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manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2016-08-26T04:31:55Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2016-08-26T04:32:15Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2016-08-26T04:36:31Z jlarocco joined #lisp 2016-08-26T04:37:31Z jlarocco: it feels like this is a dumb question, but I can't find the answer 2016-08-26T04:37:48Z jlarocco: i'm writing a structure to a file by converting it into an alist 2016-08-26T04:38:16Z jlarocco: then I'm reading it back using (read my-stream) and grabbing the fields using assoc 2016-08-26T04:38:45Z jlarocco: it seemed like an easy way to store the data, which is more or less key/value pairs 2016-08-26T04:39:07Z blub: structures print readably by default 2016-08-26T04:39:27Z jlarocco: haha, really? 2016-08-26T04:40:05Z blub: mhm the #s read macro 2016-08-26T04:40:13Z jlarocco: i did not realize that 2016-08-26T04:40:35Z H4ns: printing and reading alists should work as well though, as should printing and reading plists. also, it is not hard to print clos instances readably. what's the problem, really? 2016-08-26T04:40:58Z jlarocco: oh yeah, I guess it is, it was even dumber than I thought 2016-08-26T04:41:03Z jlarocco: but I do still have the question 2016-08-26T04:41:15Z jlarocco: (read my-stream) in run in a package 2016-08-26T04:41:25Z jlarocco: so the alist symols are in that package 2016-08-26T04:41:44Z jlarocco: but not the symbols from format 2016-08-26T04:42:16Z myrkraverk joined #lisp 2016-08-26T04:42:17Z jlarocco: so (format nil "~a" my-alist) is something like "((abc 42) (wtf 89) ...)" 2016-08-26T04:42:26Z H4ns: jlarocco: you'll have to make sure that *package* is bound to the same package while printing and reading. 2016-08-26T04:43:00Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-08-26T04:43:16Z jlarocco: ah, that answers another thing I was wondering about 2016-08-26T04:43:18Z H4ns: jlarocco: or use keywords. you can also bind *package* to, say, the common-lisp package so that all your printed symbols are qualified. 2016-08-26T04:43:42Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-08-26T04:43:55Z jlarocco: i was writing using ((:abc . 42) (:def . 89)) 2016-08-26T04:44:06Z jlarocco: but :abc and :def wouldn't be in the package 2016-08-26T04:44:41Z H4ns: in "the package"? keyword symbols are always in the keywords package 2016-08-26T04:47:13Z jlarocco: that didn't seem to work, though 2016-08-26T04:47:43Z jlarocco: format doesn't write the colon to make them keywords 2016-08-26T04:48:06Z H4ns: you should not use format to create readable output 2016-08-26T04:48:14Z H4ns: print is meant to be used for that. 2016-08-26T04:48:15Z blub: if you use with-standard-io-syntax, that will ensure that *package* is bound to cl-user, as well as things like binding *read-base* to 10 etc 2016-08-26T04:49:38Z H4ns: "common lisp recipes" has a short chapter (13-9) on make-load-form: https://books.google.de/books?id=FPxSCwAAQBAJ&pg=PA383#v=onepage&q&f=false 2016-08-26T04:51:44Z oleo_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-08-26T04:52:56Z kamog quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-08-26T04:53:14Z jlarocco: wow 2016-08-26T04:53:23Z jlarocco: (with-open-file (stream ...) (print my-object stream)) and (with-open-file (stream ...) (read stream)) do exactly what I need 2016-08-26T04:54:17Z jlarocco: I literally spent a couple hours tracking that down and trying to figure out why it wasn't working 2016-08-26T04:54:18Z justanotherusr joined #lisp 2016-08-26T04:54:19Z H4ns: jlarocco: blub's advice on with-standard-io-syntax is very good 2016-08-26T04:54:51Z justanotherusr quit (Client Quit) 2016-08-26T04:55:08Z H4ns: jlarocco: you may want to set *print-length* and *print-level* to some sane value in your repl to prevent it from being flooded with data, but then you'll break your persistence layer unless you use with-standard-io-syntax 2016-08-26T04:55:19Z jlarocco: oh yeah, I need to wrap it with that 2016-08-26T04:56:01Z kmb quit (Quit: kmb) 2016-08-26T04:56:27Z jlarocco: thank you! 2016-08-26T04:58:09Z justanotherusr joined #lisp 2016-08-26T04:58:14Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-08-26T04:58:17Z justanotherusr quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-08-26T05:04:35Z woona joined #lisp 2016-08-26T05:05:08Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2016-08-26T05:05:11Z Whip quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-08-26T05:06:50Z blub: hi beach 2016-08-26T05:08:24Z loke__: Hello blub 2016-08-26T05:08:34Z adolf_stalin quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2016-08-26T05:10:07Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-08-26T05:11:29Z blub: hi loke__ 2016-08-26T05:13:03Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-08-26T05:15:12Z _sjs joined #lisp 2016-08-26T05:17:42Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-08-26T05:17:50Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-08-26T05:19:46Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-08-26T05:20:15Z flamebeard joined #lisp 2016-08-26T05:20:19Z ggole joined #lisp 2016-08-26T05:33:33Z iskander_work quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-08-26T05:37:03Z asc232 joined #lisp 2016-08-26T05:41:07Z Xizor joined #lisp 2016-08-26T05:45:18Z iskander_work joined #lisp 2016-08-26T05:45:32Z shka_ joined #lisp 2016-08-26T05:49:52Z arescorpio quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-08-26T05:52:01Z mastokley joined #lisp 2016-08-26T05:54:23Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-08-26T05:57:02Z mrcom joined #lisp 2016-08-26T05:57:30Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-08-26T05:58:06Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-08-26T06:01:39Z saturniid quit (Read error: Connection timed out) 2016-08-26T06:02:27Z saturniid joined #lisp 2016-08-26T06:02:31Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2016-08-26T06:02:43Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-08-26T06:08:07Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-08-26T06:08:50Z schjetne joined #lisp 2016-08-26T06:15:59Z _sjs joined #lisp 2016-08-26T06:16:37Z H4ns: can some channel unprotect the topic, please? 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2016-08-26T09:32:28Z DavidGu joined #lisp 2016-08-26T09:32:46Z Josh2 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-08-26T09:32:48Z Xathereal: My compile function returns (- 1) as a list. 2016-08-26T09:32:58Z Josh2 joined #lisp 2016-08-26T09:32:59Z Xathereal: i.e. (list '- 1) 2016-08-26T09:33:06Z Xathereal: I wan't to evaluate it. 2016-08-26T09:33:12Z Xathereal: Using something like funcall 2016-08-26T09:33:30Z Xathereal: Actually, specifically using funcall :\ 2016-08-26T09:33:31Z beach: I guess I am more asking why you are trying to do that. 2016-08-26T09:33:47Z Xathereal: Oh, it's part of a university tutorial. I've been at it for a day now. 2016-08-26T09:33:58Z Xathereal: This is part of a bigger bit of work. 2016-08-26T09:34:02Z Xathereal: I can't get my head around this. 2016-08-26T09:34:18Z Xathereal: I've tried lambdas. 2016-08-26T09:34:20Z Xathereal: That failed. 2016-08-26T09:34:26Z raydeejay: get the head of the list, funcall it passing the tail 2016-08-26T09:34:44Z Xathereal: hmmm 2016-08-26T09:35:00Z Xathereal: It has to be in the form (funcall program). 2016-08-26T09:35:04Z Xathereal: I can't change that part. 2016-08-26T09:35:07Z Xathereal: ... :( 2016-08-26T09:35:13Z Xathereal: But, I can see how that would work :D 2016-08-26T09:35:26Z raydeejay scratches head 2016-08-26T09:36:20Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2016-08-26T09:36:42Z beach: Xathereal: If you want to do (funcall program) then the program will either have to be a function with no parameters, or a symbol naming such a function. 2016-08-26T09:37:05Z DavidGu quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-08-26T09:37:24Z Xathereal: Right -- so I have to return a lambda? 2016-08-26T09:37:27Z beach: Xathereal: But you are returning a list from COMPILER. 2016-08-26T09:38:33Z Xathereal: beach: I think that's my answer 2016-08-26T09:39:09Z Xathereal: beach: My problem with the lambdas are, we are actually calling our 'program' like this.... (funcall program '((A 1))) 2016-08-26T09:39:11Z lnostdal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-08-26T09:39:31Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2016-08-26T09:39:56Z Xathereal: And we could have something like... (- (+ A A) (+ A A)) 2016-08-26T09:40:06Z beach: That is not what you said. You said (funcall program) with no arguments. 2016-08-26T09:40:25Z beach: Xathereal: There is no such thing as "a lambda" in Common Lisp. There is a macro named LAMBDA that creates a function. And the symbol LAMBDA can be used in a FUNCTION special form. 2016-08-26T09:40:33Z beach: clhs lambda 2016-08-26T09:40:33Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_lambda.htm 2016-08-26T09:41:12Z Josh2 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-08-26T09:41:21Z Josh3 joined #lisp 2016-08-26T09:42:31Z Xathereal: ooh 2016-08-26T09:43:04Z robotoad quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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I've got some problems while trying to load FASL into binary created with Xach's buildapp. 