2017-05-09T00:00:17Z Bike: well, deeply nested.
2017-05-09T00:00:19Z shrdlu68: s/answer/advice
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2017-05-09T00:00:41Z shrdlu68: krator44: You cando it with macros.
2017-05-09T00:01:06Z Bike: i don't think that's contradictory or anything. everything in moderation and all.
2017-05-09T00:01:17Z shrdlu68: Once the level of indentation gets too deep, you roll a (defmacro get-me-out-of-here (&body body)...
2017-05-09T00:01:19Z Bike: and yeah if you really want to you can use a nest macro.
2017-05-09T00:01:49Z pillton: I don't see how discouraging deeply nested functions differs from discouraging people from writing functions containing more than 100 lines of code.
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2017-05-09T00:04:03Z Bike:  (defmacro nest (&body forms) (cond ((null forms) nil) ((null (rest forms)) (first forms)) (t (append (first forms) `((nest ,@(rest forms)))))))
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2017-05-09T00:04:21Z Bike: (nest (let ((x 4))) (let ((y 7))) (let ((z 39))) (+ x y z))
2017-05-09T00:04:27Z Bike: i've never used it but i know some people do.
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2017-05-09T00:05:26Z pillton: Damn. That requires some mental power.
2017-05-09T00:05:42Z shrdlu68: Well, you know what they say-beauty is in the eyes of the brain on the other side of the optic nerve.
2017-05-09T00:06:27Z Bike: you know what they say, beauty is in area V4 of the visual cortex and can be removed with sufficiently clever knifework
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2017-05-09T00:07:21Z pillton: What? Plasticity doesn't apply to the concept beauty?
2017-05-09T00:09:07Z krator44: i know how not to write excessively long functions
2017-05-09T00:09:07Z krator44: (you subdivide the function into several parts and put those in a flet)
2017-05-09T00:09:08Z krator44: but that makes the other problem worse
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2017-05-09T00:09:37Z pillton: You are obsessing over insignificant matters.
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2017-05-09T00:10:49Z krator44: i uh.. don't think that those are insignificant
2017-05-09T00:11:43Z krator44: in a sufficiently large project basic code organization can turn out to be critical
2017-05-09T00:12:26Z pillton: Yeah sure, and we have provided you with ways of solving your problem.
2017-05-09T00:12:47Z krator44: ..i guess so
2017-05-09T00:12:56Z pillton: Do the rules have to be broken in some cases? Yes. Should they be broken all of the time? No.
2017-05-09T00:13:00Z Bike: mostly i don't have a sense of why you're nesting flets.
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2017-05-09T00:13:41Z shrdlu68: Me neither. That sounds like very diffult to read code.
2017-05-09T00:14:07Z Bike: a function having bindings to other functions that it doesn't need to have has no actual impact, so rewriting flet of flet as labels is fine. i have written flet->let->flet(with closures) once or twice, i guess.
2017-05-09T00:14:44Z shrdlu68: (Running mental commentary)...okay, flex x..blah blah, flet y, blah blah...flet AGAIN?
2017-05-09T00:16:18Z Bike: i think the most complicated thing i've seen is ppcre's closures.lisp
2017-05-09T00:16:33Z Bike: still not totally sure what's going on there. not a good place to hunt compiler bugs
2017-05-09T00:17:18Z pillton: I'm sure Eric Marsden has generated some great ones too.
2017-05-09T00:18:05Z shrdlu68 takes a cautious look, like how we were taught how to "waft" potentially dangerous chemicals in chem lab.
2017-05-09T00:18:14Z krator44: Bike: well.. yea it's true that additional bindings don't really have an impact but at least in principle since.. functions can have their own functions.. the number of levels that this can be nested is unlimited
2017-05-09T00:18:42Z Bike: yeah, and you can write indefinitely long functions do. doesn't mean you ought to, is all.
2017-05-09T00:18:45Z Bike: too*
2017-05-09T00:19:00Z Bike: or that it often comes up in practical programming.
