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2017-05-08T05:17:02Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-05-08T05:37:22Z splittist: morning beach!
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2017-05-08T06:24:39Z shaftoe: hi
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2017-05-08T06:33:19Z beach: Hello shaftoe.
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2017-05-08T07:31:59Z holycow: has everyone seen this: https://github.com/vygr/ChrysaLisp
2017-05-08T07:32:08Z holycow: first post on lisp.reddit.com
2017-05-08T07:32:43Z beach: Wow.
2017-05-08T07:32:48Z holycow: i know
2017-05-08T07:32:55Z holycow: lisp programmers
2017-05-08T07:33:00Z holycow: i don't even know where to begin
2017-05-08T07:37:44Z shka: that is quite interesting
2017-05-08T07:37:57Z shka: i wonder… what lisp does it run
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2017-05-08T07:40:34Z p_l: "common lisp like"
2017-05-08T07:42:10Z shka: not sure about legality here
2017-05-08T07:42:40Z shka: namely, there is some code named taos virtual processor
2017-05-08T07:42:49Z holycow: what is that?
2017-05-08T07:42:51Z shka: and author is ex-TAOS developer
2017-05-08T07:43:19Z shka: holycow: TAOS was sort of operating system built on top of efficient virtual machine
2017-05-08T07:43:32Z holycow: aha
2017-05-08T07:43:42Z holycow: is it this: http://www.uruk.org/emu/Taos.html
2017-05-08T07:43:46Z shka: yup
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2017-05-08T07:44:49Z holycow: that sounds like how an os "should" be built
2017-05-08T07:44:50Z holycow: neato
2017-05-08T07:45:09Z holycow: it also sounds like the beginning of skynet
2017-05-08T07:46:48Z shka: ok, this project looks rather interesting
2017-05-08T07:47:01Z shka: especially since it targets parallel machines
2017-05-08T07:47:05Z shka: (i like that)
2017-05-08T07:47:08Z holycow: man, taos was long ago
2017-05-08T07:47:13Z holycow: yet so far ahead of its time
2017-05-08T07:48:43Z shka: "We had a JVM for it, which translated Java bytecodes into VP2, which meant we got, pretty much for free, a Java JIT to native machine code which didn't require any additional porting"
2017-05-08T07:48:48Z shka: that was neat
2017-05-08T07:49:11Z holycow: shka: just reading that
2017-05-08T07:49:28Z shka: funny
2017-05-08T07:49:28Z holycow: man, i have never heard of this before.  thanks for the heads up.
2017-05-08T07:49:57Z shka: meanwhile, at google, android developers… xD
2017-05-08T07:50:13Z holycow: heh
2017-05-08T07:50:17Z shka: i wonder
2017-05-08T07:50:42Z shka: could it be possible to put LLVM on this system
2017-05-08T07:50:49Z shka: so we could for instance run clasp
2017-05-08T07:50:56Z shka: or perhaps it is already llvm
2017-05-08T07:52:49Z holycow: jesus, these taos people are on another level
2017-05-08T07:54:41Z holycow: they were working with motorola on a full screen touchphone smartphone
2017-05-08T07:54:46Z holycow: running on an 11mhz arm
2017-05-08T07:54:47Z holycow: wtf
2017-05-08T07:56:25Z holycow: they had a full ogl gui prototyped
2017-05-08T07:56:31Z holycow: with alpha blending
2017-05-08T07:56:35Z holycow: in the 90's
2017-05-08T07:56:36Z holycow: omg
2017-05-08T07:57:55Z shka: yeah, yeah
2017-05-08T07:58:09Z shka: anyway, it is basicly JIT
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2017-05-08T08:18:21Z holycow: oh, i did not realize i googled the guys page
2017-05-08T08:18:22Z holycow: heh
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2017-05-08T08:37:00Z phoe: wow
2017-05-08T08:37:13Z phoe: (curry #'apply #'foo) is a pretty damn powerful thing
2017-05-08T08:46:35Z shka: phoe: how is that different from (curry #'foo) ?
2017-05-08T08:47:09Z phoe: shka: when you have your args in a list.
