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2016-11-28T02:42:17Z vtomole: Why do the logs stop at nov 20th?
2016-11-28T02:43:15Z Xach: which logs?
2016-11-28T02:43:37Z Bike: the clozure logs? the bot is kind of bad at figuring out how to put things in day logs, for some reason. the month logs should have evverything.
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2016-11-28T02:49:36Z vtomole: Bike: ahh, I never read the month logs. Thank you!
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2016-11-28T02:53:21Z vtomole: Is there anyone online who hacks on cmucl? I'm having problems building it.
2016-11-28T02:54:53Z Xach: vtomole: not usually
2016-11-28T02:55:03Z Xach: vtomole: it's not common to build your own cmucl - what circumstance finds you doing it?
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2016-11-28T02:56:26Z vtomole: I tried installing it using ubuntu's package manager, but it doesn't exist, I don't know how else to install it on my computer.
2016-11-28T02:56:45Z Xach: vtomole: normally you would download a binary from cmucl.org
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2016-11-28T02:58:37Z Xach: vtomole: what prompts the interest in cmucl? it is not a very common choice lately.
2016-11-28T02:58:40Z pillton: vtomole: Building CMUCL can be quite challenging.
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2016-11-28T03:00:46Z vtomole: Xach: I just wanted to show it some love...  by checking the repo, it seems like someone is still developing it. It seems like cmucl and clisp are dying, I wonder why.
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2016-11-28T03:02:04Z Xach: it's hard to really die, but they are less active than most
2016-11-28T03:03:47Z pillton: vtomole: A particular version of CMUCL may be required to build newer versions.
2016-11-28T03:04:29Z vtomole: ahhh that seems like too much of a hassle, so i'm not going to do it haha.
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2016-11-28T03:04:42Z pillton: The version required may not be an official release too.
2016-11-28T03:05:37Z pillton: rtoy responds to issues at https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/cmucl/cmucl/issues
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2016-11-28T03:08:08Z akkad: rebuilding cmucl from scratch is a rite of passage
2016-11-28T03:08:09Z minion: akkad, memo from easye: I am curious:  did you resolve your problems with ABCL, or decided to do something different?
2016-11-28T03:08:23Z akkad: minion: how do you know that name?
2016-11-28T03:08:24Z minion: good for you
2016-11-28T03:08:31Z Xach: i skipped that rite when i found out sbcl worked a little better with ilisp for me
2016-11-28T03:08:40Z pillton: vtomole: You aren't alone in that opinion. http://www.doc.gold.ac.uk/~mas01cr/papers/s32008/sbcl.pdf
2016-11-28T03:08:54Z akkad: yeah sbcl is nice when you are on a older platform
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2016-11-28T03:13:17Z Xach: i use it on all platforms
2016-11-28T03:13:28Z Xach: old, new, and middle-aged
2016-11-28T03:14:23Z edgar-rft: does SBCL run on CP/M?
2016-11-28T03:19:01Z vtomole: edgar: I don't think so...
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2016-11-28T03:24:04Z edgar-rft: That's what I thought. So SBCL doesn't even run on middle-aged platforms. I don't wanna know what McCarty and Russel used in 1948.
2016-11-28T03:24:33Z edgar-rft: *McCarthy (with a h)
2016-11-28T03:24:40Z Zhivago: Their imaginations, iirc.
2016-11-28T03:25:55Z edgar-rft: Jokes aside :-), I just try to find out what the stoneage IBM machines used, probably assembly or binary op-codes.
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2016-11-28T03:31:48Z vtomole: pillton:That paper says that the garbage collector was written in C, looks like they changed that:https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/master/src/code/gc.lisp
2016-11-28T03:32:10Z krwq: could someone help me understanding what's wrong here: http://paste.lisp.org/display/332722 ?
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2016-11-28T03:32:34Z Bike: vtomole: that file doesn't really have the actual logic in it, i don't think
2016-11-28T03:33:05Z Bike: krwq: make-instance doesn't take arbitrary arguments
2016-11-28T03:34:27Z Bike: which is what the error message should tell you
2016-11-28T03:34:55Z krwq: Bike: I'm trying to use hunchensockets and when using my class which inherits from hunchensocket:websocket-client it seems to be initialized with some random args which come from the request - i'm trying to figure what args those are
2016-11-28T03:35:25Z Bike: if you can get a hold of the object, you can call DESCRIBE on it to see what's in the slots
2016-11-28T03:36:20Z Bike: or inspect it, or the like
2016-11-28T03:36:49Z krwq: Bike: i got no clue how to do that - i only have the access to the instance in methods like client-connected but i haven't learned how to debug yet
2016-11-28T03:37:03Z pillton: clhs describe
2016-11-28T03:37:03Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_descri.htm
2016-11-28T03:37:10Z Bike: now's the time, i guess!
2016-11-28T03:37:33Z Bike: you could just call describe in a method, probably, all it does is throw some shit at stdout
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2016-11-28T03:39:28Z lemonpie: edgar-rft: this might give some insight: http://www.textfiles.com/bitsavers/pdf/mit/computer_center/Coding_for_the_MIT-IBM_704_Computer_Oct57.pdf
2016-11-28T03:39:29Z krwq: it's not displaying anything - probably because it's running in a thread
2016-11-28T03:39:40Z Bike: oh. yeah, what a pain
2016-11-28T03:39:54Z krwq: is there some way to sync with main thread?
2016-11-28T03:41:13Z pillton: force-output?
2016-11-28T03:41:31Z pillton: It might send the output to *inferior-lisp* too (assuming you are using SLIME).
2016-11-28T03:41:38Z edgar-rft: lemonpie: Great! Thank you!
