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2016-12-01T00:00:40Z White_Flame: but there are certainly good practices and rules of thumb to follow, without going to extremes
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2016-12-01T00:01:16Z whartung: no, but perhaps in that instance the "2" is rather important to the proces going on, and a quick  "Bumping by 2 to skip filler byte" might be useful
2016-12-01T00:01:24Z White_Flame: exactly
2016-12-01T00:02:35Z fiddlerwoaroof just received a hardcopy of PAIP
2016-12-01T00:02:46Z shka: nice!
2016-12-01T00:02:50Z shka: i have one as well
2016-12-01T00:02:53Z whartung: heh wow
2016-12-01T00:02:57Z shka: good night
2016-12-01T00:03:08Z shka: oh, moment
2016-12-01T00:03:52Z shka: i'm looking for example of CL-PREVALENCE in action
2016-12-01T00:03:55Z whartung: yea, I've had that one for *cough* 22 years...
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2016-12-01T00:06:03Z akkad: shka: just looking to store objects? cl-store is great
2016-12-01T00:06:37Z shka: i can use cl-store
2016-12-01T00:06:42Z shka: thanks
2016-12-01T00:06:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: Did you decide against manardb?
2016-12-01T00:07:27Z shka: no, it is just for that slack bot we will be writing tomorrow
2016-12-01T00:07:43Z shka: i need something as simple, as possible
2016-12-01T00:07:56Z whartung: I haven't heard of prevalance in years...
2016-12-01T00:08:17Z shka: i was using it in the past
2016-12-01T00:08:22Z shka: was working fine
2016-12-01T00:08:23Z whartung: Clisp, OpenMCL and Allegro CL do not support serializing structure instances. :( wow bummer
2016-12-01T00:08:25Z _death: fact-base is also simple
2016-12-01T00:08:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: shka: you might just consider dumping JSON into files, since you'll have to deal with JSON for the slackbot anyways
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2016-12-01T00:09:34Z shka: fiddlerwoaroof: i don't like json that much
2016-12-01T00:09:44Z shka: cl-store seems to be just fine
2016-12-01T00:09:50Z shka: ok, enough of that
2016-12-01T00:09:57Z shka: i need to go to work tomorrow
2016-12-01T00:10:02Z shka: or actually today :/
2016-12-01T00:10:07Z shka: good night!
2016-12-01T00:10:18Z whartung: that's funny, because in Clisp, structs are implemented as CLOS instances...
2016-12-01T00:10:56Z shka: whartung: more like objects with struct metaclass
2016-12-01T00:11:37Z akkad: manardb ftw
2016-12-01T00:11:49Z akkad: shka:manardb works on sbcl/allegro/lispworks/ccl fine
2016-12-01T00:12:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: shka: well, you're going to have to deal with JSON anyways for a slackbot, if you use the websocket API
2016-12-01T00:12:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: You could also use a web framework, webhooks and the rest api, I suppsoe
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2016-12-01T00:17:32Z akkad has some docs for manardb to commit to the fork
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2016-12-01T00:43:10Z xqbt: Hi guys. I am trying to turn my program into a package. So, what I have done so far is this. First, I created package.lisp file in which I wrote defpackage with exported functions and usual :use :cl stuff. Second, I created asd file with defsystem and listed the my project's file's with it.
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2016-12-01T00:43:23Z xqbt: Now, I use alexandria library, do I just need to list it in depends-on of defsystem?
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2016-12-01T00:46:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah
2016-12-01T00:47:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: If you want to load it via ASDF or Quicklisp, you also have to put it somewhere ASDF can find it
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2016-12-01T00:48:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: for example ln -s $MY_SYSTEM_ROOT_DIRECTORY $HOME/quicklisp/local-projects/
2016-12-01T00:48:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: (on unix-likes, at least)
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2016-12-01T00:49:56Z xqbt: fiddlerwoarroof: ok, i will put the project in a place where asdf can find it. I want to probably use quicklisp in the future though. Is using asdf:defsystem OK?
2016-12-01T00:50:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yes, quicklisp is built on ASDF: it's just a way to find and load ASDF systems
2016-12-01T00:51:51Z xqbt: oh, I see. And about alexandria, after listing it in depends-on, do I still need to ql:quickload it somewhere in my project?
