2017-05-11T00:00:00Z Bike: "nothing more to read" isn't the same as "end of file" though
2017-05-11T00:00:10Z vagrant`: I see
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2017-05-11T00:01:56Z ealfonso`: I'm writing a generic function that sends some data to a tcp host:port repl, so it's not clear to me how to know when to stop reading without being specific to the grammar of the repl output
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2017-05-11T00:02:56Z vagrant`: I do know that after 1-2 seconds of no input, I can stop reading. but there seems to be no way of interrupting (read-line) or setting a timeout
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2017-05-11T00:07:27Z ealfonso`: https://pastebin.com/LKnTFr9w
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2017-05-11T00:21:47Z ealfonso`: Bike you said '"nothing more to read" isn't the same as "end of file" though'. but wouldn't (listen ) return nil if there's nothing more to read?
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2017-05-11T00:25:31Z Bike: that's what it does.
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2017-05-11T00:32:57Z phoe: ealfonso`: usocket.
2017-05-11T00:33:45Z phoe: yes, USOCKET streams should respond properly to LISTEN.
2017-05-11T00:34:39Z phoe: When it comes to sockets, then AFAIK EOF is sadly reported in the same manner as LISTEN. That's the limitation that I encountered some time ago.
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2017-05-11T00:35:19Z phoe: You actually need to read the EOF from the stream in order to be sure that the socket was closed.
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2017-05-11T00:36:45Z phoe: I actually invented a PEEK-CHAR-NO-HANG function for that, that utilizes READ-CHAR-NO-HANG and UNREAD-CHAR, and that allows you to properly read EOF conditions without interrupting the normal flow of characters from the stream.
2017-05-11T00:37:13Z phoe: https://common-lisp.net/project/usocket/api-docs.shtml <- "Reading from a stream which has been closed at the remote end signals an END-OF-FILE condition, meaning that reading from the stream and detecting that condition is the way to do it."
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2017-05-11T04:54:54Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-05-11T04:57:08Z rjid: Good morning!
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2017-05-11T09:06:15Z flip214: phoe: http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3132642870691300@naggum.no.html
2017-05-11T09:06:22Z flip214: >  if we had a standard list notation for hash table
2017-05-11T09:06:29Z flip214: > initial contents (as we have for arrays), it would be trivial to create a
2017-05-11T09:06:35Z flip214: >   print syntax for hash-tables, too.  so let's attack the basic problem.
2017-05-11T09:06:50Z phoe: flip214: ah yes, hashtables are not portably printable.
2017-05-11T09:06:55Z flip214: two lines above.
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2017-05-11T09:07:05Z phoe: portably readably printable*
2017-05-11T09:07:15Z phoe: yes, sorry - I did not realize it was the same exact post
2017-05-11T09:07:18Z phoe: Too few sleep
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2017-05-11T09:07:54Z phoe: We can circumvent that by ALEXANDRIA:HASH-TABLE-{A,P}LIST and ALEXANDRIA:{A,P}LIST-HASH-TABLE
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2017-05-11T09:13:17Z phoe: but hey, now we have #.(alist-hash-table '((a . 1) (b . 2) (c . 3)) :test #'eq)
2017-05-11T09:13:25Z phoe: which generates a hash table for us
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2017-05-11T09:32:02Z flip214: yeah. still, then we need alexandria:alist-hash-table to be loaded by default.... ie. be a "standard" ;)
2017-05-11T09:32:36Z phoe: load it by ASDF in the project's .asd file and you can do the #. notation
2017-05-11T09:33:07Z phoe: because first ASDF will load alexandria and only then it will compile the project files, so read-time notation is going to find the definitions of alexandria's symbols.
2017-05-11T09:33:47Z phoe: ...and alexandria is close enough to being THE standard library No.2, just after the standard library of ANSI CL
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2017-05-11T09:58:44Z ogamita: uiop
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2017-05-11T10:01:46Z phoe: uiop's one more of the Lisp essentials
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2017-05-11T10:04:17Z jackdaniel foresees slight non-backward-compat api change making gazzilion of systems not possible to load on uiop (because they have depended on, say, 4 year old UIOP version)
2017-05-11T10:05:26Z phoe: 4 years is not much in Lisp
2017-05-11T10:05:39Z phoe: jackdaniel: what exactly do you mean?