2016-11-28T03:43:56Z krwq: force-output didn't help
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2016-11-28T03:45:47Z pillton: (describe object *terminal-io*)?
2016-11-28T03:51:08Z _death: krwq: log4cl makes things easy there
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2016-11-28T03:51:56Z loke really likes the log4cl plugin to SLIME.
2016-11-28T03:52:04Z krwq: pillton: not working - _death: will check it out now
2016-11-28T03:52:10Z loke: A pity log4cl seems to be unmaintained.
2016-11-28T03:53:34Z pillton: Seriously. Who binds *terminal-io*?
2016-11-28T03:54:09Z _death: slime
2016-11-28T03:54:57Z krwq: is there any easy way to get log:info's stream or just create new string output and describe?
2016-11-28T03:55:29Z _death: krwq: you can use :allow-other-keys t to make it "work"
2016-11-28T03:55:38Z loke: krwq: Log:info doesn't have a stream on its own, I think. It sends the output to a formatter that handles the output.
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2016-11-28T03:56:42Z loke: Actually, they call it an "appender"... I think.
2016-11-28T03:57:20Z krwq: Nice! works!
2016-11-28T03:57:25Z krwq: thank you guys!
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2016-11-28T03:57:46Z loke: Wait a second! Someone had an actual use-case for :ALLOW-OTHER-KEYS?
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2016-11-28T03:58:05Z loke: Oh, woe is me who joined before I read the explanation of the issue.
2016-11-28T03:58:27Z _death: loke: well, seems the issue at hand didn't need it after all
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2016-11-28T04:02:39Z krwq: I mean output works but I don't understand how is :user-agent being passed in class inherited from hunchensocket:websocket-client - i don't see user-agent as a slot in describe - is there a way to display all accessors? I can see REQUEST in the hunchensocket but and i'm pretty sure that's coming from there but who passed the actual arg? i can see this piece of code https://github.com/joaotavora/hunchensocket/blob/ma
2016-11-28T04:02:39Z krwq: ster/hunchensocket.lisp#L188 but i don't understand how they can pass arbitrary args to the initialize-instance and I can't receive them
2016-11-28T04:04:37Z krwq: so you can do (make-instance 'classname ....arbitrary args here) but you can't do &rest in the initialize-instance
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2016-11-28T04:05:02Z pillton: &rest args &key &allow-other-keys
2016-11-28T04:05:55Z Bike: no, that won't work for make instance
2016-11-28T04:06:05Z Bike: er
2016-11-28T04:06:08Z Bike: nevermind, it does
2016-11-28T04:06:15Z _death: https://github.com/joaotavora/hunchensocket/blob/master/hunchensocket.lisp#L52
2016-11-28T04:06:51Z krwq: pillton: yeh, it doesn't work: "There is no applicable method for the generic function"
2016-11-28T04:07:05Z loke: When definiting a method for INITIALIZE-INSTANCE you must always add &KEY at the end, like so (defmethod initialize-instance ((obj XXX) &key) ...code...)
2016-11-28T04:07:20Z loke: otherwise you will have problems.
2016-11-28T04:07:28Z krwq: loke: but &rest should satisfy generic function as well
2016-11-28T04:07:46Z loke: krwq: It would, but then you get a rest variable that you'll need to declare ignore.
2016-11-28T04:07:55Z loke: it's also less clear, IMHO. But sure.
2016-11-28T04:07:59Z _death: krwq: what doesn't work?..
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2016-11-28T04:08:21Z krwq: _death: i'm trying to setf all args passed to initialize-instance to one of the slots
2016-11-28T04:08:50Z _death: (defmethod initialize-instance ((obj foo) &rest args &key &allow-other-keys) 'should-work)
2016-11-28T04:08:55Z krwq: _death: make-instance*
2016-11-28T04:09:14Z loke: _death: You don't need &ALLOW-OTHER-KEYS.
2016-11-28T04:09:23Z _death: (add :after for flavor)
2016-11-28T04:09:26Z loke: Addign that is problematic, in fact.
2016-11-28T04:09:32Z pillton: loke: On SBCL you do for some reason.
2016-11-28T04:09:39Z _death: loke: you do if you want to pass arbitrary arguments
2016-11-28T04:09:53Z krwq: _death: that's exactly what i'm doing now: (defmethod initialize-instance :after ((instance user) &rest args &key &allow-other-keys)
2016-11-28T04:09:53Z pillton: Oh destructuring.
2016-11-28T04:10:12Z _death: krwq: so, can you give a test case
2016-11-28T04:10:34Z loke: _death: Yes, but if you do that, then every single call to MAKE-INSTANCE (regardless of class) will now accept arbitrary arguments, so that you won't have an error when you are passing incorrect keywords anymore.
2016-11-28T04:10:56Z _death: loke: incorrect
2016-11-28T04:11:10Z pillton: loke: It is the generic function that determines what is congruent and what isn't.
2016-11-28T04:11:44Z pillton: loke: The issue only arises when the method lambda function is invoked.
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2016-11-28T04:11:47Z krwq: _death: wait - my test case works - i've probably mistyped something in the websockets example
2016-11-28T04:13:22Z _death: loke: the initargs check is distinct from keyword parameter check
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2016-11-28T04:13:55Z _death: loke: make-instance/initialize-instance/... already have &allow-other-keys
2016-11-28T04:15:06Z krwq: my mini example works but when inheriting from hunchensocket:websocket-client it doesn't
2016-11-28T04:15:58Z krwq: i keep getting: There is no applicable method for the generic function
2016-11-28T04:17:37Z krwq: damn - nevermind - i've pasted the slot to the wrong class...... facepalm
2016-11-28T04:18:22Z krwq: too many brackets :)
2016-11-28T04:18:37Z _death: and now, it's time to sleep
2016-11-28T04:19:26Z krwq: _death: i guess, thank you all for help - i'm still not quite sure why do i need all &rest, &key and &allow-other-keys
2016-11-28T04:19:34Z krwq: seems like only &rest should suffice
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2016-11-28T04:29:27Z _death: ok came back to say that my initargs check remark is irrelevant, and pillton's explanation is correct
2016-11-28T04:29:49Z _death: clhs 7.6.5
2016-11-28T04:29:49Z specbot: Keyword Arguments in Generic Functions and Methods: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/07_fe.htm
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2016-11-28T04:31:41Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2016-11-28T04:33:28Z krwq: Good morning beach!
