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2017-05-30T02:28:58Z axion: Does anyone have any resources on how to use CI/git hooks/asdf test-op to run test suites on commit etc? This idea seems very interesting to me for a large math project of mine, but I have only briefly heard of it before.
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2017-05-30T05:43:07Z _death: https://github.com/luismbo/cl-travis
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2017-05-30T05:59:24Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-05-30T06:07:08Z krwq: morning beach
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2017-05-30T06:12:45Z impaktor: Where/how is $SBCL_HOME set? Mine is just NIL. (installed through Arch Linux package repository).
2017-05-30T06:13:23Z _death: do you use stumpwm?
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2017-05-30T06:22:49Z impaktor: _death: yes.
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2017-05-30T06:59:38Z _death: that is the culprit
2017-05-30T07:00:18Z impaktor: _death: care to elaborate? And how to diagnose and/or fix?
2017-05-30T07:03:22Z _death: I don't understand the issue they think they solve, but the other day they committed something that may "fix" your issue (though I've not tried it.. I think I just removed the putenv call) so you may want to try it
2017-05-30T07:03:24Z _death: https://github.com/stumpwm/stumpwm/commit/b740b04f8400e5aa42cff0086b659e8ea56d3420
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2017-05-30T08:11:31Z knobo: Is pop thread safe?
2017-05-30T08:12:20Z knobo: Can I do pop on a list from multiple threads, and al threads get a different item?
2017-05-30T08:12:38Z jackdaniel: it isn't thread safe
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2017-05-30T08:13:36Z knobo looking at sb-concurrency:queue
2017-05-30T08:14:52Z knobo: What does "An Optimistic Approach" mean?
2017-05-30T08:14:58Z lieven: since threads aren't mentioned in the standard, surely this is implementation specific?
2017-05-30T08:16:17Z knobo: or sb-ext:atomic-pop...
2017-05-30T08:16:40Z jackdaniel: lieven: in principle you are right, but in practice it costs too much to make pop atomic by default
2017-05-30T08:19:02Z lieven: ISTR a whole bunch of stuff in Lispworks is atomic by default
2017-05-30T08:19:07Z lieven: not sure pop is one of them
2017-05-30T08:19:52Z _death: knobo: it means the assumption that normally a resource is free for use and otherwise is the exceptional case
2017-05-30T08:20:29Z lieven: seems you're right, there is an atomic-pop
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2017-05-30T08:21:21Z pjb:  And what atomicity do you want in (pop (aref (give-me-some-vector foo) (incf (elt indices (incf j))) (random 3))) ?
2017-05-30T08:21:39Z pjb: s/vector/matrix/
2017-05-30T08:21:43Z lieven: good point
2017-05-30T08:22:31Z pjb: Perhaps you need one lock per array slot, or per indices, or for the whole expressions; the implementation cannot know: it depends on the semantics of your application.
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2017-05-30T08:32:39Z axion: _death: thanks. I am trying to use 'prove' to run tests on travis-ci, but for some reason failed tests are still exiting cleanly with status code 0 and even though the tests are shown as failed, travis reports everything as passed. anyone know what could be causing this?
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2017-05-30T09:14:58Z aerique: If I find an issue with a library (clsql in this case) loaded through Quicklisp it is not obvious to me from which repo Quicklisp got that library. How do I find that out?
2017-05-30T09:15:30Z beach: aerique: Ask Xach.
2017-05-30T09:17:08Z aerique: beach: Heh, thought I'd try here first but will do :-)
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2017-05-30T09:20:13Z aerique: ah: https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects/blob/master/projects/clsql/source.txt
2017-05-30T09:22:26Z phoe: knobo: implementation-defined
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2017-05-30T09:22:38Z phoe: use implementation-defined atomic-pop as suggested up there
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2017-05-30T11:05:17Z axion: How can I retrieve how an object is printed as a string? I wrote a custom print-unreadable-object form to print an object, and I want to write a test in my test suite to make sure it is exactly equivalent to a particular string. is this feasible?
2017-05-30T11:07:03Z loke`: axion: (princ-to-string OBJ)
2017-05-30T11:07:27Z axion: Thanks!
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2017-05-30T11:09:57Z axion: Hmm,. that doesn't work, but must be some bug in the prove testing library
2017-05-30T11:10:27Z axion: (PRINC-TO-STRING (VEC 1 2 3)) is expected to output "#<1.0 2.0 3.0>" (got "")
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2017-05-30T11:11:26Z loke`: axion: I'd need to see the code, but right now I have to leave the office.
