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2017-05-19T00:53:08Z deba5e12: sukaeto: i was just saying the same thing today. it's a good way of explaining what a shell is (as a repl & a scripting lang).
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2017-05-19T02:48:44Z axion: What does anyone think about naming reader/writer/accessors the same as slot names? I remember hearing good arguments in both directions here before, but I forgot.
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2017-05-19T03:11:22Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-05-19T03:11:57Z beach: axion: I give them separate names so that client code would not be tempted to use SLOT-VALUE, etc.
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2017-05-19T03:12:59Z axion: Makes sense.
2017-05-19T03:13:55Z beach: The counter-argument (Xach, for instance) is that SLOT-VALUE itself should set off as many alarms as `::%'.
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2017-05-19T03:14:08Z axion: Ha, yeah I agree.
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2017-05-19T03:15:45Z axion: I suppose it becomes impossible to have a concise, uniform API in your case though.
2017-05-19T03:16:49Z beach: How so?
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2017-05-19T03:17:59Z axion: Well one typically does not prefix slot names, only accessors. The generic function approach of accessors amoung different objects is nice.
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2017-05-19T03:19:07Z beach: I consider the accessor to be the `main' name, so I prefix slot names with `%'.
2017-05-19T03:19:16Z axion: (width instance-of-class-1) / (width instance-of-class-2) vs (class-1-width ..) / (class-2-width ..)
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2017-05-19T03:19:46Z beach: Both me and Xach are totally opposed to prefixing accessor names with class names.
2017-05-19T03:19:57Z beach: It looks really bad with complex inheritance.
2017-05-19T03:20:08Z axion: It does, which is exactly why I am asking
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2017-05-19T03:20:20Z beach: Like (sheet-parent pane).
2017-05-19T03:21:00Z beach: That is why I use (defclass sheet (...) ((%parent :accessor parent))) so that I can write (parent pane) and (parent sheet).
2017-05-19T03:21:27Z axion: Thinking about it, it almost always makes sense to prefix all slot names with '%'. I disagree with SLOT-VALUE, WITH-SLOTS and the like in most cases.
2017-05-19T03:22:43Z axion: I think we both have exactly the same ideals then.
2017-05-19T03:22:46Z beach: You disagree with what aspects of SLOT-VALUE etc?  Using them?  With me about not using them?
2017-05-19T03:23:57Z beach: I don't even use them internally anymore.  I much prefer to establish an internal protocol so that I can extend my own software in a modular way.
2017-05-19T03:24:02Z axion: I disagree with using them most of the time
2017-05-19T03:24:07Z beach: I see.  OK.
2017-05-19T03:24:35Z axion: In some rare cases I use WITH-SLOTS when I'm accessing some long accessor name[s] multiple times in a verbose function
2017-05-19T03:24:47Z beach: Use WITH-ACCESSORS instead.
2017-05-19T03:25:00Z beach: clhs with-accessors
2017-05-19T03:25:00Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_acce.htm
2017-05-19T03:25:02Z axion: Yeah, same deal.
2017-05-19T03:25:07Z axion: I am aware :)
2017-05-19T03:25:10Z beach: Not the same at all.
2017-05-19T03:25:14Z axion: I know
2017-05-19T03:25:33Z beach: WITH-SLOTS bypasses the protocol whereas WITH-ACESSORS does not.
2017-05-19T03:26:03Z axion: Right, I meant WITH-ACCESSORS however...
2017-05-19T03:26:37Z axion: In some even more rare cases i use WITH-SLOTS when I define only a reader method and I want to assign a slot after object creation, when I'm not using initialize-instance
2017-05-19T03:26:52Z axion: Probably bad style
2017-05-19T03:27:03Z beach: For that I use REINITIALIZE-INSTANCE.
2017-05-19T03:27:26Z beach: ... inside the :AFTER method of INITIALIZE-INSTANCE.
2017-05-19T03:27:46Z axion: I see
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2017-05-19T03:30:01Z axion: Well thanks for your thoughts. It is nice to know I do not do things strangely
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2017-05-19T03:30:55Z axion: I have not visited any CLOS code in about a year until today, and looking at old code of mine made me question it a little bit.
2017-05-19T03:31:12Z beach: Sure.  Discussions like this are always very helpful.  I am convinced we (as suppliers of free Common Lisp software) must pay more attention to modularity etc., so as to decrease the total burden of maintenance.
2017-05-19T03:31:29Z beach: Oh, I know what you mean.