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2016-11-28T07:24:39Z django_: hey
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2016-11-28T07:26:19Z lemonpie: hi django_
2016-11-28T07:29:03Z django_: lemonpie, what you up to?
2016-11-28T07:29:27Z lemonpie: right this second nothing...
2016-11-28T07:29:57Z django_: haha
2016-11-28T07:30:14Z lemonpie: spent most of the night rewriting my object system though, now thinking about whether to try and think about compiler design again
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2016-11-28T07:32:00Z django_: lemonpie, object system?
2016-11-28T07:32:41Z lemonpie: only a fairly simple one, for scheme
2016-11-28T07:33:00Z Zhivago: Anything interesting about it?
2016-11-28T07:33:17Z lemonpie: not unless you were a fan of xlisp2/+
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2016-11-28T07:34:32Z django_: whats an object system>
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2016-11-28T07:36:38Z loke: django_: It's the model for object orientation that is used by a programming languahe.
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2016-11-28T07:41:11Z Zhivago: Hmm, I remember xlisp.
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2016-11-28T07:44:28Z django_: idk if i should build something with python or learn lisp
2016-11-28T07:44:32Z lemonpie: Zhivago: it was the lisp we were taught at university to teach us OOP, for some reason CLOS was too new and fancy (or more likely the common lisp implementation we had didn't support it)
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2016-11-28T07:47:46Z Zhivago: django; Why not build half in python and half in lisp?
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2016-11-28T07:52:36Z django_: interesting Zhivago
2016-11-28T07:52:44Z django_: lisp gives me a headache lol
2016-11-28T07:52:50Z django_: python feels so natural
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2016-11-28T07:54:44Z flip214: django_: interesting, for me it's the other way around
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2016-11-28T07:55:29Z django_: hah
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2016-11-28T08:00:38Z lemonpie: for me, C is probably the language I feel most 'at ease' in, but that's purely because it's the langauge I've programmed the longest (well, ok, pascal would be, but I haven't touched pascal for like 25 years), lisps/scheme-in-particular feel 'right', but there's a lot of things that are outside my comfort zone on them
2016-11-28T08:01:53Z flip214: One of my griefs with Python is that the "ternary operator" evaluates all three parts...
2016-11-28T08:02:15Z flip214: and has the wrong order of arguments.
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2016-11-28T08:06:22Z lemonpie: it doesn't seem to evaluate all 3 terms to me...
2016-11-28T08:08:19Z loke: lemonpie: I am similar to you, but getting rid of the Lisp discomfort only took less than a year.
2016-11-28T08:08:35Z loke: I get intesly frustrated when developing in other languages now.
2016-11-28T08:09:13Z lemonpie nods
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2016-11-28T08:19:21Z aeth: I used to like Python a lot. I still grant it one point. It focuses on readability as a language cultural thing (it's possible to write unreadable code in any language). That means if you know Python you can probably tell what any random .py file is doing, assuming it was written by someone who respects Pythonic style. This is more random .py files than you might think.
2016-11-28T08:19:52Z aeth: I don't think it's just familiarity because I'd probably put Python at #3 or lower by now in terms of languages I'm familiar with.
2016-11-28T08:20:09Z aeth: Documentation is usually part of this readability.
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2016-11-28T08:22:06Z django_: loke, what kind of software do you develop?
2016-11-28T08:22:08Z aeth: I wish CL would focus on this more. It even has some advantages over Python if the community made it a goal. If I go into a random CL file, I don't really see the consistent style.
2016-11-28T08:24:43Z lemonpie: *nod* you even see multiple code styles in the same file sometimes, just looking at one scheme file here, there's a whole bunch of helper functions that use nothing but variables of the form i<n> and c<n>, then there's some code that uses 20-character long useful and meaningful variable names
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2016-11-28T08:26:31Z loke: django_: In Lisp?
2016-11-28T08:26:38Z django_: loke, yes
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2016-11-28T10:00:49Z p_l: aeth: interestingly enough, after long break I found python to be much less pleasant to read. I might be able to figure out what the code does, but dislike reading it immensely
2016-11-28T10:01:58Z django_: lol
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2016-11-28T10:11:20Z p_l: and in some projects I had to recently brush up my python
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2016-11-28T14:15:24Z yoloziggins: Hi
2016-11-28T14:15:46Z yoloziggins: i'm trying out slime for the first time
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2016-11-28T14:16:17Z yoloziggins: and C-q C-c is not auto-completing the brackets
2016-11-28T14:16:57Z yoloziggins: * C-c C-q
2016-11-28T14:17:28Z yoloziggins: Gives a 'not defined' error
2016-11-28T14:17:43Z Xach: yoloziggins: it does not normally do that
2016-11-28T14:18:09Z yoloziggins: Do I have to define it somewhere?
2016-11-28T14:18:11Z Xach: yoloziggins: C-c M-q does something like that.
