2017-05-01T00:00:04Z phoe: what's non-conforming in SBCL is 2017-05-01T00:00:07Z phoe: (typep #'car '(function * *)) ;=> T 2017-05-01T00:00:26Z phoe: (typep #'car '(function)) ;=> T 2017-05-01T00:00:32Z pillton: I'd say it expands the type first. 2017-05-01T00:00:34Z Bike: imo, the horror. 2017-05-01T00:00:52Z phoe: ayup 2017-05-01T00:01:41Z pillton: The funcallable-standard-object isn't really a good solution because you still rely on the user doing the right thing. 2017-05-01T00:01:54Z nyef: Heh. So, they eliminate the distinction, but then explicitly prevent complex function types from being used with TYPEP? 2017-05-01T00:02:36Z drcode quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-05-01T00:02:39Z phoe: nyef: correct. 2017-05-01T00:03:18Z Bike: (typep foo '(function * nil)) halting problem, baby 2017-05-01T00:04:42Z phoe: Bike: uh 2017-05-01T00:04:50Z phoe: how are you supposed to return something of type NIL 2017-05-01T00:04:54Z pillton: Is that the signature for a function that doesn't return? 2017-05-01T00:04:58Z Bike: (lambda () (loop)) 2017-05-01T00:05:10Z phoe: ... 2017-05-01T00:05:40Z nyef: Apparently, SBCL is (one of?) the only implementation(s?) that uses a NIL return type to mean "doesn't return". 2017-05-01T00:05:47Z phoe: I should go to sleep 2017-05-01T00:05:53Z nyef: It *has* caused compatibility problems. 2017-05-01T00:06:10Z Bike: cleavir sorta does, but, i kinda hate function types 2017-05-01T00:07:47Z pillton: It is a weird type. 2017-05-01T00:08:03Z drcode joined #lisp 2017-05-01T00:09:18Z nyef: I've gone through all of the Compound Type Specifier Names in CLHS 4.2.3 Figure 4-3, and only FUNCTION has the distinction between for-declaration and for-discrimination. I have not (yet?) gone through the list of Atomic Type Specifiers in Figure 4-2. 2017-05-01T00:09:23Z p9s quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-01T00:09:30Z p9s joined #lisp 2017-05-01T00:11:27Z nyef: Bike: Umm... (FUNCTION *) doesn't look to be legal? 2017-05-01T00:11:46Z nyef: It looks like the argument typespec has to be a list? 2017-05-01T00:11:57Z Bike: huh. yeah. 2017-05-01T00:12:23Z Bike: &rest t then 2017-05-01T00:12:31Z aeth: oh wow, SBCL solved the halting problem :-p 2017-05-01T00:12:52Z azzamsa joined #lisp 2017-05-01T00:13:22Z nyef: Failing to see how this gets into halting problem territory, but that's probably lack of imagination on my part. 2017-05-01T00:16:31Z Bike: if a function having return type NIL means it doesn't return, and typep can test for such a function type 2017-05-01T00:16:38Z pillton: (typep (lambda (x) (some-other-function)) '(function (&rest t) nil))? 2017-05-01T00:17:53Z nyef: Sounds like we need upgraded-function-type after all. 2017-05-01T00:18:28Z nyef: Don't forget that we can use OR in a function's value-typespec. 2017-05-01T00:18:43Z Bike: so? 2017-05-01T00:19:27Z thijso quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-01T00:20:27Z smoon joined #lisp 2017-05-01T00:21:38Z nyef: Basically, leave the cop-out in place, so that the function type can be "returns anything, or doesn't return at all", so that we don't have to tangle with the halting problem, and move on. 2017-05-01T00:22:47Z barton_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-05-01T00:23:48Z Bike: being able to indicate that a function doesn't return is useful, though. 2017-05-01T00:24:12Z nyef: Yes, it is. 2017-05-01T00:24:56Z nyef: Being able to declare that a function doesn't return is also useful, as is being able to declare that a function *does* return (and what it returns). 2017-05-01T00:25:57Z nyef: But the default becomes "we don't know what this function returns, if it returns at all". 2017-05-01T00:27:42Z Bike: sure... i guess i don't see what you're saying 2017-05-01T00:28:12Z barton_ joined #lisp 2017-05-01T00:30:25Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2017-05-01T00:31:15Z nyef: Basically, I don't see why we have to solve the halting problem here. 2017-05-01T00:31:40Z drcode quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-01T00:31:49Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-01T00:32:14Z shifty joined #lisp 2017-05-01T00:32:32Z Bike: i'm just saying that if (function whatever nil) means "function that doesn't return" as sbcl takes it, and (typep foo '(function whatever nil)) works which it doesn't, that typep call would be asking the halting problem 2017-05-01T00:32:48Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2017-05-01T00:34:19Z nyef: Ah. 2017-05-01T00:34:25Z smoon quit (Quit: smoon) 2017-05-01T00:34:27Z drcode joined #lisp 2017-05-01T00:34:31Z daemoz joined #lisp 2017-05-01T00:36:05Z nyef: Except that we would turn around and define things such that if we can't decide, for a given function, if it halts or not, that we give the indeterminate answer, so that we don't actually have to solve the halting problem. 2017-05-01T00:36:13Z nyef: Basically, we're allowed to say "we don't know". 2017-05-01T00:37:26Z Bike: upgraded-function-type sounds better 2017-05-01T00:38:07Z Bike: though i guess it would be strange lattice-wise 2017-05-01T00:40:33Z nyef: Mmm. It's already strange, but the way that it involves multiple types within itself doesn't help, I'm sure. 2017-05-01T00:43:50Z nyef: Heh. So, we can argue that a compound FUNCTION type specifier may be used for discrimination, but not via TYPEP? 2017-05-01T00:46:47Z vydd quit 2017-05-01T00:47:05Z rageoholic joined #lisp 2017-05-01T00:47:13Z practica` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-05-01T00:48:40Z practica` joined #lisp 2017-05-01T00:50:33Z nyef: ... 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2017-05-01T01:38:45Z Bike: well, this is a channel for common lisp particularly, so you might guess the first answer 2017-05-01T01:39:35Z Bike: for emacs, you can install it from your package manager along with a lisp implementation, then install quicklisp (the package distribution thingie), and then install the slime-helper that will set that up. it's not hard 2017-05-01T01:40:15Z smoon quit (Quit: smoon) 2017-05-01T01:40:16Z thevaliantx: i saw no package in Emacs for Slime 2017-05-01T01:41:06Z p_l: thevaliantx: for SLIME, best to use Quicklisp's slime-helper 2017-05-01T01:41:07Z Bike: yeah that's why you get it this way instead 2017-05-01T01:41:41Z p_l: https://www.quicklisp.org/beta/ <--- everything is written there 2017-05-01T01:42:01Z p_l: but for learning, if you have book about DrRacket already, it's a fine tool (and not just for learning) 2017-05-01T01:42:16Z p_l: but I, and probably most on this channel, am biased for Common Lisp :) 2017-05-01T01:45:54Z PlasmaStar quit (Remote 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Great as usual. You? 2017-05-01T06:51:57Z DingoSaar_ joined #lisp 2017-05-01T06:51:59Z daemoz: Likewise. Working on anything fun? I've been breaking from the Lisp focusing on a bit of ML things. 2017-05-01T06:52:19Z daemoz: So good, but frustrated at times, hah 2017-05-01T06:53:23Z beach: I am working on several things: SICL, Cleavir, Second Climacs, McCLIM, and generally trying to improve old code that has a style that I no longer prefer. 2017-05-01T06:53:58Z shrdlu68 left #lisp 2017-05-01T06:54:07Z beach: Le me know if you are looking for some Common Lisp project. :) 2017-05-01T06:54:28Z holycow: is second climacs going to have a terminal only option or is it purely gui? 2017-05-01T06:54:46Z beach: Right now it only has a McCLIM GUI. 2017-05-01T06:55:03Z beach: Terminal would be tough, given the functionality I want. 2017-05-01T06:55:08Z daemoz: Always busy I see! Yes, I am a person who loves to contribute but still quite new to Lisp. Keeping tabs on the github Lisp-Guild page someone posted though, seems like a good idea to aggregate everything there. 2017-05-01T06:55:12Z holycow: fair enough. was just curious. 2017-05-01T06:55:14Z DingoSaar quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-05-01T06:55:28Z pjb: daemoz: that's the dilemama: shall we work on labor day or not? 2017-05-01T06:55:57Z daemoz: pjb: if you love the work then is it work? 2017-05-01T06:56:27Z beach: daemoz: The Lisp Guild has not been terribly efficient (yet) in terms of my time. All I am hoping for so far is a bit more exposure of what I am up to. 2017-05-01T06:56:33Z daemoz: beach: Not a fan of backwards compatibility? speaking on cli for climacs 2017-05-01T06:57:22Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2017-05-01T06:57:38Z beach: daemoz: Well, the goal of Second Climacs is to have an incremental parser for Common Lisp that is an order of magnitude better than what we have now, and to display information about the Common Lisp source code in ways that the user can interact with this information. 2017-05-01T06:57:43Z daemoz: beach: Feel always free to discuss your ideas with me, I always quite like to hear. 2017-05-01T06:57:50Z beach: I think that would be much harder to do with a terminal. 2017-05-01T06:58:07Z beach: Perhaps the solution would be to have a TTY backend for McCLIM. 2017-05-01T06:58:15Z beach: daemoz: Thanks. 2017-05-01T06:58:21Z holycow: that last thing probably sounds like the only real option 2017-05-01T06:58:29Z holycow: note: not that it needs to be pursued 2017-05-01T06:58:34Z daemoz: beach: ahh I see, yes that would be a difficulty. 2017-05-01T06:58:49Z daemoz: The functionality then is like what I hear the old Lisp Machine's were capable of? 2017-05-01T06:58:55Z daemoz: Similar, at least. 2017-05-01T06:58:59Z beach: holycow: Either way, it is way down the list of priorities as far as I am concerned. 