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2017-06-03T00:23:06Z whoman: argoneus, (setf (car '(1 2 3)) 4) ?
2017-06-03T00:23:39Z Bicyclidine: don't modify quoted data
2017-06-03T00:24:04Z whoman: oops
2017-06-03T00:26:46Z pjb: argoneus: you know things that are wrong.
2017-06-03T00:27:03Z pjb:  (cons 1 (cons 2 nil)) #| --> (1 2) |#
2017-06-03T00:27:25Z pjb: And I don't know what you expect, but (cons '(1 2 3) 4) #| --> ((1 2 3) . 4) |#  is perfectly correct.
2017-06-03T00:27:49Z argoneus: hmmm
2017-06-03T00:27:50Z argoneus: that makes sense
2017-06-03T00:29:03Z pjb: argoneus: you can get some hint using:  (com.informatimago.common-lisp.picture.cons-to-ascii:draw-list  (cons 1 (cons 2 nil)))  and  (com.informatimago.common-lisp.picture.cons-to-ascii:draw-list  (cons '(1 2 3) 4))
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2017-06-03T02:14:04Z gabriel_laddel_p: heya
2017-06-03T02:14:11Z gabriel_laddel_p: does anyone have experience with bountysource?
2017-06-03T02:14:23Z gabriel_laddel_p: I need to know what information they need from me to "cash out"
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2017-06-03T04:44:52Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-06-03T04:45:03Z drmeister: How does one specify 'append method combination?
2017-06-03T04:45:16Z beach: clhs defgeneric
2017-06-03T04:45:16Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defgen.htm
2017-06-03T04:45:17Z drmeister: (defgeneric get-state (w) (:method-combination 'append))  - nope
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2017-06-03T04:46:18Z drmeister: beach - Yeah - it doesn't mention 'append - but I thought that was what you used for save-info of ASTs
2017-06-03T04:46:21Z drmeister: Digging.
2017-06-03T04:46:22Z beach: drmeister: Go to the SICL source tree.  Do `git grep method-combination | grep append'
2017-06-03T04:46:53Z drmeister: No quote
2017-06-03T04:46:58Z beach: I am teaching you to fish here.
2017-06-03T04:47:32Z drmeister: I know - I have a lot of fishing rods and nets and sometimes I just come to beg for fish.
2017-06-03T04:48:22Z drmeister: A nice smoked kipper now and then - as it where.
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2017-06-03T04:51:01Z drmeister: Hmm, you put 'append' in the defmethod as well.
2017-06-03T04:51:14Z beach: clhs defmethod
2017-06-03T04:51:17Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defmet.htm
2017-06-03T04:52:17Z drmeister: clhs fish
2017-06-03T04:52:17Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for fish.
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2017-06-03T04:59:51Z drmeister: I spent the last two days with developers of molecular dynamics software who think the end-all-be-all of software development is writing Python bindings for C++ libraries.
2017-06-03T05:01:50Z drmeister: I tried to open their minds to the possibility of domain specific languages and code-generation for scientific computing.
2017-06-03T05:02:06Z drmeister: I got to be "that guy" at the workshop (sigh)
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2017-06-03T05:03:09Z beach: drmeister: I have learned over the years that trying to "open the minds" of people by telling them that they are doing something wrong just isn't working.
2017-06-03T05:03:18Z beach: I explain that in one of my essays.
2017-06-03T05:03:35Z beach: The reaction is most often the opposite to the one desired.
2017-06-03T05:05:30Z drmeister: Yeah - I know, but these are people who deeply care about performance.  I don't see anything wrong with their Fortran or C++.
2017-06-03T05:06:01Z drmeister: But I described Python as that thing that wraps around and strangles computational chemistry development.
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2017-06-03T05:07:03Z beach: The only thing I have found to work is to do things right and then show people what you have done.  Show them, without telling them that it is better than what they do.
2017-06-03T05:07:12Z drmeister: Ugh - but there was this one molecular dynamics engine that I'd like to hook into Cando.
2017-06-03T05:08:02Z drmeister: It can be compiled as a library - but I was told that the way I work with the library is I should assemble commands and queries into strings and pass them to the library's scripting interface.
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2017-06-03T05:08:53Z beach: Amazing.
2017-06-03T05:09:07Z drmeister: A C++ library that doesn't offer C++ functions or classes to interact with directly - I was incredulous.
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2017-06-03T05:09:46Z zshlyg: I think my controversial avoidance of IN-PACKAGE stem from working with literal sources, example ORG files that you preprocess and "concatenate" into a lisp file (which do contain I*-P*). I then present the preprocessed file to ASDF. Not sure if ASDF can take an ORG file and run some preprocessor and pick up the resulting CL-file, that would be wanted.
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2017-06-03T05:10:05Z drmeister: I mean - I'm sure they are under there - but interaction through scripts - ugh.
2017-06-03T05:12:46Z beach: drmeister: Sorry to say this, but things like that are the result of having people who are untrained in software development (but who, because they are scientists, think they can no anything, especially silly things like CS people do) write software.
2017-06-03T05:13:35Z drmeister: "think they can no anything"?
2017-06-03T05:13:44Z beach: "do"
2017-06-03T05:13:44Z drmeister: do? know?
