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2017-05-04T03:32:48Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-05-04T03:32:58Z beach: oleo: How did you install (first) Climacs?
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2017-05-04T03:33:27Z beach: p_l: Was it a joke about the recent Multics software release?
2017-05-04T03:33:56Z beach: oleo: For Second Climacs, you need to wait at least a few more months.
2017-05-04T03:34:58Z beach: oleo: I am trying to solve a more general problem first, namely parsing lambda lists in the "Concrete Syntax Tree" library.  I am doing the CST library first, because it is going to be used both by SICL/Cleavir and by Second Climacs.
2017-05-04T03:36:12Z beach: oleo: I don't see the relation between some foreign library and (first) Climacs.  Am I misunderstanding something?
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2017-05-04T08:28:25Z phoe: http://paste.lisp.org/display/345777 <- OPEN :IF-EXISTS NIL seems to be broken on SBCL 1.3.15 on Windows for me, can anyone confirm?
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2017-05-04T08:30:35Z scymtym: phoe: i think this has been fixed in 1.3.16, so yes
2017-05-04T08:30:47Z jackdaniel: http://sbcl.org/news.html#1.3.16
2017-05-04T08:30:59Z jackdaniel: right, what scymtym said :)
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2017-05-04T08:32:47Z phoe: scymtym: https://i.imgtc.com/2Qip10p.png
2017-05-04T08:32:48Z phoe: ;_;
2017-05-04T08:33:11Z phoe: Damn it, I don't have a C building environment on Windows.
2017-05-04T08:33:46Z jackdaniel: msys2 is your friend (:
2017-05-04T08:34:12Z phoe: jackdaniel: I have msys2 installed, but it does not come with a compiler.
2017-05-04T08:34:41Z phoe: ...oh wait, there's a pacman inside it
2017-05-04T08:36:14Z phoe: okay, let me set it up real quick
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2017-05-04T09:04:11Z phoe: jackdaniel: http://paste.lisp.org/display/345780
2017-05-04T09:04:32Z phoe: I'm missing this header file and it seems that it's missing intentionally from MSYS as it defines posix stuff.
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2017-05-04T09:42:04Z presiden: morning lisper o/
2017-05-04T09:42:22Z beach: Hello presiden.
2017-05-04T09:42:34Z presiden: \o
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2017-05-04T11:32:11Z bigos_: hi, I need help porting code from one project to another and make it fit into the new projects API
2017-05-04T11:32:42Z phoe: bigos_: tell me more
2017-05-04T11:32:47Z bigos_: I seem to miss some important part of the big picture
2017-05-04T11:33:11Z bigos_: https://github.com/gwkkwg/cl-containers/blob/master/dev/quad-tree.lisp
2017-05-04T11:33:30Z bigos_: has some direct methods that operate on quadtrees
2017-05-04T11:34:09Z bigos_: https://github.com/bigos/cl-data-structures/blob/1465fd5c57b50180d4bda38dc2be058878cb7d6e/question.org
2017-05-04T11:34:34Z phoe: bigos_: English is going to work better here
2017-05-04T11:34:36Z bigos_: the link lists the direct methods and the target projects api
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2017-05-04T11:35:05Z bigos_: The question translated to english is:
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2017-05-04T11:36:13Z phoe: bigos_: I need a description of the cl-data-structures API. Just function names are not enough.
2017-05-04T11:36:14Z bigos_: I do not understand how to fit in quadtree methods to your api. Only insert and size seem to fit. I need an example howit was done elswhere.
2017-05-04T11:36:31Z phoe: I need a well-defined protocol to help you here.
2017-05-04T11:36:52Z bigos_: https://github.com/sirherrbatka/cl-data-structures/blob/master/src/api/generics.lisp
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2017-05-04T11:37:30Z phoe: bigos_: uh, how do I check if an element is in a container with this API?
2017-05-04T11:37:45Z phoe: it seems to miss a pretty obvious find-element method
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2017-05-04T11:39:06Z bigos_: do you mean the target code needs to implement find-element?
2017-05-04T11:39:17Z phoe: no, your API needs to implement find-element
2017-05-04T11:39:27Z phoe: (IMHO)
2017-05-04T11:39:53Z phoe: because one of most basic questions for a given data structure is, does it contain an object that's equal to X
2017-05-04T11:40:07Z phoe: where "X" and "equal" depend on the kind of data structure, obviously
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2017-05-04T11:41:30Z bigos_: aha
2017-05-04T11:41:40Z phoe: shka: ^
2017-05-04T11:42:09Z ogamita: There's find-item.
2017-05-04T11:42:25Z ogamita: (defun find-element (c i) (find-item c i))
2017-05-04T11:42:34Z ogamita: or defmethod whatever…
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2017-05-04T11:55:29Z shka: phoe: use at
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2017-05-04T11:56:09Z shka: (at container location) -> values: element, found (boolean)
2017-05-04T11:56:21Z phoe: shka: I don't care about where it is
2017-05-04T11:56:26Z phoe: so I don't want to supply location
2017-05-04T11:56:33Z phoe: I want to know *if* it is there at al
2017-05-04T11:56:40Z shka: this is dictionary
2017-05-04T11:56:48Z phoe: what do you mean?
2017-05-04T11:57:04Z shka: i mean, it maps keys to values
2017-05-04T11:57:34Z phoe: sure thing - a dictionary should have a function that tells if a given value is present in it
2017-05-04T11:57:41Z shka: value or key?
2017-05-04T11:57:43Z phoe: that can be then implemented in an optimized enough way.
2017-05-04T11:57:54Z phoe: value or key, sounds like two functions
2017-05-04T11:58:16Z phoe: shka: are all of your data structures dictionaries?
2017-05-04T11:58:21Z shka: do you know any standard hashtable that has method that allows you to that?
2017-05-04T11:58:26Z shka: phoe: at this point, yes
2017-05-04T11:58:38Z phoe: shka: it should be cl-dictionaries then and not cl-data-structures
2017-05-04T11:58:47Z phoe: because there are data structures that are dictionaries
2017-05-04T11:58:50Z shka: phoe: *at-this-pooint*
2017-05-04T11:59:08Z phoe: shka: but you create your API as if it only concerned dictionaries
2017-05-04T11:59:16Z shka: where?
2017-05-04T11:59:25Z phoe: 13:56 < shka> (at container location) -> values: element, found (boolean)
2017-05-04T11:59:28Z phoe: 13:56 < shka> this is dictionary
2017-05-04T11:59:41Z shka: at is for sequences and dictionaries
2017-05-04T11:59:53Z shka: sets may have different api
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2017-05-04T12:00:28Z shka: but i would rather deliver one implementation with api that will be extended in the future than complete api without any implementation
2017-05-04T12:00:38Z shka: seriously, i don't see your point
2017-05-04T12:00:49Z phoe: okay - I want to have a predicate that answers me if a given element exists in the target data structure
2017-05-04T12:00:57Z phoe: which, in the degenerate case, turns into a O(n) search
2017-05-04T12:00:58Z shka: define element
2017-05-04T12:01:12Z phoe: but some data structures like ordered heaps make search less than O(n)
2017-05-04T12:01:25Z shka: ordered with what?
2017-05-04T12:01:29Z phoe: shka: an atomic unit that may be contained within a given data structure
2017-05-04T12:01:38Z phoe: shka: depends on the heap and what you put in it
2017-05-04T12:01:45Z shka: …
2017-05-04T12:02:22Z phoe: I can have a #'string< ordered heap that contains strings, sure thing
2017-05-04T12:02:35Z shka: phoe: whatever
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2017-05-04T12:02:53Z shka: bigos_: anyway, what is the problem with at, erase, size and rest?
2017-05-04T12:03:01Z phoe shrugs
2017-05-04T12:03:21Z phoe: blah, s/heap/tree/
2017-05-04T12:03:22Z shka: i'm under impression that current api should be mostly enough
2017-05-04T12:03:26Z bigos_: shka: one moment
2017-05-04T12:03:48Z shka: bigos_: we may or may not miss NEAR GF
2017-05-04T12:05:23Z bigos_: shka:cl-containers has find-item and make-node-for-container
2017-05-04T12:05:30Z shka: right
2017-05-04T12:05:51Z shka: we have at that does mostly same thing as find-item
2017-05-04T12:06:12Z shka: and make-node-for-container does not look like API method
2017-05-04T12:06:24Z bigos_: cl-data-structures doesn't seem to have indication how to implement these methods
2017-05-04T12:06:43Z shka: uh, we have docstrings…
2017-05-04T12:06:46Z shka: anyway
2017-05-04T12:06:57Z shka: let's start with at ok?
2017-05-04T12:07:16Z bigos_: I guess I could just add such methods myself so quadtree would respond to additional methods not mantioned in the original api file
2017-05-04T12:07:35Z shka: at is supposed accept container and location and return item that is in this location
2017-05-04T12:07:49Z shka: i fail to see how is that different from find-item, really
2017-05-04T12:08:04Z phoe: shka: because I ignore the location
2017-05-04T12:08:06Z bigos_: then theres a question where the code should go some could be shared with other tree structures
2017-05-04T12:08:08Z phoe: I don't have to specify the location
2017-05-04T12:08:24Z shka: phoe: in quadtree?!
2017-05-04T12:08:24Z phoe: the method automatically searches the locations that are applicable for a given data structure
2017-05-04T12:08:38Z phoe: and in the worse case just searches them all
2017-05-04T12:08:38Z shka: phoe: do you actually know the context or just making noise?
2017-05-04T12:08:52Z bigos_: so i wonder to what extent the existing project is complete and if I can make such changes to the api
2017-05-04T12:09:39Z shka: bigos_: well, api is certainly not finished and will be extended
2017-05-04T12:10:00Z shka: however, i imagine that you are making dictionary implementation based on quad tree so it should be sufficiant
2017-05-04T12:10:41Z phoe: shka: from what I see, you're trying to define an API for a library that "is a portable collection of data structures for CL"
2017-05-04T12:11:04Z shka: you don't need to expose generic api to manipulate all kinds of trees, just your implementation that maps some coordinates into values
2017-05-04T12:11:31Z shka: quadtree is okish for that, but later we should extend api for near location search
2017-05-04T12:12:11Z phoe: and, at least for the data structures that I am using, a function that responds with T/NIL whether an element is present anywhere in the data structure is a basic
2017-05-04T12:12:18Z shka: phoe: we are discussing how to implement api for quadtree dictionary at this moment and you are not contributing
2017-05-04T12:12:22Z shka: this is not set
2017-05-04T12:12:29Z phoe: shka: okay.
