2017-05-15T00:00:25Z Cr4zko quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-15T00:00:39Z shrdlu68: Fare: native. 2017-05-15T00:00:46Z phinxy quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-05-15T00:03:17Z qaros joined #lisp 2017-05-15T00:04:27Z bigos quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-15T00:04:37Z qaros quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-15T00:07:14Z Fare: shrdlu68, using ironclad? 2017-05-15T00:08:01Z shrdlu68: Fare: Yep. 2017-05-15T00:11:35Z terpri joined #lisp 2017-05-15T00:16:14Z emacsomancer joined #lisp 2017-05-15T00:18:14Z Fare: do you have constant-time primitives for decoding keys? 2017-05-15T00:18:30Z Fare: I mean, for crypto passes that use keys 2017-05-15T00:19:28Z shrdlu68: Not sure what you mean, most of the crypto is handled by ironclad. 2017-05-15T00:20:19Z Fare: is there a new maintainer for ironclad? 2017-05-15T00:20:27Z shrdlu68: But yeah, I've kept timing attacks in mind while coding it, the RFCs are also very explicit about them. 2017-05-15T00:21:00Z shrdlu68: https://github.com/glv2/ironclad shows activity. 2017-05-15T00:24:23Z Fare: maybe someone should tell Xach about the new maintainer and repo 2017-05-15T00:25:02Z shrdlu68: I think phoe has. 2017-05-15T00:25:24Z Cr4zko joined #lisp 2017-05-15T00:25:33Z shrdlu68: There's a new release, too, and that still isn't on quicklisp. 2017-05-15T00:26:27Z Ozyma614 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-15T00:28:25Z kobain joined #lisp 2017-05-15T00:30:05Z Cr4zko quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-15T00:31:44Z dingusman joined #lisp 2017-05-15T00:49:12Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-05-15T00:51:23Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2017-05-15T00:51:52Z safe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-05-15T00:58:48Z yrk joined #lisp 2017-05-15T00:59:58Z shrdlu68 left #lisp 2017-05-15T01:11:04Z Bock joined #lisp 2017-05-15T01:11:05Z Bock quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2017-05-15T01:13:46Z Bock joined #lisp 2017-05-15T01:13:52Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-05-15T01:15:10Z impulse- quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-05-15T01:15:26Z impulse joined #lisp 2017-05-15T01:15:42Z emacsoma` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-15T01:23:40Z sfa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-15T01:37:05Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-05-15T01:37:20Z Guest85986 is now known as kushal 2017-05-15T01:37:26Z kushal quit (Changing host) 2017-05-15T01:37:26Z kushal joined #lisp 2017-05-15T01:49:31Z emacsoma` joined #lisp 2017-05-15T01:50:40Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-15T01:52:10Z shdeng joined #lisp 2017-05-15T01:55:53Z d4ryus3 joined #lisp 2017-05-15T01:56:05Z dingusman quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-05-15T01:56:44Z pilne quit (Quit: Quitting!) 2017-05-15T01:57:57Z shifty joined #lisp 2017-05-15T01:58:40Z d4ryus2 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-15T02:00:33Z joast joined #lisp 2017-05-15T02:02:04Z sellout-1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-05-15T02:02:20Z qaros joined #lisp 2017-05-15T02:06:12Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-15T02:07:50Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-05-15T02:08:39Z prole quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-15T02:09:21Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-05-15T02:11:19Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-05-15T02:12:42Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-15T02:13:27Z whoman quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-05-15T02:19:39Z holycow quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-05-15T02:19:55Z safe joined #lisp 2017-05-15T02:21:27Z holycow joined #lisp 2017-05-15T02:24:26Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-05-15T02:26:56Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-05-15T02:31:34Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-05-15T02:34:51Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-05-15T02:50:27Z qaros quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-15T02:52:17Z qaros joined #lisp 2017-05-15T02:57:10Z smokeink joined #lisp 2017-05-15T03:05:22Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-15T03:09:27Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-15T03:10:08Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-05-15T03:10:10Z attila_lendvai1 joined #lisp 2017-05-15T03:10:10Z attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 2017-05-15T03:10:10Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2017-05-15T03:10:10Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-05-15T03:10:38Z pierpa quit (Quit: Page closed) 2017-05-15T03:11:43Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2017-05-15T03:13:46Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-15T03:14:23Z smokeink joined #lisp 2017-05-15T03:24:10Z titankiller joined #lisp 2017-05-15T03:25:04Z titankiller quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-15T03:34:15Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-05-15T03:34:45Z test1600 joined #lisp 2017-05-15T03:38:46Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-05-15T03:53:20Z araujo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-05-15T03:57:17Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-05-15T04:10:18Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-05-15T04:10:25Z beach: Good morning everyone! 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2017-05-15T06:56:39Z sz0 joined #lisp 2017-05-15T06:58:42Z Jonsky quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-15T06:59:41Z Jonsky joined #lisp 2017-05-15T07:06:24Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-05-15T07:06:25Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-05-15T07:10:42Z shka joined #lisp 2017-05-15T07:12:41Z beach: Hello phoe. 2017-05-15T07:13:21Z beach: phoe: I started looking at LZ77, because it's the basis for LZMA. I had forgotten how that one works. 