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2017-05-21T02:46:15Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-05-21T03:10:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: morning beach!
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2017-05-21T03:12:53Z pookleblinky: 94M     sbcl
2017-05-21T03:12:55Z pookleblinky: 94M     neovim
2017-05-21T03:13:13Z pookleblinky: 82M     mezzano
2017-05-21T03:13:51Z pookleblinky: heh. Mezzano, what hopes to become a full OS, is smaller than neovim *and* sbcl.
2017-05-21T03:17:49Z beach: Don't worry, it will get bigger as new features and new compiler optimizations are added.
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2017-05-21T03:38:41Z pookleblinky: beach: still fun to see how many features it gets before certain landmarks
2017-05-21T03:42:39Z beach: Sure.
2017-05-21T03:44:57Z beach: GAH!: https://github.com/robert-strandh/CLOS-MOP-HTML/issues/2
2017-05-21T03:45:23Z beach: Jean-Philippe Paradis (not here on IRC I think) improved my MOP markups considerably.
2017-05-21T03:46:38Z beach: He wants to know whether I would "adopt" his version.  I need to know what that means.  I certainly had not planned on any extensive maintenance work on mine.
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2017-05-21T03:50:29Z Lord_Nightmare: maybe replace yours with his, but host yours as another branch on that same project?
2017-05-21T03:50:53Z beach: Yeah, something like that.
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2017-05-21T03:53:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: I wonder if it would be relevant to phoe and the CLUS project
2017-05-21T03:53:26Z beach: Very much so.
2017-05-21T03:53:33Z beach: I need to talk it over with him.
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2017-05-21T03:54:07Z beach: It is a bit sad that Jean-Philippe does not hang out here, or they could have coordinated this work.
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2017-05-21T04:13:55Z beach: Oh, and to "adopt" it, I would have to make sure it works with specbot.  :(
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2017-05-21T04:17:58Z newdan: In SLDB/Slime, I can put my cursor over a stack frame and hit the v key to show the code that the frame corresponds to.  I can hit t to show locals, and I can hit e to evaluate an expression in the frame's context in the CL-USER package
2017-05-21T04:18:25Z newdan: Is there any way I can evaluate code in the frame's context but in a different package?  Particularly, in the package that the frame's code is defined in?
2017-05-21T04:19:07Z Bike: set *package* first?
2017-05-21T04:19:49Z newdan: Bike: Is that the most convenient way to do it?  Is that a normal part of your own workflow when debugging with Slime?
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2017-05-21T04:20:06Z Bike: I don't usually evaluate code in frames.
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2017-05-21T04:20:46Z Bike: sldb-eval-in-frame the function takes a package argument...
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2017-05-21T04:21:58Z Bike: it tries to get the package in the frame, seems like.
2017-05-21T04:22:29Z newdan: Huh.  Mine is always defaulting to CL-USEr
2017-05-21T04:22:33Z Bike: but sbcl's interface punts
2017-05-21T04:22:51Z newdan: Even though I use defpackage/in-package which seems like a pretty standard way of doing it
2017-05-21T04:22:51Z Bike: as in, swank has a frame-package implementation interface, and sbcl just returns nil (meaning "lol i dunno")
2017-05-21T04:23:14Z newdan: Ah lol that sucks
2017-05-21T04:23:25Z Bike: no, i spoke too soon, it does do something.
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2017-05-21T04:23:58Z Bike: specifically... it uses the package that the function called in the frame is named in.
2017-05-21T04:25:01Z newdan: Hm, well code both above and below are defined in packages that aren't CL-USER
2017-05-21T04:25:19Z newdan: I wonder if something about my config is just broken
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2017-05-21T04:25:44Z Bike: what's the function for the frame? maybe it's anonymous?
2017-05-21T04:26:50Z beach: newdan: Do you have a high value of DEBUG?