2017-05-08T08:47:31Z shka: ah, ok, makes sense
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2017-05-08T08:47:51Z phoe: to be precise, (mapcar (curry #'apply #'foo) list-of-lists-of-args)
2017-05-08T08:48:06Z shka: yes
2017-05-08T08:48:26Z shka: neat trick, thanks
2017-05-08T08:49:14Z phoe: the more I program in Lisp, the more I consider Alexandria to be an integral part of the full Lisp experience™
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2017-05-08T08:50:28Z shka: yes, alexandria is great
2017-05-08T08:51:43Z shka: i even went one step further and wrote macro bind-lambda to write code like (bind-lambda #'foo a b _ _ c d)
2017-05-08T08:52:13Z shka: if you need to use it, you are doing it wrong xD
2017-05-08T08:54:51Z TeMPOraL: shka: you, writing a presumably code-walking macro?
2017-05-08T08:54:58Z shka: TeMPOraL: no
2017-05-08T08:55:15Z TeMPOraL: I thought you hated those macros :P
2017-05-08T08:55:25Z shka: TeMPOraL: i do, but this is not code-walker
2017-05-08T08:55:49Z shka: well, at least not recursive
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2017-05-08T08:56:31Z shka: all it really does is to gather _, generate let with everything else and enclose lambda over it
2017-05-08T08:58:16Z shka: so in the end you are getting (let ((gensym a) (gensym b) (gensym c) (gensym d)) (lambda (gensym gensym) (funcall #'foo...
2017-05-08T08:58:45Z shka: sometimes useful, but not often
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2017-05-08T09:42:29Z shka: how to call function that optimizes tree by grabbing data from one of the leaf nodes and putting it subtree node?
2017-05-08T09:45:16Z pjb: shka: functions are called by writing them as the first item of a list, followed by the argument expressions.
2017-05-08T09:45:29Z pjb: shka: for example: (function-that-optimizes  tree)
2017-05-08T09:45:46Z shka: pjb: sir, that is not your ordinary trolling
2017-05-08T09:45:53Z shka: this is pro-level trolling xD
2017-05-08T09:45:55Z pjb: You asked how to call.
2017-05-08T09:46:06Z shka: how to… name?
2017-05-08T09:46:17Z pjb: Oh. Then function-that-optimizes ?
2017-05-08T09:46:20Z shka: yes
2017-05-08T09:46:32Z pjb: Ie. you don't care how it does it, for the name, but what it does.
2017-05-08T09:46:53Z shka: i have been programming in lisp for 2 years now, i know some stuff
2017-05-08T09:47:08Z shka: at least how to write code
2017-05-08T09:47:50Z pjb: Anybody can have some doubts sometimes, even on the basics…
2017-05-08T09:47:51Z guaqua: well, that's a non-trivial, highly implement-dependent question. i can solve it for you, but it will cost you money
2017-05-08T09:48:58Z shka: pjb: yeah, i just can't figure good name, right now it is reconstruct-data-from-subtree
2017-05-08T09:49:07Z shka: which made perfect sense yesterday
2017-05-08T09:49:17Z shka: but honestly, it is not a good name
2017-05-08T09:49:31Z pjb: shka: is it some kind of balancing operation?
2017-05-08T09:49:40Z shka: not exactly
2017-05-08T09:50:17Z shka: basicly this is a trie, but since i like my memory, it is also SORT OF like a tree in the sense that intermediate nodes also hold data
2017-05-08T09:51:27Z shka: it is all nice, but when i have to actually remove something, i may be left with empty node, i don't like that so i am scaning subtree for leaf that may be put in there
2017-05-08T09:51:54Z pjb: Looks to me like it's some kind of low level balancing or rotation operation, for your particular data structure.
2017-05-08T09:52:00Z shka: yes
2017-05-08T09:52:18Z shka: but i want my code to be understandable not just for me
2017-05-08T09:52:53Z shka: so anybody can benefit from it
2017-05-08T09:53:41Z shka: I guess I will just write detailed comment explaining what it does
2017-05-08T09:53:50Z pjb: As an internal function,  I wouldn't mind some "technical" terms in the name, such as optiomize or balance or rotate.  Whatever notion your data structure algorithms use.
