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This problem that has plagued us for 3 years is finally solved. Thank you very much for your input. 2017-05-18T01:42:27Z enzuru joined #lisp 2017-05-18T01:43:57Z zulu_inuoe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-05-18T01:49:05Z chens joined #lisp 2017-05-18T01:53:07Z hugo_dc joined #lisp 2017-05-18T01:56:52Z d4ryus1 joined #lisp 2017-05-18T01:57:47Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-05-18T01:59:48Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-05-18T02:00:57Z enzuru quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-18T02:04:35Z qaros joined #lisp 2017-05-18T02:07:44Z ryanwatk` joined #lisp 2017-05-18T02:09:11Z ryanwatkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-18T02:11:57Z whoman: eheh https://github.com/sjl/cl-ggp/blob/master/src/ggp.lisp#L216 2017-05-18T02:13:43Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-05-18T02:15:03Z safe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-05-18T02:18:53Z papachan joined #lisp 2017-05-18T02:22:57Z papachan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-18T02:33:20Z safe joined #lisp 2017-05-18T02:37:52Z mejja joined #lisp 2017-05-18T02:38:18Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2017-05-18T02:41:27Z rumbler3_ joined #lisp 2017-05-18T02:45:44Z pilne quit (Quit: Quitting!) 2017-05-18T02:45:44Z rumbler3_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-05-18T02:57:16Z enzuru joined #lisp 2017-05-18T03:03:05Z enzuru quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2017-05-18T03:05:43Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-05-18T03:07:25Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2017-05-18T03:10:19Z shifty joined #lisp 2017-05-18T03:13:59Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-05-18T03:17:29Z diphuser joined #lisp 2017-05-18T03:39:37Z xrash joined #lisp 2017-05-18T03:41:27Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-05-18T03:45:26Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-05-18T03:45:35Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-05-18T03:51:26Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-05-18T03:51:51Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-05-18T03:53:35Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-05-18T03:56:58Z chens quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-05-18T03:57:42Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2017-05-18T03:58:24Z enzuru joined #lisp 2017-05-18T04:03:00Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-05-18T04:03:37Z enzuru quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-05-18T04:04:06Z diphuser quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-18T04:04:37Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2017-05-18T04:05:32Z hugo_dc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-18T04:09:49Z sfa joined #lisp 2017-05-18T04:14:34Z ryan_vw joined #lisp 2017-05-18T04:16:45Z John[Lisbeth]: what is the lisp equivelent of tail in haskell where you fetch the tail of a list 2017-05-18T04:17:03Z whoman: cdr 2017-05-18T04:17:32Z John[Lisbeth]: oh wow I thougth cdr fetched the second item in a list 2017-05-18T04:17:35Z John[Lisbeth]: this explains alot of issues 2017-05-18T04:17:38Z John[Lisbeth]: thanks 2017-05-18T04:17:57Z whoman: ^_^ np 2017-05-18T04:18:50Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-05-18T04:19:21Z Bike: also first/rest, which are more obviously analogous to head/tail. 2017-05-18T04:19:24Z beach: whoman: You realize that John[Lisbeth] has been learning Common Lisp for almost 2 years, right? 2017-05-18T04:20:05Z whoman: beach, no, i did not realise this 2017-05-18T04:20:05Z yeticry joined #lisp 2017-05-18T04:20:33Z beach: 15.07.26:10:31:22 I am on the learn lisp the hard way website, and I can't get to the next page in the tutorial 2017-05-18T04:20:38Z whoman: 5 minutes a day for two years wouldnt count the same as 8 hours a day for 2 years. 2017-05-18T04:20:57Z John[Lisbeth]: I was on forth for the last year 2017-05-18T04:21:07Z beach: whoman: True, but CDR/REST is typically in the first few hours. 2017-05-18T04:23:06Z axion: John[Lisbeth]: I'm impressed. You actually thanked us this time. 2017-05-18T04:23:14Z whoman: sorry i do not know what to say, there are some really simple and common things that not everyone learns at the same time as others. 2017-05-18T04:23:22Z axion: Usually you hit and run :) 2017-05-18T04:23:25Z whoman will probably never learn loop 2017-05-18T04:23:33Z John[Lisbeth]: It is mainly cause I always use nth 2017-05-18T04:23:39Z John[Lisbeth]: so I rarely use car and cdr 2017-05-18T04:23:49Z John[Lisbeth]: and I often program mutably so I am not processing lists as much as arrays and hash tables 2017-05-18T04:24:22Z whoman: fair enough =) 2017-05-18T04:24:25Z John[Lisbeth]: Though right now I am programming immutably and I have a function that takes arbitrary arguments and I have a list of values and I want to feed that function the list of values as it's aguments 2017-05-18T04:24:38Z whoman: and for contrast, i know cdr, but never have actually ever used it. 2017-05-18T04:25:22Z Research joined #lisp 2017-05-18T04:25:33Z axion: i tend to use cdr when dealing with cons cells, and rest when dealing with lists, as a means to help self-document my code. 2017-05-18T04:28:24Z whoman: i like that and i will be doing the same 2017-05-18T04:31:05Z Research quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-05-18T04:31:57Z vtomole joined #lisp 2017-05-18T04:32:13Z Research joined #lisp 2017-05-18T04:32:20Z Research left #lisp 2017-05-18T04:35:00Z mejja quit (Quit: \ No newline at end of file) 2017-05-18T04:35:04Z emaczen: What advice do you all have about "passing along" errors i.e. a handler gets invoked which then determines some state information and then calls error again with a new condition -- is this strange or common? 2017-05-18T04:36:28Z axion: You mean like restarts? Not uncommon at all 2017-05-18T04:36:55Z emacsoma` quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-05-18T04:36:57Z whoman: exceptions very encouraged afaik 2017-05-18T04:37:32Z Bike: that doesn't sound like a restart to me, rather resignaling, which is ok 2017-05-18T04:39:54Z Tex_Nick quit (Quit: In Linux, We Trust) 2017-05-18T04:42:50Z emaczen: axion: to be clear, I have a handler-bind which invokes a restart, and then the restart calls a method which checks some state and then calls error with a condition determined by the state that was checked -- that sounds like 'resignaling,' is this normal? 2017-05-18T04:43:43Z axion: while i haven't done it before, I don't see why that wouldnt be okay. 2017-05-18T04:48:12Z emaczen: axion: alright, I think I might see a simplification -- at least I'm not doing something ridiculous or crazy haha 2017-05-18T04:49:07Z emaczen: this is my first time using the condition system non-trivially, I think I am understanding the finer modularity of it as contrasted with traditional try/catch 2017-05-18T04:50:27Z Bike: that i've never seen before. 2017-05-18T04:50:41Z Bike: why doesn't the original error call check the state? 2017-05-18T04:50:48Z beach: Exception handling is broken in most languages other than Common Lisp. Multics PL/I is one exception. 2017-05-18T04:51:09Z emaczen: Bike: give me a second to checkout the simplification I might be seeing 2017-05-18T04:51:45Z axion: I love seeing people use/learn CL's condition/restart system. It is far under-used, nd beach is 100% right. 2017-05-18T04:56:04Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-05-18T04:57:35Z emaczen: what can be inside the lambda-list of a restart-case name? 2017-05-18T04:58:57Z Bike: according to the clhs, it's an ordinary lambda list. so anything that works for defun. 2017-05-18T04:59:27Z enzuru joined #lisp 2017-05-18T05:00:30Z Guest6344 joined #lisp 2017-05-18T05:01:01Z emaczen: Bike: Yeah, I think I see what I can do with it now -- I put some print statements and some breaks in my restart-case and handler-bind forms 2017-05-18T05:01:01Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-05-18T05:02:17Z emaczen: Bike: my answer to your previous question is that my condition doesn't have any information in it to recover from, but the parent-scope does, so I can pass that information to the restart 2017-05-18T05:02:34Z Bike: oh. 2017-05-18T05:02:54Z Bike: so why do you signal the new error in the restart rather than the condition handler? 2017-05-18T05:03:56Z emaczen: Yeah, that was the simplification that I saw 2017-05-18T05:04:03Z sfa quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-05-18T05:04:08Z emaczen: or something similar -- I'm still moving things around 2017-05-18T05:07:20Z emaczen: Beach: What about more purely functional languages that have those Monads for error handling? How does that compare? 2017-05-18T05:07:40Z dec0n joined #lisp 2017-05-18T05:08:22Z emaczen: I can barely remember a Try Monad, and it was like "wrapping" around a value, or there was also a Maybe Monad, and you wrapped it around a value too. 2017-05-18T05:08:27Z Bike: you can use them for continuations, so you could have something like the lisp condition system 2017-05-18T05:08:34Z Bike: i don't know if anyone actually does 2017-05-18T05:08:38Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-05-18T05:08:53Z enzuru quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-05-18T05:08:57Z loke`: Bike: It's popular to hate on exceptions these days. :-) 2017-05-18T05:09:17Z loke`: Because Go and Rust don't have them, I guess? 