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2017-05-12T00:22:49Z John[Lisbeth]: Iv've got something along the lines of (foo arg1 arg2 (progn (clause1) (foo arg3 arg4 (progn (clause1) (clause2))))) However I need clause3 to evaluate to the first call of foo
2017-05-12T00:23:18Z John[Lisbeth]: rather I need cluase2 to be the first call to foo when called
2017-05-12T00:25:59Z Bike: what?
2017-05-12T00:26:04Z Bike: what does being "the first call to foo" mean.
2017-05-12T00:26:24Z Bike: also, doing side effects in arguments should really be avoided.
2017-05-12T00:27:19Z John[Lisbeth]: this code deals with a piece of lisp that already has side effects
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2017-05-12T00:37:03Z John[Lisbeth]: nvm I got it
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2017-05-12T03:19:28Z smokeink: in lispworks is it possible to override a capi interface's/window's WndProc ? I've defined a window and a WndProc like this : http://paste.lisp.org/display/346406
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2017-05-12T03:22:38Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-05-12T03:23:31Z smokeink: morning
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2017-05-12T06:13:55Z Jonsky: hello
2017-05-12T06:14:21Z beach: Hello Jonsky.
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2017-05-12T06:22:49Z presiden: hi Jonsky
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2017-05-12T06:26:39Z koisoke: has anyone here used the x64 opengenera port? does it work well enough to be worthwhile?
2017-05-12T06:27:21Z otwieracz: p_l: ↑
2017-05-12T06:30:07Z p_l: koisoke: what do you mean by worthwhile?
2017-05-12T06:32:52Z edgar-rft: it might be worth for a while
2017-05-12T06:33:05Z p_l: generally everything that worked on OpenGenera works
2017-05-12T06:33:15Z koisoke: is it crash- and corruption-free?
2017-05-12T06:33:31Z koisoke: ok. thanks
2017-05-12T06:33:50Z edgar-rft: nobody is corruption-free
2017-05-12T06:34:05Z p_l: koisoke: there are tricks necessary to mske it run, exact set depends on version of the ported VLM and versiin of the OS
2017-05-12T06:34:42Z p_l: the snap4 bjnary has some arithmetic bugs but they don't stop you from exploring Genera
2017-05-12T06:35:56Z p_l: there's either a requirement to use ancient X11 (XOrg 6.x or older, Xsun also works) or patching the X11 code in genera (eqsiky doable)
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2017-05-12T06:37:34Z p_l: i recommend setting up a dedicated VM for it anyway, as the VLMs that were ported to ljnux had some stuff hardcoded, plus Genera wants unix crypt() passwords in passwd (or in NIS classic)
2017-05-12T06:37:51Z p_l: chaosnet works
2017-05-12T06:38:26Z p_l: running NS or Macsyma requires either license (haha fat chance) or cracking then
2017-05-12T06:39:00Z p_l: NS also wants X11 to run in in 8bit colour, otherwise it gets confused
2017-05-12T06:39:42Z koisoke: hm. i have a file opengenera2.tar.bz2 i downloaded in early 2012 that has no version information i can find
2017-05-12T06:40:10Z koisoke: sha1sum 91ae5a596da3551aeac500e0bb0e07cf5e105045 if that helps at all
2017-05-12T06:40:22Z p_l: that's probably contents of the og2 cd, but you still need ported VLM line snap4
2017-05-12T06:41:11Z p_l: on the phone right now, so i can't link you the right files or pages
2017-05-12T06:41:27Z koisoke: np
2017-05-12T06:42:16Z koisoke: ah yes. found a separate snap4.tar.gz
2017-05-12T06:42:51Z koisoke: sorry. torrented these >5 years ago and happened upon them digging through backups
2017-05-12T06:42:54Z Jonsky: just did some googling, is this open genera a emulation of the old lisp machine?