2017-06-03T05:13:50Z drmeister: Right
2017-06-03T05:13:51Z beach: sorry.
2017-06-03T05:13:55Z drmeister: No problem.
2017-06-03T05:14:02Z beach: drmeister: I have seen it dozens of times.
2017-06-03T05:14:11Z drmeister: It was a crucial part of the sentence.
2017-06-03T05:14:24Z beach: One project I was consulting for was canceled after years of development.
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2017-06-03T05:14:56Z beach: They hired domain experts with no software knowledge, because the VP of the company was also a domain expert.
2017-06-03T05:15:19Z beach: When I was called in, they "just had some testing left before release".
2017-06-03T05:15:38Z beach: But for every bug they fixed, they introduced at least one more.
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2017-06-03T05:15:49Z drmeister: These folks make one strong point - the core of their code is the simulation of molecular motions - that is where most of the time is spent - everything is peripheral.   But that gets used to excuse a lot of bad practices that just don't need to be done they way they are.
2017-06-03T05:15:58Z beach: The stuff was written in C++ because "we need all the speed we can get".
2017-06-03T05:16:11Z drmeister: "everything else is peripheral".
2017-06-03T05:18:19Z drmeister: I believe that I need to spend more time building the right molecules and relatively less time (initially) simulating them - so I'm worried about speed everywhere.
2017-06-03T05:19:37Z drmeister: I agree with you though - show them.
2017-06-03T05:20:00Z beach: The problem is that "we need all the speed we can get" literally means "we are willing to spend any amount of additional energy, money, manpower, etc., in order to gain even a minuscule additional speed".  But then they don't have the energy, money, and manpower available.
2017-06-03T05:20:48Z beach: Because they don't realize that the additional energy, money, and manpower needed for even a small gain in speed is HUGE.
2017-06-03T05:21:24Z beach: They use C++ instead of Common Lisp, so they may gain a few nanoseconds here and there, but then they have to spend 10 times the effort to do what they want.
2017-06-03T05:22:16Z beach: But, the widespread belief among untrained people is that "all programming languages are roughly the same"
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2017-06-03T05:22:37Z beach: That just isn't true when it comes to developer productivity.
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2017-06-03T05:30:15Z drmeister: General question: Is it bad form to redefine slots in derived classes that are defined in super classes?
2017-06-03T05:30:22Z drmeister: To do things like change the :initform
2017-06-03T05:30:48Z beach: No, but it's better to use :default-initargs.
2017-06-03T05:31:01Z drmeister: I'm replicating some Python code and that's essentially what they do.
2017-06-03T05:31:05Z drmeister: :default-initargs
2017-06-03T05:31:14Z drmeister: clhs defclass
2017-06-03T05:31:14Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defcla.htm
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2017-06-03T05:34:46Z drmeister: What is it about :default-initargs that makes them preferable to :initform?   They seem like overlapping functionality.
2017-06-03T05:35:36Z drmeister: Is it that I can provide :default-initargs for inherited slots?
2017-06-03T05:35:39Z beach: Slots are "accidental" and initargs are "essential".
2017-06-03T05:35:47Z beach: Slots are implementation details.
2017-06-03T05:36:09Z beach: A protocol only specifies initargs and accessors.
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2017-06-03T05:36:26Z drmeister: Wow - I don't follow.
2017-06-03T05:36:37Z drmeister: accidental vs essential?
2017-06-03T05:36:53Z beach: Terminology from software engineering.
2017-06-03T05:37:09Z beach: So for instance if the base class is part of a protocol, then the documentation does not mention its slots, just its initargs and its accessors.
2017-06-03T05:37:47Z beach: A client-derived class can then use :default-initargs, but if client code uses the slot, then it will be a violation of the abstraction barriers.
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2017-06-03T05:38:30Z drmeister: I see
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2017-06-03T05:40:32Z beach: I recommend that some day you go read the CLIM II specification.  That is how I learned a lot of what I know about object-oriented programming in Common Lisp.
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2017-06-03T05:41:22Z beach: Prior to that, I had read Sonja Keene's book, but that was not enough.
2017-06-03T05:43:21Z drmeister reflects on spending two days with folks who feel that bundling commands up in strings and passing them to a parser constitutes an appropriate API.
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2017-06-03T05:44:37Z easye: drmeister: is there a grammar defined for the strings?
2017-06-03T05:45:45Z drmeister: Yes.
2017-06-03T05:46:04Z beach: drmeister: Unfortunately, situations like that are common in the software industry as well, because the people doing the hiring know nothing about software, so they hire people with insufficient training just because their salary requirements are modest.
2017-06-03T05:46:48Z easye: So, I would divide the stuff you see as CL SYMBOL and STRING components that you need to compose.  Sketch out a basic macro to help you, and grovel a Lisp "binding"?
2017-06-03T05:46:50Z drmeister: Things like:    'if "${steps} > 1000" then quit'
2017-06-03T05:46:54Z beach: drmeister: So they may spend only half the cost for salaries, and then they lose a factor 10 in productivity, but because productivity is hard to measure, they don't know it.
2017-06-03T05:47:16Z easye: Then incrementally add types where you need them.
