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2016-11-26T00:01:37Z _death: the manual's profiling section is also not up-to-date, as there's no ccl::write-elf-symbols-to-file function..
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2016-11-26T00:05:21Z Fare: an out-of-date manual? I'm shocked! shocked!
2016-11-26T00:06:21Z warweasle has had trouble with slime keeping references to objects. Especially small ones.
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2016-11-26T00:09:26Z _death: at least it's a chance to my some of my programs more portable
2016-11-26T00:09:31Z _death: *make
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2016-11-26T00:11:33Z Fare: _death, do you use uiop, for portability?
2016-11-26T00:12:00Z _death: Fare: yes
2016-11-26T00:12:47Z _death: Fare: most of what I tried so far in fact seems to work without change.. mostly some private projects where I made a choice to use sbcl-specific functionality
2016-11-26T00:13:50Z _death: it's likely I'll find some reason in the next few hours/days/weeks/... to return to sbcl..
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2016-11-26T00:15:06Z Fare: it's faster.
2016-11-26T00:15:31Z Fare: but it doesn't work as well as ccl on windows or macos
2016-11-26T00:19:55Z _death: yeah.. faster, I know.. but my latest quality-of-implementation issues seem to frustrate me more than slowness for the projects I'm currently working on
2016-11-26T00:21:05Z _death: I may try an older sbcl version, just for kicks
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2016-11-26T00:50:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: _death: I've found sbcl's developer tools to be much better than ccl's
2016-11-26T00:51:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: Things like the stepper and various features of slime's debugger seem to work a lot better under sbcl
2016-11-26T00:52:27Z _death: I can believe that.. but the issues I've encountered keep shaking my confidence in the implementation
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2016-11-26T00:53:58Z _death: the same with slime.. I'm using my own fork now and more conservative with upstream changes
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2016-11-26T01:16:09Z Fare: _death, have you tried SLY ?
2016-11-26T01:16:25Z Fare: what kind of sbcl issues have you found?
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2016-11-26T01:24:25Z akkad: do restarts work properly on sbcl?
2016-11-26T01:24:30Z _death: Fare: I've not tried sly.. aside from today's issue, there's http://paste.lisp.org/display/330728 and an issue that lead to https://github.com/death/sbcl/commit/4341538e3e4f62ae111fee2e657d5969322f6b02 , for which I didn't get feedback
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2016-11-26T01:31:11Z _death: Fare: there was another one related to pcl and source locations, which got an immediate and unhelpful "don't assume it's sbcl" response
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2016-11-26T01:39:25Z |3b|: what's the bug in that last paste? that circularity detection doesn't work for (format NIL ...) called directly?
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2016-11-26T01:39:58Z |3b|: actually, i guess also that it doesn't restart when called indirectly
2016-11-26T01:40:33Z |3b|: though not sure how the stuff about "user-defined print-object methods" in *print-circle* spec applies to condition reports
2016-11-26T01:41:07Z |3b|: ah, it is specified to use print-object, so applies
2016-11-26T01:41:27Z Fare: problem with sbcl is there is no one paying for support, only random hackers plus a few working for companies with their own agenda but not interested in fixing other people's issues.
2016-11-26T01:42:08Z _death: 3b: it was discussed at some length here.. what was that site with #lisp logs
2016-11-26T01:44:14Z _death: Fare: yeah
2016-11-26T01:44:42Z |3b| wishes things would give a date instead "weeks and days" or whatever :/
2016-11-26T01:45:12Z _death: 3b: http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/lisp-2016-11.txt search ~A~A
2016-11-26T01:46:51Z |3b|: wasn't that about ccl though?
2016-11-26T01:47:14Z |3b|: your example is in a print-object method where spec seems pretty clear it should
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2016-11-26T01:49:24Z |3b|: (and sbcl doesn't do that outside print-object)
2016-11-26T01:50:11Z _death: 3b: pierpa noted that ccl has that behavior in some other scenarios.. but there are several issues in my sbcl test case as the conversation indicates.. and it doesn't really depend on *print-circle* (and it shouldn't, as also argued in the log)
2016-11-26T01:50:22Z |3b|: sbcl's behavior inside print-object does seem buggy though, since it doesn't restart circularity detection when printing to another stream
2016-11-26T01:50:31Z |3b|: (or loses it entirely in some cases)
2016-11-26T01:50:56Z _death: 3b: indeed.. the test case shows more than one issue
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2016-11-26T01:52:03Z |3b|: can you point to the others in the conversation?
