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2017-05-24T00:35:03Z mason: _death: People do that a lot.
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2017-05-24T01:49:51Z aeth: My only concern with utility libraries, that keeps me to just alexandria and uiop, is that they tend to (1) do too much and (2) be incompatible with alexandria (even uiop is)
2017-05-24T01:49:58Z aeth: s/concern/concerns/
2017-05-24T01:50:35Z aeth: Only a few try to not have any name conflicts with alexandria.
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2017-05-24T01:56:36Z irisl: Is lisp hard to learn
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2017-05-24T02:01:26Z Bike: nah
2017-05-24T02:01:52Z irisl: Takes time ?
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2017-05-24T02:02:26Z Bike: of course it does.
2017-05-24T02:04:01Z irisl: I want to learn, but I only have das raspberry pi 3
2017-05-24T02:08:54Z aeth: irisl: If you already know how to program, Lisp only having expressions (instead of expressions and statements) can be tricky
2017-05-24T02:09:06Z aeth: But Lisp syntax is actually simpler, just different
2017-05-24T02:09:15Z irisl: I do not know programme
2017-05-24T02:09:21Z irisl: programme first time
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2017-05-24T02:17:12Z irisl: It's kinda my first time programming so
2017-05-24T02:18:46Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-05-24T02:18:57Z irisl: Morning
2017-05-24T02:19:15Z beach: irisl: You need to find a good intro book.  For Common Lisp, the one that is typically recommended is:
2017-05-24T02:19:24Z beach: minion: Please tell irisl about gentle.
2017-05-24T02:19:24Z minion: irisl: look at gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/
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2017-05-24T02:21:55Z irisl: You guys are awesome.
2017-05-24T02:22:31Z beach: Thanks!  We know that, but it is good to be reminded sometimes. :)
2017-05-24T02:25:10Z beach: irisl: Seriously, there are some very smart and some very knowledgeable people hanging out here.  I very much enjoy discussing all kinds of problems of programming and software design with them, because the advice I am given is very often pertinent.
2017-05-24T02:25:58Z irisl: I really just want to learn this will be my first language
2017-05-24T02:26:21Z irisl: I noticed more channels are mean hearted
2017-05-24T02:28:44Z beach: irisl: This channel is not (as some people think) a "Lisp support channel".  It is a channel for mutual discussion by people who program in Common Lisp.  Newbie questions are tolerated, though.  But things can get hostile here as well, especially when newbies are given advice that they then reject.  But if you follow advice and behave normally, you should be fine.
2017-05-24T02:29:38Z irisl: Okay, I will do so.
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2017-05-24T02:33:23Z loke`: irisl: Good luck, and do try to push through to get over that first hump into “aha!” land. I'm currently trying to get my daughter to learn, and I can see it can be frustrating initially.
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2017-05-24T03:08:38Z irisl: Thank you loke, for the encouragement
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2017-05-24T03:52:34Z emaczen: hah that guy that was so mad last week that was obsessed with "defeating Bike" lol
2017-05-24T03:54:26Z Bike: little did they realize that i can only be killed by a sword forged from the four lost fragments of Izathitch
2017-05-24T03:55:13Z pillton: Oh really. Damn I missed it.
2017-05-24T03:56:01Z pillton: Oh I remember it.
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2017-05-24T04:10:54Z beach: That would have been John[Lisbeth], and I think he confused me and Bike.
2017-05-24T04:11:11Z emaczen: beach: that's what made it even more ridiculous haha
2017-05-24T04:11:31Z emaczen: Bike was like: What are you talking about?
2017-05-24T04:11:43Z beach: Yeah, for good reasons.
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2017-05-24T04:25:14Z cyberlard: > d2d4
2017-05-24T04:25:15Z cyberlard:     _______________
2017-05-24T04:25:17Z cyberlard:    | | | | | | | | |
2017-05-24T04:25:19Z cyberlard:    | | | | | | | | |
2017-05-24T04:25:21Z cyberlard:     ---------------
2017-05-24T04:25:23Z cyberlard:  8 |r|n|b|q|k|b|n|r|
2017-05-24T04:25:25Z cyberlard:  7 |p|p|p|p|p|p|p|p|
2017-05-24T04:25:27Z cyberlard:  6 |_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|
2017-05-24T04:25:29Z cyberlard:  5 |_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|
2017-05-24T04:25:31Z cyberlard:  4 |_|_|_|P|_|_|_|_|
2017-05-24T04:25:33Z cyberlard:  3 |_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|
2017-05-24T04:25:35Z cyberlard:  2 |P|P|P|_|P|P|P|P|
2017-05-24T04:25:37Z cyberlard:  1 |R|N|B|Q|K|B|N|R|
2017-05-24T04:25:39Z cyberlard:     ---------------
2017-05-24T04:25:41Z cyberlard:     a b c d e f g h
2017-05-24T04:25:43Z cyberlard:     ---------------
2017-05-24T04:25:45Z cyberlard:    | | | | | | | | |
2017-05-24T04:25:47Z cyberlard:    | | | | | | | | |
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2017-05-24T04:25:49Z cyberlard:     ---------------
2017-05-24T04:25:51Z cyberlard: sorry
2017-05-24T04:25:53Z cyberlard: I somehow switched rooms >_<
2017-05-24T04:26:25Z Bike: are you... playing chess on irc?
