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2016-11-29T00:17:10Z Xach: YOU are markcox80?
2016-11-29T00:17:31Z pillton: Yes? Why?
2016-11-29T00:17:39Z Xach: so confused
2016-11-29T00:18:04Z Xach: pillton: basic-binary-ipc is on my list of libraries to use immediately when i have the need
2016-11-29T00:18:11Z pillton: "YOU" in a good way or a bad way?
2016-11-29T00:18:15Z Xach: but my hobby hacks have not been bubbling with activity
2016-11-29T00:18:17Z pillton is nervous
2016-11-29T00:18:24Z Xach points, shouts
2016-11-29T00:18:35Z akkad: Xach is the keeper of names to nick mappings
2016-11-29T00:18:48Z akkad: Xach: quick, why is ams banned?
2016-11-29T00:18:51Z Xach: akkad: i wish. scymtym still confused me :~(
2016-11-29T00:18:57Z Xach: akkad: bad behavior.
2016-11-29T00:19:02Z warweasle: "Main screen turn on" "It's YOU" "How are you gentlemen. All your base are belong to us!"
2016-11-29T00:19:20Z Xach: warweasle i can not forget because his name is one of my favorite things
2016-11-29T00:19:40Z pillton: Xach: Ah basic-binary-ipc. What a slog.
2016-11-29T00:19:41Z warweasle: Xach: CAATS?
2016-11-29T00:19:53Z Xach: pillton: better you than me! and i was going to do it.
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2016-11-29T00:37:51Z pillton: Xach: I think I died a little when implementing support for Windows.
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2016-11-29T00:54:30Z akkad: ooh. allegro beta time
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2016-11-29T01:04:21Z akkad: for anyone ever wanting to play with Allegro CL without the limits.
2016-11-29T01:04:23Z akkad: http://franz.com/10.1.beta/dist/index.html
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2016-11-29T04:14:51Z krwq: hey, when you name your class/generic function and you get a collision with a cl and you are in your own package is the only solution to not have a collision to remove :use from defpackage or is there an option to override? i find collisions of name like: position/map for a game quite annoying
2016-11-29T04:15:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: in you defpackage you can specify a (:shadow :foo) directive
2016-11-29T04:15:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: e.g. (defpackage :my-package (:use :cl) (:shadow :defun))
2016-11-29T04:16:08Z krwq: fiddlerwoaroof: thank you!!
2016-11-29T04:16:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, generally, you don't want to shadow names in :cl
2016-11-29T04:17:00Z krwq: fiddlerwoaroof: how do you name stuff like player's slot position? or a map and not get collision?
2016-11-29T04:17:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: You just come up with a different name for the slot and/or the reader for the slot
2016-11-29T04:17:34Z loke: krwq: Slot names can have the same name as a CL function. That's not an issue.
2016-11-29T04:17:51Z loke: The only issue is names of functions. I.e. you shouldn't define a function called MAP.
2016-11-29T04:18:41Z krwq: so what names do you propose? for position it's easy to rename to something like pos, but for a map i don't have any ideas
2016-11-29T04:18:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: something like GAME-MAP?
2016-11-29T04:18:51Z fiddlerwoaroof:  
2016-11-29T04:19:06Z loke: krwq: are you talking about the accessor functions now?
2016-11-29T04:19:11Z lemonpie: this is the one area where a lisp-2 is useful, i guess :P
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2016-11-29T04:19:24Z loke: You know that you don't have to name the accessor functions the same as the slot name, right?
2016-11-29T04:20:01Z loke prefers, in fact, to make it clear they are accessors. I usually name them as class/slot, as such: (defclass foo () ((map :accessor foo/map)))
2016-11-29T04:20:22Z krwq: fiddlerwoaroof: that's what i did now but it feels pretty annoying - loke: i'd prefer to keep the names the same as I'm pretty newbie to classes and want to avoid stupid naming typos now
2016-11-29T04:20:39Z krwq: lemonpie: what's lisp-2?
2016-11-29T04:20:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: A lisp that has different namespaces for functions and variables.
2016-11-29T04:21:18Z lemonpie: lisp-1 systems on the other hand have a single namespace for everything
2016-11-29T04:21:20Z krwq: i could simply remove :use cl i guess
2016-11-29T04:21:27Z Bike: as relates to our conversation about FUNCTION a few days back
2016-11-29T04:21:35Z loke: krwq: I'd much rather recommend my approach.
2016-11-29T04:21:58Z loke: It makes it much more clear when doing code navigation as well.
2016-11-29T04:22:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: krwq: it's more confusing to the reader of your code if it's reusing names in cl
2016-11-29T04:22:21Z krwq: actually game/map doesn't sound too bad
2016-11-29T04:22:24Z lemonpie: and 'map' is a terrible accessor name, no matter how you look at it
2016-11-29T04:22:28Z loke: Otherwise you end up accessors for different slots that have the same name. It works, but it's very confisuing to read.
2016-11-29T04:22:49Z krwq: game-map is quite annoying for functions because of the hyphen
2016-11-29T04:22:57Z loke: krwq: That's why I use /
2016-11-29T04:23:18Z krwq: i can't get used to the fact that i can use any character for names :)
2016-11-29T04:23:31Z krwq: thank you!
2016-11-29T04:23:37Z loke: Using the minus character is overloading its role, making it hard to know if foo-bar-x is the bar-x propert of foo, or the x-property of foo-bar.
2016-11-29T04:24:00Z loke: foo-bar/x is very clear, imho.
2016-11-29T04:24:25Z krwq: loke: i agree - i like this convention
2016-11-29T04:25:22Z loke: krwq: FYI, if you want to add a personal touch, there are other characters you can use too... !@#$%^&*=-+~ are all availabale :-)
2016-11-29T04:25:59Z lemonpie: you can *probably* use unicode symbols too, depending on your lisp imeplementation
2016-11-29T04:26:00Z loke is traditional. I don't think I've ever created a symbol with the ^ character in it.
