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2017-05-06T00:04:54Z pillton: The inferior-shell library is pretty good if you have to invoke other commands.
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2017-05-06T00:07:33Z pillton: The she-bang line can be a bit annoying.
2017-05-06T00:08:36Z pillton: I don't know what people use. I personally use this:   ":" ; exec sbcl --noinform ....
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2017-05-06T00:16:17Z parsnip: hmm, this will be a learning curve, but it already feels a bit less tedious than python to do a simple thing, and much less confusing than bash's confusing notations.
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2017-05-06T00:17:56Z parsnip: ah, inferior-shell, interesting, thanks
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2017-05-06T00:21:58Z pillton: ealfonso: There is iolib, cl-async and basic-binary-ipc for performing non-blocking IO.
2017-05-06T00:23:15Z pillton: ealfonso: usocket appears to provide the function wait-for-input which accepts a timeout argument.
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2017-05-06T00:27:57Z pillton: parsnip: You have to keep in mind that most people use the CL REPL as opposed to the shell.
2017-05-06T00:29:14Z parsnip: so, does that still include a use-case where i script to read and write on nearby files, but are you saying more common to call it from repl?
2017-05-06T00:29:42Z parsnip: and including calling system commands like `ledger`?
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2017-05-06T00:37:35Z pillton: You can do that if you want.
2017-05-06T00:38:50Z pillton: The reason most people use the REPL is that you can interact with the program as you write it.
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2017-05-06T00:41:38Z parsnip: yes, so if i understand the workflow, i use the repl while i'm designing the lisp "script", then once happy with it, call it however is convenient?
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2017-05-06T00:44:24Z pillton: Yes, where "convenient" includes the REPL.
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2017-05-06T02:22:11Z akkad: is there a eml parser for cl?
2017-05-06T02:28:09Z edgar-rft: there's <http://quickdocs.org/mime4cl/api> but I don't know if that's what you're looking for
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2017-05-06T02:28:48Z akkad: thanks. will dig into it.
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2017-05-06T02:34:40Z parsnip: ,ppcre
2017-05-06T02:34:56Z akkad: wrong channel
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2017-05-06T02:40:04Z akkad: monctezuma looks like what I need
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2017-05-06T05:05:03Z paule32: hello
2017-05-06T05:05:16Z paule32: need help:  http://codepad.org/FVz9GJGV
2017-05-06T05:05:28Z paule32: line 32
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2017-05-06T05:13:31Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-05-06T05:13:40Z paule32: hi beach
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2017-05-06T05:14:01Z beach: paule32: You ask for advice, but you don't listen to it much, do you?
2017-05-06T05:14:29Z paule32: yes, sorry, many to do in the household
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2017-05-06T05:15:07Z beach: You have been told several times that, when you submit code for others to read, you should format it according to the expectations of these people.
2017-05-06T05:15:24Z beach: One time, a very nice #lisp participant even re-formated the code for you.
2017-05-06T05:15:32Z beach: But you didn't look at it.
2017-05-06T05:15:38Z paule32: ok, wait
2017-05-06T05:16:01Z beach: For starters, you never put whitespace before a closing parenthesis.
2017-05-06T05:16:35Z beach: Second, you need to indent your code according to the conventions.
2017-05-06T05:16:47Z beach: For that, you need an editor that can do it for you.
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2017-05-06T05:17:18Z beach: Common Lisp programmers rely on correct indentation to understand your program.
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2017-05-06T05:17:43Z beach: If it is incorrect, you force the nice people who want to help you to count your parentheses.
2017-05-06T05:18:44Z beach: That is very impolite behavior, because you are wasting the time of dozens of nice Common Lisp programmers, whereas YOU should spend that time making sure your code is correctly formated.
2017-05-06T05:19:36Z paule32: http://paste.lisp.org/display/345911
2017-05-06T05:19:38Z beach: You have also been told to go read an introductory book about Common Lisp.  If you had done that, you would have seen that there are no examples in any such book that would format the code the way you format yours.
2017-05-06T05:20:43Z beach: You are still not using an editor to indent your code properly, and you still have dangling closing parentheses.  So you continue to waste the time of dozens of nice #lisp participants without following their advice.
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2017-05-06T05:22:31Z beach: Once you have read such a book, you would understand that using SETQ to assign to a variable without first defining that variable is unspecified behavior according to the Common Lisp HyperSpec.
2017-05-06T05:23:50Z p_l: paule32: Not wanting to pile up on you, but you might be interested in Practical Common Lisp, a rather approachable book on programming common lisp which will definitely help (I still look up examples from it!)
2017-05-06T05:23:56Z p_l: and it's available for free on the net
2017-05-06T05:24:04Z p_l: http://gigamonkeys.com/book/
2017-05-06T05:24:28Z paule32: thank you
2017-05-06T05:24:41Z p_l: as for indentation, good editors tend to ensure it for you (only used emacs in years, so I can't recommend much other than emacs+slime)
2017-05-06T05:24:54Z paule32: i search for editor, not emacs
2017-05-06T05:25:14Z p_l: but the "standard" indentation is much easier to read than C-like
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2017-05-06T05:26:50Z p_l: paule32: recently someone pointed me to atom-slime, which is an extension for http://atom.io which integrates Common Lisp editing into it
2017-05-06T05:27:16Z p_l: it might be easier to get started with it than with emacs, though Emacs is still better long-term
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2017-05-06T05:27:35Z p_l: but I don't want to discourage anyone with Emacs'... very specific quirks
2017-05-06T05:28:36Z beach: paule32: You can of course use any editor you like, but the general recommendation here is to use Emacs + SLIME because that combination is known to indent the code in an acceptable way.  For most other choices, you are going to have the same problems as you do now, i.e., people like me are going to point out to you that it is impolite to submit incorrectly formated code for others to read.