2017-06-03T05:47:33Z drmeister: I respect these people immensely - I don't want to give the impression that I don't.  It's just... strings.
2017-06-03T05:48:11Z easye: "We go to war with the APIs we have, not the ones we would have chosen."
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2017-06-03T05:49:34Z drmeister: But this is a C++ library.  I just want C++ functions and C++ classes.  They must be in there.
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2017-06-03T05:49:58Z easye: beach: Thanks for the "accidental v. essential" on protocol composition in Common Lisp.  Very insightful.
2017-06-03T05:50:22Z drmeister: I put all this work into developing C++ interop - and then one of the first libraries I want to wrap expects me to generate code in strings.
2017-06-03T05:50:42Z easye: drmeister: Do more Lisp and ignore hoi ploi?
2017-06-03T05:50:57Z beach: easye: Oh, sure.  Again, I recommend reading the CLIM II specification.
2017-06-03T05:51:02Z drmeister: I kind of need this stuff.
2017-06-03T05:51:13Z drmeister: Anyway, I have other library choices.
2017-06-03T05:51:44Z drmeister: Ok, I'm off to bed - good night folks - thanks for the insight.
2017-06-03T05:52:04Z easye: beach: Will read CLIM II more closely.  I always feel like there was some community understanding of what a protocol is that existed in the 70s and 80s that has not fully been transmitted as text.
2017-06-03T05:52:24Z easye: drmeister: Hope yer dreams are full of CONS...
2017-06-03T05:53:01Z beach: easye: Yes, I have never seen it formalized.  That is until I did it. :)
2017-06-03T05:53:11Z easye laughs.
2017-06-03T05:53:15Z beach: http://metamodular.com/protocol.pdf
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2017-06-03T06:00:54Z beach: I believe it was Brooks who introduced "essence" and "accident": http://worrydream.com/refs/Brooks-NoSilverBullet.pdf
2017-06-03T06:01:00Z easye: beach: What does the third constraint on partitions of protocols in section 5.2 help with?
2017-06-03T06:01:14Z easye: �����
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2017-06-03T06:01:14Z easye: ��
2017-06-03T06:01:14Z easye: ���
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2017-06-03T06:01:17Z easye: �����
2017-06-03T06:01:20Z easye: ����������
2017-06-03T06:01:23Z easye:  p
2017-06-03T06:01:27Z easye: 1
2017-06-03T06:01:30Z easye: ���
2017-06-03T06:01:33Z easye:  p
2017-06-03T06:01:36Z easye: 2
2017-06-03T06:01:38Z easye: ��
2017-06-03T06:01:42Z easye:  p
2017-06-03T06:01:45Z easye: ���
2017-06-03T06:01:48Z easye:  t
2017-06-03T06:01:51Z easye: 1
2017-06-03T06:01:55Z easye: ���
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2017-06-03T06:03:41Z beach: easye: That constraint means that t = {cons, number} and p = {cons, car, cdr, +} is not a protocol.  It contains unrelated types and operations.
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2017-06-03T06:04:05Z evenson: beach: Got it.
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2017-06-03T06:05:05Z dax: easye: (You tripped the anti-spam bot. I've removed the network ban, so you should be ok to reconnect now.)
2017-06-03T06:05:15Z easye: dax: Thanks.
2017-06-03T06:05:27Z easye is embarrassed but thankful.
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2017-06-03T06:11:44Z easye: beach: re: section 5.9 regarding the presentation "Protocol Class" is this a class in the CLOS sense?  or class in the sense of a predicate for sets?
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2017-06-03T06:12:11Z beach: The former.
2017-06-03T06:12:39Z beach: At least usually.
2017-06-03T06:12:50Z easye: As defined by its pure members and the assoicated DEFGENERIC infrastructure?
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2017-06-03T06:13:03Z beach: Strictly speaking, since protocol types are not restricted to classes, it can be any type, so any set of objects.
2017-06-03T06:13:31Z easye: Interesting.  Very nice piece of writing.  Thank you.
2017-06-03T06:13:38Z beach: Oh, thanks!
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2017-06-03T06:14:00Z beach: It's part of one of my many unfinished books.  This one is about object-oriented programming in Common Lisp.
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2017-06-03T06:14:30Z easye: beach: You're kinda of like the Knuth of the Lisp world, aintcha?
2017-06-03T06:14:54Z beach: Nah, he actually finishes things.
2017-06-03T06:15:13Z easye: You do too.  It always takes longer than ya think.
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2017-06-03T06:15:29Z beach: Right, Hofstadter's law.
2017-06-03T06:15:57Z beach: Hofstadter's law:  It always takes longer than you expect, even if you take into account Hofstadter's law.
2017-06-03T06:15:59Z easye smiles.  "Yep."
2017-06-03T06:16:23Z easye: Speaking of finishing things, time to get on with my day.
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2017-06-03T06:16:34Z beach: So long easye.
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2017-06-03T06:36:26Z beach: easye: I added the example of a non-protocol that I showed you to section 5.4.  Thanks for pointing out that such an example was needed.
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2017-06-03T06:47:17Z easye: beach: my pleasure.