2017-05-24T04:28:01Z cyberlard: yes
2017-05-24T04:28:15Z cyberlard: it's in #reddit-cyberpunk-chess
2017-05-24T04:28:26Z cyberlard: (just me and another guy)
2017-05-24T04:28:36Z cyberlard: lol
2017-05-24T04:29:01Z cyberlard: I'm gonna write a bot to automate movement, but not in Lisp. :/
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2017-05-24T04:41:54Z jack_rabbit: hello
2017-05-24T04:57:49Z beach: Hello jack_rabbit.
2017-05-24T04:59:38Z jack_rabbit: I've been busy
2017-05-24T05:00:01Z beach: Is that good or bad?
2017-05-24T05:00:11Z jack_rabbit: both
2017-05-24T05:00:16Z jack_rabbit: no sleep.
2017-05-24T05:00:49Z beach: That's certainly not good.
2017-05-24T05:00:53Z jack_rabbit: however, I've made this: https://github.com/knusbaum/lisp_impl
2017-05-24T05:01:32Z beach: What is it?
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2017-05-24T05:01:58Z jack_rabbit: Which is the beginnings of a lisp implementation with a threaded vm, and gc
2017-05-24T05:02:24Z jack_rabbit: It understands lisp forms and can evaluate macros.
2017-05-24T05:02:36Z jack_rabbit: Check out sample.lisp for an idea.
2017-05-24T05:03:33Z jack_rabbit: sample.lisp runs fine in the lisp binary.
2017-05-24T05:03:37Z loke`: jack_rabbit: Cool. What are the specific features that made you implement it? (every implementation has something that makes it...hmm.. unique?)
2017-05-24T05:04:46Z jack_rabbit: loke`, I just had an idea suddenly. I finally knew how to build something like this, so I did.
2017-05-24T05:05:57Z jack_rabbit: The code really needs to be cleaned up. I just did a major code-writing session and committed all kinds of commented code. I'll clean it up tomorrow.
2017-05-24T05:06:11Z loke`: jack_rabbit: it compiles to some kind of bytecode, it seems?
2017-05-24T05:06:23Z jack_rabbit: Yeah.
2017-05-24T05:06:52Z loke`: The bytecode seems to be instances of struct binstr, which is instructions of a stack-based bachine?
2017-05-24T05:07:00Z jack_rabbit: Yep.
2017-05-24T05:07:51Z loke`: So when it comes to implementations, this would place it in the style of CLISP?
2017-05-24T05:08:35Z jack_rabbit: Possibly. I'm not familiar with CLISP.
2017-05-24T05:08:49Z jack_rabbit: The instr field is the address of code in a section of the vm proper. When instructions are finished, they jump to the next instr in the VM.
2017-05-24T05:09:15Z loke`: CLISP uses a portable bytecode with an runtime implemented in C.
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2017-05-24T05:09:28Z jack_rabbit: Then yes, sounds like it.
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2017-05-24T05:10:31Z loke`: Although your implementation doesn't seem to define an actual bytecode format. Rather, it's a list of malloced C structs. That means that the obvious FASL format (just dumping the structs to a file) would not be portable.
2017-05-24T05:10:58Z loke`: I honestly don't know what CLISP does in that respect :-)
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2017-05-24T05:11:23Z jack_rabbit: That's true, although my instructions themselves aren't malloc'd.
2017-05-24T05:12:03Z jack_rabbit: Rather a "compiled_chunk" is malloc'd and that includes an array of binstr
2017-05-24T05:12:31Z jack_rabbit: I mean to say, binstr's aren't allocated individually.
2017-05-24T05:14:47Z loke`: jack_rabbit: I wonder if something liek this could be used?
2017-05-24T05:14:48Z loke`: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Archive/Mozilla/Nanojit
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2017-05-24T05:17:04Z jack_rabbit: That would be cool. My ultimate goal is to compile to machine code.
2017-05-24T05:17:53Z jack_rabbit: But I'd rather use my own assembler, as imperfect as it is: https://github.com/knusbaum/assembler
2017-05-24T05:18:16Z jack_rabbit: It's only for x86 right now.
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2017-05-24T05:19:15Z Bike: no idea what this gc is doing, nope.
2017-05-24T05:19:38Z jack_rabbit: Bike, yeah, I really need to work on that.
2017-05-24T05:19:50Z jack_rabbit: It's hideous right now.
2017-05-24T05:20:33Z Bike: does it really just use malloc and free? i don't think malloc is really designed for lots of tiny objects, or something...
2017-05-24T05:20:56Z jack_rabbit: You're right.
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2017-05-24T05:21:39Z jack_rabbit: I'm going to build my own allocator for it. malloc was just for the interim
2017-05-24T05:23:09Z Bike: makes sense i guess.
2017-05-24T05:23:26Z jack_rabbit: It's basically a tri-color GC.
2017-05-24T05:23:58Z jack_rabbit: Mark everything white, then check the roots, mark them grey and put them in a queue.