2017-05-11T10:05:41Z jackdaniel: indeed, but it's much in ASDF
2017-05-11T10:05:56Z jackdaniel: probably in UIOP too
2017-05-11T10:06:16Z phoe: what is the change you're thinking of?
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2017-05-11T10:07:52Z jackdaniel: dunno, any change. new versions of ASDF actively promote using features, which break loading them on older versions. Some older systems (with system definitions written for older ASDF version), doesn't load on ASDF3 as well
2017-05-11T10:08:16Z jackdaniel: I'm just saying that its not a solid foundament for writing software which ought to work in 20 years from now
2017-05-11T10:08:29Z jackdaniel: (alexandria, on the other hand, is such kind of foundament)
2017-05-11T10:08:47Z jackdaniel: I'll check on later, quite busy atm ;)
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2017-05-11T11:10:44Z fe[nl]ix: jackdaniel: that's partly because ASDF is based on shaky foundations, like pathnames and any interaction with the file-system
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2017-05-11T11:11:11Z fe[nl]ix: and partly because people want to do more and more things with it, so it gets new features
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2017-05-11T11:12:07Z Guest88311: hey. How to I change the dynamic-space-size of sbcl if I run sbcl through roswell? I can change it using sbcl --dynamic-space-size 2048, but I'd like to do it for the ros version... ?
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2017-05-11T11:13:44Z phoe: Guest88311: https://github.com/roswell/roswell/wiki/0.-FAQ
2017-05-11T11:13:54Z phoe: $ ros dynamic-space-size=2000 -- ...
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2017-05-11T11:16:30Z otwieracz: jackdaniel: znowu nie pamiętam – muszę spushować poprawki do cl-neo4j?
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2017-05-11T11:16:47Z otwieracz: jackdaniel: spushowałem je do michałowego repo
2017-05-11T11:17:17Z otwieracz: jackdaniel: oraz https://github.com/otwieracz/cl-curl
2017-05-11T11:17:26Z otwieracz: oh drat.
2017-05-11T11:17:32Z otwieracz: wrong channel. Sorry!
2017-05-11T11:17:51Z Guest88311: dear me, dear me. Have spend an hour in the docs, but didn't look at the faqs... Regardsless, tyvm:)
2017-05-11T11:18:12Z phoe: Guest88311: well, at least you were reading the friendly manual :3
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2017-05-11T11:34:27Z Guest88311: This might be OT, but adjacent problem: the setting (setq inferior-lisp-program "ros dynamic-space-size=2048 -Q run") only takes effect if I manually do eval-buffer in init.el before I launch slime. All other settings in the init-file takes effect on emacs launch... :?
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2017-05-11T11:36:01Z phoe: Guest88311: something else might be overwriting it.
2017-05-11T11:36:27Z phoe: I mean - init.el might set it, THEN something else might set it to a different value - that's why you might not notice it.
2017-05-11T11:36:43Z phoe: But that's just my gut feeling.
2017-05-11T11:36:45Z Guest88311: phoe: makes sense. I'll look around for roswell-specific settings.
2017-05-11T11:36:59Z Guest88311: should be in some folder somewhere.
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2017-05-11T13:01:21Z Guest88311: no luck. suggestions are welcome.
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2017-05-11T13:09:12Z phoe: I have no idea. Maybe #emacs will help.
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2017-05-11T13:11:26Z |3b| doesn't use it, but sees a helper.el in the source repo that sets inferior-lisp-program
2017-05-11T13:11:34Z phoe: oh, correct
2017-05-11T13:11:48Z phoe: Guest88311: check if you are loading any slime helper files
2017-05-11T13:11:58Z phoe: these might overwrite the inferior-lisp programs
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2017-05-11T13:21:19Z Guest88311: .roswell/helö
2017-05-11T13:21:24Z Guest88311: ops.
2017-05-11T13:21:47Z phoe: Guest88311: helö indeed
2017-05-11T13:22:53Z Guest88311: .roswell/helper.el is loaded before. Should be something else then. There is a (setq inferior...etc) in helper.el, but changing it there doesn't help.
2017-05-11T13:23:16Z phoe: I'm puzzled.