2017-05-04T12:13:34Z shka: bigos_: what i suggest is to implement it in the simplest possible way
2017-05-04T12:14:05Z shka: quadtrees are quite special beasts and you won't want to expand it to octaltrees and stuff
2017-05-04T12:14:18Z shka: because that is just inefficient
2017-05-04T12:14:26Z shka: so for now just implement following method
2017-05-04T12:14:28Z shka: s
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2017-05-04T12:15:08Z shka: at -> return item at coordinates (coordinates should be t, for tests array of size = 2 will be ok)
2017-05-04T12:15:23Z shka: insert -> insert item at coordinates, replace if exists
2017-05-04T12:15:42Z shka: add -> insert item at coordinates if place is not occupied
2017-05-04T12:16:08Z shka: update -> replace item at coordinates, do nothing otherwise
2017-05-04T12:16:36Z shka: erase -> you know the drill
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2017-05-04T12:17:22Z shka: in the future we will want to expand api for storing multiple items under same coordinates, searching for nearest to coordinates and stuff, but for now this is enough
2017-05-04T12:17:27Z shka: we have to start somewhere
2017-05-04T12:17:41Z shka: bigos_: does that answers your question?
2017-05-04T12:18:40Z shka: afk, foooooooood
2017-05-04T12:19:05Z bigos_: need to think first, i was watching a youtube video, i will read it now and reply in 5-10 minutes
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2017-05-04T12:29:34Z bigos_: shka: my first impression
2017-05-04T12:29:40Z bigos_: I worry too much
2017-05-04T12:29:48Z bigos_: you said before:
2017-05-04T12:30:02Z bigos_:  but i would rather deliver one implementation with api that will be extended in the future than complete api without any implementation
2017-05-04T12:30:52Z bigos_: so perhaps I should stop worrying just carry on with coding and we will make any necessary corrections later
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2017-05-04T12:33:54Z bigos_: anther thing, I'm under impression that I misunderstood the scope of the project
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2017-05-04T12:40:19Z bigos_: shka: I have read the discussion to the end and i definitely anwers my question.
2017-05-04T12:41:11Z bigos_: I will implement the methods you have suggested
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2017-05-04T12:43:21Z oleo: unknown CFFI type :SIZET
2017-05-04T12:45:54Z zulu_inuoe: Isn't it supposed to be size-t ?
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2017-05-04T12:47:38Z oleo: no idea
2017-05-04T12:48:03Z oleo: after i retried reloading on and on i got to the repl somehow.....
2017-05-04T12:48:15Z oleo: not sure what it skipped
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2017-05-04T12:51:47Z shka: bigos_: great! As I said just keep it basic for now.
2017-05-04T12:52:06Z shka: you will have better understanding of the problem later on
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2017-05-04T13:01:46Z Grue``: (format nil "~[ChoiceA~;ChoiceB~:;Default~]" nil) => error in FORMAT: The argument to ~[ is not an integer: NIL
2017-05-04T13:02:03Z Grue``: is the argument being integer actually required by the spec anywhere?
2017-05-04T13:02:23Z Grue``: IMO default clause should be printed instead of throwing an error
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2017-05-04T13:07:01Z splittist: Grue``: I don't think the spec requires that, from a quick reading. It does refer to the argth clause.
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2017-05-04T13:21:56Z phoe: How can I tell CCL on Windows to load a new ASDF from a single .lisp file? Just LOADing causes name conflicts.
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2017-05-04T13:37:16Z phoe: Okay, I got it.
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2017-05-04T13:48:50Z phoe: I have an issue with CCL on Windows. ASDF 3.2.0's LAUNCH-PROGRAM launches the program in the background, with the first window being invisible.
2017-05-04T13:49:02Z phoe: Like, the first window it spawns - it just disappears.
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2017-05-04T13:52:56Z Grue``: have you tried sbcl on windows? it could be a problem with w/e graphical library you're using
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2017-05-04T13:56:08Z phoe: No. Qt is running fine.
2017-05-04T13:56:19Z phoe: Actually, CCL:RUN-PROGRAM seems to be a culprit here.
2017-05-04T13:57:25Z beach: minion: Memo for holycow: OpenDoc does not seem to be the kind of documentation system I am thinking of.  Perhaps this embryonic draft can give you a better idea of what I am aiming for: http://metamodular.com/doclang-requirements.pdf
2017-05-04T13:57:25Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell holycow when he/she/it next speaks.
2017-05-04T13:57:28Z beach: minion: Memo for holycow: Oh, and please disregard the hastily chosen and temporary name of the system.
2017-05-04T13:57:28Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell holycow when he/she/it next speaks.
2017-05-04T13:59:15Z phoe: I actually had the exact same issue when I built on SBCL under Wine.
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2017-05-04T14:13:26Z phoe: Grue``: it's complicated.
2017-05-04T14:13:31Z phoe: The first window is hidden.
2017-05-04T14:13:36Z phoe: The rest spawn fine.
2017-05-04T14:13:52Z phoe: But the first - it's as if it did not show up at all.
2017-05-04T14:15:43Z flip214: phoe: the first window, with the same binary?
2017-05-04T14:15:57Z flip214: there's some distinction between console and GUI applications.
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2017-05-04T14:16:03Z phoe: flip214: I want to launch Furcadia.exe
2017-05-04T14:16:10Z phoe: when I launch it normally from Windows Explorer, works
2017-05-04T14:16:17Z phoe: when I launch it through SBCL, works
2017-05-04T14:16:23Z phoe: when I launch it through CCL, invisible
2017-05-04T14:16:41Z phoe: when I launch it on SBCL/Wine, invisible
2017-05-04T14:17:13Z flip214: phoe: what happens if you run "cmd.exe /c <commandline>" instead?
2017-05-04T14:17:33Z phoe: lemme try
2017-05-04T14:18:24Z flip214: phoe: https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ms686331(v=vs.85).aspx
2017-05-04T14:18:47Z flip214: wShowWindow: For GUI processes, the first time ShowWindow is called, its nCmdShow parameter is ignored wShowWindow specifies the default value. In subsequent calls to ShowWindow, the wShowWindow member is used if the nCmdShow parameter of ShowWindow is set to SW_SHOWDEFAULT.
2017-05-04T14:18:55Z flip214: and similar "nice" details of all that...
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2017-05-04T14:19:26Z flip214: "it's complicated"
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2017-05-04T14:20:54Z phoe: flip214: what the fuck is this
2017-05-04T14:21:06Z flip214: you don't even want to know.
2017-05-04T14:21:35Z flip214: is it visible via cmd.exe?
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2017-05-04T14:22:55Z phoe: I'm trying to escape the God damn slashes
2017-05-04T14:23:03Z phoe: and I don't know which slashes I should escape God damn where
2017-05-04T14:23:13Z flip214: phoe: don't try.
2017-05-04T14:23:16Z phoe: CMD.exe and its freaking backslashes
2017-05-04T14:23:19Z flip214: write a batch file, and run that via cmd.exe
2017-05-04T14:23:38Z flip214: what's the command you want to run?
2017-05-04T14:23:51Z flip214: (bbl from the train)
2017-05-04T14:23:57Z phoe: C:\Furcadia\Furcadia.exe
2017-05-04T14:27:10Z phoe: flip214: okay, got it
2017-05-04T14:27:12Z phoe: and CMD does work
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2017-05-04T14:32:55Z velo-alien: I'm having a strange problem with looping in SBCL: I'm getting the message "unknown LOOP keyword: FROM"
2017-05-04T14:33:54Z velo-alien: even in simple test code like (loop for i in '(1 2 3 4) from 1 do (write-to-string i))
2017-05-04T14:34:25Z beach: velo-alien: for i from 1
2017-05-04T14:34:51Z beach: er, what is the purpose of your `from 1' clause?
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2017-05-04T14:35:46Z velo-alien: my actual code is parsing a list of lists where the first list is a header / description of the others. I want to avoid parsing this first sub-list in my program.
2017-05-04T14:36:50Z beach: velo-alien: Just do for i in (cdr list) then.
2017-05-04T14:37:21Z velo-alien: ..... turns out I *should* have gotten coffee this morning.
2017-05-04T14:37:23Z velo-alien: thanks.
2017-05-04T14:37:32Z beach: Sure.
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2017-05-04T14:41:39Z flip214: phoe: well done!
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2017-05-04T14:42:00Z flip214: should be the easiest workaround for this flag (and perhaps others ;)
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2017-05-04T14:53:55Z phoe: haha
2017-05-04T14:54:08Z phoe: now I am trying to work around SBCL and CCL returning truenames with slashes instead of backslashes
2017-05-04T14:54:11Z phoe: it confuses CMD
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2017-05-04T14:56:34Z phoe: argh
2017-05-04T14:56:43Z phoe: flip214: no, it's not easy
2017-05-04T14:56:48Z phoe: I literally need to hack around
2017-05-04T14:57:10Z phoe: UIOP does not seem to provide a tool to fix this behaviour
2017-05-04T14:57:59Z phoe: even on Windows, SBCL and CCL return truenames which contain slashes and not backslashes
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2017-05-04T14:58:22Z phoe: while I support this for the sake of consistency, it has really nasty (for me right now) consequences
2017-05-04T14:58:25Z phoe: arrrrgh
2017-05-04T14:59:12Z flip214: phoe: try quotes around the paths with slashes
2017-05-04T14:59:26Z jackdaniel: native-namestring is for that I think
2017-05-04T14:59:32Z flip214: as in "c:/program files/..."
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2017-05-04T14:59:34Z jackdaniel: check doc for extension
2017-05-04T14:59:40Z jackdaniel: in documentaitons
2017-05-04T14:59:41Z phoe: ...
2017-05-04T14:59:44Z phoe: cmd /c start "C:/Furcadia/Furcadia.exe"
2017-05-04T14:59:48Z phoe: this... spawns another cmd
2017-05-04T15:00:02Z phoe: jackdaniel: native-namestring?
2017-05-04T15:00:07Z phoe: where exactly should I check?
2017-05-04T15:00:14Z phoe: in SBCL? CCL? UIOP? ASDF?
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2017-05-04T15:03:04Z flip214: well, «cmd.exe /c start "c:/windows/system32/cmd.exe"» works as expected for me
2017-05-04T15:03:19Z flip214: ah, but with explorer.exe it doesn't
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2017-05-04T15:05:45Z flip214: phoe: export some environment variable for the path...
2017-05-04T15:06:01Z flip214: and use "%VARIABLE%\program.exe" to call it, then?
2017-05-04T15:06:11Z flip214: this works for me even if the VARIABLE has forward slashes
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2017-05-04T15:06:49Z flip214: but yeah, using native strings instead might make sense.
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2017-05-04T15:09:42Z phoe: GODS
2017-05-04T15:09:45Z phoe: I think I got it.
2017-05-04T15:10:17Z phoe: Windows *IS* the most idiotic operating system I have seen.
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2017-05-04T15:11:09Z phoe bbl
2017-05-04T15:11:11Z phoe: I need a break
2017-05-04T15:11:31Z beach: phoe: I can tell you have not seen EXEC 8.
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2017-05-04T15:22:20Z shka: beach: oooooh is it story time? :D
2017-05-04T15:25:03Z beach: Nah, old history.  It is just that I used computers somewhat earlier than most people here.  This one I used my first year at the university, in 1975.