2017-05-09T00:19:45Z krator44: yes but ideally there would be a way to write code that does that while keeping the functions both narrow and short
2017-05-09T00:20:14Z Bike: why? that's like saying ideally there would be a way to write indefinitely long functions that's still readable
2017-05-09T00:20:20Z Bike: that are*
2017-05-09T00:20:44Z krator44: there is a way to write indefinitely long functions - you break them up into parts
2017-05-09T00:21:53Z Bike: i gotta tell you, usually when i go through that process i just give the part-functions top level definitions, so that i can test them individually anyway
2017-05-09T00:21:53Z krator44: at least there is a way to write code that does the same thing even if it's in another way
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2017-05-09T00:25:24Z krator44: Bike: yea but if i did that i would inevitably arrive at a function called "process-data" or "generate-map" that will clash between like.. ai, graphics, and dungeon generator
2017-05-09T00:26:36Z Bike: a name like process-data is never a good idea imo :p
2017-05-09T00:26:44Z Bike: those three things are complicated enough that i'd have them in separate packages
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2017-05-09T00:31:54Z krator44: i guess thats whats gonna happen.. or else i just prefix them
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2017-05-09T00:45:56Z _death: krator44: I suggest to read http://norvig.com/luv-slides.ps
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2017-05-09T02:34:52Z krator44: _death: thanks
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2017-05-09T03:02:04Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-05-09T03:11:55Z drmeister: beach: You mentioned a lock on each generic-function this morning.     I don't need a read lock on the generic function dispatcher do I?   Reading a pointer is atomic - right?
2017-05-09T03:12:21Z beach: Yes, it either reads the old value or the new value.
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2017-05-09T03:12:59Z drmeister: I mean - reading the dispatcher address from the generic function and then executing it - the dispatcher stays alive as long as its being executed because the IP points to it.
2017-05-09T03:13:32Z beach: That's up to your garbage collector.  But it should, yes.
2017-05-09T03:14:02Z drmeister: It will be.
2017-05-09T03:14:07Z drmeister: (some day)
2017-05-09T03:14:48Z drmeister: Right now all code is immortal.
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2017-05-09T10:39:35Z flip214: hmmm, found fare on comp.lang.lisp in 1999...
2017-05-09T10:41:42Z loke`: flip214: If you search for my name you'll find posts from me in the 80's, I think...
2017-05-09T10:41:55Z flip214: possibly.
2017-05-09T10:42:10Z flip214: still reading through the naggum archives, and this just caught my eye.
2017-05-09T10:42:51Z flip214: yeah, I'm still a grasshopper around here, lisping since ~2007 or so....  ;P
2017-05-09T10:43:33Z loke`: I found a post from 1996
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2017-05-09T10:56:23Z phoe: and I'm still a noob, started in 2015
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2017-05-09T11:06:54Z Xach: jackdaniel: did you break gsharp?
2017-05-09T11:07:18Z Xach: >> The function CLIM-INTERNALS::PART-WAY is undefined.
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2017-05-09T11:07:51Z loke`: Xach: Did anyone ask you to update the repository URL for closure-html?
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2017-05-09T11:09:10Z Xach: loke`: I don't think so.
2017-05-09T11:10:41Z loke`: Xach: I became maintainer for it, and they gave me access to the "new" official repository. Is this the one you use in QL?
2017-05-09T11:10:41Z loke`: https://github.com/bluelisp/closure-html
2017-05-09T11:11:25Z Xach: loke`: no, i use something from repo.or.cz
2017-05-09T11:12:16Z phoe: sounds like a time for an update
2017-05-09T11:12:17Z loke`: Xach: OK. What does it take to change it?
2017-05-09T11:12:36Z Xach: loke`: a new quicklisp-projects issue
2017-05-09T11:12:49Z Xach: loke`: Who was the old maintainer?
2017-05-09T11:13:19Z loke`: David Lichtblau
2017-05-09T11:13:44Z Xach: and he gave you access to the repo.or.cz repo?
2017-05-09T11:14:01Z loke`: No. He moved it to the link I gave you
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2017-05-09T11:31:14Z beach: Xach: It is likely that Gsharp broke from the latest McCLIM updates.  You can remove Gsharp from Quicklisp.  I will write a replacement at some point.