2017-05-11T13:24:01Z |3b|: grep -r? :p
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2017-05-11T13:35:31Z Guest88311: so am I... I must do some serious work. I'll post here if I figure it out. TY for your effort, I am wiser thanks to it.
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2017-05-11T13:46:50Z John[Lisbeth]: Is there a way to feed a macro a string?
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2017-05-11T13:47:14Z beach: Yes.  You can feed it anything.
2017-05-11T13:47:49Z John[Lisbeth]: I have a macro called foo and it takes the first argument and uses that as the name of a new function, and I want to put a string in place of that name
2017-05-11T13:47:57Z beach: Example: WHEN is a macro.  (when "hello" (print "foo"))
2017-05-11T13:47:59Z John[Lisbeth]: because the macro is being called programatically with arbitrary names
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2017-05-11T13:48:28Z John[Lisbeth]: defun is a good example of this
2017-05-11T13:48:55Z John[Lisbeth]: (defun "mystring" () (+ 2 2))
2017-05-11T13:49:13Z beach: John[Lisbeth]: Your question has nothing to do with macros.
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2017-05-11T13:49:25Z John[Lisbeth]: good to know
2017-05-11T13:49:48Z beach: What you seem to want is to convert a string to a symbol so that you can find a function named by that symbol.
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2017-05-11T13:50:03Z John[Lisbeth]: probably
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2017-05-11T13:50:30Z beach: You can not feed a string to DEFUN of course, because the Common Lisp HyperSpec says it has to be a function name, and strings are not function names.
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2017-05-11T13:51:19Z John[Lisbeth]: In this case the function name is fetched from user input so it has to be arbitrary
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2017-05-11T13:51:52Z beach: You can convert a string to a symbol by using INTERN.
2017-05-11T13:51:55Z beach: clhs intern
2017-05-11T13:51:56Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_intern.htm
2017-05-11T13:52:24Z John[Lisbeth]: so (defun (intern "mystring") () (+ 2 2)) shoudl give me no problems
2017-05-11T13:52:27Z beach: Rather, you can find or create a symbol having the name of that string.
2017-05-11T13:52:40Z beach: That won't work because of what I said.
2017-05-11T13:53:00Z John[Lisbeth]: The crux of the matter is that rather than using defun I am using a very complex macro that I would hate to rewrite
2017-05-11T13:53:02Z beach: The macro DEFUN does not evaluate its first argument, and that argument has to be a function name.
2017-05-11T13:53:14Z John[Lisbeth]: can I force something to evaluate at runtime?
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2017-05-11T13:53:23Z beach: clhs eval
2017-05-11T13:53:24Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_eval.htm
2017-05-11T13:53:34Z beach: But if you want that, you are very likely doing something wrong.
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2017-05-11T13:54:00Z John[Lisbeth]: rather another programmer did something wrong and I am having to work around him
2017-05-11T13:54:06Z John[Lisbeth]: for stability reaosns
2017-05-11T13:54:18Z _death: you can use a hash table to map strings to functions
2017-05-11T13:54:22Z beach: Are you sure you want to *define* a function with a name given as a string, or just find the function with that name and call it?
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2017-05-11T13:54:50Z John[Lisbeth]: I am sure I want to define. It is a defining function that is lengthy and would be hard to rewrite
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2017-05-11T13:55:25Z beach: That sounds very dangerous, but yes, you can use EVAL for that.
2017-05-11T13:55:49Z John[Lisbeth]: so I can (defun (eval (intern "foo)) () (+ 2 2)) then?
2017-05-11T13:56:08Z beach: No, like I said, DEFUN is a macro that does not evaluate its first argument.
2017-05-11T13:56:29Z John[Lisbeth]: then eval does not *force* evaluation
2017-05-11T13:56:30Z beach: The first argument has to be a function name and you are giving it the list (eval (intern...)) which is not a function name.
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2017-05-11T13:56:43Z John[Lisbeth]: a string can not become a function na me?
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2017-05-11T13:56:50Z beach: *sigh*
2017-05-11T13:57:18Z John[Lisbeth]: perhaps there is an input stream of characters from source and I can insert characters into it for defun to take
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2017-05-11T14:05:13Z John[Lisbeth]: ,seen wasamasa
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2017-05-11T14:07:08Z lmj: Looking for feedback on this possible lparallel feature. I'm not entirely sure it should be added. https://git.io/v9D5v
2017-05-11T14:10:22Z _death: lmj: does it just capture the values and rebinds?