2017-05-21T04:27:14Z beach: newdan: I have (declaim (optimize (speed 0) (debug 3) (safety 3))) in my .sbclrc
2017-05-21T04:27:31Z Bike: yeah, without high debug it might not know the function or some crud.
2017-05-21T04:27:55Z newdan: I have (declaim (optimize (speed 0) (debug 3) (safety 3))) at the top of one of the files although that feels like a pretty crappy way of doing it
2017-05-21T04:28:10Z beach: Why?
2017-05-21T04:29:16Z beach: I have that as a default, because I figure I will put explicit declarations where I need more speed.  And there are very few such places.
2017-05-21T04:29:26Z newdan: Because I want it to apply to basically everywhere, and I can't tell when that declaim happens or if it will have a good impact
2017-05-21T04:29:35Z newdan: I mean I have it written in one of my source files
2017-05-21T04:29:37Z beach: That is why I put it in my .sbclrc
2017-05-21T04:29:43Z newdan: Not at the top of sbclrc
2017-05-21T04:30:00Z beach: I suggest you put it in your .sbclrc.
2017-05-21T04:30:10Z beach: That way you don't have to do it in each file.
2017-05-21T04:30:18Z newdan: lol yes I was getting that impression, will try that now and see if it helps, thanks for the tip
2017-05-21T04:30:41Z beach: In fact, if I were in charge of SBCL, I would make those values the default.
2017-05-21T04:30:57Z Bike: i think declaim optimize is file local in sbcl... probably.
2017-05-21T04:31:04Z newdan: I also have (sb-ext:restrict-compiler-policy 'debug 3),  I don't know if that's needed or what that even does
2017-05-21T04:31:05Z beach: It is.
2017-05-21T04:31:33Z Bike: newdan: it means that optimize debug declarations other than 3 are ignored, basically
2017-05-21T04:31:33Z beach: newdan: Sorry, don't know.  You might have to ask in #sbcl.
2017-05-21T04:31:45Z newdan: But as a newbie I agree beach , it would be nice to have debugging turned on unless it's turned off on purpose
2017-05-21T04:32:17Z newdan: For a while I was really confused that a bunch of my vars seemed to be missing, I've since learned that I guess the compiler tries to reduce the number of variables when possible
2017-05-21T04:32:58Z Bike: yeah, losing debug information saves time and space.
2017-05-21T04:33:05Z beach: newdan: It does.  For speed.
2017-05-21T04:34:00Z beach: newdan: For example, it is common for the compiler to eliminate a variable that is no longer "live" in that it can't be referenced anymore, even though the variable is still in scope.
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2017-05-21T04:35:46Z beach: newdan: So, for instance, if your stack frame corresponds to a control point inside a LET, but the last reference to some of the lexical variables precedes the control point, then you won't see it in the stack frame.
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2017-05-21T04:36:23Z newdan: I see, that's pretty cool.  Unfortunately the e key on a frame still wants to execute in CL-USER after putting the declaim stuff in sbclrc, but I'm still pretty happy to at least have moved that stuff to sbclrc
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2017-05-21T04:36:44Z beach: I don't know the details of SBCL, but if I were working on it, I would keep variables live artificially until they get out of scope when DEBUG is 3.
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2017-05-21T04:37:12Z beach: newdan: :(  Did you recompile?
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2017-05-21T04:37:34Z newdan: Oh, I don't know.  I restarted SBCL but I didn't try to look for/delete FASL files or anything
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2017-05-21T04:38:17Z beach: Try :FORCE T with ASDF.
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2017-05-21T04:39:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: beach: on a slightly off-topic note, shouldn't it be possible to use method specializers as type declarations?
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2017-05-21T04:40:41Z beach: Is it not possible?  Method specializers are either class names or EQL specializers.  Both are allowed in declarations.  No?
2017-05-21T04:41:22Z newdan: Still not fixing the eval in frame.  I am using quicklisp to load my system, I dunno if (ql:quickload :foo :force t) does the same thing you want (although it did look like it forced something to recompile)
2017-05-21T04:41:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: I should be more specific, I was surprised that sbcl didn't seem to make use of such type information.