2017-05-15T07:14:44Z taij33n quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-15T07:15:41Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2017-05-15T07:19:21Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-05-15T07:19:32Z Bike quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-05-15T07:22:06Z dec0n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-05-15T07:23:02Z dec0n joined #lisp 2017-05-15T07:30:58Z gingerale joined #lisp 2017-05-15T07:34:59Z xaotuk joined #lisp 2017-05-15T07:36:28Z o1e9 joined #lisp 2017-05-15T07:36:35Z xaotuk quit (Client Quit) 2017-05-15T07:37:42Z Lowl3v3l joined #lisp 2017-05-15T07:39:23Z xaotuk joined #lisp 2017-05-15T07:51:49Z xaotuk quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-05-15T07:52:04Z jameser_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-05-15T07:53:18Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-05-15T08:02:04Z Beetny joined #lisp 2017-05-15T08:14:51Z loke`: Has anyone seen weird behaviour with SLIME and/or Paredit with recent versions of Emacs? 2017-05-15T08:15:08Z ttt72 joined #lisp 2017-05-15T08:15:10Z easye: emacs-25.2? Not really. 2017-05-15T08:15:11Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-15T08:15:31Z loke`: easye: When I use Barf and slurp specifically, the indentation becomes completely screwed up 2017-05-15T08:15:43Z shka: loke`: works for me 2017-05-15T08:15:50Z easye doesn't barf or slurp. 2017-05-15T08:16:05Z loke`: Also, when I want to do tab expansion in the SLIME buffer, the cursor _sometimes_ jumps to column zero and says "text is read only" 2017-05-15T08:16:07Z shka: but my setup is kinda weird 2017-05-15T08:16:13Z shka: both parinifer and paredit 2017-05-15T08:17:53Z loke`: Also, when I want to do tab expansion in the SLIME buffer, the cursor _sometimes_ jumps to column zero and says "text is read only" 2017-05-15T08:17:57Z loke`: oops sorry 2017-05-15T08:23:04Z easye: loke`: What are 'barf' and 'slurp'? Some kind of contrib? A grep of SLIME source doesn't show them present in my slime-2.19? 2017-05-15T08:24:10Z loke`: C-right and C-left by default. 2017-05-15T08:24:19Z loke`: easye: It's part of Paredit 2017-05-15T08:24:42Z easye: Ah. I don't use Paredit. So, this is probably some sort of interaction with Paredit/SLIME. 2017-05-15T08:26:58Z dmiles quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-05-15T08:30:17Z dmiles joined #lisp 2017-05-15T08:35:18Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-05-15T08:44:06Z phoe: beach: so have I. I have found some interesting articles - I will start summing my knowledge up on Github. 2017-05-15T08:44:56Z phoe: https://github.com/phoe/cl-lzma/issues/1 2017-05-15T08:46:36Z beach: Good plan. 2017-05-15T08:48:26Z phoe: Mostly because LZMA is a pretty damn obscure algorithm. 2017-05-15T08:48:31Z phoe: As in - it lacks documentation. 2017-05-15T08:48:52Z beach: I noticed, yes. 2017-05-15T08:48:59Z beach: Might be worthwhile documenting it. 2017-05-15T08:52:50Z yaewa joined #lisp 2017-05-15T08:53:57Z moei quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-15T08:55:00Z beach: Hmm. I *really* need to make progress on the Earley parser for lambda lists represented as concrete syntax trees. Source tracking in SICL/Cleavir depends on it, and so does the finer analysis of Common Lisp code in Second Climacs. 2017-05-15T08:56:39Z yaewa quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-05-15T08:57:13Z moei joined #lisp 2017-05-15T08:59:05Z azzamsa joined #lisp 2017-05-15T08:59:18Z phoe: beach: God sped you. 2017-05-15T09:04:34Z Fare joined #lisp 2017-05-15T09:04:45Z ttt72 quit (Quit: ttt72) 2017-05-15T09:07:30Z phoe: Xach: do you reject requests in quicklisp-projects that are not well-behaved? 2017-05-15T09:07:42Z phoe: I wonder because https://i.imgtc.com/RiDpFav.png seems so polite in general 2017-05-15T09:10:55Z azzamsa quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-05-15T09:12:35Z Lowl3v3l quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-05-15T09:13:38Z Lowl3v3l joined #lisp 2017-05-15T09:14:16Z jackdaniel: I think that updates are on monthlly basis, yet none of this entries is older than 1 month 2017-05-15T09:14:27Z jackdaniel: I'd wait patiently 2017-05-15T09:14:34Z phoe: jackdaniel: it's not about waiting 2017-05-15T09:14:44Z arbv quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2017-05-15T09:14:47Z phoe: it's more about almost all of the entries beginning with "please" :) 2017-05-15T09:15:01Z phoe: hence my comment about well-behavedness 2017-05-15T09:15:51Z arbv joined #lisp 2017-05-15T09:15:59Z impulse quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-05-15T09:16:00Z holycow quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-05-15T09:21:55Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-05-15T09:21:55Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2017-05-15T09:21:55Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-05-15T09:22:42Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-15T09:31:24Z HDurer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-15T09:38:42Z _cosmonaut_1 joined #lisp 2017-05-15T09:38:55Z Jonsky quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-05-15T09:41:27Z hydan joined #lisp 2017-05-15T09:43:10Z _cosmonaut_1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-15T09:59:04Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-05-15T10:00:14Z _cosmonaut_ joined #lisp 2017-05-15T10:02:10Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-05-15T10:07:35Z Kaisyu joined #lisp 2017-05-15T10:07:57Z John[Lisbeth] joined #lisp 2017-05-15T10:08:09Z m00natic joined #lisp 2017-05-15T10:08:39Z TCZ joined #lisp 2017-05-15T10:17:32Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-05-15T10:21:51Z Xach: phoe: no 2017-05-15T10:22:38Z TCZ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-05-15T10:22:57Z jameser quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-15T10:26:49Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-05-15T10:28:23Z ainttimy