2017-05-08T09:54:09Z shka: ok, thanks
2017-05-08T09:54:21Z shka: thanks for helping
2017-05-08T09:54:39Z shka: I think that I realized what needs to be done
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2017-05-08T10:02:10Z shka: pjb: btw, also kudos for willing to help complete newby on trivial issue. It is very nice of you.
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2017-05-08T10:09:24Z jackdaniel never saw pjb refusing to help anybody wrt lisp question
2017-05-08T10:11:22Z phoe: jackdaniel: neither have I, but then there is
2017-05-08T10:11:24Z phoe: 11:45 < pjb> shka: functions are called by writing them as the first item of a list, followed by the argument expressions.
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2017-05-08T10:16:09Z jackdaniel: (?)
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2017-05-08T10:23:37Z shka: jackdaniel: missunderstanding
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2017-05-08T10:29:27Z professore: hi
2017-05-08T10:29:38Z phoe: hey professore
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2017-05-08T10:37:24Z professore: how are you?
2017-05-08T10:41:24Z phoe: I'm good, working. You?
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2017-05-08T12:19:57Z p_l: shka: regarding small, hardware-independent VMs for constrained environments and lisp... there was once a... well, botnet? ... kinda... that ran scheme
2017-05-08T12:20:18Z shka: cute
2017-05-08T12:20:38Z shka: p_l: remember amiga anywhere?
2017-05-08T12:20:42Z p_l: it would drop a micro VM that could embed into target, which provided a distributed (message-passing) Scheme environment
2017-05-08T12:21:04Z shka: well, author may be a criminal
2017-05-08T12:21:13Z shka: but at least he has good taste :P
2017-05-08T12:21:32Z shka: and that sounds like a good design
2017-05-08T12:21:38Z z0d: http://philosecurity.org/2009/01/12/interview-with-an-adware-author
2017-05-08T12:22:05Z p_l: shka: it was done by research team, it wasn't used for crime, at least not by authors (or they didn't get caught)
2017-05-08T12:22:09Z p_l: papers were written, though
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2017-05-08T12:22:33Z shka: right
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2017-05-08T12:22:43Z shka: that explains quality
2017-05-08T12:23:08Z shka: most of this kinda of software is rubbish
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2017-05-08T12:23:49Z shka: but i would totally deploy it world wide
2017-05-08T12:23:55Z p_l: can't find proper links, but have a reddit thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/a8rsg/wasp_lisp_a_small_schemelike_lisp/
2017-05-08T12:24:09Z shka: "you either run scheme, or scheme runs over you!!!"
2017-05-08T12:24:15Z shka: right
2017-05-08T12:24:23Z shka: i better go back to work now
2017-05-08T12:24:27Z shka: but it was interesting
2017-05-08T12:24:33Z shka: z0d: nice link
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2017-05-08T13:06:09Z shrdlu68: Good afternoon, #lisp
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2017-05-08T13:08:52Z shrdlu68: There's this warning in Ironclad: "...integers and arithmetic functions of Common Lisp implementations are usually not safe against side channel attacks."
2017-05-08T13:11:10Z phoe: shrdlu68: because code can be optimized away and for other reasons.
2017-05-08T13:11:41Z shrdlu68: Which, for me, raises the question of whether this is something idiosyncratic to Common Lisp.
2017-05-08T13:12:12Z shrdlu68: I think the same caveat applies to most, if not all, languages.
2017-05-08T13:13:21Z loke___: shrdlu68: That is true
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2017-05-08T13:15:10Z pjb: shrdlu68: integer can be bignums, or not, depending on the input data (or keys).  One can detect that, seeing the impact on the memory system (and vm paging).  Hence the side channel.
2017-05-08T13:16:34Z pjb: shrdlu68: also, arithmetic functions are functions in CL.  Seem obvious, but it's usually not the case in C where arithmetic is directly mapped to native instructions.  Again, depending on the input data, different functions can be called, and this can also be detected, hence another side channel leaking information about the data inside the cryptographic algorithms.
2017-05-08T13:17:48Z shrdlu68: pjb: Is it not possible to implementing the algorithms in such as a manner as to make the possibility of a successful side-channel attack minimal?
2017-05-08T13:17:53Z pjb: In C, you can  more easily write code that will compile to native instructions working on processor registers on a wide range of processors and compilers, since eg. int is specified to map preferably to a native workd and int+int to a native instruction.