2016-11-29T04:26:19Z krwq: I'm gonna pass on unicode
2016-11-29T04:26:38Z loke: lemonpie: I did that once. I think I used ⍞
2016-11-29T04:26:51Z krwq: instead of mouse?
2016-11-29T04:27:02Z loke: lemonpie: Then I stopped. I realised there were enough symbols in ASCII for what I wanted to do.
2016-11-29T04:27:03Z lemonpie: sbcl is cool with: * (defvar ★ 123)
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2016-11-29T04:27:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: loke: I like using accessor names that are generic enough to reuse in other classes.  I also like putting defgenerics at the top of my file for all my generic functions, including accessors (although I seldom follow through with this in practice)
2016-11-29T04:27:54Z loke: fiddlerwoaroof: I agree with that for accessors that are ment to be generic. That said, for those I usually write them as explicit defmethods just to be extra clear, but that's just me.
2016-11-29T04:27:57Z krwq: i'm just starting so need to get some good convention
2016-11-29T04:28:41Z loke: Most classes (and by extension, accessors) are not very generic though. Is many cases they are just structured containers of data.
2016-11-29T04:28:51Z krwq: i'm slightly tempted to use dot so it looks like fields/properties from other languages
2016-11-29T04:29:16Z loke: krwq: Nothing wrong with that. At least it's readable and understandable.
2016-11-29T04:29:41Z krwq: do you have a some good example of code i can read&learn?
2016-11-29T04:29:43Z loke: Fullily enough, I can't recall ever seeing anyone do that. People usually use the period to separate parts in package names though.
2016-11-29T04:29:50Z loke: krwq: Code doing what?
2016-11-29T04:30:14Z krwq: some game, but i'd like some code which would be good for learning
2016-11-29T04:30:27Z krwq: the conventions and language mostly
2016-11-29T04:30:29Z krwq: not the logic
2016-11-29T04:30:46Z loke: krwq: Not sure. There are plenty of great projects. Some are more complex than others.
2016-11-29T04:31:00Z krwq: i'd just like to see how other people organize code - something simple and good
2016-11-29T04:31:03Z krwq: with classes
2016-11-29T04:31:57Z loke: My code tends to use classes quite a bit.
2016-11-29T04:32:02Z nydel: if i write functions that get called by an assoc-list 'cmds' i often name them cmds/fun1 cmds/fun2 cmds/fun2.withargs ... haven't had any problems with that yet and can serve to make more readable code
2016-11-29T04:32:16Z loke: You can take a look here: https://github.com/cicakhq/potato/tree/master/src/potato
2016-11-29T04:32:59Z loke: Here's a big class: https://github.com/cicakhq/potato/blob/master/src/potato/user.lisp#L5
2016-11-29T04:34:05Z krwq: what do you usually use for refactoring names? is there something i.e. for renaming? find&replace won't always work properly
2016-11-29T04:34:32Z loke: krwq: A combination of search&replace and manual work.
2016-11-29T04:34:43Z loke: You can use the cross-ref tools in SLIME to help you.
2016-11-29T04:35:37Z krwq: loke: i can see how it can be slightly tough to write such tool for lisp... Thanks for pointers and tips!!
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2016-11-29T04:43:11Z axion: Anyone that has updated to the latest SBCL 1.3.11, can you test something quick?
2016-11-29T04:44:31Z loke: axion: How current? I upgraded 2 weeks ago.
2016-11-29T04:44:43Z axion: The 1.3.11 release
2016-11-29T04:45:01Z loke: I don't use the releases. I compile directly from the git.
2016-11-29T04:45:18Z loke: I'm on "1.3.11.18-2a6ce7f"
2016-11-29T04:45:26Z axion: Can you try quickloading "md5" and see if it compiles?
2016-11-29T04:45:37Z loke: It does.
2016-11-29T04:45:45Z axion: Strange
2016-11-29T04:45:57Z loke: What error do you get?
2016-11-29T04:46:24Z axion: It worked on the previous version. I now get: System "sb-rotate-byte" not found
2016-11-29T04:46:40Z loke: axion: I remember something about that. Did you upgrade QL?
2016-11-29T04:46:54Z axion: No client update. I have updated dists.
2016-11-29T04:47:09Z loke: axion: Ah wait... Did you compile your sbcl with --fancy?
2016-11-29T04:47:50Z axion: I am using the Arch Linux package, which I assume is using the same build recipe as prior versions.
2016-11-29T04:48:31Z axion: Let me try to clear the FASL cache
2016-11-29T04:48:46Z loke: axion: I never trust the packages. Try compiling from source.
2016-11-29T04:52:20Z axion: Wow, in about 10 years I've never seen a broken package of SBCL.
2016-11-29T04:52:54Z axion: Now I'm forced to remove SBCL from package management
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2016-11-29T04:53:30Z loke: axion: I have never seen a working one (where "working" implies both recent, and compiled with the rigth flags)
2016-11-29T04:53:40Z axion: https://git.archlinux.org/svntogit/packages.git/tree/trunk/PKGBUILD?h=packages/sbcl
2016-11-29T04:53:55Z axion: See anything particularly suspect in that build() function?
2016-11-29T04:53:59Z loke: Yeah. Broken. They don't use --fancy
2016-11-29T04:54:08Z axion: Ok
2016-11-29T04:54:21Z loke: And you shouldn't use the target-fratures.lisp anymore. It's been deprecated if I remember correctly.
2016-11-29T04:54:32Z axion: I haven't built SBCL from source in years. Anything else I should do/make sure of?
2016-11-29T04:54:49Z loke: Just download the source (from git or file). Then run ./make.sh --fancy
2016-11-29T04:54:51Z loke: that's it.