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2017-05-09T11:39:05Z jackdaniel: Xach: Gsharp used internal (not exported) interfaces of McCLIM, which were rewritten into proper extension by slyrus (namely bezier curves)
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2017-05-09T11:39:25Z phoe: so it's time to patch gsharp.
2017-05-09T11:39:25Z jackdaniel: but yeah, we have anticipated this breakage
2017-05-09T11:39:40Z beach: phoe: No, it's time to write something better.
2017-05-09T11:40:34Z phoe: beach: gasp.
2017-05-09T11:40:37Z phoe: I see.
2017-05-09T11:40:50Z beach: It already has a name: Clovetree.
2017-05-09T11:41:16Z beach: In the great tradition of LilyPond, Rosegarden, etc.
2017-05-09T11:41:21Z phoe: <3
2017-05-09T11:41:34Z ogamita: beach: what's wrong with Gsharp? McClim or Gsharp it self?
2017-05-09T11:41:56Z beach: Nothing wrong with Gsharp, but I have new ideas about what I want to do.
2017-05-09T11:42:21Z ogamita: ok
2017-05-09T11:42:50Z beach: For one thing, I think that the new gestures available on a touch screen could be very useful.
2017-05-09T11:43:19Z ogamita: This can easily be integrated in existing applications.
2017-05-09T11:43:33Z beach: It could.
2017-05-09T11:43:52Z jackdaniel: I think that what beach has in mind is providing proper integration with gestures in mcclim, am I right?
2017-05-09T11:43:54Z ogamita: But even without considering new gestures, just assuming a stylet instead of a mouse can lead to much better user interface for partition writing and editing.
2017-05-09T11:43:54Z beach: I also want to get rid of the concept of "segment" that I use in Gsharp.  It is confusing.
2017-05-09T11:44:33Z beach: And, I never could figure out how to create completely scrollable score.  Now I know how to do that by writing a custom output history for McCLIM.
2017-05-09T11:45:16Z beach: I also complicated my life in Gsharp because I was assuming that only the X11 core protocol was available, so no compositing and no anti-aliasing.  That makes the glyphs much trickier to position.
2017-05-09T11:45:18Z jackdaniel: I'll read the logs when I'm back o/
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2017-05-09T11:45:30Z beach: ogamita: Good point.
2017-05-09T11:45:32Z ogamita: So far I've not found a partition editor on iPad that took into account the stylets correctly.
2017-05-09T11:45:56Z p_l: beach: btw, have you seen Opusmodus?
2017-05-09T11:46:01Z beach: jackdaniel: I have not gotten that fare in my reflections.
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2017-05-09T11:46:13Z beach: p_l: Rings a bell.  Can't remember.
2017-05-09T11:46:23Z jackdaniel: OK, probably I have projected my own thoughts into your sentence
2017-05-09T11:46:30Z beach: p_l: Are you saying I might not have to write Clovetree after all?
2017-05-09T11:46:33Z p_l: beach: https://opusmodus.com/
2017-05-09T11:46:42Z p_l: lisp-based tool for composing music
2017-05-09T11:46:51Z jackdaniel: I've got touchscreen in my laptop lately and I was thinking about better gesture integration (like swipe, pinch etc)
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2017-05-09T11:48:40Z beach: p_l: Just to make it clear, Gsharp is not a tool for composing music.  It's a tool for what is known as "music engraving".
2017-05-09T11:49:01Z beach: Oh, I see, Opusmodus is commercial software.
2017-05-09T11:49:22Z p_l: beach: Mhm. Still, when it comes to writing the score (engraving?) it's what my mind goes to
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2017-05-09T11:49:59Z beach: p_l: It so happens that composers have mostly no clue about music engraving.
2017-05-09T11:50:05Z p_l: hah
2017-05-09T11:50:17Z beach: p_l: And whenever I say that to them, they look very indignant.
2017-05-09T11:50:29Z p_l: beach: I imagine :)
2017-05-09T11:50:46Z beach: p_l: Then, when I cite a few rules about (say) placement of alterations, they admit they have never heard of those rules.
2017-05-09T11:51:02Z beach: It's like the difference between a novelist and a typesetter.
2017-05-09T11:51:09Z beach: Two different professions.
2017-05-09T11:53:24Z beach: p_l: In my typical presentation, I also show professionally engraved scores, and ask them to find the errors.  And they can't.
