2016-09-08T00:01:32Z jrm left #lisp
2016-09-08T00:07:25Z alienbot quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2016-09-08T00:09:09Z jokleinn quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5)
2016-09-08T00:12:37Z elimik31 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2016-09-08T00:13:02Z elimik31 joined #lisp
2016-09-08T00:15:53Z johnny_mck joined #lisp
2016-09-08T00:18:17Z abbe joined #lisp
2016-09-08T00:20:21Z johnny_mck quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs))
2016-09-08T00:21:01Z sjl joined #lisp
2016-09-08T00:22:44Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2016-09-08T00:34:06Z sjl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2016-09-08T00:34:22Z raydeejay: what's your preferred style for naming predicates? "lit" is easy, but "open" is not... "*p", "*-p", "*?", "is-*"... ? also, is there such a thing as a recommended style by the "community"?
2016-09-08T00:35:59Z oGMo: raydeejay: this channel is about common lisp, and p and -p are idiomatic
2016-09-08T00:36:41Z raydeejay: so, as personal preference, do you go with p or -p?
2016-09-08T00:36:56Z cromachina joined #lisp
2016-09-08T00:37:06Z oGMo: it's foo-bar-p or foop
2016-09-08T00:37:24Z raydeejay: ahhh, makes sense
2016-09-08T00:38:02Z Blukunfando quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2016-09-08T00:40:10Z zacts joined #lisp
2016-09-08T00:41:49Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp
2016-09-08T00:42:21Z abbe quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2016-09-08T00:43:23Z abbe joined #lisp
2016-09-08T00:43:29Z jokleinn joined #lisp
2016-09-08T00:43:45Z phoe: I noticed that I end up writing my unit tests without any frameworks at all - I create my objects using LET and do checks inside using ASSERT; no functions are defined at all. Upside - I can run all unit tests at once by merely compiling the file.
2016-09-08T00:45:36Z raydeejay: simple solutions fulfill simple needs
2016-09-08T00:45:51Z raydeejay: I try to have simple needs :)
2016-09-08T00:45:55Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_)
2016-09-08T00:46:59Z phoe: A possible side effect is, "if the tests fail, then something's broken - so why should this module get loaded?"
2016-09-08T00:47:43Z phoe: But then, only if one's in development mode, so cheap regression tests are wanted to be run as frequently as possible.
2016-09-08T00:48:21Z raydeejay: I don't do TDD, but I feel that tests are only useful when doing TDD
2016-09-08T00:48:39Z kvsari joined #lisp
2016-09-08T00:48:43Z raydeejay: compared with not doing it, the point is almost completely lost
2016-09-08T00:49:44Z phoe: Well - I'm doing TDD right now. And I like how it composes with purely functional programming.
2016-09-08T00:49:50Z manuel_ joined #lisp
2016-09-08T00:50:42Z raydeejay: if you think about it, and are willing to handwave about it a bitm they boil down to the same thing: you can say "it works"
2016-09-08T00:51:39Z raydeejay: at least, that's what I find more useful about them :)
2016-09-08T00:51:58Z phoe: My unit tests are written in the way of "test it in the REPL, then copy it over to a file and call it a unit test"
2016-09-08T00:52:38Z drdo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2016-09-08T00:53:17Z raydeejay: well, I've seen many things being called TDD ;-)
2016-09-08T00:54:00Z raydeejay: as far as I'm concerned, TDD begins with writing a test that fails
2016-09-08T00:54:39Z raydeejay: making it pass, loop until done
2016-09-08T00:55:01Z phoe: that's what I do
2016-09-08T00:55:11Z phoe: except the initial unit test appears in the REPL
2016-09-08T00:55:43Z raydeejay: why not :)
2016-09-08T00:56:00Z phoe: it's the luxury I have for free in Lisp.
2016-09-08T00:56:03Z phoe: the REPL, I mean.
2016-09-08T00:56:08Z elimik31 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2016-09-08T00:56:23Z raydeejay: a REPL is a good idea in any language
2016-09-08T00:56:48Z raydeejay: even the most obtuse programmer should be able to see that
2016-09-08T01:04:42Z abbe quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2016-09-08T01:06:19Z shdeng joined #lisp
2016-09-08T01:06:34Z abbe joined #lisp
2016-09-08T01:11:16Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2016-09-08T01:12:58Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp
2016-09-08T01:16:08Z mastokley joined #lisp
2016-09-08T01:16:12Z zacts quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2016-09-08T01:16:55Z lnostdal__ joined #lisp
2016-09-08T01:17:49Z zacts joined #lisp
2016-09-08T01:18:23Z asc232 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2016-09-08T01:22:43Z Josh2 quit (Quit: Josh2)
2016-09-08T01:28:25Z drdo joined #lisp
2016-09-08T01:29:02Z abbe quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2016-09-08T01:30:36Z zacts quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2016-09-08T01:30:46Z abbe joined #lisp
2016-09-08T01:31:03Z zacts joined #lisp
2016-09-08T01:38:33Z quasus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2016-09-08T01:41:19Z quasus joined #lisp
2016-09-08T01:44:00Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2016-09-08T01:46:34Z quasus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2016-09-08T01:47:09Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2016-09-08T01:48:21Z Dispatch joined #lisp
2016-09-08T01:50:18Z zacts quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2016-09-08T01:51:21Z zacts joined #lisp
2016-09-08T01:55:17Z abbe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2016-09-08T01:55:40Z abbe joined #lisp
2016-09-08T01:58:54Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp
2016-09-08T02:00:08Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2016-09-08T02:02:47Z space_otter joined #lisp
2016-09-08T02:05:22Z asc232 joined #lisp
2016-09-08T02:06:54Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_)
2016-09-08T02:07:14Z tmtwd joined #lisp
2016-09-08T02:10:29Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2016-09-08T02:11:07Z DGASAU joined #lisp
2016-09-08T02:19:04Z abbe quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2016-09-08T02:19:47Z abbe joined #lisp
2016-09-08T02:21:04Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2016-09-08T02:29:29Z zacts quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4)
2016-09-08T02:36:12Z eihli joined #lisp
2016-09-08T02:36:59Z pierpa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2016-09-08T02:42:16Z abbe quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2016-09-08T02:44:51Z dyelar joined #lisp
2016-09-08T02:45:43Z abbe joined #lisp
2016-09-08T02:45:51Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2016-09-08T02:48:34Z arescorpio joined #lisp
2016-09-08T02:53:21Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2016-09-08T02:55:51Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2016-09-08T02:55:59Z DGASAU joined #lisp
2016-09-08T02:57:32Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2016-09-08T02:57:46Z cibs quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2016-09-08T02:59:48Z robotoad quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
2016-09-08T02:59:51Z yeticry joined #lisp
2016-09-08T02:59:56Z cibs joined #lisp
2016-09-08T03:00:29Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2016-09-08T03:03:46Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2016-09-08T03:04:17Z DGASAU joined #lisp
2016-09-08T03:07:31Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2016-09-08T03:08:29Z DGASAU joined #lisp
2016-09-08T03:09:15Z abbe quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2016-09-08T03:10:00Z abbe joined #lisp
2016-09-08T03:11:37Z phoe: clhs member
2016-09-08T03:11:37Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_member.htm
2016-09-08T03:11:41Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp
2016-09-08T03:12:05Z zacts joined #lisp
2016-09-08T03:12:17Z phoe: What is the default :TEST for MEMBER?
2016-09-08T03:17:06Z Bike: default test is basically always eql
2016-09-08T03:18:02Z Bike: as per, i think,
2016-09-08T03:18:04Z Bike: clhs 17.2.1
2016-09-08T03:18:04Z specbot: Satisfying a Two-Argument Test: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/17_ba.htm
2016-09-08T03:18:34Z pillton: Yeah "If neither a :test nor a :test-not argument is supplied, it is as if a :test argument of #'eql was supplied."
2016-09-08T03:18:54Z pillton had trouble finding it.
2016-09-08T03:19:46Z stux|RC-only quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2016-09-08T03:20:19Z k3rn31 joined #lisp
2016-09-08T03:20:24Z Bike: it should be linked. you can get it from the glossary for "satisfies the test" but that's not linked either
2016-09-08T03:21:11Z stux|RC-only joined #lisp
2016-09-08T03:23:27Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2016-09-08T03:24:51Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving)
2016-09-08T03:25:24Z d4ryus joined #lisp
2016-09-08T03:26:28Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2016-09-08T03:27:14Z impulse quit (Quit: leaving)
2016-09-08T03:27:34Z impulse joined #lisp
2016-09-08T03:43:09Z BusFactor1 quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2016-09-08T03:52:05Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2016-09-08T03:55:01Z DavidGu joined #lisp
2016-09-08T03:55:46Z _sjs joined #lisp
2016-09-08T03:58:18Z ukari joined #lisp
2016-09-08T03:58:57Z harish joined #lisp
2016-09-08T03:58:58Z sudshekhar joined #lisp
2016-09-08T04:00:17Z tmtwd joined #lisp
2016-09-08T04:03:08Z robotoad joined #lisp
2016-09-08T04:04:02Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2016-09-08T04:05:31Z test1600 joined #lisp
2016-09-08T04:10:54Z phoe quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2016-09-08T04:16:54Z defaultxr joined #lisp
2016-09-08T04:18:05Z Dispatch quit
2016-09-08T04:18:19Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp
2016-09-08T04:21:08Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2016-09-08T04:21:16Z araujo__ quit (Quit: Leaving)
2016-09-08T04:21:18Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2016-09-08T04:21:24Z My_Hearing joined #lisp
2016-09-08T04:21:48Z eihli quit (Quit: eihli)
2016-09-08T04:23:47Z eihli joined #lisp
2016-09-08T04:31:05Z vlatkoB joined #lisp
2016-09-08T04:32:05Z eihli quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2016-09-08T04:37:54Z beach joined #lisp
2016-09-08T04:38:01Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2016-09-08T04:38:51Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2016-09-08T04:39:16Z DavidGu quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2016-09-08T04:42:05Z happy-dude quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2016-09-08T04:55:18Z emacsomancer joined #lisp
2016-09-08T04:57:42Z asc232 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2016-09-08T05:01:57Z shka_ joined #lisp
2016-09-08T05:02:33Z brandonz joined #lisp
2016-09-08T05:03:07Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp
2016-09-08T05:04:34Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp
2016-09-08T05:05:16Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2016-09-08T05:07:26Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2016-09-08T05:09:39Z emacsomancer quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2016-09-08T05:10:33Z asc232 joined #lisp
2016-09-08T05:10:36Z myrkraverk: I am trying to use cl-oauth to talk to twitter, but only ever get "Could not authenticate you." -- which is some catch-all error message according to forum posts there.  Is there a step I'm missing?
