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2017-05-27T00:25:12Z pookleblinky: aeth: There's a Tibetan language that has not changed its written medium through several vowel shifts over the last thousand years
2017-05-27T00:26:14Z pookleblinky: Compared to it, English has a reasonable spelling.
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2017-05-27T00:30:20Z |3b|: english has lots of perfectly reasonable spellings... problem is that they are all mixed together :p
2017-05-27T00:30:33Z whoman: translations of tibetan texts are some of the most <adjective> english i have ever had the pleasure to read in this whole life
2017-05-27T00:31:44Z |3b|: (and probably like japanese, also has mixed in a few copies of same reasonable spelling from different time periods)
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2017-05-27T02:02:15Z attila_lendvai: so, I've created one more zlib binding, but this one based on c2ffi: https://github.com/attila-lendvai/hu.dwim.zlib
2017-05-27T02:03:06Z attila_lendvai: with a random tester that seems to trigger zlib bugs when run in certain configurations... :/
2017-05-27T02:04:38Z akkad: nice.
2017-05-27T02:05:31Z attila_lendvai finally goes to sleep... o/
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2017-05-27T02:06:30Z akkad: later
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2017-05-27T03:02:40Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-05-27T03:03:52Z holycow: already?
2017-05-27T03:03:52Z minion: holycow, memo from jackdaniel: hey, could you drop me your email on query? thanks!
2017-05-27T03:03:53Z holycow: :)
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2017-05-27T03:30:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've been reading about the Nimble type inferencer for common lisp, does anyone know if the source code is available anywhere?
2017-05-27T03:32:36Z beach: I don't think it is.
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2017-05-27T03:35:47Z beach: But I think what we do in SICL/Cleavir is a better technique anyway.
2017-05-27T03:36:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: I should look at that
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2017-05-27T03:37:13Z beach: We work on the HIR (High-level Intermediate Representation) of the program, and we describe type inference as a data-flow problem.
2017-05-27T03:38:44Z beach: And we use Kildall's algorithm to traverse the instruction graph.
2017-05-27T03:39:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: Are you familiar with the paper "Type Systems as Macros"?
2017-05-27T03:39:46Z fiddlerwoaroof:  
2017-05-27T03:39:59Z beach: Doesn't ring a bell.
2017-05-27T03:40:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: They're working in Racket, but they essentially show how you can use a macroexpander to check types and then erase them
2017-05-27T03:40:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/stchang/pubs/ckg-popl2017.pdf
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2017-05-27T03:41:32Z beach: Interesting.
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2017-05-27T03:45:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm still a complete novice to these topics, but I have a friend who's working on a lisp with Haskell's type system implemented as a racket macro
2017-05-27T03:45:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: s/macro/language/
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2017-05-27T03:45:49Z beach: It does look like a nice technique for implementing typed embedded languages.
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2017-05-27T05:27:45Z holycow: .
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2017-05-27T06:37:53Z vtomole: How do i generate a random bit with the probability of getting a 0 being .40 and probability of getting a 1 being 0.60?
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2017-05-27T06:43:03Z beach: vtomole: (if (< (random 1d0) 0.4d0) 1 0)
2017-05-27T06:44:59Z vtomole: Thanks beach
2017-05-27T06:45:13Z beach: Sure.  But I reversed the probabilities.
2017-05-27T06:45:39Z beach: But you get the idea.
2017-05-27T06:45:46Z vtomole: Yes.
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2017-05-27T06:51:33Z vtomole: beach: How is Cluster?
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2017-05-27T08:08:25Z beach: vtomole: No recent progress.  I am too busy with my Earley-based lambda-list parser framework.
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2017-05-27T08:15:07Z jackdaniel:  /win 25
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2017-05-27T08:19:17Z beach: Hey jackdaniel!  Congratulations!
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2017-05-27T08:28:38Z shka_: sooo, what /win means?
2017-05-27T08:28:46Z shka_: beach: hello!
2017-05-27T08:29:22Z shka_: beach: i was reading SICL documentation
2017-05-27T08:29:43Z beach: What a surprise!  Anything I can help you with?