2017-05-09T11:53:51Z beach: If they had known about the rules of music engraving, those mistakes would have stood out like a sore thumb.
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2017-05-09T11:56:07Z beach: jackdaniel: Yes, I think it would be very interesting to take such gestures into account.
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2017-05-09T12:02:03Z beach: Oh, and one more reason to do it better.  When I started with Gsharp, there was only one, relatively thin, book that explained the rules of music engraving, and that was this one by Ted Ross: https://www.amazon.com/Art-Music-Engraving-Processing/dp/B0006D07KY
2017-05-09T12:02:05Z beach: Now, there is a much more complete book, namely this one: https://www.amazon.com/Behind-Bars-Definitive-Guide-Notation/dp/0571514561/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_14_img_0?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=18C599CHF4ZS4NYPTEJD
2017-05-09T12:05:12Z ogamita: For classical music engraving…
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2017-05-09T12:06:12Z beach: Right.  I am not willing to take on the current situation, where it seems that every composer, no, scratch that, every PIECE, must invent its own notation, or it is frowned upon by contemporary composing colleagues.
2017-05-09T12:07:04Z ogamita: Well partitions don't render the whole midi streams with hundred of CC…
2017-05-09T12:07:47Z beach: ogamita: "score" is the English translation of the French word "partition".
2017-05-09T12:07:53Z ogamita: right.
2017-05-09T12:08:00Z beach: ... just saying so that you will be understood here.
2017-05-09T12:08:18Z ogamita: Page-in for that vocabuliary is planned for next week ;-)
2017-05-09T12:08:27Z ogamita: s/ia/a/
2017-05-09T12:08:30Z beach: Heh!  What's up next week?
2017-05-09T12:08:43Z ogamita: I switch back working 100% on Patchwork.
2017-05-09T12:08:59Z beach: Aha!  Congratulations!  I assume it is paid work, yes?
2017-05-09T12:09:03Z ogamita: Yes.
2017-05-09T12:09:07Z beach: Excellent!
2017-05-09T12:10:13Z beach: So my thinking is that all over the world, schools, choirs, bands, orchestras etc are still playing a lot of classical music, and they either make illegal copies of the scores, or they end up paying an arm and a leg for them.
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2017-05-09T12:11:01Z beach: But since the music itself is typically in the public domain, it suffices to substitute a new score that was not derived from one that is still under valid copyright.
2017-05-09T12:12:00Z beach: This idea is probably bad for "the economy" because "the economy" relies on people wasting money on stuff that is not worth the cost.
2017-05-09T12:12:09Z beach: But I think it would be good for music.
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2017-05-09T12:13:22Z beach: Sorry, I'll quit the off-topic ranting now.
2017-05-09T12:13:37Z phoe: beach: #lispcafe, we could continue there
2017-05-09T12:14:11Z beach: I think I have said what I wanted to say.  And I don't think I have time for another IRC channel.
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2017-05-09T12:14:28Z phoe: Okay.
2017-05-09T12:14:41Z beach: I'll make an exception if there are people who insist on knowing more about these ideas, but I seriously doubt that is the case.
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2017-05-09T12:16:05Z ogamita: They're well known…
2017-05-09T12:16:13Z beach: Indeed.
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2017-05-09T12:31:29Z professore: ogamita: hi!
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2017-05-09T12:43:34Z ogamita: Hi!
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2017-05-09T12:47:07Z hjudt: i have a question about html and ids: i create various svg graphics, putting them in a table etc. these (and some of their elements) all have an id attribute. how does one usually generate ids for that (for html ids in general)?
2017-05-09T12:48:15Z hjudt: i mean, i can imagine putting together some name and use a number as prefix, such as row-1, row-2 etc.? but is that good practice?
2017-05-09T12:48:36Z hjudt: or are there better ways?
2017-05-09T12:50:23Z z0d: hjudt: wrong channel?
2017-05-09T12:51:46Z ogamita: If you generate them from lisp, you can use (princ  (gensym))
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2017-05-09T12:51:57Z z0d: I guess you can just go with row1-1, row-2, etc
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2017-05-09T12:55:06Z hjudt: ogamita: will these comply with the spec?