2017-05-18T05:09:28Z Bike: a long time ago a haskell programmer told me they don't like restarts because they kill referential transparency 2017-05-18T05:09:58Z loke`: Bike: Yeah... because RT make sit soo easy to make an application that actually does useful work... 2017-05-18T05:10:23Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-05-18T05:10:24Z test1600 joined #lisp 2017-05-18T05:12:43Z John[Lisbeth]: Bike (eval (list 'defun 'foo () 2)) http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/913/758/a12.jpg 2017-05-18T05:12:57Z Bike: what 2017-05-18T05:13:04Z John[Lisbeth]: u herd me 2017-05-18T05:13:05Z rpg quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-18T05:13:24Z John[Lisbeth]: I hath provided defun a symbol 2017-05-18T05:13:42Z Bike: yes, and i responded with "what", as to indicate my lack of understanding of the sound (or script) so produced 2017-05-18T05:14:30Z John[Lisbeth]: You have told me for years it was impossible 2017-05-18T05:14:39Z enzuru joined #lisp 2017-05-18T05:14:39Z John[Lisbeth]: gtg buying milk 2017-05-18T05:14:45Z Bike: what? no i didn't 2017-05-18T05:14:51Z whoman: go, rust, kotlin, lua, can all just ... 2017-05-18T05:15:30Z John[Lisbeth]: do an m-r on John[Lisbeth] and defun 2017-05-18T05:15:36Z John[Lisbeth]: I'm sure you'll find some good material 2017-05-18T05:16:26Z John[Lisbeth]: Thats what happens when support channels try to lie to me is I slowly figure out they are lying and circumvent their best practices 2017-05-18T05:16:54Z Bike: i just checked my logs and nothing looks relevant 2017-05-18T05:17:44Z Bike: and everybody uses https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie-to-children because explaining arithmetic through peano wouldn't work and doesn't have much to do with actual practice 2017-05-18T05:18:17Z Bike: but if you're going to be hostile and reject help for like, three years on end, then it would be best for everybody if you fucked off 2017-05-18T05:19:11Z flip214: John[Lisbeth]: you didn't pass DEFUN a symbol, but LIST. 2017-05-18T05:19:38Z Bike: seriously, i don't even know what you're on about 2017-05-18T05:21:02Z Bike: and if you actually need to define a function with a variable name it would be better to use (setf fdefinition) than eval. 2017-05-18T05:21:29Z enzuru quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-05-18T05:23:47Z smoon joined #lisp 2017-05-18T05:25:40Z emaczen: hah they have terminology for lie-to-children! 2017-05-18T05:26:19Z emaczen: Chemistry is probably one of the worst examples with all of those strange bonding rules and then they tell you ohh it doesn't really work like that. 2017-05-18T05:27:08Z Bike: i think every biology class i took directly contradicted an earlier one. 2017-05-18T05:27:13Z Bike: central dogma my ass 2017-05-18T05:27:36Z sfa joined #lisp 2017-05-18T05:27:49Z vtomole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-05-18T05:27:57Z emaczen: my opinion would be that lie-to-children is probably more confusing to children (but I was/am more literal) 2017-05-18T05:29:32Z safe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-05-18T05:29:49Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-18T05:29:52Z oleo quit (Quit: irc client terminated!) 2017-05-18T05:29:56Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2017-05-18T05:33:47Z John[Lisbeth]: I wouldn't call it help I would call it only answering a small piece of the question and if that piece isn't the solution then insist someone reads an entire book on lisp which I simply wont doe 2017-05-18T05:33:48Z John[Lisbeth]: *do 2017-05-18T05:33:59Z John[Lisbeth]: I often don't come here just because the support is so bad 2017-05-18T05:34:05Z Bike: well that takes us back to "fuck off" 2017-05-18T05:34:20Z John[Lisbeth]: lawlz I do most often but sometiems I am desparate for some lisp code 2017-05-18T05:34:31Z Bike: you've been here two years, you could have read a 200 page book in a day 2017-05-18T05:34:46Z John[Lisbeth]: Could have? Yes. Should have? Definitely not. 2017-05-18T05:35:02Z emacsoma` joined #lisp 2017-05-18T05:35:04Z John[Lisbeth]: I have never read a single programming book. I only skimmed and googled 2017-05-18T05:35:08Z Bike: why 2017-05-18T05:35:15Z John[Lisbeth]: It is more efficient 2017-05-18T05:35:25Z Bike: see, that's why i contrasted "two years" versus "one day" 2017-05-18T05:35:38Z Bike: the obvious conclusion is you could have saved everybody a whole lot of time, including yourself 2017-05-18T05:35:57Z John[Lisbeth]: I don't see it as a whole lot of your time I usually only ask a handful of questions every year 2017-05-18T05:36:04Z John[Lisbeth]: and it is a lisp support channel 2017-05-18T05:36:10Z Bike: what about yours? 2017-05-18T05:36:17Z loke`: John[Lisbeth]: It's not actually a support channel. 2017-05-18T05:36:21Z Bike: it took you two years to realize you could use eval with defun? that's ridiculous. 2017-05-18T05:36:24Z John[Lisbeth]: If I had started by reading programming books I would still be on c++ 2017-05-18T05:36:28Z emaczen: John[Lisbeth]: Why are you desperate for some lisp code? 2017-05-18T05:36:45Z John[Lisbeth]: Because I don't know the names of the functions I need usually 2017-05-18T05:36:50Z John[Lisbeth]: or I don't know the macro for it 2017-05-18T05:36:55Z John[Lisbeth]: ANd that is only when I cant find it on google first 2017-05-18T05:36:57Z flip214: John[Lisbeth]: learning yourself is quite useful - but soaking up pre-condensed knowledge via a good book is much faster. 2017-05-18T05:37:13Z John[Lisbeth]: I dunno I have not read a programming book in the 7 years that I have been learning code. 2017-05-18T05:37:24Z Bike: which is presumably why it has taken seven years 2017-05-18T05:37:25Z flip214: perhaps it's time to start. 2017-05-18T05:37:39Z John[Lisbeth]: And yet here I am in emacs --daemon && emacsclient -t inside of a termianl in a vm in ms azure programming in emacs and lisp and forth and javascript 2017-05-18T05:37:45Z John[Lisbeth]: did I learn programming? yes 2017-05-18T05:37:48Z John[Lisbeth]: did I read books? no 2017-05-18T05:37:49Z Bike: you don't seriously think that will impress us. 2017-05-18T05:37:53Z John[Lisbeth]: Nope 2017-05-18T05:38:05Z Bike: you're opposed to books. that's like a villain in a kids tv show. 2017-05-18T05:38:07Z whoman: the web is the new book. update yo'self 2017-05-18T05:38:15Z John[Lisbeth]: I am not opposed to books I Just do not like to read them 2017-05-18T05:38:23Z Bike: academic. 2017-05-18T05:38:26Z John[Lisbeth]: WHen you google somethign it's like nosql 2017-05-18T05:38:30Z John[Lisbeth]: when you read it's like sql 2017-05-18T05:38:31Z whoman: same. i learned from ... code. and coding. and debugging. 2017-05-18T05:38:49Z John[Lisbeth]: Google is like a hash table for code snippes of all languages 2017-05-18T05:39:00Z Bike: You read a book, or a tutorial, or /something/, to get a foundation, and you code to get actual practice, and you ask questions to fill in the blanks that can't reasonably be written down. 2017-05-18T05:39:01Z emaczen: if you are just glueing crap together then sure 2017-05-18T05:39:02Z whoman: digital words on a screen are not that much different than inked words on paper. give or take some lumens. 2017-05-18T05:39:06Z John[Lisbeth]: Again you forget 2017-05-18T05:39:12Z John[Lisbeth]: if I had been reading books I would still be on c++ 2017-05-18T05:39:21Z Bike: that sure is an assertion. 2017-05-18T05:39:24Z aeth: read SICP 2017-05-18T05:39:38Z John[Lisbeth]: That is if I follow all the languages I learned c++ > bash > haskell > lisp > forth > javascript 2017-05-18T05:39:42Z Bike: anyway, what really bugs me here isn't hte books, but the hostility. 2017-05-18T05:39:47Z emaczen: John[Lisbeth]: there is a balance between purely reading and purely googling/coding 2017-05-18T05:39:57Z John[Lisbeth]: IF I had stopped and mastered each of those languages before moving on to the next one I would still be stuck on some of the earlier languages 2017-05-18T05:40:07Z Bike: so now you half-know all six? 2017-05-18T05:40:15Z John[Lisbeth]: no I ditch one as soon as I am done with it 2017-05-18T05:40:22Z Bike: can you skip ahead to that part 2017-05-18T05:40:23Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-05-18T05:40:24Z John[Lisbeth]: I ditched c++ and bash fast. Haskell took me 2 years to ditch 2017-05-18T05:40:35Z whoman: the languages aren't exactly "linear" like that, outside of your experience with them, John[Lisbeth] 2017-05-18T05:41:01Z John[Lisbeth]: All I know is if I find out the language I am using is crappy I toss it for the next best thing. But Lisp an forth do everything I want 2017-05-18T05:41:05Z John[Lisbeth]: so I dont have to ditch those 2017-05-18T05:41:08Z doesthiswork quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-05-18T05:41:11Z Bike: congratulations, you can use eval. you have defeated the evil bike. Now you can move on to a good language like snobol. 2017-05-18T05:41:25Z John[Lisbeth]: Yes and I am proud I defeated you withotu reading a book 2017-05-18T05:41:35Z John[Lisbeth]: It makes me feel good knowing I did not have to read a book to get the answer 2017-05-18T05:41:37Z John[Lisbeth]: good ol google 2017-05-18T05:41:39Z enzuru joined #lisp 2017-05-18T05:41:41Z Bike: It's a joke! There wasn't a contest! I have no god damned idea what you are on about! 2017-05-18T05:41:53Z Bike: In 2017 you have not used the word "defun" in my logs before today. 2017-05-18T05:42:01Z John[Lisbeth]: I am on about you guys are bad at supporting list and thus unreliable for the community 2017-05-18T05:42:13Z whoman: John[Lisbeth], just curious, how come haskell didnt work out? 2017-05-18T05:42:17Z John[Lisbeth]: its shit 2017-05-18T05:42:18Z John[Lisbeth]: no macros 2017-05-18T05:42:21Z kjeldahl joined #lisp 2017-05-18T05:42:23Z Bike: Hang on, so somebody else said this to you, and now you're taking it out on me? 2017-05-18T05:42:41Z Bike: What is your damage? 2017-05-18T05:43:06Z John[Lisbeth]: If you try to help someone by telling them that they don't understand what they want then youa re doing something fundimentally wrong. When I ask you a question I know what question I am trying to ask 2017-05-18T05:43:26Z sukaeto: I would just like to interject: this is the weirdest conversation I've read/heard in a long time 2017-05-18T05:43:45Z John[Lisbeth]: Well I dont come on here often cause the channel is so unreliable. I talk like this normally 2017-05-18T05:44:20Z whoman thinking quietly to self: hmm yeah. macros are quite the thing. dont see much public code that uses them really, though. 