2017-05-12T06:43:25Z koisoke: snap4 tarball apparently aug 7 2006
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2017-05-12T06:43:50Z koisoke: Jonsky: it is a port of symbolics (of lisp machine fame) genera to a vm running on dec alpha that was later ported to x64
2017-05-12T06:45:13Z Jonsky: aha, it's more about nostalgia than having a more convenient OS to work/play?
2017-05-12T06:46:51Z beach: Jonsky: It could give some ideas about a development environment to aim for.
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2017-05-12T06:47:16Z Jonsky: looks fun, will play with it later.
2017-05-12T06:47:26Z p_l: Jonsky: stable version on Alpha was used for development at AMEX as late as 2001
2017-05-12T06:47:34Z Jonsky: (if I ever got it running...)
2017-05-12T06:47:53Z p_l: the amd64 port is... less stable and hacky
2017-05-12T06:48:15Z p_l: because it's essentially a hacked up recompile of alpha assembly into C
2017-05-12T06:49:36Z p_l: also, Symbolics ended up on life support before they finished their plans with OpenGenera, so some stuff available on physical machines is missing
2017-05-12T06:49:56Z koisoke: afaik they still have kalman reti + one sales and accounts guy?
2017-05-12T06:50:44Z p_l: it's mostly dks who afaik sometimes contracts out to other former Symbolics employees
2017-05-12T06:51:08Z koisoke: dks == the one guy whose name i was blanking on
2017-05-12T06:51:12Z p_l: dks keeps the support contracts alive
2017-05-12T06:51:37Z koisoke: is there a particular os version you recommend to run in a vm for least hassle getting this up?
2017-05-12T06:51:51Z p_l: if you want a stable OpenGenera install with less hassle, grab an Alpha with Digital Unix 4.0
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2017-05-12T06:52:06Z koisoke: :P
2017-05-12T06:52:27Z p_l: for amd64, I've been using Ubuntu 6.06 or so?
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2017-05-12T06:53:07Z p_l: but there are quickstart scripts and such to use a newer version, if you're still here in few hours I'll give links
2017-05-12T06:55:05Z koisoke: thanks
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2017-05-12T06:55:39Z koisoke: ubuntu 6.06 would be library compatible with ehm.. debian etch?
2017-05-12T06:55:59Z otwieracz: with debian stable
2017-05-12T06:56:07Z otwieracz: ;)
2017-05-12T06:56:27Z koisoke: etch was current stable once
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2017-05-12T06:57:40Z Jonsky: I just looked at the screen shot. How can I use it without a Lisp machine keyboard?
2017-05-12T06:58:01Z p_l: Jonsky: there's mapping
2017-05-12T06:58:17Z Jonsky: There's no "help" button or "select " button on my laptop...
2017-05-12T06:58:21Z p_l: also, one can develop their own mappings
2017-05-12T06:58:46Z p_l: Jonsky: it's mostky F keys that are mapped to them
2017-05-12T06:58:54Z p_l: F1 is Select
2017-05-12T06:59:03Z p_l: F6 is Abort
2017-05-12T06:59:16Z p_l: F5 is iirc Resume
2017-05-12T06:59:27Z p_l: F11 is Complete
2017-05-12T06:59:48Z koisoke: if i have here a lisp machine primer with a coupon/order form for an example code tape for $40, would i be a terrible person if i sent it to dks?
2017-05-12T06:59:50Z p_l: you can enter Document Examiner with F1 D
2017-05-12T06:59:57Z Cymew: Jeebus, what do you need an ubuntu 6.06 for?! That ancient!
2017-05-12T07:00:10Z p_l: Cymew: for ancient X.Org
2017-05-12T07:00:19Z Cymew: Oh, VLM?
2017-05-12T07:00:22Z p_l: yes
2017-05-12T07:00:35Z p_l: also, that's around when snap4 was compiled
2017-05-12T07:00:38Z koisoke: *not that i have a 9-track machine here
2017-05-12T07:01:03Z p_l: koisoke: DKS might not have the tapes anymore
2017-05-12T07:01:10Z Cymew: koisoke: You have some hoop hopping in front of you, if you're trying to get VLM running.