2017-05-08T13:18:36Z pjb: shrdlu68: yes, it is. You'd have to cast your data to a given type, etc.
2017-05-08T13:19:01Z phoe: shrdlu68: you can surely write very close to assembly in Lisp if the implementation provides you with such tools.
2017-05-08T13:19:08Z shrdlu68: This seems to imply that assembly, or something close to it, is the only way to write side-channel-safe code.
2017-05-08T13:19:11Z phoe: like SBCL's VOPs.
2017-05-08T13:19:14Z pjb: shrdlu68: it would also be a good idea to provide implementation specific cryptographic primitives avoiding such problems.
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2017-05-08T13:19:56Z pjb: shrdlu68: yes, it seems you have low level control on the code.
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2017-05-08T13:21:27Z shrdlu68: pjb: Intuitively something seems flawed about this reasoning to me. I need to read more on this.
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2017-05-08T13:21:56Z phoe: I want to do an ASDF:BUILD-OP. How can I call SBCL's restrict-compiler-policy *before* actually compiling anything?
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2017-05-08T13:22:05Z pjb: shrdlu68: basically you want to avoid conditionals at all levels. Ideally, you'd want to use reverible computation.
2017-05-08T13:22:41Z pjb: shrdlu68: even inside processors, you can have conditionals (eg. optimizations inside the processor), which can lead to side channel information leaking.
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2017-05-08T13:24:54Z shrdlu68: I know about writing side-channel-free code when comparing data, now I need to read about it as it applies to arithmetic.
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2017-05-08T13:28:11Z pjb: shrdlu68: https://ecm.univ-rennes1.fr/nuxeo/site/esupversions/99c1b833-980a-4ca8-bb86-8a4a7523f315
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2017-05-08T13:35:20Z pjb: Wja
2017-05-08T13:35:52Z pjb: What's a bitch is that with side channel attacks, they don't need to be deteministic, but only statistical…
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2017-05-08T14:00:11Z shrdlu68: pjb: https://ts.data61.csiro.au/projects/TS/cachebleed/
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2017-05-08T14:01:28Z shrdlu68: Heh, at this rate only specialized FPGAs and ASICs seem invulnerable to timing attacks.
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2017-05-08T14:08:00Z pjb: Yes, this is why I said you need implementation (and hardware) support.  Idealy, you'd have some cryptographic operations core in the processor that would be implemented entirely differently than the optimized arithmetics.
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2017-05-08T14:49:33Z shka: don't forget about row hammer ;-)
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2017-05-08T15:26:54Z phoe: Is there a function that will tell me whether a given file is a directory?
2017-05-08T15:27:00Z phoe: like, /home/ ?
2017-05-08T15:30:07Z phoe: well, AND PROBE-FILE UIOP:DIRECTORY-EXISTS-P works well enough.
2017-05-08T15:30:25Z phoe: a bit more complicated, so I also know when something is a file and not a directory.
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2017-05-08T15:37:17Z jackdaniel: (directory-exists-p pathspec)
2017-05-08T15:37:38Z jackdaniel: cl-fad
2017-05-08T15:38:46Z drmeister: Do any implementations have any support for specifying that slots of a class are atomic?
2017-05-08T15:39:05Z jackdaniel: what do you mean by atomic?
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2017-05-08T15:39:17Z jackdaniel: maybe you want synchronized accessors?
2017-05-08T15:39:30Z drmeister: Yes, synchronized accessors in a multi threading environment.
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2017-05-08T15:40:42Z drmeister: I'm looking for ideas on how to specify this
2017-05-08T15:40:48Z jackdaniel: I'm not aware of such extension, however it could be hacked with custom defclass* which defines around method for each slot
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2017-05-08T15:41:44Z drmeister: Hmm, my other option is to pull these slots into the C++ code and use std::atomic<XXX> types.
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2017-05-08T15:45:15Z drmeister: Implementing beach's fast-generic function approach in a multithreaded environment needs thread safe, synchronized access for the call-history and the dispatch function.
2017-05-08T15:46:00Z drmeister: They are both pointers - so I could use std::atomic<xxx> types for them.