2017-05-24T05:24:16Z Bike: i guessed that much at least
2017-05-24T05:24:34Z Bike: howd you make it thread safe
2017-05-24T05:24:51Z jack_rabbit: very carefully.
2017-05-24T05:25:13Z jack_rabbit: I can claim to be a bit clever here.
2017-05-24T05:25:55Z jack_rabbit: Basically, all the operations like macro expansion, compilation, etc. work within the VM itself.
2017-05-24T05:26:19Z jack_rabbit: So as long as I make sure all live objects are on the stack, I'm safe from the GC.
2017-05-24T05:26:43Z jack_rabbit: That and automatically marking all new objects blacke
2017-05-24T05:27:34Z jack_rabbit: There are probably still race conditions in it, but the major ones are gone.
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2017-05-24T05:30:28Z jack_rabbit: It's pretty fast, too. Without gc, it does (fib 40) about twice as fast as python. With gc, it's about a third slower.
2017-05-24T05:30:47Z jack_rabbit: But I've got some ideas for optimization.
2017-05-24T05:32:11Z Bike: shouldn't new objects be grey?
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2017-05-24T05:36:45Z jack_rabbit: Bike, Yeah, you're right.
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2017-05-24T05:38:15Z jack_rabbit: Alhough, given the current GC algorithm, I don't think it matters.
2017-05-24T05:38:47Z beach: There are different strategies for the color of newly allocated objects.
2017-05-24T05:39:11Z beach: And it depends on whether your GC is incremental or not.
2017-05-24T05:41:21Z jack_rabbit: hard to say. There's definitely synchronization of some kind necessary in any GC.
2017-05-24T05:42:14Z beach: Hmm.  Either you run the GC to completion once you started it, or else you only run it a little bit and resume the mutator(s).
2017-05-24T05:42:29Z beach: In the first case, it is not incremental.  In the second case it is.
2017-05-24T05:43:09Z jack_rabbit: Yeah, mine runs concurrently, but stops the main program at key points. I guess that's incremental.
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2017-05-24T05:51:39Z axion: What is an efficient way to interleave 2 sequences of the same length?
2017-05-24T05:52:21Z Bike: do you want a list or an array?
2017-05-24T05:52:46Z axion: I suppose in this case list, so it doesn't really have to be generic
2017-05-24T05:52:56Z axion: but: (interleave '(1 2 3) '(a b c)) => '(1 A 2 B 3 C)
2017-05-24T05:53:37Z Bike: (loop for x in list1 for y in list2 collect x collect y)
2017-05-24T05:54:22Z axion: Well, better than my appending method, thanks.
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2017-05-24T06:29:40Z impaktor: Trying to run sbcl (latest arch linux update), I get this error:
2017-05-24T06:29:40Z impaktor: fatal error encountered in SBCL pid 8528 (tid 0x7ffff7fccfc0):
2017-05-24T06:29:40Z impaktor: can't find core file at NIL/sbcl.core
2017-05-24T06:30:17Z impaktor: Any hints what could be wrong here?
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2017-05-24T06:31:14Z jdz: It looks like it has been compiled incorrectly.
2017-05-24T06:31:31Z jdz: Or installed/moved after compilation incorrectly.
2017-05-24T06:32:02Z jdz: impaktor: you should contact Arch SBCL package maintainer.
2017-05-24T06:34:31Z impaktor: Hmm, but it's usually my fault. When stuff breaks. And I think I have the same sbcl version on another computer that works fine.
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2017-05-24T06:41:40Z axion: The guy who packages SBCL for Arch Linux doesn't know what he's doing. I emailed him several times and just compile from source myself these days.
2017-05-24T06:42:44Z pookleblinky: sbcl has always been rather finicky for me. Oddly, I never had a problem with it on arch, only on debianish distros
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2017-05-24T06:45:46Z impaktor: Hmm, my build is from May 9, so I think it must be something strange I've done.
2017-05-24T06:46:48Z impaktor: ...lest others would have complained fairly promptly
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2017-05-24T06:49:22Z impaktor: Ah! Yesterday I told my zsh to not load the global /etc/zsh as that overrides my prompt with a retarded smiley face(!). In doing so, I wonder if this caused my $SBCL_HOME to becoming NIL (as it is now).
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2017-05-24T06:53:29Z loke` always compiles my oen SBCL's, and I never have a problem.
2017-05-24T06:54:10Z impaktor: Solved the problem, by adding in export SBC_LHOME=/usr/lib/sbcl.
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2017-05-24T06:54:38Z loke`: Still, always better to compile your own.
2017-05-24T06:54:52Z impaktor: Now I would be far more happy if I understood why that happens, and how it is interconnected with my disabling reading the global zsh configuration file in /etc/.
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2017-05-24T07:57:33Z beach: Significant progress: The lambda-list parser that I am working on, and that is based on the Earley parsing technique, seems to work for simple cases.  Ultimately, it will work on concrete syntax trees (CSTs), but at the moment, I am using ordinary Common Lisp lists.  I still have to design a technique for invoking it recursively when the lambda list allows nesting, such as the macro lambda list.
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2017-05-24T07:59:28Z emaczen: beach: what are you working on these days?
2017-05-24T08:00:30Z beach: A library that is meant to make it easier for a compiler or a text editor to keep track of source locations of Common Lisp code read from a file or an editor buffer.