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2017-05-19T04:54:08Z jasom: beach: what are your thoughts on message-passing style methods?
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2017-05-19T04:54:39Z beach: jasom: Can you give an example of that style?
2017-05-19T04:54:55Z jasom: (send object 'method arg1 ...)
2017-05-19T04:55:09Z beach: I think that's a bad idea.
2017-05-19T04:55:17Z beach: It makes things like mapping much harder.
2017-05-19T05:04:45Z pillton: Mapping?
2017-05-19T05:05:01Z beach: (map... #'send...)
2017-05-19T05:05:08Z beach: Not so easy anymore.
2017-05-19T05:05:38Z beach: I think that's part of the reason for CLOS.
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2017-05-19T05:11:34Z pillton: Sometimes I wish we had the equivalent of a.operator().
2017-05-19T05:12:17Z Bike: funcallable instances?
2017-05-19T05:16:34Z pillton: Like this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/347051
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2017-05-19T05:19:04Z Bike: can you not do this with funcallable instances?
2017-05-19T05:19:47Z pillton: But it would end up like message passing (component 'fn 1 2 3).
2017-05-19T05:20:38Z pillton: Oh sorry. There could be multiple functions part of the state of the object class.
2017-05-19T05:21:00Z pillton: It was a poor example. My apologies.
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2017-05-19T05:21:50Z pillton: You could generalise it such that slot-value could be replaced with find-symbol.
2017-05-19T05:22:08Z pillton: Then you could write tests which were invariant to the system used.
2017-05-19T05:22:25Z jasom: beach: wouldn't it be trivial to write a method-map?
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2017-05-19T05:24:09Z jasom: something like: (defun mmap (name &rest lists) (map (lambda (&rest args) (apply #'send name args)))
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2017-05-19T05:24:50Z jasom: something like: (defun mmap (name &rest lists) (apply #'map (lambda (&rest args) (apply #'send name args) lists))
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2017-05-19T05:26:38Z jasom: the one advantage send has is that name collisions are not a problem with it; short names for generic functions can collide preventing you from importing two methods
2017-05-19T05:27:23Z pillton: There could also be a semantic collision too.
2017-05-19T05:29:26Z pillton: i.e. One set of methods for a generic function perform a task that is different to what is done by others.
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2017-05-19T05:29:58Z jasom: indeed
2017-05-19T05:30:06Z pillton: The accessor name is a good example.
2017-05-19T05:30:09Z jasom: though how bad that is seems to be debated still
2017-05-19T05:30:34Z pillton: Well its dreadful if :before, :after and :around methods are encouraged.
2017-05-19T05:31:54Z jasom: pillton: or at least differently specialized :before :after :around
2017-05-19T05:32:08Z jasom: which does happen quite a bit
2017-05-19T05:32:52Z jasom: I was thinking of semantically differing overloads in less capable object systems (most famously C++'s  (ash stream "foo") for output)
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2017-05-19T05:34:29Z jasom: like much of C++ I waver between admiring it's cleverness and running away in horror at it's ugliness
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2017-05-19T05:36:08Z beach: jasom: You would have to give up lots of Common Lisp standard functions, or make them harder to use.  Consider the :TEST and :KEY of the sequence functions.  You now have to wrap them in (lambda (object) (send 'key object)) etc.
2017-05-19T05:36:47Z jasom: beach: yes, I see now that message-passing OO is hostile to several functional idioms
2017-05-19T05:36:54Z beach: jasom: Again, I think part of the reason for CLOS generic functions was to maintain the usefulness of existing Lisp functions like the sequence functions, the mapping functions, reduce, etc.
2017-05-19T05:37:14Z jasom: I was wondering about the motivation for CLOS as the object systems that predate it were mostly of the SEND variety
2017-05-19T05:37:47Z jasom: since they were inspired by smalltalk
2017-05-19T05:37:56Z pillton: Where they the send variety where the processing of the "invocation" was done asynchronously?
2017-05-19T05:37:59Z beach: I think the problems I mentioned are a large part of the motivation.
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2017-05-19T05:45:37Z pillton: I guess it boils down to subjective concepts like granularity, modularity, reusability and some others I've forgotten.
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2017-05-19T06:07:46Z flip214: comments on hacker news:
2017-05-19T06:07:48Z flip214: >  Are there any continuation implementations in Common Lisp?
2017-05-19T06:07:53Z flip214: >  there is cl-cont which works by CPS transformation, so if performance is your concern it's not ideal.