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2017-05-08T15:49:07Z Bike: sbcl says you can CAS standard-instance-access, but/so I don't think there's another specifier
2017-05-08T15:50:16Z beach: drmeister: Can't you just use a lock for the generic function?
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2017-05-08T15:50:47Z drmeister: beach: I could - but a lock is kind of expensive.
2017-05-08T15:50:51Z beach: This won't happen often enough that performance matters.
2017-05-08T15:51:05Z drmeister: You make a good point.
2017-05-08T15:51:07Z beach: And modern processors have SLE.
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2017-05-08T15:51:21Z beach: Speculative Lock Elision.
2017-05-08T15:51:34Z drmeister: What is that?
2017-05-08T15:51:37Z drmeister: Looking...
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2017-05-08T15:52:24Z beach: The processor speculates that there will be no simultaneous access, and elides the lock, until the hardware demonstrates that there is such an access, in which case the lock is re-executed without elision.
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2017-05-08T15:53:49Z beach: But, like I said, updating the call history and computing the discriminating function is going to be orders of magnitude more expensive than a lock, SLE or no SLE.
2017-05-08T15:54:58Z z0d: what's SLE?
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2017-05-08T15:55:11Z beach: Speculative Lock Elision.
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2017-05-08T15:55:11Z Suzuran: Read back like 10 lines
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2017-05-08T15:55:20Z z0d: ah. thanks
2017-05-08T15:55:25Z z0d: I did read back but didn't see it
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2017-05-08T15:55:58Z beach: http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=564036
2017-05-08T15:56:35Z beach: I was lucky to sit in a series of lectures by Jim Goodman when I spent a year in the land of the long white cloud.
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2017-05-08T15:57:01Z beach: And that's how I learned about SLE.
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2017-05-08T16:25:53Z shrdlu68: phoe: file-namestring will return a different value for a directory and a file.
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2017-05-08T16:26:47Z shrdlu68: phoe: Because the pathname won't have the name, type, and version components for a directory.
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2017-05-08T16:32:47Z phoe: shrdlu68: yes, thanks.
2017-05-08T16:32:55Z phoe: jackdaniel: UIOP has the same
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2017-05-08T18:24:43Z flip214: pjb: http://pjb.ogamita.org/ doesn't exist anymore, but is referenced in https://www.informatimago.com/
2017-05-08T18:25:43Z flip214: and having "| Mirror on informatimago.com " sounds a bit strange, too ;)
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2017-05-08T19:21:31Z edgar-rft: secrets of Lisp world domination: flood the internet with mirrors of your code
2017-05-08T19:22:00Z phoe: edgar-rft: I bet that's what the npm has planned from the very beginning
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2017-05-08T19:22:38Z jackdaniel: step 2: secret of world destroyal (after acquireing domination): remove alexandria from quicklisp :D
2017-05-08T19:22:57Z phoe: jackdaniel: you sick bastard
2017-05-08T19:23:03Z phoe: that's not alexandria you want to remove
2017-05-08T19:23:07Z phoe: you want to remove SPLIT-SEQUENCE
2017-05-08T19:23:25Z phoe: or, uhm... uh, we're safe, TRIVIAL-LEFT-PAD did not make it into quicklisp
2017-05-08T19:24:29Z eudoxia: remove UIOP -> everything goes down
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2017-05-08T19:25:28Z p_l: ehh, split-sequence is probably one of my favourites
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2017-05-08T19:29:53Z phoe: hey eudoxia
2017-05-08T19:30:00Z phoe: been a while, what's up
2017-05-08T19:31:52Z eudoxia: not much
2017-05-08T19:32:29Z eudoxia: how's the ultraspec coming along
2017-05-08T19:33:14Z phoe: taking a pause from it to write some actual code
2017-05-08T19:33:40Z phoe: but once I deliver this tiny Lisp/Qt app I've been working on, it's time to go back into the specifications
2017-05-08T19:34:16Z eudoxia: cool!
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2017-05-08T19:40:46Z shka_: jackdaniel: you sick bastard
2017-05-08T19:40:54Z shka_: WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT?!
