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2017-05-20T02:24:04Z azrazalea: Anyone know of the top of their head if there is a good quicklisp library for watching a filesystem directory for changes and then firing a function? I found one but it is a simple sleep loop and i'd prefer something smarter. I only need linux support.
2017-05-20T02:24:30Z azrazalea: Needs to be recursively watching
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2017-05-20T04:29:40Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-05-20T04:31:06Z azrazalea: Hey beach
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2017-05-20T05:22:39Z whoman: azrazalea, are you able to instead use shell script? or execute an external command?
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2017-05-20T05:25:32Z jackdaniel: azrazalea: http://www.cliki.net/cl-inotify ?
2017-05-20T05:25:50Z jackdaniel: never used it, just checked out cliki.net system programming section
2017-05-20T05:25:54Z jackdaniel: this seems to match your needs
2017-05-20T05:26:27Z jackdaniel: azrazalea: second library standing out: http://www.cliki.net/stassats-inotify
2017-05-20T05:28:35Z azrazalea: jackdaniel: Yeah, I found those after I asked(thanks cliki as well!). Currently working on a cl-inotify solution but i'm having to implement recursive watching. Taking a shower before I start on it in earnest
2017-05-20T05:28:55Z jackdaniel: :)
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2017-05-20T05:29:13Z azrazalea: whoman: I probably could(though I'd have to learn how to do that as well), I just am doing this in lisp and would prefer to continue doing so.
2017-05-20T05:29:42Z azrazalea: I'll share once i'm done. It is pretty simple, just auto rebuilding coleslaw so hutchentoot can serve updates automagically
2017-05-20T05:30:51Z azrazalea: Adding some kind of browser hook to auto refresh would be the next step but I probably won't bother
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2017-05-20T06:07:04Z axion: Quick question. To get the length of an array, is it inefficient like a list?
2017-05-20T06:07:11Z beach: No.
2017-05-20T06:07:34Z axion: I didn't think so, though I can't seem to test differing speeds.
2017-05-20T06:07:59Z beach: Your implementation typically stores the length (or some similar metric) somewhere at the beginning of the array.
2017-05-20T06:09:09Z axion: Can you provide me with a test form that will likely yield differing timings vs a list?
2017-05-20T06:09:18Z axion: I'm not sure why I can't see a difference
2017-05-20T06:09:27Z beach: Sure.
2017-05-20T06:09:29Z jackdaniel: axion: create list of length 100000000 elements
2017-05-20T06:09:30Z jackdaniel: and array
2017-05-20T06:09:41Z jackdaniel: then call length 1000 times of each timing it
2017-05-20T06:10:15Z beach: Exactly.
2017-05-20T06:10:23Z beach: (defparameter *a* (make-array 10000000))
2017-05-20T06:10:29Z beach: (defparameter *l* (make-list 10000000)
2017-05-20T06:10:59Z beach: (time (loop repeat 100 sum (length *a*))) => 0.000 seconds
2017-05-20T06:11:19Z beach: (time (loop repeat 100 sum (length *l*))) => 1.9 seconds
2017-05-20T06:11:58Z beach: axion: What did you try that you couldn't see the difference?
2017-05-20T06:12:52Z axion: As a quick test: (time (dotimes (i 1000) (length (apply #'vector `(,@ (loop :for i :below 100000 :collect i))))))
2017-05-20T06:12:55Z axion: vs #'list
2017-05-20T06:13:07Z axion: But yours seems to show me better. Thanks
2017-05-20T06:13:29Z beach: Make sure you are not timing the creation of the vector/list.
2017-05-20T06:13:42Z axion: Ah true
2017-05-20T06:13:59Z beach: Common Lisp initializes the elements of a newly created array, so creating one takes time proportional to its length.
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2017-05-20T06:24:02Z Bike: not necessarily
2017-05-20T06:26:40Z beach: I suppose it could depend on what you want the initial element to be.
2017-05-20T06:27:18Z Bike: i mean, if you don't specify initial element or anything the array contents are uninitialized, and reading them is undefined
2017-05-20T06:28:33Z beach: I guess that's true, yes.
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2017-05-20T06:30:01Z beach: I certainly hope every existing Common Lisp implementation does not count on that possibility to return an uninitialized array.
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2017-05-20T06:31:45Z beach: Note to self: Specify what will happen if initial-element is not given in Common Lisp version 3 (which will be called something different to avoid confusion with existing projects).
2017-05-20T06:31:45Z beach:  
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2017-05-20T06:36:09Z beach: HSCL?  Highly Specified Common Lisp?
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2017-05-20T06:39:27Z beach: For those who don't know: I have a long-term project to create an updated Common Lisp standard.
2017-05-20T06:39:28Z beach: The only difference between the updated standard and the current one will be that much behavior that is indicated as unspecified or undefined in the current standard will be specified and defined.  In particular when it corresponds to what every implementation (that we care about) behaves that way.
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2017-05-20T06:40:05Z beach: , or some grammatical version thereof.
