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2016-09-04T01:03:35Z jasom: My brain isn't working anymore.  Can someoe tell me what's wrong with this asdf source-registry entry? (:INCLUDE "/nix/store/jpm7dmjvhgx6svnyxxcyi9wi6alzj5cf-lisp-alexandria-20160421-git/common-lisp/asdf-registry/nix.conf")
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2016-09-04T01:11:48Z jasom: gah! validate-source-registry-directive returns T when I paste the directive in from the error message
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2016-09-04T01:13:56Z Bike: what's the error?
2016-09-04T01:14:05Z jasom: ah, but the file it includes fails that test
2016-09-04T01:14:35Z jasom: (UIOP/CONFIGURATION:REPORT-INVALID-FORM ASDF/SOURCE-REGISTRY:INVALID-SOURCE-REGISTRY :FORM (:INCLUDE "/nix/store/3ignwbkdb52d1v5m2igk9wszfpx4a213-lisp-alexandria-20160421-git/common-lisp/asdf-registry/nix.conf") :LOCATION NIL)
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2016-09-04T01:18:59Z jasom: hmmm I fixed the file it includes, but it never makes it that far (tracing validate-source-registry-directive)
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2016-09-04T01:19:50Z jasom: didn't there used to be a way to trace all defuns in a package with slime?
2016-09-04T01:21:07Z jasom: ah, It is expecting a :source-registry form here...
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2016-09-04T01:23:43Z jasom: TIL that "splice" in the ASDF docs doesn't mean what splice means to the entire rest of the world
2016-09-04T01:24:06Z jasom: it doesn't splice in the configuration file, it requires the configuration file to be a complete source registry on its own
2016-09-04T01:25:27Z Bike: that's kind of what i expected :include to do, but you're right that "splice" is maybe not the best description
2016-09-04T01:27:47Z jasom: well some of the requirements are nonsensical for :include (like must declare inheritence)
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2016-09-04T02:08:40Z mordocai:  I think this is on topic due to it being a subset of Common Lisp. Has anyone here used parenscript? Specifically I'm wondering how using it with node style modules and deploying as generated JS files would go.
2016-09-04T02:12:28Z jasom: mordocai: it is on topic.  I use it.
2016-09-04T02:12:34Z jasom: mordocai: I don't use node though.
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2016-09-04T02:12:51Z PuercoPop: mordocai: Red Daly (gonzojive in gh), did some work for integrating PS with asdf. For deployment I think that asdf's bundle-op + mishoo's uglifyJS (the first version, written in CL) would the path of least resistance
2016-09-04T02:12:54Z jasom: I use an ugly hack to deploy with asdf, fwiw
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2016-09-04T02:13:19Z jasom: eval-when and run-program
2016-09-04T02:13:28Z jasom: with dependencies setup properly
2016-09-04T02:14:11Z jasom: It turns out that asdf is really good at loading lisp files, and it's pretty easy to make loading a lisp file have side effects
2016-09-04T02:14:42Z raydeejay: you mean like any other arbitrary language, eh ;-)
2016-09-04T02:15:06Z jasom: https://github.com/jasom/cl-fccs/blob/master/cl-fccs.asd#L44 <-- view.lisp is actually parenscript
2016-09-04T02:15:46Z jasom: https://github.com/jasom/cl-fccs/blob/master/src/genparenscript.lisp
2016-09-04T02:16:45Z jasom: build/do is a script that concatenates the libraries I'm using with th parenscript output and then minifies (or prettifies depending on configuration)
2016-09-04T02:17:07Z jasom: it also gzip compresses it so that I can serve it from clack precompressed
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2016-09-04T02:17:42Z raydeejay bookmarks for later use
2016-09-04T02:18:08Z jasom: I keep on meaning to teach asdf how to do all this, but it's way low down on my priority list, and this works.
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2016-09-04T02:21:11Z jasom: so what is a node style module anyway?  google is failing me.
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2016-09-04T02:22:19Z PuercoPop: jasom: For ASDF integration, I don't remember if this works but if it doesn't it wouldn't be too hard to fix https://github.com/gonzojive/paren-files
2016-09-04T02:22:56Z PuercoPop: jasom: some stuff about exports.foo = to declare the exported api
2016-09-04T02:23:01Z mordocai: jasom: I don't know all the details, but it basically means you make a file with module.exports = <module stuff> then can use require to use those.
2016-09-04T02:23:26Z jasom: mordocai: oh, that thing.  It should be a straight translation from js to parenscript
2016-09-04T02:23:33Z mordocai: I'm actually trying to get https://screeps.com/ + parenscript.