joined #lisp 2017-05-15T10:33:59Z xaotuk joined #lisp 2017-05-15T10:36:31Z Marumarsu quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-15T10:36:48Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-05-15T10:38:25Z xaotuk quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-05-15T10:38:45Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-05-15T10:38:50Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2017-05-15T10:43:05Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-15T10:43:42Z Tordek joined #lisp 2017-05-15T10:44:40Z nirved joined #lisp 2017-05-15T10:45:42Z whiteline joined #lisp 2017-05-15T10:48:02Z nydel joined #lisp 2017-05-15T10:48:07Z vert2 joined #lisp 2017-05-15T10:52:06Z TCZ joined #lisp 2017-05-15T10:54:07Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-05-15T10:57:26Z tiago quit (Changing host) 2017-05-15T10:57:26Z tiago joined #lisp 2017-05-15T10:57:53Z sfa joined #lisp 2017-05-15T10:58:29Z sfa quit (Client Quit) 2017-05-15T10:59:58Z test1600 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-05-15T11:00:40Z arbv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-05-15T11:03:11Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-05-15T11:10:45Z John[Lisbeth]: Dumb question but I want to return the value of pushing onto a list rather than mutate the list 2017-05-15T11:11:36Z loke`: John[Lisbeth]: That would be CONS 2017-05-15T11:11:52Z John[Lisbeth]: thanks 2017-05-15T11:13:11Z shdeng quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-05-15T11:17:35Z qaros quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-15T11:27:44Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-05-15T11:29:23Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-05-15T11:35:30Z John[Lisbeth]: Is there a way to declare the same variable twice in a do loop? 2017-05-15T11:37:50Z Grue`` joined #lisp 2017-05-15T11:38:44Z shka: John[Lisbeth]: don't do it 2017-05-15T11:38:55Z shka: it is useless 2017-05-15T11:38:57Z John[Lisbeth]: don't do it or it isn't built do do it? 2017-05-15T11:39:31Z shka: it may compile wihout error, didn't check 2017-05-15T11:39:58Z shka: but problems is that do uses let to establish initialbindings 2017-05-15T11:40:15Z John[Lisbeth]: yes the initial bindings would get in the way 2017-05-15T11:40:23Z John[Lisbeth]: and it requires an argument for it's initial binding each time 2017-05-15T11:40:25Z shka: and you will have (let ((a 1)) (a 2)) ...) 2017-05-15T11:40:38Z shka: and this is not defined as far i know 2017-05-15T11:41:16Z shka: so even if it would work, it would still be poorly written program 2017-05-15T11:41:34Z shka: so just don't do it 2017-05-15T11:42:24Z John[Lisbeth]: The reason was I wanted to redefine teh value of a variable in do multiple times each time I iterate but the only way to do that it seems os to make a function that does it and to make a function I have to make a new named iteration each time 2017-05-15T11:42:35Z John[Lisbeth]: which isn't resource heavy just syntactically weird 2017-05-15T11:43:17Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2017-05-15T11:43:18Z shka: well, either use do, or just say fuck it and write recursive function 2017-05-15T11:43:26Z shka: not do 2017-05-15T11:43:27Z shka: loop 2017-05-15T11:43:51Z shka: also, do has body 2017-05-15T11:44:04Z shka: and you can put anything you want in there 2017-05-15T11:44:31Z shka: so you should be able to work this out this way 2017-05-15T11:44:36Z John[Lisbeth]: do has body? 2017-05-15T11:44:42Z John[Lisbeth]: do you mean the third arg to do? 2017-05-15T11:45:00Z shka: i guess it would be third, yes 2017-05-15T11:45:15Z shka: also, redefine value? 2017-05-15T11:45:25Z John[Lisbeth]: I loves me some mutable state 2017-05-15T11:45:29Z shka: you can do one or two things 2017-05-15T11:45:42Z shka: 1) establish new binding to lexical value 2017-05-15T11:45:48Z shka: 2) change existing value 2017-05-15T11:45:55Z shka: not sure which one you want 2017-05-15T11:45:58Z John[Lisbeth]: does the third value iterate every time or just once? 2017-05-15T11:46:03Z shka: every time 2017-05-15T11:46:22Z shka: *1) establish new lexical binding to value 2017-05-15T11:46:34Z shka: but it sounds like you want to do 2 2017-05-15T11:46:42Z shka: so check how setf work 2017-05-15T11:46:59Z shka: let never changes existing binding, it just introduces new one 2017-05-15T11:47:22Z shka: *2) change existing binding 2017-05-15T11:47:34Z John[Lisbeth]: setf looks quite promising I will have to look into it 2017-05-15T11:47:36Z shka: eh, hopefully you understand :-) 2017-05-15T11:47:41Z shka: yup 2017-05-15T11:47:43Z shka: anyway 2017-05-15T11:47:52Z shka: John[Lisbeth]: take a look at PCL book 2017-05-15T11:48:12Z shka: it explains basics 2017-05-15T11:48:15Z John[Lisbeth]: I am having trouble from the hyperspec figuring out what the third argument in do does 2017-05-15T11:48:27Z shka: well, yeah 2017-05-15T11:48:36Z shka: ignore hyperspec 2017-05-15T11:48:42Z shka: just take a look at PCL 2017-05-15T11:48:47Z John[Lisbeth]: I can't understand pcl either 2017-05-15T11:48:57Z John[Lisbeth]: it is written with very poor explanations 2017-05-15T11:49:02Z shka: hmmm 2017-05-15T11:49:12Z shka: perhaps Land Of Lisp could be better? 2017-05-15T11:49:16Z shka: anyway, back to work 2017-05-15T11:53:19Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-05-15T11:56:37Z flip214: John[Lisbeth]: is http://phoe.tymoon.eu/clus/doku.php?id=cl:macros:do easier to understand? 2017-05-15T11:56:45Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2017-05-15T12:00:57Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-05-15T12:01:56Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-05-15T12:02:35Z qaros joined #lisp 2017-05-15T12:03:08Z pjb: minion: memo for phoe: in CLUS, it would be nice if the parts that are identical to CLHS were distinguishable from the part that you re-phrased. 2017-05-15T12:03:09Z minion: Remembered. 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ZZZzzz…) 2017-05-15T14:34:29Z jackdaniel: could you rephrase? 