T22:21:09Z pjb: This is more work, but modern computing systems are fast enough with SSD and processors so that you don't see the difference really.
2017-06-04T22:21:24Z phoe: Which is a developer's flow of work. Saving images to disk comes in handy when you deploy applications - then you get a single .exe file that contains everything you need, and there is no need to load anything from .fasl files or source files.
2017-06-04T22:21:26Z pjb: phoe: change-class is for blue-belt.
2017-06-04T22:21:31Z phoe: pjb: correct.
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2017-06-04T22:22:42Z nosefouratyou: well thanks for taking the time to describe how it works.
2017-06-04T22:22:48Z _death: the inspector is for white belts :)
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2017-06-04T22:23:02Z pjb: yes.
2017-06-04T22:23:10Z pjb: (inspect anything) ; and have fun!
2017-06-04T22:23:13Z nosefouratyou: I have also been interested in smalltalk recently but the IDE is really foreign (at least pharo is to me)
2017-06-04T22:23:25Z pjb: nosefouratyou: smalltalk is usually pure image-based.
2017-06-04T22:23:46Z Bar`: in emacs when i do c-x c-b to show buffers they always show in next window, the one i would go with c-x o right?
2017-06-04T22:23:59Z pjb: nosefouratyou: there's gst, the GNU smalltalk compiler which is not image-based, but let's you write unix program and scripts like any other unix programming language.
2017-06-04T22:24:02Z phoe: nosefouratyou: read Pharo by Example. it's a pretty good book.
2017-06-04T22:24:26Z pjb: Bar`: C-x b TAB
2017-06-04T22:24:38Z phoe: it goes well into explaining Pharo as a language but also Pharo as an IDE and Pharo as an ecosystem.
2017-06-04T22:24:42Z nosefouratyou: phoe: yeah I've tried going through it. I think I have to watch videos of someone using it though to really learn it.
2017-06-04T22:24:44Z phoe: And also Pharo as Smalltalk.
2017-06-04T22:25:04Z phoe: nosefouratyou: same with Lisp, videos are good.
2017-06-04T22:26:45Z whoman2: isnt Pharo a fork of Squeak
2017-06-04T22:27:08Z nosefouratyou: whoman2: I think so
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2017-06-04T22:31:00Z Bar`: thanks pjb
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2017-06-04T22:34:54Z whoman2: squeak also has LispKit ^_^
2017-06-04T22:35:07Z nosefouratyou: why am I getting these errors?: https://gist.github.com/nosefouratyou/e37315f1aa67ee15ab45af8df2e0880e
2017-06-04T22:35:34Z _death: typo
2017-06-04T22:36:03Z nosefouratyou: _death: thank you... jeez I am dumb
2017-06-04T22:36:11Z _death: in Lisp, we usually write big-average-percent
2017-06-04T22:36:18Z _death: or bid-average-percent
2017-06-04T22:36:35Z _death: it can be easier to read than bidavgprc
2017-06-04T22:47:09Z pjb: or bid-avg-%
2017-06-04T22:47:12Z nosefouratyou: _death: actually I am copying out most of this from a book I have, not my choice of variable names
2017-06-04T22:47:24Z nosefouratyou: why am I getting these errors? https://gist.github.com/nosefouratyou/885971dd811f12cf8dc26eb2484e9d00
2017-06-04T22:47:37Z pjb: bid-best bid-best-size bid-total-size etc.
2017-06-04T22:48:01Z _death: nosefouratyou: misplaced parentheses
2017-06-04T22:48:07Z pjb: nosefouratyou: indentation says that clauses is inside the lambda.
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2017-06-04T22:49:27Z pjb: nosefouratyou: avoid setq; instead write: (member ,temp ',(if (atom key) (list key) key) …)
2017-06-04T22:49:27Z _death: nosefouratyou: you should increase your ask-#lisp-on-error threshold
2017-06-04T22:49:51Z pjb: or switch to #clnoobs
2017-06-04T22:50:13Z _death: no, just think about it further
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2017-06-04T22:50:18Z nosefouratyou: err okay
2017-06-04T22:50:37Z pjb: but indeed, the best way to learn, is to find your bugs yourself.
2017-06-04T22:51:10Z _death: indeed.. once upon a time there was no google.. no internet.. sometimes no source code and no manuals..
2017-06-04T22:51:10Z pjb: One thing you can do, is to build your forms form the bottom-up (or top-down too, but to debug bottom-up works better in g eneral)
2017-06-04T22:53:19Z pjb: nosefouratyou: for example, you can start with (let ((clauses '((("foo") foo) ("bar" bar) (otherwise baz))))  (mapcar (lambda (clause) clause) clauses)) #| --> ((("foo") foo) ("bar" bar) (otherwise baz)) |#  and edit the lambda until you get the right result, then wrap the code around, etc, until you have your function body and the arguments in let, so you can replace the let by a defun.