2017-05-18T05:44:33Z John[Lisbeth]: macros are necessary for me 2017-05-18T05:44:42Z Bike: If you don't like us so much, then - again - fuck off. You evidently don't need our help! I'm not particularly concerned with my help technique. The only person who doesn't seem to like it is throwing LotR memes at me out of context. 2017-05-18T05:45:00Z John[Lisbeth]: I do need your help just you are so unreliable in helping me that I dont often seek it out unless it is an emergency 2017-05-18T05:45:10Z whoman: focus 2017-05-18T05:45:13Z Bike: Nah. Use google. I hear it's like NoSQL. 2017-05-18T05:45:27Z John[Lisbeth]: Google is a hash table for code snippets 2017-05-18T05:45:37Z John[Lisbeth]: It takes less time to google than to read a book 2017-05-18T05:45:44Z Bike: Yep, two years. 2017-05-18T05:45:46Z Bike: I've been on this long enough. 2017-05-18T05:45:54Z John[Lisbeth] away 2017-05-18T05:47:14Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2017-05-18T05:48:04Z enzuru quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-05-18T05:48:20Z Lowl3v3l joined #lisp 2017-05-18T05:51:04Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-05-18T05:51:45Z aeth: whoman: Here's a fancy macro in the wild, probably the fanciest I've personally used: https://gitlab.com/zombie-raptor/zombie-raptor/blob/000f644b2aa673249fc2da64ce115d7a68a073b1/examples/shaders.lisp 2017-05-18T05:52:09Z aeth: It's just GLSL in s-expression form because I kept making stupid syntax errors switching back and forth between CL and GLSL 2017-05-18T05:53:07Z whoman: one of the first reasons i wanted/needed macros is to avoid repetition, and i always dont feel that the world is right when i see heavy repetition in lisp code. going to check out that code now 2017-05-18T05:53:10Z beach: Oh, so that's the impression that some people have, i.e., that #lisp is a "Lisp support channel". 2017-05-18T05:53:25Z whoman: ah yes, that is nice happy code =) 2017-05-18T05:53:41Z aeth: The actual macro is defined here: https://gitlab.com/zombie-raptor/zombie-raptor/blob/000f644b2aa673249fc2da64ce115d7a68a073b1/data/shader.lisp 2017-05-18T05:53:51Z beach: So, these people think they are entitled to get help for free, even though they make no effort whatsoever to follow the advice they get. 2017-05-18T05:54:39Z whoman: not sure what we can say about that here in #lisp, beach =) 2017-05-18T05:54:52Z beach: Right. 2017-05-18T05:55:02Z whoman: aeth, it is pretty, thank you for reviving my faiths =) 2017-05-18T05:55:12Z beach: Bike: I think John[Lisbeth] confused the two of us. Consider it directed to me. 2017-05-18T05:55:18Z whoman tries to dig up the opposite kind of example code 2017-05-18T05:55:30Z beach: 17.05.11:06:49:16 (defun "mystring" () (+ 2 2)) 2017-05-18T05:55:44Z beach: 17.05.11:06:52:45 so (defun (intern "mystring") () (+ 2 2)) shoudl give me no problems 2017-05-18T05:56:03Z beach: 17.05.11:06:56:11 so I can (defun (eval (intern "foo)) () (+ 2 2)) then? 2017-05-18T05:56:07Z aeth: whoman: It's also probably some of the Lispier code I've written because it's macro-expansion-time so I don't worry about performance that much there. It's iirc basically in the style of The Little Schemer. Iirc. 2017-05-18T05:56:12Z Bike: so i got incomprehensibly insulted for even less reason. 2017-05-18T05:56:21Z beach: Yes, I think so. 2017-05-18T05:56:51Z whoman: it is best not to take things personally in this case especially. buddy is just talking "to internet people" and nothing to do with healthy relationships 2017-05-18T05:57:06Z whoman: like if we were an interactive google, perhaps 2017-05-18T05:57:44Z Bike: fuck that. i don't stop being a person when you only know me from text messages. 2017-05-18T05:57:46Z beach: whoman: I certainly don't take criticism from John[Lisbeth] personally. 2017-05-18T05:58:01Z whoman: aeth, cool =) i see optimization stuff too, like declaim. (i dont know much about these yet) but i can feel it is good code. 2017-05-18T05:58:09Z whoman: lol 2017-05-18T05:58:44Z Bike: well, declaim inline is pretty straightforward. just indicates names of functions that should have inline definitions saved and used. 2017-05-18T05:58:48Z aeth: whoman: oh, if you see declaim/declare in the shader stuff and think it's strange, don't look at the stuff that has to run during the game loop 2017-05-18T05:58:49Z whoman: aeth, i want to find this ugly code for you =) racking brain/history 2017-05-18T05:59:10Z Bike: same as the inline "storage modifier" or whatever it is in C 2017-05-18T05:59:21Z whoman: ah yes.. cool =) 2017-05-18T05:59:24Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-05-18T06:00:15Z aeth: (defun foo (x y z) (declare (single-float x y z)) (+ x y z)) ; in most modern implementations, this will type check at safety != 0 and assume types at safety = 0, and use single-float-specific +, not the generic + that operates on the whole numeric tower 2017-05-18T06:04:15Z sfa quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-05-18T06:04:35Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-18T06:04:40Z whoman: i cant find it =( it was much gross. 2017-05-18T06:04:58Z whoman: ah nice =) hinty! 2017-05-18T06:05:34Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-05-18T06:05:57Z aeth joined #lisp 2017-05-18T06:06:10Z eSVG quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-18T06:07:16Z flip214: whoman: clhs declare 2017-05-18T06:07:20Z flip214: clhs declare 2017-05-18T06:07:20Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_declar.htm 2017-05-18T06:07:33Z flip214: ^^ here's the documentation. served via a big hashtable. 2017-05-18T06:07:55Z whoman: hehe =) ouu cool ^_^ 2017-05-18T06:07:56Z whoman: thank you 2017-05-18T06:08:03Z Bike: some of the nuances are harder to get a hang on, unfortunately 2017-05-18T06:08:08Z whoman: i think i have that set up in slime somewhere 2017-05-18T06:10:08Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-18T06:10:20Z neoncont_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-18T06:11:11Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-05-18T06:11:18Z knobo quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2017-05-18T06:11:24Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-05-18T06:12:48Z AlphaAtom joined #lisp 2017-05-18T06:13:28Z ttt72 joined #lisp 2017-05-18T06:16:00Z xrash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-18T06:16:31Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2017-05-18T06:18:46Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2017-05-18T06:19:08Z scymtym_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-18T06:23:05Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-18T06:25:32Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-05-18T06:25:43Z krasnal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-18T06:27:16Z smoon quit (Quit: smoon) 2017-05-18T06:30:34Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-18T06:32:18Z Bock joined #lisp 2017-05-18T06:33:12Z aeth joined #lisp 2017-05-18T06:34:02Z aeth: Terrible timing, the power went out just as I was in the middle of typing two code examples, and the second (that didn't get sent) is the one that was more relevant (on declaim, rather than declare) 2017-05-18T06:35:56Z heurist joined #lisp 2017-05-18T06:37:28Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-05-18T06:40:23Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-05-18T06:40:40Z aeth: declaim goes outside of the defun rather than in the first part, and unlike declare (which has some other common uses like optimization levels) is, at least in my limited experience, almost always just used for inline 2017-05-18T06:41:55Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-05-18T06:43:05Z carlosda1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-18T06:44:06Z enzuru joined #lisp 2017-05-18T06:46:21Z Marumarsu quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-18T06:49:27Z enzuru quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-18T06:49:27Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-18T06:49:30Z slyrus_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-05-18T06:54:07Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-05-18T06:56:34Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2017-05-18T06:56:39Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-18T07:04:24Z slyrus_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-05-18T07:05:35Z lemoinem quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-18T07:07:44Z nirved joined #lisp 2017-05-18T07:11:17Z o1e9 joined #lisp 2017-05-18T07:15:27Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2017-05-18T07:15:48Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-18T07:16:36Z emacsomancer quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-05-18T07:18:43Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-05-18T07:19:10Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-18T07:22:34Z Guest6344 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-05-18T07:26:41Z Cymew joined #lisp 2017-05-18T07:32:15Z AlphaAtom quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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2017-05-18T11:19:31Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-05-18T11:20:48Z shdeng quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-05-18T11:36:55Z Xof joined #lisp 2017-05-18T11:41:00Z orivej quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2017-05-18T11:42:25Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-05-18T11:46:32Z isBEKaml joined #lisp 2017-05-18T11:49:17Z pve joined #lisp 2017-05-18T11:50:44Z Grue` joined #lisp 2017-05-18T11:51:02Z pookleblinky joined #lisp 2017-05-18T11:56:46Z enzuru joined #lisp 2017-05-18T12:00:26Z rpg joined #lisp 2017-05-18T12:01:57Z enzuru quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-18T12:06:28Z beach: phoe: Thanks! 