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2017-06-03T07:31:27Z SingleBuckTooth: anyone here? first time on ERC
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2017-06-03T07:31:44Z SingleBuckTooth: hello there
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2017-06-03T07:32:20Z kami: Good morning.
2017-06-03T07:32:40Z SingleBuckTooth: it's 1am wher I am fren
2017-06-03T07:33:38Z SingleBuckTooth: EXIT
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2017-06-03T07:33:51Z presiden: it's always morning in UGT http://www.total-knowledge.com/~ilya/mips/ugt.html
2017-06-03T07:34:08Z presiden: morning, kami
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2017-06-03T08:49:21Z hr0m_: Hi there. I am currently deciding wheter to learn some Common Lisp or Clojure. No, i am not trying to start a flame war here. Basicaly i just wanted the assurance that they are very simillar anyway, and if i understand the concepts in one of them, there won't be much difference in the other one.
2017-06-03T08:49:26Z hr0m_: Is that true?
2017-06-03T08:50:04Z beach: hr0m_: I don't know Clojure, but if I remember correctly, it encourages functional programming, no?
2017-06-03T08:50:30Z beach: hr0m_: That is not the case with Common Lisp.  Modern Common Lisp uses object-oriented programming with generic functions.
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2017-06-03T08:52:13Z hr0m_: @beach My main interest will be (at some point) Meta Programing. So for that i will probably need those macros i haven't looked into yet :).
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2017-06-03T08:52:46Z hr0m_: beach: I can programm both, i am probably not used to functional programming as much
2017-06-03T08:54:59Z beach: Many Common Lisp features (including macros) are not needed very often, but when you do, they come in very handy, and it would be hard to obtain the equivalent functionality with a language that doesn't have those features.
2017-06-03T08:56:24Z beach: hr0m_: In summary, you can use a functional style with Common Lisp, but it is not enforced the way it is in Closure.  With Common Lisp you also get other features, and in particular the best object system around, and the best condition system around (called "exceptions" in other languages).
2017-06-03T08:56:31Z capisce: hr0m_: Let Over Lambda is a cool book about meta-programming in Lisp: http://letoverlambda.com/index.cl/toc
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2017-06-03T08:57:34Z beach: hr0m_: Oh, I should mention that this channel is dedicated to Common Lisp, so you won't necessarily get an unbiased opinion here.
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2017-06-03T08:58:21Z hr0m_: beach: Thank you for your opinion
2017-06-03T08:58:38Z hr0m_: capisce: Thanks for the book tip. I will look it up
2017-06-03T08:58:54Z beach: Anytime!
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2017-06-03T09:04:51Z jackdaniel: hr0m_: I wouldn't look at Let Over Lambda if you plan to learn CL
2017-06-03T09:05:27Z jackdaniel: it is a book with some cool terribly wrong things, so person not knowing Common Lisp well may get terribly confused and discouraged
2017-06-03T09:06:07Z joga: I liked the book, even if it's a bit edgy
2017-06-03T09:06:20Z jackdaniel: for learning Common Lisp you may read Practical Common Lisp. For metaprogramming, read On Lisp
2017-06-03T09:06:23Z beach: joga: Did you use it as the first book to learn Common Lisp?
2017-06-03T09:06:27Z joga: no
2017-06-03T09:06:28Z jackdaniel: MrBismuth: tell hr0m_ about pcl
2017-06-03T09:06:33Z jackdaniel: MrBismuth: sorry, minion :)
2017-06-03T09:06:39Z jackdaniel: minion: tell hr0m_ about pcl
2017-06-03T09:06:40Z minion: hr0m_: look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2017-06-03T09:06:43Z jackdaniel: minion: tell hr0m_ about onlisp
2017-06-03T09:06:43Z minion: hr0m_: look at onlisp: An advanced textbook on Common Lisp, with special focus on macros. at http://www.cliki.net/On%20Lisp
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2017-06-03T09:08:47Z hr0m_: Thx
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2017-06-03T10:05:56Z dispersed: Is there a dialect of lisp where "cdr" and "car" have reasonable names?
2017-06-03T10:06:22Z michael_: hey, in clisp you have "first" and "rest" i think
2017-06-03T10:06:30Z dispersed: okay..
2017-06-03T10:06:39Z michael_: and second
2017-06-03T10:06:39Z dispersed: yeah I guess you could easily introduce synonyms
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2017-06-03T10:09:53Z jackdaniel: in common lisp first and rest are defined
2017-06-03T10:10:06Z _death: "car" and "cdr" are reasonable names for extracting the car and cdr of a cons
2017-06-03T10:10:09Z jackdaniel: car cdr are accessors to cons structure
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2017-06-03T10:11:49Z dispersed: "reasonable" doesn't simply mean that things have names
2017-06-03T10:11:57Z dispersed: it means you can reason about them
2017-06-03T10:12:10Z dispersed: But yeah, for someone thinking "cdr" is a reasonable name, any name would be "reasonable"
2017-06-03T10:12:34Z dispersed: Even names that do not actually work
2017-06-03T10:12:40Z _death: thanks!  I always thought "reasonable" meant that things have names
2017-06-03T10:12:43Z jackdaniel: dispersed: there is name duplication, because cons is used as building block
2017-06-03T10:12:53Z dispersed: "wtf" is a reasonable name because you can reason about it
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2017-06-03T10:13:04Z jackdaniel: first and rest makes sense in case of list – that's why they are defined and work on cons
2017-06-03T10:13:17Z dispersed: name duplication?
