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2016-09-12T00:03:28Z pierpa: at the current cost, 15M of ram are worth about 7.5 cents
2016-09-12T00:05:16Z pierpa: I wouldn't worry about it :)
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2016-09-12T00:24:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: magicuser: there is linedit
2016-09-12T00:24:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: I use it, and it works pretty well
2016-09-12T00:24:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://common-lisp.net/project/linedit/
2016-09-12T00:25:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: Ah, antoszka beat me too it
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2016-09-12T01:57:37Z trocado: hey! anyone available to help me out with a simple thing?
2016-09-12T02:05:36Z Xach: trocado: what's up?
2016-09-12T02:07:57Z trocado: is it possible to have a destructive function inside a loop?
2016-09-12T02:08:02Z trocado: ;    (let ((result nil) ;          (highest-note (apply 'max chord))) ;      (dolist (note chord result) ;        (push (nsubst (upa note highest-note) note chord) result)))))
2016-09-12T02:08:15Z trocado: forget that
2016-09-12T02:08:31Z trocado: see this one:
2016-09-12T02:08:36Z trocado: (defun rotate (chord)   (labels ((upa (a b)              (cond ((>= a b) a)                    (t (upa (+ a 12) b)))))       (loop for note in chord             with highest-note = (apply 'max chord)             collect (nsubst (upa note highest-note) note chord))))
2016-09-12T02:09:38Z trocado: when it updates the list chord it also changes the accumulator...
2016-09-12T02:09:47Z trocado: sorry if this doesn't make sense
2016-09-12T02:12:27Z Bike: could you put that on paste.lisp.org, it's hard to read like that. there is at least no reason you can't have a destructive function inside a loop
2016-09-12T02:13:59Z pierpa: the joy os data structures mutation
2016-09-12T02:14:14Z pierpa: the accumulator changes because you are modifying alwaysthe same conses
2016-09-12T02:14:15Z trocado: http://paste.lisp.org/+6ZEY
2016-09-12T02:16:51Z Bike: so what is it doing that you don't want it to do
2016-09-12T02:17:34Z Bike: and is it fixed if you use subst instead of nsubst
2016-09-12T02:18:02Z trocado: it returns a list of identical lists
2016-09-12T02:18:26Z Bike: well, right, because nsubst alters chord.
2016-09-12T02:18:46Z cromachina: destructive versions of functions do not guarantee that the alter structure represents the returned structure
2016-09-12T02:18:57Z cromachina: altered structure*
2016-09-12T02:19:06Z trocado: but is it possible to accumulate the result of each iteration?
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2016-09-12T02:19:13Z Bike: cromachina: nsubst does.
2016-09-12T02:19:21Z Bike: trocado: sure. don't destroy it. use subst instead.
2016-09-12T02:19:48Z Bike: trocado: you want multiple altered copies of the list. using nsubst is not appropriate here.
2016-09-12T02:19:52Z trocado: but each subsequential iteration must build upon the previously altered list...
2016-09-12T02:20:20Z Bike: oh, then it's a bit more complicated but not too bad.
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2016-09-12T02:20:37Z Bike: you need to put the subst result in a variable is all.
2016-09-12T02:21:04Z trocado: ok, let me try that...
2016-09-12T02:21:50Z Bike: something like... (loop for note in chord for achord = (subst (upa note (apply 'max chord)) note chord) then (subst (upa note (apply 'max achord)) note achord) collect achord) maybe.
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2016-09-12T02:23:17Z DavidGu: Hello everyone
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2016-09-12T02:23:53Z trocado: Bike: yes! it worked like a charm! many thanks! I have still much to learn... :)
2016-09-12T02:24:10Z Bike: welcome
2016-09-12T02:24:42Z DavidGu: Does anybody know how to contact the author of the book <object oriented programming in Common Lisp>, Sonja E. Keene
2016-09-12T02:25:13Z DavidGu: I can barely find any information on Internet
2016-09-12T02:26:14Z pierpa: Sonja Keene was a doc writer at Symbolycs. Probably se has worked in completely different fields for the last 30 years.
2016-09-12T02:26:18Z JuanDaugherty: prolly retired
2016-09-12T02:26:22Z Bike: you know that book's thirty years old right
2016-09-12T02:26:23Z pierpa: *she
2016-09-12T02:26:54Z DavidGu: We'd like to translate her book into Chinese, though it is an pretty old one, we want to ask about the copyright stuff, if possible
2016-09-12T02:27:06Z DavidGu: Yes, it's an old book
2016-09-12T02:27:18Z Bike: try the publisher?
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2016-09-12T02:27:41Z pierpa: you should definitely ask the publisher
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2016-09-12T02:27:49Z Bike: yeah, it's addison-wesley, they haven't folded or nuthin
2016-09-12T02:28:54Z DavidGu: Oh yes, that's a better way to try
2016-09-12T02:29:04Z DavidGu: Thanks  😄
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2016-09-12T03:11:05Z magicuser: I thought object oriented programming wasnt really needed in lisp..
2016-09-12T03:11:37Z Bike: nothing's ever really "needed", but it can be nice
2016-09-12T03:11:56Z magicuser: Is there anything for doing lots of string wrangling on huge liek 2T files in lisp? anything that might run concurrently on more than 1 machine and coordinate itslef?