2017-05-15T14:36:42Z xaotuk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-15T14:37:40Z jasom quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-15T14:39:05Z Fare: IIRC, ECL has forked ASDF at some point after 3.1.7 2017-05-15T14:39:22Z Fare: ASDF is already as 3.2.1, going on 3.3.0 some point this or next month (I hope) 2017-05-15T14:40:27Z jameser joined #lisp 2017-05-15T14:41:20Z jackdaniel: I'm not going to track changes in ASDF 3.2 and later - changes are too vast and backporting changes would require reimplementing things introduced in this line 2017-05-15T14:41:32Z jackdaniel: user is free to load newer ASDF versions (instead of doing require asdf) 2017-05-15T14:42:25Z jackdaniel: if he aims at 3.3.0 or anything 2017-05-15T14:43:32Z qaros quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-15T14:44:22Z jasom joined #lisp 2017-05-15T14:44:49Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-05-15T14:46:31Z oleo joined #lisp 2017-05-15T14:46:45Z qaros joined #lisp 2017-05-15T14:49:56Z Fare: is there anything in your line I should forward-port? 2017-05-15T14:50:56Z Fare: was make-build the only thing you wanted that made you fork? 2017-05-15T14:52:35Z FareTower joined #lisp 2017-05-15T14:53:34Z burtons joined #lisp 2017-05-15T14:54:03Z jackdaniel: no, adding make-build could be done outside asdf. I don't that it changes in a way, that makes older systems obsolete 2017-05-15T14:54:10Z qaros quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-15T14:54:15Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-05-15T14:54:44Z jackdaniel: s/don't that/don't like that/ 2017-05-15T14:54:46Z jameser quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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See the sepcification of MOP at http://www.alu.org/mop/ 2017-05-15T17:49:31Z easye: minion: thanks. 2017-05-15T17:49:31Z minion: no problem 2017-05-15T17:50:48Z FareTower quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-15T17:51:25Z easye: minion: Actually that no longer resolves, but http://mop.lisp.se seems to be good. 2017-05-15T17:51:27Z minion: lisp is the glue that binds the variables together 2017-05-15T17:52:48Z fourier joined #lisp 2017-05-15T17:54:19Z fourier: is where a build-in way to bind car and cdr of the value to variables? 2017-05-15T17:54:21Z Kaisyu quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-05-15T17:54:54Z fourier: like multiple-value-bind but for cons cell (a . b) 2017-05-15T17:54:56Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-05-15T17:55:11Z jackdaniel: destructuring-bind 2017-05-15T17:58:01Z beach: easye: This one is new and improved: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/ 2017-05-15T17:59:30Z beach: easye: Notice that the copyright of the mop.lisp.se site is totally contrary to the wishes of the authors of the book: "This HyperText version is copyright 1997 by Elwood Corporation, and permission is granted to use it and reference it as a normal HTML document, and to make and distribute copies provided the copies are complete and unmodified." 2017-05-15T17:59:37Z prole joined #lisp 2017-05-15T17:59:53Z fourier: jackdaniel: thanks, will try that. completely forgot about this one 2017-05-15T17:59:59Z brendyyn joined #lisp 2017-05-15T18:00:04Z beach: easye: That is why I felt obliged to start from the TeX source of the book to make a better version. 2017-05-15T18:00:05Z jackdaniel: sure 2017-05-15T18:00:50Z easye: beach: Much better. Thank you. We should figure out how to get stastats to update minion. 2017-05-15T18:01:05Z beach: You can do it yourself. 2017-05-15T18:01:10Z beach: minion: help 2017-05-15T18:01:10Z minion: There are multiple help modules. Try ``/msg minion help kind'', where kind is one of: "lookups", "helping others", "adding terms", "aliasing terms", "forgetting", "memos", "avoiding memos", "nicknames", "goodies", "eliza", "advice", "apropos", "acronyms". 2017-05-15T18:01:21Z beach: minion: help adding terms 2017-05-15T18:01:21Z minion: To add a term, say something like ``minion: add "term" as: the definition''. I will remember the definition. 2017-05-15T18:01:39Z fourier: jackdaniel: hm this works: (destructuring-bind (x y) '(1 2) (print x)) 2017-05-15T18:01:40Z beach: easye: Up to you now! :) 2017-05-15T18:01:48Z fourier: jackdaniel: but this not: (destructuring-bind (x y) (cons 1 2) (print x)) 2017-05-15T18:01:55Z trouble` joined #lisp 2017-05-15T18:02:03Z trouble` quit (Client Quit) 2017-05-15T18:02:39Z jackdaniel: try (dbind (x . y) (cons ...)) 2017-05-15T18:02:47Z jackdaniel: sorry, im on phone 2017-05-15T18:02:59Z jackdaniel: no keyboard :) 2017-05-15T18:03:05Z fourier: jackdaniel: works, thanks! 2017-05-15T18:03:06Z easye: What "add" means in the context of revision will take some experimenting. But point taken, beach. 2017-05-15T18:04:45Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2017-05-15T18:09:18Z maarhart joined #lisp 2017-05-15T18:10:53Z easye: minion: amop 2017-05-15T18:10:53Z minion: amop: amop: The Art of the Metaobject Protocol, an essential book for understanding the implementation of CLOS and advanced OO. See 2017-05-15T18:15:45Z maarhart quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-15T18:17:40Z FareTower joined #lisp 2017-05-15T18:18:17Z bsdcode quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2017-05-15T18:20:49Z easye seems to have misplaced his physical copy of _AMOP_. "Darn." 2017-05-15T18:21:13Z easye: That's going to cause me to go through my whole library. 2017-05-15T18:21:35Z whoman joined #lisp 2017-05-15T18:23:05Z Bock quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-05-15T18:23:30Z easye: Oh. That was fast (it was already next to my desk). 2017-05-15T18:24:58Z Grue`` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-05-15T18:26:08Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-15T18:28:00Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-05-15T18:28:05Z les quit (Quit: "") 2017-05-15T18:29:39Z les joined #lisp 2017-05-15T18:38:13Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-05-15T18:38:28Z sgript quit (Quit: PanicBNC account has been auto selected for removal due to login inactivity.) 