2017-05-27T08:30:02Z shka_: i learned quite a lot about lisp from cleavier documentation
2017-05-27T08:30:09Z shka_: thank you for putting this together
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2017-05-27T08:30:59Z beach: Sure.  I am glad it was helpful to you.  Anything in particular you found especially interesting?
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2017-05-27T08:32:01Z shka_: well, i was looking for information about first class envs, but couldn't find it
2017-05-27T08:32:21Z beach: Ah.  It is not in Cleavir, but in the SICL documentation.
2017-05-27T08:32:46Z shka_: which chapter?
2017-05-27T08:32:56Z paule32: hello
2017-05-27T08:33:18Z beach: shka_: There is also a paper in Papers/Global-environments
2017-05-27T08:33:29Z shka_: aaaah here it is :-)
2017-05-27T08:33:59Z shka_: great
2017-05-27T08:34:04Z shka_: thanks
2017-05-27T08:34:06Z paule32: why are binaries sooo bigggg? can i reduce the size by modular libs?
2017-05-27T08:34:15Z beach: shka_: Chapter 15 in the spec it looks like.
2017-05-27T08:34:26Z shka_: paule32: binaries of what?
2017-05-27T08:34:52Z paule32: clisp can produce bytecode, this can be converted to stub code of machine
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2017-05-27T08:35:28Z paule32: a simple (print "hello") takes about 70 mega bytes
2017-05-27T08:35:52Z shka_: paule32: is it executable?
2017-05-27T08:35:58Z paule32: yes
2017-05-27T08:36:06Z shka_: well, here is your answer
2017-05-27T08:36:20Z shka_: it includes lisp as well :-)
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2017-05-27T08:36:56Z paule32: my old c programs have 32 kilo bytes - by using so - shared object file
2017-05-27T08:36:57Z joga: (shka_, /win is short for /window in irssi, ie. switches the active channel/query window)
2017-05-27T08:37:17Z shka_: it is sort of archive that not only includes your code, but also whole clisp
2017-05-27T08:37:21Z shka_: joga: thanks
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2017-05-27T08:37:49Z paule32: clisp feature is to use packages?
2017-05-27T08:39:03Z shka_: not sure what clisp does there exactly but from what i see, it does more or less what i said
2017-05-27T08:39:16Z paule32: yes
2017-05-27T08:39:25Z paule32: that the problem
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2017-05-27T08:39:45Z paule32: i don't know other lispsers behavoir
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2017-05-27T08:39:59Z shka_: perhaps it is the problem, maybe you can ignore this issue
2017-05-27T08:40:20Z shka_: there are multiple ways to think about it
2017-05-27T08:40:51Z shka_: i personally use cl server side, so i almost never care about binary size
2017-05-27T08:41:19Z _death: if you care so much about hello world applications perhaps C is the answer indeed
2017-05-27T08:41:26Z paule32: i have server here, which shall serve / host lisp projects, it has 24 giga byte ram with 2x 2 terra bytes hard disk space, ok, but the stream /  makes the different
2017-05-27T08:41:28Z shka_: therefore, i have no idea how to reduce it
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2017-05-27T08:42:06Z paule32: shka_: dynamic linking
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2017-05-27T08:42:24Z paule32: there fore so/.dll are invented
2017-05-27T08:42:49Z paule32: to share/reduce memory
2017-05-27T08:42:59Z shka_: well, whatever, i'm not personally interested in that
2017-05-27T08:43:02Z shka_: but good luck
2017-05-27T08:44:05Z paule32: ok, that should not be hard, but i had one eye on it
2017-05-27T08:44:07Z beach: paule32: It seems that no free Common Lisp implementation is organized so as to allow most of the code to be in a shared dynamically-linked library.
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2017-05-27T08:44:29Z beach: paule32: I guess the developers have other priorities.
2017-05-27T08:44:41Z paule32: yes
2017-05-27T08:45:28Z paule32: i don't understand the m$ they server software have muchhhh resource barbeque
2017-05-27T08:46:10Z paule32: on furtune, that my computers run linux
2017-05-27T08:46:49Z paule32: ok, back to the red line, this is off topic
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2017-05-27T10:44:47Z smokeink_: how to download all quicklisp projects to local drive ?