2017-06-03T10:13:26Z dispersed: ah yeah, you mean synonyms?
2017-06-03T10:13:30Z jackdaniel: yes, try (first (cons 1 2)) and (car (cons 1 2))
2017-06-03T10:13:40Z jackdaniel: you'll have the same result
2017-06-03T10:14:05Z jackdaniel: it's not synonym, because you as a programmer mean two different things
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2017-06-03T10:16:00Z dispersed: to me cdr and car just sound like implementation details.
2017-06-03T10:16:05Z jackdaniel: when you access cons (which may be used to implement alist – then it's register, or a tree – then it's branch accessor - you should use car/cdr), when you access list, using first and rest is more intelligible
2017-06-03T10:16:07Z dispersed: and indeed they are, you can check wikipedia about it
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2017-06-03T10:16:54Z jackdaniel: car and cdr are indeed register names, but cons is a structure and these two are legit accessors, not implementation details now
2017-06-03T10:17:26Z jackdaniel: because lisp machines are not widely used now afaik
2017-06-03T10:17:42Z dispersed: emulated registers .p
2017-06-03T10:18:20Z dispersed: well, I get the difference if you don't allow for nested lists
2017-06-03T10:18:23Z jackdaniel: no, not really, rather fundamental data structure: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cons
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2017-06-03T10:19:28Z jackdaniel: either way, to answer your question - there is such dialect, it's called Common Lisp, and if you consider names "car"/"cdr" unreasonable, you may use first / rest
2017-06-03T10:19:40Z dispersed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAR_and_CDR
2017-06-03T10:19:45Z dispersed: that is much more relevant to the topic
2017-06-03T10:20:18Z dispersed: mm yeah thanks
2017-06-03T10:20:31Z axion: Can someone offer some help figuring out why 1 of my tests fails on CCL and ABCL, but passes on SBCL CMUCL and Allegro?
2017-06-03T10:20:56Z axion: It appears those 2 do not know how to handle multiple-value-list
2017-06-03T10:21:06Z jackdaniel: etymology is often loosely correlated with actual meaning, so I think that my pointer was *more* accurate
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2017-06-03T10:21:22Z jackdaniel: axion: what test?
2017-06-03T10:21:27Z axion: jackdaniel: https://travis-ci.org/mfiano/gamebox-math
2017-06-03T10:21:51Z dispersed: I didn't ask about whether those names refer to actual entities, but rather whether they are reasonable, ... the reasonability IMO lies in the etymology, sorry about that.
2017-06-03T10:22:56Z jackdaniel: you don't have to be sorry. I disagree with you, that etymology has anything to do with being reasonable name
2017-06-03T10:23:09Z dispersed: the status quo is nothing but arbitrary
2017-06-03T10:23:15Z dispersed: historical baggage
2017-06-03T10:23:59Z _death: I have the feeling there's not much baggage in your Lisp history
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2017-06-03T10:24:16Z jackdaniel shares that feeling
2017-06-03T10:24:41Z dispersed: even if I had those names hardwired in my brain I still wouldn't call them reasonable
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2017-06-03T10:25:10Z dispersed: they are opaque
2017-06-03T10:25:27Z dispersed: but nuf for now, cu
2017-06-03T10:25:31Z _death: also, see, you can reason about it: car is not in the baggage, the baggage is in the car
2017-06-03T10:25:36Z dispersed: lol
2017-06-03T10:25:38Z axion: Eh, this must be a problem with the prove library. Seems to work when using multiple-value-bind, but not multiple-value-list. Thanks anyway.
2017-06-03T10:25:53Z axion: I swear, if I got paid everytime I reported a bug gone unanswered to fukamachi...
2017-06-03T10:26:22Z dispersed: _death: I can see how that translates to a patriarchal oppression in computer science, too
2017-06-03T10:26:45Z dispersed: cars, those penis extensions all around lisp code
2017-06-03T10:26:52Z jackdaniel: each word is opaque until you intern it ;) it's a pointless discussion, if you want to keep going, join #lispcafe
2017-06-03T10:27:00Z jackdaniel: (and by pointless I mean - very much offtopic)
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2017-06-03T10:31:35Z dispersed: prove library .. is that for correctness proving or math/logic?
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2017-06-03T10:32:15Z dispersed: okay, unit testing so neither.
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2017-06-03T13:47:08Z Bicyclidine: i have two proper lists which may be of different lengths. i would like four values: the first two are new lists that are the maximal prefixes of the two lists with the same length, and the other two are the remaining lists (so at least one is nil)
2017-06-03T13:47:30Z Bicyclidine: like (foo '(1 2) '(3 4 5)) => (1 2), (3 4), nil, (5)
2017-06-03T13:47:33Z Bicyclidine: what's the best way to do it.
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2017-06-03T13:49:01Z beach: Do the lists have many elements?
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2017-06-03T13:51:27Z Bicyclidine: no.