2017-05-15T18:39:27Z FareTower quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-15T18:42:27Z whoman quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-15T18:43:57Z lagagain joined #lisp 2017-05-15T18:55:20Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-05-15T18:56:30Z sebboh: Hi all. Suppose I want to do something like (foo "stuff!" :color "grey" :fontcolor "light grey") ... but I have a bunch of nodes that are going to be grey. Can I make a macro (or something) that would enable me to just do (foo "stuff!" (grey)) ? 2017-05-15T18:56:40Z sebboh: for less typing... :) 2017-05-15T18:57:48Z whoman joined #lisp 2017-05-15T18:58:11Z FareTower joined #lisp 2017-05-15T19:05:59Z ttt72 quit (Quit: ttt72) 2017-05-15T19:06:03Z FareTower quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-05-15T19:21:33Z oleo: yes you can sebboh 2017-05-15T19:22:11Z arbv joined #lisp 2017-05-15T19:24:19Z sebboh: Thanks, I'll start right away! ;) 2017-05-15T19:26:56Z sebboh: I tried something like (defmacro grey () :color "grey" :fontcolor "light grey"), and I was able to execute that (thus defining my macro). 2017-05-15T19:27:32Z oleo: oO 2017-05-15T19:27:58Z oleo: why not a function then ? 2017-05-15T19:28:29Z oleo: if all you want is the same thing over and over..... 2017-05-15T19:28:41Z sebboh: I dunno. 2017-05-15T19:29:07Z emaczen joined #lisp 2017-05-15T19:29:10Z oleo: it won't expand to (foo "stuff!"..... 2017-05-15T19:29:12Z oleo: you know 2017-05-15T19:29:30Z sebboh: Maybe I'm just thinking of c-preprocessor macros when I try to use macros to address this particular situation. 2017-05-15T19:30:05Z sebboh: I think I could make (grey-foo ...) which just calls foo, but with some grey stuck in there. 2017-05-15T19:30:22Z oleo: it is like templates 2017-05-15T19:30:27Z oleo: polymorphic 2017-05-15T19:30:33Z sebboh: This is why I don't know macros, btw, and anybody with a far reaching channel log can confirm that. ;) 2017-05-15T19:30:34Z oleo: expands to what you want given the arguments 2017-05-15T19:30:58Z emaczen quit (Client Quit) 2017-05-15T19:31:06Z oleo: and you have a base construct you want to get literal with the parts in it changeable at runtime so to say..... 2017-05-15T19:31:17Z sebboh: I know what those words template and polymorphic mean, generally speaking, but I don't know if you're using them in a general sense or not. 2017-05-15T19:31:26Z oleo: yes generic 2017-05-15T19:31:37Z oleo: backquote is where you begin with 2017-05-15T19:32:01Z oleo: put the form you want to get back as a macro form backquoted first 2017-05-15T19:33:47Z oleo: and then arrange the parts which should be changeable at run-time given the arguments (you unquote them via , or ,@ (if it's a mpv argument like a list or so) with just , it gets evaled with ,@ the arguments gets spliced at the point you specify 2017-05-15T19:35:13Z oleo: `(foo ,stuff :color ,color :font-color ,font-color) <- like that ca. 2017-05-15T19:36:11Z oleo: (defmacro color (&optional (color bla) (font-color blabla)) `(foo ......... 2017-05-15T19:38:41Z emaczen joined #lisp 2017-05-15T19:39:21Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-05-15T19:39:48Z Bike: sebboh: grey-foo would be closer to normal. 2017-05-15T19:40:32Z emaczen: How can I get my computer to Beep? I'm running OSX, with CCL or SBCL 2017-05-15T19:40:42Z emaczen: I've tried printing #\bell with SBCL with no luck 2017-05-15T19:40:53Z Bike: or you could do (apply #'foo :fontcolor "light grey" defaults) where defaults = '(:color "grey") 2017-05-15T19:41:31Z sebboh: emaczen: your terminal emulator may have a setting that specifies what to do when it encounters a #\bell (ASCII 7). 2017-05-15T19:41:54Z emaczen: sebboh: I'm using SLIME 2017-05-15T19:42:11Z oleo: change your terminal settings 2017-05-15T19:42:19Z oleo: +ixbell or some such..... 2017-05-15T19:42:49Z oleo: and probably your system is configured to turn that into a system message anyway..... 2017-05-15T19:42:58Z oleo: so check your configs really 2017-05-15T19:43:50Z oleo: btw "notifications" 2017-05-15T19:44:06Z emaczen: oleo: how do I do this with SLIME? I'm sure most people here use SLIME? 2017-05-15T19:44:10Z sebboh: bell: 2017-05-15T19:44:41Z oleo: emaczen: can you hear a sound with it in your normal konsole or terminal in your Desktop Environment ? 2017-05-15T19:44:53Z oleo: emaczen: btw i don't think that's ontopic here really 2017-05-15T19:45:00Z emaczen: oleo: It works with (beep) or (ding) in emacs 2017-05-15T19:45:13Z oleo: ah 2017-05-15T19:45:30Z sebboh: emaczen: I don't know what emacs does with bell characters. I dunno if (beep) uses the bell character. 2017-05-15T19:45:37Z sebboh: #emacs might know... 2017-05-15T19:45:58Z sebboh: Though of course there is a fair argument that slime questions are on topic here. 2017-05-15T19:46:26Z oleo: yes but emacs may change stuff on the fly as to not bother with system settings etc.... 2017-05-15T19:46:34Z oleo: so check how your emacs does it 2017-05-15T19:46:47Z sebboh: M-. on (bell) 2017-05-15T19:47:09Z emaczen: sebboh: M-. only works for me in SLIME 2017-05-15T19:48:40Z emaczen: okay, the emacs documentation says that it is built-in with C source code. 2017-05-15T19:48:43Z sebboh: emaczen: if you set a buffer to emacs-lisp-mode you may find it works there, too. I dunno. 2017-05-15T19:49:04Z sebboh: Ah, drat. I don't usually dig into those. 2017-05-15T19:49:59Z emaczen: anyone know how to call NSBeep() from CCL? 2017-05-15T19:50:06Z sebboh: If your goal it to make a noise happen, if it doesn't have to be an ascii bell character, then you could just make sbcl play a sound. 