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2017-05-11T14:13:53Z _death: (and the rebinding happens on task init..)
2017-05-11T14:14:26Z lmj: _death: yep, rebinds when the task is submitted, as opposed to rebinding right at the macro
2017-05-11T14:14:56Z lmj: that's why it would need to be part of lparallel itself
2017-05-11T14:15:12Z lmj: otherwise a macro on top could handle it
2017-05-11T14:15:41Z _death: seems a bit difficult to know what the values will be then..
2017-05-11T14:16:24Z _death: (with-task-bindings '(*foo*) (let ((*foo* 'some-other-value)) ... (lambda (x) (+ x *foo*)) ...))
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2017-05-11T14:17:16Z lmj: Well either way it may cause confusion, whether binding at the macro or at task submission. That's what gives me pause.
2017-05-11T14:17:52Z lmj: Letting the user explicitly do this has been the status quo, but recently someone submitted an issue wanting something like this.
2017-05-11T14:17:54Z _death: lmj: yes, maybe it's better to just let the user capture them
2017-05-11T14:18:41Z lmj: The use case is something like hunchentoot where there are tons of dynamic bindings
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2017-05-11T14:21:36Z _death: well, I've not used lparallel in anger so may not be a good judge.. I'd lean towards letting the user handle it
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2017-05-11T15:03:49Z mrSpec: lmj: I had a lot of troubles with special bindings and lparallel. I've been surprised that you just dont bind them automatically, as as in your example… but without with-task-bindings ;-)
2017-05-11T15:04:13Z mrSpec: anyway I see with-task-bindings as improvement.
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2017-05-11T15:05:23Z flip214: lmj: I haven't forgotten!! I'm just busy. Sorry about that.
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2017-05-11T15:09:39Z flip214: and IMO just populating some special with a list of specials and having them relayed by default would be better.
2017-05-11T15:09:52Z flip214: Haven't had time for benchmarks, though.
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2017-05-11T15:11:31Z lmj: mrSpec: well doing it automatically is not possible, and it would be inconsistent with how dynamic bindings work. A thread has its own stack that is not shared with other threads.
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2017-05-11T15:14:23Z White_Flame: one change to the threading model which would work for this could be that when a thread is launched, it inherits the thread-local bindings of the thread which launched it. but that would be a massive change to most implementations
2017-05-11T15:14:39Z White_Flame: I don't believe that would be in violation of the spec
2017-05-11T15:14:58Z White_Flame: but I could easily be wrong about that
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2017-05-11T15:15:57Z jackdaniel: spec doesn't treat threads at all
2017-05-11T15:16:15Z jackdaniel: so implementations are free to do what they want
2017-05-11T15:17:45Z jackdaniel: fe[nl]ix: agreed, there obviously *are* reasons, why it is that way
2017-05-11T15:17:57Z jackdaniel: my point still stands though
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2017-05-11T15:22:05Z lmj: White_Flame: but that won't help if you're using a thread pool, whose purpose is to avoid continually creating/destroying threads
2017-05-11T15:22:25Z White_Flame: right.  there's a ton of messiness involved
2017-05-11T15:22:55Z White_Flame: it basically would boil down to creating a closure, but again it's impossible to know which variables are being closed over
2017-05-11T15:23:11Z White_Flame: and the original problem recurses back on itself
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2017-05-11T15:52:57Z John[Lisbeth]: Is cond the best way to do key/value pairings in lisp for fast lookup?
2017-05-11T15:53:58Z loke: John[Lisbeth]: Usually ECASE
2017-05-11T15:54:07Z jackdaniel: alexandria has switch
2017-05-11T15:54:08Z loke: If they are comparable with EQL
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2017-05-11T15:54:16Z jackdaniel: which allows :test and :key
2017-05-11T15:55:29Z John[Lisbeth]: the thing is I may want to mutate the key value pairs
2017-05-11T15:55:36Z John[Lisbeth]: it has to be mutable
2017-05-11T15:55:55Z John[Lisbeth]: or rather it will be easier if it is mutable
2017-05-11T15:56:02Z John[Lisbeth]: *faster*
2017-05-11T15:56:22Z jackdaniel: if you want to hold 'key/value' for lookup, you have hash-table
2017-05-11T15:56:37Z John[Lisbeth]: what are the main functions for manipulating hash tables?