2017-05-06T05:28:59Z paule32: ok, atm i install emacs
2017-05-06T05:29:41Z p_l: beach: atom-slime *might* be acceptable low-end alternative in some time, though
2017-05-06T05:29:52Z beach: paule32: It is installed by default if you use GNU/Linux.
2017-05-06T05:29:57Z p_l: beach: a way to cut down oft-inevitable holy war
2017-05-06T05:30:00Z p_l: beach: not on Ubuntu
2017-05-06T05:30:10Z paule32: no, linux mint, many to install
2017-05-06T05:30:22Z paule32: ok
2017-05-06T05:30:23Z beach: p_l: Oh, no longer?  It used to be.
2017-05-06T05:30:27Z p_l: beach: long time ago
2017-05-06T05:30:35Z beach: :(
2017-05-06T05:30:50Z paule32: do i need parameters when start emacs?
2017-05-06T05:30:51Z p_l: I barely notice except for having to work with ubuntu
2017-05-06T05:31:06Z beach: p_l: I see.
2017-05-06T05:31:25Z p_l: paule32: for just editing? No
2017-05-06T05:31:48Z p_l: just open a file with .lisp extension, can be using the graphical menu for starters, and it will do what it needs to.
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2017-05-06T05:32:46Z p_l: to reindent a function, put cursor on the function, hit Ctrl-c then Alt-q
2017-05-06T05:33:32Z p_l: (or play with tab, that shortcut might be in something extra now that I think of it)
2017-05-06T05:33:37Z p_l: gotta go, brb
2017-05-06T05:33:45Z paule32: C-c is undefined
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2017-05-06T06:18:41Z loke___: paule32: Have you had any prior experience with Emacs?
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2017-05-06T06:20:26Z loke___ acknowledges that for someone who doesn't know Emacs, learning Lisp means learning two different new things at the same time. There is a reason for that, and that is because Lisp requires proper formatting to be readable. Once you _have_ that proper formatting, it is more readable than other languages. So, in a sense, Lisp is more sensitive to indentation mistakes than other languages which is why people are so sensitive to bad indentation.
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2017-05-06T08:15:21Z shrdlu68: Good morning, #lisp.
2017-05-06T08:18:27Z loke___: Hello
2017-05-06T08:19:31Z beach: Hello shrdlu68.
2017-05-06T08:24:36Z daemoz: Oh my god, having to go back to working in C after starting to learn Lisp... THE BOILERPLATE NOOOO
2017-05-06T08:25:05Z shrdlu68: daemoz: Why do you have to?
2017-05-06T08:26:44Z daemoz: shrdlu68: I guess I thought it'd be good to do this project in c to keep myself fresh on it Regretting that decision though.
2017-05-06T08:27:45Z daemoz: It honestly wouldn't even be THAT bad if I could use macros. I've seen some macro extensions for c but they seem to just not have the same flexibility.
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2017-05-06T08:28:12Z beach: daemoz: What is the project?
2017-05-06T08:28:16Z daemoz: Has anyone ever written a c source compositor? Just a development environment that shit's out c code with macros?
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2017-05-06T08:28:20Z shrdlu68: I started my current project in C too, for some bizarre reason.
2017-05-06T08:28:35Z loke___: daemoz: Yes There is one.
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2017-05-06T08:28:42Z shrdlu68: I started my current project in C too, for some bizarre reason. Abandoned it after about 2k lines.
2017-05-06T08:28:51Z daemoz: beach: video mixing and sdl rendering application for performance.
2017-05-06T08:29:04Z daemoz: loke___: Nice! I don't have to write it myself. Do you know what it's called?
2017-05-06T08:29:33Z daemoz: shrdlu68: I'm almost at that point. I know there's cl-sdl but I wonder what the limitations are performance-wise? Anyone know?
2017-05-06T08:29:37Z loke___: If only I could remember
2017-05-06T08:30:31Z loke___: This one perhaps?
2017-05-06T08:30:34Z loke___: https://github.com/eudoxia0/cmacro
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2017-05-06T08:31:05Z daemoz: loke___: That's the one I found too. Looks a bit less featured than the one I saw on YC a few weeks ago. I wonder if I could find that one..
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2017-05-06T08:31:29Z daemoz: I wonder if there's one written in lisp. You could make a pretty badass development environment within emacs.
2017-05-06T08:31:36Z loke___: I've seen others.
2017-05-06T08:31:43Z loke___: Didn't pjb do one?
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2017-05-06T08:32:10Z daemoz: One I had saved was this same one.
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2017-05-06T08:35:40Z daemoz: Gonna try it out.
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2017-05-06T09:00:13Z daemoz: Welp, that wasn't fun. It's a total mess and there's virtually no documentation.
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2017-05-06T09:11:39Z paule32: loke___: no i don't emacs before
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2017-05-06T09:25:41Z paule32: http://paste.lisp.org/display/345931
2017-05-06T09:25:58Z paule32: is that better? text format
2017-05-06T09:29:11Z shka_: paule32: hey, i have few points here
2017-05-06T09:29:28Z shka_: first of, you almost never use setq
2017-05-06T09:29:32Z shka_: instead, use setf
2017-05-06T09:29:49Z shka_: that's one thing
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2017-05-06T09:30:12Z shka_: secondly, that setq duden1 form is bizarre indented
2017-05-06T09:30:24Z paule32: emacs ident
2017-05-06T09:30:39Z shka_: yeah, but closing paranthese in new line?