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2017-05-09T12:55:58Z hjudt: z0d: i guess it would do, except when i have multiple tables, and each table has rows.
2017-05-09T12:56:38Z hjudt: so hash functions (like gensym?) will probably be a safer solution.
2017-05-09T12:57:14Z hjudt: z0d: you are right, i should actually post this in another channel, but i wonder which one.
2017-05-09T12:57:32Z z0d: hjudt: well, you can have a counter
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2017-05-09T12:58:55Z z0d: or you can stringify (gensym)
2017-05-09T12:59:54Z ogamita: hjudt: by default gensym's prefix is "G". So it should match the syntax for identifiers.
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2017-05-09T13:00:56Z hjudt: ok thanks. i will try gensym strings. that will give a decent lispy touch ;-)
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2017-05-09T13:01:07Z ogamita: hjudt: now, you could prefer to write your own id generator function using your own counter, instead of eating into *gensym-counter* ; but I've never seen an image where *gensym-counter* went into bignums, so is it worth the work?
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2017-05-09T13:03:23Z hjudt: ogamita: i guess that bignum limitation is more theoretical than practical. anyway, i merely wondered how other people solve this as it doesn't seem to be a rare issue.
2017-05-09T13:04:20Z parjanya: beach: I wouldn’t mind if you kept on off-topic, as a harpsichordist it’s all very interesting, at least to me :) thanks for the book reference, btw
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2017-05-09T13:04:57Z beach: parjanya: Sure.  It is not easy to read.  Very detailed.
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2017-05-09T13:08:32Z ogamita: hjudt: as I said, you have basically two options: write your own function to generate unique IDs as you wish, or use gensym. Since your own function will generate directly strings as used externally, they may generate less garbage than gensym which has to create a new symbol.  But since this symbol should be collected early, with most modern implementation it won't cost much.
2017-05-09T13:09:14Z ogamita: hjudt: so basically you're trading less time than what we've already spent here, writing your id generation function vs. infinitesimal time spent by gensym and the garbage collector…
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2017-05-09T13:13:10Z hjudt: ogamita: thanks. i will reconsider it, adapting to the requirements that may still arise.
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2017-05-09T13:18:16Z ogamita: hjudt: actually, do: (defun generate-my-specific-id () (gensym "mine"))  so that if you need to change the implemention later, it's easy.
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2017-05-09T13:24:29Z hjudt: already done this way. when it enters the bignum territory, i will report back ;-)
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2017-05-09T13:27:16Z didi: Is there any difference between quoting or not the empty list? i.e. () vs '()
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2017-05-09T13:28:16Z z0d: yes
2017-05-09T13:28:21Z didi: What is it?
2017-05-09T13:28:24Z z0d: the former is a function call
2017-05-09T13:28:48Z didi: Oh, really? Interesting.
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2017-05-09T13:29:06Z didi: What is the function been called?
2017-05-09T13:30:14Z z0d: nevermind. I'm talking non-sense
2017-05-09T13:30:22Z didi: Oh, OK. :-)
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2017-05-09T13:33:10Z lieven: both nil, () and '() evaluate to the same object
2017-05-09T13:33:12Z ogamita: didi: well, no. () in code is the symbol CL:NIL which when evaluated returns as value the symbol CL:NIL.
2017-05-09T13:33:17Z ogamita: (list () () ()) #| --> (nil nil nil) |#
2017-05-09T13:33:31Z lieven: some programmers use the three in different context to signal intent
2017-05-09T13:33:43Z didi: Thank you.
2017-05-09T13:34:01Z ogamita: and 'nil to signal  the symbol CL:NIL, not the false boolean literal NIL. ;-)
2017-05-09T13:34:14Z didi: Makes sense.
2017-05-09T13:34:20Z shka: didi: (list) vs '()?
2017-05-09T13:34:25Z didi: shka: '()
2017-05-09T13:34:45Z ogamita: no difference, both return CL:NIL.
2017-05-09T13:35:08Z didi: lieven: Where should I use () and where should I use '()?
2017-05-09T13:35:22Z ogamita: Perhaps you would use (list) in a context where you will be building and returning a fresh list (mutable), while you'd use '() in a context where you'd return a literal list.