2017-05-15T19:51:19Z emaczen: sebboh: I'm fine with that. 2017-05-15T19:53:29Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-15T19:54:43Z sebboh: ok, this is in quicklisp. https://filonenko-mikhail.github.io/cl-portaudio/ 2017-05-15T19:55:02Z sebboh: It only works under linux with OSS... 2017-05-15T19:55:12Z sebboh: dunno where they got the 'port' in the name there. ;) 2017-05-15T19:55:35Z emaczen: What about calling C code? 2017-05-15T19:57:01Z sebboh: ooh, you stated you are on OSX. Re: calling C code, I'm not sure how. 2017-05-15T19:57:12Z sebboh: something about FFI. 2017-05-15T19:58:02Z emaczen: sebboh: It would be cool to do something like: (ffi: "println(7)") -- apparently 7 is the code for #\bell 2017-05-15T19:58:26Z emaczen: I mean (ffi:c-call "println(7)") 2017-05-15T19:58:40Z emaczen: or printf or whatever it is in C 2017-05-15T19:58:41Z pierpa joined #lisp 2017-05-15T19:59:53Z Ven joined #lisp 2017-05-15T20:00:16Z Ven is now known as Guest50585 2017-05-15T20:01:16Z _death: interestingly, the emacs ding function appears just before a function called bitch_at_user, that also beeps in certain circumstances 2017-05-15T20:01:57Z vtomole joined #lisp 2017-05-15T20:02:49Z TDT joined #lisp 2017-05-15T20:02:56Z emaczen: can anyone tell me how to call printf from lisp? 2017-05-15T20:03:34Z _death: emaczen: cffi manual has an example 2017-05-15T20:04:36Z Guest50585 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-05-15T20:05:10Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2017-05-15T20:06:44Z hydan quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-05-15T20:07:12Z emaczen: _death: where is that? 2017-05-15T20:07:24Z _death: on the internet 2017-05-15T20:09:02Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-05-15T20:09:35Z Ven_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-15T20:11:15Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2017-05-15T20:16:05Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2017-05-15T20:18:27Z emaczen: I can't fflush with cffi 2017-05-15T20:18:46Z emaczen: I'm following this example: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/30799084/where-is-the-text-printed-by-c-printf 2017-05-15T20:20:38Z sebboh: the thing is emaczen, where are you going to print to? What is your target stream? I think slime has grabbed some (all?) of your streams. If you go into a shell and do an echo $ascii_bell_character and it beeps, it is your terminal emulator that makes the noise. 2017-05-15T20:21:08Z pve joined #lisp 2017-05-15T20:21:32Z sebboh: Is there some package available via quicklisp that has common file operations such as copy and rename? 2017-05-15T20:22:06Z sebboh: that I can expect to be at least mildly cross-implementation? 2017-05-15T20:22:19Z sebboh: ...Not that I technically care so long as it works on sbcl. 2017-05-15T20:23:01Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-05-15T20:23:46Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2017-05-15T20:23:51Z jself joined #lisp 2017-05-15T20:24:07Z emaczen: finally... I found out how to call NSBeep with CCL 2017-05-15T20:24:28Z emaczen: It is (#_NSBeep) -- usually cocoa functions are prefixed with #/ 2017-05-15T20:27:33Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-05-15T20:34:31Z mklk_ is now known as mklk 2017-05-15T20:35:35Z Ven_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-15T20:36:13Z Ven joined #lisp 2017-05-15T20:36:21Z sebboh: interesting! 2017-05-15T20:36:25Z xaotuk joined #lisp 2017-05-15T20:36:36Z Ven is now known as Guest873 2017-05-15T20:36:46Z sebboh: regarding my question about file operations, I'm just going to use trivial-shell and call /bin/cp :P 2017-05-15T20:40:32Z Guest873 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-05-15T20:41:10Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2017-05-15T20:45:48Z Ven_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-05-15T20:45:54Z neoncont_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-15T20:45:57Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-15T20:47:17Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2017-05-15T20:50:08Z Harag1 joined #lisp 2017-05-15T20:52:11Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2017-05-15T20:52:11Z Harag1 is now known as Harag 2017-05-15T20:53:44Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-05-15T21:00:04Z bigos joined #lisp 2017-05-15T21:00:49Z Ven_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-05-15T21:05:39Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-15T21:10:22Z nirved quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-05-15T21:13:35Z grumble quit (Quit: Uncaught java.lang.NullPointerException occurred in IRCConnection.java:59) 2017-05-15T21:14:20Z grumble joined #lisp 2017-05-15T21:21:14Z MrBismuth joined #lisp 2017-05-15T21:25:07Z MrBusiness quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2017-05-15T21:32:08Z rumbler31: sebboh: I believe UIOP, usually bundled with ASDF, covers file system operations in a cross platform way 2017-05-15T21:33:33Z kmb joined #lisp 2017-05-15T21:36:01Z easye: rumbler31: realistically, I don't think ASDF is ever distributed *without* UIOP at this point. 2017-05-15T21:36:43Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-05-15T21:37:46Z rumbler31: right 2017-05-15T21:38:26Z rumbler31: I didn't want to make too many affirmative statements. I was under the impression that UIOP was written by the author of asdf to solve this problem in a portable way 2017-05-15T21:42:32Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-15T21:47:50Z serieux quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1) 2017-05-15T21:48:17Z serieux joined #lisp 2017-05-15T21:48:59Z John[Lisbeth]: If I am forming an entire list that needs to be reversed is it more efficient to form it then reverse it or is it more efficient to forming it by appending the value to the end of the list each time? 2017-05-15T21:49:28Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-15T21:51:49Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-05-15T21:51:49Z Bike: if you keep an end pointer i think they're roughly as efficient. 2017-05-15T21:56:17Z hyero joined #lisp 2017-05-15T21:58:31Z pjb: John[Lisbeth]: it depends. 