2017-05-18T12:07:58Z TCZ joined #lisp 2017-05-18T12:08:23Z isBEKaml quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-05-18T12:09:13Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-05-18T12:10:05Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-05-18T12:12:56Z ryanwatk` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-18T12:24:17Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-05-18T12:24:51Z splittist: beach: (or anybody) what body of well written, adequately documented code should I be browsing to kick me into thinking protocols rather than objects. (Answers with Swift in them will be ignored.) 2017-05-18T12:28:35Z qaros joined #lisp 2017-05-18T12:30:53Z jackdaniel: MOP is one, CLIM has dozen of protocols (as specification), beach libraries usually are documented around protocols (i.e Cleavir) 2017-05-18T12:31:23Z phoe: splittist: also, beach has publicized a chapter of his book that defines what a protocol is. It's good read - you should poke him for it. 2017-05-18T12:35:18Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-05-18T12:35:18Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2017-05-18T12:35:18Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-05-18T12:40:06Z splittist: jackdaniel: true. 2017-05-18T12:40:16Z splittist: phoe: I shall - thank you. 2017-05-18T12:41:07Z _death: for thinking protocols you shouldn't read code, but specs.. the clim one is the primary example I know of 2017-05-18T12:44:10Z ryanwatkins joined #lisp 2017-05-18T12:49:13Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2017-05-18T12:51:34Z dmcampos joined #lisp 2017-05-18T12:57:07Z yrk joined #lisp 2017-05-18T12:58:15Z enzuru joined #lisp 2017-05-18T12:59:04Z xaotuk joined #lisp 2017-05-18T12:59:15Z TCZ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-05-18T13:00:24Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-05-18T13:00:28Z doesthiswork joined #lisp 2017-05-18T13:03:08Z enzuru quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-18T13:05:29Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-05-18T13:06:22Z xaotuk quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-05-18T13:09:37Z qaros quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-18T13:09:40Z Lowl3v3l joined #lisp 2017-05-18T13:09:45Z beach: splittist: You looked at Cluffer already, right? 2017-05-18T13:09:50Z beach: I think that's a good example. 2017-05-18T13:09:56Z beach: It also has some internal protocols. 2017-05-18T13:10:58Z splittist: beach: I did and I am. Lots of parallels, not surprisingly. 2017-05-18T13:11:36Z beach: splittist: The documentation is fairly complete as well, and specifically talks about protocols. 2017-05-18T13:12:48Z beach: splittist: It is fine to mention classes (in particular protocol classes) in a protocol. And it is fine to mention :INITARGs. But it is not fine to mention slots. 2017-05-18T13:14:57Z splittist: beach: yes. I was just thinking that multiple inheritance avoids many of the problems other languages are re-inventing protocol orientation to ameliorate. 2017-05-18T13:15:27Z cromachina quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-05-18T13:15:46Z beach: Multiple inheritance, but also multiple dispatch. 2017-05-18T13:16:22Z splittist: a multiplicity of multiplicities 2017-05-18T13:17:45Z dim: multiple dispatch but also dispatch on all types (hash-table, list, array) not just “objects”, and including dispatch on specific values (eq dispatch)... 2017-05-18T13:18:13Z jackdaniel: well, CL multiple dispatch doesn't work on types 2017-05-18T13:18:19Z jackdaniel: only on objects and eql 2017-05-18T13:18:24Z jackdaniel: hash-table is built-in class 2017-05-18T13:20:31Z mazoe quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-05-18T13:22:35Z dim: yeah, sorry for the term abuse 2017-05-18T13:22:58Z dim: what I mean is that standard types are objects as far as dispatch is concerned, you can actually dispatch on list 2017-05-18T13:23:34Z beach: More importantly, some types are also CLASSES. 2017-05-18T13:23:48Z dim: (defmethod flatten ((x list)) (reduce 'append (mapcar 'flatten x))) 2017-05-18T13:23:49Z dim: (defmethod flatten (x) (list x)) 2017-05-18T13:23:52Z dim: you could write that 2017-05-18T13:24:24Z jackdaniel: yes, but for instance double-float is a type, but spec doesn't mandate being it built-in class 2017-05-18T13:24:26Z beach: Yes, and that's because LIST is a "system class". 2017-05-18T13:24:38Z jackdaniel: so you can specialize on float, but specializing on double-float is implementation dependent 2017-05-18T13:25:02Z jackdaniel: this is very useful diagram: http://sellout.github.io/2012/03/03/common-lisp-type-hierarchy/ 2017-05-18T13:25:43Z dim: in Java you can't do anything with an int, you need to use an Integer, but you can't say Integer + Integer, it's Integer.add() 2017-05-18T13:25:47Z dim: anyway, I love that parts of CLOS 2017-05-18T13:26:56Z Xach: dim: long before i knew anything about lisp, jwz's rant about BigInteger math struck me. 2017-05-18T13:27:03Z LiamH joined #lisp 2017-05-18T13:27:17Z dim: very good diagram, thanks jackdaniel 2017-05-18T13:27:40Z ttt72 joined #lisp 2017-05-18T13:28:06Z dim: I don't know about that article Xach, but I know I refused to admit that Java like OOP was anything useful to write good code and then “saw light” when finally read about CLOS 2017-05-18T13:28:25Z Xach: https://www.jwz.org/doc/java.html 2017-05-18T13:29:02Z Xach: (jwz's rants also helped me grok that you can refer to and work with "objects" without having direct language support) 2017-05-18T13:30:54Z Xach: something i also saw reinforced when alvy ray smith explained his object-oriented implementation of sprite image editing in C... 2017-05-18T13:31:09Z dddddd joined #lisp 2017-05-18T13:34:24Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2017-05-18T13:34:31Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2017-05-18T13:37:31Z beaky quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-18T13:39:05Z beaky joined #lisp 2017-05-18T13:39:45Z j0ni_ is now known as j0ni 2017-05-18T13:40:12Z papachan quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-05-18T13:44:39Z oleo joined #lisp 2017-05-18T13:45:50Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-05-18T13:48:13Z dddddd quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-05-18T13:48:19Z burtons quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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Or is the best way to just get access to that OS? 2017-05-18T14:21:42Z jackdaniel: what do you mean, that you don't have access to it? putting executables to system you have no access to would be breaking its security :-) 2017-05-18T14:21:50Z Xach: doby162: That sounds like an interesting challenge, but it does not seem especially lispy. 2017-05-18T14:22:57Z doby162: Lol, I mean cross compilation. I'm writing a game 2017-05-18T14:23:47Z jackdaniel: ah 2017-05-18T14:24:09Z doby162: If not I can just write a powershell script that installs everything. 2017-05-18T14:25:10Z phoe: doby162: which OS is this? Windows? 2017-05-18T14:25:35Z phoe: I have had some success with running SBCL on wine under linux. 2017-05-18T14:26:56Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2017-05-18T14:27:20Z doby162: Yeah, the target OS is windows. I'll try wine! 2017-05-18T14:28:45Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-05-18T14:28:48Z phoe: note that CCL does not work under wine AFAIK, though CCL is one of the two suggested implementations for Windows (the other being SBCL). 2017-05-18T14:29:01Z phoe: actually not AFAIK, I've tried it - and failed miserably 2017-05-18T14:29:46Z Xach: i've heard about a number of people using wine for that 2017-05-18T14:29:46Z doby162: I use sbcl by default so I'll probably start with that. I saw some old google groups discussions about cross compilation but they all linked back to http://sbcl-internals.cliki.net/ which seems to be dead 2017-05-18T14:29:56Z dddddd quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-05-18T14:33:10Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2017-05-18T14:34:07Z |3b|: they were probably talking about building the base sbcl executables rather normal user programs, and even for that you still need to run the final part on the target platform 2017-05-18T14:34:47Z |3b|: (and some of the intermediate parts as well i think, so it can detect features of the target environment) 2017-05-18T14:35:05Z rpg quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-05-18T14:35:23Z pookleblinky quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2) 2017-05-18T14:35:45Z pookleblinky joined #lisp 2017-05-18T14:43:33Z phoe: ^ 2017-05-18T14:43:45Z phoe: you will need to test on Windows nonetheless 2017-05-18T14:43:55Z phoe: because the OS-specific integration is a pain in the ass 2017-05-18T14:44:03Z phoe is dealing with it right now 2017-05-18T14:44:21Z phoe: my solution so far - grab a RAM upgrade and run Windows inside VMs for testing purposes 2017-05-18T14:45:37Z doby162: Lol, maybe I'll just ask to use someone else's computer every time I make a release 2017-05-18T14:46:41Z phoe: doby162: haha 2017-05-18T14:46:47Z phoe: I seriously wish you luck. 2017-05-18T14:46:56Z phoe: and hope you have more of it than I do. 2017-05-18T14:47:08Z phoe: because Windows is an idiotic platform to build for. 2017-05-18T14:48:35Z burtons joined #lisp 2017-05-18T14:49:31Z doby162: Yeah. Eventually, given unlimited dev time, the plan is to write the game's client in javascript or something that compiles to javascript and have it be a browser game. The client is basically just an ncurses UI for the server, where all the logic happens 2017-05-18T14:49:33Z teggi joined #lisp 2017-05-18T14:50:14Z doby162: Unlimited dev time has been a tough mark to hit so far though 2017-05-18T14:50:20Z pjb: doby162: you could write a CL compiler that would generate lower level lisp source code. Then you could in an installation phase, compile and load this low-level (perhaps obfuscated) lisp source on the target systems. 