2017-05-24T08:00:57Z emaczen: Does your library get used in SLIME?
2017-05-24T08:01:10Z beach: I seriously doubt that.
2017-05-24T08:01:57Z beach: I plan to use it in Second Climacs, but also in the Cleavir compiler framework.
2017-05-24T08:04:11Z beach: Mostly, the library is trivial, but parsing lambda lists is a bit harder, especially since I want client Common Lisp systems to be able to adapt the parser to their needs.  The standard specifically allows Common Lisp systems to add their own lambda-list keywords, and I have to take that into account.
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2017-05-24T08:05:43Z beach: The other part that is not trivial is the "intelligent macroexpander".  It attempts to "guess" the origin of expressions that occur in a macroexpansion.  But that one is already written, so I am working on the lambda-list parser now.
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2017-05-24T08:06:59Z phoe: beach: Congratulations!
2017-05-24T08:07:04Z beach: Thanks!
2017-05-24T08:07:59Z beach: Since I am on the subject, Second Climacs is already able to parse the contents of the buffer, using a modified version of the Common Lisp reader.  The next step is to "compile" top-level forms at typing speed, at least enough for the editor to be able to determine the role of each symbol.
2017-05-24T08:08:31Z beach: It can then do things like compute correct indentation (which Emacs/SLIME can not do), and highlight the same symbol differently according to its role.
2017-05-24T08:09:09Z emaczen: beach: So SLIME just uses hacks that work correctly the majority of the time?
2017-05-24T08:09:21Z beach: Exactly.
2017-05-24T08:09:32Z emaczen: how do you define "correct identation"?
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2017-05-24T08:09:55Z beach: For example, in the form (LET ((PROG1 ...)) ...) the symbol PROG1 does not refer to the Common Lisp operator.  It is just a lexical variable.
2017-05-24T08:10:47Z beach: emaczen: For example, if you type (let ((bla <newline>, Emacs will position the cursor under the `b' in bla, which is correct.
2017-05-24T08:10:55Z loke`: beach: There are some benefits to the prgamatic approach though:
2017-05-24T08:11:02Z emaczen: beach: Yeah, I just tried it in SLIME -- weird
2017-05-24T08:11:02Z loke`: (eval '(prog1 ...
2017-05-24T08:11:10Z beach: emaczen: But if you type (let ((prog1 <newline>, it will position it incorrectly.
2017-05-24T08:11:14Z loke`: beach: SLIME would indent that in the expected wya.
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2017-05-24T08:12:24Z beach: loke`: I am hoping to be able to do a lot more to help the programmer than what is possible with what you call the "pragmatic approach".
2017-05-24T08:13:10Z loke`: beach: I have no doubt. I'm just saying that a purely compiled solution will not be enough.
2017-05-24T08:13:42Z emaczen: beach: Wait. I see what is wrong indentation, but how do you define correct?
2017-05-24T08:14:04Z loke`: Your approach is obviously superior. It's jsut that some amount of guesswork still has to happen.
2017-05-24T08:14:11Z beach: emaczen: There should be no difference in indentation when you rename a lexical variable.
2017-05-24T08:14:27Z phoe: correct indentation: whatever slime does.
2017-05-24T08:14:29Z phoe hides
2017-05-24T08:14:41Z beach: emaczen: What is considered "correct" should of course be configurable.
2017-05-24T08:15:03Z phoe: I don't think it's codified anywhere though, I mean, in a readable format.
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2017-05-24T08:15:23Z White_Flame: then there's cases like embedded DSLs where we reuse symbols like CASE, but have different semantics where the 1st parameter isn't supposed to be specially indented.  But because it's CL:CASE, you really can't know that it's used for other purposes, except that it's quoted
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2017-05-24T08:16:00Z White_Flame: at some point, I'mma gonna get my AI stuff into there
2017-05-24T08:16:10Z White_Flame: computers should understand code, not just apply rules
2017-05-24T08:16:17Z beach: loke`: Nothing is ever "enough" with your requirements.  I am happy if I can do something significantly better than what we are currently able to do.
2017-05-24T08:16:21Z emaczen: beach: I wrote a quick note-taking program which indents based on left and right paren counts -- basically indent for each new level in the tree
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2017-05-24T08:17:57Z emaczen: but that is not how SLIME does it, and I don't think I've ever seen CL code that looks like that
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2017-05-24T08:19:11Z splittist: being able to, for example, cleanly rename each use of the variable - but not symbol - LIST in a form/region would be a boon.
2017-05-24T08:19:19Z beach: emaczen: That's a good start, but you need to know the role of each symbol to do it better.  Even Emacs/SLIME can do some of that, such as indenting the body of a macro call differently from other macro parameters.
2017-05-24T08:20:02Z beach: splittist: That's one of the many things that I hope will be possible.
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2017-05-24T08:20:36Z beach: splittist: As soon as I convert the top-level form to HIR, I will know which occurrences refer to the same variable.
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2017-05-24T08:34:03Z loke`: beach: I didn't realyl give “requirements” per se. I was merely pointing out that there are cases where heuristics might be necessary. However, in most cases that's not really the case. I actually agree with you in that your approach is better.
