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2017-06-01T03:36:56Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-06-01T03:38:00Z axion: Greetings, beach
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2017-06-01T07:05:41Z drl: Has date-calc been removed from quicklisp?
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2017-06-01T07:10:49Z drl: Perhaps I should ask why it has been removed.
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2017-06-01T07:23:13Z loke`: drl: What is it you need to do?
2017-06-01T07:23:22Z loke`: drl: Most date stuff is handled by local-time
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2017-06-01T07:30:31Z ecraven: is there a good single-page overview of all the FORMAT directives?
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2017-06-01T07:31:01Z ecraven: ~^ and ~& are hard to search for :-/
2017-06-01T07:31:47Z jackdaniel: ecraven: http://l1sp.org/search?q=%7E%26
2017-06-01T07:31:55Z otwieracz: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/22_c.htm
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2017-06-01T07:32:13Z otwieracz: Well, it's not exactly single page.
2017-06-01T07:32:23Z axion: https://www.hexstreamsoft.com/articles/common-lisp-format-reference/format-directives/
2017-06-01T07:35:04Z axion: You may also find this interesting https://github.com/fiddlerwoaroof/format-string-builder
2017-06-01T07:36:02Z jackdaniel: Xach: do you accept donations for l1sp.org?
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2017-06-01T07:45:27Z ecraven: hm.. under what circumstances does format insert extra line breaks?
2017-06-01T07:46:00Z ecraven: this: (format t "@deffn {Command} ~a ~{~a~^ ~}" "clear-window-marks" (sb-introspect:function-lambda-list cmd)) inserts line breaks and correctly indents the s-expression argument if the lambda list is long enough :-/
2017-06-01T07:46:07Z ecraven: I'd like it all to be printed in one line, no line breaks
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2017-06-01T07:51:55Z drl: loke, I have a program that uses date-calc, and don't have time to rewrite it using different code right now.
2017-06-01T07:52:13Z ecraven: jackdaniel: thanks!
2017-06-01T07:53:39Z jackdaniel: drl: then you have to put date-calc in your asdf registry
2017-06-01T07:53:48Z jackdaniel: I think ASDF looks in ~/common-lisp by default
2017-06-01T07:53:56Z jackdaniel: or if you use QL, put it in local-projects
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2017-06-01T07:56:19Z drl: jackdaniel, I used git clone to put it in local-projects, but ql does not find it.
2017-06-01T07:56:38Z jackdaniel: drl: try (ql:register-local-projects)
2017-06-01T07:56:49Z jackdaniel: or restart your lisp image, then it should find it "automagically"
2017-06-01T08:03:03Z drl: jackdaniel, tried both. ql still doesn't find date-calc.
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2017-06-01T08:04:01Z drl: But i've been called to eat.  I'll be back in a few minutes.
2017-06-01T08:04:37Z beach: Eat in a few minutes?  Clearly not in France.
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2017-06-01T08:07:34Z jackdaniel: drl: does date-calc have date-calc.asd file?
2017-06-01T08:08:01Z jackdaniel: drl: by "doesn't find" you ean that you can't say: (ql:quickload 'date-calc) right?
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2017-06-01T08:21:26Z drl: jackdaniel, date-calc.asd was encrypted. It works now. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.
2017-06-01T08:23:39Z jackdaniel: encrypted?
2017-06-01T08:23:46Z jackdaniel: sure, no problem
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2017-06-01T08:38:24Z drl: jackdaniel, I meant compressed, not encrypted.
2017-06-01T08:39:42Z jackdaniel: ah
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2017-06-01T08:46:50Z drl: What is the best way to make stand-alone sbcl program?
2017-06-01T08:47:45Z jackdaniel: net.diderverna.clon is a way to go
2017-06-01T08:48:11Z jackdaniel: drl: https://www.lrde.epita.fr/~didier/software/lisp/clon.php
2017-06-01T08:48:22Z jackdaniel: it's in quicklisp under the name net.…
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2017-06-01T08:48:45Z jackdaniel: portable, complete and well documented solution
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2017-06-01T08:49:52Z drl: jackdan
2017-06-01T08:50:16Z drl: jackdaniel, Thanks! I'll check that out.
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2017-06-01T09:07:50Z axion: What CL implementation is "alisp"? It's one of the implementations that are tested in my Tavis-CI instance, but searching for this implementation is pretty difficult. Where can I learn more about it?
2017-06-01T09:08:46Z jackdaniel: it's allegro lisp
2017-06-01T09:09:38Z axion: Aha thank you.
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2017-06-01T12:14:24Z zshlyg: When emacs/slime editing a file without top-level IN-PACKAGE, can you change what package expressions are sent to? It seems if the I-P is missing, it gets the package from the slime-repl.
