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2016-09-13T01:07:14Z myfyb: I am considering a internationlization problem for mcclim. Does anyone here knowing a non-English Latin character language such as German, French, Russian or so on, do you use a input method or just type in the keyboard to input characters such as "Здравствуйте"?
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2016-09-13T01:09:04Z raydeejay: french?
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2016-09-13T01:10:46Z raydeejay: with US international layout, the only character that might be difficult to type is ç if you don't have a compose key
2016-09-13T01:11:23Z raydeejay: spanish ñ is just ~ N
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2016-09-13T01:13:18Z myfyb: so we don't need input method such as xim to imput french and spanish?
2016-09-13T01:15:30Z edgar-rft: myfyb: i think your question heavily depends on the xmodmap setup of the X server that CLX (McClim) is talking to
2016-09-13T01:15:59Z pierpa: ç
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2016-09-13T01:16:24Z raydeejay: pierpa: how did you get that? xD
2016-09-13T01:16:45Z pierpa: left-alt-, on an us-international leyout kb
2016-09-13T01:17:04Z pierpa: çÇ
2016-09-13T01:17:21Z pierpa: and even layout!
2016-09-13T01:17:32Z raydeejay: not working... then again I remapped that row, and I use compose quite a lot
2016-09-13T01:17:38Z raydeejay: <compose> c ,
2016-09-13T01:17:46Z raydeejay: bound to the "menu key"
2016-09-13T01:17:58Z pierpa: hmmm
2016-09-13T01:18:05Z raydeejay: æ
2016-09-13T01:18:07Z raydeejay: ẞ
2016-09-13T01:18:11Z raydeejay: ☭
2016-09-13T01:18:12Z myfyb: use a international layout or add a xmodmap can input these languages?
2016-09-13T01:18:27Z myfyb: Thanks
2016-09-13T01:18:27Z raydeejay: <compose> C C C P
2016-09-13T01:18:34Z pierpa: :)
2016-09-13T01:19:13Z raydeejay: and for anything else... C-c h 8 (helm-ucs)
2016-09-13T01:19:43Z pierpa: this won't help in clim, though
2016-09-13T01:19:47Z raydeejay: yeah
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2016-09-13T01:20:26Z raydeejay: so back to <edgar-rft> myfyb: i think your question heavily depends on the xmodmap setup of the X server that CLX (McClim) is talking to [02:14]
2016-09-13T01:21:23Z myfyb: you are right. maybe xmodmap can work in mcclim. it currently just look at the key charater and insert
2016-09-13T01:22:28Z myfyb: and will ignore keyboard layout setting. but a change in xmodmap (I swapped [ and ( ) works in mcclim
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2016-09-13T01:35:38Z edgar-rft: myfyb: Different languages (English, french, german, etc.) usually have different keyboard layouts, sometimes sending *different* key-codes per language for the same key! A well-known key that behaves differently per language is the right-Alt key, that is used in many non-english languages as "alternate grammar" key to add extra character bindings to some keys on the keyboard (umlauts in german or french, etc.).
2016-09-13T01:35:39Z edgar-rft: xmodmap maps according to its setup the key-codes send from the keyboard *before* they are sent via the X-protocol to CLX. This means that the xmodmap setting might be *out of reach* for McClim. I have to read the X-protocol to see if the xmodmap setup can be read via CLX, but I'm afraid that it's not.
2016-09-13T01:36:31Z myfyb: edgar-rft: thank you very much
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2016-09-13T01:40:03Z Bike: i imagine things are more complicated for han input
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2016-09-13T01:45:09Z myfyb: may be where to add this layer is need to be considered. clim spec II seems not consider input method and keyboard layout
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2016-09-13T01:48:48Z edgar-rft: myfyb: the X-protocol keyboard handling is described here: <https://www.x.org/releases/X11R7.7/doc/xproto/x11protocol.html#Keyboards>
2016-09-13T01:50:37Z myfyb: I'll have a look
2016-09-13T01:50:43Z edgar-rft: CLX (and therefore McClim) talks to the X-server via the X-protocol, so everything that's not handled by the X-protocol is *out of reach* for McClim.