2017-05-18T14:51:59Z doby162: That seems like more effort than a windows script to automatically download and install sbcl/quicklisp + my github repo. 2017-05-18T14:52:36Z doby162: That said, is cross compiling an achievable goal for sbcl? I'm not exactly a seasoned hacker but it could be a thing to work on someday 2017-05-18T14:56:30Z rpg joined #lisp 2017-05-18T14:58:31Z slyrus_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-05-18T14:59:08Z _death quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-05-18T14:59:49Z payphone quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.7.1) 2017-05-18T15:00:27Z enzuru joined #lisp 2017-05-18T15:03:08Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2017-05-18T15:03:37Z dmcampos quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-05-18T15:04:28Z dddddd joined #lisp 2017-05-18T15:05:27Z enzuru quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-18T15:13:12Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-05-18T15:21:20Z prole joined #lisp 2017-05-18T15:22:26Z kmb joined #lisp 2017-05-18T15:25:09Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-05-18T15:25:25Z rippa joined #lisp 2017-05-18T15:25:36Z pookleblinky quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2) 2017-05-18T15:27:05Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-05-18T15:30:03Z pookleblinky joined #lisp 2017-05-18T15:31:08Z rpg joined #lisp 2017-05-18T15:34:56Z _cosmonaut_ quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-05-18T15:37:24Z _death joined #lisp 2017-05-18T15:38:43Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-05-18T15:38:54Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Hibernate, reboot, exeunt, etc.) 2017-05-18T15:39:04Z paule32 joined #lisp 2017-05-18T15:39:08Z paule32: hello 2017-05-18T15:39:29Z paule32: in python, there are following code possible: "for iteration in xrange(number_of_training_iterations):" 2017-05-18T15:39:50Z paule32: what is the coresponding code in lisp? 2017-05-18T15:40:03Z axion: (loop for i from x to y do ..) 2017-05-18T15:40:17Z Lowl3v3l quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-05-18T15:40:38Z paule32: thx 2017-05-18T15:41:59Z axion: paule32: There are many ways to do it 2017-05-18T15:42:21Z axion: Can you give an example of exactly what you are trying to accomplish? 2017-05-18T15:46:02Z dddddd quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-05-18T15:53:16Z _death quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2017-05-18T15:54:40Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-05-18T15:55:20Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-05-18T15:57:21Z ttt72 quit (Quit: ttt72) 2017-05-18T15:57:32Z schoppenhauer quit (Read error: Connection timed out) 2017-05-18T15:59:49Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-05-18T16:01:37Z enzuru joined #lisp 2017-05-18T16:02:40Z dddddd joined #lisp 2017-05-18T16:04:29Z o1e9 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-05-18T16:04:55Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2017-05-18T16:06:25Z enzuru quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-05-18T16:08:55Z _death joined #lisp 2017-05-18T16:09:41Z Grue` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-05-18T16:10:33Z xaotuk joined #lisp 2017-05-18T16:13:40Z _death quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-05-18T16:18:00Z AlphaAtom joined #lisp 2017-05-18T16:18:26Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-05-18T16:18:43Z fraya joined #lisp 2017-05-18T16:19:13Z jasom: paule32: if you don't need a counter (loop repeat number-of-training-iterations ...) is preferred 2017-05-18T16:19:42Z enzuru joined #lisp 2017-05-18T16:20:05Z heurist quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-18T16:20:36Z heurist joined #lisp 2017-05-18T16:23:09Z jasom: doby162: sbcl for windows works great under wine for building, but as others have said, you may want to test on a windows vm occasionally 2017-05-18T16:23:10Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-05-18T16:24:51Z enzuru quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-05-18T16:25:41Z Kaisyu quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-05-18T16:28:18Z doby162: Awesome. Yeah, the only hitch I'm expecting is that croatoan might need another patch to run on windows. I had to patch it for mac 2017-05-18T16:28:23Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2017-05-18T16:28:31Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-05-18T16:28:34Z doby162: Nothing complicated at all, just finding where the files go 2017-05-18T16:29:05Z whoman joined #lisp 2017-05-18T16:29:17Z papachan joined #lisp 2017-05-18T16:32:07Z rpg joined #lisp 2017-05-18T16:32:28Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2017-05-18T16:36:04Z mazoe joined #lisp 2017-05-18T16:38:24Z xaotuk quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-05-18T16:38:35Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-18T16:39:09Z paule32: where the mistake: http://codepad.org/AzWfOqnR 2017-05-18T16:39:12Z paule32: ? 2017-05-18T16:39:47Z fraya left #lisp 2017-05-18T16:40:15Z _death joined #lisp 2017-05-18T16:40:44Z Bike: '(number_of_training_iterations) is just a one element list. 2017-05-18T16:40:47Z loke: paule32: Before anything else, please try to use standard code style. No one puts closing parens on its own line. 2017-05-18T16:40:49Z beach: paule32: The first mistake is that you have whitespace preceding closing parentheses. 2017-05-18T16:41:25Z beach: paule32: Three semicolons are used for top-level comments, not for comments inside a function. 2017-05-18T16:41:35Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-18T16:41:36Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-05-18T16:41:42Z loke: paule32: You can't just put parens around a list of forns to group them. You are probably looking for PROGN. 2017-05-18T16:41:46Z beach: paule32: And your indentation is off. The LOOP clause is incorrectly indented. 2017-05-18T16:42:12Z beach: paule32: And you are very likely using SETF on undefined variables. 2017-05-18T16:42:30Z beach: paule32: You have already been told about these problems. Please fix them before you submit code. 2017-05-18T16:43:07Z AlphaAtom quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2017-05-18T16:43:18Z shka_ joined #lisp 2017-05-18T16:43:28Z doby162 quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2017-05-18T16:44:06Z oleksiyp joined #lisp 2017-05-18T16:46:29Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2017-05-18T16:49:14Z _death quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-05-18T16:50:55Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-05-18T16:52:09Z RedEight joined #lisp 2017-05-18T16:52:38Z mazoe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-18T16:55:46Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2017-05-18T16:56:05Z stardiviner quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-05-18T16:56:55Z pilne joined #lisp 2017-05-18T16:57:48Z pookleblinky quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-18T16:57:50Z paule32: loke: how progn works? 2017-05-18T16:58:16Z jasom: paule32: (progn 1 2 3) => 3 2017-05-18T16:58:17Z loke: paule32: PROGN takes a number of forms, executes each in sequence and returns the return value of the last one. 2017-05-18T16:58:28Z loke: (progn (print 1) (print 2)) prints 1 and 2 2017-05-18T16:58:33Z enzuru joined #lisp 2017-05-18T16:58:37Z jasom: minion: tell paule32 about pcl 2017-05-18T16:58:38Z minion: paule32: please see pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 2017-05-18T16:58:40Z jasom: minion: tell paule32 about gentle 2017-05-18T16:58:40Z minion: paule32: have a look at gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 2017-05-18T16:59:41Z remi`bd joined #lisp 2017-05-18T17:00:33Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-05-18T17:00:34Z m00natic quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.2.1)) 2017-05-18T17:01:00Z aeth joined #lisp 2017-05-18T17:01:42Z BernhardPosselt joined #lisp 2017-05-18T17:01:54Z BernhardPosselt: hi, why do i need a car to get an element out of a list? http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_firstc.htm#first 2017-05-18T17:02:40Z jasom: BernhardPosselt: are you familiar with the concept of a linked list? 2017-05-18T17:02:41Z learning joined #lisp 2017-05-18T17:02:46Z BernhardPosselt: yes 2017-05-18T17:02:53Z BernhardPosselt: but i have no idea what car means 2017-05-18T17:03:06Z BernhardPosselt: i mean it has 4 wheels 2017-05-18T17:03:28Z BernhardPosselt: carret? 2017-05-18T17:03:31Z enzuru quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-05-18T17:03:33Z BernhardPosselt: pointer? 2017-05-18T17:03:35Z teggi quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-05-18T17:03:46Z jasom: BernhardPosselt: lists in lisp are implemented as linked lists with CAR being the value and CDR being the next part of the list. The naming is historical due to assembly instructions on a PDP 2017-05-18T17:03:50Z Bike: it stood for "Contents of Address Register" at some point. the etymology isn't important. 2017-05-18T17:04:01Z BernhardPosselt: Bike: aah :) 2017-05-18T17:04:09Z jasom: BernhardPosselt: you can use first/rest instead of CAR/CDR 2017-05-18T17:04:30Z _death joined #lisp 2017-05-18T17:04:50Z BernhardPosselt: ty 2017-05-18T17:04:54Z jasom: BernhardPosselt: http://www.iwriteiam.nl/HaCAR_CDR.html 2017-05-18T17:05:26Z jasom: oh and it's IBM 704, not PDP apparently, my mistake 2017-05-18T17:05:53Z enzuru joined #lisp 2017-05-18T17:08:38Z jasom: The 704 is apparently also why a lot of older lisp symbols are truncated to 6 characters; that's how many characters fit in 1 word of memory on the 704 2017-05-18T17:10:56Z enzuru quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-05-18T17:11:08Z _death quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-18T17:11:46Z diphuser joined #lisp 2017-05-18T17:14:48Z phoe: BernhardPosselt: Contents of the Address part of Register (CAR) and Content of the Decrement part of Register (CDR) 2017-05-18T17:15:23Z phoe: so if you had a linked list, then CAR would point at the head (data) and CDR would point at the tail (the rest of the list) 2017-05-18T17:18:20Z paule32: *** - -: #2A((0 1 1 0)) is not a number 2017-05-18T17:18:53Z paule32: (setq error (- training_set_outputs output)) 2017-05-18T17:19:09Z phoe: paule32: uhhh, what is this from? 2017-05-18T17:19:11Z Bike: So... is one of those an array? 