2017-05-15T21:58:50Z pjb: John[Lisbeth]: on some old architectures, it was more efficient to push and nreverse it. 2017-05-15T21:58:56Z ARM9 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-05-15T21:59:20Z John[Lisbeth]: lets assume a computer 2008 or newer 2017-05-15T21:59:53Z pjb: John[Lisbeth]: but nowadays, I would say that if your list is bigger than your cache (depending on the level? VM, L1, L2?), it will be faster to build it in order, but if the list is smaller, then it will be faster to nreverse. 2017-05-15T22:00:05Z pjb: 2008 computers had cache… 2017-05-15T22:00:27Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-15T22:00:36Z pjb: So, do you blow your caches? 2017-05-15T22:01:06Z John[Lisbeth]: I wanna optomize for big lists 2017-05-15T22:03:10Z xaotuk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-15T22:03:14Z pjb: Then build the list in order. 2017-05-15T22:03:18Z John[Lisbeth]: thanks 2017-05-15T22:03:39Z eschatologist quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-05-15T22:05:13Z eschatologist joined #lisp 2017-05-15T22:09:12Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-05-15T22:10:21Z emaczen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-15T22:10:24Z vtomole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-05-15T22:11:20Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-05-15T22:11:39Z troydm quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-05-15T22:13:21Z troydm joined #lisp 2017-05-15T22:13:47Z sebboh: rumbler31 was right: (uiop:copy-file "/media/sf_projects/diagrams/work-todo.png" (format nil "/media/sf_projects/diagrams/work-todo/~A.png" (get-unix-time))) 2017-05-15T22:14:28Z sebboh: internally I guess it uses a syscall and is probably an order of magnitude faster than my previous method, calling /bin/cp 2017-05-15T22:15:45Z _death: it's also a toy file-copy program 2017-05-15T22:16:26Z pve quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-05-15T22:16:30Z didi joined #lisp 2017-05-15T22:18:16Z didi: Why (nth 42 nil) => nil but (elt nil 42) => error? 2017-05-15T22:19:17Z jasom: didi: because nth only operates on lists, and traditionally going past the end of a list returns nil 2017-05-15T22:19:53Z didi: jasom: Interesting. 2017-05-15T22:20:12Z jasom: (caddr nil) => nil 2017-05-15T22:20:25Z didi: List functions don't seem to generally error. 2017-05-15T22:20:29Z burtons quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-05-15T22:20:30Z didi: (last nil) => nil 2017-05-15T22:20:35Z didi: jasom: Indeed. 2017-05-15T22:21:36Z eazar001 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2017-05-15T22:22:04Z didi: Tho (pop nil) errors. 2017-05-15T22:22:25Z _death: pop takes a place 2017-05-15T22:22:35Z didi: Right. 2017-05-15T22:23:27Z jasom: (let ((x nil)) (pop x)) ought not error, right? 2017-05-15T22:23:36Z _death: right 2017-05-15T22:24:08Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-05-15T22:24:09Z jasom: so (pop nil) erroring isn't any more interesting than (setf nil 1) erroring. 2017-05-15T22:24:48Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-05-15T22:25:07Z _death: what about (setf (values) 1) :) 2017-05-15T22:25:50Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-15T22:26:15Z jasom would think that this is fine 2017-05-15T22:26:32Z orivej quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2017-05-15T22:27:31Z pillton: It is interesting that nth differs to elt. 2017-05-15T22:27:44Z pillton: elt requires a valid sequence index. 2017-05-15T22:27:59Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-05-15T22:28:24Z pillton: Thus it is undefined what happens if you go past the end. 2017-05-15T22:28:32Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-05-15T22:29:07Z _death: jasom: yes, it's fine 2017-05-15T22:29:39Z phoe: pillton: mostly because ELT accepts sequences, not lists. 2017-05-15T22:29:39Z minion: phoe, memo from pjb: in CLUS, it would be nice if the parts that are identical to CLHS were distinguishable from the part that you re-phrased. 2017-05-15T22:29:49Z phoe: pjb: it's being worked on. 2017-05-15T22:29:56Z phoe: I'm working on full diffs. 2017-05-15T22:30:22Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2017-05-15T22:30:23Z phoe: pillton: and AFAIK taking a 10th element of a 4-element array is an error, therefore undefined. 2017-05-15T22:30:51Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2017-05-15T22:31:29Z zulu_inuoe joined #lisp 2017-05-15T22:31:39Z fourier joined #lisp 2017-05-15T22:34:27Z pjb: phoe: great. 2017-05-15T22:36:15Z Harag1 joined #lisp 2017-05-15T22:36:18Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-05-15T22:36:18Z Harag1 is now known as Harag 2017-05-15T22:37:08Z pillton: phoe: No. It is undefined also. 2017-05-15T22:38:29Z phoe: pillton: oh - my mistake then. 2017-05-15T22:38:48Z pillton: phoe: subscripts --- a list of valid array indices for the array. 2017-05-15T22:39:47Z _death: the clhs gives hint as to why nth works that way, with its equivalence to (car (nthcdr ...)) 2017-05-15T22:40:01Z pillton: phoe: Which falls back to 'Except as explicitly specified otherwise, the consequences are undefined if these type restrictions are violated.' in clhs 1.4.4.3. 2017-05-15T22:41:51Z Harag1 joined #lisp 2017-05-15T22:43:24Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-05-15T22:43:24Z Harag1 is now known as Harag 2017-05-15T22:43:59Z pjb: however, both are accessors, and (let ((l (list 1 2))) (setf (nth 42 l) 0) l) #| ERROR: 42 is too large an index for SETF of NTH. |# 2017-05-15T22:46:00Z _death: (setf (car nil) 42) is also an error.. it's just the implementors doing you a favour with a nicer reason 2017-05-15T22:46:29Z _death: (imagine a place instead of nil) 2017-05-15T22:50:51Z _death: (actually, there's no need for it to be a place, since (car ...) designates a place.. yet another indicator that I need to go to sleep ;) 2017-05-15T22:51:27Z azzamsa joined #lisp 2017-05-15T22:51:47Z ryanwatkins joined #lisp 2017-05-15T22:56:01Z Harag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-05-15T22:57:06Z azzamsa: found good random pic Lisp https://i.warosu.org/data/g/img/0435/14/1407753601833.jpg 2017-05-15T22:58:22Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-05-15T22:58:37Z