2016-11-28T14:18:12Z JeanMax: what's the name of the function you're trying to call? C-h f it
2016-11-28T14:18:30Z yoloziggins: Let me try it out
2016-11-28T14:19:17Z yoloziggins: Nah. C-c M-q isn't working wither
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2016-11-28T14:19:21Z yoloziggins: either*
2016-11-28T14:19:27Z Xach: yoloziggins: "not defined" as well?
2016-11-28T14:19:33Z yoloziggins: yup
2016-11-28T14:19:42Z JeanMax: M-x slime-close-all-parens-in-sexp
2016-11-28T14:19:44Z Xach: yoloziggins: is the file in lisp mode?
2016-11-28T14:19:51Z Xach: buffer, rather
2016-11-28T14:21:15Z yoloziggins: Ah. C-c M-q seems to be working now.
2016-11-28T14:22:05Z yoloziggins: I think i was typing that into the REPL buffer
2016-11-28T14:22:44Z yoloziggins: This books seems to have gotten the command wrong as well: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/lather-rinse-repeat-a-tour-of-the-repl.html
2016-11-28T14:23:31Z yoloziggins: Xach: Thanks!
2016-11-28T14:23:40Z Xach: no problem
2016-11-28T14:24:25Z _death: I use C-c C-] for that
2016-11-28T14:24:28Z dlowe: yoloziggins: the book is over ten years old. It seems likely that slime has changed since then
2016-11-28T14:24:46Z yoloziggins: yeah. looks like it.
2016-11-28T14:25:04Z yoloziggins: Is there a better alternative to that book?
2016-11-28T14:25:25Z dlowe: Not for learning CL.
2016-11-28T14:25:43Z dlowe: Most CL books don't even cover slime.
2016-11-28T14:26:10Z dlowe: We should bug gigamonkey for a second edition :)
2016-11-28T14:26:37Z yoloziggins: Another side question: How good is lisp for computer vision?
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2016-11-28T14:27:08Z yoloziggins: I know about clojure and opencv.
2016-11-28T14:28:02Z dlowe: I wouldn't expect it to have any advantages or disadvantages specifically for computer vision.
2016-11-28T14:28:03Z yoloziggins: But I am curious about working with neural networks and computer vision  using lisp.
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2016-11-28T14:29:05Z dlowe: I think that there are many advantages to using lisp generally, though.
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2016-11-28T14:29:59Z Xach: yoloziggins: the disadvantage is there is less existing work from others to reuse.
2016-11-28T14:30:04Z Xach: there are fewer others.
2016-11-28T14:30:25Z dlowe: Yeah, you will probably be using non-lisp libraries from your lisp program.
2016-11-28T14:30:46Z yoloziggins: Hmmm...
2016-11-28T14:31:13Z yoloziggins: Looks like I will be learning it as a hobby then!
2016-11-28T14:31:42Z dlowe: Well, the alternative is to use non-lisp libraries from your non-lisp program. :)
2016-11-28T14:31:50Z dlowe: and that sounds even worse
2016-11-28T14:32:28Z yoloziggins: Hehe. I was thinking of switching because I found C++ with its templates and what-not to be slow.
2016-11-28T14:33:12Z yoloziggins: Especially while compiling, making it cumbersome to test new additions quickly.
2016-11-28T14:33:29Z dlowe: yeah, lisp is great for incremental development
2016-11-28T14:34:16Z yoloziggins: Since I'll be learning it for fun, is lisp any good for game development?
2016-11-28T14:35:36Z yoloziggins: And I don't mean just text-based adventure games.
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2016-11-28T14:36:16Z p_l: yoloziggins: a bunch of people have used lisp for game developement, but specifics wary a lot
2016-11-28T14:37:05Z p_l: some people use it for scripting inside games, some for toolsets, some write whole games
2016-11-28T14:37:07Z yoloziggins: r/lispgamedev is a ghost town.
2016-11-28T14:37:47Z p_l: try #lispgamedev on freenode
2016-11-28T14:37:59Z Xach: david o'toole organized a meetup in new england this year
2016-11-28T14:38:07Z yoloziggins: Yeah, will give that a shot.
2016-11-28T14:38:11Z p_l: yeah, dto is name to know :)
2016-11-28T14:38:23Z yoloziggins: dto?
2016-11-28T14:41:14Z dlowe: #lispgames
2016-11-28T14:42:10Z yoloziggins: Thanks.
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2016-11-28T14:49:54Z phoe: #lispgames is not a ghost town~
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2016-11-28T15:00:30Z _death: unfortunately nowadays python is the language to use for machine learning.. and opencv has good bindings for it as well.  in lisp there are libraries like mgl and clml
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2016-11-28T15:04:22Z jurov: what about hylang?
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2016-11-28T15:05:00Z jurov: (a lisp dialect running as py bytecode)
2016-11-28T15:07:11Z _death: I don't know.. I don't like such projects
2016-11-28T15:07:53Z jurov: true, it smells of #notinventedhere syndrome, but dunno, i have not tried it
2016-11-28T15:08:16Z dlowe: You could ask on ##lisp, which is for all lisp dialects.
2016-11-28T15:08:31Z dlowe: people might be more familiar with it there
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2016-11-28T15:08:55Z jurov: and there's no common lisp directly interfacing with python?
2016-11-28T15:09:14Z dlowe: I guess you could run an embedded python as a foreign library.
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2016-11-28T15:09:47Z Xach: clpython is an implementation of python in cl
2016-11-28T15:10:00Z Xach recalls a demo at ILC 2009
2016-11-28T15:10:31Z jurov: "The project was started in 2006, and is currently (2013) not under active development anymore."
2016-11-28T15:10:32Z dlowe: not developed since 2013. Too bad.
2016-11-28T15:11:05Z dlowe: There's not that much enthusiasm for interoperability in any language community.
2016-11-28T15:11:38Z dlowe: It's generally something you do only if you're forced to.