2017-05-11T15:56:44Z Bike: gethash
2017-05-11T15:56:53Z Bike: that's mostly it
2017-05-11T15:57:00Z jackdaniel: minion: tell John[Lisbeth] about pcl
2017-05-11T15:57:01Z minion: John[Lisbeth]: please look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
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2017-05-11T16:11:27Z aeth: On the one hand, CL is lacking some really basic stuff for hash-tables and arrays. On the other hand, CL has lots of different kinds of macros so you can fix that in < 250 lines. On the third hand, this means everyone's program will look very differently.
2017-05-11T16:11:54Z aeth: s/look very/read very/
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2017-05-11T16:14:33Z Bike: what's it lacking
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2017-05-11T16:20:02Z White_Flame: a consistent iteration protocol, and standardized custom hashing, for some quick examples
2017-05-11T16:20:29Z White_Flame: also weak hash tables
2017-05-11T16:21:01Z _death: I was wondering about the "arrays" part
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2017-05-11T16:50:29Z John[Lisbeth]: How do I get the pointer to a variable?
2017-05-11T16:50:48Z dlowe: for what purpose?
2017-05-11T16:51:16Z John[Lisbeth]: to pass the variable into another variable without copying the value
2017-05-11T16:51:40Z dlowe: for the most part, you don't.
2017-05-11T16:51:44Z White_Flame: that's typically called a "locative"
2017-05-11T16:51:57Z White_Flame: I've just used cons cells for the rare time I've needed one
2017-05-11T16:52:06Z White_Flame: as they tend to be the type with the least overhead
2017-05-11T16:52:35Z dlowe: It's usually much clearer to simply return the value and use setf to modify the variable
2017-05-11T16:52:38Z White_Flame: so pass the cons cell around, and you can mutate the car.  anybody holding a reference to the cell can read the mutated value
2017-05-11T16:52:49Z dlowe: we can return multiple values here, might as well use them.
2017-05-11T16:53:37Z White_Flame: if you want to get fancy, you can implement a true locative that has reader & writer lambdas that can call the right accessors
2017-05-11T16:53:51Z White_Flame: for instance, to have a locative to a value in an array somewhere
2017-05-11T16:54:07Z White_Flame: it all depends on how flexible you want it, and how transparent you want it
2017-05-11T16:54:55Z White_Flame: it basically just boils down to dynamically resolved getters & setters (as opposed to setf which is statically resolved as to what type of access it's doing)
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2017-05-11T17:52:33Z lmj: White_Flame: A one-slot struct is the same size as a cons, on SBCL at least, so might as well (defstruct supervar value)
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2017-05-11T18:01:37Z White_Flame: lmj: construction is often more expensive
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2017-05-11T18:04:47Z hydan: Hello, I have a weird issue with buildapp, ideas welcome. I have a binary compiled with it that launches one to several times, and then refuses to start with something like:
2017-05-11T18:05:00Z hydan: fatal error encountered in SBCL pid 3743(tid 0x7ffff7fed700): can't find core file at /usr/local/lib/sbcl//sbcl.core
2017-05-11T18:05:37Z hydan: I do not understand why is it even looking for a core..
2017-05-11T18:06:09Z hydan: and what would make it work the first (few) times and then fail with this..
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2017-05-11T18:07:38Z phoe: hydan: set the SBCL_HOME env variable
2017-05-11T18:07:47Z phoe: wait
2017-05-11T18:07:49Z phoe: with buildapp?
2017-05-11T18:08:05Z hydan: yep, there is no sbcl on the systems I deploy to
2017-05-11T18:08:07Z phoe: ...it should *not* ask for a core, the core should be bundled in the executable!
2017-05-11T18:08:18Z hydan: exactly, that is why I am asking for ideas here :)
2017-05-11T18:08:39Z foom: does it consistently fail after that?
2017-05-11T18:09:06Z hydan: yep, it runs one or few times, but once this pops up, it persistently fails to launch
2017-05-11T18:10:42Z hydan: I am not ruling out something weird in my environment, I deploy to ~4k nodes and this occurs only on a subset, but I am out of ideas what would cause this even if it is something in my env
2017-05-11T18:10:44Z phoe: wait, runs one or few times?