2016-09-12T03:12:17Z magicuser: I am at a company that uses perl
2016-09-12T03:12:28Z magicuser: to do this and heh I dream of better
2016-09-12T03:13:03Z magicuser: I do wonder sometimes if it is a job for postgresql
2016-09-12T03:13:15Z magicuser: with that sharding thing and indexing stuff
2016-09-12T03:13:42Z magicuser: it seems many dismiss postgresql for cassandra n friends without really knowing what it can do
2016-09-12T03:13:53Z magicuser: on the assumption of bad performance
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2016-09-12T03:17:27Z magicuser: hmmmmmm
2016-09-12T03:17:41Z magicuser: maybe until you get the whole lot into ram with hadoop you are farked
2016-09-12T03:17:55Z magicuser: is there a lambdoop?
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2016-09-12T03:19:16Z cromachina: grep awk sed and perl will probably give you more succinct answers. lisp may give you a flexible one. not sure how databases apply to your problem from a shallow glance
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2016-09-12T03:20:59Z magicuser: awk is fascinating
2016-09-12T03:21:12Z magicuser: I always fumble with it and end up with short fast solution
2016-09-12T03:21:20Z magicuser: very short
2016-09-12T03:21:22Z magicuser: very fast
2016-09-12T03:21:45Z magicuser: they have there like patent files
2016-09-12T03:21:57Z magicuser: and need to make sense of them vs other patent claims
2016-09-12T03:22:01Z cromachina: anything beyond 1-liner and you will want to dip into something more expressive, imo
2016-09-12T03:22:03Z magicuser: and every format different
2016-09-12T03:22:47Z magicuser: I thought postgrsql had some kinda indexer thing like elasticsearch or solr etc...not seeing in doc right away
2016-09-12T03:22:55Z cromachina: ah, so you want to normalize the data, like make it a common format?
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2016-09-12T03:27:14Z cromachina: also for terrabytes of data, you may want a commercial version of a data aggregator/search like splunk
2016-09-12T03:27:58Z magicuser: well curent employer does its own database
2016-09-12T03:28:05Z magicuser: based on all this indexing work
2016-09-12T03:28:17Z magicuser: I am not sure they use map reduce kinda stuff.
2016-09-12T03:28:23Z magicuser: who knows
2016-09-12T03:28:31Z magicuser: I am not on the dev side....
2016-09-12T03:28:47Z magicuser: perl I dont think does map reduce.....or?
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2016-09-12T03:30:46Z cromachina: im sure there is a library for it
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2016-09-12T03:34:02Z magicuser: :)
2016-09-12T03:34:14Z magicuser: whats wild is They have tons of ram and cpu
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2016-09-12T03:34:22Z magicuser: 100s of gigs ram and dozens cpu
2016-09-12T03:34:36Z magicuser: but all tied to 1 slow crappy netapp over NFS and 3Gbit controller
2016-09-12T03:34:36Z magicuser: lol
2016-09-12T03:34:57Z magicuser: so 375MB/s read and 165MB/s write are hard limits of craptastik disk setup
2016-09-12T03:34:59Z cromachina: well it's good that you can identify the bottleneck
2016-09-12T03:35:15Z magicuser: I am getting something much diskier
2016-09-12T03:35:20Z magicuser: to remove that
2016-09-12T03:35:25Z cromachina: an SSD?
2016-09-12T03:35:48Z magicuser: I then have to convince devs to write code that uses less disk more cpu/ram
2016-09-12T03:36:01Z magicuser: yes possibly 12Gbit/s controller and many SSD
2016-09-12T03:36:07Z magicuser: they have like 28T active
2016-09-12T03:36:11Z magicuser: so its a bitch
2016-09-12T03:36:22Z magicuser: they really need like hadoop
2016-09-12T03:36:33Z magicuser: or openMPI or some cluster thingy
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2016-09-12T03:36:45Z cromachina: have you suggested it?
2016-09-12T03:36:47Z magicuser: or to get smart and redduce thier active dataset
2016-09-12T03:36:56Z magicuser: I have and there is much fear
2016-09-12T03:37:00Z magicuser: small company
2016-09-12T03:37:26Z cromachina: fear is the mind-killer
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2016-09-12T03:40:37Z magicuser: I am trying to not push zfs and freebsd on them.....because I dont know what a 128G ram box will do with ZFS.....would it speed up th 165/write 375 read?
2016-09-12T03:40:40Z magicuser: hmmm
2016-09-12T03:41:02Z magicuser: I did get them to redo one array direct attached to raid 10
2016-09-12T03:41:12Z magicuser: so that will get 375/375
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2016-09-12T03:41:27Z magicuser: that might double the job speed.....
2016-09-12T03:41:32Z magicuser: which runs for days
2016-09-12T03:41:38Z magicuser: so maybe save a day!
2016-09-12T03:41:42Z magicuser: thats productive right?
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2016-09-12T03:43:11Z cromachina: i'd say so
2016-09-12T03:43:37Z cromachina: i improved some database fill from 24+ hours to 12 hours once
2016-09-12T03:43:56Z cromachina: that means a user can run it over night and have the results to test with in the morning
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2016-09-12T03:46:43Z magicuser: its just staggering how much of the data is just a waste of space
2016-09-12T03:46:47Z magicuser: I suspect
2016-09-12T03:46:55Z magicuser: I mean 10k is 10,000 lines of code
2016-09-12T03:47:07Z magicuser: a human can easily be overwhelmed by 100 lines
2016-09-12T03:47:26Z magicuser: or 10 of its like a spreadsheet and each word is a data item
2016-09-12T03:48:50Z cromachina: i peruse over a multi-million line code base daily..
2016-09-12T03:50:24Z cromachina: organization and isolation help a lot with that
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2016-09-12T04:00:27Z magicuser: woa really?
2016-09-12T04:00:35Z magicuser: is it an os?