2016-11-26T01:55:51Z _death: the test case makes it clear.. why does (print-twice nil) differ from the inline (format nil ...)
2016-11-26T02:01:41Z |3b|: presumably a bug in some compiler macro or similar for format somehow breaks circularity detection
2016-11-26T02:01:58Z |3b|: and it doesn't make it clear, since it adds a bunch of other noise :)
2016-11-26T02:02:18Z |3b|: so the specific bug is that format nil behaves differently from format some-variable in that case?
2016-11-26T02:03:03Z _death: 3b: I'm not sure what the bugs are, as I didn't investigate further
2016-11-26T02:03:17Z |3b|: i mean that's what you are specifically talking about in that paste
2016-11-26T02:03:29Z |3b| just wants to make sure the bug you see is one of the ones i see
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2016-11-26T02:03:52Z |3b| agrees that them differing sounds like a bug
2016-11-26T02:04:09Z |3b| also things that they should have printed #1=foo #1# instead of #1# #1#
2016-11-26T02:04:12Z |3b|: *thinks
2016-11-26T02:04:27Z _death: the first issue is that "~A~A" would print the second object taking into account the first.. the second is that what is supposed to be functionality equivalent code is not
2016-11-26T02:04:51Z |3b|: ok, so both of the ones i see? anything else?
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2016-11-26T02:05:57Z _death: nope.. other than the issue of ccl/allegro having weird behaviors there as well, and gbyers actually supporting current ccl behavior :d
2016-11-26T02:06:19Z |3b|: yeah, outside print-object i'm less sure what it should do :)
2016-11-26T02:06:51Z |3b|: also https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/1644944 for the constant thing earlier if you want to track it
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2016-11-26T02:08:08Z _death: I'd report on #sbcl, but the last time I tried didn't work well
2016-11-26T02:10:17Z |3b|: well, works better if you have time to reduce the test case, and preferably run it without things like slime
2016-11-26T02:10:32Z _death: from scymtym's remark it looks like the constant redefinition should remove that entry from the cache
2016-11-26T02:10:35Z |3b|: (or CL libraries that might be having an effect)
2016-11-26T02:12:02Z _death: 3b: hopefully.. it just seemed like "meh, sbcl is perfect and you're clueless".. similar to the "it's undefined behavior" arguments I got with this issue here :x
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2016-11-26T02:13:03Z |3b| missed the redefinition of the function on first read, so had that reaction as well :/
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2016-11-26T02:14:27Z |3b|: and i think it is more likely "i don't see the problem from what you said (or don't see any evidence it is am sbcl problem), and don't have time to make sure it is actually an sbcl problem" than "sbcl is perfect"
2016-11-26T02:15:06Z _death: in fact CL programmers rely on behavior that's undefined by the standard all the time.. mostly it's somewhat sane behavior so everything's good
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2016-11-26T02:16:46Z |3b|: right, after seeing the function redefinition after constant redefinition i agree it could be improved, as did scymtym on #sbcl (possibly helped by focusing on that in the description rather than just "sbcl is broken")
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2016-11-26T02:19:05Z |3b|: https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/309090 seems to be one of the print-circle bugs
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2016-11-26T02:23:53Z _death: in other news, I ordered Common Lisp Recipes today.. guess it will arrive in a month or so hehe
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2016-11-26T02:26:33Z drmeister: The object retention I was seeing turned out to be a bug in my code.
2016-11-26T02:27:16Z drmeister: In the old days (a year ago or so) I was using C++ std::string to represent strings and string-output-stream.
2016-11-26T02:27:42Z drmeister: std::string needs to have its destructor called when it is no longer needed because C++.
2016-11-26T02:28:04Z drmeister: So I was registering finalizers for base-string and string-output-stream.
2016-11-26T02:28:44Z drmeister: More recently I implemented my own string code and it works with the GC's (boehm and mps) and doesn't need finalization.
2016-11-26T02:28:58Z drmeister: But I forgot to turn off finalization for string-output-stream.
2016-11-26T02:29:02Z drmeister: That was bad.
2016-11-26T02:29:32Z drmeister: Because with the mps GC I hadn't implemented an automatic finalization scheme yet.