2017-05-30T11:11:43Z axion: Thanks anyway
2017-05-30T11:12:01Z flip214: axion: please paste away...
2017-05-30T11:12:07Z phoe: axion: vectors are readable though
2017-05-30T11:12:11Z phoe: #(1.0 2.0 3.0)
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2017-05-30T11:12:36Z axion: phoe: this will be a multi-line matrix in a specific order not like the memory layout of the array
2017-05-30T11:12:46Z axion: the exact string is very important
2017-05-30T11:13:21Z phoe: axion: oh - so it's a CLOS object for you?
2017-05-30T11:13:49Z axion: No, it's an array
2017-05-30T11:13:56Z axion: well, a struct, with a type
2017-05-30T11:14:06Z phoe: Oh, a struct - good.
2017-05-30T11:14:11Z axion: as far as typep, it's an array though
2017-05-30T11:14:15Z phoe: then you can define PRINT-OBJECT for it.
2017-05-30T11:14:24Z axion: (simple-array single-float (16))
2017-05-30T11:14:48Z axion: no you cannot. this was discussed many times before.
2017-05-30T11:14:58Z phoe: wait.
2017-05-30T11:15:10Z phoe: so is it a struct, or is it an array?
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2017-05-30T11:16:05Z axion: The form is defined in a struct, but it is compiled to an array
2017-05-30T11:16:08Z axion: https://github.com/psilord/option-9/blob/master/pmat.lisp#L76-L77
2017-05-30T11:16:41Z phoe: I see.
2017-05-30T11:17:08Z phoe: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/22_acl.htm
2017-05-30T11:17:12Z phoe: "By default, a structure of type S is printed using #S syntax. This behavior can be customized by (...) or by writing a print-object method that is specialized for objects of type S."
2017-05-30T11:17:20Z phoe: so you can define PRINT-OBJECT for structures.
2017-05-30T11:17:37Z flip214: axion: :print-function, :print-object
2017-05-30T11:17:46Z axion: depending on the defstruct definition, you can or cannot
2017-05-30T11:17:47Z phoe: ...but wait, you get vectors in return
2017-05-30T11:17:48Z flip214: in the defstruct
2017-05-30T11:17:50Z phoe: God damn it
2017-05-30T11:18:25Z axion: Regardless, this issue is for retrieving the string in a test suite
2017-05-30T11:18:31Z phoe: flip214: yes, but the structures are compiled into vectors. Once they are created, Lisp does not see the instances of that structure as structs, but as vectors.
2017-05-30T11:19:47Z flip214: phoe: but  22.1.3.12 Printing Structures doesn't talk about the :type of structures... I read that as if it should work for any internal representation
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2017-05-30T11:20:18Z flip214: I understand the internal representation issue, though.
2017-05-30T11:20:19Z axion: It very well may. I will have to try. The point of this structure is to have native arrays with struct slot accessors
2017-05-30T11:20:45Z axion: Thanks! Though, how can I retrieve the printed representation of an arbitrary instance in my test suite?
2017-05-30T11:21:41Z flip214: perhaps the first slot of that "struct" can contain some gensym, which gets recogniced by some user-defined PRINT-OBJECT method or so?!
2017-05-30T11:22:12Z axion: and by the way, the struct slot accessors on the array compile with the same disassmebly, on at least sbcl. this is nice because this is an efficient math library and makes the code very concise and easy to understand
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2017-05-30T11:23:46Z phoe: flip214: it cannot contain gensyms if the array is specialized, like here - for single-floats.
2017-05-30T11:23:48Z flip214: axion: "the same" as with a normal struct? Why not use a normal struct then?
2017-05-30T11:24:07Z axion: no the same as a normal array
2017-05-30T11:24:11Z flip214: phoe: well, then just stuff some "special" single-float value in there... the NaN space is big enough, innit?
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2017-05-30T11:24:30Z flip214: axion: and with a normal defstruct it's worse?
2017-05-30T11:24:54Z flip214: I understand that a struct will need a bit more space... but I don't think there's a performance difference.
2017-05-30T11:25:19Z axion: much, on at least sbcl. with the type explicitly as a simple-array single-float 3, the assembly is much better
2017-05-30T11:25:20Z flip214: well, 16x4 byte is exactly a 64byte cacheline, though... you'd need 2 then
2017-05-30T11:25:51Z flip214: oh, it's double-float already...
2017-05-30T11:26:14Z axion: well yeah, that is my friend's library that i linked. i am doing a similar fashion with singles.