2016-09-12T04:01:25Z cromachina: video game
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2016-09-12T04:06:02Z bottle: Would it an os? Video game. So three hundred seventy five megabytes per second read and perl will want to do with zfs. I am not push zfs. Very fast. Would it is a flexible one hundred twenty eight terabytes active dataset. I do this indexing stuff. I always fumble with in lisp? Grep, because I thought postgrsql had some kinda stuff. I improved some kinda stuff. Is a human can run it seems.
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2016-09-12T04:07:46Z cromachina: what is that some bot summary?
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2016-09-12T04:12:05Z magicuser: smells like an insult
2016-09-12T04:12:18Z pillton: I think this conversation might be better to have in #lispcafe.
2016-09-12T04:12:40Z magicuser: are we treading over another topic? if so what?
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2016-09-12T04:15:07Z magicuser: well it was fun while it lasted
2016-09-12T04:15:09Z magicuser: night all
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2016-09-12T05:13:58Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2016-09-12T05:16:15Z jasom: good morning
2016-09-12T05:18:14Z FareTower: chào buổi sáng
2016-09-12T05:19:45Z beach: What's whit the new handle?
2016-09-12T05:19:49Z beach: with
2016-09-12T05:19:56Z beach: [not quite awake yet]
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2016-09-12T05:39:16Z Fare: not so new
2016-09-12T05:39:30Z Fare: it's a fallback handle when the old one is still taken
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2016-09-12T08:24:49Z myrkraverk: When I want to have an extra variable in a loop, which is updated with its initial-value form, can I do that simply?
2016-09-12T08:25:51Z myrkraverk: As in (loop for ... with foo = (form) do (stuff)) ; according to gigamonkeys, the (form) is only evaluated once, at initialization.
2016-09-12T08:26:19Z myrkraverk: Can I tell the loop to update it on each iteration, without repeating the form?
2016-09-12T08:26:47Z myrkraverk: As in, I know about (loop ... with foo = (form) then (form) ...) but I'd like to avoid the duplication.
2016-09-12T08:27:02Z myrkraverk: (ok, alternatively, I can use a (let ...) inside the do)
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2016-09-12T08:33:30Z myrkraverk: Ok, I can do that with an additional :for -- nice to know that.
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2016-09-12T09:35:25Z raydeejay: myrkraverk, you don't *need* the :then clause: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw51/CLHS/Body/06_abad.htm
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2016-09-12T09:45:41Z myrkraverk: raydeejay: I thought I'd need :then when I introduce a variable with :with.
2016-09-12T09:45:49Z myrkraverk: As opposed to :for.
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2016-09-12T13:02:33Z devon: How would a Lisp program capture photos or video?
2016-09-12T13:04:25Z cromachina: by using a library suitable for the task
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2016-09-12T13:10:44Z solene: hello, I know LISP (at least I can write programs with it) but I think that I lack some knownledge in LISP and while I know how to write LISP, it's only by try/guess and not because I fully understand what I'm doing. What book / online book would you recommend me ?
2016-09-12T13:11:27Z solene: I am speaking about Common LISP
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2016-09-12T13:12:29Z cromachina: an introduction to common lisp for people who already know how to program: http://gigamonkeys.com/book/
2016-09-12T13:12:50Z cromachina: and then extend that knowledge with some macrology: http://letoverlambda.com/
2016-09-12T13:13:19Z fe[nl]ix: solene: 978-1590592397 and 978-1484211779
2016-09-12T13:13:25Z solene: cromachina: I've learned a lot from gigamonkeys book, I'll check the second website
2016-09-12T13:13:55Z splittist: On Lisp might be the better introduction to macrology (although many dislike PG's general CL style and approach).
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2016-09-12T13:15:17Z solene: thank you splittist , fe[nl]ix and cromachina
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2016-09-12T13:15:36Z cromachina: as far as trying and guessing goes, look at related definitions in clhs when you are looking something up
2016-09-12T13:15:55Z raydeejay: I'll say Land of Lisp before I get ninja'd
2016-09-12T13:16:45Z solene: cromachina: I look it when I need to use a function I can't remember / don't know. I lack more knowledge about asdf packages, the # character, and I only know how to write really simple macros
2016-09-12T13:16:57Z shrdlu68: solene: The Common lisp cookbook.
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2016-09-12T13:17:19Z shrdlu68: Graham's PAIP also has introductory chapters on Lisp.
2016-09-12T13:17:39Z pipping: splittist: could you summarise what's typically criticised about his style/approach or point me to a place where somebody's done just that?
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2016-09-12T13:20:22Z Xof: here's one: http://www.cs.northwestern.edu/academics/courses/325/readings/graham/graham-notes.html
2016-09-12T13:22:28Z splittist: pipping: Xof is my bot
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2016-09-12T13:25:36Z Xach: norvig's paip
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2016-09-12T13:28:35Z Grue``: I feel like Let over Lambda style is way more controversial than whatever Graham ever wrote
2016-09-12T13:28:38Z pierpa: or Graham's ACL
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2016-09-12T13:29:56Z pierpa: Let Over Lambda is one of the few lisp books I have not looked at. Is it a worthy book?
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2016-09-12T13:30:48Z ritschmaster: solene: I have collected many things you need everyday in Lisp in an .org document: https://github.com/ritschmaster/CL-Guide
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2016-09-12T13:31:56Z solene: ritschmaster: bookmarked
2016-09-12T13:32:20Z cromachina: oh great god of macros, is my sacrifice worthy!?
2016-09-12T13:32:43Z raydeejay: λ
2016-09-12T13:33:21Z icerove: I think LOL is a good book, but if you have read onlisp, most chapters introduce same things
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2016-09-12T13:38:43Z icerove: Is anyone here going to the LispNYC meeting on Sept 20？I found they are mostly talk about clj or scm, want to  meet some common lisp peers
2016-09-12T13:39:22Z solene: when you have a list with keywords and values, how would you remove the keywords ?