2017-05-11T18:10:48Z phoe: and then fails?
2017-05-11T18:10:52Z hydan: yes
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2017-05-11T18:14:09Z White_Flame: do your processes run & exit in sequence, or are multiples running simultaneously?
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2017-05-11T18:14:24Z White_Flame: I'm wondering if there's some weirdness with exclusive reading of a file
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2017-05-11T18:16:27Z hydan: White_Flame: there is no core file to begin with though, that is kind of the point of buildapp, no?
2017-05-11T18:16:37Z White_Flame: conceptually, yes
2017-05-11T18:17:03Z White_Flame: however, I wonder if it's just a reporting flaw in sbcl, where the sbcl.core filename or string got baked in at some point in the past
2017-05-11T18:17:16Z _death: hydan: the core is embedded.. you can add a few printfs to see whether search_for_embedded_core() succeeds
2017-05-11T18:17:41Z _death: also, it may be helpful to know the sbcl version you're using
2017-05-11T18:18:05Z White_Flame: and now if it tries to gain exclusive access to your new executable, while trying to load the core, and multiples are running simultaneously... that's the smell I'm looking at
2017-05-11T18:18:35Z White_Flame: but actually, if it stops all future launches, that is screwy
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2017-05-11T18:21:02Z hydan: _death: 1.3.15 right now, I will try again with git head today
2017-05-11T18:22:13Z hydan: White_Flame: I see your point, I will go and double check for that and other daemon weirdness
2017-05-11T18:22:45Z White_Flame: you probably should look int he sbcl code and see what triggers that particular error message
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2017-05-11T18:23:03Z hydan: short of putting printfs in the runtime, any other troubleshooting method you would suggest?
2017-05-11T18:23:05Z White_Flame: and assume the filename is wrong
2017-05-11T18:23:32Z White_Flame: or that it's a general error report for that portion of the bootstrap, and has many entry ways
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2017-05-11T18:26:05Z White_Flame: you should probably also ask in #sbcl, as it will be noticed by the devs as opposed to being lost in the scrollback here
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2017-05-11T20:19:41Z pseudo_sue: hey, I'm looking for the simplest way of writing individual pixels -- from an rgb array, say -- to an X window. I figure there must be some way of doing this, but so far I've only come across higher-level interfaces for drawing graphics. any suggestions?
2017-05-11T20:20:39Z pseudo_sue: specifically, I'm looking for a way to do something like I did here: https://github.com/oblivia-simplex/monsoon, but as a live X display, instead of (or in addition to) just writing a ppm file.
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2017-05-11T20:25:23Z _death: pseudo_sue: here's an old hack that uses lispbuilder-sdl http://paste.lisp.org/display/346396
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2017-05-11T20:29:02Z pseudo_sue: thanks
2017-05-11T20:30:51Z _death: I liked https://www.sfml-dev.org/ , maybe someone will write bindings for it sometime
2017-05-11T20:32:15Z pseudo_sue: i was putzing around the CLX documentation for a while, thinking there must be an easy way of doing bitmap graphics in there somewhere -- and i still feel like there's got to be -- but it seemed kind of ellusive at the time, for a simple task.
2017-05-11T20:33:10Z _death: ah, now I understand what you mean by "live X display"
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2017-05-11T20:34:19Z pseudo_sue: yeah, i mean, i've somehow avoiding doing any sort of graphical programming for so long that i'm not even sure of the vocubulary (which makes problems hard to google!)
2017-05-11T20:34:47Z pseudo_sue: i just have some vague intuition that it should be as easy to display an image in an X11 window as it is to write it to a ppm file
2017-05-11T20:35:25Z _death: do you mean the root window or just create a window and draw to it
2017-05-11T20:35:30Z jasom: pseudo_sue: a ppm file is several orders of magnitude less complicated than X11
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2017-05-11T20:36:16Z _death: you could look at programs that use clx, like stumpwm
2017-05-11T20:36:30Z pseudo_sue: good idea
2017-05-11T20:36:39Z pseudo_sue: this snippet you posted looks useful.
2017-05-11T20:37:01Z jasom: I would tentatively recommend SDL over X if you are doing bitmap graphics.