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2017-05-20T06:59:38Z whoman: i like the idea of procedurally generated languages
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2017-05-20T07:05:05Z axion: Thanks beach
2017-05-20T07:05:47Z axion: I'm working on extending my doubly linked list data structure implementation, as it was pretty naive. I'm encountering some interesting hurdles with the optimization I employed.
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2017-05-20T07:08:55Z whoman: supercons?
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2017-05-20T07:14:44Z beach: axion: Anytime!
2017-05-20T07:15:30Z beach: whoman: What is a "procedurally generated language"?
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2017-05-20T07:22:14Z jackdaniel: hscl reminds me boringcc principles: https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!msg/boring-crypto/48qa1kWignU/o8GGp2K1DAAJ
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2017-05-20T07:22:59Z jackdaniel: another approach, which is fully standard compatible would be signalling conditions whenever programmer tries to depend on undefined / underspecified mechanism
2017-05-20T07:23:00Z beach: Yes, very similar idea.
2017-05-20T07:23:33Z jackdaniel: because if it's undefined, compiler is free to signal an error
2017-05-20T07:23:37Z beach: Well, I am planning to be very careful not to degrade performance.
2017-05-20T07:24:57Z beach: That might mean leaving it unspecified when safety is 0 and not otherwise.
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2017-05-20T07:25:39Z beach: But yes, if there is no reasonable action to take, then signaling an error is an option.
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2017-05-20T07:46:21Z azrazalea: This is what I ended up with https://gitlab.com/azrazalea/azrazalea-net/blob/master/functions.lisp
2017-05-20T07:46:32Z azrazalea: With the addition of https://gitlab.com/azrazalea/coleslaw/commit/577053276c87833bd2419e9928d5924b6c655a68 to coleslaw
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2017-05-20T08:19:58Z jack_rabbit: How do common lisps deal with infinitely recursive macro expansions? They obviously can't fully expand them at compile-time.
2017-05-20T08:22:09Z jack_rabbit: but doing further expansion at runtime inside a compiled function seems like it would require modifying a compiled function on the fly.
2017-05-20T08:23:04Z beach: jack_rabbit: Macro expansion is defined to be done at compile time.
2017-05-20T08:23:15Z beach: So you can't have infinitely recursive macros.
2017-05-20T08:23:21Z jack_rabbit: hmm...
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2017-05-20T08:24:16Z beach: clhs 3.2.2.2
2017-05-20T08:24:16Z specbot: Minimal Compilation: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_bbb.htm
2017-05-20T08:24:45Z jack_rabbit: http://paste.lisp.org/display/347130
2017-05-20T08:25:41Z beach: What about that paste?
2017-05-20T08:27:07Z jack_rabbit: aha. okay, so when I enter that and evaluate (foo (1)) at the repl, it works. Trying to compile a file with it fails with blown stack, as I would have expected.
2017-05-20T08:28:51Z jack_rabbit: I was just surprised it worked in the repl. Guess it doesn't do full expansion when it's interpreting.
2017-05-20T08:29:34Z beach: Right.
2017-05-20T08:32:54Z edgar-rft: jack_rabbit: an infinite stack is an inevitable requirement for infinite recursion, infinite compile-time will be next ... :-)
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2017-05-20T08:36:29Z jack_rabbit: I know it can't *actually* recur infinitely, but if you expand only as necessary you can still evaluate a form.
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2017-05-20T08:43:09Z edgar-rft: If your macro non-recursively expands into a recursive helper-function or a LABELS form you can implement run-time checks for the recursion depth.
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2017-05-20T13:53:51Z prole: I have just updated SBCL to the 1.3.17
2017-05-20T13:53:59Z phoe: prole: did anything explode?
2017-05-20T13:54:03Z prole: And the MELPA version of slime don't seem to work with it...
2017-05-20T13:55:10Z phoe: prole: what is the error?
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2017-05-20T13:55:29Z prole: Swak start, but there is no repl open
2017-05-20T13:55:41Z phoe: what are the messages in the inferior lisp buffer?
2017-05-20T13:55:47Z |3b|: probably need newer swank/slime
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2017-05-20T13:57:32Z prole: My distro repositorie purpose a version of slime, slime-2.15, but it don't work either, with the error saying that I need make operation, and just stopping on a file
2017-05-20T13:57:45Z phoe: 2.15, that's old
2017-05-20T13:57:49Z phoe: my suggestion:
2017-05-20T13:57:55Z phoe: kick out all slime versions you have
2017-05-20T13:58:01Z phoe: then (ql:quickload :quicklisp-slime-helper)
2017-05-20T13:58:06Z prole: ok, i'll try
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2017-05-20T14:00:10Z prole: It works, thanks a lot
2017-05-20T14:00:57Z phoe: prole: <3
2017-05-20T14:01:46Z prole: That's crazy how the help is good here. I truly don't understand why people are saying that the lisp community is bad; I only met very good and helpful people here
2017-05-20T14:01:58Z prole: <3
2017-05-20T14:03:08Z beach: prole: Yes, if you have reasonable questions, you follow the advice you get, and you learn between two questions, then usually the answers are to the point.