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2017-06-01T12:15:24Z jackdaniel: always use in-package, relying on unspecified behavior is bad if not worst
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2017-06-01T12:16:52Z zshlyg: jackdaniel: yes, therefor I would like to specify the package by calling some emacs-slime function before calling slime-eval-expr.
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2017-06-01T12:17:34Z jackdaniel: emacs-slime isn't part of CL
2017-06-01T12:18:06Z jackdaniel: in-package *is* part of CL
2017-06-01T12:20:55Z zshlyg: jackdaniel: emacs-slime can decide what CL-side package an sent expression will be evaluated in.
2017-06-01T12:21:22Z dim: C-c ~ runs the command slime-sync-package-and-default-directory
2017-06-01T12:21:41Z dim: zshlyg: use that to have your REPL in the same package as your in-package form in your file
2017-06-01T12:22:35Z jackdaniel: dim: useful, didn't know about that one, thanks
2017-06-01T12:22:52Z knobo: What does this mean? The fifth argument (in keyword position) is not a constant, weakening keyword
2017-06-01T12:23:38Z jackdaniel: knobo: maybe (let ((a :bar) (b :qux)) (apply #'foo (list a 3 b 4))) ;?
2017-06-01T12:23:47Z dim: C-c C-y runs the command slime-call-defun
2017-06-01T12:24:06Z dim: there's also that one then, that formats a call to the function at point for you, pretty useful
2017-06-01T12:24:34Z axion: knobo: Is this from alexandria by chance?
2017-06-01T12:24:35Z knobo: (postmodern:with-connection '("username" "password" "localhost" :pooled-p t)
2017-06-01T12:24:45Z dim: well you can be anywhere in the function's body apparently
2017-06-01T12:24:48Z jackdaniel: zshlyg: if you really want to shoot yourself in the foot whatsoever use slime-repl-set-package command
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2017-06-01T12:25:16Z knobo: which expands to something like jackdaniel says.
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2017-06-01T12:26:10Z beach: zshlyg: For good reasons, jackdaniel is asking why your file does not have an IN-PACKAGE in it.
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2017-06-01T12:27:04Z knobo: Should i do anything about the warning?
2017-06-01T12:27:46Z beach: zshlyg: In fact, my files all have not only (IN-PACKAGE ...) but even (CL:IN-PACKAGE ...) in case they happen to be processed with *PACKAGE* being a package that does not :USE the "COMMON-LISP" package.
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2017-06-01T12:28:44Z knobo: I don't understand what the compiler means about t not beeing a constant.
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2017-06-01T12:29:15Z knobo: or :pooled-p is not a constant.
2017-06-01T12:29:20Z jackdaniel: knobo: I'd ignore it. It means, that functions with keyword arguments is called with apply, so these arguments can't be resolved and call inlined during compilation
2017-06-01T12:30:14Z jackdaniel: in case of macros which do magic with argument list it's hard (if not impossible) to avoid
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2017-06-01T12:30:53Z jackdaniel: it doesn't mean that your call is incorrect or something
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2017-06-01T12:31:57Z knobo: ok, thanks.
2017-06-01T12:32:21Z zshlyg: jackdaniel: Thanks I'll look into slime-repl-set-package, it should work, perhaps I can find some way to also restore to the previous repl-package after expression is sent.
2017-06-01T12:32:43Z jackdaniel: there is also push-package and pop-package, but let me say it once more: what you do is *wrong*
2017-06-01T12:33:28Z beach: knobo: When you call a function like this (F X), then X is not a constant, even if the value of X is :POOLED-P.  The compiler usually tries to avoid determining AT COMPILE TIME what the VALUE AT RUNTIME of an argument might be.  So the compiler only sees X and not :POOLED-P, and it complains that it can not work with X the way it could have worked if the call were (F :POOLED-P).
2017-06-01T12:33:56Z beach: zshlyg: So why is it again that your file does not have an IN-PACKAGE in it?
2017-06-01T12:36:24Z zshlyg: jackdaniel,beach: I guess my arguments are vague, but I dont fully subscribe to the in-package camp :)
2017-06-01T12:37:14Z jdz: knobo: the DB-parameters list starts with DB name.
2017-06-01T12:37:54Z jackdaniel: some concepts are a matter of taste (for instance DO vs LOOP, or CLOS vs non-CLOS etc) and some are a matter of program correctness
2017-06-01T12:37:59Z jackdaniel: your issue fits in the latter
2017-06-01T12:38:14Z jackdaniel: not including in-package in file is incorrect, because you never know which package your file is evaluated in
2017-06-01T12:38:30Z jackdaniel: by ASDF, by hand by a programmer, from other script, slime etc
2017-06-01T12:38:46Z jackdaniel: s/evaluated/processed/
2017-06-01T12:39:46Z beach just lost interest in the IN-PACKAGE discussion, agreeing with jackdaniel.