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2017-05-08T19:58:02Z jackdaniel: you definetely read bad literature (or watch bad movies ;)
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2017-05-08T20:10:51Z flip214: I sense a new bad boy here, as seen on TV ("James Bond, Octopussy" or similar)
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2017-05-08T20:18:09Z phoe: you're a big guy
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2017-05-08T21:03:14Z edgar-rft: flip214 ... secrets of biology: boys have no pussies
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2017-05-08T21:39:49Z Suzuran: "Boys have a penis, girls have a vagina" -- Joseph
2017-05-08T21:41:07Z flip214: edgar-rft: really? do tell! wait, I can ask my wife about that ... she's a nurse, so she should know about that.
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2017-05-08T22:34:24Z aeth: phoe: trivial-left-pad isn't in Quicklisp *yet*... wait until some big project depends on it
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2017-05-08T23:01:13Z krator44: i have a kind of really applied question..
2017-05-08T23:01:39Z krator44: is there a way to define a file-scope function
2017-05-08T23:02:31Z krator44: from what i understand the way its done is defining like.. function-scope functions within a let
2017-05-08T23:04:16Z krator44: but what if i just want a few externally accessible functions with a lot of helper functions
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2017-05-08T23:05:42Z Xach: krator44: there is no file scoping. you could make a new package for the file, though.
2017-05-08T23:05:59Z Xach: I do that for some projects. I do it to not worry about name clashes.
2017-05-08T23:06:16Z krator44: hmm yea but then i'd have something like a package per file
2017-05-08T23:07:13Z Xach: krator44: that is not an especially unusual situation.
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2017-05-08T23:09:21Z krator44: ok what about if i have a defun with a let that defines a bunch of additional functions but i don't want the excessive indentation
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2017-05-08T23:09:46Z Bike: flet, you mean?
2017-05-08T23:09:52Z krator44: is there a way to move those subfunctions to a top-level form
2017-05-08T23:10:26Z krator44: either let or flet
2017-05-08T23:10:51Z krator44: (there doesn't appear to be a difference)
2017-05-08T23:11:10Z Bike: one binds in function space, one in variable space. for functions flet will have less indentation, is why i asked.
2017-05-08T23:13:11Z krator44: you don't say.. but what about getting rid of indentation in principle?
2017-05-08T23:14:49Z krator44: i'd just like to substitute those functions in from a top-level form
2017-05-08T23:15:07Z Bike: i've never had much problem from an flet, personally. if using inner functions gets burdonsome i just define them at toplevel with defun instead.
2017-05-08T23:23:51Z krator44: is there a large open source common lisp project that like.. exhibits correct code style
2017-05-08T23:24:31Z Bike: well, the big ones are generally fine.
2017-05-08T23:24:41Z Bike: https://google.github.io/styleguide/lispguide.xml is a style guide.
2017-05-08T23:25:07Z Bike: doesn't say anything about flet tho.
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2017-05-08T23:43:40Z shrdlu68: krator44: Macro can help with avoiding the extra indentations.
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2017-05-08T23:48:50Z krator44: i just don't understand how to keep uh.. line length under a reasonable limit and still write whatever code i wanted (with nested flets etc.)
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2017-05-08T23:51:45Z shrdlu68: krator44: You don't have to nest flets. One flet is enough.
2017-05-08T23:51:54Z Bike: yeah, i'm curious where that would come up.
2017-05-08T23:52:44Z krator44: suppose that i wanted to nest flets
2017-05-08T23:53:42Z krator44: (it's not unreasonable - you have a helper function that has its own helper function)
2017-05-08T23:53:55Z shrdlu68: By the way, if the reason is that the functions reference each other, use labels instead
2017-05-08T23:53:59Z pillton: I'm sure someone has written something like (nest* ((var x 1) (function blah (x y))) (blah x x)).
2017-05-08T23:54:13Z Bike: krator44: it's not unreasonable but i'd just use labels
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2017-05-08T23:55:29Z krator44: Bike: all right but thats besides the point
2017-05-08T23:55:40Z Bike: it is?
2017-05-08T23:57:38Z Bike: i mean, i think in general the solution to "nested arbitrarily deep results in too-long lines" is "don't do that"
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2017-05-08T23:58:03Z shrdlu68: t
2017-05-08T23:59:49Z krator44: so.. the answer to how to write nested functions in a language designed to write nested functions is "don't do that"