2017-05-01T06:59:49Z beach: daemoz: I don't know what the editor of the Lisp machine was capable of, but I suspect they didn't have the raw computing power to do what I am aiming for. 2017-05-01T07:00:46Z daemoz: beach: most certainly not, but to what I am aware of the Lisp Machine's were aware of all the currently running code so one could be directed to where to edit a currently running program and of course modify while running 2017-05-01T07:01:16Z daemoz: I assume you mean some more dynamic functionality for your climacs? 2017-05-01T07:01:27Z beach: daemoz: For example, I am going to do an incremental compilation at typing speed of the top-level expressions in a buffer, so that information about variables is readily available. Hovering over a variable binding or assignment could show places where that binding influences the value for instance. 2017-05-01T07:01:42Z foom joined #lisp 2017-05-01T07:02:32Z beach: daemoz: I think it would require collaboration from the underlying Common Lisp implementation, which is why I am working on SICL in parallel. 2017-05-01T07:02:32Z daemoz: Oh, so adding some of the good ideas from the gui-ides that are popular in industry to the more powerful world of lisp. 2017-05-01T07:02:50Z daemoz: beach: That makes sense then. A lot on your plate, though. 2017-05-01T07:02:57Z beach: No kidding. 2017-05-01T07:04:48Z holycow: yeah. that is an scary workload. 2017-05-01T07:05:07Z beach: daemoz: My thinking is that, if I can make Common Lisp as good as I think I can, then it will be irresistible, even to experienced Emacs users like myself, and that will trigger more contributions, and let me concentrate on something else. 2017-05-01T07:05:18Z beach: I mean, if I can make Second Climacs as good. 2017-05-01T07:05:22Z beach: Not Common Lisp. 2017-05-01T07:05:28Z daemoz: Right. 2017-05-01T07:06:08Z beach: holycow: There is hope though. Bike is doing a great job with Cleavir, and in particular as it is integrated into Clasp. 2017-05-01T07:06:23Z daemoz: Well that's a valiant goal that definitely has a thought-out direction behind it. If there's anything I could do to help I would offer, although, again, I doubt my contributions will be valuable at this point. 2017-05-01T07:06:46Z beach: holycow: And jackdaniel is doing a great job maintaining McCLIM. He has managed to get several more people interested in it. 2017-05-01T07:06:56Z holycow: oh nice! 2017-05-01T07:06:59Z azzamsa joined #lisp 2017-05-01T07:08:05Z Jesin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-01T07:08:22Z beach: daemoz: That's part of my problem. The stuff I am working on typically requires quite a lot of background in data structures, algorithms, software engineering, etc. and knowledge about CLOS, CLIM, and so on. So there are few people who can help me with that. 2017-05-01T07:09:35Z daemoz: Well I've been working through some of the clim documentation, maybe there will be something less high-level to deal with in there. 2017-05-01T07:09:50Z Bike quit (Quit: fall) 2017-05-01T07:10:14Z daemoz: on another note, clasp seems interesting. I'm using ECL for a project right now, maybe it can fill a similar but different spot? 2017-05-01T07:10:18Z beach: daemoz: You could write some simple applications. The nice people in #clim would help out. 2017-05-01T07:10:37Z daemoz: beach: In order to demonstrate clim's functionality? 2017-05-01T07:10:46Z beach: Mainly, yes. 2017-05-01T07:10:49Z daemoz: I could do that. 2017-05-01T07:10:57Z beach: Say, a calendar application, similar to Google calendar. 2017-05-01T07:11:02Z pjb: Make sure it runs on multiple backends, otherwise there's no point compared to Gtk or Qt… 2017-05-01T07:11:03Z beach: Very typical CLIM stuff. 2017-05-01T07:11:09Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-05-01T07:11:35Z daemoz: from what I read from the documentation the only working backend is X right now but there's room to add other backends. 2017-05-01T07:11:45Z beach: pjb: Comparison is not the main goal. Illustrating how to write applications is much more urgent. 2017-05-01T07:12:14Z beach: daemoz: Yes, you are right. There is again active development on other backends as of recently. 2017-05-01T07:12:35Z beach: Like I said, jackdaniel has managed to get more people interested. 2017-05-01T07:12:59Z daemoz: beach: That is good. Setting up XQuarts on my macbook became a bit of a difficulty so I would hate for that to turn osx users off of the project. 2017-05-01T07:13:01Z holycow: i don't think its necessary to copmare to gtk or qt 2017-05-01T07:13:16Z beach: daemoz: Yes, I see. 2017-05-01T07:13:33Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2017-05-01T07:15:40Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-05-01T07:17:27Z l04m33 joined #lisp 2017-05-01T07:17:40Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-05-01T07:18:18Z safe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-05-01T07:29:57Z MONODA` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-01T07:32:15Z ghard`` joined #lisp 2017-05-01T07:35:08Z ghard`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-01T07:35:15Z ghard`` joined #lisp 2017-05-01T07:36:04Z Dotcra quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-05-01T07:36:38Z space_otter quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-01T07:51:26Z azzamsa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-05-01T07:54:18Z ryanwatkins joined #lisp 2017-05-01T07:56:37Z ryanwatk` joined #lisp 2017-05-01T07:56:46Z whiteline quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-05-01T08:00:14Z Jesin joined #lisp 2017-05-01T08:00:56Z ryanwatkins quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-05-01T08:03:20Z krwq quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-05-01T08:06:32Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-05-01T08:12:05Z teggi quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-05-01T08:13:47Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2017-05-01T08:22:56Z l04m33 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-05-01T08:23:43Z Guest73014 joined #lisp 2017-05-01T08:24:10Z Guest24524 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-01T08:27:06Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-05-01T08:27:38Z mrcom quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2017-05-01T08:30:38Z ryanwatk` quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-05-01T08:31:40Z ryanwatkins joined #lisp 2017-05-01T08:34:59Z shka joined #lisp 2017-05-01T08:35:57Z ryanwatkins quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-01T08:37:03Z nowhereman quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-05-01T08:37:11Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2017-05-01T08:42:49Z pr left #lisp 2017-05-01T08:46:38Z rippa joined #lisp 2017-05-01T08:47:39Z Ven joined #lisp 2017-05-01T08:48:03Z Ven is now known as Guest85461 2017-05-01T08:52:22Z modula joined #lisp 2017-05-01T08:53:46Z cmatei quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-01T08:54:28Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-01T08:54:28Z modula is now known as defaultxr 2017-05-01T08:55:23Z cmatei joined #lisp 2017-05-01T09:06:39Z puchacz joined #lisp 2017-05-01T09:07:22Z l04m33 joined #lisp 2017-05-01T09:11:42Z whoman joined #lisp 2017-05-01T09:13:05Z Guest85461 quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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It can be adjustable without having a fill pointer. 2017-05-01T10:47:11Z puchacz quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2017-05-01T10:47:18Z milanj joined #lisp 2017-05-01T10:48:28Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-05-01T10:49:26Z jackdaniel: ddddddd 2017-05-01T10:49:40Z beach: cat on the keyboard? 2017-05-01T10:49:54Z jackdaniel: more or less, I have connectivity problems 2017-05-01T10:50:10Z jackdaniel: and I don't see typed things for small periods of time, and pressing enter causes this 2017-05-01T10:50:29Z beach: Strange! 2017-05-01T10:51:20Z jackdaniel: so are cats ;) 2017-05-01T10:52:30Z beach: Indeed. 2017-05-01T10:53:27Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-05-01T10:53:54Z l04m33 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-05-01T10:55:16Z l04m33 joined #lisp 2017-05-01T10:58:37Z hhdave quit (Quit: hhdave) 2017-05-01T10:59:40Z segmond quit (Quit: l8r) 2017-05-01T10:59:58Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-01T11:01:35Z ttt72 quit (Quit: ttt72) 2017-05-01T11:01:58Z ttt72 joined #lisp 2017-05-01T11:03:22Z barton_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-01T11:03:41Z barton_ joined #lisp 2017-05-01T11:05:37Z azzamsa joined #lisp 2017-05-01T11:06:05Z ttt72 quit (Client Quit) 2017-05-01T11:06:19Z azzamsa quit (Client Quit) 2017-05-01T11:06:29Z ttt72 joined #lisp 2017-05-01T11:06:33Z Guest98432 quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-05-01T11:07:40Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-01T11:09:18Z zulu_inuoe joined #lisp 2017-05-01T11:15:09Z oleo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2017-05-01T11:15:14Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2017-05-01T11:15:14Z Guest90361 is now known as CrazEd 2017-05-01T11:15:43Z CrazEd is now known as Guest60947 2017-05-01T11:16:00Z l04m33 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-05-01T11:18:34Z practica` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-05-01T11:19:17Z practica` joined #lisp 2017-05-01T11:19:20Z andrew_deane_ joined #lisp 2017-05-01T11:22:30Z ttt72 quit (Quit: ttt72) 2017-05-01T11:22:53Z ttt72 joined #lisp 2017-05-01T11:23:28Z libreman quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-05-01T11:29:19Z phoe: Morning 2017-05-01T11:29:38Z zulu_inuoe: Hallo! 