2017-05-21T04:42:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: I used DEFMETHOD to decalare one argument an integer and another a string and then I passed the string to format as ~D
2017-05-21T04:42:13Z Bike: fiddlerwoaroof: can you get an improvement by adding a declaration?
2017-05-21T04:42:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: usually, if sbcl knows the type, it'll warn you, but I didn't get any warning
2017-05-21T04:42:29Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: For standard objects, it is tricky because some other thread may do a change-class.
2017-05-21T04:42:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: Ah, that's the issue
2017-05-21T04:43:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: I was trying to figure out why the type didn't propagate like I half-expected it to
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2017-05-21T07:03:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: Am I missing anything important in this? I'm trying to write a macro for running a single method of a generic function in isolation.
2017-05-21T07:03:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: http://paste.lisp.org/+7FWH/1
2017-05-21T07:06:24Z beach: What appears to be the problem?
2017-05-21T07:06:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: Everything seems to work, I'm just wondering if I'm missing any subtle edge-cases
2017-05-21T07:09:00Z beach: Looks OK to me.  Notice, though, as I pointed out the other day, that some classes of generic functions may use a different signature for its methods.
2017-05-21T07:09:13Z beach: ... for reasons of optimization.
2017-05-21T07:10:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: Ah, you mean for the method-function?
2017-05-21T07:10:54Z beach: Yes.
2017-05-21T07:11:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: I didn't think of that, I'll have to keep that in mind if I start using this more generally
2017-05-21T07:11:19Z beach: Right.
2017-05-21T07:11:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think I misunderstood what you said the other day.
2017-05-21T07:12:00Z beach: Ah, sorry.
2017-05-21T07:12:38Z beach: For example, if it can be determined that no method calls CALL-NEXT-METHOD, then the NEXT-METHODS argument may be omitted.
2017-05-21T07:13:33Z beach: Another example: I can imagine some systems which would not cons up a list of arguments to pass to methods if, say, there are only required parameters.
2017-05-21T07:13:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm, is this something that would happen on a function-by-function basis?
2017-05-21T07:13:49Z beach: Possibly, yes.
2017-05-21T07:14:20Z beach: You might want to check your thing for a simple slot accessor for instance.
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2017-05-21T07:14:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: Interesting, I'll try that.
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2017-05-21T07:17:23Z pjb: fiddlerwoaroof: also, it will fail since you don't define next-method-p and call-next-method!
2017-05-21T07:18:03Z beach: pjb: I think that was taken care of when the method function was defined.  No?
2017-05-21T07:18:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: beach: Ah, I get a memory fault if I use this on a :reader method in SBCL
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2017-05-21T07:18:36Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: I am not surprised.
2017-05-21T07:18:50Z pjb: Argh, it would have, since they're lexical functions, therefore there's absolutely no home of methodcall to ever work correctly.
2017-05-21T07:18:56Z pjb: s/home/hope/
2017-05-21T07:19:30Z pjb: You just have to implement it in the CLOS of your implementation.
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2017-05-21T07:19:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: Actually, it works sufficiently for my purposes
2017-05-21T07:20:14Z pjb: fiddlerwoaroof: it would be better to defun the body of your method and call those functions from your methods.
2017-05-21T07:20:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: The reason for the next-method related stuff is to provide something to "catch" functions that try to call-next-method
2017-05-21T07:20:21Z pjb: Then you could also call them from outside of your methods.
2017-05-21T07:20:38Z pjb: You can write a define-defun-method macro to do that.
2017-05-21T07:20:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: My purpose here is to test each method of a generic function separately
2017-05-21T07:20:56Z pjb: This is silly and not possible.
2017-05-21T07:20:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: I could also do it the way you suggest, but I wanted to experiment with this way.
2017-05-21T07:21:02Z pjb: Thise is not how OO works.