2017-05-30T11:26:23Z axion: i linked his because it is commented beter
2017-05-30T11:26:26Z axion: but same deal
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2017-05-30T11:27:51Z axion: i didn't really want to get into the why i did this thing again...it seems to be a monthly question from this channel. we have done extensive tests over the last 3 years regarding this. that's why :)
2017-05-30T11:27:54Z flip214: axion: and you're doing exactly a cacheline multiple, too?
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2017-05-30T11:30:07Z axion: you'll have to ask psilord on the low level specifics anyway. he is mostly just in #lispgames though
2017-05-30T11:30:47Z flip214: axion: no, I'm asking about _your_ (single-float) usecase.
2017-05-30T11:31:23Z axion: well he is the one that measured MINE.
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2017-05-30T12:07:13Z blank_: Is learning the keybinds and using emacs worth it for programming common lisp? I'm more familiar with vim, and use it for most text editing/programming...
2017-05-30T12:07:59Z jackdaniel: blank_: emacs has way better integration with CL than vim
2017-05-30T12:08:10Z jackdaniel: that said, VIM has SLIMV contrib
2017-05-30T12:08:15Z jackdaniel: s/VIM/vim/
2017-05-30T12:08:29Z jackdaniel: which brings SLIME IDE to vim
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2017-05-30T12:10:33Z blank_: Hmm seems like more work to get it working with vim though... for serious projects I guess it'd be better for emacs then...
2017-05-30T12:10:47Z blank_: Thanks.
2017-05-30T12:10:59Z axion: I used SLIMV for 7 years before moving to Emacs a couple years ago...SLIMV is very lacking in comparison to SLIME or Sly.
2017-05-30T12:11:04Z rgrau: you can try emacs+evil
2017-05-30T12:11:28Z rgrau: if vim keybindings is the "only" thing you want from vim
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2017-05-30T12:16:02Z blank_: Haha... yeah, evil looks interesting... I'll try emacs without it first, if it feels off I'll try it out. Thanks. :P
2017-05-30T12:18:02Z phoe: blank_: spacemacs
2017-05-30T12:18:06Z phoe: that's what I use and enjoy.
2017-05-30T12:18:50Z blank_: Woah, looks interesting... I'll check it out
2017-05-30T12:18:51Z phoe: it's an emacs distro built for vim users and not only - it's built around evil mode/leader key and has SLIME in its common-lisp layer.
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2017-05-30T12:19:42Z phoe: also they do that crazy thing where they have spacemacs running in your browser so you can try it out.
2017-05-30T12:22:24Z blank_: The online demo kinda laggy though... xD
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2017-05-30T12:23:37Z blank_: But it looks good, it has an easy install too, with package managers.
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2017-05-30T12:43:00Z drl: pjb, System "com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum" not found   [Condition of type QUICKLISP-CLIENT:SYSTEM-NOT-FOUND]
2017-05-30T12:43:29Z phoe: drl: cesarum was pulled from quicklisp.
2017-05-30T12:43:42Z phoe: pull it into local-projects from github.
2017-05-30T12:43:54Z phoe: AFAIK it stopped building at some point and pjb promised to fix it... someday.
2017-05-30T12:44:23Z drl: phoe, yes, I'm reminding him.
2017-05-30T12:45:32Z drl: phoe, where is it found on github?
2017-05-30T12:45:51Z axion: it's not
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2017-05-30T12:52:04Z drl: A week or two ago pjb referred me to a website that was supposed to have it, but it seems to have been removed from that website also.
2017-05-30T12:52:14Z paule32: pjb: *** - EVAL: variable RET has no value
2017-05-30T12:52:26Z axion: it's on gitlab
2017-05-30T12:52:48Z axion: a quick google found this https://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/tree/master/common-lisp/cesarum
2017-05-30T12:53:31Z drl: axion, thanks.
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2017-05-30T12:55:23Z phoe: paule32: this message has no meaning without context
2017-05-30T12:55:29Z phoe: show us the code that gives you this error
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2017-05-30T12:55:38Z phoe: otherwise no one will be able to help you.
2017-05-30T12:55:51Z paule32: RET (progn (write-string "Enter an integer: ") (force-output) (read)) RET  #.(progn (print 'hi) 42)  RET
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2017-05-30T12:56:19Z phoe: paule32: what is RET?
2017-05-30T12:56:53Z paule32: ? it was a suggestion by pjb
2017-05-30T12:57:01Z phoe: I don't know what the RET means.
2017-05-30T12:57:11Z phoe: Most likely it means hitting the "return" key on the keyboard.
2017-05-30T12:57:17Z _death: to press the RET key
2017-05-30T12:57:18Z phoe: "return", or "enter".