2017-05-27T10:45:05Z paule32: wget ?
2017-05-27T10:47:32Z smokeink_: http://beta.quicklisp.org/archive/ <- access denied
2017-05-27T10:47:55Z smokeink_: can't view the listing with all files
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2017-05-27T11:04:33Z smokeink_: hmm (ql:system-apropos "") seems to return all the systems
2017-05-27T11:06:09Z dschoepe: smokeink_: (ql:system-list) will give you that as a normal list instead of just to stdout. you could map ql:quickload over that, I suppose
2017-05-27T11:07:04Z smokeink_: thanks !
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2017-05-27T12:32:38Z Xach: smokeink_: ql-dist::(map nil 'ensure-installed (provided-systems (dist "quicklisp")))
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2017-05-27T12:48:58Z smokeink_: Xach: thanks
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2017-05-27T13:39:50Z loke: Hi guys
2017-05-27T13:40:24Z loke: I just upgraded everything (Emacs+QL+SBCL) on a computer on which I haven't done any development in a while. Now, loading SLIME gives me an inetresting error:
2017-05-27T13:40:33Z loke: Error finding package for symbol "NOTIFY-DEPRECATED-FUNCTION":
2017-05-27T13:40:33Z loke:  The name "UIOP/VERSION" does not designate any package.
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2017-05-27T13:42:33Z loke: Any idea?
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2017-05-27T13:56:42Z loke: The problem was triggered by my having loaded the SLIME-ASDF module.
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2017-05-27T14:01:02Z phoe: loke:
2017-05-27T14:01:05Z phoe: (require 'uiop)?
2017-05-27T14:01:16Z phoe: (asdf:asdf-version)?
2017-05-27T14:01:20Z phoe: do you have ASDF loaded at all?
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2017-05-27T14:03:16Z loke: phoe: I had. It's just that the SLIME plugin SLIME-ASDF (I'm not even sure what it does or wny I installed it) doesn't work with newer UIOP
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2017-05-27T14:06:27Z phoe: loke: well, WTF.
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2017-05-27T14:06:50Z phoe: what is your slime/swank version? have you updated it as well?
2017-05-27T14:06:57Z phoe: (ql:quickload :quicklisp-slime-helper)?
2017-05-27T14:09:01Z loke: phoe: Yes. All updated
2017-05-27T14:09:20Z loke: phoe: Can you try to enable the SLIME-ASDF plugin and see if the same thing happens to you?
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2017-05-27T14:10:53Z phoe: loke: huh. I need to find out how to enable this thing in spacemacs...
2017-05-27T14:11:06Z phoe: slime gets autoloaded for me as a part of common-lisp spacemacs layer.
2017-05-27T14:11:28Z phoe: maybe someone with an explicit slime-setup will be able to help you better
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2017-05-27T14:11:38Z loke: you simply add the symbol slime-asdf to slime-contribs before starting slime
2017-05-27T14:11:58Z loke: why would you do that?
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2017-05-27T14:14:36Z phoe: oh, gimme a second then
2017-05-27T14:14:50Z beach: phoe: You might be interested in this issue on the CLOS MOP I did: https://github.com/robert-strandh/CLOS-MOP-HTML/issues/2
2017-05-27T14:15:09Z beach: [maybe I told you already]
2017-05-27T14:16:41Z phoe: loke: cannot reproduce
2017-05-27T14:16:47Z phoe: works for me on slime 2.19
2017-05-27T14:17:34Z phoe: beach: I will look at it - it seems that Hexstream did a pretty good job at his MOP reference, yes.
2017-05-27T14:17:41Z loke: phoe: Interesting
2017-05-27T14:17:44Z loke: Is your slime from QL?
2017-05-27T14:18:07Z beach: phoe: It does seem that way, yes.
2017-05-27T14:18:45Z phoe: loke: yes
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2017-05-27T14:21:37Z phoe: beach: I made a tiny comment. I hope it's constructive.
2017-05-27T14:22:09Z beach: phoe: Thanks.  Browsing the logs, I can see that he has done some related work in the past.  This one for instance: https://www.hexstreamsoft.com/articles/notes-tips-standard-common-lisp-symbols/cross-references/clhs/figures/
2017-05-27T14:22:48Z phoe: Yep.