2017-05-18T17:19:15Z Bike: Because arrays aren't numbers. 2017-05-18T17:19:19Z Bike: Put two and two together, here 2017-05-18T17:19:49Z paule32: http://codepad.org/L0d5wDyu 2017-05-18T17:20:02Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-05-18T17:20:10Z paule32: yeah 2017-05-18T17:20:19Z phoe: paule32: give me a stack trace 2017-05-18T17:20:21Z mejja joined #lisp 2017-05-18T17:20:22Z jasom: paule32: it looks like you're trying to subtract arrays? 2017-05-18T17:20:40Z jasom: (- #2A(0 1 1 0)) foo) will give you an error 2017-05-18T17:20:40Z phoe: because I know too little about your code to be able to process this 2017-05-18T17:21:14Z paule32: please don't cry: http://codepad.org/1xB4e8nx 2017-05-18T17:22:18Z phoe: yes, you are subtracting arrays 2017-05-18T17:22:35Z Bike: So, don't do that 2017-05-18T17:22:44Z phoe: line 39 and 47 state you're making arrays. 2017-05-18T17:22:52Z rpg joined #lisp 2017-05-18T17:23:41Z loke quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-05-18T17:24:21Z paule32: is the error, because the arrays are not same? 2017-05-18T17:24:41Z Bike: no, the error is because subtraction works on numbers. you can' subtract arrays. 2017-05-18T17:24:45Z Bike: can't* 2017-05-18T17:26:03Z Bike: Were you expecting an elementwise subtraction resulting in a new array? 2017-05-18T17:26:27Z paule32: logic flash 2017-05-18T17:27:18Z _death joined #lisp 2017-05-18T17:28:16Z nowhere_man quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2017-05-18T17:28:24Z paule32: look: http://codepad.org/mNjTYY3s 2017-05-18T17:30:01Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2017-05-18T17:30:06Z Bike: https://docs.scipy.org/doc/numpy/reference/generated/numpy.subtract.html This, yes? 2017-05-18T17:30:29Z Bike: - is not overloaded to do this in lisp. 2017-05-18T17:31:08Z paule32: reshape 2017-05-18T17:31:26Z Bike: use sentences, please. 2017-05-18T17:31:52Z paule32: yes i would reshape array 2017-05-18T17:32:57Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-18T17:36:44Z _death quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-05-18T17:38:02Z BernhardPosselt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-18T17:40:28Z Bike: I don't know what that means, or what it has to do with this. 2017-05-18T17:43:46Z orivej quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-05-18T17:45:30Z xaotuk joined #lisp 2017-05-18T17:46:49Z gabriel_laddel_p joined #lisp 2017-05-18T17:47:15Z gabriel_laddel_p quit (Changing host) 2017-05-18T17:47:15Z gabriel_laddel_p joined #lisp 2017-05-18T17:47:15Z gabriel_laddel_p quit (Changing host) 2017-05-18T17:47:15Z gabriel_laddel_p joined #lisp 2017-05-18T17:47:28Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2017-05-18T17:47:53Z X-Scale joined #lisp 2017-05-18T17:48:23Z learning quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-18T17:48:28Z _death joined #lisp 2017-05-18T17:51:30Z rpg quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2017-05-18T17:56:05Z _death quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2017-05-18T17:56:53Z knobo joined #lisp 2017-05-18T17:57:37Z Ven joined #lisp 2017-05-18T17:58:00Z Ven is now known as Guest50345 2017-05-18T17:58:09Z raynold joined #lisp 2017-05-18T17:59:15Z xaotuk quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2017-05-18T18:07:04Z enzuru joined #lisp 2017-05-18T18:12:22Z enzuru quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-05-18T18:14:38Z Guest50345 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-18T18:15:15Z neoncontrails joined #lisp 2017-05-18T18:16:50Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2017-05-18T18:17:07Z gabriel_laddel_p left #lisp 2017-05-18T18:17:27Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-18T18:19:42Z doesthiswork quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-05-18T18:21:05Z Ven_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-18T18:21:31Z Tex_Nick joined #lisp 2017-05-18T18:23:25Z MONODA joined #lisp 2017-05-18T18:28:17Z axion: I will say that is incredibly better to look at than the code you posted 2 weeks ago here (which was some of the worst I have seen) 2017-05-18T18:28:30Z Bock quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-05-18T18:28:31Z axion: Are you actively trying to learn Lisp from a better resource now as we have suggested? 2017-05-18T18:28:44Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-18T18:29:17Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-05-18T18:30:50Z axion: I mean, I can read what the intentions here are at least, compared to http://paste.lisp.org/display/346046 2017-05-18T18:32:17Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2017-05-18T18:37:49Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2017-05-18T18:38:19Z shrdlu68: Guten abend, #lisp! 2017-05-18T18:39:09Z AlphaAtom joined #lisp 2017-05-18T18:41:35Z megalography quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-18T18:42:57Z whoman quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-18T18:43:21Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-05-18T18:44:41Z _death joined #lisp 2017-05-18T18:46:11Z paule33 joined #lisp 2017-05-18T18:46:31Z whoman joined #lisp 2017-05-18T18:47:32Z paule32 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-05-18T18:47:32Z paule33 is now known as paule32 2017-05-18T18:47:32Z whoman: boker tov! 2017-05-18T18:47:46Z phoe: shrdlu68: dobry wieczór 2017-05-18T18:50:32Z _death: it's erev now 2017-05-18T18:53:24Z learning joined #lisp 2017-05-18T18:54:57Z whoman quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-18T18:55:14Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-05-18T18:55:52Z megalography joined #lisp 2017-05-18T18:57:56Z Tex_Nick quit (Quit: In Linux, We Trust) 2017-05-18T18:58:02Z Ven_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-05-18T18:58:07Z grublet quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-05-18T18:58:18Z learning quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-05-18T18:58:35Z Ven joined #lisp 2017-05-18T18:58:58Z Ven is now known as Guest74863 2017-05-18T19:00:25Z whoman joined #lisp 2017-05-18T19:01:29Z whoman: _death, aha :) 2017-05-18T19:01:42Z Tex_Nick joined #lisp 2017-05-18T19:02:43Z greentea joined #lisp 2017-05-18T19:02:48Z Guest74863 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-18T19:02:56Z jasom: Is gsll the only matrix library in quicklisp? 2017-05-18T19:03:30Z axion: uhh no 2017-05-18T19:03:37Z axion: there are at least a dozen :) 2017-05-18T19:03:59Z jasom: axion: know any names of them? system-apropos "matrix" only shows femlisp 2017-05-18T19:04:00Z axion: Infact, my own was just added this week, but it is specific to 3d transformation matrices (4x4) 2017-05-18T19:04:04Z axion: gamebox-math 2017-05-18T19:04:13Z jasom: axion: I'm looking for general matrix linalg 2017-05-18T19:04:23Z greentea: as a side project i'm trying to implement an irc-like chat server. I was thinking of doing this in lisp. does anyone know anything about using lisp as a language for this sort of task? or would i be better off using something like c, or maybe erlang such as whatsapp did 2017-05-18T19:04:41Z greentea: is lisp efficient enough for this? 2017-05-18T19:04:51Z jasom: greentea: yes lisp is efficient enough for this. 2017-05-18T19:05:06Z phoe: efficiency is not an issue for chats 2017-05-18T19:05:18Z axion: jasom: how large do you need. most of the libraries are specific to games 2017-05-18T19:05:21Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2017-05-18T19:05:27Z phoe: I bet you can write a decently working one even in languages considered "really slow" 2017-05-18T19:06:01Z jasom: greentea: don't use C; chatservers is mostly moving strings around and network code, both of which are fairly painful in C. 2017-05-18T19:06:14Z jasom: axion: smaller than 100x100? 2017-05-18T19:07:03Z phoe: greentea: what jasom said; chat applications won't really suffer from small GC pauses - use this to your advantage and grab a language with automatic memory management. 2017-05-18T19:07:06Z |3b|: greentea: have you seen https://github.com/cicakhq/potato ? 2017-05-18T19:07:10Z phoe: ^ 2017-05-18T19:07:13Z phoe: very yes 2017-05-18T19:07:17Z phoe: that's a good example. 2017-05-18T19:07:55Z |3b|: though i guess that does a lot more than 'irc-style' chat 2017-05-18T19:08:21Z enzuru joined #lisp 2017-05-18T19:08:56Z greentea: jasom: cool, i'll try to do it in lisp then. i was thinking of writing it as efficient as possible in terms of memory usage on the server, and network usage. c/c++ is known to be very efficient which is why i thought of using it 2017-05-18T19:09:11Z greentea: |3b|: haven't seen that yet, i'll check it out 2017-05-18T19:09:30Z jasom: greentea: lisp is not efficient in terms of memory usage on the server 2017-05-18T19:09:50Z |3b|: some lisp implementations have a relatively large initial memory cost compared to C/C++, since they tend to include a VM,standard lib, tools, etc 2017-05-18T19:10:07Z axion: jasom: You may be out of luck then. It is non-trivial to generalize them. Just 4x4 has been a 3 year project of mine, to support euclidean/homogeneous transforms 2017-05-18T19:10:23Z |3b|: though tens of MB isn't that much these days even on tiny server VMs 2017-05-18T19:11:34Z jasom: greentea: in terms of per-user ram usage it shouldn't be too large though, but there is the initial overhad as |3b| said. Also some GC overhead (which can be minimized by invoking the GC periodically) 2017-05-18T19:11:55Z |3b|: http://www.cliki.net/linear%20algebra lists some general matrix libs i think 2017-05-18T19:12:43Z |3b|: not sure how many are in QL though 2017-05-18T19:12:52Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-05-18T19:13:06Z enzuru quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-18T19:15:00Z rpg joined #lisp 2017-05-18T19:15:10Z greentea: tens of MB shouldn't be too much indeed. whatsapp used to use erlang when they had millions of users. i don't know much about erlang, but lisp has probably similar memory usage as erlang right? so it should be possible in lisp 2017-05-18T19:16:16Z jasom: |3b|: looks like only lla and gsll are in (of the general matrix libs) 2017-05-18T19:16:32Z axion: jasom: and linear-algebra 2017-05-18T19:17:01Z axion: oh cl-ana...hmm 2017-05-18T19:17:04Z jasom: axion: not in mine 2017-05-18T19:17:50Z axion: cl-ana.linear-algebra, but looks much too minimal for any use 2017-05-18T19:17:53Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-05-18T19:18:26Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-18T19:18:41Z axion: As much as I hate to admit it, I use Octave and Julia for arbitrary matrix ops 2017-05-18T19:18:59Z jasom: what, not lush? 2017-05-18T19:19:02Z jasom: :P 2017-05-18T19:20:25Z |3b|: well, if you find one you like you could always ask to have it included :) 2017-05-18T19:20:47Z zacts quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-05-18T19:21:31Z whoman: whatsapp is not erlang any more? 2017-05-18T19:23:05Z enzuru joined #lisp 2017-05-18T19:23:18Z |3b|: probably hard to compare lisp and erlang, particularly on that scale, since 'memory usage' is sort of non-linear (as in it gets a lot more expensive once you hit the amount you can get in a single device) and erlang is easier to spread across devices 2017-05-18T19:25:38Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-05-18T19:25:52Z _death: programming erlang has a chat server example, so I'm guessing that's "typical" use for it.. 2017-05-18T19:27:10Z phoe: greentea: Lisp won't be minimalistic when it comes to memory usage but, properly used, will be pretty minimalistic when it comes to development time 2017-05-18T19:27:36Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2017-05-18T19:27:40Z phoe: make sure to use SLIME or another means of interactivity with the Lisp image. 2017-05-18T19:27:50Z phoe: that's the part that many other languages simply lack. 2017-05-18T19:28:21Z enzuru quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-05-18T19:29:29Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-05-18T19:31:31Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-05-18T19:32:32Z vydd joined #lisp 2017-05-18T19:33:08Z enzuru joined #lisp 2017-05-18T19:35:49Z zacts joined #lisp 2017-05-18T19:37:24Z greentea: phoe: indeed, less development time is very important too, it would probably be alot more work in c 2017-05-18T19:38:05Z enzuru quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-18T19:38:19Z phoe: greentea: use the fact that you can work on your application interactively, add and modify parts to it as it lives. 2017-05-18T19:39:01Z phoe: in a way, programming in Lisp is like a vivisection, except there's no blood (unless you really screw up multithreaded code :P) 2017-05-18T19:40:01Z phoe: there's nothing more pleasant than getting multiple threads thrown into the debugger all over your screen after you make a really bad redefinition. 2017-05-18T19:40:16Z jasom: phoe: this is why I don't use multithreading :P 2017-05-18T19:40:44Z phoe: jasom: in some cases multiple threads is the way™ 2017-05-18T19:42:06Z rpg: _death: I think the claim for Erlang is fault tolerance -- when one of your actors goes down your program will survive. That and the fact that actors are very cheap to stand up. 2017-05-18T19:43:06Z Ven_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-18T19:43:06Z phoe: yes, the famous let it crash philosophy 2017-05-18T19:43:27Z phoe: there's erlangen for CCL that emulates this functionality. 2017-05-18T19:43:43Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2017-05-18T19:48:03Z rpg: phoe: Presumably that works in a way akin to green threading.... 2017-05-18T19:48:51Z rpg: I played around with Erlang some once, but OMG, I can't imagine why anyone would have chosen to lift the syntax from Prolog of all things. 2017-05-18T19:49:01Z rpg: I love Prolog, but not for its syntax, that's for sure. 2017-05-18T19:49:25Z rpg: Haven't gotten around to trying Lisp-Flavored Erlang 2017-05-18T19:49:31Z shrdlu68: Was looking at it a while back and was wondering the same thing. 2017-05-18T19:49:50Z rpg: My guess is that it was prototyped in Prolog and the syntax was never overhauled. 2017-05-18T19:53:12Z pierpa joined #lisp 2017-05-18T19:53:15Z MONODA quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2017-05-18T19:55:20Z carlosda1 joined #lisp 2017-05-18T20:03:08Z deba5e12 joined #lisp 2017-05-18T20:05:03Z deba5e12 quit (Client Quit) 2017-05-18T20:05:04Z MrBusiness quit (Quit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIIqYqtR1lY -- Suicide is Painless - Johnny Mandel) 2017-05-18T20:05:31Z diphuser quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-05-18T20:08:50Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-05-18T20:09:13Z deba5e12 joined #lisp 2017-05-18T20:11:32Z carlosda1 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-05-18T20:12:01Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Hibernate, reboot, exeunt, etc.) 2017-05-18T20:14:06Z whoman really likes erlang syntax 2017-05-18T20:14:52Z phinxy joined #lisp 2017-05-18T20:15:58Z mazoe joined #lisp 2017-05-18T20:16:35Z diphuser joined #lisp 2017-05-18T20:18:08Z paule32 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-18T20:22:35Z mazoe: Hi all. I have a quite vague question :( but I’ll try and phrase it in a useful way. I’m finding myself calling `EVAL’ to evaluate one of the arguments to a macro-generating-macro. It feels icky. Is it ever idiomatic to do something like this? The macro is `deftag’ in the `spinneret’ library… 2017-05-18T20:22:39Z paule32 joined #lisp 2017-05-18T20:22:54Z Bike: using eval is almost always the wrong thing to do 2017-05-18T20:23:18Z Bike: a macro-generating-macro sounds complicated enough to maybe need it, but it's hard to say without context. lemme look 2017-05-18T20:23:19Z mazoe: mmm, ok, so that instinct was right 2017-05-18T20:23:20Z scymtym joined #lisp 2017-05-18T20:23:24Z White_Flame: the only time you should be using EVAL is if you're generating or loading source code after runtime has started 2017-05-18T20:23:44Z White_Flame: I've done a lot of macro-generating macros without ever touching EVAL 2017-05-18T20:23:53Z Bike: https://github.com/ruricolist/spinneret/blob/master/deftag.lisp#L46-L64 this? i don't see any eval calls in this file 2017-05-18T20:24:43Z mazoe: Bike: paste: http://paste.lisp.org/+7FRX 2017-05-18T20:25:22Z Bike: why not just skip the eval and have :value-pairs ((1 . "a") (2 . "b")) in the macro form? 2017-05-18T20:25:45Z mazoe: sure, what about :value-pairs (get-some-pairs) ? 2017-05-18T20:26:24Z White_Flame: it looks like you're trying to pass non-literal runtime data into a macro? that most assuredly won't work 2017-05-18T20:26:36Z mazoe: White_Flame: 2017-05-18T20:26:38Z mazoe: oops 2017-05-18T20:26:38Z Bike: yeah 2017-05-18T20:26:42Z mazoe: White_Flame: yeah 2017-05-18T20:26:43Z White_Flame: but then again, I'm not sure what deftag does, I haven't used that library 2017-05-18T20:27:26Z mazoe: hmm 2017-05-18T20:27:39Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2017-05-18T20:27:52Z White_Flame: if the field after :div.menu is evaluated, then (:div.menu (loop for pair in ,value-pairs) ....) 2017-05-18T20:28:02Z mazoe: yep agreed about not passing in non-literal runtime data, but I don’t believe that’s what I want to do 2017-05-18T20:28:05Z White_Flame: if the field after :div.menu is evaluated, then (:div.menu (loop for pair in ,value-pairs ...)) 2017-05-18T20:28:44Z Bike: mazoe: if you want :value-pairs (get-some-pairs) to work, that's what you want to do. 2017-05-18T20:28:44Z mazoe: yeah, tried that :( 2017-05-18T20:28:55Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-18T20:29:06Z White_Flame: mazoe: that wouldn't work with your current usage because of the quote 2017-05-18T20:29:10Z mazoe: lol yep, tried that. The data gets lost later on in the with-html expansion 2017-05-18T20:29:12Z Bike: get-some-pairs fundamentally needs to be called at macroexpansion time since you use the value in the macroexpander (not the expansion) 2017-05-18T20:29:18Z White_Flame: :value-pairs ((1 . "a") (2 . "b")) might work instead 2017-05-18T20:29:23Z megalography quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-05-18T20:29:33Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2017-05-18T20:29:35Z mazoe: Bike: yep, agreed 2017-05-18T20:29:38Z White_Flame: again, I'm not familiar with the library, and what gets turned into macro arguments vs is evaluted 2017-05-18T20:30:19Z Ven_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-05-18T20:30:37Z mazoe: so, the ‘nice’ way to do it would be to do (loop for pair in ,value-pairs … 2017-05-18T20:31:07Z Bike: i don't think that's how this system works. it seems like you need the tags all there at the same time. 2017-05-18T20:31:14Z mazoe: but that seems to get lost somewhere further along 2017-05-18T20:31:20Z mazoe: Bike: yes, apparently 2017-05-18T20:31:26Z mazoe: so it needs to be ,@loop 2017-05-18T20:31:32Z Ven joined #lisp 2017-05-18T20:31:52Z Bike: so i get the feeling you have a static html generator and you want it to not be static. 2017-05-18T20:31:55Z Ven is now known as Guest71934 2017-05-18T20:32:45Z mazoe: heh it’s presented as a relatively dynamic html generator 2017-05-18T20:33:20Z mazoe: oh well 2017-05-18T20:33:22Z Bike: well i see an example where it does (dolist (item *shopping-list*) (:li ...)) 2017-05-18T20:33:23Z pookleblinky joined #lisp 2017-05-18T20:33:32Z mazoe: yep 2017-05-18T20:33:49Z mazoe: and that works quite nicely in simple defuns and defmacros 2017-05-18T20:34:10Z Bike: so maybe you can have (:div-menu (loop for pair in ,value-pairs) do (:div.item :data-value ,(car pair) ,(cdr pair)))) 2017-05-18T20:34:17Z enzuru joined #lisp 2017-05-18T20:34:28Z shrdlu68: Has ayone undertaken writing a "lispy" bash? 2017-05-18T20:34:53Z rpg: shrdlu68: Olin Shivers's scsh? 2017-05-18T20:34:54Z aeth: Somoene did one in Scheme. https://scsh.net/ 2017-05-18T20:35:05Z aeth: There are several attempts in CL to various degrees of completion. 