2017-05-04T15:28:48Z ogamita: What are you saying? It combined the best features of the earlier operating systems!
2017-05-04T15:29:03Z ogamita: EXEC 8 was one of the first commercially successful multiprocessing operating systems! :-)
2017-05-04T15:29:06Z beach: I believe so, yes. :)
2017-05-04T15:30:40Z ogamita: The system was fully "reentrant" (thread safe)!
2017-05-04T15:31:02Z beach: You clearly know more than I do about it.
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2017-05-04T15:31:35Z ogamita: Its wikipedia page seems quite positive about it! :-)
2017-05-04T15:31:40Z ogamita: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OS_2200#Exec_8
2017-05-04T15:32:09Z ogamita: What bad remembrance of it do you have?
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2017-05-04T15:33:13Z beach: The job-control language, mainly.
2017-05-04T15:34:09Z ogamita: It can't be worse than JCL.
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2017-05-04T15:35:45Z p_l: It's not hard to be worse than JCL. It was surprisingly good, when one considers the requirements and limitations...
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2017-05-04T15:37:31Z beach: p_l: Speaking of which, what was that about the Multics release?
2017-05-04T15:37:56Z p_l: beach: some people are actually updating Multics these days - latest release of Multics is from 2017
2017-05-04T15:38:07Z beach: Where did you see that?
2017-05-04T15:38:22Z beach: I suppose that means that it must be running somewhere.
2017-05-04T15:39:32Z p_l: beach: there's a portable DPS8 emulator that is now capable of running AFAIK complete multics
2017-05-04T15:39:44Z beach: Wow.
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2017-05-04T15:40:24Z p_l: managed to boot it
2017-05-04T15:40:32Z beach: Multics ran on GE645, a modified 635 to allow for, I believe, demand paging.
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2017-05-04T15:41:06Z p_l: beach: from what I read, 645 was vastly different from 635, but modified 635 were used for early developement before availability of 645
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2017-05-04T15:44:43Z p_l: the simulator is for the later Honeywell 6180, which was I think the last model to run multics
2017-05-04T15:45:02Z beach: I am reading about it.  Very interesting.
2017-05-04T15:46:34Z p_l: anyway, with some fixes to the "quickstart" disk+tape image, I managed to get it running
2017-05-04T15:46:48Z beach: Impressive!
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2017-05-04T15:47:53Z p_l: few years ago when multics source surfaced I didn't expect that it will reach "working" state
2017-05-04T15:48:24Z beach: Yeah, that's quite a feat.
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2017-05-04T15:50:02Z shrdlu68: How the hell do you edit cliki?
2017-05-04T15:50:43Z shrdlu68: It gives me a blank slate when I click "edit", and a preview window.
2017-05-04T15:51:08Z shrdlu68: Well where is the rest of the stuff?
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2017-05-04T15:55:07Z shrdlu68: It works as expected in other pages.
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2017-05-04T16:04:48Z beach: p_l: They are not making it easy.  I need to do this when I have a longer time slot available.
2017-05-04T16:05:32Z p_l: beach: I went with pre-built image, the quickstart files from sourceforge, and I have a copy of working init file for the emulator
2017-05-04T16:05:45Z Grue``: phoe: you probably want (sb-ext:native-namestring pathname) ;; not sure if uiop has a wrapper for it
2017-05-04T16:05:59Z beach: p_l: I can't even find the pre-built image for the dps8 emulator.
2017-05-04T16:06:38Z beach: "Build the emulator (dps8) from source or find an executable ..."
2017-05-04T16:07:03Z p_l: https://sourceforge.net/projects/dps8m/files/Release%201.0/
2017-05-04T16:07:38Z p_l: https://sourceforge.net/projects/dps8m/files/latest/download?source=files <--- this is the quickstart set I used (QuickStart_MR12.6e.zip)
2017-05-04T16:08:02Z beach: I used the 6f, but there was no dps8 executable in there.
2017-05-04T16:09:21Z p_l: the first link has prebuilt executables
2017-05-04T16:10:06Z beach: I guess it's the Linux_dps8.tgz.
2017-05-04T16:10:06Z beach: they could have mentioned that.
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2017-05-04T16:10:36Z beach: This happens to me every time I try to use the web.
2017-05-04T16:11:09Z p_l: beach: unpack dps8m into same directory as the MR12.6e release, download this http://sprunge.us/hFRM and save as boot.ini, then run ./dps8m boot.ini
2017-05-04T16:11:31Z beach: I thought you said that the release included the dps8.
2017-05-04T16:12:36Z beach: I'll try to investigate this by myself.  I'll ask you at some later point if I need to.  This is so frustrating.
2017-05-04T16:12:59Z p_l: http://swenson.org/multics_wiki/index.php?title=Getting_Started#Using_the_Multics_QuickStart <--- from then on, the instructions here are what I did
2017-05-04T16:13:03Z p_l: it is a bit frustrating, yes
2017-05-04T16:13:44Z p_l: for me it's a bit harder because multics is a system I had absolutely no idea about
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2017-05-04T16:16:45Z p_l: other than skewed history from pov of unix etc.
2017-05-04T16:17:58Z p_l: annoyingly the quickstart is not exactly in line with current emulator version, thys the link to fixed boot.ini
2017-05-04T16:18:12Z p_l: from what I understood, the install contains most common tools including maclisp
2017-05-04T16:19:28Z beach: p_l: Got it working.  It boots.  Managed to start emacs and edit a file.
2017-05-04T16:19:56Z beach: Yes, it must contain Maclisp because Emacs works.
2017-05-04T16:20:04Z beach: Very very impressive.
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2017-05-04T16:24:23Z loke___: p_l: Do you have an imporived instruction on how to get it to work?
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2017-05-04T16:25:19Z p_l: loke___: not written down, but following the official quickstart except using boot.ini from http://sprunge.us/hFRM (launch emulator with it as argument) will get you there
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2017-05-04T16:25:39Z loke___: p_l: Tahnks
2017-05-04T16:25:40Z p_l: the quickstart boot ini is for older version of the emulator which causes error at boot
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2017-05-04T16:26:03Z p_l: the one I uploaded is scribbed from mailing list
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2017-05-04T16:28:45Z p_l: compared to all the hackery around OpenGenera, they are quite... simple
2017-05-04T16:28:54Z p_l: nyef: btw, you still interested in Ivory emulator?
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2017-05-04T16:31:40Z beach: People might want to know why Multics is relevant to #lisp.  First, Multics was the one of the first (the first?) operating systems written in a high-level language, in this case Multics PL/I, and the condition system of Multics PL/I was the model for the Common Lisp condition system.
2017-05-04T16:32:10Z beach: Second, Multics Emacs was the first Emacs written in Lisp.  Not Common Lisp of course, but Maclisp.
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2017-05-04T16:36:18Z nyef: p_l: Very possibly interested in an Ivory emulator. But currently focusing on other things.
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2017-05-04T16:39:38Z beach: More relations between Multics and #lisp: Multics did not have to be restarted in order to install an updated system, and many applications did not need to be restarted after updates either.  Unix took a huge step backward there.  I would like to remedy this problem with my LispOS proposal.
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2017-05-04T16:56:31Z dim: wow, yeah
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2017-05-04T17:36:12Z ecraven: is anyone building a DIY smartphone with lisp?
2017-05-04T17:36:20Z ecraven: something rpi based maybe?
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2017-05-04T17:38:07Z prole: does a lisp related mug exist?
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2017-05-04T17:40:00Z ecraven: google says: https://www.redbubble.com/shop/lisp+mugs
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2017-05-04T17:40:24Z prole: yeah
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2017-05-04T17:45:57Z dlowe: prole: https://www.zazzle.com/lisp_love_mug-168178156849228810
2017-05-04T17:46:12Z dlowe: disclaimer: I made the zazzle store
2017-05-04T17:46:39Z jackdaniel: do you ship to Poland? :-)
2017-05-04T17:47:15Z dlowe: Beats me. I can check.
2017-05-04T17:48:08Z jackdaniel: I'd buy such mug for sake of the nerdiness :-)
2017-05-04T17:48:29Z dlowe: jackdaniel: yes, you can
2017-05-04T17:48:57Z jackdaniel: cool
2017-05-04T17:49:06Z dlowe: I just supplied the image and get a 5% kickback. I mostly wanted the stuff for myself :D
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2017-05-04T18:02:48Z paule32: hello
2017-05-04T18:03:30Z paule32: i read in a string under the linux console
2017-05-04T18:03:35Z paule32: (setq txt (read-line)) (read-array txt)
2017-05-04T18:04:03Z paule32: the array, how can i access them, to convert the item to string?
2017-05-04T18:04:57Z attila_lendvai: paule32: if you do that 'txt' will become a global variable that you can access just by typing 'txt' anywhere (unless locally shadowed)
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2017-05-04T18:05:56Z shrdlu68: paule32: What's read-array do?
2017-05-04T18:06:41Z attila_lendvai: oh, it probably returns some value, so he'll probably need to store the result of the read-array call, too
2017-05-04T18:06:57Z paule32: (setf (aref my-array 0) 25)
2017-05-04T18:07:03Z paule32: like this
2017-05-04T18:07:23Z paule32: or
2017-05-04T18:07:29Z paule32: (setf (aref my-array 0) "sun")
2017-05-04T18:07:40Z shrdlu68: paule32: Could you paste your code on paste.lisp.org?
2017-05-04T18:10:00Z paule32: http://paste.lisp.org/display/345809
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2017-05-04T18:11:34Z shrdlu68: paule32: Unrelated: In lisp, you can pass a docstring to defun
2017-05-04T18:12:10Z shrdlu68: i.e (defun strcat (list)
2017-05-04T18:12:23Z shrdlu68:   "A non-recursive function that concatenates a list of strings."
2017-05-04T18:12:28Z shrdlu68: ...
2017-05-04T18:12:30Z shrdlu68: )
2017-05-04T18:13:43Z shrdlu68: paule32: read-line returns a string, not a list.
2017-05-04T18:13:48Z shrdlu68: clhs read-line
2017-05-04T18:13:49Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_lin.htm
2017-05-04T18:14:31Z shrdlu68: There is already a function to concatenate strings, you don't have to unless you want to.
2017-05-04T18:14:40Z shrdlu68: clhs concatenate
2017-05-04T18:14:40Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_concat.htm
2017-05-04T18:17:24Z shrdlu68: paule32: It seems to that you should be using let rather than global variables.
2017-05-04T18:18:18Z paule32: (setq txt (svref txt 2))
2017-05-04T18:18:18Z paule32: (format t txt)
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2017-05-04T18:19:09Z paule32: *** - SVREF: "sw wewe" not simple-vector
2017-05-04T18:19:27Z nyef: paule32: Use AREF instead of SVREF?