2017-05-19T06:08:06Z flip214: but I don't see the performance implications - unless compilation time is meant.
2017-05-19T06:08:28Z flip214: in which way would CPS be slower?
2017-05-19T06:09:03Z Bike: it makes everything a long sequence of function calls
2017-05-19T06:09:50Z Bike: kills a whole lot of compiler optimizations too, i reckon
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2017-05-19T06:41:47Z flip214: well, I would have guessed that compilers are smart enough to translate "CALL function; RET" into "JUMP function" anyway, and then there shouldn't be any differences
2017-05-19T06:47:35Z Bike: i mean, say you have (+ (+ a b) c). you'd rewrite that as like (cps+ a b (lambda (v) (cps+ v c k))). the compiler is maybe not smart enough to figure that v is always a number so it might put in an extra check that's obviously unneeded.
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2017-05-19T06:50:42Z flip214: "obviously unneeded" but "compiler not smart enough" ... the hunt for the SSC ;)
2017-05-19T06:51:05Z flip214: well, #'+ shouldn't even cause some rewrite, because that can't block
2017-05-19T06:51:33Z Bike: but you get the point.
2017-05-19T06:51:43Z Bike: also i don't know if cl-cont is smart enough to not do it
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2017-05-19T06:51:55Z flip214: IIRC only calls to function that got explicitly _marked_ as "may sleep" resp. "may switch tasks away" would get transformed?!
2017-05-19T06:52:05Z flip214: yeah, of course. implementation details...
2017-05-19T06:52:16Z flip214: but I wouldn't see any general reason for slowness.
2017-05-19T06:52:20Z flip214: thanks for confirming!
2017-05-19T06:52:40Z Bike: no prob i guess
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2017-05-19T09:18:33Z ecraven: is there a library that automatically handles reading and writing xml based on clos classes or structs/records?
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2017-05-19T09:20:37Z phoe: ecraven: there is
2017-05-19T09:20:41Z phoe: gimme a second
2017-05-19T09:20:55Z phoe: CXML is its name
2017-05-19T09:21:14Z ecraven: I just looked at that (for 15 seconds), didn't see anything about directly parsing to CLOS objects
2017-05-19T09:21:44Z phoe: it is able to parse into nested list structure
2017-05-19T09:22:06Z ecraven: aye, but I'm looking for some way to "declare" a clos class that will magically work
2017-05-19T09:22:15Z ecraven: I want something like (def-xml-class game (id attribute) (name attribute) (description element)...)
2017-05-19T09:22:18Z phoe: also, what do you mean, parsing into CLOS objects? how do you teach it how it should parse a given XML?
2017-05-19T09:22:27Z phoe: I see
2017-05-19T09:22:28Z ecraven: some custom DSL ;)
2017-05-19T09:22:52Z ecraven: I'm using a DSL like that for persistent objects, seems to work well enough
2017-05-19T09:22:57Z ecraven: and it would be useful for XML too, I think
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2017-05-19T09:27:09Z loke` wrote a metaclass that parses XML objects into CLOS
2017-05-19T09:27:19Z loke`: It's part of my statusnet parser.
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2017-05-19T09:29:02Z loke`: https://github.com/lokedhs/status-net/blob/master/src/status-net.lisp#L226
2017-05-19T09:29:50Z loke`: Poorly named function, but it takes a DOM node and creates an instance of the class and initialises it based ont he XPATH definitions in the defclass.
2017-05-19T09:30:00Z ecraven: loke`: thanks!
2017-05-19T09:30:23Z loke`: Here's how it's defined: https://github.com/lokedhs/status-net/blob/master/src/status-net.lisp#L75
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2017-05-19T09:31:08Z ecraven: yea, that looks like what I want ;) thank you!
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2017-05-19T09:34:03Z loke`: ecraven: The code is a bit specialised for the Atom format (especially when it comes to names :-) ), but you can use it as a template.
2017-05-19T09:34:14Z ecraven: yea, just looking for ideas on how to handle this
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2017-05-19T09:43:27Z TMA: loke`: use guaranteed false #+(or), do not rely on :NIL not being present in *features*
2017-05-19T09:45:53Z loke`: TMA: Too much typing. :-)
2017-05-19T09:46:18Z loke`: I willing to take the risk, since I'm generally using it to temporarily comment out code.
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2017-05-19T09:46:27Z loke`: Commiting it is typically a mistake
2017-05-19T09:47:04Z TMA: :-)
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2017-05-19T10:39:07Z pillton: How common is it for people to use package-local-nicknames?