2016-08-26T09:56:12Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-08-26T09:56:15Z Harag1 is now known as Harag 2016-08-26T09:57:57Z kdas__ is now known as kushal 2016-08-26T09:58:05Z kushal quit (Changing host) 2016-08-26T09:58:05Z kushal joined #lisp 2016-08-26T09:59:45Z lexicall joined #lisp 2016-08-26T10:00:07Z otwieracz: Why it is looking for source file? 2016-08-26T10:00:26Z m00natic joined #lisp 2016-08-26T10:03:32Z lexicall quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-08-26T10:04:03Z lexicall joined #lisp 2016-08-26T10:04:39Z norfumpit quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-08-26T10:08:41Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2016-08-26T10:09:01Z scymtym joined #lisp 2016-08-26T10:13:22Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-08-26T10:14:01Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-08-26T10:15:06Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2016-08-26T10:16:11Z Harag quit (Quit: Harag) 2016-08-26T10:18:32Z nikki93 quit 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2016-08-26T13:28:45Z hjudt: that is, when i :use :local-time 2016-08-26T13:28:49Z beach: hjudt: As long as you don't USE both packages you are fine. 2016-08-26T13:29:17Z beach: hjudt: It is for reasons like that, that I no longer USE any packages other than COMMON-LISP. 2016-08-26T13:30:28Z beach: hjudt: Another reason for not USEing other packages is that your code may break as a result of future modifications to any package you USE. 2016-08-26T13:30:43Z hjudt: so i should always :import-from? 2016-08-26T13:30:50Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-08-26T13:31:04Z beach: Just use package prefixes on the symbols from other packages. 2016-08-26T13:31:38Z hjudt: iirc, there is some way to :import-from with an alias? 2016-08-26T13:31:44Z beach: hjudt: By USEing a package, you put a lot of trust into the author of that package. In my opinion, only very stable packages deserve this, such as COMMON-LISP. 2016-08-26T13:32:06Z beach: You can import selected symbols into your package, sure. 2016-08-26T13:32:11Z hjudt: that is a good advice 2016-08-26T13:33:14Z beach: There are some package naming conventions that make it basically impossible to use explicit package prefixes, in which case importing selected symbols may be your only option. 2016-08-26T13:33:48Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-08-26T13:34:15Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2016-08-26T13:34:53Z hjudt: i mainly use :use because it is easier for development, not having to type so much 2016-08-26T13:34:57Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-08-26T13:35:29Z cromachina: that's what autocomplete is for 2016-08-26T13:35:32Z beach: You can use completion in SLIME to fix that problem. 2016-08-26T13:35:54Z hjudt: i wanted to switch to :import-from when i am nearly finished writing the bulk of code 2016-08-26T13:36:25Z beach: In fact, the code is clearer and therefore easier to maintain when you have explicit package prefixes. 2016-08-26T13:36:38Z hjudt: ok, i will consider it 2016-08-26T13:37:09Z hjudt: and maybe look at other code that people write 2016-08-26T13:37:25Z beach: That's a good idea. 2016-08-26T13:38:50Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2016-08-26T13:39:00Z peterh quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-08-26T13:39:27Z hjudt: another question regarding date & time libraries. i have to convert between unix epoch and universal time. now it seems there are these options: use cl-epoch and cl-strftime or use local-time. can anyone recommend which way to go? local-time seems far more complete but may even be a bit too big, as i don't really need the extra functionality. are there other options? 2016-08-26T13:39:48Z Josh2 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-08-26T13:39:54Z varjag: is there anything like mapcar but generalized to multiple values 2016-08-26T13:40:03Z beach: hjudt: "too big" is almost never a good reason. 2016-08-26T13:40:06Z varjag: mm guess not 2016-08-26T13:40:33Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-08-26T13:40:37Z hjudt: or to state it another way: what do people use? 2016-08-26T13:41:37Z rpg: hjudt: We have used LOCAL-TIME and been pretty happy with it. 2016-08-26T13:42:44Z sjl: did package-local-nicknames ever go anywhere? 2016-08-26T13:43:24Z sjl: https://github.com/3b/package-local-nicknames says to not use it... 2016-08-26T13:43:39Z sjl: but that would make using package prefixes a lot less annoying 2016-08-26T13:43:53Z beach: Very true. 2016-08-26T13:44:33Z warweasle joined #lisp 2016-08-26T13:46:02Z kangoo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-08-26T13:46:19Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-08-26T13:47:54Z warweasle: What's up today? 2016-08-26T13:48:24Z sjl: looks like SBCL has it natively, though the manual calls it experimental 2016-08-26T13:48:52Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-08-26T13:51:19Z Grue``: if the kitten of death is not mentioned, it should be ok 2016-08-26T13:55:22Z cromachina quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-08-26T13:56:45Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-08-26T13:58:07Z isoraqathedh: I find the package nickname thing a little weird. I was expecting an alternate approach where it's the package user that chooses nicknames, rather than the package itself. 2016-08-26T13:58:51Z jdz: isoraqathedh: you can use RENAME-PACKAGE to add a nickname to an existing package. 2016-08-26T13:58:52Z beach: That's what "package aliases" or "package-local-nicknames" are about. 2016-08-26T14:00:22Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2016-08-26T14:00:36Z scymtym__ joined #lisp 2016-08-26T14:01:34Z warweasle: Is there a way to copy a closure? 2016-08-26T14:02:01Z beach: No. 2016-08-26T14:02:07Z beach: Why would you want to do that? 2016-08-26T14:02:24Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-08-26T14:02:37Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-08-26T14:02:54Z beach: Closures are immutable. 2016-08-26T14:03:01Z Munksgaard quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-08-26T14:03:21Z warweasle: beach: I have a 3D mesh with state, and I want to make a new copy. Some of the values can be functions. 2016-08-26T14:03:34Z Grue``: something something continuations 2016-08-26T14:04:01Z warweasle: Grue``: Something, something monads. 2016-08-26T14:04:16Z isoraqathedh: Yeah, I think it's about right. I'm just surprised it's not default behaviour, but I guess I'm biased since I first learnt of such things in python where "import θ as φ" is as simple as things get. 2016-08-26T14:04:41Z isoraqathedh: No matter, it's easily worked out. 2016-08-26T14:06:01Z Grue``: it's a pretty common opinion that package system in CL has flaws 2016-08-26T14:11:00Z pareidolia joined #lisp 2016-08-26T14:11:26Z rpg: Grue``: It's pretty clear that a NICKNAME shouldn't be a global, context-independent property. 2016-08-26T14:12:51Z ramky quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-08-26T14:12:52Z pareidolia: If A is a function that returns a second value, and I collect like (LIST (A sth) (A sthelse) (A etc)) is there a tidy way to collect the second values as well? I can think of a macro, but I'm hoping for some idiom 2016-08-26T14:14:14Z beach: clhs m-v-l 2016-08-26T14:14:14Z specbot: Matches: multiple-value-list, multiple-values-limit. 2016-08-26T14:14:26Z beach: clhs multiple-value-list 2016-08-26T14:14:26Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_mult_1.htm 2016-08-26T14:14:48Z Grue``: (mapcar (lambda (x) (multiple-value-list (A x))) args) 2016-08-26T14:14:52Z sellout- quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-08-26T14:15:02Z z3r0_ joined #lisp 2016-08-26T14:15:03Z scymtym__ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-08-26T14:15:19Z beach: pareidolia: It depends a bit on the context, and on how sensitive your code is to consing. 2016-08-26T14:15:37Z pareidolia: What's the problem with consing? 2016-08-26T14:16:07Z beach: If you care about a list being created first to hold the multiple values, only to get thrown away when you build the global list. 2016-08-26T14:16:26Z pareidolia: Not sensitive at all 2016-08-26T14:16:29Z beach: Also, you didn't say whether you want a nested list or a one-level list with all values. 2016-08-26T14:18:09Z pareidolia: Ideally two flat lists :) 2016-08-26T14:18:57Z beach: That's a bit trickier, but certainly doable. 2016-08-26T14:19:50Z pareidolia: Multiple value functions always make me uneasy since I like them in the standard library, but when I use them myself things become cumbersome 2016-08-26T14:20:20Z beach: pareidolia: Do you have a small number of known calls to A or do you have an unknown list of arguments each of which should be supplied to a call to A? 2016-08-26T14:20:27Z phoe joined #lisp 2016-08-26T14:20:53Z Xathereal quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-08-26T14:21:05Z beach: pareidolia: As in, are the "sth", "sthelse", and "etc" known directly in the code, or are they elements of a list? 2016-08-26T14:21:12Z pareidolia: Known, the former 2016-08-26T14:22:16Z beach: (m-v-b (x1 y1) (a sth) (m-v-b (x2 y2) (a sthelese) (m-v-b (x3 y3) (a etc) (values (list x1 x2 x3) (list y1 y2 y3))))) 2016-08-26T14:22:37Z beach: Not pretty, but workable. 