2017-05-12T07:01:42Z p_l: Cymew: it's easier these days, but i can't post links right now
2017-05-12T07:02:01Z Cymew: ah. I might be interested in those as well. I almost got it working once.
2017-05-12T07:02:36Z p_l: oh, found some bits from phone
2017-05-12T07:02:39Z p_l: http://www.loomcom.com/genera/genera-install.html
2017-05-12T07:02:50Z p_l: includes fixes for newer distros
2017-05-12T07:02:58Z koisoke: p_l: thanks
2017-05-12T07:03:37Z p_l: I also recommend using Motif Window Manager with it :-P
2017-05-12T07:04:07Z p_l: preferably inside Xephyr window, just in case something goes screwy with x11
2017-05-12T07:04:41Z p_l: i have regular issues in unpatched OpenGenera where xterms can't get lowercase
2017-05-12T07:05:19Z koisoke: how would the window manager impact character decoding of clients?
2017-05-12T07:06:27Z Cymew: Looks familiar that tutorial. Seems to remember I had issues with the network part. Might have to get back to it some day.
2017-05-12T07:06:37Z p_l: koisoke: not WM, that's for ensuring WM interaction goes right,Xephyr is recommended to isolate keyboard modifier state
2017-05-12T07:07:23Z koisoke: ah *nod*
2017-05-12T07:08:08Z koisoke: x11 keyboard handling is ensaddening
2017-05-12T07:08:17Z p_l: https://symbolics.lisp.engineer/ useful site, among other things there are adventures in writing your own X11 keyboard mappjng for Genera
2017-05-12T07:08:45Z p_l: koisoke: don't worry, Wayland will break it even more
2017-05-12T07:09:53Z koisoke: have not yet used wayland depsite it being around for quite awhile
2017-05-12T07:10:22Z koisoke: but xmodmap is deprecated and doesn't affect anything while Xkb is mostly undocumented and has quirks of its own and ..
2017-05-12T07:10:46Z koisoke: wish there was an explicit dispatch table one could manipulate
2017-05-12T07:10:47Z loke`: koisoke: At least with some effory you can coerce xkb to do what you want.
2017-05-12T07:11:00Z koisoke: loke`: in principle yes
2017-05-12T07:11:16Z loke` has managed to set up a reasonable keymap with most symbols I need, along with compose combinations as well as both hyper and super keymappings.
2017-05-12T07:11:42Z loke` just cargoculted the enitre thing after reading the existing files.
2017-05-12T07:12:04Z koisoke: *with the exception of x clients that read raw keycodes and break all the compose mappings
2017-05-12T07:12:47Z p_l: koisoke: VMware devs sctually complain that there's no real way to do so, unlike on Windows
2017-05-12T07:13:08Z koisoke: p_l: ?
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2017-05-12T07:13:39Z p_l: so there's documented way to specify manually scancodes for each x11 keycode in vmware config files
2017-05-12T07:14:21Z koisoke: vmware+x11 seems an odd combo
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2017-05-12T07:14:51Z p_l: anyway, compose mappings should be bypassed for some applications anyway,just like you have different terminal modes
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2017-05-12T07:17:43Z koisoke: for some applications, but it was pretty frustrating not being able to use mappings in firefox for theh longest time
2017-05-12T07:17:51Z p_l: and why is VMware and X11 a weird combination?
2017-05-12T07:18:28Z p_l: ehh, Firefox should not bypass things... but it uses GTK which doesn't believe in world outside of GNOME running on Wayland
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2017-05-12T07:19:22Z Cymew: There's your answer to why keyboard handling in linux suck.