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2017-05-19T10:39:59Z easye doesn't.  But that isn't much information.
2017-05-19T10:43:17Z phoe: pillton: uncommon, because it's not standard Common Lisp.
2017-05-19T10:43:42Z easye: SBCL/ABCL and I think CCL supportit.
2017-05-19T10:43:46Z phoe: code that uses package-local nicknames is not conforming to the standard.
2017-05-19T10:43:49Z pillton: FFIs aren't standard common lisp.
2017-05-19T10:44:04Z loke`: Doesn't ECL support it?
2017-05-19T10:44:10Z phoe: pillton: there's a difference - FFI is an add-on to the standard Common Lisp.
2017-05-19T10:44:10Z pillton: ECL does now too.
2017-05-19T10:44:12Z loke`: I'm pretty sure jackdaniel announced it some time ago.
2017-05-19T10:44:26Z phoe: where package-local nicknames contradict it.
2017-05-19T10:44:37Z phoe: (AFAIK)
2017-05-19T10:44:53Z easye: No CDR for package-local https://common-lisp.net/project/cdr/final.html ? This is where post-ANSI standards are currently best ratified.
2017-05-19T10:44:54Z pillton: Ok. Fair point.
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2017-05-19T10:45:09Z phoe: easye: this should be fixed, or so I think
2017-05-19T10:45:17Z phoe: there *should* exist a CDR for package-local nicknames
2017-05-19T10:45:50Z phoe: which are perhaps enablable by a *features* flag
2017-05-19T10:46:09Z easye: Agreed.  I think the active implemntations should promote CDR more.
2017-05-19T10:46:11Z phoe: if :package-local-nicknames is present, then the reader can enable them and proceed
2017-05-19T10:46:20Z phoe: and if it's missing, then it can halt and error
2017-05-19T10:48:06Z jackdaniel: yes, ecl develop branch has package local nicknames, but it's not in any release yet
2017-05-19T10:48:45Z jackdaniel: regarding CDR, see comments under commit: https://github.com/nikodemus/SBCL/commit/3c11847d1e12db89b24a7887b18a137c45ed4661
2017-05-19T10:48:53Z jackdaniel: no answer from Nikodemus so far
2017-05-19T10:49:07Z easye: Is Nikodemus still active?
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2017-05-19T10:49:12Z jackdaniel: I don't know
2017-05-19T10:50:36Z jackdaniel: last github activity June 2015
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2017-05-19T10:54:41Z pillton: Thanks all.
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2017-05-19T11:12:15Z jackdaniel: regarding compatibility - application using package-local-nicknames won't work on implementation not supporting it. but application using ffi won't work on implementation not supporting it either.
2017-05-19T11:12:31Z jackdaniel: I don't think CCL supports it yet
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2017-05-19T13:31:36Z |3b|: easye, phoe: i think the consensus before it was added to sbcl was that specifying package local nicknames well enough for a proper spec/CDR was too hard for the available resources and usage experience, but the informal spec from my prototype was enough to be useful
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2017-05-19T13:33:54Z |3b|: pillton: i use package local nicknames, but only in "end product" type things, not general libraries intended for other people to use
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2017-05-19T13:42:05Z |3b| 's original spec is at https://github.com/3b/package-local-nicknames/blob/master/docs.org
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2017-05-19T13:43:44Z |3b|: at this point, probably would be best to just write up what SBCL does as a CDR if someone has the interest and time
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2017-05-19T13:49:01Z jackdaniel: SBCL specifies some of its internal quirks (like interaction with package locks) - I think that this part should be skipped for CDR
2017-05-19T13:49:34Z |3b|: yeah, that sounds reasonable
2017-05-19T13:50:16Z |3b|: unless someone wants to write a CDR for those too, and then specify the interaction in terms of that :)
2017-05-19T13:50:57Z jackdaniel: that could hinder the adoption. for instance ECL lock slighly different set of things in packages afair, same thing may go for ABCL and CCL
2017-05-19T13:51:24Z |3b|: well, if they didn't match the description in the locking CDR, it wouldn't apply to them
2017-05-19T13:51:36Z |3b| isn't really suggesting that seriously anyway though
2017-05-19T13:51:40Z jackdaniel: :-)
2017-05-19T13:55:15Z |3b|: would be nice to see local nicknames implemented more widely though, so  it would have a chance of actually solving the original problem (libs nicknamed JSON and GL)
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2017-05-19T13:56:12Z |3b|: though i think one of the GL's got renamed at some point
2017-05-19T13:57:48Z jackdaniel: yes, in clx
2017-05-19T13:57:53Z jackdaniel: my doing to avoid conflict :)
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2017-05-19T14:47:49Z fourier: how to get OS environment variables in a portable way?