2017-05-27T14:23:05Z phoe: A rather productive person.
2017-05-27T14:24:06Z beach: Also a bit controversial it seems.
2017-05-27T14:24:59Z phoe: That, too.
2017-05-27T14:25:38Z phoe: I chat with him once in a while and our opinions differ a lot sometimes. But we get along somehow.
2017-05-27T14:25:53Z beach: I understand.
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2017-05-27T14:56:06Z oystewh: so i have a tree of struct nodes with a list of node children in each node, and a parent pointer in each struct to its parent. when i enter 'root' at the repl (which is a variable pointing to the root node..) i get control stack exhausted
2017-05-27T14:56:23Z oystewh: any ideas on how to fix this?
2017-05-27T14:56:35Z beach: You need to program PRINT-OBJECT.
2017-05-27T14:56:50Z oystewh: thanks
2017-05-27T14:56:53Z phoe: oystewh: your repl attempts to print a circular dependency it seems
2017-05-27T14:57:05Z oystewh: yup that's what i figured
2017-05-27T14:57:06Z phoe: try binding *print-circle*
2017-05-27T14:57:11Z phoe: to T
2017-05-27T14:57:27Z beach: I have it bound like that in my .sbclrc
2017-05-27T14:57:40Z oystewh: that worked! thanks!
2017-05-27T14:59:52Z phoe: oystewh: no problem
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2017-05-27T15:26:50Z phoe: and if you want to have a printed representation that does not do circularity by default and does not depend on *print-circle* - do as beach said, define a method for PRINT-OBJECT.
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2017-05-27T17:22:24Z dtal: Is anyone here familiar with Yacas?
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2017-05-27T17:24:12Z dTal: For what seems to me like a super interesting exercise in language design, based entirely around Lispy principles, it doesn't seem to be very widely used or discussed
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2017-05-27T17:30:14Z pjb: At least not here, since we're rather monomaniatical about Common Lisp.  Try: ##lisp or #yacas?
2017-05-27T17:33:33Z dTal: Ah, fair enough. Although it looks like there was a succesful effort once upon a time to port Yacas to Common Lisp, sadly lost
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2017-05-27T17:34:08Z dTal: At least according to http://hackipedia.org/Languages,%20computer/Lisp/Lisp%20As%20An%20Implementation%20Language%20For%20Computer%20Algebra%20Systems,%20Yacas%20v1.0.55%20%28May%2020,%202003%29.pdf
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2017-05-27T18:41:29Z shrdlu68: Hello lispers!
2017-05-27T18:41:51Z shrdlu68: Been a bit busy lately, what's new?
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2017-05-27T18:52:58Z MONODA: anyone here use caveman to build a RESTful server? I'm trying to figure out how to send a body explaining the error when the client sends an invalid request
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2017-05-27T18:54:01Z MONODA: the provided `throw-code` just gives the typical explanation of the error code. it doesn't allow you to provide a body in the response
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2017-05-27T18:57:47Z JuanDaugherty: normally it would be conditional text in the body as a computed response
2017-05-27T18:58:44Z JuanDaugherty: i.e. that's what the whole page returned from the request is
2017-05-27T19:00:58Z JuanDaugherty: alternate body is a (seldom used) thing though, i think there is or used to be a tag for it
2017-05-27T19:01:45Z JuanDaugherty: and the only lisp REST pkg i've used is restas
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2017-05-27T19:19:07Z knobo: Euler's identity in lisp. (- (abs (expt (exp 1) (* #c(0 1) pi))) 1)
2017-05-27T19:19:45Z aeth: no
2017-05-27T19:20:02Z Bicyclidine: (exp (* #c(0 1) pi)) dog
2017-05-27T19:20:19Z knobo: ok.
2017-05-27T19:20:20Z aeth: you don't need to (expt (exp 1) foo) when you can just (exp foo)
2017-05-27T19:21:26Z aeth: I'm pretty sure it's (1+ (exp (* #c(0 1) pi)))
2017-05-27T19:21:40Z aeth: And due to floating point error, you won't get #C(0.0d0 0.0d0)
2017-05-27T19:21:41Z knobo: aeth: you are right.