2016-09-04T02:23:43Z PuercoPop: so a node module is like normal javascript but that the end has module.exports = {<your api>}.
2016-09-04T02:24:03Z jasom: then just run whatever tool node gives you to merge them
2016-09-04T02:24:25Z jasom: oh, was it node-style modules?  I had parsed it as node style-modules
2016-09-04T02:24:39Z mordocai: Ah yeah, node-style
2016-09-04T02:24:40Z |3b| tried to integrate ps with asdf, don't remember how well it worked https://github.com/3b/3b-ps-asdf
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2016-09-04T02:25:28Z mordocai needs to remember his filesystem CL foo since he has done it in awhile
2016-09-04T02:25:33Z mordocai: hasn't done*
2016-09-04T02:25:34Z |3b| 's main comment about ps is that putting everything in a closure/object makes it hard to develop incrementally :p
2016-09-04T02:26:07Z mordocai: |3b|: Welcome to javascript. You have to do that with vanilla javascript as well if you don't want nastiness.
2016-09-04T02:26:10Z |3b|: though i guess slime could probably be taught about it
2016-09-04T02:26:29Z |3b|: sort of... you have to scope it, but you don't have to define it in the object
2016-09-04T02:26:52Z jasom: Incremental development outside of lisp and smalltalk is a barrent wasteland
2016-09-04T02:26:57Z |3b|: don't remember exactly what my workaround was, maybe just doing foo.whatever = (lambda ...)
2016-09-04T02:27:16Z |3b|: sure, but the point of ps is to be lisp :)
2016-09-04T02:28:13Z jasom: oh, feel free to copy my asdf hack, but it's probably best not to copy my actual parenscript code... this was my first big parenscript project.
2016-09-04T02:28:51Z PuercoPop: |3b|: didn't you had a slime-proxy for parenscript?
2016-09-04T02:28:56Z |3b|: yeah
2016-09-04T02:29:04Z jasom: though I do need to move the setf implementation upstream.  I've almost got it good enough (right now it doesn't generate "natural" js for some assignments where PS's current implementation does)
2016-09-04T02:29:09Z |3b|: which is why i cared about incremental development :)
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2016-09-04T02:29:57Z jasom: the lack of define-setf-expander in PS bothered me
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2016-09-04T03:06:42Z mordocai: I want the alexandria:when-let in my parenscript. Do I need to implement it myself in parenscript or?
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2016-09-04T03:13:04Z jasom: mordocai: yeah; it may just copy-paste
2016-09-04T03:13:28Z jasom: it's unlikely that all of alexandria will work in parenscript though
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2016-09-04T03:21:23Z mordocai: jasom: Yeah, copying and pasting when-let seems to work. I'm looking into how to make a "macro def" file and have it work with the way I'm distributing this stuff.
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2016-09-04T03:24:24Z jasom: mordocai: my distribution process involved 4 total parenscript files, two of which were shared between lisp and ps
2016-09-04T03:25:00Z jasom: some call it an ugly hack, I find it to be flexible and reliable :)
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2016-09-04T04:19:07Z mordocai: When using an identifier like Game.get-object-by-id in parenscript I have two problems. Firstly, it compiles to "game.getObjectById" NOT "Game.getObjectById" so I guess i'm going to have to configure parenscript with a case sensitive reader somehow. Secondly, it prints a warning "WARNING: Symbol GAME.GET-OBJECT-BY-ID contains one of '.[]' - this compound naming convention is no longer supported by Parenscript!".
2016-09-04T04:19:12Z mordocai: How should I do this kind of thing?
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2016-09-04T04:21:49Z mordocai: Nevermind, found the relevent docs
2016-09-04T04:22:20Z mordocai: Well, except on the warning
2016-09-04T04:24:23Z mordocai: Ah, using chain is letting me get rid of the warning too
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2016-09-04T04:33:45Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2016-09-04T06:00:40Z Fare: beach: Cha`o anh
2016-09-04T06:00:56Z beach: Chào Em.
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2016-09-04T06:04:31Z Fare: beach: did I tell you I restarted writing this thesis of mine?
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2016-09-04T06:04:46Z Fare: (or did you otherwise see my progress on twitter?)
2016-09-04T06:05:13Z beach: You mentioned it here, I think.  I saw something in the logs.
2016-09-04T06:06:03Z Fare: I'm only a bit past half way through the first draft.
2016-09-04T06:06:19Z Fare: but it's taking shape.
2016-09-04T06:06:29Z Fare: Unhappily, it's a bit undersubstantiated.