2016-08-26T14:23:16Z beach: It will be less ugly when indented properly. 2016-08-26T14:23:23Z pareidolia: You get the luxury of calling it m-v-b :P 2016-08-26T14:23:35Z beach: I know, cheating a bit. 2016-08-26T14:23:45Z beach: It will take four lines of code. 2016-08-26T14:23:52Z pareidolia: Conceptually though 2016-08-26T14:24:16Z pareidolia: I'm sometimes wondering whether too many m-v-bs is some kind of code smell 2016-08-26T14:24:50Z beach: If that's what you need to do, then I don't see a way around it. 2016-08-26T14:25:18Z pareidolia: In other languages I always feel strongly whether something passes or not, but with CL much trepidation 2016-08-26T14:26:02Z beach: Maybe Common Lisp requires more time to become experienced. 2016-08-26T14:26:18Z pareidolia: I need to spend more time reading the code in my libraries 2016-08-26T14:26:24Z phoe: I can imagine a MULTIPLE-MULTIPLE-VALUE-BIND. 2016-08-26T14:26:31Z pareidolia: .... 2016-08-26T14:26:33Z phoe: m-m-v-b. 2016-08-26T14:26:50Z pareidolia: You're right, I'm barely cultured 2016-08-26T14:26:50Z Th30n joined #lisp 2016-08-26T14:27:27Z phoe: (m-m-v-b ((x1 y1) (a sth) (x2 y2) (a sthelse) (x3 y3) (a etc)) (values (list x1 x2 x3) (list y1 y2 y3)) 2016-08-26T14:27:30Z phoe: Somewhat shorter. 2016-08-26T14:27:40Z phoe: My two "m-" to be precise. 2016-08-26T14:28:35Z |3b|: sjl: the only implementation supported by my package-local-nicknames already has it built-in 2016-08-26T14:29:19Z z3r0_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-08-26T14:29:33Z beach: phoe: If you allow yourself to introduce new stuff, you can always do (f (a sth) (a sthelse) (a etc)). 2016-08-26T14:30:26Z |3b|: sjl: i think one other implementation also added it based on sbcl, maybe abcl? 2016-08-26T14:31:47Z phoe: beach: yes, but why? 2016-08-26T14:32:14Z phoe: M-M-V-B would be far more useful than a function whose only function is to zip two value-lists. 2016-08-26T14:32:51Z blub: premature abstraction 2016-08-26T14:33:23Z beach: phoe: Correct. Now give me the general function for computing the trade-off between conciseness and generality? Or do you want to start an endless debate based on each person having a different such function in mind? 2016-08-26T14:33:51Z gremish joined #lisp 2016-08-26T14:34:20Z beach: "Mine is more general" "Mine is shorter" "But yours is not general enough" "But yours is too long". 2016-08-26T14:34:38Z phoe: beach: I don't know. M-M-V-B sounds like a sane generalization of M-V-B for me when someone would otherwise need to write multiple M-V-Bs just to get enough variables. 2016-08-26T14:34:59Z phoe: beach: there's no point of debating that. M-M-V-B just looks sane to me; a totally different function would look sane for someone else perhaps. 2016-08-26T14:35:10Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-08-26T14:35:22Z beach: Yes, that's what I mean. 2016-08-26T14:36:03Z sjl: |3b|: yeah, it's a really useful idea... I wish more implementations supported it 2016-08-26T14:36:25Z sjl: because yeah, like isoraqathedh mentioned this is package/module 101 stuff in most other modern languages 2016-08-26T14:37:10Z |3b|: sjl: feel free to try to convince other vendors/implementors :) 2016-08-26T14:37:36Z phoe: beach: again, it's more of an application question. 2016-08-26T14:38:13Z phoe: If someone writes 3+ M-V-Bs in a row just to work with many multiple values, I guess that M-M-V-B macro might be a proper abstraction. 2016-08-26T14:38:13Z pipping: sjl: those modern languages shouldn't brag about their features and show a little respect for their senpai ;) 2016-08-26T14:38:43Z sjl: hah 2016-08-26T14:38:57Z phoe: pareidolia: but, well, I think I could write you a M-M-V-B. Should I? I got some time since it's kraklisp time now. 2016-08-26T14:39:01Z edgar-rft uses EACH-AND-EVERY-VALUE-PRECAUTIONALLY-BIND-ON-STORE 2016-08-26T14:39:25Z sjl: |3b|: how sbcl-specific is the stuff in https://github.com/3b/package-local-nicknames/blob/master/sbcl.lisp ? 2016-08-26T14:39:57Z phoe: edgar-rft: sounds sane, do you have the code anywhere? 2016-08-26T14:40:12Z sjl: it does (in-package :sb-impl) at the top so I can't really grep for the sbcl-specific parts... 2016-08-26T14:40:22Z sjl: if only there was a way to nickname a package... 2016-08-26T14:41:26Z |3b|: probably very 2016-08-26T14:41:31Z edgar-rft: phoe: use LET on DO-ALL-SYMBOLS :-) 2016-08-26T14:41:49Z sjl: oh it actually redefines `defpackage` 2016-08-26T14:41:50Z beach: I guess we are going to have that debate after all. 2016-08-26T14:41:54Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-08-26T14:41:55Z |3b|: yeah 2016-08-26T14:42:12Z |3b|: it has to redefine a few CL and internal things i think 2016-08-26T14:42:28Z |3b|: and probably not in a way that would match the internals of other implementations 2016-08-26T14:42:30Z rpg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-08-26T14:43:22Z gremish: ahh it's a wonderful day 2016-08-26T14:44:36Z smokeink joined #lisp 2016-08-26T14:44:40Z edgar-rft: what I wanted to say is that such constructs may make sense in some special cases but surely not in general usage 2016-08-26T14:44:56Z sjl: |3b|: would it be easier to just implement the non-defpackage interface that sbcl lists http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Package_002dLocal-Nicknames 2016-08-26T14:45:25Z |3b|: and i think i designed that patch based on trying to minimize modifications rather than other criteria, so might want to do it differently anyway in a 'real' implementation 2016-08-26T14:45:26Z sjl: like, it's nice to have :local-nicknames in (defpackage ...) but I could live with having to do (add-package-nicknames ...) after my defpackage form 2016-08-26T14:45:28Z warweasle: What's the correct way to clone a CLOS object? 2016-08-26T14:46:07Z sjl: that would give me 95% of the convenience, and if it only comes at a fraction of the cost... 2016-08-26T14:46:21Z |3b|: sjl: you'd still need the reader modified, so at that point might as well overwrite defpackage as well 2016-08-26T14:46:58Z |3b|: (or if using a completely separate reader, add a package to :use instead of CL that includes the modified functions) 2016-08-26T14:47:37Z beach: warweasle: There is no correct way. It all depends on the application. 2016-08-26T14:47:45Z sjl: yeah I suppose so 2016-08-26T14:47:58Z beach: warweasle: I suggest you read the pages by Kent Pitman. 2016-08-26T14:48:36Z beach: warweasle: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/PS/EQUAL.html 2016-08-26T14:48:54Z |3b|: (defmethod clone (object) (error "don't know how to clone ~s"(type-of object)))? 2016-08-26T14:49:32Z |3b|: though even then there might be more than 1 'correct' answer for a given type 2016-08-26T14:49:41Z beach: warweasle: If the object is a person, do you clone the list of children too? And each child? And the company the person works for? And the country in which the company is located? 2016-08-26T14:50:17Z |3b| 's example would have been foreign resources 2016-08-26T14:50:47Z pareidolia: There's no clone method like in Java though 2016-08-26T14:50:54Z slyrus joined #lisp 2016-08-26T14:50:54Z pareidolia: (Which makes a shallow copy) 2016-08-26T14:51:04Z warweasle: beach: Thanks. 2016-08-26T14:51:27Z warweasle: I didn't want to miss something obvious. 2016-08-26T14:51:33Z pareidolia: I know the feeling 2016-08-26T14:51:34Z beach: pareidolia: That's because cloning is such a very very strange thing to do. 2016-08-26T14:52:23Z pareidolia: Depends, doesn't it? 2016-08-26T14:52:31Z beach: pareidolia: Before, you had a single person "Bill" in your system. Now you have two "Bill"s. What if the first "Bill" has his address changed? Where does the second "Bill" live? 2016-08-26T14:52:39Z beach: Do they have to pay rent twice? 2016-08-26T14:52:47Z pareidolia: If you're assuming some domain model 2016-08-26T14:53:12Z beach: Common Lisp is very much based on object identity, which is very sane. 2016-08-26T14:53:17Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-08-26T14:53:21Z warweasle: beach: Well, I need two instances of an enemy. So it would be best to have a template which stamps them out. 2016-08-26T14:53:30Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-08-26T14:53:46Z beach: warweasle: That is a very different thing. 2016-08-26T14:53:56Z warweasle: beach: I just thought of it. 2016-08-26T14:54:03Z beach: warweasle: Two enemies is not the same thing as two copies of one and the same enemy. 2016-08-26T14:54:29Z warweasle: beach: It is if I want to share the mesh, animation and other data. 2016-08-26T14:54:55Z warweasle: beach: Or do I not understand? 