2016-11-28T15:12:10Z _death: because it's python, the "python" machine learning libraries I'm talking about are mostly written in C++ anyway
2016-11-28T15:13:29Z _death: so unless clpython nailed down the FFI support as well..
2016-11-28T15:13:49Z jurov: Right, and these libs are too tightly coupled, even pypy has problems to use them
2016-11-28T15:14:05Z hjudt: why do i get a style warning when using &optional and &key in defgeneric/defmethod? why is that considered bad style?
2016-11-28T15:14:34Z _death: hjudt: because if you want to pass a key parameter you need to supply the optional ones as well
2016-11-28T15:15:07Z hjudt: oh. i cannot use the key parameter with the optional ones? that is bad indeed.
2016-11-28T15:15:12Z hjudt: thanks
2016-11-28T15:15:23Z lieven: yeah. the standard made that mistake with READ-FROM-STRING.
2016-11-28T15:19:25Z dlowe: hjudt: you *can* use them, it's just annoying.
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2016-11-28T15:24:42Z PuercoPop: jurov: maybe this can help you https://github.com/mmontone/burgled-batteries
2016-11-28T15:26:07Z jurov: interesting,ty
2016-11-28T15:27:10Z PuercoPop: jurov: hylang is good enough, but it is modeled after clojure more than (common) lisp. It does all compilation (of hy to bytecode) at import time iirc so I don't know if long compilation times could be a nuisance when working from the REPL.
2016-11-28T15:27:40Z fandral: I'm having trouble trying to figure out how I can make a list of 2-tuples where each 2-tuple has a name of a function and then a mathematical expression that evaluates to a number. so an example would be ((func1 (+ 3 5)) (func2 (* 4 6)) (func3 (- 6 2)))
2016-11-28T15:29:31Z fandral: the mathematical expression should evaluate to the number, so it should really be ((func1 7) (func2 24) (func3 4))
2016-11-28T15:29:55Z _death: fandral: it's not clear what trouble it is that you're having
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2016-11-28T15:32:00Z flip214: fandral: you might need to make a list out of that, like (list (func1 ...) (func2 ...) (func3 ...))
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2016-11-28T15:32:46Z fandral: but doesnt it try to execute func1?
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2016-11-28T15:33:40Z dlowe: `((func1 ,(+ 3 5)) (func2 ,(* 4 6)) (func3 ,(- 6 2))) will do what you want
2016-11-28T15:33:44Z dlowe: note the backquote
2016-11-28T15:34:40Z dlowe: if you're building it in runtime, you'll want to use LIST, but using LIST or CONS inside the list to prevent execution where you don't want it
2016-11-28T15:34:58Z dlowe: (list (cons 'func1 (+ 3 5)) ...)
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2016-11-28T15:36:56Z fandral: Ah thank you that makes sense
2016-11-28T15:38:38Z Xach: fandral: /win 3
2016-11-28T15:38:41Z Xach: err, oops.
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2016-11-28T15:52:30Z knobo: Can I perform an operation when my asdf system is required, and do I get information about who required me?
2016-11-28T15:53:05Z _death: asdf-system-connections was a thing once
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2016-11-28T16:27:14Z knobo: during loading
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2016-11-28T16:37:27Z akkad: what is a good ref for mop/clos other than pcl?
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2016-11-28T16:38:32Z jackdaniel: amop
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2016-11-28T16:39:27Z Xach: amop is good for mop. keene's CLOS is good for clos.
2016-11-28T16:39:36Z Xach: w&h lisp 3rd ed has some clos stuff too
2016-11-28T16:39:58Z Xach: and that has the advantage of one author being named 'berthold klaus paul horn', one of my favorite names.
2016-11-28T16:40:40Z PuercoPop: akkad: Is a good reference http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/
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2016-11-28T16:42:55Z PuercoPop: if you want to get a hang of how can a MOP be useful/leveraged. Objected-oriented programming: The CLOS perspective is a good book, it is a collection of mostly a collection of publications which you can hunt down separately if you don't want to buy the book.
2016-11-28T16:45:00Z akkad: thanks
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2016-11-28T16:48:44Z _death: there are also the pclos papers (and mopintro).. as well as rpg's writings
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2016-11-28T17:43:26Z django_: what are you guys working on?
2016-11-28T17:44:07Z Xach: a compatibility layer for running modern allegroserve
2016-11-28T17:44:16Z Xach: and a 2d graphics/colors/layout library
2016-11-28T17:44:37Z Xach: (the latter is for fun)
2016-11-28T17:44:43Z akkad: hmm
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2016-11-28T18:51:17Z warweasle: Is there any common lisp code for highlighting common lisp code? I'm asking for a friend.
2016-11-28T18:52:32Z Xach: warweasle: the stuff behind paste.lisp.org is called "colorize"
2016-11-28T18:53:12Z warweasle: Xach: Is that in Lisp?
2016-11-28T18:53:18Z Xach: warweasle: it is
2016-11-28T18:53:26Z Xach: warweasle: it is pretty old, though, and i'm not sure where you can get it
2016-11-28T18:54:00Z warweasle: Xach: I was looking at slime's implementation...and my head hurts.
2016-11-28T18:56:09Z PuercoPop: warweasle: https://github.com/kingcons/colorize
2016-11-28T18:56:32Z PuercoPop: it is used by coleslaw to colorize the code blocks iirc
2016-11-28T18:56:56Z warweasle: PuercoPop: Thanks!
2016-11-28T19:01:08Z PuercoPop: warweasle: Scymtym also has one that uses a code walker https://github.com/scymtym/sbcl/blob/wip-walk-forms-new-marco-stuff/examples/code-walking-example-syntax-highlighting.lisp
2016-11-28T19:01:57Z PuercoPop: (but I imagine that compiling a new SBCL just for syntax highlighting is too much)
2016-11-28T19:05:12Z warweasle: PuercoPop: Hmmm. I never even know that was an option.