2016-09-04T06:07:19Z beach: What is the schedule for finishing up?
2016-09-04T06:07:20Z Fare: I have trivial theorems, some pseudo-code in Agda, and many claims that would be better illustrated with an actual reflective Lisp to show.
2016-09-04T06:07:42Z Fare: At this pace, hopefully the first draft should be complete within 2-3 months.
2016-09-04T06:08:01Z Fare: Then I have to decide how much substance I give to it before I submit it anywhere.
2016-09-04T06:08:37Z beach: Oh, you don't know where to submit it?
2016-09-04T06:08:55Z Fare: Update the bibliography; maybe actually prove the theory in Agda or Idris or Coq; maybe implement the reflective system I'll be talking about in the last part of the thesis.
2016-09-04T06:09:53Z Bike: agda somehow sounds more reasonable than that lisp-3 stuff
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2016-09-04T06:11:59Z Fare: you mean B C Smith's 3-Lisp?
2016-09-04T06:12:26Z Bike: yeah
2016-09-04T06:12:28Z Fare: beach: the problem is not *where* to submit but *what* to submit.
2016-09-04T06:12:40Z Fare: If it's bad, I'll be ashamed of submitting it.
2016-09-04T06:12:54Z Bike: agda's the one with dependent types, am i remembering right
2016-09-04T06:12:57Z beach: Of course.
2016-09-04T06:12:59Z Fare: If it's good, I'll have no trouble finding one place or another.
2016-09-04T06:13:05Z Bike: yes. ok great.
2016-09-04T06:13:23Z Fare: Yes. Agda also has annoying manual management of universe index.
2016-09-04T06:13:26Z beach: Fare: I don't know what kind of thesis it is, but usually if it is a PhD or MS thesis, the place to submit is determined by the advisor.
2016-09-04T06:13:37Z Fare: I'm told Idris does that for you
2016-09-04T06:13:58Z Fare: I don't know if my advisor isn't retired by now.
2016-09-04T06:14:22Z Fare: That's secondary. First I'll finish the first draft, then go looking for an advisor.
2016-09-04T06:14:37Z Fare: if my original advisor isn't available anymore
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2016-09-04T06:17:38Z Fare: beach: I'm aiming for a PhD
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2016-09-04T06:17:50Z Fare: but I realize I'll need code to back this thesis
2016-09-04T06:18:29Z Fare: would your CL implementation be a good starting point to make that happen?
2016-09-04T06:19:02Z beach: Hard to say, since I don't know what it is that you might need?
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2016-09-04T06:20:36Z Fare: Here's the current draft: http://fare.tunes.org/tmp/phd/thesis.pdf
2016-09-04T06:21:06Z Fare: Chapters 2-5 are most complete (wrt 1st draft)
2016-09-04T06:22:00Z beach: I need to put that on the back burner.   I am too busy at the moment.  Sorry!
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2016-09-04T13:30:29Z impaktor: Embarrassing question: How do I access an element in a GSLL vector or matrix?
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2016-09-04T13:31:03Z impaktor: (gsl:gsl-lookup "gsl_vector_ptr"), (gsl:gsl-lookup "gsl_vector_get") both return NIL.
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2016-09-04T13:31:34Z impaktor: "gsl_matrix_get_row" works though. But how do I then access an element of that row?
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2016-09-04T14:36:17Z jasom: I'm working on improving nix's packaging of lisp software.  Thoughts on whether it should be one nix package per system or something more like one nix package per what quicklisp calls a "project"
2016-09-04T14:37:39Z jasom: the latter is much simpler to package, but means you might have to install more dependencies than is strictly necessary.
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2016-09-04T14:40:20Z jasom: I guess the third option would be to parameterize the packages; so it's one package per system, but your configuration could add or remove systems that are installed.
2016-09-04T14:40:28Z JuanDaugherty gave up on nix about 5 ya
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2016-09-04T14:40:56Z jasom: JuanDaugherty: I'm really liking everything except the syntax
2016-09-04T14:41:23Z JuanDaugherty: got over would be a better choice of words.
2016-09-04T14:41:59Z JuanDaugherty: if i needed to satisy a configuration mgt purity fetish i'd bring it back
2016-09-04T14:42:34Z JuanDaugherty: otherwise LSB that robustly works like ubuntu is good enough
2016-09-04T14:43:26Z jasom: I don't use it for the configuration mgt purity.  I use it because source-based distributions work better in my experience.
2016-09-04T14:43:42Z JuanDaugherty: ah
2016-09-04T14:44:12Z jasom: In particular, integrating packages that aren't in the central pacakage database tends to be about 100x easier.