2017-05-01T11:30:46Z shrdlu68_: phoe: Hi 2017-05-01T11:30:56Z beach: Hello phoe. 2017-05-01T11:31:52Z Ven_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-05-01T11:32:30Z ttt72 quit (Quit: ttt72) 2017-05-01T11:32:52Z ttt72 joined #lisp 2017-05-01T11:34:31Z Ven joined #lisp 2017-05-01T11:34:54Z Ven is now known as Guest9182 2017-05-01T11:36:41Z libreman joined #lisp 2017-05-01T11:38:17Z andrew_deane_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-05-01T11:38:21Z l04m33 joined #lisp 2017-05-01T11:39:39Z prole joined #lisp 2017-05-01T11:40:34Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-05-01T11:40:50Z p9s_ joined #lisp 2017-05-01T11:41:08Z libreman quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-01T11:43:28Z p9s quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-01T11:47:54Z ttt72 quit (Quit: ttt72) 2017-05-01T11:48:18Z ttt72 joined #lisp 2017-05-01T11:49:52Z andrew_deane_ joined #lisp 2017-05-01T11:51:59Z phoe: Hey hey. 2017-05-01T11:53:52Z mrcom joined #lisp 2017-05-01T11:54:34Z Xach: SSL updated 2017-05-01T11:55:08Z libreman joined #lisp 2017-05-01T11:55:45Z shka: anybody uses prove and knows how to put all tests inside of macro? 2017-05-01T11:56:27Z shka: should i create file with macro and separate test files? 2017-05-01T11:59:33Z ttt72 quit (Quit: ttt72) 2017-05-01T11:59:56Z ttt72 joined #lisp 2017-05-01T12:00:19Z prole quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-01T12:01:10Z libreman quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-01T12:04:38Z raynold quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-05-01T12:05:37Z shrdlu68_: Xach: Which SSL? 2017-05-01T12:06:15Z prole joined #lisp 2017-05-01T12:06:18Z shrdlu68_ is now known as shrdlu68 2017-05-01T12:06:22Z unrahul quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-05-01T12:07:12Z ryanwatkins joined #lisp 2017-05-01T12:08:55Z Xach: shrdlu68: *.quicklisp.org 2017-05-01T12:09:03Z Xach: It expired over the weekend 2017-05-01T12:09:13Z Xach: I had only two years' warning 2017-05-01T12:09:18Z ttt72 quit (Quit: ttt72) 2017-05-01T12:09:41Z ttt72 joined #lisp 2017-05-01T12:09:45Z _death: hmm norvig talks about lisp in his new talk 2017-05-01T12:09:50Z Fare joined #lisp 2017-05-01T12:12:34Z andrew_deane_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-05-01T12:15:10Z jackdaniel: something good about it? 2017-05-01T12:15:12Z jackdaniel: :-) 2017-05-01T12:15:38Z _death: well, he has "earth needs lispers" in one of his slides 2017-05-01T12:15:51Z jackdaniel: cool 2017-05-01T12:16:09Z jackdaniel: I'll have to watch it today or tomorrow 2017-05-01T12:16:21Z Guest60947 is now known as CrazEd 2017-05-01T12:16:51Z CrazEd is now known as Guest47952 2017-05-01T12:16:53Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-05-01T12:19:48Z libreman joined #lisp 2017-05-01T12:20:51Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-01T12:25:08Z andrew_deane_ joined #lisp 2017-05-01T12:26:13Z ttt72 quit (Quit: ttt72) 2017-05-01T12:26:35Z ttt72 joined #lisp 2017-05-01T12:27:59Z shka: _death: link? 2017-05-01T12:28:16Z phoe: I want to make a loop that, given n = 3, fn and x, will return a list containing ((fn x) (fn (fn x)) (fn (fn (fn x)))). 2017-05-01T12:28:27Z _death: shka: https://vimeo.com/215418110 2017-05-01T12:28:32Z shka: _death: thanks 2017-05-01T12:28:51Z shka: phoe: use do 2017-05-01T12:30:13Z _death: (loop for i below 3 collect (loop with form = 'x for j to i do (setf form `(fn ,form)) finally (return form))) 2017-05-01T12:30:51Z _death: of course you could optimize it 2017-05-01T12:30:55Z shka: phoe: 2017-05-01T12:30:57Z shka: (flet ((fn (x) (* 2 x))) 2017-05-01T12:30:58Z shka: (do ((x 2 (fn x)) 2017-05-01T12:31:00Z shka: (i 0 (1+ i))) 2017-05-01T12:31:01Z shka: ((= i 3 ) x))) 2017-05-01T12:31:22Z ttt72 quit (Quit: ttt72) 2017-05-01T12:31:26Z shka: i think that this is the simplest way to do that :-) 2017-05-01T12:32:07Z ttt72 joined #lisp 2017-05-01T12:32:51Z phoe: shka: I have X as the initial argument 2017-05-01T12:32:54Z lerax_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-05-01T12:33:01Z lerax__ joined #lisp 2017-05-01T12:33:04Z phoe: I want to collect (f x) (f (f x)) (f (f (f x))) 2017-05-01T12:33:07Z jackdaniel: (reduce (lambda (v1 v2) (declare (ignore v2)) (cons v1 v1)) (make-list 3) :initial-value "bam") ; if you don't mind unncecessary consing 2017-05-01T12:33:16Z phoe: but I do not want to evaluate (f (f (f (f x)))) 2017-05-01T12:33:20Z shka: phoe: i think that you are smart enough to adjust my example for your use case ;-) 2017-05-01T12:33:39Z shka: but anywya 2017-05-01T12:33:42Z phoe: shka: DO seems to evaluate the new bindings before checking the arguments 2017-05-01T12:33:49Z phoe: I want to check the arguments before I bind anew 2017-05-01T12:33:57Z ttt72 quit (Client Quit) 2017-05-01T12:34:21Z shka: phoe: nah, it is fine 2017-05-01T12:34:23Z jackdaniel: shka: I like your example 2017-05-01T12:35:03Z shka: (do ((x x (funcall fn x)) (i 0 (1+ i)) ((= i n) x))) should do what you want 2017-05-01T12:35:10Z shka: n is number of repeats 2017-05-01T12:35:37Z drcode joined #lisp 2017-05-01T12:35:38Z shka: jackdaniel: btw, i started to like do only after you explained how it is designed xD 2017-05-01T12:35:47Z jackdaniel: heh 2017-05-01T12:36:02Z shka: now it think it is quite neat 2017-05-01T12:36:10Z drcode quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-01T12:37:42Z phoe: shka: okay, but I want to collect the values. 2017-05-01T12:37:54Z phoe: If I simply collect X in that loop body, I get x, (f x) and (f (f x)). 2017-05-01T12:38:07Z shka: huh? 2017-05-01T12:38:11Z shka: i don't understand 2017-05-01T12:38:31Z andrew_deane_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-01T12:38:38Z phoe: http://paste.lisp.org/display/345596 2017-05-01T12:38:48Z shka: right 2017-05-01T12:39:08Z phoe: (take-iterate 3 (lambda (x) (1+ x)) 4) ;=> (4 5 6) 2017-05-01T12:39:11Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-01T12:39:11Z phoe: where I want (5 6 7) 2017-05-01T12:39:20Z phoe: this is my issue. 2017-05-01T12:39:25Z shka: (ac (list x) (cons x ac))? 2017-05-01T12:39:35Z shka: one second 2017-05-01T12:40:22Z jackdaniel: regarding collecting, cmucl has came with collecting macro, uiop has somewhat crippled version of it called while-collecting 2017-05-01T12:41:34Z TDT joined #lisp 2017-05-01T12:42:25Z jackdaniel: regarding take-iterate, jsut change (x x ...) to (x #1=(funcall fn x) #1#) 2017-05-01T12:43:00Z shka: phoe: http://paste.lisp.org/display/345596#1 2017-05-01T12:43:17Z Zotan_ quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2017-05-01T12:43:22Z shka: phoe: that does exactly what you want 2017-05-01T12:43:29Z Zotan joined #lisp 2017-05-01T12:43:35Z shka: aah moment 2017-05-01T12:43:48Z shrdlu68: "You see, GnuTLS has long been regarded as being a poor SSL/TLS security library. A 2008 message on the OpenLDAP mailing list had "GnuTLS considered harmful" as its subject — which summed it up nicely." 2017-05-01T12:45:14Z phoe: shka: why x is initially bound to 2? 2017-05-01T12:45:19Z jackdaniel: btw, do you have actual use case for such function/macro, or it's yet another "can I do *put-your-favourite-langauge-feature* in Common Lisp? 2017-05-01T12:45:21Z bigos joined #lisp 2017-05-01T12:45:28Z shka: phoe: because of bad copy paste 2017-05-01T12:45:34Z jackdaniel: s/?/"?/ 2017-05-01T12:45:36Z shka: phoe: corrected 2017-05-01T12:45:46Z phoe: (defun many-times (fn n x) 2017-05-01T12:45:46Z phoe: (do ((x x (funcall fn x)) 2017-05-01T12:45:46Z phoe: (ac nil (cons x ac)) 2017-05-01T12:45:46Z phoe: (i 0 (1+ i))) 2017-05-01T12:45:48Z phoe: ((eql i (1+ n)) (cdr (nreverse ac))))) 2017-05-01T12:45:50Z phoe: woops, sorry 2017-05-01T12:46:41Z phoe: shka: the function gets called one time too much. https://i.imgtc.com/hGXdi3K.png 2017-05-01T12:46:54Z phoe: looks like I'll need to modify it even more. 2017-05-01T12:47:06Z shka: yes, because of psetf 2017-05-01T12:47:10Z shka: is that a problem? 2017-05-01T12:47:23Z phoe: jackdaniel: I'm trying to answer https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/68kq47/is_there_something_like_clojures_iterate_in/ 2017-05-01T12:47:24Z shka: well, there is do* 2017-05-01T12:47:57Z phoe: theoretically, Clojure's iterate says the function should be side-effect-free 2017-05-01T12:48:06Z phoe: in practice, I want to avoid an unnecessary computation 2017-05-01T12:48:13Z shka: anyway 2017-05-01T12:48:15Z shka: http://paste.lisp.org/display/345596#3 2017-05-01T12:48:16Z EvW joined #lisp 2017-05-01T12:48:18Z shka: phoe: here, do* 2017-05-01T12:48:42Z phoe: shka: oh good, thanks 2017-05-01T12:51:27Z drcode joined #lisp 2017-05-01T12:51:27Z drcode quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-01T12:54:05Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2017-05-01T12:54:11Z drcode joined #lisp 2017-05-01T12:54:20Z pjb: (loop repeat n for form = x then `(,fn ,form) collect form) is clearer IMO. 2017-05-01T12:55:16Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-05-01T12:55:34Z drcode quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-01T12:59:42Z drcode joined #lisp 2017-05-01T13:01:31Z phoe: pjb: what are you collecting? 2017-05-01T13:01:43Z drcode quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-01T13:02:04Z phoe: for n = 3, x = 1 and fn = (curry #'print #'1+), do I get (2 3 4) and 2 3 4 is printed? 