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2016-11-20T04:03:41Z Fare: ok, my job debugging asdf on windows is done.
2016-11-20T04:03:52Z Fare: Rebooting back home to Linux
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2016-11-20T06:22:19Z krwq: how can you create a symbol with a name like #:XXXX? (let ((#:XXXX)) ...) is not working if wrapped with || it's not quite working as well - what i'm playing with right now is (gensym) - it returns consecutive symbols with names like #:G747 i'm wondering if it will detect the collision
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2016-11-20T06:25:36Z |3b|: GENSYM always makes a new symbol
2016-11-20T06:26:04Z krwq: |3b|: i believe you but I'd like to test it
2016-11-20T06:26:07Z |3b|: you can have distinct symbols with the same name, and GENSYM makes no effort to avoid creating multiple symbols with same name, other than using an automatically incrementing counter
2016-11-20T06:26:17Z |3b|: that is the specification of GENSYM :)
2016-11-20T06:26:20Z |3b|: clhs gensym
2016-11-20T06:26:20Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_gensym.htm
2016-11-20T06:26:41Z |3b|: "new-symbol---a fresh, uninterned symbol"
2016-11-20T06:27:10Z |3b|: actually, i guess "Creates and returns a fresh, uninterned symbol,..." is the better part to quote
2016-11-20T06:27:11Z krwq: but how can you define a symbol with a name similar to gensym?
2016-11-20T06:27:21Z |3b|: any way you want to
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2016-11-20T06:27:50Z krwq: i'm just wondering if it will collide or not and want to learn new way to define variable name :P
2016-11-20T06:28:03Z |3b|: note that in your example the name of #:XXXX is "XXXX", so just reading xxxx creats a symbol with a /name/ like the gensym
2016-11-20T06:28:49Z krwq: |3b|: not sure if i understand - how do you do that with let?
2016-11-20T06:29:04Z |3b|: let has nothing to do with creating symbols
2016-11-20T06:29:15Z |3b|: let creates variables /named/ by already existing symbols
2016-11-20T06:29:52Z |3b|: lets go back a bit
2016-11-20T06:30:15Z krwq: yes but in a context of (let ((some-magic-way-to-define-this 444)) (gensym)) it is not supposed to ever return some-magic-way-to-define-this
2016-11-20T06:30:17Z |3b|: the syntax #:foo is the reader syntax for an "uninterned symbol" named "FOO"
2016-11-20T06:30:41Z |3b|: "uninterned" means it is not accessible in any package, so will not be returned by INTERN
2016-11-20T06:31:16Z |3b|: when the CODE is read, every time the reader sees #: it will create a new symbol, regardless of the characters after the #:
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2016-11-20T06:31:36Z |3b|: so (eq '#:foo '#:foo) -> nil
2016-11-20T06:32:35Z krwq: so can you do something like (let ((#:foo 5)))?
2016-11-20T06:32:39Z |3b|: the reader tries to INTERN symbols into the current package, and since #:foo is not accessible in any package, it won't be found when it looks up "FOO" either
2016-11-20T06:32:41Z |3b|: sure
2016-11-20T06:33:09Z |3b|: but there isn't anything you can put in the body of that LET to access that variable (as written)
2016-11-20T06:33:58Z |3b|: (let ((#:foo 5)) #:foo) -> undefined variable error, since the 2 #:foo are different symbols, and the variable is named by the first symbol
2016-11-20T06:34:15Z krwq: can you do something lime (let* ((name #:newsym) ((something name) 5) ...)?
2016-11-20T06:34:17Z |3b|: you would have to store the symbol and arrange for that exact symbol to be put in the body to access the variable
2016-11-20T06:34:50Z |3b|: for example (let ((#1=#:foo 5)) #1#) => 5
2016-11-20T06:35:05Z krwq: wait - what's #1=#?
2016-11-20T06:35:34Z |3b|: #1= and #1# is a reader macro that stores a form (including a symbol) and lets you use it again later in the same top-level form
2016-11-20T06:35:51Z krwq: is it gonna be evaled once?
2016-11-20T06:35:58Z krwq: wait
2016-11-20T06:36:02Z krwq: read
2016-11-20T06:36:06Z |3b|: so  #1= stores the #:foo, and #1# uses that stored value
2016-11-20T06:36:28Z krwq: can i do #anything=#:foo?
2016-11-20T06:36:30Z krwq: or just numbers
2016-11-20T06:36:40Z |3b|: more precisely, #1= stores the result of READing the #:foo, so the uninterned symbol named "FOO"
2016-11-20T06:36:45Z |3b|: just numbers i think
2016-11-20T06:37:04Z |3b|: clhs #=
2016-11-20T06:37:06Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dho.htm
2016-11-20T06:37:16Z |3b|: 'unsigned decimal integer'
2016-11-20T06:38:03Z |3b|: the other common way uninterned symbols get into code is by macros, which do things like (let ((x (gensym))) `(let ((,x 5)) ,x))
2016-11-20T06:38:09Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2016-11-20T06:38:13Z krwq: ok, so when you do that #1=# what else happens with whatever comes next? i can't (let ((:foo 5))...)