2016-11-29T04:54:57Z axion: Ok thanks.
2016-11-29T04:54:57Z loke: Then you can run sudo ./install.sh
2016-11-29T04:56:15Z loke: No problems and good luck :-)
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2016-11-29T05:08:59Z axion: hmm install script is broken
2016-11-29T05:10:38Z loke: Broken?
2016-11-29T05:10:51Z axion: mkdir: cannot create directory ‘/usr/local/share/man’: File exists
2016-11-29T05:10:54Z axion: it stops there
2016-11-29T05:12:51Z loke: Did you sudo?
2016-11-29T05:13:18Z loke: oh wait
2016-11-29T05:13:23Z axion: yes
2016-11-29T05:13:24Z loke: do the following
2016-11-29T05:13:30Z loke: ls -ld /usr/local/share/man
2016-11-29T05:13:46Z axion: symlink to ../man
2016-11-29T05:14:15Z loke: and what about
2016-11-29T05:14:19Z loke: ls -ld /usr/local/man
2016-11-29T05:14:38Z axion: no such dir
2016-11-29T05:14:44Z loke: That's the problem
2016-11-29T05:14:46Z loke: just do
2016-11-29T05:14:51Z loke: sudo mkdir /usr/local/man
2016-11-29T05:15:26Z loke: Then install.sh should work.
2016-11-29T05:16:41Z axion: works, thanks
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2016-11-29T05:17:00Z axion: so now, sbcl is the only manpage in that location...hmm
2016-11-29T05:17:12Z loke: For me, it's just sbcl and emacs
2016-11-29T05:17:21Z loke: (emacs installs a handful of files)
2016-11-29T05:17:55Z loke: But that's fine. /usr/local is for locally installed stuff (outside of a package manager). I guess you don't install much stuff from source.
2016-11-29T05:18:31Z axion: I do, I actually have an LFS system, but I normally just track installed package files and use a --prefix of /usr...also it's been a while
2016-11-29T05:19:00Z loke: axion: True. I do that too for must stuff which isn't a core part of my workflow (makes it easier to delete later if I don't need it).
2016-11-29T05:19:11Z loke: emacs and sbcl are special though, as they are absolutely vital.
2016-11-29T05:19:27Z axion: Now to see if this solves the original issue
2016-11-29T05:19:31Z loke: It should.
2016-11-29T05:19:43Z loke: If it doesn't I'll be very surprised.
2016-11-29T05:21:22Z krwq: loke: what's :persisted-p t in a slot definition?
2016-11-29T05:21:37Z krwq: loke: i'm seeing that in one of the classes in potato
2016-11-29T05:21:44Z loke: krwq: That's part of the metaclass.
2016-11-29T05:21:58Z krwq: loke: huh?
2016-11-29T05:22:07Z loke: krwq: It allows me to transparently persist object in CouchDB. You can look at the definition in metaclasses.lisp and db.lisp.
2016-11-29T05:22:37Z loke: However, it's pretty advanced, so if you're just starting out with CLOS, you might want to just ignore that stuff for now. :-)
2016-11-29T05:23:36Z aeth: Is there a portability library for something like inline assembly (e.g. sb-assem) or is that too unportable? (I just want to play around with assembly so it doesn't need to be portable, but it still seems wrong to code directly to SBCL.)
2016-11-29T05:23:44Z axion: out of curiosity, how would i set prefix to /usr? env var is not working, even with sudo -E
2016-11-29T05:24:11Z krwq: loke: thanks! where do you read about that? pcl is not far from the end
2016-11-29T05:24:12Z loke: axion: I wouldn't set prefix to /usr. Why would you want to?
2016-11-29T05:24:38Z loke: krwq: The definite guide is the book The Art Of The Metaobject Protocol.
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2016-11-29T05:24:57Z loke: krwq: You might want to google for texts on the "MOP"
2016-11-29T05:25:34Z axion: because my $PATH is all wrong, and I'd just like to log files for later removal anyway. I don't really want to configure Arch to work differently than it has been.
2016-11-29T05:25:38Z loke: krwq: It allows you to extend CLOS beyond what you can do with ordinary classes. Like, for example, create a system for persistence in the way I did in the code you looked at.
2016-11-29T05:25:51Z krwq: loke: I'm gonna pass for now but i'll read about that at one point
2016-11-29T05:25:54Z loke: axion: Hmm, I always have /usr/local/bin in PATH.
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2016-11-29T05:31:54Z axion: loke: it did not fix the issue
2016-11-29T05:32:03Z axion: System "sb-rotate-byte" not found
2016-11-29T05:34:58Z krwq: bummer
2016-11-29T05:36:10Z krwq: axion: are you using the right binary for sure?
2016-11-29T05:36:35Z axion: positive
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2016-11-29T05:40:39Z axion: I fixed it
2016-11-29T05:41:01Z krwq: what was the issue?
2016-11-29T05:41:39Z axion: I am using a custom core, and apparently recent SBCL doesn't include sb-rotate-byte in the main system, so I have to do (require 'sb-rotate-byte) before I dump the image
2016-11-29T05:42:29Z krwq: well at least you got sbcl from sources now
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2016-11-29T05:58:17Z loke: axion: I don't get it.
2016-11-29T05:58:21Z loke: axion: I have that system.
2016-11-29T05:58:43Z krwq: is there some kind of destructuring-bind for conses or just symbol-macrolet?
2016-11-29T05:59:04Z Bike: destructuring-bind can destructure conses. what do you want, exactly?
2016-11-29T05:59:05Z axion: destructuring-bind
2016-11-29T05:59:06Z loke: krwq: What do you mean?
2016-11-29T05:59:26Z krwq: how do you do something like: (with-cons (a . b) ...)