2016-11-26T02:30:01Z drmeister: So the finalization messages accumulated, the string-output-stream's accumulated and everything got really, really sloooow.
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2016-11-26T02:31:27Z _death: GC.. not really defined the the standard :)
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2016-11-26T02:42:52Z Fare: drmeister, congrats for finding the bug
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2016-11-26T03:44:01Z Fare: the answer is that it probably never was called at compile-toplevel, but that used not to matter;
2016-11-26T03:44:14Z Fare: also it isn't triggered automatically by subtypep.
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2016-11-26T03:49:27Z _death: using safety 2 in two salza2 functions has ccl (which generates slow typechecks with speed/safety 3) go from 3 seconds to save a png to 175ms
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2016-11-26T04:13:59Z Fare: yeah, at ITA we had bad experience with safety 3 on CCL, IIRC
2016-11-26T04:14:17Z Fare: performance-wise
2016-11-26T04:14:30Z Fare: our build scripts were published in the QUUX repository
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2016-11-26T04:15:30Z _death: nice.. I looked at the repo some time ago
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2016-11-26T04:16:58Z Fare: not that much that is salvageable, I fear.
2016-11-26T04:17:13Z Fare: a few bits here and there, but no one seems to care anyway
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2016-11-26T04:21:19Z _death: my main interest was style/implementation techniques anyway ;)
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2016-11-26T04:37:41Z Fare: writing code that's portable to 15 implementations is a PITA
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2016-11-26T04:45:54Z vtomole: Fare: The downsides of fragmentation :(
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2016-11-26T04:48:48Z Fare issues fixes for Allegro and ECL, and now goes to bed.
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2016-11-26T04:55:26Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2016-11-26T04:56:32Z drmeister: Hi beach
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2016-11-26T06:02:39Z akkad: Fare how do you like allegro?
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2016-11-26T11:15:40Z django_: hey
2016-11-26T11:16:23Z django_: anyone awake :D
2016-11-26T11:18:23Z beach: Hello.  Sure, a few.
2016-11-26T11:18:32Z django_: where can i paste some lisp code
2016-11-26T11:18:46Z beach: minion: Please tell django_ about lisppaste.
2016-11-26T11:18:47Z minion: django_: have a look at lisppaste: lisppaste is an IRC bot that runs under the nickname "lisppaste" and can be used (only for the #lisp IRC channel!) at http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp - or http://paste.lisp.org/ for other destinations
2016-11-26T11:19:33Z beach: Actually, because of spam, the link no longer appears in the channel automatically.  You need to give us the link yourself.
2016-11-26T11:19:43Z django_: ok so for this http://paste.lisp.org/display/332500
2016-11-26T11:19:56Z django_: i dont get why i have to wait for the loop-print to return to see the output
2016-11-26T11:20:15Z django_: i want to call print-exp everytime user inputs y
2016-11-26T11:20:39Z beach: clhs finish-output
2016-11-26T11:20:40Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_finish.htm
2016-11-26T11:20:48Z beach: It is possible your output is buffered.
2016-11-26T11:21:06Z beach: You need to work on your spacing and your indentation.
2016-11-26T11:21:23Z beach: One space before the first `(' in a group.
2016-11-26T11:21:49Z beach: No space after '(' or before ')'.
2016-11-26T11:22:05Z django_: ah
2016-11-26T11:22:07Z django_: bad habit from python
2016-11-26T11:22:10Z beach: Indentation is 2 characters.
2016-11-26T11:22:16Z beach: Not 4.
2016-11-26T11:22:32Z beach: (if...) should align under (print-exp)
2016-11-26T11:22:59Z beach: You need to use an editor that indents properly for you.
2016-11-26T11:23:16Z beach: Otherwise you put a burden on the (human) reader of your code.
2016-11-26T11:23:46Z beach: As soon as I see that your code has been manually indented, I can no longer trust its structure, so you force me to count parentheses.
2016-11-26T11:24:41Z beach: Also, for a conditional without a `then' or without an `else' part, use WHEN or UNLESS.
2016-11-26T11:24:44Z beach: clhs when
2016-11-26T11:24:44Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_when_.htm
2016-11-26T11:24:48Z beach: clhs unless
2016-11-26T11:24:48Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_when_.htm
2016-11-26T11:24:56Z beach: Oh, same page.  Duh!