2016-08-26T14:55:47Z djinni`_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-08-26T14:56:26Z sjl: warweasle: wanting (copy-enemy foo) to produce a new object bar that has its own distinct e.g. health and coordinates, but refers to the same in-memory mesh and animation data is a reasonable thing 2016-08-26T14:56:37Z beach: I suspect you have a use case (which I don't understand) that is very different from the typical situation of most applications. So therefore, you have to come up with your copying functions yourself, since the programming model was not created to accomplish copying. 2016-08-26T14:56:39Z sjl: but there's no way Common Lisp could know that's what you want for your arbitrary struct 2016-08-26T14:56:52Z raydeejay: warweasle: perhaps https://github.com/zkat/sheeple ? 2016-08-26T14:57:57Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2016-08-26T14:58:00Z warweasle: raydeejay: I'm not sure of anything named POOP. 2016-08-26T14:58:14Z beach: raydeejay: No object system in the world can guess what parts of an object should be copied for a particular application. 2016-08-26T14:58:31Z Fade: I think sheeple was written to define a game; it defines a prototype based object system. 2016-08-26T14:58:31Z Grue``: just make sure that (make-instance 'enemy) does all the necessary job to create an enemy 2016-08-26T14:58:33Z beach: raydeejay: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/PS/EQUAL.html again 2016-08-26T14:58:47Z Fade: which may have semantics closer to what you're looking for, give or take. 2016-08-26T14:58:57Z raydeejay: ^ 2016-08-26T14:58:59Z Grue``: then if you need another enemy, make a new instance 2016-08-26T14:59:06Z Fade: https://github.com/zkat/sheeple 2016-08-26T14:59:30Z warweasle: If I make a clone function, that should be good enough. As long as others understand it. 2016-08-26T14:59:58Z raydeejay: plus, prototype-based is closer to the original OOP idea anyway (which is about neither classes nor prototypes) 2016-08-26T15:00:41Z iskander_work quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-08-26T15:01:45Z smithzv: warweasle: I think what you are looking for is a simple way to create a new object that happens to have many of the same slot values as another. Perhaps there is just a difference in terminology, i.e. this isn't a clone but just a syntactic shortcut? 2016-08-26T15:02:05Z warweasle: smithzv: I think you are right. 2016-08-26T15:02:46Z smithzv: I actually wrote Modf to do in part that, it does sort of handle arbitrary objects using MOP, you can look at the code there, but I doubt that you would want to use it in performance critical code. 2016-08-26T15:03:44Z scymtym joined #lisp 2016-08-26T15:04:43Z sg|polyneikes joined #lisp 2016-08-26T15:05:29Z beach: warweasle: Sorry for my ignorance, but let's say that this enemy has a "list of tools" or something. Should this list be copied as well, or is it OK if a change in the list of one of the clones results in the identical change in the other? 2016-08-26T15:05:59Z sg|polyneikes quit (Client Quit) 2016-08-26T15:06:20Z sjl: |3b|: https://github.com/avodonosov/local-package-aliases is another, easier, kludgy approach: just uses a reader macro char you have to prefix all thenicknames with 2016-08-26T15:06:47Z beach: warweasle: If the list of tools must be copied, there is no automatic procedure possible to guess what parts of the clone should be copied and what parts should be shared. 2016-08-26T15:07:17Z Th30n quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-08-26T15:07:42Z jerme joined #lisp 2016-08-26T15:09:02Z djinni` joined #lisp 2016-08-26T15:09:18Z smithzv: beach: I'm not sure that matters. He will 'copy the object' to get most of the class filled out, then he will add a new tool belt for the newly created object, which will be fresh. 2016-08-26T15:10:00Z raydeejay: beach: if you have data inheritance then you can tell if an object has a property itself or delegates to another 2016-08-26T15:10:21Z scymtym__ joined #lisp 2016-08-26T15:10:37Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-08-26T15:11:00Z sellout- joined #lisp 2016-08-26T15:11:12Z mmos joined #lisp 2016-08-26T15:11:23Z phoe: pareidolia: http://paste.lisp.org/display/324302 2016-08-26T15:13:25Z kraison quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-08-26T15:13:59Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-08-26T15:14:51Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-08-26T15:15:23Z sellout- quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-08-26T15:15:43Z knicklux quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-08-26T15:16:30Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-08-26T15:16:36Z warweasle is now known as warweasle_afk 2016-08-26T15:16:44Z sellout- joined #lisp 2016-08-26T15:16:58Z kdas__ joined #lisp 2016-08-26T15:17:06Z |3b|: sjl: yeah, reader macro is reasonable, but i mostly want it for 1-2 character nicknames, and 1 more char is a bit more overhead in that case :) 2016-08-26T15:17:52Z |3b|: things that i would have :USEd if not for risks of changes/conflicts/accidental overwrites 2016-08-26T15:19:06Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-08-26T15:19:42Z flamebeard quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-08-26T15:19:46Z mathi_aihtam quit (Client Quit) 2016-08-26T15:20:30Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-08-26T15:21:18Z sjl: yeah 2016-08-26T15:21:47Z tfb quit 2016-08-26T15:22:05Z BusFactor1 joined #lisp 2016-08-26T15:22:38Z racketschemer joined #lisp 2016-08-26T15:23:12Z racketschemer: Hi! 2016-08-26T15:23:55Z Jesin joined #lisp 2016-08-26T15:25:36Z phoe: Hey racketschemer 2016-08-26T15:25:49Z phoe: Do you use Racket Scheme? 2016-08-26T15:25:54Z racketschemer: yes. 2016-08-26T15:26:05Z k3rn31 quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2016-08-26T15:26:06Z kdas__ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-08-26T15:26:07Z racketschemer: and i'm planning to move to sbcl 2016-08-26T15:26:17Z phoe: Oh! I see. 2016-08-26T15:26:31Z kdas__ joined #lisp 2016-08-26T15:26:56Z phoe: Need any help? 2016-08-26T15:27:21Z phoe: Oh, right - https://github.com/phoe/m-m-v-b - half an hour well spent. 2016-08-26T15:28:00Z racketschemer: I just wanted to be sure whether sbcl was the best choice for performance. 2016-08-26T15:28:22Z racketschemer: :-) 2016-08-26T15:28:24Z phoe: :P 2016-08-26T15:28:28Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-08-26T15:28:28Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-08-26T15:28:48Z phoe: Among FOSS implementations, SBCL optimizes the best, I think. 2016-08-26T15:29:03Z phoe: It does have slightly longer compile times but these are fairly short in total nowadays. 2016-08-26T15:29:19Z racketschemer: FOSS = Free Open Source? 2016-08-26T15:29:22Z phoe: yes 2016-08-26T15:29:41Z smithzv: phoe: is that m-m-v-b* or m-m-v-b? 2016-08-26T15:29:42Z racketschemer Cool :-) 2016-08-26T15:29:49Z phoe: smithzv: *? 2016-08-26T15:29:50Z racketschemer: m-m-v-b 2016-08-26T15:29:52Z phoe: Why the star? 2016-08-26T15:30:01Z smithzv: Do the bindings happen in parallel? 2016-08-26T15:30:11Z phoe: ...no, they're sequential. 2016-08-26T15:30:21Z phoe: Good remark. 2016-08-26T15:30:35Z racketschemer: another half hour well spend: https://github.com/lispgames/lispgames.github.io/wiki 2016-08-26T15:30:48Z smithzv: Yeah, it is always more complicated to get that parallel binding worked out 2016-08-26T15:30:48Z SeanP quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-08-26T15:30:59Z phoe: smithzv: how would that even work? 2016-08-26T15:31:16Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-08-26T15:31:22Z phoe: Binding to gensyms first and then to proper variables? 2016-08-26T15:31:38Z smithzv: To tell the truth, I usually never get around to it and just put a star at the end 2016-08-26T15:32:18Z phoe: This will be more complicated indeed. 2016-08-26T15:32:31Z SeanP joined #lisp 2016-08-26T15:32:40Z phoe: To hell with it, I'll do it another day. 2016-08-26T15:32:41Z smithzv: but yes, I guess you bind gensyms and then do a symbol-macrolet or something to replace the bindings in the body? Something like that? 2016-08-26T15:33:07Z racketschemer: Goodbye, thanks :-) 2016-08-26T15:33:09Z racketschemer left #lisp 2016-08-26T15:33:12Z stardiviner quit (Quit: Code, Sex, Just fucking world.) 2016-08-26T15:33:24Z phoe: See you 2016-08-26T15:33:32Z phoe: smithzv: eww 2016-08-26T15:33:36Z phoe: I don't want symbol-macrolet 2016-08-26T15:33:55Z phoe: this is a way to break stuff 2016-08-26T15:34:03Z smithzv: well, maybe you don't need it. I haven't thought about this in a while 2016-08-26T15:34:12Z phoe: There is a way to avoid it 2016-08-26T15:34:16Z phoe: I just need to think about it a bit more. 2016-08-26T15:34:22Z phoe: Oh, right 2016-08-26T15:34:25Z phoe: Basically split the macro in two parts. 2016-08-26T15:34:37Z phoe: One, that generates the in-depth structure and passes generated gensyms to the other one 2016-08-26T15:34:49Z phoe: And the other one, that binds lexical variables to gensyms' values when everything is set up 2016-08-26T15:35:03Z phoe: So there's no symbol-macrolet required. 2016-08-26T15:35:16Z yaun joined #lisp 2016-08-26T15:35:23Z smithzv: just a let, ok 2016-08-26T15:35:29Z phoe: Ayup 2016-08-26T15:35:30Z Bike joined #lisp 2016-08-26T15:35:38Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-08-26T15:35:48Z phoe: And, using a macro, you can easily construct that let once you have your variable-gensym pairs. 