2017-05-19T14:49:41Z fourier: i've seen here: http://cl-cookbook.sourceforge.net/os.html but just want to get some library instead of copy-pasting
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2017-05-19T14:50:51Z jackdaniel: fourier: osicat
2017-05-19T14:51:03Z jackdaniel: requires only ffi support from the implementation
2017-05-19T14:51:09Z jackdaniel: works across POSIX and Windows
2017-05-19T14:51:34Z jackdaniel: you also get uniform pathname interface
2017-05-19T14:54:17Z fourier: jackdaniel: thanks, it looks exactly like what I needed
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2017-05-19T15:56:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is there a good way to run only one method of a generic function?
2017-05-19T15:56:33Z beach: mop method-function
2017-05-19T15:56:33Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/method-function.html
2017-05-19T15:57:23Z beach: You have to make sure you respect the signature.
2017-05-19T15:57:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: I guess I'd use compute-effective method or something to get the method I want?
2017-05-19T15:57:47Z beach: clhs find-method
2017-05-19T15:57:47Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_find_m.htm
2017-05-19T15:58:02Z beach: mop generic-function-methods
2017-05-19T15:58:02Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/generic-function-methods.html
2017-05-19T15:58:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, this is for testing purposes: I want to be able to test the primary method independently of any :around, :before or :after methods that are defined
2017-05-19T15:58:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: thanks
2017-05-19T15:58:17Z beach: Anytime.
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2017-05-19T17:03:27Z epipping: phoe: hi. are you working on lzma decoding now?
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2017-05-19T17:06:16Z epipping: phoe: I don't know what your application is and thus whether you have any control over the choice of format but I wanted to share this link with you in case you hadn't seen it: http://lzip.nongnu.org
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2017-05-19T17:07:29Z epipping: phoe: I find the arguments he (A. D. D.) makes quite convincing and have switched to lzip wherever I can.
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2017-05-19T17:17:22Z phoe: epipping:
2017-05-19T17:17:26Z phoe: I am working on it, yes
2017-05-19T17:17:48Z phoe: and no, I have no control here
2017-05-19T17:18:09Z phoe: if I had, I'd use one of the formats already supported by Lisp - most likely deflate
2017-05-19T17:18:12Z epipping: phoe: ah, you're dealing with an existing set of .xz files?
2017-05-19T17:18:59Z phoe: not .xz
2017-05-19T17:19:01Z phoe: .lzma
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2017-05-19T17:57:48Z hjudt: PuercoPop: lately i got into using uikit (https://getuikit.com). one problem i have with it and spinneret is that it uses div attributes like <div uk-drop> (example here: https://getuikit.com/docs/drop). any idea how one can produce something like that with spinneret?
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2017-05-19T18:02:41Z hjudt: :div :uk-drop doesn't work, as it requires a value for the keyword uk-drop, and t doesn't do it (result: <div uk-drop=true>) while nil removes the attribute
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2017-05-19T18:20:10Z hjudt: ok, please ignore this; :uk-drop t works, though it produces uk-drop=true.
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2017-05-19T20:34:57Z mason: Hey all... Has the ALU gone belly-up? Was looking for conference plans and I don't see any - and alu.org seems to be down.
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2017-05-19T20:54:43Z aeth: For a while at this point, I think. I have been using archive.org as my MOP reference for months now. https://web.archive.org/web/20161115145419/http://alu.org/mop/index.html
2017-05-19T20:55:00Z aeth: I don't recall when, but that's from November, so it could be 6 months now.
2017-05-19T20:59:50Z mason: aeth: Hrm. Unfortunate. Thanks.
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2017-05-19T21:45:05Z jasom: how do I tell LOOP that the value it is summing into with sum will always be a fixnum?
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2017-05-19T21:46:21Z Bike: "sum whatever into variablename fixnum"
2017-05-19T21:46:26Z Bike: i don't know how to do it anonymously
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2017-05-19T21:47:42Z Bike: "sum whatever fixnum" does it, if i'm reading right
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2017-05-19T23:21:11Z jasom: Bike: thanks, that did the trick
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2017-05-19T23:34:17Z axion: Hmm, Xach. Waiting for the QL news site to be refreshed after several days now :)
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