2017-05-04T18:21:15Z nyef: So, crazy syntax highlighting idea, for those who have stereoscopic displays: Use depth to push certain things forward or backwards in the visual field.
2017-05-04T18:21:31Z paule32: (setq txt (aref txt 3))
2017-05-04T18:21:42Z dlowe: nyef: yeah, I have to try that now.
2017-05-04T18:22:06Z paule32: *** - FORMAT: must be STRING, not #\a
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2017-05-04T18:22:17Z shrdlu68: paule32: Lernen Sie Lisp? Hier ist ein freie Buch: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/
2017-05-04T18:22:22Z dlowe: nyef: you could use a 3d projection to do that, somewhat
2017-05-04T18:23:00Z shrdlu68 's German is a shame to all of mankind.
2017-05-04T18:23:11Z Bike: paule32: strings are made of characters. #\a is a character, not a string. you can use subseq if you want substrings.
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2017-05-04T18:24:51Z edgar-rft: shrdlu68: the only mistake was "freie" instead of "freies", the rest was absolutely okay.
2017-05-04T18:25:08Z shrdlu68: Diese Buch ist auch hilflich: http://landoflisp.com/
2017-05-04T18:25:15Z edgar-rft: :-)
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2017-05-04T18:26:02Z shrdlu68: Eh, could never get declesions right.
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2017-05-04T18:28:05Z shrdlu68: edgar-rft: Aber warum "freies"?
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2017-05-04T18:31:17Z shrdlu68 considers writing a Lisp book in his native tongue and thereby make history.
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2017-05-04T18:32:13Z edgar-rft: shrdlu68: the endig of an adjective dependens on the related substantive and there are many "special cases" with no really meaningful explanation other than "history" or similar nonsense. For kids at school it's a real horror to learn and even german adults often have problems with it. In other words, I also have no really good explanation on store.
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2017-05-04T18:33:49Z paule32: danke jungs
2017-05-04T18:34:01Z shrdlu68: Hehe, I've noted that German adults can get very bewildered about German grammar because they give it very little thought and it's all very automatic.
2017-05-04T18:34:11Z paule32:   (setq txt (read-line))
2017-05-04T18:34:11Z paule32:   (setq txt (nth 0 (list (txt))))
2017-05-04T18:34:40Z edgar-rft: shrdlu68: I think that's absolutely true. :-)
2017-05-04T18:35:59Z edgar-rft: paule32: what is (setq txt (nth 0 (list (txt)))) intended to do?
2017-05-04T18:36:28Z paule32: i would save string word
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2017-05-04T18:37:00Z shrdlu68: paule32: Without even going very far, there's a mistake: (txt)
2017-05-04T18:37:33Z shrdlu68: txt is a variable, not a function. When you do (txt), you're trying to call a function called txt.
2017-05-04T18:38:18Z edgar-rft: paule32: for example, you want the "Hello" from a string "Hello world" ?
2017-05-04T18:38:26Z paule32: yes
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2017-05-04T18:40:50Z PSEUDO_SUE: (split-sequence:split-sequence #\space txt)
2017-05-04T18:41:02Z PSEUDO_SUE: will split the string into words (space-delimited)
2017-05-04T18:41:09Z PSEUDO_SUE: and that'll give you your list.
2017-05-04T18:41:26Z PSEUDO_SUE: you can then use (nth 0 (split-sequence:split-sequence #\space txt))
2017-05-04T18:41:33Z PSEUDO_SUE: to grab the first element (or just car)
2017-05-04T18:42:24Z shrdlu68: PSEUDO_SUE: paule32 appears to be an absolute beginner. Will likely try to call split-sequence without loading it first.
2017-05-04T18:42:54Z PSEUDO_SUE: ah, ok, i think some implementations load it by default, as a sort of extension to the standard lib
2017-05-04T18:43:14Z PSEUDO_SUE: unless i've forgotten what's in my .sbclrc (init) file
2017-05-04T18:44:11Z edgar-rft: paule32: there is no built-in stuff for parsing words in strings. Usually one would use a regular expression library, but for simple cases this is overkill. Another possibility is using POSITION to search for the first whitespace character and then extract the subsequence from the first character in the string up to the first whiltespace character (like SPLIT-SEQUENCE does).
2017-05-04T18:44:25Z shrdlu68: paule32: http://cl-cookbook.sourceforge.net/strings.html
2017-05-04T18:45:22Z PSEUDO_SUE: that's a good solution.
2017-05-04T18:45:51Z PSEUDO_SUE: (defun split-string (char str) (subseq str 0 (position char str))) is a quick and dirty string splitter that you can build using just the standard functions
2017-05-04T18:46:14Z PSEUDO_SUE: well, a first-word-splitter-offer
2017-05-04T18:46:19Z paule32:   (format T "Bitte stellen Sie ihre Frage:~%")
2017-05-04T18:46:19Z paule32:   (setq (txt (read-line))
2017-05-04T18:46:19Z paule32:   (format t txt))
2017-05-04T18:47:09Z shrdlu68: Here is a simple split-string function: http://paste.lisp.org/+7ETU
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2017-05-04T18:47:35Z edgar-rft: paule32: (setq txt (read-line)) works better, the rest is okay :-)
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2017-05-04T18:49:59Z paule32: the problem:
2017-05-04T18:50:12Z paule32: read-line and access it to txt
2017-05-04T18:50:17Z paule32: format txt
2017-05-04T18:50:26Z paule32: because: the scope
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2017-05-04T18:53:48Z ealfonso: I want to figure out how to create a tcp connection to a local server, without using google/stackoverflow. I've used (apropos "tcp"), (apropos "inet-socket"). Eventually I came to MAKE-INET-SOCKET, which says "Deprecated in favour of make-instance". I tried to find out what are the slots for inet-socket, but I forgot how to. Am I on the right track?
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2017-05-04T18:55:08Z Bike: without a library? i guess that works.
2017-05-04T18:55:28Z Bike: you can see the class from apropos, so i would do (describe 'sb-bsd-sockets:inet-socket). it even has documentation
2017-05-04T18:56:56Z paule32:   (setq txt (read-line (format t txt))
2017-05-04T18:57:15Z Bike: paule32: you should really read a book. you are missing fundamentals
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2017-05-04T18:59:30Z ealfonso: ok. so I have a 'SB-BSD-SOCKETS:INET-SOCKET. but I don't know how to read/write from it, or to specify a host or a port. what would be the next describe or apropos you would do to find out?
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2017-05-04T19:00:41Z shrdlu68: paule32: If you're impatient and want to get coding immediately, start with a quick-n-dirty tutorial like https://www.tutorialspoint.com/lisp/index.htm
2017-05-04T19:00:56Z paule32: i looked
2017-05-04T19:01:07Z paule32: the problem is the scope understanding
2017-05-04T19:01:21Z paule32:   (setq txt "ssss")
2017-05-04T19:01:31Z paule32: only in braces
2017-05-04T19:01:37Z shrdlu68: paule32: You introduce lexical variables in lisp using let.
2017-05-04T19:02:00Z shrdlu68: (let (txt) ...access txt here...)
2017-05-04T19:02:07Z shrdlu68: or
2017-05-04T19:02:21Z paule32: why so many keywords, olala
2017-05-04T19:02:47Z shrdlu68: (let ((txt (read-line))) ...use txt...)
2017-05-04T19:03:34Z fourier: how to deserialize c-struct received from the socket ?
2017-05-04T19:03:53Z paule32: free(ptr); ?
2017-05-04T19:04:00Z edgar-rft: paule32: see <http://paste.lisp.org/display/345812>
2017-05-04T19:04:02Z fourier: trying userial but doesn't really work for me out of the box
2017-05-04T19:04:42Z shrdlu68: paule32: You mean parens? You get used to them, plus using a good text editor makes them practically invisible.
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2017-05-04T19:05:55Z shrdlu68: paule32: Try to use emacs. It has a learning curve, but you can get away with learning the bare basics like opening a file and saving it.
2017-05-04T19:06:35Z paule32: emacs has other syntax/symbols
2017-05-04T19:06:54Z fourier: shrdlu68: now he has 2 problems :)
2017-05-04T19:06:57Z paule32: so it is better to get on step by step with big clisp
2017-05-04T19:07:04Z paule32: haha
2017-05-04T19:07:27Z fourier: paule32: download lispworks personal and start coding straight away
2017-05-04T19:07:29Z shrdlu68: fourier: Only if he tries to learn all the bells and whistles of emacs.
2017-05-04T19:08:07Z fourier: shrdlu68: no. emacs has nontrivial key-bindings and obscure terminology. it is unattractive for newcomers right from the beginning
2017-05-04T19:09:27Z shrdlu68: fourier: Not necessarily. All he/she/it has to do is find a good beginner tutorial.
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2017-05-04T19:09:44Z akkad: so many OpenLisp users here...
2017-05-04T19:10:30Z shrdlu68: And I'll write one myself if there isn't one. I think emacs does itself a great disservice by being so forbidding to beginners.
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2017-05-04T19:11:08Z fourier: ... so he had to study 2 tutorials in the same time and memorize all the sh*t about "Meta", "Buffers", "yank", "kill-ring" etc
2017-05-04T19:11:45Z shrdlu68: Like I said, not necessarily.
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2017-05-04T19:12:32Z shrdlu68: Unless tutorials that use the more conventional "window" "copy" "paste" do not exist.
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2017-05-04T19:12:50Z fourier: shrdlu68: it will never change. emacs has a huge legacy and could not follow the modern trends in OS/UX etc. the learning curve unavoidably will be huge, even from the beginning.
2017-05-04T19:13:36Z fourier: it doesn't really matter - you still need to grasp the terminology otherwise you can't even find a help on "how to replace string in a file"
2017-05-04T19:15:22Z shrdlu68: fourier: You still have to learn how to replace strings on nano. But I get the point, the problem here is bigger.
2017-05-04T19:16:18Z shrdlu68: Which impacts (potential) entrant Lisp programmers because Lisp is really tied to Emacs.
2017-05-04T19:16:40Z jsjolen: Does anyone know if Marco Antoniotti hangs out on irc? Or if he has a mail address or something
2017-05-04T19:16:57Z akkad: menu items exist for most of those operations
2017-05-04T19:17:10Z fourier: not necessary - there is lispworks and a couple of half-functional plugins for popular editors. atom, sublime
2017-05-04T19:17:51Z fourier: if the new generation of lisp enthusiast could dedicate their time to improving these plugins, it could do wonders..
2017-05-04T19:18:22Z shrdlu68: Lispworks? That's even more fobidding. Suddenly someone is asking you for money and all you wanted was to learn some lisp.
2017-05-04T19:18:36Z jsjolen: shrdlu68:You could really just set up around 10-15 commands that gives you what you need to start out with Emacs (like split view of buffers, copy paste, redo undo) and that'd be enough for using SLIME
2017-05-04T19:18:37Z fourier: shrdlu68: you can use personal edition
2017-05-04T19:18:38Z shrdlu68 unless I'm wrong about lispworks being non-free.