2017-05-01T13:02:08Z tocky joined #lisp 2017-05-01T13:05:39Z shka: phoe: i think that clojure crowd will want recursive implementation anyway :D 2017-05-01T13:05:41Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-05-01T13:05:55Z phoe: shka: not in CL 2017-05-01T13:06:06Z drcode joined #lisp 2017-05-01T13:07:24Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-05-01T13:09:47Z heurist quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-05-01T13:10:04Z heurist` joined #lisp 2017-05-01T13:11:13Z bailon joined #lisp 2017-05-01T13:11:42Z yrdz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-01T13:14:05Z shrdlu68_ joined #lisp 2017-05-01T13:16:48Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-01T13:17:19Z Guest47952 is now known as CrazEd 2017-05-01T13:17:49Z CrazEd is now known as Guest95014 2017-05-01T13:20:15Z holycow quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2017-05-01T13:20:52Z shrdlu68_ is now known as shrdlu68 2017-05-01T13:26:24Z discardedes joined #lisp 2017-05-01T13:32:44Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-05-01T13:32:59Z lerax__ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-05-01T13:33:59Z warweasle joined #lisp 2017-05-01T13:36:24Z cro__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-05-01T13:38:03Z tocky quit (Quit: My MacBook Air has gone to sleep. 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or even more portably, and good use case for "package-used-by-list" function? 2017-05-01T14:08:18Z jackdaniel: s/and/any/ 2017-05-01T14:08:32Z ioa joined #lisp 2017-05-01T14:11:36Z Xach: package-used-by-list is a portable way to pre-check for conflicts. 2017-05-01T14:11:49Z Fare joined #lisp 2017-05-01T14:11:51Z Xach: you have to check it when making a new symbol external. 2017-05-01T14:12:32Z Xach: I suspect that's what the implementation of the package system uses anyway. 2017-05-01T14:12:48Z jackdaniel: thanks 2017-05-01T14:14:30Z wheelsucker quit (Quit: Client Quit) 2017-05-01T14:18:17Z Guest95014 is now known as CrazEd 2017-05-01T14:18:46Z CrazEd is now known as Guest26015 2017-05-01T14:20:03Z oleo joined #lisp 2017-05-01T14:21:10Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-05-01T14:21:28Z p9s joined #lisp 2017-05-01T14:22:25Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-05-01T14:22:41Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-05-01T14:23:57Z p9s_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-01T14:24:49Z _rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-05-01T14:25:56Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-05-01T14:29:13Z barton_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-01T14:29:19Z drcode quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.5 - http://znc.in) 2017-05-01T14:29:30Z barton_ joined #lisp 2017-05-01T14:29:30Z barton_ quit (Changing host) 2017-05-01T14:29:30Z barton_ joined #lisp 2017-05-01T14:29:42Z knicklux joined #lisp 2017-05-01T14:30:37Z shrdlu68: phoe: Don't know if you saw my message earlier...how do I add a task to the Guild? 2017-05-01T14:30:58Z phoe: shrdlu68: oh 2017-05-01T14:31:05Z phoe: I need to add you as a contributor to the repository. 2017-05-01T14:31:11Z phoe: What is your github login? 2017-05-01T14:31:19Z shrdlu68: shrdlu68 2017-05-01T14:31:41Z phoe: ...I could have guessed, but I wanted to be sure 2017-05-01T14:35:08Z l04m33 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-01T14:35:28Z mood_btf quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2017-05-01T14:36:02Z l04m33 joined #lisp 2017-05-01T14:39:18Z drcode joined #lisp 2017-05-01T14:41:50Z drcode quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-01T14:42:15Z yeticry joined #lisp 2017-05-01T14:42:56Z mejja joined #lisp 2017-05-01T14:45:32Z yeticry_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-05-01T14:46:44Z pjb: phoe: collecting forms. 2017-05-01T14:47:11Z pjb: (let ((x 'y) (fn 'sin) (n 3)) (loop repeat n for form = x then `(,fn ,form) collect form)) #| --> (y #1=(sin y) (sin #1#)) |# 2017-05-01T14:47:38Z phoe: pjb: no no, not forms 2017-05-01T14:47:57Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-01T14:47:58Z phoe: I wanted to collect the values of 1st 2nd 3rd application 2017-05-01T14:48:11Z pjb: You explicitely wrote: <14:33:16> but I do not want to evaluate (f (f (f (f x)))) 2017-05-01T14:48:23Z drcode joined #lisp 2017-05-01T14:48:36Z pjb: But anyways, it's as easy to do with values instead of forms. 2017-05-01T14:49:09Z phoe: pfffff, I cannot into English today 2017-05-01T14:49:09Z pjb: (let ((x (/ pi 10)) (fn 'sin) (n 3)) (loop repeat n for value = x then (funcall fn value) collect value)) #| --> (0.3141592653589793D0 0.3090169943749474D0 0.30412233994900895D0) |# 2017-05-01T14:52:43Z p9s_ joined #lisp 2017-05-01T14:54:49Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-05-01T14:55:45Z p9s quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-05-01T14:56:32Z pve joined #lisp 2017-05-01T14:58:29Z mishoo quit (Quit: (save-lisp-and-die)) 2017-05-01T14:58:39Z oleo quit (Quit: irc client terminated!) 2017-05-01T14:58:43Z mishoo joined #lisp 2017-05-01T15:00:56Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-05-01T15:03:04Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2017-05-01T15:08:03Z oleo_ joined #lisp 2017-05-01T15:08:05Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2017-05-01T15:08:26Z barton_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-01T15:08:43Z p9s_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-01T15:08:44Z barton_ joined #lisp 2017-05-01T15:08:59Z tocky quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2017-05-01T15:09:10Z p9s joined #lisp 2017-05-01T15:09:25Z oleo_ quit (Changing host) 2017-05-01T15:09:25Z oleo_ joined #lisp 2017-05-01T15:09:57Z oleo_ is now known as oleo 2017-05-01T15:12:49Z oleo is now known as Guest70551 2017-05-01T15:13:28Z p9s quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-01T15:14:01Z slyrus joined #lisp 2017-05-01T15:14:14Z Guest70551 is now known as oleo 2017-05-01T15:14:35Z slyrus: good morning 2017-05-01T15:16:29Z phoe: hey slyrus 2017-05-01T15:16:34Z jackdaniel: o/ 2017-05-01T15:17:29Z barton_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-01T15:17:46Z barton_ joined #lisp 2017-05-01T15:19:08Z Guest26015 is now known as CrazEd 2017-05-01T15:19:19Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-05-01T15:19:37Z CrazEd is now known as Guest51121 2017-05-01T15:20:56Z slyrus: so I want to draw some connected/labeled boxes/polygons and save the output as some sort of vector graphics file 2017-05-01T15:21:00Z slyrus: any recommendations? 2017-05-01T15:21:07Z slyrus: vecto could work, but it only saves to PNG :( 2017-05-01T15:21:29Z slyrus: cl-pdf could work, but there may be other approaches 2017-05-01T15:21:46Z Reinisch: is using tikz with LaTeX the wrong answer? 2017-05-01T15:21:52Z slyrus: I've thought about trying to use all the device independent graphics stuff in mcclim 2017-05-01T15:22:06Z shrdlu68: I've heard of a cl-svg. 2017-05-01T15:22:51Z slyrus: Reinisch: I didn't know about tikz. thanks! 2017-05-01T15:23:01Z Reinisch: no prob! 2017-05-01T15:23:19Z X-Scale quit (Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- It'll be on slashdot one day...) 2017-05-01T15:23:37Z teggi joined #lisp 2017-05-01T15:24:47Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-05-01T15:25:08Z MONODA` joined #lisp 2017-05-01T15:25:32Z Psydo joined #lisp 2017-05-01T15:27:36Z Psydo quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2017-05-01T15:29:12Z solidsalvia: how would I use loop to go over objects, but starting at the 4th object? 2017-05-01T15:30:12Z slyrus: still, a lispy solution to this would be nice :) 2017-05-01T15:31:24Z beach: Hello slyrus. 2017-05-01T15:31:35Z beach: solidsalvia: A list of objects? 2017-05-01T15:32:21Z solidsalvia: beach: no, just a normal list (no clos objects, sorry for the wrong terminology) 2017-05-01T15:32:33Z solidsalvia: I meant items 2017-05-01T15:32:37Z beach: solidsalvia: (loop for object in (nthcdr 3 list) do ...) 2017-05-01T15:32:37Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-05-01T15:32:55Z solidsalvia: beach: thanks! 2017-05-01T15:32:58Z beach: solidsalvia: The term `object' is fine. I was wondering about the container. 2017-05-01T15:34:05Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-01T15:36:26Z Psydo joined #lisp 2017-05-01T15:37:39Z Psydo left #lisp 2017-05-01T15:37:44Z Bike joined #lisp 2017-05-01T15:37:56Z slyrus: hey beach! 2017-05-01T15:41:22Z oleo quit (Quit: irc client terminated!) 2017-05-01T15:41:39Z oleo joined #lisp 2017-05-01T15:46:34Z wildlander joined #lisp 2017-05-01T15:50:34Z jack_rabbit quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-05-01T15:52:21Z oleo quit (Quit: irc client terminated!) 2017-05-01T15:57:58Z l04m33 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-05-01T16:02:50Z prole quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-01T16:05:57Z MONODA` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-01T16:06:14Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2017-05-01T16:08:18Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-05-01T16:08:18Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2017-05-01T16:08:18Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-05-01T16:09:47Z p9s joined #lisp 2017-05-01T16:11:40Z shrdlu68 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-01T16:12:15Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-05-01T16:12:40Z loke___ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-01T16:13:37Z barton_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-01T16:13:55Z barton_ joined #lisp 2017-05-01T16:13:55Z barton_ quit (Changing host) 2017-05-01T16:13:55Z barton_ joined #lisp 2017-05-01T16:14:57Z p9s quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-01T16:15:01Z l04m33 joined #lisp 2017-05-01T16:16:31Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2017-05-01T16:17:36Z PinealGlandOptic joined #lisp 2017-05-01T16:17:56Z barton_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-01T16:18:03Z barton_ joined #lisp 2017-05-01T16:18:54Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp 2017-05-01T16:19:45Z barton_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-01T16:20:16Z knusbaum joined #lisp 2017-05-01T16:21:26Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2017-05-01T16:22:37Z pjb joined #lisp 2017-05-01T16:30:50Z Guest9182 quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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What happens? 