2017-05-06T09:30:42Z shka_: that is weird
2017-05-06T09:30:50Z paule32: ok
2017-05-06T09:31:30Z shka_: as for string-to-list, it can be done with just a single line in fact
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2017-05-06T09:31:59Z shka_: for instance: (map 'list #'identity "string")
2017-05-06T09:32:49Z shka_: i think that COERCE would also work
2017-05-06T09:33:04Z shka_: as for strcat
2017-05-06T09:33:32Z shka_: you can do it with just format
2017-05-06T09:33:37Z shka_: it should be written like this
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2017-05-06T09:35:35Z shka_: (defun strcat (string &rest more-strings) (format nil "~a~{~a~^~}" string more-strings))
2017-05-06T09:36:01Z shka_: as you can see you don't need explicit output to string because format can do it already
2017-05-06T09:36:22Z shka_: you also don't need separate loop, because format can do it already
2017-05-06T09:36:29Z shka_: format is kinda crazy, you see :-)
2017-05-06T09:36:42Z paule32: yeah
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2017-05-06T09:37:13Z shka_: sadly, i can't speak or read german so not all comments are useful to me
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2017-05-06T09:38:32Z shka_: there is also one more important point
2017-05-06T09:39:02Z shka_: you are calling setq (as I said, you would rather use setf here) on variable that does not exist
2017-05-06T09:39:22Z shka_: what it does is establishing global variable in lexical scope
2017-05-06T09:39:51Z shka_: you usually want to avoid doing that so you want to use DEFVAR
2017-05-06T09:40:11Z shka_: this way scope will be dynamic
2017-05-06T09:40:22Z shka_: PCL has this thing explained really well
2017-05-06T09:40:41Z pjb: shka_: happily nowadays you have access to google translate.
2017-05-06T09:41:26Z shka_: well, i can figure out what Startpunkt des LISP Programms says, but it shouldn't be required ;-)
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2017-05-06T09:41:44Z paule32: entrypoint
2017-05-06T09:41:46Z pjb: paule32: don't you use emacs?
2017-05-06T09:41:56Z shka_: paule32: yeah, i know :-)
2017-05-06T09:42:23Z shka_: aah one more thiing
2017-05-06T09:42:24Z paule32: no, i use it
2017-05-06T09:42:36Z shka_: paule32: regarding your read-array function
2017-05-06T09:42:41Z paule32: i must go in the citchen
2017-05-06T09:42:47Z pjb: paule32: then let emacs do the indenting for you!
2017-05-06T09:42:49Z paule32: be back later
2017-05-06T09:43:19Z shka_: paule32: you are setqing variable that is not yet established
2017-05-06T09:43:24Z shka_: it is not a good thing to do
2017-05-06T09:43:32Z shka_: usually it leads to errors
2017-05-06T09:44:04Z shka_: anyway, i thing that i covered everything at this point
2017-05-06T09:44:19Z shka_: paule32: keep it up! :-)
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2017-05-06T10:03:03Z Grue`: why use FORMAT for strcat when there's already CONCATENATE? (defun strcat (&rest strings) (apply 'concatenate 'string strings))
2017-05-06T10:04:04Z pjb: To convert non-strings into strings?
2017-05-06T10:04:13Z pjb: Only he skips over non-strings :-)
2017-05-06T10:04:17Z shka_: Grue`: good point, though
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2017-05-06T10:04:39Z Grue`: I mean, you can add (remove-if-not 'stringp ...) or something
2017-05-06T10:04:57Z shka_: i forgot about concatenate because somehow my brain screams FORMAT! when i see strings
2017-05-06T10:05:03Z shka_: ;-)
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2017-05-06T10:05:37Z pjb: And it's strange to return NIL on non lists. You would rather return "" here.
2017-05-06T10:05:58Z pjb: Also strange that (strcat "hello") -> nil instead of "hello"…
2017-05-06T10:06:03Z Grue`: I never remember right away how to use control flow stuff in format, so if a standard function would do I'd rather use that
2017-05-06T10:07:05Z pjb: (defun strcat (list) (format nil "~{~A~}" list)) (strcat '("Hello" #\space 42 !)) #| --> "Hello 42!" |#
2017-05-06T10:07:22Z pjb: would more more useful than (strcat '("Hello" #\space 42 !)) -> "Hello".
2017-05-06T10:10:17Z Grue`: paule32: i have an issue with the following line: (setq the-list (append the-list (list returned-value)))
2017-05-06T10:10:23Z Grue`: you probably should use (push (list returned-value) the-list)
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2017-05-06T10:10:42Z Grue`: except the-list will end up in reverse order
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2017-05-06T10:10:59Z Grue`: so you can (setf the-list (reverse the-list)) at the end
2017-05-06T10:11:33Z Grue`: it's more efficient to add stuff at the beginning of the list because of how linked lists work
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2017-05-06T10:12:19Z Grue`: sequentially appending elements to the end of linked list is a quadratic time operation
2017-05-06T10:12:46Z Grue`: also I messed up, it should be (push returned-value the-list)
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2017-05-06T11:10:49Z paule32: hello Grue`
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2017-05-06T11:11:21Z paule32: look here: http://arantxa.ii.uam.es/~asuarez/docencia/ai/english/slides/lispFinal.pdf
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2017-05-06T11:18:37Z beach: paule32: It looks pretty old.  And it has some incorrect terminology.