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2017-06-03T13:53:29Z beach: (defun ff (list1 list2) (let* ((l1 (length list1)) (l2 (length list2)) (min (min l1 l2))) (values (subseq list1 min) (subseq list2 min) (nthcdr min list1) (nthcdr min list2))))
2017-06-03T13:54:01Z beach: Actually, you can skip l1 and l2.
2017-06-03T13:54:14Z beach: (let ((min (min (length list1) (length list2)))) ...
2017-06-03T13:54:39Z _death: (let ((s (min (length xs) (length ys)))) (values-list (append (split-at s xs) (split-at s ys))))
2017-06-03T13:55:34Z _death: can be generalized to many lists
2017-06-03T13:55:48Z Bicyclidine: i guess simple is best. i was trying to figure out how to do it with DO and figured i should just stop there
2017-06-03T13:56:23Z beach: If the lists were very long, one might have considered saving on the number of traversals, but hey.
2017-06-03T13:56:29Z Bicyclidine: yeah.
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2017-06-03T16:53:48Z vtomole: Anyone here familiar with Hunchentoot?
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2017-06-03T16:58:11Z loke: vtomole: Yes
2017-06-03T16:58:15Z loke: I am reasonable familiar
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2017-06-03T17:00:34Z vtomole: Please bare with me. My code is working locally, but when i put it online, it breaks. http://paste.lisp.org/display/348058
2017-06-03T17:00:59Z loke: vtomole: I neve ruse easy handlers
2017-06-03T17:01:04Z loke: I configure my own dispatchers.
2017-06-03T17:02:34Z loke: But that stuff will definitely give you some interesting errors. You need to use a bit of EVAL-WHEN
2017-06-03T17:04:47Z vtomole: Why would generating a macro locally be different than generating it online?
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2017-06-03T17:05:45Z vtomole: Oh. Is it because locally I am using the intepreter, but online, it's compiled?
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2017-06-03T17:06:54Z loke: vtomole: Possibly, or more likely that you compiled it in parts as you were writing the code.
2017-06-03T17:07:13Z loke: You need to put the defun inside an EVAL-WHEN
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2017-06-03T17:09:27Z vtomole: (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) ?
2017-06-03T17:09:54Z loke: (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute)
2017-06-03T17:12:40Z vtomole: OK, works locally. Why eval-when the css-generator in this case?
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2017-06-03T17:13:36Z loke: because if you put a function in a file, and a macro in the same file that uses that function, the latter will not see the former.
2017-06-03T17:14:05Z loke: you can put the function in a differnt compilation unit
2017-06-03T17:14:08Z loke: or you can use eval-when
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2017-06-03T17:21:19Z pjb: cf. clhs 3.2.2.3
2017-06-03T17:21:22Z pjb: clhs 3.2.2.3
2017-06-03T17:21:22Z specbot: Semantic Constraints: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_bbc.htm
2017-06-03T17:25:55Z vtomole: I'm getting this now:caught ERROR: ;   (during macroexpansion of (CSS-MAKER)) ;   The function AUBREE::CSS-GENERATOR is undefined.
2017-06-03T17:26:21Z vtomole: When i load my system.
2017-06-03T17:28:28Z pjb: Where and WHEN is this function defined?
2017-06-03T17:28:46Z vtomole: Before the macro definition.
2017-06-03T17:28:58Z pjb: lisppaste!
2017-06-03T17:29:14Z pjb: Annotate your paste with the new version.
2017-06-03T17:29:57Z vtomole: http://paste.lisp.org/display/348060
2017-06-03T17:30:26Z pjb: vtomole: now, think.  You define a function. Inside the function there's an eval-when.  When is this eval-when evaluated?
2017-06-03T17:31:28Z pjb: then read:
2017-06-03T17:31:30Z pjb: clhs defun
2017-06-03T17:31:30Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defun.htm
2017-06-03T17:31:35Z vtomole: Right after the macro has been evaluated, so the macro doesn't know about css-generator?
2017-06-03T17:31:59Z pjb: Anything that's in the body of a function is evaluated at run-time, when the function is called.
2017-06-03T17:32:19Z pjb: So indeed, it cannot have effect before the function is called, but it cannot be called from the macro, since it's not defined yet!
2017-06-03T17:32:40Z pjb: Notice in clhs defun how it says: defun is not required to perform any compile-time side effects. In particular, defun does not make the function definition available at compile time.
2017-06-03T17:32:57Z vtomole: hmm interesting
2017-06-03T17:33:11Z pjb: Ie. when you compile a defun, nothing is created in the compilation environment. Only it's noted that the symbol names a function, and code is generated in the fasl file
2017-06-03T17:33:57Z pjb: This is why you should use eval-when so that the defun is executed at compilation-time (in addition to load-time and "execute" which is when you load the source instead of the fasl file).
2017-06-03T17:34:09Z pjb: Put the defun INSIDE the eval-when!
2017-06-03T17:34:17Z vtomole: ah! :D
2017-06-03T17:34:42Z pjb: vtomole: hint: nobody understands the semantics of eval-when when it's not a top-level form.