2016-09-12T13:39:28Z pierpa: icerove: ok. ty
2016-09-12T13:39:31Z solene: and keep only their values
2016-09-12T13:40:22Z pierpa: REMOVE-IF
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2016-09-12T13:41:00Z pierpa: (remove-if #'keywordp list)
2016-09-12T13:42:33Z solene: pierpa: so efficient. I was doing a loop collecting every 2 elements...
2016-09-12T13:42:54Z pierpa: it's shorter, but probably not faster
2016-09-12T13:44:14Z pierpa: (also DELETE-IF if you are allowed to trash the list)
2016-09-12T13:44:26Z solene: what does that mean ?
2016-09-12T13:44:38Z pierpa: ?
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2016-09-12T13:45:10Z pierpa: about DELETE-IF you mean?
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2016-09-12T13:46:00Z splittist: pierpa: not so good if some of your values are keywords
2016-09-12T13:46:00Z solene: pierpa: "trash the list" ?
2016-09-12T13:46:16Z solene: splittist: in my cases values are not keywords
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2016-09-12T13:46:52Z pierpa: if you know that it's safe to modify the list, you can use the delete version
2016-09-12T13:47:12Z pierpa: it will be a little faster
2016-09-12T13:47:15Z solene: ok, and remove-if will give a new list ?
2016-09-12T13:47:20Z pierpa: yes
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2016-09-12T13:49:00Z pierpa: splittist: the spec asked for "remove the keywords", not for get the values out of an alist.  But probably yu are right nevertheless :)
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2016-09-12T13:49:52Z solene: I didn't thought having a keyword as a keyword value
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2016-09-12T13:50:21Z pipping: Xof: thanks. Unfortunately the detailed comments cannot be understood without looping up the relevant chapters in the book, but I think I'm getting the gist of it.
2016-09-12T13:50:24Z splittist: alexandria (and others) has DOPLIST
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2016-09-12T13:51:06Z pipping: looking up, even. for some reason my fingers prefer to type 'loop' over 'look'. wonder why that is...
2016-09-12T13:53:42Z pipping: solene: example: (sb-ext:run-program "/bin/ls" nil :output :stream)
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2016-09-12T13:54:55Z solene: yeah, true, forgot this
2016-09-12T13:55:08Z solene: or :if-exists :supersede
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2016-09-12T13:56:39Z solene: how would you write a XOR condition ? (not (= (= a 5) (= b 5)))
2016-09-12T13:58:26Z Fade: boreilly@securitycompass.com:9$y2;wWGkhV/?_MvH,8'-fW:h/Zd
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2016-09-12T13:59:48Z ritschmaster: XOR is bitwise
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2016-09-12T14:01:03Z ritschmaster: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exclusive_or#Equivalences.2C_elimination.2C_and_introduction
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2016-09-12T14:01:37Z ritschmaster: So you can do: (defun xor (a b) (and (or a b) (not (and a b))))
2016-09-12T14:02:18Z ritschmaster: You can run this function bitwise over A and B.
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2016-09-12T14:02:57Z devon: Photo/video capture suggestions please?
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2016-09-12T14:15:40Z warweasle: Is there a good lisp for .NET? Like we have for the JVM?
2016-09-12T14:16:36Z ritschmaster: ironlisp?
2016-09-12T14:16:44Z ritschmaster: Or something like that.
2016-09-12T14:17:23Z ritschmaster: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IronLisp looks like it is discontinued.
2016-09-12T14:17:45Z ritschmaster: But the scheme successor looks good.
2016-09-12T14:17:59Z warweasle: ritschmaster: Oh, I'll look that up.
2016-09-12T14:18:30Z ritschmaster: The website says that there is even a channel on this network: #IronScheme
2016-09-12T14:18:42Z warweasle: Oh, it's being maintained!
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2016-09-12T14:20:06Z warweasle: Although I wish I could use emacs's C# mode. But I can't figure out how to work with forms.
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2016-09-12T14:20:32Z JuanDaugherty: .net webforms?
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2016-09-12T14:21:10Z JuanDaugherty: current asp, etc. Also you might check #racket for .net interfaces
2016-09-12T14:21:20Z JuanDaugherty: or #scheme
2016-09-12T14:21:22Z warweasle: JuanDaugherty: I'm not very familiar with .net so I don't know.
2016-09-12T14:21:43Z warweasle: I tried #emacs but haven't heard back yet. But they are pretty cool given time.
2016-09-12T14:21:49Z JuanDaugherty: it has a variety of HTML forms processing schemes
2016-09-12T14:21:56Z JuanDaugherty: if that's what you meant
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2016-09-12T14:22:12Z JuanDaugherty: but it's off topic here
2016-09-12T14:23:22Z JuanDaugherty: i don't expect a lot of common lisp and .net intersection
2016-09-12T14:23:34Z JuanDaugherty: scheme maybe more so
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2016-09-12T14:24:57Z JuanDaugherty: allegro probably has something
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2016-09-12T14:26:39Z Grue``: solene: if some of values might be keywords themselves, you need to remove every odd element in the list, instead of removing every keyword
2016-09-12T14:27:22Z Grue``: (loop for (key value) on list by 'cddr collect value)
2016-09-12T14:27:50Z Grue``: wait, no
2016-09-12T14:28:04Z Grue``: (loop for (key value . rest) on list by 'cddr collect value)
2016-09-12T14:28:16Z Grue``: completely untested of course
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2016-09-12T14:28:31Z solene: Grue` what does mean 'cddr ?