2017-05-18T20:35:20Z mazoe: Bike: ooh, yes maybe, will try it 2017-05-18T20:35:35Z Bike: or the same with dolist 2017-05-18T20:35:42Z xaotuk joined #lisp 2017-05-18T20:35:44Z mazoe: Bike, White_Flame, thanks a lot for the help! Vague question as it was… 2017-05-18T20:35:46Z Guest71934 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-18T20:35:49Z rpg: shrdlu68: Very hard to do because CL doesn't have enough of a filesystem and process API. 2017-05-18T20:36:05Z rpg: So you need to have an implementation-specific CL shell, if you want one. 2017-05-18T20:36:30Z rpg: Or you need to use CFFI heavily. 2017-05-18T20:36:39Z orivej quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2017-05-18T20:36:45Z shrdlu68: I see. 2017-05-18T20:37:09Z mazoe: Bike: hah, awesome, that works 2017-05-18T20:37:13Z rpg: E.g., CL cannot tell you whether a file is a symlink or not. 2017-05-18T20:37:38Z mazoe: fun times 2017-05-18T20:37:40Z Bike: mazoe: hooray 2017-05-18T20:38:01Z rpg: shrdlu68: this is why ASDF is such a pain in the ass and why Fare wrote UIOP. 2017-05-18T20:38:05Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-05-18T20:38:14Z rpg: But UIOP is not enough for shell scripting. 2017-05-18T20:38:35Z eazar001 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2017-05-18T20:38:37Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2017-05-18T20:39:11Z enzuru quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-05-18T20:39:15Z shrdlu68: Well, what's a shell in Lisp OSes? 2017-05-18T20:39:19Z mejja quit (Quit: \ No newline at end of file) 2017-05-18T20:39:30Z shrdlu68: Or the equivalent? 2017-05-18T20:39:54Z rpg: shrdlu68: It's not that you can't do it, it's just that you can't do it *with only the ANSI standard CL* 2017-05-18T20:40:09Z shrdlu68: rpg: I got that. 2017-05-18T20:40:17Z White_Flame: in lisp machines, you just have a repl, and can call normal file-manipulating S-expressions 2017-05-18T20:40:48Z shrdlu68: I guess the concept of a shell is a UNIX thing. 2017-05-18T20:41:11Z White_Flame: well, some also had "commands" that weren't s-expressions, but the same form of typed parameter input. I don't recall seeing any magic syntax like |, >, & etc you get from bashalikes 2017-05-18T20:41:49Z White_Flame: there's also mouse-based file operations. Print a directory, and select a file visually 2017-05-18T20:43:02Z Ven_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-05-18T20:43:18Z paule32 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-18T20:43:38Z paule32 joined #lisp 2017-05-18T20:44:19Z megalography joined #lisp 2017-05-18T20:44:26Z ebrasca quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-05-18T20:45:30Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2017-05-18T20:45:37Z nacci quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-05-18T20:46:40Z rpg: White_Flame: I think one could make some of the magic syntax, if you wanted it. Trying to do shell scripting, e.g., without syntax for interpolation, is pretty painful. 2017-05-18T20:47:46Z MrBusiness joined #lisp 2017-05-18T20:47:56Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2017-05-18T20:48:04Z White_Flame: sure, but you either give up too much of Lisp, or too much of the shell either way 2017-05-18T20:48:22Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2017-05-18T20:48:26Z White_Flame: at least in the partial designs & ideas I've seen cross this path before 2017-05-18T20:48:30Z rpg: White_Flame: I agree. I'm not at all convinced that shell scripting in Lisp is even desirable 2017-05-18T20:48:51Z rpg: which is my polite way of saying I think it's not a good idea. 2017-05-18T20:49:31Z rpg: If someone wishes to, good luck, but I don't see a win in spending an enormous amount of time to make an inferior version of perl with nicer syntax. 2017-05-18T20:50:24Z Ven_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-05-18T20:51:20Z nacci joined #lisp 2017-05-18T20:51:31Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2017-05-18T20:54:29Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-18T20:55:48Z aeth: I don't think shell scripting in Lisp would work well. I think some clever abstractions could replace an *interactive shell* (i.e. what you run in a terminal) with Lisp, though. 2017-05-18T20:57:45Z aeth: A bunch of shortcuts, pre-imported libraries, implicit ()s at the top level if there's no ( at the start of the line, etc. Like this: directory-files "~/foo/bar/baz" 2017-05-18T20:57:52Z nacci quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-05-18T20:58:30Z Ven_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-05-18T20:58:39Z nacci joined #lisp 2017-05-18T20:59:48Z aeth: The problem with trying to replace shell is that shell is a horrible language *except* for what it does well, and that's no coincidence. If it's above 100 lines, fear a .sh file, but if it's under 20 lines, you probably can't find another language that can do the same thing in under 100 lines, at least ime. 2017-05-18T21:01:43Z White_Flame: it's fundamentally a DSL (with a programming language hacked on top) 2017-05-18T21:02:21Z aeth: Yes, trying to replace it is like trying to replace SQL. 2017-05-18T21:03:31Z aeth: There are several weaknesses, such as being really old (and thus favoring things like conciseness too much, like old languages usually do (with Lisp as an obvious exception)) and serving two fairly different roles (as I said before, attack one or the other, not both) 2017-05-18T21:03:34Z burtons quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-05-18T21:03:54Z rpg: aeth: same for perl -- if you want to write a unix-style text file filter, it's really hard to beat. 2017-05-18T21:04:32Z greentea quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-05-18T21:05:24Z aeth: pre-systemd, I'd say sh is going to be around as long as Unix is, but these days? Who knows. 2017-05-18T21:06:35Z rpg: aeth: PowerShell runs on Linux ;-) 2017-05-18T21:06:49Z rpg doesn't really know what PowerShell is 2017-05-18T21:15:04Z jasom: I have a partial implementation of sh in lisp, that includes the ability to substitute in arbitrary lisp expressions 2017-05-18T21:15:41Z jasom: job control is not working at all, but most of the rest of sh is working 2017-05-18T21:16:12Z orivej quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-05-18T21:18:49Z pillton quit (*.net *.split) 2017-05-18T21:22:49Z pookleblinky: Scsh was also painfully unable to be used interactively 2017-05-18T21:23:56Z pookleblinky: Fish's attitude toward posix basically turned their scripting into an uncanny valley. 2017-05-18T21:24:27Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2017-05-18T21:24:35Z pookleblinky: If it'd stayed as compliant as zsh, it'd be a great shell. If it'd gone wild and chosen a modern scheme shell, it'd be amazing. 2017-05-18T21:26:51Z pookleblinky: Imagine a modern scsh, buit on chicken (scsh-process, etc) with modern autocompletion and paredit/etc so it can be used interactively. 2017-05-18T21:28:46Z vydd quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-05-18T21:30:28Z enzuru joined #lisp 2017-05-18T21:32:14Z aeth: I really think iteractive use vs. scripting use are too opposite to really work well (and they're probably a source of many of sh's flaws in the first place) 2017-05-18T21:35:48Z enzuru quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-05-18T21:37:56Z zooey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-18T21:38:11Z zooey joined #lisp 2017-05-18T21:43:37Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2017-05-18T21:46:02Z sukaeto: I like to take the view that the UNIX shell is a programmable interface to your computer, and sh (the language) is how you build new commands out of already existing ones 2017-05-18T21:46:22Z sukaeto: maybe you build a new command interactively and then make a function of it when you determine it's something you're going to do all the time 2017-05-18T21:46:34Z sukaeto: (kind of like REPL driven development in Lisp) 2017-05-18T21:48:22Z slyrus_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-05-18T21:48:23Z ebrasca quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-05-18T21:48:50Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2017-05-18T21:51:26Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2017-05-18T21:52:05Z diphuser quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-18T21:54:04Z mazoe quit (Quit: mazoe) 2017-05-18T21:54:36Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-05-18T21:57:40Z mishoo quit (Client Quit) 2017-05-18T21:59:26Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-05-18T22:03:43Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2017-05-18T22:03:46Z pve quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-05-18T22:06:25Z xaotuk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-18T22:06:51Z mbrock quit 2017-05-18T22:07:31Z ebrasca` joined #lisp 2017-05-18T22:09:00Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-18T22:10:01Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-18T22:11:35Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-18T22:15:21Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-05-18T22:20:32Z Lowl3v3l joined #lisp 2017-05-18T22:22:23Z enzuru joined #lisp 2017-05-18T22:24:32Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-05-18T22:27:05Z enzuru quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-18T22:35:36Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-18T22:40:17Z slyrus_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-05-18T22:40:21Z remi`bd quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-05-18T22:42:05Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-05-18T22:42:08Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-18T22:43:42Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-18T22:47:01Z gabriel_laddel_p joined #lisp 2017-05-18T22:47:31Z gabriel_laddel_p quit (Changing host) 2017-05-18T22:47:31Z gabriel_laddel_p joined #lisp 2017-05-18T22:47:31Z gabriel_laddel_p quit (Changing host) 2017-05-18T22:47:31Z gabriel_laddel_p joined #lisp 2017-05-18T22:51:15Z Marumarsu joined #lisp 2017-05-18T22:53:38Z AlphaAtom quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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