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2017-05-12T07:19:59Z koisoke: it's odd that vmware would have special magic for something that is usually used locally but on a HV usually used for servers with no local console
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2017-05-12T07:21:03Z koisoke: p_l: i ran into this first in 2007, which overlaps with wayland but was a time when gtk and gnome still targeted x11 as the default environment
2017-05-12T07:21:07Z p_l: I remember how relieved I've been for not using ibus when GNOME devs deleted code for per-window ime state
2017-05-12T07:21:32Z p_l: koisoke: so some other weirdness
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2017-05-12T07:22:43Z koisoke: raw input and hardcoded compose table afair
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2017-05-12T08:38:51Z smokeink: in lispworks is it possible to override a capi interface's/window's WndProc ? I've defined a window and a WndProc like this : http://paste.lisp.org/display/346406
2017-05-12T08:44:52Z beach: smokeink: You already asked that.
2017-05-12T08:45:57Z beach: smokeink: The best thing would probably be to ask the people at Lispworks.
2017-05-12T08:46:45Z smokeink: okay
2017-05-12T08:51:33Z p_l: koisoke: https://github.com/sethm/docker-vlm <--- might be also of use, though personally I had to heavily modify it
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2017-05-12T08:52:09Z koisoke: p_l: thanks. will have to give it a go later
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2017-05-12T11:15:23Z dim: Hi!
2017-05-12T11:16:07Z dim: so I have a problem with CCL in FreeBSD not finding the image of a binary image (that is supposed to be self-contained, right?) built with buildapp (hi Xach)
2017-05-12T11:16:10Z dim: https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/issues/551#issuecomment-300971266
2017-05-12T11:16:30Z dim: is anyone savvy enough to have a look? thx!
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2017-05-12T11:18:14Z phoe: dim: #ccl might be able to help more
2017-05-12T11:19:06Z dim: trying then, thx
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2017-05-12T11:26:25Z phoe: Damn!
2017-05-12T11:26:32Z phoe: I do not need a LZMA decompressor.
2017-05-12T11:26:37Z phoe: I need a compressor!
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2017-05-12T11:34:04Z Younder: An fpga is the way to go.
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2017-05-12T11:35:48Z Younder: Xilinx ultra-Scale is the way to go, according to themselves
2017-05-12T11:36:38Z Younder: is a 1000$ tag is your friend and you are into circuit design
2017-05-12T11:37:09Z Younder: is not Spartan-6's are more affordable
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2017-05-12T11:39:24Z Younder: Field Programmable Program Logic is actually cool. been exploring it for a couple of months now.
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2017-05-12T11:40:37Z Younder: Desiging 6 motor controllers (4 DC and 2 steppers) and a 5 GHz radio (digital)
2017-05-12T11:40:58Z Younder: All of a Spartan-6
2017-05-12T11:41:55Z holycow: *blink*
2017-05-12T11:41:58Z holycow: yup
2017-05-12T11:42:01Z holycow: i'm still in #lisp
2017-05-12T11:42:06Z holycow: lol
2017-05-12T11:42:23Z jackdaniel: congrats (I guess)
2017-05-12T11:42:30Z holycow: hehe :)
2017-05-12T11:42:40Z holycow: hi jackdaniel.  hows mclim coming along?
2017-05-12T11:42:53Z Younder: My hardware fliert has been cool
2017-05-12T11:43:01Z p_l: holycow: I once made a mistake in channel-switching and put out an impressive rant about something in the wrong channell...
2017-05-12T11:43:06Z jackdaniel: I'm working on clx backend problems now
2017-05-12T11:43:16Z holycow: p_l: heh, nice.
2017-05-12T11:43:40Z Younder: That was supposed to go out on #raspberrypi which is more into hardware
2017-05-12T11:43:50Z jackdaniel: well, "working", I try to make one of them more bearable
2017-05-12T11:44:16Z holycow: jackdaniel: i don't have time exactly right now. however, i used to be a graphic designer.  how can i help spiffy up the widgets?  i did not see many graphic files in the repos .. it is using native x widgets or something?