2017-06-03T17:34:56Z pjb: clhs eval-when
2017-06-03T17:34:56Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_eval_w.htm
2017-06-03T17:35:07Z pjb: so always use it as a top-level form, and in general with the 3 situations.
2017-06-03T17:36:23Z vtomole: Sorry I mis-understood what you meant loke
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2017-06-03T17:44:46Z vtomole: pjb: Thank you.
2017-06-03T17:45:17Z vtomole: Lesson learned: I should  run compiled files when i'm developing locally.
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2017-06-03T17:46:04Z pjb: Not necessarily. But you should put functions used at macroexpansion time in eval-when.
2017-06-03T17:46:21Z pjb: Or in a separate file that can be compiled and/or loaded before the macros are used.
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2017-06-03T18:06:34Z slyrus: memory-fault-error at address #x5. fun.
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2017-06-03T19:29:04Z drmeister: When does one use :initform vs :default-initargs  in defclass?   I asked this yesterday but I'm still a bit puzzled.
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2017-06-03T19:32:23Z doby162: Hey folks! I have a piece of code that I've been working on for a while, but lately I have been putting it on a cloud server and letting it run for a long time. Eventually, sbcl always quits with the message "Killed". Is that a "feature" of sbcl? Or should I suspect my OS?
2017-06-03T19:33:02Z drmeister: I'm thinking :initform when you define the slot and :default-initargs when a derived class needs to initialize it to some other default value.  Maybe that's all there is to it.
2017-06-03T19:35:41Z drmeister: slyrus: Maybe #x5 refers to a tagged pointer to a function object (http://lars.nocrew.org/lisptags.html)   #b101 -> function tag.
2017-06-03T19:36:09Z drmeister spends a lot of time looking at tagged pointers.
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2017-06-03T19:39:37Z slyrus: hmm... interesting. way too many interconnected libraries for me to debug this though :(
2017-06-03T19:41:09Z Baggers: slyrus: was it something cepl related that triggered it?
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2017-06-03T19:45:40Z slyrus: Baggers: no :( woo/clack/djula/etc...
2017-06-03T19:45:50Z slyrus: a whole 'nother set of hairy libraries
2017-06-03T19:45:58Z Baggers: slyrus: ah, nm then. hehe indeed
2017-06-03T19:46:06Z drmeister: Is there something wrong with saying:    (asdf:load-system "/Users/meister/Development/widget-dev/cl-jupyter-widgets/src/cl-jupyter-widgets.asd")
2017-06-03T19:46:23Z drmeister: The file exists and it's an asdf:defsystem - but it keeps complaining with:
2017-06-03T19:46:33Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/ATrPjHia/
2017-06-03T19:46:52Z drmeister: Oh - there is a dependency
2017-06-03T19:47:04Z Bicyclidine: yeah that's not how load system works
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2017-06-03T19:47:26Z Bicyclidine: if you want to load an asd file use load-asd, then use load-system for the system it defines
2017-06-03T19:47:45Z drmeister: Ah
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2017-06-03T20:00:08Z argoneus: this language is driving me crazy
2017-06-03T20:00:14Z argoneus: (loop
2017-06-03T20:00:14Z argoneus: 	  (let* ((current (pop queue))
2017-06-03T20:00:14Z argoneus: 	         (neighbours (get-neighbour-tiles grid current))) ... stuff
2017-06-03T20:00:17Z argoneus: why is "current" nil?
2017-06-03T20:00:30Z argoneus: if I (print (pop queue)) before the loop it prints it normally
2017-06-03T20:00:49Z argoneus: this language is pissing me off
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2017-06-03T20:07:06Z argoneus: is there some special behaviour of let inside a loop or what
2017-06-03T20:08:40Z Baggers: no. Your code sample doesnt contain enough context to work out what is wrong. Do you have a gist or repo that is accessible?
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2017-06-03T20:10:48Z argoneus: it's part of a homework assignment
2017-06-03T20:10:58Z argoneus: I don't really want to post it publically
2017-06-03T20:11:01Z argoneus: can I PM it?
2017-06-03T20:11:49Z drmeister: If queue contains nil entries or you empty it then current will become nil
2017-06-03T20:12:07Z argoneus: yeah, but
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2017-06-03T20:12:21Z argoneus: (append queue item) (print (pop queue)) -> OK
2017-06-03T20:12:46Z argoneus: (append queue item) (loop (current (pop queue) etc) -> current is nil
2017-06-03T20:12:59Z Baggers: append is not destructive
2017-06-03T20:13:18Z argoneus: ...oh
2017-06-03T20:13:22Z argoneus: I guess I should setf it then
2017-06-03T20:13:42Z Baggers: sounds like a good place to start exploring :)
2017-06-03T20:14:01Z Baggers: clhs append
2017-06-03T20:14:01Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_append.htm
2017-06-03T20:14:02Z Baggers: append returns a new list that is the concatenation of the copies
2017-06-03T20:15:13Z pjb: argoneus: use print
2017-06-03T20:15:44Z pjb: (loop (let* ((current (pop queue)) …) (print `(current ,current)) …))
2017-06-03T20:16:21Z pjb: (loop (let* ((current (pop queue)) …) (print `(current = ,current queue = ,queue)) …))
2017-06-03T20:16:59Z Baggers: argoneus: also, as you may have spotted above, append is for concatenating lists. so (append '(1 2) 3) wont do what you expect. (append '(1 2) '(3)) may though
2017-06-03T20:19:41Z argoneus: oh, hm
2017-06-03T20:21:39Z Baggers: argoneus: one question may be, do you need to add it to that end of the list. Maybe use cons to add it to the front and reverse as the last step of your function. maybe not, but worth playing with
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2017-06-03T20:27:39Z aeth: CL has no built in-queue (but two built-in stacks). If you don't like its behavior, perhaps your assignment's requirements are bad.