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2016-09-12T14:28:59Z TMA: solene: (cddr x) === (cdr (cdr x))
2016-09-12T14:29:09Z Grue``: (cddr list) is the tail of list starting from the 3rd element
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2016-09-12T14:30:03Z solene: ok, and what is value . rest ?
2016-09-12T14:30:48Z Grue``: it's a destructuring form. key and value is 1st and 2nd element. rest is the tail
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2016-09-12T14:31:19Z Grue``: the syntax is that of "dotted list", explaining it requires understanding of conses
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2016-09-12T14:34:11Z solene: I never understood what cons do, I need to read the books quoted earlier in the channel
2016-09-12T14:34:12Z Grue``: there are actually several different methods to achieve the same result, "loop on by cddr" is pretty idiomatic, but might be hard to understand
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2016-09-12T14:35:06Z Grue``: (loop for element in list for i from 1 if (evenp i) collect element) is a straightforward way
2016-09-12T14:35:38Z solene: I wrote (loop for i from 1 to (length tag-list) by 2 collect (nth i tag-list))
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2016-09-12T14:36:27Z Grue``: that's "accidentally quadratic" (inefficient)
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2016-09-12T14:37:13Z Grue``: if you do (for element in list ...) it visits every element efficiently and you don't need to (nth n list) to get it
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2016-09-12T14:38:03Z solene: okay
2016-09-12T14:38:18Z Grue``: if you read about conses you will understand why operations like length, nth and some others are inefficient on lists
2016-09-12T14:38:37Z solene: if they are not for list, on what shoud I use it ?
2016-09-12T14:38:49Z solene: sequences ?
2016-09-12T14:39:25Z Xach: They are fine to use, but not good for using repeatedly the way you have
2016-09-12T14:39:28Z Grue``: they are for list, but that doesn't mean they should be used willy-nilly
2016-09-12T14:39:34Z raydeejay: if you need random access, an array is more suited than a list
2016-09-12T14:40:31Z solene: in this case my list never has more than 6 or 8 elements so I didn't see it slow
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2016-09-12T14:40:42Z Grue``: basically for most things you can do with a list, you want to traverse it only once. however each of these operations traverses the list from the beginning. you want to have one loop that goes through list and does what you want
2016-09-12T14:41:35Z raydeejay: tangentially related, what's a good book about, or partly about, data structures wrt CL?
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2016-09-12T15:00:19Z pierpa: I'd say data structures and CL are orthogonal. "Data structure in Foo" books tend to use quircks of Foo, but any book not tied to a particular language will do fine.
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2016-09-12T15:25:25Z dunderproto: How is the editing support for lisp on vim?
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2016-09-12T15:28:14Z Xach: dunderproto: i think the latest thing to help with that is called slimv
2016-09-12T15:28:32Z Xach: dunderproto: i don't know many people who use vim with lisp but there are a few. probably not many in this channel, though.
2016-09-12T15:29:17Z dunderproto: Xach: thanks
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2016-09-12T15:34:23Z sjl: dunderproto: I've been poking off and on at using nrepl to work with lisp from vim
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2016-09-12T15:35:13Z sjl: it mostly works but just needs a bunch more time to polish something up, and lately I've chosen getting things done over yak-shaving for the dev environment
2016-09-12T15:35:19Z sjl: slimv works okayish too though
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2016-09-12T15:40:25Z dunderproto: sjl: thanks for sharing...maybe I will give it a shot
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2016-09-12T16:42:57Z knobo: I have tested it here: https://github.com/knobo/bknr-datastore/tree/debug-xml-import_.,kjhgfre32e1||||||||qwertyuiopå¨'
2016-09-12T16:43:22Z knobo: sorry.... The kid was playing with my keyboard
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2016-09-12T16:46:38Z otwieracz: :)
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2016-09-12T16:47:27Z otwieracz: knobo: teach your kid some parenthesis
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2016-09-12T16:51:58Z maddix: Does anyone here use newlisp and if so, is there a function to join path names with the proper slash?
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2016-09-12T16:56:57Z pierpa: I don't, but IIRC there's a newlisp channel
2016-09-12T16:57:50Z pierpa: (as there's a specific channel for everything in the universe)
2016-09-12T16:58:37Z pierpa: ok, there's nobody there.
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2016-09-12T17:02:51Z maddix: Yeah, I checked there first
2016-09-12T17:03:13Z maddix: I can't find anything premade so I'll just roll a function myself
2016-09-12T17:03:50Z pierpa: why do you like newlisp, btw?
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2016-09-12T17:09:40Z maddix: I started working through Practical Common Lisp and found it confusing as to which eq or set function to use. I then found newlisp and liked how simple and straight forward the functions were.
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2016-09-12T17:10:02Z maddix: I'm really new to lisp in general
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2016-09-12T17:12:28Z prole: Hie, i have a little noob question: Do something like (subseq seq start end) exist for lists?
2016-09-12T17:12:53Z phoe: prole: SUBSEQ works on lists.
2016-09-12T17:13:03Z prole: phoe: thanks a lot
2016-09-12T17:13:12Z phoe: It works on sequences, which basically means lists and vectors.
2016-09-12T17:13:16Z phoe: clhs subseq
2016-09-12T17:13:16Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_subseq.htm
2016-09-12T17:13:20Z phoe: clhs sequence
2016-09-12T17:13:20Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_seq.htm
2016-09-12T17:13:37Z pierpa: maddix: ok
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2016-09-12T17:14:15Z prole: o ok; I thought that list were not sequence
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2016-09-12T17:36:17Z maddix: Incase anyone was ineterested [https://gist.github.com/Maddix/2d59d03cdf7dfa0053383f2d6ca86547] - Turned out to be a lot easier then I first thought
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2016-09-12T17:38:47Z pierpa: why {\} vs "/"?
2016-09-12T17:38:55Z prole: there is a whole chapter in PCL about path... Made me wanting to throw up
2016-09-12T17:39:10Z prole: even if I know that someday I'll have to come back to it
2016-09-12T17:39:52Z pierpa: OTOH it's well worth to learn how paths work in CL
2016-09-12T17:40:09Z pierpa: everything else will look stone age in comparison
2016-09-12T17:40:31Z prole: haha it certainly looks very complete
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2016-09-12T17:45:45Z dptd: Hello there, have anyone tried to write Slack bot in Common Lisp? I am trying to find some examples and I am... stuck. Nothing from the github works for me. :(
2016-09-12T17:46:21Z dptd: I was able to post something as a bot but I cannot figure how can I "read" or "listen" channel.
2016-09-12T17:46:45Z maddix: pierpa: newlisp is a little odd in how it handles strings. "" {} [text] [/text] are all valid string syntax. The difference is that "" and {} can't have more then 4000 chars.
2016-09-12T17:47:42Z maddix: pierpa: I just chose to do {\} instead of "\" since the backslash is an escape character.
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2016-09-12T17:49:26Z dptd: maddix: I belive I wrote my question in the middle of your conversation - sorry for that, just joined.
2016-09-12T17:50:23Z pierpa: maddix: ok. ty
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2016-09-12T17:51:45Z maddix: dptd: No worries. :D
2016-09-12T17:51:48Z pierpa: dptd: it's normal to interleave conversations. Don't worry.
2016-09-12T17:54:49Z dptd: maddix: pierpa: Thanks. :) Getting back to my problem - there is a package in quicklisp called "slack-client". However it uses roswell and after following steps from the README it simply fails the compilation process on static-vectors package. I really cannot find anything more and I already spent few days on that.
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2016-09-12T17:58:45Z dptd: I believe I could run in some async infinite loop functions which will read messages in channel since my last "read" and parse it for some keywords / commands which I will define. However I am not sure if it is the best approach. I am reading Slack API right now and I see that there is a way to mark "read cursor" in a channel (based on the timestamp) so probably I could use that for fetching new chunk of messages since my last
2016-09-12T17:58:45Z dptd: "read". Does it make any sense?
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2016-09-12T18:02:28Z fe[nl]ix: dptd: how does it fail compilation on static-vectors ?
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2016-09-12T18:18:11Z dptd: ; caught ERROR:
2016-09-12T18:18:11Z dptd: ;   illegal function call
2016-09-12T18:18:11Z dptd:  
2016-09-12T18:18:11Z dptd: ;     ((UIOP/OS:OS-UNIX-P) NIL)
2016-09-12T18:18:14Z dptd: ;
2016-09-12T18:18:17Z dptd: ; caught ERROR:
2016-09-12T18:18:20Z dptd: ;   illegal function call
2016-09-12T18:18:23Z dptd:  
2016-09-12T18:18:26Z dptd: ;     ((UIOP/OS:OS-WINDOWS-P) "exe")
2016-09-12T18:18:29Z dptd: ;
2016-09-12T18:18:32Z dptd: ; caught ERROR:
2016-09-12T18:18:37Z dptd: ;   illegal function call
2016-09-12T18:18:37Z dptd: Unhandled LOAD-SYSTEM-DEFINITION-ERROR: Error while trying to load definition for system static-vectors from pathname /Users/dptd/.roswell/lisp/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/static-vectors-1.6/static-vectors.asd: COMPILE-FILE-ERROR while compiling #<CL-SOURCE-FILE "cffi-toolchain" "toolchain" "asdf-compat">
2016-09-12T18:18:43Z dptd: Something like that, there are plenty of such errors for different operating systems.
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2016-09-12T18:22:29Z Xach: that rings a bell
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2016-09-12T18:57:32Z pipping: old issue is old
2016-09-12T18:57:50Z ritschmaster: dptd: looks like the story of my life
2016-09-12T18:57:51Z pipping: issue with old asdf/uiop which lacks os-cond
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2016-09-12T18:58:52Z pipping: I think asdf 3.1.5 was the first version that had it, and if you're on sbcl, 1.2.15 was the first version that shipped that
2016-09-12T18:59:32Z pipping: also, the issue's been fixed upstream by replacing os-cond with cond but quicklisp hasn't picked it up yet iirc
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2016-09-12T19:01:18Z fe[nl]ix: ok, I'll make a new release and switch static-vectors to github releases
2016-09-12T19:01:31Z pipping: madbub reported essentially the same issue 7 days ago: http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/2016-09/lisp-2016.09.05.txt
2016-09-12T19:02:58Z dptd: thanks guys :)
2016-09-12T19:03:30Z ritschmaster: Is there a good tutorial on how to build a lisp application on top of existing C++ classes?
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2016-09-12T19:04:11Z shka: ritschmaster: i can give you a super short tutorial
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2016-09-12T19:04:20Z shka: because it is not that complicated, really
2016-09-12T19:04:55Z shka: basicly, you need to have bridge made of extern C
2016-09-12T19:05:08Z shka: you can do it manually but it quickly becomes boring
2016-09-12T19:05:18Z shka: so instead, you may want to use SWIG
2016-09-12T19:05:36Z shka: when this is done, you may use your code as it would be your good old C
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2016-09-12T19:05:57Z shka: basicly, that's it
2016-09-12T19:06:07Z pipping: last I tried to use it, SWIG was quite the PITA, though
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2016-09-12T19:06:29Z shka: it is
2016-09-12T19:06:39Z shka: but unless you have very simple api to wrap
2016-09-12T19:06:45Z pipping: because it did all the C++ parsing on its own, which, for anything other than maybe C++98, is far too hard.
2016-09-12T19:06:46Z shka: doing it manually is even more PITA
2016-09-12T19:07:00Z shka: nah
2016-09-12T19:07:10Z shka: i'm using swig at work to make python bindings
2016-09-12T19:07:15Z shka: it is not that bad
2016-09-12T19:07:19Z pipping: so that you'll end up in a situation where clang++ will happily compile your shiny C++17 code but SWIG will just die on it
2016-09-12T19:07:20Z shka: sometimes it is weird
2016-09-12T19:07:25Z shka: but overall does the trick
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2016-09-12T19:08:12Z shka: pipping: C++17 in api is a horrible, horrible idea
2016-09-12T19:08:29Z shka: so that's not even such a issue
2016-09-12T19:08:48Z fe[nl]ix: Xach: what's the preferred way to send changes to QL source.txt ?
2016-09-12T19:08:49Z pipping: C++ is like wine. It gets better every year.
2016-09-12T19:09:18Z shka: pipping: i disagree
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2016-09-12T19:10:02Z dlowe: C++ is like a barrel of ruined wine that someone keeps pouring new wine into every year, hoping it will transform this way into new wine.
2016-09-12T19:10:29Z dlowe: and hey, if you only taste off the top, it's not so bad
2016-09-12T19:10:45Z shka: i disagree with that as well
2016-09-12T19:11:04Z shka: those changes may seem to be all cool
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2016-09-12T19:11:21Z shka: but did anybody ACTUALLY tried to use those new features?
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2016-09-12T19:11:29Z dlowe: yeah, they're not so bad.
2016-09-12T19:11:53Z pipping: shka: Absolutely. Constantly doing it.
2016-09-12T19:12:00Z shka: cool
2016-09-12T19:12:04Z shka: same here
2016-09-12T19:12:20Z shka: i get compilation errors longer than my source code :D
2016-09-12T19:13:00Z shka: amazingly, it is often easier and more productive to stick with older features
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2016-09-12T19:13:25Z shka: and this tells a lot about those "improvements"
2016-09-12T19:13:51Z pipping: Okay, I've just noticed again this is #lisp.
2016-09-12T19:13:54Z pipping shuts up.
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2016-09-12T19:16:02Z dptd: shka:I have been working in Nokia and Credit-Suisse and I can tell you that modern C++ (C++11 to be specific) is being used in such corporations. And what can I say - auto, lambda, smart pointers and move semantics are awesome.
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2016-09-12T19:16:31Z dlowe: I would say "over-complicated."
2016-09-12T19:16:43Z shka: dlowe: +1
2016-09-12T19:16:55Z shka: and don't let me start on variadic templates
2016-09-12T19:17:01Z shka: or enable_if syntax
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2016-09-12T19:21:26Z dptd: dlowe: You really think "auto begin = myMap.begin();" is "over-complicated" comparing to "std::unordered_map<std::string, std::pair<std::string, int>>::iterator begin = myMap.begin();"?
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2016-09-12T19:22:02Z dlowe: We're comparing different things. I'm comparing it to MAPHASH and wondering what all the fuss is.
2016-09-12T19:22:11Z raydeejay: xD
2016-09-12T19:22:19Z dptd: I thought we are comparing old C++ with the modern one. :)
2016-09-12T19:23:36Z foom: maphash is totally ungeneric, however.
2016-09-12T19:23:58Z foom: maybe you can compare to dylan's iteration protocol. :)
2016-09-12T19:24:25Z dim: it's easy enough to make it generic that we have efforts such as http://cl21.org
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2016-09-12T19:24:50Z dim: foom: or to the iterate lib? (https://common-lisp.net/project/iterate/)
2016-09-12T19:25:05Z foom: dim: you need to fix the syntax highlighter there.
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2016-09-12T19:25:20Z foom: (or whoever's project that is, if not yours)
2016-09-12T19:25:48Z foom: It's printed "Hello, ${name}\n" in red, as if it's all a string, but name is a symbol, not a string.
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2016-09-12T19:26:45Z dim: I'm not involved in either cl21 or iterate
2016-09-12T19:26:57Z dim: just pointing that CL allows for such initiatives easily
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2016-09-12T19:27:09Z dim: so that "ungeneric" is not a showstopper
2016-09-12T19:27:38Z ritschmaster: Ok thank you very much for that short tutorial :D
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2016-09-12T20:29:37Z des_consolado: hey howcome sbcl gives this warning when declaring this variable: http://pastebin.com/raw/vj6CuiPi ?
2016-09-12T20:29:58Z des_consolado: I found this question answered here saying something about DEFVAR being a top-level form: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9746933/undefined-variable-on-sbcl-not-on-clisp
2016-09-12T20:30:24Z dlowe: des_consolado: SETF/SETQ doesn't declare the variable.
2016-09-12T20:30:39Z dlowe: it works on sbcl, but you can't count on it on every implementation
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2016-09-12T20:32:06Z des_consolado: Hmmm what's the goto reference manual? I guess I should read about setf and setq and all this
2016-09-12T20:32:27Z dlowe: clhs setq
2016-09-12T20:32:28Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_setq.htm
2016-09-12T20:32:33Z dlowe: clhs setf
2016-09-12T20:32:33Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_setf_.htm
2016-09-12T20:32:38Z dlowe: clhs defvar
2016-09-12T20:32:38Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defpar.htm
2016-09-12T20:32:45Z des_consolado: ty!!
2016-09-12T20:33:05Z dlowe: np. There are also a lot of people to help out in #clnoobs
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2016-09-12T21:19:48Z larsen: I someone has time, I think I have some pretty basic questions. They're quite articulate, so I prepared a page for them http://stefanorodighiero.net/misc/question.html
2016-09-12T21:19:59Z larsen: Any comment is very appreciated, thank you
2016-09-12T21:20:58Z jasom: larsen: I'm looking now
2016-09-12T21:21:10Z larsen: jasom: thanks
2016-09-12T21:22:39Z pierpa: what are test names?  strings or symbols?
2016-09-12T21:22:55Z pierpa: ok, symbols
2016-09-12T21:23:04Z Grue`: you can have test collections based on package
2016-09-12T21:23:14Z jasom: larsen: if you are using asdf, you could use the asdf system for test collections.  IMO that's better than per-packae
2016-09-12T21:23:54Z Grue`: it might be non-trivial to figure out which asdf system a test belongs to
2016-09-12T21:24:02Z jasom: alternatively, you could group tests by the file they are defined in and use a flv to store the state.
2016-09-12T21:24:29Z larsen: what is a flv ?
2016-09-12T21:24:29Z PuercoPop: larsen: Using eql to test for equality won't prevent to define the tests twice if evaluation the file twice
2016-09-12T21:24:41Z jasom: larsen: file local variable
2016-09-12T21:24:49Z jasom: larsen: not part of the spec, but there are libraries for them
2016-09-12T21:25:11Z PuercoPop: ah, nvm
2016-09-12T21:25:21Z PuercoPop: you use the symbol as the key sorry
2016-09-12T21:26:18Z larsen: jasom: thank you
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2016-09-12T21:28:09Z larsen: what about the second question? The interface I had in mind was something like `(in-package #:my-test-package) (define-test 'first (= (+ 1 1) 2)) (define-test 'second (= (* 2 2) 4))` and so on
2016-09-12T21:28:13Z PuercoPop: larsen: why not funcall instead of eval for run? It would allow using closures to store seed data
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2016-09-12T21:28:36Z larsen: so I'm not sure how to make sure that invocations of define-test will put new tests in the right place
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2016-09-12T21:29:21Z larsen: PuercoPop: I think I tried funcall first, somehow botched, then went for eval basically because I was able to tame it :)
2016-09-12T21:30:13Z PuercoPop: larsen: just wrapping the ,@body in a lambda would be enough for funcall to work
2016-09-12T21:31:07Z PuercoPop:  :body (lambda () ,@body)
2016-09-12T21:31:33Z larsen: PuercoPop:noted, thank you
2016-09-12T21:31:35Z Grue`: maybe a better solution would be for define-test to declare a class, and create a defmethod for each class with body being the body of defmethod
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2016-09-12T21:32:22Z larsen: Grue`:interesting, I didn't think about that
2016-09-12T21:32:30Z Grue`: imagine the possibilities, tests inheritance and so on...
2016-09-12T21:33:45Z jasom: oh yeah, I would recommend against using eval.  I think a class for each test is an overkill though.
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2016-09-12T21:34:51Z jasom: I think having some concept of "suite" is good, whether it's a new class or a hash or whatnot.  If you require all tests for a given system be in the same package, then you can just use the value of *package* as the key for looking up what package to but a define-test in
2016-09-12T21:35:08Z PuercoPop: you can 'tie' the test sequence state to a package by storing it in the symbol-plist of the package. If you want to group tests by package, a better idea would be to have hash-table where the key is the package and the value the test sequence.
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2016-09-12T21:36:17Z jasom: If you want it more declarative, you could have a with-test-suite macro that binds a special for you and require all define-tests to be inside the body of a with-test-suite macro.
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2016-09-12T21:36:57Z jasom: the advantage of that is that with-test-suite could clear the state, so deleting tests from the source code would remove them from the image as well.
2016-09-12T21:36:57Z larsen: I like solutions based on current package or current file because I'd like a more implicit style in this case (I believe putting all tests of a suite in the same unit is natural)
2016-09-12T21:37:24Z jasom: fyi, going afk for an hour
2016-09-12T21:37:38Z larsen: ok, thank you for your help jasom
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2016-09-12T21:38:03Z larsen: (but I'll try the with-test-suite approach anyway)
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2016-09-12T21:42:52Z larsen: thank you all, I wander off
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2016-09-12T21:52:36Z dmitigr: hello
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2016-09-12T21:57:08Z prole: Hie, I have a noob question: A function return two values; and I want to use the first one returned. How do I do that? thanks!
2016-09-12T21:57:27Z raydeejay: do nothing
2016-09-12T21:57:48Z raydeejay: (print (function-that-returns-1-and-3)) ;;=> 1
2016-09-12T21:59:14Z prole: all right, the second one
2016-09-12T22:00:16Z raydeejay: clhs multiple-value-bind
2016-09-12T22:00:16Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_multip.htm
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2016-09-12T22:00:32Z prole: thanks
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2016-09-12T22:19:26Z pipping: clhs nth-value
2016-09-12T22:19:26Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_nth_va.htm
2016-09-12T22:19:44Z raydeejay: aahhh
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2016-09-12T22:23:17Z raydeejay wears an Ask Me About Lisp badge
2016-09-12T22:23:55Z raydeejay: ... too many #lisp channels at once
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2016-09-12T22:31:15Z jasom: clhs multiple-value-list
2016-09-12T22:31:15Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_mult_1.htm
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