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2016-11-28T19:07:35Z PuercoPop: warweasle: well a codewalker seems the easier approach to avoid the common pitfall of highlighting keywords. ej (defun foo (let) ...) shouldn't highlight let as it was the let special operator
2016-11-28T19:08:23Z PuercoPop: you can probably write your own syntax highlighter using macroexpand-dammit w/o too much effort depending your use case
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2016-11-28T19:42:11Z younder: Lisp has just about the simplest syntax ever. A code walker can't be that difficult. Though care would have to be taken for special forms.
2016-11-28T19:42:39Z younder shudders at the though of correct sybtax highlighting fr loop
2016-11-28T19:42:49Z oGMo: lisp has just about the simplest _parse_ ever
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2016-11-28T19:43:30Z oGMo: that is excluding things like "require a common lisp implementation" for things like #.
2016-11-28T19:46:52Z _death: lisp has arbitrarily complex syntax
2016-11-28T19:47:45Z oGMo: (and actually it also doesn't have the simplest parse .. RPN or forth is far simpler)
2016-11-28T19:49:17Z younder: Cl has 26 special forms and Sceeme only has 6. (Things like if, tagbody ..)
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2016-11-28T19:53:04Z phoe: younder: actually
2016-11-28T19:53:07Z phoe: reader macros
2016-11-28T19:53:17Z phoe: and *anything* can be valid Lisp code
2016-11-28T19:53:54Z phoe: including the string "[lew;}{Slmfd[]D{FD00-=DS.,mDLæó–ó→³ÓÐŃÐüÜ{{(((((("
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2016-11-28T19:55:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: JSON as lisp code: http://lisper.in/reader-macros
2016-11-28T19:55:42Z fiddlerwoaroof:  
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2016-11-28T20:03:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: I wonder if anyone has implemented a reader that allows for reversible reader macros (it's probably impossible in the general case, but I'd suspect that most useful reader macros can be reversed).  If you had such a reader, you could do something like (unread (colorize (read code))).
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2016-11-28T20:05:04Z BusFactor1: unread == print?
2016-11-28T20:05:19Z isoraqathedh: Not quite.
2016-11-28T20:05:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, but it would include logic for reversing reader macros
2016-11-28T20:05:27Z isoraqathedh: Oh, okay.
2016-11-28T20:05:47Z isoraqathedh: Unread is "back up one character in stdin", and print is "put one character in stdout", right?
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2016-11-28T20:06:22Z isoraqathedh: (Or whatever in-stream and out-stream you're putting it in.)
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2016-11-28T20:06:50Z BusFactor1: that sounds tricky
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2016-11-28T20:07:12Z phoe: BusFactor1: not reallly
2016-11-28T20:07:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: Unread is probably a bad choice of name there.  I meant something that implemented heuristics to turn s-expressions back into characters pre-reader macro expansion
2016-11-28T20:07:29Z phoe: your stream object basically holds one empty slot for an "unread" char
2016-11-28T20:07:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: putting it that way, it sounds to me like it would be nearly impossible.
2016-11-28T20:08:10Z BusFactor1: you would need an arbitrary code patten matcher to reverse the reader macros
2016-11-28T20:08:13Z phoe: fiddlerwoaroof: it's fairly impossible.
2016-11-28T20:08:23Z phoe: `, for example - these are undoable.
2016-11-28T20:08:30Z phoe: And you have too many possible combinations of them.
2016-11-28T20:08:44Z phoe: Should every call to LIST be turned into backquote notation?
2016-11-28T20:09:21Z phoe: What about readtime evaluation from the #. macro?
2016-11-28T20:10:33Z phoe: Conversion from reader macros into ordinary code is a lossy one - because you lose the information about where and how the reader macros were placed.
2016-11-28T20:10:36Z BusFactor1: unless you had the original source code stream i would say it's impossible, and even then...i'd think it would be improperly difficult
2016-11-28T20:10:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, those two cases would make a general syntax highlighter difficult
2016-11-28T20:10:46Z fiddlerwoaroof:  
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2016-11-28T20:11:05Z BusFactor1: but then, what would be the point  if you have the original stream?
2016-11-28T20:11:14Z phoe: Unless your syntax highlighter can read and understand reader macros.
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2016-11-28T20:11:38Z phoe: And given that your reader macros don't have any weird side effects.
2016-11-28T20:11:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: The problem is, once you read the lisp source in, you just have a bunch of lists with very little necessary correlation to the input text
2016-11-28T20:12:06Z phoe: Because you can easily make a #? reader macro that sends the contents of your /etc/passwd to a random russian email every time it's evaluated.
2016-11-28T20:12:12Z oGMo: i think the question is _why do you want this_ and _what are you trying to accomplish_
2016-11-28T20:12:17Z phoe: ^
2016-11-28T20:12:20Z BusFactor1: you can always save the position information from the original source an attach it to the compiled lists
2016-11-28T20:12:31Z oGMo: correlation with the input text is mostly irrelevant; in a perfect world there wouldn't _be_ input text
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2016-11-28T20:13:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, the question I have is, is it possible to define a useful subset of reader macros where the programmer could specify both source->lists and lists->source ahead of time.
2016-11-28T20:13:34Z phoe: fiddlerwoaroof: it is possible, but not useful. See `,.
2016-11-28T20:13:55Z phoe: The backtick is pointless unless you want each call to LIST and/or LIST* and/or CONS map to `, notation in both ways.
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2016-11-28T20:14:08Z phoe: Because otherwise you don't have a 1-to-1 mapping.