2016-11-20T06:38:42Z krwq: good morning beach
2016-11-20T06:38:52Z |3b|: which evaluates to the same thing as the reader returns from the #1= version
2016-11-20T06:39:46Z |3b|: #1= and #: are separate parts, the 2nd # is not part of the #1=, it is part of the #:foo
2016-11-20T06:39:58Z krwq: so when i do #1=# i can use whatever as a symbol name?
2016-11-20T06:40:27Z |3b|: no, when you do #1= you can use anything you want after it, including uninterned symbols like #:foo
2016-11-20T06:41:00Z krwq: this is interesting
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2016-11-20T06:41:13Z krwq: so is it safe to use that in macros instead of gensym?
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2016-11-20T06:41:28Z beach: krwq: Unless you have nested macros.
2016-11-20T06:41:29Z |3b|: for example in the topic, #1=(programmable . #1#) stores the list (progammable . #1#), and #1# puts that same list in the cdr of itself
2016-11-20T06:42:04Z krwq: beach: what do you mean by nested macros?
2016-11-20T06:42:08Z |3b|: sort of, since it creates a single symbol at READ time, nested calls to that macro could confuse eachother
2016-11-20T06:42:16Z beach: (macro1 (macro1 234))
2016-11-20T06:42:18Z krwq: |3b|: so when i print this it will infinitely print?
2016-11-20T06:42:41Z |3b|: the list version? depending on your printer settings, yes
2016-11-20T06:42:44Z beach: krwq: Then you will have the same symbol several times.  You typically don't want that, hence gensym.
2016-11-20T06:42:49Z krwq: |3b|: im having trouble getting my head around this
2016-11-20T06:43:01Z |3b|: if you set *print-circle* to t, it will print it with #1= and #1# to avoid infinite loop
2016-11-20T06:43:18Z |3b|: which part?
2016-11-20T06:43:45Z krwq: the uninterned symbol i think
2016-11-20T06:43:54Z krwq: and the #1= is blowing my mind
2016-11-20T06:44:00Z |3b|: (setting *print-circle* to t is a good idea when playing with infinite lists)
2016-11-20T06:44:43Z krwq: so what's the scope of #1=?
2016-11-20T06:44:56Z |3b|: were you the one i was talking about reader and evaluation with the other day?
2016-11-20T06:45:02Z |3b|: scope is a call to READ, more or less
2016-11-20T06:45:17Z |3b|: and loading/compiling a file, READs 1 form at a time
2016-11-20T06:45:21Z krwq: yes, im the one :P
2016-11-20T06:45:29Z krwq: i think
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2016-11-20T06:45:50Z |3b|: ok, this is one of those places where understanding the distinction between READ and EVALuation helps :)
2016-11-20T06:46:29Z |3b|: evaluation doesn't care about any properties of the symbols like its name or what packages it is or isn't in
2016-11-20T06:46:43Z |3b|: all it cares is whether it names a variable, function, etc
2016-11-20T06:47:25Z krwq: but when you do let how does it know what to do with that
2016-11-20T06:47:46Z krwq: so if you do (gensym) i can technically still create a collision can't i?
2016-11-20T06:47:59Z |3b|: if you store it
2016-11-20T06:48:27Z |3b|: usually you call gensym every time you expand the macro, so every time the macro is used it has a different symbol
2016-11-20T06:49:09Z krwq: i can technically predict the next name
2016-11-20T06:49:16Z |3b|: if you wrote a macro that called gensym then used the result to build another macro containing that symbol, that 2nd macro could have the same problem as if you built it by hand with #1= and #:
2016-11-20T06:49:33Z |3b|: sure, but like i said, the evaluator doesn't care about the name
2016-11-20T06:49:59Z |3b|: if the it isn't the same symbol object, it is completely different as far as the evaluator is concerned
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2016-11-20T06:50:55Z beach: krwq: It doesn't matter if you can predict the next name.  Creating a symbol with your predicted name will still be a different one.  It is possible to have any number of symbols with the same name.
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2016-11-20T06:50:57Z |3b|: you could write your entire program using only symbols named "FOO" (and some CL symbols and keywordsi guess), as long as they were different symbols where you wanted different variables or functions or whatever
2016-11-20T06:51:22Z |3b|: they could be foo from different packages, or different uninterned FOOs
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2016-11-20T06:51:41Z krwq: beach, |3b| i think i need to play around with this or see some tricky examples - is PCL covering that?
2016-11-20T06:52:09Z |3b| doesn't remember if PCL went into much detail about the reader
2016-11-20T06:53:18Z |3b|: and in case it wasn't clear, normal macros happen after READing, and there is no further READing of their expansion, it is just evaluated directly
2016-11-20T06:53:24Z beach: krwq: I also don't remember.
2016-11-20T06:53:46Z beach: krwq: Start with (eq '#:hello '#:hello) and make sure you understand the result.