2017-06-03T20:28:10Z Baggers: aeth: dont confuse things
2017-06-03T20:28:50Z aeth: In real world CL (and check to see if you can do this in your assignment), what probably should be done is to encapsulate the queue with enqueue/dequeue functions (or methods)
2017-06-03T20:28:58Z aeth: That way you only have to worry about the underlying data structure twice.
2017-06-03T20:29:00Z Baggers: aeth: the assignment is the assignment, no sense faffing around it. Might not be exact CL terminology but its what they have
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2017-06-03T20:29:26Z argoneus: the goal is to implement BFS
2017-06-03T20:29:33Z argoneus: to find a path in a graph
2017-06-03T20:30:43Z aeth: Then you should be able to get away with defining an enqueue and dequeue.
2017-06-03T20:31:06Z aeth: Lisp/Scheme style likes lots of tiny functions.
2017-06-03T20:32:44Z argoneus: yeah I started noticing that
2017-06-03T20:33:53Z aeth: (You have to use macros if you are working directly on a list-as-queue, though.)
2017-06-03T20:34:09Z pjb: Not necessarily.
2017-06-03T20:34:15Z aeth: Afaik, functions or methods will only work if you encapsulate it first.
2017-06-03T20:34:21Z pjb: You can just wrap the list in structure, like a cons cell.
2017-06-03T20:34:25Z aeth: Right.
2017-06-03T20:34:38Z pjb: (defun make-empty-queue () (cons 'queue nil))
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2017-06-03T20:35:03Z aeth: You can encapsulate it with cons, defclass, defstruct, etc. Then you don't have to worry about place-modifying macros.
2017-06-03T20:35:07Z pjb: or of course, (defstruct queue head tail)
2017-06-03T20:35:39Z aeth: It's not too hard to write the macro though, if it can be defined with define-modify-macro: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/m_defi_2.htm
2017-06-03T20:36:12Z aeth: pjb: Personally, I use structs for queues.
2017-06-03T20:36:35Z pjb: For students who use lisp only to implement some datastructure exercise, it's better to avoid macros.
2017-06-03T20:36:50Z aeth: Definitely.
2017-06-03T20:36:59Z aeth: I would not use define-modify-macro in a school assignment.
2017-06-03T20:37:23Z aeth: It's so niche (but useful in that niche), it took me years to find out about it.
2017-06-03T20:38:51Z aeth: Writing is about knowing your audience, and imo a school assignment means using a simple subset of the language that the grader is likely to know.
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2017-06-03T21:55:02Z deba5e12: hey, I just migrated over to a new machine, and am running into a bit of trouble getting lispbuilder-sdl to work. this machine uses an nvidia card for graphics, whereas my old machine, where this library worked just fine, used an integrated intel chip.
2017-06-03T21:55:23Z whoman: drivers?
2017-06-03T21:55:29Z deba5e12: the error i'm getting now is "  ERROR Cannot initialize the video subsystem. Cannot create the display surface
2017-06-03T21:55:39Z deba5e12: the driver I'm using is nvidia
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2017-06-03T21:56:58Z whoman: hmm try to ask in #lispgames as well, there are a few knowledgable devs using lispbuilder-sdl
2017-06-03T21:57:34Z deba5e12: thanks, i'll pop in there as well
2017-06-03T21:58:33Z antoszka: deba5e12: what distro is that on?
2017-06-03T21:59:00Z deba5e12: nixos
2017-06-03T21:59:43Z antoszka: hm
2017-06-03T22:00:02Z deba5e12: but since i'm still getting the hang of the way it manages dependencies, i'm working from a unix-style lib file hierarchy in my home dir, so far as libsdl and other shared libs that i'm using in my lisp code goes
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2017-06-03T22:02:40Z antoszka: deba5e12: tried to see if (sdl:init-sdl :video t) returns anything verbose?
2017-06-03T22:04:53Z deba5e12: nil
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2017-06-03T22:48:04Z malice: Hi, does cl-ppcre support the \p{...} perl regex?
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2017-06-03T22:49:37Z Bicyclidine: seems to. you can customize it with a variable, even
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2017-06-03T22:51:31Z malice: Bicyclidine: do I need to somehow enable unicode?
2017-06-03T22:51:49Z malice: I tried it with scan function and it didn't seem to work, I might be doing something wrong though
2017-06-03T22:51:54Z Bicyclidine: i dunno. have you checked the manual?
2017-06-03T22:54:19Z malice: Oh, I see.
2017-06-03T22:54:26Z malice: Yeah, by default it won't work, ty
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