2016-11-28T20:14:17Z phoe: I say it's impossible to do this without some sort of metadata.
2016-11-28T20:14:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: phoe: well, one useful case is turning circular lists into #1=(1 . #1#)
2016-11-28T20:14:52Z oGMo: you can't "reverse" reading, because reading can have side effects
2016-11-28T20:15:02Z phoe: fiddlerwoaroof: #= and ## are useful, yes
2016-11-28T20:15:03Z oGMo: so what are you trying to do thta you care about source input
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2016-11-28T20:15:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: Nothing in particular, I was just thinking about the discussion about codewalkers above
2016-11-28T20:16:27Z phoe: looks like some instance of a halting problem.
2016-11-28T20:16:56Z oGMo: "i want to delete the function if i delete it in the editor" -> make your editor smarter, or something
2016-11-28T20:18:14Z oGMo: you also can macroexpand into your editor so you do have _some_ form of that, but it doesn't really make sense to reverse the expansion arbitrarily does it?
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2016-11-28T20:19:52Z phoe: expansion increases entropy though
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2016-11-28T20:20:13Z phoe: it's generally not possible to reverse it.
2016-11-28T20:20:55Z BusFactor1: smells like a one way function problem
2016-11-28T20:21:28Z oGMo: no, you'd just need a reversible lisp, but that's definitely not CL ;)
2016-11-28T20:22:24Z phoe: but, uh
2016-11-28T20:22:39Z phoe: a reversible lisp, what grammar would this be?
2016-11-28T20:23:12Z phoe: a lisp in which you can arbitrarily unexpand a series of S-expressions
2016-11-28T20:23:31Z phoe: with only one possible result
2016-11-28T20:23:59Z oGMo: you "just" need to produce exclusively reversible computations ;) possibly with hardware support
2016-11-28T20:24:30Z phoe: smells like Haskell
2016-11-28T20:24:30Z BusFactor1: it would have to have no side effects
2016-11-28T20:24:44Z phoe: oh yessssss, reversible side effects
2016-11-28T20:24:54Z phoe: smells like Haskell indeed.
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2016-11-28T20:25:31Z oGMo: iirc, pure reversible computing produces no _entropy_
2016-11-28T20:25:39Z phoe: yep
2016-11-28T20:25:42Z oGMo: although it leaks a little if you want actual results
2016-11-28T20:26:07Z oGMo: but anyway anything you'd probably want to do with the source text can surely be done better on the actual lists etc
2016-11-28T20:26:24Z phoe: or some sort of metadata on the reader macros.
2016-11-28T20:26:32Z oGMo: even if you want a smarter editor, make it edit lists directly instead of text
2016-11-28T20:27:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: "can surely be done better on the actual lists" unless you're trying to highlight the source text
2016-11-28T20:27:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: Which seems to be difficult, or impossible, in CL in the general case, given reader macros
2016-11-28T20:28:14Z phoe: in the general case? yes, it's impossible
2016-11-28T20:28:49Z phoe: because your reader is Turing-complete
2016-11-28T20:28:58Z oGMo: you don't need any of this for highlighting :P
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2016-11-28T20:34:40Z H4ns: Xach: do you have a minute to look at https://github.com/hanshuebner/game-frame/blob/master/leds.lisp#L40 and tell me that this is the right way to get the rgb value of a pixel in a loaded skippy file?  it seems that skippy:pixel-ref always returns the same value (1) for all x/y combinations in my images, and i don't understand why.
2016-11-28T20:36:26Z dlowe: seems like if you wrote a reader macro, you could also write hints for the syntax highlighter to parse it as part of your workflow
2016-11-28T20:36:34Z dlowe: instead of trying to make it all happen automagically
2016-11-28T20:36:47Z Xach: H4ns: not at the moment, but i'll look in a bit
2016-11-28T20:36:57Z H4ns: Xach: thanks!
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2016-11-28T20:38:55Z oGMo: dlowe: yeah .. for reader macros i'm not sure it's even clear what highlighting (or indentation, etc) would in general _mean_
2016-11-28T20:39:20Z dlowe: well, it depends on how well structured they were
2016-11-28T20:39:26Z dlowe: I can see it easily for cl-interpol
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2016-11-28T20:39:38Z dlowe: or cl-sql's reader macros using []
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2016-11-28T20:40:23Z oGMo: sure but those are specific cases, you could have a reader macro that expands to arbitrary things in different situations
2016-11-28T20:40:58Z oGMo: but i don't think actually expanding/unexpanding would have any value for either of those
2016-11-28T20:40:58Z dlowe: you could, but when you're highlighting you don't care about that stuff
2016-11-28T20:41:06Z Xach: H4ns: Do you have an example gif i could look at?
2016-11-28T20:41:23Z H4ns: Xach: sure, wait
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2016-11-28T20:41:57Z dlowe: but that's kinda my point. Hints to the syntax highlighter would eliminate all this attempted program analysis
2016-11-28T20:42:10Z H4ns: Xach: http://netzhansa.com/loop_1.gif
2016-11-28T20:42:36Z H4ns: ah.
2016-11-28T20:42:42Z H4ns: Xach: never mind me.
2016-11-28T20:42:43Z Xach: was ist los?
2016-11-28T20:42:47Z Xach: transparent frame?
2016-11-28T20:43:02Z H4ns: Xach: no, i expected the gif to be 16x16, but it is 512x512
2016-11-28T20:43:10Z Xach: oh my
2016-11-28T20:43:14Z H4ns: Xach: which explains the behavior perfectly.