2017-05-30T12:57:45Z paule32: the question was: it is possible to inject lisp code at runtime
2017-05-30T12:59:02Z phoe: paule32: inject, what do you mean?
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2017-05-30T12:59:10Z paule32: 00:14:03 - pjb: paule32: type exactly, at a shell:  clisp -q -ansi -norc RET  (progn (write-string "Enter an integer: ") (force-output) (read)) RET  #.(progn (print 'hi) 42)  RET
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2017-05-30T13:00:02Z phoe: okay, this is some code, but what do you mean by "inject"?
2017-05-30T13:00:11Z paule32: execute
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2017-05-30T13:01:22Z phoe: to execute code at runtime? yes, it is
2017-05-30T13:01:37Z phoe: that's exactly what happens in your REPL every single time you run it
2017-05-30T13:02:03Z phoe: you type the code in, it is read, interpreted or compiled, and executed
2017-05-30T13:02:05Z paule32: but i get error
2017-05-30T13:02:24Z phoe: because RET does not mean, "type RET there"
2017-05-30T13:02:29Z phoe: it means to push the ENTER key.
2017-05-30T13:02:34Z drl: axion, on gitlab.com I find the asd file for cesarum, but not the lisp file.
2017-05-30T13:02:39Z paule32: ah
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2017-05-30T13:03:21Z paule32: then i have this in test.lisp:
2017-05-30T13:03:23Z paule32: #!/usr/local/bin/clisp
2017-05-30T13:03:23Z paule32: (progn (print 'hi) 42)
2017-05-30T13:03:23Z paule32: (progn (write-string "Enter integer: ") (force-output)(read))
2017-05-30T13:03:23Z paule32: (progn (print 'hi) 42)
2017-05-30T13:03:52Z paule32: clisp -q -ansi -norc test.lisp
2017-05-30T13:04:01Z paule32: HI Enter integer: 3
2017-05-30T13:04:01Z paule32: HI
2017-05-30T13:04:10Z phoe: yes, it seems to work
2017-05-30T13:04:12Z jackdaniel: paule32: please use paste.lisp.org
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2017-05-30T13:05:08Z axion: drl: That's because it is a system, not a file.
2017-05-30T13:05:40Z phoe: it consists of multiple .lisp files, as you can see in the ASD system definition.
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2017-05-30T13:06:58Z drl: OK, I've been away from lisp too long. Thanks.
2017-05-30T13:07:44Z phoe: drl: you basically just clone the whole cesarum into ~/quicklisp/local-projects
2017-05-30T13:08:09Z phoe: so the basic structure is ~/quicklisp/local-projects/foo/bar.asd
2017-05-30T13:08:23Z phoe: and then you quickload it
2017-05-30T13:08:37Z axion: or any other asdf registry location, and also assuming quicklisp was installed in ~/quicklisp
2017-05-30T13:08:53Z phoe: yep - but that's the defaults that I am speaking of right now
2017-05-30T13:09:04Z phoe: so the most probable location. ;)
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2017-05-30T13:23:45Z drl: [local-projects]% git clone https://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/tree/master/common-lisp/cesarum
2017-05-30T13:23:45Z drl: Cloning into 'cesarum'...
2017-05-30T13:23:46Z drl: fatal: repository 'https://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/tree/master/common-lisp/cesarum/' not found
2017-05-30T13:24:30Z drl: Did I type the right command?
2017-05-30T13:24:51Z jackdaniel: git clone https://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/com-informatimago
2017-05-30T13:24:56Z jackdaniel: you don't include internal path
2017-05-30T13:25:01Z jackdaniel: when you clone
2017-05-30T13:25:25Z jackdaniel: pjb keeps all his libraries in single repository as ecosystem - very sane choice imho
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2017-05-30T13:27:36Z drl: jackdaniel, thanks! That worked.
2017-05-30T13:27:47Z dlowe: not great from a sharing perspective, though
2017-05-30T13:28:05Z dlowe: you end up with the hungarian lisp situation
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2017-05-30T13:28:51Z phoe: why? com-informatimago-common-lisp-cesarum isn't that bad
2017-05-30T13:29:40Z jackdaniel: phoe: the point is, that having such ecosystem makes clients of your libraries being clients of your whole ecosystem
2017-05-30T13:29:43Z jackdaniel: due to inner-dependencies
2017-05-30T13:30:16Z jackdaniel: so such ecosystem may be pictured as one big meta-library
2017-05-30T13:30:26Z phoe: jackdaniel: yes, I know
2017-05-30T13:30:29Z phoe: just fooling around a bit
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2017-05-30T13:30:39Z hajovonta: hi
2017-05-30T13:30:42Z jackdaniel: o/
2017-05-30T13:30:43Z phoe: hey hajovonta
2017-05-30T13:30:55Z dlowe: probably not so bad as long as the ecosystem isn't pulling in private copies of public libaries
2017-05-30T13:31:01Z hajovonta: hi phoe
2017-05-30T13:31:58Z dlowe: speaking of hungarian lisp :D
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2017-05-30T13:33:32Z jackdaniel: heh
2017-05-30T13:40:18Z hajovonta: is there hungarian lisp?