2017-05-01T16:39:04Z oleo_ quit (Changing host) 2017-05-01T16:39:04Z oleo_ joined #lisp 2017-05-01T16:39:37Z _death: it seems you use *hash* where you want hash 2017-05-01T16:39:42Z jackdaniel: what thing is that you don't prent key-value pair if value is a hashtable 2017-05-01T16:39:43Z solidsalvia: beach: I mean it quits working when the depth gets too great, and I want to have a reliable printer that works at any depth 2017-05-01T16:39:46Z jackdaniel: s/what/one/ 2017-05-01T16:39:46Z _death: (and hash should default to *hash*) 2017-05-01T16:39:58Z bandu joined #lisp 2017-05-01T16:40:07Z seg_ joined #lisp 2017-05-01T16:40:21Z dlowe_ joined #lisp 2017-05-01T16:40:23Z solidsalvia: err no the *hash* and hash are the same, but you're right that could cause issues 2017-05-01T16:41:11Z attila_lendvai quit (*.net *.split) 2017-05-01T16:41:11Z kobain quit (*.net *.split) 2017-05-01T16:41:11Z jackc quit (*.net *.split) 2017-05-01T16:41:12Z omilu quit (*.net *.split) 2017-05-01T16:41:12Z cyberlard quit (*.net *.split) 2017-05-01T16:41:12Z thinkpad quit (*.net *.split) 2017-05-01T16:41:12Z vert2 quit (*.net *.split) 2017-05-01T16:41:12Z srcerer quit (*.net *.split) 2017-05-01T16:41:12Z Walex quit (*.net *.split) 2017-05-01T16:41:12Z chinchilla quit (*.net *.split) 2017-05-01T16:41:12Z shpx quit (*.net *.split) 2017-05-01T16:41:13Z SlashLife quit (*.net *.split) 2017-05-01T16:41:13Z easye quit (*.net *.split) 2017-05-01T16:41:13Z seg quit (*.net *.split) 2017-05-01T16:41:13Z Lord_of_Life quit (*.net *.split) 2017-05-01T16:41:13Z jdz quit (*.net *.split) 2017-05-01T16:41:13Z tristero quit (*.net *.split) 2017-05-01T16:41:13Z nullman quit (*.net *.split) 2017-05-01T16:41:13Z dlowe quit (*.net *.split) 2017-05-01T16:41:13Z antoszka quit (*.net *.split) 2017-05-01T16:41:13Z ericmathison quit (*.net *.split) 2017-05-01T16:41:14Z c0dehero quit (*.net *.split) 2017-05-01T16:41:14Z coyo quit (*.net *.split) 2017-05-01T16:41:14Z mulk quit (*.net *.split) 2017-05-01T16:41:14Z zbigniew quit (*.net *.split) 2017-05-01T16:41:14Z jibanes quit (*.net *.split) 2017-05-01T16:41:14Z benkard is now known as mulk 2017-05-01T16:41:14Z dlowe_ is now known as dlowe 2017-05-01T16:41:52Z _death: what is the depth that's too great, and what does it mean that it "quits working" 2017-05-01T16:42:08Z beach: solidsalvia: You need to be more explicit than "break" and "quit working". Do you have an error message? 2017-05-01T16:42:28Z solidsalvia: I mean it quits printing, as in I have to add more loops 2017-05-01T16:42:39Z SlashLife joined #lisp 2017-05-01T16:42:39Z solidsalvia: sorry for not being clear 2017-05-01T16:42:40Z chinchilla joined #lisp 2017-05-01T16:43:46Z vert2 joined #lisp 2017-05-01T16:43:54Z cyberlard joined #lisp 2017-05-01T16:45:19Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-05-01T16:46:14Z thinkpad joined #lisp 2017-05-01T16:47:54Z maarhart joined #lisp 2017-05-01T16:48:20Z antoszka joined #lisp 2017-05-01T16:48:21Z Walex joined #lisp 2017-05-01T16:49:12Z tristero joined #lisp 2017-05-01T16:49:48Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2017-05-01T16:50:28Z maarhart quit (Client Quit) 2017-05-01T16:52:01Z _death: http://paste.lisp.org/display/345610 2017-05-01T16:52:29Z mejja quit (Quit: \ No newline at end of file) 2017-05-01T16:54:28Z discarde` joined #lisp 2017-05-01T16:55:06Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2017-05-01T16:55:35Z discardedes quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-01T16:59:29Z solidsalvia: _death: thank you for that! but would it be possible to print it so that if there is {:a {:b {:c 3}}} as the hash that it would print a -> b -> c? 2017-05-01T16:59:54Z _death: it is possible 2017-05-01T17:00:24Z drcode quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-05-01T17:00:37Z solidsalvia: I'm not sure how to add the state. I think I want to pass a curried function to recursive calls of maphash that has the previous level, but I am not sure how to do that in CL. 2017-05-01T17:00:47Z oleo_ quit (Quit: irc client terminated!) 2017-05-01T17:01:49Z drcode joined #lisp 2017-05-01T17:01:52Z _death: you want to pass the path 2017-05-01T17:02:43Z rlatimore joined #lisp 2017-05-01T17:03:42Z phoe: solidsalvia: add a third argument to the function that is initially "" but then in the second call you modify it to be for example "2 -> " and in the third nested to be "2 -> 40 -> " for example. 2017-05-01T17:03:58Z phoe: and print it as a prefix 2017-05-01T17:04:09Z _death: there's no need to deal with strings until doing the actual printing 2017-05-01T17:04:42Z oleo__ joined #lisp 2017-05-01T17:05:12Z solidsalvia: phoe: I want to modify the path as well, but maphash seems to only accept a function like fun(key, value) so I don't know what to do 2017-05-01T17:05:23Z solidsalvia: phoe: I mean I want to add state as well* 2017-05-01T17:05:26Z Bike: make a closure 2017-05-01T17:06:24Z _death: in short you want a function to do depth-first traversal, that also passes along the path.. then it could take a function that prints the stuff the way you want 2017-05-01T17:06:26Z solidsalvia: Bike: that's a great idea! thanks! 2017-05-01T17:06:58Z brendyn quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2017-05-01T17:12:25Z sebboh joined #lisp 2017-05-01T17:13:33Z sebboh: Hello! I am aware of some irc clients and/or irc bots available via quicklisp. However, I am not aware of any ircd (irc server) software written in CL. Am I mistaken? 2017-05-01T17:15:27Z l04m33 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-01T17:16:10Z Xach: sebboh: I haven't heard of any. 2017-05-01T17:16:14Z phoe: solidsalvia: dynamic variables 2017-05-01T17:16:23Z jackdaniel is pretty sure, that you are not mistaken regarding your own awareness ;-) regarding existance of such thing, there was lisp-irc-server I think 2017-05-01T17:16:30Z oleo__ quit (Changing host) 2017-05-01T17:16:30Z oleo__ joined #lisp 2017-05-01T17:17:01Z phoe: make a special variable *current-traversal-path* or something and whenever you travel deeper, rebind it to (concatenate 'string *current-traversal-path* "42 -> ") or something 2017-05-01T17:17:10Z l04m33 joined #lisp 2017-05-01T17:17:12Z sebboh: jd :) 2017-05-01T17:17:20Z phoe: this way the new function call picks up the rebound value. 2017-05-01T17:17:54Z sebboh: jd: I found that word on sourceforge. Thanks, I'll have a look. 2017-05-01T17:17:57Z dddddd joined #lisp 2017-05-01T17:18:28Z jackdaniel: sure 2017-05-01T17:19:26Z sebboh: Daniel McChlery wrote two lisp-irc-server projects, one replaces the other. Latest 2011, four commits. Well that's more than mine. :) 2017-05-01T17:19:58Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2017-05-01T17:23:43Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-05-01T17:24:40Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-01T17:24:48Z whiteline joined #lisp 2017-05-01T17:25:57Z _rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-01T17:26:19Z andrew_deane_ joined #lisp 2017-05-01T17:33:25Z Guest61766 quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-05-01T17:46:43Z manualcrank joined #lisp 2017-05-01T17:49:49Z andrew_deane_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-05-01T17:57:19Z yrk joined #lisp 2017-05-01T17:57:54Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2017-05-01T17:57:54Z yrk joined #lisp 2017-05-01T17:58:12Z jasom joined #lisp 2017-05-01T18:04:30Z rlatimore quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.7.1) 2017-05-01T18:07:16Z easye joined #lisp 2017-05-01T18:07:17Z jdz joined #lisp 2017-05-01T18:07:20Z varjag joined #lisp 2017-05-01T18:09:35Z c0dehero joined #lisp 2017-05-01T18:09:59Z solidsalvia: this is what I ended up with... is this okay code? or is there a better way to do this? https://gist.github.com/solidsalvia/5b648aa1879a8b91176f982461fdfbaa 2017-05-01T18:10:00Z raynold joined #lisp 2017-05-01T18:11:23Z ghard`` quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-05-01T18:14:13Z lerax__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-05-01T18:15:21Z lerax__ joined #lisp 2017-05-01T18:17:03Z iskander joined #lisp 2017-05-01T18:17:33Z hazz joined #lisp 2017-05-01T18:17:52Z dlowe: the market for lisp servers is incredibly narrow 2017-05-01T18:19:08Z iskander left #lisp 2017-05-01T18:19:24Z dlowe: solidsalvia: I don't see the point of making the argument optional. I'd use a cond instead of if/progn. You should use ~s instead of ~a for readable values. 2017-05-01T18:19:55Z hexfive joined #lisp 2017-05-01T18:20:42Z dlowe: (if (not (eql level '()) (progn ...)) is better done as (when level ...) 2017-05-01T18:21:30Z dlowe: print-level is small enough to be part of print-hash-entry 2017-05-01T18:22:04Z msb quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-05-01T18:22:12Z dlowe: print-level also prints the levels in reverse order, which seems counter-intuitive. 2017-05-01T18:23:04Z dlowe: Never mind about being part of print-hash-entry. I didn't see the recursion at first. 2017-05-01T18:25:45Z wheelsucker joined #lisp 2017-05-01T18:26:41Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2017-05-01T18:28:14Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-05-01T18:28:25Z msb joined #lisp 2017-05-01T18:29:45Z teggi quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2017-05-01T18:30:07Z Sauvin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-05-01T18:30:30Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-05-01T18:30:30Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2017-05-01T18:30:30Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-05-01T18:39:45Z shrdlu68: Someone said Norvig had a new talk. Link? 2017-05-01T18:42:25Z jackdaniel: shrdlu68: check out on reddit 2017-05-01T18:42:33Z jackdaniel: its there 2017-05-01T18:42:40Z jackdaniel: it's 2017-05-01T18:42:46Z shrdlu68: Ok. Thanks. 