2017-05-21T07:21:07Z beach: pjb: I think next-method-p and call-next-method turn into accesses on the list of next methods so it works in the default case.
2017-05-21T07:22:13Z beach: pjb: The problem is that an implementation is allowed to optimize for standard MOP-defined classes, in particular for standard-generic-function, so it could very well not work on certain implementations in that case.
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2017-05-21T07:36:07Z pjb: fiddlerwoaroof: what you can test is the generic function with different classes of arguments.  But it doesn't make sense to try to test single methods, in lisp, because of method combinations.  In Objective-C, you could get a pointer to a method function and call it, and it would work, because it could still call super and that's all you have there as method combination.
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2017-05-21T07:36:40Z pjb: But in CLOS, it is the method combination that decides how the methods are called.
2017-05-21T07:36:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: Sure, I understand that
2017-05-21T07:37:12Z pjb: This is why I don't think you can expect next-method-p and call-next-method to be statically determined (or "optimized") in general.
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2017-05-21T07:37:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, there are a couple situations where I just want to test that my code works and I don't care what the other code being run does
2017-05-21T07:39:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: For example, if I'm using a library by extending a generic function, I might want to make sure that, given certain expected inputs, the body of the method produces the expected output, but I might not want to test the library code.
2017-05-21T07:39:13Z pjb: I don't know what you're trying to isolate. If you can implement your hack, then you can just call the generic function directly, it won't make a difference.
2017-05-21T07:39:58Z pjb: Again, if you have such simple and orthogonal methods, it may be preferable to put their bodies in separate functions, and test them.
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2017-05-21T07:40:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: It might, if, for example, the :around method connects to a database and writes the result of the primary method to the database, it might be useful to run the primary method by itself to make sure the right data gets written
2017-05-21T07:40:23Z pjb: (defun do-the-real-thing (args) …)  (defmethod m ((o c)) (do-the-real-thing o))
2017-05-21T07:40:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: And, this is mostly just an experiment, I'm not really claiming (yet) that this is actually a good idea.
2017-05-21T07:41:14Z pjb: Definitely, if you have such independent stuff, keep it in separate functions: you probably will want to reuse it elsewhere.
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2017-05-21T08:32:52Z knobo: clsh 22.3 Formatted Output gives the example "~3,-4:@s". But can colinc be negative?
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2017-05-21T11:46:03Z easye: Is an implementation free to extend the behavior of CL:COERCE?
2017-05-21T11:58:34Z Baggers: easye: It doesnt look like it
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2017-05-21T11:58:59Z Baggers: easye: It is allowed to succeed if the object is already of the requested type though
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2017-05-21T12:04:09Z edgar-rft: in some years when all folks involved in the ANSI spec are dead, we're finally allowed to implement whatever we want
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2017-05-21T12:08:07Z Baggers: edgar-rft: ?
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2017-05-21T12:09:09Z edgar-rft: it was only an idea in my dumb little head :-)
2017-05-21T12:09:26Z _death: nothing prevents you from implementing whatever you want right now
2017-05-21T12:10:18Z shrdlu68: They'll declare fatwa on you.
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2017-05-21T12:12:48Z edgar-rft: _death: but then I'm not a conforming implementation anymore
2017-05-21T12:13:31Z _death: that will not change
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2017-05-21T12:14:07Z edgar-rft: _death: you mean I already was a non-conforming implementation before?
2017-05-21T12:14:33Z _death: I mean the spec will remain as it is after humanity is long gone
2017-05-21T12:15:39Z edgar-rft: I agree, the spec is inhuman :-)
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2017-05-21T13:40:16Z _death: there, at the edge of the world, as chaos disperses bits throughout, lay the petrified common lisp hyperspec, ready to pronounce your implementation nonconforming
2017-05-21T13:41:01Z grublet: but it has a lisp, so it can't pronounce things very well
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2017-05-21T13:58:07Z krator44: too bad that the spec is proprietary..