2017-05-12T11:45:20Z jackdaniel: it's drawn programatically
2017-05-12T11:45:24Z jackdaniel: look for handle-repaint methods
2017-05-12T11:45:30Z holycow: ohhhhhhhh.
2017-05-12T11:45:33Z jackdaniel: for instance in gadgets.lisp
2017-05-12T11:45:34Z holycow: huh. interesting.
2017-05-12T11:46:00Z jackdaniel: it *can* use native widgets, but it's not the case with this backend as it is now
2017-05-12T11:46:22Z holycow: oh its all good. so this opens up the obvious question
2017-05-12T11:47:00Z holycow: any thoughts on how this might be abstracted out such that designers could write up / design updates to the widgets?
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2017-05-12T11:47:31Z jackdaniel: I was thinking about that lately, but I don't have (yet) clear idea how to support "theming"
2017-05-12T11:47:48Z jackdaniel: I'll keep in mind, that you are willing to help with that (and that you have design skills) - you've been warned :-)
2017-05-12T11:47:49Z holycow: aha.  well, i LOVE that it is drawn programmatically
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2017-05-12T11:47:59Z holycow: jackdaniel: put me on your hit list
2017-05-12T11:48:00Z holycow: :)
2017-05-12T11:48:05Z jackdaniel: sure, thanks!
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2017-05-12T11:48:27Z holycow: the fact it is programmatic opens up a lot of opportunities for desing AND rendering
2017-05-12T11:48:32Z holycow: also cross platform capability
2017-05-12T11:48:47Z holycow: thanks for the heads up.
2017-05-12T11:49:02Z jackdaniel: I'd love to see it more in line with material design (for the portable widgets)
2017-05-12T11:49:02Z Younder: Verilog and VHDL and C is how FPGA programming is done these days. No circuit diagrams.
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2017-05-12T11:51:30Z holycow: jackdaniel: you mean this: https://material.io/gallery/  ... ?
2017-05-12T11:51:33Z Younder: jackdaniel, Anyhow nice to talk to you again. I understand you snubbed me when I just joined.
2017-05-12T11:51:45Z jackdaniel: http://hellsgate.pl/files/4599b88b (example of how mcclim paints its widgets)
2017-05-12T11:52:29Z holycow: aha! i was grepping
2017-05-12T11:52:41Z jackdaniel: yeah, it's on material.io
2017-05-12T11:52:50Z Younder: I am not against CLISP I just felt that consolidating out lisp efforts might lead to a more mature compiler.
2017-05-12T11:53:05Z jackdaniel: it's developed by google, but implemented in a few places (android of course, but also some JS frameworks)
2017-05-12T11:53:19Z Younder: It seems that most of comp.lang.lisp opposes this so so be it.
2017-05-12T11:54:39Z jackdaniel: re material.io, especially this: https://material.io/guidelines/
2017-05-12T11:55:22Z jackdaniel: afk for a while, see you later
2017-05-12T11:55:37Z holycow: thanks for info.  ttyl.
2017-05-12T11:56:22Z Younder: Don't any of you lispers do hardware anymore?
2017-05-12T11:56:50Z holycow: Younder: not me.  i'm a new.  i have been looking to get into it, i want to build my own cel phone
2017-05-12T11:57:06Z holycow: newb even
2017-05-12T11:57:33Z holycow: i bought one of these: https://nextthing.co/pages/pocketchip
2017-05-12T11:57:41Z holycow: sbcl runs on that, just in stall from debian repo
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2017-05-12T11:58:14Z holycow: but i want an sbc with a 4g modem on it and then write the interface in lisp
2017-05-12T11:58:48Z Younder: I love that touch of steel in the morning ;-)
2017-05-12T11:59:56Z holycow: do you use lisp with hardware?
2017-05-12T12:01:26Z Younder: Yes and no. I write using sockets to interface to C code using FPGA.