2017-05-01T18:46:33Z discarde` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-01T18:51:11Z gacepa joined #lisp 2017-05-01T18:52:47Z mazoe_ joined #lisp 2017-05-01T18:55:42Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2017-05-01T18:58:22Z knusbaum quit (Quit: BYE) 2017-05-01T19:05:15Z tmc quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-05-01T19:05:30Z tmc joined #lisp 2017-05-01T19:09:00Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-05-01T19:09:23Z alphor quit (Quit: Bye!) 2017-05-01T19:13:01Z p9s joined #lisp 2017-05-01T19:18:00Z _paul0 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-05-01T19:18:17Z p9s quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-05-01T19:20:23Z trystero joined #lisp 2017-05-01T19:20:24Z tristero quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-05-01T19:33:30Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2017-05-01T19:35:08Z SAL9000: Is there a more modern alternative to CL-YACC? 2017-05-01T19:35:34Z SAL9000: I already have a lexer (graylex) 2017-05-01T19:39:44Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-05-01T19:49:41Z dlowe: SAL9000: I like esrap 2017-05-01T19:50:14Z SAL9000: dlowe: esrap is nice, but it can't accept already-lexed input 2017-05-01T19:50:53Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-01T19:54:06Z namosca joined #lisp 2017-05-01T19:54:13Z namosca left #lisp 2017-05-01T19:56:06Z dlowe: huh, you're right. That's a shame. 2017-05-01T19:56:20Z daemoz: o/ morning all 2017-05-01T19:57:02Z Ven joined #lisp 2017-05-01T19:57:26Z Ven is now known as Guest7768 2017-05-01T19:57:30Z mazoe_ quit (Quit: mazoe_) 2017-05-01T20:02:33Z Guest7768 is now known as Ven` 2017-05-01T20:02:42Z Ven` is now known as Ven`` 2017-05-01T20:03:40Z _rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-05-01T20:07:09Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-01T20:07:23Z ghard`` joined #lisp 2017-05-01T20:07:34Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2017-05-01T20:09:40Z vaporatorius quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-01T20:12:26Z ghard`` quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-05-01T20:13:12Z shrdlu68 left #lisp 2017-05-01T20:16:00Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-01T20:18:16Z Ven`` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-05-01T20:18:34Z nirved quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-05-01T20:20:15Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2017-05-01T20:21:10Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2017-05-01T20:26:17Z EvW1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-01T20:26:42Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2017-05-01T20:27:45Z yrdz joined #lisp 2017-05-01T20:29:48Z paul0 joined #lisp 2017-05-01T20:30:29Z zooey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-01T20:30:46Z zooey joined #lisp 2017-05-01T20:33:59Z pjstirling quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-01T20:35:08Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-01T20:37:09Z trystero is now known as tristero 2017-05-01T20:39:35Z grublet quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-01T20:41:51Z hhdave joined #lisp 2017-05-01T20:43:08Z vydd joined #lisp 2017-05-01T20:43:08Z vydd quit (Changing host) 2017-05-01T20:43:08Z vydd joined #lisp 2017-05-01T20:46:41Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-05-01T20:49:58Z prole joined #lisp 2017-05-01T20:50:10Z jasom: there are several tools for writing recursive-decent parsers (e.g. parser-combinators, smug, and meta) 2017-05-01T20:50:19Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-05-01T20:50:19Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2017-05-01T20:50:19Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2017-05-01T20:51:22Z SAL9000: jasom: would any of those work well for already-lexed text? parser-combinators is apparently still "not suitable for production" 2017-05-01T20:52:12Z jasom: SAL9000: I have used smug on already lexed text; meta shows an example of parsing on lists in the paper that was the basis of it. 2017-05-01T20:57:51Z theseb joined #lisp 2017-05-01T20:58:17Z theseb: i'm reading HtDP and it says strings are not atomic..is that right? 2017-05-01T20:58:21Z jasom: SAL9000: looking at the source, meta can handle strings and lists of things that can be compared by "eql". Adding the ability to match other things would be a dozen lines of code 2017-05-01T20:58:35Z theseb: i thought lisp has atoms and lists 2017-05-01T20:58:44Z theseb: or atoms and cons 2017-05-01T20:58:48Z theseb: then what is a string!? 2017-05-01T20:58:50Z jasom: what is "HtDP"? 2017-05-01T20:58:56Z theseb: How To Design Programs 2017-05-01T20:59:03Z theseb: Racket (Scheme) book 2017-05-01T20:59:26Z Bike: strings are atoms 2017-05-01T20:59:29Z jasom: well in scheme, it's possible that strings are not atoms. In Lisp, strings are atoms 2017-05-01T20:59:44Z SAL9000: jasom: my lexer outputs (cons symbol string) for each token 2017-05-01T20:59:46Z Bike: they might not be "atomic" because they have stuff in them 2017-05-01T20:59:49Z SAL9000: so it should be OK 2017-05-01T21:00:08Z jasom: SAL9000: well that means meta won't work, but it could be made to work fairly easily 2017-05-01T21:00:54Z theseb: Bike, jasom: how can strings be atoms in one lisp but not another......don't all atoms have "stuff" in them? 2017-05-01T21:01:09Z SAL9000: I've been trying to grok the paper, so far it's pretty impenetrable 2017-05-01T21:01:09Z Bike: i don't think scheme has a formal definition of "atom" 2017-05-01T21:01:24Z theseb: Bike: i've been using "singles" myself lately 2017-05-01T21:01:38Z theseb: Bike: where lists are composed of "singles" and/or lists 2017-05-01T21:01:58Z Bike: that sounds like atom to me 2017-05-01T21:02:05Z theseb: right 2017-05-01T21:02:06Z jasom: theseb: the original lisp specification lacked strings, so various decendents thereof could have differing opinions of if a string is an atom 2017-05-01T21:02:18Z theseb: jasom: aha! that splains it 2017-05-01T21:02:44Z theseb: atom in science means "indivisible" but that makes no sense here since you can divide strings into substrings 2017-05-01T21:03:05Z jasom: theseb: for historical reasons, in CL the type ATOM is a synonym for (NOT CONS). 2017-05-01T21:03:12Z theseb: a pedantic lisp would only have CHARS and treat strings as lists of CHARS...that'd be awesome 2017-05-01T21:03:21Z Bike: and atoms are made of quarks. terminology is weird sometimes. 2017-05-01T21:03:55Z jasom: theseb: originally it had no chars either; strings were represented with symbols 2017-05-01T21:03:57Z Bike: haskell has strings be lists of characters. it's not very efficient and there's a different "text" type for constant time access. iirc. 2017-05-01T21:04:01Z sebboh: theseb, are chars some specific bitsize? 2017-05-01T21:04:23Z jasom: sebboh: chars are exactly 24 bits now, will be so always and always have been :P 2017-05-01T21:04:41Z theseb: sebboh: that never comes up because chars are symbolic like unicode symbols 2017-05-01T21:05:03Z theseb: sebboh: you're asking about implementation details which are hidden from the user.....how is that for a retort? 2017-05-01T21:05:07Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-05-01T21:05:25Z sebboh: Not sure why my question warranted a retort. 2017-05-01T21:05:35Z theseb: sebboh: s/retort/reply 2017-05-01T21:05:42Z theseb: sebboh: just trying to sound smart 2017-05-01T21:06:08Z theseb: Bike: wait so haskell is the promised land of mathematical purity 2017-05-01T21:06:10Z theseb: ? 2017-05-01T21:06:13Z theseb: shweet 2017-05-01T21:06:32Z Bike: as you like it 2017-05-01T21:07:04Z sebboh: I'm just saying a char is a sequence of bits, and so is a string. So there is an argument there for a string to be an atom... Though, as anybody can see, a string is composed of chars, thus not an atom. Room for opinion. 2017-05-01T21:07:09Z theseb: jasom: btw...surprised no one said that chars could be represented by INTEGERS and so we don't "need" chars either 2017-05-01T21:07:18Z theseb: basically we only need ints 2017-05-01T21:07:20Z theseb: game over 2017-05-01T21:07:32Z varjag: and C already won it 2017-05-01T21:07:34Z sebboh: s/sequence of bits/integers/g sure. 2017-05-01T21:08:33Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-01T21:09:21Z kjak__: theseb: of course. "God made the integers, all the rest is the work of man." 2017-05-01T21:09:50Z theseb: sebboh: after a lot of pain i learned the way to not go crazy with Unicode is to pretend there are only 2 string types in comp sci......"Unicode glyphs" and bit strings 2017-05-01T21:10:03Z sebboh: well, primes. God made the primes. Non-prime integers are clearly the work of men. 2017-05-01T21:10:12Z theseb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-01T21:10:17Z Bike: i have the book titled that and naturally it just starts with pure geometry. 2017-05-01T21:10:53Z theseb joined #lisp 2017-05-01T21:11:53Z sebboh: What's that mechanism for expressing each integer as a unique list of primes? Godot numbering? Something like that. Great stuff. 2017-05-01T21:12:02Z theseb: sebboh: yup 2017-05-01T21:12:05Z theseb: Godel numbering! 2017-05-01T21:12:12Z sebboh: godel! yes, sorry. 2017-05-01T21:12:24Z theseb: sebboh: in my world there are only 2 strings types....bit strings and glyph (e.g. Unicode) strings 2017-05-01T21:12:42Z theseb: 1 has only 2 symbols...the other has a ton of symbols 2017-05-01T21:12:50Z theseb: that's the deal 2017-05-01T21:12:55Z jasom: does unicode define what is a glyph? 