2017-05-24T08:34:31Z beach: loke`: Yes, I understand.
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2017-05-24T08:41:49Z tapioco: hi
2017-05-24T08:42:01Z beach: Hello tapioco.
2017-05-24T08:42:05Z tapioco: how can I get the sizeof a foreign struct?
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2017-05-24T08:44:17Z flip214: ask it nicely
2017-05-24T08:44:48Z phoe: tapioco: https://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/html_node/foreign_002dtype_002dsize.html#foreign_002dtype_002dsize ?
2017-05-24T08:44:52Z White_Flame: I'm no FFI expert, but that would be a property of the type, not that of an instance
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2017-05-24T08:45:14Z tapioco: flip214: sorry, you're right!
2017-05-24T08:45:36Z tapioco: flip214: I'm posterdati, your old friend! :)
2017-05-24T08:45:41Z tapioco: flip214: lol
2017-05-24T08:45:48Z tapioco: please help, how can I get the sizeof a foreign struct?
2017-05-24T08:45:52Z tapioco: phoe: thanks!
2017-05-24T08:45:56Z flip214: yeah, I watched the what's-your-name game yesterday.
2017-05-24T08:46:09Z phoe: wait, there was a game yesterday?
2017-05-24T08:46:21Z White_Flame: I don't pay much attention to sports
2017-05-24T08:46:26Z phoe: geez
2017-05-24T08:46:31Z phoe goes to #lispcafe
2017-05-24T08:46:37Z tapioco: flip214: I'm on another computer far away from my
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2017-05-24T08:52:03Z tapioco: usual one!
2017-05-24T08:55:11Z phoe puts tapioco in a closure
2017-05-24T08:55:31Z tapioco: open a window for me then
2017-05-24T08:55:56Z flip214: xterm, firefox, or xeyes?
2017-05-24T08:57:57Z tapioco: xeyes
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2017-05-24T09:04:12Z tapioco: phoe: does not work, cannot take the dimension of the type itself
2017-05-24T09:04:46Z flip214: tapioco: to use the foreign type, you need to have a definition of its contents, right?
2017-05-24T09:04:57Z flip214: and part of the meta-data of the type would be the size.
2017-05-24T09:05:12Z flip214: if you can only deal with it like with a (void*), then you're missing that information
2017-05-24T09:05:21Z flip214: and can't allocate for the foreign function
2017-05-24T09:05:43Z tapioco: I'd like to have something like sizeof(struct my-struct)
2017-05-24T09:07:31Z flip214: how do you get my-struct? Import from a C header file?
2017-05-24T09:09:58Z tapioco: I did a defcstruct
2017-05-24T09:11:04Z phoe: tapioco: weird
2017-05-24T09:11:11Z phoe: the example uses defcstruct as well
2017-05-24T09:11:25Z tapioco: yes
2017-05-24T09:11:29Z tapioco: why weird?
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2017-05-24T09:11:36Z phoe: because it works in the example
2017-05-24T09:11:41Z phoe: and seems not to work for you
2017-05-24T09:11:45Z flip214: tapioco: foreign-alloc only needs the type
2017-05-24T09:11:48Z phoe: what is the difference?
2017-05-24T09:11:49Z flip214: http://ftp.stu.edu.tw/FreeBSD/distfiles/cffi/0.14.0/cffi-manual.html#Allocating-Foreign-Memory
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2017-05-24T09:34:33Z tapioco: phoe: foreign-type-size could not be used on defcstruct objects
2017-05-24T09:35:59Z tapioco: ok
2017-05-24T09:36:03Z tapioco: I did an error
2017-05-24T09:36:36Z phoe: > foreign-type-size could not be used on defcstruct objects
2017-05-24T09:36:54Z phoe: but this example does that
2017-05-24T09:36:56Z tapioco: (cffi:foreign-alloc '(:struct spi::spi-ioc-transfer))
2017-05-24T09:37:14Z tapioco: or in that example
2017-05-24T09:37:23Z phoe: (foreign-type-size '(:struct spi::spi-ioc-transfer))
2017-05-24T09:37:27Z tapioco: (cffi:foreign-alloc '(:struct person))
2017-05-24T09:38:04Z tapioco: sorry
2017-05-24T09:38:09Z tapioco: pasted the worng thing
2017-05-24T09:38:11Z tapioco: :)
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2017-05-24T09:40:51Z tapioco: (cffi:foreign-type-size '(:struct person))
2017-05-24T09:40:58Z tapioco: which is the wrong size
2017-05-24T09:41:43Z flip214: what do you expect, and what do you get
2017-05-24T09:41:45Z flip214: ?