2017-05-21T13:58:23Z krator44: that's actually a huge disadvantage of the language
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2017-05-21T14:01:30Z krator44: in some.. attempt to stay relevant they keep the copyright on that
2017-05-21T14:02:21Z krator44: it doesn't make any sense
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2017-05-21T14:09:21Z krator44: relinquish the hyperspec
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2017-05-21T14:11:03Z grublet: hyperspec is such a futuristic sounding word
2017-05-21T14:11:21Z grublet: like it's made of chrome and has lightning bolts painted on it
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2017-05-21T14:24:27Z jackdaniel: krator44: here, this one is not proprietary: http://cvberry.com/tech_writings/notes/common_lisp_standard_draft.html
2017-05-21T14:24:43Z jackdaniel: fwiw clhs is build from the same draft
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2017-05-21T14:36:54Z |3b|: yeah, only the html of the hyperspec is proprietary
2017-05-21T14:37:07Z krator44: jackdaniel: oh hey thanks
2017-05-21T14:37:11Z krator44: thats not even that bad
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2017-05-21T14:37:57Z jackdaniel: tex sources are public domain
2017-05-21T14:39:16Z jackdaniel: sure
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2017-05-21T14:40:30Z |3b|: also there is http://phoe.tymoon.eu/clus/doku.php which is trying to make a new/nice/etc replacement for CLHS
2017-05-21T14:41:13Z |3b|: (and place for lisp documentation in general, not just the spec)
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2017-05-21T15:05:50Z krator44: i thought the hyperspec was the main specification
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2017-05-21T15:09:06Z beach: krator44: We treat it that way, because the main specification seems to exist only as a scanned PDF document from ANSI.
2017-05-21T15:09:34Z krator44: it's not a scanned document
2017-05-21T15:09:48Z beach: Oh?
2017-05-21T15:10:23Z beach: krator44: What evidence to the contrary do you have?
2017-05-21T15:10:25Z krator44: it looks like actually a compiled tex file
2017-05-21T15:10:33Z krator44: you think it's scanned?
2017-05-21T15:10:37Z beach: krator44: Did you buy it from ANSI?
2017-05-21T15:10:40Z krator44: just check out the link
2017-05-21T15:11:02Z beach: krator44: ANSI is a for-profit organization that owns the standard.  There is no link to it.
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2017-05-21T15:11:50Z krator44: well what about this one http://cvberry.com/tech_writings/notes/common_lisp_standard_draft.html
2017-05-21T15:11:57Z beach: That's the draft.
2017-05-21T15:12:03Z beach: It is not the standard.
2017-05-21T15:12:06Z jackdaniel: krator44: that's not ansi standard what I have linked
2017-05-21T15:12:14Z jackdaniel: it is build from the same specification draft as clhs is
2017-05-21T15:12:33Z jackdaniel: clhs isn't ansi standard either
2017-05-21T15:12:50Z beach: krator44: So, again, did you buy the standard from ANSI to determine that it is not a scanned document?
2017-05-21T15:13:11Z krator44: no i hadn't but i'm ok with the draft
2017-05-21T15:13:20Z jackdaniel: ANSI sells silly specification scan which is unusable
2017-05-21T15:13:48Z jackdaniel: that's not even close to being worth its price
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2017-05-21T15:18:54Z jackdaniel: krator44: this is a fascinating read: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/cl-untold-story.html
2017-05-21T15:19:28Z jackdaniel: which outlines history of the common lisp specification
2017-05-21T15:30:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: Section 3.2 of that essay is one of my favorite non-technical aspects of Common Lisp
2017-05-21T15:30:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: I
2017-05-21T15:30:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm pretty tired of dealing with languages and standard libraries that change out from under you.
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2017-05-21T15:32:02Z jackdaniel: yes, I find it pretty amusing that CL programs from '94 work flawlessly on today implementations
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2017-05-21T16:02:14Z edgar-rft: jackdaniel: it's probably more like CL programs from '94 work with *exactly the same bugs as they had then* on today implementations
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