2016-11-29T05:59:29Z axion: loke: i have to (require 'sb-rotate-byte) before i dump core, or quickload fails to load "md5"
2016-11-29T05:59:32Z loke: (destructuring-bind (a . b) (cons 1 2) (list a b)) → (1 2)
2016-11-29T05:59:37Z Bike: you can do that with destructuring-bind, yeah.
2016-11-29T06:00:00Z krwq: wow - i thought that has to be a list :) thanks!
2016-11-29T06:00:09Z loke: krwq: You can even do this:
2016-11-29T06:00:13Z Bike: it's a lambda list. (a &rest b) would do it too.
2016-11-29T06:00:31Z loke: (destructuring-bind (&key a b) '(:a 1 :b 2) (list a b)) ⇒ (1 2)
2016-11-29T06:00:45Z krwq: the list part got me confused since techincally in this case it's a dotted list
2016-11-29T06:00:59Z Bike: clhs destructuring-bind
2016-11-29T06:00:59Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_destru.htm
2016-11-29T06:01:01Z loke: krwq: You can basically but anything in there that can go in a defmacro lambda list
2016-11-29T06:01:10Z Bike: clhs 3.4.5
2016-11-29T06:01:10Z specbot: Destructuring Lambda Lists: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_de.htm
2016-11-29T06:01:12Z Bike: has the grammar.
2016-11-29T06:01:49Z loke: You can even destruct something like ((a . b) (&key x y z) (q w) &rest zz)
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2016-11-29T06:09:55Z pillton: Or (destructuring-bind (&key ((:x (a . b)))) '(:x (1 . 2)) (list a b)) => (1 2)
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2016-11-29T06:43:52Z slyrus: just don't try to use a destructuring lambda list in a loop for clause
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2016-11-29T12:09:34Z Xach gets to hacking!
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2016-11-29T12:16:49Z jackdaniel: have fun :)
2016-11-29T12:21:01Z rjmacready: i think i dreamt that quicklisp had a new-project command
2016-11-29T12:21:51Z Xach: There's a quickproject project that makes new project skeletons.
2016-11-29T12:21:54Z Xach: It needs a bit of updating.
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2016-11-29T12:22:04Z Xach prefers markdown readmes these days
2016-11-29T12:22:37Z rjmacready: ah, that was what i saw, thanks
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2016-11-29T12:33:10Z hjudt: can someone tell me what is wrong with this code (see bottom)? http://pastebin.com/7RLeeVGT
2016-11-29T12:33:51Z hjudt: why do some values get changed successfully, while others are not?
2016-11-29T12:34:26Z hjudt: sorry about the code quality, i have quickly cobbled together an example from a larger package
2016-11-29T12:34:37Z hjudt: this is using sbcl
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2016-11-29T12:37:09Z Xach: hjudt: you print the list before all threads have completed.
2016-11-29T12:37:17Z Xach: I take that back.
2016-11-29T12:37:18Z hjudt: no, that is not the problem
2016-11-29T12:37:28Z Xach: I withdrew it! See! Another threading problem!
2016-11-29T12:38:00Z hjudt: but you are right that i should have written that in the example, one has to wait.
2016-11-29T12:38:02Z rjmacready: :D
2016-11-29T12:38:04Z Xach: I do really see the problem though.
2016-11-29T12:38:22Z hjudt: is it a problem with the code or a bug?
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2016-11-29T12:38:47Z phoe: you don't wait for all the threads to terminate
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2016-11-29T12:38:52Z Xach: hjudt: it's a problem with the code
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2016-11-29T12:38:57Z Xach: phoe: we went over that
2016-11-29T12:39:12Z hjudt: xach: tell me, as i am too blind to see
2016-11-29T12:39:51Z Xach: hjudt: the assumption is that (loop for p in people ...) creates a new lexical binding of P, but (without having chapter and verse handy) I don't think that is specified.
2016-11-29T12:40:09Z phoe: wait
2016-11-29T12:40:15Z phoe: why the fuck does the lambda () ...
2016-11-29T12:40:18Z phoe: have a :name argument?
2016-11-29T12:40:20Z Xach: hjudt: If you do (loop for p in people collect (let ((p p)) ...)) they are all changed all the time.
2016-11-29T12:40:26Z Xach: phoe: it doesn't. make-thread does.
2016-11-29T12:40:28Z malice`: hjudt: btw. you defined method called person-name; you can also provide one of :reader :writer :accessor (where :accessor is both :reader and :writer) to have CLOS define reader/writer/both for you(so you could write (setf (name person) ...) instead
2016-11-29T12:40:30Z phoe: Xach: no
2016-11-29T12:40:38Z phoe: http://paste.lisp.org/display/332846
2016-11-29T12:40:39Z phoe: the lambda has
2016-11-29T12:40:45Z phoe: the code is incorrectly indented
2016-11-29T12:41:08Z Xach: phoe: Ok. but it is just a keyword :name that is followed by a form (concatenate ...)
2016-11-29T12:41:17Z Xach: Good eyes, but not actively harmful.
2016-11-29T12:41:33Z rjmacready: is it possible that some of those threads dont start before the result gets outputed?
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2016-11-29T12:41:56Z phoe: no, wait
2016-11-29T12:41:56Z Xach: It is that some of the threads are sharing the value of P
2016-11-29T12:42:04Z phoe: you only start the threads
2016-11-29T12:42:09Z phoe: where do you wait for them to finish?
2016-11-29T12:42:20Z rjmacready: my threading CL skills are non existing, but i would assume issue would be (wait for it) you're not waiting for threads to finish
2016-11-29T12:42:34Z hjudt: phoe: on the repl. waiting *manually*. all the threads have terminated correctly.