2016-11-26T11:26:51Z django_: beach, http://paste.lisp.org/display/332500#2
2016-11-26T11:27:03Z varjag: unless is just a when in denial
2016-11-26T11:27:54Z beach: django_: One space before the first '(' in a group, so (loop (print...
2016-11-26T11:28:00Z django_: oh
2016-11-26T11:28:27Z beach: django_: And you are still manually indenting because the (if is not aligned under the (print-exp).
2016-11-26T11:28:46Z django_: beach, im using sublime text
2016-11-26T11:28:48Z django_: it indents for me
2016-11-26T11:28:55Z beach: Apparently not.
2016-11-26T11:29:06Z beach: django_: One blank before the parameter list in a function because it starts with '('.
2016-11-26T11:29:10Z django_: you said 2 spaces right?
2016-11-26T11:29:33Z django_: where should the if be aligned?
2016-11-26T11:29:41Z beach: One space before '('.  Two spaces indentation.  But the forms in the body of a function, or a loop should be aligned.
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2016-11-26T11:31:04Z beach: django_: If your editor doesn't understand how to indent Common Lisp code, you need to switch to one that does.
2016-11-26T11:31:55Z beach: django_: I mean, you can do what you want of course.  But as I said above, it is impolite (you put a huge burden or the (human) reader of your code) to submit code that has incorrect indentation.
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2016-11-26T11:35:38Z django_: gotcha thank you beach
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2016-11-26T11:41:50Z beach: django_: Sure.  Did the FINISH-OUTPUT help?
2016-11-26T11:42:01Z django_: im still trying to figure out indenting haha
2016-11-26T11:42:26Z beach: Ah, OK.
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2016-11-26T11:45:15Z django_: beach, im guessing you use emacs
2016-11-26T11:45:17Z beach: If your editor doesn't "know" Common Lisp, it can't really be done, because indentation is different for special operators, and for macros according to the number and role of arguments.
2016-11-26T11:45:52Z beach: django_: Yes.  I have been using Emacs for the past 35 years.
2016-11-26T11:46:00Z White_Flame: emacs is the primary lisp dev environment
2016-11-26T11:46:21Z beach: First Multics Emacs, then Gosling Emacs, then GNU Emacs.
2016-11-26T11:46:22Z django_: downloaded this: https://github.com/odyssomay/sublime-lispindent
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2016-11-26T12:02:22Z django_: beach, http://paste.lisp.org/display/332500#3
2016-11-26T12:02:26Z django_: it indents like that
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2016-11-26T12:05:37Z White_Flame: you somehow added extra parens around your IF clause
2016-11-26T12:06:04Z White_Flame: and lost your inner parens around NOT's parameter
2016-11-26T12:08:45Z django_: yeah so i gotta just type if and hit enter
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2016-11-26T12:10:09Z White_Flame: also, (loop do (...) while (...)) would be a bit more idiomatic
2016-11-26T12:10:53Z shka: django_: well, perhaps you can try emacs with slime?
2016-11-26T12:11:07Z shka: it is certainly different, but has plenty to offer
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2016-11-26T12:14:48Z django_: i tried but.....just not for me
2016-11-26T12:15:34Z White_Flame: you're going to have continual problems dealing with things others assume simple, as well as problems getting help if you're not using the same environment
2016-11-26T12:16:22Z White_Flame: SLIME actively connects to your running Lisp image, and knows the runtime state of definitions, integrates with the debugger, lets you jump to source of defitions for symbols (which is untractable for standalone editors), etc
2016-11-26T12:16:53Z django_: yeah but i cant scroll down
2016-11-26T12:16:57Z django_: use ctrl f
2016-11-26T12:16:58Z django_: lol
2016-11-26T12:17:01Z White_Flame: I'm no fan of emacs, but as a Lisper, it's basically required for productivity.  I think SLIME + vi is feasible as well
2016-11-26T12:17:20Z White_Flame: huh?  mouse scroll wheel or cursor/page down has never been an issue for me
2016-11-26T12:17:40Z django_: can i use my laptop mouse (two fingers to go up/down)
2016-11-26T12:17:53Z White_Flame: if it sends scroll events, sure
2016-11-26T12:19:01Z django_: White_Flame, so what do you use lisp for?
2016-11-26T12:19:09Z White_Flame: programming :-P
2016-11-26T12:19:21Z White_Flame: what do you use any language for?
2016-11-26T12:19:26Z django_: hah like what?