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2016-09-04T14:44:30Z jasom: also I wouldn't call ubuntu "robust"
2016-09-04T14:45:01Z JuanDaugherty: yeah the collision with various ecosystems own pkg mgrs help me get over nix
2016-09-04T14:45:09Z jasom: I have installed ubuntu on 3 separate occasions, and in each I encountered fairly significant hurdles.  Getting my video hardware working on ubuntu was actually harder than doing so on gentoo.
2016-09-04T14:45:15Z JuanDaugherty: cabal, gem, usw
2016-09-04T14:46:03Z JuanDaugherty: what would you call ubuntu?
2016-09-04T14:46:19Z JuanDaugherty: broken-ass?
2016-09-04T14:46:22Z jasom: yeah
2016-09-04T14:46:40Z JuanDaugherty: in my experience it would more justly be applied to a lot of nix ports
2016-09-04T14:46:55Z jasom: ubuntu manages to find the sweet spot where they adopt some things before they are stable, yet still manage to not have recent enough packages for other things I'm using.
2016-09-04T14:47:01Z JuanDaugherty: talking about a nixos context here, nix on LSB i dunno from
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2016-09-04T14:47:29Z JuanDaugherty: anyway we're offtopic in a channel that cares
2016-09-04T14:47:34Z jasom: yup
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2016-09-04T19:07:44Z axion: Sigh. I just spent a couple days trying to find a solution to a package problem. Turns out another package I don't have control over is creating a new thread, so specials like *package* don't work as expected.
2016-09-04T19:07:58Z axion: I so wish *specials* could be depended on across threads
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2016-09-04T19:08:49Z Bike: usually you want them to be thread local, so that you don't change *print-pretty* in the middle of a format, i guess
2016-09-04T19:10:01Z axion: This is related to that symbol interning problem I had the other day if you recall. I wanted to intern symbols into the user's package, but SDL creates a new thread so this isn't really possible and will always be CL-USER.
2016-09-04T19:10:59Z Bike: i do recall
2016-09-04T19:11:03Z axion: At least I got to the bottom of why it doesn't work. I had forgotten SDL uses a new thread
2016-09-04T19:11:17Z Bike: well, so wait, like you're running this function creation thing from SDL's thread?
2016-09-04T19:12:04Z axion: Yes
2016-09-04T19:13:00Z axion: Well I am doing it in another system not aware of SDL, and it is called in user code inside of an SDL thread
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2016-09-04T19:22:51Z axion: Bike: https://github.com/lispgames/cl-sdl2/issues/76 - This would solve it, if there was a way
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2016-09-04T19:24:34Z Bike: how would that solve it? the user code would be in some other package and the main thread would still be using sdl2
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2016-09-04T19:26:18Z axion: Hmm yeah.
2016-09-04T19:26:22Z axion: Oh well
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2016-09-04T19:30:36Z Bike: xach mentioned the idea of having the functions take the package explicitly, i think, and i think that's a better idea. relying on *package* is even weirder than interning your own symbols to begin with. it's usually for toplevel stuff like defstruct
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2016-09-04T20:58:57Z ukari: how to copy a closure?
2016-09-04T20:59:40Z Bike: can't generally
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2016-09-04T21:01:32Z ukari: thank you
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2016-09-04T21:08:13Z attila_lendvai: ukari: can you further specify what you mean by "copy"? you can get many references to the same closure, but actually copying it would require messing with deep internals of your lisp
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2016-09-04T21:14:40Z ukari: attila_lendvai: http://paste.lisp.org/+6YVQ
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2016-09-04T21:16:17Z Bike: you can't just say "by 'copy', i mean that i want to copy it". i mean you can, it's totally unhelpful though
2016-09-04T21:16:50Z Bike: alternately, why do you want to do this
2016-09-04T21:17:17Z ukari: i think closure = env + code, so it is possible to copy/clone it
2016-09-04T21:17:39Z Bike: there's no provision for doing this
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2016-09-04T21:18:29Z Bike: but it's possible you can accomplish whatever specific thing you'd like to do in another way
2016-09-04T21:20:20Z ukari: i want to do this because i meet problem about copying and storing closure in javascript, so i try it in lisp
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2016-09-04T21:21:04Z attila_lendvai: ukari: http://paste.lisp.org/display/325142#1
2016-09-04T21:21:48Z Bike: well, you cannot. i don't know that you can in javascript either.
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2016-09-04T21:29:03Z ukari: attila_lendvai, thanks
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