2017-05-01T21:13:14Z jasom: in some scripts it's non-obvious which sequence of code-points delineate a glyph 2017-05-01T21:13:25Z theseb: jasom: if i recall..unicode has symbols denoted by integers 2017-05-01T21:13:34Z theseb: jasom: and the integers are called "code points" for some reason 2017-05-01T21:13:40Z sebboh: I think the joke here is that every "unicode glyph" has one or five bitstrings that represent it. 2017-05-01T21:13:46Z jasom: theseb: right, but those are code-points. Some code-points combine to make a single glyph 2017-05-01T21:13:48Z theseb: so even there you have this distinction between glyphs and bits 2017-05-01T21:14:56Z theseb: jasom: maybe i'm misunderstanding code point.....i just wanted to say you got Unicode symbols and their ints 2017-05-01T21:15:12Z pve quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-05-01T21:15:33Z jasom: some googling tells me we are both wrong; a glyph is a specific representation of a character, so an "A" in two different fonts would be different glyphs 2017-05-01T21:15:44Z wheelsucker quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-01T21:16:01Z ioa quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-05-01T21:16:44Z solidsalvia quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-05-01T21:17:58Z hyero quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-01T21:18:15Z sebboh: Maybe unicode is relevant to CL in some way, in some official way or something.. but from one point of view, mine, it's just a big lookup table, and a messy one at that. Each possible bitstring should map to one or zero unicode code points or glyphs or whatever. Incidentally, the ratio of mapable bitstrings to unmapable ones is vanishingly small. 2017-05-01T21:18:39Z Ven_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-05-01T21:19:03Z theseb: jasom: ug....now that's getting confusing.....2 "glyphs" can represent the same "character" 2017-05-01T21:19:24Z theseb: jasom: so we got at least 3 layers now ....glyphs -> chars -> ints 2017-05-01T21:19:35Z jasom: theseb: that's not at all confusing. In handwriting, no two letters ever look the same, but they all represent the same abstract concept. 2017-05-01T21:20:34Z theseb: yea 2017-05-01T21:21:35Z jasom: so a grapheme (a slightly more precise term than "character") is a platonic ideal, and a "glyph" is a concrete instance of a grapheme 2017-05-01T21:21:39Z theseb: jasom: i don't know if they did this for unicode but if they were really hardcore they have an ordered pair for each glyph......1 for the char (abstract concept) and another for the specific variation 2017-05-01T21:22:05Z theseb: jasom: so that way unicode would take care of both of my "layers"....visual and abstract concept 2017-05-01T21:22:31Z theseb: jasom: to use your lang.....it would be nice if unicode embedded grapheme info 2017-05-01T21:22:55Z jasom: theseb: unicode specifies only at the grapheme layer, not above; it's fonts that render graphemes into glyphs 2017-05-01T21:23:08Z sebboh: theseb, you know about the alternative selector right? 2017-05-01T21:23:31Z theseb: no 2017-05-01T21:24:30Z theseb: jasom: whoa....now you're claiming unicode doesn't have visual specs no? 2017-05-01T21:24:56Z theseb: jasom: grapheme is the abstract concept not the visual (glyph) 2017-05-01T21:25:28Z theseb: jasom: so ASCII says some int = "A" but doesn't say how to express that letter...ug this is making my brain hurt 2017-05-01T21:25:31Z jasom: theseb: unicode does have visual specs, but just in order to communicate which grapheme they are talking about 2017-05-01T21:25:54Z ioa joined #lisp 2017-05-01T21:26:14Z theseb: jasom: yea....the docs will say..."this int = 2nd letter of greek alphabet" and give a picture of beta 2017-05-01T21:26:23Z jasom: Also, unicode is pan-lingual, so if you are in a japanese or chinese locale, the appropriate glyph for a grapheme may be very different 2017-05-01T21:26:27Z theseb: but they aren't claiming you must draw beta like their docs 2017-05-01T21:26:28Z theseb: wow 2017-05-01T21:26:29Z theseb: ok 2017-05-01T21:27:13Z theseb: jasom: that's bad 2017-05-01T21:27:29Z theseb: jasom: if a grapheme has multiple glyphs we're toast 2017-05-01T21:27:36Z theseb: too confusing 2017-05-01T21:27:45Z jasom: Compare: é é sameglyph, different sequences of code points 2017-05-01T21:29:27Z DGASAU: theseb: А and A are the same grapheme, I'm not sure what unicode calls "glyph". 2017-05-01T21:29:46Z theseb: jasom: why did unicode have to separate those? why not just have 1 code point for that? 2017-05-01T21:30:09Z gacepa quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2017-05-01T21:30:49Z heurist` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2017-05-01T21:30:52Z DGASAU: jasom: unicode is definitely not pan-lingual. 2017-05-01T21:31:09Z DGASAU: Last time I couldn't find all letters for Ostjak language(s). 2017-05-01T21:31:17Z mhd joined #lisp 2017-05-01T21:31:47Z sellout- joined #lisp 2017-05-01T21:31:59Z DGASAU: jasom: though you are welcome to prove I'm wrong. :) 2017-05-01T21:32:10Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-01T21:33:10Z heurist` joined #lisp 2017-05-01T21:34:20Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-05-01T21:34:47Z shifty joined #lisp 2017-05-01T21:34:50Z DGASAU: (It is an irony that you can two letters for Old Russian that are known to be used only twice or thrice in all known sources, but you can't find two or three letters for existing language.) 2017-05-01T21:35:42Z jasom: DGASAU: okay it aspires to be pan-lingual, and it certainly is multi-lingual. 2017-05-01T21:36:32Z bigos_ joined #lisp 2017-05-01T21:36:59Z kushal joined #lisp 2017-05-01T21:37:23Z kushal is now known as Guest62443 2017-05-01T21:38:00Z jasom: theseb: that's specifcically to be backwards-compatible with latin-1 2017-05-01T21:38:24Z Fare joined #lisp 2017-05-01T21:38:35Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2017-05-01T21:38:55Z jasom: see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unicode_equivalence and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_unification for a few places where unicode devicates from what one might think 2017-05-01T21:39:41Z jasom: DGASAU: it's not too hard to get characters added to unicode; anybody can submit a proposal 2017-05-01T21:40:13Z DGASAU has had enough headache from Turkish recently, so I'm not going to dive into all those Tibetan weirdness. 2017-05-01T21:41:04Z jasom thought ostjak was siberian 2017-05-01T21:41:44Z Bike: they added tangut not long ago, and that's mainly known for using chinese in a crazy way and being burned down by chinggis khan, so there's probably space for ostjak 2017-05-01T21:41:45Z DGASAU: Ugric. 2017-05-01T21:42:08Z mhd quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2017-05-01T21:42:30Z mhd joined #lisp 2017-05-01T21:43:06Z mhd quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2017-05-01T21:43:06Z mhd quit (Client Quit) 2017-05-01T21:43:57Z DGASAU: Anyway, I'm not sure that we should try to preserve those minority languages that got their own script only because of Soviet literacy policy of 1930-ies. 2017-05-01T21:47:21Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2017-05-01T21:47:38Z TMA: DGASAU: vero. non est valor in eis. litterae viginti quattuor idoneae ad usum, pluris non necesse 2017-05-01T21:48:10Z jerme quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2017-05-01T21:48:23Z DGASAU: TMA: я без понятия, что ты там накарябал :) 2017-05-01T21:48:29Z PinealGlandOptic quit (Quit: leaving) 2017-05-01T21:49:40Z TMA: DGASAU: I would appreciate it much more, if I could see something other than a row of space-separated crossed out rectangles 2017-05-01T21:50:27Z Bike: for just cyrillic? weak 2017-05-01T21:50:37Z sebboh: on freenode via ERC in emacs in tmux in lxterminal, looks cyrillic here. 2017-05-01T21:50:48Z SAL9000: on weechat, ditto 2017-05-01T21:51:00Z Bike: there's not a multiocular O in sight 2017-05-01T21:51:48Z SAL9000: TMA: https://superuser.com/questions/904984/how-to-fix-my-locale-to-display-unicode-correctly-in-irssi 2017-05-01T21:56:06Z yrdz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-05-01T21:56:16Z DGASAU: jasom: Ostjak language(s) is/are the next closest ones to Magyar, FYI. 2017-05-01T21:57:20Z TMA: Source Code Pro apparently lacks cyrillic :( 2017-05-01T21:57:24Z DGASAU: It is weird, but they did travel that far back in those days, from Central Siberia into Central Europe. 2017-05-01T21:58:24Z DGASAU: (Kalmyks did approximately the same half-thousand years later.) 2017-05-01T22:00:57Z yrk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-05-01T22:01:27Z eazar001 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2017-05-01T22:03:05Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-05-01T22:07:00Z _rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-05-01T22:08:10Z ghard`` joined #lisp 2017-05-01T22:08:57Z TMA: DGASAU: i said (roughly): true dat. they're worthless. 24 letters are useful, more not necessary 2017-05-01T22:09:03Z knicklux quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-05-01T22:13:08Z ghard`` quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-05-01T22:14:00Z anaximander joined #lisp 2017-05-01T22:16:11Z yoosi quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.7.1) 2017-05-01T22:16:20Z MoALTz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-05-01T22:19:03Z DGASAU: TMA: 24 letters are not enough for sure, we have 40 phonemes in language. 2017-05-01T22:21:28Z jasom: DGASAU: that's what digraphs are for : 2017-05-01T22:22:05Z DGASAU: jasom: digraphs are bad idea in general and in particular too. 2017-05-01T22:22:26Z jasom: english even uses digraphs for sounds that already have a single character to represent them 2017-05-01T22:23:58Z DGASAU: Russian uses kind of synharmonic rules, and it causes problems already. 