2017-05-24T09:42:18Z tapioco: from my struct I expected 248
2017-05-24T09:42:22Z tapioco: I've got 32
2017-05-24T09:42:36Z tapioco: (cffi:defcstruct (spi-ioc-transfer :class c-spi-ioc-transfer)
2017-05-24T09:42:36Z tapioco:   (tx-buf :uint64)
2017-05-24T09:42:36Z tapioco:   (rx-buf :uint64)
2017-05-24T09:42:36Z tapioco:   (len :uint32)
2017-05-24T09:42:36Z tapioco:   (speed-hz :uint32)
2017-05-24T09:42:36Z tapioco:   (delay-usecs :uint16)
2017-05-24T09:42:36Z tapioco:   (bits-per-word :uint8)
2017-05-24T09:42:37Z tapioco:   (cs-change :uint8)
2017-05-24T09:42:37Z tapioco:   (tx-nbits :uint8)
2017-05-24T09:42:38Z tapioco:   (rx-nbits :uint8)
2017-05-24T09:42:38Z tapioco:   (pad :uint16))
2017-05-24T09:43:17Z phoe: tapioco: pastebin please
2017-05-24T09:44:03Z tapioco: http://paste.lisp.org/display/347399
2017-05-24T09:44:23Z tapioco: this is the c struct
2017-05-24T09:44:42Z tapioco: how could it be 32?
2017-05-24T09:45:33Z _death: tapioco: check the name of the struct that you're passing
2017-05-24T09:45:40Z tapioco: (cffi:foreign-type-size '(:struct spi::spi-ioc-transfer))
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2017-05-24T09:47:12Z otwieracz: GRC> (format nil "~:{~A ~A~^,~}" '((a 1) (b 2)))
2017-05-24T09:47:12Z otwieracz: "A 1B 2"
2017-05-24T09:47:21Z otwieracz: Why comma is not being added?
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2017-05-24T09:48:58Z tapioco: _death: unrelated, there are no other names to use
2017-05-24T09:49:41Z otwieracz: OK, I've changed to ~{~{~A ~A~}~^,~}
2017-05-24T09:49:45Z otwieracz: and it works
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2017-05-24T09:53:05Z _death: tapioco: for the struct you pasted you should get 32, supposing given alignment of 1
2017-05-24T09:53:24Z tapioco: which is wrong
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2017-05-24T09:55:41Z _death: why is it wrong?
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2017-05-24T09:56:44Z tapioco: shouldn't it be 256?
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2017-05-24T09:57:49Z phoe: are you counting bytes or words?
2017-05-24T09:57:50Z _death: what platform are you on
2017-05-24T09:59:08Z _death: tapioco: there is a note giving the alignment rules in cffi's types.lisp (search for "structure alignment")
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2017-05-24T10:00:30Z tapioco: _death linux for x86-64 and arm64
2017-05-24T10:01:12Z _death: tapioco: so, you should figure out why you expect it to be 248 or 256 but not 32
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2017-05-24T10:04:14Z tapioco: _death: anyway sizeof(struct spi_ioc_transfer) is 32!
2017-05-24T10:04:57Z beach: Remind me why we are programming in C rather than in Common Lisp.
2017-05-24T10:05:37Z _death: tapioco: I suspect you thought sizeof returns the size in bits.. it does not
2017-05-24T10:05:54Z tapioco: bits?
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2017-05-24T10:08:06Z _death: yeah, those pesky yes/no, on/off, here/there, none/some, discretely dichotomizing kind of things
2017-05-24T10:11:07Z _death: :uint8 for example, means 8 bits, what we call one octet, on your chosen platform, one byte.. sizeof returns the size in those units
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2017-05-24T10:47:36Z pjb: tapioco: the pad is bad; it should be defined in terms of uint8. Otherwise you may have additionnal underlying alignment.
2017-05-24T10:49:45Z pillton: Has anyone seen any implementations of destructuring when the lambda list isn't known until run-time?
2017-05-24T10:50:06Z pjb: pillton: it's called pattern matching.
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2017-05-24T10:50:31Z pjb: You get a list of binding at run-time. You cannot bind lexical variables, since they are known at compilation-time, not at run-time.
2017-05-24T10:51:15Z pillton: I thought with pattern matching that you know the patterns to match against.
2017-05-24T10:51:32Z _death: only if you want it to be efficient :)
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2017-05-24T10:56:05Z pillton: I have written tree based pattern matchers. I don't need to discriminate between patterns.
2017-05-24T10:57:30Z pillton: I'll go with my initial design then.
2017-05-24T10:57:33Z pillton: Thanks.
2017-05-24T10:58:12Z DataLinkDroid: Does anyone know if Peter Herth's LTk is still being developed?
2017-05-24T10:58:26Z DataLinkDroid: The website looks like it was last updated six years ago.
2017-05-24T10:59:44Z edgar-rft: DataLinkDroid: I know that Peter Herth still answers questions on the mailing list, so at least it's not completely dead.
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2017-05-24T11:00:32Z pillton: What is wrong with the website?
2017-05-24T11:01:53Z DataLinkDroid: pillton: No updates in six years for a system that needs to be updated may mean that it is effectively dead, or looking for someone with sufficient interest to take it on...
2017-05-24T11:02:18Z pillton: The website or the code?
2017-05-24T11:02:29Z DataLinkDroid: I'll have a look at the mailing list to see what the activity is like.
2017-05-24T11:02:34Z DataLinkDroid: The code needs updating.
2017-05-24T11:03:28Z edgar-rft: DataLinkDroid: the mailing list activity is *very* low (few mails per year)
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2017-05-24T11:10:56Z tapioco: pjb: anyway it is 32 for that structure, ok it is aligned as the gnu c compiler
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2017-05-24T11:13:15Z DataLinkDroid: edgar-rft: Yes, you're right. Very low volume indeed. I may have missed something, but the latest response I could see from Peter himself was back in the middle of last year.