2016-08-26T15:36:01Z phoe: `(let ,pairs ,@body) 2016-08-26T15:36:27Z phoe: And you can accumulate PAIRS through recursive macro evaluation. 2016-08-26T15:36:46Z phoe: Basically, passing them as an argument to consecutive iterations. 2016-08-26T15:37:00Z smithzv: yeah, this is sounding familiar 2016-08-26T15:37:18Z phoe: And the final one can construct the proper LET in the way I pointed out above. 2016-08-26T15:38:12Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-08-26T15:40:04Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-08-26T15:40:07Z k3rn31 joined #lisp 2016-08-26T15:41:23Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2016-08-26T15:44:11Z pareidolia: Just like the guy in a video I saw about emacs I feel like a genius whenever I use M-? 2016-08-26T15:44:14Z dddddd joined #lisp 2016-08-26T15:44:27Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-08-26T15:45:53Z prole joined #lisp 2016-08-26T15:46:33Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-08-26T15:47:31Z jasom: phoe: have you seen rutilsx.bind ? 2016-08-26T15:48:13Z norfumpit joined #lisp 2016-08-26T15:49:38Z kraison joined #lisp 2016-08-26T15:51:55Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-08-26T15:54:33Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-08-26T15:54:50Z phoe: jasom: I have, along with metabang-bind. 2016-08-26T15:55:55Z gingerale joined #lisp 2016-08-26T16:00:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: doesn't let+ also offer something like this? 2016-08-26T16:00:26Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-08-26T16:03:07Z phoe: there's a lot of libraries that offer stuff like that 2016-08-26T16:03:22Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-08-26T16:03:30Z phoe: but again, I'm kidding myself if I think I wrote it for anything other than self-training 2016-08-26T16:03:45Z am55 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-08-26T16:03:49Z phoe: and perhaps gathering lots of tiny things I wrote over at my github. 2016-08-26T16:08:08Z jasom: writing things can be a great way to learn. That was my sole purpose for writing plush. 2016-08-26T16:09:18Z jasom: which reminds me, I need to finish up job management; I'm pretty sure I still only think I know how sigchld, wait &ct. work. If I can get job management working then I will actually have a good grip on that. 2016-08-26T16:10:26Z jasom: OTOH I know way more about bourne shell syntax since managing to write this: https://github.com/jasom/plush/blob/master/plush-parser.lisp 2016-08-26T16:10:43Z yaun left #lisp 2016-08-26T16:11:18Z phoe: that's a pretty huge file 2016-08-26T16:12:08Z jasom: ~ 1.5 KLOC, not too terrible 2016-08-26T16:13:59Z DeadTrickster quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-08-26T16:14:14Z jasom: I also put each node of the parsing grammar on its own line, so it's not super dense (e.g. https://github.com/jasom/plush/blob/master/plush-parser.lisp#L236) 2016-08-26T16:15:23Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2016-08-26T16:17:09Z mastokley joined #lisp 2016-08-26T16:17:38Z HeyFlash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-08-26T16:18:57Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-08-26T16:20:08Z kmb joined #lisp 2016-08-26T16:22:21Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2016-08-26T16:23:35Z scymtym__: jasom: maybe https://github.com/scymtym/parser.common-rules has some useful things for your grammar 2016-08-26T16:24:08Z robotoad joined #lisp 2016-08-26T16:24:29Z scymtym__: it contains things i kept rewriting in most esrap grammars 2016-08-26T16:25:54Z warweasle_afk quit (Quit: away for a while) 2016-08-26T16:27:12Z kdas__ is now known as kushal 2016-08-26T16:27:18Z kushal quit (Changing host) 2016-08-26T16:27:18Z kushal joined #lisp 2016-08-26T16:28:00Z jasom: scymtym__: yeah I've written every single one of those anchors at least once 2016-08-26T16:29:30Z scymtym__: jasom: how did you write ? 2016-08-26T16:30:47Z alms_clozure quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-08-26T16:30:49Z jasom: scymtym__: I'll have to see if I can find that one 2016-08-26T16:31:05Z alms_clozure joined #lisp 2016-08-26T16:31:29Z jasom: I assume I needed it for nyaml 2016-08-26T16:32:40Z sellout- quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-08-26T16:32:55Z jasom: nyaml also included a very slightly hackish implementation of parameterized rools for esrap, which let me implement the yaml spec more directly 2016-08-26T16:33:26Z plertrood quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-08-26T16:33:49Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-08-26T16:33:54Z scymtym__: yeah, parametrized rules are definitely one of the things i would like to add 2016-08-26T16:35:18Z jasom: https://github.com/jasom/nyaml/blob/master/nyaml.lisp#L353 <-- there's an example of a parameterized rule that calls another paremeterized rule; feedback on syntax would be nice if I were to pull this out into a library 2016-08-26T16:35:36Z rszeno joined #lisp 2016-08-26T16:35:53Z scymtym__: the thing is not terribly important. don't waste too much time trying to find it 2016-08-26T16:36:05Z jasom: I may have just checked for the position being 0 2016-08-26T16:36:20Z jasom: which doesn't work (for some definitions of work) if you give an input offset. 2016-08-26T16:36:25Z scymtym__: adding a DEFRULE with a lambda-list is what i thought, too 2016-08-26T16:36:36Z scymtym__: beyond that, i'm still experimenting 2016-08-26T16:37:11Z zacts joined #lisp 2016-08-26T16:38:03Z jasom: The way the syntax of mine is the first body form is evaluated with the lambda-list bound in order to produce a rule. normal rules work as normal and parameterized rules are generated with the form (prule &rest args) 2016-08-26T16:38:05Z scymtym__: actually, that may be a problem with the "official" lookbehind as well since rules do not have access to the start position 2016-08-26T16:38:21Z w37 left #lisp 2016-08-26T16:38:40Z jasom: It is certainly possible to argue that you aren't at the start of the input ever if the start position is non-zero 2016-08-26T16:38:56Z jasom: it is ambiguous what the "input" 2016-08-26T16:39:04Z jasom: is 2016-08-26T16:39:06Z scymtym__: sure 2016-08-26T16:39:21Z scymtym__: i may have to clarify the documentation in any case 2016-08-26T16:40:20Z jasom: I've considered making prule not evaluate the rule-name argument so I that (prule 'foo bar) becomes (prule foo bar) for easier typing, but I tend towards not making something less powerful in order to save a single character. 2016-08-26T16:40:34Z m00natic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-08-26T16:41:31Z jasom: perhaps an optional reader macro for something like [foo bar] => (prule 'foo bar) 2016-08-26T16:43:51Z scymtym__: not sure which one is better 2016-08-26T16:44:44Z scymtym__: i kind of wish the canonical application syntax wasn't already used for semantic predicates 2016-08-26T16:44:46Z jasom: also currently there is no way for a parameterized rule to be directly called from a non-parameterized rule; you need to make a function that calls it. 2016-08-26T16:45:47Z jasom: https://github.com/jasom/nyaml/blob/master/nyaml.lisp#L1551 <-- example of indirectly calling parameterized rule from non-parameterized rule. 2016-08-26T16:46:05Z scymtym__: you also cannot pass parameters from one parameterized rule through "normal" rules to another parameterized rule, right? 2016-08-26T16:46:30Z jasom: scymtym__: I don't know how that would ever work 2016-08-26T16:46:46Z jasom: scymtym__: I couldn't even express that in a general grammar with parsing rules... 2016-08-26T16:47:58Z jasom: I suppose you could use :around to store the parameters 2016-08-26T16:47:59Z scymtym__: i was thinking of something like special variables 2016-08-26T16:48:24Z dddddd quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-08-26T16:48:33Z scymtym__: no, :around is either parse-time or result-construction-time, depending on the presence of semantic predicates 2016-08-26T16:48:44Z scymtym__: :around is basically broken 2016-08-26T16:48:57Z jasom: oh, is it not possible to use it to manage symbol tables? That's sad 2016-08-26T16:49:01Z dddddd joined #lisp 2016-08-26T16:49:21Z scymtym__: it is, but you have to be very careful to not force result-construction prematurely 2016-08-26T16:49:40Z jasom: ah 2016-08-26T16:49:58Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2016-08-26T16:50:36Z jasom: scymtym__: the body of a parameterized rule can be different depending on the presence of dynamic variables, so I don't see why you couldn't communicate that way. 2016-08-26T16:51:41Z mastokley quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-08-26T16:52:32Z scymtym__: true 2016-08-26T16:54:07Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-08-26T16:54:17Z jasom: under the hood each parameterized rule is just like an esrap function with extra arguments after the 3 standard ones. Then (prule foo ...) generates rules that are FLET bound to gensyms and called as (function) nodes 