2016-11-29T12:42:39Z rjmacready: although threads sharing the value of p looks legit as well
2016-11-29T12:42:40Z phoe: got it
2016-11-29T12:42:41Z Xach: in other words, underneath, it is something like (let (p) (tagbody loop (setf p 0) ... (incf p) (go loop)))
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2016-11-29T12:42:51Z Xach: I have already solved it, friends.
2016-11-29T12:42:59Z hjudt: Xach: what can i do about it?
2016-11-29T12:43:02Z rjmacready: xach ftw
2016-11-29T12:43:21Z Xach: That means the thread's action depends on whether thre thread runs before or after the INCF (or assignment of the new person in the list)
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2016-11-29T12:43:42Z Xach: hjudt: create a binding of P that the lambda can capture.
2016-11-29T12:43:57Z phoe: oh I see
2016-11-29T12:44:06Z phoe: nifty.
2016-11-29T12:44:55Z rjmacready: how do you fix it? i believe it's possible to send data to the make-thread's lambda as an argument, no?
2016-11-29T12:46:17Z Xach: rjmacready: one option is to create a new binding that the lambda can capture. another option is (make-thread (lambda (p) ...) :arguments p) as you mentioned.
2016-11-29T12:47:10Z phoe: Xach: will (loop for p in ... with q = p do (make-thread (lambda () (foo q)))) do?
2016-11-29T12:47:45Z phoe: WITH should create a new binding
2016-11-29T12:47:46Z Xach: phoe: I don't think so. I don't think it's specified whether WITH creates a fresh binding or reuses an existing one.
2016-11-29T12:47:52Z Xach: phoe: Is it specified? If so, where?
2016-11-29T12:47:58Z phoe: clhs loop
2016-11-29T12:47:58Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_loop.htm
2016-11-29T12:48:06Z Xach: I mean more specifically.
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2016-11-29T12:48:37Z phoe: uhh
2016-11-29T12:48:58Z phoe: (loop for p in ... do (let ((q p)) (make-thread (lambda () (foo q)))))
2016-11-29T12:49:03Z phoe: something like that perhaps
2016-11-29T12:50:11Z Xach: yes...that is what I wrote some time ago...
2016-11-29T12:50:35Z Xach: (let ((p p)) ...) also works.
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2016-11-29T12:52:04Z hjudt: Xach: thanks, this seems to work fine: http://pastebin.com/zBw2dghA
2016-11-29T12:52:35Z Xach: glad to hear it
2016-11-29T12:53:38Z hjudt: so to sum that up: the problem is that the iterator (p) gets changed while the threads are executed, right? it confirms the observations i have made with some additional format statements before.
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2016-11-29T12:54:45Z hjudt: i did not expect the threads to share the p, i believed they would copy that. but it makes sense.
2016-11-29T12:55:22Z hjudt: it took me quite a while to get to the example ;-/ nasty to examine...
2016-11-29T12:55:33Z hjudt: thanks for your help
2016-11-29T12:56:24Z hjudt: i've already feared it might be a bug in sbcl not in my code and am really glad it is not.
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2016-11-29T12:57:41Z Xach: hjudt: you have summed it up correctly
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2016-11-29T15:14:35Z flip214: is there a function that does the same as DEFVAR or DEFPARAMETER? I'd need to set a symbol to a value from within a macro, and the name is passed in
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2016-11-29T15:14:58Z lieven: progv as special form maybe
2016-11-29T15:15:15Z flip214: (SETF (SYMBOL-VALUE sym) ...) leaves me with "undefined variable" as compiler output
2016-11-29T15:15:34Z flip214: lieven: I need it as persistent result, not just during macro runtime.
2016-11-29T15:16:14Z lieven: a combination of eval-when and declaim/proclaim
2016-11-29T15:16:38Z lieven: it's fairly likely you're doing something awkward and a better solution exists
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2016-11-29T15:17:15Z flip214: lieven: a reader macro that interns a case-sensitive string into a "special" package, and returns the symbol.
2016-11-29T15:17:27Z flip214: but I'd like to have to symbol evaluate to itself, like a keyword.
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2016-11-29T15:17:54Z flip214: works fine, mostly, I'd just like to get rid of the compiler warnings now.
2016-11-29T15:18:10Z lieven: and what does the compiler warn you about?
2016-11-29T15:18:33Z flip214: "undefined variable", when using such symbols.
2016-11-29T15:19:04Z flip214: think about (list :keyword value :keyword value), but for a different package:
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2016-11-29T15:19:22Z flip214: (list §:Case-Sensitive-KEY value)
2016-11-29T15:19:43Z lieven: the hyperspec shows you a possible implementation of defvar
2016-11-29T15:19:46Z flip214: for case-sensitivity I need a reader macro...
2016-11-29T15:19:54Z flip214: clhs defvar
2016-11-29T15:19:54Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defpar.htm
2016-11-29T15:20:09Z flip214: will look at that, but it might not help with the compiler warning, I guess
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2016-11-29T15:24:50Z flip214: a (PROCLAIM `(special ,sym)) seems to have fixed that issue
2016-11-29T15:24:54Z flip214: thanks for the hint
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2016-11-29T15:26:20Z _death: if you want keywords-like behavior, why not defconstant
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2016-11-29T15:28:11Z flip214: well, the reader macro might be called ANYWHERE within a form, I can't emit a defconstant form
2016-11-29T15:28:46Z flip214: and defconstant is again a macro, who's expansion isn't defined in the standard, is it?
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2016-11-29T15:29:43Z _death: right
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2016-11-29T15:30:46Z lisp105: hello?
2016-11-29T15:31:01Z _death: (defconstant can be a non-toplevel form btw)
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2016-11-29T15:39:58Z igam: Why do I get this error:  Invalid asdf output-translation (T (:HOME ".cache" "common-lisp" :HOSTNAME :IMPLEMENTATION)) in  #P"/Users/pjb/.config/common-lisp/asdf-output-translations.conf" (will be skipped)  (it worked well before).