2017-06-04T22:56:09Z _death: nosefouratyou: what book is that, by the way
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2017-06-04T23:01:25Z nosefouratyou: _death: It's a really cool book called "Professional Automated Trading". It sounds really boring, but it's really cool.
2017-06-04T23:02:47Z _death: hehe, I already found that out by searching "askavgprc" in github ;)
2017-06-04T23:03:36Z nosefouratyou: I can't wait until I get to the swarm intelligence part, that sounds so cool. I don't know much about that besides michael crichton's 'prey'
2017-06-04T23:04:05Z nosefouratyou: I should find another word besides cool, but I can't help the fact that the book is oozing with cool
2017-06-04T23:04:23Z _death: nosefouratyou: you can check out http://www.cleveralgorithms.com/nature-inspired/index.html
2017-06-04T23:06:29Z nosefouratyou: I also have a book called "Computer Aided Financial Analysis" that uses Common Lisp in it. I hope to get to that one next.
2017-06-04T23:06:31Z _death: nosefouratyou: looks interesting
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2017-06-04T23:07:17Z nosefouratyou: It's from the early 90s but also goes into a lot of interesting stuff
2017-06-04T23:08:09Z pjb: nosefouratyou: please, add those books that use lisp to the list of books on http://cliki.net/
2017-06-04T23:08:22Z pjb: http://www.cliki.net/Lisp%20books
2017-06-04T23:08:49Z pjb: Add a section for them.
2017-06-04T23:08:53Z Afterlith[m]: I have maybe an unusual question: is there a book on Lisp that is more theory than practical someone can recommend?
2017-06-04T23:09:07Z Afterlith[m]: Also just joined this channel and looks like I jumped in at the right time!
2017-06-04T23:09:13Z pjb: What kind of theory?
2017-06-04T23:10:02Z Afterlith[m]: Theory on Lisp but could be a higher level overview on programming failing such specificity.
2017-06-04T23:10:24Z Bicyclidine: well programming is itself kind of a "practice" thing
2017-06-04T23:10:28Z whoman2: OnLisp perhaps
2017-06-04T23:10:29Z Bicyclidine: maybe you'd like Lisp in Small Pieces, tho
2017-06-04T23:10:39Z _death: there are texts from "theoretical" people that do with Lisp.. for example https://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~chaitin/lisp.html
2017-06-04T23:10:40Z pjb: Perhaps sicp would be indicated. It uses scheme for its examples, but it's good.  (and somebody wrote did all the exercises in CL).
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2017-06-04T23:11:07Z Bicyclidine: oh good, not the other chaitin book
2017-06-04T23:11:21Z pjb: Lisp in Small Pieces is about implementing lisp (also, implementing a scheme as an example, as 9 different implementation,from interpreter and simple compiler to most sophisticated compiler.
2017-06-04T23:12:02Z Afterlith[m]: Ah great suggestions, thanks everyone!
2017-06-04T23:12:06Z pjb: "Interpreting LISP" might be what you're looking.
2017-06-04T23:12:11Z pjb: for
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2017-06-04T23:12:55Z Afterlith[m]: I’m just getting into Emacs and GuixSD (OS written in Scheme) and I just want to prime my interest before I start getting my hands dirty.
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2017-06-04T23:13:36Z _death: a lot of theoretical texts use Scheme.. http://cs.brown.edu/~sk/Publications/Books/ProgLangs/
2017-06-04T23:13:49Z pjb: Well, #lisp is specifically consacred to Common Lisp. for emacs lisp go to #emacs, for scheme go to #scheme. for any lisp, go to ##lisp.
2017-06-04T23:14:03Z pjb: So LiSP and SICP are good for you as a schemer…
2017-06-04T23:14:17Z pjb:  also check http://schemers.org
2017-06-04T23:14:24Z pjb: But this is out of topic here…
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2017-06-04T23:15:28Z nosefouratyou: I learned about those lisp books through a reddit thread on /r/lisp, but for some reason I can't find the thread now
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2017-06-04T23:15:54Z Afterlith[m]: So maybe ##lisp would fit my topic best.
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2017-06-04T23:16:00Z pjb: they're referenced either in schemers.org or http://www.cliki.net/Lisp%20books anyways.
2017-06-04T23:16:12Z nosefouratyou: I just added them
2017-06-04T23:16:31Z pjb: Thanks.
2017-06-04T23:16:32Z nosefouratyou: I mean I think I did, I don't know how cliki does reviewing or whatever
2017-06-04T23:18:09Z nosefouratyou: no problem. Also I guess I'm going to hang out in #clnoobs since I don't really grok lisp yet.
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2017-06-04T23:40:02Z nosefouratyou: man that takes loop up to a whole new level for me
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