2016-09-08T05:11:36Z nzambe quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client)
2016-09-08T05:11:40Z myrkraverk: Based on the examples I've found online, I only need to make an authentication token with my access and consumer credentials, and I can use it to post to twitter.  But so far, no luck.
2016-09-08T05:12:26Z myrkraverk: In particular, I see no extra authentication step here: https://github.com/hanshuebner/planetwit/blob/master/planetwit.lisp#L53
2016-09-08T05:13:13Z myrkraverk: Btw, if I screw up my authentication tokens, I get a different error.
2016-09-08T05:13:39Z les quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2016-09-08T05:13:59Z les joined #lisp
2016-09-08T05:23:36Z lemoinem joined #lisp
2016-09-08T05:33:26Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2016-09-08T05:33:35Z stux|RC-only quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2016-09-08T05:36:08Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp
2016-09-08T05:36:22Z stux|RC-only joined #lisp
2016-09-08T05:38:17Z H4ns: myrkraverk: you need to register an application.  a personal token does not suffice, i think
2016-09-08T05:39:06Z myrkraverk: H4ns: what do you mean "register an application" -- I created the application myself, and am using the consumer and access tokens/secrets from that.
2016-09-08T05:40:25Z myrkraverk: I mean -- on the twitter website.
2016-09-08T05:42:24Z asc232 quit (Quit: Saliendo)
2016-09-08T05:42:35Z stux|RC-only quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
2016-09-08T05:42:39Z razzy89 joined #lisp
2016-09-08T05:42:56Z stux|RC-only joined #lisp
2016-09-08T05:46:43Z gingerale joined #lisp
2016-09-08T05:47:19Z zymurgy joined #lisp
2016-09-08T05:48:07Z fitzsim` joined #lisp
2016-09-08T05:48:10Z fitzsim quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2016-09-08T05:49:47Z mishoo joined #lisp
2016-09-08T05:50:46Z bocaneri joined #lisp
2016-09-08T05:51:31Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2016-09-08T05:52:09Z cross quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
2016-09-08T05:52:17Z akkad quit (Quit: Emacs must have died)
2016-09-08T05:53:54Z tmtwd joined #lisp
2016-09-08T05:58:32Z Velveeta_Chef_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2016-09-08T05:59:25Z fitzsim` quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2016-09-08T06:02:12Z Velveeta_Chef joined #lisp
2016-09-08T06:04:22Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2016-09-08T06:06:12Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam)
2016-09-08T06:07:26Z adolf_stalin quit (Quit: Leaving...)
2016-09-08T06:07:43Z jackdaniel: o/
2016-09-08T06:11:16Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp
2016-09-08T06:16:27Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2016-09-08T06:20:04Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2016-09-08T06:22:40Z robotoad quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2016-09-08T06:22:44Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp
2016-09-08T06:23:39Z flamebeard joined #lisp
2016-09-08T06:31:31Z pillton: \o
2016-09-08T06:32:57Z robotoad joined #lisp
2016-09-08T06:34:18Z pillton: Bike: Did you end up figuring out how to represent operators which return multiple values when inferring types?
2016-09-08T06:34:45Z Bike: i am not sure what you mean
2016-09-08T06:35:30Z Bike: i wrote in some stuff for values types but gave up on it because they're annoying and cleavir can't deal with them completely without me adding a bunch of ridiculous crap to cleavir
2016-09-08T06:37:16Z pillton: I can kind of see how it works when the number of values returned by an operator is fixed. I had trouble trying to represent things like VALUES-LIST.
2016-09-08T06:37:51Z Bike: well, that's where you need the complicated values types.
2016-09-08T06:38:12Z Bike: values-list is a (function (list) (values &rest t))
2016-09-08T06:38:32Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2016-09-08T06:38:58Z Bike: of course a lot about this is tricky, like that there's no actual way to specify "this form returns exactly two values" that isn't ridiculous, as far as i can discern
2016-09-08T06:39:01Z mastokley quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2016-09-08T06:40:49Z gravicappa joined #lisp
2016-09-08T06:40:53Z yeticry joined #lisp
2016-09-08T06:41:57Z DavidGu joined #lisp
2016-09-08T06:43:51Z pillton: But you can imagine things like (if predicate (values 1 2 3) (values "one" "two" "three" "four")).
2016-09-08T06:44:39Z Bike: (values a a a &optional string) where a is (or integer string) or whatever
2016-09-08T06:44:47Z Zhivago joined #lisp
2016-09-08T06:44:47Z Zhivago quit (Changing host)
2016-09-08T06:44:47Z Zhivago joined #lisp
2016-09-08T06:44:59Z pillton: But that is a supertype of the reality.
2016-09-08T06:45:32Z Bike: what, because it's integer instead of (eql 1)? is it important?
2016-09-08T06:45:36Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2016-09-08T06:45:52Z pillton: That would match (values 1 "two" "three").
2016-09-08T06:46:39Z Bike: you wanna parametrize some shit that's fine, you don't need values types for that to be useful, anyway, we got cons and such.
2016-09-08T06:47:16Z Bike: back when i was looking at this i did some grepping and i found one use of a values type with &optional that wasn't because of sbcl's convention in quicklisp. or maybe clasp sources, i mean whatevs
2016-09-08T06:47:24Z Bike: so i wasn't super concerned.
2016-09-08T06:47:59Z pillton: Fair enough.
2016-09-08T06:48:15Z Bike: it messes up the important thing anyway, which is the fixed value returns, you know, throwing em in registers instead of having a generic values location.
2016-09-08T06:48:50Z Bike: oh, fuck me, i just grepped quicklisp and what do i find? introspect-environment uses weird values types
2016-09-08T06:49:01Z pillton: Haha
2016-09-08T06:49:24Z Zhivago: The other important thing being to avoid consing. :)
2016-09-08T06:49:44Z Bike: well yes, but t hat's less immediately relevant to the discussion
2016-09-08T06:50:01Z Zhivago: Well, you did mention cons as an alternative. :)
2016-09-08T06:50:12Z ben_vulpes joined #lisp
2016-09-08T06:50:25Z ben_vulpes: what does a % in a slot's name mean when rendered with describe?
2016-09-08T06:50:36Z Bike: usually indicates being internal
2016-09-08T06:50:37Z Zhivago: Magic.
2016-09-08T06:50:52Z jackdaniel: ben_vulpes: it's name convention, programmer names his slots %bah, when he wants to mark them as internal/dangerous etc
2016-09-08T06:51:07Z Zhivago: %% means More magic.
2016-09-08T06:51:08Z jackdaniel: so basically: you didn't see anything, keep scrolling
2016-09-08T06:51:38Z Bike: ah. i put it in i-e because of sbcl's typeyness. good good.
2016-09-08T06:52:02Z ben_vulpes: jackdaniel: thanks
2016-09-08T06:52:06Z Velveeta_Chef quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2016-09-08T06:52:08Z jackdaniel: sure
2016-09-08T06:53:59Z jasom: raydeejay: was that a typo "Tests are only useful when doing TDD"?
2016-09-08T06:54:22Z Bike: pillton: a big thing that beach had that i was less clear on my stumbling attempts is that representing types as exactly as possible doesn't necessarily help - especially with lisp's russelldestroyed system. makes more sense to set goals based on what the compiler can actually do
2016-09-08T06:55:01Z raydeejay: jasom: were you waiting for me to wake up? xD
2016-09-08T06:55:11Z raydeejay: where's the presumed typo?
2016-09-08T06:55:22Z jasom: I was expecting "aren't only useful"
2016-09-08T06:55:36Z jasom: since I've only dabbled with TDD, but tests are incredibly useful when not doing TDD
2016-09-08T06:56:06Z pillton: Bike: russelldestroyed?
2016-09-08T06:56:20Z Bike: barbers and all
2016-09-08T06:56:32Z Bike: it's the halting problem in the limit and such
2016-09-08T06:57:23Z jasom: All software is tested either informally or formally.  Even just "run the program and poke around in it a bit before pushing the change out" is an informal integration test.  I
2016-09-08T06:59:10Z jasom: I'm still not sold on the usefulness of unit tests, for certain definitions of "unit."  I find that at very fine-grained definitions of "unit" the test becomes obsolete when the unit itself is changed, and if it's going to become obsolete every time the unit is changed, then all the test failing tells you is "this unit changed"
2016-09-08T06:59:36Z raydeejay: then the test is wrong :D
2016-09-08T07:00:41Z Bike: need better unit tests for the unit tests
2016-09-08T07:01:09Z raydeejay: you should have started by writing the tests of the tests of the tests!!! \\o
2016-09-08T07:01:27Z jackdaniel: what about the tests testing your tests tests?
2016-09-08T07:01:32Z pillton: jasom: I write a lot of tests in order to help my future self.
2016-09-08T07:02:27Z pillton: jasom: There is also a social aspect to it as well. If I make this change to this project, how much does it break?
2016-09-08T07:03:07Z pillton: jasom: There are also portability concerns.
2016-09-08T07:03:24Z jasom: pillton: I'm completely sold on the usefulness of automated integration tests.
2016-09-08T07:03:53Z jasom: Or functional tests or whatever you want to call "Does the product as a whole behave as expected"
2016-09-08T07:03:59Z pillton: Oh..I'm just practising my preaching to the converted.
2016-09-08T07:04:31Z DavidGu quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2016-09-08T07:04:49Z beach: ben_vulpes: It is to avoid using the same slot name as the accessor (so that client code can't use slot-value) and to avoid having to come up with a completely unrelated name.
2016-09-08T07:05:03Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2016-09-08T07:05:30Z jasom: It's the specific test-first, test units in isolation TDD that I'm not sold on.  I go back and forth between "I'm missing something important" and "The TDD people are missing somethign important" My younger self was very much with the latter; as I got older and more humble I went to the former.  As I read up as much as I could on TDD I'm slowly moving back towards the latter again.
2016-09-08T07:06:01Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2016-09-08T07:06:57Z pillton: Right. Personally, I'm in favour of documentation driven development.
2016-09-08T07:06:58Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp
2016-09-08T07:07:00Z Velveeta_Chef joined #lisp
2016-09-08T07:07:54Z raydeejay: this sounds quite reasonable to me https://8thlight.com/blog/uncle-bob/2013/05/27/TransformationPriorityAndSorting.html
2016-09-08T07:08:02Z beach: ben_vulpes: This convention acknowledges that the only purpose of a slot name is to make sure that the same slot is obtained in subclasses and when a class is redefined.  All other uses go through an accessor.
2016-09-08T07:08:21Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2016-09-08T07:08:24Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp
2016-09-08T07:08:43Z jasom: In particular the whole claim of "Unit tests help with refactoring" makes me think I'm missing something, since, to me, any non-trivial (i.e. not just rename functions) refactoring involves changing the interface of at least one unit, so a proper refactoring will cause multiple tests to fail.
2016-09-08T07:09:55Z pillton: jasom: Sure.
2016-09-08T07:10:21Z Harag joined #lisp
2016-09-08T07:10:47Z pillton: jasom: If you treat programming as a "learning more about the problem being solved" exercise, then those things are bound to happen.
2016-09-08T07:11:06Z beach: jasom: In the TDD documentation I have read, the tests are not unit tests, but tests for much higher-level functionality.
2016-09-08T07:11:27Z jasom: raydeejay: and in other articles Uncle Bob says "TDD is not an algorithm design tool" which seems to directly contradict that article.
2016-09-08T07:11:39Z beach: i.e., user-visible features.
2016-09-08T07:12:09Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2016-09-08T07:12:33Z jasom: beach: that's very different from the TDD stuff I've encountered.  I'm all for testing user-visible features (which for a library to be used by others would be the documented API, naturally)
2016-09-08T07:12:46Z ben_vulpes: beach: thank you!
2016-09-08T07:15:58Z raydeejay: jasom: I don't think that anything is "the ultimate universal tool", but that kind of thing seems at the very least interesting to me
2016-09-08T07:16:15Z raydeejay: (insert commas)
2016-09-08T07:16:47Z Glitchy: jasom: I don't tend to test implementation details. As long as a) every potential branch of code is tested, b) tested inputs produce expected outputs I'm happy with the tests.
2016-09-08T07:17:24Z Glitchy: How the code which takes us from a to b works is beyond the remit of testing (and as you stated, testing it would make refactoring harder & not easier).
2016-09-08T07:18:47Z harish joined #lisp
2016-09-08T07:20:24Z shka joined #lisp
2016-09-08T07:22:32Z prole joined #lisp
2016-09-08T07:25:09Z phoe joined #lisp
2016-09-08T07:25:36Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp
2016-09-08T07:32:25Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2016-09-08T07:32:52Z przl joined #lisp
2016-09-08T07:35:08Z test1600_ joined #lisp
2016-09-08T07:36:58Z zacts quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4)
2016-09-08T07:37:27Z zacts joined #lisp
2016-09-08T07:38:46Z test1600 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2016-09-08T07:39:15Z ben_vulpes left #lisp
2016-09-08T07:41:19Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2016-09-08T07:43:05Z can3p joined #lisp
2016-09-08T07:46:45Z ovenpasta joined #lisp
2016-09-08T07:50:42Z phoe quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2016-09-08T07:54:16Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2016-09-08T07:55:02Z angavrilov joined #lisp
2016-09-08T07:56:26Z hhdave joined #lisp
2016-09-08T07:56:37Z mishoo joined #lisp
2016-09-08T07:58:04Z hhdave_ joined #lisp
2016-09-08T08:01:22Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2016-09-08T08:01:22Z hhdave_ is now known as hhdave
2016-09-08T08:09:55Z Anselmo quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5)
2016-09-08T08:10:06Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2016-09-08T08:13:27Z scymtym joined #lisp
2016-09-08T08:16:21Z tos-1 joined #lisp
2016-09-08T08:19:28Z _main_ joined #lisp
2016-09-08T08:21:20Z __main__ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2016-09-08T08:23:19Z _main_ is now known as __main__
2016-09-08T08:24:01Z My_Hearing is now known as Mon_Ouie
2016-09-08T08:28:43Z razzy89 quit (Quit: razzy89)
2016-09-08T08:28:55Z bogdanm joined #lisp
2016-09-08T08:30:54Z space_otter quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2016-09-08T08:31:58Z Bike quit (Quit: leaving)
2016-09-08T08:32:35Z stardiviner joined #lisp
2016-09-08T08:32:51Z __main__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2016-09-08T08:33:31Z _main_ joined #lisp
2016-09-08T08:34:26Z rudolfochrist joined #lisp
2016-09-08T08:35:06Z nikki93 joined #lisp
2016-09-08T08:37:24Z _main_ is now known as __main__
2016-09-08T08:39:24Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp
2016-09-08T08:40:04Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2016-09-08T08:40:35Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2016-09-08T08:41:14Z al-damiri joined #lisp
2016-09-08T08:46:03Z erguven joined #lisp
2016-09-08T08:46:42Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2016-09-08T08:48:21Z SumoSudo joined #lisp
2016-09-08T08:48:27Z shka joined #lisp
2016-09-08T08:53:20Z shirokage joined #lisp
2016-09-08T08:54:00Z shirokage left #lisp
2016-09-08T08:54:58Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp
2016-09-08T09:02:03Z przl joined #lisp
2016-09-08T09:03:25Z sh1r0 joined #lisp
2016-09-08T09:04:30Z sh1r0 quit (Client Quit)
2016-09-08T09:09:01Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2016-09-08T09:09:23Z hhdave quit (Quit: hhdave)
2016-09-08T09:09:32Z hhdave joined #lisp
2016-09-08T09:12:45Z harish quit (Quit: Leaving)
2016-09-08T09:12:47Z defaultxr joined #lisp
2016-09-08T09:13:05Z harish joined #lisp
2016-09-08T09:14:49Z beach left #lisp
2016-09-08T09:15:52Z freehck quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2016-09-08T09:20:20Z zacharias joined #lisp
2016-09-08T09:24:55Z grindhold_ is now known as grindhold
2016-09-08T09:29:52Z kvsari quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2016-09-08T09:33:54Z araujo joined #lisp
2016-09-08T09:33:54Z araujo quit (Changing host)
2016-09-08T09:33:54Z araujo joined #lisp
2016-09-08T09:34:30Z araujo quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
2016-09-08T09:34:35Z Grue`` joined #lisp
2016-09-08T09:34:53Z razzy89 joined #lisp
2016-09-08T09:35:26Z araujo joined #lisp
2016-09-08T09:36:55Z araujo quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
2016-09-08T09:37:43Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2016-09-08T09:37:48Z davsebamse quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2016-09-08T09:37:49Z araujo joined #lisp
2016-09-08T09:43:25Z przl_ joined #lisp
2016-09-08T09:44:24Z _sjs joined #lisp
2016-09-08T09:44:26Z myrkraverk: What is the usual method to get a unix timestamp in CL?
2016-09-08T09:44:45Z myrkraverk: Is there a "built-in" function to convert from universal time?
2016-09-08T09:44:49Z myrkraverk: Or do I have to roll my own?
2016-09-08T09:44:54Z Grue``: http://lisptips.com/post/11649360174/the-common-lisp-and-unix-epochs
2016-09-08T09:45:24Z myrkraverk: Grue``: thanks, my ddg didn't dig that up (yet).
2016-09-08T09:45:26Z Grue``: basically CL universal time and unix time differ by a constant
2016-09-08T09:46:15Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2016-09-08T09:46:59Z myrkraverk: Exactly.
2016-09-08T09:48:42Z razzy89 left #lisp
2016-09-08T09:48:56Z razzy89 joined #lisp
2016-09-08T09:49:07Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2016-09-08T09:49:20Z razzy89 left #lisp
2016-09-08T09:49:26Z razzy89 joined #lisp
2016-09-08T09:53:17Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp
2016-09-08T09:55:05Z H4ns: myrkraverk: then i don't have any additional idea (regarding twitter), sorry
2016-09-08T09:55:41Z davsebamse joined #lisp
2016-09-08T09:55:53Z myrkraverk: H4ns: no worries.  I'm currently playing at making my own (limited) oauth implementation, to see how far that gets me.
2016-09-08T09:56:33Z Xof quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2016-09-08T09:58:04Z rudolfochrist quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2016-09-08T10:02:39Z krasnal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2016-09-08T10:03:16Z Seteeri joined #lisp
2016-09-08T10:04:07Z chris_l joined #lisp
2016-09-08T10:09:36Z m00natic joined #lisp
2016-09-08T10:11:08Z quazimodo joined #lisp
2016-09-08T10:11:54Z myrkraverk: Is there a simple way to hex encode a byte vector?  Such as with format directly?
2016-09-08T10:13:39Z myrkraverk: Apparently, I can't use ~{ on vectors.
2016-09-08T10:13:47Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp
2016-09-08T10:14:17Z jackdaniel: myrkraverk: you mean print? set *print-base* to 16
2016-09-08T10:14:24Z jackdaniel: and it will be printed in hex
2016-09-08T10:14:33Z jackdaniel: (numbers that is)
2016-09-08T10:14:55Z myrkraverk: Hmm, yeah -- I just want to print a vector of bytes in as a string of hex.
2016-09-08T10:15:06Z myrkraverk: so ~x is what I wanted to use.
2016-09-08T10:15:26Z krasnal joined #lisp
2016-09-08T10:15:28Z ukari joined #lisp
2016-09-08T10:16:04Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2016-09-08T10:17:15Z jackdaniel: if you're not concerned with a speed, you may coerce vector to list and use ~{
2016-09-08T10:17:59Z tfb joined #lisp
2016-09-08T10:18:44Z myrkraverk: *nod*
2016-09-08T10:19:22Z Grue``: I'd probably use (with-output-to-string ... (loop ...))
2016-09-08T10:19:47Z Grue``: though there's probably a more clever way
2016-09-08T10:20:55Z Grue``: something like MAPCAN for vectors would've been nice
2016-09-08T10:22:18Z can3p quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2016-09-08T10:24:14Z myrkraverk: Yeah, thought with-output-to-string works nicely for me right now.
2016-09-08T10:25:43Z myrkraverk: Btw, is there a way to control the case of format's ~x?
2016-09-08T10:30:00Z _death: clhs ~(
2016-09-08T10:30:00Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cha.htm
2016-09-08T10:33:47Z phoe joined #lisp
2016-09-08T10:35:24Z myrkraverk: thank you specbot
2016-09-08T10:38:41Z jackdaniel: specbot is a bot, thank _death ;)
2016-09-08T10:38:49Z Xof joined #lisp
2016-09-08T10:41:37Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2016-09-08T10:41:58Z EvW joined #lisp
2016-09-08T10:42:32Z AntiSpamMeta quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2016-09-08T10:42:46Z AntiSpamMeta joined #lisp
2016-09-08T10:45:15Z _sjs joined #lisp
2016-09-08T10:47:02Z nikki93 joined #lisp
2016-09-08T10:48:16Z z3r0_ joined #lisp
2016-09-08T10:48:49Z Trystam is now known as Tristam
2016-09-08T10:50:00Z pierpa joined #lisp
2016-09-08T10:50:08Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2016-09-08T10:51:29Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2016-09-08T10:53:16Z rudolfochrist joined #lisp
2016-09-08T10:54:04Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp
2016-09-08T10:55:23Z ukari joined #lisp
2016-09-08T10:55:58Z mathi_aihtam quit (Client Quit)
2016-09-08T10:58:39Z rudolfochrist quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2016-09-08T11:00:09Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2016-09-08T11:00:34Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2016-09-08T11:01:23Z can3p joined #lisp
2016-09-08T11:02:01Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2016-09-08T11:02:48Z aries_liuxueyang joined #lisp
2016-09-08T11:03:53Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2016-09-08T11:08:53Z nikki93 joined #lisp
2016-09-08T11:09:23Z z3r0_ quit (Quit: Leaving)
2016-09-08T11:14:49Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp
2016-09-08T11:15:58Z chu quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1)
2016-09-08T11:17:25Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2016-09-08T11:18:54Z quazimodo joined #lisp
2016-09-08T11:23:52Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp
2016-09-08T11:28:09Z knicklux joined #lisp
2016-09-08T11:30:19Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2016-09-08T11:31:35Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp
2016-09-08T11:32:11Z shrdlu68: Hi guys.
2016-09-08T11:32:19Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2016-09-08T11:32:24Z jackdaniel: o/
2016-09-08T11:33:00Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2016-09-08T11:33:11Z EvW joined #lisp
2016-09-08T11:35:03Z krasnal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2016-09-08T11:35:25Z shrdlu68: The guys over at #sbcl suggested I use sb-ext:native-namestring to avoid some conditions I was getting with filenames like [foo or bar.1.baz
2016-09-08T11:37:20Z shrdlu68: This works fine, except it does not escape the special characters, so I have to write a function to do that.
2016-09-08T11:38:42Z k3rn31 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2016-09-08T11:39:22Z shdeng quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2016-09-08T11:40:26Z shrdlu68: I liked how `namestring` escapes paths, like (namestring (make-pathname :directory "/foo/bar" :name "[ba'z")) => "//foo/bar/\\[ba'z"
2016-09-08T11:41:34Z shrdlu68: Is there no consistent, portable way to work with paths? What do you guys do?
2016-09-08T11:42:00Z k3rn31 joined #lisp
2016-09-08T11:42:59Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2016-09-08T11:43:07Z jackdaniel: (probe-file "~/[ba'z") ; --> #P"/home/jack/[ba'z"
2016-09-08T11:44:02Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2016-09-08T11:44:12Z dddddd joined #lisp
2016-09-08T11:44:30Z gniourf joined #lisp
2016-09-08T11:44:59Z Grue``: shrdlu68: there are libraries like cl-fad, uiop that are pretty portable
2016-09-08T11:45:43Z scymtym: shrdlu68: for portability, you could try UIOP:NATIVE-NAMESTRING and UIOP:PARSE-NATIVE-NAMESTRING. whether their behavior is consistent depends on your criteria
2016-09-08T11:46:35Z quazimodo joined #lisp
2016-09-08T11:48:24Z nikki93 joined #lisp
2016-09-08T11:50:21Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2016-09-08T11:51:29Z tos-1 quit (Quit: leaving)
2016-09-08T11:53:03Z EvW joined #lisp
2016-09-08T11:53:59Z rudolfochrist joined #lisp
2016-09-08T11:54:34Z shrdlu68: Grue``: cl-fad uses SBCL's namestring, which invokes conditions on files with some special characters.
2016-09-08T11:55:00Z Grue``: well, uiop is probably better tested
2016-09-08T11:56:35Z shrdlu68: Yep, it at least doesn't invoke conditions, but I'll have to do the escaping myself, which I was hoping there'd be some automagick way to do.
2016-09-08T11:57:35Z Blukunfando joined #lisp
2016-09-08T11:57:46Z PosterdatiMobile joined #lisp
2016-09-08T11:57:49Z _PosterdatiMobil joined #lisp
2016-09-08T11:57:52Z manuel_ joined #lisp
2016-09-08T11:58:55Z rudolfochrist quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2016-09-08T12:01:37Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2016-09-08T12:05:35Z drdo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2016-09-08T12:06:03Z bogdanm quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2016-09-08T12:07:38Z bogdanm joined #lisp
2016-09-08T12:09:51Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2016-09-08T12:10:07Z robotoad quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2016-09-08T12:10:16Z sjl joined #lisp
2016-09-08T12:11:35Z Seteeri quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2016-09-08T12:13:51Z nikki93 joined #lisp
2016-09-08T12:15:32Z stardiviner quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2016-09-08T12:16:42Z stardiviner joined #lisp
2016-09-08T12:19:14Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2016-09-08T12:22:43Z myrkraverk: IMO, then the proper way would probably to "fix" SBCL.
2016-09-08T12:23:00Z myrkraverk: But that might be outside the scope of your project.
2016-09-08T12:23:21Z _PosterdatiMobil quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2016-09-08T12:23:36Z PosterdatiMobile quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2016-09-08T12:23:57Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2016-09-08T12:25:29Z sjl quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3)
2016-09-08T12:26:09Z sjl joined #lisp
2016-09-08T12:29:33Z sjl quit (Client Quit)
2016-09-08T12:29:48Z nikki93 joined #lisp
2016-09-08T12:30:38Z sjl joined #lisp
2016-09-08T12:31:18Z madbub joined #lisp
2016-09-08T12:31:48Z shrdlu68: myrkraverk: I may take a look at it once I have some free time. About time I started contributing to anyway :)
2016-09-08T12:31:59Z myrkraverk: C:
2016-09-08T12:33:21Z _sjs joined #lisp
2016-09-08T12:33:25Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2016-09-08T12:33:34Z Harag joined #lisp
2016-09-08T12:35:19Z stanislav joined #lisp
2016-09-08T12:35:33Z Josh_2 joined #lisp
2016-09-08T12:35:50Z stanislav is now known as quasus
2016-09-08T12:37:28Z drdo joined #lisp
2016-09-08T12:38:05Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2016-09-08T12:39:09Z nzambe joined #lisp
2016-09-08T12:46:47Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_)
2016-09-08T12:50:43Z manuel_ joined #lisp
2016-09-08T12:51:56Z ggole joined #lisp
2016-09-08T13:03:29Z DavidGu joined #lisp
2016-09-08T13:03:35Z Harag1 joined #lisp
2016-09-08T13:05:12Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2016-09-08T13:05:12Z Harag1 is now known as Harag
2016-09-08T13:10:40Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2016-09-08T13:10:53Z LiamH joined #lisp
2016-09-08T13:11:34Z Looy joined #lisp
2016-09-08T13:13:48Z nikki93 joined #lisp
2016-09-08T13:15:29Z nalik joined #lisp
2016-09-08T13:15:58Z fitzsim joined #lisp
2016-09-08T13:16:25Z Looy quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de)
2016-09-08T13:19:11Z phoe: http://i.imgur.com/boYlb91.png Lisp is the best BASIC simulator.'
2016-09-08T13:19:14Z DavidGu quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2016-09-08T13:20:48Z zacharias joined #lisp
2016-09-08T13:23:52Z Grue`` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2016-09-08T13:28:15Z myrkraverk: C:
2016-09-08T13:31:04Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2016-09-08T13:35:18Z tallbikeguy joined #lisp
2016-09-08T13:37:01Z madalu joined #lisp
2016-09-08T13:43:08Z Grue`` joined #lisp
2016-09-08T13:44:12Z madalu quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2016-09-08T13:47:52Z sudshekhar quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2016-09-08T13:52:01Z EvW joined #lisp
2016-09-08T13:56:37Z can3p quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2016-09-08T13:56:50Z tallbikeguy quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2016-09-08T13:58:29Z can3p joined #lisp
2016-09-08T13:59:25Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp
2016-09-08T14:00:07Z cromachina quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2016-09-08T14:04:53Z shrdlu68 left #lisp
2016-09-08T14:06:14Z sudshekhar joined #lisp
2016-09-08T14:08:06Z stardiviner quit (Quit: Code, Sex, Just fucking world.)
2016-09-08T14:09:47Z DavidGu joined #lisp
2016-09-08T14:12:22Z stardiviner joined #lisp
2016-09-08T14:12:34Z warweasle joined #lisp
2016-09-08T14:18:35Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2016-09-08T14:19:20Z flip214: clhs eq
2016-09-08T14:19:20Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_eq.htm
2016-09-08T14:19:27Z flip214: specbot: thanks ;)
2016-09-08T14:20:24Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2016-09-08T14:21:11Z Anselmo joined #lisp
2016-09-08T14:21:24Z _sjs joined #lisp
2016-09-08T14:21:55Z phoe quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2016-09-08T14:26:40Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2016-09-08T14:27:40Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Hibernate, reboot, exeunt, etc.)
2016-09-08T14:33:30Z rudolfochrist joined #lisp
2016-09-08T14:34:31Z robotoad joined #lisp
2016-09-08T14:38:09Z SumoSudo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2016-09-08T14:39:31Z rudolfochrist quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2016-09-08T14:42:40Z eivarv joined #lisp
2016-09-08T14:48:25Z Looy joined #lisp
2016-09-08T14:51:03Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2016-09-08T14:52:58Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2016-09-08T14:55:22Z MoALTz joined #lisp
2016-09-08T14:59:31Z dmiles quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2016-09-08T15:00:20Z sellout- joined #lisp
2016-09-08T15:01:09Z robotoad quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2016-09-08T15:01:37Z knicklux quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2016-09-08T15:01:59Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs))
2016-09-08T15:05:15Z chris_l quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
2016-09-08T15:05:46Z BusFactor1 joined #lisp
2016-09-08T15:05:55Z can3p quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2016-09-08T15:07:28Z dyelar joined #lisp
2016-09-08T15:09:59Z flamebeard quit (Quit: Leaving)
2016-09-08T15:10:00Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2016-09-08T15:10:32Z quazimodo joined #lisp
2016-09-08T15:11:26Z can3p joined #lisp
2016-09-08T15:13:24Z robotoad joined #lisp
2016-09-08T15:13:39Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_)
2016-09-08T15:14:17Z bogdanm quit (Quit: Leaving)
2016-09-08T15:17:06Z EvW joined #lisp
2016-09-08T15:22:43Z dmiles joined #lisp
2016-09-08T15:24:05Z manuel_ joined #lisp
2016-09-08T15:24:58Z mgodshall quit (Quit: leaving)
2016-09-08T15:29:10Z mishoo joined #lisp
2016-09-08T15:30:33Z razzy89 quit (Quit: razzy89)
2016-09-08T15:31:40Z razzy89 joined #lisp
2016-09-08T15:32:07Z razzy89 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2016-09-08T15:32:14Z razzy89 joined #lisp
2016-09-08T15:32:39Z sudshekhar quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2016-09-08T15:32:39Z razzy89 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2016-09-08T15:32:51Z razzy89 joined #lisp
2016-09-08T15:33:16Z Bike joined #lisp
2016-09-08T15:33:18Z razzy89 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2016-09-08T15:33:32Z razzy89 joined #lisp
2016-09-08T15:34:05Z razzy89 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2016-09-08T15:34:13Z razzy89 joined #lisp
2016-09-08T15:34:38Z razzy89 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2016-09-08T15:36:25Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2016-09-08T15:37:52Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2016-09-08T15:38:47Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2016-09-08T15:39:06Z gigetoo joined #lisp
2016-09-08T15:39:42Z scymtym_ joined #lisp
2016-09-08T15:40:31Z scymtym quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2016-09-08T15:42:34Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_)
2016-09-08T15:42:55Z scymtym__ joined #lisp
2016-09-08T15:43:05Z manuel_ joined #lisp
2016-09-08T15:45:06Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2016-09-08T15:46:27Z DavidGu quit (Quit: DavidGu)
2016-09-08T15:47:27Z can3p quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2016-09-08T15:54:37Z akkad joined #lisp
2016-09-08T15:54:50Z can3p joined #lisp
2016-09-08T15:56:44Z warweasle quit (Quit: real work)
2016-09-08T16:00:59Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp
2016-09-08T16:01:21Z can3p quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2016-09-08T16:04:50Z sudshekhar joined #lisp
2016-09-08T16:06:15Z mastokley joined #lisp
2016-09-08T16:07:09Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam)
2016-09-08T16:07:17Z stepnem joined #lisp
2016-09-08T16:13:23Z przl_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2016-09-08T16:15:33Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2016-09-08T16:27:48Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp
2016-09-08T16:28:59Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2016-09-08T16:29:45Z setheus quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2016-09-08T16:31:38Z setheus joined #lisp
2016-09-08T16:32:14Z zm joined #lisp
2016-09-08T16:39:18Z Looy quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de)
2016-09-08T16:43:26Z Harag1 joined #lisp
2016-09-08T16:43:35Z Harag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2016-09-08T16:43:36Z Harag1 is now known as Harag
2016-09-08T16:44:40Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp
2016-09-08T16:44:54Z erguven quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2016-09-08T16:52:28Z sudshekhar quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2016-09-08T16:56:06Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2016-09-08T17:00:01Z sjl: hmm, anyone else ever used ABCL and usocket?  For some reason cl:listen doesn't seem to be returning the correct result when I call it on a socket stream that has data
2016-09-08T17:00:17Z sjl: it returns nil, even though there's data on the stream waiting to be read
2016-09-08T17:00:27Z sjl: SBCL works as I'd expect with the same code
2016-09-08T17:01:10Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2016-09-08T17:02:27Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2016-09-08T17:03:50Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2016-09-08T17:04:21Z nzambe quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2016-09-08T17:04:35Z swflint quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2016-09-08T17:05:01Z keix quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2016-09-08T17:05:42Z giraffe quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2016-09-08T17:07:09Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_)
2016-09-08T17:08:05Z manuel_ joined #lisp
2016-09-08T17:08:13Z manuel_ quit (Client Quit)
2016-09-08T17:08:17Z keix joined #lisp
2016-09-08T17:15:14Z Kundry_W` joined #lisp
2016-09-08T17:15:16Z zm quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2016-09-08T17:17:16Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2016-09-08T17:20:40Z sjl: hmm, looks like wait-for-input might work for what I need here
2016-09-08T17:21:04Z Kundry_W` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2016-09-08T17:23:57Z manuel_ joined #lisp
2016-09-08T17:25:30Z holly2 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2016-09-08T17:26:14Z kmb joined #lisp
2016-09-08T17:27:27Z jasom: sjl: I don't think listen does what you think it does.  It listens for new connections
2016-09-08T17:28:11Z sjl: jasom: from https://common-lisp.net/project/usocket/api-docs.shtml
2016-09-08T17:28:15Z sjl: > How do I check whether reading from a socket stream will block?
2016-09-08T17:28:20Z sjl: > When you want to check one stream for readiness of input, call the listen function on the stream object associated with the socket.
2016-09-08T17:28:20Z jasom: oh cl:listen
2016-09-08T17:28:24Z sjl: is that not what I want?
2016-09-08T17:28:26Z sjl: yeah
2016-09-08T17:28:36Z jasom: that is.  My brain was in bsd sockets listen for some reason
2016-09-08T17:29:10Z sjl: probably because it's really confusing to have a function called cl:listen interacting with sockets, which have something else called "listen"
2016-09-08T17:29:12Z sjl: lol
2016-09-08T17:29:20Z jasom: socket-listen vs cl:listen
2016-09-08T17:29:34Z sjl: yeah
2016-09-08T17:29:51Z jasom: sjl: yeah use wait-for-input and let the usocket people know that their socket-stream doesn't work with cl:listen
2016-09-08T17:29:57Z jasom: (on abcl)
2016-09-08T17:30:11Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam)
2016-09-08T17:31:35Z sjl: yeah I guess that'll work
2016-09-08T17:33:09Z holly2 joined #lisp
2016-09-08T17:34:03Z drdo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2016-09-08T17:36:28Z m00natic quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2016-09-08T17:40:44Z EvW joined #lisp
2016-09-08T17:41:04Z Th30n joined #lisp
2016-09-08T17:41:22Z swflint_away joined #lisp
2016-09-08T17:41:37Z mattrepl joined #lisp
2016-09-08T17:41:40Z swflint_away is now known as swflint
2016-09-08T17:42:10Z jasom: phoe's basic example doesn't allow out-of-order lines, which many basic interpreters would (e.g. 10 foo\n 20 bar\n 15 baz\n) would execute statements foo baz bar, in that order.
2016-09-08T17:42:12Z wildlander joined #lisp
2016-09-08T17:45:35Z skarn_ joined #lisp
2016-09-08T17:46:03Z kmb quit (Quit: kmb)
2016-09-08T17:47:28Z gingerale joined #lisp
2016-09-08T17:49:11Z Grue`` quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2016-09-08T17:50:44Z Grue`` joined #lisp
2016-09-08T17:51:53Z H4ns: that's a bummer.  phoe, you lose!
2016-09-08T17:52:04Z gravicappa joined #lisp
2016-09-08T17:53:46Z sellout- quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2016-09-08T17:53:54Z chris_l joined #lisp
2016-09-08T17:54:07Z sellout- joined #lisp
2016-09-08T17:55:05Z varjag joined #lisp
2016-09-08T18:00:37Z Xizor joined #lisp
2016-09-08T18:04:10Z kmb joined #lisp
2016-09-08T18:05:40Z nikki93 joined #lisp
2016-09-08T18:05:41Z swflint quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2016-09-08T18:05:58Z reepca` is now known as reepca
2016-09-08T18:06:59Z wolf_mozart quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2016-09-08T18:07:21Z PosterdatiMobile joined #lisp
2016-09-08T18:07:26Z drdo joined #lisp
2016-09-08T18:07:50Z raydeejay: jasom: actually, you probably need a "RUN" afterwards, which points at the difference ^^
2016-09-08T18:08:21Z _PosterdatiMobil joined #lisp
2016-09-08T18:11:25Z swflint_away joined #lisp
2016-09-08T18:11:30Z swflint_away is now known as swflint
2016-09-08T18:15:32Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2016-09-08T18:19:38Z puchacz joined #lisp
2016-09-08T18:21:21Z bocaneri quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2016-09-08T18:22:41Z steelbird quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2016-09-08T18:22:46Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2016-09-08T18:23:00Z rick-monster` joined #lisp
2016-09-08T18:23:01Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2016-09-08T18:23:52Z Grue`` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2016-09-08T18:24:34Z steelbird joined #lisp
2016-09-08T18:27:11Z shka_ joined #lisp
2016-09-08T18:29:26Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2016-09-08T18:30:04Z stardiviner joined #lisp
2016-09-08T18:30:06Z yrk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2016-09-08T18:30:14Z stardiviner quit (Changing host)
2016-09-08T18:30:14Z stardiviner joined #lisp
2016-09-08T18:30:55Z EvW joined #lisp
2016-09-08T18:33:25Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2016-09-08T18:38:13Z sellout-1 joined #lisp
2016-09-08T18:39:46Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2016-09-08T18:39:57Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2016-09-08T18:40:01Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp
2016-09-08T18:42:04Z sellout- quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2016-09-08T18:43:08Z sudshekhar joined #lisp
2016-09-08T18:46:04Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp
2016-09-08T18:48:20Z _PosterdatiMobil quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/)
2016-09-08T18:48:38Z test1600_ quit (Quit: Leaving)
2016-09-08T18:49:05Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2016-09-08T18:49:32Z chris_l quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
2016-09-08T18:49:34Z Th30n quit (Quit: leaving)
2016-09-08T18:50:21Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2016-09-08T18:50:38Z nikki93 joined #lisp
2016-09-08T18:52:31Z cmack joined #lisp
2016-09-08T19:00:05Z forgot quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2016-09-08T19:01:13Z forgot joined #lisp
2016-09-08T19:03:21Z sudshekhar quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2016-09-08T19:05:00Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2016-09-08T19:06:41Z Ven_ joined #lisp
2016-09-08T19:11:31Z johs quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2016-09-08T19:12:11Z sudshekhar joined #lisp
2016-09-08T19:13:05Z nikki93 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2016-09-08T19:13:09Z defaultxr joined #lisp
2016-09-08T19:13:23Z nikki93 joined #lisp
2016-09-08T19:16:37Z drmeister: What are peoples feelings about webassembly as a compilation target?    I'd like to propose (in a 4-year grant proposal) to deploy Clasp and Cando (C++ & Common Lisp) applications to the web.   Is the web ready for me yet?
2016-09-08T19:16:49Z drmeister: https://webassembly.github.io
2016-09-08T19:17:17Z raydeejay: the web is not ready for anything that came after HTML, if you ask me :D
2016-09-08T19:23:23Z can3p joined #lisp
2016-09-08T19:27:32Z fourier joined #lisp
2016-09-08T19:35:16Z ggole quit
2016-09-08T19:36:37Z sudshekhar quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2016-09-08T19:37:44Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp
2016-09-08T19:43:39Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2016-09-08T19:43:43Z pierpa: drmeister: FWIW, I think it would be great
2016-09-08T19:43:59Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp
2016-09-08T19:47:10Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp
2016-09-08T19:49:45Z drmeister: Clasp generates LLVM bitcode and links C++ LLVM bitcode with Common Lisp LLVM bitcode where C++ functions and CL functions are inlined within each other.
2016-09-08T19:52:03Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2016-09-08T19:53:04Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2016-09-08T19:55:15Z sjl joined #lisp
2016-09-08T19:58:14Z nikki93 joined #lisp
2016-09-08T20:00:58Z jasom: drmeister: there's only a subset of llvm bitcode that works with the WA backend, IIRC
2016-09-08T20:01:17Z jasom: that's certainly the case for emscripten anyway
2016-09-08T20:02:37Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2016-09-08T20:07:37Z nikki93 joined #lisp
2016-09-08T20:08:39Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp
2016-09-08T20:12:54Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2016-09-08T20:13:51Z prole quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2016-09-08T20:14:19Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2016-09-08T20:21:10Z scymtym__ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2016-09-08T20:26:01Z PosterdatiMobile quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/)
2016-09-08T20:27:16Z EvW joined #lisp
2016-09-08T20:28:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: Has anyone written a custom method combination that can be extended?
2016-09-08T20:29:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: i.e. I'm interested in a method combination like the standard one but with the option of a special qualifier that lets you transform the result
2016-09-08T20:29:40Z oGMo: er can't you just do that with :around
2016-09-08T20:29:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: Sure, but :around is a bit much
2016-09-08T20:30:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: for one thing, it's really easy to mess up an :around method
2016-09-08T20:30:18Z PosterdatiMobile joined #lisp
2016-09-08T20:30:25Z oGMo: so... you write 1 around method that calls another generic function that does what you want? ;)
2016-09-08T20:30:27Z _PosterdatiMobil joined #lisp
2016-09-08T20:30:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: I suppose so, that's feels like working around a limitation of the system
2016-09-08T20:31:08Z _PosterdatiMobil quit (Client Quit)
2016-09-08T20:31:18Z oGMo: not everything has to be a language feature
2016-09-08T20:31:48Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam)
2016-09-08T20:31:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: This is lisp we're talking about, right?
2016-09-08T20:31:53Z asc232 joined #lisp
2016-09-08T20:31:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: :)
2016-09-08T20:32:33Z arpunk quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2016-09-08T20:32:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm just a bit surprised that this thread didn't generate a library that does this
2016-09-08T20:32:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.lang.lisp/mrH53EwsFcQ
2016-09-08T20:32:48Z fourier quit (Quit: leaving)
2016-09-08T20:33:07Z xaotuk joined #lisp
2016-09-08T20:35:38Z jasom: it's easy to mess up an :around method?
2016-09-08T20:36:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, forgetting (call-next-method) forgetting to return the value of (call-next-method), etc.
2016-09-08T20:36:03Z oGMo: if you try, you don't have to try terribly hard i guess
2016-09-08T20:36:34Z oGMo: but i think it's even easier to screw up initialize-instance
2016-09-08T20:36:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: The ideal thing would be to somehow have access to the return value of the primary method in :after methods
2016-09-08T20:36:50Z oGMo: if you forget c-n-m there or don't make it :after, oops
2016-09-08T20:37:24Z zygentoma joined #lisp
2016-09-08T20:37:58Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp
2016-09-08T20:38:27Z jasom: the whole point of :around is c-n-m
2016-09-08T20:38:44Z jasom: and in this case, you don't want to return the value of c-n-m
2016-09-08T20:38:51Z asc232 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2016-09-08T20:38:56Z jasom: in other cases you might want to not invoke c-n-m at all
2016-09-08T20:39:08Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp
2016-09-08T20:39:25Z rick-monster left #lisp
2016-09-08T20:39:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: Another case is something like Eiffel-style postconditions
2016-09-08T20:39:40Z jasom: I suppose you could do something like (define-filter-method ...) that automates the calling of your function on the result of c-n-m.
2016-09-08T20:39:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: There's an implementation out there that defines a whole new method combination to implement design by contract
2016-09-08T20:40:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: s/implementation/library/g
2016-09-08T20:40:25Z jasom: right, well that's a case where the default method combination might not cut it.
2016-09-08T20:40:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: That seems a bit like overkill
2016-09-08T20:41:24Z jasom: but for me, the idea of transforming the output is one of my top 2 or 3 reasons for using :around methods.
2016-09-08T20:41:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: I guess it depends on the way you're transforming the result
2016-09-08T20:42:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: If there is a single transformation that can be defined on the superclass, :around method makes sense to me
2016-09-08T20:42:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, if you're defining a different transformation for each subclass they make less sense
2016-09-08T20:42:27Z oGMo: i think the idea of not using something because, in theory, one may forget to do the blinding obvious and entire point of said feature, is silly :P
2016-09-08T20:43:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm probably going to use :around and maybe a macro or something
2016-09-08T20:43:07Z raydeejay: if you take it far enough it becomes "don't write code"
2016-09-08T20:43:15Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam)
2016-09-08T20:43:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: Isn't that the goal?
2016-09-08T20:43:19Z phoe joined #lisp
2016-09-08T20:43:21Z oGMo: raydeejay: really if you just apply it in _any other case_ heh
2016-09-08T20:43:29Z oGMo: the goal is getting the job done
2016-09-08T20:43:32Z jasom: fiddlerwoaroof: I was more thinking (defmethod foo :around (some-object (x integer)) ; ensure output is integer)
2016-09-08T20:43:52Z raydeejay: fiddlerwoaroof: you made me think of the scene in Star Trek IV where Scotty tries to use a computer
2016-09-08T20:43:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: http://paste.lisp.org/display/317863
2016-09-08T20:44:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: That's the situation where :around methods make sense for the result I want
2016-09-08T20:44:32Z kmb quit (Quit: kmb)
2016-09-08T20:44:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: Anyways, whatever I'm mostly just complaining right now
2016-09-08T20:45:44Z jasom: I wonder why you would ever return a list of strings, particularly since you are doing this in a loop.  string-output-stream in each method seems to me the mor natural way of representing this
2016-09-08T20:48:03Z jasom: (e.g. the privider (eql nil) case could be (format nil "~{~A~^+~}" strings))
2016-09-08T20:48:50Z jasom: the google case would be (format nil "%21google~{+~A~}")
2016-09-08T20:48:55Z White_Flame: I'm not a heavy user of CLOS, but the one thing that's bitten me is the inability to attach multiple :after methods to a single specialization
2016-09-08T20:49:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, that'd probably be better jasom
2016-09-08T20:49:18Z oGMo: White_Flame: right but then you want hooks
2016-09-08T20:49:37Z phoe quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2016-09-08T20:49:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: I wrote it that way mostly because I was looking for an excuse to use the append method combination
2016-09-08T20:50:06Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp
2016-09-08T20:50:07Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2016-09-08T20:51:09Z White_Flame: oGMo: actually, I don't "want" hooks there; I actually want CLOS to be able to express that directly :)
2016-09-08T20:51:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: Although, to replicate the behavior, the :around method would probably be something like (with-output-to-string (*standard-output*)...)
2016-09-08T20:52:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: White_Flame: that's sort of my point too: it'd be nice if CLOS could be easily modified to express certain idioms directly
2016-09-08T20:52:12Z jasom: what is append method combination, btw?  I don't see it in clhs 7.6.6.2
2016-09-08T20:52:18Z oGMo: White_Flame: composition is not a bad word :p
2016-09-08T20:52:23Z raydeejay: (with-pony ...)
2016-09-08T20:52:24Z raydeejay hides
2016-09-08T20:52:29Z oGMo: ^
2016-09-08T20:52:32Z White_Flame: (dwim ...)
2016-09-08T20:52:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: jasom: it appends the results of all the methods in the hierarchy
2016-09-08T20:52:45Z oGMo: (feature-creep ...) :p
2016-09-08T20:53:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: clhs 7.6.6.4
2016-09-08T20:53:10Z specbot: Built-in Method Combination Types: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/07_ffd.htm
2016-09-08T20:53:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: jasom ^
2016-09-08T20:54:49Z jasom: ah
2016-09-08T20:54:52Z White_Flame: well, to me the ability to only have a single :after method (and others) is more a consequence of the imperative nature of defining functions in Lisp in general, which resolve a named place to put that code and mutate it to the new definition.  All as opposed to more declarative means where peer things can coexist without semantic ambiguity about trampling
2016-09-08T20:55:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: White_Flame: you could have an :after -like qualifier that takes a weight
2016-09-08T20:55:34Z White_Flame: the alternative would be something like "remove :after function"/"add :after function" with would be annoying
2016-09-08T20:55:44Z White_Flame: to support multiples coexisting
2016-09-08T20:55:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: (defmethod foo :after 1 ...)
2016-09-08T20:56:23Z White_Flame: a weight would still mean managing the interaction between them, not just have different places in your code hook their own independent functionality off of a central generic function
2016-09-08T20:56:34Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp
2016-09-08T20:56:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: The problem with not overriding an :after method with the same specializers is that it'd make incremental development annoying
2016-09-08T20:56:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: i.e. how would CLOS know when to append a hook and when to override one?
2016-09-08T20:57:00Z White_Flame: right, that's the imperative/mutation  issue
2016-09-08T20:57:15Z |3b|: if they don't all do the same thing, put the after methods on mixins instead
2016-09-08T20:57:15Z arpunk joined #lisp
2016-09-08T20:57:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm not sure how you'd really get around that
2016-09-08T20:58:18Z White_Flame: |3b|: that's pretty intrusive as well
2016-09-08T20:58:32Z |3b|: intrusive but informative :)
2016-09-08T20:59:02Z White_Flame: and it's not as easily modular
2016-09-08T20:59:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: hmm, you could give each hook a name
2016-09-08T20:59:24Z oGMo: really you can do any of this with simple exisitng features, assuming you _actually_ have this problem to solve :p
2016-09-08T20:59:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: something like (defmethod :after-hook foo ((a foo)) ... )
2016-09-08T20:59:37Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2016-09-08T20:59:53Z White_Flame: oGMo: right.  It's just the intersection between practicality and idealism that brings up the issues :)
2016-09-08T21:00:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: Sure, there's any of a hundred ways to do any given thing in Lisp
2016-09-08T21:00:18Z oGMo has used :around-calls-another-function before but everytime hooks seemed useful, he was doing something wrong
2016-09-08T21:00:43Z oGMo: White_Flame: i'm not seeing any actual issues :P
2016-09-08T21:01:01Z White_Flame: The issue is the step between the simple case and a complex case
2016-09-08T21:01:21Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam)
2016-09-08T21:01:45Z oGMo: the issue i _have_ had is initialize-instance reordering, where sometimes it's useful to do things most-specific-first .. you can't change initialize-instance to do that, but you can easily make your own protocol
2016-09-08T21:02:15Z arpunk quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2016-09-08T21:02:23Z White_Flame: If I have a debug functionality I want to hang onto a method via :after, that's easy.  If I have a heuristics hook I want to it, that's easy.  If I want to hook both, it's still the same overall semantic desire, but conflict with the system semantics
2016-09-08T21:02:25Z madbub quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2016-09-08T21:03:37Z eivarv quit (Quit: Sleep)
2016-09-08T21:03:50Z White_Flame: and both of the simple cases can be done hands-off from the central definitions
2016-09-08T21:04:08Z White_Flame: (well, as long as the central definitions don't use :after themselves, I guess)
2016-09-08T21:05:26Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp
2016-09-08T21:05:31Z lnostdal__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2016-09-08T21:05:32Z White_Flame: all of that really points to an ideal that the system provides for simple cases, but not for slightly more complex cases, which is just a shame that I'm sensitive to
2016-09-08T21:06:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: ^ +1
2016-09-08T21:06:29Z Xizor quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2016-09-08T21:06:45Z raydeejay: I wonder how slightly is "slightly"
2016-09-08T21:06:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: Although mixins aren't too bad for the case you describe?
2016-09-08T21:06:51Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2016-09-08T21:07:07Z |3b|: you can enable your debugging per-instance with mixins
2016-09-08T21:07:09Z White_Flame: right, the only downside of mixins is that they "pollute" the central definitions, instead of being tacked on "from the outside"
2016-09-08T21:07:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: Since you can modify a class definition at runtime, you could just dynamically add the debug mixin to the class in question
2016-09-08T21:07:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: And remove it dynamically
2016-09-08T21:07:27Z White_Flame: again, idealism intersecting with practicality
2016-09-08T21:07:34Z White_Flame: true
2016-09-08T21:07:43Z |3b|: harder (or at least less convenient) to do that for /all/ instances with change-class though
2016-09-08T21:07:43Z can3p quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2016-09-08T21:07:51Z White_Flame: unless you're talking about hooking NUMBER or something
2016-09-08T21:08:39Z nikki93 joined #lisp
2016-09-08T21:08:59Z arpunk joined #lisp
2016-09-08T21:09:46Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2016-09-08T21:10:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: (trace length) produces exciting results . . .
2016-09-08T21:10:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: For good reasons, but still
2016-09-08T21:11:07Z |3b|: exciting and undefined :p
2016-09-08T21:11:35Z axion: Is there functionality to prune old quicklisp software? I just noticed quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software has years different versions of the same libraries
2016-09-08T21:12:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: My life would be so much better these days if someone wrote a parenscript for PHP
2016-09-08T21:12:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: :)
2016-09-08T21:12:36Z raydeejay: heresy
2016-09-08T21:12:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: PHP pays the bills these days
2016-09-08T21:12:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: (oh, I mean a lisp->php compiler)
2016-09-08T21:13:11Z raydeejay: ah ok, lesser heresy
2016-09-08T21:13:50Z puchacz quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2016-09-08T21:13:52Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2016-09-08T21:15:04Z White_Flame: Parenthetical Hypertext Preprocessor
2016-09-08T21:15:44Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam)
2016-09-08T21:16:33Z oGMo: axion: (mapcar #'ql-dist:clean (ql-dist:all-dists)) i think
2016-09-08T21:17:15Z kmb joined #lisp
2016-09-08T21:18:28Z kolko quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2016-09-08T21:18:38Z axion: oGMo: Thanks! I remember asking a couple years ago and this wasn't possible. That helped a lot.
2016-09-08T21:19:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: SBCL has real exciting error messages when you hit a memory fault
2016-09-08T21:19:37Z xaotuk quit (Quit: xaotuk)
2016-09-08T21:22:45Z jasom: fiddlerwoaroof: well memory faults are exciting
2016-09-08T21:24:32Z PuercoPop: wasn't there some lisp in php in the style of hy?
2016-09-08T21:24:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: probably
2016-09-08T21:25:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: http://www.pharen.org/index.html
2016-09-08T21:25:22Z oGMo: axion: heh yeah it gets pretty crufty
2016-09-08T21:25:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: One thing that annoys me is that new lisps tend to be lisp-1s
2016-09-08T21:29:11Z manuel__ joined #lisp
2016-09-08T21:29:25Z manuel_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2016-09-08T21:29:26Z manuel__ is now known as manuel_
2016-09-08T21:35:01Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp
2016-09-08T21:35:30Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp
2016-09-08T21:37:30Z MoALTz quit (Quit: Leaving)
2016-09-08T21:37:46Z Harag quit (Quit: Harag)
2016-09-08T21:38:54Z Kundry_Wag quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2016-09-08T21:39:10Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp
2016-09-08T21:40:24Z phoe joined #lisp
2016-09-08T21:40:59Z Ven_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2016-09-08T21:41:27Z Princess17b29a joined #lisp
2016-09-08T21:44:22Z thomas joined #lisp
2016-09-08T21:44:52Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2016-09-08T21:46:15Z scymtym joined #lisp
2016-09-08T21:48:10Z Harag joined #lisp
2016-09-08T21:49:45Z Harag quit (Client Quit)
2016-09-08T21:49:45Z elimik31 joined #lisp
2016-09-08T21:50:01Z Harag joined #lisp
2016-09-08T21:50:16Z earl-ducaine joined #lisp
2016-09-08T21:54:18Z eMBee quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2016-09-08T21:54:20Z jasom: it also annoys me that new lisps don't have symbols in the same waythat CL does
2016-09-08T21:57:11Z edgar-rft: jasom: "new lisps" try to be *popular* so they must lower their quality to the bullshit level that average people are familiar with.
2016-09-08T21:58:15Z PuercoPop: jasom: what do you mean? grouped by packages? symbol-list? or something else
2016-09-08T21:58:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: PHP is sort of a Lisp-2
2016-09-08T21:58:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: (obviously, not syntax-wise, but with the way it handles namespaces)
2016-09-08T22:00:22Z BusFacto_ joined #lisp
2016-09-08T22:01:37Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2016-09-08T22:01:42Z adolf_stalin quit (Quit: Leaving...)
2016-09-08T22:02:43Z tmtwd joined #lisp
2016-09-08T22:03:16Z jasom: PuercoPop: more than just a string basically
2016-09-08T22:03:31Z jasom: PuercoPop: which includes packages.
2016-09-08T22:03:52Z BusFactor1 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2016-09-08T22:03:56Z ASau joined #lisp
2016-09-08T22:03:58Z eMBee joined #lisp
2016-09-08T22:04:16Z jasom: obviously lisps that are just AST frontends for other languages are hamstrung here, since most languages consider identifiers to be just strings
2016-09-08T22:04:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: Recent iterations of Javascript don't
2016-09-08T22:05:30Z jasom: fiddlerwoaroof: that's only for object membors IIRC, not for variable names
2016-09-08T22:05:37Z jasom: s/membors/members
2016-09-08T22:05:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, but you could build a CL-like package system on top of it
2016-09-08T22:05:56Z PosterdatiMobile quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/)
2016-09-08T22:06:05Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2016-09-08T22:06:08Z jasom: for everything but function-local identifiers, yes.
2016-09-08T22:06:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: Because ECMA modules are basically just fancy objects, as far as I can tell
2016-09-08T22:07:20Z PuercoPop: fiddlerwoaroof: can ECMA modules accept parameters like the old 'module' system?
2016-09-08T22:07:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: You mean immediately evaluated functions?
2016-09-08T22:07:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: No, I don't think so.
2016-09-08T22:08:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, I'm not really up on all the ins and outs of them
2016-09-08T22:08:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: And the standards leaves quite a bit of the implementation unspecified
2016-09-08T22:09:18Z PuercoPop: yeah. I accepted the old JS, it seemed a good enough language if you just limited to a subset of it a programmed on it like a scheme. But ES6 is where everything is going
2016-09-08T22:09:23Z PuercoPop: s/accepeted/liked
2016-09-08T22:10:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, ES6 is a combination of some nice things (destructuring and arrow functions) and a bunch of annoying changese like the new class syntax
2016-09-08T22:11:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: Even the arrow functions are a bit annoying because they treat this as a lexical variable rather than as a special variable
2016-09-08T22:11:09Z raydeejay: classes are the most needed feature in JS
2016-09-08T22:11:24Z fiddlerwoaroof likes prototypes
2016-09-08T22:11:49Z mrSpec quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2016-09-08T22:11:59Z mrSpec joined #lisp
2016-09-08T22:12:12Z kolko joined #lisp
2016-09-08T22:12:19Z phoe quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2016-09-08T22:12:20Z mrSpec is now known as Guest64538
2016-09-08T22:12:23Z raydeejay: I could disagree, but then I'd be foolish :)
2016-09-08T22:13:18Z `lain quit (Excess Flood)
2016-09-08T22:13:58Z `lain joined #lisp
2016-09-08T22:14:00Z jasom: fiddlerwoaroof: the whole point of arrow functions is that always binding this at function-call time is stupid.
2016-09-08T22:14:03Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2016-09-08T22:14:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: Maybe, but now you have to remember the difference between the way this works in old-style functions and the way it works in arrow functions
2016-09-08T22:14:38Z jasom: fiddlerwoaroof: the number of times I have written (function () {}.bind(this) is crazy
2016-09-08T22:15:08Z jasom: fiddlerwoaroof: I just always use arrow functions for annonymous functions because unlike old-style functions they actually do what I want.
2016-09-08T22:15:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: most of the time I just do var self=this; function() {...})
2016-09-08T22:15:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, yeah, I've switched to arrow function mostly in practice
2016-09-08T22:17:09Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp
2016-09-08T22:19:07Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp
2016-09-08T22:21:08Z kmb quit (Quit: kmb)
2016-09-08T22:22:15Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2016-09-08T22:22:39Z jasom: Earlier javascript didn't have bind so self=this; was the almost the only way to do it (you could actually wrap with a lambda that bound this and used the "call" method but that was a pain).
2016-09-08T22:24:42Z cmack quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2016-09-08T22:27:18Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp
2016-09-08T22:30:20Z kmb joined #lisp
2016-09-08T22:30:44Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2016-09-08T22:31:46Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp
2016-09-08T22:34:40Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2016-09-08T22:36:26Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2016-09-08T22:36:33Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2016-09-08T22:43:56Z BusFacto_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2016-09-08T22:55:35Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp
2016-09-08T22:57:10Z robotoad quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2016-09-08T22:59:32Z gabriel_laddel quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client)
2016-09-08T23:01:54Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2016-09-08T23:03:48Z drdo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2016-09-08T23:07:06Z lnostdal joined #lisp
2016-09-08T23:08:11Z phoe joined #lisp
2016-09-08T23:09:55Z DeadTrickster quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2016-09-08T23:10:20Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp
2016-09-08T23:11:48Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/)
2016-09-08T23:13:21Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_)
2016-09-08T23:15:29Z robotoad joined #lisp
2016-09-08T23:15:58Z asc232 joined #lisp
2016-09-08T23:23:34Z akkad quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2016-09-08T23:26:35Z manuel_ joined #lisp
2016-09-08T23:28:34Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp
2016-09-08T23:31:48Z slyrus joined #lisp
2016-09-08T23:32:12Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam)
2016-09-08T23:33:16Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2016-09-08T23:33:43Z pillton: Has anyone here read The Little Lisper?
2016-09-08T23:33:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: I read the first several chapters a long time ago
2016-09-08T23:34:18Z cromachina joined #lisp
2016-09-08T23:34:56Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2016-09-08T23:35:10Z pillton: What did you think?
2016-09-08T23:35:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's been quite a while, but I found the way it presented recursion really helpful
2016-09-08T23:35:41Z akkad joined #lisp
2016-09-08T23:35:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: I was probably ~13 at the time, so
2016-09-08T23:37:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: all I remember, basically, is that it did a good job helping me understand how to think recursively
2016-09-08T23:37:26Z drdo joined #lisp
2016-09-08T23:40:32Z drmeister: We just noticed that part of my "land of lisp book" is printed upside down
2016-09-08T23:40:52Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2016-09-08T23:40:59Z drmeister: Has anyone else seen this?
2016-09-08T23:41:03Z robotoad quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2016-09-08T23:41:24Z Kundry_Wag joined #lisp
2016-09-08T23:41:24Z drmeister: Page 151-198
2016-09-08T23:41:32Z drmeister: Wtf?
2016-09-08T23:41:54Z drmeister: Sad
2016-09-08T23:41:55Z robotoad joined #lisp
2016-09-08T23:44:52Z quazimodo joined #lisp
2016-09-08T23:45:40Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2016-09-08T23:47:36Z earl-ducaine quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2016-09-08T23:50:47Z shifty joined #lisp
2016-09-08T23:54:00Z sellout-1 quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2016-09-08T23:54:10Z jleija joined #lisp
2016-09-08T23:54:13Z tmtwd joined #lisp
2016-09-08T23:58:27Z Kundry_Wag quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2016-09-08T23:58:32Z wildlander quit (Quit: Saliendo)
2016-09-08T23:58:58Z Harag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)