2016-08-26T16:54:45Z scymtym__: between parameterized rules, the equivalent of special variables and macros for rule expressions, i find it difficult to choose the right concepts 2016-08-26T16:55:52Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-08-26T16:56:39Z scymtym__: are the {add,remove}-rule pairs at runtime just for the cache, then? 2016-08-26T16:56:50Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2016-08-26T16:56:56Z jasom: sorry, not flet, but (setf fdefinition) and (fmakunbound) 2016-08-26T16:57:29Z jasom: I wrote this so long ago, I'm forgeting some details 2016-08-26T16:58:44Z jasom: it does a setf fdefinition, add-rule, run the parse, fmakunbound, remove-rule 2016-08-26T16:59:36Z scymtym__: that's what i thought 2016-08-26T16:59:41Z jasom: that ensured I wouldn't leak rules over a parse. Getting caching right is hard 2016-08-26T17:00:11Z jasom: I agree that some form of memoization might be useful here. 2016-08-26T17:01:08Z scymtym__: i would like to allow cache keys to optionally be (rule position ) instead of the current (rule position) 2016-08-26T17:01:28Z jasom: scymtym__: but lisp doesn't have hash-tables that hash by similarity 2016-08-26T17:01:45Z davsebamse quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-08-26T17:01:47Z jasom: because what you probably want is that the bindings lists are similar, then the rule expansion should also be similar. 2016-08-26T17:02:22Z jasom: any caching naturally imposes some reduction in flexibility (even if it's stupid flexibility like a rule that returns a random parse tree each time it's invoked) 2016-08-26T17:03:31Z davsebamse joined #lisp 2016-08-26T17:03:31Z scymtym__: that problem already exists with function terminals 2016-08-26T17:03:37Z jasom: I suppose non-string non-list aggregates would be unusual enough that #'equal might be good 2016-08-26T17:03:49Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-08-26T17:04:26Z jasom: scymtym__: I use gensyms for my function names specifically to avoid that problem 2016-08-26T17:05:03Z scymtym__: calling parse from a function terminal also starts with a fresh cache unless you request the opposite 2016-08-26T17:05:23Z zacts quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-08-26T17:05:44Z Th30n joined #lisp 2016-08-26T17:06:01Z mrcom quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-08-26T17:06:02Z scymtym__: but yes, that doesn't prevent the rule containing the function terminal from being cached 2016-08-26T17:07:24Z tristam__ joined #lisp 2016-08-26T17:08:08Z tristam__ is now known as Tristam 2016-08-26T17:08:34Z Tristam quit (Changing host) 2016-08-26T17:08:34Z Tristam joined #lisp 2016-08-26T17:09:04Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-08-26T17:09:40Z Trystam quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-08-26T17:11:19Z wheelsucker joined #lisp 2016-08-26T17:11:41Z varjag joined #lisp 2016-08-26T17:12:22Z rudolfochrist joined #lisp 2016-08-26T17:13:33Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-08-26T17:13:54Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2016-08-26T17:18:51Z mastokley joined #lisp 2016-08-26T17:19:44Z asc232 joined #lisp 2016-08-26T17:20:12Z gremish quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2016-08-26T17:22:16Z oleo: ewwww, how do you implement dfa's via macros ? 2016-08-26T17:22:22Z oleo: lol 2016-08-26T17:22:48Z oleo: wth, and how do i recognize it even ...... 2016-08-26T17:23:01Z oleo: owww man man man ....... 2016-08-26T17:23:12Z kami` joined #lisp 2016-08-26T17:23:15Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-08-26T17:23:27Z kami`: Good evening #lisp. 2016-08-26T17:23:54Z oleo: evening 2016-08-26T17:24:47Z prole quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-08-26T17:25:52Z kami` is now known as kami 2016-08-26T17:27:44Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-08-26T17:27:44Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-08-26T17:28:42Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2016-08-26T17:35:37Z przl joined #lisp 2016-08-26T17:40:49Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-08-26T17:40:59Z ovenpasta joined #lisp 2016-08-26T17:42:19Z mastokley quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-08-26T17:43:02Z akersof quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-08-26T17:47:32Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-08-26T17:51:51Z phoe quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-08-26T17:58:10Z toogley quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-08-26T18:00:18Z asc232 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-08-26T18:01:10Z shka_ joined #lisp 2016-08-26T18:08:53Z scymtym__ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-08-26T18:12:44Z k3rn31 quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2016-08-26T18:14:15Z andrei-n quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-08-26T18:15:02Z yrk joined #lisp 2016-08-26T18:15:27Z yrk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-08-26T18:17:17Z jerme quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2016-08-26T18:21:11Z bocaneri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-08-26T18:21:33Z Th30n quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-08-26T18:23:47Z asc232 joined #lisp 2016-08-26T18:26:57Z manuel_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-08-26T18:28:02Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2016-08-26T18:28:50Z andrei-n joined #lisp 2016-08-26T18:29:34Z manuel_ quit (Read error: No route to host) 2016-08-26T18:31:56Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-08-26T18:34:35Z strelox quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-08-26T18:36:04Z jerme joined #lisp 2016-08-26T18:40:09Z Orion3k joined #lisp 2016-08-26T18:45:27Z strelox joined #lisp 2016-08-26T18:46:37Z przl joined #lisp 2016-08-26T18:50:13Z warweasle joined #lisp 2016-08-26T18:50:50Z zacts joined #lisp 2016-08-26T18:50:55Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-08-26T18:57:16Z Th30n joined #lisp 2016-08-26T18:58:19Z grimsley joined #lisp 2016-08-26T19:00:43Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-08-26T19:01:43Z jerme quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2016-08-26T19:01:44Z k3rn31 joined #lisp 2016-08-26T19:01:51Z kmb quit (Quit: kmb) 2016-08-26T19:03:07Z zacts quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-08-26T19:04:44Z milanj quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-08-26T19:06:00Z kmb joined #lisp 2016-08-26T19:07:42Z jdz quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2016-08-26T19:07:50Z jdz_ joined #lisp 2016-08-26T19:11:13Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-08-26T19:14:01Z programisto quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-08-26T19:14:42Z programisto joined #lisp 2016-08-26T19:15:11Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-08-26T19:20:00Z slyrus joined #lisp 2016-08-26T19:22:21Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2016-08-26T19:25:34Z k3rn31 quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2016-08-26T19:28:58Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-08-26T19:29:34Z warweasle quit (Quit: gone) 2016-08-26T19:30:00Z Xizor joined #lisp 2016-08-26T19:32:06Z pareidolia quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-08-26T19:39:29Z rudolfochrist quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-08-26T19:41:11Z lok joined #lisp 2016-08-26T19:42:02Z phoe joined #lisp 2016-08-26T19:42:42Z lok: anyone uses api? 2016-08-26T19:43:06Z milanj joined #lisp 2016-08-26T19:43:51Z dim: api? 2016-08-26T19:46:27Z scymtym joined #lisp 2016-08-26T19:46:32Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-08-26T19:47:00Z lok: applicaton program interface dim 2016-08-26T19:47:22Z dwchandler: every day 2016-08-26T19:47:43Z lok: dwchandler: any one from this list ? http://www.programmableweb.com/category/all/apis 2016-08-26T19:49:12Z dwchandler: ah, not likely. I work more on plumbing 2016-08-26T19:49:14Z dim: lok: I though you meant a specific CL lib named “api” 2016-08-26T19:49:29Z dim: otherwise, your question is the same as asking if we still write code 2016-08-26T19:49:46Z milanj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-08-26T19:54:12Z jerme joined #lisp 2016-08-26T19:55:16Z edgar-rft: For web programmers it's not self-evident that they need to be able to write code themselves, we all know what happened when left-tab disappeared. 