2017-05-04T19:18:44Z p_l: fourier: a lot of even the newer generation can't stand atom or sublime (not to mention that they are much less capable when it comes to extensions)
2017-05-04T19:19:12Z p_l: shrdlu68: LW Personal works well enough for learning, I guess
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2017-05-04T19:19:18Z p_l: though I think ACL might be better option
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2017-05-04T19:19:27Z shrdlu68: jsjolen: I know, I pointed that out earlier.
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2017-05-04T19:20:03Z shrdlu68: fourier: That's not a proper solution. I used vim when I started out leaning lisp.
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2017-05-04T19:20:37Z shrdlu68: Not like vim doesn't have a learning curve, it's just what I had been using.
2017-05-04T19:20:45Z jsjolen: shrdlu68:Oh sorry, I missed that :-/
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2017-05-04T19:20:54Z fourier: p_l: there are quite a few plugins for both
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2017-05-04T19:21:36Z shrdlu68: But, both in vim and emacs, learning on a need-to-know basis got me through.
2017-05-04T19:22:11Z fourier: shrdlu68: me to and switched to emacs, had to learn it as well, because every freaking tutorial was about "fire up the emacs" spend 2 times more time than needed. but I had time and enough dedication back then
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2017-05-04T19:23:15Z shrdlu68: I don't need to know what Meta and kill-ring mean to start using emacs. I don't even need to edit ~/.emacs. These are just the products of a much more advanced programmer subculture.
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2017-05-04T19:25:46Z shrdlu68: I remember the frustration, though.
2017-05-04T19:26:38Z jurov: i dunno, when one starts using slime. for example i had teething problems to find/close various windows
2017-05-04T19:27:07Z shrdlu68: I started with emacs-gui, and even that was too confusing. Hit the wrong key and you're in some buffer asking you for your first-born daughter.
2017-05-04T19:27:13Z fourier: I guess any editor with syntax highlight and possibly colored parens could work if write in a text file with "#!sbcl --script " shebang
2017-05-04T19:28:48Z fourier: ...or text editor + CLISP repl with (load "myfile")
2017-05-04T19:31:16Z phoe: Grue``: thank you!
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2017-05-04T19:33:41Z ealfonso: any hints for how to proceed with apropos/describe for figuring out how to write to a TCP socket on a given host:port?
2017-05-04T19:33:59Z jasom: fourier: have you seen my geany plugin?  it's Linux only for now though
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2017-05-04T19:34:54Z jasom: fourier: indentation is the simplest thing that most editors are missing; out of the box it's basically just vim and emacs with a lisp indentation mode
2017-05-04T19:35:28Z fourier: but anyway just imagine any modern developer, coming from C# Visual Studio + resharper or from Java Jetbrains Idea or from node.js + atom, trying to play with clisp, and you tell him to start emacs with all its "buffers", "meta", ctrl+s insteaf of ctrl+f, ctrl-x-ctrl-s etc
2017-05-04T19:35:54Z fourier: jasom: no sorry i'm using emacs or lw for CL stuff :(
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2017-05-04T19:36:57Z jasom: fourier: http://i.imgur.com/yI8OjdV.png http://i.imgur.com/VKOHGJm.png http://i.imgur.com/o5LMFUt.png  <-- some screenshots; it sounds like what you are talking about
2017-05-04T19:36:58Z fourier: jasom: but I appreciate the effort, the more options to work with CL the better!
2017-05-04T19:37:41Z shrdlu68: fourier: But that's only a learning/pedagogic problem. Emacs in itself is not complicated at all, unless you're going for advanced features.
2017-05-04T19:37:43Z fourier: jasom: looks good
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2017-05-04T19:38:28Z shrdlu68: ctrl + f -> ctrl + x + f.
2017-05-04T19:38:30Z jurov: shrdlu68: if not going for advanced features. then why starting with emacs at all?
2017-05-04T19:38:36Z jasom: fourier: the alternative would be to rework emacs to have apple-style keybindings
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2017-05-04T19:38:51Z shrdlu68: ctrl + s -> ctrl + x + s
2017-05-04T19:39:38Z shrdlu68: jurov: Why not, because it's a text editor like any other, and is particularly good for lisp code.
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2017-05-04T19:40:33Z dlowe: ealfonso: you probably want to use the usocket library and follow the docs there
2017-05-04T19:40:59Z fourier: jasom: there was aquaemacs already
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2017-05-04T19:41:21Z jasom: fourier: right, but mac only and still has the chording keybindings used
2017-05-04T19:41:50Z fourier: jasom: but at least most typical bindings were from OSX
2017-05-04T19:41:51Z jasom: fourier: I was thinking the C-z undo C-c copy C-x cut C-v paste on windows/linux
2017-05-04T19:42:39Z fourier: jasom: you mean cua-mode should be turned on by default and be conflict-free ? :)
2017-05-04T19:43:05Z jasom: fourier: I though cua was shift-insert for paste?
2017-05-04T19:43:41Z White_Flame: ealfonso: I believe usocket is a commonly used library
2017-05-04T19:43:57Z fourier: jasom: i don't know, don't use it because of many conflicts
2017-05-04T19:44:01Z jasom looked it up; CUA defines shift+del is cut, ctrl+Ins is copy Shift+Ins paste
2017-05-04T19:44:03Z White_Flame: ealfonso: should be on quicklisp
2017-05-04T19:44:28Z jasom: Microsoft started with CUA, but swiched to Apple style bindings (substituting Ctrl for Command) at some point
2017-05-04T19:44:31Z fourier: but these keybindings are pretty common
2017-05-04T19:44:52Z jasom: Obviously slime would need to use a defferent leader
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2017-05-04T19:45:24Z jasom: Also "Escape" for cancel rather than C-g
2017-05-04T19:45:41Z fourier: ealfonso: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/32796877/how-to-use-usocket-to-create-a-connection-common-lisp#32807892
2017-05-04T19:46:16Z fourier: jasom: i rebind esc for cancel in my config, can't stand C-g but still use it from time to time
2017-05-04T19:46:45Z fourier: actually no, just to close temporary windows
2017-05-04T19:47:29Z jasom: so cua-mode is just misnamed, since it doesn't use the cua bindings
2017-05-04T19:48:07Z fourier: actually i like more spacemacs, the effort guys put in it are enormous
2017-05-04T19:48:18Z fourier: you have to be a vim guy though
2017-05-04T19:48:32Z jasom: I still prefer evil-mode to spacemacs
2017-05-04T19:49:00Z fourier: yes it is more for newcomers than for guys with configs containing tons of lines
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2017-05-04T19:50:00Z fourier: still back to the point - the functioning plugins for atom/sublime/visual studio/eclipse/intellij idea would be awesome to popularize CL. just give people a new language in their favorite environment
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2017-05-04T19:52:41Z prole: You should be reading all the standard in latin, be one year in the Himalaya temple, use emacs like a virtuoso pianist knowing hundreds of different key combinaison, to be able to taste the true heart of Common Lisp
2017-05-04T19:53:09Z p_l: meh
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2017-05-04T19:53:22Z p_l: though if anyone is interested, they can work on the atom-slime plugin
2017-05-04T19:53:41Z p_l: I don't have much need for replacing emacs with an EGACS-class editor, though
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2017-05-04T19:54:11Z jackdaniel: I agree with fourier - not everyone wants to use emacs
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2017-05-04T19:54:27Z jackdaniel: I think that jasom does a great job with his geany plugin
2017-05-04T19:55:04Z jasom: jackdaniel: I don't know that anybody has installed it yet though.
2017-05-04T19:55:10Z jasom would like some guinea pigs
2017-05-04T19:55:41Z jackdaniel: (as well as many other people - regarding editing support I think that climacs2 on which beach works for quite some time will beat swank)
2017-05-04T19:55:42Z paule32: http://paste.lisp.org/display/345815
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2017-05-04T19:56:25Z fourier: i guess there is not enough people interested in cl in general. those who knows cl good enough have already learned emacs, the newcomers don't know cl good enough to write/support plugins for their favorite environments. at the end there will be only bunch of old timers with their beloved emacs and a couple of young geeks (until they get a job at ms/google/fb etc or get girlfriends :) )
2017-05-04T19:57:01Z fourier: jackdaniel: how is the state of climacs2 ?
2017-05-04T19:57:37Z jackdaniel: fourier: it is still under development, but from what I can tell code analysis are very impressive
2017-05-04T19:57:49Z jackdaniel: you may want to ask beach about the details
2017-05-04T19:57:51Z paule32: jens@rechner ~/Projekte/ai/agent $ clisp test1.lisp
2017-05-04T19:57:51Z paule32: Bitte stellen Sie ihre Frage:
2017-05-04T19:57:51Z paule32: ss sss
2017-05-04T19:57:51Z paule32: *** - FORMAT: The control-string must be a string, not (SS SSS)
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2017-05-04T19:58:24Z jasom: is climacs2 the one that uses cluffer and clim3?
2017-05-04T19:58:27Z fourier: paule32: third argument to format function must be a string with formatting
2017-05-04T19:58:42Z nyef: fourier: Third or second?
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2017-05-04T19:59:01Z fourier: nyef: second of course, my mistake
2017-05-04T20:00:25Z shrdlu68: The problem is not emacs, the problem is a _learning_ emacs.
2017-05-04T20:01:17Z jackdaniel: shrdlu68: no, not everybody wants to work with emacs. I use it, but hate it. especially frame managament
2017-05-04T20:01:35Z shrdlu68: All a beginner needs is a simple table with conventional key bindings on one column, and their emacs equivalents on the other.
2017-05-04T20:01:38Z fourier: shrdlu68: emacs and learning emacs is not a problem, problem is to get people from their familiar environment and put them to the era of vt100 terminals in 2017
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2017-05-04T20:02:31Z jackdaniel: shrdlu68: as I have said - I use emacs every day and I know at least small subset of it - emacs *is* a problem (for me at least)
2017-05-04T20:02:48Z jackdaniel: fourier: yes
2017-05-04T20:03:09Z jackdaniel: for more details you may try it on github
2017-05-04T20:03:24Z jackdaniel: you may look for more details on github°
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2017-05-04T20:04:11Z otwieracz: What I especially love in emacs is it's ability to open new buffer in the worst window available *always*.
2017-05-04T20:04:36Z jackdaniel: ↑↑
2017-05-04T20:04:46Z otwieracz: That has to be some kind of AI.
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2017-05-04T20:05:20Z otwieracz: Emacs always know which buffer is most necessary to me at this moment – to open something in it's window.
2017-05-04T20:05:53Z otwieracz: „And by the way IMO your window setup was terrible, I've reset everything!”
2017-05-04T20:05:54Z warweasle: otwieracz: It can't just be chance. I mean, I pull up a man page and it halfs my screen and puts it in a new buffer. Which I have to move to. Because apparently I didn't want to look at what I just asked for.