2017-05-30T13:40:47Z jackdaniel: hajovonta: it was a library ecosystem
2017-05-30T13:40:53Z jackdaniel: try looking for hu.dwim in quicklisp
2017-05-30T13:41:10Z hajovonta: yes i know that
2017-05-30T13:41:26Z hajovonta: i've been talking to one of the guys a few years ago
2017-05-30T13:41:48Z hajovonta: are they still making stuff?
2017-05-30T13:42:27Z attila_lendvai: we are just delivering a project today
2017-05-30T13:42:49Z hajovonta: hello Attila :)
2017-05-30T13:42:51Z attila_lendvai: but it's more of a coincidence than a high-probability event... :)
2017-05-30T13:42:55Z attila_lendvai: hi
2017-05-30T13:42:59Z hajovonta: it's nice to hear
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2017-05-30T13:43:54Z attila_lendvai: jackdaniel: to be fair, not all hu.dwim stuff depends on the entire ecosystem. there are parts that only depend on stuff like alexadria
2017-05-30T13:45:19Z dlowe: I still appreciate you spinning off stefil
2017-05-30T13:45:30Z dlowe: which is by far my favorite testing library
2017-05-30T13:45:51Z attila_lendvai: "due to popular request..." :)
2017-05-30T13:47:24Z phoe: https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/6e6zwn/i_had_no_idea_common_lisp_had_actually_been_used/
2017-05-30T13:47:25Z attila_lendvai: I was seriously annoyed by the other test libs when it struck me that they are basically in my way with all that extra mumbo-jumbo... when it struck me that all I want is a few smarter asserts. that's how stefil was born.
2017-05-30T13:47:59Z jackdaniel: attila_lendvai: yes, and I'm not saying that it's a bad idea to have ecosystem, I have just answered questions about what hungarian lisp is :)
2017-05-30T13:48:54Z phoe: this is a surprise
2017-05-30T13:49:03Z phoe: I did not know Nintendo used Lisp
2017-05-30T13:49:22Z phoe: and gave it a five stars rating on a scale from Java to five
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2017-05-30T13:50:44Z attila_lendvai: fair enough. currently the way I deal with the multiple repo situation is to tag all the repos every once in a while... like for the release of a project that uses many of them. and there's the quicklisp branch in the git repos... yeah, somewhat messy. maybe I should convert everything to git, but I still prefer darcs
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2017-05-30T14:19:03Z thorondor[m]: I didn't know people still used darcs nowadays, and preferred it over git. interesting.
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2017-05-30T14:42:21Z Grue`: darcs had an amazing CLI, too bad it didnt catch on
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2017-05-30T14:46:02Z dlowe: git CLI is terrible, but the system is resilient against failure.
2017-05-30T14:46:43Z dlowe: that turned out to be more important than just about anything.  Also, I will forgive git everything for github and magit on emacs
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2017-05-30T14:47:56Z jackdaniel: D in GitHub stands for "Decentralized"
2017-05-30T14:48:56Z dlowe: A snarky non-criticism. It is what it is.
2017-05-30T14:48:56Z flip214: jackdaniel: «there is no #\d in "github"»           but you already expected that, right?
2017-05-30T14:49:18Z dlowe: I've seen a bug tracking system that used a separate git branch in the same repository.
2017-05-30T14:49:30Z dlowe: It's decentralized, but yech.
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2017-05-30T14:51:40Z dlowe: it was about as fun to use as the git CLI
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2017-05-30T14:52:07Z jackdaniel: I can figure
2017-05-30T14:53:41Z jackdaniel: dlowe: I have more problem with it being closed SaaS service really, I just find the "D" comment very funny :-)
2017-05-30T14:53:58Z dlowe: well, happily there's gitlab.