2017-06-01T12:40:41Z presiden: https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/6e6zwn/i_had_no_idea_common_lisp_had_actually_been_used/
2017-06-01T12:40:52Z presiden: TIL, common lisp in nintendo game
2017-06-01T12:41:28Z zshlyg: All arguments you stated in favor of in-package are sensible. Aren't there any arguments against using in-package?
2017-06-01T12:42:20Z dim: zshlyg: none whatsoever (that I know of)
2017-06-01T12:42:25Z axion: None
2017-06-01T12:44:39Z beach: Oh, I can see one.  If you are bootstrapping a Common Lisp system, and you deliberately want the code to be read in a package that you deliberately set to something like COMMON-LISP-BOOT-IN-HOST.  But for the application programmer, I can see no reason.  Then, in SICL I don't have to play with the package system, because I use first-class global environments instead.
2017-06-01T12:45:13Z beach: So all the SICL system code has (CL:IN-PACKAGE ...) in every file.
2017-06-01T12:47:06Z dim: well in SICL don't you rewrite the package system?
2017-06-01T12:47:23Z beach: Hard to do when you bootstrap in an existing Common Lisp system.
2017-06-01T12:48:14Z beach: I need to compile code such as (defun cadr (x) (car (cdr x))) in a host Common Lisp system.
2017-06-01T12:49:33Z beach: dim: My bootstrapping technique is a bit unusual.
2017-06-01T12:51:04Z dim: yeah I began reading the SICL doc/paper and was so confused
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2017-06-01T12:51:32Z beach: dim: Let me know if you want some explanation.
2017-06-01T12:51:32Z dim: my point here was to say that the only time you don't want to use in-package would be when implementing the package system in the language...
2017-06-01T12:51:33Z knobo: jdz: yes, I made a mistake when writing it weechat as it does not have autodoc
2017-06-01T12:52:05Z dim: beach: I'm interested but it's well over my head, it's just a curiosity at the time, so thanks for the offer but we would both lose our time there
2017-06-01T12:52:41Z beach: dim: OK.  Feel free to ask at some later point.
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2017-06-01T12:53:29Z compro: how to execute a variable's value as a function in lisp?
2017-06-01T12:53:38Z beach: clhs funcall
2017-06-01T12:53:38Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_funcal.htm
2017-06-01T12:53:54Z beach: compro: ↑
2017-06-01T12:54:36Z compro: thank you
2017-06-01T12:54:42Z beach: Anytime.
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2017-06-01T12:58:16Z dim: beach: thanks!
2017-06-01T12:58:52Z dim: my main focus in CL these days remains pgloader of course
2017-06-01T12:58:58Z dim: quite a practical endeavour
2017-06-01T13:00:26Z jackdaniel: cool projects are cool ;)
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2017-06-01T13:03:58Z dim: hehe, thanks
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2017-06-01T13:04:34Z dim: thanks to switching to CL pgloader has evolved from boring (CSV import) to quite cool indeed (full database migration from a connection string)
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2017-06-01T13:25:40Z mrottenkolber: jackdaniel: thank you *so* much for the proof read! Great stuff!
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2017-06-01T13:27:27Z jackdaniel: glad I could help :-)
2017-06-01T13:29:09Z phoe_: mrottenkolber: I have not forgotten
2017-06-01T13:29:12Z phoe_: I will do it this evening.
2017-06-01T13:29:18Z phoe_: Just - things are rather hectic for me.
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2017-06-01T13:52:32Z mrottenkolber: phoe_: don’t feel obligated!
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2017-06-01T13:53:43Z mrottenkolber: No idea how daniel does it, but its not normal to reliably get these kinds of favors from your trusted friends, let alone strangers from the internet. :D
2017-06-01T13:55:10Z beach: mrottenkolber: Maybe not "normal" as in "consistent with the norm".  But quite common here in #lisp.
2017-06-01T13:55:50Z mrottenkolber: Who needs friends when you have #lisp
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2017-06-01T13:56:05Z phoe_: xD
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2017-06-01T13:57:15Z mrottenkolber: phoe_ and me have already established that you don’t need to verbalize your conversations if you have wifi and #lisp at ELS
2017-06-01T13:57:18Z dlowe: With lispers like these...