2016-12-01T00:53:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: No, when you ql:quickload your project, it'll pull in alexandria automatically
2016-12-01T00:53:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: quickproject is an easy way to get started with an ASDF system.
2016-12-01T00:54:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: http://www.xach.com/lisp/quickproject/
2016-12-01T00:55:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: xqbt: http://xach.livejournal.com/278047.html
2016-12-01T00:56:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: Especially the last comment
2016-12-01T00:56:54Z xqbt: fiddlerwoaroof: thank you, right on it
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2016-12-01T01:06:14Z akkad: shka: there is a fork for osx/bsd that does not use mremap.
2016-12-01T01:06:43Z akkad: shka: http://github.com/ober/manardb is a fork of the work done with additional docs to be added
2016-12-01T01:11:06Z xqbt: fiddlerwoaroof: so, I threw my project into ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ and so .asd file is now located at ~/quicklisp/local-projects/cl-neat/cl-neat.asd but executing (ql:quickload cl-neat) errors "cl-neat is unbounded". What did I miss...
2016-12-01T01:11:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: You have to make cl-neat a string or a keyword
2016-12-01T01:11:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: Lisp thinks it a variable the way you specified it there.
2016-12-01T01:11:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: (i.e. (ql:quickload :cl-neat))
2016-12-01T01:11:07Z xqbt: ooooh
2016-12-01T01:11:07Z xqbt: i will try it
2016-12-01T01:11:07Z xqbt: nice, the error is gone, thanks!
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2016-12-01T01:50:52Z krwq: hey, how do you export (defun (setf xyz)) in a package definition?
2016-12-01T01:52:15Z warweasle: krwq: Just #:xyz
2016-12-01T01:52:43Z krwq: thanks warweasle!
2016-12-01T01:53:27Z krwq: i am planning to export both but just wondering if i wanted to have setf be accessible only in the package is there a way to export xyz but not setf xyz?
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2016-12-01T01:54:58Z White_Flame: you export symbols, not functionality
2016-12-01T01:55:14Z axion: Yeah, just don't import :cl
2016-12-01T01:55:27Z White_Flame: if you export xyz, then (setf xyz), slot-value of xyz, etc all become visible
2016-12-01T01:57:08Z krwq: i see - thank you!
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2016-12-01T02:05:16Z krwq: also another question: when you get compile error in slime (i.e. when writing your package and quickloading it), is there some way of figuring out where in the code that is? I'm getting some cryptic error and no line number or an approximate place where that is
2016-12-01T02:05:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: The repl buffer sometimes have information not in the debugger
2016-12-01T02:06:22Z krwq: what do you mean?
2016-12-01T02:07:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: You should have a buffer *slime-repl sbcl*, sometimes information is put there that doesn't show up in the buffer that pops up on an error
2016-12-01T02:07:37Z krwq: nah, it just says loading "mypackage"
2016-12-01T02:07:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: Also, you can set *break-on-signals* to t, which sometimes helps show errors that would otherwise be muffled
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2016-12-01T02:08:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: Also, maybe setting ql:*quickload-verbose* to t would help get more info?
2016-12-01T02:10:35Z krwq: after is set *break-on-signals* i'm getting "failed to find the WRITE-DATE of .../.cache/common-lisp/sbcl-..."
2016-12-01T02:10:45Z krwq: do i need to clean up some temp files perhaps?
2016-12-01T02:11:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: maybe, also, sometimes, break-on-signals will display irrelevant errors that were handled
2016-12-01T02:11:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: Try continuing until you get the error you got before and then look at the error just before that
2016-12-01T02:11:44Z krwq: what do you usually need to clean? i saw some fasl files appearing
2016-12-01T02:11:49Z krwq: ok will try
2016-12-01T02:12:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: It can be helpful just to delete ~/.cache/common-lisp/*
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2016-12-01T02:16:11Z krwq: that's weird i found what the issue was: i forgot to add a file to a package - but the error was super cryptic. I had the macro defined in a missing file and instead of complaining that the macro is missing i got an error that it doesn't know what the arg is
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2016-12-01T02:16:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: That's the kind of error you get when you're missing a macro
2016-12-01T02:17:25Z krwq: (i-do-not-exist x y) should display that i-do-not-exist doesn't exist and not that X is unbound
2016-12-01T02:17:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: Macros change the way a form is executed, since they are expanded before the form is evaluated
2016-12-01T02:18:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, the evaluator doesn't understand how to process an undefined macro, so it treats it like a regular function call.