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2017-05-09T13:35:52Z lieven: '() denotes the empty list
2017-05-09T13:36:44Z ogamita: (defun immutable-arguments (x) (if (zero x) '() '("-a" "-e")))  vs.   (defun make-point (x) (if (zerop x) (list x (list :color 'red))  (list x (list))))
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2017-05-09T13:36:53Z ogamita: lieven: not denotes, but returns.
2017-05-09T13:37:02Z shka: yeah
2017-05-09T13:37:04Z ogamita: () (= CL:NIL) denotes the empty list.
2017-05-09T13:37:41Z ogamita: didi: use () in parts of code that are not evaluated, like argument lists, let bindings, etc.
2017-05-09T13:37:50Z ogamita: (defun foo () #| <- not NIL!
2017-05-09T13:37:57Z didi: Ah, cool.
2017-05-09T13:38:04Z didi: lieven, ogamita: Thank you.
2017-05-09T13:38:12Z ogamita: |# (let () #| <- not NIL! |# (do-something)))
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2017-05-09T13:39:18Z _death: you can view () and '() from different perspective.. they both evaluate to the same thing under normal circumstances.. the first is the empty list, also the symbol NIL, and the second is a shorthand for (quote ()) which is a list of two symbols.. when read, the first tells the reader to dispatch on the open-paren character, and the second tells the reader to dispatch on the quote character.. etc.
2017-05-09T13:40:13Z didi: _death: True.
2017-05-09T13:41:06Z _death: to a programmer, the first might signal an empty list in a non-evaluational context, and the latter an empty list in an evaluational context
2017-05-09T13:43:17Z didi: Thank you.
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2017-05-09T13:58:04Z pipping: phoe: I see you're dealing with pathnames and external processes on windows
2017-05-09T13:58:40Z pipping: phoe: I hope you're not doing this voluntarily; a lot of pain lies down that road as far as i can tell.
2017-05-09T13:59:08Z phoe: pipping: a stony and thorny road is before me
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2017-05-09T14:00:28Z phoe: pipping: I am doing this voluntarily, but well, it looks like my solutions work... for now
2017-05-09T14:00:31Z pipping: phoe: uiop could certainly be improved considerably in that direction. the answer to "does anyone needs this to work on windows?" was always "yes" but the follow-up "... and is willing to spend time on it" always went unanswered
2017-05-09T14:00:40Z phoe: but Windows is certainly quirky as hell
2017-05-09T14:01:41Z pipping: yes. and you can get different behaviour depending on whether you run inside cygwin or not
2017-05-09T14:02:20Z phoe: pipping: I'm not using cygwin, thank goodness.
2017-05-09T14:02:30Z phoe: and actually test on other people's machines, which are various Windows versions.
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2017-05-09T14:03:41Z phoe: an issue is, UIOP:NATIVE-NAMESTRING sometimes returns paths with slashes instead of backslashes - I've experienced CCL do it
2017-05-09T14:03:56Z phoe: luckily my FFI libraries seem not to mind it.
2017-05-09T14:04:12Z pipping: if you're on sbcl, you'll want to make sure you're on a recent version. e.g. the patch from https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/1503496 was only merged on 2016-12-31
2017-05-09T14:04:22Z phoe: I'm on 1.3.17
2017-05-09T14:04:24Z Grue`: I once wrote a directory syncer for Windows for my own purposes, it wasn't that bad. First I wrote it in CLISP, then rewrote in SBCL for Unicode support
2017-05-09T14:04:33Z phoe: ...either that, or the git master
2017-05-09T14:04:39Z phoe: but nonetheless - fresh.
2017-05-09T14:05:16Z Grue`: I found a bug in SBCL in the process, which I monkeypatched around https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/1267540
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2017-05-09T14:05:29Z Grue`: (the bug itself is still not fixed)
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2017-05-09T14:06:21Z Grue`: and I still use it to sync my Windows PC data to external drive https://github.com/tshatrov/cl-sync/blob/master/sync-sbcl.lisp
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2017-05-09T14:06:46Z phoe: Grue`: eww
2017-05-09T14:06:53Z phoe: I wonder if I can fix it tomorrow
2017-05-09T14:06:57Z phoe: when I have a free while
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2017-05-09T14:07:19Z foom: Is _stat the /only/ ascii file api sbcl uses?