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2016-11-29T16:34:17Z phoe: igam: are you pjb?
2016-11-29T16:34:27Z jackdaniel: T
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2016-11-29T16:51:07Z beach: Good evening everyone!
2016-11-29T16:51:54Z beach: [reading the logs] Hello lisp105.
2016-11-29T16:52:47Z phoe: Good evening, beach.
2016-11-29T16:53:02Z beach: Hey phoe.  What's up?
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2016-11-29T16:55:01Z BusFactor1: Morning beach.
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2016-11-29T16:57:45Z malice`: Good evening beach
2016-11-29T16:58:59Z phoe: Flu, episode 923.
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2016-11-29T16:59:17Z phoe: It's one boring show, the same stuff every season.
2016-11-29T16:59:36Z easye: phoe: condolences.
2016-11-29T16:59:44Z phoe: I've been contemplating Lisp again but it looks like I'll just go take another nap.
2016-11-29T17:00:27Z phoe: easye: please bring violets onto my grave and feed Fuzzy three times a day.
2016-11-29T17:00:47Z easye: "Yer not dead yet, guv'"
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2016-11-29T17:01:06Z phoe: But I can already imagine how the end of my life looks like.
2016-11-29T17:01:15Z phoe: Like, I can see it.
2016-11-29T17:01:23Z phoe: s/how/what/
2016-11-29T17:01:30Z easye: Sounds like a terrible flu.
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2016-11-29T17:01:48Z phoe: Every flu is terrible.
2016-11-29T17:02:05Z phoe: You get an idea of what you want to do, you get up, and this moment you're out of energy to do anything.
2016-11-29T17:02:28Z easye: It's been a couple seasons sine I was out that bad.
2016-11-29T17:03:07Z phoe: "Everything which has a beginning, must have an end."
2016-11-29T17:03:16Z phoe: "Otherwise, END-OF-INPUT is signaled."
2016-11-29T17:03:24Z easye: The last years, I've been a) not working in an office and b) washing my hands much more compulsively (a side effect of attending teh Chaos Communications Conference if you can believe it).
2016-11-29T17:03:34Z phoe: uh?
2016-11-29T17:03:47Z phoe: Washing your hands and CCC. This sounds interesting.
2016-11-29T17:04:09Z easye: It was just this thing that they insisted on, and I have kept up the habbit.
2016-11-29T17:04:16Z easye: s/habbit/habit/
2016-11-29T17:04:56Z phoe: Got it.
2016-11-29T17:05:40Z easye: Unfortunately, I think the not working in a large office is much more likely the causal agent rather than compulsively washing my hands, but anyways.
2016-11-29T17:06:40Z TMA: phoe: that seems like the symptoms of a depression (one of the myriad variants that are currently medically approved (for treatment as opposed to ridicule))
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2016-11-29T17:07:01Z phoe: TMA: I know the difference between depression and flu.
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2016-11-29T17:07:46Z easye: It's hard not to get a little blue living (> (north-lattitude you) 45)
2016-11-29T17:08:02Z easye: Or is that longitude.
2016-11-29T17:08:07Z phoe: Mostly because depression doesn't come with congested sinuses, random sweating, temperature swinging between 36.0C-37.3C, headaches on head rotation and general dizziness, clumsiness and feeling like you were hit in the head with a brick.
2016-11-29T17:08:36Z Bike: not the sinuses, anyway
2016-11-29T17:09:19Z malice`: phoe: if you have enough energy not to sleep, you can discover or appreciate the beauty of the music. I can recommend my playlist: https://youtu.be/z7rxl5KsPjs?list=PLbM_SEQF2VgGjqPRRefmMRRR10jZ2jDsc
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2016-11-29T17:09:36Z malice`: hopefully this will ease your time :)
2016-11-29T17:11:12Z TMA: phoe: I suppose so. yet you have omitted from your initial description the usuals and went with a remarcably accurate description of depression. :) get well!
2016-11-29T17:12:17Z phoe: ;_;
2016-11-29T17:12:33Z phoe: I just want things to be like they were a week ago
2016-11-29T17:12:49Z phoe: when I didn't need to complain about anything related to all of this.
2016-11-29T17:13:16Z phoe: malice`: thanks, I have my fair share of music to enjoy. I'll post some of it on #lispcafe
2016-11-29T17:14:38Z TMA: easye: latitude. "how high above equator" longitude is "how far from london in the east/west distance component"
2016-11-29T17:15:50Z easye: TMA:  yeah.  But somehow I keep thinking the "lat" in latitude is congruent to being "wide" or something, so think "latitude" is the east/west one.
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2016-11-29T17:17:42Z easye: A better mnemonic fo rme what be: finding the latitude is trivial physically (just note how "high" the moon/sun is in the sky), but the longitude is not so easy.
2016-11-29T17:18:15Z phoe: easye: if you have a clock
2016-11-29T17:18:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: The longitudinal circles are "long-er" (on average) than the latitudinal ones.
2016-11-29T17:18:53Z easye: phoe: check.
2016-11-29T17:18:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: (that's how I always remember the difference)
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2016-11-29T17:19:18Z sjl: fiddlerwoaroof: are you saying that latitudinal circles have some latitude in their widths?
2016-11-29T17:19:23Z sjl: s/lengths/
2016-11-29T17:19:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: that too
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2016-11-29T17:21:08Z TMA: easye: well, etymologically it is so. it probably comes from the age when the christian qibla was Jerusalem (and the world was still flat). that would the width dimension make roughly north/south in Rome/Italy
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2016-11-29T17:21:54Z easye: TMA: the world was never really flat to any sailor.
2016-11-29T17:22:11Z easye: How else do you explain just seeing the top of a sail of a ship at first?