2016-12-01T02:19:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: But that means that, it evaluates are the arguments first and then tries to apply the function: so, if one of the arguments is a symbol without a value, evaluating it will produce a "unbound value error"
2016-12-01T02:19:06Z krwq: ok, i haven't given enough thought if this is detectable but seems like whatever missing higher in sexp hierarchy should be reported sooner IMO
2016-12-01T02:19:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: There isn't really anything you can do about this.
2016-12-01T02:19:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: Because, macros can change the syntax in arbitrary ways and they can introduce new bindings
2016-12-01T02:19:43Z krwq: of course there is - in any other language idonotexist(idontexisteither) will tell you about missing function not the arg
2016-12-01T02:19:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: A macro isn't a function
2016-12-01T02:20:19Z krwq: true but if a function or macro is missing why is it evaling args
2016-12-01T02:20:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's a program that changes the source code to be evaluated.
2016-12-01T02:20:47Z krwq: evaling args should be first if we have a function but since idonotexist is unbound why is it evaling args?
2016-12-01T02:20:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: Running lisp code is basically (eval (macroexpand (read my-source-code)))
2016-12-01T02:21:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: krwq: because, since the macro wasn't around to be expanded, the evaluator thinks that it's a function call.
2016-12-01T02:21:28Z krwq: so macroexpansion couldn't happen because one of the macros was missing - still doesn't explain not intuitive error
2016-12-01T02:21:48Z krwq: one way or the other it should report missing func/macro first
2016-12-01T02:22:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's impossible for the macroexpander to know if idontexist names a macro to be expanded or a function to be called, if the macro doesn't exist yet.
2016-12-01T02:22:38Z krwq: fiddlerwoaroof: so it can't tell if func or macro doesn't exist but can tell something about args?
2016-12-01T02:23:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: The evaluator can tell if a function doesn't exist or if a symbol isn't bound
2016-12-01T02:23:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: But macroexpansion happens before evaluation.
2016-12-01T02:23:50Z krwq: type in your repl (asdadasdas foo) and you will not get anything about missing function asdasdasd
2016-12-01T02:24:41Z krwq: at least not on sbcl
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2016-12-01T02:25:57Z krwq: IMO decision if args should be checked should be based on the fact if it is macro or func and since it doesn't know i should get an error about missing asdasdasd
2016-12-01T02:27:13Z krwq: but even if i got some more context about the form being evaluated it would be more helpful than "arg is unbound"
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2016-12-01T02:45:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: (foo (defun foo (x) (format nil "Foo is ~s" x))) #| => "Foo is FOO" |#
2016-12-01T02:45:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: Evaluating the argument, in that case, produces the function called in the outer s-expression
2016-12-01T02:46:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, there is no way to know whether or not the function being called exists without evaluating the arguments.  And, it's just impossible for the implementation to determine if a macro should be expanded.
2016-12-01T02:46:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: s/should be/should have been/
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2016-12-01T02:47:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: clhs 3.1.2.1.2
2016-12-01T02:47:41Z specbot: Conses as Forms: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_abab.htm
2016-12-01T02:47:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: krwq: that ^ might help understand why you get the error you get.
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2016-12-01T02:53:16Z White_Flame: but in the Function Forms section, it states very early " When a function name is not defined, an error of type undefined-function should be signaled at run time; see Section 3.2.2.3 (Semantic Constraints). "
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2016-12-01T02:54:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, the order of evaluation is arguments -> functions.  So, you first get evaluation errors from problems with arguments and then you get argument errors from undefined functions, right?
2016-12-01T02:56:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm, that's undefined.  So, the example I gave is non-conforming, but permissible
2016-12-01T02:57:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: wrong phrasing, it's not the required result, but it is a permitted result
2016-12-01T02:59:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: And... ACL doesn't interpret it the way sbcl/ecl/ccl do
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2016-12-01T03:18:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: How various implementations treat definition of a function in the arguments it is called with http://paste.lisp.org/+74WW
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2016-12-01T04:47:30Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2016-12-01T04:54:40Z kami: Good morning beach!