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2017-05-24T11:13:41Z DataLinkDroid: I guess there is some sort of activity still, but to me at least, it seems quite moribund.
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2017-05-24T11:24:51Z p_l: huh, appears JPL is using Lisp these days, at least for some work
2017-05-24T11:25:29Z shka: ktoś pamięta która funkcja z c2mop służyła do dawania specjalizacji generyka?
2017-05-24T11:25:39Z p_l: shka: english here ;)
2017-05-24T11:25:47Z shka: uh, sorry
2017-05-24T11:26:42Z shka: i was trying to find that one function used to add new method to GF in c2mop
2017-05-24T11:27:04Z shka: can anybody tell me what was the name?
2017-05-24T11:27:51Z shka: perhaps add-method
2017-05-24T11:28:05Z phoe: mop add-method
2017-05-24T11:28:06Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/add-method.html
2017-05-24T11:28:10Z phoe: shka: ^?
2017-05-24T11:28:23Z shka: phoe: yeah, i think this one
2017-05-24T11:41:09Z edgar-rft: DataLinkDroid: I think the main problem is that Tk (the GUI part of Tcl/Tk) may be okay for very simple GUIs, but as soon as it gets a bit more complex Tk sucks terribly. Also Tk on Linux in 2017 still looks like sh*t. It's not so much LTK's fault.
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2017-05-24T12:48:45Z epipping: emaczen: about deploying standalone lisp apps... if you're using asdf to build your application, you can use asdf's ":build-operation program-op". https://github.com/epipping/cl-echo is a sample project that shows how.
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2017-05-24T12:50:25Z pjb: p_l: JPL doesn't use programming languages. JPL hires researchers and technicians.
2017-05-24T12:51:55Z p_l: pjb: there are sometimes pushes regarding what something should be done in, though. That said, after reading in depth, it was continuation of old CL planning software
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2017-05-24T12:52:55Z pjb: Yes, people if left at their own devices will introduce any kind of programming languages and toys to have fun with, instead of working.
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2017-05-24T13:06:03Z dlowe slowly switches to another emacs buffer.
2017-05-24T13:06:36Z dlowe: that? oh, it's nothing really.  Just some ideas, you know.
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2017-05-24T13:09:02Z _death: it's just the voices in my machine's head
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2017-05-24T13:57:40Z zulu_inuoe: Anyone know an way to get slime-compile-file to spit FASL's to the same place ASDF does? Is there some config option I'm not seeing?
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2017-05-24T14:03:27Z shka: uhm
2017-05-24T14:08:50Z shka: so
2017-05-24T14:09:25Z shka: how can i manipulate initargs list when initializing slot definition in closer2mop?
2017-05-24T14:10:13Z shka: i need this, beceause i want to use two different slot definition classes, with separate options in one class
2017-05-24T14:10:36Z shka: but now i'm trying to initiliaze something that is not in one slot definition
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2017-05-24T14:13:17Z shka: well, i will just use around method
2017-05-24T14:13:21Z shka: that should work
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2017-05-24T14:25:07Z jdz: zulu_inuoe: how would Slime know what ASDF system the file belongs to?
2017-05-24T14:25:56Z jdz: I don't think anybody has taught Slime that.
2017-05-24T14:26:50Z jackdaniel: slime is also meant for interaction with lisp image and buffers, it doesn't know much (anything?) about asdf
2017-05-24T14:27:16Z jackdaniel: maybe except C-c C-k on .asd file, that it should use load-asd for that
2017-05-24T14:28:01Z phoe: I bet that some sort of slime or even swank function returns a path to the resulting FASL - if you're in for a dive, you can use that to copy the resulting FASL where you want it to be.
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2017-05-24T14:29:08Z jdz: There's also `slime-compile-file-options'
2017-05-24T14:29:32Z jdz: Which I have set to '(:fasl-directory "/tmp/slime-fasls/")
2017-05-24T14:29:53Z zulu_inuoe: Right, so on my system my fasls go in ~/AppData/common-lisp/sbcl-1.3.15-win-x64/<FULL-PATH-TO-FILE>
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2017-05-24T14:31:04Z tapioco: hiu
2017-05-24T14:31:07Z zulu_inuoe: It's something that (at least on my use case) would not have anything to do with asdf, really. So it seems like it'd be easy (famous last words) to have slime spit out using that same scheme
2017-05-24T14:32:11Z tapioco: please, does cffi:foreign-free destroy complex object too like structures or shall I destroy any single allocated pointer inside the structure itself?
2017-05-24T14:32:15Z zulu_inuoe: jdz: Yeah that would work, but I do like the other transform since it makes it trivial to identify where files are coming from
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2017-05-24T14:33:09Z zulu_inuoe: tapioco: It's just like C free(). You'll have to free anything you allocated
2017-05-24T14:33:11Z jdz: That could be something slime-asdf contrib would provide.