2017-05-30T14:54:28Z dlowe: But github has done the world a great service, despite being closed, so I'm grateful
2017-05-30T14:54:53Z jackdaniel: yes, I can agree with that statement
2017-05-30T14:55:07Z dlowe: Seems like you could make a gitlab-like-thing that stored all its metadata in the git repo so that it got replicated with the code.
2017-05-30T14:55:40Z jackdaniel: when I'm about to pick hosting and it's my call I go with gitlab.common-lisp.net now (if it is CL project)
2017-05-30T14:56:34Z dlowe: yeah, I probably will next time I start another public common lisp project.
2017-05-30T15:00:44Z pjb: flip214: there's no notion of internal representation in CL.  Forget this notion, it'll be better for your reasonning about CL programs.
2017-05-30T15:01:53Z pjb: if a constructor generated by defstruct creates a list or a vector, then it doesn't create an instance of a subclass of structure-object.  And therefore you cannot define a print-object method for them, since they're just lists or vectors…
2017-05-30T15:02:00Z flip214: pjb: excuse me? a defstruct with :type vector has a well-defined internal representation, does it not?
2017-05-30T15:02:14Z pjb: There's no notion of internal representation.
2017-05-30T15:02:35Z flip214: I guess we're talking past each other....
2017-05-30T15:02:43Z flip214: and sadly I've got to get out of the train in a minute.
2017-05-30T15:02:43Z pjb: When you call the constructor for such a "structure" you get a vector.  That's all.  A pure bona-fide vector.
2017-05-30T15:03:02Z flip214: more tomorrow, if you like.
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2017-05-30T15:03:04Z flip214: sorry.
2017-05-30T15:03:13Z pjb: (defstruct (point (:type vector)) x y) #| --> point |#  (type-of (make-point)) #| --> (simple-vector 2) |#
2017-05-30T15:03:24Z pjb: Good travel!
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2017-05-30T15:12:48Z pjb: paule32: if you insist on putting it in a script, you could use this form:  (with-input-from-string (in "#.(progn (print 'hi) 42)") (write-string "Enter an integer: ") (force-output) (read in))  ; but it would defeat the purpose of showing you how what kind of code injection is possible in lisp.
2017-05-30T15:13:59Z pjb: paule32: you definitely need to drop the scripts, and start using your Common Lisp implementation INTERACTIVELY.  And learn emacs and the emacs names for key presses!  I already wrote earlier, RET = press the RETURN key (ENTER, ⏎ or whatever).
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2017-05-30T16:31:35Z axion: Is there anything in the standard that would cause PRINC to print differently on some implementations?
2017-05-30T16:32:22Z _death: PRINC is just "print in a user-friendly way"
2017-05-30T16:33:05Z axion: Yeah apparently not portable
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2017-05-30T16:33:11Z beach: axion: Yes, there can be great variation.
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2017-05-30T16:33:25Z axion: I'll just use prin1 then
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2017-05-30T16:33:34Z beach: clhs print-unreadable-object
2017-05-30T16:33:35Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_pr_unr.htm
2017-05-30T16:34:43Z beach: axion: See the note: ;; Note that in this example, the precise form of the output ;; is implementation-dependent.
2017-05-30T16:35:33Z axion: Thanks
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2017-05-30T16:35:54Z beach: prin1 won't help.
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2017-05-30T16:37:12Z pjb: axion: why do you want to get different output in different implementations?
2017-05-30T16:37:26Z axion: I do not want to. I want to be portable
2017-05-30T16:37:47Z pjb: Then you don't want to print unreadably.
2017-05-30T16:38:06Z pjb: (Note that a lot of lisp objects cannot be printed readably anyways, eg. functions).
2017-05-30T16:38:18Z pjb: So first thing: (setf *print-readably* t)
2017-05-30T16:38:22Z axion: I'm attempting to read and match the aforementioned printed vector object representations with print-unreadable-object definitions across several implementations for a test suite.
2017-05-30T16:38:49Z axion: Using fukamachi's prove library's IS-PRINT
2017-05-30T16:39:21Z pjb: print-unreadable-object is a macro used when implementing print-object -like methods.  You don't have multiple definitions of it!  You only have the cl:print-unreadable-object definition.
2017-05-30T16:39:30Z axion: Right
2017-05-30T16:39:53Z axion: I have multiple of these for different dimension arrays
2017-05-30T16:39:56Z pjb: And since it's namedprint-UNREADABLE-object, you cannot READ those representations!  By purpose and by design!
2017-05-30T16:40:14Z pjb: What do you want to do? Print unreadably, or not?
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2017-05-30T16:41:23Z axion: What I am trying to do is write a test ensuring that an arbitrary matrix is printed using column-vector notation.