2016-12-01T04:55:06Z akkad: 20k inserts/sec/cpu. manardb ftw
2016-12-01T04:55:39Z JuanDaugherty: yello beach
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2016-12-01T06:56:06Z flip214: Can I get SBCL to do loop-unrolling for a (REDUCE #'+ (MAPCAR #'* array1 +coefficients+))? I can make sure that array1 has at least (or the same number of) values as +coeff+.
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2016-12-01T07:07:03Z aeth: this is interesting... (log (+ (abs most-negative-fixnum) most-positive-fixnum 1) 2)
2016-12-01T07:08:06Z aeth: The answer to that, as an integer n, is the '(signed byte n) that is the fixnum in your implementation
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2016-12-01T07:09:42Z Bike: you could just do (integer-length most-positive fixnum)
2016-12-01T07:09:44Z Bike: plus one, maybe
2016-12-01T07:09:45Z aeth: SBCL uses a (signed-byte 63), ECL uses a (signed-byte 62), CCL uses a (signed-byte 61)
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2016-12-01T07:10:21Z aeth: Bike: plus one, always
2016-12-01T07:11:31Z aeth: And CLISP uses a (signed-byte 49)
2016-12-01T07:11:36Z brfennpocock: flip214: if it does not already, you could surely define a compiler macro to do so, if it's significant
2016-12-01T07:11:41Z aeth: Now I just need to find the 12 implementations between CCL and CLISP...
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2016-12-01T07:14:20Z White_Flame: (11 implementations)
2016-12-01T07:14:38Z aeth: so I too fell victim to an off by one error
2016-12-01T07:15:12Z aeth: If humanity goes extinct, it'll probably be something like an off by one error
2016-12-01T07:15:28Z brfennpocock: #9r12 implementations.
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2016-12-01T07:16:57Z flip214: brfennpocock: of course, or I could rewrite as a loop, and have a some kind of macro expand that, etc.
2016-12-01T07:17:25Z flip214: I'd like to know whether loop unrolling is even possible within SBCL, and what pieces of data must be known to the compiler to do that.
2016-12-01T07:20:26Z brfennpocock: Belatedly: (mapcar … ARRAY …) isn't going to do much though. (map 'vector ) perhaps
2016-12-01T07:21:34Z shka: flip214: it is not worth the hassle
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2016-12-01T07:29:24Z flip214: shka: well, the assembler output doesn't look as nice as the https://ruudvanasseldonk.com/2016/11/30/zero-cost-abstractions one...
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2016-12-01T07:30:25Z flip214: haven't benchmarked, but all the looping (and still-existing type-checks?!) make it surely much slower.
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2016-12-01T07:31:01Z flip214: yeah, I'm well aware that the example above heavily benefits from C-like "ignore overflows" behaviour.
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2016-12-01T07:34:13Z Zhivago: C doesn't ignore overflows.
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2016-12-01T07:34:24Z Zhivago: It has undefined behavior on overflow. :)
2016-12-01T07:35:00Z brfennpocock: *shrug* Why not implement the same
2016-12-01T07:35:31Z brfennpocock: … fn in CL, add some declarations, and see what comes out the other side?
2016-12-01T07:36:02Z flip214: http://paste.lisp.org/display/332972 in case anyone's interested
2016-12-01T07:38:32Z aeth: someone should write a C that does random behavior during its undefined behavior :)
2016-12-01T07:38:41Z django_: what kind of software re you all working on
2016-12-01T07:39:19Z brfennpocock: aeth: You might have some hope of convincing the Valgrind folks to do that :-)
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2016-12-01T07:40:05Z shka: flip214: "surely" [-)
2016-12-01T07:40:09Z shka: ;-)
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2016-12-01T07:41:03Z shka: flip214: benchmark first
2016-12-01T07:41:07Z brfennpocock: With SBCL 1.3.4-1.fc24 x64 ⤇ 232  bytes. (The paste = 353)
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2016-12-01T07:42:48Z flip214: shka: compare the asm output in the article, and the one I got. then come back and tell me with a straight face that it's the same performance.