2017-05-24T14:33:25Z tapioco: zulu_inuoe: ok, thanks
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2017-05-24T14:34:20Z zulu_inuoe: jdz: Thought so, too. Didn't see an option out of the box so I thought I'd ask here in case I was blind
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2017-05-24T19:32:02Z gendl: Hi, is it possible to package cffi for a runtime deployment without depending on ASDF?
2017-05-24T19:32:28Z gendl: If i use (asdf:operate 'asdf:monolithic-compile-bundle :cl+ssl) to generate a standalone loadable .fasl file,
2017-05-24T19:32:49Z gendl: that .fasl file ends up with a bunch of symbols in ASDF packages, coming from CFFI.
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2017-05-24T19:32:59Z jackdaniel: asdf injects itself even if runtime doesn't depend on it
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2017-05-24T19:33:31Z gendl: I don't need all CFFI's generate capabilities, just the runtime -- no easy way to disentangle ASDF from it?
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2017-05-24T19:33:57Z gendl: as of now, that is the one thing which is polluting my image with ASDF dependency.
2017-05-24T19:34:13Z gendl: things really aren't supposed to depend on ASDF, as far as I understand...
2017-05-24T19:34:56Z jackdaniel: some parts of cffi do use asdf (just checked)
2017-05-24T19:35:29Z jackdaniel: you may want to try to create a "mini" system which doesn't include extra goodies
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2017-05-24T19:37:38Z jackdaniel: gendl: it seems that base cffi system uses asdf only in functions.lisp file
2017-05-24T19:38:11Z jackdaniel: in one place
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2017-05-24T19:38:32Z gendl: You mean the (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op 'cffi-libffi)
2017-05-24T19:38:39Z jackdaniel: yes
2017-05-24T19:39:30Z dlowe: these days you can (asdf:load-system 'cffi-libffi)
2017-05-24T19:39:34Z jackdaniel: but I think ASDF injects itself into bundle dependencies (see `:no-uiop' option to program-system
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2017-05-24T19:39:43Z jackdaniel: )
2017-05-24T19:39:48Z jackdaniel: in asdf.lisp source code
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2017-05-24T19:41:23Z jackdaniel: or maybe it's only for programs (not for bundles)
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2017-05-24T19:42:59Z gendl: jackdaniel: thanks. Looks kinda complicated to disentangle it. I'll have to circle back to it later.
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2017-05-24T20:02:20Z emaczen: I have a custom setf method, how would I make a custom incf method?
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2017-05-24T20:03:35Z pjb: Providing the corresponding reader.
2017-05-24T20:03:52Z phoe: emaczen: custom incf method? What do you mean?
2017-05-24T20:03:55Z pjb: (defun foo (x) …) (defun (setf foo) (nv x) …) (incf (foo x))
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2017-05-24T20:05:04Z emaczen: what is (nv x) ?
2017-05-24T20:05:17Z pjb: new-value, some random parameter your accessor may need.
2017-05-24T20:05:32Z pjb: You said you wrote a setf function!
2017-05-24T20:05:37Z phoe: gasp
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2017-05-24T20:06:50Z Bike: emaczen: incf isn't customizable, it's just (incf thing n) => (setf thing (+ thing n))
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2017-05-24T20:09:26Z emaczen: does (setf method) allow keywords?
2017-05-24T20:09:44Z pjb: Yes.
2017-05-24T20:09:54Z pjb: But methods don't dispatch on keywords.
2017-05-24T20:10:37Z pjb: And you will have to handle the same keywords in both the reader and the writer!
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2017-05-24T20:12:09Z emaczen: pjb: thanks, I got it now
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2017-05-24T20:22:29Z pookleblinky: Picolisp looks interesting
2017-05-24T20:23:20Z pjb: Not.
2017-05-24T20:24:02Z pjb: and foremost, it's out of topic.  Try ##lisp.
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2017-05-24T22:05:42Z akkad: yeah, everyone here knows we only talk about PicoDeGallo
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2017-05-24T22:09:25Z vsync: hum, trying to find some pages I know I've seen ages ago about the definition of "protocols", as such, in Common Lisp
2017-05-24T22:13:55Z vsync: IIRC like many Lisp things, it's kind of amorphous: the collection of variables and methods named by exported symbols, or something like that.  but I need to explain the concept to someone at work to summarize the overall package style, and I can't find the very slightly more stringent description I remember seeing
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2017-05-24T22:16:53Z pjb: vsync: a set of generic functions.
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2017-05-24T22:45:10Z vsync: hmm... what's the thing called where you have STANDARD-foo for most foo
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2017-05-24T23:03:49Z pookleblinky: ccl feels snappy, works perfectly with slime right out of the box.
2017-05-24T23:04:20Z Bike: it's pretty fast yeah.
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2017-05-24T23:17:17Z _death: vsync: for protocols, there's clim spec, amop, mikel evins's posts, dylan manuals, various papers (by amop authors, strandh, gabriel, etc.), many c.l.l posts
2017-05-24T23:22:06Z pookleblinky: Hm, tried running benchmarks between sbcl,ccl, and clisp, but each has an interestingly different focus on internal (time) function
2017-05-24T23:33:03Z Lord_Nightmare: what about cmucl? did that diverge enougb from sbcl by now to have a significantly different benchmark?
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