2017-05-30T16:41:39Z pjb: But readably or not?
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2017-05-30T16:42:04Z axion: It's not seen, so any way a test can perform that reliably.
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2017-05-30T16:43:17Z pjb: You're giving me more work than possibly necessary.  Since you don't answer: if you want to print it readably, then you just have to read it back and compare the objects.  If you want to print it non-readably, then you cannot use CL:READ, and instead you have to implement your own parser to parse the unreadable data, and validate it.
2017-05-30T16:44:02Z axion: Ok
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2017-05-30T16:45:54Z pjb: But even if you print non-readably, you may choose not to use print-unreadable-object, since this is designed to integrate with the standard I/O stuff, so that when you call CL:READ on that representation, you get an error.  But apart from the #< prefix, there are implementation dependent elements (identity, type representation), that as you said, you may want to avoid.    So your syntax may differ, not use #< (or still use it, bu
2017-05-30T16:45:54Z pjb: using print-unreadable-object), and still be unreadable by CL:READ.  In any case you need your own parser.
2017-05-30T16:45:58Z pjb: (to validate).
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2017-05-30T16:46:10Z pjb: It would be much simplier to just print it readably.
2017-05-30T16:46:55Z pjb: Note that in most cases, printing readably will involve a custom reader macro (implementing your custom parser). So since you have to implement this parser, you can as well make it printing readably and hook it into your own reader macro.
2017-05-30T16:46:59Z axion: Right, I am not using the identity or type.
2017-05-30T16:47:41Z axion: Ok thanks
2017-05-30T16:47:54Z pjb: It looks like in this case, you can get non-implementation specific output.
2017-05-30T16:48:04Z pjb: But since you want to parse it back, it would be preferable to avoid #<
2017-05-30T16:48:25Z pjb: axion:  you have a good example of that in gsharp.
2017-05-30T16:48:42Z pjb: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/gsharp/gsharp
2017-05-30T16:49:38Z pjb: in buffer.lisp
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2017-05-30T17:09:51Z libreman: Is the handling of nested labels within cl-cont a known bug? I can't find its bugtracker...
2017-05-30T17:12:40Z libreman: These are the results I'm getting which are obviously wrong: http://paste.lisp.org/display/347802
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2017-05-30T17:23:43Z pjb: libreman: yep, obvious bug.
2017-05-30T17:25:35Z libreman: It's not a really easy fix though. You would probably need to keep track of the scope. I'm optimizing the library a bit (by only rewriting if necessary) so I'll try to fix it.
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2017-05-30T19:43:25Z jasom: pjb: I would imagine that it will eventually be possible to print functions readably in clasp; making it possible to reproduce a function exactly is one of the benefits of first-class global environments.
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2017-05-30T20:01:45Z White_Flame slips a piece of paper to jasom, on which is written a single word:  "Closures"
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2017-05-30T20:12:12Z jasom: White_Flame: that doesn't prevent non-closure functions from being able to be readably printed; nor closures, in those cases for which the lexical environment still exists.
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2017-05-30T20:18:15Z White_Flame: yep, but not all cases are non-degenerate (generate?)
2017-05-30T20:21:56Z jasom: White_Flame: from my understanding it would be permissible for an implementation to print functions readably, excepting closures.
2017-05-30T20:25:44Z White_Flame: does "print readably" mean that if read, the result is the Same as that which was printed
2017-05-30T20:26:37Z White_Flame: I mean, a custom print-object could just output "3", which is certainly readable ;)
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2017-05-30T22:10:57Z jasom: White_Flame: I think similar, not same
2017-05-30T22:11:14Z jasom: White_Flame: otherwise strings couldn't be print readably, nor lists
2017-05-30T22:11:36Z jasom: "printing any object O1 produces a printed representation that, when seen by the Lisp reader while the standard readtable is in effect, will produce an object O2 that is similar to O1."
2017-05-30T22:12:00Z jasom: chls 3.2.4.2
2017-05-30T22:12:05Z jasom: clhs 3.2.4.2
2017-05-30T22:12:05Z specbot: Similarity of Literal Objects: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_bdb.htm
2017-05-30T22:12:42Z jasom: hmm, turns out functions are specifically excluded from being externalizable
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2017-05-30T22:13:01Z jasom: but "An implementation is permitted to extend the rules of similarity, so that other kinds of objects are externalizable objects for that implementation."
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2017-05-30T22:15:54Z Bicyclidine: similarity should be different from read/write rules
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2017-05-30T22:17:21Z Bicyclidine: but it isn't... huh
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2017-05-30T22:28:01Z pillton: Why the restriction on functions?