2016-09-13T01:51:10Z edgar-rft: Im' just reading it, too, maybe we'll find a possibility...
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2016-09-13T01:54:06Z myfyb: edgar-rft: there is a xkeyboard on quicklisp, add some keyboard extensions to clx, but poor documented
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2016-09-13T02:02:14Z edgar-rft: myfyb: Mapping human languages (english, french...) to "things" that a computer can "understand" is one of the most challenging topics in computer science. Expect to spend half of your life before you have even a glimse of an idea how it *could* work. There is no known solution that really works wil *all* human languages yet, but Unicode (after nearly thirty years) meanwhile is really close to it.
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2016-09-13T02:04:07Z edgar-rft: At least on the key-code-to-character-mapping level (I forgot to say)....
2016-09-13T02:07:58Z myfyb: Yes it's quite hard. I'm from China, langs like Chinese, Japanese all need a input method, that is type sth to a panel and choose words by numpad then input into the target text edit widgets. That's much unconvinient than langs based on Latin characters.
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2016-09-13T02:19:13Z jason_m: it seems to me that in ccl on linux, when building an application with ccl:save-application, *error-output* is not necessarily the same thing as the stderr stream.  Is this correct?  And if so, is there a way to bind to to a stream representing stderr?
2016-09-13T02:20:00Z jason_m: searching for ccl and stderr didn't turn much up
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2016-09-13T02:27:00Z edgar-rft: myfyb: The X input methods are described here: <https://www.x.org/releases/X11R7.6/doc/libX11/specs/XIM/xim.html> but now I'm even more afraid that this will become more complicated than a doctotoral thesis. :-)
2016-09-13T02:27:00Z edgar-rft: Also there is a "xev" program that comes with every X installation that can show you what X-events and key-codes are send via the X-protocol (that can be accessed by CLX) when you type something on your keyboard.
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2016-09-13T02:30:07Z edgar-rft: jason_m: sory, no idea, but it's true that *error-output* is not necessarily the same as stderr of the shell that a common lisp implementation was started from. Probably the folks on #ccl can help you better, because that seems to be an implementation-specific thing.
2016-09-13T02:36:48Z jason_m: thanks edgar-rft, i've asked my question in #ccl
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2016-09-13T02:48:12Z myfyb: edgar-rft: thanks. yes it's quite hard to read. xev is quite useful, I have just tried it
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2016-09-13T02:58:46Z pillton: jason_m: You can bind ccl::*stderr* to *error-output*.
2016-09-13T03:00:05Z jason_m: pillton: I saw that in some old entries in a bug tracker, but i don't see *stderr* as a symbol in the ccl package.
2016-09-13T03:00:12Z pillton: It is private.
2016-09-13T03:00:18Z jason_m: ah, ::
2016-09-13T03:00:23Z pillton: (apropos "stderr")
2016-09-13T03:01:20Z jason_m: thanks, i'll have to give that a try
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2016-09-13T03:01:30Z pillton: Most implementations provide make-fd-stream which allows you to create a lisp stream from a file descriptor.
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2016-09-13T03:02:01Z jason_m: i think there is more to my problem than just that, however, as this simple program behaves as i expect http://paste.lisp.org/display/325913
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2016-09-13T03:02:44Z pillton: Yeah. I got that result too.
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2016-09-13T03:04:42Z jason_m: the program i'm trying to work with is a web application written for clack's fastcgi backend.  i read that anything written the the fcgi processs's stderr stream should end up in the server's (apache's) error log, but i'm not seeing anything (although i am expecting messages to get written there).  it could be going wrong in a number of places.