2017-05-11T20:37:22Z _death: clx also has example programs, methinks
2017-05-11T20:37:23Z pseudo_sue: i guess a general way of posing the question is: can i treat an X11 window as a 2d rgb array (so, 3d, if you count colour)?
2017-05-11T20:37:30Z pseudo_sue: ok, cool. i'll dig around some more.
2017-05-11T20:39:11Z jasom: https://tronche.com/gui/x/xlib/graphics/drawing/XDrawPoint.html if you do want to go the X11 route
2017-05-11T20:39:20Z pseudo_sue: ah, here we go. sdl:draw-pixel looks like the ticket
2017-05-11T20:39:23Z pseudo_sue: thanks!
2017-05-11T20:39:55Z pseudo_sue: this is super-helpful.
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2017-05-11T20:44:08Z jasom: pseudo_sue: X11 is complicated because historically there was no 2d pixel array for a window (indirect rendering with composite changes this); instead you would send drawing commands that would directly be rendered to the screen, and X11 would request that you redraw if more of your window gets revealed.  This makes sense in the days when ram was expensive; you only need a buffer for the contents of the screen,
2017-05-11T20:44:10Z jasom: and not one for each window as well
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2017-05-11T20:46:57Z pseudo_sue: ah
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2017-05-11T20:53:25Z thorondor[m]: _death: How does SFML compare to SDL? apart from being in C++ instead of C?
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2017-05-11T20:54:25Z edgar-rft: pseudo_sue: if you're looking for fast pixel drawing routines #lispgames is full of people who do that all day long :-)
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2017-05-11T20:55:45Z _death: thorondor[m]: just seemed simpler to me at the time.. sdl also changed the interface (sdl2) and it's now more complicated
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2017-05-11T20:57:28Z thorondor[m]: _death:  the advantage of sdl could be that it  is easier to FFI bind, and we already have bindings. I thought that maybe SFML had more features or something.
2017-05-11T20:57:44Z jasom: SFML is a bit higher-level than SDL IIRC
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2017-05-11T21:00:25Z _death: thorondor[m]: sure.. I wouldn't mind an sfml-like system that actually uses sdl
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2017-05-11T21:02:00Z jasom: looks like CSFML bindings would be fairly mechanical; all the functions are of the form sfNoun_Verb()
2017-05-11T21:02:09Z thorondor[m]: nice
2017-05-11T21:02:49Z jasom: and all objects seem to have create/copy/destroy functions for wrapping.
2017-05-11T21:02:50Z _death: I guess sdl simply shifted values once it got used by many applications, incl. games and demand for performance took over
2017-05-11T21:03:10Z thorondor[m]: I'm just playing building a gui toolkit on top of SDL, but I don't know its capabilities yeet. How much OS I'm gonna get, like access to system native menus? popup windows? etc
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2017-05-11T21:03:42Z thorondor[m]: native open file dialog, etc. I would like a library like that, if SDL is not that already
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2017-05-11T21:09:29Z phoe: thorondor[m]: I am successfully using Qtools, which are lisp bindings and toolkit for Qt4
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2017-05-11T21:10:29Z _death: jasom: yes, maybe autowrap will work out of the box
2017-05-11T21:10:41Z thorondor[m]: phoe: aha, but I'm experimenting with something from scratch
2017-05-11T21:10:52Z thorondor[m]: started from this: https://github.com/mbrezu/scenic
2017-05-11T21:11:05Z thorondor[m]: and added CSS stylesheets and renderers to provide custom themes
2017-05-11T21:11:10Z thorondor[m]: want to see where it takes me
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2017-05-11T21:15:34Z _death: there was a time when every self-respective programmer wrote his own UI toolkit :)
2017-05-11T21:15:40Z _death: *respecting
2017-05-11T21:16:03Z thorondor[m]: :) I know it is pointless, but it is soo tempting...
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2017-05-11T21:20:37Z pseudo_sue: it worked! thanks for the help with the pixels, gang
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2017-05-11T21:23:31Z edgar-rft: let's write a new GUI toolkit that re-implements all failures from its predecessors
2017-05-11T21:24:10Z _death: why not write a book called A New Kind of Failure
2017-05-11T21:24:16Z pseudo_sue: lol
2017-05-11T21:24:38Z pjb: edgar-rft: that's not the point.