2016-11-26T12:19:51Z White_Flame: automation, AI, website back-ends, client projects...
2016-11-26T12:20:02Z django_: build stuff
2016-11-26T12:20:12Z django_: what are you currently working on? do you have any focus?
2016-11-26T12:20:16Z TMA: switching to <editor> because of <feature> entails losing the ability to actually edit text at least for several days
2016-11-26T12:20:32Z White_Flame: TMA: It does.  It's a long term investment
2016-11-26T12:20:59Z django_: wow
2016-11-26T12:21:10Z django_: White_Flame: so are there any projects you chose lisp over other languages
2016-11-26T12:21:16Z White_Flame: django_: I have a company, and we primarily use common lisp to develop, unless client contracts want specific code modules for their project language
2016-11-26T12:21:41Z django_: dope
2016-11-26T12:21:41Z django_: where are you from?
2016-11-26T12:21:47Z White_Flame: USA
2016-11-26T12:22:12Z django_: same, which state?
2016-11-26T12:22:18Z White_Flame: .az
2016-11-26T12:22:30Z django_: colorado?
2016-11-26T12:22:38Z White_Flame: ...
2016-11-26T12:23:12Z TMA: azerbaijan :)
2016-11-26T12:23:49Z White_Flame: hah, I thought people only got confused over Georgia ;)
2016-11-26T12:24:17Z TMA: .az is a TLD for Azerbaijan
2016-11-26T12:25:11Z White_Flame: .az.gov then :)
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2016-11-26T12:27:02Z TMA: I thought that software companies are from california or masachusetts
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2016-11-26T12:27:38Z TMA: I would not expect arizona
2016-11-26T12:28:38Z White_Flame: why?
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2016-11-26T12:31:34Z TMA: White_Flame: dunno. somehow arizona is connected to the wild west rural image in my mind.
2016-11-26T12:32:20Z White_Flame: Intel, Lockheed Martin, and lots of companies have strong presence here
2016-11-26T12:32:34Z White_Flame: I think you need to update your view of the world :-P
2016-11-26T12:38:29Z TMA: yeah, it is certainly a tad dated. but what's a hundred years between friends? :)
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2016-11-26T12:55:24Z phoe: looks like #unitedstatesoflisp
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2016-11-26T20:12:23Z maarhart: hi, I'm reading "land of lisp" and don't understand why I can calculate the length of a list with (defun my-length (list) (if list (1+ (my-length (cdr list))) 0)). If anyone can explain step by step what is being done, I would be very grateful. I understand e.g. cdr, but I don't get how does it iterates and finds how many symbols are there in list. Thanks! I'll read the answer later, so don't expect me to reply anytime soon.
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2016-11-26T20:14:54Z aplan: How do i 'rethrow' an exception in common lisp?
2016-11-26T20:15:42Z aplan: The context is database access.  If there is an error i want to rollback and throw the exception again
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2016-11-26T20:17:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: aplan: one way is to use handler-bind and not invoke a restart
2016-11-26T20:17:29Z Xach: aplan: ERROR will signal the condition object.
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2016-11-26T20:19:44Z phoe: maarhart: wellll
2016-11-26T20:19:50Z phoe: give me a few whiles, I'll prepare some food
2016-11-26T20:19:54Z phoe: and I'll answer your question.
2016-11-26T20:20:11Z Xach: maarhart: it is not iterating, it is recursing.
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2016-11-26T20:20:59Z aplan: thanks for the hints
2016-11-26T20:21:13Z phoe: until then, you can do the following:
2016-11-26T20:21:19Z phoe: (DEFUN MY-LENGTH ...)
2016-11-26T20:21:35Z phoe: (TRACE MY-LENGTH)
2016-11-26T20:21:52Z phoe: (MY-LENGTH '(A B C 1 2 3 X Y))
2016-11-26T20:21:58Z phoe: And see what the implementation tells you.
2016-11-26T20:22:53Z phoe: where you replace ... with what you posted above.
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2016-11-26T20:35:08Z White_Flame: maarhart: the length of a list is 1+ the length of the CDR of the list.  Recurse until you hit the end (which is length 0)
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2016-11-26T20:40:21Z phoe: White_Flame: from what I see, he doesn't understand recursion just yet
2016-11-26T20:40:36Z phoe: so he might want to understand recursion first
2016-11-26T20:40:40Z phoe: before he can understand recursion
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