2017-05-04T20:06:51Z otwieracz: warweasle: SLIME autocomplete always opens in most-important-buffer. :)
2017-05-04T20:06:53Z shrdlu68:  Strange. My personal installation of emacs seems to lack any rude behavioral tendencies.
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2017-05-04T20:07:01Z fourier: shackle (https://github.com/wasamasa/shackle) by wasamasa helps a little there
2017-05-04T20:07:02Z PSEUDO_SUE: spacemacs makes for a fairly decent emacs config. I use vim most of the time at work, for a handful of pretty trivial reasons, but I got to appreciating the key bindings much more than emacs' defaults. so it's nice to be able to carry those over while still being able to slime it up.
2017-05-04T20:07:21Z PSEUDO_SUE: autocomplete *never* fails to get right under my tits, though. disabling it is always a priority.
2017-05-04T20:07:28Z otwieracz: Every AC backend is commiting spectacular suicide everytime it finds some strange character in REPL.
2017-05-04T20:07:39Z otwieracz: Or just too big buffer.
2017-05-04T20:07:48Z PSEUDO_SUE: I really like the auto-suggestion thing that slime does in the mode line, though
2017-05-04T20:07:52Z otwieracz: Emacs is crap, but there's just no better replacement.
2017-05-04T20:08:10Z PSEUDO_SUE: "the worst editing environment, except for all the others"
2017-05-04T20:08:26Z otwieracz: I mean, it's really terrible
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2017-05-04T20:08:35Z otwieracz: but SLIME has E at the very end.
2017-05-04T20:09:01Z PSEUDO_SUE: I really love when an unmatched paren in the repl buffer causes the entire system to grind to screeching halt for fifteen minutes
2017-05-04T20:09:15Z otwieracz: ahaha
2017-05-04T20:09:16Z otwieracz: yes
2017-05-04T20:09:27Z otwieracz: looking for matchin paren on the entire hard disk
2017-05-04T20:10:04Z PSEUDO_SUE: the two reasons why i switched from emacs to vim at work, btw, were: (1) i was working from an apple work computer and sshing into a debian vm. somewhere along the line modifier keys became hopelessly jumbled, and i could meta a damn thing.
2017-05-04T20:10:06Z shrdlu68: I hardly ever use slime. It opens extra buffers that are distracting.
2017-05-04T20:10:14Z pillton: PSEUDO_SUE: 15 minutes? Give it a rest.
2017-05-04T20:10:39Z pillton: It instantaneously says [input not complete].
2017-05-04T20:10:42Z shrdlu68: I find it better to just M-x shell and launch a lisp, or M-x run-lisp.
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2017-05-04T20:10:59Z fourier: ac-slime hanged my emacs today practically consistantly (on windows + ccl)
2017-05-04T20:11:05Z PSEUDO_SUE: (2) my company has absurdly large directories. stupidly large. 90000 files in a single, flat repo. it's obscene. helm thought so too, to the point that it would aburptly go on strike if i tried to C-X C-F while in one of those dirs
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2017-05-04T20:11:53Z PSEUDO_SUE: otoh, things like C-c C-c for compiling a single sexp and sending it to the repl, or M-. to navigate definitions, are priceless.
2017-05-04T20:11:53Z shrdlu68: An simple editable repl.
2017-05-04T20:11:59Z otwieracz: guru meditating, emacs thinking
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2017-05-04T20:12:14Z Grue`: PSEUDO_SUE: ssh-ing is not the reason to swtich to vim, you can just use Emacs's TRAMP mode
2017-05-04T20:12:21Z PSEUDO_SUE: pillton: most of the time, yeah. but about 1% of the time, no
2017-05-04T20:12:24Z PSEUDO_SUE: yeah, tramp's cool
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2017-05-04T20:12:49Z PSEUDO_SUE: but i'd just end up using ansi-term to cope with the kind of massive text outputs i'd see regularly there, and in the end vim + tmux was just a nicer fit
2017-05-04T20:13:01Z PSEUDO_SUE: and as much as i love emacs, vim has *far* superior ergonomics
2017-05-04T20:13:06Z otwieracz: For me it turned out that TRAMP was useful only to show it to friend – „look how cool it is!”
2017-05-04T20:13:10Z PSEUDO_SUE: when in emacs now, i use emacs mode
2017-05-04T20:13:14Z PSEUDO_SUE: hahaha
2017-05-04T20:13:18Z PSEUDO_SUE: yeah, i did that too.
2017-05-04T20:13:22Z PSEUDO_SUE: tramp *is* cool
2017-05-04T20:13:23Z fourier: otwieracz: +1 the same
2017-05-04T20:13:35Z PSEUDO_SUE: but really, ssh'ing in and tmuxing is usually a snugger fit to my workflow
2017-05-04T20:13:38Z Grue`: I do pretty much all of my work-work in tramp
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2017-05-04T20:14:08Z PSEUDO_SUE: like i said, it was just little things
2017-05-04T20:14:13Z otwieracz: ido+tramp always was guaranteed cancer for me
2017-05-04T20:14:25Z otwieracz: you craft this very special TRAMP spell
2017-05-04T20:14:27Z PSEUDO_SUE: are ugly-as-sin DSL has a nice little vim syntax file ready, so that's handy
2017-05-04T20:14:29Z PSEUDO_SUE: stuff like that
2017-05-04T20:14:32Z otwieracz: and suddenly
2017-05-04T20:14:37Z fourier: simple stuff on remote could be easily done with vim, more difficult stuff better to do locally and deploy via git etc
2017-05-04T20:14:38Z otwieracz: IDO knows better
2017-05-04T20:14:56Z PSEUDO_SUE: yeah, fourier, that's the feeling i get too
2017-05-04T20:15:10Z Grue`: i'm the only one on the team who uses emacs, everyone else uses PyCharm and syncs files from local computer liek a caveman
2017-05-04T20:15:11Z PSEUDO_SUE: i use emacs locally for doing lisp development. it's just a nice environment for that
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2017-05-04T20:15:18Z PSEUDO_SUE: but in a lot of ways, vim is a better stand-alone editor
2017-05-04T20:15:33Z fourier: if remote is a powerfull server i just use nomachine and work in emacs remotely with the same .emacs.d directory which i just copy
2017-05-04T20:15:40Z fourier: (or clone)
2017-05-04T20:16:00Z otwieracz: PSEUDO_SUE: But there is exactly zero slime-like-vimplugins with usable REPL.
2017-05-04T20:16:12Z PSEUDO_SUE: yup. which is why lisp takes me back to emacs
2017-05-04T20:16:26Z PSEUDO_SUE: emacs is a wonderful OS. with evil mode, it's a decent editor too
2017-05-04T20:16:37Z fourier: yep this is exactly the problem - good enough environment exists only in emacs (or commercial ides)
2017-05-04T20:17:03Z jasom: and directly communicating with swank is problematic because much of slime is implemented on the emacs side
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2017-05-04T20:17:36Z PSEUDO_SUE: anyway, if any of you haven't tried out spacemacs yet, i recommend giving it a whirl. pretty damn nice as pre-rolled configs go
2017-05-04T20:18:07Z PSEUDO_SUE: (it's just a heap of config files you can git clone into your .emacs.d)
2017-05-04T20:18:11Z Grue`: everyone who used emacs for a while already has their own configs
2017-05-04T20:18:23Z PSEUDO_SUE: that's true. i did.
2017-05-04T20:18:35Z PSEUDO_SUE: but i figured i'd try it out, after mine got pretty crufty
2017-05-04T20:18:41Z PSEUDO_SUE: and it is really nice
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2017-05-04T20:19:13Z PSEUDO_SUE: since there's a few beginners here, too, it seemed worth mentioning
2017-05-04T20:19:49Z PSEUDO_SUE: and it's especially nice for vim natives
2017-05-04T20:19:54Z PSEUDO_SUE: since evil mode is default
2017-05-04T20:20:48Z fourier: never tried it but images/gifs looks good
2017-05-04T20:21:15Z PSEUDO_SUE: it's a fun way to spend some procrastination time
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2017-05-04T20:23:34Z paule32: http://paste.lisp.org/display/345817
2017-05-04T20:23:51Z paule32: Bitte stellen Sie ihre Frage:
2017-05-04T20:23:51Z paule32: ss a
2017-05-04T20:23:52Z paule32: *** - LET: illegal variable specification (TXT2 (NTH 1 (LIST TXT (STRING-TO-LIST TXT))) (FORMAT T "~A~%" TXT2))
2017-05-04T20:25:21Z PSEUDO_SUE: there's a couple small problems here
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2017-05-04T20:25:35Z jasom: paule32: your indentation is wrong; reindenting shows that (format t ...) is inside the let bindings but not part of the txt2 binding
2017-05-04T20:25:47Z PSEUDO_SUE: what's (list txt (string-to-list txt)) meant to do?
2017-05-04T20:26:15Z PSEUDO_SUE: #'list in lisp doesn't work the same way as list() in python.
2017-05-04T20:26:24Z jasom: paule32: I annotated with emacs's auto-indentation of the code
2017-05-04T20:26:24Z PSEUDO_SUE: it just assembles its arguments into a list
2017-05-04T20:26:30Z shrdlu68: paule32: (let (var1 var2)...)
2017-05-04T20:26:52Z PSEUDO_SUE: also, your format call is inside the let environment
2017-05-04T20:27:07Z PSEUDO_SUE: (the second one)
2017-05-04T20:27:26Z PSEUDO_SUE: I think you meant to close that after the (nth 1...) call
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2017-05-04T20:27:50Z shrdlu68: paule32: (let ((var1 (init-form1)) (var2 (init-form2)))...)
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2017-05-04T20:29:14Z shrdlu68: paule32: (let (var) ...) == (let ((var nil))...)
2017-05-04T20:29:17Z jasom: paule32: http://paste.lisp.org/+7EU1/2 should at least compile
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2017-05-04T20:30:43Z PSEUDO_SUE: i added a suggestion too, but realized i made a mistake in it.
2017-05-04T20:30:47Z PSEUDO_SUE: it should be let*, not let
2017-05-04T20:31:36Z paule32: jasom: this prints (aa bb)
2017-05-04T20:31:46Z paule32: but i want aa
2017-05-04T20:32:04Z PSEUDO_SUE: anyway, (nth 1 ...) will grab the second element of the list. (you could do the same with cadr, by the way). so you probably don't want to have it grab the second element of (list txt (string-to-list txt)), since that's just (string-to-list txt)
2017-05-04T20:32:27Z jasom: paule32: (nth 0 (string-to-list txt))
2017-05-04T20:32:36Z PSEUDO_SUE: ^
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2017-05-04T20:33:56Z jasom: paule32: or similarly (first (string-to-list txt))
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2017-05-04T20:35:09Z edgar-rft: shrdlu68: I have asked a school-teacher I know and he says it's "freies buch" because it's "das buch" (the book is an "it") and therefore "freie" gets the "s" from "das", then "freies" becomes an "it", too. IMO there a way too many weird german grammar rules.