2017-05-11T21:24:52Z pjb: The point is library-less programming.
2017-05-11T21:24:54Z _death: detailing all the projects where you started from scratch without looking at other people's solutions
2017-05-11T21:25:34Z pjb: Which means that instead of having an multi-gigabyte application using libraries using libraries using libraries, you write only the code of your application and only the supporting code it needs, and end up with a kB-sized application.
2017-05-11T21:25:44Z pjb: Also, a much faster application.
2017-05-11T21:25:50Z pjb: and a much responsive system.
2017-05-11T21:26:09Z pjb: also, now you can run your application on much cheaper hardware, and still get better performance.
2017-05-11T21:26:40Z _death: pjb: and it's much easier to understand for the person who wrote it :)
2017-05-11T21:27:42Z pjb: And you don't have problems such as that famous one-liner javascript library that was depended upon by all javascript programs.
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2017-05-11T21:28:30Z edgar-rft: You haven't understood what I'm talking about. Human evolutiuon is based on failures, so if you want a human-friendly interface, it must be a buggy interface, otherwise people won't be able to handle it.
2017-05-11T21:28:37Z _death: pjb: that issue had multiple stupidities that are indirectly related..
2017-05-11T21:29:03Z pjb: Now, honestly, I've seen such things and they're really magical, but pushed to the extreme, where the guy didn't even use the kernel, but write directly to the metal. It was on NeXT computer, and it was really a great program, but it was written in assembler, so it's long forgotten.
2017-05-11T21:29:40Z pjb: If you don't use system frameworks, you have a higher risk of not being able to run on newer versions of hardware or of the system.
2017-05-11T21:29:46Z _death: pjb: reminds me of Chuck Moore
2017-05-11T21:30:35Z pjb: edgar-rft: this is not proven.
2017-05-11T21:31:03Z _death: pjb: for example check http://www.forth.org/POL.pdf
2017-05-11T21:31:09Z pjb: there are systems that are bug-free at least at the user interface level (perhaps rather strict and limited user interface), but people can use them and like them because they're dependable.
2017-05-11T21:31:28Z edgar-rft: pjb: that's exactly the reason why e.g. MS-Windows is more popular than Mac OS X (or macos or whatever).
2017-05-11T21:31:58Z pjb: Not at all. MS-Windows is more popular because it's bought by bean-counters.
2017-05-11T21:32:05Z pjb: But users all prefer MacOS.
2017-05-11T21:32:22Z _death: windows was popular because dos was popular
2017-05-11T21:32:54Z pjb: And paying users are the first market for MacOS (lawyers, doctors, professionals, etc; because they can choose the system they want without restriction from a corporate bean-counter).
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2017-05-11T21:33:11Z pjb: _death: yes, but for the same reason, with the same demographics.
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2017-05-11T21:35:29Z _death: pjb: don't know about demographics.. I've been using dos when I was 8 or 9 years old (after atari, methinks).. simply because that's what my brother used
2017-05-11T21:35:34Z pjb: Also, this has very old roots; VMS on IBM 360 provided each user a virtual machine such as the user had the impression of having full access to the computer.  Libraries weren't fat bodies of code to be linked by multiple processes, but just subroutines that you copy-and-pasted into your application.  And it ran on the bare hardware without a kernel or system.
2017-05-11T21:36:57Z pjb: _death: then some people bought IBM-PC and used MS-DOS because it looked "professional", when those people had bean-counters around them. But if they had more "artisty" or free-lance professionals around them, they would definitely hate IBM-PC and use Apple or Comodore systems.
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2017-05-11T21:36:59Z _death: from atari basic to gwbasic
2017-05-11T21:38:16Z _death: well, appleII/c64/amiga were always in the background
2017-05-11T21:39:59Z _death: many of those old books that used say c64 basic were interesting to read, but of course the code wasn't portable
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2017-05-11T21:41:23Z edgar-rft: c64 code was only portable on a datasette :-)
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2017-05-11T21:43:03Z _death: heh.. put the casette in, go watch TV and let it load for an hour or two.. then come back to play the game
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2017-05-11T21:45:34Z _death: the other day I came upon http://www.atariarchives.org/
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2017-05-11T21:53:35Z _death: the dos book were more serious indeed.. e.g., Peter Norton on the cover of his books :)
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