2017-05-01T22:26:51Z p9s joined #lisp 2017-05-01T22:27:12Z p9s quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-01T22:27:16Z p9s_ joined #lisp 2017-05-01T22:27:54Z p9s_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-01T22:28:04Z p9s joined #lisp 2017-05-01T22:28:42Z p9s quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-01T22:28:52Z p9s joined #lisp 2017-05-01T22:29:30Z p9s quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-01T22:29:49Z p9s joined #lisp 2017-05-01T22:30:28Z p9s quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-05-01T22:30:29Z p9s_ joined #lisp 2017-05-01T22:31:06Z p9s_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-01T22:32:17Z scottj joined #lisp 2017-05-01T22:34:37Z theseb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-01T22:37:25Z mhd joined #lisp 2017-05-01T22:40:25Z practica` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-05-01T22:42:36Z tocky joined #lisp 2017-05-01T22:47:40Z yrdz joined #lisp 2017-05-01T22:49:08Z sz0 joined #lisp 2017-05-01T22:49:18Z mhd: Re quicklisp, Having trouble with symbolic link in ~/quicklisp/local-projects/. Allegro on Linux seems to ignore the link and download/load from quicklisp dist 2017-05-01T22:50:14Z oleo__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-05-01T22:51:24Z akkad_: mhd move the real dir to the local-projects, and symlink from it. see if that works 2017-05-01T22:51:32Z akkad_: same issue here with 10.1 2017-05-01T22:53:20Z mhd: @akkad_ are you just saying to have the real dir in local-projects, because I'd tried that, and that works. 2017-05-01T22:54:14Z mhd: But is this a bug? Known? Any workarounds known? 2017-05-01T22:54:24Z mhd: @Xach ? 2017-05-01T22:55:56Z sebboh: See this class? https://github.com/jorams/birch/blob/7f70362dba2c59bb61e9419d998407bdc62ea00b/src/events.lisp#L140 And then the subclass on line 209? 2017-05-01T22:56:33Z sebboh: I was able to define a method that processes the privmsg event, but I wasn't able to create a method that fires for any type of event. 2017-05-01T22:57:23Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-05-01T22:57:35Z sebboh: 'Cause I don't know what I'm doing, yet. I guess. Is it possible for me to create a method which will fire for any of the *-event subclasses defined in this file? 2017-05-01T22:59:33Z sebboh: The handler I have in mind for "every type of event" prints a message to the console, so I can see when the server sends a PING, which I guess this thing is responding to already, but of course that's not the same as seeing it. 2017-05-01T23:00:02Z sebboh: HEre's what I used to log privmsgs: (defmethod handle-event ((connection my-connection) (event privmsg-event)) (log:info "Message received on ~A: ~A" (channel event) (message event))) 2017-05-01T23:00:33Z Bike: so how's it work if you specialize on event instead of privmsg-event? 2017-05-01T23:01:37Z sebboh: well, it says undefined function EVENT 2017-05-01T23:02:05Z sebboh: Because apparently I have a couple of hams for hands, or something. 2017-05-01T23:02:23Z sebboh: Changing (event privmsg-event) to (event event) was what I tried first. 2017-05-01T23:03:05Z Bike: ...so what did it do 2017-05-01T23:03:10Z oleo_ joined #lisp 2017-05-01T23:03:59Z sebboh: it said undefined function EVENT. But I think I was misreading that, I also changed another part at the same time... gah, ham hands indeed. 2017-05-01T23:04:55Z AntiSpamMeta quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2017-05-01T23:05:08Z AntiSpamMeta joined #lisp 2017-05-01T23:07:04Z sebboh: ok, so, initially, I did the correct thing in the .. defmethod signature part, for lack of a better term. But I screwed up the body, and then misread the warning. Anyway, fixed now. Thanks. I think. :) 2017-05-01T23:07:40Z akkad_: mhd: this is not slack/twitter. 2017-05-01T23:08:04Z Bike: thanking me is always the correct course of action 2017-05-01T23:08:30Z mhd: @Xach, @akkad_ I also tried this on ccl/MacOS and sbcl/MacOS, and got the same (bad) behavior for ccl/MacOS. But it worked right on sbcl/MacOS 2017-05-01T23:09:06Z akkad_: mhd: is the symlink relative? or absolute? 2017-05-01T23:09:11Z sebboh: mhd, when akkad_ said "this isn't twitter/slack", this means please don't use @ like that here. 2017-05-01T23:09:20Z akkad_: @Xach should give me a snail 2017-05-01T23:09:21Z mhd: sorry akkad_, though I think the @ cat is out of the bag 2017-05-01T23:10:20Z sebboh: @ has special meaning on IRC, older than other uses. Elsewhere, it means some user, any user. Here, it means a special user, one with authority in this channel. 2017-05-01T23:10:36Z mhd: akkad_ the symlink is absolute 2017-05-01T23:11:04Z safe joined #lisp 2017-05-01T23:11:14Z mhd: ok sebboh thanks 2017-05-01T23:13:56Z ioa quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2017-05-01T23:17:01Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2017-05-01T23:17:16Z mhd: Xach, akkad_ also on Allegro if the sym link is done after having loaded the system from the quicklisp's own dist, quickload hangs forever, down under quicklisp::local-project-system-files. Removing cached compiled files seems to be workaround, i.e., some subset of rm -rf ~/.cache/common-lisp/ 2017-05-01T23:17:23Z akkad_: mhd iirc you have to enable :follow-symlink t in the ql code 2017-05-01T23:17:52Z mhd: Recall from? Is there a writeup about this somewhere? 2017-05-01T23:17:53Z akkad_: something along those lines 2017-05-01T23:18:22Z Tristam quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-01T23:20:34Z akkad_ is now known as akkad 2017-05-01T23:22:29Z jasom: mhd: symlinks to directories are unreliabe for asdf directory traversal 2017-05-01T23:22:37Z jasom: mhd: specifically sbcl traverses them and ccl does not 2017-05-01T23:22:43Z bigos_: https://emacs.stackexchange.com/questions/32518/does-slime-repl-ansi-color-work-at-all-these-days 2017-05-01T23:23:47Z tocky quit (Quit: My MacBook Air has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-05-01T23:24:06Z mhd: ASDF tells you to rely on Quicklisp (If you’re using some tool to install software (e.g. Quicklisp), the authors of that tool should already have configured ASDF.) 2017-05-01T23:24:30Z mhd: Quicklisp says you can do this using sym links 2017-05-01T23:24:38Z jasom: mhd: quicklisp is built ontop of asdf; assuming it uses the same code for traversing directories, it will not work. 2017-05-01T23:25:13Z bigos_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-05-01T23:25:18Z bigos quit (Quit: Leaving) 2017-05-01T23:25:20Z orivej joined #lisp 2017-05-01T23:26:02Z bigos joined #lisp 2017-05-01T23:27:14Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-05-01T23:29:40Z jasom: mhd: after googling, it should work on clisp, ecl, and "recent enough" sbcl, ccl. Double check that you have the latest client and a recent ccl; I don't know that it's been tested on allegro. 2017-05-01T23:29:53Z Fare: jackdaniel, sorry I missed you at ELS 2017-05-01T23:30:04Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-05-01T23:30:50Z mhd: my googling sucks, jason, can you send a link or links, or what you searched for? 2017-05-01T23:31:08Z mhd: jasom sorry 2017-05-01T23:31:29Z jasom: mhd: I googled for: quicklisp local-projects symlink; some links found: http://blog.quicklisp.org/2011/11/local-projects-update.html http://blog.quicklisp.org/2011/11/november-quicklisp-updates.html 2017-05-01T23:31:44Z mhd: ty 2017-05-01T23:31:51Z tocky joined #lisp 2017-05-01T23:32:08Z jasom: The latter one announces the feature and says symlinks are known to work on ecl and clisp, but not on sbcl, ccl. The second says that ccl and sbcl have accepted patches to make it work. Allegro and lispworks are not mentioned. 2017-05-01T23:32:25Z jasom: s/second/first 2017-05-01T23:34:36Z vydd quit 2017-05-01T23:35:11Z Fare: mhd: the behavior of cl:directory wrt symlinks is unspecified. If you use symlinked directories, you lose 2017-05-01T23:35:40Z Fare: well, depends on which version of asdf, which implementation, which platform, etc. 2017-05-01T23:35:42Z knusbaum joined #lisp 2017-05-01T23:35:47Z jasom: Fare: quicklisp has implementation specific workarounds for this case it seems. 2017-05-01T23:35:57Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2017-05-01T23:36:00Z mhd: Wow, that article on local-projects is so old: 2011-11-26 2017-05-01T23:36:47Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Hibernate, reboot, exeunt, etc.) 2017-05-01T23:38:03Z mhd: It seems ASDF and Quicklisp's high level doc should flag this 2017-05-01T23:40:14Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2017-05-01T23:41:57Z tocky quit (Quit: My MacBook Air has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2017-05-01T23:42:56Z mhd quit (Ping timeout: 180 seconds) 2017-05-01T23:43:59Z oleo_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2017-05-01T23:44:05Z Fare: mhd: earlier ASDF 3 tried to avoid symlinked directories on implementations that would let it (including SBCL and more); 2017-05-01T23:44:29Z mhd quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2017-05-01T23:45:01Z Fare: later ASDF 3.1.x (and now 3.2.x) will accept symlinked directories on implementations that support them (including SBCL and more) and avoid infinite loops by maintaining a hashtable. 2017-05-01T23:48:50Z oleo joined #lisp 2017-05-01T23:49:33Z wildlander quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2017-05-01T23:49:46Z pjb quit (Quit: Be seeing you!) 2017-05-01T23:55:43Z Xach: Quicklisp does not use asdf for local-projects search. 2017-05-01T23:57:14Z dbjergaard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2017-05-01T23:57:52Z prole quit (Remote host closed the connection)