2017-05-30T22:28:35Z pillton: Oopps, let me read the conversation first.
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2017-05-30T22:40:19Z pillton: Even with first-class environments you still have the problem of environments being mutable.
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2017-05-30T22:43:12Z pjb: pillton: for functions, you would need: 1- to design an external format for instructions (this could be CL code, but you would need a decompiler). 2- to grab all the reference made by the function code (literals, other functions, etc) so that the saved function can be stand-alone.
2017-05-30T22:43:57Z pjb: this is the same problem with closures really. Notably in a closure you may have multiple functions, so saving one would require saving them all.  And saving two of them separately would require uniquifying them back when reading them!
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2017-05-30T22:59:24Z Bicyclidine: i mean... it's compile file. you probably already have an external format for code. (the rest is true tho)
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2017-05-30T23:02:14Z pjb: Bicyclidine: I mean a portable one!
2017-05-30T23:02:25Z pjb: remember, *print-readably*
2017-05-30T23:02:46Z pillton: I think it would be easier to make a lisp where environments are immutable.
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2017-05-30T23:04:20Z Bicyclidine: print readably doesn't have any requirements on how portable the result has to be, does it?
2017-05-30T23:04:29Z Bicyclidine: pillton: ? they are already? am i misunderstanding
2017-05-30T23:05:29Z pillton: (setf (fdefinition do-something) #'(lambda (...) ...)) should return two objects 1) the function and 2) the old environment.
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2017-05-30T23:05:54Z pjb: Bicyclidine: the lisp reader algorithm is entirely specified.
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2017-05-30T23:06:27Z pjb: You would of course have to add some specification for a reader macro or a syntax for those decompiled functions and closures…
2017-05-30T23:06:31Z Bicyclidine: well yeah but like random states
2017-05-30T23:06:53Z Bicyclidine: i guess it says random states have to work in only one implementation, so you could say functions have to work at least in one executable, or whatever
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2017-05-30T23:07:37Z pjb: In anycase, it's not useful and clearly beyond a language specification. If you need it,  you can very easily implement it yourself.  This is what is done eg. in Patchwork, where the patchwork files are lisp code.
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2017-05-30T23:09:48Z Bicyclidine: how is it easily done?
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2017-05-30T23:14:26Z malice: Hi, kinda strange question; I have a class, let's call it Model, which has different parameters (a and b). It also contains objects of some class (let's call that class Thing). I want to write a method which is parametrized on value of Thing and parameters of Model
2017-05-30T23:14:47Z malice: so it would look somewhat like (defmethod ((model Model) (thing Thing)) (+ (a model) (b model) (value hting)))
2017-05-30T23:15:09Z malice: Now, I said model contains these Things; right now I store them in extendable vector, if that's important.
2017-05-30T23:15:23Z malice: You can see that I have to pass both Model and Thing to the method
2017-05-30T23:15:53Z malice: Can I write this so that it would only take one argument, the Thing, and it would somehow know which Model does it belong to?
2017-05-30T23:16:33Z malice: (two different its' in previous line; write the (generic) function so that it takes one argument, Thing knows what it belongs to)
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2017-05-30T23:20:23Z Bicyclidine: you could write a regular function that calls the generic function.
2017-05-30T23:20:51Z Bicyclidine: wait, how would the thing know about the model?
2017-05-30T23:21:00Z malice: Yeah, that's what I'm talking about.
2017-05-30T23:21:25Z malice: I mean, what I'm asking for is a bit of magic
2017-05-30T23:21:35Z malice: And there might not be enough magic for this case.
2017-05-30T23:21:36Z Bicyclidine: You can't just have a thing know about everything that points to it.
2017-05-30T23:21:48Z Bicyclidine: unless you track it yourself, naturally.
2017-05-30T23:21:58Z malice: Right.
2017-05-30T23:23:04Z malice: But then each instance of Thing would have to know which Model it belogns to, which means a huge overall increase in memory usage, compared to just supplying the Model as an argument, right?
2017-05-30T23:23:33Z Bicyclidine: well if there's a lot of them, sure.
2017-05-30T23:23:45Z Bicyclidine: if you pass the model, the model can get at the things, so that's fine.
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2017-05-30T23:30:59Z malice: Yeah, but it would need the specific thing, so I'd need to supply both. Well, I think that I'll just go with standard route then.
2017-05-30T23:31:03Z malice: Thanks for help, Bicyclidine
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2017-05-30T23:32:07Z Bicyclidine: nooooo problem
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