2016-11-28T20:43:21Z H4ns: Xach: sorry :)
2016-11-28T20:46:01Z Xach: phew
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2016-11-28T20:50:25Z Xach: H4ns: put up a video of the final result, please
2016-11-28T20:50:41Z H4ns: Xach: will certainly do!
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2016-11-28T21:02:31Z malice: Hi! I'm writing a function and I'm unsure whether I won't want to switch from vectors to hash-tables later. Right now I'm using vectors. I have a function transition-list that has following code: (aref arg1 arg2).
2016-11-28T21:02:56Z malice: I want to be able to modify it, so that I can do (setf (transition-list arg1 arg2) something). However, right now I'm getting an error.
2016-11-28T21:03:01Z malice: Is there a way to get around that?
2016-11-28T21:04:37Z Xach: malice: one option is to write a set function for transition-list.
2016-11-28T21:04:48Z Xach: e.g. (defun (setf transition-list) (new-value arg1 arg2) ...)
2016-11-28T21:05:23Z BusFactor1: malice: see define-setf-expander http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/m_defi_3.htm
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2016-11-28T21:09:12Z malice: Xach: thanks, I guess I'll use that.
2016-11-28T21:09:34Z malice: BusFactor1: Xach's proposal looks simpler.
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2016-11-28T21:11:04Z BusFactor1: it is
2016-11-28T21:11:45Z BusFactor1: you could also do a bit of a hack anddefine transition-list as a macro
2016-11-28T21:12:17Z malice: BusFactor1:what do you mean?
2016-11-28T21:12:22Z BusFactor1: since it's so simple
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2016-11-28T21:13:09Z BusFactor1: (defmacro transition-list (arg1 arg2) `(aref ,arg1 ,arg2)) will expand to an aref call at compile time and will work fine with setf
2016-11-28T21:13:37Z malice: Oh, it will? I always forget when this will work and when it won't. I remember having hard time trying to do some macro magic inside DO
2016-11-28T21:13:49Z malice: afair
2016-11-28T21:14:01Z malice: but that didn't work
2016-11-28T21:14:30Z BusFactor1: didn't work how?
2016-11-28T21:14:54Z BusFactor1: might be a problem with redefining the function as a macro inside the same image
2016-11-28T21:15:01Z malice: I don't remember now, but something that I passed didn't expand in time and DO or some other construct inside was complaining
2016-11-28T21:15:11Z malice: No, that wasn't the case.
2016-11-28T21:15:21Z malice: It was some time ago, you'll have to forgive me.
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2016-11-28T21:18:35Z BusFactor1: no worries :)
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2016-11-28T21:48:17Z fourier: how to declare compile-time warnings?
2016-11-28T21:48:48Z fourier: I want to issue the compilation warning every time I compile specific function
2016-11-28T21:51:22Z phoe: this would probably require a wrapper around a DEFUN
2016-11-28T21:51:27Z BusFactor1: (eval-when  (:compile-toplevel) ... might come in handy)
2016-11-28T21:51:57Z fourier: BusFactor1: yes this is something I was thinking about, to replicate c++ #pragma message
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2016-11-28T21:53:28Z dlowe: weird. I'm on a bare sbcl prompt with an error condition in the debugger, and backtrace only shows one frame
2016-11-28T21:53:44Z BusFactor1: i would think putting (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) (format ...) (defun function () ...)) might work, but i'm not positive if that will have any side effects
2016-11-28T21:53:53Z dlowe: but the prompt is showing me I'm 29 levels deep
2016-11-28T21:54:54Z BusFactor1: 29 levels would be the number of levels into the debugger you are, not the number of stack frames i would think
2016-11-28T21:55:02Z dlowe: it shows both
2016-11-28T21:55:09Z dlowe: anyway, I figured it out. I was "on" the bottom frame.
2016-11-28T21:55:15Z BusFactor1: oh
2016-11-28T21:55:25Z dlowe: frame 0 got me to the top frame and backtrace worked properly
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2016-11-28T22:01:26Z malice: How should I get command line arguments in Lisp?
2016-11-28T22:02:36Z phoe: trivial-arguments
2016-11-28T22:02:49Z phoe: wait, no
2016-11-28T22:02:50Z phoe: not this one
2016-11-28T22:02:54Z malice: :D
2016-11-28T22:03:12Z phoe: there was such a library
2016-11-28T22:03:18Z phoe: I just can't remember its name
2016-11-28T22:03:25Z rumbler31: i've used trivia args before
2016-11-28T22:03:43Z rumbler31: how complicated a string do you need to support?
2016-11-28T22:04:30Z phoe: malice: command-line-arguments
2016-11-28T22:04:34Z phoe: this one
2016-11-28T22:04:36Z phoe: it's QLable
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2016-11-28T22:06:01Z malice: rumbler31: I just want to get first argument, no flags
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2016-11-28T22:09:41Z malice: phoe:it works, thanks!
2016-11-28T22:12:45Z phoe: malice: thank Fare, not me
2016-11-28T22:13:18Z malice: wish you were here, Fare!
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2016-11-28T22:14:56Z fourier: malice: apply-argv is recommended in CL Recipes
2016-11-28T22:16:08Z phoe: ooh
2016-11-28T22:16:11Z phoe: I didn't know that one, fourier
2016-11-28T22:16:17Z malice: me neither
2016-11-28T22:16:25Z malice: but current one is ok as it is, I don't have high requirements
2016-11-28T22:16:43Z fourier: me neither until I read this chapter 18-5 in CL Recipes
2016-11-28T22:17:08Z fourier: it is also on sale now on Apres
2016-11-28T22:17:15Z fourier: so no excuses not to read it :)
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2016-11-28T22:45:57Z akkad: very good book
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2016-11-28T23:57:24Z pillton: There is https://github.com/markcox80/lisp-executable too. (Shameless self plug).
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