2017-05-27T19:21:47Z aeth: I get #C(0.0d0 1.2246467991473532d-16)
2017-05-27T19:22:50Z Bicyclidine: i can't believe euler didn't invent floating point and account for this.
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2017-05-27T19:25:16Z aeth: Clearly, Euler is wrong because 1.2246467991473532d-16 is not 0d0
2017-05-27T19:25:35Z aeth: (= 1.2246467991473532d-16 0d0) => NIL ; EULER IS WRONG!
2017-05-27T19:26:00Z knobo: Bicyclidine: I've heard about "Schrödinger's cat". But you mentioned a dog. Does it have to do anyting about Euler?
2017-05-27T19:26:03Z aeth: I think we've just disproved trigonometry and/or e and/or i.
2017-05-27T19:26:07Z Bicyclidine: since complex arithmetic is available, you can say more generally that (approx= x (phase (exp (* x #(0 1)))))
2017-05-27T19:26:09Z knobo: :P
2017-05-27T19:27:12Z Bicyclidine: i think. might be a branch cut in there
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2017-05-27T20:25:49Z sabrac: Hello all
2017-05-27T20:25:54Z phoe: Hey sabrac
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2017-05-27T20:27:26Z sabrac: Is there a way to introspect your way from an asdf system to the related packages?
2017-05-27T20:27:49Z sabrac: Reading the source code makes it obvious, but I am trying to automate some analysis
2017-05-27T20:28:45Z Bicyclidine: dont't think so. in the other direction you'd have source locations i guess.
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2017-05-27T20:34:03Z sabrac: <Bicyclidine> I would have expected some asdf function to get me there, but apparently not.
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2017-05-27T20:59:13Z ebrasca: how to write documentation?
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2017-05-27T21:09:00Z sabrac: <ebrasca>In what sense?
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2017-05-27T21:10:51Z ebrasca: sabrac: How to document my lisp code. eg: https://github.com/ebrasca/turtle-graphics
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2017-05-27T21:20:34Z sabrac: <ebrasca>Are you asking for mechanics within the code, how to automatically write an api or thoughts on content?
2017-05-27T21:21:09Z sabrac: Your forward and jump functions are both documeted, so you could use a library like staple to generate documentation from the document strings .
2017-05-27T21:21:24Z sabrac: But if I look at (forward) and (jump), both functions are documented, but they are not clear.
2017-05-27T21:22:05Z ebrasca: sabrac: for me forward and jump are clear.
2017-05-27T21:22:06Z sabrac: The documentation for (forward) says ""Move turtle n units forward and draw"
2017-05-27T21:22:30Z sabrac: But the documentation for jump says ""Move turtle n units forward"
2017-05-27T21:22:57Z sabrac: I am wondering about the function names compared to the what they apparently do
2017-05-27T21:24:17Z ebrasca: sabrac: forward extrude , and jump only move
2017-05-27T21:25:53Z sabrac: BTW, staple's website is at https://github.com/Shinmera/staple. I found it easy to use.
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2017-05-27T21:32:30Z ebrasca: sabrac: Thanks you.
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2017-05-27T22:46:52Z blackwolf: anyone have a suggestion or recommendation for filling a large array of '(unsigned-byte 8) with random bytes?
2017-05-27T22:48:10Z blackwolf: want something more efficient than calling (random 256) severral million times.
2017-05-27T22:49:35Z Bicyclidine: you'd rather call (random 65536) and shift a few million times?
2017-05-27T22:52:37Z Bicyclidine: i think sbcl gets 32-bit words from mersenne, so you could get those and shift them in
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2017-05-27T22:58:01Z blackwolf: was thinking something along the lines of that, e.g. (random (expt 2 64)) ... would prefer something like memcpy rather than shift, maybe a solution involving ldb. that would require getting access to an integer as a block of bytes. perhaps cffi.
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2017-05-27T23:00:40Z shrdlu68: blackwolf: Why not read /dev/urandom?
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2017-05-27T23:01:25Z shrdlu68: Oops, meant for Bicyclidine ^
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2017-05-27T23:03:57Z blackwolf: /dev/urandom is an option too, thx
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