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2017-05-20T15:03:00Z wes: hi
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2017-05-20T15:03:45Z wes: So, I'm reading through Practical Common Lisp
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2017-05-20T15:04:21Z wes: And I came to a footnote that explains that 'let is a macro to rebind its variables using a lambda expression
2017-05-20T15:04:43Z wes: I though, cool. Lemme check that out using 'macroexpand-1
2017-05-20T15:04:54Z wes: but macroexpand-1 seems to tell me its not a macro
2017-05-20T15:04:57Z wes: is this so?
2017-05-20T15:05:45Z jackdaniel: wes: let is a special operator
2017-05-20T15:05:46Z |3b|: it is a special form in CL rather than a macro (though it could have been defined as a macro)
2017-05-20T15:05:52Z jackdaniel: it could be implemented as a macro but it isn't
2017-05-20T15:05:56Z jackdaniel: ah :_)
2017-05-20T15:05:58Z |3b|: (yeah, "special operator")
2017-05-20T15:06:47Z wes: oh, re-read the foot note. "In some Lisp dialects ... though not Common Lisp"
2017-05-20T15:06:50Z wes: makes sense now
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2017-05-20T15:07:24Z wes: what about defun?
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2017-05-20T15:07:48Z jackdaniel: wes: check out l1sp.org
2017-05-20T15:08:03Z jackdaniel: it provides convenient search engine (for instance with clhs references)
2017-05-20T15:08:27Z jackdaniel: if you type defun in it, you'll see /cl/defun and it will tell you, that defun is a macro
2017-05-20T15:08:57Z jackdaniel: you may look up there any common lisp symbol
2017-05-20T15:09:28Z wes: doesn't seem to load. Is the site down?
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2017-05-20T15:10:05Z Bike: works fine. here. http://l1sp.org/cl/defun
2017-05-20T15:10:13Z Bike: works fine here*
2017-05-20T15:10:26Z jackdaniel: wes: the second letter is digit one
2017-05-20T15:10:27Z Bike: 1 instead of i
2017-05-20T15:10:28Z jackdaniel: not i
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2017-05-20T15:10:53Z wes: oh. l1sp
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2017-05-20T15:12:01Z wes: sweet. Thanks
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2017-05-20T15:12:34Z jackdaniel: :)(
2017-05-20T15:12:36Z jackdaniel: :) *
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2017-05-20T18:56:54Z drmeister: Hi - I added some specialized vector/array types to Clasp and I thought I did everything right - but the new types/classes aren't working properly wrt subtypep
2017-05-20T18:58:00Z drmeister: Uh - pausing while I formulate thought
2017-05-20T18:59:34Z drmeister: Ok - this is what I get in ECL
2017-05-20T18:59:35Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/fuphnlQ8/
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2017-05-20T19:00:12Z drmeister: I make a vector of '(integer 0 255) and the (subtypep (class-of <vec>) 'vector) -> T   Great
2017-05-20T19:00:51Z drmeister: I do the same thing in Clasp:
2017-05-20T19:00:52Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/qpKlo74D/
2017-05-20T19:01:09Z drmeister: (subtypep (class-of <vec-in-clasp>) 'vector) -> NIL
2017-05-20T19:01:49Z drmeister: (class-of <vec-in-clasp>) -> #<BUILT-IN-CLASS SIMPLE-VECTOR-BYTE8-T>   Where ECL returns #<The BUILT-IN-CLASS VECTOR>
2017-05-20T19:02:52Z drmeister: Clasp implements the specialized vectors as C++ classes - so there are a bunch of them for signed and unsigned integers and integers of 8, 16, 32, 64 bits.
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2017-05-20T19:04:36Z drmeister: The (vectorp <vec>) predicate returns T in both cases - so I have that much.
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2017-05-20T19:05:19Z drmeister: If anyone has pointers on how to get Clasp's subclassp to respond properly - I'm all ears.
2017-05-20T19:05:40Z drmeister: I will continue to dig into the subtypep code to figure out where the crucial test is.
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2017-05-20T19:07:52Z drmeister: Well, one reason I was having trouble was cacheing of the subtypep result- I figured out how to disable it.
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2017-05-20T19:13:22Z axion: While I don't have a solution, I'd just like to thank you for your determination with Clasp over the years. I have not tried it yet, but it is a project on my radar.
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2017-05-20T20:13:59Z drmeister: Is this a problem?       (subtypep (find-class 'core:simple-vector-int8-t) 'vector) -> NIL       &&    (subtypep (find-class 'core:simple-vector-int8-t) (find-class 'vector)) -> T
2017-05-20T20:14:27Z drmeister: It's inconsistent right?    It means I still have to weave 'core:simple-vector-int8-t into the subtypep code.
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2017-05-20T20:18:08Z jasom: the class of an object in lisp is not neessarily the same as its type
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2017-05-20T20:23:21Z jasom: e.g. all strings are in a single class despite there being 3 string types specified in the standard
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2017-05-20T20:27:15Z jasom: I don't know if you're allowed to have the class of a vector be something other than the ones specified in the standard
2017-05-20T20:27:47Z jasom: hmm actually I think you are because IIRC some implementations define vectors of base-char to be a subclass of string
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