azzamsa: it the combination of Conrad lisp logo and girl. 2017-05-15T23:00:33Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-05-15T23:03:23Z attila_lendvai quit (Read error: No route to host) 2017-05-15T23:03:34Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-05-15T23:03:34Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2017-05-15T23:03:34Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-05-15T23:07:10Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-05-15T23:07:13Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-05-15T23:08:23Z Lowl3v3l quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-05-15T23:09:17Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-05-15T23:09:18Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-05-15T23:10:46Z sebboh: Is there some reason (let ((multi-return (fun-that-does-multi-return))) (log:debug (nth-value 1 multi-return))) doesn't seem to be storing the multiple return items into multi-return and then letting me access them at my leisure? 2017-05-15T23:11:20Z Bike: uh, yeah. let doesn't bind all values, just the primary one. 2017-05-15T23:11:26Z sebboh: I'm willing to accept "you don't know how to use let" as the root cause, but I-- ok. 2017-05-15T23:11:34Z rme: plain let doesn't bind multiple values. use multiple-value-bind. 2017-05-15T23:11:36Z sebboh: That explains it all. 2017-05-15T23:11:40Z Bike: you can use multiple-value-list to save a list of them. or multiple value bind 2017-05-15T23:11:59Z safe joined #lisp 2017-05-15T23:12:04Z sebboh: ok. 2017-05-15T23:14:44Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-05-15T23:15:39Z didi: If you are designing a queue data type, popping from an empty list: 1. errors 2. returns nil 3. returns (values nil nil), like `gethash'? 2017-05-15T23:15:50Z didi: empty *queue 2017-05-15T23:16:55Z Bike: popping from an empty queue, you mean? 2017-05-15T23:17:12Z phinxy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-05-15T23:17:19Z didi: Bike: Trying to retrieve the next value, like in a stack. 2017-05-15T23:17:19Z aeth: There are two common ways to do a queue, one uses lists and the other uses vectors. You don't need to use lists. 2017-05-15T23:17:22Z Bike: just do whatever's convenient for you, anyway. 2017-05-15T23:17:31Z rme: In (prefix) dylan, you could say (bind ((foo bar baz) (values 1 2 3))) ...). I've seen at least a couple of attempts at fancy alternative binding macros that try to unify let/m-v-b/etc. 2017-05-15T23:17:52Z Xach: rg's bb made my eyes bleed 2017-05-15T23:18:21Z pjb: sebboh: it's not because of LET. It's just the way multiple values work. 2017-05-15T23:18:23Z rme: But I just prefer the status quo. Love is blind, I guess. 2017-05-15T23:18:28Z didi: aeth: Thanks, but the implementation is not an issue right now, but how the function should behave when receiving an empty queue. 2017-05-15T23:19:28Z aeth: didi: If you want to make it parallel stacks (which are built-in), they just return NIL when empty, e.g. (let ((foo (list 1))) (pop foo) (pop foo)) 2017-05-15T23:20:41Z didi: aeth: I feel that POP returns NIL more because it expects a list than anything else. 2017-05-15T23:20:46Z aeth: yes. 2017-05-15T23:21:21Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-05-15T23:21:22Z didi: I am abstracting the underlying implementation, so I feel I can choose another way. I am not sure which one tho. 2017-05-15T23:22:09Z aeth: The other stack in CL errors with "There is nothing left to pop": (let ((foo (make-array 3 :adjustable t :fill-pointer 3 :initial-contents '(0 1 2)))) (vector-pop foo) (vector-pop foo) (vector-pop foo) (vector-pop foo)) 2017-05-15T23:23:15Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-05-15T23:23:20Z didi: Hum. 2017-05-15T23:23:25Z didi: aeth: Interesting. 2017-05-15T23:24:38Z didi: aeth: Thank you. 2017-05-15T23:26:28Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-05-15T23:27:07Z azzamsa quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-05-15T23:28:03Z Baggers quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-15T23:30:48Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-15T23:34:13Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-15T23:35:54Z prole quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.2.1)) 2017-05-15T23:37:47Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-05-15T23:39:36Z sebboh: pjb, I see. I am not aware of a situtation where I'd rather use multi-vals than a list. Probably a common use case is so that the extra values are there if you need them, but you want access to the first value by default. Seems like a job for a quick (car ...) or (first ...) to me, but obviously there's some reason. 2017-05-15T23:41:27Z pjb: sebboh: building lists is slow (you have to store them in memory). multiple values stay in the registers. 2017-05-15T23:44:23Z aeth: sebboh: Ime, multiple values are a good way to represent a small number of things, better than even arrays, let alone lists. 2017-05-15T23:44:42Z aeth: Run disassemble on some simple test cases and see what's going on. 2017-05-15T23:45:25Z aeth: This is if performance matters. 2017-05-15T23:46:09Z didi: `gethash' is a nice example of multiple values. 2017-05-15T23:46:44Z aeth: It's the perfect example, actually. 2017-05-15T23:46:51Z aeth: There are some math functions that return two values, too. 2017-05-15T23:46:57Z Harag joined #lisp 2017-05-15T23:47:08Z aeth: e.g. (floor 11.5) 2017-05-15T23:47:40Z aeth: It's especially useful if you usually care about the first value more than the rest. 2017-05-15T23:49:26Z aeth: I would hesitate returning more than 4 values, though. I'm sure at some point, implementations become inefficient, but I'm not sure where the modern limit is. 2017-05-15T23:49:40Z aeth: (get-decoded-time) returns 9 values and that's by far the most I've seen. 2017-05-15T23:52:41Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2017-05-15T23:54:25Z emacsoma` joined #lisp 2017-05-15T23:57:54Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.)