2016-11-20T06:54:04Z |3b|: and contrast with (eq 'hello 'hello)
2016-11-20T06:54:40Z krwq: ok, i'll play around with this - thank you guys :)
2016-11-20T06:55:50Z beach: krwq: It is not that hard.  You just need to build the correct mental model.
2016-11-20T06:57:43Z krwq: beach: i'm having trouble seeing how can you create a symbol which name is the same as other symbol and it's a different thing - i guess i just need to accept it
2016-11-20T06:58:49Z krwq: i.e. can you create any arbitrary name like that or only with #:
2016-11-20T06:58:59Z beach: krwq: I see.  A symbol is just a chunk of memory that happens to have a name.  So creating two symbols with the same name is like calling malloc() twice in C and filling a field with the same string.
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2016-11-20T06:59:40Z krwq: what's not clear to me i.e. when i type in REPL: '#:foo it gives me back #:FOO - is #: part of the name or just display
2016-11-20T06:59:56Z beach: The name is FOO.
2016-11-20T07:00:04Z beach: #: means uninterned symbol.
2016-11-20T07:00:21Z krwq: so why don't get FOO back from repl
2016-11-20T07:00:25Z beach: clhs make-symbol
2016-11-20T07:00:25Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_sym.htm
2016-11-20T07:00:49Z beach: krwq: That is just the way PRINT happens to display an uninterned symbol.
2016-11-20T07:00:58Z |3b|: same way you don't get back foo when you type in "foo" in repl
2016-11-20T07:01:24Z krwq: ok, now i think the picture is clearer
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2016-11-20T07:01:28Z beach: krwq: Check out MAKE-SYMBOL.
2016-11-20T07:01:56Z |3b|: similarly it prints :foo as :FOO and some-other-package::foo as some-other-package::foo
2016-11-20T07:02:20Z krwq: double colon?
2016-11-20T07:02:36Z |3b|: :: means "not exported from a package"
2016-11-20T07:03:08Z beach: krwq: When the reader sees syntax such as #:hello, it essentially calls MAKE-SYMBOL with the string "HELLO" and it does that each time it sees #:hello.
2016-11-20T07:03:10Z |3b|: if foo is exported from some-other-package, you could type some-other-package:foo, and either one would probably print as some-other-package:foo
2016-11-20T07:03:12Z krwq: wait - so you can access not exported symbols without in-package?
2016-11-20T07:03:45Z beach: Luckily yes.  Otherwise writing a debugger would be impossible.
2016-11-20T07:03:47Z |3b|: right, you can also access them by importing them into a package and working in that package
2016-11-20T07:04:04Z krwq: TIL
2016-11-20T07:04:27Z krwq: i kept doing in-package when doing some manual testing
2016-11-20T07:04:54Z |3b| just tests in the file where i'm defining things (which has in-package)
2016-11-20T07:05:31Z |3b|: the various keys for evaluating the definitions work just as well for evaluating the tests :)
2016-11-20T07:05:52Z krwq: im gonna get back to reading PCL :) thanks again guys!
2016-11-20T07:06:07Z beach: Good luck.
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2016-11-20T08:47:29Z axion: Is it undefined what will happen with a docstring in a defmethod?
2016-11-20T08:48:26Z Shinmera: axion: CLHS is quite clear about it.
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2016-11-20T08:52:47Z beach: Indeed: "Documentation is attached as a documentation string to the method object."
2016-11-20T08:54:01Z axion: Thanks, missed that
2016-11-20T08:54:12Z Shinmera: Is there a good reason why a local-time:timestamp does not save the timezone it was parsed from?
2016-11-20T08:55:19Z Shinmera: Because that prevents the timestamp from being printed identically to how it was defined, and also makes my task quite a bit of a pain more than it needs to be.
2016-11-20T08:57:34Z Shinmera: Not to mention that it leads to surprising things such as (local-time:timestamp-hour @2016-01-01T10:00:00Z) reporting something else depending on where you are.
2016-11-20T08:57:44Z Shinmera: *something other than 10
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2016-11-20T09:42:59Z shrdlu68: Just discovered ironclad has no support for diffie-hellman :(
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2016-11-20T09:53:57Z beach: shrdlu68: Sounds like you got yourself a project.
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2016-11-20T09:54:55Z shrdlu68: beach: I already have a project, a CL TLS implementation. But I'll see what I can do...
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2016-11-20T09:56:35Z shrdlu68: There's a CL implementation of Diffie-Hellman, a general-purpose CL crypto lib similar to ironclad called crypticl: https://www.common-lisp.net/project/crypticl/crypticl.pdf
2016-11-20T09:57:07Z shrdlu68: Unfortunately it seems to be an abandoned project and I can't find a repo for it.
2016-11-20T10:02:53Z beach: http://www.filewatcher.com/b/ftp/ftp.informatimago.com/pub/lisp-mirrors/common-lisp.net/project/crypticl/cvsroot/crypticl/src-0.html
2016-11-20T10:02:55Z beach: Maybe?
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2016-11-20T10:08:27Z shrdlu68: beaky: Yes! Seems to have a liberal license too.
2016-11-20T10:09:52Z shrdlu68: beaky: Oops, meant beach.
2016-11-20T10:10:53Z phoe: Are we porting DHKE to ironclad now?
2016-11-20T10:11:49Z shrdlu68: phoe: Would you like that?
2016-11-20T10:12:27Z phoe: shrdlu68: sounds like a sane move to me - concentrating all of our Lisp crypto in ironclad.
2016-11-20T10:12:37Z shrdlu68: Exactly.
2016-11-20T10:12:59Z phoe: Does crypticl have any unit tests for its DHKE implementation though?
2016-11-20T10:13:04Z phoe: Any tests at all?
2016-11-20T10:14:17Z shrdlu68: phoe: I see a test.lisp file. Let me probe it.
2016-11-20T10:15:54Z shrdlu68: There's tests for the hash functions, DSA and RSA but I don't see one for DH.
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2016-11-20T10:17:29Z shrdlu68: This source seems to be patch files.
2016-11-20T10:18:00Z phoe: They are patch files, yep.
2016-11-20T10:18:20Z phoe: So it should be possible to reconstruct a whole git repo from them if we're interested in its history.
2016-11-20T10:18:28Z phoe: Or just its latest branch.
2016-11-20T10:18:44Z phoe: s/branch/commit/
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2016-11-20T10:20:09Z shrdlu68: But where is the rest of it?
2016-11-20T10:20:59Z phoe: ftp://ftp.informatimago.com/pub/lisp-mirrors/common-lisp.net/project/crypticl/cvsroot/crypticl/src/diffie-hellman.lisp%2Cv
2016-11-20T10:21:02Z phoe: actually
2016-11-20T10:21:05Z phoe: it looks like there's some sort of a test thre
2016-11-20T10:21:06Z phoe: there
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2016-11-20T10:24:04Z shrdlu68: Yeah, test-dh
2016-11-20T10:24:07Z phoe: Rest? I think it's all of it.
2016-11-20T10:24:17Z phoe: I think you should be able to pop that dir into CVS and be able to checkout.
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2016-11-20T10:27:08Z shrdlu68: phoe: Are you familiar with ironclad internals?
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2016-11-20T10:30:26Z phoe: shrdlu68: nope.
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2016-11-20T10:34:11Z phoe: I just peeked into it though and ironclad looks like well-structured, LET* heavy code.
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2016-11-20T10:35:55Z phoe: If you ever decide to try and add DH to ironclad, I'll owe you a pint of your favorite drink.
2016-11-20T10:36:11Z phoe: Because that's what I will need to use sooner or later within the crypto of the application I'll be writing.
2016-11-20T10:37:34Z shrdlu68: Me too.
2016-11-20T10:37:46Z shrdlu68: elliptic-curve dh too.
2016-11-20T10:38:15Z phoe: and a bit of googling reveals http://leetayres.com/lisp-crypto.html
2016-11-20T10:38:27Z phoe: but I don't know how usable this is, and it has no tests.
2016-11-20T10:40:00Z shrdlu68: Yeah I saw that too. The "makes some unsafe assumptions" caveat is scary too.
2016-11-20T10:41:04Z phoe: In case of crypto, it's fairly scary, yeah.
2016-11-20T10:43:11Z phoe: shrdlu68: https://github.com/fjames86/frpc/blob/master/auth/des/des.lisp
2016-11-20T10:43:16Z phoe: Is this of any help?
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2016-11-20T10:52:46Z shrdlu68: Yes. Wow so many implementations all over the place.
2016-11-20T10:53:57Z shrdlu68: Okay, let me get to work porting it.
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2016-11-20T12:13:01Z Shinmera: Might be saner to make a CL+SSL replacement based on bearssl than trying to make a secure TLS implementation in pure lisp.
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2016-11-20T12:22:59Z shrdlu68: Shinmera: I started the project to write a TLS fuzzer, so I needed to write a TLS implementation from scratch anyway because the availabl implementations are not so flexible as to allow one to extend or "specialize" their behavior with ease.
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2016-11-20T12:25:22Z shrdlu68: I initially wrote it in C, but realized I'd errd, so I rewrote it in Lisp. CLOS + having a full CL interpreter in a fuzzer makes a big difference.
2016-11-20T12:25:33Z Shinmera: shrdlu68: Fair enough
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2016-11-20T12:32:11Z Shinmera: Even if it isn't completely secure, it might be usable as a bootstrap approach for an SSL Quicklisp
2016-11-20T12:32:31Z Shinmera: BearSSL bindings would still be nice to have though.
2016-11-20T12:34:00Z sjl: ugh, I think something somewhere in one of my projects is enabling the fare-quasiquote readtable globally
2016-11-20T12:34:10Z sjl: *one of my projects' dependencies
2016-11-20T12:34:25Z sjl: so then other stuff gets loaded with that readtable enabled
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2016-11-20T12:34:51Z sjl: and then when quicklisp tries to load the FASLs in another project that doesn't depend on fare-quasiquote, it breaks
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2016-11-20T12:35:38Z sjl: so I have to blow away ~/.cache/common-lisp and sit while ironclad recompiles again
2016-11-20T12:36:15Z sjl: or maybe the recompile restart could work
2016-11-20T12:36:28Z sjl: but it's still annoying... I wonder what's the best way to track it down
2016-11-20T12:36:46Z sjl: the problem is that the symptom doesn't show until long after the cause is over
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2016-11-20T14:49:36Z imprfcto: hei
2016-11-20T14:49:43Z imprfcto: are macros the forte of lisp?
2016-11-20T14:49:48Z imprfcto: can I see an example?
2016-11-20T14:49:54Z beach: Hello imprfcto.
2016-11-20T14:50:24Z beach: Macros, generic functions, reader macros, first-class packages, first-class symbols, first-class classes, etc, etc, etc.
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2016-11-20T14:52:42Z imprfcto: arguably one could create C macros as well
2016-11-20T14:53:03Z imprfcto: and use plugins such as ultisnips and stuff like that
2016-11-20T14:53:05Z beach: Common Lisp macros are very different from C macros.
2016-11-20T14:53:21Z imprfcto: in which way?
2016-11-20T14:53:40Z beach: They transform code in the form of an internal data structure, as opposed to transforming strings.
2016-11-20T14:54:17Z beach: That internal data structure is known by all reasonably experienced Common Lisp programmers, and it is standardized.
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2016-11-20T14:55:35Z jackdaniel: C doesn't support macros, only its preprocessor. In Common Lisp they are first-class citizen (like functions)
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2016-11-20T14:56:03Z jackdaniel: so you have whole language at your disposal when you write a macro
2016-11-20T14:56:43Z JuanDaugherty: text, string, lang manip generally i would say
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2016-11-20T14:57:10Z JuanDaugherty: but yeah the macro/reader system is key
2016-11-20T14:58:28Z JuanDaugherty: and nothing comes close after you set some general criteria
2016-11-20T14:58:52Z JuanDaugherty: like 'is a general purpose lang'
2016-11-20T15:00:00Z beach suspects that imprfcto is here for some reason other than learning about Common Lisp and its unique features.
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2016-11-20T15:01:29Z imprfcto: beach: did you read my second line?
2016-11-20T15:01:41Z beach: I did, yes.
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2016-11-20T15:07:02Z JuanDaugherty notes that irc has such feels
2016-11-20T15:08:46Z Fare: good morning
2016-11-20T15:08:55Z beach: Hello Fare.
2016-11-20T15:09:39Z Fare: macros are even better in racket than in cl, but cl still has an edge with clos.
2016-11-20T15:10:15Z Fare goes back to debugging phase separation in asdf
2016-11-20T15:12:08Z imprfcto: it got me thinking because how hard is to tame macros in vim
2016-11-20T15:12:21Z imprfcto: and I remember something about macros in lisp
2016-11-20T15:12:49Z beach: I suspect only the name is the same, and that they are very different.
2016-11-20T15:13:31Z Fare: then, there are excel macros...
2016-11-20T15:14:01Z Fare: and amongst economists, there are micros and macros
2016-11-20T15:14:49Z Fare: and don't forget Super Dimension Fortress Macross...
2016-11-20T15:14:57Z imprfcto: basically I want to transform a keyword 'abc' into a code. In vim this process gets highly complicated with multitude of plugins, crazy combinations of keystrokes and what not.
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2016-11-20T15:16:14Z imprfcto: and essentially what vim + macros + snippets is solving is some sort of automatic coding. String transformations.
2016-11-20T15:16:57Z Fare: first mistake: thinking in terms of strings, instead of AST.
2016-11-20T15:17:19Z imprfcto: what? I made a mistake?
2016-11-20T15:17:35Z imprfcto: and AST is...
2016-11-20T15:17:54Z beach: Abstract Syntax Tree.
2016-11-20T15:18:00Z beach: Standard compiler terminology.
2016-11-20T15:18:08Z imprfcto: ah ok
2016-11-20T15:18:33Z jackdaniel: is it possible that generic-function-method-class to return a symbol?
2016-11-20T15:18:36Z jackdaniel: (mop question)
2016-11-20T15:18:44Z Fare debugs ASDF tests after code upgrade, and finds that he insufficiently documented the tests.
2016-11-20T15:18:51Z beach: mop generic-function-method-class
2016-11-20T15:18:51Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/generic-function-method-class.html
2016-11-20T15:19:09Z beach: "A class metaobject"
2016-11-20T15:19:10Z jackdaniel: beach: yes, I'm reading it – it seems it is not possible, right?
2016-11-20T15:19:16Z beach: Right.
2016-11-20T15:19:22Z jackdaniel tinkers with ECL's mop implementation
2016-11-20T15:19:29Z jackdaniel: so I want to double-check things
2016-11-20T15:19:29Z beach: A symbol is not considered a class metaobject.
2016-11-20T15:19:33Z jackdaniel: thanks
2016-11-20T15:19:41Z beach: Sure.
2016-11-20T15:20:09Z Fare: jackdaniel, does ECL give direct access to the CreateProcess arguments argument on Windows?
2016-11-20T15:20:46Z Fare: that's required for some advanced run-program functionality on Windows (i.e. redirection, etc.)
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2016-11-20T15:21:09Z jackdaniel: it doesn't
2016-11-20T15:21:24Z Fare: should I open a bug?
2016-11-20T15:21:37Z Fare just sent a patch to SBCL for that functionality last night.
2016-11-20T15:22:02Z jackdaniel: is it a bug though? more of a feature request
2016-11-20T15:22:21Z loke: Does SBCL even give you access to posix_spawn on Unix?
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2016-11-20T15:22:42Z loke just checked, no.
2016-11-20T15:23:43Z Fare: loke: it's old enough to do it the hard way with fork.
2016-11-20T15:24:12Z Fare: The problem with posix_spawn is that there will always be one more thing to add to the options that it doesn't handle (yet)
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2016-11-20T15:24:51Z Fare: jackdaniel, right, feature request
2016-11-20T15:25:15Z Fare: allegro, lispworks, ccl, (and if they apply the patch, sbcl) all support it on windows.
2016-11-20T15:25:36Z Fare: I'm not sure what ecl's system does on windows, btw
2016-11-20T15:26:01Z Fare: maybe it calls cmd and that's already a fallback strategy.
2016-11-20T15:26:32Z papachan: hello
2016-11-20T15:26:44Z jackdaniel: run-program calls CreateProcess, check in unixsys.d
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2016-11-20T15:27:01Z jackdaniel: but it doesn't provide a way to customize call to it
2016-11-20T15:27:12Z beach: Hello papachan.
2016-11-20T15:27:17Z jackdaniel: o/
2016-11-20T15:30:11Z Fare: and system calls run-program?
2016-11-20T15:30:42Z jackdaniel: yes, I think in the past it was falling back to cmd, but now it does just that (and is deprecated)
2016-11-20T15:31:28Z Fare: falling back to cmd was working; calling run-program isn't, at least not unless this feature is added to it.
2016-11-20T15:31:50Z jackdaniel: here: http://paste.lisp.org/display/332026
2016-11-20T15:31:52Z Fare: this might explain run-program regression on ecl windows
2016-11-20T15:32:22Z Fare: (I didn't try ecl during my short yet way too long venture into Windows yesterday)
2016-11-20T15:33:29Z Fare: problem is, cmd only works if you leave the arguments unquoted
2016-11-20T15:33:59Z jackdaniel: I've got to go. You may open the feature request, but I'm afraid that unless it's merge request I won't find time to implement it anytime soon
2016-11-20T15:34:07Z Fare: of course
2016-11-20T15:34:24Z jackdaniel: have a nice evenining \o
2016-11-20T15:34:31Z Fare: have a nice morning!
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2016-11-20T15:45:14Z pipping: not sure if that's what that was all about but...
2016-11-20T15:45:19Z pipping: (sb-ext:run-program "cmd" '("/c echo ok 1") :search t :output t)
2016-11-20T15:45:54Z pipping: whoops, sorry, typo'ed that, please ignore. this is correct:
2016-11-20T15:45:57Z pipping: (sb-ext:run-program "cmd" '("/c" "echo ok 1") :search t :output t)
2016-11-20T15:46:10Z pipping: jackdaniel: ^ that works on sbcl and prints "ok 1"
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2016-11-20T15:46:25Z pipping: (ext:run-program "cmd" '("/c" "echo ok 1") :output t)
2016-11-20T15:46:48Z pipping: jackdaniel: ^ that fails on ecl with "'"echo ok 1' is not recognized as an internal or external command..."
2016-11-20T15:47:03Z pipping: that should work, though, shouldn't it, just like on sbcl?
2016-11-20T15:47:58Z Fare: can of worms.
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2016-11-20T15:48:53Z Fare: pipping: ECL incorrectly uses ~S for quoting, instead of windows-compatible quoting
2016-11-20T15:49:28Z pipping: also, (ext:system "ipconfig") works on ECL but (ext:system "ipconfig /all") does not
2016-11-20T15:49:40Z pipping: Fare: yeah. looks like the bug is in ECL rather than UIOP here.
2016-11-20T15:51:11Z Fare: https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/issues/304
2016-11-20T15:52:46Z imprfcto: I guess makes sense to  learn lisp with emacs
2016-11-20T15:53:16Z loke: imprfcto: Yes, that's the best way to use it.
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2016-11-20T15:55:34Z imprfcto: I sorta came to this realization after banging my head with vim for something else.
2016-11-20T15:55:59Z loke: imprfcto: Well, Emacs is a very useful tool even when you're not doing Lisp development.
2016-11-20T15:56:09Z loke: Emacs does make Lisp shine.
2016-11-20T15:56:14Z imprfcto: better to use whatever tool is designed for a particular purpose. Rather than attempting to accomplish with something else.
2016-11-20T15:56:37Z loke: imprfcto: Well, Emacs was not designed for that purpose.
2016-11-20T15:57:11Z imprfcto: but doesn't it share languange?
2016-11-20T15:57:13Z loke: It just happened to be the one used to implement the best Common Lisp programming enviroment.
2016-11-20T15:57:30Z imprfcto: is there a ctags for lisp by the way?
2016-11-20T15:57:31Z loke: imprfcto: Emacs is programmed in Emacs Lisp, which is a different language than Common Lisp.
2016-11-20T15:57:40Z imprfcto: and something like nerdtree?
2016-11-20T15:57:49Z Fare: loke: what is "the best Common Lisp programming enviroment" ?
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2016-11-20T15:58:06Z loke: imprfcto: Yes, but you don't need it. When you developin in CL using SLIME, you have code navigation integrated, and it interacts with the live image.
2016-11-20T15:58:12Z loke: Fare: SLIME
2016-11-20T15:58:23Z loke: (best Open Source environment for Lisp)
2016-11-20T15:58:37Z loke: I have no knowledge of the Lispworks one.
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2016-11-20T16:00:22Z Fare: have you tried SLY?
2016-11-20T16:00:26Z Fare: the SLIME fork
2016-11-20T16:01:29Z loke: Fare: I have. Didn't like it.
2016-11-20T16:01:32Z shrdlu68: If I give the name of a file I know won't be found in asdf:defsystem, shouldn't that signal an error?
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2016-11-20T16:02:16Z Fare: loke: what was different?
2016-11-20T16:02:29Z loke: Fare: No presentations support. I use them all the time.
2016-11-20T16:02:33Z Fare: oh
2016-11-20T16:02:43Z loke: I didn't bother to check anything else, since a key feature was missing.
2016-11-20T16:02:44Z Fare: shrdlu68, can you be more specific?
2016-11-20T16:03:35Z shrdlu68: Fare: (asdf:defsystem...(:file "this-file-does-not-exist")...
2016-11-20T16:04:19Z Fare: well, that will fail when you try to compile
2016-11-20T16:04:24Z Fare: but not at definition time
2016-11-20T16:04:59Z shrdlu68: Okay.
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2016-11-20T16:18:42Z imprfcto: what's a n00b guide to learn lisp?
2016-11-20T16:20:37Z krrrcks: imprfcto: Have a look at "Practical Common Lisp", available online.
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2016-11-20T16:35:01Z shrdlu68: I'm reading about ASDF. It seems one MUST have a symlink to a member of the central registry. Is this correct?
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2016-11-20T16:36:22Z shrdlu68: ...in order to load a system, it must have a symlink in a directory that is a member of *central-registry*
2016-11-20T16:37:42Z shrdlu68: I can't do the analogous asdf of cd src/ && ./configure && make
2016-11-20T16:38:17Z shrdlu68: Without first setting up a symlink.
2016-11-20T16:39:31Z dim: imprfcto: I also like the intro to the language of PAIP
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2016-11-20T17:31:28Z Fare: shrdlu: central-registry is so 2009. Welcome to the source-registry, dude
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2016-11-20T17:32:20Z Fare: which, BTW, include ~/common-lisp/ by default since 2014.
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2016-11-20T17:33:24Z Fare: so, no symlink needed
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2016-11-20T17:52:13Z blizzmamki: hey! lisp is pretty great
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2016-11-20T17:56:06Z warweasle: blizzmamki: We like to think so.
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2016-11-20T17:57:16Z blizzmamki: I'm pretty new to it. Not really a programmer. Got into it from the AutoCAD integration. We
2016-11-20T17:57:20Z blizzmamki: have been enjoying it
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2016-11-20T18:03:48Z Fare: this is the right choir to preach to
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2016-11-20T18:37:55Z shrdlu68_: phoe: I managed to port DH to ironclad.
2016-11-20T18:38:20Z phoe: shrdlu68_: <3~!!
2016-11-20T18:38:29Z phoe: Where can I make a code review?
2016-11-20T18:38:54Z shrdlu68_: phoe: A minute, let me put it somewhere.
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2016-11-20T18:41:00Z phoe: shrdlu68_: ironclad has a github repo. You can make a PR there.
2016-11-20T18:41:15Z shrdlu68_: Okay.
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2016-11-20T18:41:59Z Fare: nice.
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2016-11-20T18:43:16Z Fare: beware the usual things about crypto: if they can time your program or measure power consumption, etc., they can guess your key
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2016-11-20T18:45:55Z phoe: Fare: shrdlu68_ was porting DH from crypticl to ironclad. I don't think he changed much in the actual implementation.
2016-11-20T18:46:11Z phoe: And I don't have the required skills to make a crypto code review, if you mean this.
2016-11-20T18:46:16Z phoe: Just a general Lisp one.
2016-11-20T18:48:20Z Fare: I think a pure lisp implementation is nice to have, and useful for portability purposes (including to pure lisp platforms like Genera or Mezzano), just probably not what you want to use in production on regular platforms (vs a wrapper to well-audited C libraries).
2016-11-20T18:49:00Z Fare: (ones that use constant-time conditional-branch-less primitives, if possible)
2016-11-20T18:50:35Z shrdlu68_: phoe: http://paste.lisp.org/+747G
2016-11-20T18:51:19Z shrdlu68_: Fare: I'm well aware of the pitfalls of implementing crypto :)
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2016-11-20T18:51:56Z Fare: good
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2016-11-20T18:52:14Z shrdlu68_: One of the more interesting bits in one project I'm working on (TLS implementation in CL) is writing a CL function that makes constant-time comparison of octet vectors.
2016-11-20T18:52:47Z Fare: also good as a benchmark / prototype to which to compare other implementations, for speed or correctness -- or as source to compile from, given an appropriate compiler
2016-11-20T18:53:27Z Fare: shrdlu: on SBCL, you can probably define low-level optimizations to handle it for you.
2016-11-20T18:54:18Z shrdlu68_: Fare: Yeah, it's interesting to disassemble and see whether the function really is constant-time across different implementations.
2016-11-20T18:54:56Z phoe: shrdlu68_: of octet vectors?
2016-11-20T18:55:13Z phoe: comparison always depends on the length of the vector though, unless they're fixed length.
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2016-11-20T18:55:42Z shrdlu68_: Speaking of which, ironclad should probably have a "peer reviewed" vector comparison available in the API, seeing as to how it's a crypto lib.
2016-11-20T18:56:18Z shrdlu68_: phoe: Yeah, you have to make sure both vectors have equal length first.
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2016-11-20T18:57:41Z phoe: shrdlu68_: which is O(N).
2016-11-20T18:58:06Z phoe: so you can compare them in constant time under the assumption you have their lengths equal and fixed, which is O(N) itself.
2016-11-20T18:58:54Z phoe: so unless you actually assert that they're all length Y, this is linear and not constant.
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2016-11-20T18:59:21Z shrdlu68_: phoe: Regular comparison functions return as soon as index n is unequal.
2016-11-20T19:00:11Z shrdlu68_: The goal is basically to do the comparison without betraying where it failed, excuse the inaccuracy of my terminology.
2016-11-20T19:02:35Z phoe: Oh, so it's not constant time comparison.
2016-11-20T19:02:51Z phoe: You mean comparison which has no time execution difference between equality and nonequality.
2016-11-20T19:06:43Z shrdlu68_: Yes.
2016-11-20T19:07:56Z Fare: if you store the length with your vector, length comparison is O(1) -- whether that leaks useful data on your system or not depends (see BEAST, CRIME, BREACH, attacks)
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2016-11-20T19:10:29Z phoe: Fare: oh, correct, when the length is precomputed.
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2016-11-20T19:12:50Z phoe: And it seems that CL does the O(1) comparison.
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2016-11-20T19:15:04Z jackdaniel: having mop introduces many traps in clos implementation
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2016-11-20T22:51:18Z pipping: mop mop.
2016-11-20T22:51:18Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for mop..
2016-11-20T22:57:18Z phoe: pipping: ow
2016-11-20T22:58:44Z phoe: oh look
2016-11-20T22:58:44Z phoe: https://learnxinyminutes.com/docs/common-lisp/
2016-11-20T22:59:37Z phoe: ;; Accessing a previously unbound variable is an
2016-11-20T22:59:37Z phoe: ;; undefined behavior (but possible). Don't do it.
2016-11-20T22:59:59Z phoe: Are we sure it's undefined and not an UNBOUND-VARIABLE error?
2016-11-20T23:00:02Z phoe: clhs unbound-variable
2016-11-20T23:00:02Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/e_unbo_1.htm
2016-11-20T23:03:45Z phoe: https://github.com/adambard/learnxinyminutes-docs/issues/2577
2016-11-20T23:04:05Z pipping: phoe: ow?
2016-11-20T23:06:30Z phoe: pipping: specbot looking for mop in mop and not finding it
2016-11-20T23:06:34Z phoe: sort of sad
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2016-11-20T23:12:05Z pipping: true. but then maybe it shouldn't look for 'nom' in 'nom' when I say 'nom nom'
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2016-11-20T23:17:33Z |3b|: phoe: accessing unbound variable is defined, and you can do it all you want
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2016-11-20T23:18:55Z phoe: yes, that's what I noticed
2016-11-20T23:18:56Z |3b|: actually, maybe it is just writing that is undefined
2016-11-20T23:19:11Z phoe: and filed an issue against
2016-11-20T23:19:20Z |3b|: since reading does seem to fall under "unbound variable"
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2016-11-20T23:47:54Z phoe: I do remember when I thought that holding an object's config in a dynamic variable was a good idea
2016-11-20T23:48:10Z phoe: time to refactor myself out of this
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