2016-12-01T07:42:59Z shka: heh
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2016-12-01T07:43:11Z brfennpocock: http://paste.lisp.org/+74X9 if you care to compare
2016-12-01T07:43:32Z shka: flip214: sure, but if difference is ~5% than i don't care ;-)
2016-12-01T07:43:50Z shka: and without benchmark, we can't tell if it is or it is not
2016-12-01T07:44:31Z Zhivago: I think that tendra had some option lie that.
2016-12-01T07:47:56Z flip214: brfennpocock: yeah, that looks faster.
2016-12-01T07:48:34Z brfennpocock: Although CONS a list in MAPCAR feels rather wrong to me
2016-12-01T07:49:25Z flip214: shka: If I knew how to get the unrolled version in sbcl, I'd like to compare the performance...
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2016-12-01T07:57:37Z brfennpocock: paste.lisp.org/+74xa is shorter with stdutils:sum-array / map 'vector; but …
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2016-12-01T08:06:21Z flip214: with #'* I always get a GENERIC-*; but with the lambda and DECLARE the typechecks are inserted. hmmm.
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2016-12-01T08:07:37Z flip214: hmm, no. the type-checks were due to an (old) sb-c::restrict-compiler-policy in my image.
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2016-12-01T08:24:12Z django_: do you ever use decision trees
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2016-12-01T08:26:17Z edgar-rft always tries to avoid decisions
2016-12-01T08:26:45Z django_: edgar-rft, haha
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2016-12-01T09:04:49Z nubnub: Dear lispers! Sorry for stupid question, but why the CamelCase style is not used in Lisp programs? Why don't write (defclass MyType nil nil) and same for methods?
2016-12-01T09:05:32Z lemonpie: lisp's history predates lower case characters
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2016-12-01T09:05:43Z Cymew: I guess the hyphenated method had taken root before anyone invented camel case as well.
2016-12-01T09:06:05Z lemonpie: so using - took hold and momentum has carried it forward
2016-12-01T09:06:13Z Cymew: Most oddities in Lisp comes from historical reasons.
2016-12-01T09:06:48Z Cymew: ...and momentum is a powerful force in the universe.
2016-12-01T09:06:52Z lemonpie: *nod*
2016-12-01T09:07:23Z Cymew: Personally I find it easier to read, as it separates out the words.
2016-12-01T09:07:51Z Cymew: But, as with most things it's obviously also due to force of habit.
2016-12-01T09:08:05Z p_l: there's also a significant reason in the form of non-infix grammar
2016-12-01T09:08:18Z Zhivago: nubnub: It requres pressing the shift key too much.
2016-12-01T09:08:27Z Zhivago: nubnub: Compare FooBarZog with foo-bar-zog.
2016-12-01T09:08:33Z p_l: in Java, A-B is "substract B from A". In Lisp, A-B is A-B
2016-12-01T09:09:03Z lemonpie: well, _ would be the algol style analog :)
2016-12-01T09:09:24Z nubnub: is there are reason to NOT use CamelCase in the modern Lisp code (except the historical reasons)?
2016-12-01T09:09:39Z nubnub: p_l: but in Java A_B can be used
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2016-12-01T09:10:08Z p_l: nubnub: yes, but both CamelCase and underscore_separator require shift, and to be honest, are a bit annoying when typing
2016-12-01T09:10:12Z Cymew: Well, coding style have uses if you share code. At home you can do whatever.
2016-12-01T09:10:35Z p_l: Then, then, there comes the fact that default reader configuration in anything other ACL's modern mode is "uppercase"
2016-12-01T09:10:44Z lemonpie: the only technical hurdle i can think of is that not all lisps differentiate Blah, blah and BLAH, as long as you remember that you're probably ok
2016-12-01T09:10:44Z p_l: i.e., when I type in a-b, I get back A-B
2016-12-01T09:10:56Z p_l: and you have the part where lisp symbols are case-sensitive
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2016-12-01T09:11:17Z p_l: lemonpie: well, CL differentiates, depending on reader settings
2016-12-01T09:12:35Z Cymew: Like everything else, the reader can be hacked.
2016-12-01T09:13:03Z aeth: to make it more clear: you'd get either MYTYPE for camelcase or MY-TYPE for the hyphenated style
2016-12-01T09:13:06Z nubnub: Cymew: so, if I want to share the code, its better to avoid CamelCase?
2016-12-01T09:13:18Z Cymew: I'd say so.