2016-11-29T17:22:11Z Xach: best way to remember is that dava sobel's bestseller about fixing east-west positions in age of sail navigation and the race to develop an accurate-enough portable clock is called "longitude", not "latitude"
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2016-11-29T17:22:52Z easye: Xach: yep.
2016-11-29T17:22:54Z TMA: easye: the sailors rarely were the ones coming up with the nomenclature though
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2016-11-29T17:26:41Z igam: phoe: yes, I am.  But now I'm leaving work to go home.
2016-11-29T17:27:19Z phoe: igam: got it.
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2016-11-29T17:30:55Z easye: Hmm.  Maybe latitude is from width because "lines of equal latitude" run east-west...
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2016-11-29T19:40:06Z White_Flame: Is there a date library where I can ask the number of days between two arbitrary dates?
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2016-11-29T19:41:20Z H4ns: White_Flame: local-time can at least do it indirectly, by allowing you to convert dates to universal time which you can then perform arithmetic on.
2016-11-29T19:41:51Z White_Flame: universal time doesn't help, though
2016-11-29T19:42:00Z H4ns: because?
2016-11-29T19:42:05Z White_Flame: for a day-delta between dates on different months/years
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2016-11-29T19:42:18Z oGMo: then you want something more complicated than _day count_, which is simple arithmetic
2016-11-29T19:42:36Z White_Flame: yep
2016-11-29T19:42:37Z oGMo: White_Flame: that doesn't matter if you convert both to epoch time
2016-11-29T19:42:46Z oGMo: you can still count the days
2016-11-29T19:42:52Z H4ns: White_Flame: if universal time is not it, then julian date + year might work.
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2016-11-29T19:43:06Z adlai: local-time:timestamp-difference
2016-11-29T19:43:35Z oGMo: what's hard is if you want more specific calendar info between arbitrary times in specific timezones
2016-11-29T19:43:53Z White_Flame: adlai: ah, I think the docs I'm looking at are out of date
2016-11-29T19:44:24Z adlai: oh but this difference is in seconds, so you still need to convert
2016-11-29T19:45:18Z White_Flame: right.  I'm not sure if leap-seconds and such are meaningful, but it'd be nice if a lib already did it [in]directly.  I certainly know how much of a pain date/time processing is
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2016-11-29T21:52:00Z akkad: can one assume abcl has a mostly working clos/mop implementation?
2016-11-29T21:54:00Z easye: akkad: Yes.  ABCL works well with CLOSER-MOP.
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2016-11-29T22:01:36Z phoe: What is the state of CL on Android/iOS?
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2016-11-29T22:05:04Z younder: phoe: http://clojure-android.info/ is all I can think of. Not a CL, but..
2016-11-29T22:05:34Z attila_lendvai: White_Flame: The Right Way would be to render both timestamps into date objects (which requires choosing a calendar system), and then use a (hypothetical) calendar-difference/days method. but local-time is nowhere near ready for that, see its TODO...
2016-11-29T22:06:29Z rlatimore: @phoe ECL is in the app store, or was a bit ago, haven't checked lately. I believe it's still there though. and I wouldn't imagine it'd be too hard to get ABCL going on android.
2016-11-29T22:07:48Z rlatimore: phoe: CCL has extensions for Cocoa, but I'm not sure if it supports iOS. They do have a nice looking app in the App Store though (pre-built editor + toolchain).
2016-11-29T22:07:55Z younder: rlatimore, android and ios are not listed as supported patforms for ABCL.
2016-11-29T22:08:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: phoe: a while ago dto wrote up something about delivering lisp applications on mobile using ECL
2016-11-29T22:08:31Z fiddlerwoaroof:  
2016-11-29T22:08:35Z younder: Well it does say google app engine
2016-11-29T22:09:20Z Arathnim: phoe: There's something called Mocl for Android & iOS, but I think it's proprietary.
2016-11-29T22:09:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/posts/ECL-Quarterly-Volume-IV.html#orgheadline18
2016-11-29T22:09:38Z rlatimore: yonder: that's why I said it 'should' be 'pretty easy' to get it going on Android, simply b/c people seem to be able to get Java things running faster than native things.
2016-11-29T22:09:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: I don't think ABCL works on Android
2016-11-29T22:10:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: It uses some kind of code generation feature that doesn't work on Dalvik/Art
2016-11-29T22:10:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: I forget the details, but I looked into it a while ago: in fact, many languages such as Clojure and Groovy (?) are difficult to port to Android for similar reasons.
2016-11-29T22:11:21Z rlatimore: fiddlerwoaroof: ah that makes sense. classic write once, run everywhere /s
2016-11-29T22:11:30Z groovy2shoes: I dunno, I've been running Android just fine ¬_¬
2016-11-29T22:12:04Z phoe: younder: rlatimore: fiddlerwoaroof: Arathnim: thanks!
2016-11-29T22:12:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: Well, Android never actually had a real jvm
2016-11-29T22:12:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: There was some licensing issue with Sun initially and then the whole Oracle lawsuit.
2016-11-29T22:12:59Z groovy2shoes: fiddlerwoaroof, there's been a Clojure REPL app for Android for ages...  I'm not sure what it does to get itself working on Dalvik, but it still works fine although it hasn't been updated in ages
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2016-11-29T22:14:46Z rlatimore: fiddlerwoaroof: I think we may want to make the distinction between real & officially blessed.
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2016-11-29T22:15:48Z fourier: Lispworks has Android and iOS ports, not sure how good are they
2016-11-29T22:16:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: rlatimore: I forget the details, but certain parts of the official Java spec aren't available on Android, I think it's the Reflection APIs or something like that
2016-11-29T22:17:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, it's been a while since I looked into this, I just remember reading that porting a language to the Dalvik VM was non-trivial
2016-11-29T22:19:05Z groovy2shoes: ah, yeah, the Reflection API is pretty important for a lot of dynamic languages running on the JVM
2016-11-29T22:19:14Z varjag: is it?