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2017-06-01T14:11:48Z TMA: is it really correct to use (in-package ...)? shouldn't be (cl:in-package ...) or (common-lisp:in-package ...) be used instead?
2017-06-01T14:12:16Z phoe_: TMA: we assume that nobody shadows IN-PACKAGE without a very good reason to do so
2017-06-01T14:12:21Z phoe_: also, uh, actually
2017-06-01T14:12:39Z phoe_: AFAIK, when you start reading a file, you are in the package CL-USER
2017-06-01T14:13:02Z phoe_: so the symbol IN-PACKAGE is always CL:IN-PACKAGE
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2017-06-01T14:14:56Z Bicyclidine: it seems unlikely that anybody is going to have an in-package symbol distinct from the CL one for a package that code is supposed to be read in
2017-06-01T14:15:26Z Bicyclidine: if they do, they either know what they're doing and i don't want to fuck with them, or they're going to shoot off their foot and most of the attached leg so I don't mind giving them the experience
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2017-06-01T14:20:09Z pjb: TMA: it depends.
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2017-06-01T14:21:28Z jackdaniel shares  Bicyclidine's point of view
2017-06-01T14:21:29Z pjb: TMA: in-package would depend on the loader: if the loader loads your file in a package where in-package is not cl:in-package, it may let it do some nice things (like shadowing CL with another package that has better or different operators).
2017-06-01T14:21:41Z pjb: TMA: see for example Image Based Development http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/ibcl/index.html
2017-06-01T14:22:35Z pjb: TMA: of course, on the other hand, you may want to avoid that. Then you would prefer to write cl:in-package (or the longer package name).  But this can still be overriden with reader macros.
2017-06-01T14:23:35Z jackdaniel: on the other hand doing (cl:load "file.lisp") from some package which doesn't have in-package imported in it may be a disaster. fwiw it's easy to spot and correct when that actually happens
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2017-06-01T14:25:33Z pjb: My point is that if you use cl:in-package, or even |CL|:|IN-PACKAGE|, you make it harder for tools to process your sources with an alternative definition of the CL package.
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2017-06-01T14:26:26Z jackdaniel: yes, I was referring to my previous statement
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2017-06-01T14:27:09Z jackdaniel: good example of how it makes harder for tools is that slime doesn't recognize cl:defpackage or cl:in-package (only versions without package accessors)
2017-06-01T14:27:33Z pjb: phoe_: AFAIK, asdf doesn't load or compile files from the cl-user package.
2017-06-01T14:28:03Z phoe_: pjb: got it.
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2017-06-01T14:28:52Z pjb: for one thing, you never want to do things from the cl-user package, since it's content is implementation defined.  For conforming results, you definitely want to work from your own packages where you've used explicitely what you want.  And similarly for the readtable…
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2017-06-01T14:30:08Z pjb: s/it's/its/
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2017-06-01T14:34:58Z mrottenkolber: by the way, what about (in-package foo), e.g. as opposed to (in-package :foo) or (in-package #:foo) ?
2017-06-01T14:35:18Z jackdaniel: (in-package foo) interns foo in the package file is loaded from
2017-06-01T14:35:18Z mrottenkolber: It seems to work, but I’ve never seen it
2017-06-01T14:35:22Z jackdaniel: it's not desired
2017-06-01T14:35:32Z jackdaniel: (in-package :foo) interns foo in the keyword package
2017-06-01T14:35:35Z beach: I think we have consensus, even though it might not look like it.  Bicyclidine, pjb, jackdaniel, and myself are essentially saying the same thing.
2017-06-01T14:35:38Z jackdaniel: (in-package #:foo) doesn't intern anything
2017-06-01T14:36:59Z jackdaniel: mrottenkolber: so while it's not very costful to intern dozen of symbols being package names randomly in packages, it's not pretty either to do that
2017-06-01T14:37:33Z beach: I.e., you can do advanced things if you don't prefix, but you must know what you are doing, and those advanced things should be called for (like in a situation of bootstrapping or other system-related programming).
2017-06-01T14:37:34Z beach: If you are just an application programmer, you would probably be more interested in preventing mistakes due to the CL package not being there when the code is processed.  So then you can prevent some "interesting" bugs by using the prefix.
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2017-06-01T14:40:41Z beach: In SICL, I use the CL: prefix partly to tell the person reading the code that I am not planning to play any package tricks in order to compile this code.
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2017-06-01T16:27:31Z GreySunshine: Hi, I've been searching for the architecture of SLIME, can someone pint me towards it?
2017-06-01T16:27:39Z GreySunshine: *point
2017-06-01T16:29:30Z jackdaniel: architecture? do you mean swank protocol?