2016-08-26T19:56:03Z dwchandler: pad 2016-08-26T19:56:27Z edgar-rft: ah, yes, left-pad :-) 2016-08-26T19:57:23Z asdfa joined #lisp 2016-08-26T19:57:52Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-08-26T19:59:44Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2016-08-26T19:59:57Z lok left #lisp 2016-08-26T20:00:25Z asdfa is now known as novavis 2016-08-26T20:00:55Z BusFactor1 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-08-26T20:01:27Z Th30n quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-08-26T20:01:53Z JuanDaugherty: or the status bar 2016-08-26T20:02:16Z XachX_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-08-26T20:02:34Z mjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-08-26T20:02:34Z gz__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-08-26T20:02:43Z alms_clozure quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2016-08-26T20:03:07Z NhanH quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-08-26T20:03:48Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-08-26T20:04:04Z danlentz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-08-26T20:04:54Z mbrock quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-08-26T20:05:29Z makufiru quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-08-26T20:05:53Z novavis quit (Quit: novavis) 2016-08-26T20:06:07Z asdfa joined #lisp 2016-08-26T20:06:10Z asdfa is now known as novavis 2016-08-26T20:06:53Z wildlander joined #lisp 2016-08-26T20:06:53Z wildlander quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-08-26T20:07:11Z novavis quit (Client Quit) 2016-08-26T20:07:20Z billstclair quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-08-26T20:07:55Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-08-26T20:08:29Z KaliLinuxGR quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-08-26T20:09:23Z trebor_dki joined #lisp 2016-08-26T20:13:24Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2016-08-26T20:14:00Z KaliLinuxGR joined #lisp 2016-08-26T20:14:06Z prole joined #lisp 2016-08-26T20:14:36Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-08-26T20:14:37Z asedeno_ joined #lisp 2016-08-26T20:14:49Z novavis joined #lisp 2016-08-26T20:17:30Z velvetcore_ joined #lisp 2016-08-26T20:18:32Z asedeno quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-08-26T20:18:32Z asedeno_ is now known as asedeno 2016-08-26T20:19:06Z novavis left #lisp 2016-08-26T20:20:46Z przl joined #lisp 2016-08-26T20:20:52Z velvetcore quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-08-26T20:20:54Z velvetcore_ is now known as velvetcore 2016-08-26T20:21:20Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-08-26T20:21:29Z novavis joined #lisp 2016-08-26T20:22:39Z pipping: dim: do you still write code? ;) 2016-08-26T20:24:17Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-08-26T20:28:29Z dwchandler: apis are for the weak. go straight to the abi 2016-08-26T20:28:50Z dim: pipping: I do ;-) 2016-08-26T20:31:53Z wildlander joined #lisp 2016-08-26T20:33:27Z mjl joined #lisp 2016-08-26T20:33:52Z NhanH joined #lisp 2016-08-26T20:37:12Z aindilis` quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-08-26T20:38:33Z jerme quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2016-08-26T20:38:36Z Xizor quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-08-26T20:38:39Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-08-26T20:40:29Z JuanDaugherty: pipping, thanks for confirming the attrition/burn out phenomenon by reference 2016-08-26T20:41:13Z Lord_of_Life quit (Excess Flood) 2016-08-26T20:42:02Z alms_clozure joined #lisp 2016-08-26T20:42:02Z gz__ joined #lisp 2016-08-26T20:42:49Z Josh2 joined #lisp 2016-08-26T20:45:41Z deank joined #lisp 2016-08-26T20:45:46Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-08-26T20:47:29Z krasnal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-08-26T20:47:48Z shifty joined #lisp 2016-08-26T20:48:08Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2016-08-26T20:48:53Z ggole quit 2016-08-26T20:50:26Z makufiru joined #lisp 2016-08-26T20:52:10Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2016-08-26T20:52:14Z k3rn31 joined #lisp 2016-08-26T20:54:11Z danlentz joined #lisp 2016-08-26T20:54:20Z mbrock joined #lisp 2016-08-26T20:54:42Z billstclair joined #lisp 2016-08-26T20:55:41Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-08-26T20:56:14Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-08-26T20:57:09Z XachX_ joined #lisp 2016-08-26T20:58:02Z dyelar quit (Client Quit) 2016-08-26T20:59:52Z prole quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2016-08-26T21:00:36Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-08-26T21:04:33Z Lord_of_Life quit (Excess Flood) 2016-08-26T21:04:42Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-08-26T21:06:39Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-08-26T21:10:46Z schjetne joined #lisp 2016-08-26T21:14:07Z k3rn31 quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2016-08-26T21:14:47Z kmb quit (Quit: kmb) 2016-08-26T21:21:17Z kmb joined #lisp 2016-08-26T21:27:55Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-08-26T21:33:37Z wildlander quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2016-08-26T21:39:46Z wildlander joined #lisp 2016-08-26T21:39:46Z wildlander quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-08-26T21:40:35Z wildlander joined #lisp 2016-08-26T21:40:36Z wildlander quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-08-26T21:41:26Z wildlander joined #lisp 2016-08-26T21:41:55Z andrei-n quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-08-26T21:47:51Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2016-08-26T21:47:52Z kami quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-08-26T21:53:14Z MoALTz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-08-26T21:53:50Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-08-26T21:55:00Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-08-26T21:57:36Z strelox` joined #lisp 2016-08-26T21:59:16Z strelox quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2016-08-26T21:59:20Z mrcom joined #lisp 2016-08-26T21:59:36Z mathi_aihtam quit (Client Quit) 2016-08-26T22:02:05Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-08-26T22:07:13Z steelbird quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-08-26T22:07:21Z wheelsucker quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-08-26T22:09:19Z steelbird joined #lisp 2016-08-26T22:11:47Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-08-26T22:12:21Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-08-26T22:13:45Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-08-26T22:13:48Z davsebamse quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-08-26T22:14:12Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-08-26T22:14:56Z davsebamse joined #lisp 2016-08-26T22:15:47Z fkac joined #lisp 2016-08-26T22:16:24Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-08-26T22:16:53Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-08-26T22:19:02Z lambdice joined #lisp 2016-08-26T22:21:08Z _sjs joined #lisp 2016-08-26T22:24:26Z pareidolia joined #lisp 2016-08-26T22:26:50Z madbub quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-08-26T22:26:59Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-08-26T22:27:52Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-08-26T22:28:45Z asc232 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-08-26T22:29:09Z schjetne quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-08-26T22:29:26Z kraison quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-08-26T22:30:09Z novavis` joined #lisp 2016-08-26T22:32:06Z milanj joined #lisp 2016-08-26T22:33:03Z novavis quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-08-26T22:40:09Z pareidolia: dd 2016-08-26T22:40:12Z pareidolia: Oops 2016-08-26T22:42:09Z bitch quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-08-26T22:44:09Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-08-26T22:48:55Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-08-26T22:55:18Z robotoad quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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Anyone want to take a look? http://pastebin.com/unxpPgep 2016-08-26T23:19:50Z davsebamse joined #lisp 2016-08-26T23:20:08Z Bike: why do you multiply them both by one thousand 2016-08-26T23:20:13Z rpg: Why are you using both GET-UNIVERSAL-TIME and INTERNAL-RUN-TIME? 2016-08-26T23:20:23Z pareidolia: milliseconds 2016-08-26T23:20:41Z pareidolia: Oops. I should have real-time 2016-08-26T23:20:54Z pareidolia: Oh. I do have real-time 2016-08-26T23:21:31Z rpg: If it's elapsed time, why don't you just call internal-run-time twice (or universal-time)? 2016-08-26T23:21:49Z jasom: no guarantee that get-internal-real-time uses the same base as get-universal-time 2016-08-26T23:21:55Z pareidolia: Yep 2016-08-26T23:22:08Z rpg: I.e., why isn't this the difference between two readings of the same clock. 2016-08-26T23:22:08Z zacts quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-08-26T23:22:17Z rpg: universal-time is surely seconds. 2016-08-26T23:22:22Z pareidolia: Correct 2016-08-26T23:22:47Z jasom: universal-time is seconds since a well defined epoch. get-internal-real-time is an undefined unit of time since an undefined epoch 2016-08-26T23:22:50Z rpg: internal time is up to the implementation 2016-08-26T23:23:35Z rpg: So why didn't you read internal-real-time at the start of the interval, then read it again at the end, subtract, and convert to whatever time unit you want? 2016-08-26T23:24:05Z pareidolia: I need a time base in milliseconds 2016-08-26T23:24:14Z pareidolia: Look at the mod 2016-08-26T23:24:30Z rpg: pareidolia: I get it, but that doesn't look like elapsed time to me. 2016-08-26T23:24:34Z jasom: pareidolia: consider the case where get-internal-real-time is in milliseconds (for a concrete example) 2016-08-26T23:24:39Z ovenpasta quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-08-26T23:25:22Z zacts joined #lisp 2016-08-26T23:25:24Z makufiru joined #lisp 2016-08-26T23:25:26Z jasom: suppose that get-universal-time interally thinks the time is 1.234 seconds past the minute, and get-internal-real-time thinks it is 0.999 seconds past the minute. Your function will return 1.99 the first time, and then 1.00 1ms later 2016-08-26T23:25:27Z pareidolia: Then it remains so 2016-08-26T23:26:00Z pareidolia: ... 