2016-11-29T22:19:42Z groovy2shoes: more static languages, though, should run fine, since the Dalvik bytecode is translated from the JVM bytecode
2016-11-29T22:20:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: http://osdir.com/ml/armedbear-devel/2011-08/msg00017.html
2016-11-29T22:20:44Z groovy2shoes: varjag, the Reflection API is how you'd get RTTI without needing to add extra runtime type tags yourself, if I'm not mistaken
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2016-11-29T22:21:20Z varjag: i remember compiling a dynamic language into jvm, but fuzzy on details
2016-11-29T22:21:32Z varjag: been some 12 years
2016-11-29T22:22:03Z varjag: don't remember reflection being necessary at all
2016-11-29T22:22:15Z varjag: i remember 64kb code segments sucked
2016-11-29T22:22:31Z lisp105: does anyone remember how to return the argument list for a lambda?
2016-11-29T22:22:50Z groovy2shoes: varjag, I could be mistaken, it's been a while since I've looked into it, myself
2016-11-29T22:22:57Z phoe: lisp105: for an anonymous function? hm
2016-11-29T22:23:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: clhs FUNCTION-LAMBDA-EXPRESSION
2016-11-29T22:23:20Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_fn_lam.htm
2016-11-29T22:23:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: maybe?
2016-11-29T22:23:24Z rlatimore: fiddlerwoaroof: thanks for the follow up info
2016-11-29T22:23:25Z phoe: OUCH
2016-11-29T22:23:34Z phoe: Xach: I have an error report for QL package TRIVIAL-ARGUMENTS
2016-11-29T22:23:44Z phoe: It has an implicit dependency on SWANK.
2016-11-29T22:23:51Z groovy2shoes: I remember a few Java APIs not being available on the Dalvik runtime, which is fine for most Java apps, but less fine for dynamic language implementations that want to do runtime codegen and inspection
2016-11-29T22:24:04Z phoe: Run SBCL from terminal so it does not load Swank and eval (ql:quickload :trivial-arguments)
2016-11-29T22:24:13Z phoe:   Error finding package for symbol "ARGLIST":
2016-11-29T22:24:14Z phoe:  The name "SWANK/BACKEND" does not designate any package.
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2016-11-29T22:24:54Z phoe: lisp105: anyway
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2016-11-29T22:24:58Z phoe: (ql:quickload :trivial-arguments)
2016-11-29T22:25:14Z phoe: (trivial-arguments:arglist (lambda (foo bar &key baz) ()))
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2016-11-29T22:30:55Z lisp105: arglist was exactly what i was looking for :D
2016-11-29T22:30:57Z lisp105: thanks
2016-11-29T22:31:10Z lisp105: the function-lambda-expression was close too :)
2016-11-29T22:31:14Z attila_lendvai: phoe: thatás more wicked... it uses conditional compilation with #+swank... you compiled it with swank loaded, and try to load the fasl without swank.
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2016-11-29T22:34:08Z attila_lendvai: phoe: FYI, https://github.com/Shinmera/trivial-arguments/issues/2
2016-11-29T22:36:30Z younder: http://www.cliki.net/linedit makes using the command line SBCL less of a pain. (Read the entire page before using or be sorry)
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2016-11-29T22:40:21Z jurov: Is there CL version of https://github.com/magnars/dash.el ? I think I (poorly) reimplemented a third of it already...
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2016-11-29T22:58:02Z younder: linedit is not without problems it seems. Debugging!
2016-11-29T22:58:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, linedit can be a pain
2016-11-29T23:00:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: One annoying thing is that I get a little bell symbol when I hit tab in certain circumstances, but that bell symbol isn't actually part of the input, so hitting backspace removes the previous character rather than removing the bell symbol.  I found that typing ) reformats the line, which helps a bit.
2016-11-29T23:00:13Z Arathnim: I've found the rlwrap solution to be very nice when using sbcl from a normal terminal.
2016-11-29T23:00:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, being able to hit alt+i and getting the describe of the current symbol is really nice.
2016-11-29T23:01:12Z phoe: attila_lendvai: ooh.
2016-11-29T23:01:35Z phoe: this is an issue for Shinmera to fix then.
2016-11-29T23:01:40Z phoe: good thing it's already open. Thanks!
2016-11-29T23:01:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: Plus, if you hit meta-h in linedit, you get a nice listing of keys, including some paredit-like bindings.
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2016-11-29T23:02:13Z attila_lendvai: phoe: I just opened it reading your discussion... :)
2016-11-29T23:02:33Z Arathnim: That sounds a lot nicer, although those bugs look difficult.
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2016-11-29T23:03:11Z phoe: attila_lendvai: I noticed. :D
2016-11-29T23:03:54Z Arathnim: fiddlerwoaroof: I'm curious, do you use sbcl from the terminal a lot? I almost always use a slime repl.
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2016-11-29T23:04:59Z Xach: phoe: how so
2016-11-29T23:05:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: It depends, I generally use slime when working on a project, but the terminal when I want to try something out
2016-11-29T23:05:53Z younder: Arathnim, 'sudo modprobe pcspkr' installs the driver that produces beeps, That seems to remove the bell symbol
2016-11-29T23:06:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: Cool
2016-11-29T23:06:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: And, I don't actually have my pc speaker hooked up, so it doesn't annoy me.
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2016-11-29T23:07:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: In my experience, Solaris's terminal bell is the worst
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2016-11-29T23:08:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: It has something to do with the combination of tones they picked, or something.
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2016-11-29T23:12:14Z phoe: Xach: welp, I thought that's some mismatched dependencies
2016-11-29T23:12:19Z phoe: but attila_lendvai already filed a proper issue for that
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