2017-05-09T14:07:27Z pipping: Grue`: I've yet to find out what actions  and attributes make sbcl bug reports more or less likely to be paid attention.
2017-05-09T14:07:31Z Grue`: probably not
2017-05-09T14:08:14Z pipping: heh: (defun ewstat (name)
2017-05-09T14:09:21Z pipping: phoe: when you say "sometimes" (in "UIOP:NATIVE-NAMESTRING sometimes returns paths with slashes instead of backslashes"), does that follow any pattern?
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2017-05-09T14:12:56Z ogamita: pipping: I would guess the pattern is whether you'r on MS-Windows or on a normal OS.
2017-05-09T14:13:34Z phoe: pipping: depends on the implementation.
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2017-05-09T14:14:10Z pipping: phoe: oh
2017-05-09T14:14:24Z phoe: SBCL returns backslashes, CCL slashes.
2017-05-09T14:14:28Z phoe: I need to check other impls.
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2017-05-09T14:15:50Z pipping: Well. I'm not sure if that could be made consistent then. The respective implementations might need it that way.
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2017-05-09T14:16:44Z ogamita: The way to make it consistent is to use logical pathnames.
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2017-05-09T14:17:20Z ogamita: and to consider pathnames obtained from the system (physical pathnames) as opaque objects.
2017-05-09T14:17:41Z phoe: ogamita: how do I make a cross-implementation cross-platform logical pathname that corresponds to a folder ".foo" placed in the user's home directory?
2017-05-09T14:18:30Z ogamita: phoe: you can use whatever logical pathname you like.  Then add a translation for it.
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2017-05-09T14:20:04Z ogamita: (setf (logical-pathname-translations "APP") '(("FOO;" (merge-pathnames #+ccl #P".foo/" #-ccl (something-else)  (user-homedir-pathname)))))
2017-05-09T14:21:12Z phoe: ogamita: noted. I will try using these. thanks.
2017-05-09T14:21:22Z ogamita: Or more probably, you put your logical pathname translations in an external configuration file, depending on the implementation and use (load-logical-pathname-translations)
2017-05-09T14:22:19Z ogamita: Now if you use FFI, or other external API, you may have to deal with them as POSIX paths (string), not as CL pathnames (structured data).
2017-05-09T14:22:35Z shrdlu68: Would (make-pathname :directory '(:absolute (get-env "$HOME") ".foo")) do?
2017-05-09T14:22:36Z ogamita: namestring <- being a hint you need to work with strings.
2017-05-09T14:23:02Z phoe: ogamita: yes, I do.
2017-05-09T14:23:09Z ogamita: shrdlu68: (getenv "HOME") but no. I'd trust (user-homedir-pathname) to give the right path more than (getenv "HOME").
2017-05-09T14:23:27Z ogamita: Also (getenv "HOME") should be split, :directory takes a list of path components prefixed by :absolute or :relative.
2017-05-09T14:23:47Z ogamita: phoe: so forget about CL pathnames…
2017-05-09T14:23:58Z phoe: ogamita: ...
2017-05-09T14:24:00Z phoe: but you just told me
2017-05-09T14:24:02Z ogamita: also, use implementation dependent functions or FFI to scan directories, etc.
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2017-05-09T14:24:07Z shrdlu68: ogamita: Didn't know about #'user-homedir-pathname. Neat!
2017-05-09T14:24:09Z phoe: uh
2017-05-09T14:24:13Z phoe: ooh
2017-05-09T14:24:17Z phoe: clhs user-homedir-pathname
2017-05-09T14:24:17Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_user_h.htm
2017-05-09T14:24:34Z ogamita: phoe: basically, you have two worlds, and it's difficult to mix them; pathname inside lisp, path inside posix.
2017-05-09T14:24:59Z phoe: yes, I see.
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2017-05-09T18:04:48Z Lambda_: Hey
2017-05-09T18:05:47Z pjb: yeh!