2017-05-06T11:19:51Z beach: paule32: And the page about functional programming is out of place.  Common Lisp is not particularly a "functional language" in this sense.
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2017-05-06T11:20:38Z beach: paule32: The style is bad too.  Sometimes the name of the langauge is written LISP, sometimes Lisp, and sometimes lisp.
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2017-05-06T11:22:54Z Grue`: paule32: why?
2017-05-06T11:22:58Z beach: And it uses SETF on variables that have not been defined.
2017-05-06T11:23:48Z paule32: Grue`: i am a beginner, and collect data to learn
2017-05-06T11:23:52Z beach: There is not a concept of a "command" in Common Lisp.  It is called an "operator".
2017-05-06T11:24:21Z beach: The indentation is bad almost everywhere.
2017-05-06T11:25:07Z beach: Sometimes there is a newline after COND, sometimes not.
2017-05-06T11:25:25Z beach: Naming a variable "lst" is bad style, and smells of Scheme.
2017-05-06T11:25:34Z Grue`: paule32: and how does it relate to anything I wrote? I'm pretty sure it does explain how linked lists work
2017-05-06T11:26:02Z Grue`: and why repeatedly appending to the end is bad
2017-05-06T11:26:27Z beach: There is no standard operator WHILE in Common Lisp.
2017-05-06T11:26:37Z paule32: 12:10:15 - Grue`: paule32: i have an issue with the following line: (setq the-list (append the-list (list returned-value)))
2017-05-06T11:26:37Z paule32: 12:10:22 - Grue`: you probably should use (push (list returned-value) the-list)
2017-05-06T11:26:43Z paule32: i missread
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2017-05-06T11:28:10Z beach: There is no such thing as a "lambda function".
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2017-05-06T11:29:30Z Grue`: paule32: though I can see why you'd write your code after reading "Iterative version (DO NOT USE)" section (if you happen to miss the DO NOT USE warning)
2017-05-06T11:30:17Z Grue`: sadly it doesn't explain how to iterative version properly
2017-05-06T11:30:35Z beach: Using recursion on lists is a bad idea.
2017-05-06T11:31:04Z paule32: how can i do it better?
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2017-05-06T11:31:27Z beach: The definition of scalar-product lacks an opening parenthesis.
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2017-05-06T11:32:37Z beach: Right, the advice related to our-remove-if is exactly the contrary to what it should be.
2017-05-06T11:33:35Z beach: The page about tail recursion seems to suggest that Common Lisp implementation must optimize the tail call.
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2017-05-06T11:34:20Z phoe: beach: must optimize?
2017-05-06T11:34:22Z beach: There is a destructive operation on a constant list.  The behavior of that is undefined.
2017-05-06T11:34:44Z beach: phoe: Must not use another stack frame.
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2017-05-06T11:35:50Z beach: That's all I could find after a quick read.
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2017-05-06T11:37:37Z phoe: beach: Which page about tail recursion?
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2017-05-06T11:38:09Z deank: CL doesn't guarantee recursion
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2017-05-06T11:38:25Z deank: CL doesn't guarantee tail call optimization, even
2017-05-06T11:38:37Z phoe: "Recursion is preferred to iteration in LISP" <- this is false
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2017-05-06T11:39:24Z phoe: it might be preferred in Lisp dialects that guarantee tail call optimization like Schemes
2017-05-06T11:39:34Z phoe: but not in CL
2017-05-06T11:40:16Z TMA: i consider that the CL's greatest shortcoming
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2017-05-06T11:42:25Z beach: phoe: In the PDF file that paule32 provided a link to.
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2017-05-06T11:42:46Z phoe: beach: yes, I found it - thanks.
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2017-05-06T11:44:51Z varjagg: TMA: that's pretty mild as language shortcomings go
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2017-05-06T11:50:29Z beach: paule32: I strongly advice you to learn Common Lisp from a different source than the one you provided a link to.
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2017-05-06T12:01:17Z phoe: minion: tell paule32 about pcl
2017-05-06T12:01:21Z minion: paule32: please look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
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2017-05-06T13:16:33Z shrdlu68: I've posted to comp.lang.lisp in a (feeble) attempt to get cl-tls contributors/support.
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2017-05-06T13:39:36Z shrdlu68: There's a guy spamming comp.lang.lisp in arabic.
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2017-05-06T13:46:06Z phoe: Yep.
2017-05-06T13:46:20Z phoe: I'd ask for a moderator, but hey, that's mailing lists.
2017-05-06T13:46:28Z shrdlu68: It's maddening.
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2017-05-06T13:46:45Z shrdlu68: Still, you can click on "report abuse"
2017-05-06T13:47:16Z shrdlu68: That group is sadly being drowned in arabic spam.
2017-05-06T13:47:55Z shrdlu68: It would be less sad if someone profited from the spam, but this is just meaningless noise.
2017-05-06T13:49:47Z shrdlu68: And google groups _do_ have moderators, apparently.
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2017-05-06T13:52:18Z phoe: Haha. Who are they here?
2017-05-06T13:53:04Z shrdlu68: I don't know. I'll ask for help on /r/lisp
2017-05-06T13:53:08Z phoe: Yes please.
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2017-05-06T14:07:32Z Grue`: c.l.l is not a google group, or mailing list. it's a Usenet newsgroup. these don't have moderators, as a matter of fact
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2017-05-06T14:08:00Z Grue`: Usenet users are supposed to have their own "killfile" to filter out spam and the users they dont like
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2017-05-06T14:10:18Z presiden: azzamsa: hi :)
2017-05-06T14:11:22Z presiden: azzamsa: doing lisp too?
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2017-05-06T14:12:53Z White_Flame introduces Grue` to the concept of Eternal September ;)
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2017-05-06T14:15:59Z zshlyg: during quicklisp compilation of ironclad: Symbol "BIGNUM-TYPE" not found in the SB-BIGNUM package.
2017-05-06T14:16:27Z phoe: zshlyg: SBCL version?
2017-05-06T14:16:41Z zshlyg: phoe: 1.3.17
2017-05-06T14:16:49Z phoe: weird
2017-05-06T14:17:26Z zshlyg: ok, if it is nothing known I'll dig into it.
2017-05-06T14:17:29Z shrdlu68: zshlyg: What's your cpu type? ARM? x86?
2017-05-06T14:18:20Z zshlyg: shrdlu68: freebsd 10.3 on i386
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2017-05-06T14:18:41Z oleo: one question
2017-05-06T14:18:46Z oleo: what does grovling mean ?
2017-05-06T14:19:01Z phoe: oleo: scanning C header files to autogenerate Lisp wrappers for them
2017-05-06T14:19:21Z oleo: ok thank you phoe
2017-05-06T14:19:41Z phoe: oleo: https://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/html_node/The-Groveller.html
2017-05-06T14:19:51Z phoe: the first paragraph
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2017-05-06T14:27:37Z shrdlu68: phoe: You opened an issue in froydnj/ironclad requesting a new release?
2017-05-06T14:27:53Z shrdlu68: Last and final release was on March 7.
2017-05-06T14:28:11Z shrdlu68: But 0.34 is still not on quicklisp.
2017-05-06T14:28:36Z zshlyg: regarding sb-bignum:bignum-type the file it complains about is: quicklisp/software/ironclad_0.33.0/src/digests/digest.lisp
2017-05-06T14:29:02Z phoe: shrdlu68: sure thing, but commits are being made after 0.34
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2017-05-06T14:29:33Z phoe: they need to be made into a new relese.
2017-05-06T14:29:35Z phoe: release.
2017-05-06T14:30:10Z phoe: the fact that the original author decided to stop contributing doesn't mean that ironclad is a read-only box now.
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2017-05-06T14:31:39Z shrdlu68: phoe: Where are the commits? I see the last commit was March 7th.
2017-05-06T14:31:54Z shrdlu68: Sure thing, it needs to stay updated.
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2017-05-06T14:32:21Z zshlyg: Can it be that sb-bignum:bignum-type is an remnant from ages ago? I have an sbcl 1.1.7 on x86-32 that also complains about that symbol missing. What is the proper check to check for bignum if I want to do a quickfix?
2017-05-06T14:32:27Z shrdlu68: I don't believe I've seen updated documentation for the new stuff.
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2017-05-06T14:34:02Z shrdlu68: zshlyg: Could you grab version 0.34 instead and see if the problem will go away?
2017-05-06T14:34:20Z shrdlu68: That might be a quick fix.
2017-05-06T14:34:28Z zshlyg: Oh, the code is just (locally (declare (optimize (safety 0)) (type sb-bignum:bignum-type length)) ...) I can remove that block safly, should suffer a performanc hit maybe.
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2017-05-06T14:37:27Z zshlyg: Ok, doing #+nil(type sb-bignum:bignum-type length) made the compile go through, consider upstream patch
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2017-05-06T14:47:32Z TMA: zshlyg: use #+(or) instead of #+nil
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2017-05-06T14:54:40Z paule32: hello
2017-05-06T14:54:46Z paule32: i do:  (dolist (print (car '(x)))
2017-05-06T14:55:01Z paule32: it prints:   ("JENS" ("KALLUP" "MUSTERMANN" "SWADA"))
2017-05-06T14:55:15Z paule32: so, i want the first element
2017-05-06T14:55:22Z paule32: with car?
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2017-05-06T14:55:47Z paule32: but get this:  *** - ENDP: A proper list must not end with X
2017-05-06T14:56:11Z zshlyg: TMA: why? isn't #+nil very established?
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2017-05-06T14:56:32Z beach: zshlyg: It may be, but it's wrong nevertheless.
2017-05-06T14:56:44Z paule32: have i insert list before "JENS" like:  (list "JENS" (list "MUSTER"))
2017-05-06T14:56:46Z paule32: ?
2017-05-06T14:56:54Z ttt72 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2017-05-06T14:56:56Z zshlyg: I refuse! #+(or) is one more character to type!
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2017-05-06T14:57:34Z beach: zshlyg: You can do what you want, of course.  But it is better to have correct code if you are going to share it with others.
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2017-05-06T14:58:34Z zshlyg: beach: being stubborn, can you create a conforming CL such that #+nil will not work as it does now?
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2017-05-06T14:58:56Z beach: zshlyg: NIL is in fact the name of a Lisp implementation.
2017-05-06T14:59:18Z beach: zshlyg: And nyef told us the other day he was going to write his own Nyef's Implementation of Lisp.
2017-05-06T14:59:45Z paule32: http://paste.lisp.org/display/345961
2017-05-06T14:59:55Z beach: zshlyg: The point is that #+nil is just wrong.
2017-05-06T15:00:10Z zshlyg: beach: Oh, I see how that is bad then.
2017-05-06T15:00:58Z zshlyg: beach: no! I take that back, since nil is a reserved word, a NIL named CL can't claim #+nil like sbcl claims #+sbcl.
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2017-05-06T15:02:13Z zshlyg: I once tried to switch to #-t thinking it would be the logical double-negate of #+nil :)
2017-05-06T15:02:38Z beach: zshlyg: (push :nil *features*) #+nil (print "hello")
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2017-05-06T15:03:22Z beach: zshlyg: There are no "reserved words" in Common Lisp.
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2017-05-06T15:08:00Z zshlyg: beach: you are correct, I'm assuming/"so used to" always working in a '(use :cl) package.
2017-05-06T15:08:36Z beach: How is that related?
2017-05-06T15:11:53Z zshlyg: beach: that is where I've picked up the "reserved words" from, from always being in a package which has :cl.
2017-05-06T15:12:21Z zshlyg: Funny how many hits (apropos 'foo) makes on sbcl
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2017-05-06T15:22:45Z nyef: zshlyg: CL:NIL isn't necessarily EQ to :NIL, btw.
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2017-05-06T15:24:29Z beach: Hence my question about how it is related.
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2017-05-06T15:26:05Z nyef: Yes; you were questioning the underlying assumption without identifying it, I identified and denied the underlying assumption.
2017-05-06T15:26:19Z phoe: (eq nil :nil) ;=> nil
2017-05-06T15:26:22Z beach: Exactly.
2017-05-06T15:26:24Z nyef: ... Which leads to a question, actually: Which approach is better pedagogy?
2017-05-06T15:26:31Z nyef: phoe: Not necessarily, actually.
2017-05-06T15:26:43Z phoe: nyef: if you intern NIL inside the keyword package instead of creating a new symbol?
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2017-05-06T15:27:00Z phoe: you cannot do it
2017-05-06T15:27:10Z phoe: because then, according to the package rules, :nil will need to evaluate to :nil
2017-05-06T15:27:16Z nyef: phoe: AFAIK, it would be legal for CL:NIL to be EQ to KEYWORD:NIL
2017-05-06T15:27:20Z phoe: where nil is required to evaluate to nil
2017-05-06T15:27:26Z shrdlu68: cl:t and cl:nil are constants, clever.
2017-05-06T15:27:28Z phoe: nyef: what would it evaluate to, then?
2017-05-06T15:27:35Z nyef: Itself, of course!
2017-05-06T15:27:43Z phoe: no no
2017-05-06T15:27:49Z nyef: Per the rules of both CL:NIL and KEYWORD:NIL.
2017-05-06T15:27:51Z phoe: uh
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2017-05-06T15:28:27Z phoe: this is more funny than I thought
2017-05-06T15:28:44Z phoe: but what would its home package be?
2017-05-06T15:28:47Z nyef: KEYWORD.
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2017-05-06T15:29:02Z phoe: and you intern KEYWORD:NIL into package CL?
2017-05-06T15:29:05Z nyef: But it would be imported and re-exported from COMMON-LISP.
2017-05-06T15:29:12Z phoe: s/intern/import
2017-05-06T15:29:15Z phoe: geez
2017-05-06T15:29:21Z shrdlu68: hehe
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2017-05-06T15:29:26Z nyef: Which is legal per the constraints on CL symbols.
2017-05-06T15:29:50Z nyef: (They are permitted to have a home-package which is not CL itself.)
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2017-05-06T15:30:00Z phoe facepalms
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2017-05-06T15:30:11Z nyef: Same applies for CL:T and :T, btw.
2017-05-06T15:30:54Z phoe facepalms²
2017-05-06T15:31:40Z phoe: it can be done
2017-05-06T15:31:46Z phoe: which doesn't mean it should be done
2017-05-06T15:32:15Z nyef: "We do what we must, because we can."
2017-05-06T15:33:13Z phoe: the person that ended up singing these words ended up dead
2017-05-06T15:33:22Z phoe: and then alive
2017-05-06T15:33:25Z phoe: and then a potato
2017-05-06T15:33:39Z nyef: You're mistaking the character and the voice actress, aren't you?
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2017-05-06T15:34:07Z phoe: no, that was a song sung by GLaDOS herself
2017-05-06T15:34:09Z nyef: I mean, sure, she's going to end up dead. Because everybody does eventually.
2017-05-06T15:34:23Z phoe: it is a part of the Portal lore
2017-05-06T15:34:27Z nyef: GLaDOS is the character.
2017-05-06T15:34:43Z phoe: yes, and the lyrics of the song are her words
2017-05-06T15:35:21Z nyef: GLaDOS is not a vocaloid. And even the whole "vocaloid" thing is sketchy. There was a real, actual human who sung the song for the soundtrack.
2017-05-06T15:35:30Z phoe: yes, I know
2017-05-06T15:35:46Z nyef: Are you saying that that real, actual human is dead?
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2017-05-06T15:36:20Z phoe: no, I'm saying that GLaDOS as a character ended up dead
2017-05-06T15:36:25Z phoe goes to #lispcafe
2017-05-06T15:37:01Z nyef: ... Mmm. Silly argument anyway.
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2017-05-06T15:40:32Z phoe: yes
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2017-05-06T16:21:10Z paule32: http://paste.lisp.org/display/345968
2017-05-06T16:21:18Z paule32: how can i search for "JENS"
2017-05-06T16:21:20Z paule32: ?
2017-05-06T16:22:48Z shrdlu68: paule32: Use an association list.
2017-05-06T16:23:01Z jackdaniel: paule32: at first glance I can tell it is a very bad Common Lisp you try to write
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2017-05-06T16:23:15Z jackdaniel: regarding searching strings in sequences, you need to provide test equal
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2017-05-06T16:23:17Z jackdaniel: (find "JENS" (vector "A" "JENS") :test #'equal)
2017-05-06T16:23:26Z jackdaniel: minion: tell paule32 about pcl
2017-05-06T16:23:26Z minion: paule32: please see pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2017-05-06T16:23:27Z Bike: they've been recommended PCL at least a dozen times now
2017-05-06T16:23:31Z jackdaniel: ah
2017-05-06T16:23:45Z Bike: just a bit frustrating
2017-05-06T16:23:51Z jackdaniel: yeah
2017-05-06T16:24:08Z shrdlu68: paule32 is determined to learn by his own fashion.
2017-05-06T16:24:29Z paule32: yeah, i have to translate the english stuff
2017-05-06T16:24:37Z shrdlu68: Well, the end justifies the means.
2017-05-06T16:24:40Z jackdaniel: paule32: if you are not going to follow advices received in this channel, then don't ask questions – it's a waste of time for everybody
2017-05-06T16:25:37Z jackdaniel: I mean – it is OK to not know something, but rejecting help to understand it (by means of a very good learning material) isn't nice to people you expect help from
2017-05-06T16:25:55Z paule32: you right
2017-05-06T16:25:58Z paule32: i am to fast
2017-05-06T16:26:58Z shrdlu68: Is there a free version of Land of Lisp?
2017-05-06T16:29:57Z paule32: book?
2017-05-06T16:30:04Z paule32: yes , i read it
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2017-05-06T16:30:34Z shrdlu68: You can't have.
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2017-05-06T17:38:38Z sacculina: apparently there's a german translation of Land of Lisp out there somewhere (according to a quick google search)
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2017-05-06T17:39:28Z sacculina: so, yeah, i definitely recommend working through that book, exercise by exercise. #lisp is always happy to help, but a book makes a much more patient tutor, when it becomes a full-time thing.
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2017-05-06T17:41:40Z sacculina: https://www.amazon.de/Land-Lisp-Lisp-Programmierung-programmieren-Professional/dp/3826691636
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2017-05-06T17:55:36Z paule32: http://paste.lisp.org/
2017-05-06T17:55:50Z paule32: how can i get SWADA?
2017-05-06T17:55:55Z paule32: i read up ELT
2017-05-06T17:56:14Z paule32: but i lost in error
2017-05-06T17:57:01Z paule32: http://www.lispmachine.net/books/common_lisp_the_language.pdf
2017-05-06T17:57:43Z phoe: paule32: what's SWADA?
2017-05-06T17:58:14Z phoe: paule32: CLtL2 is a good book, but it has stuff that did not make it into the standard language and are therefore unsupported.
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2017-05-06T17:59:30Z paule32: scify name, it came into my mind - random name
2017-05-06T18:03:00Z beach: paule32: Why are you showing us a link to that book?
2017-05-06T18:03:56Z shka_: to be fair, it is not that random :D
2017-05-06T18:04:38Z shka_: paule32: seriously, PCL is just fine.
2017-05-06T18:04:55Z shka_: you may like land of lisp if you found PCL boring or something
2017-05-06T18:05:09Z shka_: and common lisp the language is not a tutorial book
2017-05-06T18:05:26Z shka_: (but it is worth reading if you want to understand lisp design)
2017-05-06T18:05:55Z beach: paule32: And why are you showing us a link to paste.lisp.org?  Most people here already know about that site.
2017-05-06T18:06:41Z shka_: paule32: there is also paip book by norvig, but it is not as accessible as LOL or PCL
2017-05-06T18:07:01Z shka_: ok, that would be it :-)
2017-05-06T18:08:03Z beach: shka_: As jackdaniel pointed out, it appears that paule32 asks for help, but then does not follow the advice that is given.
2017-05-06T18:08:18Z shka_: hmm
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2017-05-06T18:08:32Z shka_: paule32: don't be such a askhole ;-)
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2017-05-06T18:12:13Z paule32: i show you code, because some one wrote to share code for community here
2017-05-06T18:12:26Z paule32: i have a problem, so i use paste
2017-05-06T18:12:44Z paule32: i would like iter trough string vector
2017-05-06T18:12:54Z paule32: the first run is fine
2017-05-06T18:13:10Z paule32: so, i can find "JENS" or "PETER"
2017-05-06T18:13:25Z beach: paule32: You did not show any code.  The link is to the paste.lisp.org site, not to your code.  You did not show any code.
2017-05-06T18:13:41Z pjb: (loop for char across "string" do (princ char))
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2017-05-06T18:14:04Z pjb: (loop for string across #("a" "string" "named" "wanda") do (princ string))
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2017-05-06T18:14:19Z pjb: but if you want to find, you don't have to loop!
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2017-05-06T18:14:40Z pjb: (find "JENS"  #("a" "string" "named" "wanda") :test (function string=))
2017-05-06T18:15:14Z paule32: beach: http://paste.lisp.org/display/345817#3
2017-05-06T18:16:05Z paule32: thank you pjb
2017-05-06T18:16:56Z pjb: People usually learn a programming language before starting writing programs in it…
2017-05-06T18:17:09Z mazoe: evening all
2017-05-06T18:17:21Z mazoe: does anyone run sbcl on arch linux?
2017-05-06T18:17:32Z Bike: me.
2017-05-06T18:17:39Z Bike: though i don't usually use the repo one.
2017-05-06T18:17:54Z mazoe: I’m having issues with cl+ssl and wondering if it’s my setup...
2017-05-06T18:18:02Z mazoe: particularly, doing https requests (e.g. with drakma)
2017-05-06T18:18:18Z nyef: pjb: IME, people usually learn a programming language *by* writing programs in it.
2017-05-06T18:18:18Z mazoe: alien function CRYPTO_num_locks not defined
2017-05-06T18:18:36Z mazoe: Bike: hmm ok, I’ll try with the upstream version
2017-05-06T18:18:40Z paule32: beach: you right
2017-05-06T18:18:48Z Bike: mazoe: i don't use https drakma though.
2017-05-06T18:18:50Z paule32: something wrong with my cache
2017-05-06T18:19:18Z Bike: let me try it and see what happens.
2017-05-06T18:19:33Z mazoe: Bike: yep ok. Well, if you have a moment, this doesn’t work for me: “(drakma:http-request "https://google.com”)”
2017-05-06T18:20:17Z Bike: seems to work. i get html back, anyway.
2017-05-06T18:20:24Z mazoe: awesome
2017-05-06T18:20:26Z mazoe: thanks!
2017-05-06T18:20:31Z mazoe: so it’s my setup
2017-05-06T18:20:39Z mazoe: which version of sbcl are you on?
2017-05-06T18:20:53Z Bike: that was 1.3.15
2017-05-06T18:21:14Z Bike: plot twist, so is arch's, though the upstream one is a couple commits ahead
2017-05-06T18:21:16Z paule32: sorry beach
2017-05-06T18:21:23Z mazoe: Bike: hmm, yep I’m on 1.3.15 ><
2017-05-06T18:21:33Z mazoe: hah ok
2017-05-06T18:21:34Z Bike: i get html from the arch install as well.
2017-05-06T18:21:40Z mazoe: ah
2017-05-06T18:21:59Z Bike: perhaps you have a version problem with openSSL (which is what CL+SSL uses, I think?)
2017-05-06T18:22:08Z mazoe: mmm yep possibly
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2017-05-06T18:23:09Z mazoe: strange
2017-05-06T18:23:20Z pjb: nyef: I'm not sure paule32 is here to learn lisp, instead of writing the program his teacher asked him to write.
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2017-05-06T18:29:22Z paule32: lisp execute is from right to left? or bottom to top?
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2017-05-06T18:32:29Z Bike: boustrophedon
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2017-05-06T18:49:17Z mazoe: Bike: FYI, downgrading openssl (1.1.0.e-1 => 1.0.2.k-1) fixed it
2017-05-06T18:51:19Z mazoe: any sbcl maintainers on here? :D
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2017-05-06T18:51:53Z Bike: i have both "openssl" and "openssl-1.0" packages installed, i bet this is something annoying
2017-05-06T18:52:06Z Bike: doesn't seem like it has anything to do with sbcl
2017-05-06T18:52:56Z mazoe: ah
2017-05-06T18:52:58Z mazoe: lol
2017-05-06T18:53:04Z mazoe: right
2017-05-06T18:53:11Z Bike: i guess cl+ssl uses an old abi
2017-05-06T18:53:28Z mazoe: mhmm
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2017-05-06T18:53:58Z Bike: actually, do you know when your cl+ssl is from? i see stuff for 1.1
2017-05-06T18:54:34Z zeez: hi
2017-05-06T18:54:50Z SAL9000: Are there any libraries for programmatic access to the statistics output by TIME?
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2017-05-06T18:55:23Z Bike: time the cl macro? the information is implementation-defined
2017-05-06T18:55:29Z Bike: i think there are some portable metering libraries though
2017-05-06T18:55:50Z SAL9000: I want to profile some code, but I can't use the SBCL profiler since almost all the runtime is deep in nested LAMBDAs
2017-05-06T18:56:18Z Bike: mazoe: my running sbcl loaded 1.0. don't think i understand how cl+ssl decides.
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2017-05-06T18:58:13Z mazoe: Bike: how can I get at the cl+ssl version?
2017-05-06T18:59:16Z mazoe: there’s no asdf version
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2017-05-06T19:00:02Z mazoe: ah
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2017-05-06T19:01:40Z mazoe: cl+ssl-20170403-git
2017-05-06T19:02:12Z SAL9000: Bike: Can you name any of those metering libraries? I'm having trouble finding suitable keywords for Google.
2017-05-06T19:03:07Z mazoe: which has the openssl-1.1 system
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2017-05-06T19:09:23Z edgar-rft: SAL9000: <http://www.cliki.net/site/search?query=metering>
2017-05-06T19:10:13Z Bike: mazoe: same as mine. hum.
2017-05-06T19:10:24Z Bike: mazoe: well, i guess try installing openssl-1.0 from extra?
2017-05-06T19:10:48Z mazoe: Bike: yep. Except… https://www.reddit.com/r/archlinux/comments/67nno6/i_did_something_stupid/
2017-05-06T19:10:51Z Bike: SAL9000: from that list you might want jackdaniels's https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/dkochmanski/metering
2017-05-06T19:10:57Z mazoe: yayyyyruhghhh
2017-05-06T19:11:21Z Bike: this is exactly why i administrate my system as dumbly as possible
2017-05-06T19:11:35Z mazoe: hah (Y)
2017-05-06T19:11:51Z SAL9000: edgar-rft, Bike: Thanks!
2017-05-06T19:12:14Z mazoe: luckily this is an easy wipe vps image and reinstall job
2017-05-06T19:12:37Z mazoe: Bike: thanks for looking into it
2017-05-06T19:12:41Z Bike: np
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