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2017-06-01T17:25:26Z nyef: ... SLIME? Architecture? If there were an arch in SLIME, I wouldn't want to stand under it while the scaffolding was being removed.
2017-06-01T17:26:00Z Bicyclidine: that's really the kind of comment that bodes
2017-06-01T17:28:35Z pjb: Well slime is an emacs component.  THat should tell you everything about architecture…
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2017-06-01T17:52:46Z slyrus: oh joy: "couldn't delete "/root/quicklisp/caveman-local-projects/system-index.txt.bak" while closing #<SB-SYS:FD-STREAM for "file /root/quicklisp/caveman-local-projects/system-index.txt" {1001FC44A3}>:"
2017-06-01T17:53:01Z slyrus: hmm... I suppose I should take that to #sbcl
2017-06-01T17:54:35Z knusbaum: permissions problem?
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2017-06-01T17:56:57Z slyrus: would be an odd error for that, no?
2017-06-01T17:57:04Z slyrus: but, no, not as far as I can tell
2017-06-01T17:57:29Z slyrus: i would have expected the earlier rename to fail if it were a permission problem
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2017-06-01T17:59:27Z knusbaum: mmm. Is this in quicklisp code?
2017-06-01T18:02:31Z slyrus: yes
2017-06-01T18:03:00Z Xach: no further error, like permission denied or something?
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2017-06-01T18:03:29Z slyrus: No such file
2017-06-01T18:03:37Z slyrus: I'll paste a backtrace
2017-06-01T18:08:25Z Xach: slyrus: is it reproducible? maybe something outside the process nuked the temp file behind your back?
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2017-06-01T18:20:37Z slyrus: http://paste.lisp.org/display/347934
2017-06-01T18:20:44Z slyrus: is the backtrace I mentioned a few minutes ago
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2017-06-01T18:40:22Z Baggers: Xach: If I add a new asd to a project already in quicklisp will that system also be quickloadable? Do you prefer people to announce new systems on quicklisp-projects?
2017-06-01T18:41:23Z jackdaniel: Baggers: it's processed automatically, system will be automagically added
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2017-06-01T18:45:37Z Baggers: jackdaniel: thanks
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2017-06-01T20:11:23Z Baggers: Does anyone have any recommendations for a library providing a function like get-internal-real-time but with sub-millisecond accuracy? (internal-time-units-per-second is 1000 for me in sbcl)
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2017-06-01T20:16:29Z _death: Baggers: recently I put up https://github.com/death/monotonic-clock
2017-06-01T20:16:58Z _death: Baggers: it could use a windows implementation.. then I'd submit it to quicklisp
2017-06-01T20:18:04Z Baggers: _death: great! I'll check it out
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2017-06-01T20:46:07Z jackdaniel: Baggers: check out examples from cffi
2017-06-01T20:46:24Z jackdaniel: one of them is exactly that
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2017-06-01T20:48:52Z Baggers: jackdaniel: you're on fire today dude, thankyou :D
2017-06-01T20:49:13Z jackdaniel: sure, I'm fireing up (going sleep ;) good night
2017-06-01T20:49:20Z jackdaniel: firing°
2017-06-01T20:49:22Z Baggers: goodnight
2017-06-01T20:49:30Z jackdaniel: firing out°
2017-06-01T20:49:32Z jackdaniel: heh
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2017-06-01T23:40:38Z jasom: _death: what resolution do you need?  If ms level resolution is fine, then it's about 3 lines of cffi to get working on windows
2017-06-01T23:41:53Z jasom: _death: GetTickCount() just returns a 32-bit number of ms since the system has booted; QueryPerformanceCounter() is more useful but involves a struct in a system-header, so would need a bit more work
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2017-06-01T23:46:23Z jasom: _death: should monotonic-clock be appropriate for inter-thread timing comparisons?
2017-06-01T23:46:43Z jasom: _death: let me know and I can have a windows implementation in an hour
2017-06-01T23:50:30Z pjb: Baggers: check the com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.time package.
2017-06-01T23:51:26Z Baggers: thanks pjb, will do
2017-06-01T23:52:04Z jasom: _death: ooh, one hiccup; if you want better resolution than 1ms, monotonic-time-units-per-second cannot be a constant.
2017-06-01T23:53:04Z jasom: _death: the frequency is free to vary from windows versions and architectures for the higher resolution version.  If you can make it a function that would ease portability, and an inline function that
2017-06-01T23:53:18Z jasom: an inline function that returns a constant should be zero overhead still for the linux version.
2017-06-01T23:54:02Z pjb: jasom: constants aren't, variables won't.  It is obviously defined as a constant, on a given platform.  Of course, it varies from one platform to the other.