2016-12-01T09:13:24Z aeth: so when the REPL angrily shouts at you, it's clearer when you use hyphenated (or underscored, I guess) names
2016-12-01T09:14:09Z Zhivago: Personally I'd prefer to use non-breaking spaces instead of hyphens, but editing technology has yet to catch up.
2016-12-01T09:14:11Z aeth: Also, with foo-bar-baz you can use completion and other helpful features. Even underscores aren't supported in SLIME because they're extremely rare.
2016-12-01T09:14:32Z nubnub: the reason I bother is inconsistency of Lisp code with code in other languages I use.
2016-12-01T09:15:18Z Cymew: Well. Languages have different syntax so you will have inconsistencies. ;)
2016-12-01T09:15:20Z aeth: There's already an inconsistency for me between camelCase and underscore_style so I don't really mind a third that much.
2016-12-01T09:15:59Z aeth: You can write one where the other's expected, but it is similarly out of place
2016-12-01T09:16:09Z lemonpie: the only real problem i have with hyphen style is that i tend to try and use it in C++ if i go back and then wonder why the compiler's angry
2016-12-01T09:16:32Z Cymew recognize that experience
2016-12-01T09:16:46Z nubnub: lemonpie: same
2016-12-01T09:17:28Z Cymew: The obvious solution is to hack gcc to accept the lisp behaviour.
2016-12-01T09:18:01Z nubnub: well, it is not the biggest problem, and thus, I'll follow the conventions of the different languages
2016-12-01T09:18:09Z aeth: A similar mistake I've made is switching between prefix, infix, and postfix (the latter just for stack calculators)
2016-12-01T09:18:28Z aeth: I'll sometimes do infix in Lisp or prefix in Python or something
2016-12-01T09:19:42Z nubnub: CamelCase in Java, underscore and all in lowercase in C++, and hyphen and all in lowercase in Common Lisp
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2016-12-01T09:23:10Z nubnub: thanks for the discussion. as always, good feedback from good community :)
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2016-12-01T09:25:44Z aeth: And all of that talk of formatting is not even going into tabs vs spaces. I hate tabs because outside of my editor where they're configured properly, everywhere else seems to take that source code and assume ridiculously long tab lengths like 8 or worse. Fortunately, Lisp chooses the correct side there. How would you even have line length limits with tabs?
2016-12-01T09:25:57Z aeth: I'm glad Lisp doesn't have a formatting holy war, it's basically "whatever emacs does to the Lisp"
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2016-12-01T09:34:57Z jackdaniel: three spaces and the tab!
2016-12-01T09:36:45Z lemonpie: lisp-indent-function does actually annoy me quite frequently :/
2016-12-01T09:37:18Z TMA: aeth: 8 spaces per tab, 80 columns, 24 lines - one tab per indentation level - this is the perfect balance for C. anything less strict makes the C code less manageable
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2016-12-01T09:37:44Z TMA: aeth: does not apply to lisp though :)
2016-12-01T09:37:47Z jackdaniel disagrees ;)
2016-12-01T09:38:04Z jackdaniel: 4 spaces (no tabs), 78 columns, … :D
2016-12-01T09:38:18Z lemonpie: when i first started working, our standard was 4 spaces and 76 columns (f77 code)
2016-12-01T09:38:19Z Cymew: I only know that old LispM code with all CAPS makes my head hurt.
2016-12-01T09:38:31Z lemonpie: over time that's dwindled to the point where i prefer 2 spaces in many cases now
2016-12-01T09:38:37Z jackdaniel: right, 76°
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2016-12-01T09:38:44Z lemonpie: but prefer 170 width terminals
2016-12-01T09:39:03Z lemonpie: (simply because it splits nicely in emacs)
2016-12-01T09:39:47Z jackdaniel: I like 270-width terminals (I have three columns then)
2016-12-01T09:39:57Z lemonpie: my eyes wouldn't like that :P
2016-12-01T09:40:20Z jackdaniel: heh
2016-12-01T09:43:39Z edgar-rft 's first computer's display had only six hex-digits, at that machine I never had problems with tabs :-)
2016-12-01T09:43:45Z lemonpie: ffs, i just tried to C-x o between 2 windows
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2016-12-01T09:55:15Z Zhivago: I use two spaces in C.
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