2016-09-13T03:04:56Z pillton: jason_m: BTW, you can use [ ":" ; exec ccl64 -l "$0" $@ ] as a she-band line (excluding the '[' and ']').
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2016-09-13T03:06:09Z pillton: jason_m: find <clack-source> -name '*.lisp' -print -exec grep error-output '{}' ';'
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2016-09-13T03:10:10Z jason_m: pillton: that line goes at the top of a source file?
2016-09-13T03:10:39Z pillton: jason_m: The she-bang line? Yes.
2016-09-13T03:11:15Z jason_m: i haven't seen one like that.  and the colon needs to be quotted?
2016-09-13T03:11:40Z pillton: Yes.
2016-09-13T03:13:17Z pillton: jason_m: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.slime.devel/11628
2016-09-13T03:13:26Z pillton gives credit to the right person.
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2016-09-13T03:16:21Z sausages: does SBCL do a little bit of consing each time a foreign function is called?
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2016-09-13T03:18:14Z Bike: wouldn't surprise me, has to unbox values and stuff perhaps
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2016-09-13T03:21:38Z jason_m: pillton: I'll have to try out that shebang trick.  the find on the clack sources didn't turn up anything that looked like it was messing with error-output.  i'm at the end of my capacity for looking into it tonight.  thanks for the help.
2016-09-13T03:23:25Z pillton: jason_m: No worries. Best of luck tomorrow.
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2016-09-13T03:56:42Z jasom: I didn't know about ccl::*stderr*; I've always just done a make fd stream on fd 2
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2016-09-13T07:22:35Z myrkraverk: Why does it seem that Verbose does nothing, when I start it with sbcl --script, but when I --load the file, it works?
2016-09-13T07:23:05Z pillton: Verbose?
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2016-09-13T07:23:21Z myrkraverk: Is verbose somehow only appropriate to for repl based environments?
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2016-09-13T07:23:28Z myrkraverk: http://shinmera.github.io/verbose/
2016-09-13T07:24:07Z myrkraverk: I was hoping I could avoid syslog for logging, without writing my own framework.
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2016-09-13T07:24:51Z myrkraverk: And Verbose has this nice interval based log rotation, but it doesn't seem I can use it at all.
2016-09-13T07:25:49Z pillton: I don't use Verbose sorry.
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2016-09-13T07:27:13Z myrkraverk: no prob.
2016-09-13T07:27:27Z myrkraverk: I'm open to other log frameworks, tbh.
2016-09-13T07:27:41Z myrkraverk: Or I'll just fall back to SBCL's syslog.
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2016-09-13T08:18:36Z pipping: myrkraverk: please see http://www.cliki.net/logging
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2016-09-13T08:54:36Z John[Lisbeth]: have krivine machines been implemented in lisp?
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2016-09-13T09:41:22Z myrkraverk: pipping: looked at it, and then decided to use syslog directly for my production use.
2016-09-13T09:42:05Z myrkraverk: Anyway, do I have anything else than INTERN to turn a string into symbol?
2016-09-13T09:42:50Z myrkraverk: In particular, I want to turn some-prefix- and the string "foo" into the symbol some-prefiix-foo.  There's not macro magic syntax to do that, is there?
2016-09-13T09:43:24Z myrkraverk: So I just (intern (concatenate 'string "some-prefix-" foo)) ; where foo is "foo".
2016-09-13T09:44:54Z loke: myrkraverk: What's wrong with that?
2016-09-13T09:45:10Z loke: myrkraverk: I mean, "intern" is _the_ way to turn a string into a symbol
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2016-09-13T09:45:30Z myrkraverk: There's absolutely nothing wrong with it.  I just want to make sure "that's the way to do it" -- instead of some magic macro syntax.
2016-09-13T09:45:32Z loke: Well, there is also make-symbol, but that one is never what you want.
2016-09-13T09:46:07Z lieven: and generally you want "SOME-PREFIX-" in upper case
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2016-09-13T09:49:14Z myrkraverk: Ok, then next question -- how would I look up my newly created symbol in package bar:some-prefix-foo ?