2016-08-26T23:26:09Z danlentz joined #lisp 2016-08-26T23:26:30Z jasom: and in any event there is no guarantee that get-universal-time will increment by one every time get-internal-real-time increments by internal-time-units-per-second (in fact on modern systems with NTP it's highly unlikelyt that this will be true) 2016-08-26T23:26:43Z pareidolia: Yep, that's it 2016-08-26T23:26:56Z rpg: http://pastebin.com/m2tC9Wey 2016-08-26T23:27:30Z pareidolia: rpg: I don't need elapsed time 2016-08-26T23:27:31Z jasom: If you want a monotonically incrementing calendar time, then you can approximate it by subtracting the universal time from the internal-real-time *once* and then adding that offset back in forever on. 2016-08-26T23:27:52Z jasom: however, you will drift from the actual time fairly significanty 2016-08-26T23:28:07Z rpg: pareidolia: But you said at the start of this discussion "some approximation of time passed". 2016-08-26T23:28:19Z rpg: If time passed isn't elapsed time, I don't know what you mean. 2016-08-26T23:28:27Z pareidolia: rpg: I need something like java.lang.System.currentTimeMillis() 2016-08-26T23:28:32Z rpg: passed = elapsed 2016-08-26T23:28:46Z jasom: pareidolia: what are you going to use it for? 2016-08-26T23:28:47Z raydeejay: may I ask for what purppose? 2016-08-26T23:28:49Z mjl joined #lisp 2016-08-26T23:28:49Z raydeejay: heh 2016-08-26T23:28:51Z Josh3 joined #lisp 2016-08-26T23:29:09Z pareidolia: Planning events 2016-08-26T23:29:24Z raydeejay: could you be more vague? XD 2016-08-26T23:29:48Z sjl: so you want (get-universal-time) but with millisecond precision 2016-08-26T23:29:53Z jasom: Do you care about measuring highly precise short intervals, or highly accurate long intervals? 2016-08-26T23:29:54Z pareidolia: Yep 2016-08-26T23:30:15Z Josh2 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-08-26T23:30:15Z Josh3 is now known as Josh2 2016-08-26T23:30:24Z pareidolia: Is both too much to ask for? 2016-08-26T23:30:31Z jasom: note also that currentTimeMillis() is not monotonic on most systems (e.g. leap seconds). 2016-08-26T23:30:47Z rpg: I don't *believe* that there's any way to tie GET-INTERNAL-REAL-TIME to an origin wall-clock time, although I could be wrong. 2016-08-26T23:30:56Z pareidolia: I'm not worrying about leap seconds 2016-08-26T23:31:01Z DeadTrickster quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-08-26T23:31:13Z jasom: pareidolia: high precision times will not be both monotonically increasing and accurate 2016-08-26T23:31:25Z pareidolia: This terminates within a minute http://pastebin.com/cVqcNNzh 1 2016-08-26T23:31:28Z zacts quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-08-26T23:32:13Z jasom: so I suppose: precise, accurate, long interval, choose 2 2016-08-26T23:32:27Z jasom: sorry precise, accurate, monotonic, choose 2 2016-08-26T23:33:10Z pareidolia: It doesn't have to be entirely monotonic 2016-08-26T23:33:17Z Fare joined #lisp 2016-08-26T23:33:18Z pareidolia: But I got hiccups every 10 seconds or so 2016-08-26T23:33:29Z rpg: CFFI + gettimeofday? 2016-08-26T23:33:38Z pareidolia: That's an option 2016-08-26T23:34:39Z jasom: local-time gives you higher precision 2016-08-26T23:34:58Z pareidolia: It actually calls currentTimeMillis on ABCL 2016-08-26T23:35:16Z pareidolia: The subtract-once method sounds interesting for now 2016-08-26T23:35:28Z jasom: I would recommend using local-time instead 2016-08-26T23:35:38Z jasom: the subtract-once is where you care more about monotonic than about accuracy 2016-08-26T23:36:15Z rpg: LOCAL-TIME is only accurate to the second, unless you are on SBCL. 2016-08-26T23:36:29Z pareidolia: Ahem 2016-08-26T23:36:29Z jasom: rpg: wrong 2016-08-26T23:36:36Z XachX_ joined #lisp 2016-08-26T23:36:44Z jasom: (or allegro cmu sbcl abcl (and ccl (not windows))) 2016-08-26T23:36:48Z rpg: jasom: That's what the manual I'm looking at says. It may be out of date, I suppose. 2016-08-26T23:36:54Z pareidolia: m 2016-08-26T23:36:58Z pareidolia: Wow you're fast 2016-08-26T23:36:58Z jasom: rpg: that's the #- for using get-universal-time 2016-08-26T23:37:08Z pareidolia: I have it open right here 2016-08-26T23:37:10Z mbrock joined #lisp 2016-08-26T23:37:30Z jasom: pareidolia: M-. until I got to %get-current-time :) 2016-08-26T23:37:31Z rpg: I have an old copy in a subversion repo, so this might be out of date. The manual says: "Produces a timestamp instance with the current time. Under sbcl, the new timestamp will be precise to the microsecond. Otherwise, the precision is limited to the second." 2016-08-26T23:37:44Z pareidolia: The manual is "imprecise" 2016-08-26T23:37:51Z rpg: may have been improved. 2016-08-26T23:38:17Z jasom: rpg: the docs are out-of-date. This is why I look in the source first. Ignore comments and docstrings too at first. 2016-08-26T23:38:34Z jasom: Comments are the least-tested part of any source file. 2016-08-26T23:39:14Z rpg started writing software manuals after I retired from making inflatable tanks to fool the Nazis. 2016-08-26T23:39:22Z jasom: haha 2016-08-26T23:39:25Z pareidolia: U wot m8? 2016-08-26T23:39:48Z jasom: rpg: btw, what do you think of adding my suggested lisp-source-file macro to uiop? 2016-08-26T23:40:32Z rpg: I actually just jammed it into my DSL interpreter. Was sure how to use it there; less sure in ASDF. 2016-08-26T23:41:07Z Fare: CLISP updated its ASDF to 3.1.7. Yay! 2016-08-26T23:41:42Z rpg: Fare: have they released again, or do you mean in git? 2016-08-26T23:41:43Z Fare: It (from 2.33) 2016-08-26T23:41:46Z Fare: hg 2016-08-26T23:41:50Z rpg: oh yeah, hg. 2016-08-26T23:41:52Z rpg: ugh. 2016-08-26T23:42:12Z Fare: and sds asked me about two logical-pathname bugs I reported. 2016-08-26T23:42:37Z rpg: I don't have any objection to hg, darcs, and bzr as such, but my brain only has room for less than or equal to a single arcane DVCS. 2016-08-26T23:42:39Z jasom: btw, after reading the asdf devel list, I appreciate that both Fare and rpg are working on it. I think your guys' use-cases and ideas are different enough that any solution that makes both of you happy will be good :) 2016-08-26T23:43:13Z boomer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-08-26T23:43:15Z Fare: jasom: nothing makes us both happy. It's endless frustration for both of us. 2016-08-26T23:43:32Z Fare: because the other idiot can't see what's obvious. 2016-08-26T23:43:34Z rpg: Fare and I have to settle for Pareto optimality! 2016-08-26T23:43:36Z rpg: ;-) 2016-08-26T23:43:52Z jasom: Fare: well I'm happy to reap the fruits of your frustration! 2016-08-26T23:43:57Z rpg: If we are lucky, we don't both confess and go to jail for 10 years. 2016-08-26T23:44:21Z rpg was just reading Economist article on John Nash 2016-08-26T23:44:38Z Fare: What is ASDF a Nash equilibrium for? 2016-08-26T23:44:59Z Fare: I'm impressed by our new contributor and his run-program patches. 2016-08-26T23:45:04Z Fare: I hope he keeps at it. 2016-08-26T23:45:09Z jasom: rpg's and Fare's conflicting ideas of which way asdf should go. 2016-08-26T23:45:24Z jasom: oh, while you're both here, what is the metric for whether or not a utility function should go in uiop? 2016-08-26T23:45:43Z jasom: obv. the new run-program patches aren't needed for asdf to function, but they are generally useful. 2016-08-26T23:45:46Z Fare: jasom: I wish I could stop having ideas about it and go on with life. 2016-08-26T23:45:57Z rpg: jasom: For a moment, you confused me after my last cracks -- I thought you meant a utility function as in decision theory! 2016-08-26T23:46:01Z Fare: jasom: (1) does asdf itself need it? 2016-08-26T23:46:04Z XachX_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-08-26T23:46:04Z mbrock quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-08-26T23:46:04Z mjl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-08-26T23:46:04Z makufiru quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-08-26T23:46:04Z danlentz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-08-26T23:46:04Z billstclair quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-08-26T23:46:31Z Fare: (2) is it a small addition to functions that uiop already has, that makes another library wholly obsolete due to all around better code? 2016-08-26T23:47:09Z Fare: (0) can it be written in pure lisp without requiring any dependency (whether in C or lisp, etc.) 2016-08-26T23:49:15Z asc232 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-08-26T23:50:48Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-08-26T23:51:21Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Hibernate, reboot, exeunt, etc.) 2016-08-26T23:57:01Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp