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2017-05-31T01:01:17Z daemoz: Morning
2017-05-31T01:02:07Z pjb: Bicyclidine: you keep the source of the functions around!
2017-05-31T01:04:37Z nyef: clhs get-setf-expansion
2017-05-31T01:04:37Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_get_se.htm
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2017-05-31T01:14:28Z nyef: Hrm. Now I remember why I so thoroughly dislike emacs indentation with backquote. It insists on indenting things incorrectly. /-:
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2017-05-31T03:29:49Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-05-31T03:31:05Z nyef: Hello beach.
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2017-05-31T03:39:20Z beach: nyef: Hey.  Haven't seen you for a while.  What's up?
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2017-05-31T03:41:13Z nyef: Returning to my roots, in a way. Currently hacking out a Z80 CPU simulator in Lisp, based on my existing C version.
2017-05-31T03:43:02Z beach: I remember the Z80.
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2017-05-31T04:48:20Z loke`: Does Cyrus Harmon hang out here?
2017-05-31T04:48:45Z loke`: Oh wait. That's slyrus isn't it?
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2017-05-31T04:56:52Z beach: Yes.
2017-05-31T04:57:49Z beach: loke`: You really need to go to Lisp conferences more often.  That way you would know all these people.
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2017-05-31T05:00:37Z loke`: beach: You just love rubbing that in, don't you? :-)
2017-05-31T05:00:46Z loke`: I really need to go to the next ELS.
2017-05-31T05:00:47Z beach: I do, yes. :)
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2017-05-31T10:04:45Z mrottenkolber: Hi pack :-) Could I solicit anybody to proof read a blog post of mine before I publish it? Its about distributed hash tables (kademlia), Lisp, and lots of improvisation
2017-05-31T10:05:27Z mrottenkolber: Oh and its fairly long (it copies a whole program and discusses every little piece)
2017-05-31T10:05:49Z mrottenkolber: But it has diagrams!
2017-05-31T10:06:45Z jackdaniel: Sure, send it to me, I'll look at it this evening. My English isn't perfect, but maybe I'll catch something.
2017-05-31T10:06:56Z jackdaniel: you have my email on query
2017-05-31T10:11:09Z mrottenkolber: Thanks!!!1 sent you a mail
2017-05-31T10:11:37Z jackdaniel: thanks, got it :)
2017-05-31T10:15:37Z phoe_: mrottenkolber: phoe@openmailbox.org
2017-05-31T10:15:51Z phoe_: I'll happily grab a bite
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2017-05-31T10:41:55Z KZiemian: hello
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2017-05-31T10:43:15Z KZiemian: phoe_: did you look at this CLUS problems, I can't solve it
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2017-05-31T10:55:22Z phoe_: KZiemian: I will look at them today
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2017-05-31T11:07:55Z KZiemian: phoe_: okej, should I learn some
2017-05-31T11:08:08Z KZiemian: phoe_: TeX in mean time?
2017-05-31T11:08:26Z KZiemian: phoe_: or read something specyfic about CL?
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2017-05-31T11:14:10Z phoe_: KZiemian: TeX is always worth the time to learn
2017-05-31T11:14:24Z phoe_: Because it's the language most scientific minds need to learn at one point or another
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2017-05-31T11:23:15Z KZiemian: say you
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2017-05-31T11:23:48Z phoe_: "say you"
2017-05-31T11:23:50Z phoe_: what?
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2017-05-31T11:26:39Z hajovonta: phoe: is there some easily consumable learning material for TeX?
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2017-05-31T11:28:25Z phoe_: hajovonta: googling "tex tutorial" gives me hundreds of results
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2017-05-31T12:02:12Z TMA: hajovonta: "texbook naruby" is a fine piece of reference I like. the problem is that it's written in Czech, so you might not find it as helpful
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2017-05-31T12:02:47Z TMA: hajovonta: other than that the TeXbook is quite fine.
2017-05-31T12:02:55Z JuanDaugherty used the knuth orig and latex handbook but
2017-05-31T12:03:12Z JuanDaugherty: i think the big thing is understanding the tex culture, ctan, etc
2017-05-31T12:03:33Z JuanDaugherty: stuff looks shabby broken and old but that's just the way it is
2017-05-31T12:04:43Z JuanDaugherty: also people looking for tex stuff to be handled according to modern coding standards are likely to be disappointed since as a lang even it's more like postscript
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2017-05-31T12:05:59Z JuanDaugherty: latex2html might be a good vehicle for learning too
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2017-05-31T12:08:04Z JuanDaugherty: also there are lisp pkgs but nothing like haddock iirc
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2017-05-31T12:18:29Z JuanDaugherty: also drawing and literate programming by gurari is fun but probably out of print
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2017-05-31T12:32:42Z jmasseo_: win 12
2017-05-31T12:32:52Z jmasseo_: whoops
2017-05-31T12:42:27Z phoe_: jmasseo_: Microsoft won't make it for another 5 years
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2017-05-31T12:51:21Z TMA: phoe_: would you back your statement with willingness to write 5 year long call options with $.01 strike?
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2017-05-31T13:16:28Z hajovonta: thanks everyone for the insightful answers
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2017-05-31T13:52:33Z jmasseo_: i would want a lot of premium for a 5 year msft call, just sayin'
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2017-05-31T13:58:30Z filwishe1: When working on a big project, is the normal workflow to keep reloading the projcet with (ql:quickload :my-local-projcet) when making changes?
2017-05-31T13:58:40Z filwishe1: ?
2017-05-31T13:59:01Z Xach: filwishe1: I do that once in a while, but usually I recompile individual toplevel things like functions
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2017-05-31T14:00:04Z Xach: filwishe1: in terms of frequency, i very often compile new/changed toplevel things, occasionally recompile files, and rarely recompile systems.
2017-05-31T14:00:47Z filwishe1: Recompiling some toplevel functions will update it in the correct package?
2017-05-31T14:01:10Z Xach: filwishe1: if the file starts with (in-package ...) it will. (almost all files should start that way.)
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2017-05-31T14:01:38Z filwishe1: Ah OK that's great
2017-05-31T14:01:59Z filwishe1: I thought it would compile it into the package the repl was in
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2017-05-31T14:02:27Z filwishe1: Thank you
2017-05-31T14:02:59Z Xach: No problem
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2017-05-31T14:26:22Z hajovonta: i wonder if xach has a notification set for mentioning quicklisp in the chat
2017-05-31T14:26:33Z hajovonta: :)
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2017-05-31T14:27:49Z jackdaniel: many people melded irc into their workspace, but it might be that he did set highlight on it
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2017-05-31T14:37:17Z nosefouratyou: I'm getting stuck on this issue: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/44287515/weird-error-when-compiling-common-lisp-code
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2017-05-31T14:39:03Z jackdaniel: did you try to add &key keyword?
2017-05-31T14:39:12Z otwieracz: nosefouratyou: (defmethod initialize-instance :after ((e prc) &rest initargs)
2017-05-31T14:39:15Z jackdaniel: initialize-instance takes more arguments and your lambda list is non-congruent
2017-05-31T14:39:21Z jackdaniel: defmethod initialize-instance :after ((e prc) &key)
2017-05-31T14:39:35Z jackdaniel: try that ↑
2017-05-31T14:39:41Z otwieracz: jackdaniel: but isn't &allow-other-keys „dirty”?
2017-05-31T14:39:47Z nosefouratyou: wait but why?
2017-05-31T14:39:50Z jackdaniel: I didn't add &allow-other-keys
2017-05-31T14:40:01Z jackdaniel: allow-other-keys is part of the initialize-instance generic function declaration
2017-05-31T14:40:02Z dlowe: nothing is dirty in CL :p
2017-05-31T14:40:06Z jackdaniel: dlowe: lol
2017-05-31T14:40:18Z otwieracz: jackdaniel: wouldn't you then have invalid keyword?
2017-05-31T14:40:25Z dlowe: except maybe symbol properties
2017-05-31T14:40:26Z nosefouratyou: thank you! that was indeed the issue
2017-05-31T14:40:28Z jackdaniel: otwieracz: no
2017-05-31T14:40:39Z jackdaniel: because you specify, that you have no keywords (explicitly)
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2017-05-31T14:40:44Z jackdaniel: that's all
2017-05-31T14:41:00Z jackdaniel: but other initialize-instance methods may have other key arguments
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2017-05-31T14:50:44Z otwieracz: hum
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2017-05-31T15:19:38Z Xach: hajovonta: yes
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2017-05-31T15:52:45Z capisce: what are some open source lisp projects with a highly idiomatic coding style? examples of good lisp code?
2017-05-31T15:53:25Z Xach: capisce: i like to study cl-ppcre code.
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2017-05-31T15:53:54Z _death: there are some books that use Common Lisp and have very good code
2017-05-31T15:54:36Z capisce: Xach: cool
2017-05-31T15:54:37Z _death: there is also http://norvig.com/luv-slides.ps which I recommend reading and re-reading every now and then
2017-05-31T15:56:34Z jackdaniel: yes, very fine read
2017-05-31T15:56:50Z capisce: _death: interesting :)
2017-05-31T15:57:09Z jackdaniel: "Don't believe everything we tell you. (Just most.)" :-)
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2017-05-31T16:08:57Z pjb: Well, I've found an evil bug in cl-ppcre (spend half a day on it!).  So I'm not sure it is to be commended…
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2017-05-31T16:09:33Z pjb: The best is to read multiple sources!
2017-05-31T16:09:36Z Bicyclidine: what was it?
2017-05-31T16:09:36Z pjb: (And PAIP).
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2017-05-31T16:09:51Z pjb: Bicyclidine: due basically to the fact that it declares optimization level inside the functions.
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2017-05-31T16:10:13Z pjb: with type declarations without checking the parameters…
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2017-05-31T16:10:43Z pjb: A lisp library that doesn't behave better than a C library is no good, IMO.
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2017-05-31T16:11:38Z Bicyclidine: so it was an internal bug, or you passed it something wrong and it died in a horrible way?
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2017-05-31T16:17:09Z beach: capisce: I am fairly proud of this one https://github.com/robert-strandh/Cluffer
2017-05-31T16:17:52Z beach: capisce: It comes with extensive tests, using my preferred testing technique, namely random tests.  And it comes with full documentation.
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2017-05-31T16:27:28Z nyef: beach: I seem to recall a recent reference to a style guide of your own somewhere?
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2017-05-31T16:29:39Z beach: Oh, I usually put a "Contributing to ???" in the documentation of some software.
2017-05-31T16:29:58Z beach: This was in the SICL documentation, I think, and it was shka who referred to it.
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2017-05-31T16:30:57Z beach: http://metamodular.com/sicl.pdf page 153
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2017-05-31T16:32:25Z nyef: Thank you.
2017-05-31T16:32:42Z beach: Pleasure.  I re-read it, and it's not very complete.
2017-05-31T16:33:03Z beach: I need to learn how to share chapters or sections between repositories.
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2017-05-31T16:40:36Z _death: I think CL is still at the stage where picking any random system from your quicklisp/software directory has high likelihood for code that's good for learning (even if incomplete)
2017-05-31T16:40:55Z Xach: ehhh....i'm not so sure.
2017-05-31T16:41:57Z _death: and the "older" systems like arnesi or kmrcl or cffi or alexandria are of course highly recommended
2017-05-31T16:42:41Z Xach: I think there is a high volume, but there is chaff and wheat, and it may be hard to tell which is which at first
2017-05-31T16:43:46Z _death: Xach: could be.. since I don't have all of the systems installed
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2017-05-31T16:44:36Z Xach: _death: here is something i see fairly often: someone gets excited about lisp, scratches their personal itch, then submits to quicklisp. it is their first-ever lisp project and with experience and hindsight they may change ideas and designs.
2017-05-31T16:44:54Z Xach: i do not judge projects on quality or usefulness so they all go in.
2017-05-31T16:45:15Z _death: in fact I seem to have only about 20% of them.. hmmmm
2017-05-31T16:46:14Z _death: Xach: yes, you're definitely in a better position to know :).. sometime I should download all of the dist and check all those new systems :)
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2017-05-31T16:47:36Z _death: but hey, mediocrity is good news for the popularity people :)
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2017-05-31T16:53:27Z _death: Xach: I wonder what statistics you keep on quicklisp projects.. for example simple stuff like the time a project got added could be useful.. I suppose you can derive that from git history
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2017-05-31T17:03:10Z nyef: Mmm. My first couple of CL projects (nevermore and an (unreleased?) 6502 simulator) are both horrible to my current sense of taste.
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2017-05-31T17:04:47Z _death: nyef: I remember that smalltalk parsing tutorial thingy.. too bad it was incomplete
2017-05-31T17:05:55Z nyef: ISTR that I did a couple of things in that sort of style.
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2017-05-31T17:14:06Z nyef re-reads http://www.lisphacker.com/codex/004-parsing-smalltalk.txt
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2017-05-31T17:14:40Z nyef: It's definitely putting across the interactive feel of development, while not geting bogged down in the details of how it's implemented in terms of editor integration.
2017-05-31T17:15:12Z nyef: But, yeah, also definitely incomplete.
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2017-05-31T17:26:05Z _death: I have many snippets that "follow along" some tutorials or papers.. they are a kind of stream-of-conciousness code.. sometimes the tutorial includes code in another language, so it's a bit like porting, though I tend to make things lispier as I go
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2017-05-31T17:27:08Z _death: for example http://paste.lisp.org/display/347878
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2017-05-31T18:16:43Z ecraven: hm.. is it baz or baaz?
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2017-05-31T18:17:06Z Bicyclidine: whatever you please
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2017-05-31T18:44:32Z borei: hi all !
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2017-05-31T18:45:30Z borei: very quick question - can somebody point me to documentation in regards # character, in the following usage (pishnew #P....)
2017-05-31T18:45:40Z borei: (pushnew ^^^
2017-05-31T18:45:47Z borei: can't find
2017-05-31T18:46:07Z beach: clhs #p
2017-05-31T18:46:07Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhn.htm
2017-05-31T18:47:36Z dlowe: #p"foo" makes a pathname
2017-05-31T18:48:12Z borei: thanks a lot !
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2017-05-31T18:51:19Z jackdaniel: borei: l1sp.org can search such constructs
2017-05-31T18:51:50Z Xach: well, #p is a challenge...
2017-05-31T18:51:54Z jackdaniel: note that second character in domain is a digit, not letter
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2017-05-31T19:01:09Z deba5e12: hey, does anyone know if SBCL supports threading on FreeBSD, yet? I remember this being a problem a couple of years ago, but haven't tried since.
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2017-05-31T19:04:59Z jackdaniel: according to https://svnweb.freebsd.org/ports/head/lang/sbcl/?view=log it doesn't
2017-05-31T19:05:10Z jackdaniel: (their build at least)
2017-05-31T19:05:23Z deba5e12: bummer
2017-05-31T19:05:25Z deba5e12: thanks
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2017-05-31T19:05:44Z jackdaniel: afair CCL does support threads there
2017-05-31T19:06:04Z jackdaniel: (ECL does too:)
2017-05-31T19:06:15Z deba5e12: okay, cool. that's good to know. i haven't really used CCL, yet, but am curious to check it out.
2017-05-31T19:06:20Z deba5e12: how's it compare to sbcl?
2017-05-31T19:06:45Z jackdaniel: they are both top notch quality implementations
2017-05-31T19:06:48Z Bicyclidine: compiler is faster, some backends seem less brittle, generated code isn't quite as good
2017-05-31T19:07:03Z jackdaniel: CCL uses less memory and compiles faster, while SBCL produces faster code
2017-05-31T19:07:09Z nyef: Hmm? I thought that SBCL had FreeBSD threading support?
2017-05-31T19:07:14Z deba5e12: ah, ok. thanks.
2017-05-31T19:07:22Z foom: pretty sure sbcl has code to support threading on freebsd. maybe it's broken?
2017-05-31T19:07:32Z jackdaniel: nyef: it may have and the port maintainer couldn't make it work
2017-05-31T19:07:33Z Bicyclidine: if it does, freebsd doesn't have sbcl with freebsd with threads support
2017-05-31T19:07:33Z nyef: That might be the case.
2017-05-31T19:07:42Z deba5e12: I think I heard something a while ago about there being a patch for that, but I can't remember where I read it. (which is why I asked here)
2017-05-31T19:07:56Z foom: you could try building it and see what happens
2017-05-31T19:08:04Z deba5e12: might give it a go.
2017-05-31T19:08:23Z deba5e12: i have a new machine arriving tonight or tomorrow, and am contemplating hopping from gentoo to freebsd.
2017-05-31T19:08:38Z jackdaniel: I'm off for today, good luck :)
2017-05-31T19:08:39Z nyef: Anyway, it's been years since I seriously ran FreeBSD, and I'm somewhat disinclined to try setting up a suitable VM or two at this point.
2017-05-31T19:08:43Z deba5e12: the sticking points usually come down to programming language support.
2017-05-31T19:09:00Z deba5e12: see you later, jackdaniel. and thanks.
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2017-05-31T19:11:26Z nyef: If there _are_ thread-specific FreeBSD problems, they're probably going to be in either TLS storage or thread post-mortem handling.
2017-05-31T19:11:37Z nyef: Umm... or synchronization, I guess.
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2017-05-31T19:18:50Z nyef: On the whole, though, the SBCL threading story should be a lot better than it was when I was doing threading support for new architectures... seven years ago?!?
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2017-05-31T19:34:08Z otjura: I moved part of big file into another file and declared its in-package to be the same as before, but now my program complains it can't find the class in it. hmm... (yes I checked I've saved the buffer)
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2017-05-31T19:34:58Z otjura: "There is no class named QL-DIST:RELEASE" yes there is but its in another file silly
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2017-05-31T19:36:59Z otjura: (in-package :ql-dist) (defclass release (preference-mixin)
2017-05-31T19:37:12Z otjura: shouldn't that just work?
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2017-05-31T19:43:26Z nyef: otjura: Did you mess something up in terms of dependency ordering, perhaps?
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2017-05-31T19:47:56Z otjura: nyef: well reordering .asd file and it loads again (wait it is order dependent??)
2017-05-31T19:49:31Z Bicyclidine: It is if you have :serial t
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2017-05-31T19:52:53Z otjura: Bicyclidine: yup. so that's what it means. any advantage?
2017-05-31T19:53:01Z otjura is working on someone elses code
2017-05-31T19:53:13Z Bicyclidine: what, any advantage to :serial?
2017-05-31T19:53:18Z otjura: yeah
2017-05-31T19:53:50Z Bicyclidine: it means you don't have to specify the dependencies of every file.
2017-05-31T19:53:59Z otjura: ooh
2017-05-31T19:54:31Z otjura: this channel is absolutely invaluable, thanks once again
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2017-05-31T19:55:16Z nyef: I tend to use package-inferred-system or whatever it's called. One package per file, defined at the top of the file, and the :USE and :IMPORT-FROM terms declare the required dependencies.
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2017-05-31T19:56:23Z otjura: I am migrating to something more like that
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2017-05-31T21:07:10Z daemoz: Morning, Lispers. Anything interesting happen lately?
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