2016-09-13T09:49:39Z myrkraverk: Err, package bar, like bar:some-prefix-foo?
2016-09-13T09:50:00Z ecraven: if it is exported, then bar:..., if it isn't, then bar::...
2016-09-13T09:50:04Z loke: myrkraverk: Try FIND-SYMBOL
2016-09-13T09:50:14Z loke: (find-symbol "SOME-PREFIX-FOO" "BAR")
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2016-09-13T09:52:27Z myrkraverk: Oh yeah, FIND-SYMBOL it is.
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2016-09-13T10:13:44Z Grue``: myrkraverk: I use (intern (concatenate 'string (symbol-name :some-prefix-) base-name))
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2016-09-13T10:14:39Z Grue``: this ensures that the case is correct regardless of *readtable-case*
2016-09-13T10:14:50Z Grue``: (of course, base-name is also derived from a symbol)
2016-09-13T10:19:51Z loke: And if you have a string, you might need (read-from-string "foo")
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2016-09-13T10:45:45Z myrkraverk: Well, the idea was to get the variable value of the symbol.
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2016-09-13T10:46:06Z myrkraverk: (eval (find-symbol ...)) so far does what I want.
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2016-09-13T10:54:02Z White_Flame: myrkraverk: (symbol-value (find-symbol ...)) works for the toplevel or dynamically bound value of the symbol
2016-09-13T10:54:40Z myrkraverk: In this case, I really want the symbol value inside a given package.
2016-09-13T10:55:10Z myrkraverk: And it should be a constant.
2016-09-13T10:55:18Z White_Flame: right.  Symbol-value should work.  It won't work if the symbol is just used lexically
2016-09-13T10:55:25Z myrkraverk: Ok.
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2016-09-13T10:55:38Z White_Flame: and it's much more trustworthy than EVAL in terms of security and bugs
2016-09-13T10:55:44Z White_Flame: becuase it just does the specific thing you want
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2016-09-13T10:59:39Z myrkraverk: Oh yeah, thanksy.
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2016-09-13T11:30:17Z dmitigr: hi. who are maintains the http://sbcl-internals.cliki.net/ ?
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2016-09-13T11:33:32Z z0d: http://www.sbcl.org/sbcl-internals/
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2016-09-13T11:43:04Z Xach: fe[nl]ix: issue
2016-09-13T11:43:16Z fe[nl]ix: ok
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2016-09-13T11:47:31Z dmitigr: z0d: thanks. the link to http://sbcl-internals.cliki.net/ in the official SBCL documentation here http://www.sbcl.org/manual/index.html#Internals-Documentation
2016-09-13T11:51:52Z myrkraverk: What is the format string I should use for decoded time?
2016-09-13T11:52:37Z myrkraverk: The format string "~2,'d" throws me into the debugger when the value is 0 -- which happens at least once every minute, when the second value is 0.
2016-09-13T11:52:59Z myrkraverk: And this is where I get it from: http://cl-cookbook.sourceforge.net/dates_and_times.html
2016-09-13T11:55:26Z myrkraverk: Ah, no matter -- a typo on my part -- I forgot the ' before the third 0.
2016-09-13T11:56:15Z White_Flame: it's good to pull in a library like local-time to deal with date formatting
2016-09-13T11:56:41Z White_Flame: it's got some read macros for datetime literals and such as well
2016-09-13T11:58:26Z myrkraverk: Oh, yeah.
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2016-09-13T14:02:49Z beach: Good afternoon everyone!
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2016-09-13T14:19:05Z HerrBlume: good afternoon
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2016-09-13T14:20:33Z dmitigr: good
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2016-09-13T14:49:44Z pipping: myrkraverk: I'd give portable options another thought. SBCL is great but maybe you'll want to add support for another lisp at some point.
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