2017-05-04T20:35:57Z paule32: yeah
2017-05-04T20:36:00Z paule32: it work
2017-05-04T20:36:04Z jasom: edgar-rft: it's actually pretty simple; if you omit the article, then you get a suffix to the adjective
2017-05-04T20:36:27Z paule32: old scool lisp programmers are the best
2017-05-04T20:36:36Z paule32: the computer pioniers
2017-05-04T20:36:38Z paule32: :-)
2017-05-04T20:36:44Z paule32: thank you
2017-05-04T20:36:47Z edgar-rft: jasom: but ist "freie bücher" in plural...
2017-05-04T20:36:48Z PSEUDO_SUE: :)
2017-05-04T20:37:00Z paule32: edgar-rft: yes
2017-05-04T20:37:07Z paule32: one book - singualr
2017-05-04T20:37:18Z paule32: two books plural
2017-05-04T20:37:34Z paule32: 1 buch = singular
2017-05-04T20:37:43Z paule32: 2 buecher = plural
2017-05-04T20:37:54Z shrdlu68: edgar-rft: I was taught that with "die" you add a "e" at the end. Eine Vermutung. But with the others (der and das) you don't need to. Das Kind, der Mann.
2017-05-04T20:38:07Z PSEUDO_SUE is now known as pseudo-sue
2017-05-04T20:38:20Z shrdlu68: So "freies Buch" is very bewildering to me.
2017-05-04T20:39:02Z shrdlu68: Particularly because there was not kung-fu genetiv/akkusativ/dativ declension involved.
2017-05-04T20:39:03Z paule32: bewildering?
2017-05-04T20:39:11Z paule32: what that?
2017-05-04T20:39:26Z jasom: edgar-rft: that's if you have an article; the first adjective takes on an ending indicating gender when there is no article
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2017-05-04T20:39:36Z jasom: s/article/definite article
2017-05-04T20:39:41Z paule32: the genetiv is the dativ death :-)
2017-05-04T20:39:41Z shrdlu68: paule32: Yes, it's a rule I have not encountered before.
2017-05-04T20:40:22Z jasom: shrdlu68: all endings in one table: http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebitesize/german/grammar/adjectivesendingsrev2.shtml
2017-05-04T20:40:54Z shrdlu68: jasom: Haha, takes me all the way back to high school.
2017-05-04T20:42:00Z edgar-rft: shrdlu68: german language is very bewildering for germans, too. There are many surrounding langages that are not the slightest bit related to german language, but all of them had some influence on the german language in the last centuries. German grammar rules in great parts are a hodgepotch nobody really understands.
2017-05-04T20:43:15Z shrdlu68: It's all very interesting, though. Now imagine the spectacle of Germans trying to learn Swahili, a Bantu language with Arabic influences.
2017-05-04T20:43:50Z shrdlu68: It's mind-bending, and very enjoyable to watch.
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2017-05-04T20:45:11Z shrdlu68: I love you == Ich liebe dich == Ninakupenda.
2017-05-04T20:45:28Z shrdlu68: All three components of the sentences stuffed into one word.
2017-05-04T20:45:35Z jasom: shrdlu68: also an adjective not ending in "e" would get an e suffix for the plural nominative
2017-05-04T20:45:37Z shrdlu68: And that's a mild example.
2017-05-04T20:46:11Z jasom: shrdlu68: "feine Buecher"
2017-05-04T20:46:23Z paule32: shrdlu68: you mean to say, in one place :-) ?
2017-05-04T20:46:56Z shrdlu68: paule32: ...yes.
2017-05-04T20:47:08Z jasom: and plural: "die alten Buecher"
2017-05-04T20:47:12Z paule32: 3 times 2 practising
2017-05-04T20:47:14Z paule32: haha
2017-05-04T20:48:32Z paule32: how can i create a struct, for  WORD, MEANING, SOURCE ?
2017-05-04T20:48:51Z paule32: then iterate the struct WORD for the input string
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2017-05-04T20:49:38Z jasom: paule32: what do you mean "iterate the struct"
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2017-05-04T20:51:06Z paule32: loop
2017-05-04T20:52:10Z jasom: I know what iterate means; I want to know what you mean by "iterate the struct" ; what are you looping over?
2017-05-04T20:52:56Z pseudo-sue: (defstruct whatever-you-call-it
2017-05-04T20:53:00Z pseudo-sue: (word)
2017-05-04T20:53:01Z pseudo-sue: (meaning)
2017-05-04T20:53:04Z pseudo-sue: (source))
2017-05-04T20:53:13Z pseudo-sue: so, you want to iterate over the fields?
2017-05-04T20:53:47Z pseudo-sue: Oh, wait, I see what you mean.
2017-05-04T20:54:00Z pseudo-sue: ok, so, that's how you define a struct. then you can make a new one like
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2017-05-04T20:54:42Z pseudo-sue: (make-whatever-you-call-it :word "hello" :meaning "idunno" :source some-source)
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2017-05-04T20:54:54Z pseudo-sue: you can leave fields blank when you initialize it, and they'll default to nil
2017-05-04T20:54:54Z paule32: assume the word "Sun" is given
2017-05-04T20:54:57Z pseudo-sue: ok
2017-05-04T20:55:24Z pseudo-sue: so, if you want to get the word back out of a struct, you can use
2017-05-04T20:55:24Z paule32: then the Lisp program should check, if SUN in struct list
2017-05-04T20:55:46Z jasom: paule32: you probably want a hash-table for that
2017-05-04T20:55:57Z paule32: yes, its faster?
2017-05-04T20:56:03Z jasom: the old-school way would be to use property-lists
2017-05-04T20:56:13Z pseudo-sue: it depends on how long you expect them to be.
2017-05-04T20:56:22Z pseudo-sue: for longish collections, hashtables are much faster to search
2017-05-04T20:56:24Z pjb: You cannot iterate over the fields of a structure. Basically, fields of a structure are not first class objects in Common Lisp. However, you can iterate on readers.
2017-05-04T20:56:27Z jasom: make a hash-table which is a mapping from strings to your struct of words
2017-05-04T20:56:35Z pseudo-sue: but if they're only going to be, say, 30 elements long, it's no trouble to just use assoc
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2017-05-04T20:56:58Z pjb: (dolist (reader '(whatever-you-call-it-word whatever-you-call-it-meaning whatever-you-call-it-source)) (print (funcall reader whatever)))
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2017-05-04T20:57:02Z jasom: pseudo-sue: hash-tables are more ergonomic when your keys are strings
2017-05-04T20:57:18Z pseudo-sue: jasom: good point
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2017-05-04T20:58:16Z jasom: paule32: you need some mapping from strings to your struct, right?  hash-tables are a good "default" thing to use for this.
2017-05-04T20:58:19Z pjb: On the other hand, you may also implement your structure as a list or a vector: (defstruct (whatever-you-call-it (:type vector)) (word)(meaning)(source))  and then do (loop for slot across (make-whatever-you-call-it :word 1 :meaning 2 :source 3) collect slot) #| --> (1 2 3) |#
2017-05-04T20:58:32Z paule32: ok
2017-05-04T20:59:01Z jasom: pjb: it doesn't sound like he wants to iterate across members of a struct, he wants to iterate over a list of structs, searching for something; a hash-table *probably* makes more sense in this case
2017-05-04T20:59:19Z jasom: anyway, I have to go
2017-05-04T20:59:36Z pjb: Yes. to implement the index.
2017-05-04T21:00:04Z paule32: 1. i type in:   "what is water"
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2017-05-04T21:00:15Z paule32: 2. search what, is, water in a struct
2017-05-04T21:00:36Z paule32: in form of WORD, MEAN, SOURCE
2017-05-04T21:01:08Z paule32: 3. if WORD from string (split) or (list position) 0 or 1 ...
2017-05-04T21:01:19Z paule32: then check mean
2017-05-04T21:01:29Z paule32: or better print out mean
2017-05-04T21:02:05Z paule32: the problem is, "water" can have more than one mean'ings
2017-05-04T21:02:25Z paule32: like "fluid", "warm", "cold", ...
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2017-05-04T21:03:31Z paule32: atm, i have create a new (source) struct "duden" aka (defstruct duden (word)(mean)(source))
2017-05-04T21:03:46Z paule32: so, next, my task is to collect data
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2017-05-04T21:04:10Z paule32: i don't want to use database at the moment
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2017-05-04T21:04:55Z paule32: because i would like to introduce kids/young people in make neural networks
2017-05-04T21:05:12Z paule32: atm, the olds relation
2017-05-04T21:05:28Z paule32: in form of:  3 friends work as programmer in a firm
2017-05-04T21:05:46Z paule32: 1 c++
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2017-05-04T21:05:50Z paule32: 1 java
2017-05-04T21:05:56Z paule32: 1 pascal
2017-05-04T21:06:14Z paule32: the names are: Otto, Paul, and Heinz
2017-05-04T21:06:40Z paule32: the c++ programmer has no sisters (A)
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2017-05-04T21:07:01Z paule32: he is the youngster of the friends
2017-05-04T21:07:07Z paule32: (B)
2017-05-04T21:07:44Z paule32: Heinz, he is with the sister of Otto married is (C)
2017-05-04T21:07:59Z paule32: he is older than the Java programmer
2017-05-04T21:08:39Z paule32: now, the question is: who code in which language?
2017-05-04T21:08:47Z pjb: Heinz = Pascal
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2017-05-04T21:08:57Z paule32: no
2017-05-04T21:09:00Z pjb: Paul = C++
2017-05-04T21:09:06Z pjb: Otto = Java
2017-05-04T21:09:09Z paule32: i forgett the java (D)
2017-05-04T21:09:21Z pjb: we have enough info.
2017-05-04T21:09:46Z paule32: Otto = Java is correct
2017-05-04T21:10:19Z paule32: Heinz in Pascal
2017-05-04T21:10:21Z pjb: C++ is the youngest.  But Heinz is older than Java, so Heniz is not C++
2017-05-04T21:10:44Z pjb: Since Heinz is older than Java, he's not Java either. Therefore Heinz is Pascal.
2017-05-04T21:10:58Z paule32: corect
2017-05-04T21:11:52Z paule32: and Paul in C++
2017-05-04T21:12:31Z paule32: this entry problem, i try to solve with clisp
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2017-05-04T21:14:17Z pjb: You need a sophisticated ontology.
2017-05-04T21:14:36Z paule32: but the entry problem for is, how the computer understand, what i want ? in form as a question, that enters the user
2017-05-04T21:15:19Z pjb: Unless you don't want to do the nlp.  Then you can just write down the constraints, and use a constraint solver.
2017-05-04T21:16:02Z shrdlu68: pjb: Please tell me there's a constraint solver written in Lisp?