2017-05-09T18:07:11Z phoe: Hey hey
2017-05-09T18:07:43Z Lambda_: Is this channel about the LISP programming language?
2017-05-09T18:07:52Z dlowe: Common Lisp, yes.
2017-05-09T18:08:02Z dlowe: The other lisp family languages have their own channels.
2017-05-09T18:08:12Z dlowe: There's also ##lisp, for general lisp discussion
2017-05-09T18:08:54Z Lambda_: I've been meaning to learn LISP for awhile now any help on where to start?
2017-05-09T18:08:58Z dlowe: however, lisps have so little in common that ##lisp is a low-traffic channel.
2017-05-09T18:09:09Z ebrasca: Lambda_: cliki
2017-05-09T18:09:13Z dlowe: well, you can start by not making it all caps :D
2017-05-09T18:09:24Z dlowe: minion: tell Lambda_ about pcl
2017-05-09T18:09:24Z minion: Lambda_: direct your attention towards pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2017-05-09T18:10:00Z Lambda_: Sorry it's a fource of habbit
2017-05-09T18:10:13Z dlowe: yeah, cliki.net probably has a lot of good beginner info.
2017-05-09T18:10:25Z pjb: Lambda_: Well, they still have some in common: Have a look at (intersection common-lisp emacs-lisp scheme) http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/intersection-r5rs-common-lisp-emacs-lisp/
2017-05-09T18:11:53Z Lambda_: I shall book mark them for when I get home from work
2017-05-09T18:12:27Z dlowe: pjb: (if '() ...) haha very nice
2017-05-09T18:13:27Z Lambda_: Does anyone in here run the guix os?
2017-05-09T18:14:03Z phoe: Lambda_: #guix might have a lot of such people
2017-05-09T18:14:28Z phoe is plain old debian sid
2017-05-09T18:14:46Z Lambda_: I'm still getting used to irc stuff
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2017-05-09T18:15:41Z Lambda_: I never touched irc until a few days ago
2017-05-09T18:15:47Z phoe: Lambda_: well, there's a lot of channels, and you go "/join #foo" if you want to talk about foo
2017-05-09T18:15:56Z phoe: if you're lucky, there's a channel by that name
2017-05-09T18:16:17Z phoe: and if you don't want to depend on luck (like I do), search for "foo freenode"
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2017-05-09T18:16:24Z phoe: and a channel name should pop up.
2017-05-09T18:16:31Z pjb: Lambda_: check http://cliki.net/IRC for CL related channels.
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2017-05-09T18:17:57Z Lambda_: I shall check it out now
2017-05-09T18:19:05Z Lambda_: I shall be back later, I need to get back to work
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2017-05-09T21:14:05Z ben_vulpes: does anyone have any experience composing s-sql forms together?
2017-05-09T21:15:14Z ben_vulpes: i'm having trouble returning a list shaped like `(:insert-into 'foo_table :set 'thing ,var) into a postmodern query
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2017-05-09T21:22:35Z ben_vulpes: i suppose that i was looking for the :raw sql-op...
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2017-05-09T21:23:25Z flip214: phoe: "sid" isn't that old, is it? "oldstable" would be, right. but "sid"?
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2017-05-09T21:25:23Z phoe: flip214: sid is bleeding edge/unstable.
2017-05-09T21:25:31Z phoe: oh
2017-05-09T21:25:33Z phoe: ooh
2017-05-09T21:25:34Z phoe: I got it
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2017-05-09T21:47:30Z trocado: This: (loop repeat 10 do (progn (format t ".") (sleep 1))) works as expected in the slime repl but in sbcl "standalone" waits 10 seconds and only then prints the 10 dots all at once. Why?
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2017-05-09T21:53:42Z Bike: output buffering
2017-05-09T21:54:04Z Bike: clhs finish-output
2017-05-09T21:54:04Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_finish.htm
2017-05-09T21:54:08Z Bike: throw a call to that in there somewhere
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2017-05-09T21:56:07Z phoe: trocado: after the format, to be precise
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2017-05-09T21:57:39Z trocado: great, thank you guys!
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2017-05-09T22:28:21Z flip214: phoe: I'm running (mostly) sid, too. But a few packages (eg. SBCL) are pinned to experimental ;)
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