2017-05-12T12:01:57Z holycow: your own projects i presume?  what kinds of things are you building?
2017-05-12T12:02:55Z Younder: The only laptop with a buildt in FPGA is Novea anyhow. So it is going to be some sort of interface
2017-05-12T12:06:09Z Younder: holycow, I am building quad-copter. I got bored with kits so I set out to develop custom ESP (Electronic speed control for motors) and a custom radion which could handle Video as well as input to the controls.
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2017-05-12T12:06:50Z holycow: neat
2017-05-12T12:07:24Z p_l: holycow: if you want to make a phone, go to Shenzhen, get yourself some modem chips + interface, and a chip for application processor :)
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2017-05-12T12:08:15Z holycow: p_l: i saw video of a programmer that did just that but with iphone parts. he bought everything and put it together and it worked.
2017-05-12T12:08:24Z holycow: :) i may have to do that indeed!
2017-05-12T12:08:41Z p_l: probably not iPhone parts actually, given that it wouldn't have the keys and such...
2017-05-12T12:09:02Z p_l: otoh, people have booted iOS on a certain HTC phone...
2017-05-12T12:09:14Z holycow: he bought all the parts separately, even the buttons
2017-05-12T12:09:47Z p_l: doesn't mean you get the cryptokeys or early firmware
2017-05-12T12:09:55Z holycow: i think this is it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leFuF-zoVzA
2017-05-12T12:09:56Z p_l: especiall since those are burned-in at programming tme
2017-05-12T12:09:58Z p_l: *time
2017-05-12T12:10:00Z holycow: oh, you are right
2017-05-12T12:10:02Z Younder: I liked the Hardware hacker by Andrew 'bunny' Huang. Available at amazon
2017-05-12T12:10:15Z holycow: he just got whatever crap was on a refub sbc for those things
2017-05-12T12:10:47Z holycow: Younder: bunny is amazing.  his laptop is a wicked project.
2017-05-12T12:11:47Z p_l: holycow: you might want to grab an old HTC HD2 and experiment with it - people have run pretty much everything on it, so there's docs to all parts
2017-05-12T12:12:37Z holycow: oh
2017-05-12T12:12:47Z holycow: this has an amd z430 for the gpu
2017-05-12T12:12:48Z holycow: huh
2017-05-12T12:13:54Z Younder: Well the Novea is now history. He is still working on CitBittroics
2017-05-12T12:14:04Z p_l: holycow: an ancestor of current Qualcomm GPUs
2017-05-12T12:14:44Z holycow: aha
2017-05-12T12:15:13Z holycow: i have also ordered one of these: https://pyra-handheld.com/boards/pages/pyra/
2017-05-12T12:15:26Z holycow: won't have accelerated graphics but should be fun to play with
2017-05-12T12:15:52Z holycow: p_l: that is a neat device, thx for the idea
2017-05-12T12:16:10Z Younder: Call me old-facioned, but I wen't for a Jetson-TX2
2017-05-12T12:17:11Z Younder: I wanted computer vision. They gave the most mature software.
2017-05-12T12:17:28Z p_l: ouch, denver
2017-05-12T12:17:48Z Younder: And.. It fits on a creditcard and uses 9 watts'
2017-05-12T12:18:01Z Younder: pretty cool
2017-05-12T12:18:15Z p_l: don't recall if you can disable the ARM emulation on it
2017-05-12T12:19:02Z phoe: minion: memo for pjb: I'm in more trouble with LZMA because I will need a compressor. A decompressor for LZMA is fully specified but a compressor is not, I have the source code in C, C++, C# and Java.
2017-05-12T12:19:04Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell pjb when he/she/it next speaks.
2017-05-12T12:19:05Z jackdaniel: if I had too much time, I would hack on my xperia z1 compact, which has open bootloader
2017-05-12T12:19:05Z Younder: 256 CUDA cores 2 denver procesors (pipelined ARM's) and altso 4 ARM's
2017-05-12T12:19:14Z p_l: ahh, TX2 uses both A57 and Denver
2017-05-12T12:19:17Z jackdaniel: and pretty nice hardware underneath
2017-05-12T12:19:23Z p_l: Younder: Denver is not, actually, an ARM cpu
2017-05-12T12:19:41Z p_l: it happens that it will run ARM code, but that's because of firmware containing ARM emulator
2017-05-12T12:19:53Z Younder: p_l, No that is true it is ARM compatible
2017-05-12T12:20:01Z holycow: that jetson tx2 sbc look neat
2017-05-12T12:20:18Z p_l: hmm, i do have some denver chip in my backpack...
2017-05-12T12:22:26Z |3b|: $550 for tx2 though :/ looks like tx1 is down to $435
2017-05-12T12:23:08Z Younder: TX2 was released in april
2017-05-12T12:23:43Z Younder: It still cost's a pretty foruune
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2017-05-12T12:24:20Z Younder: Well 'm still working with a TX1
2017-05-12T12:26:30Z phoe: ...
2017-05-12T12:26:46Z phoe: I'm really considering CFFI instead of writing my own LZMA compressor.
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2017-05-12T12:26:59Z phoe: This is too damn big for me.
2017-05-12T12:27:25Z Younder: No hardware hackers left alive.
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2017-05-12T12:33:19Z _death: phoe: yes, use cffi
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2017-05-12T13:25:26Z beach: holycow: I would love to see a set of gadgets for McCLIM with a design considered beautiful by today's standards.  It would be fine to pick some inspiration from material design, but it would also be fine with me to invent a totally new style.
2017-05-12T13:25:47Z holycow: hi beach
2017-05-12T13:25:55Z beach: Hello!
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2017-05-12T13:26:06Z holycow: sweet.  i will try to set some time aside this summer and work on that.
2017-05-12T13:26:18Z beach: That would be very very nice!
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2017-05-12T13:26:34Z holycow: make sure to bug me if the itch strikes, i may forget (although its in my ticket tracker)
2017-05-12T13:26:49Z beach: Yes, you will be reminded. :)
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2017-05-12T13:43:52Z splittist: Are there applications that use the 'native' gadgets any more? Leading browsers, office applications, messaging, Adobe etc. don't seem to.
2017-05-12T13:44:31Z beach doesn't know.
2017-05-12T13:44:51Z holycow: well, apple, gnome, kde apps seem to
2017-05-12T13:45:03Z holycow: i guess you are correct tho
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2017-05-12T14:20:19Z jackdaniel: splittist: most android applications too
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2017-05-12T14:20:35Z jackdaniel: gnome applications tend to use same set of gadgets as well
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2017-05-12T14:42:07Z antoszka: Anybody dabbled with writing a milter daemon in CL? Planning to write one, and don't want to NIH if work's already been done.
2017-05-12T14:42:54Z antoszka: Oh, actually just found this: http://wcp.sdf-eu.org/software/
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2017-05-12T14:45:01Z antoszka: Looks like most is there, cool.
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2017-05-12T20:15:06Z Baggers: I'm struggling with this extent note from sbcl https://gist.github.com/cbaggers/df77de48f43b879a7b086cac53379e46. I havent been able to work out what it is protect against and thus what its suggestions mean. Could anyone offer an alternate explanation?
2017-05-12T20:17:12Z phoe: Baggers: https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/master/src/compiler/physenvanal.lisp#L304
2017-05-12T20:17:17Z phoe: the relevant source code
2017-05-12T20:19:06Z phoe: Baggers: this seems like very implementation-specific #sbcl stuff
2017-05-12T20:19:53Z phoe: ...also, I cannot reproduce this
2017-05-12T20:20:03Z phoe: what SBCL version are you using? I am on 1.3.14debian
2017-05-12T20:20:54Z Bike: i get it on 1.3.15. remember you don't get style warnings at the repl
2017-05-12T20:21:18Z phoe: oh right, I did it in the REPL
2017-05-12T20:21:50Z phoe: I can reproduce.