2017-05-04T21:16:25Z pjb: There's com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.constraints:solve-constraints ; I don't know if it'll be applicable to your case.
2017-05-04T21:16:42Z shrdlu68: (Well of course there is, given the position of Lisp in history). I mean a free one.
2017-05-04T21:16:49Z shrdlu68: Ah, I see.
2017-05-04T21:17:40Z paule32: i try to stay free
2017-05-04T21:17:50Z paule32: i work for my non-profit firm
2017-05-04T21:18:06Z paule32: also extensive hobby programming :)
2017-05-04T21:18:29Z paule32: so, you can contact me, for updates
2017-05-04T21:21:13Z paule32: now, basic questions:
2017-05-04T21:21:29Z paule32: when i have the word "WHO"
2017-05-04T21:21:44Z paule32: how many data could be collect?
2017-05-04T21:22:13Z paule32: e.g. is substantive
2017-05-04T21:22:38Z paule32: e.g. male/feminim
2017-05-04T21:22:39Z paule32: ...
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2017-05-04T21:23:56Z paule32: so the word WHO is used to ask a person indirect or direct
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2017-05-04T21:24:44Z paule32: so the struct can have: "used to ask person"
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2017-05-04T21:25:14Z paule32: now, we have 4 new words
2017-05-04T21:25:39Z paule32: eg. what is a "person"?
2017-05-04T21:26:11Z paule32: then: it can be male, female, ill, vital ...
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2017-05-04T21:29:24Z paule32: (defstruct duden word mean_kannsein source )
2017-05-04T21:29:33Z paule32: (setq duden1 (make-duden :word "WER"
2017-05-04T21:29:33Z paule32:   :mean_kannsein "PERSON"
2017-05-04T21:29:33Z paule32: )
2017-05-04T21:30:29Z paule32: so "mean_kannsein"  = mean_canbe  is the problem what i have
2017-05-04T21:30:42Z paule32: it can more than one times
2017-05-04T21:30:51Z paule32: can i use lists in structs?
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2017-05-04T21:33:41Z emaczen: What does: "No more immobile pages available" mean in SBCL?
2017-05-04T21:34:03Z pseudo-sue: sounds like a memory management issue.
2017-05-04T21:34:47Z pseudo-sue: yeah, basically, you're out of memory.
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2017-05-04T21:35:26Z emaczen: pseudo-sue: How can I increase? I have 4 GB of ram on 2 cores
2017-05-04T21:35:35Z emaczen: (format t "~E" (sb-ext:dynamic-space-size)) --> 2.1474837e+9
2017-05-04T21:35:36Z foom: immobile space is a relatively new feature dougk just added. It's also possible there's a bug of some sort.
2017-05-04T21:35:53Z paule32: my server has 2cpus and 24 Gig Ram
2017-05-04T21:35:54Z pseudo-sue: iirc there's a command line parameter for sbcl that controls how much heap space you give it
2017-05-04T21:35:58Z pseudo-sue: like you do with java
2017-05-04T21:36:02Z paule32: should be enough
2017-05-04T21:36:29Z emaczen: pseudo-sue: That's what sb-ext:dynamic-space-size shows -- I allocated 2G
2017-05-04T21:36:39Z pseudo-sue: right.
2017-05-04T21:37:22Z pseudo-sue: hm. the manpage shows params for --dynamic-space-size and --control-stack-size, but i don't see one for immobile memory...
2017-05-04T21:37:57Z pseudo-sue: i figured there's be some sort of dial like that, but as foom says, this is apparently a new feature, so maybe not?
2017-05-04T21:38:33Z foom: https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/master/base-target-features.lisp-expr#L162
2017-05-04T21:38:40Z paule32: http://paste.lisp.org/display/345819
2017-05-04T21:38:47Z paule32: is that correct?
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2017-05-04T21:44:59Z shka_: where are recordings from ELS?
2017-05-04T21:45:00Z shka_: :/
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2017-05-04T21:48:30Z emaczen: is an immobile page part of dynamic-space?
2017-05-04T21:49:01Z emaczen: the context of this problem is creating big hash-tables
2017-05-04T21:51:05Z ealfonso: what I if I don't want to use usocket and just want a simple tcp pipe and write some data to it?
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2017-05-04T21:58:08Z shrdlu68: ealfonso: Then use your implementation's socket interface, if it has one.
2017-05-04T22:00:09Z shrdlu68: ealfonso: Which implementation are you using?
2017-05-04T22:00:14Z ealfonso: sbcl
2017-05-04T22:00:29Z ealfonso: my goal was to not have to use google or stackoverflow, only apropos/describe
2017-05-04T22:00:56Z ealfonso: and any other doc within the repl
2017-05-04T22:01:15Z shrdlu68: Okay, how far did you get?
2017-05-04T22:01:42Z shrdlu68: Where did you get stuck?
2017-05-04T22:02:01Z ealfonso: (make-instance 'SB-BSD-SOCKETS:INET-SOCKET :type :stream :protocol :tcp)
2017-05-04T22:02:32Z shrdlu68: And...?
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2017-05-04T22:02:33Z ealfonso: (describe 'sb-bsd-sockets:inet-socket) => doesn't tell me anything about how to specify host, port, no pointers about where to look next
2017-05-04T22:03:04Z ealfonso: doesn't tell me how to use it, how to write data, close, etc
2017-05-04T22:03:13Z shrdlu68: I see.
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2017-05-04T22:03:40Z shka_: ealfonso: reading manual of sbcl is no go?
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2017-05-04T22:05:15Z shrdlu68: ealfonso: Well, since you know the object, try to look for its generic functions and methods.
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2017-05-04T22:08:14Z paule32: hello, was little bit idle
2017-05-04T22:08:16Z paule32: http://paste.lisp.org/display/345819
2017-05-04T22:08:20Z ealfonso: (describe 'SB-BSD-SOCKETS:MAKE-INET-SOCKET) => "Deprecated in favour of make-instance"
2017-05-04T22:09:52Z paule32: how can i collect data?
2017-05-04T22:10:03Z ealfonso: (describe 'QL-SCL:CONNECT-TO-INET-SOCKET) => no doc
2017-05-04T22:10:31Z shka_: ealfonso: btw, why not usocket?
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2017-05-04T22:11:09Z shrdlu68: ealfonso: (do-symbols (s (find-package "SB-BSD-SOCKETS"))                                               (print s))
2017-05-04T22:12:15Z shrdlu68: ealfonso: Using that, I see some interesting symbols.
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2017-05-04T22:12:39Z ealfonso: I'm writing client code for stumpwm, it's not clear to me how to add a dependency. right now I'm using "nc" subprocess, which is bad, and nc flags are not consistent between debian and centos
2017-05-04T22:12:57Z Xach: ealfonso: Not all documentation is available via apropos or describe. the manual is more thorough.
2017-05-04T22:14:20Z ealfonso: I see 1166 symbols. I guess I do have to give up in the end and use google
2017-05-04T22:14:44Z shrdlu68: SB-BSD-SOCKETS:SOCKET-ACCEPT, SB-BSD-SOCKETS:SOCKET-LISTEN, SB-BSD-SOCKETS:SOCKET-OPEN-P, SB-BSD-SOCKETS:SOCKET-BIND, SB-BSD-SOCKETS:SOCKET-CLOSE, SOCKET-RECEIVE
2017-05-04T22:15:20Z shrdlu68: Ignore most except those that start with SB-BSD-SOCKETS:
2017-05-04T22:15:55Z shrdlu68: Looks it imports from :common-lisp, so there's a lot to ignore.
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2017-05-04T22:17:08Z shrdlu68: ealfonso: I think you want SB-BSD-SOCKETS:SOCKET-CONNECT
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2017-05-04T22:18:02Z shrdlu68: I think calling describe on those should get you through.
2017-05-04T22:18:48Z shrdlu68: ealfonso: SB-BSD-SOCKETS::MAKE-SOCKADDR-FOR
2017-05-04T22:19:10Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2017-05-04T22:19:49Z shrdlu68: ealfonso: SB-BSD-SOCKETS:SOCKET-MAKE-STREAM, SB-BSD-SOCKETS:MAKE-INET-SOCKET, SB-BSD-SOCKETS:MAKE-INET-ADDRESS
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2017-05-04T22:20:59Z ealfonso: shrdlu68 thanks, I'm exploring those, I'll see if I get anywhere
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2017-05-04T22:24:25Z ealfonso: and I could probably save myself a lot of time if I just googled an example of sbcl sockets...
2017-05-04T22:25:00Z shrdlu68: ealfonso: Do you have quicklisp installed?
2017-05-04T22:25:28Z ealfonso: yeah. I can install usocket via quicklisp, and that would make it available to my client code within stumpwm
2017-05-04T22:25:59Z ealfonso: I guess I wanted to see how feasible it was to use the docs exclusively
2017-05-04T22:26:31Z ealfonso: these docs are more useful if you already know what you are doing, and just need a reference
2017-05-04T22:26:39Z shrdlu68: Well, you almost got there.
2017-05-04T22:26:45Z ealfonso: they do not teach the protocol or the usage
2017-05-04T22:27:32Z shrdlu68: Look in ~/quicklisp/quicklisp/network.lisp for example usage of sbcl sockets.
2017-05-04T22:28:11Z shrdlu68: However, usocket is just a few keystrokes away, as you know.
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2017-05-04T22:31:56Z emaczen: So, I'm just using CCL and everything is fine -- no immobile pages
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2017-05-04T22:38:24Z paule32: http://codepad.org/x39zozLF
2017-05-04T22:38:39Z paule32: how can i iterate this structure?
2017-05-04T22:39:04Z paule32: the first point is: computer ask user for question:
2017-05-04T22:39:29Z paule32: like "WER IST"   (this is german, and english wouldbe "who is")
2017-05-04T22:40:11Z paule32: now, the computer should try to find the string "WER IST" in the struct
2017-05-04T22:40:24Z paule32: have you a algo?
2017-05-04T22:40:26Z paule32: thanks
2017-05-04T22:42:00Z paule32: or to commonly:
2017-05-04T22:42:32Z paule32: how shows the loop of string "WER IST" ?
2017-05-04T22:43:13Z pseudo-sue: (loop for (key vals) in (duden-mean_kannsein duden1) do ... )
2017-05-04T22:43:41Z pseudo-sue: that will bind key to the name and vals to the list of words paired with the name inside the body of the loop
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2017-05-04T23:04:44Z paule32: thank you, i have to go bed, till then, your new lisper :-)
2017-05-04T23:05:00Z pseudo-sue: happy hacking :)
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2017-05-04T23:12:35Z paule32: i am lucky, i cant sleep
2017-05-04T23:12:36Z paule32: *** - CAR: "JENS" is not a list
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2017-05-04T23:23:11Z pseudo-sue: hey, paul32, give this a read. it's a very, very nice intro to lisp, and will probably answer most of your questions for you. http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/
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