2017-05-12T20:21:53Z Baggers: phoe: thanks. I dont know how to apply what I read there to fix the warning, but it is interesting. Yeah its fairly a sbcl specific warning but the terminology seemed fairly normal lisp stuff (extent etc) so I wanted to try here first.
2017-05-12T20:21:57Z _death: from what I gather, the escape function is not declared to have dynamic-extent, so code to check that the return-from in it is ok is generated
2017-05-12T20:21:59Z Baggers: Im on 1.3.8
2017-05-12T20:22:26Z Baggers: _death: which is the escape function in this case?
2017-05-12T20:22:42Z Bike: "FIXME: If we ever get DYNAMIC-EXTENT working, then ,CLEANUP-FUN should probably be declared DYNAMIC-EXTENT, and something can be done to make %ESCAPE-FUN have dynamic extent too."
2017-05-12T20:22:45Z Bike: imo... good times.
2017-05-12T20:23:07Z _death: (sb-c::%escape-fun #:exit-tag-2)
2017-05-12T20:23:11Z Bike: so i think this might be not your problem.
2017-05-12T20:23:38Z Baggers: interesting. Ok then yeah I'll take this to #sbcl and see what they say
2017-05-12T20:23:47Z Baggers: thanks folks!
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2017-05-12T20:29:56Z jackdaniel: ieee question: how to check portably from repl, if signed zero is -0.0 or +0.0?
2017-05-12T20:30:50Z Bike: phase?
2017-05-12T20:31:39Z phoe: "phase returns the phase of number (the angle part of its polar representation) in radians, in the range -<PI> (exclusive) if minus zero is not supported, or -<PI> (inclusive) if minus zero is supported, to <PI> (inclusive). The phase of a positive real number is zero; that of a negative real number is <PI>."
2017-05-12T20:32:02Z phoe: Yes, it looks like phase of +0.0 should return 0 but phase of -0.0 should return -PI.
2017-05-12T20:32:12Z jackdaniel: thanks
2017-05-12T20:32:20Z Bike: on sbcl it returns pi... well, it's still not zero at least
2017-05-12T20:32:38Z jackdaniel: now I have two problems - bug in ECL and determining -0.0 :)
2017-05-12T20:32:59Z jackdaniel: but I guess I can do that part unportably, because these are innards. phase needs to be fixed though
2017-05-12T20:33:08Z phoe: Bike: wait, wuh
2017-05-12T20:33:08Z jackdaniel: (ecl returns 0.0 for both)
2017-05-12T20:33:36Z phoe: I mean, -pi and pi are equivalent in this case because the function is cyclic
2017-05-12T20:33:45Z phoe: but that's not how I interpret the spec
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2017-05-12T20:50:54Z Baggers: _death: Bike: phoe: stassats summary was that the note was bunk :) so I think I can safely ignore that
2017-05-12T20:53:53Z phoe: Baggers: recompile your sbcl with that compiler-notify commented out
2017-05-12T20:54:14Z phoe: so you also have a reason to upgrade to a more recent version ;D
2017-05-12T20:54:55Z Baggers: phoe: thanks but I'd rather not (comment it out I mean), then I wont know what's happening if a user reports it as an issue
2017-05-12T20:55:03Z Baggers: heh and yeah I should do that
2017-05-12T20:56:32Z Baggers: #+sbcl(declare (sb-ext:muffle-conditions sb-ext:compiler-note)) heals all
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2017-05-12T23:05:19Z aeth: My favorite thing about Common Lisp is probably #'disassemble.
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2017-05-12T23:05:49Z aeth: It tells me when something is worth my time to optimize and when it is not (assuming first that it's in a loop that needs to be optimized)
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2017-05-12T23:06:27Z aeth: I have probably found dozens of surprises in the disassembly.
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